Islamic Invasions ! Hindus Persecutions !

[pizzalot]

Chandragupta Maurya , Grand Father of Ashoka , ended his life in self-starvation at Shravanabelagola, in present day Karnataka.

[pizzalot]

Chandragupta Maurya , Grand Father of Ashoka , ended his life in self-starvation at Shravanabelagola, in present day Karnataka.

Sorry, I meant to say Chandragupta Maurya , Grand Father of Ashoka , ended his life in self-starvation at Shravanabelagola, in present day Karnataka AS A JAIN.

[Surya]

Pizzalot,

I still don't know what "THE ELITES" is supposed to mean....:? Or even someone else, what does the "Elite" word supposed the represent in his post? :huh: Before we start argueing or concuring with you on your views, we need to know what it means. U keep using the term "Elite People" Who are you pointing towards?


If you say that he was a Hindu before adopting Budhism, that means you agree that "Hinduism" is nothing but "Varna" system.

No one is proposing that here for us to agree...

[Surya]

Look where all the our tax money goes, to Russians, Americans and Europeans to buy rockets,tanks,fighter planes and what not. While with all that money we could have built roads,schools and fed the millions living under poverty line.

First lets Eliminate the Threat of Pakistan, and then we can think weakening our Military, and War Power for the sake of building roads.

[pizzalot]

Look where all the our tax money goes, to Russians, Americans and Europeans to buy rockets,tanks,fighter planes and what not. While with all that money we could have built roads,schools and fed the millions living under poverty line.

First lets Eliminate the Threat of Pakistan, and then we can think weakening our Military, and War Power for the sake of building roads.

Pakistan occupied Kashmir when Kashmir was not a part of India.

China took away "our" land when we were wide "awake" in front of our own eyes. So let us attack China first. Such very thought itself scares you so much isn't it ? If you do that they will come back and this time take away Ayodhya, Mathura and Dwarka away. Sorry that is not their style. They will flatten the noses of Ram and Krishna and make it look like chinese and populate India with Chinese blood so everyone will look like them.

You just want to attack Pakistan because you know it is a very, very small country whose population is just about 15% of yours and you are very happy that you are the "big brother". You cannot win Pakistan even in cricket and so you want to eliminate them with your bull-strength. So much for your courage.

[pizzalot]

WHO ARE THE MONKEY FRIENDS OF RAM ?

This question is for all those who say Ramayana was a ture history and Ram really ruled Ayodhya. Who is Hanuman, Sugreeva and Bali ? Who are all those monkeys ? Were they really monkeys but able to stand-up and walk like Chimpancies ? They also spoke. So they could be actually humans ? So these are humans who spoke and were highly cultured, Hanuman is often described for his strength and intelligence. Who are these people who helped Ram get back Sita and win against Ravana but yet described as Monkeys with tail and hair all over the body ?

What kind of people are the Hindus (read Ram worhipers) to call the very same people who risked their lives as monkeys ?

Ram met these Monkeys while moving South of Ayodhya. My guess is it could be Maharashtra, the Kingdom of monkeys. That explains why Shiv Sena is so faithful to Ram. Is there any monkey friend in this thread to say "hello" to me ?

[Eelavar]

pizzalot,

I guess you are an anti-Hindu fanatic..

Why they describe them as Monkeys ?

Maybe because Humans are very similar to monkeys.. (Monkeys and humans have common ancestors)

What is pathetic to see is that you read it word by word..
Idiot.. You will never understand Hinduism and his use of symbolism..

Ganesh have an elephant head.. And what ?? Do you will believe it as true history ?? Hahaha, pathetic.. :lol:

Humans are not very different of animals..

Pizzalot, can i ask you what is your origin ?

[Eelavar]

pizzalot,

This thread is not destined to talk about Hinduism, but about the Genocide of Hindus.

[pizzalot]

pizzalot,
I guess you are an anti-Hindu fanatic..


Yes, I am a anti-(Hindu-Fanatic). Did it take you so long to know that ?



Why they describe them as Monkeys ?

Maybe because Humans are very similar to monkeys.. (Monkeys and humans have common ancestors)

What is pathetic to see is that you read it word by word..
Idiot.. You will never understand Hinduism and his use of symbolism..


So teach me how to "selectively" read.



Ganesh have an elephant head.. And what ?? Do you will believe it as true history ?? Hahaha, pathetic.. :lol:


Thanks for jumping to my side and acknowledging that they are not true stories. It better be that way. Can you tell the same to the people who are listening to the Hindu-hardliners telling them that it is all true and not a story ?



Humans are not very different of animals..

Then why Ram is not shown as an animal ?



Pizzalot, can i ask you what is your origin ?

Africa.

Do you want my caste, family and gothra too ?

Introduce yourself first.

[pizzalot]

pizzalot,
This thread is not destined to talk about Hinduism, but about the Genocide of Hindus.
Did you say that Eelavar ? Oh yes !!! You are consistent with the other fanatics having "selective" memories. There is a million line post from you on Hinduism from you but here you are saying we are not to discuss about Hinduism and only "Genocide of Hindus" !You should have told us that ONLY YOU can talk about Hinduism but not others. See a short abstract from your earlier post:


forgetting that Hinduism was not only a wonderful system of thought... unique spirituality....of the lasting principles of Hinduism.
.....Everything is valuable for jiva and there is nothing that it neglects, as each experience enriches the soul: sufferings ....This concept of reincarnation, ...Karma is another very important tenet of Hinduism ....

[crazy]

Good Lord
what, is this is an anti hindu tread? cant we just stick to the topic :roll:

[bis_mala]

[tscii:04c0323725]The title “Genocide of Hindus” in my view is quite wide and we should be able to talk about not only the numbers killed in each event if any, but also when, where, how, why and so forth. The last item : “why” is indeed very wide and that should provide us enough room to discuss the relative strengths and weaknesses of Hinduism and Hindus as causes in the topic “genocide”. We can also talk about the effects of these genocides on succeeding generations! “..of Hindus” , depending on the context, may also mean “by Hindus”. It can also be extended to Hindus killing themselves in addition to Hindus being killed by non-Hindus. In a proper study, you may even have to touch upon the definition of term “Hindus”, their origin and their –ism. It all depends on how a writer or speaker will treat the subject. “..of Hindus” is in the genitive case and therefore it may include “Genocide on Hindus” as well as “Genocide by Hindus”. Natural progression of the heading may go beyond the actual contemplation of the person who started the thread, the possibility of such contemplation being narrower than that of the other hubbers but such progression is not inherently wrong.

I am not suggesting any group has committed genocide on any other group now or in the past. I am just trying to say how the title of this thread can be treated by any scholar or student.

Genocide has been defined in UN Law. Killing in a war is not automatically a genocide. Can someone reproduce the UN definition so that our hubbers can use it as a guide in our discussion.[/tscii:04c0323725]

[bis_mala]

World History is full of narratives of past religious persecutions and consequent loss of lives. India had suffered more than its fair share of such violence inflicted on her from abroad, because foregin invaders harboured aspirations to convert Indians to their religion by force.

However, we cannot time-travel to the past and remedy the situation in any manner. So what good is it to discuss such past history? One thing good that can be done is to fortify India - by deleting the caste system completely from the face of India. Can this be acheived or attained? Other than for that purpose, discussion of the topic is quite unfruitful.

It has been said almost all the Muslims of South Asia are descendants of weaker elements of the population who had succumbed to forcible Islamic conversion. I do not think we should debate the question of genocide to the extent of raising hatred against other communities.

If a member of X community accuses Y community of past violence and genocide, then a member of Y community will of course answer back in some way. If the member of X community is not prepared to tolderate, all the more reason why we should not discuss such topics.

So many invasions and battles for the past 10,000 years. All claims of ethnic or blood purity can be bundled up and relegated to the corner. Delete your internal divisions and there won't be any more genocides inflicted on India from abroad.

[pizzalot]

[quote="bis_mala"][color=blue]
It has been said almost all the Muslims of South Asia are descendants of weaker elements of the population who had succumbed to forcible Islamic conversion.
[/quote="bis_mala"][color=blue]


True. 95% of the muslims in India are NOT the foreign invaders. But I do not agree with you in describing them as "converts". They were never a part of the "Hindu society" at all and it had been like that several thousand years. I would rather use the word "adoption" of Islam and not "convertion" to Islam.

If the same Islam had said a "black" cannot become a priest then it would have died long time back. It is a religion where poor and under-privileged or anyone can adopt it as their own. They can go and become "priest" very easily. In that way it is a very tolerant religion.

It is not a coincidence that the entire Africa and the under-developed countries are all Islamic. If someone tells me that they were Islamites first and that is why they are under-developed, I will laugh at their patheric ignorance.

On the other hand, tell me how a non-Hindu can convert to Hinduism. Simply they will create another caste for him marking his limits and boundaries in the society. There is no way he can convert and blend-in into the society.

The other day a ugly safron clad guy comes to me and begs me to dress-up (undress-up) like Ram and apply all that "blue die" for a small village level "Yatra" his party was organizing. Before that he had visited my house hundreds of times and asked me all sort of questions on my "origin". Just like Eelavar does in this thread. BS !

See how the Christian missionaries who come to help and embrace the SC and ST in Bihar are burnt alive. You are afraid of all other religions because they are going to somehow affect your status quo.

Actually you are not hating Islam or Christianity. You are hating the "SC and ST" people who you have hated for several thousand years. You are not able to tolerate them even if they get converted to other religions.

HINDUISM IS THE MOST INTOLERANT OF ALL RELIGIONS, pathetically, even today. Imagine how it should have been in those "glorious days".

[bis_mala]

[

HINDUISM IS THE MOST INTOLERANT OF ALL RELIGIONS, pathetically, even today. Imagine how it should have been in those "glorious days".


Why do you say so Pizzalot? Each religion has its points of flexibility and rigidities. If you are saying that it is intolerant because of the caste system, it has been pointed out that you do not have to believe in caste to be a Hindu. It is not an "article of faith". Internal Divisions may have pre-existed "Hinduism" and been adopted by it . As t0 its alleged stance against conversions out of it, these may be the acts of misguided individuals. There is no unanimity among Hindus to take such a stance against Christian missionary. On the other hand, Hindus too do not have the open licence to convert say in Saudi Arabia or even in Britain those inhabitants there to their religion.

Hindu temples had been attacked in Malaysia too.

Can you elaborate on your assertion pl.

[Eelavar]

[tscii:7617d9d52b]Pizza,
Please change your avatar...It is too much hypocrit and ironic.. :roll:


Then why Ram is not shown as an animal ?

Tell me first what is human and what is animal..

Crazy,

Pizzalot is here to prove us how some people are intolerant.
They don't respect others religion. I guess that those who did this genocide were exactly like Pizzalot..
They insult without understanding..
It is a great mistake..:roll:

bis_mala wrote


The title “Genocide of Hindus” in my view is quite wide and we should be able to talk about not only the numbers killed in each event if any, but also when, where, how, why and so forth. The last item : “why” is indeed very wide and that should provide us enough room to discuss the relative strengths and weaknesses of Hinduism and Hindus as causes in the topic “genocide”.

Why this genocide ?? Because some people are very intolerant..They don't respect others faith, they threat them of ignorant and idiot.. Only their religion is right and must be practized..
Is it not true Pizzalot ??... :roll:

Bismala , what is the Muslims Holy war ??

A war is never holy but for Muslims it is.. So how do you understand their religious war ?

Such wars are always organised against the Non-Muslims, why ?

Pizzalot,

I can understand your hate of the actual caste system.. I too hate this fake system..

But what you must know and understand it is the fact that at the start , the caste system was a wonderful socio-economic system..

But invaders and invasions corrupted it to the actual inhuman system...
It is not for that you must hate Hinduism. Its philosophy is big as an ocean.
I have remarked that your main problem is the understanding of this system.

Pizzalot finally i find you very hilarious.. You talk about Hindus intolerance but the first to be intolerant here is YOU.

You are tunneled to critize everything related to Hinduism..You even claim that Hindus are the most intolerant etc.

If they were so intolerant say me why they allowed west and east bengal creation ?....You just refuse to see the reality.

If they were so intolerant why so much religions born in India ???

Ok let admit that Buddhism came first Hinduism as claimed by you, so why the first Buddhist is Siddharta Gautama (~500 B.C) ??
So before him nobody inhabited India ?? :lol: :lol: :lol:

Pizzalot, paste and copying hateful web site will not help you to see the Light coming from Him.. :wink:

It looks like that America learned you to hate our anciants, well...
Be happy and enjoy your materialist life in your Ferrari and your Macdonald's in your hand

Thanks.. :arrow:

P.S : When i asked your origin i just wanted to know if you was an Indian or not, but sorry if it offended you.
(My origin is not Africa...)[/tscii:7617d9d52b]

[Hulkster]

First of all...i would like to make it clear that due to humans identifying themselves as different "species" with religion..they get the urge to wipe out one and another and establish themselves as the primary force. The more we identify ourselves as hindu muslim christian, the more we separate ourselves from the actual group known as homosapiens or humans. Why cant well see that regardless of race or religion all have two ears one nose one mouth a body and all bleed red? If we had not followed the setting of our forefathers and made our mind more broader by trying to find out ways of living harmoniously and treated everyone as our own brother and sister instead of looking at them differently we might have a solution.

First of all humans have made many mistakes like establishing religion as a stronghold amongst themselves instead of just identifying themselves as humans. If we are supposed to be identified as hindus muslims christians..how come the heart still sees another woman/man of a different religion in love instead of the own religion...why do we care and feel for a person undergoing suffering and torture despite not being of our own religion? These are questions we must ask ourselves. GOD created us this way to care for others like our own brothers and sisters and also love our lifepartner regardless of how she looks like and who she is identified from. But still we refer to religions as identification for marriages love and other mandatory needs. Ask yourselves...is the way GOD created us right or the way we are identified as right?...Surely GOD is correct and if we still insist religion is the identification...this violence will continue till GOD has to come down and unite us as humans once again..:(

[Eelavar]

Pizzalot,

Ok i did a mistake saying you to don't speak about Hinduism.

What i tried to say is that you must not insult it because you havent understood it. You can criticize it but in this case you must open a new thread, thanks.

Pizzalot and what about the other genocides ?

Europeans never killed American Indians?
Chineses never killed Tibeteans ?
Nazis never killed Jews ?
Stalin never killed his people ?
Turkishes never killed Armenians ?

SO WHY DON'T YOU ACCEPT THIS GENOCIDE ??????

DON'T NEGLECT IT !!!!! :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :!: :!: :!: :!: :!: :!:

[pizzalot]

[

HINDUISM IS THE MOST INTOLERANT OF ALL RELIGIONS, pathetically, even today. Imagine how it should have been in those "glorious days".

Why do you say so Pizzalot? Each religion has its points of flexibility and rigidities. If you are saying that it is intolerant because of the caste system, it has been pointed out that you do not have to believe in caste to be a Hindu. It is not an "article of faith". Internal Divisions may have pre-existed "Hinduism" and been adopted by it . As t0 its alleged stamce againstt conversions out of it, these may be the acts of misguided individuals. There is no unanimity among Hindus to take such a stance against Christian missionary. On the other hand, Hindus too do not have the open licence to convert say in Saudi Arabia or even in Britain those inhabitants there to their religion.

Hindu temples had been attacked in Malaysia too.

Can you elaborate on your assertion pl.

Other religions have a single code of conduct for all its members. So atleast within the religion there is tolerance. Hinduism is in-tolerant even within its members. The Dharma is very different for a man, woman, Kshatriya , Brahmin or Vyshya. There is a high-intolerance if anyone breaches this code.

Even within caste and even within families, the tolerance is very low. Brahmins have more in-tolerance for any breach of conduct by the men and women of even their own caste. It will be the father inflicting wounds on his daughter or the Husband demanding his wife "agni pariksha or Jal Parishuth" and so on. (So unfortunate that all women do not have the power of Sita to come out of the fire-pyre alive).

Tell me what is the "article of faith" of Hindus and what is its use from a practical point of view ?

How much the eipcs, scriptures, puranas etc of Hinduism, have really helped frame the Hindu Laws in India ? The epics, gospels etc I believe have this "article of faith" central to in them. So we should be able to turn them into practical laws and expect evey Hindu to abide by it.

We know for sure we could not base our Constitution upon it. But how much the Hindu Laws itself have been derived from Hindu scriptures ? If the current Hindu Law is nothing to do with Ramayana or Mahabharatha or any Purana or "article of faith" then what use have we got reading and spending so much time on them ?

We do not want people to receive lessons and morals which will contradict the Hindu Law itself. On the other-hand is it practically possible to base the Hindu Law on this "article of faith" ? I am not saying the entire legal system should conform to the article of faith of Hinduism. I am just talking about the Sections in the Hindu Law which is meant for Hindus.

I know several places where the Gods and Gospels contradict the Hindu Law. For example, MonoGyny or "one woman to one woman marriage". Polygyny is illegal in Hindu Law. Several Gods are in violation to law even according to us, the Hindus. And so are several famous characters in the epics. It is unlawful to venerate someone who has, in his act and deed, is in violation to law.

There are so many examples I can pick-up, which makes me feel whether the Hindu Laws have anything to do with our scriptures. Others have to tell me if I am wrong.

On the contrary Qoran and Bible have been successfuly used and based word by word as Law in several countries.

The minimal requirement of any religious practice is that it should conform to the Legal Laws of its ownpeople. Otherwise we are not only wasting our time teaching and learning them, but actually inducing them to violate the law of the land.

So what use have we got of these scriptures, epics and morals if all they are doing is to prompt us to violate the law ?

[crazy]

HINDUISM IS THE MOST INTOLERANT OF ALL RELIGIONS, pathetically, even today. Imagine how it should have been in those "glorious days".


:roll: really?
eelavar: :)

[bis_mala]

[tscii:b12c3fbb10]
Other religions have a single code of conduct for all its members. So atleast within the religion there is tolerance.

This, Pizzalot, does not hold water. Christianity has many denominations and each denomination has its own codes of conduct or rules for adherents. The rules for Sunni Muslims are different from those for Shia Muslims. They have separated as they could not agree on a single code for themselves. Mahayana Buddhism has rules which are different from those of Hinayana Buddism.

The intolerance to a code results in excommunication by the Pope of the offending member in the case of Catholicism who have codes different of course from those of the Pentecost Church!! (for example). The Muslims issue death warrants (fatwah) against their own members. You see, the intolerance in these religions are INSTITUTIONALISED AND RIGOROUSLY ENFORCED. There is no such promulgation or enforcement in Hinduism!! Not institutionalized in Hinduism: there may be “pressure” applied by peers and family members. No fatwahs. No excommunications, which is why other religions are free to operate in India and attract Hindus into their fold. The bill against forced conversions was by a duly constituted government in TN and not by a religious authority like the Ayatolah in Iran!! Consequently, Hindus have lost many of their members to other religions in recent times. That Anti-conversion law is now repealed.

Summarizing this point for you: There is no official, institutionalized, organized intolerance practised in Hinduism. Agree?

Will continue….
[/tscii:b12c3fbb10]

[crazy]

[tscii:c23de9798f]
Other religions have a single code of conduct for all its members. So atleast within the religion there is tolerance.

This, Pizzalot, does not hold water. Christianity has many denominations and each denomination has its own codes of conduct or rules for adherents. The rules for Sunni Muslims are different from those for Shia Muslims. They have separated as they could not agree on a single code for themselves. Mahayana Buddhism has rules which are different from those of Hinayana Buddism.

The intolerance to a code results in excommunication by the Pope of the offending member in the case of Catholicism who have codes different of course from those of the Pentecost Church!! (for example). The Muslims issue death warrants (fatwah) against their own members. You see, the intolerance in these religions are INSTITUTIONALISED AND RIGOURSLY ENFORCED. There is no such promulgation or enforcement in Hinduism!! Not institutionalized in Hinduism: there may be “pressure” applied by peers and family members. No fatwahs. No excommunications, which is why other religions are free to operate in India and attract Hindus into their fold. The bill against forced conversions was by a duly constituted government in TN and not by a religious authority like the Ayatolah in Iran!! Consequently, Hindus have lost many of their members to other religions in recent times. That Anti-conversion law is now repealed.

Summarizing this point for you: There is no official, institutionalized, organized intolerance practised in Hinduism. Agree?

Will continue….
[/tscii:c23de9798f]

well said :thumbsup:

[Eelavar]

On the contrary Qoran and Bible have been successfuly used and based word by word as Law in several countries.

I CANNOT AGREE THIS RUBBISH.

It seems you don't know who are Talibans..
They don't respect women.
They can have how many women they want..

In Bible it is written to don't steal, how many Christians stolen and converted America ,India, Africa and Asia ??....

In Bible it is written to don't kill, who are the crusaders ??

In Quoran it is said that killing is not good, but why Muslims do a holy war ?? Is it not hypocritical ??

Pizzalot i can say and AFFIRM you that percentage of Hindus couple who divorce is SO MUCH LESSER than Christians and Muslims.

Why ??
Is it not good or do you think it is bad ??

You are AN IGNORANT.

Eat your pizza in front of your television !!

[Eelavar]

Bismala, well said mate :wink:

THERE IS NO DOGMA IN HINDUISM !!!!!

Don't you know that Pizza ??

[bis_mala]

[tscii:e4e50ec111]
How much the eipcs, scriptures, puranas etc of Hinduism, have really helped frame the Hindu Laws in India ? The epics, gospels etc I believe have this "article of faith" central to in them. So we should be able to turn them into practical laws and expect evey Hindu to abide by it.


THANK YOU FRIENDS.

Mr Pizzalot,

I have not taken Hindu Law but there is subject in legal studies by that name. It is one of the 52 – 60 law subjects you can study for your BL or LLB. Are you referring to this subject? (Optional Subject)
I do not know how much of puranas, scriptures etc., went into this “Hindu Law”. I do not think India has a Hindu Legal Code (specially enacted) , for I have not come across any in my U law library in Malaysia. Neither in the Inns of Court library in England. I do not know whether you are from the legal background but collection of relevant judicial precedents and writings of eminent Hindu jurists can be sources of Hindu Law and these can be used in dispute-settlement by the courts of law.
I suggest you visit your nearest library or law bookshops for the materials you are seeking. But I know that some “rules” from the scriptures have been applied to cases before them by the Indian courts. Once applied in that manner, the judgements
will be made available in the AIR or BLR or other series. I cannot set out to do a research in this area. But why do you say that every Hindu must abide by these “laws” ? Why do you think that these laws are not being applied now by the Courts in India where they are applicable? Please let us know your interest.
[/tscii:e4e50ec111]

[dsath]

HINDUISM IS THE MOST INTOLERANT OF ALL RELIGIONS, pathetically, even today. Imagine how it should have been in those "glorious days".
I think that statement cannot be accepted at face value. I think tolerance is something based on the geographical area or more specifically culture rather than religion.
For example the Islam practiced by the Egyptians is very different to that practiced by Iranians. Its a result of basic cultural differences. The same is true of Hinduism as well. There are differences in the way it is practiced in different parts of India. So blaming one religion, any religion is unfair.

[dsath]

[tscii:f340b244d2]

Summarizing this point for you: There is no official, institutionalized, organized intolerance practised in Hinduism. Agree?

Will continue….

Yes mala, do agree with this. But don't know how long this statement will remain true, as anyone can see efforts are on to make this statement false by a section in India.

Pls continue, your words are as clear as ever. :)[/tscii:f340b244d2]

[bis_mala]

[tscii:6e22807bc7]
]We know for sure we could not base our Constitution upon it. But how much the Hindu Laws itself have been derived from Hindu scriptures ? If the current Hindu Law is nothing to do with Ramayana or Mahabharatha or any Purana or "article of faith" then what use have we got reading and spending so much time on them ?

Well, how would you frame a Hindu legal provision or a Christian legal provision or an Islamic legal provision? You can write into the constitution a provision like this:
1. No Speaker of the Parliament shall commence any parliamentary proceeding without first having conducted a full puuja presided over by a brahmaNa priest in accordance with the Hindu scriptures at least one hour before any such proceeding is scheduled to commence.
In another section of the constitution, you can include a declaratory provision that the Hindu religion shall be the state religion for the Republic of India including the state of Kashmir!!
After writing all such provisions, you still have to define the rights, duties, responsibilities, functions, etc of the various organs of the state and its officers, whether elected or otherwise. Many provisions must necessarily be secular and no religious content can be logically induced into them. It is the success or failure of the secular provisions that will determine the well-being and survival of the state!! Religious provisions will just “decorate” the constitution if anything. Pujaaris can be happy with them, that is all. The same goes for any other religion.
How and to what extent can a constitution be “religionised”? You have to tell us pizzalot!!
Have you read the Pakistani constitution?
Suggest to them to rename the “President” as “Chief Caliph”!
The constitution can then become “more Islamized”.

Reading Ramayana and Puranas: You and I cannot dictate to others what they should do. If you do not want to read it, well and good. If someone else wants to read them, so be it!! What is wrong is reading Ramayana? Ramayana deifies Rama the king as an incarnation just like the Quaran exalted Muhamad as a prophet. Ultimately, it is what you believe. We cannot dictate to people what to believe. When you are unable to tell X what he should believe, why should you tell Y what Y should believe? Or what to read?


Since you will agree God is almighty, there is nothing he cannot do, why can’t he come down as Rama? Is God limited or restricted in some way?

In summary, I would say: they have their freedom in which you and I cannot interfere.
[/tscii:6e22807bc7]

[dsath]

If they were so intolerant say me why they allowed west and east bengal creation ?....You just refuse to see the reality.

Politics is often confused with religion. In my opinion, politics should stay clear of religion and vice versa. If not then, one will end up in a mess what India-Pakistan-Bangladesh is now.
Partition was a result of pure politics played by the 'leaders' of those times. A very simplified version would be - Jinnah wanted what was considered a huge share of power. The Congress failed to accommodate him,so he played the religious card and the whole of Congress fell for that. And no one has risen from that still now.



If they were so intolerant why so much religions born in India ???

The names of what we understand as 'Religion' was generally given by non-Indian natives. I think it is generally accepted that the Persians (if i am not right, then some other non-Indian) gave the name Hinduism and the same is the case with Buddhism. The name was given by outsiders. So India is a birth place of many movements which later evolved into religions.

[bis_mala]

[tscii:4298834b95]
I know several places where the Gods and Gospels contradict the Hindu Law.

Law is made for human beings to comply. Laws made by humans are not applicable to Gods and Goddesses!! How can any human make laws for Gods and Goddesses? As I have already told you in an earlier post, the sources of Hindu Law are : judicial pronouncements in past court cases as well as writings of eminent Hindu jurists. They get their materials from the Hindu books such as Vedas. Puranas etc., etc., The rules extracted from them are for human compliance. You know well that you cannot indict a God or Goddess.

Just like God or Allah causes or permits earthquakes and tsunamis. If human beings caused them, you can indict them in court for genocide. You cannot touch God or Allah!! – even though causing a tsunami is a great offence and a crime against humanity!! Goddess marrying many times is a much lesser crime (if you want to call it that ) than causing a tsunami. Reason: if Goddess married many times, no human dies in consequence as in earthquake or tsunami. I know of a god-man who married 9 life partners so why not a Goddess?

Now you can also look at it in another way. Goddess marrying many times causes no misery or financial problems. But humans marry many times will increase the woes of the world. So Hindu laws are for humans and not for celestial beings.
Ok?

YOUR BASIC FAULT: YOU THOUGHT HUMAN LAWS APPLY TO GODS AND GODDESSES WHEN THEY DO NOT EVEN APPLY TO PROPHETS WHO ARE HUMAN BEINGS!!
Now pizzalot, I do not know what is your religious persuasion. Do not tell me. But you can judge the issue according to your own persuasion. In case you did not believe in any god or goddess, then better still. Since gods and goddesses do not exist for you, there is automatically no conflict or contradiction whatsoever. How can anything contradict with something non-existent.

So, no case at all however you look at it!!

[/tscii:4298834b95]

[dsath]

For example, MonoGyny or "one woman to one woman marriage". Polygyny is illegal in Hindu Law. Several Gods are in violation to law even according to us, the Hindus. And so are several famous characters in the epics. It is unlawful to venerate someone who has, in his act and deed, is in violation to law.

Polygamy is illegal according to Indian law, not Hindu law. Before the English came, polygamy was in vogue in the community depending on one's wealth. Monogamy was a very Christian thing. When the constitution was made it made polygamy illegal. As u have pointed in one of your previous posts, our constitution is a copy of the British constitution (Victorian in flavour).
Hindiusm is extremely rigid in some aspects (caste system) and wonderfully flexible in other aspects (accepting monogamy, even though it was an integral part of the system). Its like a spectrum.

Your views project a different dimension and it would be easier for the reader if you stream them please.

[Surya]

I think it's safe to assume Pizza = Anti-Hindu Fanatic! :lol2: What else could one expect from him? :huh:

Eelavar,
:clap: :D

[johntony]

[tscii:7307f2deac]
Other religions have a single code of conduct for all its members. So atleast within the religion there is tolerance.

This, Pizzalot, does not hold water. Christianity has many denominations and each denomination has its own codes of conduct or rules for adherents. The rules for Sunni Muslims are different from those for Shia Muslims. They have separated as they could not agree on a single code for themselves. Mahayana Buddhism has rules which are different from those of Hinayana Buddism.

The intolerance to a code results in excommunication by the Pope of the offending member in the case of Catholicism who have codes different of course from those of the Pentecost Church!! (for example). The Muslims issue death warrants (fatwah) against their own members. You see, the intolerance in these religions are INSTITUTIONALISED AND RIGOURSLY ENFORCED. There is no such promulgation or enforcement in Hinduism!! Not institutionalized in Hinduism: there may be “pressure” applied by peers and family members. No fatwahs. No excommunications, which is why other religions are free to operate in India and attract Hindus into their fold. The bill against forced conversions was by a duly constituted government in TN and not by a religious authority like the Ayatolah in Iran!! Consequently, Hindus have lost many of their members to other religions in recent times. That Anti-conversion law is now repealed.

Summarizing this point for you: There is no official, institutionalized, organized intolerance practised in Hinduism. Agree?

Will continue….
[/tscii:7307f2deac]

Dear bis_mala

Excellent.

[johntony]

[tscii:fd691939ad]
I know several places where the Gods and Gospels contradict the Hindu Law.


In case you did not believe in any god or goddess, then better still. Since gods and goddesses do not exist for you, there is automatically no conflict or contradiction whatsoever. How can anything contradict with something non-existent.

So, no case at all however you look at it!!

[/tscii:fd691939ad]

Very Good

[johntony]

dear pizza

you still belives in hindu religion, thats why u have chosen "The Hindu Lord Shiva" in your avatar.

cheers

[pizzalot]

dear pizza

you still belives in hindu religion, thats why u have chosen "The Hindu Lord Shiva" in your avatar.

cheers

Yes I am. But not much to cheer about. I rather wanna be a "Hindu reformer" rather than a "Hindu". I know NO OTHER RELIGION better than Hinduism. All the good and bad of it.

You can see a glass half-full or half-empty. I choose the second choice because I wish it was "full". Many are complacent with the way it is half-full. If Vivekananda did not ask so much questions to his Guru (and may I presume your Guru too looking at your avatar ?) the West would never have known anything about Hinduism. I also feel just one Vivekananda is not enough for 100 years. I want everyone you, me, Mala (that is what your name is bis_mala ?), Surya, Eelavar and everyone in this world to question, doubt, not-to-agree etc etc about what you hear, what you read and even what you believe in every step of life. He did not exempt even himself. He understood and explained Hinduism with his knowledge of science and logic. Now science has grown so much and we need to start thinking and evaluating our religion based on it.

Just remember what is true today can be proved false tomorrow.

What was written or said 1000 years before WILL NOT BE VALID FOR TODAY. "Change" is the only "permanence" in this Universe. Only a small portion of it will be true, if ever.

After something changes it is no more the same thing.

Nothing to do with the subject of Hindu Genocide. Since you exclaimed, I just wanted to confirm I AM A HINDU.

That must not make you or anyone here believe I am just talking non-sense and wasting your time. Amidst sycophantism, I am a critique. You can see me that way.

[pizzalot]

[tscii:f7864478a0]
How much the eipcs, scriptures, puranas etc of Hinduism, have really helped frame the Hindu Laws in India ? The epics, gospels etc I believe have this "article of faith" central to in them. So we should be able to turn them into practical laws and expect evey Hindu to abide by it.


THANK YOU FRIENDS.

Mr Pizzalot,

I have not taken Hindu Law but there is subject in legal studies by that name. It is one of the 52 – 60 law subjects you can study for your BL or LLB. Are you referring to this subject? (Optional Subject)
I do not know how much of puranas, scriptures etc., went into this “Hindu Law”. I do not think India has a Hindu Legal Code (specially enacted) , for I have not come across any in my U law library in Malaysia. Neither in the Inns of Court library in England. I do not know whether you are from the legal background but collection of relevant judicial precedents and writings of eminent Hindu jurists can be sources of Hindu Law and these can be used in dispute-settlement by the courts of law.
I suggest you visit your nearest library or law bookshops for the materials you are seeking. But I know that some “rules” from the scriptures have been applied to cases before them by the Indian courts. Once applied in that manner, the judgements
will be made available in the AIR or BLR or other series. I cannot set out to do a research in this area. But why do you say that every Hindu must abide by these “laws” ? Why do you think that these laws are not being applied now by the Courts in India where they are applicable? Please let us know your interest.
[/tscii:f7864478a0]

I appreciate your arguments Mala. Surely you must be a good attorney.

But there IS the Hindu Law which is applicable only to Hindus.

I do not blame you , for you might have surely read it as a part of your curriculum if you were in India.

Irnoically, it was the British who enacted the Hindu Laws and they were strictly based on our scriptures. They had to scrap it out because it did not "fit" the Hindus.

The Hindu Laws were replaced by the Anglo Hindu Law upon which the current Hindu Law is based. This is for your reference.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindu_law

And yes, every Hindu in India has to abide by that law.

[pizzalot]

Bismala, well said mate :wink:

THERE IS NO DOGMA IN HINDUISM !!!!!

Don't you know that Pizza ??

Yes. Because it is a Anglo-Hindu Law that is enacted. Do you want me to elaborate the dogma of our scriptures ? Do you want me to elaborate about the acts that are punishable with death sentences based upon the pure and original Hindu Law ? You will not become angry but will only laugh at "their" ignorance.

[pizzalot]

The names of what we understand as 'Religion' was generally given by non-Indian natives. I think it is generally accepted that the Persians (if i am not right, then some other non-Indian) gave the name Hinduism and the same is the case with Buddhism. The name was given by outsiders. So India is a birth place of many movements which later evolved into religions.

Buddha from Budhi or wisdom. It is Indian if you agree Sanskrit is Indian. It is not if you say it is a Indo-European language ("Indo" but basically a European language).

I do not want to contend on this issue and am not going to build any case on this issue anyway.

[pizzalot]

Polygamy is illegal according to Indian law, not Hindu law..
No it is violant only according to Hindu Law(Anglo-Hindu Law) which is applicable to only Hindus. It is is dream of the rightists that this law be repealed to the original Hindu Law based upon our scriptures given by our great saints.

Here I want you, ladies, to support me.



Before the English came, polygamy was in vogue in the community depending on one's wealth.
[/quote="dsath"]

[quote="dsath"]
Monogamy was a very Christian thing.
Not justa Christian thing. It is a very civilized thing[/quote="dsath"]

Ladies, please support me here.
[quote="dsath"]
When the constitution was made it made polygamy illegal.
[/quote="dsath"]

No. It was made illegal even before Indian Constitution was born.
[quote="dsath"]

As u have pointed in one of your previous posts, our constitution is a copy of the British constitution (Victorian in flavour).
Hindiusm is extremely rigid in some aspects (caste system) and wonderfully flexible in other aspects (accepting monogamy, even though it was an integral part of the system). Its like a spectrum.
[quote="dsath"]
The Original Hindu Laws were not flexible. That is the reason it died.
[quote=dsath]
Your views project a different dimension and it would be easier for the reader if you stream them please.

With so little time, so much of thoughts and very slow typing speed makes me feel like a criple on posts. :(

[pizzalot]

I think it's safe to assume Pizza = Anti-Hindu Fanatic! :lol2: What else could one expect from him? :huh:

Eelavar,
:clap: :D

If I were a anti-Hindu fanatic, I will not waste my time here. I will have rather gone to Muslim or Christian forums.

I am just a anti Hindu-Fanatic. Do you want me to say that one thousand more times ?

[pizzalot]

[quote="bis_mala"]
Law is made for human beings to comply. Laws made by humans are not applicable to Gods and Goddesses!! How can any human make laws for Gods and Goddesses?
[/quote="bis_mala"]
It is central to both Vaishnavites and Shaivites that God took their avatars in Human form only to show the way to live for the man kind.

[quote="bis_mala"]
Goddess marrying many times ...
[/quote="bis_mala"]
[quote="bis_mala"]
Only the Gods could have several wives. Not even the Goddess can marry or re-marry.
[/quote="bis_mala"]

[quote="bis_mala"]
So Hindu laws are for humans and not for celestial beings.
Ok?
[/quote="bis_mala"]
Nope. Hindu Laws or its ante-cedant Vedic Laws were applicable to Humans and were practiced devotedly. According to Manu-smirti, no case can be registered on men even if they killed his wife, animals or sudras as long as he was the owner of these beings.

[quote="bis_mala"]
YOUR BASIC FAULT: YOU THOUGHT HUMAN LAWS APPLY TO GODS AND GODDESSES WHEN THEY DO NOT EVEN APPLY TO PROPHETS WHO ARE HUMAN BEINGS!!
[/quote="bis_mala"]

I do not think it is my fault. I think it is my strength to have the ability to think that everyone be it the King, God or Shankaracharya to be subjected by the same law especially when it is said to be given by God himself. If it is wrong, I will, to my strength, however weak l might be, will attempt to bring the offender to the Law for punishment.

I will not be at fault to even expect that if God was a gentleman, he himself will surrender. Like Krishna does in Mahabharatha, for every offense (offense according to Manu-Smirti) that he commits.

In Shivitism, a poet calls Shiva a bluff even after knowing it is Shiva himself.

Now tell me if the Gods fall within the Law or not ?

[pizzalot]

[tscii:a71a29ff0f]
Other religions have a single code of conduct for all its members. So atleast within the religion there is tolerance.

This, Pizzalot, does not hold water. Christianity has many denominations and each denomination has its own codes of conduct or rules for adherents. The rules for Sunni Muslims are different from those for Shia Muslims. They have separated as they could not agree on a single code for themselves. Mahayana Buddhism has rules which are different from those of Hinayana Buddism.

The intolerance to a code results in excommunication by the Pope of the offending member in the case of Catholicism who have codes different of course from those of the Pentecost Church!! (for example). The Muslims issue death warrants (fatwah) against their own members. You see, the intolerance in these religions are INSTITUTIONALISED AND RIGOROUSLY ENFORCED. There is no such promulgation or enforcement in Hinduism!! Not institutionalized in Hinduism: there may be “pressure” applied by peers and family members. No fatwahs. No excommunications, which is why other religions are free to operate in India and attract Hindus into their fold. The bill against forced conversions was by a duly constituted government in TN and not by a religious authority like the Ayatolah in Iran!! Consequently, Hindus have lost many of their members to other religions in recent times. That Anti-conversion law is now repealed.

Summarizing this point for you: There is no official, institutionalized, organized intolerance practised in Hinduism. Agree?
[/tscii:a71a29ff0f]

No, again. There WAS official, institutionalized, organized intolerance practiced in the Hindu society. What law do you think the Kings followed in the courts ? It was strict Manu-Smirti.

"Sati" is just ONE such example. It looked barbaric EVEN FOR THE MUSLIM INVADERS but not the in-laws of the lady burnt. Muslim invaders, who come with a culture of marrying the wives of the defeated, could never understand why the Hindus did that to their own women.

Even during Moghul/Muslim rule this was practiced which is against the Islamic Laws. Does this show the "spiritual" Hindu's self-rule ?

The system was in practice until the Christian Governor General Of India, Sir Warren Hastings banned the practice. And when he did it, he was faced with bitter opposition, to a scale you can never imagine or understand today. All by Brahmins.

[Badri]

Pizzalot is right, although perhaps the example of the Sati maynot quite be the best one.

However, ostracism and a sort of excommunication by the community was practiced quite often to anyone who violated or transgressed the rules.

Has anyone seen the movie Samskar by Girish Karnad? It was a representation of the true state of society till very recently, when a corpse is left untouched because the dead man had lost his caste and no one was to perform the funeral rites to the body. I think the book was written by UR Ananthamurthy and was adapted to the screen by Karnad. Powerful piece, which tells us of the foolish extremes to which "Hindus" were willing to go to excommunicate a neighbour!

[crazy]

Pizzalot just one question to u
what r u really trying to tell us here?

[Badri]

This, I think, if I may answer for Pizzalot


I want everyone you, me, Mala (that is what your name is bis_mala ?), Surya, Eelavar and everyone in this world to question, doubt, not-to-agree etc etc about what you hear, what you read and even what you believe in every step of life.

Or to put it in the immortal words of Thiruvalluvar,

Epporul yaar yaar vai kaetpinum
Apporul Meiporul kaanbadharivu

[crazy]

WELL if thats what he wanted us to do.............. :roll: ok!
but why did he put all those negative stuffs about Hinduism and dogmas and intolerant religion etc etc?
what was he trying to tell / teach us?
i know there is good and bad in our religion, but i wont agree what pizzalot saying...........

[Badri]

Well, I guess he'd be the best person to answer you crazy, but methinks he adopted that method of waking people up by a few really shocking truths.

By his own confession, he is a Hindu, and what he is opposed to is not the religion but only fanaticism.

Perhaps when he comes back again, he might be able to tell whether I am right or wrong in my evaluation of him and his methods.

But personally, I feel the sad state of our religion - any religion, for that matter - is only because of fanatics who refuse to use their brains to understand truths and instead propagate selfish beliefs without rationale.

In that sense, I find myself supporting pizzalot's views, and it has nothing to do with my liking pizzas! :)

[crazy]

Badri :lol:

[dsath]

No, again. There WAS official, institutionalized, organized intolerance practiced in the Hindu society. What law do you think the Kings followed in the courts ? It was strict Manu-Smirti.

I didn't know that. My understanding till date was that, when the English came and saw that there was no book of rules to be followed, they started digging out for some old rule books which might be acceptable to Indian society in general. Several people were commissioned for this task and lots of books were analyzed before settling for Manu-Smriti. Please correct me if i am wrong here.


"Sati" is just ONE such example. It looked barbaric EVEN FOR THE MUSLIM INVADERS but not the in-laws of the lady burnt. Muslim invaders, who come with a culture of marrying the wives of the defeated, could never understand why the Hindus did that to their own women.

Well practicing Sati may be equated to Hinduism but, the reverse is not true. To my knowledge Sati was not common in Southern India. It is a cultural thing rather than religious. There are lots of cultural aspects which get tagged as religious.



Even during Moghul/Muslim rule this was practiced which is against the Islamic Laws. Does this show the "spiritual" Hindu's self-rule ?
There is a fine line between rule and custom followed by society. This was custom (an evil one) not rule. Again do correct me if i am wrong. Is it coded in Manu Smirti abt Sati? I haven't read the book, just some translations mostly related to the caste system.
Its easier to change rules rather than customs. No wonder there is a lot of opposition to changes in customs, society follows.

[johntony]

You can see a glass half-full or half-empty. I choose the second choice because I wish it was "full". Many are complacent with the way it is half-full. If Vivekananda did not ask so much questions to his Guru (and may I presume your Guru too looking at your avatar ?) the West would never have known anything about Hinduism. I also feel just one Vivekananda is not enough for 100 years. I want everyone you, me, Mala (that is what your name is bis_mala ?), Surya, Eelavar and everyone in this world to question, doubt, not-to-agree etc etc about what you hear, what you read and even what you believe in every step of life. He did not exempt even himself. He understood and explained Hinduism with his knowledge of science and logic. Now science has grown so much and we need to start thinking and evaluating our religion based on it.

The current Faces of the todays hindu religion is not The original face of The hindu (The Sanatan Dharma) Religion. There are various impurites, opinions, propagandas, & deviations is found now a days in the devotees & in ancient holy books (or in the whole hindu religion).
So i not wonder about your critics on todays hindu religion,
its common if we think scientifically & logically.
I belive that In order to keep good things always good and to be them more good , criticism is must.

sant tulsidas says "many people wants to follow religion right from there, where their sefishness satisfies."
Thats why Many pandits (not all) had modified the original veda-purans according to fulfill there social needs. But there are still good literature mainly written by sant kabir, Tulsidas, swami vivekanad, Ram-Krisna Paramhansa, Gurunanak deva, and more,by reading them my brain elightened.



Just remember what is true today can be proved false tomorrow.
What was written or said 1000 years before WILL NOT BE VALID FOR TODAY. "Change" is the only "permanence" in this Universe. Only a small portion of it will be true, if ever.
After something changes it is no more the same thing.


In what sense u write it, i dont understand.
By the way according to my guru (in my avatar) the rules and regulations described in vedas & purans are always remains unchangeable to any region & to any time in the universe & it always applicable on all species in the earth & also on all gods & godessess.

following is an example:

If telling a lie is a sin, then it means it is always a sin in all the regions & in all the time ( past, present, future) of the universe.

To Be Contd.

[johntony]

dear pizza
i am very glad, and impressed by your scientific attitude & logical ability. please can u tell me what u have plan to reform The hindu Religion.

cheers

[bis_mala]

//I
appreciate your arguments Mala. Surely you must be a good attorney.

But there IS the Hindu Law which is applicable only to Hindus.

I do not blame you , for you might have surely read it as a part of your curriculum if you were in India.

Irnoically, it was the British who enacted the Hindu Laws and they were strictly based on our scriptures. They had to scrap it out because it did not "fit" the Hindus.

The Hindu Laws were replaced by the Anglo Hindu Law upon which the current Hindu Law is based. This is for your reference.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindu_law

And yes, every Hindu in India has to abide by that law.//

Mr Pizzalot, you need not emphasize that there IS a Hindu Law when I have already said in my post that it is a law subject but optional for students ( in the U where I graduated). I told you I did not take this optional subject, if you read my post carefully. I do not know about universities in India with regard to the curriculum (whether it is compulsory or optional). You asked how much of the Hindu materials such as puranaas etc went into the law; I have referred you to the library or law book shops and I also informed that I am unable to undertake any research for you in that area. You may refer to any material with which you are pleased such as Wikepedia or whatever. I have no comments. Wikepedia is not my reference in my area of work. If you have unearthed anything from authoritative materials acceptable and accepted in Courts of Law in India, I will be interested to hear. Thanks anyway.

Piaalot, THE CONCEPT OF FREEDOM OF RELIGION embodies the facility to any baktha to worship any God or Goddess, regardless of how many times any such God or Goddess may have married. Secondly, if you are of legal background, you know that marriages of gods and goddesses are not justiciable issues which can be brought before the Courts of Law, so there is no use talking about their marriage vis-avis the Law, whatever law that is!! If you do not believe me, just bring a public interest action is your Courts in India and see the result yourself.

[bis_mala]

Law is made for human beings to comply. Laws made by humans are not applicable to Gods and Goddesses!! How can any human make laws for Gods and Goddesses?
It is central to both Vaishnavites and Shaivites that God took their avatars in Human form only to show the way to live for the man kind.
Then get married like the gods and see for yourself if the laws of India relating to marriage override or are subject to the principle you have cited!! Then you can find out how the laws are applied and the various doctrines and adjective laws which enable the Courts to decide in the manner in which they will decide in your case with your peculiar defence!!

[
Nope. Hindu Laws or its ante-cedant Vedic Laws were applicable to Humans and were practiced devotedly. According to Manu-smirti, no case can be registered on men even if they killed his wife, animals or sudras as long as he was the owner of these beings.

You have an Indian Criminal Appellate Court decision to support your contention that manusmiruthi overrides the penal laws relating to homicide? If you can quote, I will be VERY PLEASED to hear. If you have Privy Council or even Pakistani, Burmese, Ceylonese Appellate decisions in this respect, you are also welcome to quote. Otherwise you may consider dropping this part of your argument.


I do not think it is my fault. I think it is my strength to have the ability to think that everyone be it the King, God or Shankaracharya to be subjected by the same law especially when it is said to be given by God himself. If it is wrong, I will, to my strength, however weak l might be, will attempt to bring the offender to the Law for punishment.

The general legal doctine is that everyone is equal before the law but in various countries there are exceptions and procedures. India may have their own law. You take advice from an Indian advocate and solicitor. If I were to go and register myself in India for a practising certificate or licence and I were given a case relating a god or God, I will decide not to proceed with the case. The Bench will not be able to deal with Gods!!
Kings - I understand, abolished in India. If so, you may be able to bring a case against a former King if you have sufficient evidence.
Shankaracharia has no immunity whatsoever? Then you may proceed. But if anyone has committed an offence and you know it, do you know what your powers are as a citizen? You may report. The Police and then the Advocate -General (or Attorney-General) will decide whether to proceed or not. Purchase a copy of the Indian Criminal Procedure Code and read it. Ratanlal has commentaries. Please do not come out more confused after that. I finished my LLB & LLM within 5 years. I know that you have legal errors in your argument. Difficult to explain without going into details.


I will not be at fault to even expect that if God was a gentleman, he himself will surrender. Like Krishna does in Mahabharatha, for every offense (offense according to Manu-Smirti) that he commits. In Shivitism, a poet calls Shiva a bluff even after knowing it is Shiva himself. Now tell me if the Gods fall within the Law or not ?

Gods, ghosts, dracula, ginnies, fairies, angels, devils, all other creatures besides humans cannot be prosecuted. Drink some milk and have a good sleep puzzlelot!!

Why don't you go back to the story of Buddhists who sold /killed the Hindus and then later became Hindus themselves! Did it not prove the strength of the Hindu religion? If Hinduism is so bad as you make it out to be, why are the Dalits still remaining within the Hindu fold? One or two thngs here may be bad, but most things are "workable" at least?

[Eelavar]

In what sense u write it, i dont understand.
By the way according to my guru (in my avatar) the rules and regulations described in vedas & purans are always remains unchangeable to any region & to any time in the universe & it always applicable on all species in the earth & also on all gods & godessess.

Great great :wink:

As we, Hindus, know that universe is infinitely created and destructed what was said and rediscovered by yogi masters through transcendal meditations will remain always true and right ETERNALLY...Otherwise it would mean that Knowledge always change what is for me just nonsense...

True Knowledge is not movable... It is for me as logic as mathematics...

What is Truth will remain Truth for EVER ! (Like True Science will remain true for ever, but if a science is not true, it could change over the age)

God is always God... He do not change...In fact True Knowledge is a part of God so it can not change.. :wink:

Pizzalot,
Hope you will understand that, otherwise i'm sorry but you will not understand the esoteric mystery part of Hinduism.. :wink:

You are a very strange Hindu.. Who critize Hinduism severely but pretend to be a Hindu..

You talked about Ram as if it was a stupid idea to trust to the part of mystery and symbolism found in Ramanaya..

If you were a hindu i do not think you will have mocked... Or maybe you haven't understand the message behind this myth..

Pizzalot it is good to be critics, very good, but paranoia must not take the over.. A hindu believe to his Guru who himself was enlighted by another Guru or a Yogi...
Holy saint never lies. Thiru-Kural will remain Thiru for ever.. Otherwise there is no need to trust it..

[Surya]

Pizzalot went from Discussing the Hindu Genocide, to Talking about the Loyalty of Nazies to Iran, to Putting Hinduism in Bad Light....:? :?

Thalai-ye suthi mookai thodara maathiri, suthi suthi, kadaiseela vanthutaaru avaroda point-u-kku which exposed him. :lol2:

Anywayz,

Back to the Topic....

Anyone have any info on the BOMB BLAST on THE MATHURA EXPRESS in LUCKNOW yesterday? :x

[Eelavar]

Surya,


Pizzalot went from Discussing the Hindu Genocide, to Talking about the Loyalty of Nazies to Iran, to Putting Hinduism in Bad Light....

You got the point my friend. :wink:
I cannot believe what he pretends to be.. :? :roll:

[pizzalot]

In what sense u write it, i dont understand.
By the way according to my guru (in my avatar) the rules and regulations described in vedas & purans are always remains unchangeable to any region & to any time in the universe & it always applicable on all species in the earth & also on all gods & godessess.

Great great :wink:

As we, Hindus, know that universe is infinitely created and destructed what was said and rediscovered by yogi masters through transcendal meditations will remain always true and right ETERNALLY...Otherwise it would mean that Knowledge always change what is for me just nonsense...

True Knowledge is not movable... It is for me as logic as mathematics...

What is Truth will remain Truth for EVER ! (Like True Science will remain true for ever, but if a science is not true, it could change over the age)

God is always God... He do not change...In fact True Knowledge is a part of God so it can not change.. :wink:

Pizzalot,
Hope you will understand that, otherwise i'm sorry but you will not understand the esoteric mystery part of Hinduism.. :wink:

You are a very strange Hindu.. Who critize Hinduism severely but pretend to be a Hindu..

You talked about Ram as if it was a stupid idea to trust to the part of mystery and symbolism found in Ramanaya..

If you were a hindu i do not think you will have mocked... Or maybe you haven't understand the message behind this myth..

Pizzalot it is good to be critics, very good, but paranoia must not take the over.. A hindu believe to his Guru who himself was enlighted by another Guru or a Yogi...
Holy saint never lies. Thiru-Kural will remain Thiru for ever.. Otherwise there is no need to trust it..


Please go ahead on the discussion of the Genocide Of The Hindus based on The Truth.

[Eelavar]

Please go ahead on the discussion of the Genocide Of The Hindus based on The Truth.

Thanks !!

[pizzalot]

So ??? Where should we start ? Since everyone is silent let me pick .. Genocide of Krishna's family itself by Gandhari's curse or the Genocide of Kalinga people by the Mau-Aryas ?

[crazy]

So ??? Where should we start ? Since everyone is silent let me pick .. Genocide of Krishna's family itself by Gandhari's curse or the Genocide of Kalinga people by the Mau-Aryas ? :roll:

[Lambretta]

Anyone have any info on the BOMB BLAST on THE MATHURA EXPRESS in LUCKNOW yesterday? :x
:shock:
I had no idea abt this! Man tats awful! Wat/who was behind this??

[pizzalot]

Anyone have any info on the BOMB BLAST on THE MATHURA EXPRESS in LUCKNOW yesterday? :x
:shock:
I had no idea abt this! Man tats awful! Wat/who was behind this??

I think it is the BJP who is behind this. Whoelse it could be ?

[Surya]

Anyone have any info on the BOMB BLAST on THE MATHURA EXPRESS in LUCKNOW yesterday? :x
:shock:
I had no idea abt this! Man tats awful! Wat/who was behind this??

I think it is the BJP who is behind this. Whoelse it could be ?

Ivaroda Karpanaikkum Comedykkum oru Aleve Illame Pochu Pa!!! :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

What's next?

Reg 9/11/2001:

Pizzalot: I think it's BJP behind this...Who else could it be? :roll:

Reg Hiroshima & Nagasaki:

Pizzalot: BJP, Who else? :roll:

Reg The Trojan War:

Pizzalot: If you dig deep enough, you'll find hindus behind it! Who else could it be? :roll:

Pizzalot's Default Motive: Accuse Hindus For Everything That Is Negative In The World....

He Has Already Claimed Some Connection Between Hitler, Holocoust Iranians, and Hindus...so that other things don't seem farfetched. :oops: :lol:

Anywayz,
Lamby machi, to ur query: :)

Bomb Blast In Mathura Express, in Lucknow:

http://ww1.mid-day.com/news/nation/2006/june/139763.htm

[rocketboy]

Lets forget about the genocides for a while.

Surya , krishnan vararo illayo , BJP varathu nichayama TN la.

The fascist forces represented by the BJP,RSS,BAJRANG DAL,VHP will never gain a foothold in TN.

The Sangh parivar will never be a force to reckon with.

[Surya]

Vanthutaaru pa Karuthu Kanaayiram. :roll:

Why forget Hindu Genocide? That's the title of the thread. :? :huh:

BJP & CO TN-l varatha...Uhm...ok..:? :lol2: If that makes you feel better..why not? :D :thumbsup:

Anywayz,
Enough Digressions. 8-)

[rocketboy]

I strongly advise everyone contributing to this thread to buy a copy of Arundhati Roy's Algebra of Infinite Justice. Its one of my prized possessions. Even after reading that book if someone continues to support Sangh Parivar than I really feel sorry for that person.


And this I think is a very relevant post.

[kannannn]

Surya, is it so difficult to debate without resorting to personal attacks? The investigations into the blast are continuing and the investigators haven't arrived at any conclusion. Why speculate so early? pizzalot, the same applies to you. Are you privy to information that is not yet in public domain?

[Eelavar]

Are you privy to information that is not yet in public domain?

:roll: :roll:

[Badri]

Seeing the current trend this thread is taking, I went back to review the thread right from the beginning, to see whether there is any need for this thread to continue at all or not.

I found the initial posts by Eelavar and srivatsan quite saddening.

While feeling proud of being "Hindus", they are seeking a recognition of the massacre/genocide of Hindus down the line, comparing it with the international recognition enjoyed by other such genocides in history.

In doing so, both Srivatsan and Eelavar have forgotten some of the basic tenets of the very same "Hinduism" of which they are so proud.

There is a reason why these so called genocides have never held much importance in the Hindu psyche. That is because the religion (Sanathana Dharma, to be precise) always taught tolerance and forgiveness. Sanathana Dharma never taught its adherents to hold grudges. It did not teach them to forever hold on to bitter memories of the past. Rather, it exhorted them to dismiss everything as being unreal and not worth wasting time and energy over, and instead focus on betterment, unity and harmony, both in personal lives as well as in the community and nation.

When this is the true message of Hinduism (I still feel comfortable calling it Sanathana Dharma, but for the sake of this thread, will refer to the religion as Hinduism) it is ironical that Srivatsan and Ealavar have chosen to forget that basic tenet and belabour the Hindu genocide!

This is irony at its height.

As a Hubber, I strongly feel this thread is a waste of time and resources.

As a Moderator, I request Ealavar and others to think about what I have written and then honestly tell me if they still feel this thread is needed.

[Surya]

Badri,
Agreeing to ur points about Sanatan Dharm.

But...


As a Moderator, I request Ealavar and others to think about what I have written and then honestly tell me if they still feel this thread is needed.

I do feel that these things are lessons for us to learn from...For ex when Pritviraj Let Gori leave, because he didn't have an Army..which came back and dug his eyes out.

I feel that The Hindu Genocide still goes on Today...

I know that it's typical coming from me, but I also know that Eelavar and Srivatsan will agree with me on that.

I think that this thread should stand, mainly as a reference thread for The Hub on The Atrocities that Hindus Have gone through in the past, since it is relevent to our Culture. We will Discuss the incidents without Offending any Present Community in India. This Thread only took this trend after One Hubber (not pointing any fingures..) Unneccerily brought in Hindutva WITH THE INTENTION to change the course of the thread. :)

Agreed that Sanathan Dharm doesn't encourage holding grudges...this is more of a lesson. After the amount of lives that people who come under Sanathan Dharm have lost, I think that these things should be talked about, and even preached about..not to feed hatred into anyone's mind about anyone else...but to let people know about this sort of gory, bloddy dark History....and I assure you that this thread will no longer offend anyone as long as Hindutva (which is irrelevent, there's no reason to discuss Hindu Organizations, when talking about what the Hindu Population has been through, since no one is going to try to justify any sort of Mass Murder) isn't brought into this again. :)

I know that the Decision is Unanimous..but this is my Opinion. :)

[srivatsan]

both Srivatsan and Eelavar have forgotten some of the basic tenets of the very same "Hinduism" of which they are so proud.



Mr. Badri, did I ever mentioned that as a retreat to the massacre of Hindus, same number of Muslims be killed or something like that in of my posts in this thread?

I recognize the killings as just killings and I have the guts to call it so...and I fear no one in diong so....and I do not think this is against Sanaathana Dharmam.


That is because the religion (Sanathana Dharma, to be precise) always taught tolerance and forgiveness. Sanathana Dharma never taught its adherents to hold grudges. It did not teach them to forever hold on to bitter memories of the past. Rather, it exhorted them to dismiss everything as being unreal and not worth wasting time and energy over, and instead focus on betterment, unity and harmony, both in personal lives as well as in the community and nation.

Many people have started telling this that Sanaathana Dharmam doesn't ask anyone to go and fight and forgive all....I want to ask all those, including you, Mr. Badhri, that is that what is the only moral said in Sanaathana Dharma.....? If you belive Mahabharatha is one of the main pillars of Sanaathana Dharma go and refer Vana Parvam, and even Bhagawath Geethai. I can quote you lots and lots of example in our past where such just indignation have been recorded!

And as a moderator, if you feel I am going against the rules and regulations of this forum, you are free to remove my posts or even me from this forum and I dont care.

I feel it is my birth right to call Spade a spade (or atleast what I feel to be a spade) and I dont care the consequences some times!

Ofcourse, I am not very Secualar or Democratic, but I dont think, I have ever crossed limits in this thread, if I have,please show me :!:

[Badri]

Many people have started telling this that Sanaathana Dharmam doesn't ask anyone to go and fight and forgive all....I want to ask all those, including you, Mr. Badhri, that is that what is the only moral said in Sanaathana Dharma.....? If you belive Mahabharatha is one of the main pillars of Sanaathana Dharma go and refer Vana Parvam, and even Bhagawath Geethai. I can quote you lots and lots of example in our past where such just indignation have been recorded!

The Sanatana Dharma values, as expressed in the Mahabharatha and the Geeta speak about addressing wrongs being done to society due to Adharma. They speak of a Dharma Yuddha then and there to stop Adharma, not a retribution, not a revenge for past wrongs. They do not, by any means, tell you to reach back far into the history to recollect ancient wrongs done to you.

And even if you do recollect, of what avail is such an endeavour in those who come from a culture of Kshama or forbearance? What do you hope to achieve by this recollection? To stir a dharma yuddha against ancient perpretators?


...not to feed hatred into anyone's mind about anyone else...but to let people know about this sort of gory, bloddy dark History.

Haha, that is like saying here, drink this poison, but remember, I am not giving this to kill you!


After the amount of lives that people who come under Sanathan Dharm have lost, I think that these things should be talked about, and even preached about..

Oh, and how does talking about that help us in our lives today?

Oh I know, the familiar argument against this - by that token then one should not even speak about the Freedom Movement; all of history would be meaningless.

That is not my intention. But the way this thread has been proceeding is not like a clinical recounting of historical facts.

If you all can assure me that this will merely be a historical thread, then fine, we can go ahead. But if it is going to infused with personal emotions, taunts and other such, then we have to reconsider the need for this thread to continue

[pizzalot]

Sorry, Kannan , for taking specific names.

I admire your views Badri and Rocketboy. Surely there are some people still around who see religion as just a conceptual tool to enhance the quality of life.

I can even forgive communalism but I cannot forgive hearless discrimination. I sincerely believe 95% of the Muslims are of Indian origin who were discriminated heavily in the past by the Manu-Smirti type of administration. They converted into Muslims because they were classified as "non-hindus" or in-fact "nothing at all". They hoped to get some recognition by conversion. But that did not help them. Instead, with the fanatic Hinduism growing among the already established communities, they are becoming targets for mild to severe attrocities.

It looks for me , as a on-looker, as though they received a "anhilation sentence" several thousand years back and are simply waiting in death camps.

All the posts from the so called "Hindu Nationalists" in this thread never acknowledged this basic fact and that is why I asked them to go ahead with their discussion on the basis of "The Truth" to see what comes out of it.

I respect life more than religion. Badri, you were right in your earlier post about my motive. I wanted to disrupt the complacent and self-praising attitude of people in this thread. They had the privlege to see and live this age of Information Technology. But that should not remove the basic moral values which their education should have imparted.

I do not care if they were against Islam. That I can call it as religious fanatism which prevails in almost every part of the world and appears only as natural as patriotism to the soil. But what I am concerned is the face of the fantacism in India, which in several ways unique in terms of severity and duration. This cruel tendency is aimed at "people" or "lives" and not any ideology or religion. They will be tortured even if they were Hindus, Muslims or Christians. Simply that seems to be their fate. In every way this is the real Genocide by any definition and the largest, in scale and severity, even considering the anhilation of the Jews in all the history in all all nations.

The situation is only becoming worse everyday. With FDI money pouring-in the disparities have become so wide that any moment they can be all wiped-out en-masse.

None of them are even close access the internet or any technology to counter or refute the postings in this thread. I assumed that only I was there for those un-heard voices and in every post of mine, I was only trying to point-out this cruel nature in us which has perculated into our religion and is giving us immunity against the normal conscience.

I was never a religious person in my life. I read the scriptures as nothing more than than I read a news paper. But still I have got this passsion for the weak and the immobile. How can that be explained ? I have spent lakhs of rupees for those unknown faces in the brink of extinction. I pick-up on anyone who is atrocious on them. I am socially and economically a well previleged and not related to them by blood or sin. And so where did this behaviour of mine come from ? Surely not religion because I am not religious. So I believe there is a innate moral conscience in everyone of us. Religion is just a reflection of it. And any absence of this tendency in the people will surely reflect in the religion in some ways.

No one knows if God created men. But we know for sure man created god for the good or the worse. (Eelavar and his kind, please do not argue on this as you already accepted that Ganesh/Hanuman were symbloically created).

Eelavar, since you are a mathematician, I am not telling you anything new on the following. Didn't you know the logic and maths does not work as you near the boundaries of our Universe ? Did you not know there is not one but multiple Universes which cannot be approached with any of your logic or mathematical equation ? With multiple Universes there should be atleast "One Univeral Truth" attributed to them which again calls respect for Plurality and individuality against Universality ? Did you not know that Einstein's relativity theory is beyond maths and logic and is based on a unexplained but proved fact that "nothing" travels faster than light ?

[Badri]

What an irony, that while I was supporting Pizzalot's views so far, in this post where he appreciates my views, and states further views of his own, I have to disagree!!!


I sincerely believe 95% of the Muslims are of Indian origin who were discriminated heavily in the past by the Manu-Smirti type of administration. They converted into Muslims because they were classified as "non-hindus" or in-fact "nothing at all". They hoped to get some recognition by conversion.

Many converted because they were put to the sword, my dear fellow! Certainly not 95%. The Muslim invasions of the Slave Dynasty and later on the Mughals resulted in mass conversions, arising primarily out of force and the fear thereof.


And so where did this behaviour of mine come from ? Surely not religion because I am not religious. So I believe there is a innate moral conscience in everyone of us. Religion is just a reflection of it. And any absence of this tendency in the people will surely reflect in the religion in some ways.

One lone example is not proof of a theory. You are attempting an unscientific extrapolation based on insufficient data. Cannot accept this.

Yes, there is an innate moral conscience, which is to a large extent, fostered by religion. Misinterpretation of religous dictates is the fault of man, you cannot fault the religion for that. On that count, yuor statement that "absence of this tendency in the people will surely reflect in the religion" is wholly unfounded.

True, the persecution in the name of religion is only fanaticism and is against humanity but sadly few religions are proof against that.

The Crusades, the Inquisition etc are proofs of that evil percolating into Christians and Muslims. Hindus alone are not to be blamed for that.

Pizzalot, what we need is a balanced view. Sadly, even you are getting carried away! No religion can be blamed for man's selfish and greedy interpretations and misdemeanors.

That is the reason I said this thread has no validity left in it. I am yet to be adequately convinced of this by people who have posted thus far, including yourself.

[pizzalot]

What an irony, that while I was supporting Pizzalot's views so far, in this post where he appreciates my views, and states further views of his own, I have to disagree!!!


I sincerely believe 95% of the Muslims are of Indian origin who were discriminated heavily in the past by the Manu-Smirti type of administration. They converted into Muslims because they were classified as "non-hindus" or in-fact "nothing at all". They hoped to get some recognition by conversion.

Many converted because they were put to the sword, my dear fellow! Certainly not 95%. The Muslim invasions of the Slave Dynasty and later on the Mughals resulted in mass conversions, arising primarily out of force and the fear thereof.


And so where did this behaviour of mine come from ? Surely not religion because I am not religious. So I believe there is a innate moral conscience in everyone of us. Religion is just a reflection of it. And any absence of this tendency in the people will surely reflect in the religion in some ways.

One lone example is not proof of a theory. You are attempting an unscientific extrapolation based on insufficient data. Cannot accept this.

Yes, there is an innate moral conscience, which is to a large extent, fostered by religion. Misinterpretation of religous dictates is the fault of man, you cannot fault the religion for that. On that count, yuor statement that "absence of this tendency in the people will surely reflect in the religion" is wholly unfounded.

True, the persecution in the name of religion is only fanaticism and is against humanity but sadly few religions are proof against that.

The Crusades, the Inquisition etc are proofs of that evil percolating into Christians and Muslims. Hindus alone are not to be blamed for that.

Pizzalot, what we need is a balanced view. Sadly, even you are getting carried away! No religion can be blamed for man's selfish and greedy interpretations and misdemeanors.

That is the reason I said this thread has no validity left in it. I am yet to be adequately convinced of this by people who have posted thus far, including yourself.

What I am saying is man came first and then the religion.

Do you not agree Badri ?

[Badri]

I do agree with you on that, love.

I also believe that God came first, and then Man and when Man attempted to define a relation to that God, he invented religion.

It is a shame, no matter what the race is, that is persecuted in the name of this religion. Genocide of any race is a matter of sorrow, not only Hindus. Which is why I believe there is no reason to specially pull up Genocide of Hindus and cry over it.

[pizzalot]

Next step: While there could be God and we could be his creation, don't you agree when man invents religion, it could be an invention of his convienience ? I am talking about all religions. Not just Hinduism.

[Hulkster]

Religion in my view is actually a set of beliefs...in others words man's perception of how life and worship of god should be established rather than having any traces of what God told us.

God did guide us along the way but that was due to us not being able to realise what to do and how to progress.

God told us this
1) Be good to yourself
2) Do good to others
3) Never think of evil
4) I will help those who help themselves
5) See all as your brothers and sisters

As for Man they created their own identity..their own rules and made a havoc of all of them

[Badri]

Next step: While there could be God and we could be his creation, don't you agree when man invents religion, it could be an invention of his convienience ? I am talking about all religions. Not just Hinduism.

Which is why you have to look at how religions were created. They were not created just like that.

A master of sacrifice and love called Jesus Christ founded Christianity, which is based on love for all beings

A master of renunciation and wisdom called the Buddha founded Buddhism, which is based on right conduct

Mahavira., a similar great being of reunciation, with no trace of selfishness, laid the foundation of Jainism, which is even today based on Ahimsa, non-violence

A whole slew of sages of undimished wisdom of the Absolute gave to us the principles of Sanathana Dharma.

Pizzalot, yes, religion was invented by man, but what sort of men? The men that you see today, and blame today? Or those illustrious souls that had no thought of themselves, but only love for their fellow-beings, only thought of alleviating their sorrow and suffering?

Again, I reaffirm my view - do not blame religions for their misinterpretation by the hands of the selfish and the self-centred. Relgions were not created for the convenience of a Jesus or a Buddha or a Manu. They were for all mankind, and aimed at curbing that same destructive tendency that you are now lamenting.

Manu's smritis are not fully known. People are looking at select portions of those and decrying it all in entireity. The laws laid down for the rulers to follow, for the teachers to adhere to, for the soldiers to stick to - these are based on Dharma or righteousness.

No fault can be ascribed to them. Lay the fault at man's Mathi (mind) and not on Matha (religion)

[pizzalot]

Many converted because they were put to the sword, my dear fellow! Certainly not 95%. The Muslim invasions of the Slave Dynasty and later on the Mughals resulted in mass conversions, arising primarily out of force and the fear thereof.


People who were converted at the edge of the sword were most successful individuals in the society, but politically subordinated.
(Like one of the Advertising concepts: Show a very successful business or individual using your product or service). Converting the weaker and depressed classes of the society will only result in liability. And nobody would want a liability unless they have strong humanitarian reasons in which case they will not use the sword first.

Do you agree to this Badri ?

If you did: The "elites" of the society who are picked for "model conversions" will be very few in number, correct ? (Per marketing analogy, if you are distributing your samples free to the consumers in order to force them use your product, you will only do it with a small sample size, correct ? Like 0.001% of the population unless you are a MNC marketing cell-phones in a striff competiion ?

While I agree to your point that some were force converted to Islam by measures of discriminated policies or by sword, those numbers would be logically so small that you can safely ignore them in your statistics. Correct ?

How do you explain modern day conversions into Islam ? Where is any sword today ? And who are all those people ? Is any of them members of Upper-Caste community ? The reasons I quoted for conversion were actually the very own words from those converted. Not my own creation.

[crazy]

Mr Badri i found this tread very intresting...............maybe some of my post might have been very irrelevant to this topic, sorry for that!

what ever.............. i guess locking this tread is upto u and eelavar(since he opened this topic), but i wish it still kept going!

[pizzalot]

Next step: While there could be God and we could be his creation, don't you agree when man invents religion, it could be an invention of his convienience ? I am talking about all religions. Not just Hinduism.

Which is why you have to look at how religions were created. They were not created just like that.

A master of sacrifice and love called Jesus Christ founded Christianity, which is based on love for all beings



I am taking your first example. Christianity as we know today, was not created by Christ. It was created by St.Paul, who was not born until after 30 years of Jesus Christ was crucified. He was educated in royal school of Rome, a Roman elite you can call. What he wrote is more of a Roman convienience which even the brother of Jesus himself opposed. Jesus actually opposed the Roman establisment and not the Jewish establishment. Paul's "Christianity" puts the blame on Jews for his crucification of the Romans. This was the main reason for Jewish Holcaust all over the world before the WWII. (Hitler had altogether different reasons for persecuting the Jews)

This is one of the classic examples of how religion is created per man's convienience.

[Badri]

Pizzalot: Now you are entering murkier waters than Dan Brown did with his DVC.


What he wrote is more of a Roman convienience which even the brother of Jesus himself opposed.

And do you think Christians of today will feel happy listening to this?

I would have thought the Four Gospels were the basis of the religion. As you know, they were Mark, John, Luke and Matthew, not Paul.

There is no "Paul's" brand of Christianity, which you allude to.

No, my friend, as a Moderator, I cannot allow such discussions to go on in this Forum. There are limits.

My contention was that these religions have as their basis teachings of wonderful men, whom we cannot cast doubts or aspersions upon.

Let us not obfuscate issues by introducing controversies.

I must insist this line of discussion be ended immediately, lest we hurt the sentiments of our hubbers

[Surya]

Haha, that is like saying here, drink this poison, but remember, I am not giving this to kill you!

In that sense, it's impossible to discuss the majourity of Indian History without having the inevitable take place. :)


But the way this thread has been proceeding is not like a clinical recounting of historical facts.

It was fine until one hubber came in bringing hindutva out of nowhere....there were no probs in the thread until then...:)

[Badri]

It was fine until one hubber came in bringing hindutva out of nowhere....there were no probs in the thread until then..

And you abolutely had to respond, I suppose? Oh no Surya, I have seen you enough in hindutva discussions to buy that line! :wink:

[Surya]

It was fine until one hubber came in bringing hindutva out of nowhere....there were no probs in the thread until then..

And you abolutely had to respond, I suppose? Oh no Surya, I have seen you enough in hindutva discussions to buy that line! :wink:

:lol:

I agree that I'm not a secular person, and blah blah blah....but I didn't bring in anything against any community in Present Day India into this thread. I save that stuff for other suitable forums now-a-days. I also posted earlier that we shouldn't say anything outwardly about any Community in India Today, for the very same reason.....I don't see any post in the thread that took the thread away from it's original path before that one post.

But anywayz, @ the rate this thread is going...(it seems that bringing hindutva into this is inevitable because of some hubbers) :roll: it's up to u and eelavar..

But Hopefuly I can continue posting in my "Chartrapathy" thread which I abandoned a few months ago? :huh:

[pizzalot]

Agreed. Let us end it.

[Eelavar]

Bandri,

close the thread if you want, i will have after nothing to do in this secular forum. My contribution willl be useless.

Do what you want ! Speaking to a wall is useless !

Opening this thread was not bad at my own view. It permitted to many to know what they never learned..

This part of our sad history is not explained and teached in any history course, why ?? At school we learn a lot about genocide of Nazis or Indians of America.
So it is taboo to talk about genocide of Hindus whichwas commited for 1000 centuries (and stil continuing)???

Badri this thread is very important for your general knowledge.
It is the biggest genocide in number of deaths, this genocide influenced a lot India. I don't think it is bad to talk about.
Don't talk about it's negation...

Badri you are a modorerator sure, but nobody closed this thread still, so i don't think that you should just because you are not agree with !! :roll:

[selvakumar]

Badri you are a modorerator sure, but nobody closed this thread still, so i don't think that you should just because you are not agree with !! :roll:

:rotfl:
Sorry Badri.. Couldn't control

[Alien]

Selva :lol: ... "Kandiban" gyaabagam vanthuchaa? :wink:

[selvakumar]

Selva :lol: ... "Kandiban" gyaabagam vanthuchaa? :wink:

:lol:
Ofcourse Machi ! Kandiban is one person who created a record in that case. But here the comments are in such a way that GROUP OF MODS should decide on lock /unlock of a thread.
This logic will lose heavily to our veterans like Kandibans. :lol:

Eelavar, Sorry.. NO fun made on you. We are just remembering the scenario in TF Section and here :D

[Alien]

to our veterans like Kandibans. :lol:

Un lollu thaanga mudiyala Selva ... :lol: :D
Eelavar , no offense meant to u .... :P and sorry for our digressions ....
Digs end here ... :)

[Eelavar]

I don't worry mates. :wink: :P

[crazy]

Bandri,

close the thread if you want, i will have after nothing to do in this secular forum. My contribution willl be useless.

Do what you want ! Speaking to a wall is useless !

Opening this thread was not bad at my own view. It permitted to many to know what they never learned..

This part of our sad history is not explained and teached in any history course, why ?? At school we learn a lot about genocide of Nazis or Indians of America.
So it is taboo to talk about genocide of Hindus whichwas commited for 1000 centuries (and stil continuing)???

Badri this thread is very important for your general knowledge.
It is the biggest genocide in number of deaths, this genocide influenced a lot India. I don't think it is bad to talk about.
Don't talk about it's negation...

Badri you are a modorerator sure, but nobody closed this thread still, so i don't think that you should just because you are not agree with !! :roll:

hope he dont! but.............. :roll:

[pizzalot]

Bandri,

close the thread if you want, i will have after nothing to do in this secular forum. My contribution willl be useless.

Do what you want ! Speaking to a wall is useless !

Opening this thread was not bad at my own view. It permitted to many to know what they never learned..

This part of our sad history is not explained and teached in any history course, why ?? At school we learn a lot about genocide of Nazis or Indians of America.
So it is taboo to talk about genocide of Hindus whichwas commited for 1000 centuries (and stil continuing)???

Badri this thread is very important for your general knowledge.
It is the biggest genocide in number of deaths, this genocide influenced a lot India. I don't think it is bad to talk about.
Don't talk about it's negation...

Badri you are a modorerator sure, but nobody closed this thread still, so i don't think that you should just because you are not agree with !! :roll:

hope he dont! but.............. :roll:

Alright Crazy. Then we must start chronologically. I do not mind if we go backward or forward but we will have to discuss about the Genocide of the Linga worhipers by Jainist/Buddhist Mauryas ior the recent Genocide of the Hindus in Sri Lanka which is still continuing.

[crazy]

Bandri,

close the thread if you want, i will have after nothing to do in this secular forum. My contribution willl be useless.

Do what you want ! Speaking to a wall is useless !

Opening this thread was not bad at my own view. It permitted to many to know what they never learned..

This part of our sad history is not explained and teached in any history course, why ?? At school we learn a lot about genocide of Nazis or Indians of America.
So it is taboo to talk about genocide of Hindus whichwas commited for 1000 centuries (and stil continuing)???

Badri this thread is very important for your general knowledge.
It is the biggest genocide in number of deaths, this genocide influenced a lot India. I don't think it is bad to talk about.
Don't talk about it's negation...

Badri you are a modorerator sure, but nobody closed this thread still, so i don't think that you should just because you are not agree with !! :roll:

hope he dont! but.............. :roll:

Alright Crazy. Then we must start chronologically. I do not mind if we go backward or forward but we will have to discuss about the Genocide of the Linga worhipers by Jainist/Buddhist Mauryas ior the recent Genocide of the Hindus in Sri Lanka which is still continuing.

pizzalot: some pages ago i asked one question, u didnt answere me at all? pls do answer! :)

[pizzalot]

Can you ask me again ?

[crazy]

Pizzalot just one question to u
what r u really trying to tell us here?

here u go! :)

[pizzalot]

Pizzalot just one question to u
what r u really trying to tell us here?
here u go! :)

That Genocide refers to the destruction of the minority by the majority.

[crazy]

Pizzalot just one question to u
what r u really trying to tell us here?
here u go! :)

That Genocide refers to the destruction of the minority by the majority.

:roll: :roll:

[Eelavar]

That Genocide refers to the destruction of the minority by the majority.

Not forcebily !

Indians in America were largely the MAJORITY !!
Like Hindus were the majority when Muslims invaded without pause and stop India.

[pizzalot]

Not forcebily !

Indians in America were largely the MAJORITY !!
Like Hindus were the majority when Muslims invaded without pause and stop India.

Genocide comes from the word Genos (which means family,tribe or race) + Cide (which is termination or killing). So you must be able to clearly define who the affected party is if you want us to proceed further. "Geno" has an element of genetics and bilogical origin to it. What it does not have is "religion", "belief", "culture","goodness" etc which the beginning of this thread was all about. You can call the killing based on religion with any other word, but not Genocide.

[Eelavar]

You can call the killing based on religion with any other word, but not Genocide.

And if the genocide was against a particular religion followers ?
:roll: :roll:
:?: :?:

[pizzalot]

You can call the killing based on religion with any other word, but not Genocide.

And if the genocide was against a particular religion followers ?
:roll: :roll:
:?: :?:

Religous persecution ???

[crazy]

pizzalt: i asked one question, it was why and what u was trying to tell us with ur shocking posts some pages before..........calling hindusim the most intolerent religion.................i didnt mean about the genocide or sth!

[pizzalot]

pizzalt: i asked one question, it was why and what u was trying to tell us with ur shocking posts some pages before..........calling hindusim the most intolerent religion.................i didnt mean about the genocide or sth!

Hinduism is soft and passionate as well as intolerant and arrogant depending on the place you see it. Modern Hinduism practiced at home by loose educated individuals is very flexible and tolerant largely because of the progressive and rational nature of the individuals who practice it and not the Hinduism itslef. Read the punishments described in the scriptures for even petty offences and you will know.

The same Hinduism is rigid and intolerant in many parts of India and practiced word by word. It interferes into the rights of every individual. And if someone violates, they and they are punished the way Manu dictates. A widow is cursed and secluded or sometimes killed. A teenage boy or girl will be given nice lessons if they cross the boundaries of Manu's castelines and normally ex-communicated.

Lives of non-hindus in villages is largely ex-communicated lives.

The British gave their military or police vehicle drivers as follows: "If you have no other choice but to choose between running over 100 people and a cow, choose the former". You will never see the intolerance of Hinduism in Bangalore or Delhi or any city. Go to the villages and you will see the reality.

You tell me where and how you find it tolerant. It will be you who will shock me if you are saying Hinduism is the most tolerant religion.

Hindus are docile and soft only when they are not given power. When they are given power they are mostly intolerant.

[pizzalot]

Are you asking me what was the need to post all that stuff ?

Read the posts from the beginning. Eelavar starts the thread, praises Hinduism and others praise the greatness of Shivaji, condemns Aurangazeb, started to portrait Ghori and the british as the only villains who killed if all the others as innocent babies. One of them say Gori defeats Prithvi in adharma way (100 ways to explain a defeat ) and this innocent Prithvi and other Indian rulers always faught the dharma way.

I interfered and said it is all BS, they were not innocent babies, all were cunning and nasty oldies, they killed everyone, they plundered and robbed the innocent, destroyed civilizations and related to Gori by blood and thought, only difference is Gori read Qoran and these quys read some Vedas or Thiru Kural and in terms of numbers these guys killed more people than Gori or other invaders. Pulukesin destroyed Pallava dynasty and killed millions of innocent people. Narisimha Pallava killed Pulukesin and his people, plundered the city of Vanchi and to this day every Kannadiga, while killing a Tamil tells this story to the Tamil before he dies.

Please note I do not say "foreign invader" here. Everyone was "foreign" in Indian history. A Pandya King would have been much more foreign than Gori for Prithivi.

Got it ?

Have I made my points clear ? Or you want me to be more graphic ?

[Eelavar]

Please note I do not say "foreign invader" here.

Why foreign ? Invaders are foreigners by nature ...! :roll: Invaders are those who make an 'invasion' (from the exterior). :roll:

pizzalot what some warriors did to fight these invaders was not bad. In fact i ADMIRE THEM, I THANK THEM A LOT.

More than 1000 detroyed and robbed temples, more than 80 mios souls killed for their tolerance, resumely more destructions than good creations, it is why i thank those fighters who took arms and stopped this bloody invasion.
And unfortunately the most affected region is still North India... There is no secret about the religious tolerance there..There is a cause for the extermism , it cannot fall from the sky. To each cause an effect. (I don't say that it is good but i just talk about the reality there) :roll:

Pizzalot there is a huge difference between the war delivered among Indian princes in anciant time and the wars of the Islamic invasion. :roll:

In Indian wars of power only the caste of fighters was touched. The innocants were rarely affected.

In the 'holy' war against the Idols , children, women, priests, and other unarmed were slaughtered without pity.. :roll:

There is a hughe difference.
I agree war is war but there is hard or soft wars....

[pizzalot]

Please note I do not say "foreign invader" here.

Why foreign ? Invaders are foreigners by nature ...! :roll: Invaders are those who make an 'invasion' (from the exterior). :roll:

pizzalot what some warriors did to fight these invaders was not bad. In fact i ADMIRE THEM, I THANK THEM A LOT.

More than 1000 detroyed and robbed temples, more than 80 mios souls killed for their tolerance, resumely more destructions than good creations, it is why i thank those fighters who took arms and stopped this bloody invasion.
And unfortunately the most affected region is still North India... There is no secret about the religious tolerance there..There is a cause for the extermism , it cannot fall from the sky. To each cause an effect. (I don't say that it is good but i just talk about the reality there) :roll:

Pizzalot there is a huge difference between the war delivered among Indian princes in anciant time and the wars of the Islamic invasion. :roll:

In Indian wars of power only the caste of fighters was touched. The innocants were rarely affected.

In the 'holy' war against the Idols , children, women, priests, and other unarmed were slaughtered without pity.. :roll:

There is a hughe difference.
I agree war is war but there is hard or soft wars....

Eelavar, you are trying to understand India from what you see today with all the borders drawn intact.

Just imagine there were no recognized International borders. If you keep travelling from East (Assam) to West (Persia) do you think you would have seen people's faces changing suddenly from Mongoloid to Indo Eurapean ? The change will be gradual and smooth. Between the ancient Iran and ancient North Wset India there were no major differences including weather, food and religion. As I mentioned earlier they were culturally very similar. They are basically from the same lot. Hard and ruthless people. That is the reason why the war was very bloody.

After anywar there were innocent, women and children killed, raped or affected. Simply it is the bane of battles. The History is usually written by the winners and so you do not read anything about it.

With respect to communalism in North India, it was not the Muslim invasion per se that was responsible for it. Hindus and Muslims lived very happily for 600 years. Who captured Shivaji for Aurangazeb ? The great Rajput general Jaipal Singh, who was a descendant of Prithivi. For the Rajputs the Marathi culture was more alien than the Moghuls'. That is true even today.

There was a general agreement of power between the Muslims and the west indian Hindus until 1947. It was the partition of India and the subsequent displacement of people on the either side made them immortal enemies. Those that arrived from there wanted to displace the muslims who opted to stay here which is very natural. Several of them occupy high positions in the right wing party. With the death of that generation of people, this hatred will subside though the safron parties may not like that to happen.

Pakistan is about the size of one state in India, UP. Indian Army is a giant and can take Kabul or Karachi any minute they wish.
As for Iran, Iran is a friend and ally of ours. Iran, on any day will favor India over Pakistan. So does the Arab world. So what do we gain by raking-up 1000 year old stories is what I fail to understand.

Even if all that we seek is an apology or condemnation from the Islamic world, how can we put out our case after being freinds with the invaders for 700 years ?

In many posts you say the hindu genocide is still continuing. Who do you refer to ? Is it Sri Lanka ? If that is the case I am 100% percent with you. Not because they are Hindus. As even just humans they have every right to live in Sri Lanka as much as Sinhalese do. Also they are minorities.

I would like India to march into Colombo and this time instead of back stabbing the Tamils, or having a selfish agenda promoting itsown betterment, I would want India to honestly help the Tamil's cause, even if it meant divsion of that Nation. Disarming the Tamils and handing them to the brutal Sri Lankans will be as bad as killing all the tamils. Simply Sri Lankans have demonstrated highest-level of intolerance even though they are Buddhists.

And I want Indians never to become like Sri Lankans.

[crazy]

pizzalt: i asked one question, it was why and what u was trying to tell us with ur shocking posts some pages before..........calling hindusim the most intolerent religion.................i didnt mean about the genocide or sth!

Hinduism is soft and passionate as well as intolerant and arrogant depending on the place you see it. Modern Hinduism practiced at home by loose educated individuals is very flexible and tolerant largely because of the progressive and rational nature of the individuals who practice it and not the Hinduism itslef. Read the punishments described in the scriptures for even petty offences and you will know.

The same Hinduism is rigid and intolerant in many parts of India and practiced word by word. It interferes into the rights of every individual. And if someone violates, they and they are punished the way Manu dictates. A widow is cursed and secluded or sometimes killed. A teenage boy or girl will be given nice lessons if they cross the boundaries of Manu's castelines and normally ex-communicated.

Lives of non-hindus in villages is largely ex-communicated lives.

The British gave their military or police vehicle drivers as follows: "If you have no other choice but to choose between running over 100 people and a cow, choose the former". You will never see the intolerance of Hinduism in Bangalore or Delhi or any city. Go to the villages and you will see the reality.

You tell me where and how you find it tolerant. It will be you who will shock me if you are saying Hinduism is the most tolerant religion.

Hindus are docile and soft only when they are not given power. When they are given power they are mostly intolerant.

Dear
calling hindusim the most intolerant religion still doesnt works for me! comparing to other religion we r better, we r best!
anyway let me stay away from other religions...................we(hindus) have been so tolerant and thats the reason why ur religion and hindus still survives!
and u r speaking of intolerance among hindus in villages.................Good Lord, they r illiterate and naive...........they follow their own way of living...........their primitive way of codes and laws! u cant call hinduism the most intolerant religion coz of that!

[pizzalot]

pizzalt: i asked one question, it was why and what u was trying to tell us with ur shocking posts some pages before..........calling hindusim the most intolerent religion.................i didnt mean about the genocide or sth!

Hinduism is soft and passionate as well as intolerant and arrogant depending on the place you see it. Modern Hinduism practiced at home by loose educated individuals is very flexible and tolerant largely because of the progressive and rational nature of the individuals who practice it and not the Hinduism itslef. Read the punishments described in the scriptures for even petty offences and you will know.

The same Hinduism is rigid and intolerant in many parts of India and practiced word by word. It interferes into the rights of every individual. And if someone violates, they and they are punished the way Manu dictates. A widow is cursed and secluded or sometimes killed. A teenage boy or girl will be given nice lessons if they cross the boundaries of Manu's castelines and normally ex-communicated.

Lives of non-hindus in villages is largely ex-communicated lives.

The British gave their military or police vehicle drivers as follows: "If you have no other choice but to choose between running over 100 people and a cow, choose the former". You will never see the intolerance of Hinduism in Bangalore or Delhi or any city. Go to the villages and you will see the reality.

You tell me where and how you find it tolerant. It will be you who will shock me if you are saying Hinduism is the most tolerant religion.

Hindus are docile and soft only when they are not given power. When they are given power they are mostly intolerant.

Dear
calling hindusim the most intolerant religion still doesnt works for me! comparing to other religion we r better, we r best!
anyway let me stay away from other religions...................we(hindus) have been so tolerant and thats the reason why ur religion and hindus still survives!
and u r speaking of intolerance among hindus in villages.................Good Lord, they r illiterate and naive...........they follow their own way of living...........their primitive way of codes and laws! u cant call hinduism the most intolerant religion coz of that!

Are you trying to say here that you need education to be religious ?

If they are trying to be on their own, how are they all behaving the same way from North to South in many negative things and aligns to Manu's thinking ?

How did the modification take place in the educated ? Did your education cover the Vedas and Scriptures ?

I would say the educated imbibe English culture mostly and absorb only 10% from the scriptures, while the villages over a period of 4000 years absorbed everything from the scriptures. Each village is adviced by a religious authority sitting and doing nothing but that.

If you say only educated Hindus are Hindus, then you are yourself undermining your point, because they are educated-out of Hindu system, away from their village ideologies on western based education system. My point is, they behave not the Hindu way but the Anglo-Indian way.

[pizzalot]

This is a post by Rocket boy:

"Well well but what about the recent gujarat carnage. can anyone tell me, precisely which Hindu scripture preaches the " eye for an eye " policy?Within hours of the godhra outrage , a meticulously planned massacre against the Muslims was unleashed. Women were stripped and raped. People were beheaded , dimembered and urinated upon.
I vehemently condemn the gujarat riots and these organisations (VHP, Bajrang Dal , RSS) need to be dealt with the same yardstick as other terrorist organisations like hizb-ul-mujahideen , harkut-ul-ansar, lakshar-e -toiba . "

Do you say this is Hindu tolerance ? What way is it different from other fundamentalists ?

[johntony]

8-) :smile2:

[Badri]

Badri you are a modorerator sure, but nobody closed this thread still, so i don't think that you should just because you are not agree with !! :roll:

:rotfl:
Sorry Badri.. Couldn't control

That is the whole point of my seeking your views on this before closing. I could have closed it any time, if I chose to simply because I disagreed with it.

What you have failed to realize is that I only made everyone turn their attention back to the topic! Instead of going all over the place, by questioning the need for the thread, all of you got back to discussing the topic and its relevance and to some extent, I succeeded in bringing back the discussion on track.

And I must say only some extent, looking at the way it is still largely going all over the place!

[Hulkster]

This is a post by Rocket boy:

"Well well but what about the recent gujarat carnage. can anyone tell me, precisely which Hindu scripture preaches the " eye for an eye " policy?Within hours of the godhra outrage , a meticulously planned massacre against the Muslims was unleashed. Women were stripped and raped. People were beheaded , dimembered and urinated upon.
I vehemently condemn the gujarat riots and these organisations (VHP, Bajrang Dal , RSS) need to be dealt with the same yardstick as other terrorist organisations like hizb-ul-mujahideen , harkut-ul-ansar, lakshar-e -toiba . "

Do you say this is Hindu tolerance ? What way is it different from other fundamentalists ?

I am afraid this has nothing to do with hinduism. Those cold blooded murderers are Hindutva followers. Hinduism preaches tolerance and forgiveness but Hindutva contradicts hinduism itself. Infact this hindutva followers are not preaching hinduism..their main aim is to make india fully hindu and get rid of any other minority that opposes them...this is more of their own planning and belief rather than going towards hinduism. Hindutva itself was created because these fundamentalists believed hinduism does sound very indianish...does the adding of the "tva" in place of the ism. And as i mentioned their preaching is more of extermination and establishment of India as a hindu country rather than preaching hinduism as they believe the religion is too lenient and tolerant for their likes.

[Surya]

Fine,
It is a given that Hindutva Organizations aren't tolerant...Of Course they aren't!! Any sort of Organization that preaches they version of awareness isn't..because preaching awareness itself is rebelling agianst something that is Current.

But what always strikes me is....

Why is the Post Godhra Riots always Magnified, by Psuedo Seculars AND the Psuedo Secular Media, when the Godhra Carnage is Malliciously Swept under the Carpet?

Not getting into arguements about the actual massacre...it was strongly believed that the Train Burning was an Act of Communalism when it happened, not just by Hindutva Supporters, but by Most of India. Even then, @ the initial stage of the Post Godhra Riots (Before the death ratio was even released) the Media seemed to be having more fun Critisizing Hindus, rather than Condemning the massacre which sparked off the violence.

A Muslim Life is more Valueble than a Hindu One?! :huh:

Another Point...Please do not jump to this without answering the earlier part of the post!

Hindutva's Ideology is more of a Militant, Eye for and Eye type of Ideology...Agreed!

But can you blame them? :huh:

Years of Persecution, Years of Ruthless Mass Murder of their people (hindus), has forced the initial leaders of the HINDUTVA MOVEMENT to start such a movement! :)

Religious Persecution of Hindus still hasn't Stopped! You'd be pathetically fooling yourself if you claimed that it had!:)

From Hindus being Targetted in Kashmir, to Train Burnings, Machine Gun Attacks in Temples, Bombs Exploding in Temples, and during Ganesh Chaturthi...Hindus are still being Persecuted for the religion, and the more abusrd thing is that, they ARE the majourity!! :roll:

Hindutva is a REACTIONARY Movement. Eye For An Eye..If you don't touch mine, then I don't touch yours! For some reason people expect Hindus to stand around blind still preaching the word Ahimsa. Even in that scenerio, an act of violence comited by a muslim isn't as condemnable as the same act of violence commited by a Hindu. :huh: Candid Hipocracy! :roll:

I am not a Gandhian. I do not think that Ahimsa is the answer! The Only way to stop the battering given to Hindus by Radical Muslims, The Sickening Psuedo Secular Media, The Minority Appeasing Govt as well as other forces, is to make a Strong Enough Point, that we will no longer just stand around and show the other cheek as we did for Centuries. :)

If another Gujarat shouldn't happen, then another Godhra shouldn't happen. If another Godhra happens, then another Gujarat will. You see how that works?

For once the media and the govt, as well as othes should realize that balls do exist and Condemn Radical Indian Muslims for their Communalism.

I do not support a Hindu Rashtra. I do not support murder of innocent lives, (Be it Hindu, Muslim, Christian, Jain, Jew whatever), but I do not support Ahimsa either.

[Hulkster]

The more we look at each other as Hindus and Muslims the more violence will be created. Why cant we view all as humans? Are we that stubborn to realise that no matter what identity we give ourselves the basis lies that we all bleed red and have the same body like eeryone and that we are humans? What we need to do is to let people who still have humanity and sanity in them to step forward and eradicate this religious craze in humans so that we may not have to resort to violence as a opinion.

Btw i understand the usage of violence on muslims by these hindtuva followers but why harm the innocent women and children? Ever since when did cutting open a helpless pregnant womans stomach..raping her and burning a child that wunt even harm a fly become justified? Are these hindutva followers so crazy about violence that they have to become almost satanic?

BTW even if you want to really use violence...do it on those who committed those violence...not innocent people who have nothing to do with these fundamentalists.

[pizzalot]

Surya, you know the life how it will be for a minority ? Did you have any experience living outside your state in India for a short period ? Just imagine how it will be to live in that place forever. That is how a minority in any nation will feel.

If the Hindu majority in India sneeze the minorities are gone forever. Imagine what a life they must be living, in fear 24 hours a day. I myself live abroad and if I could not make sure my daughter or son will come home back alive, what a life will I have ? That is why, Surya, any democracy will give some special protection for them.

Who stops you from taking legal actions against the terrorists ?

The entire government and the society is in the hands of the majority. It is the majority rule and so why will you have terrorists or anti-social rioteers from the majority ? It is always a minority who will have to resort to Guerilla tactics bacause their voices are not heard by the majority.

Americans will comment on each other bitterly but when it comes to blacks or Indians or other minorities, they will give some respect and will show themselves as civilized.

If a lady walks by in a male dominated work place, will you not alter your conversation to a more decent tone in order to respect her ? If we do not do that, will any women be able to go for work ?

In the same way, a democracy protects the minorities. The media, police, Government Machinery, Politics etc etc is all filled in by majority thoughts and actions. In such a place, a minority cannot live unless a special protection is given to them.

The muslims in India deserve every right to live a life without fear. The majority dominated society always discriminates against them. Any respnsible media or the Govt. should protect them.

Simply that is the way a civilized world works Surya. I believe you have not understood civics yet. What we say is what the civilized nations do with their women, children and minorities.

I know it is very hard for Hindutvas to understand civilization, but they must work hard on that.

In any case, you know what is going to happen next ? The people in India will understand that the minorities are not the ones causing problems and that, it is the big overhead Hindutvas who are the real bandits Just as they understood it in South. Then they will be burnt and so on .. like the way it happened in medival Europe. India is a few hundred years behind Europe, but will catch-up very fast with greater public awareness.

If the Arab world closes its door on oil for a single day, Indian economy is gone. America will somehow get its oil. But not us. Remember that. Make sure you show a clean face to them. The NDA knows it all too well. That is why it projects its moderates.

With South the increase in the South's appearance in the Center, I do not see any career for you in Hindutva Surya. Better be on the run !

[pizzalot]

I do not understand how these cowards who lived under the unbrella of Muslim rulers for 1000 years all of sudden became courageous after they have all gone ? Why do you want to invite their attention by all the anti slogans ? Do you want them to come back and rule you "left and right" for another 1000 years ?
You guys never learn the lesson !
This is the proverb I remember when I think of your lot :
"A man who is bullied man in the street goes home to beat his wife !"

Where are the bangles gone when I want to give you a gift ?

[pizzalot]

Surya, are the Hindutvas jealous that all the movie stars are muslims and have very high women fan following ?

It is not a coincidence that the Hindutva emerged the same time as these stars grew popular.

[Badri]

Pizzalot: pls edit your comments. Dont indulge in any personal attacks of this kind!

[Surya]

BTW even if you want to really use violence...do it on those who committed those violence...not innocent people who have nothing to do with these fundamentalists.

I agree...Use violence but with those guilty. It is deeply saddening to see innocents getting the same treatment which the guilty deserve. :(


Surya, you know the life how it will be for a minority ?

I lived in bangalore for a few years...it was swell. 8-)


If the Hindu majority in India sneeze the minorities are gone forever. Imagine what a life they must be living, in fear 24 hours a day. I myself live abroad and if I could not make sure my daughter or son will come home back alive, what a life will I have ?

So now Muslims are constantly living in fear in India because hindus are just raging psycopaths right? :roll: This seems to be a reflection of ur anti-hindu take on hinduism being intolerant.

Right! Muslims are scared...not sure if their kids will return home safely or not...thus things like Godhra and Opposing Ram Mandir in AYODHYA, Bombs in Kovai, occur so often! Good LOGIC!! :roll:


It is always a minority who will have to resort to Guerilla tactics bacause their voices are not heard by the majority.

So now...somehow....terrorism is understandalbe...because they're minorities? :banghead: Bombs exploding in Kovai on a normal day is understandable because a minority does it? :? :? What r u saying?! So being a minority is a qualification of being exempt from murder?


Simply that is the way a civilized world works Surya. I believe you have not understood civics yet. What we say is what the civilized nations do with their women, children and minorities.

I know it is very hard for Hindutvas to understand civilization, but they must work hard on that.

:lol: if sweeping the fundamentalism of minorities under the carpet because they are a minority means being civilized, then couldn't care less about being it. U can drown in ur own definitions of Civilised Culture, and theories Nazism and Iran....but sadly that's all they are...just ur own definition and Theories..which a few might share along with u. :wink: :P



In any case, you know what is going to happen next ? The people in India will understand that the minorities are not the ones causing problems and that, it is the big overhead Hindutvas who are the real bandits Just as they understood it in South. Then they will be burnt and so on .. like the way it happened in medival Europe. India is a few hundred years behind Europe, but will catch-up very fast with greater public awareness.

:lol: :roll: Whatever u say Nostradamus! :clap: :P


If the Arab world closes its door on oil for a single day, Indian economy is gone. America will somehow get its oil. But not us. Remember that. Make sure you show a clean face to them. The NDA knows it all too well. That is why it projects its moderates.

Here's a better Idea!! To impress the Arabs...why don't we burn all the hindus who don't convert to Islam?! That'll make India Saudi's little pet wouln't it?


With South the increase in the South's appearance in the Center, I do not see any career for you in Hindutva Surya. Better be on the run !

Don't base everyhting on TN...The number of members joining the RSS is increasing in Karnataka and Andra Pradesh. But we digress..Looking @ the turn of events, I suggest that you change ur name to ABDUL, or you'll be on the run also! :oops: :lol:

Reg Mogul Times:

A Minority of the population which had any sort of pride rebelled then....but the majourity preffered to eat their food and fall asleep, just like present day india. :(

Reg Hindhi Actors:

:rotfl: That just reflects ur own frustrations. :oops: Check ur sources..Hindutva has existed before Independence...Sadly once again, ur wierd theories which seem to be a result of some sort of mushroom, again doens't hold any water. :oops: Better luck next time! :thumbsup: :D

Keep it up with the Unheard of Theories though....Maybe U'll get a Hub Award for being Stoned! :thumbsup: :D

[dsath]

Can't we discuss the issue without getting into personal attacks please?
The Godhra carnage would have been the talk of the town had not there been such a wild unleash on part of the majority community. What needs to be understood here is that the attacks were aimed on India not Hinduism.

I have been in Coimbatore during the bombs blasts and in London during the recent train bomb blasts as well. Both the blasts were aimed at the respective nations, not on Hindus or Christians.

I lived for 20 yrs in Cbe and was right in the middle of it when the bomb blasts happened. The backlash that was unleashed by the majority was very severe. There was a huge loss to property (not to mention the lives that were lost) all Muslim businesses. There was no end to the rumor mills that worked day and night. The community had become very polarized. As a result the development has stalled in the city. When everyone expected the city to boom, it still stays how it was 8 yrs back.
It would have done better for the city, if the miscreants were caught and given appropriate punishment by the law of the state.

In sharp contrast, after the bomb blasts Londoners walked backed for miles as the tubes were completely shut off and there was no back leash by the majority community. There were some short term damages like drop in Tourism and such things, but no long term damage done.

Can't we learn from this? Instead of opting for damage control and damage prevention, what the Hindutva extremist do is indulge in more damage and create scenarios to induce more damage.

[Eelavar]

What Pizzalot missed to see is the fact that Hinduism is NOT HINDUTVA !

Hinduism as nothing to do with politics... Hinduism is a religion, a philosophy..

In secular state we separate religion and politics, so you should separate them pizzalot.. :roll:

A pretented Hindu calling Hinduism as beeing the most intolerant religion is for me hypocrisy.. So convert you in other religion pizzalot if you think that about Hinduism, i sincerely do not understand why you pretend to follow this religion...
:roll:

Is it not irony and hypocrisy ?... :roll:

[Eelavar]

Why temples and Buddha's statues are destructed in Afghanistan and in some part of Pakistan ?

Nothing to do with intolerance ? :roll:
What about this intolerance pizzalot ?

If it still continue today, just imagine the rate of destructions fews centuries before..

From about the 7 th century to now Hindus are beeing killed for their religion..

What the tolerance are you talking about pizzalot ?
Even my question will be why is there a big muslim minority in India ?

If Hindus were so intolerant i think there will have been a genocide of Muslims, but it is not the case.. Why pizzalot ?

Because of Hindu's intolerance ? Ha Ha Ha Ha !

Grow up before insulting this religion !

Pizzalot, the Sri lankan question as NOTHING to do with this genocide.

Tamils in Sri lanka are majoritarely Shaivists. There are too catholics and muslims..

The sri lankan problem is related to the Sinhala Buddhist chauvinism and i think it has nothing to do with Hinduism. Please do not try to mix and please come again to the thread.

[alwarpet_andavan]

I do not understand how these cowards who lived under the unbrella of Muslim rulers for 1000 years all of sudden became courageous after they have all gone ?

Good question!

[dsath]

I do not understand how these cowards who lived under the unbrella of Muslim rulers for 1000 years all of sudden became courageous after they have all gone ?

Good question!

Insecurity may be.

[Rohit]

Hello Friends

I am visiting the FH after a long time; and it is good to be back.

Since, this thread is one of the most actively and hotly debated topics in the Indian History & Culture Forum; I thought let me take the opportunity to reintroduce myself here. I hope I haven't disturbed the curly flow the discussion. :D

[Rohit]

Not forcebily !

Indians in America were largely the MAJORITY !!
Like Hindus were the majority when Muslims invaded without pause and stop India.

Genocide comes from the word Genos (which means family,tribe or race) + Cide (which is termination or killing). So you must be able to clearly define who the affected party is if you want us to proceed further. "Geno" has an element of genetics and bilogical origin to it. What it does not have is "religion", "belief", "culture","goodness" etc which the beginning of this thread was all about. You can call the killing based on religion with any other word, but not Genocide.

Dear Pizzalot

Below is the UNO definition of genocide, adopted by Resolution 260 (III) A of the United Nations General Assembly on 9 December 1948; and it does include religious group. I am afraid, your understanding of genocide seems to be flawed and erroneous.

Article 2
In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

Source:
http://www.hrweb.org/legal/genocide.html

[Surya]

Dsath,
My initial point/wondering was...

An act of Communalism is an act of Communalism. An act of Violence is and Act of Violence right?

Regardless of who it is perpetrated by.

I had asked, why is it that the media always tries to belittle the fundamentalism perpetrated by the muslims, but magnify the fundamentalism perpetrated by the hindus.


it was strongly believed that the Train Burning was an Act of Communalism when it happened, not just by Hindutva Supporters, but by Most of India. Even then, @ the initial stage of the Post Godhra Riots (Before the death ratio was even released) the Media seemed to be having more fun Critisizing Hindus, rather than Condemning the massacre which sparked off the violence.

Why is this? That was my main arguement...

And Pizzalot comes by saying that since they're minorities, it is understandable for them to indulge in violence, so it's ok when they do it! :roll:

It's hilarity gets even worse, when he starts to bring the US into his arguement.

The US's policy on such things, completly contradicts his ideas!

Here, one WILL be punishied for any sort of Communalism, regardless of the fact if he is a minority or not! He will be punished by the judicial system, as well as the Media. Now that is a Democracy! Not letting someone off the hook for murder because they are a MINORITY and putting the Spotlight of Hate on someone else, just because they are the Majority!

Please do not Compare the US with the Pathetic, Nutless Minorty Appeasing Situation in India! :lol:


I do not understand how these cowards who lived under the unbrella of Muslim rulers for 1000 years all of sudden became courageous after they have all gone ?

:lol: If ur insisting that there was no resistance against the islamic regime, then you are....sheesh..why do I even bother..forget it...drown in ur own ideas! :D


The Godhra carnage would have been the talk of the town had not there been such a wild unleash on part of the majority community.

Really? Is that why the MEDIA was seen throwing stones @ the BJP for Condemning the Ayodhya Temple Attack, and the March Varnasi Blasts...

Only in India can a Bomb Explode, and the people who get persecuted are the ones who Condemn it! :roll: :(


Now,

All I ask for, is equal treatement! A murder doesn't become OK, just because it is commited by a Minority!

Fundamentalism is NEVER understandable, regardless the perpetrator...wether it's Hindutva or Muslims League or TMMK. :)

Rohit,
Welcome back..Long time. :)

[pizzalot]

Why temples and Buddha's statues are destructed in Afghanistan and in some part of Pakistan ?

Nothing to do with intolerance ? :roll:
What about this intolerance pizzalot ?

If it still continue today, just imagine the rate of destructions fews centuries before..

From about the 7 th century to now Hindus are beeing killed for their religion..

What the tolerance are you talking about pizzalot ?
Even my question will be why is there a big muslim minority in India ?

If Hindus were so intolerant i think there will have been a genocide of Muslims, but it is not the case.. Why pizzalot ?

Because of Hindu's intolerance ? Ha Ha Ha Ha !

Grow up before insulting this religion !

Pizzalot, the Sri lankan question as NOTHING to do with this genocide.

Tamils in Sri lanka are majoritarely Shaivists. There are too catholics and muslims..

The sri lankan problem is related to the Sinhala Buddhist chauvinism and i think it has nothing to do with Hinduism. Please do not try to mix and please come again to the thread.

My theory supports minoroties wherever they are. In Pak/Afghanistan I take the side of Hindus and Buddhists. In India I take the side of Muslims. In Sri Lanka I take the side of Hindus, Christians, Muslims against Sinhalese. Just opposite of LKA's views. Please make your debate after asking for my views, Eelavar.

Here may be I am impressed by Christ's words of putting the last first.

[pizzalot]

Dsath,
An act of Communalism is an act of Communalism. An act of Violence is and Act of Violence right?

Regardless of who it is perpetrated by.

I had asked, why is it that the media always tries to belittle the fundamentalism perpetrated by the muslims, but magnify the fundamentalism perpetrated by the hindus.



There is no "fundamentalism of minorities" in the world. It should be described as "pride" or "self-respect" if at all any.

Understand this first. Any act of protestation, violant or not, is committed aiming at the Government and Law made per convienience of the majority. The Govt and Law are all in majorities' hands and it is theoretically possible that the minorities are neglected or even harassed. Now after laying a law and forming a govt, you guys try to make a mock of it by taking law and action in your own hands from the backyard forming gangs of hooligans.

The minorities atleast have the excuse that they are protesting against a system which never hears their cry. What cause do you have ? If your cause is legitimate why do you not try to fight through your cause through legislation and government ? You guys are really pathetic not having the least common sense.

What sense can we expect from guys who do not even respect the Father Of The Nation ? You were banned umpteen number of times in the past and the Indian Government sees you as nothing but murderers. Your first pass was on The Mahatma itself. It was no Muslim who had killed the Father Of The Nation. It was a Hindu Fanatic and since you have no shame of calling yourself a HF, I can safely say the kind of you are murderers.

Calling ME a pseudo-secularist, Mr. Anti-Nationalist ?

[pizzalot]

Genocide comes from the word Genos (which means family,tribe or race) + Cide (which is termination or killing). So you must be able to clearly define who the affected party is if you want us to proceed further. "Geno" has an element of genetics and bilogical origin to it. What it does not have is "religion", "belief", "culture","goodness" etc which the beginning of this thread was all about. You can call the killing based on religion with any other word, but not Genocide.

Dear Pizzalot

Below is the UNO definition of genocide, adopted by Resolution 260 (III) A of the United Nations General Assembly on 9 December 1948; and it does include religious group. I am afraid, your understanding of genocide seems to be flawed and erroneous.

Article 2
In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

Source:
http://www.hrweb.org/legal/genocide.html

I was only asking Eelavar/Badri to give a clear direction to this thread. While I was right with the meaning of the word Genocide, taking the roots, it really does not matter here. My stand on minorities is going to be the same if or not you guys give bilogical considerations. I only wanted to understand what Eelavar had in his mind while starting this thread.

[pizzalot]

An act of Communalism is an act of Communalism. An act of Violence is and Act of Violence right?

Regardless of who it is perpetrated by.

I had asked, why is it that the media always tries to belittle the fundamentalism perpetrated by the muslims, but magnify the fundamentalism perpetrated by the hindus.

It's hilarity gets even worse, when he starts to bring the US into his arguement.

The US's policy on such things, completly contradicts his ideas!

Please do not Compare the US with the Pathetic, Nutless Minorty Appeasing Situation in India! :lol:

All I ask for, is equal treatement! A murder doesn't become OK, just because it is commited by a Minority!

Fundamentalism is NEVER understandable, regardless the perpetrator...wether it's Hindutva or Muslims League or TMMK. :)


You are mis-quoting DSath. In the US/UK it is the legislation or judiciary of the majority that punishes violent act of the minorities. The media respects the judgement of the land and reports accordingly. In India some 1000 bangle wearing hooligans, hide behind each other and insults their own judiciary and legislation.

Is it clear now ?

[pizzalot]

Pizzalot: pls edit your comments. Dont indulge in any personal attacks of this kind!

How can you say this as personal attack ? I was meaning a whole bunch of people among who Surya is a member.

However, I will edit it.

[pizzalot]

Don't base everyhting on TN...The number of members joining the RSS is increasing in Karnataka and Andra Pradesh.


You know what Mr. Surya ? We kind of sensed it and took appropriate measures. Did you take the attendance of the meetings after Mr. AS announced the affirmative actions ? 1000 students is all they could get to protest against a central minister. Man ! With the kind of satellite eye-sight the central ministers have gotten, he would not even have noticed a 10,000 students self-immolating themselves. Anyway, please let us know if there is a large number of turn-out in your regular meetings. If so, perhaps we will have to increase the percentage. Our target is 99.9999999% and will still be based on 1925 survey. We are trying to cover everyone except a very few. So please go and study hard.

[pizzalot]

I do not understand how these cowards who lived under the unbrella of Muslim rulers for 1000 years all of sudden became courageous after they have all gone ?

Good question!

Insecurity may be.

Yes. I am infact worried for these people because as the history reveals the people will turn against them one day and .... you know .. the medieval European thing.. that is what will happen to these folks.

[pizzalot]

Surya, btw, you mentioned about Ayodhya Ram mandir and so on. Was it really true Ram ruled the whole of India ?

Why is it we read about Asoka or even Gazni but not about Ram in the History books ? Are you guys having any plans to revise the school text books ?

And what and who was Hanuman ? And his entire Kingdom of monkeys ? Will your text books also explain who the writers meant ? And who are the the Rakshashas ? Anyone who does not accept the authority of Ram ? Could he actually be Sita's father because this guy tortured her ? After-all he proved his quality later by burning her and later abandoning her..

Why do you guys say MF Hussain's drawing of Sita and Hanuman in nudity as "disgusting" while every temple of ours depicts goddessess in nudity ? Will your textbooks explain that also ?

Who are the Dasayus who are their hosts but yet disgusting because they worshiped the Phallus (Linga) and so they deserved to be slain in millions with the help of Indra ? Why are these scriptures being read again and again there by offending the local hosts who still inhabitate parts of India ?

Why did you convert the Buddha as Venkatachalapathy and hid his face with a big nama ? Are going to give the Buddhists the world's second largest temple back ? Why do you consider only muslims as "foreigners" while accepting the Raj Puts as local who only came 200 years before the muslims ? The color of the Burkha really matters ?

The Muslims regret their conversion and want to get converted back into Hindus. What is the varna they will get ?

Why do you even bother if I was Abdul or Mohammed .. just answer these questions if you can ... there is a whole big list coming out .. but first answer these questions.

[pizzalot]

Just one more to the list:

Why do you guys humiliate all the Hindus by transforming a bull into a horse ? (http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Parthenon/2104/horseplay.html)

....

Very funny .. I request everyone to read this. ah ah ah !!

[dsath]

[tscii:77b72db038]

Dsath,
An act of Communalism is an act of Communalism. An act of Violence is and Act of Violence right?

Regardless of who it is perpetrated by.

I had asked, why is it that the media always tries to belittle the fundamentalism perpetrated by the muslims, but magnify the fundamentalism perpetrated by the hindus.



There is no "fundamentalism of minorities" in the world. It should be described as "pride" or "self-respect" if at all any.


I am afraid, i can’t agree with Surya's and Pizzalot's points on this one.

Surya, Media in general condemned the killings. Name one publication or channel which did not condemn the killings. It was an outrage, but what followed was even more outrageous and duly condemned by the media and everyone else.
In the initial attack, there were a few people of a particular community involved. They planned and executed the deplorable act. The other members in their community were not involved and so cannot be blamed.
But in what followed, even though only a few big heads planned, a large number executed it. A much larger number was involved and many more were affected. Its the proportion. And its unfair unduly blaming the Indian media.

Again all these incidents are baits to divide us further. For heavens sake can't any one see this? Please don't take it. Long term security lies in resisting the bait and building a strong society based on mutual trust.

Pizza, minority or majority fundamentalism is just that period.

Can some one please explain me what pseudo secularism means?

[/tscii:77b72db038]

[kannannn]

Right! Muslims are scared...not sure if their kids will return home safely or not...thus things like Godhra and Opposing Ram Mandir in AYODHYA, Bombs in Kovai, occur so often! Good LOGIC!! :roll:
You have got your chronology all wrong. The Ram Mandir movement was the first illegal, extremist, mass religious movement in independent India. That's what started it all. Do you mean to say the muslims should have given up their place of worship and lived peacefully with Hindutvadis? What LOGIC is this?I don't support the Kovai bombings but look at what the catalyst was. Advani toured the entire nation and prodded hindus to support the demolition of a mosque. All along the route of his yatra communal tensions ran high. How do you expect the minorities to feel safe in such a scenario? And it doesn't stop at this. Varnasi and Mathura are still on the agenda. Who knows what other mosques will come up for demolition later?! Still you want the muslims to feel safe!!


Don't base everyhting on TN...The number of members joining the RSS is increasing in Karnataka and Andra Pradesh.
Yes, maybe they can also learn a bit of history - that one of the founders of Hindutva, Savarkar wrote a letter of apology to the British to escape doing time in Andaman prison.

[Nakeeran]

Can some one please explain me what pseudo secularism means?

[/tscii]

YOU WANT AN EXAMPLE ?

WHAT CONGRESS HAD BEEN DOING ALL THESE YEARS IS PSEUDO SECULARISM

[dsath]

Can some one please explain me what pseudo secularism means?

[/tscii]

YOU WANT AN EXAMPLE ?

WHAT CONGRESS HAD BEEN DOING ALL THESE YEARS IS PSEUDO SECULARISM
Thanks Nakeeran but, i don't want an example, just an explanation of the term. Its being used everywhere now, but many people including me fail to understand the real or implied meaning.

[alwarpet_andavan]

The US's policy on such things, completly contradicts his ideas!

Here, one WILL be punishied for any sort of Communalism, regardless of the fact if he is a minority or not! He will be punished by the judicial system, as well as the Media. Now that is a Democracy! Not letting someone off the hook for murder because they are a MINORITY and putting the Spotlight of Hate on someone else, just because they are the Majority!

Please do not Compare the US with the Pathetic, Nutless Minorty Appeasing Situation in India! :lol:


:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

[Nakeeran]

Can some one please explain me what pseudo secularism means?

[/tscii]

YOU WANT AN EXAMPLE ?

WHAT CONGRESS HAD BEEN DOING ALL THESE YEARS IS PSEUDO SECULARISM
Thanks Nakeeran but, i don't want an example, just an explanation of the term. Its being used everywhere now, but many people including me fail to understand the real or implied meaning.

Ok fine.

Secularism is a word infact which is integral of our Constitution ! This is one of the main theme based on which our new India was built . Jawaharlal Nehru ( and ofcourse Congress ) was instrumental in making it a part of our constitution.

TO GIVE EQUAL RESPECT / TREATMENT TO ALL RELIGIONS is what one mean by Secularism. In other words, those who rule the State & also the Courts should not show any bias or prejudice towards any particular religion but treat all as one entity

Now Pseudo secularism -

There are some political parties who belong to a particular religion but just for vote catching, they give a camaflouged look to the minorities to give an impression that they are the ones who take care of them
These guys belong to the Pseudo secularistic group.
IMO, Congress perfectly fits into the definition of Psedo secularists.

The reason being that BJP is very clear about their intention. They openly declare that this is a Hindu country and other religions should recognise this fact and live accordingly. At the same time, the party doesnt antaganise other religions.

The reverse is what Congress had been doing all these years.
Under the pretext of following this, just to appease the minorities, SHOW as if they are very supportive and sympathetic towards them while THEY WILL BE BELONGING TO THE OPPOSITE RELIGION WHICH THE MINORITIES GENERALLY DONT JELL WITH

[dsath]

The reason being that BJP is very clear about their intention. They openly declare that this is a Hindu country and other religions should recognise this fact and live accordingly. At the same time, the party doesnt antaganise other religions.


Talk about contradiction!!!!!!! :lol:

[Surya]

You have got your chronology all wrong. The Ram Mandir movement was the first illegal, extremist, mass religious movement in independent India. That's what started it all. Do you mean to say the muslims should have given up their place of worship and lived peacefully with Hindutvadis? What LOGIC is this?I don't support the Kovai bombings but look at what the catalyst was. Advani toured the entire nation and prodded hindus to support the demolition of a mosque. All along the route of his yatra communal tensions ran high. How do you expect the minorities to feel safe in such a scenario? And it doesn't stop at this. Varnasi and Mathura are still on the agenda. Who knows what other mosques will come up for demolition later?! Still you want the muslims to feel safe!!

First of all: It has been proved that a Ram Mandir Existed there before it was demolished by the muslims. Babri Masjid is a place where an organized prayer meeting hadn't taken place for years. In Islamic Culture itself it is said that if a Mosque isn't wordhipped in for more than 7 months then it looses it's sanctity. Taking these things into Consideration, the Govt should have take the right decision. The Govt didn't, which forced us to do what we did. I don't see it as extreamism.

If they had just stepped back, there wouldn't be a reason for them to be scared. It was a Mosque which even the Local Muslims weren't using anyway. But it stood over a place that had DEEP SENTIMENTAL value to Hindus.

What else is on the list?

Any Mosque that was built on top of a Previously Demolished (because of religious Extremism) Hindu Temple. What number does that sum out to be BTW?


Yes, maybe they can also learn a bit of history - that one of the founders of Hindutva, Savarkar wrote a letter of apology to the British to escape doing time in Andaman prison.

Regardless of what he did, his ideologies still make sense, and are applicable to todays India. It's his ideas that are being tought in the RSS Shakas, it is his ideologies that attract the youth into the RSS even Today.


Dsath,
Asking people to know their role isn't antagonizing them...but anywayz, u wanted an example of Psuedo Secularism....

DMK:

*Sanskrit Mantras Must Not Be Used In Hindu Temples!!!! This Is Tamil Nadu, And People Should Only Use Tamil Mantras, Regardless Of What Importance Sanskrit Has In The Religion!!! ARRRGH!!!!

I wonder where Mr. KK got the Idea that the Islamic Prayer things that flow out of the Loudspeaker are Tamil...:roll: Why not tell muslims that Only Tamil Islamic Religious Songs should be used in Tamil Nadu? This is an example of Psuedo Secularism....Which basically means A rule for the Majourity, and another Rule for the minorty (Favoring It).

[Eelavar]

Pizzalot..

What is this human superiority complex on you ??

Rama is an animal like us, what is the problem with that ?
Are you not animal or have you shame to be animal ??

Firstly look your nature before critizing Rama.
Why you the Hindu don't understand Rama's myth ?

Very very strange, i'm asking if you are really Hindu as you pretend...

Yes Tamils are minority in Sri lanka, but what's the matter with this thread ??

I cannot understand you. :roll:
In fact , what is the rubbish you said about the minority/majority and genocide ??

I cannot follow you a sec.. Sorry, but as i said before majority could too be the victim of a genocide if they are too much peacful and non-violent..... IT IS EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENED WITH THE HINDUS I'M TALKING ABOUT.

[kannannn]

First of all: It has been proved that a Ram Mandir Existed there before it was demolished by the muslims. Babri Masjid is a place where an organized prayer meeting hadn't taken place for years. In Islamic Culture itself it is said that if a Mosque isn't wordhipped in for more than 7 months then it looses it's sanctity. Taking these things into Consideration, the Govt should have take the right decision. The Govt didn't, which forced us to do what we did. I don't see it as extreamism.
There is no conclusive evidence that a temple existed in the place of the Masjid. The conclusions one can arrive at from ASI's report is only that a structure stood in that place. The place might have been a part of Muslim hamlet for all we know and the previous structure an ordinary house. And when they don't agree to give away their mosque, why force them?


If they had just stepped back, there wouldn't be a reason for them to be scared. It was a Mosque which even the Local Muslims weren't using anyway. But it stood over a place that had DEEP SENTIMENTAL value to Hindus.

What else is on the list?

Any Mosque that was built on top of a Previously Demolished (because of religious Extremism) Hindu Temple. What number does that sum out to be BTW?.
There! Do you mean to say, they have to live as second class citizens, submitting to the whims and fancies of Hindutvadis, who come up with a new mosque for destruction everyday? How can you expect them to feel safe in such an environment? Is this not religious extremism? Can Native Indians go about destroying buildings in USA because they were the original inhabitants of the place?



Yes, maybe they can also learn a bit of history - that one of the founders of Hindutva, Savarkar wrote a letter of apology to the British to escape doing time in Andaman prison.

Regardless of what he did, his ideologies still make sense, and are applicable to todays India. It's his ideas that are being tought in the RSS Shakas, it is his ideologies that attract the youth into the RSS even Today.
How can a person, who submitted to British interests be an idol? What use are his ideologies when he doesn't even qualify as a patriot?

[Surya]

Kannan,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archaeology_of_Ayodhya

That link says that there were Carvings of Vishnu on some of the pillars.


There! Do you mean to say, they have to live as second class citizens, submitting to the whims and fancies of Hindutvadis, who come up with a new mosque for destruction everyday? How can you expect them to feel safe in such an environment? Is this not religious extremism?

All I'm saying is, that if they really wanted to live in peace, then they wouldn't have a prob giving up a mosque that was abandoned religiously. Like I said, n Islamic Culture itself it is said that if a Mosque isn't wordhipped in for more than 7 months then it looses it's sanctity. They could have been more understanding to the sentiments of Hindus.

I see myself as a Hindutvadi also, and I know that if there was a Ram Temple which was abandoned which had little significance to cultural or religious aspects of Hinduism, and for whatever reason, that land had importance to Islam @ the same magnitude as Ayodhya to hinduism, I wouldn't mind givign that land up for a mosque.

when i said "Any mosque taht was built on a site with a previos hindu temple. etc etc" that's a different scenerio. In the case that i mention in this post, I wouldn't mind too much, giving that land up.

But that's not how they thought. The way I see it. That part of Ayodhya is too important for us to let go. It would be great if the muslims were more understanding to hindu sentiments. Unfortunatly tthat's not how things went.


What use are his ideologies when he doesn't even qualify as a patriot?

Just because he wrote an apology doesn't mean that he isn't a patriot. He took part in the independence didn't he? But there's no point in debating Savarkar. Because that will just make the Debate go into a million other things in Indian History....I'll refrain from it.

[Badri]

*Sanskrit Mantras Must Not Be Used In Hindu Temples!!!! This Is Tamil Nadu, And People Should Only Use Tamil Mantras, Regardless Of What Importance Sanskrit Has In The Religion!!! ARRRGH!!!!

I wonder where Mr. KK got the Idea that the Islamic Prayer things that flow out of the Loudspeaker are Tamil... Why not tell muslims that Only Tamil Islamic Religious Songs should be used in Tamil Nadu? This is an example of Psuedo Secularism....Which basically means A rule for the Majourity, and another Rule for the minorty (Favoring It).h

Hmm, this is a point worth thinking deeply over!!!!

[pizzalot]

*Sanskrit Mantras Must Not Be Used In Hindu Temples!!!! This Is Tamil Nadu, And People Should Only Use Tamil Mantras, Regardless Of What Importance Sanskrit Has In The Religion!!! ARRRGH!!!!

I wonder where Mr. KK got the Idea that the Islamic Prayer things that flow out of the Loudspeaker are Tamil... Why not tell muslims that Only Tamil Islamic Religious Songs should be used in Tamil Nadu? This is an example of Psuedo Secularism....Which basically means A rule for the Majourity, and another Rule for the minorty (Favoring It).

May be the Tamil Hindus want to understand what is being said of them to God. They perhaps believed the rumour that priests called the Tsunami by reciting some sanskrit mantras following someone's arrest. They simply may not want another Tsunami and perhaps. It may be like, "hey, what are you telling God about us this time ?", you know.

Also why can't you see it this way. Many locals can benefit from employment as priests in temples if it was OK to recite Tamil scriptures isn't it ?

So what is wrong there ? Is it not a policy favoring the Tamils ? You are a Tamil aren't you ? So what is your complaint ?

[pizzalot]

But that's not how they thought. The way I see it. That part of Ayodhya is too important for us to let go. It would be great if the muslims were more understanding to hindu sentiments. Unfortunatly tthat's not how things went.

All your grievances understood Surya. But why did you not fight it through the courts and set a good example ? It is not OK to insult the judiciary system of the majorities Surya. You see you have set a bad precedent now which the terrorists are taking advantage of. If you break the law then they can too and that is what is happening. All because of the ruthless thoughtless actions of the Hindutvas.

[pizzalot]

Surya, I have a great idea to support your Ayodhya crusade, if only all of us could solve a small riddle.
We all know how great the olden minds were. They had symbloically hidden so much of truth in stories and puranas.

So, what if we locate the monkeys of Ramayan to stand witness to the the golden years of Ram rajya. Sure they were very brave, truthful, intelligent and human like with established kingdoms. Tell us Surya, who they are and we will get them for you.

[Badri]

Pizzalot: Advise you to desist from such sarcastic and insulting comments. Prove your points using sensible arguments. Do not resort to such unworthy tactics.

[pizzalot]

Can some one please explain me what pseudo secularism means?

[/tscii]

YOU WANT AN EXAMPLE ?

WHAT CONGRESS HAD BEEN DOING ALL THESE YEARS IS PSEUDO SECULARISM

Dictionary meaning of secularism:

1)Religious skepticism or indifference.
2)The view that religious considerations should be excluded from civil affairs or public education.

Is that what BJP's eu-secularism stands for ? so what are they doing camping around Ayodhya campus ?

[dsath]

[tscii:f5dd91d9f6]Abt the Temple problem, if one claims that since the Mosque was not used for praying and lost its sanctity, then how do you explain building a temple that was not there was 100s of years.
Even if there had been a Temple, should we civilized people retort to the same tactics of some barbarians 1000 yrs back. Whatever happened to humanity and tolerance?
I can't comprehend the Temple logic at all. Its pure RSS style public stunt. After the incident even people who didn’t know such organizations existed knew abt it.Whenever the BJP feels they are loosing ground, they bring up the Temple issue and have all the media attention they want.
The number of inter-community problems increased after the demolition.
Surya u mentioned abt the Kovai bomb blasts. I was born and brought up there and no one in their wildest dreams thought that such a situation would befall their beloved city. Had the mosque not been demolished and Advani kept his distance from our soil, then CBE would have been a glorious city now. Its a shadow of what it used to be. Personally i can never forgive the saffron brigade for what they did to my hometown.
This sentiment is widely shared by many people and thats the reason the saffron brigade will never stand a chance in TN.
Sadly the damage done will take a long time to rectify.

On any given day if i have to choose between peace/development of my hometown and a temple somewhere up North which i am never likely to visit, i will choose my hometown. I think any sane individual would. [/tscii:f5dd91d9f6]

[kannannn]

Kannan,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archaeology_of_Ayodhya

That link says that there were Carvings of Vishnu on some of the pillars.
1. Wiki doesn't provide any credible references to substantiate the info on pillars.
2. The findings themselves have been mired in controvery and even the courts have stayed the use of any archeological evidence in arguments.
3. There were no pillars found on the site. Only what look like pillar bases. Even on this point archeologists differ.
4. See here for an alternate view on the so called evidence:
http://www.countercurrents.org/comm-habib110703.htm
5. More importantly, there are many other places in Ayodhya, where Ram is believed to have been born. Why go after this particular site.

All I'm saying is, that if they really wanted to live in peace, then they wouldn't have a prob giving up a mosque that was abandoned religiously. Like I said, n Islamic Culture itself it is said that if a Mosque isn't wordhipped in for more than 7 months then it looses it's sanctity. They could have been more understanding to the sentiments of Hindus.
The mosque was rendered unusable due to an original government order barring worship in the place. How can you claim then that they stopped worshipping of their own volition? Effectively, the muslims are barred from worshipping in the place and then they are told that since they haven't worshipped there for 7 months, the mosque can demolished. I don't see any logic in this.


I see myself as a Hindutvadi also, and I know that if there was a Ram Temple which was abandoned which had little significance to cultural or religious aspects of Hinduism, and for whatever reason, that land had importance to Islam @ the same magnitude as Ayodhya to hinduism, I wouldn't mind givign that land up for a mosque.
Are you sure the saffron brigade would do the same? No, they wouldn't. And anyway, the people of Ayodhya themselves don't want this controversy to continue and accuse the outside forces of precipitating the situation. Like dsath said, only a person whose town is demolished would understand the pain. Not others who don't give a hoot to whether the town stood there or not.


But that's not how they thought. The way I see it. That part of Ayodhya is too important for us to let go. It would be great if the muslims were more understanding to hindu sentiments. Unfortunatly tthat's not how things went.
You don't see the point. This case would be taken as a precedent and new mosques would continue to apprear on the radar for demolition. Even VHP has said that they wouldn't stop with this demolition. And it's not just about the mosque or the temple. It's about whether they can lead a life of equals in the long run.


Just because he wrote an apology doesn't mean that he isn't a patriot. He took part in the independence didn't he? But there's no point in debating Savarkar. Because that will just make the Debate go into a million other things in Indian History....I'll refrain from it.
Yes, but not before I quote a part of his letter:
"Moreover, my conversion to the constitutional line would bring back all those misled young men in India and abroad who were once looking up to me as their guide. I am ready to serve the government in any capacity they like, for as my conversion is conscientious so I hope my future conduct would be." Contrast this with Bhagat Singh, who refused to plead for clemency. I can go on about him, but let's stop here.

[dsath]

Yes, but not before I quote a part of his letter:
"Moreover, my conversion to the constitutional line would bring back all those misled young men in India and abroad who were once looking up to me as their guide. I am ready to serve the government in any capacity they like, for as my conversion is conscientious so I hope my future conduct would be." Contrast this with Bhagat Singh, who refused to plead for clemency. I can go on about him, but let's stop here.
Now this is interesting, Kannann could you please direct me to a link where i can read the whole letter please?

[dsath]

[tscii:06fd34b292]

Kannan,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archaeology_of_Ayodhya

That link says that there were Carvings of Vishnu on some of the pillars.
1. Wiki doesn't provide any credible references to substantiate the info on pillars.
2. The findings themselves have been mired in controvery and even the courts have stayed the use of any archeological evidence in arguments.
3. There were no pillars found on the site. Only what look like pillar bases. Even on this point archeologists differ.
4. See here for an alternate view on the so called evidence:
http://www.countercurrents.org/comm-habib110703.htm
5. More importantly, there are many other places in Ayodhya, where Ram is believed to have been born. Why go after this particular site.

The archeological discoveries that VHP makes are endless. The discovery of horse bones in Harappa also tells a similar story.
They employ distortion techniques to write their own history, the history they want instead of the history that was. The numbers of people distorting our history to fulfill their own selfish needs are increasing by the day. I wouldn't mind if they publish such things in their own journals, but changing history books in schools is a bit too much even by their standards.
As a result no one is able to review our history impartially. Most of our accepted theory is very Euro-Centric and the new ones are saffron-centric (which results in threads like this). Give us a break. Can’t we explore history for the sake of it and know what really happened and for Heaven’s sake accept it and move on, instead of being stuck in a muddy pool. Bring on the geneticists and archeologists who have a passion for the subject and not for politics and revenge.[/tscii:06fd34b292]

[kannannn]

dsath, here is the link:
http://pd.cpim.org/2002/june02/06022002_savarkar_story.htm
It is from the website of CPI, but what does it matter as long as it is true!

Another one from Frontline (doesn't produce the full letter, but gives many interesting points):
http://www.hinduonnet.com/fline/fl2122/stories/20041105001808300.htm

and yet another one on the rejection of the mercy petition. This sure is interesting:
http://www.hinduonnet.com/fline/fl2207/stories/20050408001903700.htm

[dsath]

Thanks Kannann.

Regarding critics abt Hinduism, i came across this article. Strangely its written by an American educated Pakistani and these are his observations on a single historical figure. But some of his general observations of the Hindu society in general are interesting.
http://www.chowk.com/show_article.cgi?aid=00004872&channel=civic%20center&threshold=1&layout=0&order=0&start=310&end=319&page=1
In a sense the saffron brigade wants revival while the rest of the society wants reform.

[dsath]

dsath, here is the link:
http://pd.cpim.org/2002/june02/06022002_savarkar_story.htm
It is from the website of CPI, but what does it matter as long as it is true!

<diggr>
Wow People's democracy in the net. Its ages since i read one. Thanks again for directing me to the link Kannann. :)
</diggr>

[kannannn]

Regarding critics abt Hinduism, i came across this article. Strangely its written by an American educated Pakistani and these are his observations on a single historical figure. But some of his general observations of the Hindu society in general are interesting.
http://www.chowk.com/show_article.cgi?aid=00004872&channel=civic%20center&threshold=1&layout=0&order=0&start=310&end=319&page=1
In a sense the saffron brigade wants revival while the rest of the society wants reform.
Interesting article dsath. Just left me wondering. What is it about Maharashtra that so many freedom fighters and reformists have emerged over the years from this state?

[Rohit]

Rohit,
Welcome back..Long time. :)
Thanks Surya. Yes, it is long. :wink:

[Rohit]

Who are the Hindus?

Advaita, Qualified Advaita and Dvaita are the three central doctrines of Hinduism that are mutually incompatible with one another as the names themselves clearly indicate. However, there is one element that is common in all three doctrines and that is, they all categorically reject the creation of the universe and life from the outset and use the concept of absolute monism, qualified monism and dualism as their respective bases for their respective doctrines.

Advaita, for the very nature of its adopted base of the absolute monism, cannot accommodate the doctrines of karma and reincarnation. If it ever did, it would instantly collapse and falsify itself, for karma involves action while reincarnation requires one to be born and reborn; both of which absolute monism must be devoid of, if it has to remain valid within its doctrinal boundary. Now when karma, which involves action, and reincarnation, which requires birth and rebirth are both incompatible with the Advaita doctrine, the question of genocide not only becomes devoid of any context but it also becomes absolutely non-existent for anyone who truly holds Advaita as a valid doctrine.

Though, the doctrines of Qualified Advaita and Dvaita are perfectly compatible with the tenets of karma and reincarnation, any genocide of the believers of Qualified Advaita or Dvaita is, by default, attributable to their past karma; and therefore their genocide becomes an absolute non-issue. Tolerance is the only option available to the surviving rest in order to exhaust their karmic account until it becomes completely empty of all the bad karma.

The only possible way to recognise the genocide of the victims is to treat them as human beings, as either created beings, but they must belong to a Non-Hindu religion that prescribes a perfect Creator God; or else, treat them as naturally evolved human beings. In either case, the case of genocide of Hindus becomes absolutely baseless and is not contestable on the religious ground.

On the other hand, secular human beings with limited tolerance to provocation have the rights to defend their identity and self-respect depending on the situation and provocation encountered.

[Surya]

*Sanskrit Mantras Must Not Be Used In Hindu Temples!!!! This Is Tamil Nadu, And People Should Only Use Tamil Mantras, Regardless Of What Importance Sanskrit Has In The Religion!!! ARRRGH!!!!

I wonder where Mr. KK got the Idea that the Islamic Prayer things that flow out of the Loudspeaker are Tamil... Why not tell muslims that Only Tamil Islamic Religious Songs should be used in Tamil Nadu? This is an example of Psuedo Secularism....Which basically means A rule for the Majourity, and another Rule for the minorty (Favoring It).

Hmm, this is a point worth thinking deeply over!!!!

Yes Indeedy!! :mrgreen: :P

Dsath & Kannan, :)

I see that it isn't giong anywhere about Hindutva and the Ram Temple Movement. There is no point in trying to justify the acts of hindutva forces, because it's a completly different type of ideology, to what secular people are used to. What we see are just blunt facts, which have repeted in history.

No matter how you try crucify Hindutva, the fact still remains...

U take the number of Hindus murdered by Muslims all over the world, and the number of Muslims murdered by Hindus all over the world, the death of Hindus easily Outnumber the Muslims. Starting with the Mogul Invasions to the murder of Innocent Hindus last month. Thus this thread.

I feel that Hindutva doesn't have to be justified to anyone. It's a feeling that rises in the minds of many hindus, it also depends on the enviorment one is brought up in. Rather than trying to Justify it, I'm going to embrace it and move on. (i will TRY not to justify it. ) :P

Reg Hindutva in Tamil Nadu:

I do not agree that Hindutva will not have a strong foothold in TN. When I was in India this march, I saw a significant increase in the number of youngsters who attend the Everyday RSS Shakas, as ooposed to the number of youngsters who attened when I went there in 2004. And this is in Chennai. Other Areas like Vandhavasi, Nagarkoil, even Kovai (Dsath, I don't know what yuo mean about the ppl of Kovai not forgiving Hindutva, after the Kovai Blasts, the number of RSS supporters in Kovai has increased Significantly in many areas.) have an increase in their number. Other southern states, like Andra and Karnataka also have an increase in the number of people who attend their shakas. Norther Support for Hindutva doesn't need to be explained. 8-) I'm not going to argue on this, u can believe it if you'd like, or discard it, it doesn't really matter.

A couple things about The Thread:

*Even if look @ hindutva forces as Fanatics, (I don't) why is it that Hindu Fanatics are getting a tougher treatement and getting curcified, more than Islamic Fanatics? This thread is about Hindu Persecution, and somehow it's the hindu that get blamed for everything. This is what annoys me to the core.

*I don't see why this thread is a result of Saffronizing history. Are you denying the fact that Religious Persecution against hindus NEVER Happened?


If changing the title of the thread to "Islamic Aggression, which resulted in Hindu Persecution." will make this thread discuss what it was meant to discuss, then so be it..I hope Eelavar changes the title to that. :)

[Rohit]

Are you denying the fact that Religious Persecution against hindus NEVER Happened?

If changing the title of the thread to "Islamic Aggression, which resulted in Hindu Persecution." will make this thread discuss what it was meant to discuss, then so be it..I hope Eelavar changes the title to that. :)
Surya, please define precisely what do you mean by Hindus. :thumbsup:

[Surya]

Are you denying the fact that Religious Persecution against hindus NEVER Happened?

If changing the title of the thread to "Islamic Aggression, which resulted in Hindu Persecution." will make this thread discuss what it was meant to discuss, then so be it..I hope Eelavar changes the title to that. :)
Surya, please define precisely what do you mean by Hindus. :thumbsup:

Rohit, :)

In this case: The same definition the Govt uses when taking it's statistics.

People who call and called themselves as Hindus (U know what I mean by calling themselves as hindus, I know the term hindu is new and all, but u get the idea.) and those who worshipped gods who are defined today as Hindu Gods, like Shiva, Ram, Krishna, Muruga, Sudalai Maadan, Karuppu Sami etc.

[Rohit]

Rohit, :)
In this case: The same definition the Govt uses when taking it's statistics.
From where the Indian Government gets its definition, what is the original source of the definition? Is there any definition of Hindus in the Indian constitution? :D

[Surya]

Hmmm..Not sure. :oops: Why does it matter to the discussion, if we're going to use that definition for the discussion? :)

[Surya]

Eelavar,
PURRRFECT!! :thumbsup: :D

[pizzalot]

*Even if look @ hindutva forces as Fanatics, (I don't) why is it that Hindu Fanatics are getting a tougher treatement and getting curcified, more than Islamic Fanatics? This thread is about Hindu Persecution, and somehow it's the hindu that get blamed for everything. This is what annoys me to the core.


Is it very hard to understand ?

They murdered the Father Of The Nation and still justify publicly. If not for The Mahatma there is no "India" as we know today man ! How can you expect India to be lenient on people who have a murderous history. In fact it is time for a genocide of the fanatics. Simple Government bans seem to be very in-effective. Sure anyone can be patriotic and take weapons and parade. But that is when the government is unable to protect the people. What case have you got to let them parade with weapons against 10%population scattered in small pockets who are economically and socially weaker ? Does it make any sense ?

If you are talking about Islamic terrorists, it is a different story. Any one who terrorizes should be treated with the same law. Behind closed doors, some people can worship them as martyrs of freedom fighters and so on. But the Hindutvadis do not even qualify for becoming heroes because 10% of people do not form the government. What are they against ? THERE IS NO REASON FOR YOUR MOVEMENT AND AS SUCH IT WILL DIE. Any success that you desire should depend on the people's ignorance and nothing more. They have to create new issues every day or else the movement is dead. With increase in eduction and awareness among people, your movement will die. There can be even a genocidal action against them by the people.

[pizzalot]

Rohit, :)
In this case: The same definition the Govt uses when taking it's statistics.
From where the Indian Government gets its definition, what is the original source of the definition? Is there any definition of Hindus in the Indian constitution? :D

This thread is "Hindu Genocide" created by the Hindutvas. So let them define Hindus for us. Let them be very specific. Let them tell us who those people are who were killed in the genocide.

Krishna killed Shiva many times and Shivaites still want their revenge against Krishna and his followers.

Shiva humiliated and enslaved Dhaksha and Dhaksha's supporters want their share of revenge. Descendants of Sukhriva want their share of revenge against those who depicted them as monkeys.

Descendants of Ravana want their share of revenge against Ram who could have been only a petty king not significant enough to be recorded in the history. Ravana is described as a great king and his country is described as well forted, his people are well civilized and cultured and there was no Ram or Sita in their story. In every way their description seems to be very realistic. Mr. Ram's nation is described as no bigger than a village and yet it is the whole world for those who wrote about him. They claim an encounter with Ravana and killing him btw. Should the relatives of Ravana not take their revenge against those who wrote and worship this village-boy ? They belive these people have been force converted into Ram worship at the end of the sword.

Then there are Dhuryodhan worshipers , like me, who want to take their revenge on Krishna and his followers. In everyway Dhuryodhan is our hero. He was a great adminstrator and never fell short of being a good ruler. He had the best brains of those days to advice him. People had no grievances and were very happy. He had demonstrated excellent overseas relationships with other states like Orissa, Andhra and Karnataka. Bhishma himself who was the rightful heir to the throne was with him. He did not let the Pandavas rule because they were very intolerant to "inferior" humans like chariot drivers. They lived a luxurious life in Indraprasta while their people lived in forests. And this man Krishna supports these Pandavas. His people rewrite history, copy the Buddhist scriptures and re-tell it in bogus Mahabharat versions as Krisha's own Gita. I would myself like a genocidal action on them as they still continue their old habit of re-writing the history.

Now there are people like Rohit who say the central theme of Hinduism is Karma which blames people's status in this world for their sins. A low caste man is born so because of his sins in the previous birth and so their condition is very much justifiable. The in-laws blame the widow's sins in her previous birth for taking the life of the husband and her birth as a woman itself is a reult of her Karmic sins in her previous births she deserveds to be burnt and owned and all the BS ! The women, sudras and the animals want to take their revenge on those who insulted them.

IF YOU CALL ALL OF US AS HINDUS, WE FEEL THAT YOU ARE FORCE CONVERTING US INTO SOME UNKNOWN RELIGION.

[arul_satish]

Hey Guys,
You all forget one thing when talking about minorities...There are many hindu minorities throughout the world including Arab countries. So when you go allout against minorities in India, please remember your own countrymen are living in another country as minorities. So tolerance should be the word and not intolerance.

Our leaders know this... that's why they try to protect the minorities. It may sound a little selfish...

[selvakumar]

This title is even more provocative ! :oops:
Wondering how MODS have spared this one ! :(

[Surya]

Arul, :)
No one here is all out against minorities to begin with. :)

Selva,

What is provocative? Weren't Hindus Being Persecuted for their religion a result of the Islamic/Mogul Invasions in India? :huh:

[dsath]

Since the whole thread started on the basis of Francois Gautier's book, here is an article abt the same. Hope it opens some eyes.
http://www.hinduonnet.com/thehindu/mp/2003/09/08/stories/2003090801870300.htm

[alwarpet_andavan]

This title is even more provocative ! :oops:
Wondering how MODS have spared this one ! :(

Exactly!!!
The mods look like Hindutva and casteist apologists themselves.
"No casteist or religious bashings please", they would say but Islam bashing is fine for them :banghead: :banghead:

[Surya]

Talking about a portion of Indian History is Islam Bashing?! :banghead: How do u guys come up with this stuff?? :roll: And why the hell are you bringing in chaste into all of this? Who was being Castiest? :?

Why don't you go back and take a look @ who brought Hindutva into this in the first place! :roll:

Also take a look @ who was being discussed before Hindutva was brought in! It was Mainly Mogul Kings and the Kashmiri Terrorists! :roll:

NOW:

IS IT POSSIBLE TO DEBATE TO DISCUSS A SECT OF INDIAN HISTORY IN THIS FORUM? WHY IS THIS TOPIC FROWNED UPON IN THIS SECTION? :banghead:

IF WE SAY THAT WE WILL NOT MAKE ANY REFERENCES TO PRESENT DAY MUSLIMS, WILL YOU STILL HAVE A PROB WITH THE TOPIC?

WHY WOULD THIS TOPIC OFFEND MINORITIES IF THEY THOUGHT THAT THE MOGUL KINGS WERE BARBARIC IN TREATING HINDUS??

Please answer these questions before you try to STEER this debate into a different Direction in which you people seem to be excellent in doing. PLEASE!!

[kannannn]

I feel that Hindutva doesn't have to be justified to anyone. It's a feeling that rises in the minds of many hindus, it also depends on the enviorment one is brought up in. Rather than trying to Justify it, I'm going to embrace it and move on. (i will TRY not to justify it. ) :P
Well, heart rules over mind!. All discussions are futile if no one justifies his/her stand. If everyone is cosy in their own beliefs, unwilling to give a thought to others' points and arguments, what is the need of this thread? Remember reading this somewhere - When the master is asked why he doesn't debate with anyone, he replies:"what people look for in debates are points that strengthen their own beliefs rather than points that may cast a doubt on their beliefs and force them to question themselves".

[selvakumar]

Selva,

What is provocative? Weren't Hindus Being Persecuted for their religion a result of the Islamic/Mogul Invasions in India? :huh:

Surya :)
There were so many invasions on India.. Be it from the west or from the other side. but this title makes everyone feel as if India was invaded only by Muslims.
Then what can you say about the western people. Atleast, the invading by Muslims didn't had its presence on every province of India whereas the western invasion was quite atrocious.!
So, Considering that, I feel that this thread had been renamed just to
"Bash Muslims alone for everything and to project them alone in this"

P.S: I request the MODS to rename this thread or do the needful !

[Eelavar]

selva,

In fact no other invasions was bloody and destructor as the islamic invasions in India.. It is surely the biggest destruction caused to Humans without looking his color or religion..

This subject is so important for the world history not only Hindus..

[dsath]

selva,

In fact no other invasions was bloody and destructor as the islamic invasions in India.. It is surely the biggest destruction caused to Humans without looking his color or religion..

This subject is so important for the world history not only Hindus..
So much more important because Francois Gautier thinks so too . :?

[Eelavar]

dsath,


So much more important because Francois Gautier thinks so too .

Have you already read the book ?

Gautier is not the sole who think and say that !
Look what Danielou and Koenraad Elst , two indologists, say !

Look even Sri Aurobindo one of our greatest modern philosopher !

Indians are the worst people when they must blame and condemn a crime !

[Rohit]

Hmmm..Not sure.
Exactly that is what the point is. There is no technical definition of Hindu in the Indian Constitution.

However, there is judicial definition of Hinduism given by the Indian Supreme Court in 1966. The first criterion is 'Acceptance of the Vedas with reverence as the highest authority in religious and philosophic matters.'

Irrespective of whether the Vedas recognise the term 'Hindu' or not, which it doesn't anyway, the law of karma and the doctrine of reincarnation nullifies whatever the claims of "Genocide of Hindus" or "Islamic Invasions! Hindus Persecutions!" are made. According to the defined Hinduism itself, all kinds of sufferings and tortures, whether they are caused through invasions, genocide or persecution, are attributable to the bad karma of the past.

If that is what it eventually comes to, why a true Hindu should shy away from accepting what he truely believes is the truth as preached?


Why does it matter to the discussion, if we're going to use that definition for the discussion?
Which definition are you talking about Surya? So far, I have neither seen nor read any definition of the Hindu anywhere.

If there is no definition of Hindu, then it is much easier for someone to misuse the terminology and misapply where it is absolutely unfit for purpose. The whole scenario becomes much more prone to unfair bias and distortion by the one who talks so much about X but doesn't know what X exactly means!

Anyway, it does matter and it doesn't, depending on what purpose one wants serve through such discussions. It does matter if one truly wants to know what were the real causes behind all these perceived effects. It doesn't matter if people simply wants to sweep all relevant facts, situations and detrimental factors under the carpet and blame others for the hopeless consequences brought up by nothing else but the heedless and nonsensical acts of the past (read it as bad karma). :) :thumbsup:

[dsath]

dsath,


So much more important because Francois Gautier thinks so too .

Have you already read the book ?

Gautier is not the sole who think and say that !
Look what Danielou and Koenraad Elst , two indologists, say !

Look even Sri Aurobindo one of our greatest modern philosopher !

Eelavar, i don't care what 'indologists' think or feel abt India. These Indologits are not Indians, even though they have lived in India and know a lot abt India. Do we always require outsiders to dictate what is important/unimportant for us? Their relationship with India esp Gautier's work reminds me of Hitler's views abt India.
Did Sri Arubindo say that Hindus have been persecuted a lot and we have to continually remind ourselves abt it?


Indians are the worst people when they must blame and condemn a crime !
Eelvar compassion and change is what enabled India to carry on her culture. Whenever there were twists and bends we adapted and adopted suitably.
While other old civilizations have died, Indian civilization continues to evolve and flourish. If we start on the road of intolerance and blame game then we are sure to join the other older civilizations. If not today, its bound to happen tomorrow.
Despite many inadequacies (which pizzalot has written a lot abt) i am sure we will continue to reform and survive if we abstain from embracing extremists/fundamentalists.
We have had many reformists who have been successful in the past, what we require is more of them and their sensible voices to be heard amidst all the noise created by fundamentalists.

[Surya]

Rohit,
I was talking about this Definition:


People who call and called themselves as Hindus (U know what I mean by calling themselves as hindus, I know the term hindu is new and all, but u get the idea.) and those who worshipped gods who are defined today as Hindu Gods, like Shiva, Ram, Krishna, Muruga, Sudalai Maadan, Karuppu Sami etc.

On what Criteria does the Indian Census Beurau determine one as a Hindu then?

[Surya]

Selva,


but this title makes everyone feel as if India was invaded only by Muslims.

I don't see how it makes people think that...:?


Atleast, the invading by Muslims didn't had its presence on every province of India whereas the western invasion was quite atrocious.!

True...Maybe we should start another thread to discuss that then! :)


"Bash Muslims alone for everything and to project them alone in this"

We're not bashing present day muslims. That wasn't even the intent of the thread. The intent was to discuss the invasions, and the persecution that the people of India went throught for their religion, along with discussing Kashmiri Terrorism, and other acts of terrorism. :) Has nothing to do with present day innocent muslims. I see that they were dragged into this, but that too only because a certain hubber unneccerily steered the discussion into a whole different direction for whatever reason. :)

[Surya]

we have to continually remind ourselves abt it?


If we start on the road of intolerance and blame game then we are sure to join the other older civilizations. If not today, its bound to happen tomorrow.

In that case Dsath, would it be right to try to avoid discussions about Brahmin Hegemony, and Untouchability since it reminds people about it? Would it be just to avoid and try to frown upon discussions with hopes that people won't discuss them, on the Varna System, and Castiesm?

[Rohit]

On what Criteria does the Indian Census Beurau determine one as a Hindu then?
Like I have said, there are no legal criteria whatsoever. It is up the individuals to declare who or what one is. So, there is nothing concrete laid down in the Indian legal system about Hindu, other than the Hindu Law, which applies to religiously Non-Hindus also and it talks about civil things like inheritance, marriages, caste, SC, CT, BC, OBC and such like issues, I am afraid my friend.

[Rohit]

Rohit,
I was talking about this Definition:


People who call and called themselves as Hindus (U know what I mean by calling themselves as hindus, I know the term hindu is new and all, but u get the idea.) and those who worshipped gods who are defined today as Hindu Gods, like Shiva, Ram, Krishna, Muruga, Sudalai Maadan, Karuppu Sami etc.

On what Criteria does the Indian Census Beurau determine one as a Hindu then?

Yet it doesn't protect or save the self-declared Hindus from the persecutions of the law of karma and reincarnation, does it?

[Surya]

Yet it doesn't protect or save the self-declared Hindus from the persecutions of the law of karma and reincarnation, does it?

It doesn't. But we're talking about Religious Persecution. And Religious Persecution is usually commited on a person because of their religion, or what they call themselves to be. :wink:

Which is what happened in Mogul India. :)

[Eelavar]

dsath mate,

Ok don't think about your ancestors past, concentrate you on the future ;-)

But for me , this research of our past is personal and very important at my own eyes..

Please don't believe all the rubbish i'm saying .. It is nonsense..


Oh last thing dsath, there are two types of indologists, those who don't love India and those who love and admire India.

Max Muller and co are the first type,
Danielou and co are the second type.. :roll:

Dsath is it not you who said me once that western, particulary Britishes were very benefit for Indians ?
You said that they brought education and unity in India . Do you remember ? I do not understand why you are now critising these western indologist born out of India just when it arrange you..

:roll:

Are they not scholars ? With a specific education ?
I can bet you that these men know a lot maybe even more than you and me about our culture.. :roll:

Now if i opened this thread it is NOT TO TAKE REVENGE ON MUSLIMS, but just keep this sad event in the mind of the ignorant Indian... The indian who don't know about his proper past.

I know thay ignorance is present on this forum, because this thread prove well that most of us are not agree with each ones.

And as we know there is only one reality...
So i say ignorance is present in this forum.

P.S: I DO NOT CLAIM TO POSSESS THE FULL KNOWLEDGE ! BECAUSE I'M TOO AN IGNORANT, THERE IS NOTHING BAD TO ACCEPT THIS FACT...

[selvakumar]

selva,

In fact no other invasions was bloody and destructor as the islamic invasions in India.. It is surely the biggest destruction caused to Humans without looking his color or religion..

This subject is so important for the world history not only Hindus..

Beg to differ. Invasion..Itself brings destruction, demolition and every ugly thing. It is a sin to blame Islam alone for the genocide of Hindus. Just coz of the fact that a handful of Muslim kings invasion on INdia, does that mean we have to name everything as "Islamic"

Please rename the thread as:

"FOREIGN INVASIONS AND <WHATSOEVER YOU WOULD LIKE TO HAVE>"

This general term is provocative as if our Indian cousins have not done anything cruel for the Islamic world.

[pizzalot]

selva,

In fact no other invasions was bloody and destructor as the islamic invasions in India.. It is surely the biggest destruction caused to Humans without looking his color or religion..

This subject is so important for the world history not only Hindus..

No, the biggest genocide ever known is the Genocide Of The Dasayus by the Vedics.

I quoted a vedic hymn which describes the killing of 60,000 local hosts in one slot for practicing non-vedic religion. Such hymns are even today revered as sacred. Considering the huge volume of the white Aryan inflush and the native dasayus population spreading the entire India, I would estimate atleast 10 million slaying of the Dasayus.

If the vedics were Hindus, then Hindus were historically intolerant and so what if there was a genocide on Hindus ?

If the vedics were not Hindus, then why are we not discussing the Genocide of Dasayus first ?

Can you answer these questions Eelavar ?

[dsath]

Dsath is it not you who said me once that western, particulary Britishes were very benefit for Indians ?
You said that they brought education and unity in India . Do you remember ? I do not understand why you are now critising these western indologist born out of India just when it arrange you..

Eelvar i think you have to read the complete posting before commenting. Can you quote me on that one please?

My views are that, India was never one country before the British came. They just ruled the whole subcontinent under one umbrella because it was suitable for them and we continue the same because it suits us too.

My criticism is towards the Euro-Centric approach taken by these 'Indologists' in reading our History. Esp Gautier's work (well at least most of it) is very selective exploration of India's past and present and hence misses out the bigger picture.

[dsath]

[tscii:63bf4dee16]

we have to continually remind ourselves abt it?


If we start on the road of intolerance and blame game then we are sure to join the other older civilizations. If not today, its bound to happen tomorrow.

In that case Dsath, would it be right to try to avoid discussions about Brahmin Hegemony, and Untouchability since it reminds people about it? Would it be just to avoid and try to frown upon discussions with hopes that people won't discuss them, on the Varna System, and Castiesm?
Surya, this is case between moving forward Vs stuck in the present Vs going backwards. Its up to us to choose what we want to.

What the saffron brigade is trying to do is to throw a carpet over our wonderful cultural diversity. What happens when all of the country is 'Hindu'? Are we all one and the same then? Then the difference based on language, ethnicity and what not will come to the front.
The USSR attempted to gloss over the vast cultural diversity in the name of communism.
The saffron brigade attempts do just that under different pretext, in the name of religion.
Should we not learn from the Soviet experience, that this is not going to last.
The present India at least recognizes the cultural diversity we have and that’s the reason why despite corrupt politicians and hopeless bureaucracy we are still standing as one country.
Whatever happened to unity in diversity?[/tscii:63bf4dee16]

[pizzalot]

dsath mate,

Ok don't think about your ancestors past, concentrate you on the future ;-)

But for me , this research of our past is personal and very important at my own eyes..

Please don't believe all the rubbish i'm saying .. It is nonsense..


Oh last thing dsath, there are two types of indologists, those who don't love India and those who love and admire India.

Max Muller and co are the first type,
Danielou and co are the second type.. :roll:

Dsath is it not you who said me once that western, particulary Britishes were very benefit for Indians ?
You said that they brought education and unity in India . Do you remember ? I do not understand why you are now critising these western indologist born out of India just when it arrange you..

:roll:

Are they not scholars ? With a specific education ?
I can bet you that these men know a lot maybe even more than you and me about our culture.. :roll:

Now if i opened this thread it is NOT TO TAKE REVENGE ON MUSLIMS, but just keep this sad event in the mind of the ignorant Indian... The indian who don't know about his proper past.

I know thay ignorance is present on this forum, because this thread prove well that most of us are not agree with each ones.

And as we know there is only one reality...
So i say ignorance is present in this forum.

P.S: I DO NOT CLAIM TO POSSESS THE FULL KNOWLEDGE ! BECAUSE I'M TOO AN IGNORANT, THERE IS NOTHING BAD TO ACCEPT THIS FACT...

If all you wanted was academic research or philanthropic motives and not political, then you will have to rename this thread as "Genocides in India", where-in we can discuss all genocides that have taken place.

The original thread was Genocide Of Hindus which itself shows your political motives. Now the new name is even more fanatic and political.

[Rohit]

It doesn't.
Well, that does establishe something for you to ponder over and explore its wider and deeper implications over the whole issue and see how all these fragmented pieces of information fit together. :D


But we're talking about Religious Persecution. And Religious Persecution is usually committed on a person because of their religion, or what they call themselves to be.
The persecutions or genocide are never committed on religions themselves, simply because they are intangible and conceptual entities. One can never catch a religion and physically kill it. Religions do not act; it is the followers of religion who act. Therefore, it follows that the law of karma and reincarnation are only applicable to the one who acts and not to the religion.

And as far as Hinduism is concerned, it strongly asserts that no karma goes without consequences. Every consequence has its own karmic history behind it. There simply is no first cause for the karmic deeds. A true Hindu can only hope to empty his karmic account of bad karma in his present life, for any action that qualifies for bad karma, carries dire consequences. There simply is no immunity against bad karma. Therefore, whether it is a religious persecution committed on a person or genocide committed on the masses, they all are the consequences and the they all are attributable to personal or collective bad karma. That is what happened in the past, that is what is happening in the present and that is what may happen in the future if one goes by the law of karma and reincarnation. :) :thumbsup:

[Rohit]

I know thay ignorance is present on this forum, because this thread prove well that most of us are not agree with each ones.
Dear Eelavar,
Perhaps you are not aware of the liar's paradox, let me tell you how a liar can create a paradox, which is not agreeable on any account.

One doesn't have to agree to a liar when the liar keeps saying that what he is telling is absolutely true and not lies.

A few more examples on disagreement:

- All living being on the planet being not realists is a disagreement.
- All living being on the planet being not idealists is a disagreement.
- All living being on the planet being not sceptics is a disagreement.
- All living being on the planet being not Jainas is a disagreement.
- All living being on the planet being not Buddhists is a disagreement.
- All living being on the planet being not believers is a disagreement.
- All living being on the planet being not Hindus is a disagreement.
- All living being on the planet being not Jews is a disagreement.
- All living being on the planet being not Christians is a disagreement.
- All living being on the planet being not Muslims is a disagreement.

And a few more examples on agreement:

- All agreeing realists cannot claim that only they possess true knowledge and the rest is ignorance
- All agreeing idealists cannot claim that only they possess true knowledge and the rest is ignorance
- All agreeing sceptics cannot claim that only they possess true knowledge and the rest is ignorance
- All agreeing Jainas cannot claim that only they possess true knowledge and the rest is ignorance
- All agreeing Buddhists cannot claim that only they possess true knowledge and the rest is ignorance
- All agreeing Believers cannot claim that only they possess true knowledge and the rest is ignorance
- All agreeing Hindus cannot claim that only they possess true knowledge and the rest is ignorance
- All agreeing Jews cannot claim that only they possess true knowledge and the rest is ignorance
- All agreeing Christians cannot claim that only they possess true knowledge and the rest is ignorance
- All agreeing Muslims cannot claim that only they possess true knowledge and the rest is ignorance

So, neither disagreement can be the criterion for ignorance nor agreement can be the criterion for knowledge.


And as we know there is only one reality...
Knowledge for one is ignorance for others, ignorance for one is knowledge for others and the aggregate of both is cognition for all, and that is what the reality is.


So i say ignorance is present in this forum.
Not being able to grasp the extent of dichotomy surely amounts to gross ignorance.


P.S: I DO NOT CLAIM TO POSSESS THE FULL KNOWLEDGE ! BECAUSE I'M TOO AN IGNORANT, THERE IS NOTHING BAD TO ACCEPT THIS FACT...
Your confession is indeed much appreciable
However, the above statement of yours contradicts your previous statement "And as we know there is only one reality... " :D :thumbsup:

[pizzalot]

I know thay ignorance is present on this forum, because this thread prove well that most of us are not agree with each ones.
Dear Eelavar,
Perhaps you are not aware of the liar's paradox, let me tell you how a liar can create a paradox, which is not agreeable on any account.

One doesn't have to agree to a liar when the liar keeps saying that what he is telling is absolutely true and not lies.

A few more examples on disagreement:

- All living being on the planet being not realists is a disagreement.
- All living being on the planet being not idealists is a disagreement.
- All living being on the planet being not sceptics is a disagreement.
- All living being on the planet being not Jainas is a disagreement.
- All living being on the planet being not Buddhists is a disagreement.
- All living being on the planet being not believers is a disagreement.
- All living being on the planet being not Hindus is a disagreement.
- All living being on the planet being not Jews is a disagreement.
- All living being on the planet being not Christians is a disagreement.
- All living being on the planet being not Muslims is a disagreement.

And a few more examples on agreement:

- All agreeing realists cannot claim that only they possess true knowledge and the rest is ignorance
- All agreeing idealists cannot claim that only they possess true knowledge and the rest is ignorance
- All agreeing sceptics cannot claim that only they possess true knowledge and the rest is ignorance
- All agreeing Jainas cannot claim that only they possess true knowledge and the rest is ignorance
- All agreeing Buddhists cannot claim that only they possess true knowledge and the rest is ignorance
- All agreeing Believers cannot claim that only they possess true knowledge and the rest is ignorance
- All agreeing Hindus cannot claim that only they possess true knowledge and the rest is ignorance
- All agreeing Jews cannot claim that only they possess true knowledge and the rest is ignorance
- All agreeing Christians cannot claim that only they possess true knowledge and the rest is ignorance
- All agreeing Muslims cannot claim that only they possess true knowledge and the rest is ignorance

So, neither disagreement can be the criterion for ignorance nor agreement can be the criterion for knowledge.


And as we know there is only one reality...
Knowledge for one is ignorance for others, ignorance for one is knowledge for others and the aggregate of both is cognition for all, and that is what the reality is.


So i say ignorance is present in this forum.
Not being able to grasp the extent of dichotomy surely amounts to gross ignorance.


P.S: I DO NOT CLAIM TO POSSESS THE FULL KNOWLEDGE ! BECAUSE I'M TOO AN IGNORANT, THERE IS NOTHING BAD TO ACCEPT THIS FACT...
Your confession is indeed much appreciable
However, the above statement of yours contradicts your previous statement "And as we know there is only one reality... " :D :thumbsup:

:thumbsup:

[pizzalot]

Somehow Eelavar seems to understood that there is Only One Truth, One Reality, One Religion, One Race, One Soul and so on.

The real problem comes when others start quoting that for their truth, their reality, their religion, their race and their soul.

Eelavar, please acknowledge the political overtones on this topic.

See Surya, though he started with the posts encrypting Hindutva ideology, had simply come-out in the open when his Hindutva burkha was attacked.

In several places you said the alleged genocide by the muslims is the greatest ever. How did you arrive at that ?

[Surya]

Dsath, :)

Why are you going back to the Saffron Brigade? I didn't even mention them in that post.

U said:

* we have to continually remind ourselves abt it?

* If we start on the road of intolerance and blame game then we are sure to join the other older civilizations. If not today, its bound to happen tomorrow.


So I said:

* In that case Dsath, would it be right to try to avoid discussions about Brahmin Hegemony, and Untouchability since it reminds people about it? Would it be just to avoid and try to frown upon discussions with hopes that people won't discuss them, on the Varna System, and Castiesm?

Please explain what u meant by moving forward vs Being Stuck, vs Moving Backward....If we aren't going to discuss islamic invasions, and mass murder of hindus for their religion because we should not constantly remind ourselves....shouldn't htat also apply to every part of Indian History which is unpleasant? Including Castiesm? That's all I asked. I don't see how the Saffron Brigade has anything to do with that post. :)

[Surya]

The persecutions or genocide are never committed on religions themselves, simply because they are intangible and conceptual entities. One can never catch a religion and physically kill it. Religions do not act; it is the followers of religion who act. Therefore, it follows that the law of karma and reincarnation are only applicable to the one who acts and not to the religion.

So u suggest that we take off "Islamic" from the title and upt in Mogul or Muslim? Would that draw the line between The religion commiting the persection and those who follow it commiting the persecution?



And as far as Hinduism is concerned, it strongly asserts that no karma goes without consequences. Every consequence has its own karmic history behind it. There simply is no first cause for the karmic deeds. A true Hindu can only hope to empty his karmic account of bad karma in his present life, for any action that qualifies for bad karma, carries dire consequences. There simply is no immunity against bad karma. Therefore, whether it is a religious persecution committed on a person or genocide committed on the masses, they all are the consequences and the they all are attributable to personal or collective bad karma. That is what happened in the past, that is what is happening in the present and that is what may happen in the future if one goes by the law of karma and reincarnation.

What are you getting at Rohit? Are you sayign that these people who had their eyes dug out bu Mogul Kinds, those were were murdered by mogul kings had it coming due to their "bad karma"? :)

But this thread wasn't about justifying anything, or anyone to anything or anyone. It was just supposed to be a discussion about Historical Facts.

[P_R]

But this thread wasn't about justifying anything, or anyone to anything or anyone. It was just supposed to be a discussion about Historical Facts. Right. I think that trying to define "Hindu" and analyzing the philosophical aspects of the defintion - interesting as they may be - are peripheral to this discussion and have served to derail this thread considerably. We could start a separate thread about the definition of a Hindu, Free will vs. Karma etc.

I don't think they say anywhere that Hindus (however one chooses to define them) were the only group to be at the receiving end. This thread deals with instances in history where they happened to be at the receiving end, that is all. And we can lay bare our sources and discuss the historical accuracy of the information posted.

I didn't see any Islam bashing in the posts.And as far as the title goes we can keep changing it till we reach: "A wee little squibble between brethren" , but as long as we move forward with the discussion it's fine. But as of now I think we are stagnating. Surya,Eelavar please go on.

[kannannn]

PR, I too don't have a problem with the discussion of historical aspects. But problems creep in only when the thread takes a tone of agression against a particular community. What started of as hindu persecution in pre-independent India, branched off into attacks on Hindus today. When a discussion was offered on the cause-effect analysis of present day animosities, it was not taken. Infact, no justification for their convictions were presented, and it was openly said so. What is the use of this thread then? Debate is a two way street.

[Surya]

Debate is a two way street alright, but things only took a turn in the discussion when Hindutva was suddenly brought in bu one hubber, complelty out of the blue...

That's Absurd. That's like discussing Hitler's Mien Kamph and his theory on Aryans when talking about Slavery in the US, when initially (for about 200 years) slavery was just a pure Economical thing rather than any idea of Racial Supremacy, even though that's what it turned out to be later on.


So I think, that as long as Hindutva, or sudden misdirection of the topic to blame hindus in modern india doesn't arise, the debate will be fine.

Why that hubber brought in a Post about hindutva (Filled with Exclamation marks I might add) when talking about Mogul Kings is still a ? to me.

This thread is about Mogul Atrocities...why bring in Hindutva?

[pizzalot]

The topic was simply "Genocide Of The Hindus" . But almost everyone was discussing the agression by muslims.

No one went in to analyze who was the black sheep who arrived several thousand years before the foreigners arrived, who invited the neighboring kings to invade the host country, shared the power after they succumbed local host who had hitherto provided shelter for them. It is the very same people today who talk about Hindutva to divert the atttention of the people from analyzing this fact.

Before muslims arrived they had successfuly evoked such a response against specific people and en-slaved them for 4000 years. It is always the same pattern. To safe-guard their own status in the society they seem to do anything. If they see a state staying secular and peaceful, they would explode few bombs, walk-in Ganesh through the muslim areas, make people fight with each other so they can continue remaining in power.

They did it in the past , they are doing it in the present.

If the people did not respect them they went out and invited the foreigners. Moghuls, Muslims and British were all invitees of these people.

If there is something to learn from history it is just how to keep watch for those cunning parasites of our community who are eager the history is repeated. They plant bombs in trains and public places and blame the muslims and christians. After the ignorant public buys their commnunal ideas, they reinforce their ignorance by claiming the greatness of their vedas.

How even the vedas are allowed to be recited today when everything about it is about abusing everyonelse except themselves ?

I call the Indian Government to issue orders to ban the recitement of the vedas unless a Hindi copy is provided to the devotees who come to the temples. Let them see the greatness of these vedas to themselves. If Koran and Bible could be read by the people why not the vedas be circulated for reading by the public ? Let them follow the vedas word by word while it is recited in the temples.

Have you all frequently heard the vedas are not to be read by yourself but only heard from a guruji so he can convieniently hide the nasty ideas embedded in them? The guruji, depending on your level of education and intellect, will start talking about Atma, Paramatma and One Truth concepts so at the end of the ceremony you will get convinced that it was all from those vedas recited before you in the temples.

I encourage everyone here to read the vedas yourself and know what it is all about. The westerners who are told the greatness about these vedas, invariably everyone of them, get disillusioned when they read it themselves. The call for bloodshed and enslavement is so obvious that nothing the guruji says will render respect for the barbaric verses.

[Surya]

:?

Anywayz, Glad to see that hte title has changed and now we can start talking about the Mogul Invasions and not some outta whack theories! :P

[pizzalot]

:?

Anywayz, Glad to see that hte title has changed and now we can start talking about the Mogul Invasions and not some outta whack theories! :P

I do not understand the culture of changing the title of a topic after the discussion was started.

I am not a veteran hubber. Is it a norm for the hubbers to do so ?
Can the moderators answer me ?

[pizzalot]

Anyway I do not mind the change. It actually exposes the Hindu fanatics who throb all over the net praising Hindu tolerance

[Surya]

Great that you don't Mind Pizza! Appreciate It! :thumbsup:

Anywho.... :roll:

For Starters:

Map Of Mogul Empire. (http://images3.orkut.com/images/album/4/775/7228775.jpg)

[P_R]

They did it in the past , they are doing it in the present. Are you trying to club the "settlers/invaders" 4000 years ago with the people of today into a single "they" ?


No one went in to analyze who was the black sheep who arrived several thousand years before....I don't think that can be attributed to any lack of receptivity. If a thread discussing these aspects starts I am sure it will find a lot of patronage here. But if those aspects are introduced in the discussion of this thread, far being a balancing factor, it starts sounding like they (oops!) had it coming. I don't think that's what you are trying to say.
call the Indian Government to issue orders to ban the recitement of the vedas unless a Hindi copy is provided to the devotees who come to the temples.Hindi ??!! I get your argument that the people should read and understand the Vedas so it should be in "their" language. Good argument, 95% of the people (for example yours truly) don't have even the basic reading of any of the Sanskrit texts.
What started of as hindu persecution in pre-independent India, branched off into attacks on Hindus today. That was avoidable. The problem with any historical discussion (particularly in the Hub) is that one is eager to draw parallels from past to present and jump to conclusions. Even two generations up we can view the people are so removed from the present scenario that no "us" "them" classification is meaningful. When we are talking of millenia apart, supposing any sort of continuity or group-homogeneity is meaningless. I guess we can get back on track now.

[Bharathbhattathiri]

Islamic way to destroy Hindus and all their signs and symbol
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
COPY PATED FROM Memorial of Mistakes CONVERTED KASHMIR
by Narender Sehgal

EXTRACT FROM Chapter 14

www.jammu-kashmir.org/KIN...er14.html

Total destruction of Hindu Temples
(Islamic way to destroy Hindus and all their signs and symbols)

A Bitter Saga of Religious Conversion

These very places of their deities were source of their inspiration.

The demonic gaze of cruel and in human Sultan Sikander fell on sacred spiritual centres of Hindus. Syed Mohd. Hamdani had made Sikander to understand that so long the idols in the temples of idol worshipping infidels were not destroyed, there would be no purpose of conversion. These very places of their deities were source of their inspiration. These very centres may inspire them, in future, to give up Islam. Thus destruction of these places was necessary for delinking fresh converts from their national roots and mainstream. If such places of deities were allowed to survive, inspiration for Indianness will survive. The Sultan accepted as dignified the political idea of Syed Mohd. Hamdani, and became ready to destroy the greatest work of human history and in doing so there was not an iota of civilisation, humanity and wisdom.

Historian Hassan has written that there were many temples during the time of Hindu kings which were just like wonders of the world. Their design and art were so fine and delicate that a viewer would get spellbound. Filled with jealousy and hatred Sikander destroyed these temples. From the material of the temples mosques and shrines were built. First of all he focussed his attention towards Martand temple built by Ramdev.

It took one year to fully damage and destroy this Martand temple. Aflter having failed to demolish the temple totally this enemy of art, culture and godly beauty, stuffed the temple with wooden slippers and set it ablaze. Seeing the matchless beauty of the fold studded domes of the temple getting destroyed Sikander kept on laughing and went on giving instructions for the complete destruction of the temple by treating it as God's order. Stones from the temple's foundation were not spared. It was total plunder and destruction of the temple and the people living around the temple were directed to adopt Islam. Those who did not accept this direction were butchered alongwith their family members. This way people from one village to another were converted into Islam. Even today one gets surprised over art and skill of the builders of this world famous Martand temple by looking at its ruins.

Similarly under the instructions of Sikander one famous temple at Bijbehara, Vijeshwar temple, and 300 other temples around it were destroyed and demolished. Historian Hassan has written that a mosque was built with the idols and stones of Vijeshwar temple and in this area a quarry was built which is called Vijeshwar quarry.

In these state level atrocities and forcible mass conversions Muslim preachers, especially Syeds, had played a pivotal role. The plot for this blood curdling story was prepared by those who were converted to Islam, failing which it would not have been possible for a handful of foreigners and those outsiders who had different religion, to establish their foothold in Kashmir. The result of cowardice and shortsightedness of the Hindus had set ablaze Kashmir usually called a forest of bliss and beatitude. The iconoclast king was of the opinion that if there was any danger to Kashmir in future it could be from these very Hindus. Thus to give a full Islamic shape to Kashmir it was both a "state duty" and "God's order" to destroy Hindus and all their signs and symbols.

[pizzalot]

Are you trying to club the "settlers/invaders" 4000 years ago with the people of today into a single "they" ?

Yes. If the muslims could be distinguished among us, each of us could be distinguished even more.

Sharukh Khan is accepted as Prem in Bollywood but not Rajnikant. If you find this example as crude, then check the DNA studies yourself to see the differences among caste Hindus and others. But beware, the results of some unconducted DNA studies are out on the net.

Even though I can read Sanskrit (it was my third language), I read the verses in English on net. Until then I was told that they were very very sacred and contained everything in the world. It was hard for a "normal" human like me to understand it. If understanding was the only problem I wondered why the Sudras were banned from reading those verses. They could not have followed the theme anyways.

If we are obsessed with these vedas or our religion, what we, really need is Psych-therapy. A Salman Rushdie or De Vinci type of treatment will not be enough to help us out.

If it was not for Lord William Bentinck, we still will be burning Women in pyres with all the rituals and ceremonies with the in-laws, parents and son/daughter witnessing the scene of screaming and suffering.

Sati continues even today in the form of women getting burnt in "accidents" in kitchen. It is always a painful death for the women.

Eelavar raised a point on divorce rate in India being less than the West. My answer: If you counted the number of widows a 200 years back, the number will be a tiny fraction of what you saw in West. Simply the women cannot have a life of their own after divorce, man ! That is the Hindu culture. It is not the dhoti or saree that it is.

I am not opposed to the way an individual worships God. Let them do abhisheks or artis but I am opposed to how they collectively think to dig graves for themselves.

Much of the world is changed to what it is today because of Koran and Bible. If not for these religions, we will have never known a Sati was wrong. So as religion I find they have given this world enough for man kind. Do not even compare them with the vedas, for you will drown in an eternal guilt.

Tell me how am I off the track and I will tell you how I am not.

I am right on track on this thread. If unity among hindus is what this thread is calling for, my point is "why ?". I wish Hinduism was dead the day it was created by Manu.

I am a Anglicized-Hindu and that is what I am. And so would you be too only that you do not accept that fact. Having converted to Anglo-Hinduism you claim that Hinduism is a tolerant religion, where-in in reality, all you are doing is following the teachings of Bible or Koran or Buddhism clubbing with some Hindu rituals convienient for you.

If I show you the real Hindus, you will say they are not Hindus.

[P_R]

I usually refrain from any self-identification in the Hub. But I find the term "anglicized Hindu" quite interesting and I would like to see if I hapen to fit the hat.

I am one of those who is not sure if a Godless universe is actually as scary as it is made out to be. I know next to nothing about "sacred texts" of any sort, attributable largely to a near complete lack of spiritual craving. So I am not in any position to refute or agree with your denouncement of the Vedas. I have read Dravidar-Kazhaga pamphlets quoting schmuck from the Vedas. I have also been to several beautiful discourses by temple-priests quoting left-right and centre from the Vedas. As both parties in question have very strong motives to present parts favourable to them, I am reluctant to make an all-is-good or all-is-bad conclusion about it. Just like everything else I assumed it was a mixed bag.

I had the same experience upon a cursory reading of the Gita. I was really impressed with had some parts which I felt spoke a lot to me. I had some personal doubts about the extent of "equality" in it (very nebulously worded) and I was not completely sold on the concept of karma or salvation. But as I said, it was just a cursory reading.

But it did not shake my very existence that the Vedas or the Gita could be anything but immaculate. Because, as a Hindu I am in no compulsion whatsoever to accept anything.

I can use expressions like "really impressed" when talking about the Gita, I can take what I want and leave the rest. There is absolutely nothing that I have to believe in, or have to do are to me the what being a Hindu is , anglicized or not. There is no the book or the word that would have to be accepted as an error- free immaculate oracle. Every single thing is contestable. Most importantly the fact that I do not have to regard with infinite pity the practictioners of other faiths. To quote the only thing I know in Sanskrit: ""Aano bhadra kratavo yantu vishvatah" ("Let noble thoughts come from all sides" and I think that is from Rg Veda) is perhaps the nifty motto I would condense my religion into.

So do I need to use, or do I qualify for, the prefix Anglicized ?

And as for the DNA stuff, I am rather skeptical of any possibility to "racial purity" even after several centuries of living together. But what I was trying to say is, a man is not his great-great grandfather (even assmuming any racial continuity) so equating them doesn't seem to be very strong.


Tell me how am I off the track and I will tell you how I am not. We can go on and about the nuances of who is a Hindu, true Hindu and so on. Beyond all that we basically do understand that this thread intends to talk about the details Mughal invasions. This does not mean that the invaded folks were a homogenous peaceful bunch where-all-was-well-and-milk-and-honey-flowed-till-the-invasions happened (as is the usual drift in presenting the story of any invasion). Correct me if I am wrong , but it is this supposed line of drift that you sought to prove wrong. That is what I called off-track. Or atleast, jumping the gun.

[Eelavar]

Somehow Eelavar seems to understood that there is Only One Truth, One Reality, One Religion, One Race, One Soul and so on.

No pizzalot, i didn't say that. I said there is only one Truth, so one Reality, BUT it does not mean that there is only one religion one race and one soul, i don't understand how you made this conclusion... Sorry but please don't twist my statement..
:roll:


In several places you said the alleged genocide by the muslims is the greatest ever. How did you arrive at that ?

It sound for me very logical..

North India was (and is always with Kashmir) very vulnerable due to the fact that Islamic people lived in North of India..

Most of those invasions came from this area.

Nothing wrong with that no ??

[Eelavar]

For every one,

For me the real Hindu is the Hindu who pray Christ, Krishna, Allah, Buddha, etc.. Every god is worshipped by a Hindu..

Their Gods are too our Gods..

We reconize the divinity of every avatars..

Now if you don't agree i cannot nothing for you, it is my way of understanding Truth..

God is One but in the diversity...
Hinduism is a Monotheism different of the others..

[Bharathbhattathiri]

Read Hindu Temples: What Happened to Them - from here

http://www.voiceofdharma.com/books.html

[pizzalot]

For every one,

For me the real Hindu is the Hindu who pray Christ, Krishna, Allah, Buddha, etc.. Every god is worshipped by a Hindu..

Their Gods are too our Gods..

We reconize the divinity of every avatars..

Now if you don't agree i cannot nothing for you, it is my way of understanding Truth..

God is One but in the diversity...
Hinduism is a Monotheism different of the others..

I do agree with this, and that is what I am, except for the avatar part. If Buddha was alive today, how would he have felt when people call him as avatar of Krishna and worship him ? Buddha was a atheist himself and everything he said was against the belief in God. But alas, today, he is an avatar of God himself.

Apart from religions , I also learn from sceince. And there is always something in you which makes you realize more than what you read or hear. That is what I wish to cultivate and everyone cultivates.

Anyway you are very close to my views in this post. You seemed surprised in the beginning to hear the Buddhists were a mojority in India, though.

If I misquoted you, it was a mistake. I did not mean to twist your views. Thanks for your clarification.

[pizzalot]

So do I need to use, or do I qualify for, the prefix Anglicized ?


Your confession seems to be in alignment to that of mine.
But I sympathize with you that you were impressed by the Gita's Karma's parts. Probably you were impressed by the style of its narration which by all means is great, I should confess.

Gita and Vedas are not the same. Gita is more of Buddhist idea and style, except the Karma and re-birth parts which are its core ideas though. Gita is the Vedic wolf clad in Buddhist lamb style of narration.

While Buddhists said men suffered because of their desire, Karma says men suffered because of their sins. The concept of re-birth means, all men who are seen suffering in this world deserve the pain and suffering and we should do nothing about it. Even when your concience and instinct asks you to give a helping hand to those who suffer, Gita will remind you that they were sinners after all and need not be helped. And Krishna, in Gita, goes on to the extent of saying it is He who makes them suffer and you have nothing to do about it. This idea pisses every one in the world including the anglicized Hindu, except the core Hindus.

Gita was basically patronized by kings to justify the superiority of certain people over others, the one idea that the Buddhists were opposed to tooth and nail. Gita is like a wolf clad in lamb's wool. The wolf inside is the Veda and the wool is the Buddhist style of narration.

Contrast this to the Christian way of thinking. It says a man who commits to sin will suffer only in hell. So if you see someone suffering in this world you will not associate his suffering and sin. You will help him instead of blaming him for his sufferings.

So you find St.Theresa and other Christian missionaries working among the leprocy and desease affected poor, while the Hindu religious institutions keep them away blaming them for their status and condition.

According to me and other anglicized Hindus, people who are seen suffering in this world are not ex-sinners. They deserve to be helped. It was the belief in Karma and re-birth prevalent in the society which had caused them the suffering in the first place and not their sins.

If you agree with me then you qualify for a anglisized Hindu. :P

[Rohit]

The persecutions or genocide are never committed on religions themselves, simply because they are intangible and conceptual entities. One can never catch a religion and physically kill it. Religions do not act; it is the followers of religion who act. Therefore, it follows that the law of karma and reincarnation are only applicable to the one who acts and not to the religion.
So u suggest that we take off "Islamic" from the title and upt in Mogul or Muslim? Would that draw the line between The religion commiting the persection and those who follow it commiting the persecution?
If your understanding really allows you to believe that religions, the intangible and conceptual entities, can commit genocide or be the persecutors, then, your suggestion for the swap is unnecessary. Else, yes.



And as far as Hinduism is concerned, it strongly asserts that no karma goes without consequences. Every consequence has its own karmic history behind it. There simply is no first cause for the karmic deeds. A true Hindu can only hope to empty his karmic account of bad karma in his present life, for any action that qualifies for bad karma, carries dire consequences. There simply is no immunity against bad karma. Therefore, whether it is a religious persecution committed on a person or genocide committed on the masses, they all are the consequences and the they all are attributable to personal or collective bad karma. That is what happened in the past, that is what is happening in the present and that is what may happen in the future if one goes by the law of karma and reincarnation.

What are you getting at Rohit? Are you sayign that these people who had their eyes dug out bu Mogul Kinds, those were were murdered by mogul kings had it coming due to their "bad karma"? :)
My answer to your question was/is self-contained in the very quote you used:

"And as far as Hinduism is concerned, it strongly asserts that no karma goes without consequences. Every consequence has its own karmic history behind it. There simply is no first cause for the karmic deeds. A true Hindu can only hope to empty his karmic account of bad karma in his present life, for any action that qualifies for bad karma, carries dire consequences. There simply is no immunity against bad karma. Therefore, whether it is a religious persecution committed on a person or genocide committed on the masses, they all are the consequences and the they all are attributable to personal or collective bad karma. That is what happened in the past, that is what is happening in the present and that is what may happen in the future if one goes by the law of karma and reincarnation."

:) :thumbsup:

[Rohit]

I don't think they say anywhere that Hindus (however one chooses to define them) were the only group to be at the receiving end. This thread deals with instances in history where they happened to be at the receiving end, that is all. And we can lay bare our sources and discuss the historical accuracy of the information posted.
Dear Prabhu Ram,

If you care to notice, the initiator of the topic has made no such clarifying statement to restrict the discussion to just listing the specific and selective historical events and exclude altogether the analytical aspects that a proper history must include. If that were really the case, a chronological list of the selected events would have perfectly sufficed for people to make their own judgements.

On the other hand, a true history must cover all "what, who, where, when and why" aspects. :)

[Rohit]

For every one,

For me the real Hindu is the Hindu who pray Christ, Krishna, Allah, Buddha, etc.. Every god is worshipped by a Hindu…

Their Gods are too our Gods.. We reconize the divinity of every avatars..
According Islam, Allah is not a god but the one and only God, a Creator God, who is above everything and cannot be subjected to, or bounded within, any avataras.

And according to Christianity, Jesus Christ was/is a son of God.

Now, if all Hindus worshipped Allah exactly as postulated in Islam, the title of the topic wouldn't have been what it was and what it is now.

From which, it also follows that the unity of God is now broken for a selective purpose to include only avatars and leave out (human) reincarnations for special purposes.

Such hierarchical orders of God not only make Him contaminated with impurities but also divide Him in parts.

Not being able to know the serious implications of asserting contradictory sweeping statements is ignorance.

[Eelavar]

Now, if all Hindus worshipped Allah exactly as postulated in Islam, the title of the topic wouldn't be what it was and what it is now.

I don't think..
The intolerance didn't come from the Hindus who reconize Allah, but from the Islamic intolerance of Hindu's beliefs like worshipping Idols, which is banned in Islam.
For most of them if you are not a Muslim you are so an unbeliever..

[NOV]

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