Jyothisham - The Scientific Calculation

[srivatsan]

The general (mis)conception about Jyothisha sasthra is "it is a myth with no science involved." It is a fashion nowadays to say "hey I dont belive in all this"....

As some (may be many) people who claim themselves to be an "astrologer" start predicting things, which has no credibility, people start thinking that astrology is a hogwash and "Andha Vishawasam" or Mooda nambikkai". If anyone dies becuz of a wrong medication from a person, who claimes to be a doctor, can we call the system a hogwash? Similarly, when a person who doesn't know astrology predicts some thing, there is no guaranty that his prediction will come true....

But, if we look in to Astrology, we can see that it has perfect scientific facts with extensive mathematical calculations inside...This is a great treasure which has been inherited to us by our benovalent ancestors.

In this thread we will discuss the various, scientific and logical aspect of Jyothisha shastra, as quoted in our Puraanas, Ithihaasas and other samhithas...... :)

[r_kk]

"Jyothisha sasthra" is not a science, it may be pseudo science. A simple calculation given at the following link can shatter the entire basics of the so called "extensive calculation"

http://forumhub.mayyam.com/hub/viewtopic.php?t=4841&start=19

[srivatsan]

In the basic lessons of astrology, the sky around us undertsood to have 360 degrees and this has been divided in to 12 equal sectors giving 30 degrees to each...

Each such 12 sectors are given name as follows...

Mesham
Vrishbham
Mithunam
Katakam
Simham
Kanni
Thulam
Vrischikam
Dhanus
Makaram
Kumbham
Meenam...

Similarly 27 stellar constellation called Nakshathram, which has most influenze on earth has been identified and each such stellar constallation is divided in to 4 equal parts and 2.25 nakshatrams are allocated to one Rasi.....

To be continued...

I requested other hubbers to contribute their valuable knowldge and information about Jyothisham....

[bingleguy]

Hi Sri ... i believe that Astro is a Science ....
but can u explain about what was said by r_kk above ?

[mahadevan]

For those who know science Jyothisham is not a science for others it could be science and why not geography ?
use of scientific facts and extensive mathematical calculations cannot make an exercise a scientific one. I can say sun rises in the east and 100 + 100 = 200 and so Srivatsan is a simpleton, is this scientific ? It would be just a unscientific correlation between cause and effect. And if srivatsan is really a simpleton can i be called an astrology expert ?

[srivatsan]

For those who know science Jyothisham is not a science for others it could be science and why not geography ?
use of scientific facts and extensive mathematical calculations cannot make an exercise a scientific one. I can say sun rises in the east and 100 + 100 = 200 and so Srivatsan is a simpleton, is this scientific ? It would be just a unscientific correlation between cause and effect. And if srivatsan is really a simpleton can i be called an astrology expert ?
Mr. Mahadevan, I know how seriously and authoritatively :!: :?: you argue with things....No one will stop you if you are going to call you a scientist...

[manyvan2000]

For those who know science Jyothisham is not a science for others it could be science and why not geography ?
use of scientific facts and extensive mathematical calculations cannot make an exercise a scientific one. I can say sun rises in the east and 100 + 100 = 200 and so Srivatsan is a simpleton, is this scientific ? It would be just a unscientific correlation between cause and effect. And if srivatsan is really a simpleton can i be called an astrology expert ?

This depends on how much science we know :) . Eastern science is way too advanced for western world to understand. If you want to compare, if you believe in Einstein, please refer to Einstein's parallel universe theorem and the light cone. Look at microscopic theory and macroscopic theory. Western scientists are still baffled by the discontinuity between these two. Even Einstein, Hawking, Penrose and others failed to find the bridge between the macroscopic and microscopic theory. But these are accounted in Eastern science. The missing link is what we call aarudam / sothidam or whatsoever. Western astrology is much different and is not science. But eastern astrology is science.

Ofcourse, you can say that the sun rises in the east and 100 + 100 = 200, but you must be able to derive and relate both. There are a lot of calculations involved in astrology. It is not merely some if-else conditions.

Eastern science is based on a lot of observation and knowledge passed through generations. It was not developed in a day. Western science is hardly around 400 years old - too young to compete with eastern science which is thousands of years old.

[srivatsan]

This depends on how much science we know :) . Eastern science is way too advanced for western world to understand. If you want to compare, if you believe in Einstein, please refer to Einstein's parallel universe theorem and the light cone. Look at microscopic theory and macroscopic theory. Western scientists are still baffled by the discontinuity between these two. Even Einstein, Hawking, Penrose and others failed to find the bridge between the macroscopic and microscopic theory. But these are accounted in Eastern science. The missing link is what we call aarudam / sothidam or whatsoever. Western astrology is much different and is not science. But eastern astrology is science.

Ofcourse, you can say that the sun rises in the east and 100 + 100 = 200, but you must be able to derive and relate both. There are a lot of calculations involved in astrology. It is not merely some if-else conditions.

Eastern science is based on a lot of observation and knowledge passed through generations. It was not developed in a day. Western science is hardly around 400 years old - too young to compete with eastern science which is thousands of years old.

Good observation :thumbsup: after my exams are over, I will start contributing in this thread...as it needs special atttention...in the mean time, I req other hubbers to contribute...

[Sanguine Sridhar]

Doubts!
*If a baby borns in places other than India..Say U.S or U.K..What time you will use to design(Right word :roll: ) the horoscope?
* Say an astrologer says that if the baby borns in so and so time or so and so day then he/she will lead a prosperous life then if they Pre or Postpon the child birth..then is it against Karma?
* How far 'Numerology' helps a persons growth? Say calling a person as "Rajaa" instead of Raja...How it works out!! Vibrations?? If Vibrations is the reason..What is the need of using it in your signature? Vibrations deals with sound right??

Sorry if my doubts are kiddish because i am weak but curious in this subject.

Thanks,
Sridhar!

[manyvan2000]

Doubts!
*If a baby borns in places other than India..Say U.S or U.K..What time you will use to design(Right word :roll: ) the horoscope?
* Say an astrologer says that if the baby borns in so and so time or so and so day then he/she will lead a prosperous life then if they Pre or Postpon the child birth..then is it against Karma?
* How far 'Numerology' helps a persons growth? Say calling a person as "Rajaa" instead of Raja...How it works out!! Vibrations?? If Vibrations is the reason..What is the need of using it in your signature? Vibrations deals with sound right??

Sorry if my doubts are kiddish because i am weak but curious in this subject.

Thanks,
Sridhar!

For the first question, horoscope should always be calculated based on the location and local time. Time is a relative measure and depends very much on the location.
For the second, this needs a humongous explanation. To be simple, I shall say "Nature decides what is to happen. We can only observe. We cant change what is destined."
Third: Numerology is a western invention. Though eastern astrology deals with a lot of numbers, it is not based only on the numbers.
Vibrations does help change a lot of things - both physically and psychologically. But adding a character to your signature is not of any use. The way you are called is important, though it is not the only thing influencing your life. For instance, if I change my name to Gates, I am not gonna be rich like him. It, again, is relative to my original horoscope. Actually, my answer to your second question is applicable to this. You wont change your name unless you want to do it. No one can influence you to change your name.
In tamil we call it "vidhi". This is generally translated in english as fate. But english fate is something very different from tamil "vidhi". Vidhi = law - law of the nature. This is what western scientists are trying to find and are failing. The law of nature cant be broken.
This will take more time to explain, as I am unable to do it now, I will explain in detail later.

[srivatsan]

Doubts!
*If a baby borns in places other than India..Say U.S or U.K..What time you will use to design(Right word :roll: ) the horoscope?
* Say an astrologer says that if the baby borns in so and so time or so and so day then he/she will lead a prosperous life then if they Pre or Postpon the child birth..then is it against Karma?
* How far 'Numerology' helps a persons growth? Say calling a person as "Rajaa" instead of Raja...How it works out!! Vibrations?? If Vibrations is the reason..What is the need of using it in your signature? Vibrations deals with sound right??

Sorry if my doubts are kiddish because i am weak but curious in this subject.

Thanks,
Sridhar!

Hi You have longitude and Latitude data for any particular place. With this, local Sunrise and Sun set can be found. Once if this is found, then Horoscope can be easily calculated..

[mahadevan]

If god created man and let him decide his future (this jenma as well as the others, if you belive in reincarnation)based on his karma, this means he has some sort of free will. So the actions of his would decide his future, so continues the path of his soul. If not then god controls/decides his every action/reaction as a set of predetermined steps(which could be predicted by jyothidam or whatever), if that is so why do we have bad things happening around us, is god a sadist ?

[mahadevan]

If god created man and let him decide his future (this jenma as well as the others, if you belive in reincarnation)based on his karma, this means he has some sort of free will. So the actions of his would decide his future, so continues the path of his soul. If not then god controls/decides his every action/reaction as a set of predetermined steps(which could be predicted by jyothidam or whatever), if that is so why do we have bad things happening around us, is god a sadist ?

[Sanguine Sridhar]

Thanks Manyvan and Srivathsan! :)

[ammassridhar]

Hai all

I have started learning this great science. By the Divine Grace, pray that I shall master Thoroughly.

[srivatsan]

Hai all

I have started learning this great science. By the Divine Grace, pray that I shall master Thoroughly.


May Lord Almighty give you all success..pls contribute to the thread!

[srivatsan]

If god created man and let him decide his future (this jenma as well as the others, if you belive in reincarnation)based on his karma, this means he has some sort of free will. So the actions of his would decide his future, so continues the path of his soul. If not then god controls/decides his every action/reaction as a set of predetermined steps(which could be predicted by jyothidam or whatever), if that is so why do we have bad things happening around us, is god a sadist ?

A very good question indeed. There are two things which guides any "Jeevan" that is born on this earth. "Manusha Yathnam" or Free will and the Second thing is "God's Grace". There is only a very very minute line between these two and it is very very hard to find where, free will ends and God's grace starts....One of our great sages, "Valluvar peruman" has told that

"Deivathaal agadenunum Murchi tham
Meyvartha kooli tharum".

We can take it as a good sprit for going by our Free-will. But how do we know what we do is good at or not....? Only for this purpose, Puraanams & Ithihasams are written. Just to guide us, as there is no strict rules and regulation as what ius correct and what is not....as one rule may be correct at one situation and the same rule may be wrong in some other...

But what are we doing with this Puraanams and Ithihasams? We are arguing in which language it was written, Which part of the world, it happened, BC or AD, Tamizh or Samskritham....and wasting our time and resources.

I repeat, Puraanams and Ithihasams are our guide to reach the Supreme Goal - The Brahmam, not to show the supremacy of Samskritham...This I am telling you after few disputes only with interest in other person, as a person who follows Sanaathana Sharmama. I hope you understand.... :)

If you are further interested in understanding "what is Karma?" and what is Supreme Bliss, I would suggest you to go thru' a reading of Bhagawath Geetha (in any language you want), and if your interested in knowing what is good amd what is not good to live a good life, Go thru' MahaBharatham. In thamizh, I would suggest, Cho's "MahaBharatham Pesugirathu". In that, Cho has given a wonderful explanation for several complex situations. :)

[mahadevan]

Hi Srivatsan, I have read all the books that you refered. The point is even God cannot escape his/her karmic deeds(as clearly mentioned in gita), there might be some apparent temporary reprive in the reactions for ones actions , but it is mostly like getting a lower monthly payment by moving from a 15 year to a 40 year mortgage, you are just spreading out your misery by diluting the intensity, you do it which ever way the karmic account has to balance, one cannot escape from it. If Karmic laws are true it precludes prognosis. You are talking about Gods grace, it is very similar to what our saints said, if they bless you whole heartedly they can transfer some bad karma from you on to themselves the same could be a logically acheived by a deep prayer,even if it is true, this again is possible only by the actions (prayer/devotion) as determined by your free will and hence beyond prognosis.

srivatsan wrote:But what are we doing with this Puraanams and Ithihasams? We are arguing in which language it was written, Which part of the world, it happened, BC or AD, Tamizh or Samskritham....and wasting our time and resources.

whatever it be, you have to give the devil its due, false claims need to be set right. For the ones who look at the crux the other 3 P's of the product is immaterial, but for the most the complete product is needed and so we have these arguments, do not forget that you are an active, partisan participant in that discussion.

[srivatsan]

do not forget that you are an active, partisan participant in that discussion.

What discussion you are talking about....and to my knowledge, in any discussion in the Hub, I have been as Unbiased as possible....yes, I tell this from my conscience......Pls correct/quote me if I have behaved as a racist, anywhere....

[manyvan2000]

Hi Srivatsan, I have read all the books that you refered. The point is even God cannot escape his/her karmic deeds(as clearly mentioned in gita), there might be some apparent temporary reprive in the reactions for ones actions , but it is mostly like getting a lower monthly payment by moving from a 15 year to a 40 year mortgage, you are just spreading out your misery by diluting the intensity, you do it which ever way the karmic account has to balance, one cannot escape from it. If Karmic laws are true it precludes prognosis. You are talking about Gods grace, it is very similar to what our saints said, if they bless you whole heartedly they can transfer some bad karma from you on to themselves the same could be a logically acheived by a deep prayer,even if it is true, this again is possible only by the actions (prayer/devotion) as determined by your free will and hence beyond prognosis.

srivatsan wrote:But what are we doing with this Puraanams and Ithihasams? We are arguing in which language it was written, Which part of the world, it happened, BC or AD, Tamizh or Samskritham....and wasting our time and resources.

whatever it be, you have to give the devil its due, false claims need to be set right. For the ones who look at the crux the other 3 P's of the product is immaterial, but for the most the complete product is needed and so we have these arguments, do not forget that you are an active, partisan participant in that discussion.

I guess the misunderstanding here is due to the jargon. To explain in detail may take quite a few posts. So in short,
God = Nature
Free will = Natural laws ( you do something, something happens.)
God's grace / Devil's wish = Singularities ( you expect something, something else happens. )
If you study descriptions of any hindu gods, you can find they converge at some point to a natural force.
maaya = vaccuum / nothing
sakthi = energy ( sprang from nothing )
sivam / vinnum = negative / positive forces ( split from energy )
Now, if you study those books again, ignoring any poetic imagination, you can see all these are perfect description of nature.

About rebirth.. Everyone's thought is associated with a specific frequency, unique like our finger prints. This thought wave, since it is not matter, is passed into atmosphere when someone dies. Mostly, this will be zeroed out soon by nature, sometimes, it just is there. This again depends on a lot of factors like the cause of death, for instance. This frequency might match with someone's frequency, and they may start behaving like the dead person or it might be in resonance with someone and cause disaster.

The most important question till date with western science is the relation between wave and matter. But our science has found some important relation between the finger prints which are visible and one's thought frequency. All mantras, chanting, hymns are only to control this frequency. Of course we cant change the frequency, but can cause a minute shift, which has drastic effects. It is the same principle as applying sounds to a horror movie. If you watch a horror movie without the sound, you wont be afraid (sometimes, it could turn into a comedy :) )

This is becoming too big. so will continue later. :)

[r_kk]

Hi Sri ... i believe that Astro is a Science ....
but can u explain about what was said by r_kk above ?

Hi bingleguy,
Don't expect any answer for simple basic question, from the people who had decided themselves Jyothisham as science. Unfortunately the astronomical knowledge of our ancestors mixed with so many superstitious beliefs and interlinked with religious beliefs. I am eagerly waiting from many hubbers those who are writing here, to start any reliable scientific discussions instead of telling the old stories and myths mixing with pseudo science.

[kannannn]

r_kk, it is a waste of time to expect any rational answers for any of these claims. I can't keep count of the number of questions on which any scientific proofs have been forthcoming.

[manyvan2000]

r_kk, it is a waste of time to expect any rational answers for any of these claims. I can't keep count of the number of questions on which any scientific proofs have been forthcoming.

Any research is a waste of time, if not for the quest of knowledge. If you are content with what you know, of course it is not necessary to study anything, be it astrology or rocket science. These discussions are only for those who think they dont know much and want to learn more. :wink:

[r_kk]

[tscii:8f0886ad57]Rat Joshiyam is a science;
A detail research carried out on poem written by yagahva rishi (lived in 4BC! Who knows :wink: ) proves that rats can predict the earthquake few days before human can sense it. So it implies that rats can feel the vibration of earth as well as vibration of human mind i.e., nothing but bad and good thoughts, (myth making -1 :idea: ). When it picks up the card (ignore, whether it will get rice for every card it picks up) it understand the cosmic vibration (myth making-2 :idea: ) around ones body. So Rat joshiyam can be considered as the valid science and we all can be proud about the wisdom of our ancestors on behavioral studies on animals. Those who want to broaden the knowledge :idea: on “parrot joshiyam”, “malayal mandirikam” etc, don’t be confined with the little knowledge gained in school and college text books. Open your minds :idea: for wisdom of thoughts provided by few hubbers here. :shock:
(I hope no one takes my message seriously! :lol: )

[/tscii:8f0886ad57]

[FloraiPuyal]

[tscii:033f8c4349]Rat Joshiyam is a science;
A detail research carried out on poem written by yagahva rishi (lived in 4BC! Who knows :wink: ) proves that rats can predict the earthquake few days before human can sense it. So it implies that rats can feel the vibration of earth as well as vibration of human mind i.e., nothing but bad and good thoughts, (myth making -1 :idea: ). When it picks up the card (ignore, whether it will get rice for every card it picks up) it understand the cosmic vibration (myth making-2 :idea: ) around ones body. So Rat joshiyam can be considered as the valid science and we all can be proud about the wisdom of our ancestors on behavioral studies on animals. Those who want to broaden the knowledge :idea: on “parrot joshiyam”, “malayal mandirikam” etc, don’t be confined with the little knowledge gained in school and college text books. Open your minds :idea: for wisdom of thoughts provided by few hubbers here. :shock:
(I hope no one takes my message seriously! :lol: )

[/tscii:033f8c4349]

we are not talking about any kind of fantasy josiyams that some use to deceive others. i do agree that most of these are fake and have nothing to do with science. we are talking about the actual astrology. prove it or disprove it, if you have supporting facts. :)

[r_kk]

[tscii:f1aeb51ebf]
prove it or disprove it, if you have supporting facts. :)
Hi Floraipuyal,
I am having difficulties in understanding why you do not believe the forecast by Rats as valid ones. I hope you might be knowing the facts that it is worshiped in Karni Mata Rat Temple and considered as vehicle of Lord Ganesha. I don’t think you are aware of our ancestral story (sorry wisdom!) about the fighting between Lord Ganesha and moon, when Moon laughed at him after falling from his vehicle (Rat). So don’t underestimate the scientific knowledge behind Rats. If Rat is the main reason for the fight between Moon and God, then why can’t it predict Moon’s movement (astrology). Sorry I lost the habit of writing coherently after reading this thread. :roll:

Ok let me come to the point...

Please read my first post (page-1) on this thread which disproves the basis of astrology based on fundamental law of physics (relationship between pull, Mass and distance between multiple objects, effect on confined or unconfined large elastic bodies, scientific studies on human behavior w.r.t movements of moon) and then place your views.[/tscii:f1aeb51ebf]

[FloraiPuyal]

[tscii:9773db3891]
prove it or disprove it, if you have supporting facts. :)
Hi Floraipuyal,
I am having difficulties in understanding why you do not believe the forecast by Rats as valid ones. I hope you might be knowing the facts that it is worshiped in Karni Mata Rat Temple and considered as vehicle of Lord Ganesha. I don’t think you are aware of our ancestral story (sorry wisdom!) about the fighting between Lord Ganesha and moon, when Moon laughed at him after falling from his vehicle (Rat). So don’t underestimate the scientific knowledge behind Rats. If Rat is the main reason for the fight between Moon and God, then why can’t it predict Moon’s movement (astrology). Sorry I lost the habit of writing coherently after reading this thread. :roll:

Ok let me come to the point...

Please read my first post (page-1) on this thread which disproves the basis of astrology based on fundamental law of physics (relationship between pull, Mass and distance between multiple objects, effect on confined or unconfined large elastic bodies, scientific studies on human behavior w.r.t movements of moon) and then place your views.[/tscii:9773db3891]

r_kk,
I can understand your reasoning. In fact, I had these same questions 12 years back. trust me on this. I never believed in these and even till date, I dont believe in stories such as the one that you mentioned. But, ignoring these stories, there is quite a lot of facts in the typical texts. I am trying to learn those. I dont claim I am an expert in both. I am still learning both parallelly and also believe that both are not different in anyway.
I didnt believe in astrology till I started studying science and astrology parallelly. I dont know to what extent you have read einstein, hawking and penrose. I had a question, if light takes such a long time, the stars are not in the same positions as we see today. How, then, can astrology be true? I got the answer in parallel universe theory and space-time.
As I said in my previous replies, both macroscopic and microscopic behavior can be accurately predicted by knowing the relative positions of other elements in space-time. you can refer to hawking-penrose papers on these topics published some 10 years back or so.
It has been recently proved that if a pair of entangled particles which were once in contact with each other, but now totally out of contact, can show random behavior that is strongly correlated. This, called the Einstein-podolsky effect is still the greates mystery in physics to the western world. Ancient texts speak of something very similar to this, which is not possible if they didnt have the knowledge. This correlation, if extended to macroscopic theory ( which still now is not even explained in microscopic theory), this will be a proof that planets or any heavenly body could drastically affect anyother living/nonliving thing.
If you want to mock at eastern science, please mock at western science first. If you are baffled why, try extending quantum theory to macroscopic particles or relativity to microscopic particles. The greatest minds of the west are still trying to even understand why there is a singularity.
In fact hawking once said "nature abhors naked singularities" since he could not prove the existence of singularities despite numerous calculations. He lost a bet of $100 to Preskill and Thorne who disproved his statement and theoretically proved that singularity can of course be created by an "advanced civilization"
This type of singularites are quite often mentioned in ancient texts, though there are not any technical information on how they achieved this. My point is, no one can even imagine the existence of such things without a fair amount of knowledge on classical quantum theory and relativity.
Of course there are a lot of stupid additions to the original texts as later authors started adding their imaginations to them. We have to ignore what is irrelevant and find the real science behind these.
The main reason I believe astrology to be a science is that to the formula to predict the behavior of intermediate particles ( which fall between microscopic and macroscopic), if at all we can find, would have to include the relative location of heavenly bodies, in addition to the particle's historical positions in space-time and current position. eastern astrology is a detailed one, taking into account the exact space-time co ordinates of a person's birth relative to a set of heavenly bodies and from that point, its a simple set of manipulations to arrive at the current state of the person. The knowledge we lack now is, there are few more factors to be considered for accurate prediction and this is the information that I am searching for.

phew.. its becoming huge to include any more detail. sorry.

[r_kk]

[tscii:36ccfd90bb]Hi FloraiPuyal
Good to see your post containing lot of reference to Modern Physics, Quantum mechanics, particle physics, state of particles, Einsteen, Stephen Hawkins etc etc… but unfortunately you are trying to relate all these modern theories and hypothesis to religion, old ancestral knowledge and astrology. I don’t have any doubts on our ancestor’s knowledge on astronomy. Some of the reference in Tholkappiyam and Thirumandiram indirectly relates to theory of relativity. Similarly there are references about flights in Ramayana. But if we start claiming that they had known theory of relativity or aerodynamics in real sense, no one will believe it. Your long message tries its best to connect to extremely opposite points/theories but the major link is miserably missing. If you really want to write the link between astrology and science please write the exact slogans supporting astrology from any of the ancestral work and give unbiased explanation first. Explain the planets considered in astrology and how it relates to day to day life to creatures on earth. Then we can have a healthy discussion (I can also write quoting from Fritjof Cofra, Deepak Chopra works etc etc relating to eastern wisdom and explain how the real (!) scientific views differ from them!)[/tscii:36ccfd90bb]

[FloraiPuyal]

[tscii:4c8b585aae]Hi FloraiPuyal
Good to see your post containing lot of reference to Modern Physics, Quantum mechanics, particle physics, state of particles, Einsteen, Stephen Hawkins etc etc… but unfortunately you are trying to relate all these modern theories and hypothesis to religion, old ancestral knowledge and astrology. I don’t have any doubts on our ancestor’s knowledge on astronomy. Some of the reference in Tholkappiyam and Thirumandiram indirectly relates to theory of relativity. Similarly there are references about flights in Ramayana. But if we start claiming that they had known theory of relativity or aerodynamics in real sense, no one will believe it. Your long message tries its best to connect to extremely opposite points/theories but the major link is miserably missing. If you really want to write the link between astrology and science please write the exact slogans supporting astrology from any of the ancestral work and give unbiased explanation first. Explain the planets considered in astrology and how it relates to day to day life to creatures on earth. Then we can have a healthy discussion (I can also write quoting from Fritjof Cofra, Deepak Chopra works etc etc relating to eastern wisdom and explain how the real (!) scientific views differ from them!)[/tscii:4c8b585aae]

hey r_kk,
I am not trying to prove the supremacy of astrology over western science. Nor did I say that I know everything. As i said, we have to either prove it or disprove it. To do this, we have to study it completely.
Yes I accept there is a missing link, also I confessed that we have lost a lot of knowledge. All I am trying to do is to rediscover the lost knowledge. I am sure it will be extremely helpful to the modern world.

Again, I know and accept that it will be highly stupid to claim something without valid proofs. We have to study more, find out the real facts, bring out the proofs. ( I quoted only the western science facts. I compared them with my knowledge on eastern science. I did not quote any eastern science from anyone. please note that and do not mistake me for someone who googles relation between astrology and science and quotes based on that. I am a sincere student of science and I read hawking and penrose than sidney sheldon. The very book I am reading now as i type this is "Entanglement" by Amir D Aczel, student of Heisenberg. )

I have given my views why I consider eastern astrology as science. This is my theory and it shall hold till it is proved or disproved satisfactorily.

And for your last point, dear, if I knew that, I would be preparing my speech for this year's nobel laurette ceremony. :D

It might take years for my research to yield satisfiable results, amidst my hectic work schedule, but I hope to get proofs soon. :)

[r_kk]

Hi FloraiPuyal,
I appreciate your intentions and wishes to explore the unknown side of science. If you can reach the position to prepare sppech for the Noble laurette ceremony, I will appreciate it. Before going ahead to such high level of macro-micro level physics, parallel universe etc etc, why can't you explain the very simple question put forward by me based on Newtons law of gravity. I also admire the high level of thinking our great Indian thinkers like Buddha and ThiruMoolar, Many Tamil Saivaite literary authors (like siva Nana botham etc) had about universe and uncertainities. But astrology is somewhat different which contradicts with the basic law of gravity itself. Please read my questions given in first page and reply if you can. Let us discuss all high funda's latter.

[srivatsan]

"Jyothisha sasthra" is not a science, it may be pseudo science. A simple calculation given at the following link can shatter the entire basics of the so called "extensive calculation"

http://forumhub.mayyam.com/hub/viewtopic.php?t=4841&start=19

Mr. r_kk, don't you that the Moon's pull is 0.0027N/ 80kg person before reading the link that you have provided.? And do you want some one to explain you that Gravitational Force is a "long range, Weak force" and Nuclear Force is "Very Short Range, very Strong Force"? And do you also want someone to tell you that wave pattern in the ocean changes according to the postion of Moon...?

If your concept of science is something, which is documented in eithehr Greek Or German or English language, being authored by a white Skinned, European or American, then I am not for any discussion or argument with you....I would suggust you, before you start arguing about a point, you better know atleast a bit about what your are arguing against....and your haste conclusion that Jyothisham is not a science as a very first post in this thread revealed your aquiantance about Jyothisham and that is why I purposefully ignored your post.

Jyothisham deals with how earth quakes can be predicted when a certain formation of Clouds appear in the sky.....It also has the facility to predict natural devastations from appearance on colour pattern in Sky....

Jyothisham doest not restrict itself by just predicting a Kuppan's or Suppan's marriage, job or children question....I accept, that there are lot of people claiming to be astrologers, arrpear in T.V and speaks about "Adhrista Kal, Adhrishta Niram" etc.,

I repeat, even if you had the slightest aquiantance about Jyothisha Shastram, you would not have been so arrogant in your posting.....

[srivatsan]

r_kk, it is a waste of time to expect any rational answers for any of these claims. I can't keep count of the number of questions on which any scientific proofs have been forthcoming.

Saringa opicer..... :wink:

[r_kk]

[tscii:924bbcd78d]
Mr. r_kk, don't you that the Moon's pull is 0.0027N/ 80kg person before reading the link that you have provided.? And do you want some one to explain you that Gravitational Force is a "long range, Weak force" and Nuclear Force is "Very Short Range, very Strong Force"? And do you also want someone to tell you that wave pattern in the ocean changes according to the postion of Moon...?

If your concept of science is something, which is documented in eithehr Greek Or German or English language, being authored by a white Skinned, European or American, then I am not for any discussion or argument with you........

Please come to the point and reply to the simple question instead of asking what kind of science I believe or you believe, why I can't get answer to these simple questions etc etc. How do you correlate the celestial positions of planets and mythical object/phenomenon to day to day life of all creatures and non-life forms? Don't convert this discussion to individual level (what I believe or whether I make hasty conclusion just like that or not etc). Your statement on earthquake remembers me an astrologer who made big claims in other thread! Please come to the point. Tell me whether you have any kind of statistics or valid repeatable proofs to claim astrology as science. I had requested many people for so many years and failed to get any such proofs. In micellenous section here also, I requested a famous professional astrologer to give some proof long time back, but till now I haven't get any reply.
http://forumhub.mayyam.com/hub/viewtopic.php?t=3423&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=27. If you can declare “Jyothitam as science” in the title of thread without any valid proofs, I also have the equal rights to start my comment as “pseudo science”[/tscii:924bbcd78d]

[mahadevan]

srivatsan wrote: 'Jyothisham deals with how earth quakes can be predicted when a certain formation of Clouds appear in the sky.....It also has the facility to predict natural devastations from appearance on colour pattern in Sky.... '

Hi guys before proceeding furthur with the discussion we have to define Jyothisham from the above statement it looks like Srivatsan is talking more about remote sensing, Modern science has paved the way to predict certain happenings like earth quakes/Tsunami based on some leading indicators. The simplest example is, if there is an under water earth quake(known after fact) near a land mass than there is a very good chance of a Tsunami, if we install a Tsunami warning system that detects the wave patterns we can get a early warning, this is possible by a proper understanding of 'cause and effect', once the 'cause' has happened we can predict the 'effect' , this is an absolutely rational science. Without the proper understanding of the cause an effect we can only speculate based on empirical observations, some times even such predictions can be correct but it is not scientific. For instance there is a big earth quake 9.0 on the scale near the coast of indonesia (the cause) it results in a tsunami in TN coast (effect 1) people start running towards the land in the coastal regions(effect 2), the govt machineries in TN/India visit the coastal regions in TN (effect 3) based on this empiral observations if I say, when there is a earth quake close to coast in indonesia, officials in TN would visit the coast areas. I would be just making a fool of myself for being unscientific, but guess what my statement would be correct whenever the earth quake is more than 8.0 or so.

[FloraiPuyal]

[tscii:7eced9b28c]
Mr. r_kk, don't you that the Moon's pull is 0.0027N/ 80kg person before reading the link that you have provided.? And do you want some one to explain you that Gravitational Force is a "long range, Weak force" and Nuclear Force is "Very Short Range, very Strong Force"? And do you also want someone to tell you that wave pattern in the ocean changes according to the postion of Moon...?

If your concept of science is something, which is documented in eithehr Greek Or German or English language, being authored by a white Skinned, European or American, then I am not for any discussion or argument with you........

Please come to the point and reply to the simple question instead of asking what kind of science I believe or you believe, why I can't get answer to these simple questions etc etc. How do you correlate the celestial positions of planets and mythical object/phenomenon to day to day life of all creatures and non-life forms? Don't convert this discussion to individual level (what I believe or whether I make hasty conclusion just like that or not etc). Your statement on earthquake remembers me an astrologer who made big claims in other thread! Please come to the point. Tell me whether you have any kind of statistics or valid repeatable proofs to claim astrology as science. I had requested many people for so many years and failed to get any such proofs. In micellenous section here also, I requested a famous professional astrologer to give some proof long time back, but till now I haven't get any reply.
http://forumhub.mayyam.com/hub/viewtopic.php?t=3423&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=27. If you can declare “Jyothitam as science” in the title of thread without any valid proofs, I also have the equal rights to start my comment as “pseudo science”[/tscii:7eced9b28c]

Hey r_kk, I guess I understand your question. Astrology is not a cause and effect science. No, the planets have nothing to do with a person's life. It is the position of the planets, based on which we say something is going to happen to a specific person. It doesnt deal with any gravity or any other physical properties of any heavenly bodies.
This is very similar to curve fitting on real space. We have the relative positions of some bodies, which we take for reference. In fact we can choose any of those bodies, including the position of r_kk, but, in general, it is easier to predict the positions of some bodies like the planets and some stars, since we have observed their behavior and know their paths. I cannot have r_kk as a reference point since r_kk's motion is random to me, but moon follows a constant path and I can predict its position with reference to any location on earth at any given time.
You are trying to mix astrology with some popular western beliefs such as people turning lunatics or werewolves on a full moon day. :lol: Never did we say that because moon is at a point the whole mass will go crazy. Astrology needs a lot of careful calculations and data before we can predict something.
Again, astrology is a science, in which we predict the position/behavior of something based on the relative position/behavior of certain heavenly bodies, that are easy for us to track. :)

[kannannn]

r_kk, it is a waste of time to expect any rational answers for any of these claims. I can't keep count of the number of questions on which any scientific proofs have been forthcoming.

Saringa opicer..... :wink:
Srivatsan, I don't remember passing a curt comment on you before and I expect the same from you. r_kk's question is simple and clear. Quote a few shlokas or whatever and give your interpretation or show the connection between the celestial position of planets and moon and human destiny scientifically. Then I can accept your claim of astrology as a science. As for you thoughts on western science, I am reminded of the thread in the Miscellaneous section on why there are not many Indian inventions in the past few decades. Could our dogmatic attitudes be one of the reasons?


I cannot have r_kk as a reference point since r_kk's motion is random to me, but moon follows a constant path and I can predict its position with reference to any location on earth at any given time.
You are contradicting yourself. You say r_kk's motion is random and moon follows a predictable path. How can you then correlate moon's predictable path with r_kk's random actions?

[FloraiPuyal]

r_kk, it is a waste of time to expect any rational answers for any of these claims. I can't keep count of the number of questions on which any scientific proofs have been forthcoming.

Saringa opicer..... :wink:
Srivatsan, I don't remember passing a curt comment on you before and I expect the same from you. r_kk's question is simple and clear. Quote a few shlokas or whatever and give your interpretation or show the connection between the celestial position of planets and moon and human destiny scientifically. Then I can accept your claim of astrology as a science. As for you thoughts on western science, I am reminded of the thread in the Miscellaneous section on why there are not many Indian inventions in the past few decades. Could our dogmatic attitudes be one of the reasons?


I cannot have r_kk as a reference point since r_kk's motion is random to me, but moon follows a constant path and I can predict its position with reference to any location on earth at any given time.
You are contradicting yourself. You say r_kk's motion is random and moon follows a predictable path. How can you then correlate moon's predictable path with r_kk's random actions?

I said "random to me", not to the nature. Also it is relative. r_kk can move randomly, but again, it would be theoretically, predictable. So, if we can know the exact positions of r_kk at any given point of time, we can use r_kk as reference. The difference is our (predictor's) knowledge and not the limits of science.

[srivatsan]

[tscii:ee889cfe9b]

Please come to the point and reply to the simple question instead of asking what kind of science I believe or you believe, why I can't get answer to these simple questions etc etc. How do you correlate the celestial positions of planets and mythical object/phenomenon to day to day life of all creatures and non-life forms? Don't convert this discussion to individual level (what I believe or whether I make hasty conclusion just like that or not etc). Your statement on earthquake remembers me an astrologer who made big claims in other thread! Please come to the point. Tell me whether you have any kind of statistics or valid repeatable proofs to claim astrology as science. I had requested many people for so many years and failed to get any such proofs. In micellenous section here also, I requested a famous professional astrologer to give some proof long time back, but till now I haven't get any reply.
http://forumhub.mayyam.com/hub/viewtopic.php?t=3423&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=27. If you can declare “Jyothitam as science” in the title of thread without any valid proofs, I also have the equal rights to start my comment as “pseudo science”

I dont hesitate to accept that I dont exactly know the link between planetary positions and human behaviour. I think this comes as an advanced stage of Jyothisha Shastra....For example, when we study how electricity makes a Fan to rotate or a bulb to glow ,in 4th standard or 5th Standard, we are not taught about the different atomoc models or electronic configuration stuff about electron movement....Similarly, in Jyothisha what many of us are taught or aware of is basic lessons & basic formulae.

What happens in reality is many around us, study this basic formulae and claim that they are astrologers and come out and starts predicting.....But the reason why I call it a science is simple....I am not a layman or a Eatern superiority person to claim whatever from Our country is better etc.,...but I have gone thru' the basics of Jyothisham, I am born and Brought up in a family who are quitre good at Jyothisham........and I know what type of extensive calculations are applied. By seeing this, I am able to understand and that there is really something solid when I go a further to the advance stage and that is what I am trying to do.

When I didn't understand Continuity eqyation when I was in my first year of B.E., I was able to feel and understand that there is something solid in the advanced version of this......I continued to study......and now I know what is the real meaning of Continuity equation.....Every subject needs time and practice to understand Research to reach the adanced stage.........and this applied to Jyothisham as well. Researches are already made several 1000 years ago and unfortuanately they are not documented or we are not equipped to understand the Documentation.....The only way to reach the advance stage is.......either to wait pateintly till you undertand it by yourself or to study the available document and try to comprehend the rest........not critisizing at the very forst step when you dont understand the subject........I dont evade, If you think, you want to learn something, you will learn only by putting effort on it, not by throwing questions......or critisizing....!


Prediction is a part of Atrlogy...It is Not the whole Astrology...
[/tscii:ee889cfe9b]

[srivatsan]

srivatsan wrote: 'Jyothisham deals with how earth quakes can be predicted when a certain formation of Clouds appear in the sky.....It also has the facility to predict natural devastations from appearance on colour pattern in Sky.... '

Hi guys before proceeding furthur with the discussion we have to define Jyothisham from the above statement it looks like Srivatsan is talking more about remote sensing, Modern science has paved the way to predict certain happenings like earth quakes/Tsunami based on some leading indicators. The simplest example is, if there is an under water earth quake(known after fact) near a land mass than there is a very good chance of a Tsunami, if we install a Tsunami warning system that detects the wave patterns we can get a early warning, this is possible by a proper understanding of 'cause and effect', once the 'cause' has happened we can predict the 'effect' , this is an absolutely rational science. Without the proper understanding of the cause an effect we can only speculate based on empirical observations, some times even such predictions can be correct but it is not scientific. For instance there is a big earth quake 9.0 on the scale near the coast of indonesia (the cause) it results in a tsunami in TN coast (effect 1) people start running towards the land in the coastal regions(effect 2), the govt machineries in TN/India visit the coastal regions in TN (effect 3) based on this empiral observations if I say, when there is a earth quake close to coast in indonesia, officials in TN would visit the coast areas. I would be just making a fool of myself for being unscientific, but guess what my statement would be correct whenever the earth quake is more than 8.0 or so.

That is precisely where I intended to stear this thread....Jyothisham does the same thing...by analyzing the cause and effect, it can predict some important event.For knowing how Jyothisham links the cause and effect, we need to study more........ that is all........ :)

[r_kk]

Jyothisham deals with how earth quakes can be predicted when a certain formation of Clouds appear in the sky.....It also has the facility to predict natural devastations from appearance on colour pattern in Sky....

Jyothisham doest not restrict itself by just predicting a Kuppan's or Suppan's marriage, job or children question.....

Ok, Srivatsan,
Please read our devoted hubber Mr. Suddhamma's post. He, as a firm believer of astrolgy and based on long expereience in life (more than 70 yrs, I guess) tells entirely opposite.
http://forumhub.mayyam.com/hub/viewtopic.php?t=926&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=222




Astronomy is different from Astrology. .. TWO DIFFERENT BRANCHES of Science.

Only the Astrologers can predict the events ahead, based on Astrology, the Study based on planetary positions in the relevant Horoscope.


No doubt...there are Astrologers who are predicting on the Nations, People as also the whole world...

But how far their predictions have come true in practice... by Reality? Why?

I am fully convinced on the stand of one section of the Astrologers who have established Astrologically... that..

The future of a Country, or People collectively... cannot be predicted... and if done, it is contrary to the sense of Astrological- Science.

The forecast on any person or living-being alone can be realistic and practicable...because Astrology is a Spiritual-Science applicable for any creature having the Athma (Soul) and the Brain comprising of Mind...both of which are Very important in Life.

So Astrology gives much importance to the two planets ... Sun, the Athma-Kaaraka... and the Moon, the Manas-kaaraka...

Not only that much.... Sun is also the Pithru-kaaraka (Concerning Father)...Moon the Maathru-kaaraka (Concerned with Mother)... Then it is needless to elaborate...

.. that the importance of Sun and Moon in ones Horoscope, is as much important as for Father and Mother in Life..

So the Sun and Moon's positions in a Horoscope can do and undo the effects of all other planets..

Anybody can question... if the future of a Nation or its part... or its people, can be predicted, based on the relevant Birth- timings....

...Why not similar prediction for a Tree I planted and a Building founded at a particular time?... Can they answer?

...May be he is able to say, based on his rare Psycho-might of PRECOGNITION...

...and cannot be... based on Astrology.
[size=12]

[kannannn]

I dont hesitate to accept that I dont exactly know the link between planetary positions and human behaviour. I think this comes as an advanced stage of Jyothisha Shastra....For example, when we study how electricity makes a Fan to rotate or a bulb to glow ,in 4th standard or 5th Standard, we are not taught about the different atomoc models or electronic configuration stuff about electron movement....Similarly, in Jyothisha what many of us are taught or aware of is basic lessons & basic formulae.

This is a very wrong analogy. We are taught, and accept, that electricity causes fan to rotate because we have seen it and it never fails (when the fan is in full working condition of course). The same cannot be said of astrology. Is there undeniable scientific proof that astrology works perfectly? If so I would like to see it. I request someone to post the theory of astrology and explain with proof how it works (some examples are also appreciated). That's all I ask.

If everything is predetermined, what are we doing here on this planet?! I am reminded of Amol Palekar's film 'Ankahee', where a doctor poses this question to Palekar's father: what kind of tool is this that predicts what happens, but doesn't prescribe a solution or an escape from what it predicts?! Atleast without astrology a man has hopes that he can correct his situation, but astrological forecasts, without any strong proof, spoil the fun out of living.

[kannannn]

Prediction is a part of Atrlogy...It is Not the whole Astrology...
Pray, tell me what else comes under astrology.

[srivatsan]

I dont hesitate to accept that I dont exactly know the link between planetary positions and human behaviour. I think this comes as an advanced stage of Jyothisha Shastra....For example, when we study how electricity makes a Fan to rotate or a bulb to glow ,in 4th standard or 5th Standard, we are not taught about the different atomoc models or electronic configuration stuff about electron movement....Similarly, in Jyothisha what many of us are taught or aware of is basic lessons & basic formulae.

This is a very wrong analogy. We are taught, and accept, that electricity causes fan to rotate because we have seen it and it never fails (when the fan is in full working condition of course). The same cannot be said of astrology. Is there undeniable scientific proof that astrology works perfectly? If so I would like to see it. I request someone to post the theory of astrology and explain with proof how it works (some examples are also appreciated). That's all I ask.

If everything is predetermined, what are we doing here on this planet?! I am reminded of Amol Palekar's film 'Ankahee', where a doctor poses this question to Palekar's father: what kind of tool is this that predicts what happens, but doesn't prescribe a solution or an escape from what it predicts?! Atleast without astrology a man has hopes that he can correct his situation, but astrological forecasts, without any strong proof, spoil the fun out of living.

See the very first post of this thread!

[srivatsan]

Jyothisham deals with how earth quakes can be predicted when a certain formation of Clouds appear in the sky.....It also has the facility to predict natural devastations from appearance on colour pattern in Sky....

Jyothisham doest not restrict itself by just predicting a Kuppan's or Suppan's marriage, job or children question.....

Ok, Srivatsan,
Please read our devoted hubber Mr. Suddhamma's post. He, as a firm believer of astrolgy and based on long expereience in life (more than 70 yrs, I guess) tells entirely opposite.
http://forumhub.mayyam.com/hub/viewtopic.php?t=926&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=222




Astronomy is different from Astrology. .. TWO DIFFERENT BRANCHES of Science.

Only the Astrologers can predict the events ahead, based on Astrology, the Study based on planetary positions in the relevant Horoscope.


No doubt...there are Astrologers who are predicting on the Nations, People as also the whole world...

But how far their predictions have come true in practice... by Reality? Why?

I am fully convinced on the stand of one section of the Astrologers who have established Astrologically... that..

The future of a Country, or People collectively... cannot be predicted... and if done, it is contrary to the sense of Astrological- Science.

The forecast on any person or living-being alone can be realistic and practicable...because Astrology is a Spiritual-Science applicable for any creature having the Athma (Soul) and the Brain comprising of Mind...both of which are Very important in Life.

So Astrology gives much importance to the two planets ... Sun, the Athma-Kaaraka... and the Moon, the Manas-kaaraka...

Not only that much.... Sun is also the Pithru-kaaraka (Concerning Father)...Moon the Maathru-kaaraka (Concerned with Mother)... Then it is needless to elaborate...

.. that the importance of Sun and Moon in ones Horoscope, is as much important as for Father and Mother in Life..

So the Sun and Moon's positions in a Horoscope can do and undo the effects of all other planets..

Anybody can question... if the future of a Nation or its part... or its people, can be predicted, based on the relevant Birth- timings....

...Why not similar prediction for a Tree I planted and a Building founded at a particular time?... Can they answer?

...May be he is able to say, based on his rare Psycho-might of PRECOGNITION...

...and cannot be... based on Astrology.
[size=12]
Well...this may be the opinion of Mr. Sudhaama and this may be his personal observation.....But I can tell you an event, as a comment to this.....

My father, when he was a begineer in Astrology,(may be when he was in mid 20s), out of curiosity and for a fun, calculated the horoscope of a calf which was born to our Cow, (as he knew the place and time of the birth) and took it to my Atthai's (his Sister's)Father-in-Law, who was a great astrolger, who learnt astrology properly in Gurukulam.

He, after few minutes of browsing thru' the horoscope, told my dad few things for fun, say, the Jatakan would flourish in dairy business etc., said that the horoscope belonged to a Cow :D ..........So, it depends on how much knowldge we have in Astrology.........

This event is proof that Astrology, has something to do with more than someon'e personal life event.......

Regarding the Karakathvam that he has mentioned, it is a bit deep and complicated subject....

as I am struck with some academic works, I hope soon I'll be able to share my very very small knowledge.......

[kannannn]

See the very first post of this thread!
And I thought you have added something in the first post to prove your case!!
I am quoting something you have mentioned in your first post:

But, if we look in to Astrology, we can see that it has perfect scientific facts with extensive mathematical calculations inside...This is a great treasure which has been inherited to us by our benovalent ancestors.
If you are just starting to learn astrology and not aware of the 'advanced' ways in which it works as you yourself have claimed, how do you know that 'it has perfect scientific facts'? I again ask you, please quote these scientific facts with the respective references, to follow up with what you have asserted so emphatically in your first post. I hope you can come up with something unlike the the thread on vedas, where you are still to get your expert to post.

[r_kk]

My father, when he was a begineer in Astrology,(may be when he was in mid 20s), out of curiosity and for a fun, calculated the horoscope of a calf which was born to our Cow, (as he knew the place and time of the birth) and took it to my Atthai's (his Sister's)Father-in-Law, who was a great astrolger, who learnt astrology properly in Gurukulam.

He, after few minutes of browsing thru' the horoscope, told my dad few things for fun, say, the Jatakan would flourish in dairy business etc., said that the horoscope belonged to a Cow :D ..........So, it depends on how much knowldge we have in Astrology.........

This event is proof that Astrology, has something to do with more than someon'e personal life event.......

....

Wow... unfortunately I heard lot of stories like this in this web forum itself. Mr. Suddhamma had also similar experience... I will try to find his old thread of similar stories... What science looks for is valid proofs (not selective individual's grandfather's so-called experience which has not been verified by any scientific methods). Please concentrate on your acedemics and tell more stories when you get time after your hectic schedules...

[srivatsan]

[quote=srivatsan]
Wow... unfortunately I heard lot of stories like this in this web forum itself. Mr. Suddhamma had also similar experience... I will try to find his old thread of similar stories... What science looks for is valid proofs (not selective individual's grandfather's so-called experience which has not been verified by any scientific methods). Please concentrate on your acedemics and tell more stories when you get time after your hectic schedules...

Well.....this event which I had told you is not to convince you that Jyothisham is a science....It is just to express my view, which opposed to Mr. Suddhama's observation......

[r_kk]

Mr. srivatsan,
Who said Mr. Suddhamma contradicts with you on astrological prediction on COWS. He 100% beleives such prediction on animals and all living creatures (he also told similar stories about COW, LION etc). The point he contradicts is your claim on prediction of earthquake/shycolor/cloud pattern etc through astrology...

[srivatsan]

Mr. srivatsan,
Who said Mr. Suddhamma contradicts with you on astrological prediction on COWS. He 100% beleives such prediction on animals and all living creatures (he also told similar stories about COW, LION etc). The point he contradicts is your claim on prediction of earthquake/shycolor/cloud pattern etc through astrology...

I have seen about planetary positions that indictes heavy devastation due to stroms, distructions due to fire accident in a country, and about epidemics too, in a book (Brihath Samhithai).
So I think, that is where I contradict.
:)

[mahadevan]

My father, when he was a begineer in Astrology,(may be when he was in mid 20s), out of curiosity and for a fun, calculated the horoscope of a calf which was born to our Cow, (as he knew the place and time of the birth) and took it to my Atthai's (his Sister's)Father-in-Law, who was a great astrolger, who learnt astrology properly in Gurukulam.

To my knowledge the only parameters that is required to define the horoscope are the exact time and location, the latter is actually not required to be that precise. By your statement srivatsan, you are saying that a calf and a baby can never be born at the same time in a city. Does this not sound ludicrous ? :o

[mahadevan]

kannan wrote: If everything is predetermined, what are we doing here on this planet

absolutely, if everything is predetermined why are we blaming Osama/the perpetrtors of hind kush/hitler or anybody, for that matter why do we praise gandhi/mother Theresa/einstein, they we all predetermined cases as defined by the time of their birth, they had no hand in what they did. why are we wasting our time in participating in this forum or even go to work, just sit back and do nothing if my horoscope has in it that I would get fed I would be. wow what a easy life for every body

[srivatsan]

My father, when he was a begineer in Astrology,(may be when he was in mid 20s), out of curiosity and for a fun, calculated the horoscope of a calf which was born to our Cow, (as he knew the place and time of the birth) and took it to my Atthai's (his Sister's)Father-in-Law, who was a great astrolger, who learnt astrology properly in Gurukulam.

To my knowledge the only parameters that is required to define the horoscope are the exact time and location, the latter is actually not required to be that precise. By your statement srivatsan, you are saying that a calf and a baby can never be born at the same time in a city. Does this not sound ludicrous ? :o

You question seems to be ponderous....but remember, even place is required and not forget the Sunrise and sunset. Only with that data, we can calculate a data called "aadyantham parama naazhigai" which is necessary to determine 'lagnam'.......Two different babies, one born in Delhi and the other born in Chennai, may hav all possibilities of having a slightly different horos....and if you are smart enough, U can identify...

[srivatsan]

kannan wrote: If everything is predetermined, what are we doing here on this planet

absolutely, if everything is predetermined why are we blaming Osama/the perpetrtors of hind kush/hitler or anybody, for that matter why do we praise gandhi/mother Theresa/einstein, they we all predetermined cases as defined by the time of their birth, they had no hand in what they did. why are we wasting our time in participating in this forum or even go to work, just sit back and do nothing if my horoscope has in it that I would get fed I would be. wow what a easy life for every body

Seriously..... I dont understand, which side you are trying to bat.... :lol:

[r_kk]

[tscii:ecfd26d0ca]Hi srivatsan

As usual you are intentionally missing the valid point in Mr. Mahadevan’s post. He asked very clearly that whether calf and baby born at the same time, in a same city/village will be expected to be in a same business in future? How about a cockroach or grass born/came out of seed at the same time in the same place? Will it also live/grow in dairy farm or do something related with milk?
[/tscii:ecfd26d0ca]

[FloraiPuyal]

[tscii:9e31bf2963]Hi srivatsan

As usual you are intentionally missing the valid point in Mr. Mahadevan’s post. He asked very clearly that whether calf and baby born at the same time, in a same city/village will be expected to be in a same business in future? How about a cockroach or grass born/came out of seed at the same time in the same place? Will it also live/grow in dairy farm or do something related with milk?
[/tscii:9e31bf2963]
Thats why most predictions do not work and you get the question if it is science or not. The predictions depend heavily of space time and the more precise they are, the more precise the predictions will be.
most of the present day astrologers are highly making it a business and will not take the pains in being accurate. So they take the approximate time and location, arrive at partial predictions and make money even if some of their predictions are correct. :)

[srivatsan]

[tscii:6e55c77e3a]Hi srivatsan

As usual you are intentionally missing the valid point in Mr. Mahadevan’s post. He asked very clearly that whether calf and baby born at the same time, in a same city/village will be expected to be in a same business in future? How about a cockroach or grass born/came out of seed at the same time in the same place? Will it also live/grow in dairy farm or do something related with milk?
[/tscii:6e55c77e3a]
Hi sorry for a long delay...i was little busy.....

Wel.....I didn't miss any point....now coming to your question.....In Jyothisha Shasthra, there is seperate formulae or prediction method for Mrigas(animals), Pakshis(birds) and Manushyas....even in manushyas, the aspects are differernt for male and female.......thougt u may not understand this....just for the sake of showing an example.....7th place in horoscope is Kalathra Shtanam, which means, the place which is used to predict about a man's spouce....for a woman....8th place from her lagna is mangalya sthanam, which is used to predict about her husband.....

Regarding, a grass and its horoscope, I don't know....and I dont want to put forth what I believe. But logically seeing, Jyothisha Shasthra should have the seperate method for Sthavara(asayaa porul) and Jangama (asayum porul)......but I want to confirm this with some learned person before I commit

[srivatsan]

If you are just starting to learn astrology and not aware of the 'advanced' ways in which it works as you yourself have claimed, how do you know that 'it has perfect scientific facts'? I again ask you, please quote these scientific facts with the respective references, to follow up with what you have asserted so emphatically in your first post. I hope you can come up with something unlike the the thread on vedas, where you are still to get your expert to post.

Well....the calculation of dialy panchanga....the way sun rise and sun set are calculated, the way Grahanam or eclipse are calculated, the way lagnam for a particular horoscope is calculated, the way length of the day, paksha or year are calculated......, reveals that it is scientific and more, mathematical......

(I am aware of all the above mentioned methods, though I am not a Master in doing them)

[srivatsan]

The origianal intention of me when I strated this thread was to share the existing material and knowledge of Jyothisham....but as usual and as expected, it has come here.....I now request people like Sudhaama sir, FloraiPuyal, bingleguy etc., to contribue their valuable knowledge....

[kannannn]

In Jyothisha Shasthra, there is seperate formulae or prediction method for Mrigas(animals), Pakshis(birds) and Manushyas....
Even that doesn't answer the question completely. Manushyas can be subdivided into male and female, and as you have mentioned, the 7th and 8th places can be used to predict the spouses of men and women. But in the case of animals, the number of species and subspecies is mind-boggling. How does the horoscope differentiate between these species and subspecies? As Mahadevan mentioned, any two animals could have been born at the same time and in the same city. How then is it possible to say that the horoscope is that of a cow and not of that of, say, a goat.

Well....the calculation of dialy panchanga....the way sun rise and sun set are calculated, the way Grahanam or eclipse are calculated, the way lagnam for a particular horoscope is calculated, the way length of the day, paksha or year are calculated......, reveals that it is scientific and more, mathematical......
The calculation of sunrise and sunset and eclipses have been done by many civilizations. But my interest is in horoscopes and prediction. How do you say that it is scientific? What is the proof? Just because it includes mathematical calculations, it doesn't mean that what they predict would happen, would it? To put it in simpler terms, how do you explain scientifically that the sun rising at xx hours tomorrow or an eclipse occuring on a certain date would lead to my death on a certain date (I know this is very simplistic, but similar nonetheless).

A few more questions:
It has been accepted by scientists that a baby is virtually capable of being independent by the 8th month in it's mother's womb. So, does the horoscope have to be written from the 8th month? I have also come across doubts on another thread that a horoscope should be ideally written at the instant the baby is conceived. What is your take on this?

What about two babies born on different floors of a high rise building at exactly the same time? Will their life patterns be exactly same? Will they die on the same day at the exact second? If you say that they may not be born at the exact instant, what is the time precision required to quantify exactness? Milliseconds? Nanoseconds?

The origianal intention of me when I strated this thread was to share the existing material and knowledge of Jyothisham....but as usual and as expected, it has come here
My problem, as many other hubbers', is the title of this thread. As long as you discuss astrology from the point of view of religious or personal belief, I don't have a problem. But you can't claim that it is scientific and get away with it without proving.

[Eelavar]

I'm not here to say what is Truth or not, but i just want to say that Nadi Shastra which is very close to Jyothisam give astonishing results !

I personnaly can experiment that !
The Nadi reader said me things that are really happening !!

What proofs need we more ?

[FloraiPuyal]

In Jyothisha Shasthra, there is seperate formulae or prediction method for Mrigas(animals), Pakshis(birds) and Manushyas....
Even that doesn't answer the question completely. Manushyas can be subdivided into male and female, and as you have mentioned, the 7th and 8th places can be used to predict the spouses of men and women. But in the case of animals, the number of species and subspecies is mind-boggling. How does the horoscope differentiate between these species and subspecies? As Mahadevan mentioned, any two animals could have been born at the same time and in the same city. How then is it possible to say that the horoscope is that of a cow and not of that of, say, a goat.

Well....the calculation of dialy panchanga....the way sun rise and sun set are calculated, the way Grahanam or eclipse are calculated, the way lagnam for a particular horoscope is calculated, the way length of the day, paksha or year are calculated......, reveals that it is scientific and more, mathematical......
The calculation of sunrise and sunset and eclipses have been done by many civilizations. But my interest is in horoscopes and prediction. How do you say that it is scientific? What is the proof? Just because it includes mathematical calculations, it doesn't mean that what they predict would happen, would it? To put it in simpler terms, how do you explain scientifically that the sun rising at xx hours tomorrow or an eclipse occuring on a certain date would lead to my death on a certain date (I know this is very simplistic, but similar nonetheless).

A few more questions:
It has been accepted by scientists that a baby is virtually capable of being independent by the 8th month in it's mother's womb. So, does the horoscope have to be written from the 8th month? I have also come across doubts on another thread that a horoscope should be ideally written at the instant the baby is conceived. What is your take on this?

What about two babies born on different floors of a high rise building at exactly the same time? Will their life patterns be exactly same? Will they die on the same day at the exact second? If you say that they may not be born at the exact instant, what is the time precision required to quantify exactness? Milliseconds? Nanoseconds?

The origianal intention of me when I strated this thread was to share the existing material and knowledge of Jyothisham....but as usual and as expected, it has come here
My problem, as many other hubbers', is the title of this thread. As long as you discuss astrology from the point of view of religious or personal belief, I don't have a problem. But you can't claim that it is scientific and get away with it without proving.

As I said before, astrology is more like curve fitting. The more coordinates / variables you have, the more accurate the predictions are.

Also, I did say that these calculations are relative. We need as much detail in any place / time so that the predictions are as accurate as possible. This is why I call it science. you miss a few detail, you lose accuracy.

The exactness is quantified by the size of the form being predicted. If you wanna predict the behavior of saturn, you dont have to be accurate to the mile. But when you are predicting the behavior of kannnnannnn, you have to be accurate relative to that person's size.

The predictors generally assume there could not have been so many births within a distance (this distance based on the predictor's thoughts.), so they generally approximate and this approximation yields a "not so accurate", but still "applicable" horoscope. astrology can be extended either ways to microscopic and macroscopic levels. It is the eastern "theory of everything" based on careful observations and mathematical calculations.

In fact it is very simple, once you have more detail. just like solving a pair of binomial equations, you have n variables at time t and n-1 at time t + x, you have to find the value for the remaining variable.

Most importantly, if my memory is correct, those who practice astrology are banished from getting money for that. This is because, once you think of money, you will not try to take pain in getting accurate values.
It is a very common attitude of Indian geniuses to create formulae, laws or theories without proofs. They never thought of prooving their work, but just left behind their formulae and calculations. The most recent example is Ramanujam (I recently read an article saying ramanujam was a hoax. :) )

your problem is, like some other hubbers, you believe that the westerners are much intelligent than the easterners, as they believe themselves, and any intellectual activity from the east is impossible.
Compare what science says about any theory / formulae..

"A theory and / or formula is valid till the time it is disproved."

It applies to astrology too. If you cannot disprove it, it is still a valid proof that the theory is true.
( any formula can be disproved by approximation or looking at the wrong way. try to disprove astrology by applying correct values and getting the wrong results. not the 1 = 0 sort of thing, done by some jerks around the net. quote with real scientists, please. :) )

[srivatsan]

How does the horoscope differentiate between these species and subspecies? ......
How then is it possible to say that the horoscope is that of a cow and not of that of, say, a goat.

Is this your doubt/question?.....if so (even if not so), even if I answer your question, you will not understand as your posts so far, shows your aquaintance with Jyothisham....How can I speak about Lagrangian or Eulerian method of treating a multiphase problem to a layman? Similarly, how can I explain the technical terms of Jyothisham to a person who has no idea about it?



The calculation of sunrise and sunset and eclipses have been done by many civilizations. But my interest is in horoscopes and prediction. How do you say that it is scientific? What is the proof? Just because it includes mathematical calculations, it doesn't mean that what they predict would happen, would it?

I give the same reply that I have given to r_kk. If your concept of science is something documented in Greek or German by a white skinned gentleman, then I have no say.....And me being from a family who knows astrology I know how well it works and the extent to which predictions could be made.



To put it in simpler terms, how do you explain scientifically that the sun rising at xx hours tomorrow or an eclipse occuring on a certain date would lead to my death on a certain date (I know this is very simplistic, but similar nonetheless)

I have mentioned earlier that, proofs of theorems menioned are in advance level and I am yet to reach that level......



A few more questions:
It has been accepted by scientists that a baby is virtually capable of being independent by the 8th month in it's mother's womb. So, does the horoscope have to be written from the 8th month? I have also come across doubts on another thread that a horoscope should be ideally written at the instant the baby is conceived. What is your take on this?)

Horoscope is calculated when the head of the child appears...


If you say that they may not be born at the exact instant, what is the time precision required to quantify exactness? Milliseconds? Nanoseconds?

This is the time scale as discribed by Jyothisham...

The base is "paramanu"
2 paramanu = 1 anu
3 anu = triyassaranu
3 triyassaranu = 1 truthi
100 truthi = 1 vedh
3 vedh = 1 lava
3 lava = 1 nimisha
3 nimisha = 1 kshana
5 kshana = 1 kashtha
15 kashta - 1 laghu
15 laghu = 1 ghatika
2 ghatika = 1 muhurtha
3-3/4 muhurtha = 1 prahar
8 prahar = 1 day

If you are good in arithmetic, you can arrive to a fact that "1 Paramanu" is incidentally equivalent to 1/ 379675 second. Now I think, this much accurate time scale is provided not to simply to shave one's head or beard.



My problem, as many other hubbers', is the title of this thread. As long as you discuss astrology from the point of view of religious or personal belief, I don't have a problem. But you can't claim that it is scientific and get away with it without proving.

Your actaual problem, that I feel is, you think you are too smart....Finally, if you think, you can get answers for anything and everything by simply asking questions, then I'm not so fond of answering such questions.....and.....I have nothing to tell you further. :)

[srivatsan]

FloraiPuyal, your approach seems to be very differerrnt and intersting though. Please contributing more rather than simply counter-arguing.

I am sure your knowledge deserves to be more pro-active than defending....

[r_kk]

[tscii:6e9f47b244]

How can I speak about Lagrangian or Eulerian method of treating a multiphase problem to a layman?

Horoscope is calculated when the head of the child appears...

This is the time scale as discribed by Jyothisham...

The base is "paramanu"
2 paramanu = 1 anu
3 anu = triyassaranu
3 triyassaranu = 1 truthi
100 truthi = 1 vedh
3 vedh = 1 lava
3 lava = 1 nimisha
3 nimisha = 1 kshana
5 kshana = 1 kashtha
15 kashta - 1 laghu
15 laghu = 1 ghatika
2 ghatika = 1 muhurtha
3-3/4 muhurtha = 1 prahar
8 prahar = 1 day

If you are good in arithmetic, you can arrive to a fact that "1 Paramanu" is incidentally equivalent to 1/ 379675 second.

Your actaual problem, that I feel is, you think you are too smart.........and.....I have nothing to tell you further. :)

Great Srivatsan… for spending lot of your valuable time to explaining lot of high funda micro level time calculation to the ignorant layman like me. Unfortunately I can understand the Lagrangian or Eulerian methods but determining one’s birth in much lower than millisecond is beyond my level of understanding.

You said the birth time is based on the time when head of the baby comes out. How one could able to measure the time in “1/ 379675 second“ scale? What is mean head? Is it hair or forehead or entire head or neck … What kind of atomic clock one has to use to determine the birth time to meet your assumed accuracy?

Writing some numbers and some multiplication don’t prove anything! Your personal validation methods are nothing but selective rare probabilistic coincidences. In simple terms “Kakkai urkara panampazam viluntha kathai”. As usual you are more interested in diverting this topic by simply taking the discussion to personal level and blaming the opponents. Come to the subject. Explain your science by quoting and explaining any slogans from any authentic book and correlate to micro, macro level physics and curve fitting techniques.


[/tscii:6e9f47b244]

[srivatsan]

[tscii:d65b936767]

Great Srivatsan… for spending lot of your valuable time to explaining lot of high funda micro level time calculation to the ignorant layman like me. Unfortunately I can understand the Lagrangian or Eulerian methods but determining one’s birth in much lower than millisecond is beyond my level of understanding.

You said the birth time is based on the time when head of the baby comes out. How one could able to measure the time in “1/ 379675 second“ scale? What is mean head? Is it hair or forehead or entire head or neck … What kind of atomic clock one has to use to determine the birth time to meet your assumed accuracy?

Did I ever say that 1/379675 is used only for finding when a person would die or when he will get a job?


What kind of atomic clock one has to use to determine the birth time to meet your assumed accuracy?

This is what is the problem of many today....seeing everything from western point of view. I learnt from our History (Mahabharatha - again if your perpective of hisotry something aprroved by westerners, then again I have no say)that sages used their "Athma Nyaanam", to keep track of these datas. Try to see things as they are.....See Jyothisham as Jyothisham and not as how you want it to be or dont want it to be.



Writing some numbers and some multiplication don’t prove anything! Your personal validation methods are nothing but selective rare probabilistic coincidences. In simple terms “Kakkai urkara panampazam viluntha kathai”. ?

As I have already mentioned, you have your own concept of science and you want to accept only something satisfies your equation.


As usual you are more interested in diverting this topic by simply taking the discussion to personal level and blaming the opponents. Come to the subject. Explain your science by quoting and explaining any slogans from any authentic book and correlate to micro, macro level physics and curve fitting techniques.

Again, I dont know what is an "authentic book" in your perception.....If I say "Soorya Siddhantha", then you will ask me, who is the authos, who is the publisher, and who approved Soorya Siddhantha as an authentic journal and all such?

I cannot tell you, what you want to hear or what you dont want to hear.

Yes, I am not very matured enough to tolerate people coming to argue about something with out any 'sence of humility', when they have absolutely no idea of what they are talking about. May be this is one of the good things that I should learn from this hub.

I know, even now, I have not answered to the level of convincing you. But I feel two things....

1. I am not here to convince anyone.

2. I have a very strong belief that anyone who wants to learn something shd first possess humility. In thamizh, it is "Adakkam or Panivu". So I dont want to encourage arguments or discussion with someone, who asks simply questions without any idea of what he is talking about.

I dont see your questions reflects any sence of respect towards the subject or the previous works and as I mentioned earlier, I am not tolarent towards this attitude....

So "Chodyathai pol irukkum Uthram". (Kelviyai pol irukkum badil)

[/tscii:d65b936767]

[chaipau]

The West invented Science, beginning more or less with the Greeks and refined by Socratic Method.

Then the West went to sleep for 1200 years or so. But when they awakened, they picked up again their project of science.

The word science must be used accurately. Much argument is created when one person is using a slightly different defination of a word.

Science is simply observation, hypothesis (or nul-hypothesis), verification of test results, math to explain test results.

This process creates "laws", seemingly irrefutable dictums that govern matter and energy, and when obeyed can create new and useful products, but when violated often result in harm or death. For instance, try jumping off a building and flapping your arms to fly.

Non-scientists try to extend the "laws of nature" to deny the possibility of God, gods or souls. A real scientist does not do this, as his concern is not social policy but rather observation, hypothesis, verification and mathmatical description.

So Western science is most accurately understood as simply a set of "laws" that seem to work 99.99999999999999999% of the time.

The aims and motives of those who invoke science to influence philosophy or social policy are the same aims and motives that humans have always had since the earliest written records and likely before. As times change, the scripts change, but the aims and motives remain the same.

Astrology is an art by Western standards because it does not follow the rigorous method of Western science.

Some people are more comfortable consulting astrology for reasons they may not fully understand, but it may just be the desire for simplification. Art eases life.

Over time, something that really works well and reliably will catch on and become popular, like the wheel, the automobile, ice cream, air conditioners, locks and keys, and so on.

The low popularity of astology tends to suggest it's not very reliable.

Some one once said, "Only mankind can be so arrogant as to think the planets and stars arrange themselves around the events of human lives".

[r_kk]

Try to see things as they are.....See Jyothisham as Jyothisham and not as how you want it to be or dont want it to be.


Good... This is what I have been telling from beginning... Treat Jyothisham as Jyothisham... Not a science... Thanks for accepting... Science means that it can be provable, repeatable under all circumstances... Unfortunately no one here could able to provide anything to prove Jyothisham as science till now.



As I have already mentioned, you have your own concept of science and you want to accept only something satisfies your equation.?

I don't have any own concept for science. The concept of science is universal. Not based on the skin colour or source whwther eastern or western. You only bringing all these classification and blamming the opponents.



Again, I dont know what is an "authentic book" in your perception.....If I say "Soorya Siddhantha", then you will ask me, who is the authos, who is the publisher, and who approved Soorya Siddhantha as an authentic journal and all such?

Why can't you provide some thing first? Don't assume on your own. If you want to believe your story about Calf and Mr. Sudhamma's story about Lion as validation method then any one with little bit of knowledge in science which has been taught in schools, can't accept it.




1. I am not here to convince anyone.

2. I have a very strong belief that anyone who wants to learn something shd first possess humility. In thamizh, it is "Adakkam or Panivu". So I dont want to encourage arguments or discussion with someone, who asks simply questions without any idea of what he is talking about.


In that case, please change the tiltle of this thread... You call Jyothisham as any thing... except science, as long as you can't provide any scientific data or mehods whic can be repeatable or provable by any means. I don't waste my time unnecessarily arguing with you... Call it with any name... "Jyothisahm... God's knowledge... Know your future... Ancient astronomy... (just for your idea!) anything you want...."

[chaipau]

Floraipuyal:

You gave this statement, which is not correct:

"A theory and / or formula is valid till the time it is disproved."

In Western Science, we say:

No theory is practically or usably valid until the experiments to support it have been duplicated many times by different researchers who don't know each other in different locations.

Also, it is common to form a nul-hypothesis and seek to prove IT. By proving the opposite of the hypothesis, which is sometimes lest costly than proving the hypothesis, time and money can be saved. When the nul-hypothesis is proved, the hypothesis is rejected and one has to come up with a new or modified hypothesis.

But, when the nul-hypothesis is dis-proved, it makes the hypothesis even stronger.

Einstein formed the nul-hypothesis that IF during a lunar eclipse of the sun the sun's light rays around the edge of the moon DO NOT show some spectrum or rainbow effect, then gravity DOES NOT bend light.

The rainbow effect was observed, the nul-hypothesis disproved, thus gravity DOES bend light.

This is Science. There is no difference between Western and Eastern Science. The dispute only arises when different definitions of 'Science" are used, including into the Eastern definition too many other human pursuits.

Clear thinking Westerners do not think themselves more "intelligent", they simply prefer to use the ideas from science to their advantage, and sometimes wonder why others don't do the same, including many Westerners!

Also, as I said in the above post, when the "laws" of science are ignored, harm can result. It is the Western view that many social problems like poverty can be locked in by the denial of the "laws" of Science. Harm locked in. Westerners themselves cured most of their poverty by using Science and Technology.

The quibbling over definitions has led to this descriptive Western phrase: "the argumentative Indian"

Why quibble? Let's eat.

Cheers

[srivatsan]

Why can't you provide some thing first? Don't assume on your own. If you want to believe your story about Calf and Mr. Sudhamma's story about Lion as validation method then any one with little bit of knowledge in science which has been taught in schools, can't accept it.

How can U accept or believe something which I am going to give you is authentic. Do you think, I am wasting my time with you with out having any source with me? I am not convinced that if I give you a material as a source of my words, YOU WILL NOT BE ABLE TO VERIFY IT or UNDERSTAND IT....and I Dont want to waste my resources like this.....that' all...

Lion or cow story is not my validation method...it is just to show you that this is also possible.




In that case, please change the tiltle of this thread... You call Jyothisham as any thing... except science, as long as you can't provide any scientific data or mehods whic can be repeatable or provable by any means. I don't waste my time unnecessarily arguing with you... Call it with any name... "Jyothisahm... God's knowledge... Know your future... Ancient astronomy... (just for your idea!) anything you want...."

Mr. I am convinced that Jyothisham is a science....which isoften misunderstood. When questions are raised on the advance level of Jyothisham from people who dont even know the basics, then if their questions are not answered, it is not the fault of subject, but that of the questioner........

To me Science is "Nature", that exists around us. This Nature may or may not influenze us. The Nature is/was observed to obey a set of laws, and I can see and feel the above mentioned phenomenon in Jyothisham too......and many others do so. If you do not unsderstand, it is not the subject's fault.


..... You only bringing all these classification and blamming the opponents.

Opponenets.....? Who are my opppnents. Who is Mr. r_kk Mr. Kannannn or Mr. X to me? and why shdould I attack them? They ask me questions, about something which they do not have any idea and I simply say, "Mr. when you do not know even the basics about something, dont expect it to convince you, It can not." There is no enmity or crushing opponents in this....

If you care, Go and learn the basics of Jyothisham and understand the undelying concept and if you are still not convinced, come here, Argue technically, qouting several facts that your read and say Jyothisham is not Science and not before. TO put is more soft, Technical discussions are between technicians and not between Technician and non-Technician....Did I offend you, my friend :) ?

[Eelavar]

chaipau,


The West invented Science, beginning more or less with the Greeks and refined by Socratic Method.

Hihihi :lol:

Let me ask you a question, do you live in the west ?

Me too, but i know that i'm brainwashed.
Please don't underestimate anciant India, and the Science heritage...

I never understood why the 12 zodiac-rasi was developped by both Greeks and Indians...

The most anciant astronomical observatory is in India...
How is it possible if anciant Indian never developped 'Science' ??

Please do not give false affirmation like 'western invented Science' !

:wink:

sorry Srivatsan.. :roll:

[srivatsan]

Don't forgot how much anciant Indians helped the anciant Greeks.


Please do not affirm stupidities like 'western invented Science' !!


Friend, we shall not use these kind of words here. Please understand I strated this thread to share the technical knowledge....

[kannannn]

Mr. I am convinced that Jyothisham is a science....which isoften misunderstood. When questions are raised on the advance level of Jyothisham from people who dont even know the basics, then if their questions are not answered, it is not the fault of subject, but that of the questioner........

To me Science is "Nature", that exists around us. This Nature may or may not influenze us. The Nature is/was observed to obey a set of laws, and I can see and feel the above mentioned phenomenon in Jyothisham too......and many others do so. If you do not unsderstand, it is not the subject's fault.
You say it is science, you say it is of advance level, you say you feel it and see it. All but quotes and proofs. In fact you said that to know the meaning of vedas one requires formal education in sanskrit, etc.. But you suddenly changed your stand and said that you will post the relevant parts. Now you are singing the same song here. If you don't have the proof you accuse others of seeing things from western perspective. How convenient. Anyway since you yourself have said that you can't understand the 'advanced' proofs, there is nothing to argue.

Many points have been put forth on why it is not science. This is a small addition from Richard Dawkins:
http://www.simonyi.ox.ac.uk/dawkins/WorldOfDawkins-archive/Dawkins/Work/Articles/1995-12romance_in_stars.shtml

[rocketboy]

i am yet to understand the connection between science and jyothism/ jyothidam :YAWNING:. but with my understanding of science I can say not all things can be predicted with precision even with the present scientific wisdom we have accumulated over the centuries . Even Newton's universal laws are no good. A basic comprehension of the theory of chaos is enough to shatter the very foundations of jyothism . 8-)

[Eelavar]

Even Newton's universal laws are no good. A basic comprehension of the theory of chaos is enough to shatter the very foundations of jyothism .

Yes very true. :)
Newton's laws are not perfect.

F=M*a is not always right..
Imagine you are sitted in a wheel chair and you put behind the chair a gaz propuslor. You have just to open the gaz to see that this law is not right !

Your chair will move while there is no 'external' force...

At the moment, Physics is not perfect everyone must understand that your value cannot be 99.999% right as pretended by another member.

Modern physics say that 88% of the mass is missing !!

So where is it ?? Noone can give a response.
Modern physics cannot help us to resolve all the problems, so it's not a science true at 99.999 %.
Try to predicate a choatic movement like boomerangs !

Emminent scientists said that where the modern science will finish , there will begin the vedic science...

[kannannn]

Try to predicate a choatic movement like boomerangs !
The flight dynamics of Boomerang was reported recently in one of the journals of American Instuitute of Aeronautics and Astronautics.

[rocketboy]

Even Newton's universal laws are no good. A basic comprehension of the theory of chaos is enough to shatter the very foundations of jyothism .

Yes very true. :)
Newton's laws are not perfect.

F=M*a is not always right..
Imagine you are sitted in a wheel chair and you put behind the chair a gaz propuslor. You have just to open the gaz to see that this law is not right !

Your chair will move while there is no 'external' force...

Emminent scientists said that where the modern science will finish , there will begin the vedic science...

If i understand this properly the situation is akin to the propulsion of a
rocket. Isn't it? then its a simple application of Newton's third law right? The necessary thrust is provided by the expulsion of the gases .

I really want to know who are these eminent scientists.

[srivatsan]

Many points have been put forth on why it is not science. This is a small addition from Richard Dawkins:
http://www.simonyi.ox.ac.uk/dawkins/WorldOfDawkins-archive/Dawkins/Work/Articles/1995-12romance_in_stars.shtml

Who is this Richard Dawkins Sir? and I dont think he is talking about Jyothisham and from his articel I find he is rediculing some astrological predicitions published in some Sunday Times....

I uderstand that astrological predictions that western astrologers do is NOT according to our Jyothisha Shasthra. If you have been arguing so far based on western astrology, I am sorry, I do not know about that and I dont want call it good or bad with out knowing it.....

[kannannn]

[tscii:d6abb369bc]Srivatsan, Richard Dawkins is the author of 'The Selfish Gene', 'The Blind Watch Maker', 'The River out of Eden' and the recently published 'The Ancestor’s Tale: A Pilgrimage to the Dawn of Life' and an Evolutionary Biologist. I know he is talking about western astrology. But the reason I presented the article is that whatever people claim in astrology, be it western or Vedic, doesn't stand scientific scrutiny. This is just a case in point. People practising or believing in western astrology also claim that it works and that it follows a scientific model, though they haven't explained till now.[/tscii:d6abb369bc]

[Eelavar]

rocketboy,

Nikola Tesla is one example !
Swami Vivekanda tought him the vedic philosophy..

Read those interesting articles.

http://fusionanomaly.net/influenceofvedicphilosophyonnikolatesla.html
http://www.uncletaz.com/library/scimath/tesla/vedictesl.html

[kannannn]

[tscii:b1c2fa6141]Since people aren't convinced about the opposition of the scientific community to astrology, by claiming them to be 'Westerners' who don't know about the 'scientific' basis on which our astrology is based, I had to dig up 'Current Science' for the opposition from Indian scientists to the description of astrology as science:

http://www.ias.ac.in/currsci/may102001/1085.pdf
Editorial in Current Science by Prof. P. Balram

http://www.ias.ac.in/currsci/may102001/1087.pdf
Correspondence by Scientists

http://www.ias.ac.in/currsci/nov102000/1139.pdf
An earlier editorial by Balram warning against the introduction of Astrology by UGC

I have uploaded a picture from one of the issues for hubbers to appreciate the humor in the introduction of astrology as a scientific subject:
http://s12.imagehosting.us/uploadpoint/imagehosting_upload_storage/nouser_1338/T0_-1_1338928.JPG

Finally, Swami Vivekananda's words quoted in the editorial:
‘Let stars come, what harm is there? If a star disturbs my life, it would not be worth a cent’.

Just for information: Balram is the director of the Indian Institute of Science (IISc), Bangalore and professor at the Molecular Bio Physics Department , IISc.[/tscii:b1c2fa6141]

[srivatsan]

***repeated message***

[srivatsan]

[tscii:0575aa9196]Since people aren't convinced about the opposition of the scientific community to astrology, by claiming them to be 'Westerners' who don't know about the 'scientific' basis on which our astrology is based, I had to dig up 'Current Science' for the opposition from Indian scientists to the description of astrology as science:

http://www.ias.ac.in/currsci/may102001/1085.pdf
Editorial in Current Science by Prof. P. Balram

http://www.ias.ac.in/currsci/may102001/1087.pdf
Correspondence by Scientists

http://www.ias.ac.in/currsci/nov102000/1139.pdf
An earlier editorial by Balram warning against the introduction of Astrology by UGC

I have uploaded a picture from one of the issues for hubbers to appreciate the humor in the introduction of astrology as a scientific subject:
http://s12.imagehosting.us/uploadpoint/imagehosting_upload_storage/nouser_1338/T0_-1_1338928.JPG

Finally, Swami Vivekananda's words quoted in the editorial:
‘Let stars come, what harm is there? If a star disturbs my life, it would not be worth a cent’.

Just for information: Balram is the director of the Indian Institute of Science (IISc), Bangalore and professor at the Molecular Bio Physics Department , IISc.[/tscii:0575aa9196]

kannannn, why Dr. Balram, let Dr. C.V.Raman himslef say against Jyothisham.....the question I am asking is, "on what basis?"

I belive that even to redicule some thing, you should know about it.....That Dr.Balram is the director of the Indian Institute of Science (IISc), Bangalore and professor at the Molecular Bio Physics Department , IISc. doesn't imply that he has to know Jyothisham.....May be you misunderstood......when I say western people don't follow our Jyothisham, then you shd quote the comments of someone who knows our Jyothisham claiming it to be a myth.....not quotes from articles authored by Indian Name.....I mean Indians who do not know the system.....

I have mentioned this almost in all the replies in this thread..to put ti more simple....an analogy.....

That Dr. Kalam is great scietist in Rocekt science doesn't mean that he is an expert or atleast novice in Cardiology......both are differernt.... completely differerent......to call something is true or false, you should know about it..... :)

[Eelavar]

http://www.crystalinks.com/indiastronomy.html

An interesting link about the astronomy in anciant India.

[kannannn]

Srivatsan, please read the correspondences carefully to know the aspects on which they oppose astrology as a science. Anyway, there have been no answers to the questions raised: how exactly do the forces of the planets affect individual human life? what about the effect of neptune, uranus and pluto?

[srivatsan]

what about the effect of neptune, uranus and pluto?
Effect of Neptune, Uranus and Pluto are not taken in to consiederation in to Jyothisham.....Even the effect of Imaginary or shadow planets, Rahu and Kethu were not considered. But I do not know, when the practice of including Rahu and Kethu came in to Jyothisham......but predictions based on movement of Rahu or Kethu works perfectly well...though......

Kanannn, I have told you that the how the effect of planetary movement can be correlated to our behaviour or how it affect our behaviour is in the advance level of Jyothisham...which I am yet to reach......

[kannannn]

OK. I would be waiting to hear that. :D

[r_kk]

Mr. Srivatsan,

If you feel one has to undergo Master degree in Surgery to know whether human has brain or not, it is too much.... My questions were very simple and basic and remain in this web forum unanswered for more than 1 year.I also proposed a simple method of verification to overcome this stale state. Unfortunately no astrologer seems interested to accept my simple proposal. Please go through my simple proposal, if you really believe what you are talking is science!

http://forumhub.mayyam.com/hub/viewtopic.php?t=3423&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=27

[srivatsan]

If you feel one has to undergo Master degree in Surgery to know whether human has brain or not, it is too much....

I dont understand your anology....


My questions were very simple and basic and remain in this web forum unanswered for more than 1 year.I also proposed a simple method of verification to overcome this stale state. Unfortunately no astrologer seems interested to accept my simple proposal. Please go through my simple proposal, if you really believe what you are talking is science!

I have seen that entire thread and also your proposal. It was indeed a good suggestion. As I am not in Bharatham right now, I regret that I am not able to initiate or participate in any such attempts...

But I wagely remember that in "Kumudam Jyothidam" AMR (it's editor and cheif astrologer) wrote about a similar situation. I hope you remember the Fire accident in a Marriage in Srirangam, in which the some 20 peoples died including the "boy". He was referring to the lagnam on which the "Muhoortham" was proposed, which indicated a fire mishap and he wondered how the astrologer set that as the Muhoortha Lagnam. He also wrote that "Now there is no use of discussing" He wrote this article to advice that astrolgers should equip themselves(learn astrology properly) thoroughly and sincerely do their duty.....

While he referred to the accident in Kumbakonam, again he quoted various planetory positions that indicates a fire accident....again he added that "Vidhi Valiyadhu".

Infact..it is correct. Who will daily look in to the planetory position to check whether any mishap/mass death/accident will happen at one particular part of world? But for certain special occasion, say, before planning a journey, fixing a Muhoortham or Matching horoscope for marriage, it is practically possible to consult Jyothisham.....

Well, regarding your proposed project, it is a good suggestion and I think, we can contact any University in which research in Jyothisham is going on. I aknow that there is one Applied Samskritha Dept. in Madras University...there they are doing research in "Vaimanika Shastra" and some agriculture too...but I am nor sure whether they do this in Jyothisham.....May be I can ask my friends in Applied Samskritha dept in Madras Univ.....

[r_kk]

I dont understand your anology.........

The analogy is very simple. Don't expect any one to undergo detail study (learning lot of purans written in different language) to understand the answer for a simple question on astrology which has not validated by any scientific process.


.. I wagely remember that in "Kumudam Jyothidam" AMR (it's editor and cheif astrologer) wrote about a similar situation. I hope you remember the Fire accident in a Marriage in Srirangam, in which the some 20 peoples died including the "boy". He was referring to the lagnam on which the "Muhoortham" was proposed, which indicated a fire mishap and he wondered how the astrologer set that as the Muhoortha Lagnam. He also wrote that "Now there is no use of discussing" He wrote this article to advice that astrolgers should equip themselves(learn astrology properly) thoroughly and sincerely do their duty.....

While he referred to the accident in Kumbakonam, again he quoted various planetory positions that indicates a fire accident....again he added that "Vidhi Valiyadhu".

... But for certain special occasion, say, before planning a journey, fixing a Muhoortham or Matching horoscope for marriage, it is practically possible to consult Jyothisham.....


It is very easy for any one to make such comments after knowing about an incident. whether he could able to predict any such one or saved any one or at least could able to corelate the horoscopes of people those who died in such incident with respect to tragedy. If something is predetermined (fate or vidthi) again basis of astrology fails miserably. What is use in knowing through astrology? If it would have been averted, then it was not the correct one to happen!



Well, regarding your proposed project, it is a good suggestion and I think, we can contact any University in which research in Jyothisham is going on. I aknow that there is one Applied Samskritha Dept. in Madras University...there they are doing research in "Vaimanika Shastra" and some agriculture too...but I am nor sure whether they do this in Jyothisham.....May be I can ask my friends in Applied Samskritha dept in Madras Univ.....

Good... Thanks for telling it as a good suggestion... I feel such kind of verification is necessary before claiming anything as science. Please ask your friends to take up such projects with honesty and open minded.

[srivatsan]

The analogy is very simple. Don't expect any one to undergo detail study (learning lot of purans written in different language) to understand the answer for a simple question on astrology which has not validated by any scientific process..........

But I think one can go thru' atleast the basics of Jyothisham....which I dont see many are doing before they make criticism....


It is very easy for any one to make such comments after knowing about an incident. whether he could able to predict any such one or saved any one or at least could able to corelate the horoscopes of people those who died in such incident with respect to tragedy. If something is predetermined (fate or vidthi) again basis of astrology fails miserably. What is use in knowing through astrology? If it would have been averted, then it was not the correct one to happen!

Jyothisham indicates predetermined events.....by happenings in the sorroundings....it doesn't deceides what shd happen to a person....or a being......and if you do not know, who is AMR, please dont speak so loose about him.......he is a really learned person.....please.... :)

[chaipau]

To Eelavar and Srivatsan

Hi:

Yes, I am a Westerner, but I am not brainwashed.

Ancient atrological and astronomical observation was observation, to be sure, and the ancient civilizations and even Neanderthals all made observations.

But again, when I say the West invented science, I am using the modern, careful and limited defination of science I already provided.

By that definition, my statement that the West invented science is correct.

For instance, it is Western science that finally figured out that the earth rotated and the stars barely moved (relatively speaking)

The kind of careful, organized and self-critical thinking that is the basis of modern "science" became most evident in late Greek culture, culminating with Socractes, who was put to death for being so logical, his logic upsetting the status quo, which they called "corrupting the youth".

Despite the fact that Greeks likely descended from Indians, by the time of the rise of Hellenic civilation they were a very distinct people who fought and traded with Indians, but otherwise did not adopt very much of Indian culture - just bits and pieces.

From the time of the end of the great Greek civilization to the European Rennaisance and Enlightenment the entire planet advanced "science" very little, and even during the European Enlightenment the rest of the world seemed very uninterested. Minds slept.

In fact, the enlightenment came late to India in the 1800's with the British and French and the "Young Calcuttans", the "corrupted youth" of Calcutta.

There is a trend in American and European post-modern feel-good theory to give some emphasis to the accomplishments of "people of color", so that they don't lack self-esteem. Thus, for instance, much noise is made of the ancient library in the middle of Africa, and Arabs are told they invented algebra.

Chinese are applauded for the invention of gunpowder.

Native North American Indians actually had few accomplishments, so they are hailed for their primal wood carvings. Central and South American Indians are praised for their pyramids and irrigation. (Human sacrifice is downplayed in these discussions)

Then these poor children with low self-esteem are told that micro-tonal music is superior because it has more notes in it's scales. More equals better, right?

But if weight matters, then what are we to say about a culture that invents something, and then stops inventing?

The Europeans, using Greek thought as a basis, took study and invention further than it had ever gone before, literally dwarfing the accomplishments of all other cultures.

Now, if you have a chip on you shoulder, you will be feeling resentment at my words. This is exactly the effect Socrates had on the people of Greece - he irritated them. Perhaps you would like to make me drink hemlock.

I only describe events as they are and were. I am not adding any concept of "racial superiority" to this discussion. I'm not even sure Europeans can claim to have self-directed their intense interest in science. It could just be fate.

Also, since Indians and Europeans are essentially the same race, known in the West as caucasian, the concept of racial superiority would include Indians and Persians. That was the claim of the Nazis, and why the Nazis appropriated the swastika from Indian culture.

Also, and this should really trigger some Hindus, whom I am fond of, many analysts have claimed, beginning with Friedrich Nietzsche (1880's), that the Roman (Christian) Church, for 1000 years, pounded into the heads of Europeans the importance of telling the truth, and this is the basis of the Enlightenment.

According to Nietzsche, who was an atheist, Christians only had one lie in their belief system (one God responsible for everything), while the other religions and all primitive religions had many lies (many gods, sub-gods, logical fallacies). Buddhism actually only has one lie (reincarnation), but the cultures where it became popular fused it with much of their older, primitive religious concepts and diluted it a bit, so that only the Buddhist monks and nuns really practiced the religion in its pure form.

The Roman Church objected to the embrace of science during the Enlightenment, but now they embrace science. Catholics, for instance, do not endorse Christian "creationsim" in place of evolution.

I don't bring this up to argue about religion, but to show how science relies and limits itself to that which can be proved, scientific "truth", and no lying or Art is permitted in science.

And are not humans the most artful decievers of all the animal kingdom?

This does not mean that scientific "truth" is the same as spiritual "truth" or that it is some kind of ultimate "truth". It is true that many Western atheists think scientific truth is "ultimate truth", a belief system known as scientism or postivism.

Interestingly, Nietzsche was an anti-positivist and claimed that positivism is just another religion. He was a proponent of chaos as the fundamental force of the universe, meaning that all science was just selective observation, predjudice and bias.

Nevertheless, with science useful things can be built and medicines created. Newtonian science is the most widely used type of science and is responsible for the vast, vast majority of useful inventions. Despite what some people may say, Newtonian science has not been overturned. If bodies move into each other because of a warp in time - Einstien's theory of gravity - the fact remains that the vast majority of engineering calculations here on earth don't care about that. But just as Newton never explained why bodies attract, he only said that they do, Einstein never explained why bodies bend time. He just claimed that they do.

Only irresponsible pundits try to extend a scientific observation beyond the utility of the observation. Every such extension has a purely human motivation that matter and energy themselves are not concerned with.

Yet, experience has shown that when a population group accepts the importance of the careful thinking and the requirement for proof that a scientific attitude requires, social inequities tend to begin to vanish, or at least attenuate.

There is an increasing anti-positivist trend in the West (finally!) begining to question as to what extent social policy can be established by science. Many Westerners want their spirtuality back. That's part of the reason Americans go to India and seek out gurus.

As an anti-positivist I don't run around telling people their religion is foolish. I look at results. India has been wise at limiting Western cultural influences - pornography and alcohol for instance. I encourage all Indians to remain conservative and resist Western hedonisms. Emphasis should remain on the extended family. I predict an increasing Western interest in Bollywood films

The West is decadent! This is absolutely and totally the result of loosing spirituality and religion. Social problems increase in the absence of the unprovable concepts of these kinds of traditions.

So the best possible world will be the result of the simultaneous embrace of science and spirtuality. This embrace requries that each be compromised slightly.

So I suggest that Indians might want to rethink the caste system.
And in fact, they are, which is why at long last there are many Indian organizations working hard to alleviate poverty and educate the public and, unfortunately, there are angry Maoist rebels running amok.


Cheers

[pradheep]

Dear Friends
Sorry to interupt the flow of your discussions. I like to share my thoughts here and it may help the discussion. First we need to distinguish fate and destiny. fate cannot be changed, but destiny can be. Fate operates through cause and effect phenomenon. That is natural law. But destiny is changeable and that is free will.

Example, standing in coimbatore and going north will bring the fate of reaching Delhi and not kanyakumari. But going north at every step there is free will either to continue north or take a turn back and proceed south. The time required to reach KK would depend upon the time when we change our destiny (exercise free will).

This is why we say vidhiyai mathiyal vellalam (we can change destiny through our thoughts). This is why we are always asked to think good and go good changes will occur. But immeiately we do not see the result , like the above example.

Jyothism is often wrongly interpretted as planets controlling our lives. Instead the truth is that they reflect us and not controlling us.

Jyothishm is like a mirror. We are not the face in the mirror , but the mirror reflects our face. Similarly we are not the planteray influence but they reflect us. Since we cannot see our face directly , we use a mirror to knowwhat is there in the face. The same applies to jyothish, because we cannot know what the future is, we use the planets to predict events. Without this understanding jyothism would only be confusing, and would succumb to matter of beleif and non-beleif.

I like to add a comment on oneof friend who said " West invented science". Science is not a commodity to be invented. Science is experimentation, observation and inference drawing methodology. This logical reasoning was not initiated in the west in 18th century.

Ancient India and other countries hadthis logical reasoning and over time it has been destroyed. The remains of soem of the logical knowedge is still been "re-searched" in modern times.

Indian spiritual and scientific tradition strong foundation is based on inquiry and not on beleif system and that has stood the test of time.

[r_kk]

Jyothisham indicates predetermined events.....by happenings in the sorroundings....it doesn't deceides what shd happen to a person....or a being......and if you do not know, who is AMR, please dont speak so loose about him.......he is a really learned person.....please.... :)

Don't over react please. Where i had written any thing negative about AMR? (I don't know about him frankly). He might be a great man but my comments are as usual subject specific and individual specific.

[chaipau]

Pradeep:

Actually, science is a process that produces commodities. And every scientist serves a master. So economics and science can't be separated.

Sometimes a scientist may say, "I am only interested in theoretical research, wherever that may lead, I have no agenda".

But that man is on another man's or corporation's payroll, and the bosses expect results that they can captialize upon. So they allow the scientist to wear his little halo and walk around all pious and noble - as long as the results of his research are profitable. After enough time passes with no profit, the scientist is sacked.

So I don't even conceptualize science as something truly noble that "belongs to all people", but I do think it may be helpful in some ways, although I will be the first to object if a sophisticated weapon is used on me. Science cuts both ways.

For sake of historical accuracy, there really are very few examples of what is called modern science prior to the European Enlightenment and Greek (Hellenic) thought.

All ancients only observed and then due to bias created fanciful explanations. The first explanation that "satisfied" usually sufficed. Because the ancient world was filled with fanciful explanations no unified theories could arise - the thread tying the observations together was lacking.

For instance, although the Chinese had invented gunpowder, they did it by trial and error, alchemy more or less, and didn't know why it worked.

Egyptian pyramids showed some construction site math and knowledge of the position of planets and stars, but there was very little science to them. The goal of the pyramid was simple: elevate the ego of the Pharoh, and impress the subjugated. This purely human goal did not require the humility that science requires, and so the pyramids are based on lies and cunning, not the desire to find the common thread of causality.

Some anthropologists have suggested that the human mind had to first evolve to the point that it could "handle" the abstractions necessary for modern science. If this is true, and there is good reason to think that it is since, for instance, we doubt apes will ever be good scientists, then the abstract and organized thought that modern science demands may only have become possible for humans around the time that it did.

A mistake many people make is to project themselves as they are into ancient times and think that ancient peoples had minds like ours, and to explain primitiveness by saying that they simply had not yet developed a sufficient body of knowledge to put the story of physics together.

It's probably more accurate to think of ancients as having minds like modern 12 to 13 year olds.

Further back, like 6 year olds. Imagine the mind of a modern 6 year old in a fully grown body with strong muscles and a sex drive, and there you have the description of a barbarian.

It's interesting to note that cunning was known to ancient and primitive people. But then we see cunning in the animal world, so I guess that's not so surprising. Then we see how some very young train station children have cunning. Cunning is likely built into our DNA.

With cunning being so available to creatures, including humans, we might want to not only be understanding and forgiving of primitive ideas, but also be suspicious of them, at least some of them.


Cheers

[anticrap]

[ quote]India has been wise at limiting Western cultural influences - pornography and alcohol for instance. I[/quote]

:lol: It is obvious you know so little about India.We have the highest consumption of alcohol from vedic period onwards,and as to pornography, our repressed libido's can manifest in very ugly ways.

[anticrap]

In the last parliament election, all the prominent astrologers predicted that Vajpayee was going to be PM . What happened?Don't give the crap that astrologers make mistakes,not astrology.If the prominent ones are not able to make the right calls, then it is total bullshit.

[mahadevan]

Pradheep wrote: "Jyothism is often wrongly interpretted as planets controlling our lives. Instead the truth is that they reflect us and not controlling us....."

Now you are telling that our actions would determine planetary behaviour ?
If what happens is based on ones karma and if what is going to happen can be predicted by using platenary positions(which are only reflecting) as leading indicators, then ones karma would determine planetary positions. Hi Pradheep does this not sound ludicrous ?

[srivatsan]

If what happens is based on ones karma and if what is going to happen can be predicted by using platenary positions(which are only reflecting) as leading indicators, then ones karma would determine planetary positions. Hi Pradheep does this not sound ludicrous ?

Seriously......Mahadevan......is this how you do logical reasoning....ask yourself.....is this what you understood from various posts in this thread?

[mahadevan]

Srivatsan I am just restating what Pradheep said, please read his post before juming into conclusions.

[pradheep]

Dear Mahadevan
I am sorry that my explanations are not clear enough. I said planets do not influence us. Our thoughts influence our lives, based on natural laws (vidhi) which are predestined. This has to be understood clearly.

We cannot change our vidhi (fate) because natural laws cannot be changed. But we can change our destiny. Like the example I posted earlier, travelling North of coimbatore I can reach only Delhi and not KK. That is fate. But my choice to go north or south is based on my thoughts. This is destiny. This alone can be changed. Travelling north I am influenced by the environment in that path. Travelling south I am influenced by a different set of environment.

Yatha Pindae thatha Brahmandae.....As is this microcosm (human body), so is the macrocosm. We can see the same rules operating in both the realms of the micro and macrocosm. Taking this fact into consideration, Jyothism is used to predict.

When you are born at a particular time and place, you are born with a fate. But with thoughts you can change your destiny and few of the results are obvious in this birth (drishya) and most of the results in later births (adrishya).

Changing your thoughts you change your destiny and not the planetary laws. But with your new thoughts your fate of the next birth is changed making you born according to the new planetary positions (reflections).

Hope I have expressed the views clearly to you now.

[Eelavar]

http://www.atributetohinduism.com/Advanced_Concepts.htm

Read that, definitely your conception of who is the Indian will change !

http://www.atributetohinduism.com/India_and_Greece.htm

Voltaire ,the famous western writer and philosopher, said, we must thanks the Indians to have gifted mathematics to Greeks who even didn't count over 10'000 !
:shock:

Pythagore theorem by example was well know by Indians.
Do you really think that Science as you heard began in Western ?

I do not think..
I'm living in West, and i know well what is science, i'm following a degree with Chemistry, Bio, Physics, Maths, and the brainwashing philosophy course !

Chaipau, explain how the Iron pillar of Delhi which is dated back to about -500 B.C can have still not rusted ?

Only scientific knowledge can permit such exploits...
What about Harappa ?
Without science, cities couldn't be built !

It's why i think your affirmation is humorous..

[Eelavar]

--deleted__ :oops:

[srivatsan]

Congratulationssss to me ( :evil: )and all those (especially r_kk, Kannannn, Mahadevan, Ealavar and all others) who participated in this thread, for having taken this to 100 posts :lol: :lol: :lol: (with out discussing anything technical about the title :twisted: - I am not blaming or complaining, It is my mistake and just mine....)

Anyways.....I hope atleast in the future I can contribute some technical aspects of Jyothisham.... :D

[srivatsan]

Buddhism actually only has one lie (reincarnation)

Cannot agree too..
How humans and other living beeings can evolve if their mind do not evolve ??

Karma is one of the great foundation of religions in India..

chaipau,

Why can we come without coming back another time ?

Guys, I have seen atleast some 20 posts referring to Karma and Vidhi...So why dont we discuss about Karma and Vidhi in a seperate thread? I thin, this will help us to direct this thread purely technical..... :)

[srivatsan]

Pradheep wrote: "Jyothism is often wrongly interpretted as planets controlling our lives. Instead the truth is that they reflect us and not controlling us....."

Now you are telling that our actions would determine planetary behaviour ?
If what happens is based on ones karma and if what is going to happen can be predicted by using platenary positions(which are only reflecting) as leading indicators, then ones karma would determine planetary positions. Hi Pradheep does this not sound ludicrous ?

Cummon Mahadevan, even looking at Pradeep's post from different point of views, I still can't understand how it implies that While Planets can reflect our fate, we can reflect their fate, as they reflect our fate" :D

[dsath]

A mistake many people make is to project themselves as they are into ancient times and think that ancient peoples had minds like ours, and to explain primitiveness by saying that they simply had not yet developed a sufficient body of knowledge to put the story of physics together.

It's probably more accurate to think of ancients as having minds like modern 12 to 13 year olds.

Cheers

Quiet hard to accept that school of thinking.
Without some basic understanding of what we call science, humans could not have evolved into the successful species that we are today. Yes a lot of progress has been made in the last 400 years than 4000 years before that. But dismissing all the innovations before the Greek as just observation and nothing scientific is Euro centric approach.
Sometime back i was watching a documentary about tools used in stone age period. A similar looking stone tool was found in NA and France. The expert jumped to the conclusion that Humans have crossed the Atlantic from Europe to NA even during the stone age period. Even for a second he didn't consider that the reverse could be true.
This example shows how unconsciously the whole concept of interpreting our past is very Euro-centric.
Greeks did contribute a great deal to science, but so did the other cultures.

Apologies for interrupting your flow about the topic in question.

[chaipau]

dsath wrote regarding my "school of thinking"




A mistake many people make is to project themselves as they are into ancient times and think that ancient peoples had minds like ours, and to explain primitiveness by saying that they simply had not yet developed a sufficient body of knowledge to put the story of physics together.

It's probably more accurate to think of ancients as having minds like modern 12 to 13 year olds.

Cheers

Quiet hard to accept that school of thinking.
Without some basic understanding of what we call science, humans could not have evolved into the successful species that we are today. Yes a lot of progress has been made in the last 400 years than 4000 years before that. But dismissing all the innovations before the Greek as just observation and nothing scientific is Euro centric approach.
Sometime back i was watching a documentary about tools used in stone age period. A similar looking stone tool was found in NA and France. The expert jumped to the conclusion that Humans have crossed the Atlantic from Europe to NA even during the stone age period. Even for a second he didn't consider that the reverse could be true.
This example shows how unconsciously the whole concept of interpreting our past is very Euro-centric.
Greeks did contribute a great deal to science, but so did the other cultures.



I agree with you that "experts" often make silly claims. By way of genetics it has already been established that the aboriginal North and South Americans were of Asian origin.

It has also been established that Europeans came from Indians.

But it is not permissable to site the claim of a silly expert and use that as a way to label me as "Euro-Centric" or inaccurate. To do so is to invoke the logical fallacy known as "guilt by association".

Thanks to Eelavar for those links, I have added them to my favorites list.

Due to what I think is defensiveness arrising from abusive Western claims of superiority I meet resistance to my much simpler and restricted claim that modern science arose from the line of thinking of a few Greeks, such as Heraclitus, Epicureus and culminating in Socrates, which was picked up again by Europeans in the Enlightenment.

Here is the limited definition of Science I am defending:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science


The key to understanding what I am talking about is to see how with certain Greeks and then the Enlightenment Europeans, Science became purely empirically oriented and divorced from philosophy. In other words, it became totally skeptical and cynical.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skepticism
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04582a.htm

The modern, common definition of the word cynical is this:

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=cynical

What that definition does not make clear is that there is a bias in the definition, a spiritual and religious bias, which turns the word into a negative, or pejorative word.

However, true cynics don't think of themselves negatively or pejoratively, rather, they recognize the bias in the definition and just roll their eyes, understanding that such biases are nearly impossible to combat. Sigh.

The history of much (most?) of Hindu or Indian philosophy is tied in with religion and like all ancient philosophies it was never based on empirical validation.

Eelavar gave a couple links to complimentary snippets written about India by some Westerners. But these links and the comments therein do not address what I am talking about, rather, they employ the wider definition of science as "all of human thought about matter and energy", which I have already in earlier posts made clear is not the definition I'm using or defending as purely Western.

Indian advancements in math are often cited as a sign of an Indian lead in the race of "science".

It is sometimes difficult for people to understand that math and "emprirical science" are not the same thing.

Many people in fact cry out "Heresy!" when they are first told that math is fantasy, it comes from the fantasy region of the brain, and is really a bodily function, not the discovery of something spiritual or of a universal essence.

This idea was already being offered by some of the Ancient Greeks, and was finally laid out clearly by Immanuel Kant in his "Critique of Pure Reason" and "Critique of Judgement".

http://etext.library.adelaide.edu.au/k/kant/immanuel/

(links to the works I cited are found near the bottom of the page of the link just given)

Math is a brain function, just as digestion is a stomach function.

Here at this link, the cynic Friedrich Nietzsche, who had read the Rig Vedas and studied what he could of Indian civilization, simplifies some of Kant's ideas:

http://www.msu.org/intro/content_intro/texts/nietzsche/nietzsche2.html

dsath wrote: "Without some basic understanding of what we call science, humans could not have evolved into the successful species that we are today"

The problem with such a claim will be clear from the above link to Nietzsche. dsath conflates "successful", "science" and "good".

So if anyone will take the time to read and understand the idea that math is a fantasy, and not based on empiricism, and then understand the cynical, skeptical perspective that demands hard proof for "truth assertions", then you will see that this way of thinking, which is the essence of Modern Western Science, arose to some prominence first in Greece with the cynics and skeptics, and later fully bloomed in late Enlightenment Europe.

Interestingly, Kant was not an atheist, but he was honest enough to admit that neither logic nor language had anything to do with God, gods or spirituality. He claimed that spiritual concepts came from intuition and no proof of them was even possible.

Modern Western atheists generally approve of Kant's work, except his claim of understanding the God or spiritual concepts by way of intuition. This "intuition" concept causes atheists to go into convulsions and drool and spit, they get red in the face, steam comes out of the nostrils and ears, and they experience heartburn (bile in the esophagus). So there may in fact be some validity to Kant's claim.

From Kant and Nietzsche, and later Ludwig Wittgenstein, one gradually understands that even language itself is bias and fantasy.

Hindu or Indian math has almost always been tied in with spirituality, with "proving" the Vedas and for instance, Joytisha. Hindu, as well as Jain and Buddhist philosophy all have this interwining of logic, spirituality, math and observation.

Some Western Christians also engage in this intertwining with what is known as the Creationist theory of Evolution.

Catholics, incidentally, now officially (per the Vatican) accept all emprically validated observations. So the Catholics agree with Kant, who was not a Catholic. This is a somewhat recent policy change for Catholics.


Regarding the iron pillar in Delhi that hasn't rusted: experts seem to think the low amount of corrosion is due to mild climate and certain other anti-oxident constituents that were already in the ore, or added to the ore in the smelting process. The iron is also considered very pure. All this simply suggests trial-and-error metalurgy (craftmanship) and alchemy.

We don't know the thoughts and the arrangement of concepts in the minds of those who made the pillar. They may have been very superstitious men.

To cite this iron pillar as something significant is not unlike the way that Muslims like to cite the "4 miraculous scientific revelations of the Koran" about mountains having roots, humans forming from embryos (blood clots), fresh and salt water mixing, and I forget the 4th, something about cloud formation?)

The down side of Empiricism:

The problem with Western Culture, however, lies in the unskillful comprehension by the poplace that empiricism should completely replace spirtuality. This leads to nihilism and an increase in intoxication, compulsivity, materialsim and social problems. The project is ultimately untenable.

To repeat: I have never made that claim that Europeans were superior because they invented modern science. My claim is based in objectively tracing the change in human thought patterns necessary for Modern Science to come into being.

It is too simplistic to simply say that all ancient cultures contributed to the rise of Modern Science. That method of reasoning is gratutious, and one could then extend it all the way back to the frist life form, and then to the formation of the solar system and universe.

What I speak of is only the meteoric rise of cynism and skepticism which had it's basis in Ancient Greece, whose texts then fueled the European Enlightenment.

That Muslims were the caretakers of those Greek documents for many centuries only means that they were the caretakers. They did little to further cynism and skepticism because in the Islamic world it was very hazardous to one's health to be a heretic, as it still is in most of the Islamic world today.

As I recall, it was somewhere around 800 AD that Islam began the suppression of the free study of Greek texts, due to the apparent threat to the social order that these texts presented.

Hindu's had some access to Ancient Greek texts, and may even have made early contributions to them, but for whatever reason cynicism and skepticism did not become popular in India.

The lack of Hindu cynicism and skepticism seems a little surprising, since the invention of negative numbers (debt) is often attributed to India. In fact, the formalization of the concept of debt, indebtedness, (changing a person into a financial instrument) is perhaps the one good claim to early cynicism that can be attributed to Indians.

OK, I think I've made myself clear now.

I am not Eurocentric. If the spirit of Modern Science had any other root, if it had arisen in Korea, for instance, I would champion that observation.

If Eelavar of anyone else can offer me reliable information regarding the history of cynism and skepticism in India, and the results of those movements, I am very interested in knowing about it.

And it may even be that the embracing of "Modern Science" is a decadence, not a superiority. I make no claims to superiority.

For all we know, the future may hold doom for the West and prominence for India. If that doom has sometiung to do with emprical science, what will we have to say then of it ? Indians will no longer want to be associated with it.

Were not the objections by Hindu society to the Young Calcuttans a revulsion against just such a movement?


Cheers

[Eelavar]

chaipau,

Thanks for your comments, i liked to read your post. :wink:

Iron pillar was not made by hazard, hazard don't exist... :roll:
Alchemy or Chemistry ? Nobody will be able to answer..
Nobody can say if Alchemy was more right than chemistry.
If we believe the Siddhas scripture, let me say that anciant Alchemy was more wonderful than the modern chemistry !
Siddhars were able to do GOLD with another metal, the metod is still not known by the modern chemistry !
The anciant known to use metal like mercury in the medicine !!
How human could know that use of mercury can be healthy if he never did science ?

Science was well developped in anciant time.
It is said that 64 differents science was teached in the vedic period..

Don't you really think that Science doesn't existed before Greeks ?

Let me ask you how Indians found the velocity of the light, and this fact :

Distance between earth and sun = 108 times sun-diameter

Distance between earth and moon = 108 times moon-diameter

??

How is it possible if Science didn't existed ?

This the last and most beautiful proof of my statements : If Indians didn't know 'science' before the existence of Greek thinkers and some modern scientists how were they able to build cities based and a maritime trade ? Cities like Harappa are well advanced
for their time.....

Please don't be irrealist, what Europeans scholars did for centuries it was to hide India's greatness...

What is not white is not pure and perfect, so that should be false....

Chaipau and the other please download these movies..

http://www.desitorrents.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=99&page=2&order=desc

[BBC - What the Ancients did for Us - The Indians]
[Discovery Channel: The Lost Temples of India]
[Ayurveda, The Art of Being - Indian ancient medicine nicely explained]
[Lost treasures of the Ancient World - India]


Without Science it couldn't be possible. :wink:

P.S : You must be registred if you want to see and download the movies.

[chaipau]

Eelavar:

Well, it's as if you didn't read my post. And certainly have not read the links I provided.

The writings of Immanuel Kant are truly amazing and I highly recommend them to all, however it is a chore to get through them.

The much smaller fragment of writing from Nietzsche, who admired Brahmins, is a partial condensation of Kant with Nietzsche's cynical coloring. Kant's dissertation is much dryer.

I keep emphasizing the limited definition of "Science" I am defending, and you keep expanding it to include any ancient human thought that may have turned out to be accurate.

For instance, Thomas Edison is said to have invented the light bulb, but he did not have a complete understanding of physics, rather, he tinkered endlessly until he got something to work.

So I never claimed Indians did not have a history of invention or mathmatical manipulations. Only that they lacked the cynicism and skepticism of some Greeks and Enlightenment Europeans

I wonder if we are encountering translational issues.

Can you tell me if there is differentiation in your native language between:

Science
Math
Empiricism
Invention
Philosophy
Moral Philosophy
Spirituality

What I mean is, I know there will likely be separate words for each of these, but are all these concepts linked together through religion and spirituality? Does it just not make sense to you to separate these subject matters and concepts?

In the West, assuming one has had a good education, these subjects have been treated separately since around 1900. It took until around 1900 for the cynicism and skepticism of the Enlightenment to begin to be widely adopted, and the year 1900 more or less marks the end of the Enlightenment and the beginning of the Modern period of Western thought. (Some claim the modern period began around 1880, but only a very few European intellectuals were "modern" at that time)

But I think it wasn't until around the 1950's that many scientists and mathmaticians began to accept the division of math and science. Until then, even Einstein would say that in math he could sense the mind of God, as if math would lead to the ultimate understanding of creation.

Now in a way, Einstein was correct in blending God and math, since both concepts are handled in the fantasy part of the mind. And I don't use the word fantasy as a negative, I use it only to separate it from what can be empirically validated.

I had a hard time letting go of math as something absolute, and the process of coming to grips with that understanding actually gave me headaches.



I never said "what is not white is not pure or perfect", I said some whites are extremely "cynical and skeptical". You put the words of others in my mouth? I would prefer some tasty Indian food. I really love palak paneer.

Also, because it may be hard for you to accept that I am not Euro-centric, you may not believe me when I claim that Europeans can't really take credit for the Enlightenment, because I feel it happened in Europe as a result of a confluence of historical trends that no single person or group can claim to have directed. In other words, it "just happened". But, it did happen, like an explosion.

Also, your statement:
"Please don't be irrealist, what Europeans scholars did for centuries it was to hide India's greatness... "

It is probably more accurate to say: "what Europeans scholars did for centuries was to overlook, undervalue or miscomprehend India's contributions to math and invention."

Also you have to understand that the book printing industry is a business, as I'm sure you do, and in the past it would take a generation for revisions to be printed and sold, and some schools, due to small budgets had to keep their books for many years, even after some of the information in them was outdated.

So new ideas and inventions spread slowly in the past.

Also, it took some time for enough Indians to learn to read and speak English and enough English to read and speak the various Indian languages, so that exhange of information could take place between Europeans and Indians, and not just between merchants, but between scholars as well.

The European study of India was still incomplete as late as 1900. Furthermore, India's study of itself was incomplete, and was joined by European archeologists and Historians.

The Aryan "White" supremacy concept was born of only a few minds, primarily in Germany, and then the idea spread widely for a while. This concept was never embraced by all whites, and most Americans likely never heard much of these ideas until around the time of WW2.

Christians who were properly educated in their religion never held this idea of supremacy. On the other hand, Jews did have the concept of supremacy built into their religion, thus they refer to all non-Jewish men as "goyem" (cattle) and non-Jewish women as "shiksas" (prostitutes). And of course then there is the Muslim view of others as "infidels".

But of course many Christians in the past have been occasionally scared by Hindu culture as it confuses them, and as they sense that Indian poverty is linked to what's going on in the mind. But for decades now Americans and Europeans have been vacationing in India, enjoying their charity work there, and some have traveled there for enlightenment at the feet of gurus.

Also, you should know that the words "All men are created equal" are a fundamental part of the US Declaration of independence against Great Britain, the colonial power that also "administered" India for 200 years.

So don't confuse Americans with British or other Europeans.

Many of the British administrators of India did look down their noses at the Indian people, as they did many others, including American colonists, many of whome were illiterate and unmannered.

I sense that you may have an over-simplified view of "whites".


Also, no one is perfect.

For about a year I worked on an off for an Indian, who I think was Brahmin, named Raj Dutt, who had a Phd in Math. What an arrogant bastard he was! Looked down his nose at me. Wore lots of gold jewelry and had gold rims on his top-of-the-line Mercedes.

Sometimes a good looking famous tennis player named Vijay would come around. Then it was funny to watch Raj kiss his ass.

But if you think of any, please offer me links regarding Indian development of cynical and skeptical thought, prior to the Young Calcuttans.

Thanks for those movie links, I'm going to download and view them.

Does anyone have a good recipe(s) for lentils? Sometimes I buy a pre-cooked lentil dish called 'Bengali Lentils" which is delicious, but I would like to try cooking something like that from scratch.

All American supermarkets have canned "lentil soup" on the shelves, but it is not Indian cuisine and is rather dull tasting.

Eelavar: when are you coming to Los Angeles? We should eat together!

namaste

[Eelavar]

chaipau,


Also, you should know that the words "All men are created equal" are a fundamental part of the US Declaration of independence against Great Britain, the colonial power that also "administered" India for 200 years.

Cannot agree...
I studied both American's and British's history..
United States is based on a genocide, you want or not.

Do you know who were the Indians of America ??...
They were brutally killed in North and South America, don't say the opposite, whole America was a continent were the native Indians were suppressed by the Europeans (Spanish, Portuguese, British, French, etc), by this fact the british who colonized America and later became Americans were not better than the British who colonized India !

Now look the situation..
Indians have not territory for them, they were stolen, you want or not. It's hard to believe but it is the Truth.

In less than 100 years, the majority of Indians of America were killed. Is it not right ?
If you don't agree please come to argue with my excellent history teacher ! She know everythings about that ! It's one of my favorite course that i like to follow, because it's very interesting.

Western richness is a rob of the Southern people.
Britishes robbed India (after the Muslims), and colonized America killing and supressing the natives. I heard that a Swiss doctor during the colonisation of West America gave, brought volontary uncurable diseases to the natives Indians of America in the intention to suppress the population. It's what i call a genocide.
I heard a lot of sad stories like this.
I personnaly think it's a shame that an American deny (or neglect) this holocaust..
Your quotation of the Constitution is senseless when we know that the human life is still not respected in USa, you can be killed by the 'Justice'... Who are they to kill criminals ? What a respect of the human value ! Null.

We don't need such constitution to respect the others.
It's so natural, but in western we need to say it and even to invent Human rights !

Chaipau,
In philo we are talking about Kant and Descartes. I know what you mean by an empirical science. It's a science based on experimentation and observation.. Do the anciants were not brained to experiment and observe ?
It's it not because we don't know their formulaes that we can say that Vedic people never developped Science as modern science.

Do you already heard about Hume ?
He was a great skeptical british thinker.


Only that they lacked the cynicism and skepticism of some Greeks and Enlightenment Europeans

How can you affirm that ?

Chaipau i'm not claiming that Indians are superior and better ! Not not ! Don't too think that i hate Europeans, it's not correct.

A person is a person, i don't look his ethny.


I sense that you may have an over-simplified view of "whites". I'm not a racist. :wink:

How can i prove that vedic people developped science ?

Ah i know, watch the video 'What the Anciants did for us', there are many facts to know..

Or even do you know that the greatest inventor, Nikola Tesla teached vedic philosophy and science ?
Trust me my friend, he was influenced by Swami Vivekananda and his knowledge..

All these are not well known facts, it's surely why Indian heritage is always denied...

http://www.ajnpx.com/pdf/NaturalPhil/Tesla/TeslaComplete.pdf

Why Tesla used Sanskrit term as Prana, Akasha, etc ??
Good reading..


To deny to Babylon, to Egypt and to India, their part in the development of science and scientific thinking is to defy the testimony of the ancients, supported by the discovery of the modern authorities. - L. C. Karpinski


The Jyotish (400 B. C) echoes the modern concept of the earth's place in the universe, the law of gravity, the kinetic nature of energy(Prove the existence of the so-called Free Energy, the Point Zero), and the theory of cosmic rays and also deals, in specialized but unmistakable vocabulary, with the theory of atomic rays. And what was thousands of years before the medieval theologians of Europe argued about the number of angels that could fit on the head of a pin. Indian philosophers of the Vaisesika school were discussing atomic theory, speculating about heat being the cause of molecular change, and calculating the period of time taken by an atom to traverse its own space. Readers of the Buddhist pali sutra and commentaries, who studied them before modern times, were frequently mystified by reference to the "tying together" of minute component parts of matter; although nowadays it is easy for a model reader to recognize an understandable description of molecular composition. By Charles Berlitz

See you my friend Chaipau. 8-)