Boy Who gives a True Picture of "Periyar"

[indian224080]

http://newstodaynet.com/2006sud/06mar/0803ss1.htm

Irecently interviewed M Venkatesan, a 'Dalit', whose family has been living in a slum area called Hanumanthapuram in Triplicane during the last 25 years. I am specifically mentioning the fact that he belongs to the Dalit community only to take the wind from the sails of self-styled, castiest and communalist Dravidian leaders who often pride themselves as saviours, champions, protectors and upholders of the backward and suppressed communities in Tamilnadu under the political umbrella of 'self-respect' and 'social justice'. Venkatesan is a bright, hardworking and precocious young man who has taken his MA in Philosophy from Vivekananda College, Chennai. He told me that when he joined the Vivekananda College, he had to face a barrage of difficult and unanswerable questions from his fellow students on the so-called 'revolutionary and unprecedented' contribution of 'Periyar E V Ramasamy Naicker' to the emancipation and liberation of the oppressed and suppressed communities in Tamilnadu. Finding himself in a state of siege, Venkatesan, being a Dalit himself, took the initiative of researching into almost all the publications brought out by 'Periyar Suyamariyadai Prachara Nilayam' and also into the writings of Periyar's contemporaries like Annadurai, M P Sivagnanam, comrade Jeevanandam, KAP Viswanathan, etc. Not being totally satisfied he went through all the magazines and journals like 'Viduthalai', 'Kudiyarasu', 'Dravida Naadu', 'Dravidan' etc, relating to the period during which Periyar lived in order to ascertain the truth and also to get hold of solid and irrefutable facts.

As a great believer in Hinduism and Hindu philosophy, his sensitive soul was tortured by the baseless attacks of Periyar on Hindu Gods and Goddesses. I would like to quote his own words in this context: 'I could not help viewing Periyar's uncivilised and barbarous attacks upon my chosen Gods and Goddesses and my own Hindu faith as wanton attacks on my dear and sacred mother who begot me. My search into the works of Periyar and my extensive reading of all his articles gave a rude cultural shock to me. I was greatly dismayed by the hellish hatred of Periyar towards my faith and towards my chosen Gods and Goddesses'.

Hatred of Brahmins and hatred of Hindu Gods, these according to Venkatesan were the only pith and pin of Periyar's public life. According to Venkatesan, Periyar was a man of virulent contradictions, inexplicable incongruities and inchoate insensitivities. As he very much wanted these facts to be made known to the public he has written a book in Tamil entitled 'E V Ramasamy Naickarin Marupakkam' (The other side of E V Ramasamy Naickar).

During the course of my interview, he told me with an anguished feeling that if only people cared to read my book on 'E V Ramasamy Naickar', then they will clearly understand how some sections of people in Tamilnadu, behaving like heads of cattle, were brainwashed into the hero-worship of E V Ramasamy Naickar, completely ignoring the inherent and fundamental contradictions in his self-proclaimed ideologies founded only on communal hatred of Brahmins and atheistic hatred of Hindu Gods. Venkatesan's view is that Periyar wrongly thought that when he attacked Brahmins, he was attacking Hinduism and when he attacked Hinduism, he was attacking Brahmins. At the same time, the comedy is that Periyar had very warm feelings towards the Gods of Islam and Christianity. 'I am really ashamed of those people who have veneration for E V Ramasamy Naickar and his perverse philosophy of selective hatred of men and things. I am no less rational or serious than him when I say this', observed Venkatesan.

Venkatesan emphatically declared that Periyar did nothing for the emancipation of the oppressed and suppressed dalits. On the contrary he was inimical towards all the dalits whom he treated with utmost contempt. His contempt for the dalits (90 per cent) was only exceeded by his hatred for the Brahmins (100 per cent). To quote from Venkatesan's book: Periyar said: 'The attempt to promote 'temple entry' and 'abolition of untouchability' by the Congress leaders should not result in the tragedy of people belonging to the backward classes getting reduced to the level of scheduled castes. Instead of attempting to raise the status of Scheduled Castes (Parayans), an attempt should not be made to reduce the status of backward Class (Sudrans) by relegating them to the levels of Scheduled Castes. On no account should the existing status of Sudrans be reduced to the level of Parayans'. Venkatesan says in his book that Periyar's contempt if not hatred for the dalits was shown in another context by his flash observation: 'One of the main reasons why there is an upward trend in the prices of clothes and textiles is that women belonging to the Scheduled Castes (Parachies) have started wearing blouses these days. The reason for growing unemployment in society is on account of increasing number of people belonging to Scheduled Castes (Parayans) taking to school education and higher education'. Venkatesan concludes that Periyar was a sworn enemy of dalits, their education, emancipation, growth and development. 'As a dalit I have come to this definite conclusion based upon Periyar's golden thoughts, observations and averments on my dalit community', says Venkatesan.

Even a cursory reading of Venkatesan's book will show how Periyar, who was always concerned with the self-respect of the Dravidian race, and more particularly the Tamil race, upheld the glory, the greatness and the grandeur of the Tamil language for over 70 years through his historic and time-defying observations and writings which will ring across centuries. Here are a few pearls from 'Periyarana' cited by Venkatesan in his book:

'For more than 40 years, I have been describing Tamil as a barbarous language (Kattumirandi Mozhi) used only by barbarians. When Brahmins and the Brahmin-dominated government wanted to make Hindi a State language, I started, to a very limited extent, advocating the promotion of Tamil language only to oppose the imposition of Hindi language. The only language that ought to replace Tamil is English. What is not there in English which can be found in Tamil Language?'

Periyar's patriotism and love for our nation are brought out in his own statement: 'Though I might have blocked the exit of the Englishmen from India, though I might have betrayed in a treasonable manner the cause of India's freedom, I have not been a party to the installation of sinners from the Brahmin community with its fall out effects of domination of people from Northern India backed by the lust for money power, paraphernalia of public offices and self-interest'.

I have quoted only very very sparingly from the book authoured by Venkatesan. In order to fully understand the truth-defying greatness of 'Periyar' and Periyarism in proper perspective, one has to read this book from end to end with great care and caution, inspired by the shadow ideals of 'self-respect' and 'rationalism'.

I view Venkatesan as a symbol of a new awakening among the youth in Tamilnadu. I am quite impressed by his zest for learning, thoroughness in his approach to academic research and above all his fearless gentlemanliness deriving its unassailable strength from his passion for truth and justice. Venkatesan lamented: 'The trouble with Tamilnadu is that prejudice often scores a victory over principle. Prejudice, which sees what it pleases, cannot see what is plain. I only wanted to pursue plain truth and nothing else'.

[Lambretta]

Good to hear this boy's story, Indian.......
The price tat ppl. of TN r paying for having chosen a wrong leader/role model....!
Unftly it may take much too long b4 ther r more youth like him w/ this awakening! :(

[selvakumar]

Good to hear this boy's story, Indian.......
The price tat ppl. of TN r paying for having chosen a wrong leader/role model....!
Unftly it may take much too long b4 ther r more youth like him w/ this awakening! :(

Nope Lambretta machan! Seems you are coming to the conclusion very fast.

EVR is always remembered for his brave fights in Vaikkam (Kerala) for the abolition of Untouchability.

He has a statue there. I am not able to agree with 99% of the material posted here.

EVR is a man (from a rich family) who worked in congress for a brief period. But Later left the congress and enrolled himself as a full time social reformer in the abolition of Untouchability.

[Lambretta]

Selva macha, y is it then, tat Periyar left creating a huge rift between one particular 'forward' caste (Brahmins) & the 'lower' castes??
Ther hav been instances wher other 'forward' castes had been oppressive towards Brahmins as well as 'lower' castes, yet his revolution was directed singularly at Bs.
If he'd wanted to abolish casteism or bring abt equality, this was certianly no way to do it.....ther were evn others like Gandhi who were against casteism/untouchability etc. but didnt resort to such extreme methods such as targeting one particular caste....wat hap'd in case of Periyar's revolution turned out to be a counter-aggression/domination based on caste.....
Also y was Periyar against Hinduism w/ reg. to chastity of women if he had genuine intentions? Where was the need to go against this as well if abolishing untouchability was his primary aim?
He'd openly made instigations against Hindu norms/ethics governing the role of women in the course of his revolution!

[srivatsan]

Good to hear this boy's story, Indian.......
The price tat ppl. of TN r paying for having chosen a wrong leader/role model....!
Unftly it may take much too long b4 ther r more youth like him w/ this awakening! :(

Nope Lambretta machan! Seems you are coming to the conclusion very fast.

EVR is always remembered for his brave fights in Vaikkam (Kerala) for the abolition of Untouchability.

He has a statue there. I am not able to agree with 99% of the material posted here.

EVR is a man (from a rich family) who worked in congress for a brief period. But Later left the congress and enrolled himself as a full time social reformer in the abolition of Untouchability.

EVR was just a rich person, who had nothing but hatred in his heart. His hatred for Brahmanas made him to fight for the oppressed and not his social awareness.......EVR's probable contribution to the society is his March against "Kallu" or country liqour in Vaikkam....rest of the comments will follow

[stranger]

EVR was just a rich person, who had nothing but hatred in his heart. His hatred for Brahmanas made him to fight for the oppressed and not his social awareness.......EVR's probable contribution to the society is his March against "Kallu" or country liqour in Vaikkam....rest of the comments will follow

Good to know that, srivatsan! 8-)

This post speaks more about you rather than EVR! :lol:

[stranger]

'For more than 40 years, I have been describing Tamil as a barbarous language (Kattumirandi Mozhi) used only by barbarians.

Who is describing that thamizh is a kaattumirandi language???

I thought Venkatesan is only 25-years old???

Must be the retired IAS offficer! :lol:

[stranger]

I have quoted only very very sparingly from the book authoured by Venkatesan.

I dont think so!

You manipulated EVERYTHING according to your wish!

You said Venkatesan is only 25-yr old but you say,

'For more than 40 years, I have been describing Tamil as a barbarous language (Kattumirandi Mozhi) used only by barbarians.

Did Venkatesan say that????

-deleted-

[stranger]

The boy who gives a truer picture of 'Periyar'
V SUNDARAM

Cunning Sundaram has used an IGNORANT Dalit Kid to sell his ideas about EVR and THAMIZH!

[srivatsan]

Good to know that, srivatsan! 8-)

This post speaks more about you rather than EVR! :lol:

yeah you are correct :D :rotfl: but what i mentioned is also a FACT.... :idea:

[stranger]

Look at this Sundaram!!!

How beautifully MANIPULATES his ideas as the ignorant dalit kid's.

This is ALSO a FACT!

OR Is Sundaram a DALIT too?????

[a.ratchasi]

Here are a few pearls from 'Periyarana' cited by Venkatesan in his book:

'For more than 40 years...

Guys, I think the above was overlooked!! :P

[selvakumar]

Srivatsan, It seems you are dealing with the PERSON EVR rather than his policies. :roll:

[Badri]

Giving the usual warning before things become ugly:

Restrict yourself to discussing the topic. This means

No name calling - either other hubbers or other personalities.
This means no "filthy person" type comments, Srivatsan
This means no personal attacks on anyone, stranger

[srivatsan]

Giving the usual warning before things become ugly:

Restrict yourself to discussing the topic. This means

No name calling - either other hubbers or other personalities.
This means no "filthy person" type comments, Srivatsan
This means no personal attacks on anyone, stranger

:notworthy: yes sir...as moderator's note...sorry for what has happened!

[stranger]

Guys, I think the above was overlooked!! :P

I think you are right. I could not understand his writing as he says he interviewed this kid, then he talks about that kid's book. I dont know what he means by "book"

Pray tell me,

* where can I get the book written by the Dalit kid (is that a hand-written copy?) As he very much wanted these facts to be made known to the public he has written a book in Tamil entitled 'E V Ramasamy Naickarin Marupakkam' (The other side of E V Ramasamy Naickar).
which comments on "periyarana"-written by EVR, which Sundaram is quoting here???

* Has this book written by this kid, been published???

* Is there any page #s from which he quotes???

[stranger]

I did do a google search on this book (written by this kid), Sundaram quotes, but not much luck so far!

Please help me, AR if you can! :smile2:

[stranger]

No name calling - either other hubbers or other personalities.
This means no "filthy person" type comments, Srivatsan
This means no personal attacks on anyone, stranger

badri!


Instead of attempting to raise the status of Scheduled Castes (Parayans), an attempt should not be made to reduce the status of backward Class (Sudrans) by relegating them to the levels of Scheduled Castes. On no account should the existing status of Sudrans be reduced to the level of Parayans'. Venkatesan says in his book that Periyar's contempt if not hatred for the dalits was shown in another context by his flash observation: 'One of the main reasons why there is an upward trend in the prices of clothes and textiles is that women belonging to the Scheduled Castes (Parachies) have started wearing blouses these days.

I understand name-calling is not right and I apologize for my misinterpretations.

However, quoting the terms like "parayan and parachies" is HIGHLY inappropriate and it should be regarded as "against hub-policy".

Even if it had been said in the EVR's dirty book (it must have been published 4 decades ago), I consider that "re-quoting" or "citing" such terms (he could have avoided that) by Sundaram (in the 21st century) in his article is BRUTAL and RUDE.

Gandhi used the term scheduled caste for politely addressing these people becuase they are afraid of telling their own caste names in the public. :(

And I know they get wounded and hurt when they read such terms.!

This is just like calling someone as a "n e g r o" in the 21st century. Sundaram should have known better than this!

Even Sundaram and EVR would have realised how it be like only if they were born as a scheduled caste! But they were not born such :cool:

[Lambretta]

Gandhi used the term scheduled caste for politely addressing these people becuase they are afraid of telling their own caste names in the public. :(
I thot he coined the name 'Harijan' to address them? :?

[indian224080]

Gandhi used the term scheduled caste for politely addressing these people becuase they are afraid of telling their own caste names in the public. :(
I thot he coined the name 'Harijan' to address them? :?


Stranger does these kind of things quite often while proving his point.
:o

[stranger]

what point???

Let us keep the rule same for everybody! :twisted:

[aravindhan]

Gandhi used the term scheduled caste for politely addressing these people becuase they are afraid of telling their own caste names in the public. :(
I thot he coined the name 'Harijan' to address them? :?
I read a long time ago that Gandhi took the term "Harijan" from the term "Thirukular" which Ramanuja coined a thousand years earlier, in an attempt to eradicate the humiliating overtones that were associated with the more usual "caste names". Gandhi was acquainted with the teachings of Ramanuja, so it's certainly a possibility.

[stranger]

aravindhan and lamby!

My point is, addressing them SC/harijan is civilized. I think gandhi did call them harijans and I am not sure who first called them SC. That point is well taken

Why an ex ias officer have the pleasrue of using such SLURS here???

Have you read other articles of him about


A hidden call for united global Hindu awakening!
V SUNDARAM

'Hindus of the world unite! You have nothing to lose but your self-adorned chains'

Thanks to the declared Congress policy of pseudo-secularism after independence, a policy which gives a special and extraordinary status above the laws of India to the so-called religious minorities and only a third-class status to the Hindu majority. The Hindus have been reduced to a hopeless position of Plebeians versus the Muslim and Christian Patricians, to a position of serfs versus the Muslim and Christian lords and to a position of journeymen versus the Muslim and Christian guild masters. Behind this all looms is Congress president Sonia Gandhi. To cite only one telling example, in Arjun Singh she has a pan-Islamic HRD Minister who is committed to the virulent philosophy of not allowing any reference to things and matters Hindu in all the NCERT text books.

Amidst this encircling and enlarging pseudo-secular and pan-Islamic gloom, there comes the statement from Sri Ashok Pande, chairman of the Hindu Personal Law Board from Lucknow. He has announced a cash reward of Rs 101 crores for the person who beheads painter Maqbool Fida Hussain who has made a nude painting of Bharat Mata, apart from making objectionable portraits of Hindu Gods and Goddesses. He has added: 'I will give Rs 101 crores to anyone who beheads the painter, but if this supari is accepted by Haji Yakub Qureshi, the UP Minister, who has made a similar announcement for the head of a Danish cartoonist, then the reward amount will be an additional Rs.51 crores'. By his 'bold' and 'no-less heroic' statement, he has made it clear to that Minister of Mulayam Singh Yadav's government Haji Yakub Qureshi and all others cast in the same mould that the silent and tolerant Hindus of India can no longer be treated as heads of sheep and cattle who can be dispersed at will by the threats of Muslim marauders, in secret or open collaboration with all the pseudo-secular political parties in India.

Yet another warrior who has heroically attempted to beat the terrorist record of Haji Yakub Qureshi is Jashubhai Patel from Gujarat. He has announced an award of one kg gold to anyone who would 'gouge' out the eyes and cut out the right hand thumb of MF Hussain for having blasphemously painted Hindu Gods and Goddesses and Bharat Mata in an obscene manner.

No one can endorse the lawless stand taken by these two emotionally upset Hindu leaders. At the same time it cannot be denied that the Hindus of India owe a deep debt of gratitude to Ashok Pande and Jashubhai Patel for creating a climate of awakening and fearlessness among the emotionally battered and shattered Hindus all over the world. This message will surely be taken as the beginning of a moral fight for right against all sorts of terrorism patronised, nurtured and nursed by all the pseudo-secular elements in India and the world. Terrorism is like a tiger. We cannot control it by attempting to climb from its back. By doing so, we will only end up by being in its mouth. Terrorism must be countered by moral courage all the time and physical courage only for the purpose of self-protection whenever and wherever necessary.

I am saddened by the political theory accepted by the UPA government which views all acts of anti-national Muslim terrorism as 'secular' and all acts of heroism and bravery in self-defence by the Hindus as 'communal', 'obscurantist' and 'superstitious'. Thanks to men like Arjun Singh, Ram Vilas Paswan, Lallu Prasad Yadav, Sonia Gandhi and the like, we are indeed living in very civilised times!

-deleted-

[aravindhan]

It is because they have been called parayan and parachy, they are NOT PROUD of being a FILTHY HINDU!

I would not use the word "Filthy" for obvious reasons, but I agree with your general assessment.

On the main topic, one can contrast Periyar's use of rationalism to oppose casteism - necessarily involving trying to dismantle Hinduism - with Narayana Guru's "Ezhava Shiva" approach - involving trying to reform Hinduism. Neither is wrong in itself, but one must also keep in mind that the approach of reforming Hinduism from within has been tried before in Tamil Nadu. Ramanuja's attempted anti-casteist "Vainavam" is perhaps the best example, but there are others. None of them proved sustainable: a few generations after the founder's death, people went back to their old practices and prejudices. I also wonder how suited the "Ezhava Shiva" approach is to being applied to the emancipation of not just one relatively cohesive caste, but a broad range of castes which also had their own issues as between themselves.

I do not know how things were in Tiruvallikeni in the 1950s and how much they have changed now, but coming as I do from rural Thanjavur, I find it very hard to understand how people can say Periyar's movement was a failure. As a fairly orthodox Hindu myself, I find Periyar's anti-Hinduistic polemic very painful, and I simply cannot agree with his agenda of dismantling Hinduism. But it changed the lives of so many for the better that it cannot be condemned. I do feel that Periyar has shaken Tamil Hinduism out of its complacency sufficiently that it is now actually capable of ridding itself of its uglier sides. I would quite like that to happen. Unfortunately, I don't think people like V. Sundaram are particularly helping us move in that direction.

[stranger]

I am not a supporter of periyaar and I never ever read his books.

K V criticism about EVR should definitely be appreciated.

But I dont understand why Sundaram needs KV to talk about "periyaarana"???

Why cant he take the "periyaarana" and crticize it???

He can himself comment on that BOOK!

He does not have to USE a young ignorant SC to strengthen his ideas.

Tell me why does he do that??????

Go through his other articles about great kshatriyaas part 1, part 2, part 3. You will get a better picture about this sympathizer, Sundaram!

[stranger]

Now he is talking about intellectual Kshatriya!!!!


An intellectual Kshatriya-III!

An intellectual Kshatriya - II

An intellectual Kshatriya - I


http://newstodaynet.com/2006sud/06marsun.htm

How would you defend, if I say, Sundaram cares more about Hindus (may be the Kshatriyass) rather than Indians???

he is a proud Hindu rather than an Indian!

[stranger]

I would not use the word "Filthy" for obvious reasons, but I agree with your general assessment

To me filthy is not as bad as addressing people as parayan and parachy as our Sundaram does (of course from EVR's book).

You cant realize that becuase you are not the one who belongs to that category. You missed your chance to enjoy that "degree" in the holy Hinduism!

[aravindhan]

Go through his other articles about great kshatriyaas part 1, part 2, part 3. You will get a better picture about this sympathizer, Sundaram!
Oh, people like Sundaram are doing a far better job of destroying Hinduism than Periyar ever did. One doesn't really need to read very much by them to realise that.


You cant realize that becuase you are not the one who belongs to that category. You missed your chance to enjoy that "degree" in the holy Hinduism!
This is, of course, a very valid point which is well taken. It's stupid to comment on something one hasn't experienced. Time to shut up!

[rajraj]

aravindhan: Good to see you back to inject some sanity here. You are right. You should have lived in Thanjavur district in the 40s and 50s to know what it was like for a dalit, called ADs (Adi dravidas). I lived in Tanjore dt during the 40s and 50s. I saw a lot I did not like. The ADs were not allowed to wear a veshti or sandals. They had to be seen in loin cloth. If you touched them you had to take a shower drenching your head and soak your clothing in water. They were not allowed to go to school. They were not allowed to drink from the well used by other castes. If they wanted water they had to drink from their cupped hands while the upper caste man/woman poured water. If they went to a tea stall they had a separate counter where they had to clean the glass tumblers they used themselves. They were not allowed to enter temples. That was what EVR was fighting against and he succeeded to some extent. Some of his tactics were unacceptable. As you said cleansing Hinduism from within was not successful. C.P.Ramasamy Ayyar and Rajaji tried and did not have much success.

People who post here are probably in their 20s and 30s and would not know anything about the Tanjore of the 40s and 50s. They are also probably city bred.

Please visit this thread often to enlighten people. This thread reminds me of equal opportunity and affirmative action in the US which was opposed by whites initially. Remember John Kennedy sending federal troupes to get a black admitted into a college in the south. It has been 40 years and now you see more blacks,hispanics and native Americans in the work force. Of course, the unintended beneficiaries are Indians, Pakistanis and othe Asians.

I very rarely participate in this section for a number of reasons. I hope you continue to visit this section.

[dsath]

[tscii:2d8fd222aa]RajRaj sir thanks for your posts. It surely tells us that we are living in a different world today.
One of the things about the movement IMO that changed the way we look at other people beyond their affiliations is the change of our names. Its only in Tamilnadu, we have initials of our dad’s name instead of the traditional caste name as a surname. No one for example with a list of names can have preconceived notions without even looking at them. Sure things have changed, but there is a long way to go yet.
The caste system is very powerful and crucial to the existence of Hinduism and may be that’s the reason why people with extreme feelings don’t want to let it go, Survival instincts I guess. Most of the civilizations that is tagged as ‘One of the Great’ all had slavery. It seems like a staple for a civilization to flourish. As you have said yourself, Americans not long had slavery. And Indian civilization is not very different. But the main difference is that we had ‘UNTOUCHABILITY’.
Even today Rice’s and Powell’s rise to power is considered as an achievement to the African-American community. Much news is made when an A-A does something that is done by their community for the first time something similar to what happened when R K Narayan was made the President.
I don’t know much about EVR, so cannot comment about that.
[/tscii:2d8fd222aa]

[kannannn]

[tscii:3401a00097]
People who post here are probably in their 20s and 30s and would not know anything about the Tanjore of the 40s and 50s. They are also probably city bred.
Yes, you are partially correct. But we also know what is happening in Keeripatti and Pappapatti panchayat elections. Change, if at all, is very slow in coming.

I am not a fan of Periyar, but a look at the post-independence history of Indian states shows that the Dravidian movement, with strong roots in the DK, played a major role in the revival of Tamil identity. Even today, the central government knows that it cannot arbitrarily put up milestones on National Highways in Hindi in Tamilnadu without strong opposition from the state government. We know that a Gujarat like situation can never happen in Tamilnadu and extremist religious organisations can never take root in Tamilnadu. We owe all this to the dravidian movement.

As for reform from within Hinduism, it could have been tried but what is the use? This religion is founded on casteism. What did Gandhi finally achieve? Look at Ambetkar's life! The man was so frustrated by repeated failures to gain rights for the oppressed class, that he converted to Buddhism, along with his followers. And an entire village in Tamilnadu converted to Islam, after trying in vain to gain access to a temple.

Even today Rice’s and Powell’s rise to power is considered as an achievement to the African-American community.
An achievement indeed! But did you know that Powell was a front-runner for Republican candidacy in the 1996 elections against Clinton? And he withdrew from the race, since he got repeated threats from racial extremists that his family would be harmed if he became a presidential candidate. So much for equal oppurtunity!![/tscii:3401a00097]

[kannannn]

-removing repeated post-

[stranger]

aravindhan: Good to see you back to inject some sanity here. You are right. They were not allowed to go to school. They were not allowed to drink from the well used by other castes. If they wanted water they had to drink from their cupped hands while the upper caste man/woman poured water. If they went to a tea stall they had a separate counter where they had to clean the glass tumblers they used themselves. They were not allowed to enter temples. That was what EVR was fighting against and he succeeded to some extent.

I feel bad for Venkatesan for coming up with an unfair conclusion! :cry:

nenju porukkudhillaiyE
nenju porukkudhillaiyE
intha nilaiketta manidhanai ninainthu vittaal :(

[stranger]

You cant realize that becuase you are not the one who belongs to that category. You missed your chance to enjoy that "degree" in the holy Hinduism!
This is, of course, a very valid point which is well taken. It's stupid to comment on something one hasn't experienced.

Aravindhan!

I must admit, I am in your boat. But I have tried my level best to understand how would it be like if I were born as an SC and afraid of telling my caste everywhere! Always scared that someone will say I belong to such and such when others are proudly claiming that I am a Kshatriya. It is terrible I think. I could not quite get it till now! I know I never will. :(

[a.ratchasi]

I did do a google search on this book (written by this kid), Sundaram quotes, but not much luck so far!

Please help me, AR if you can! :smile2:

Stranger, will keep you posted if indeed this book has been published. :)

[a.ratchasi]

That was what EVR was fighting against and he succeeded to some extent.

Sadly, the man who fought for the opressed became the common enemy for one and all.

rajraj, your flashback reminded me very much of the doings of our Indian forefathers in Malaya as told by my grandma. Indians were discriminated against by Indians and hardly by the British!! No matter how badly they treated one another, they all still banded togather to marginalise the lower caste people.

Sad but true!

[Badri]

I think, without being unduly judgemental, this is one of the times when the means become just as important as the ends.

While the ends were definitely noble, the means adopted may have been far from ideal, and that is why this whole fanatically pro EVR and anti-EVR factions have emerged!

I think all sane and decent individuals today would agree whole-heartedly that Periyar's aim of redressing the social injustice meted out to certain sections of society is definitely laduable. Where many balk is the means he has adopted.

No doubt, he thought himself justified in reversing the whole social setup, more to attain the rightful balance, but an eye for an eye is not the best means to bring about social equality!!! :?

Oh yes, in the end, everyone might be left with just one eye, and in that sense there could be equality, but at what cost? :roll:

Which is why, the means are just as important as the ends.

[Lambretta]

No doubt, he thought himself justified in reversing the whole social setup, more to attain the rightful balance, but an eye for an eye is not the best means to bring about social equality!!! :?
Oh yes, in the end, everyone might be left with just one eye, and in that sense there could be equality, but at what cost? :roll:
Which is why, the means are just as important as the ends.
My sentiments exactly Badri! :D

[dsath]

[tscii:5df72a364d]An achievement indeed! But did you know that Powell was a front-runner for Republican candidacy in the 1996 elections against Clinton? And he withdrew from the race, since he got repeated threats from racial extremists that his family would be harmed if he became a presidential candidate. So much for equal oppurtunity!![/tscii:5df72a364d]
Agreed, it will take a long long time for an African-American to become US President.
I remember reading a story when I was in 4th standard about Lord Buddha. In the story a lower caste shepherd boy helps Lord Buddha by milking his goat straight to the mouth of unconscious Buddha. Once recovered from exhaustion Buddha touches the boy and thanks him. I think the story had been in the book to explain the greatness of Buddha (Touching an untouchable).
This incident if true had happened couple of 1000 yrs before now. I can’t think of any other practice that such a long continuity. May be Christianity and Judaism has, but those practices also have undergone some changes. Even the Chinese and Japanese imperialism has come to an end. Buddhism was founded in India and how many Indians are Buddhists?
Why did not Buddhism flourish in India? Is it because there was/is no room to follow the caste system in that religion?

Mostly everybody agrees that the caste system is not very acceptable in today’s world.
Do you think we can root out a system which has been practiced for ages without any discontinuity by peaceful non violent protest? Until and unless the movement is radical we can never hope to root out the system.
Does anyone here believe that the government is not going to build a dam because Medha Patker is on an indefinite hunger strike?

[rajraj]

dsath,kannan: It took more than 180 years for a catholic,John Kennedy, to become president of the US. People did not think a catholic could win. But, the democratic party had the courage to let him contest. It will be a long time before an African American occupies the White House. It will happen.

[Eelavar]

Out of topic:

Kannannn is your avatar, Nikola Tesla ??

I admire so much this man of science and invention.

[aravindhan]

I think all sane and decent individuals today would agree whole-heartedly that Periyar's aim of redressing the social injustice meted out to certain sections of society is definitely laduable. Where many balk is the means he has adopted.

No doubt, he thought himself justified in reversing the whole social setup, more to attain the rightful balance, but an eye for an eye is not the best means to bring about social equality!!! :?

Oh yes, in the end, everyone might be left with just one eye, and in that sense there could be equality, but at what cost?

This is a very inappropriate analogy. Someone motivated by an urge to demand "an eye for an eye" seeks vengence. Periyar was not motivated by revenge, and he was most certainly not advocating "an eye for an eye". He did not argue that upper castes or believing Hindus should be punished by being discriminated against in the way the lowest castes were in his day - which is what an "eye for an eye" course of action would have been. He was trying to remedy a problem, not impose punishment.

Let me give you a fable instead.

*****

In a village there is an old, sprawling house, in which many different people live. Some parts of it are beautifully preserved with wonderful carved teakwood pillars and richly ornamented tapestries. But other parts are so dilapidated that they give no shelter against the wind, rain and sun to those who live in those parts. And occasionally pieces of the roof or wall fall down in those parts, killing the unwary occupant. High steel walls separate the two sections of the house.

The residents of the well-preserved portion of the house are proud of their carvings and their art. They can look over the wall if they want, but they prefer not to. For generations, they gloss over or ignore the plight of those who live in the dilapidated part. Once in a while, one of them looks over the wall. In shock, he goes over to the old decrepit part and tries to patch over a section of its roof. Or he tries to bring a few of its residents across to his section of the house. But it never lasts. The newcomers are sent back after he dies, the patches tear off in a storm. Things continue.

Then one day, a resident of the well-preserved part says: "This has gone on long enough. I can no longer tolerate our hypocrisy. Yet the situation is not easily remedied. The dilapidation is a part of the structure of the house, the rot is part of the very design of the foundations. The house can never be repaired. The only way to ease the existence of our bretheren on the other side of the house is to pull this house down, destroy its foundations and build a new, functionalist house on its site."

He picks up a hammer and crowbar, and begins to smash the steel wall. But not just the steel wall; he also attacks the finely-carved pillars and the walls on which the tapestries are hung. Not to avenge what the others have suffered all these generations, but because he is convinced that this is the only possible way of remedying the sorrows of the people of the other sections of the house. He calls to the residents of the other side of the house to join him. Many do because they believe him, a few do to ease the frustration and anger that burns in them, a few refuse.

Of the people who live in the good part of the house, some react with horror, some with anger, some with revulsion, some with pain. "You are right", some of them say, "we cannot let this state of things go on. But let's fix the other part of the house instead. Let us give the people there tools and materials to fix it with themselves. Think of the beauty you are destroying!"

"What beauty?" he retorts. "See what these tapestries depict! Look there, see how it depicts the residents of the other half as animals. And look at those carvings, see how gleefully they depict the expulsion of a few who tried to creep into our side of the house to flee a fierce thunderstorm. Not a single painting is left unmarred. This is ugliness, not beauty. And no, we cannot fix this rot. This house is built on rot. While it stands on its present foundations, the other side can never be repaired."

Time passes. The man who wielded the hammer dies. The house is still standing. In the meantime, much effort has been put into repairing the ruined portion of the house. The roof is patched and the walls are plastered. The steel wall is down, mostly, though jagged fragments remain as a trap for the unwary crosser.

"We have solved the problem," the residents of the good part congratulate themselves. "A little more work, and it will be completely fixed."

But a few on the other side complain, "No! Our walls and roof still leak. We still sleep on cracked, mouldy floors and live in dark, dingy rooms. Many rooms in the good side of the house remain locked, and we cannot enter them. Many offensive carvings and tapestries remain, much though you may try to explain them away as non-offensive. Why should we feel grateful when all this is still denied to us? Why should we even have any affection for this house? Can you really fix all of this without pulling the house down?"

*****

It is a travesty to characterise the dispute between the "pro-EVR" and "anti-EVR" factions, as you call them, as anything but a difference on the answer to this question. Let's be clear here. I think that the answer to the question is clearly "yes". However, I also think that if people continue to ask this question, it is because we have failed to convince them that the answer is "yes". And one can understand why. To respond to the question by saying, "Ah, but the house is beautiful" or "Hey, but we've done a lot in the past fifty years, look at your patched roof!" as some others on this thread (not you) have done, and as too many people in the real world do, is to completely miss the point. It shows that we're not even trying to understand why people are still attracted to Periyar's ideas.

[bis_mala]

The parable of the house is very interesting. Congratulations to Mr Aravindan for writing it so beautifully.

[dsath]

your explanation is very appropriate aravindhan sir.

[SRS]

I am not sure this term "social injustice" has any real meaning. No one will deny varna system did not allow for upward mobility of this or that caste. But is this really an injustice? The fact of the matter is, one only needs food and a home to survive. One does not need education, etc, unless of course one wants certain material comforts. The occupation is what provides the food. Now this seems like a simplistic argument. Where I live, there is a debate over illegal immigration. The government here is planning to give permanent residency to these ppl (on a temporary basis) for a simple reason: they are doing jobs no one else wants! Now what are these jobs? Cleaning restrooms, sweeping floors, meat packing industry, working in the fields. Of course all of these jobs pay minimum wage (or even less than that in some cases). The fact is, the well-to-do ppl here have no incentive to do such work. Now I will point out something even more important: someone has to do this work . Consider for example, that if the truck drivers went on strike, the economy could not function. And even if these lower-class ppl improve themselves a few generations down the line, the lower class is fixed; there will always be a lower class. Someone else will come to work in the meat plant and sweep the floors! There is absolutely no difference between this atheist 21st century Capitalist system and ancient varna system except that varna system did not provide the opportunity for upward economic mobility. What aravindhan's story ignores is that as soon as one part of the house becomes remodeled, there is immediatly another part that becomes just as dilipidated. Whether communist, capitalist, or varna, this inequality is a fundamental of the human nature, so why waste breath over it?

[dsath]

[tscii:f944ebd38e]Well the people living in the depilated part of the house in other capitalist countries have atleast a 20% chance of living in the other part may be in a couple of generations or sometimes even in their own generation. There are many self made millionaires who started their lives in slums. Can you qoute one such example pre British in India.
In India there is 0% chance of the people living in the depilated part of the house crossing over for 3000 – 4000 years.
The other civilizations had a system were the slaves could be freed, but no such luck for their Indian counterparts.
The debate is not if the varna system is good/bad. May be it was started with the best of intentions but what most of us are against are against the caste system as it is practiced now.[/tscii:f944ebd38e]

[Badri]

That was a beautiful parable indeed Aravindhan. My only doubt is "Was destroying the house the only remedy? Was the man wise in choosing that option? Or was it a product of haste?"

His intolerance of hypocrisy is laudable, but is his method of eradicating it and setting things right the best one?

You've yourself asked that question, and yet, the answer is not satisfactory. All that the man in question achieved was the mutilation of some carvings. He did not succeed in remedying the original situation, only ended up in creating fresh destruction!!!

I agree that just because we cannot always live long enough to see our works bear fruit, we should not sit still and do nothing. My concern, however, relates to the wisdom of the "doing".

This parable that you have so skillfully narrated is indeed a largely accurate representation of the EVR phenomenon. And the questions that I have asked wrt the house remain unanswered wrt EVR as well.

If the well shaped leg of a beautiful woman develops an ugly sore, the wise thing to do is to treat the sore, not cut off the leg. If existing tradition has patches of ugliness, it is only those that need to be attacked, not the entire super-structure.

That is all I wish to say.

I fully subscribe to EVR's motives and intentions. Only shake my head to his method.

[P_R]

Dear Aravindhan, marvellous fable. I am floored by your clarity of understanding and lucid expression....yet again.

I am taking the liberty of infringing copyright and copy-pasting the fable into an email for a couple of my friends who are (pardon the phrase) anti-EVR. I can never hope to the make the point clearer than this.

I request you not to take these long breaks from posting. It is not just for the sheer pleasure of reading you but also for raising the level of the debates and discussions, which you consistently do.

[kannannn]

That parable must sure clear some doubts Aravindhan.
Again, for those who think that reform is possible from within Hinduism, my question is simple: give an example where such a reform has succeeded. As stranger put it so clearly, it is not easy to appreciate the troubles the oppressed class went through for generations, while living on the other side of the social spectrum. In fact, I wonder how the so-called upper class would react, if given a taste of their own medicine, given their resistance to basic reform!


Out of topic:
Kannannn is your avatar, Nikola Tesla ??
No, the man is George Orwell, the author of 'Animal Farm' ('All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others') and '1984' ('Big Brother watching').
Coming to think of it, '1984' can be construed as much as a commentary on the Varna system as it was on the Communist rule. Deny the lower class ('proles', he called them) any redeeming knowledge and keep them oppressed, while restricting power to the upper class ('The Party', he called them) through constant supervision of the proles.

[dsath]

[tscii:64b591f648]

All that the man in question achieved was the mutilation of some carvings. He did not succeed in remedying the original situation, only ended up in creating fresh destruction!!!

Its hard to agree with that. The Dravidian movement’s one great achievement till date is abolishing the caste specific surnames. This has eliminated hidden discrimination to a large extent.
For a recruitment officer, there is no difference between A.Ramesh and B.Ramesh (except the content of the CV).
But there is a lot of difference between Ramesh CasteA and Ramesh CasteB esp if the Rec officer happens to belong to one of the castes. It’s hard under the circumstances to remain indiscriminate.
The onus to remain neutral is no longer on the individual and the system takes care of it.
Without EVR’s movement I couldn’t see this happening.
[/tscii:64b591f648]

[dsath]

[tscii:6040b9e7b3]
That parable must sure clear some doubts Aravindhan.
Again, for those who think that reform is possible from within Hinduism, my question is simple: give an example where such a reform has succeeded. As stranger put it so clearly, it is not easy to appreciate the troubles the oppressed class went through for generations, while living on the other side of the social spectrum. In fact, I wonder how the so-called upper class would react, if given a taste of their own medicine, given their resistance to basic reform!

Raja Ram Mohan Roy succeeded in abolishing Sati. So reform within Hinduism is possible, but not for the caste system.
When we read about our Independent movement, how many ‘Freedom Fighters’ do we come across who are from the lower strata of the caste system. Most of them belong to the upper caste strata. I wonder why?
[/tscii:6040b9e7b3]

[kannannn]

dsath, I did mean the caste reform. As for rights to women, Hinduism has indeed come a long way, though there is still much distance to travel. But we should remember that what we have achieved with respect to women's rights was borne out of economic necessity, atleast in part. Nor did RR Mohan Roy have it easy, but he succeeded due to the unrelenting support of the rulers of the period.

[Lambretta]

As for rights to women, Hinduism has indeed come a long way, though there is still much distance to travel.
And I suppose other religions of the world hav already completed their distances in this regard?? How many of them hav always been better-off than us?
The way I see it, Hinduism had originally instituted far better rights/dignity for women as opposed to the too conservative Middle East & the once fanatically orthodox but later too "free" West!
Wat was necessary was to abolish certain evil practices, tat too had made thier way into Hinduism at a later stage, to hav the true image of women realised to society. Many of us successive generations who were born when these practices wer still existant/just abolished hav grown up w/ the -ve impression tat Hinduism was a religion/culture oppressive to women.....wich was even unjustly advocated by Periyar's revolution!

[dsath]

Lambretta,
Why do we have to compare religions and civilizations? All religions in the world started of to help the human kind.

The point is are we happy with what we have now and are there certain elements which require change and how can we go about changing it with minimal damage to all concerned.

Why should we look at the West, East, North or South and content/discontent ourselves with the thought that they are less/more happier than us?

[kannannn]

As for rights to women, Hinduism has indeed come a long way, though there is still much distance to travel.
And I suppose other religions of the world hav already completed their distances in this regard?? How many of them hav always been better-off than us?
Lambretta, you are putting words in my mouth. I never said other religions are better. I just said, Hinduism still has a long way to go. That could be true for any religion, and it is certainly true for Islam.

Wat was necessary was to abolish certain evil practices, tat too had made thier way into Hinduism at a later stage, to hav the true image of women realised to society.
I ask, time and again, how these practices crept into Hinduism.

[Lambretta]

Lambretta, you are putting words in my mouth. I never said other religions are better. I just said, Hinduism still has a long way to go.
OK y do u think so in case of Hinduism? How do u suggest it cud possibly get better?


I ask, time and again, how these practices crept into Hinduism.
Even I hav consulted various sources reg. these practices. Wat cud be the most reason is tat customs like Sati & Child marriage wer introduced at a time wen the integrity of women (esp. unmarried) wer considered to be at stake, so it wud've been wen India was first under foriegn invasion, wen freedom/security of women was opposed (u may be aware tat they were abducted in large nos., bundled up into harems etc.). Even the 'purdah' system (still existant in the north) came into practice at tat time.

[Lambretta]

Lambretta,
Why do we have to compare religions and civilizations? All religions in the world started of to help the human kind.
No doubt they did, but the actions of certain fanatics & pseudo devout ppl. along the way infused practically every religion w/ unwanted practices & tats wat we shud emphasise on. Sorry if I sounded offensive, but from sum of the comments here, it sounded as if sum r bent upon criticising a certain religion & citing it responsible for the degradation of women (wich, as I said, is wat Periyar had wrongly propogated among ppl.!) & I'd noticed it has grown too common for the newer gens. to start degrading our own culture by comparing it w/ the 'liberal' West etc. w/out realising tat they've had their dark days too.


The point is are we happy with what we have now and are there certain elements which require change and how can we go about changing it with minimal damage to all concerned.
Tat may be ur point no doubt, & sounds perfectly rational....but I'm not sure to wat extent u'v noticed tat in today's India the moment the word 'change' is mentioned, the new Indian society take it as a kind of revolution srtiving to wipe out the entire principle rather than the 'certain elements' alone wich require change! Tat is wat I detest & insist tat we all watch out for!
Incidentally, cud we be happy w/ the change tat is going on in our midst today, either?

[dsath]

[tscii:318eb87607]The certain elements that require change happens to be half or even three quarters of the house (in reference to Aravindhan’s fable). If a powerful element like caste system has to be eliminated then, nothing short of a revolution can achieve it and that is what EVR attempted.
To stand against a system which has been successful in maintaining highly discriminating ethics for as long as we can account for Indian history, then what kind of means do you expect anyone (let alone EVR )to take.
[/tscii:318eb87607]

[Eelavar]

kannann,

i know well Animal Farm, because i read and analysed it in French, 'La ferme des animaux'.

George Orwell have exactly the same face than the famous Serbo-Americano scientist, Nikola Tesla.

[anticrap]

I am not sure this term "social injustice" has any real meaning. No one will deny varna system did not allow for upward mobility of this or that caste. But is this really an injustice? The fact of the matter is, one only needs food and a home to survive. One does not need education, etc, unless of course one wants certain material comforts. The occupation is what provides the food. Now this seems like a simplistic argument. Where I live, there is a debate over illegal immigration. The government here is planning to give permanent residency to these ppl (on a temporary basis) for a simple reason: they are doing jobs no one else wants! Now what are these jobs? Cleaning restrooms, sweeping floors, meat packing industry, working in the fields. Of course all of these jobs pay minimum wage (or even less than that in some cases). The fact is, the well-to-do ppl here have no incentive to do such work. Now I will point out something even more important: someone has to do this work . Consider for example, that if the truck drivers went on strike, the economy could not function. And even if these lower-class ppl improve themselves a few generations down the line, the lower class is fixed; there will always be a lower class. Someone else will come to work in the meat plant and sweep the floors! There is absolutely no difference between this atheist 21st century Capitalist system and ancient varna system except that varna system did not provide the opportunity for upward economic mobility. What aravindhan's story ignores is that as soon as one part of the house becomes remodeled, there is immediatly another part that becomes just as dilipidated. Whether communist, capitalist, or varna, this inequality is a fundamental of the human nature, so why waste breath over it?

Well, the point here is that everything is decided by birth while the individual has no control over what he wants to do.

If some people are so convinced by varna system,then why don't we reverse the varnas , and let the brahmins do the dirty work for the next 2000 years and let the dalits occupy the top of totem pole?
After all somebody has to do the dirty work.

[Lambretta]

If some people are so convinced by varna system,then why don't we reverse the varnas, and let the brahmins do the dirty work for the next 2000 years and let the dalits occupy the top of totem pole?
Well, if it makes things better, the latter is already happening now isnt it, tks to the reservation system?
And no, I dont believe tat wat sumone is supposed to do shud be decided by birth.

[Lambretta]

If a powerful element like caste system has to be eliminated then, nothing short of a revolution can achieve it and that is what EVR attempted.
But do we see wat he attempted or wat the outcome of his attempts were??
This was the outcome:
He did NOT succeed in abolishing the caste system out of TN (it is very much still there) but instead in reversing the poles, ie., merely making one caste (or groups of castes) become superior to wat was formerly a 'stronger' caste. In this case, the feeling of caste discrimination remained, only the other way round. And again, he did not break the domination of ALL the then 'stronger' castes & the discrimination they practised but jus ONE particular caste. How then, can this be applauded as a complete success? TN is not at all a caste-less state (wich wud sound contradictory if the reservation system exists in the 1st place!)

[stranger]

If some people are so convinced by varna system,then why don't we reverse the varnas

See you need to realize that you are responding to someone who has never born and brought up in a situation where, a beautiful young girl can be an easy prey to a "higher class" (ironically "untouchability" does not protect her that is the pity here) as she happened to born as a harijan. She does not have any right. She can be raped by animals and the animals can get away with it since she is a harijan.

We cant use filter in the HUB to isolate people those who hardly know about the cruelty in the caste system! But you can EASILY SEE the IGNORANCE from their posts - if you are intelligent enough to see the insensible argument 8-)

[dsath]

[tscii:88dfc057dc]No Periyar did not succeed in abolishing the caste system. So were many people before him who took a stance against the caste system. In the list of people who fought against the caste system, his movement has made the largest change.

Coming to think of it all reformers who attempted to eradicate the no so good elements in Hinduism have not been successful within the framework of the religion.

Starting from the likes of Buddha to recent ones like RR Mohan Roy all had to branch away from Hinduism in order to get their message across.

S probably the caste system will stay as long as Hinduism flourishes.

Reservation – oooh a very touchy topic and lambretta you could start a separate thread to discuss it (if you so desire).
[/tscii:88dfc057dc]

[stranger]

He did NOT succeed in abolishing the caste system out of TN

Fine!

as you are from AP, who is ruling you for the past 30 years???

Only kammaa or reddy! Am I correct???

TN is ruled by

Rajaji

Kamaraj

Annadurai

Karunaanidhi

MGR

Jeyalalithaa

Panneer selvam

None of them belong to a same community. That has not been achieved in our neighboring state like AP. Note: None of the CMs of TN belong to the community of EVR!

Do you see the change?????

Tell me when Kamma-reddy ruling is going to come to an end in your state???

we have already made great progress!

[rajraj]

stranger: Here is a more complete list:

http://www.tn.gov.in/tnassembly/cmlist-1920.htm

[stranger]

Thanks, raj! :D

[stranger]

1 Sri.Neelam Sanjeeva Reddy 01/11/1956 11/01/1960
2 Sri Damodaram Sanjivayya 11/01/1960 12/03/1962
3 Sri (Dr)Neelam Sanjeeva Reddy 12/03/1962 29/02/1964
4 Sri Kasu Bramhananda Reddy 29/02/1964 30/09/1971
5 Sri P.V.Narasimha Rao 30/09/1971 10/01/1973
President's rule 10/10/1973 10/12/1973
6 Sri. Jalagam Vengala Rao 10/12/1973 06/03/1978
7 Dr Marri Chenna Reddy 06/03/1978 11/10/1980
8 Sri Tanguturi Anjaiah 11/10/1980 24/02/1982
9 Sri Bhavanam Venkataram 24/02/1982 20/09/1982
10 Sri K.Vijaya Bhaskara Reddy 09/01/1982 09/01/1983
11 Sri N.T.Rama Rao 09/01/1983 16/08/1984
12 Sri N.Bhaskara rao 16/08/1984 16/09/1984
13 Sri N.T.Rama Rao 16/09/1984 09/03/1985
14 Sri N.T.Rama Rao 09/03/1985 03/12/1989
15 Dr.Marri Chenna Reddy 03/12/1989 17/12/1990
16 Sri N.Janardhana Reddy 17/12/1990 09/10/1992
17 Sri K.VijayaBhaskara Reddy 09/10/1992 12/12/1994
18 Sri N.T.Rama Rao 12/12/1994 01/09/1995
19 Sri N. Chandra Babu Naidu 01/09/1995 14/05/2004
20 Dr.Y.S. Rajshekhara Reddy 14/05/2004
----------------------

Lamby:

Why only Reddy and Kammaa rule you?

Why only forward community deserves to rule you all?

When are you going to get democracy in your state?

[SRS]

[quote=SRS]
Well, the point here is that everything is decided by birth while the individual has no control over what he wants to do.

If some people are so convinced by varna system,then why don't we reverse the varnas , and let the brahmins do the dirty work for the next 2000 years and let the dalits occupy the top of totem pole?
After all somebody has to do the dirty work.

The point I am making is that for someone to occupy the "top" of the totem pole, another has to occupy the "bottom." It is irrelevent who is occupying the top or bottom, or for what reason; all that matters is that such positions exist to begin with. Furthemore, you cannot fully level the playing field; even though most countries today offer free education, and cheap housing, every society has its share of poverty. Logical analysis next leads one to ask, what can be done with such people? In the final analysis, the best solution is to offer them some kind of work. What kind of work you offer them is irrelevent. What you can be sure of is that they will most likely be doing low-wage jobs which the higher classes in society have no incentive to do. Now you can promise their children a better future, but as I said in the last post, this will not eradicate poverty. That is why there are 30,000 homeless people in the US today. Now, I challenge you to tell me what the difference is between a homeless Westerner sleeping under a bridge, eating from a soup kitchen, and using the latrine facilities of public places, and a shudra in Manu's day? Do you think the Western fellow feels better because the law says he can do whatever kind of work he chooses? Do you think he feels better because the law does not explicitly label him "shudra"? The law does not require a single employer to hire him! These are the homeless; I did not mention those who live in housing projects, the thousands of children in orphanages, those living in trailer parks, etc. Now some here are arguing that poverty is due to discrimination. But I disagree. As I said before, poverty is the result of having a class-based (or caste-based) society. There is no point in blaming Manu for this; he simply offered a reasonable solution. Do not forget, while India had varna, the rest of the world had slavery!

[srivatsan]

There is no point in blaming Manu for this; he simply offered a reasonable solution. Do not forget, while India had varna, the rest of the world had slavery!

I accept that not all in the society are same and an all-equal-scociety will only lead to its own destruction...

But Manu's socail justice for Shudras are completely objectionable....if you want I can show you Manu's cruel words..against Shudras...

[devapriya]

Friends,

The Justice party of E.V.RAMASAMY Naickr is the party for Upper Caste Non-Brahmins enjoyed powers by supporting British and doing Anti Indian Freedom works.

EVR declared August 15, 1947 as sorrowful as India got freedom.

EVR said Tamil is Kattumirandi Basha, and Tholkappiyam and Tirukural were written to propagate Vedas.

Dev.

[aravindhan]

why don't we reverse the varnas, and let the brahmins do the dirty work for the next 2000 years and let the dalits occupy the top of totem pole?
Well, if it makes things better, the latter is already happening now isnt it, tks to the reservation system?
Actually, it isn't. I read a study some time ago which showed that the relative economic situation of Brahmins in Tamil Nadu was almost the same today as it was before independence. The main change has been that they have moved from the traditional public jobs (government, administration, PSUs, banks, universities) to the private sector. As a community, they have not suffered significant detriment from reservation.


He did NOT succeed in abolishing the caste system out of TN (it is very much still there) but instead in reversing the poles, ie., merely making one caste (or groups of castes) become superior to wat was formerly a 'stronger' caste. In this case, the feeling of caste discrimination remained, only the other way round.
Lambretta, read Rajraj's description (http://forumhub.mayyam.com/hub/viewtopic.php?p=478148#478148) of what the caste system was like before the suya mariyadai iyakkam began. Compare the discrimination we have today with what we had then, and you'll see what Periyar's movement succeeded in doing. Sure it didn't abolish the caste system. Sure it disproportionately improved the lot of the so-called "middle castes". But it also transformed the lives of the lowest castes. It's difficult to explain just how profound this effect was. You should speak with the so-called "Adi Dravidas" of rural Tamil Nadu, particularly those who are in their 70s and remember the old days. Hear them talk about what it meant to them to be told, and to start to believe, that they, no less than Brahmins, had a right to suya mariyadai, to self-respect. Then you'll understand just how much Periyar achieved.


Sorry if I sounded offensive, but from sum of the comments here, it sounded as if sum r bent upon criticising a certain religion & citing it responsible for the degradation of women (wich, as I said, is wat Periyar had wrongly propogated among ppl.!)
The degradation of women is something that has happened in most societies at some stage or the other - it isn't unique to India. But in India, Hinduism, whether or not it was originally the cause of this degradation, was being used to justify it. To that extent, it was therefore to confront head on the aspects of Hinduism that were so used.


I'd noticed it has grown too common for the newer gens. to start degrading our own culture by comparing it w/ the 'liberal' West etc. w/out realising tat they've had their dark days too.
Cultures stagnate when they resist all forms of foreign influence; they prosper when they engage critically with foreign cultures. When the West had their dark days, they did not fight shy of learning what they could from the Arab world and - both directly and through them - India. There are values prevalent in parts of the west - the Enlightenment's emphasis on the scientific temper and the equality and dignity of man, the Scandinavian commitment to social equality, and so on - that would enrich Indian culture if they were absorbed better than they are today. It's no answer to say that the west itself hasn't fully put these values into practice.

[mahadevan]

SRS wrote "Do not forget, while India had varna, the rest of the world had slavery!"
Absolutely buddy now get ready to be on the other side. Enjoy your slavery !

[dsath]

Do not forget, while India had varna, the rest of the world had slavery!
When the rest of the world had slavery we had untouchability and when the rest of the world got rid of slavery we are still hesitant (to put it midly).
The point is nothing is decided at birth and does not continue for a whole lot of generation.
Its economic structure affecting the social classes vs the social structure affecting the economic system.

[Lambretta]

[tscii:c39892a02d]
Coming to think of it all reformers who attempted to eradicate the no so good elements in Hinduism have not been successful within the framework of the religion.
Starting from the likes of Buddha to recent ones like RR Mohan Roy all had to branch away from Hinduism in order to get their message across.
Wat abt Swami Vivekananda?


Reservation – oooh a very touchy topic and lambretta you could start a separate thread to discuss it (if you so desire).
[/tscii:c39892a02d]
Reservation strictly speaking, shudnt be the main concern of the topic here, but u cudnt ignore it if u talk abt caste, as it had sprung out of the same caste issue tat we wish shud be done away w... :D

[Lambretta]

Fine!
as you are from AP, who is ruling you for the past 30 years???

Only kammaa or reddy! Am I correct???

TN is ruled by

Rajaji

Kamaraj

Annadurai

Karunaanidhi

MGR

Jeyalalithaa

Panneer selvam

None of them belong to a same community. That has not been achieved in our neighboring state like AP. Note: None of the CMs of TN belong to the community of EVR!

Do you see the change?????

Tell me when Kamma-reddy ruling is going to come to an end in your state???
we have already made great progress!
But when did I say tat AP is caste-less state?? Plse. dont put words into my mouth now. :)
And 2ndly AP didnt undergo a major 'revolution' as TN did under EVR, to be possibly comp'd w/ TN in this regard!
And btw, among TN CMs, even if none of them so far belonged to EVR's caste, werent ther ne of them who got to be CM on caste basis (esp. Karunanidhi) or bcos they came from film background (thus winning mass support)?
In today's scenario, if Rajaji tried to become the CM wat wud be the chances of him succeeding against say, Karunanidhi?
And speaking of progress/democracy tat u mention, didnt Karunanidhi implement an increase in existing caste-reservations in TN during his tenures as CM, favouring his own caste?
So how cud this be regarded as democratic?
Or if u still wish to compare w/ AP, altho we were ruled by Kamma/Reddys (except PV Narsimha Rao), they didnt favour their own castes thru reservations, even tho they were dominant among FCs.

[Lambretta]

Cultures stagnate when they resist all forms of foreign influence; they prosper when they engage critically with foreign cultures.
Yes no doubt cross-cultures r necessary for prolonged survival of ne nation in the world......I didnt say a society shud totally stand aloof.......wat I ment was, said society must hav the discrimination as to wat is worth taking influence in from the foriegn culture & wat is not. And yes, its true tat in the West ther is a growing (albeit slowly) interest in Eastern (esp. Indian) philosophies for absorbing into daily life as they hav realised how beneficial it wud be for an otherwise empty lifestyle......but how far is India taking the best from the West (or evn our own culture) today?

[pavalamani pragasam]

From a book review in today's "Times of India":

The review is written by C.S.Lakshmi, the founder trustee of SPARROW-Sound & Picture Archives for Research On Women.

"During the time of Nehru, a Scheduled Caste Conference was held in Lucknow. Babu Jagjivan Ram presided over i. In his talk Nehru said that people who do the menial job of carrying excreta were greater than God. Babu Jagjivan Ram got up immediately and said that they had done this job for a long time and had already become Gods; maybe the castes Gandhi and Nehru belonged to should now take it up and become Gods. The conference came to an end after that.

"The incident was mentioned by Illaiya Perumal, a veteran Congressman who submitted a national commission report on the status of the scheduled caste in 1969, long before the Mandal Commission Report, in a long interview that he gave when he was 75 years old.

"The inciidienit is a clear example of how the caste system was never seen as a major issue in development. It is this attitude of not directly confronting the issue of caste that Gail Omvedt is concerned about. Her book, "Dalit Visions"(Orient Longman), elaborates and questions the sensibility that equates Indian tradition with Hinduism and Hinduism with Brahminism.

"Omvedt rightly points out that the Vedas have been seen as the fundamental texts of Indian culture and the essence of Indian culture is seen as residing in the Aryan heritage. Even well-meaning secularists use language that emerges from a Hindu ethos, according to her. Omvedt elaborates on how this attitude and language have permeated all the movements for change including the women's movement. Important regional identity movements like the Self-Respect Movement of Periyar failed to carry the Dalits along with them. Omvedt suggests that the legacies of Jyotiba Phule and Abedkar and the voices of Tarabai Shinde and Pandita Ramabai have to be taken into consideration if we are serious about building a secular, democratic state. And this can be done only if we first reject everything that has been constructed in the name of Hinduism.

"Omvedt rejects what has been seen and defined as Hinduism but she does believe that there is an Indian tradition with many facets to it. She says "freedom and equality can indeed find their roots in tradition if that tradition is critically unerstood".This requires a process of reinterpretation, according to her. She feels that feminists have a major contribution to offer in this regard. She gives the example of Sita of Raveri, who is a Sita on her own facing the world. Similar Sitas are available in many other folk versions. So also other mythological characters like Karan, Vidura, Shambuk, Ekalavya, Ravana and Tataka who can be reinterpreted to understand tradition differently. As shashikant Hingonekar says in his poem, if only Ekalavya had kept his thumb, history would have been different. Those interested in writing a different history of India would not only agree with him but will also agree with Gail Omvedt for putting forth the suggestion of discovering a different Indian tradition."

[Lambretta]

Impressed by ur depth of knowledge on this subject, PP ma'm! Seems to hav given a more concise idea of the topic in qsn.! :D

[pavalamani pragasam]

Thanx, Lambretta! Please don't forget the tag line I keep as my signature!

[Lambretta]

Please don't forget the tag line I keep as my signature!
Oh, not at all! :wink: :D

[dsath]

And this can be done only if we first reject everything that has been constructed in the name of Hinduism.
I thought the EVR movement attempted excatly that.

As shashikant Hingonekar says in his poem, if only Ekalavya had kept his thumb, history would have been different.
We missed a chance for History to be different, but what will be deemed as history in the future - 'our present' can be changed by us, if only we are willing.

[dsath]

[tscii]
Coming to think of it all reformers who attempted to eradicate the no so good elements in Hinduism have not been successful within the framework of the religion.
Starting from the likes of Buddha to recent ones like RR Mohan Roy all had to branch away from Hinduism in order to get their message across.
Wat abt Swami Vivekananda?



What are the elements that he reformed please?

[anticrap]

[quote=SRS]
Well, the point here is that everything is decided by birth while the individual has no control over what he wants to do.

If some people are so convinced by varna system,then why don't we reverse the varnas , and let the brahmins do the dirty work for the next 2000 years and let the dalits occupy the top of totem pole?
After all somebody has to do the dirty work.

The point I am making is that for someone to occupy the "top" of the totem pole, another has to occupy the "bottom." It is irrelevent who is occupying the top or bottom, or for what reason; all that matters is that such positions exist to begin with. Furthemore, you cannot fully level the playing field; even though most countries today offer free education, and cheap housing, every society has its share of poverty. Logical analysis next leads one to ask, what can be done with such people? In the final analysis, the best solution is to offer them some kind of work. What kind of work you offer them is irrelevent. What you can be sure of is that they will most likely be doing low-wage jobs which the higher classes in society have no incentive to do. Now you can promise their children a better future, but as I said in the last post, this will not eradicate poverty. That is why there are 30,000 homeless people in the US today. Now, I challenge you to tell me what the difference is between a homeless Westerner sleeping under a bridge, eating from a soup kitchen, and using the latrine facilities of public places, and a shudra in Manu's day? Do you think the Western fellow feels better because the law says he can do whatever kind of work he chooses? Do you think he feels better because the law does not explicitly label him "shudra"? The law does not require a single employer to hire him! These are the homeless; I did not mention those who live in housing projects, the thousands of children in orphanages, those living in trailer parks, etc. Now some here are arguing that poverty is due to discrimination. But I disagree. As I said before, poverty is the result of having a class-based (or caste-based) society. There is no point in blaming Manu for this; he simply offered a reasonable solution. Do not forget, while India had varna, the rest of the world had slavery!

Mr.SRS,
You are just talking about economic consequences of varna/slavery.
What about destroying the human dignity, of not having self-worth?,of being told your are not good enough as other human beings. Like stranger said these are the things you people cant even imagine because you are so far on the other side of divide.

In the west , even the lavatory cleaner has self respect,even the boss has to call him "mister"It is the dignity of humanbeings that is what I,m talking about.

[anticrap]

If some people are so convinced by varna system,then why don't we reverse the varnas

See you need to realize that you are responding to someone who has never born and brought up in a situation where, a beautiful young girl can be an easy prey to a "higher class" (ironically "untouchability" does not protect her that is the pity here) as she happened to born as a harijan. She does not have any right. She can be raped by animals and the animals can get away with it since she is a harijan.

We cant use filter in the HUB to isolate people those who hardly know about the cruelty in the caste system! But you can EASILY SEE the IGNORANCE from their posts - if you are intelligent enough to see the insensible argument 8-)

When I used to go my village, I saw the dalit women were treated like possessions of the higher
caste hindus and I was told , if these people visit
the dalit homes at night, husbands would have to wait outside.

If there is God, I dont think , he would 've watched it silently, It is probably the best reason to doubt the existence of God.

[rocketboy]

so sad :cry: :cry:

and adding more to this.

The notorious "two-glass" system still goes on in many parts of rajasthan. remember having read that somewhere in the hindu paper.

[Fire111999]

[tscii:301e4b34ec]Well the people living in the depilated part of the house in other capitalist countries have atleast a 20% chance of living in the other part may be in a couple of generations or sometimes even in their own generation. There are many self made millionaires who started their lives in slums. Can you qoute one such example pre British in India.
In India there is 0% chance of the people living in the depilated part of the house crossing over for 3000 – 4000 years.
The other civilizations had a system were the slaves could be freed, but no such luck for their Indian counterparts.
The debate is not if the varna system is good/bad. May be it was started with the best of intentions but what most of us are against are against the caste system as it is practiced now.[/tscii:301e4b34ec]

agree that there is a problem when even when one's no longer 'sweeping the streets', one is still 'seen' 'with a broom'

[Fire111999]

she does believe that there is an Indian tradition with many facets to it. She says "freedom and equality can indeed find their roots in tradition if that tradition is critically unerstood".This requires a process of reinterpretation, according to her.

totally agree. it's only due to misinterpretation that many of the values have been lost.

[Fire111999]

Cultures stagnate when they resist all forms of foreign influence; they prosper when they engage critically with foreign cultures.
Yes no doubt cross-cultures r necessary for prolonged survival of ne nation in the world......I didnt say a society shud totally stand aloof.......wat I ment was, said society must hav the discrimination as to wat is worth taking influence in from the foriegn culture & wat is not. And yes, its true tat in the West ther is a growing (albeit slowly) interest in Eastern (esp. Indian) philosophies for absorbing into daily life as they hav realised how beneficial it wud be for an otherwise empty lifestyle......but how far is India taking the best from the West (or evn our own culture) today?

i think that there is a lot of excellent stuff in our culture that india can revive. but it seems that many indians are more interested in taking the worst out of western cultures.

[Fire111999]

As for rights to women, Hinduism has indeed come a long way, though there is still much distance to travel.
And I suppose other religions of the world hav already completed their distances in this regard?? How many of them hav always been better-off than us?
The way I see it, Hinduism had originally instituted far better rights/dignity for women as opposed to the too conservative Middle East & the once fanatically orthodox but later too "free" West!
Wat was necessary was to abolish certain evil practices, tat too had made thier way into Hinduism at a later stage, to hav the true image of women realised to society. Many of us successive generations who were born when these practices wer still existant/just abolished hav grown up w/ the -ve impression tat Hinduism was a religion/culture oppressive to women.....wich was even unjustly advocated by Periyar's revolution!

totally agree

[rocketboy]

-edited-

[dsath]

I am sure there are thousands who share your views and experiences including me.

[Lambretta]

[tscii]
Coming to think of it all reformers who attempted to eradicate the no so good elements in Hinduism have not been successful within the framework of the religion.
Starting from the likes of Buddha to recent ones like RR Mohan Roy all had to branch away from Hinduism in order to get their message across.
Wat abt Swami Vivekananda?
What are the elements that he reformed please?
U seem to've misunderstood, I didnt say he totally reformed the society! For tat matter, even Sati didnt cease to exist 100% after RRMRoy abolished it.....and no need to mention caste system!
I mentioned Vivekananda in answer to ur above statement tat all reformers who attempted to eradicate the wrong elements of Hinduism had to branch away from Hinduism..but Swami Vivekananda didnt do tat to get his mesage across......rather he promoted Hinduism and brought it up even in the eyes of the West from its then low status.

[dsath]

[tscii]
Coming to think of it all reformers who attempted to eradicate the no so good elements in Hinduism have not been successful within the framework of the religion.
Starting from the likes of Buddha to recent ones like RR Mohan Roy all had to branch away from Hinduism in order to get their message across.
Wat abt Swami Vivekananda?
What are the elements that he reformed please?
rather he promoted Hinduism and brought it up even in the eyes of the West from its then low status.
Swami Vivekananda was a phiolosopher and in your own words promoted Hinduism and he did not attempt to reform the system as was attempted by EVR or RR Mohan Roy.

I still am of the opinion that, as long of Hinduism exists, the caste system will stay. EVR did not clean up the system (no one can), no matter how many Buddhas or Ramanujas come and go, the caste system will stay till our civilization dies.

[Fire111999]

the way i see it, the caste system developed from class segregation. i don't see how you can blame hinduism if pple later developed it into divisions that have a religious aspect to them. the basic dividing factor was the type of job, not really religion.

[Lambretta]

Swami Vivekananda was a phiolosopher and in your own words promoted Hinduism and he did not attempt to reform the system as was attempted by EVR or RR Mohan Roy.
A misunderstanding again dsath! Jus bcos he didnt get aggressive & perpetuate a revolution like EVR, or bcos u may happen to like EVR's way of doing things, how cud u say tat SV did not attempt to reform the system?!
For eg. if u've read the books on his teachings (philosphy tho they may be), u cant even think of comparing EVR's sayings on freedom/rights of women (wich was more like propogating the 'eye' for an eye' theory- if men can go bad, let women too) w/ tat of SV's!

[anticrap]

why only dalits. let me tell you if it had not not been for the likes of periyar and kamarajar i would be simply sitting in my courtyard waiting for the rains. it would have never crossed my mind to go to school , university. why are we trying to hide the fact that education was restricted to only a few sects of people before these people (periyar , kamarajar) garnered the spotlight. huh?

Well said rocketboy :clap:

[anticrap]

As you know, blues music is mostly about black people's sufferings.This famous blues songs speaks as much about dalit conditions also;

Born Under A Bad Sign

From his album "New Orleans Heat", on Charly R&B CD, originally a Tomato recording from 1978. That album was produced and arranged by Allen Toussaint, and members of the Meters were among the musicians. This song was written by Booker T. Jones and William Bell.

One, two
Born under a bad sign
I been down since I begin to crawl
If it wasn't for bad luck, I wouldn't have no luck at all

Hard luck and trouble
Is my only friend
I been on my own
Ever since I was ten

Born under a bad sign
I been down since I begin to crawl
If it wasn't for bad luck, I wouldn't have no luck at all

I can't read
Haven't learned how to write
My whole life has been
One big fight

Born under a bad sign
I been down since I begin to crawl
If it wasn't for bad luck, I wouldn't have no luck at all

I ain't lyin' ... (solo)

If it wasn't for bad luck I wouldn't have no kinda luck
If it wasn't for real bad luck, I wouldn't have no luck at all

Wine and women
is all I crave
A big legged woman is gonna carry me
to my grave

Born under a bad sign
I been down since I begin to crawl
If it wasn't for bad luck, I wouldn't have no luck at all

Yeah my bad luck boy
Been havin' bad luck all of my days, yes




http://www.geocities.com/BourbonStreet/delta/2541/blaking.htm#Born

[Lambretta]

Hmm......sounds like it spoke of the US Blacks' conditions once, too.....

[dsath]

Swami Vivekananda was a phiolosopher and in your own words promoted Hinduism and he did not attempt to reform the system as was attempted by EVR or RR Mohan Roy.
A misunderstanding again dsath! Jus bcos he didnt get aggressive & perpetuate a revolution like EVR, or bcos u may happen to like EVR's way of doing things, how cud u say tat SV did not attempt to reform the system?!
For eg. if u've read the books on his teachings (philosphy tho they may be), u cant even think of comparing EVR's sayings on freedom/rights of women (wich was more like propogating the 'eye' for an eye' theory- if men can go bad, let women too) w/ tat of SV's!
Excatly SV belongs to a different genre and we can't compare SV with EVR. They are 2 different pepole with different goals. I am not denying SV's greatness and what he did to India and Hinduism.
In reference to caste system how many people mobilised the masses against the caste system , most created ripples and some a few waves. And EVR is one such person who happened to create a few waves.

[Lambretta]

Excatly SV belongs to a different genre and we can't compare SV with EVR. They are 2 different pepole with different goals. I am not denying SV's greatness and what he did to India and Hinduism. In reference to caste system how many people mobilised the masses against the caste system , most created ripples and some a few waves. And EVR is one such person who happened to create a few waves.
Albeit directed the waves to lash against just one shore! :)

[dsath]

the way i see it, the caste system developed from class segregation. i don't see how you can blame hinduism if pple later developed it into divisions that have a religious aspect to them. the basic dividing factor was the type of job, not really religion.
May be it started off with the best of intentions, but it has found root and flourished within the framework of Hinduism and its not my intention to blame Hinduism. There are some very good aspects of Hinduism and that's the reason why i am following it and also thats excatly the reason why i feel so passionate about eradication of the caste system as well.
I come from a village and have been a witness to many incidents similar to Rocket boy's. Even today my grandma wouldn't send food in her utensil's to her maids home. The maid has to bring her own. Its sad to be a silent witness to such incidents. :cry:

[dsath]

Excatly SV belongs to a different genre and we can't compare SV with EVR. They are 2 different pepole with different goals. I am not denying SV's greatness and what he did to India and Hinduism. In reference to caste system how many people mobilised the masses against the caste system , most created ripples and some a few waves. And EVR is one such person who happened to create a few waves.
Albeit directed the waves to lash against just one shore! :)

May i add the only shore.

[stranger]

And btw, among TN CMs, even if none of them so far belonged to EVR's caste, werent ther ne of them who got to be CM on caste basis (esp. Karunanidhi) or bcos they came from film background (thus winning mass support)?

well, it was emphasized by Sundram that EVR nayakkar (that is kamma naidu in andhra and a forward community there).

The major dispute between anna &karunaanidhi and EVR was, EVR did not want to contest in elections.

That led to the formation of DMK from DK!


In today's scenario, if Rajaji tried to become the CM wat wud be the chances of him succeeding against say, Karunanidhi?

If JJ could beat him, I dont see why cant Rajaji?


And speaking of progress/democracy tat u mention, didnt Karunanidhi implement an increase in existing caste-reservations in TN during his tenures as CM, favouring his own caste ?

Who told you that???

Do you really know his caste??? (Just say YES or NO)

There is no such accusations so far. You are the FIRST ONE to come up with one!

I dont think you have understood anything about TN politics or caste system in TN.


So how cud this be regarded as democratic?

it is better than letting kamma and reddy rule for ever!

I dont think a harijan or a muslim from Andhra is going to agree with you that reddy and kammaa are UNBIASED.


Or if u still wish to compare w/ AP, altho we were ruled by Kamma/Reddys (except PV Narsimha Rao), they didnt favour their own castes thru reservations, even tho they were dominant among FCs.

is that why they have two different organization ATA (American Telugu association) and TANA (Telugu association of north america) dominated by kamma and redddy EVEN in the US????

They could not have unity even in a nation where caste is immaterial, you are telling me that they are unbiased!!!!

You must be joking!

[Fire111999]

this conversation is getting very politically orientated and i know nothing abt politics, indian or otherwise!

[nilavupriyan]

INTERESTING!

periyar's philosophy is proclaimed to be the unquestionable,supreme philosophy by all the parties which came to rule by using "Dravidian muzhakam"...

they have the dravaidian cover on them.... my doubt is ....whether hatred of the GOD worship is the sign of dravidian culture?because the main attempt of D.K is atheism..is atheism is a symbol of dravidian culture?...

or did the hatred of god result in the eradication of "untouchability"?... if so ...is it the only way to eradicate untouchability?.. imho...it doesnt cause the uplift of the downtrodden....the quotas given by govt uplifted them..... and the rights given to them by the govt uplifted them!(thanks to periyar)

another thing...did these periyar followers follow his philosophies.... or do they have any so called "kolkais"

can "dravidian iyakkam" can be considerd as one of the revolutions in tamil culture?

im a believer of GOD!

[Lambretta]

or did the hatred of god result in the eradication of "untouchability"?... if so ...is it the only way to eradicate untouchability?.. imho...it doesnt cause the uplift of the downtrodden....the quotas given by govt uplifted them..... and the rights given to them by the govt uplifted them!(thanks to periyar)
Precisely my point! Wich is wat um, sum members here r yet to realise.....!


another thing...did these periyar followers follow his philosophies....
Cant be...else y wer they stirred up in the kushboo controversy?? (wen their leader had said even worse things against chastity of women in Hinduism!)

[indian224080]

And btw, among TN CMs, even if none of them so far belonged to EVR's caste, werent ther ne of them who got to be CM on caste basis (esp. Karunanidhi) or bcos they came from film background (thus winning mass support)?

well, it was emphasized by Sundram that EVR nayakkar (that is kamma naidu in andhra and a forward community there).

The major dispute between anna &karunaanidhi and EVR was, EVR did not want to contest in elections.

That led to the formation of DMK from DK!


In today's scenario, if Rajaji tried to become the CM wat wud be the chances of him succeeding against say, Karunanidhi?

If JJ could beat him, I dont see why cant Rajaji?


And speaking of progress/democracy tat u mention, didnt Karunanidhi implement an increase in existing caste-reservations in TN during his tenures as CM, favouring his own caste ?

Who told you that???

Do you really know his caste??? (Just say YES or NO)

There is no such accusations so far. You are the FIRST ONE to come up with one!

I dont think you have understood anything about TN politics or caste system in TN.


So how cud this be regarded as democratic?

it is better than letting kamma and reddy rule for ever!

I dont think a harijan or a muslim from Andhra is going to agree with you that reddy and kammaa are UNBIASED.


Or if u still wish to compare w/ AP, altho we were ruled by Kamma/Reddys (except PV Narsimha Rao), they didnt favour their own castes thru reservations, even tho they were dominant among FCs.

is that why they have two different organization ATA (American Telugu association) and TANA (Telugu association of north america) dominated by kamma and redddy EVEN in the US????

They could not have unity even in a nation where caste is immaterial, you are telling me that they are unbiased!!!!

You must be joking!
Hell when it comes to Telugus no one can undermine or Question thier Unity. I dont think a Kamma or a Reddy differ with each other on any crucial aspect. Telugus are the most united Indians next to Gularathis in United States and Elsewhere.
There is no problem having ATA or TANA, the main problem is the strength of the organization and the unity of them. Is their anything for Tamil? How many are primary members in any Tamil Association? I know one Tamil Association and when they keep their cultural events someone starts a topic on Tamil Country. No one even listens to that conversation. This happened in the State where i live. No matter Periyar or Anyone Tamils have always been disunited separated and segregated by Caste then, Now and Ever.

[Lambretta]

May i add the only shore.
:shock: Wat makes u think so??
Landlords who wer feudalistic had exploited brahmins (the targeted caste in EVR's agenda) as well as the 'lower' castes, using the name of their caste.....y didnt EVR target them as well, if he wanted justice for the downtrodden?
Might I say 'cos he knew tat the one caste he was targeting wasnt capable of hitting back.

[stranger]

No matter Periyar or Anyone Tamils have always been disunited separated and segregated by Caste then, Now and Ever.

FYKI: Visit "paattukku paattu section" in tfm section!

We, Tamils, get along very well with each other despite our opinion difference in several other threads.

Why dont you join us, which can help you learn some manners?

[nilavupriyan]

or did the hatred of god result in the eradication of "untouchability"?... if so ...is it the only way to eradicate untouchability?.. imho...it doesnt cause the uplift of the downtrodden....the quotas given by govt uplifted them..... and the rights given to them by the govt uplifted them!(thanks to periyar)
Precisely my point! Wich is wat um, sum members here r yet to realise.....!


another thing...did these periyar followers follow his philosophies....
Cant be...else y wer they stirred up in the kushboo controversy?? (wen their leader had said even worse things against chastity of women in Hinduism!)

i believe Dr.Ambedkar uplifted the downtrodded in the right way and so effectively than the political personlaities of tamilnadu!

it is said that the quotas given by the govt must be only for few years is the wish of ambedkar!

is it?...

[kannannn]

Sorry if I sounded offensive, but from sum of the comments here, it sounded as if sum r bent upon criticising a certain religion & citing it responsible for the degradation of women (wich, as I said, is wat Periyar had wrongly propogated among ppl.!) & I'd noticed it has grown too common for the newer gens. to start degrading our own culture by comparing it w/ the 'liberal' West etc. w/out realising tat they've had their dark days too.
Well, if it does seem that some people are hell bent on criticizing a particular religion, it is because the thread pertains to that religion. Open a thread on another religion, and I would be there too to criticize that religion. I can understand your concerns for our culture and your lament that the newer generation is degrading our own culture. But what worries me more is the lack of acknowledgement of the evils in our culture and any steps to counter it. Of course, it doesn't matter to you because you are untouched by these evils.

Well, if it makes things better, the latter is already happening now isnt it, tks to the reservation system?

Ouch! it hurts doesn't it? Now multiply this pain by thousand times and imagine every member of the oppressed class going through this pain over 2500 years. Atleast, you have 'forumhub' to vent your views. They weren't even allowed to as much as whisper about their rights.


"Omvedt rightly points out that the Vedas have been seen as the fundamental texts of Indian culture and the essence of Indian culture is seen as residing in the Aryan heritage. Even well-meaning secularists use language that emerges from a Hindu ethos, according to her. Omvedt elaborates on how this attitude and language have permeated all the movements for change including the women's movement. Important regional identity movements like the Self-Respect Movement of Periyar failed to carry the Dalits along with them. Omvedt suggests that the legacies of Jyotiba Phule and Abedkar and the voices of Tarabai Shinde and Pandita Ramabai have to be taken into consideration if we are serious about building a secular, democratic state. And this can be done only if we first reject everything that has been constructed in the name of Hinduism.

I used to admire Omvedt for what she has done in terms of critical analysis of the Indian caste system and her progressionist views on the Indian society. But I no longer take her comments seriously, for she doesn't practice what she preaches.

[Lambretta]

If JJ could beat him, I dont see why cant Rajaji?
JJ had a strong background due to her associations w/ films & MGR (whose party she belongs to & he had equal mass appeal).....wich is y she cud rise despite her fall in status after KN became the CM in 1996....


Who told you that???

Do you really know his caste??? (Just say YES or NO)
I donno the name of his caste but doesnt he belong to one of the 'lower' ones? Else y wud one increase resevations for BCs/SCs, if he wer an FC, in wich case ppl. of his caste too wud be at a disadvantage?


They could not have unity even in a nation where caste is immaterial, you are telling me that they are unbiased!!!!
You must be joking!
Comparing w/ the situation in TN, this staement is like living in a glass house & throwing stones at ur neighbours! :)

[indian224080]

No matter Periyar or Anyone Tamils have always been disunited separated and segregated by Caste then, Now and Ever.

FYKI: Visit "paattukku paattu section" in tfm section!

We, Tamils, get along very well with each other despite our opinion difference in several other threads.

Why dont you join us, which can help you learn some manners?
I am not talking of unity in pattukku pattu Stranger. Talk abt real unity.
I dont understand why should we be united only in the film world?!??

[nilavupriyan]

"if jj could beat him..why cant rajni?"

JJ became the leader of the big political party...she dint develop a party!

even M.G.R did develop th admk from the roots of D.M.K!

[indian224080]

Yup it was told that Reservations would exist for 5 years only!!!! Well India is proud to have reservations existing for 59 Years and counting!!
Great going . Recent Flash news was 49.5% Reservation in IITs and IIM. Thanks to Evergreen Heroes....India Vision 2020 at its extreme....

[stranger]

I am not talking of unity in pattukku pattu Stranger. Talk abt real unity.

I dont think you UNDERSTAND anything properly! :(

[nilavupriyan]

No matter Periyar or Anyone Tamils have always been disunited separated and segregated by Caste then, Now and Ever.

FYKI: Visit "paattukku paattu section" in tfm section!

We, Tamils, get along very well with each other despite our opinion difference in several other threads.

Why dont you join us, which can help you learn some manners?
I am not talking of unity in pattukku pattu Stranger. Talk abt real unity.
I dont understand why should we be united only in the film world?!??

STRANGER...what abt the unity in "cauvery issue"?

[kannannn]

Who told you that???

Do you really know his caste??? (Just say YES or NO)
I donno the name of his caste but doesnt he belong to one of the 'lower' ones? Else y wud one increase resevations for BCs/SCs, if he wer an FC, in wich case ppl. of his caste too wud be at a disadvantage?

Lambretta, please understand politics. It was JJ who proposed 69% reservation. Did it have anything to do with her caste?

[nilavupriyan]

lamby...thats for getting votes...not for his caste people...for his family and katchi instead!

[Lambretta]

Ouch! it hurts doesn't it? Now multiply this pain by thousand times and imagine every member of the oppressed class going through this pain over 2500 years. Atleast, you have 'forumhub' to vent your views. They weren't even allowed to as much as whisper about their rights.
Understandable tho ur pain must be, does it mean tat this 'eye for an eye' philosophy in the name of reservation go on forever? In such a scenario how wud equality be attained & casteism be won over?
OK 50 odd yrs later, how far has it improved the situation?
Rather the fact tat it has gone uncheked (w.out ne fixed time limit to end), and even increased at times by political power, has given encouragement to corruption within educational & employment (govt. based atleast) sectors.....this loophole has made it very easy for ppl. to enter into edu./emp. oppurtunities using ther right to reservation as a basis, w/ skills/qualifications being sidelined in the process.

[kannannn]

Lambretta, I have been affected as much as you by reservation. But you must understand that it takes time to undo the attrocities committed over thousands of years. Now, the politics of reservation is a seperate topic that must not be and cannot be discussed here. I agree that the present reservation system does not reach most of the downtrodden, but I know many examples where reservation has helped the oppressed class. Let us not deviate from the topic.

[nilavupriyan]

kannann ..reservations could be given...but do they help the real suppressed people!

in sc/st there are many doctors,engineers and ias offiecers...their children get the reservations!

they must give these quotas to the economically suppressed people among downtrodden!

[kannannn]

I am not talking of unity in pattukku pattu Stranger. Talk abt real unity.

I dont think you UNDERSTAND anything properly! :(
stranger, the whole discussion is going out of hand and many aren't posting anything related to the topic :( . Lambretta and Indian! it is common to hear people of every community lament that there is no unity among themselves. Visit telugu discussion forums to know what they think. I think we should not dwell on it.

[indian224080]

Lambretta, I have been affected as much as you by reservation. But you must understand that it takes time to undo the attrocities committed over thousands of years. Now, the politics of reservation is a seperate topic that must not be and cannot be discussed here. I agree that the present reservation system does not reach most of the downtrodden, but I know many examples where reservation has helped the oppressed class. Let us not deviate from the topic.

I dont think Discussing Reservation is out of topic 'coz Just like Periyar and Oppression of lower caste are related so as Periyar and Oppression of Upper castes are related.
Reservation has never reached the downtrodden barring a few exceptions. Its only the elite rich and lazy people among the lower caste who have utilized reservation to a major extent.

[kannannn]

kannann ..reservations could be given...but do they help the real suppressed people!

in sc/st there are many doctors,engineers and ias offiecers...their children get the reservations!

they must give these quotas to the economically suppressed people among downtrodden!
Nilavu, there was a proposal a few years ago that the 'creamy layer' among the 'lower castes' should not benifit from reservation. That was shot down. But, the discussion now is whether upliftment, in terms of social equality is possible, and if yes, is there an example where it has been achieved from within hinduism. Again I request everyone to stick to the topic. Indian, we can open a seperate thread on the 'politics of reservation' if needed. Because, the original spirit in which reservation was introduced, has been twisted and manipulated by successive governments.

[nilavupriyan]

kannann ...the social equality in city depends upon economy....dont know abt villages!

[kannannn]

Nilavu, yes, I agree. Economic power sure helps in attaining certain respect in society. But, will the varna system ever change? Will a millionaire 'lower caste' person ever be allowed to wear the sacred thread and chant mantras in Tirupati? That's my question. And there are certain groups that have remained economically powerful throughout the ages. But the varna system is so entrenched in our way of life, that they themselves consider members of other groups to be superior to them. Will that change?

[Fire111999]

ok, i can't follow properly. and it's mainly cos of all the talk abt reservations, which i have no idea what they are abt. sorry to bring up this again since lots of pple think that it is not relevant to the topic here, but i would like to have an explanation of how reservations work. thanks.

[nilavupriyan]

KANNANN...U R RIGHT!

Varnasharama dharma is still there among people!

[indian224080]

Not only with a lower caste wearing a Sacred thread.,

Varna system will perish when a Brahmin gets selected in DRDO based on Merit!!!!!!!
Varna System will perish when a XII standard Upper caste student who gets 295 in TNPCEE gets admitted in Anna University.
Varna System will perish when Dravidian ethos of claiming certain gods as Aryan and certain gods as Dravidians perish.
Varna system will perish when no community gets singled out for slaughter.

[stranger]

"if jj could beat him..why cant rajni?"

JJ became the leader of the big political party...she dint develop a party!

even M.G.R did develop th admk from the roots of D.M.K!

Nilavu:

I said Rajaji and responding to a question brought up Lamby!

I hate manipulation- the one you have done now! :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

i seriously think you should go to film section and spend your time there if you wish to talk something different! :twisted:

[Fire111999]

Not only with a lower caste wearing a Sacred thread.,

Varna system will perish when a Brahmin gets selected in DRDO based on Merit!!!!!!!
Varna System will perish when a XII standard Upper caste student who gets 295 in TNPCEE gets admitted in Anna University.
Varna System will perish when Dravidian ethos of claiming certain gods as Aryan and certain gods as Dravidians perish.
Varna system will perish when no community gets singled out for slaughter.

explain pls. what's DRDO?

and why wouldn't a student who gets 295 in that exam get admission in Anna uni?

[indian224080]

explain pls. what's DRDO?
and why wouldn't a student who gets 295 in that exam get admission in Anna uni?

Fire,
DRDO->Defense Research Development Organization.
My Friend's Friends applied for DRDO One is upper caste and another is SC. After the interview they told him how they performed. His UC Friend performed very nicely and LC Friend did somewhat okay. Ultimately LC Friend got selected. It was very evident as UC Friend had scored more on aptitude and he did more nicely in Interview. Eventually the OC Tag of him got him beheaded.

TNPCEE is TamilNadu Professional Course Entrance Examination. Its a weird examination where in u have to mug up all answers and reproduce it there. I dont want to get into that but an OC who gets 295/300 in Anna Univ is denied an admission to Anna Univ but a LC Guy who scores 248 gets an admit.

This is how merit is undermined...

[Fire111999]

explain pls. what's DRDO?
and why wouldn't a student who gets 295 in that exam get admission in Anna uni?

Fire,
DRDO->Defense Research Development Organization.
My Friend's Friends applied for DRDO One is upper caste and another is SC. After the interview they told him how they performed. His UC Friend performed very nicely and LC Friend did somewhat okay. Ultimately LC Friend got selected. It was very evident as UC Friend had scored more on aptitude and he did more nicely in Interview. Eventually the OC Tag of him got him beheaded.

TNPCEE is TamilNadu Professional Course Entrance Examination. Its a weird examination where in u have to mug up all answers and reproduce it there. I dont want to get into that but an OC who gets 295/300 in Anna Univ is denied an admission to Anna Univ but a LC Guy who scores 248 gets an admit.

This is how merit is undermined...

yikes! that's unfair! by the way OC tag = ? i understand that it's representing his higher caste status

[indian224080]

yikes! that's unfair! by the way OC tag = ? i understand that it's representing his higher caste status
OC Unofficially means Other Castes
Officially its meant to be Open Competition.

[Fire111999]

oh, i c. thanks. so SC = ?

[dsath]

Consider this scenario, a lion is taken captive and brought to a zoo. Now the lion lives and breeds in a zoo and its cubs also grow up in captivity. This continues for lets say 1500 generations. One fine morning some one decides that the place for Lion is in the forest and takes them back to the forest. How do you expect the captive lion which has never seen a hunt before to hunt for food and thrive with other lions in the forest?
And the problem here is not all lions are taken out of zoo and even a few lucky captive lions which have learnt hunting are always stigmatized with the captivity tag.

[Fire111999]

Consider this scenario, a lion is taken captive and brought to a zoo. Now the lion lives and breeds in a zoo and its cubs also grow up in captivity. This continues for lets say 1500 generations. One fine morning some one decides that the place for Lion is in the forest and takes them back to the forest. How do you expect the captive lion which has never seen a hunt before to hunt for food and thrive with other lions in the forest?
And the problem here is not all lions are taken out of zoo and even a few lucky captive lions which have learnt hunting are always stigmatized with the captivity tag.

i can't see the parallel link for half your analogies. explain.

[mahadevan]

Hey nobody denies that apparent merit is undermided here(but not the real one), afterall by getting 300/300 at plus 2 what one proves ? that he or she is not a moron, thats all, if that person has a family history of proper education it is more mudane compared to a guy from an illiterate family who scores 200/300, the latter is amazing proof of human intelligence, inspite of inhuman(the most cruel in the history of mankind) subjucation for 1000's of years he could still flourish. In this process some people who are the progenies of the subjucators may feel discriminated, hey but this is nothing compared to what their forefathers did. There is still a OC class where they can still compete and nobody tells that if a twice born enters the campus of IIT cut his feet and tongue, he happy for that.

[Fire111999]

Hey nobody denies that apparent merit is undermided here(but not the real one), afterall by getting 300/300 at plus 2 what one proves ? that he or she is not a moron, thats all, if that person has a family history of proper education it is more mudane compared to a guy from an illiterate family who scores 200/300, the latter is amazing proof of human intelligence, inspite of inhuman(the most cruel in the history of mankind) subjucation for 1000's of years he could still flourish. In this process some people who are the progenies of the subjucators may feel discriminated, hey but this is nothing compared to what their forefathers did. There is still a OC class where they can still compete and nobody tells that if a twice born enters the campus of IIT cut his feet and tongue, he happy for that.

does SC always mean that that person is from an illiterate family? or is that no longer the case?

and for your last sentence, i don't understand at all!

[indian224080]

Hey nobody denies that apparent merit is undermided here(but not the real one), afterall by getting 300/300 at plus 2 what one proves ? that he or she is not a moron, thats all, if that person has a family history of proper education it is more mudane compared to a guy from an illiterate family who scores 200/300, the latter is amazing proof of human intelligence, inspite of inhuman(the most cruel in the history of mankind) subjucation for 1000's of years he could still flourish. In this process some people who are the progenies of the subjucators may feel discriminated, hey but this is nothing compared to what their forefathers did. There is still a OC class where they can still compete and nobody tells that if a twice born enters the campus of IIT cut his feet and tongue, he happy for that..

In that case whats the need for an Exam...wasting tax payers money. They can throw open the doors to every guy with ur so called "Amazing human intelligence".


"Flash News: Just now Mulayam Singh Yadav said Copying in Exams is
not a Crime at all. Ready to implement OBC Reservations.. Amazing Inteliigence...."

[kannannn]

Fire.., I suggest you read newspapers and visit websites to learn more about reservation and caste system. Maybe you should visit the interior of tamilnadu to get the real picture. Better still, visit villages where the 'lower castes' still remove human faeces to earn and survive.

Indian, what do you suggest we can do to eradicate caste system, uplift the 'lower castes' that have been oppressed for thousands of years and at the same time remove reservation? But when you think about it, just remember about the human scavengers. The pain we experience from reservation is nothing compared to this.

[Fire111999]

Fire.., I suggest you read newspapers and visit websites to learn more about reservation and caste system. Maybe you should visit the interior of tamilnadu to get the real picture. Better still, visit villages where the 'lower castes' still remove human faeces to earn and survive.

Indian, what do you suggest we can do to eradicate caste system, uplift the 'lower castes' that have been oppressed for thousands of years and at the same time remove reservation? But when you think about it, just remember about the human scavengers. The pain we experience from reservation is nothing compared to this.

yeah, i was thinking the same thing. there is too much i don't know. thanks anyway!

[nilavupriyan]

"if jj could beat him..why cant rajni?"

JJ became the leader of the big political party...she dint develop a party!

even M.G.R did develop th admk from the roots of D.M.K!

Nilavu:

I said Rajaji and responding to a question brought up Lamby!

I hate manipulation- the one you have done now! :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

i seriously think you should go to film section and spend your time there if you wish to talk something different! :twisted:

:lol: :lol: i misread it stranger!...

ok ...i guess u say why cany rajaji beat karunanithi?..is if it is ur question....

in 70's and 80's there was a "dravaidian factor" caused by periyar!...the youth ion 80's and 70's were greatly influenced by the speech of periyar,karunanithi etc...

rajaji dint fall under the shade of these persons...infact he was viewed as the saviour of brahmins.... how could he be elected... no way!

dont bring jeyalalitha here...she is driving M.G.R's car and there is no dravdian factor nowadays....the present day youth is very busy in getting visa!

btw..where did u learn to advice?... :lol:

[anticrap]

kannann ...the social equality in city depends upon economy....dont know abt villages!

Varna system is not just about economy. It is about self respect , about one guy feeling equal to another human being, basic human values, decencies.
I don't know how people feel if told they are allowed inside temples, how their soul gets destroyed.

There is wonderful film "videyan" by Adoor Gopalkrishnan, about a lower caste guy in a feudal village, which discusses all the different aspects of slavery , how mentally this guy is beholden to the upper caste guy . Only his death finally frees him

[dsath]

Consider this scenario, a lion is taken captive and brought to a zoo. Now the lion lives and breeds in a zoo and its cubs also grow up in captivity. This continues for lets say 1500 generations. One fine morning some one decides that the place for Lion is in the forest and takes them back to the forest. How do you expect the captive lion which has never seen a hunt before to hunt for food and thrive with other lions in the forest?
And the problem here is not all lions are taken out of zoo and even a few lucky captive lions which have learnt hunting are always stigmatized with the captivity tag.

i can't see the parallel link for half your analogies. explain.

Well if you understood the other half its sufficient enough to know what has been happening around for ages.

[stranger]

dont bring jeyalalitha here...she is driving M.G.R's car and there is no dravdian factor nowadays....

But the driver is smarter than the former owner of the car! :lol:


the present day youth is very busy in getting visa!

One way of helping your country is not being a burden I suppose! :lol:

[Fire111999]

the present day youth is very busy in getting visa!

actually this is not really true nowadays. in a recent talk i went to, this guy in a big post in tata steel, who was recently posted to the uk, said that his son refused to join his father in the uk cos he felt that india had more opportunities; his exact words were supposed to be: "the whole world is coming to india and you are asking me to come out!"

[mahadevan]

Indian wrote: "In that case whats the need for an Exam...wasting tax payers money. They can throw open the doors to every guy with ur so called "Amazing human intelligence"."

the whole thing is a process of elimination and not that of selection by doing a BE and MS all that a person is proving the world is that he/she is not a moron. We do not need few great poeple and a huge bunch of illiterates, a society with a large number of averages is far better than that. It is the reservation policy and privitization of education that started in the south(more so in TN) that has put India in the world map as a country deserving some respect. All those pre reservation so called geniuses just went west to boot-lick and perpetuate the perception that India is a land of snake charmers. Accept the reality states that went for reservation are the ones that are shinning in the new economy. Is it not amazing, Periyar is hugely responsible for Bush and other global dignitories lining up to visit India.

[nilavupriyan]

dont bring jeyalalitha here...she is driving M.G.R's car and there is no dravdian factor nowadays....

But the driver is smarter than the former owner of the car! :lol:


the present day youth is very busy in getting visa!

One way of helping your country is not being a burden I suppose! :lol:

of course! :lol:

[indian224080]

Indian wrote: "In that case whats the need for an Exam...wasting tax payers money. They can throw open the doors to every guy with ur so called "Amazing human intelligence"."

the whole thing is a process of elimination and not that of selection by doing a BE and MS all that a person is proving the world is that he/she is not a moron. We do not need few great poeple and a huge bunch of illiterates, a society with a large number of averages is far better than that. It is the reservation policy and privitization of education that started in the south(more so in TN) that has put India in the world map as a country deserving some respect. All those pre reservation so called geniuses just went west to boot-lick and perpetuate the perception that India is a land of snake charmers. Accept the reality states that went for reservation are the ones that are shinning in the new economy. Is it not amazing, Periyar is hugely responsible for Bush and other global dignitories lining up to visit India.

Funny to hear that. Because whatever India shines is because of Private sector. I dont think the fame of TN Government with bunch of people selected via Reservation have been able to cross the borders of Chennai even leave alone Indian borders.
All that India attained is because of Private sector...Creamy layer of Indian People who came and conquered that creamy layer be it OC/BC/SC or ST. Reservation is famous only for Some IAS officers who enter via their Quota and start swindling money. Reservation is the one that makes our country more poor economically and Morally.

[rajraj]

Interesting article:

http://www.hindu.com/2006/04/12/stories/2006041204861000.htm


Clearly, India is nowhere near the US in uplifting the disadvantaged and the underprivileged! :(

[Badri]

dont bring jeyalalitha here...she is driving M.G.R's car and there is no dravdian factor nowadays....

Please don't bring in too much of current politics into this discussion. That may lead to wrongful statements, defamation etc.

We really, really don't want to get into all of that.

[nilavupriyan]

ok :D

[nilavupriyan]

OK :D

[mahadevan]

IndianXXX"Reservation is famous only for Some IAS officers who enter via their Quota and start swindling money. "

Hey reservation is so innocuos why even talk about it ?
Look at the stats for development of different states and its reservation policy, if you know some statistics you cannot miss the correlation.

[bis_mala]

[tscii:42af25b0e7]
I dont think the fame of TN Government with bunch of people selected via Reservation have been able to cross the borders of Chennai even leave alone Indian borders.

When I revised my history books on India, I feel so funny.

You Indians seem to have come to an agreement with the Dalits at the time of Independence. According to that agreement, they are to get special privileges which come under the name of “Reservation” (Indian terminology for special privileges?)

Otherwise the Dalits might have claimed a slice of the subcontinent and India would have been further fragmented. The British would have given in to them.

So you overcame that hurdle by that agreement.

This agreement became part of Indian law, from what I understand.

You should have thought about all these things at the time you gave in!! Any use crying over it now?
[/tscii:42af25b0e7]

[SRS]

Consider this scenario, a lion is taken captive and brought to a zoo. Now the lion lives and breeds in a zoo and its cubs also grow up in captivity. This continues for lets say 1500 generations. One fine morning some one decides that the place for Lion is in the forest and takes them back to the forest. How do you expect the captive lion which has never seen a hunt before to hunt for food and thrive with other lions in the forest?
And the problem here is not all lions are taken out of zoo and even a few lucky captive lions which have learnt hunting are always stigmatized with the captivity tag.

Such a scenario has profound implications. You have to keep in mind that the "lions in the forest" are also controlling the government, and the economy (the top CEOs will be forest lions. Now, one can throw as many chappals as one feels inclined to, but the shift in the power structure must be gradual or there the consequences will be disastrous. Two good examples of what happens when the shift is too sudden can be seen in South Africa & Zimbabwe. In India of course, the hopelessly flawed "reservation" has caused a scientific brain drain; especially the Brahmin engineers find it more profitable to work in the West. This brain drain also leads to lack of innovation. There needs to be more efficient ways of integrating Dalits into positions of power. Reservation, in the long run, does not work.

[SRS]

Indian wrote: "In that case whats the need for an Exam...wasting tax payers money. They can throw open the doors to every guy with ur so called "Amazing human intelligence"."

the whole thing is a process of elimination and not that of selection by doing a BE and MS all that a person is proving the world is that he/she is not a moron. We do not need few great poeple and a huge bunch of illiterates, a society with a large number of averages is far better than that. It is the reservation policy and privitization of education that started in the south(more so in TN) that has put India in the world map as a country deserving some respect. All those pre reservation so called geniuses just went west to boot-lick and perpetuate the perception that India is a land of snake charmers. Accept the reality states that went for reservation are the ones that are shinning in the new economy. Is it not amazing, Periyar is hugely responsible for Bush and other global dignitories lining up to visit India.

I am not sure what you mean by respect - "Bush and other global dignitories" lining up to visit the call-centers? Does respect mean, the Indian rupee is so weak compared to the US dollar, that US companies are eager to outsource menial work to Indians, paying Indian workers 1/3 what they would pay a US worker? That is a hell of a "new" economy.

[SRS]

Mr.SRS,
You are just talking about economic consequences of varna/slavery.
What about destroying the human dignity, of not having self-worth?,of being told your are not good enough as other human beings. Like stranger said these are the things you people cant even imagine because you are so far on the other side of divide.

In the west , even the lavatory cleaner has self respect,even the boss has to call him "mister"It is the dignity of humanbeings that is what I,m talking about.

So you agree, varna works from an economic perspective? You mention human dignity. Well, that is a matter of opinion. Material gain does not necessarily equate to gains in self-worth. What is really at the root of the so-called "oppression."? If you gave the "oppressed" individual an opportunity to rebel, what will he do? He will kill his rich neighbor and steal that fellow's property. Then "liberated" will become the new class of "oppressor." So much for being "oppressed" to begin with. :lol:

[Lambretta]

Is it not amazing, Periyar is hugely responsible for Bush and other global dignitories lining up to visit India.
:shock: Huh?! How cud Periyar hav ne connection w/ this at all.....??! :lol2:


Does respect mean, the Indian rupee is so weak compared to the US dollar, that US companies are eager to outsource menial work to Indians, paying Indian workers 1/3 what they would pay a US worker?
Ironic yet true! Its high time we realised tat India isnt as yet on a high pedestal globally, as most of us tend to view.....! :(

[Sanguine Sridhar]

Periyar is the Almighty for the classes which are not called as Forward.Without EVR I dont think that Harijans or other backward community people would have emerged as the respectable citizens of India.

[srivatsan]

[tscii:740e0c6609]
I dont think the fame of TN Government with bunch of people selected via Reservation have been able to cross the borders of Chennai even leave alone Indian borders.

When I revised my history books on India, I feel so funny.

You Indians seem to have come to an agreement with the Dalits [/tscii:740e0c6609]
What do you mean by this "You Indians" Sir?

[bis_mala]

[tscii:2f583a6965]
I dont think the fame of TN Government ........................leave alone Indian borders.

When I revised my history books on India, I feel so funny.

You Indians seem .................................................. .......[/tscii:2f583a6965]
What do you mean by this "You Indians" Sir?

Well Shri Srivatsan sir!! Miss Sivamaala (me) does not come within the definition of "Indian" You feel funny...?

[SRS]

[tscii:066b1c8138]
I dont think the fame of TN Government with bunch of people selected via Reservation have been able to cross the borders of Chennai even leave alone Indian borders.

When I revised my history books on India, I feel so funny.

You Indians seem to have come to an agreement with the Dalits at the time of Independence. According to that agreement, they are to get special privileges which come under the name of “Reservation” (Indian terminology for special privileges?)

Otherwise the Dalits might have claimed a slice of the subcontinent and India would have been further fragmented. The British would have given in to them.

So you overcame that hurdle by that agreement.

This agreement became part of Indian law, from what I understand.

You should have thought about all these things at the time you gave in!! Any use crying over it now?
[/tscii:066b1c8138]

I disagree with your historical analysis. There was no party to specifically represent the Dalits. The escalating conflict was between Hindus and Muslims. This was Gandhi's fatal mistake- to trust Jinna. Jinna's interest was the welfare of Muslims alone, whereas Gandhi spoke for all Indians. Well, we know the outcome.

[Sandeep]

Reservation is/was the wrong solution for a real deep problem.

A failed attempt
After 60 years of Independence caste system still exists. Hatred between castes have only increased in the last 60 years.

Why Reservation failed was because

1) Economics was ignored.
- The first attempt should have been to remove economical backwardness. If the govt thought that limited govt jobs can do it then they where foolish.

2) How can you expect generations of Illitrates to suddenly become Doctors/Engineers.
- First the govt/society should have give primary education to one or two generations. It should have been a progressive steps.

3) Caste system was not abolished.
- Caste system is still not illegal. Law only protects from name calling. So one is allowed to say I am from so and so caste or that I am from upper caste.

4) No social reform
- Govt/Society did nothing to promote social measures like inter caste marraige, mixed community activities. All they did was "those guys are the bad ones and these guys are the poor victims". What better way to promote caste system.

What should be done.

1) Land reforms needs to implemented. The status of dalits and other backward castes are far better in states like Kerala and WB where land reforms have been done. Other steps to promote ecomonical growth of backward communities.

2) Promote inter caste co-ordinated activities - political, economic, cultural.

3) Abolish caste system completely. Particularly from political arena.

4) Complete and compulsory education.

None of these can be done 100% but even if 50% success is achieved in all there and other similar measures situation of bwd classes will be far better than what reservation can provide.

[Fire111999]

very good suggestions! now to take them up and carry them out!

[dsath]

First the govt/society should have give primary education to one or two generations. It should have been a progressive steps.

The problem is, when the children can make more money by working, why would the parents who don't know the real benefits of education care to send them to school. I think the MGR government made some positive steps by introducing a free meal system. Its a good incentive for children to come to school. Sadly the next step was ignored......to make the students actually benfit by the esucation system. The sad reality in most villages in Tamilnadu(don't know abt other states) is that childern go back from school and work during their free hours, while their much wealthier counterparts go to private tutions. So there is no chance that they can compete on a level playing ground until and unless they are exceptionally brilliant. If the govt introduces some incentives for the childern to perform in their school (something like the free school meal) then there is a hope somewhere down the tunnel.


3) Caste system was not abolished.
- Caste system is still not illegal. Law only protects from name calling. So one is allowed to say I am from so and so caste or that I am from upper caste.

Dowry is banned in India. We all know what is happening...don't we? It wouldn't make a big difference other than few incidents being sensationalised by the media.


4) No social reform
- Govt/Society did nothing to promote social measures like inter caste marraige, mixed community activities. All they did was "those guys are the bad ones and these guys are the poor victims". What better way to promote caste system.

Social reform is in place, its just not being implemented. It should be all around and people have to accept it. The most influtential factors such as movies (esp in the south with a profound idol workship culture) should also be part of this social reform. In Tamil movies during the 60s and 70s, how many movies were based on caste? Not that many.......but just look at the (Tamil) cinema world now, the caste based (disgustingly glorifying) movies are having their run now.




1) Land reforms needs to implemented. The status of dalits and other backward castes are far better in states like Kerala and WB where land reforms have been done. Other steps to promote ecomonical growth of backward communities.

The Kerala govt was not able to pay the state employess some time back because there was no money in the coffers?
Both the communist ruled states are not very financially sound....may be we can take a leaf out of their book, but cannot copy their entire model............

[Fire111999]

I agree that there must be more incentives for sending kids to school for the less wealthy families.

and I agree that is hard to totally eradicate the caste system. there is nothing to stop those from the upper castes from boasting abt it. they can only realise themselves and stop that.

and i agree that the media and the cine world, with all their influence must try to reform society, and not only in this context. there is so much that they can make the pple aware of. for eg. the priyasaki movie could have put across a clearer pic abt abortion (refer to the abortion thread in the misc section abt this) and you can just go on forever abt things like these.

[indian224080]

[tscii:fb2468e2f5]
I dont think the fame of TN Government with bunch of people selected via Reservation have been able to cross the borders of Chennai even leave alone Indian borders.

When I revised my history books on India, I feel so funny.

You Indians seem to have come to an agreement with the Dalits at the time of Independence. According to that agreement, they are to get special privileges which come under the name of “Reservation” (Indian terminology for special privileges?)

Otherwise the Dalits might have claimed a slice of the subcontinent and India would have been further fragmented. The British would have given in to them.

So you overcame that hurdle by that agreement.

This agreement became part of Indian law, from what I understand.

You should have thought about all these things at the time you gave in!! Any use crying over it now?
[/tscii:fb2468e2f5]
Please Go through the Indian History books (Not written by Dalitistan and their ilks). The above post clearly shows you are not knowledgable of the happenings in India from 1900-47. Reservations were introduced not because of slicing of the country but for the betterment of Indians.
Thats why it was introduced by BR Ambedkar for Just 5 years. And FYI Reservations were not permitted for OBC,BC,MBC etc.,

[Sandeep]

Dowry is banned in India. We all know what is happening...don't we? It wouldn't make a big difference other than few incidents being sensationalised by the media.
Well thats true for every law. Murder, Rape, Racist slur, everything is banned but still happens around the world. But that doesnt mean those should be legalized. Dont say that ban on dowry has not helped. It definitely has, ofcource a law alone cannot remove all evil



Social reform is in place, its just not being implemented.
Yes agreed, in paper not in practice.


....may be we can take a leaf out of their book, but cannot copy their entire model............
Take the good, leave the rest.

[Sandeep]

From an interview with Writer, Journalist Suresh Desai.

Q.: You said there is equality in Hindu religion. What about the caste system ?
A.: Equality is a socio-economic and socio-political concept and relates to mundane matters. It is not relevant to an individual's efforts to identify himself with the Absolute. This can be done at the spiritual level only. Caste system is purely a social phenomenon and is dependent on a particular system of production and distribution of the surplus. India was the first country to take to agricultural production which required a lot of manpower woven in an elaborate social net work. Today, in modern cities where industrial production is predominant, caste system is considerably weaker than in villages where the plough and the bullock have a sway.

Q.: Are you sure caste system is not based on religion?
A.: Yes. I am sure and emphatically so. Castes and classes were there in all countries depending on the means of production and the distribution of surplus. In Rome, there were patricians plebeians and slaves. Was Christianity responsible for the slave system? French Revolution occurred because of the conflict of castes or classes and so did Russian and Chinese Revolutions. For last more than hundred years Hindu social reformers have worked to demolish castes. They have not done this because there was sudden revelation in their mind, but their awareness of the changes in social, economic and political contexts which spurred them to work against the caste system which was losing its relevance. Would any of you show me a single reference where caste is associated with religion?

Q.: What about untouchability?
A.: Where is untouchability today? In our constitution? In our legal system? The social evolution takes place over many centuries. At different stages, in the process, there may have developed
social practices which appear ugly distortions today. The whole Hindu society is setting its face against such outmoded distortions.

Q.: Has Hindu religion given them equality? A.: I repeat that equality is a social and not a religious concept. At religious level, our galaxy of saints who realised God includes Mahars like Chokha Mela, a Chamaar like Rohidas and many other
saints from lowest depressed classes. Moksha is not withheld from anybody Gita says that a sage views in the same light a, Brahmin, a dog, a bull, an elephant and a pig. He treats them all as equals.

[a.ratchasi]

From an interview with Writer, Journalist Suresh Desai.

Sandeep, can I have the link?

Btw, stranger, there is no news on the 'book' as the person has not replied my email. I don't think I will ever receive one. You may be right, afterall.

[Sandeep]

From an interview with Writer, Journalist Suresh Desai.

Sandeep, can I have the link?

Btw, stranger, there is no news on the 'book' as the person has not replied my email. I don't think I will ever receive one. You may be right, afterall.

http://www.hvk.org/Publications/perception.html

[a.ratchasi]

Thanks, Sandeep.

[anticrap]

From an interview with Writer, Journalist Suresh Desai.

Sandeep, can I have the link?

Btw, stranger, there is no news on the 'book' as the person has not replied my email. I don't think I will ever receive one. You may be right, afterall.

http://www.hvk.org/Publications/perception.html

A great link from Hindu Vivek Kendra ,(a resource center of the promotion of Hindutva)! :lol:

[bis_mala]

Q.: What about untouchability?
A.: Where is untouchability today? In our constitution? ..........................................outmoded distortions.

Q.: Has Hindu religion given them equality? A.: I repeat that equality is a social a................................................. ..............................................y Gita says that a sage views in the same light a, Brahmin, a dog, a bull, an elephant and a pig. He treats them all as equals.

Do not get carried away by such paper explanation (well explained, anywahy). If you end up in love with an SC /Dalit and parents come to know, one or the other may be pulverised and pasted up!! See Tamil movie "Kaathal" for details....!!

On a serious note: These explamations have been there in one form or other for centuries. Caste remains unshaken. Caste conflicts occur everywhere, in many forms, from Pak, to India, to Nepal, to Bangladesh up to Lanka.

If a sage goes and says BrahmaNa = dog, he would be lucky to be alive....!! Don't you all agree?

[bis_mala]

Please Go through the Indian History books (Not written by Dalitistan and their ilks). The above post clearly shows you are not knowledgable of the happenings in India from 1900-47. Reservations were introduced not because of slicing of the country but for the betterment of Indians.
Thats why it was introduced by BR Ambedkar for Just 5 years. And FYI Reservations were not permitted for OBC,BC,MBC etc.,

So according to you, these privileges were voluntarily given to the Dalits etc "for the betterment of Indians". The Dalits did not demand for them. . Let me assume this to be the correct history.
If so, my question is still the same:
That being so, why cry over it now!! You Indians had deemed fit to give them those privileges....

[indian224080]

People are Crying due to two reasons.

1) Reservations were to be provided for Harijans,SC/ST for a period of 5 years
2) Reservations were to be provided only for Harijans,SC/ST.

Now we have Quotas for BC,MBC,OBC,NRI,Rural,Management,Minority etc., etc., etc.,

[indian224080]

If a sage goes and says BrahmaNa = dog, he would be lucky to be alive....!! Don't you all agree?


I dont think so. He will be get a Kingly Respect from Kashmir to Kanyakumari.

[bis_mala]

I dont think so. He will be get a Kingly Respect from Kashmir to Kanyakumari.

You are saying these things just for the fun of countering what I have said. Aren't u, Indianxxx? I read newspapers (Tamil) and other languages too. Your statement above is far removed from the ground realities in India. English newspapers in my country referred to Indian society as "caste- riddled" society.

If a sage can get royal honour for saying ......., that would mean that Indians have given up caste!! Then why do caste conflicts take place?
The Indian govt probably has data, statistics etc., unlike you. They are able to make informed decision.


Now we have Quotas for BC,MBC,OBC,NRI,Rural,Management,Minority etc., etc., etc.,

Political institutional thinking differs from yours - that means.

I am not saying that reservation policy is right, I am saying that your condlusions are more along subjective lines Caste exists with full strength and colours. Indians and their official institutions are grappling with it......! That is the truth. .

[indian224080]

I agree Caste exists. I am saying the Sage would be given a Kingly respect only if he says Brahmana=Dog. If he says any other Caste he will certainly not be alive.
But said, Caste is a matter of discussion only during Elections and in rural areas. In Cities which is roughly where 40% of people live do not bleave in caste.
Caste system is kept alive only by the GoI and TN Govt.

[mahadevan]

In Cities which is roughly where 40% of people live do not bleave in caste

I cannot stop but laugh, looks like indianxxx never lived in any Indian city. Just look at the rental Ad's in Hindu 'only ******* caste would be considered', is it not blatant casteism ?

[mahadevan]

Q.: You said there is equality in Hindu religion. What about the caste system ?
A.: Equality is a socio-economic and socio-political concept and relates to mundane matters. It is not relevant to an individual's efforts to identify himself with the Absolute. This can be done at the spiritual level only. Caste system is purely a social phenomenon and is dependent on a particular system of production and distribution of the surplus. India was the first country to take to agricultural production which required a lot of ..........

cant this guy answer the question, hindu society as a whole is not against such outmooded distirtions :roll: and says that sages look at cat/dog/human in the same vein, we are talking about the common hindu man and not saints. The point here is, discrimination in India is not entirely social, it had its genesis in Religion and get its support from the sacred scriptures.
Did not the scriptures say that different varnas came from different parts of god ?
did not the scriptures say that some are banned from certain type of intellectual work ?
did not the scriptures say punish/or worse kill the low caste if he attempts to be smart, irrespective of his genius ?
If this is not religion based discrimination then whatelse is it ?
Does the scriptures of any religion other than Hinduism say that particular section of its followers cannot go to the place of worship ?
He is talking as if the upper class hindu suddenly got awakened and brought in quota system for social upliftment, no buddy it is the hard work of lower caste that got the reservatioin benifits for them. Inspite of supressing them for 1000's of years the twice borns want the quota to be abolished in 50 years, can what was done for 1000's of years be undone in just a century ? It would be slow and wont be perfect, but it would achieve the end.(Any by the way, I am also impacted by BC/MBC/SC/etc quots system, I repent for what my forefathers did)

From his talk about sociology, he is just making himself as a laughing stuff


In Rome, there were patricians plebeians and slaves. Was Christianity responsible for the slave system? French Revolution occurred because of the conflict of castes or classes and so did Russian and Chinese Revolutions.

In Rome slavery existed before the birth of the christ and christ opposed it and his gospels never teached slavery. So christ/christianity can never be blamed for it. Whereas in India the Hindu scriptures not just supported but advocated discrimination and treated some of the subjects of the religion as equivalent to Pigs.

Would any of you show me a single reference where caste is associated with religion?
Pretty clear that either our swamiji has never read any scriptures or he suffers from serious amnesia.


Where is untouchability today? In our constitution? In our legal system?
It is not there thanks to a genius who was so pissed of with the vedic crap that he decided to become a buddist.

[mahadevan]

Reservation is/was the wrong solution for a real deep problem.

A failed attempt
After 60 years of Independence caste system still exists. Hatred between castes have only increased in the last 60 years.

Reservations did not fail, on the contrary it is extremly successful, a simple cursory look at the economy of the states like TN/AP/Karnataka that implemented reservation early can tell you the truth. It did fail in one assumption, it thought that the less than 10 % of the people who enjoyed 100 % reservation for 1000's of years may no longer need it, but that assumption is absolutely wrong.


Why Reservation failed was because

1) Economics was ignored.
- The first attempt should have been to remove economical backwardness. If the govt thought that limited govt jobs can do it then they where foolish.
Economics was not ignored, the vast majority of the people who got benifited from reservation system are from the lower strata of the society economically.


2) How can you expect generations of Illitrates to suddenly become Doctors/Engineers.

They can and they have already done it


3) Caste system was not abolished.
- Caste system is still not illegal. Law only protects from name calling. So one is allowed to say I am from so and so caste or that I am from upper caste.
Caste system in India is not just merely a social strata to be set right by passing laws. It is based on the Religion, there are only 2 ways to get rid of it, one way is for the subjugators to become good and treat everybody equally, this is not likely to happen. The other way is for the subjugated to get more economic and intellectual power and that automatically demands respect. This is what the quota system is providing.


4) No social reform
- Govt/Society did nothing to promote social measures like inter caste marraige, mixed community activities. All they did was "those guys are the bad ones and these guys are the poor victims". What better way to promote caste system.
Do not blame the govt they did not create the caste system, they are sincerely working for the upliftment, not by their good intentions but to get the votes, isnt democracy a great thing for the masses ?



1) Land reforms needs to implemented. The status of dalits and other backward castes are far better in states like Kerala and WB where land reforms have been done. Other steps to promote ecomonical growth of backward communities.
just by having a small piece of land dalits are not going to be allowed to enter temples


2) Promote inter caste co-ordinated activities - political, economic, cultural.
Like what ? are you saying inter caste marriages as advocated by EVR


3) Abolish caste system completely. Particularly from political arena.
Politicians did not create them they are exploiting what is there.


4) Complete and compulsory education.
very good idea

when every body blames politicians for the caste system which they did not create, why nobody is blaming our so called religious leaders ? why they do not condemn it ?
why are there 2 seperate lines at Kanchi mutt one for the twice born and one for the others ? is it not advocating casteism ?
when RSS etal can oraganize rallies with millions of people for some god damn temple in ayodha, why cant they organize a rally to fight against casteism ? why cant our rath yatra experts conduct one to fight casteism. Casteism is religious and it would stop only when our religious leaders accept it as wrong and start fighting against it.

[Sandeep]

Reservations did not fail, on the contrary it is extremly successful

Ok, if you say so. Since all my comments where based on "Why Reservation failed" you can ignore them. :|

[Lambretta]

Economics was not ignored, the vast majority of the people who got benifited from reservation system are from the lower strata of the society economically.
Actually many of us hav this misconception. After all these decades, all the reserved categories r still being stereotyped as economically backward wen it is not entirely so today! From Sandeep's statements, ther r many in the non-reserved category who r economically/socially backward but cant be entitled to the benefits tat reserved classes r......so tat this reservation is still a sympathetic boon to the economically backward only is as good as a myth.


They can and they have already done it
'Done it' in the sense, most managed to get the certificates after graduation in said fields....cos many of them hav been taking their career/future for granted, being confident at present tat reservation will exist in their favour forever!


The other way is for the subjugated to get more economic and intellectual power and that automatically demands respect. This is what the quota system is providing.
And unftly thereby also encouraging the 'eye for an eye' principle- again, as Sandeep points out- rather than equality-based development!

[dsath]

More views on the reservation system........
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/1493944.cms

[mahadevan]

Lambretta wrote:"Actually many of us hav this misconception. After all these decades, ........."

Agreed certain sections of the society has already got the economic upliftment thanks to reservation while at the same time some who where well of thanks to 100% reservation have come down economically, these are some inherent flaws in the system, nobody said that it is perfect. Remember reservation started as a remorse to social discrimination rather than setting right economic equality. This is often cited as the reason for the non inclusion of religious minorities in reservation system by the hindu right wing.


Lambretta wrote:"'Done it' in the sense, most managed to get the certificates after graduation in said fields....cos many of them hav been taking their career/future for granted, being confident at present tat reservation will exist in their favour forever! "
This has got nothing to do with reservation, it is do with quality of education imparted in our institutions. why are the institutions granting degrees with the students having less than the required knowledge level, even if they do this is a constant for all irrespective of the status of the students with respect to the quota system.

Lambretta wrote: "And unftly thereby also encouraging the 'eye for an eye' principle- again, as Sandeep points out- rather than equality-based development"
How can demanding self respect be an eye for an eye policy, could you please explain

[r_kk]

Does the scriptures of any religion other than Hinduism say that particular section of its followers cannot go to the place of worship ?

In Rome slavery existed before the birth of the christ and christ opposed it and his gospels never teached slavery. So christ/christianity can never be blamed for it.

Dear Mahadevan,
Even though I agree with most of your views on this subject, I contradict with the above views. Unfortunately all the religions (except godless religions like Buddhism, Jainism and tribal religions) are equally bad when it comes to the equality since basic aim of religion itself controlling the human mind in a pre-defined pattern. Christianity is no exception.... For more detail reading, please read my article written for another web site.
http://www.geocities.com/humanistamil/Christianity_slavery.htm

[Lambretta]

How can demanding self respect be an eye for an eye policy, could you please explain
Cud u plse explain how demanding increase in % of reservation w/ time can be deemed as a self-respect policy? It is only a motive of domination via propogated vengeance....the Govt/Society (I mean this time in India, not jus 1 or 2 states) didnt hav the inclination to work/take ne steps to bring abt equal self-respect among all citizens....all they did was, as Sandeep stated, propgate false sympathy & turn the tables by pointing out "those guys are the bad ones and these guys are the poor victims so let them hav a bigger piece of the cake."

[devapriya]

தமிழர் என்போர் பித்தலாட்டக்காரர்கள், கருங்காலிகள்! ' - ஈ.வே.ரா.வின் முழக்கம் விஸ்வாமித்ரா

தமிழ்மொழி பிற்போக்கான மொழி, மூவாயிரம் ஆண்டு வரலாற்றுப் பெருமை கொண்ட தமிழில் பெருமை கொள்ளும்படி, மூடநம்பிக்கை இல்லாத ஒரு நூலுமில்லை, தொல்காப்பியர், வள்ளுவர், கம்பர் போன்ற வான்புகழ் கொண்ட தமிழ்ப்புலவர்கள் எல்லாம் ஹிந்துமத வெறியர்கள், ஆரிய அடிவருடிகள், துரோகிகள் என்றெல்லாம் முத்துக்களை உதிர்த்துவந்த ஈ.வே.ராமசாமி நாயக்கரை எதிர்த்து மனசாட்சி கொண்ட ஒரு தமிழனும் கொதித்து எழவில்லையா என்று இன்றைய இளைஞர்கள், தன்மானத் தமிழர்கள்

ஆச்சரியப்படலாம். அப்படிக் கொதித்தெழுந்த பலர் இருந்தனர். ஆனால் அவர்களின் நியாயமான பேச்சுகள் எதுவுமே இன்று கிடைப்பதில்லை. பெருவாரி பத்திரிகைகள்

அவற்றைப் பிரசுரிப்பதும் இல்லை.

சொல்லப் போனால் ஈவேராவின் தமிழ்மொழி மற்றும் தமிழ்மரபு வெறுப்பினைக் காலப்போக்கில் உணர்ந்து கொண்ட அவர் தொண்டரடிப்பொடிகளில் சிலரே அவருக்கு எதிராகக் கொந்தளித்து எழுந்ததும் இன்று திரிக்கப்பட்டுள்ள திராவிட வரலாற்றில் பதிவு செய்யப்படவில்லை.

உதாரணமாய் ம.வெங்கடேசன் அவர்கள் திரட்டியிருக்கும் மேலும் சில தகவல்களைப் பார்க்கலாம்.

சிலம்புச்செல்வர் ம.பொ.சிவஞானம் அவர்கள் தமிழ்நாடு என்ற பெயரில்

மாநிலம் அமையச்செய்த அறப்போராட்டங்களை அறவே வெறுத்து வந்தார் ஈவேரா. தமிழ்நாடு என்ற பெயரே அவருக்கு ஒவ்வாமல் இருந்தது. திராவிடநாடு என்ற பெயரைப் புறம்தள்ளிவிட்டு மபொசியின் தமிழரசுக்கழகம் 'தமிழ், தமிழர், தமிழ்நாடு ' என்று முழக்கமிட்டு வந்தது ஈவேராவைக் கடும் கோபத்தில் ஆழ்த்தியது. இன்னதைத்தான் பேசுவது என்ற விவஸ்தை எப்போதும் இல்லாத நாயக்கர், மபொசியை மனதில் வைத்துக் கொண்டு ஒட்டுமொத்தமாய்த் தமிழர்களைத் திட்ட ஆரம்பித்தார்.

11.4.1947 தேதியிட்ட விடுதலையில் ஈவேரா எழுதியது:

'தமிழ்நாட்டைத் தனியாகப் பிரிக்க வேண்டும் என்பதும், தமிழரசு, தமிழர்ஆட்சி, தமிழ் மாகாணம் என்றும் பேசப்படுவனயெல்லாம் நம்முடைய சக்தியைக் குலைப்பதற்காகவும், குறைப்பதற்காகவும் செய்யப் படுகின்ற காரியங்கள் என்பதை நீங்கள் உணர வேண்டும். '

தொடர்ந்து மேடைகளில் தமிழர் என்போர் கருங்காலிகள், பித்தலாட்டக்காரர்கள் என்றெல்லாம் பேச ஆரம்பித்தார்.

ஈவேரா இப்படி மனம்போனபடி பொதுவாய்த் தமிழர்களை வைதுவருவதைக் கண்டித்துதிருச்சி முத்தமிழ்க்காவலர் கி.ஆ.பெ.விசுவநாதம் அவர்கள் ஒரு கட்டுரை எழுதினார்.

யார் இந்த கி.ஆ.பெ. ?ஈ.வே.ராமசாமி நாயக்கருடைய முன்னாள் சீடர்தான் அவர்.

ஈவேராவுடன் ஒன்றாகப் பணியாற்றிப் பின்பு கட்சியின் கொள்கைகளில் இருந்து ஈவேராமசாமி நாயக்கர் நழுவி விட்டதாகக் கூறி வெளிவந்தவர். தமிழுக்காக அரும்பாடு பட்டவர்.அவர் 25.1.1948 அன்று தமிழர்நாடு என்ற ஏட்டில் வரைந்த கட்டுரை
பின்வருமாறு:-

அண்மையில் சென்னை கோகலே ஹாலில் திரு.சி.டி.டி.அரசு அவர்கள் தலைமையில் நடைபெற்ற கூட்டத்தில் 'தமிழர் என்பதும், தமிழர் கழகம் என்பதும், தமிழரசுக் கட்சி என்பதும், தமிழர் ராஜீயம் என்பதும், தமிழ்நாடு தமிழருக்கே என்பதும் நமது முயற்சியைக் கெடுக்கும் சூழ்ச்சிகள் ' என்று பெரியார் அழுத்தம் திருத்தமாகக் கூறியிருக்கிறார். இது ஏற்கனவே பத்திரிகைகளில் வெளிவந்திருக்கிறது.

இப்பொழுது 'தமிழர் என்போர் பித்தலாட்டக்காரர்கள், கருங்காலிகள் ' என்று எழுதியும், பேசியும் வருகிறார்கள். ஆகவே வேண்டுமென்றே திட்டம் போட்டு வைய முன்வந்திருப்பதாக நன்கு விளங்குகிறது.
இதனால் தமிழ், தமிழர், தமிழ்நாடு தமிழ் அரசு என்று கூறக்கூடாதென்றும், திராவிடம், திராவிடர், திராவிடக்கழகம், திராவிடநாடு, திராவிட அரசு என்றே கூறவேண்டுமென்றும் அவர்கள் விரும்புவதாகத் தெரிகிறது. இது தமிழ்நாட்டின் பெருமக்களுக்கு மாறுபட்ட கொள்கையாக இருந்து வருகிறது. காரணம், ஆந்திர, மலையாள, கன்னட மக்களாகிய சுற்றியுள்ள மூன்று நாட்டினரும் திராவிடர் எனக் கூறாமல் தங்கள் மொழியையும், நாட்டையுமே முன்னெடுத்துக் கூறிவரும்போது தமிழ்நாட்டு மக்கள் மட்டும் தங்கள் மொழியையும் நாட்டையும் பற்றி ஏன் கூறக்கூடாது ? இதற்கு மாறுபட்டு இருப்பது எதன் பொருட்டு என்பது தமிழ் மக்களுக்கு விளங்கவில்லை.

எவ்விதமாயிருந்தாலும் மாறுபட்ட கருத்தும், கொள்கையும் உடையவர்களை பித்தலாட்டக்காரர்கள், கருங்காலிகள் என்று கூற வேண்டியது அவசியம்தானா என்பதையும் பெரியாரே எண்ணிப் பார்க்க வேண்டும். ஒரு கழகத்தின் தலைவர் வாயிலிருந்து இக்கடுஞ்சொற்கள் வருவது நேர்மையானதுதானா என்பதைப் பொதுமக்களே கருதிப்பார்க்க வேண்டும்.

ஆந்திர நாட்டுக்குச் சென்று, ஆந்திரர், ஆந்திரநாடு என்று சொல்பவர்களிடம், அவ்வாறு சொல்வோர் பித்தலாட்டக் கருங்காலிகள் என்று இவர் இதுவரை சொல்லியிருக்கிறாரா ?
கேரள நாட்டுக்குச் சென்று, கேரளர், கேரளநாடு என்று சொல்பவர்களிடம், அவ்வாறு சொல்வோர் பித்தலாட்டக் கருங்காலிகள் என்று இவர் இதுவரை சொல்லியிருக்கிறாரா ?
கன்னடிய நாட்டுக்குச் சென்று, கன்னடியர், கன்னடநாடு என்று சொல்பவர்களிடம், அவ்வாறு சொல்வோர் பித்தலாட்டக் கருங்காலிகள் என்று இவர் இதுவரை சொல்லியிருக்கிறாரா ?

இனியேனும் சொல்வாரா ? இதுவரை சொல்லவில்லையென்றால் தமிழர், தமிழ்நாடு என்று சொல்லுகிறவர்களை மட்டும்
பித்தலாட்டக் கருங்காலிகள் என்று சொல்லுவானேன் ?

பித்தலாட்டக்காரர்கள், கருங்காலிகள் என்று சும்மா சொல்லி விடுவது மட்டும் போதாது. காரணம் காட்டிக் கூறியிருக்க வேண்டும். அவ்வாறு கூறாதது அவர்களுடைய ஆத்திரத்தைக் காட்டுகிறதே தவிர உண்மையைக் காட்டுவதாக அறிவாளிகளால் ஒப்ப முடியாது.

மற்றொரு நண்பர், கிராமணியார் (ம.பொ.சி) அவர்களைத்தான் அவ்வாறு கூறியிருக்கிறார்என்று நினைத்து நமக்கு எழுதி இருக்கிறார். இது உண்மையானால் நேரடியாக எழுதி இருக்கலாமே! அப்படி இருந்தாலும் கூட கிராமணியார் ஒரு மாறுபட்ட கருத்தினர் என்பதற்காக அவரது தமிழ்ப்பற்றும், தமிழ்நாட்டுப்பற்றும் நமக்குத் தேவையில்லாமல் போய்விடுமா ?

இதற்காக அவரைப் பித்தலாட்டக்காரர் என்றும் கருங்காலி என்றும் கூறுவது முறையா என்பதையும் அன்பர்கள் எண்ணிப் பார்க்க வேண்டும்.

தமிழர் கழகத்தையும், தமிழரசுக் கழகத்தையும் நேரடியாகத் தாக்கி, தமிழ்ப்பற்று, தமிழ்நாட்டுப் பற்றுள்ள மக்களை வேண்டுமென்றே வைதிருக்கிறார் என்று முடிவாகத் தெரிகிறது.இதை மெய்ப்பிக்க கழகம் என்ற சொல்லை எடுத்துவிட்டு, தமிழர், தமிழரசு என்று சுட்டிக்காட்டி வைதிருப்பதே போதுமான சான்றாகும்.

நம்மைப் பொறுத்தவரையில் பெரியாரின் தன்மைக்கு இச்சொற்கள் ஏற்றதல்ல என்றே கூறுவோம்.இப்போது கூறியதை அவர் திரும்பப் பெற வேண்டும். இன்றேல் தாம் கூறியதைக் காரணம் காட்டிமெய்ப்பிக்க வேண்டும். இதுவே தமிழர், தமிழரசு, தமிழ்நாடு தமிழருக்கேஎன்று கூறுகிற 'பித்தலாட்டக் கருங்காலி 'களின் கோரிக்கையாகும்.

(நன்றி: புதிய தமிழகம் படைத்த வரலாறு - ம.பொ.சி)

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திண்ணையில் விஸ்வாமித்ரா

[devapriya]

I GIVE E.V.Ramasamy Naicker’s views on Tamil for all
முட்டாள்தனம்
இந்த அதிசயக் காலத்தில் எனது தாய்மொழி, எனது தாய்நாடு இதற்காக எனது உயிரை விடுவேன் என்று முட்டாள்தனமாகப் பிடிவாதம் பிடித்தால், நாம் எப்போது முன்னேறுவது? உலகம் நாளுக்கு நாள் நமக்கு நெருக்கமாக வந்து கொண்டிருப்பதை எண்ணிப் பார்க்க வேண்டாமா?- 'விடுதலை'(14.11.1972)யில் பெரியார்

ஹிந்தி இருக்கட்டும்
இந்தி வேண்டவே வேண்டாம் என்பதல்ல எங்கள் கொள்கை. அதைக் கட்டாயப்படுத்தக்கூடாது என்று நாங்கள் சொல்லுகிறோம். சில காரியத்திற்காக இந்தியைக் கட்டாயமாக்க வேண்டுமானாலும் கட்டாயமாக்குங்கள். ஆனால் குழந்தைகளுக்கு வேண்டாம். பெரியவர்களுக்கு, கல்லூரி மாணவர்களுக்கு வேண்டுமானால் இருக்கட்டும் என்றுதான் நாங்கள் கூறுகிறோம்.- 'விடுதலை'(07.10.1948)யில் பெரியார்

திருக்குறள் ஒரு கெட்ட நாற்றம் [/size]
வள்ளுவர் குறளையும், அந்தப்படியே அப்போது பகுத்தறிவுக்கு ஏற்றதல்ல என்று கண்டித்து வந்தேன். எல்லாவற்றையும் குறை சொல்லும்போது பலர் என்னிடம், ‘எல்லாம் போய்விட்டால் நமக்கு எதுதான் நூல்?’ என்று கேட்பார்கள். நான், இங்கே இருக்கிற மலத்தினால் கெட்ட நாற்றம் வீசுகிறது. அதை எடுத்து விடு’ என்று கூறினால் ‘அந்த இடத்தில் என்ன வைப்பது என்றா கேட்பது..?” என்று பதில் கூறுவேன்.- விடுதலை(1.6.50)யில் பெரியார்

சிலப்பதிகாரம் ஒரு புளுகு
....அந்தக் கண்ணகியைப் புகழ்வதும், தமிழச்சிக்கு உதாரணம் காட்டுவதும் தமிழர் சமுதாயத்துக்கு எவ்வளவு இழுக்கு தெரியுமா? ... இந்த சிலப்பதிகாரம் போல் வேறு அழுக்கு மூட்டை இலக்கியம் இல்லவே இல்லை. இது ஒரு கற்பனைக் கதை. கண்ணகியும் ஒரு கற்பனை பெண் பிள்ளை. நூல் முழுதும் மடத்தனம். புளுகு. இப்படியா தமிழனுடைய வாழ்க்கைக்கு உதாரணம் காட்டுவது? - விடுதலை(28.3.60)யில் பெரியார்

சிலப்பதிகாரம் ‘தேவடியாள்’ மாதிரி
இந்த சிலப்பதிகாரம் எப்படி அமைந்திருக்கிறது என்றால், பாச மூட நம்பிக்கை, ஆரியக் கருத்துக்களைக் கொண்டு, நல்ல தமிழ் அமைப்பு உடையதாகக் கொண்டு தேவடியாளுக்குச் சமமாக - அதாவது தேவடியாள் எப்படி பார்ப்பதற்கு அலங்காரமாய் இருப்பாளோ, ஆனால் உள்ளே போய் பார்த்தால் உள்ளமெல்லாம் வஞ்சகம் நிறைந்தும், உடலெல்லாம் நோய் கொண்டும், வளையல் அணிந்து மக்களை ஏய்த்துப் பிழைப்பதாகக் காணப்படுகின்றதோ அது போலத்தான் இந்த சிலப்பதிகாரமும் ஆகும்.- விடுதலை(28.7.51)யில் பெரியார்

முக்கொலை
போதாக்குறைக்கு ‘பெரியார் கல்லூரியில் படித்தவர்கள்’ என்றும் ‘நாங்கள் பகுத்தறிவுவாதிகள்’ என்றும் சொல்லிக் கொள்ளும் இன்றைய மந்திரிகள், ‘தமிழுக்கு, தமிழ் மொழிக்கு கேடு வந்தால் நாங்கள் பதவியை விட்டு வெளியேறி விடுவோம்’ என்று சொல்கிறார்கள் என்றால் இதில் என்ன பகுத்தறிவு இருக்கிறது? என்ன பெரியார் வாசனை இருக்கிறது? உயர்தர படிப்புகளையெல்லாம் கல்லூரியிலும்கூட தமிழிலேயே ஆக்குகிறோம் என்றால், மக்களை முட்டாளாக்குகிறோம் என்றுதானே பொருள்? இப்படியான நிலை ஏற்பட்டால் இது முக்கொலை என்றுதானே ஆகும்? தமிழ் மொழியும் கெட்டு, பாட விஷயமும் பொருளும் கெட்டு, ஆங்கிலமும் கெடும்படி ஆவதால் இது மூன்று கொலை செய்ததாகத்தானே முடியும்? இதுதானா இந்தச் சிப்பாய்கள் வேலை? - விடுதலை (5.4.67)யில் பெரியார்

இன்றைய தேவை ஆங்கிலம்
நாம் இன்றைய நிலைமையைவிட வேகமாக முன்னேற வேண்டுமானால் ஆங்கிலம்தான் சிறந்த சாதனம் என்றும், ஆங்கிலமே அரசியல் மொழியாகவும், போதனை மொழியாகவும் இருந்தாக வேண்டுமென்றும், ஆங்கில எழுத்துக்களே தமிழ் நெடுங்கணக்கு எழுத்துக்களாவது அவசியம் என்றும், ஆங்கிலமே நம் பேச்சு மொழியாவது நலம் பயக்கும் என்றும் தெரிவித்துக் கொள்கிறேன். - ‘மொழியும் அறிவும்’ நூலில் பெரியார்

தமிழ் ஒன்றுக்கும் பயன்படாது
தமிழ் படித்தால் பிச்சைகூட கிடைக்காது. தமிழ் படித்து பிச்சை எடுப்பதைத் தவிர வேறு உயிர் வாழ ஒன்றுக்கும் பயன்படவில்லை என்பதோடு, அதற்காகச் செலவு செய்த காலத்தை வேறு துறையில் செலவிட்டால், வாழ்வில் பயன் ஏற்பட்டிருக்கும் என்பதை ஏறத்தாழ 100 ஆண்டுகளுக்கு முன்பே தமிழ் கற்ற ஓர் அனுபவப் புலவர் பாடியுள்ளார். - தந்தை பெரியார் விடுதலை(27.11.43)யில்..

தமிழின் பெயரால் பிழைப்பு
நமது நாட்டில் வேறு வழியில் பிழைக்க முடியாதவர்கள், தமிழின் பெயரால் பிழைக்கத் துடிக்கிறார்கள். அவர்கள் துடிதுடிப்புத்தான், ‘தமிழைக் காக்க வேண்டும்’; ‘தமிழுக்கு உழைப்பேன்’, ‘தமிழுக்காக உயிர் விடுவேன்’ என்பது போன்ற கூப்பாடுகள். இதில் மற்ற மக்கள் சிக்குண்டு ஏமாந்து போகக்கூடாது.-தந்தை பெரியார் விடுதலை (16.3.67)
தமிழ் படித்தால் நடைப்பிணமாய் இருக்கலாம் .
..தமிழ் மக்கள் என்னும் குழந்தைகளுக்கு தாய்ப்பால் என்னும் தமிழானது, முன்னேற்றம் என்னும் உடல் தேறுவதற்கோ, வளர்வதற்கோ பயன்பட்டு இருக்கின்றதா? பயன்படுமா? தாய்ப்பால் சிறந்தது என்பதில் தாய்ப்பாலில் சக்தியும், சத்தும் இருந்தால்தான் அது சிறந்ததாகும். இங்கு தமிழ் என்னும் தாயே சத்தமற்றவள் என்பதோடு, நோயாளியாகவும் இருக்கும்போது அந்தப் பாலைக் குடிக்கும் பிள்ளை உருப்படியாக முடியுமா? தாய்க்கு நல்ல உணவு இருந்தால்தானே அவளுக்கு பாலும் ஊறும்; அந்தப் பாலுக்கும் சக்தி இருக்கும். தமிழில் நல்ல உணவு எங்கே இருக்கிறது?
இப்படிப்பட்ட இந்தத் தாய்ப்பாலைக் குடித்து வளர்ந்த பிள்ளைகள், இந்நாட்டிலேயே நடைப்பிணமாய் இருப்பதைத் தவிர, அதுவும் மற்றவன் கை, காலில் நடப்பதைத் தவிர உழைப்புக்கு - காரியத்துக்கு பயன்படும்படியான, தன் காலால் தாராளமாய் நடக்கும்படியான பிள்ளை - ஒற்றைப் பிள்ளை தமிழ்நாட்டில் இருக்கின்றதா என்பதை அன்பர்கள் காட்டட்டுமே - என்றுதான் பரிவோடு கேட்கிறேன்.
இன்றைய தினம்கூட மேற்கண்ட தமிழ்த் தாயின் பாலை நேரே அருந்தி வளர்ந்த பிள்ளைகள், இங்கிலீஷ் புட்டிப் பாலை அருந்தி இருப்பார்களேயானால், இந்த அன்பர்கள் உட்பட எவ்வளவோ சக்தியும், திறமையும் உடையவர்களாக ஆகி, இவர்கள் வாழ்க்கை நிலையே வேறாக, அதாவது அவர்கள் நல்ல பயன் அடைபவர்களாக ஆகி இருப்பார்கள் என்பதோடு, மற்றவர்களுக்கும் பயன்படும்படியான நல்ல உரம் உள்ள உழைப்பாளிகளாகி இருப்பார்கள் என்று உறுதியோடு கூறுகிறேன்.- தந்தை பெரியார் ‘தாய்ப் பால் பைத்தியம்’ நூலில்

பலரும் அறிந்த சொல்லைப் புறக்கணிப்பானேன்?
சாதாரணமாகப் பிரயாணத்திற்குப் பயன்படும் ரயில், கார், லாரி, பஸ், சைக்கிள் என்ற பெயர்களை எதற்காக மாற்ற வேண்டும்? இந்தியாவில் உள்ள பல நூற்றுக்கணக்கான மொழி பேசும் மக்களும், இந்தப் பெயர்களை அப்படியேதான் பயன்படுத்திக் கொள்கிறார்கள். - தந்தை பெரியார் ‘அறிவு விருந்து’ நூலில்

வெளிநாட்டான் அறிவு இனிப்பு; மொழி கசப்பா? சர்வத்தையும், விஞ்ஞான மயமாக வெளிநாட்டு முறைகளைக் கொண்டு ஆக்கி, சர்வத்திலும் மேல் நாட்டானை(புதிய முறைகளை)ப் பின்பற்றி வளர்ச்சி அடையவே முயற்சிக்கிறோம். திட்டம் போடுகிறோம். இந்தக் காரியங்களுக்கு தமிழர்-முத்தமிழர் சங்கங்களையே நம்பி என்ன காரியத்திற்கு ஆங்கிலக் கருத்தோ, இங்கிலீஷ் சொல்லோ, ஆங்கிலேயனிடம் பயிற்சியோ இல்லாமல் இங்கிலீஷை பகிஷ்கரித்துவிட்டு என்ன சாதித்துக் கொள்ள முடியும்? - தந்தை பெரியார்

தமிழில் என்ன நல்ல கருத்து உள்ளது? நாட்டுக்குச் சுதந்திரம் கிடைத்து இன்றைக்கு 20வது ஆண்டு நடக்கிறது. 20 ஆண்டு சுதந்திர வாய்ப்பில் தமிழ் மக்கள் அடைந்த நிலை, ‘இங்கிலீஷ் வேண்டாம்; தமிழ் வேண்டும்.’ இதுதானா? அய்யோ பைத்தியமே தமிழை (பிற மொழிகளிலிருந்து மொழி பெயர்க்கப்படாத) தமிழ் மூல நூல்களை, தனித் தமிழ் இலக்கிய நூல்களில் எதை எடுத்துக் கொண்டாலும், அவற்றிலிருந்து எழுத்து, சொல், பொருள், யாப்பு, அணி என்பதான இலக்கணப்படி அமைந்த தமிழ் ‘சுவை’ அல்லாமல் அறிவு, பகுத்தறிவு, வாழ்க்கை அறிவு, வளர்ச்சி பெறுவதற்கான ஏதாவது ஒரு சாதனத்தை சிறு கருத்தை பூதக் கண்ணாடி வைத்து தேடியாவது கண்டுபிடிக்க முடியுமா? கண்டு பிடித்துப் பயன்படுத்தப்பட்டிருக்கிறதா என்று தமிழ் அபிமானிகளை வணக்கத்தோடு கேட்கிறேன். - தந்தை பெரியார்

தொல்காப்பியன் மாபெரும் துரோகி
தொல்காப்பியன் ஆரியக்கூலி. ஆரிய தர்மத்தையே தமிழ் இலக்கணமாகச் செய்துவிட்ட மாபெரும் துரோகி. திருவள்ளுவன் அக்காலத்திற்கு ஏற்ற வகையில் ஆரியக் கருத்துக்கு ஆதரவு கொடுக்கும்வகையில், பகுத்தறிவைப் பற்றிக் கவலைப்படாமல் நீதி கூறும்வகையில் தனது மத உணர்ச்சியோடு ஏதோ கூறிச் சென்றார்.- தந்தை பெரியார் ‘தமிழும், தமிழரும்’ நூலில்

வேறு மொழி ஏற்பதால் கேடு என்ன?
தமிழை ஒதுக்கி விடுவதால் உனக்கு நட்டம் என்ன? வேறு மொழியை ஏற்றுக் கொள்ளுவதால் உனக்குப் பாதகம் என்ன? தமிழிலிருக்கும் பெருமை என்ன? நான் சொல்லும் ஆங்கிலத்தில் இருக்கும் சிறுமை என்ன? நமது நாட்டுக்கு கமால்பாட்சா ஆட்சி போன்ற ஒரு வீரனும், யோக்கியனுமான ஒருவன் ஆட்சி இல்லை என்பதால், பல முண்டங்கள் பலவிதமாய் பேசி முடிக்கிறதே அல்லாமல், இன்று தமிழைக் காப்பாற்ற வேண்டிய அவசியம் யாருக்கு என்ன வந்தது என்று கேட்கிறேன்.- தந்தை பெரியார்

பிழைப்புக்கு ஆதாரமாய் தாய்மொழி வேஷம்
அரசியலில் பிரவேசிக்க நேர்ந்த பல அரசியல்வாதிகள், மக்களின் மடமையை நிறுத்து அறிந்ததன் காரணமாய், அவர்களில் பலரும் தமிழை தங்கள் பிழைப்பிற்கு ஆதாரமாய்க் கொண்டு தாய் மொழிப் பற்று வேஷம் போட்டுக் கொண்டு வேட்டை ஆடுவதன் மூலம், மக்களது சிந்தித்துப் பார்க்கும் தன்மையையே பாழாக்கி விடுகிறார்கள்.- தந்தை பெரியார்

தமிழறிஞர்களுக்கும் பகுத்தறிவுக்கும் வெகுதூரம்
தமிழ் படித்த, தமிழில் புலவர்களான வித்துவான்கள் பெரிதும் 100க்கு 99 பேருக்கு ஆங்கில வாசனையே இல்லாத வித்துவான்களாக.. தமிழ்ப் புலவராகவே வெகுகாலம் இருக்க நேர்ந்துவிட்டதால், அவர்களுக்கும் பகுத்தறிவுக்கும் வெகுதூரம் ஏற்பட்டதோடு, அவர்கள் உலகம் அறியாத பாமரர்களாகவே இருக்க வேண்டியவர்கள் ஆகிவிட்டார்கள். ஆகவேதான் புலவர்கள் வித்துவான்கள் என்பவர்கள் 100க்கு 90 பேர்கள்வரை இன்றைக்கும் அவர்களது வயிறு வளர்ப்பதற்கல்லாமல் மற்றெதற்கும் பயன்படுவதற்கில்லாதவர்களாக ஆகிவிட்டார்கள்.

தமிழால் என்ன நன்மை?
தமிழ் தோன்றிய 3000-4000 ஆண்டுகளாக இந்த நாட்டில் வாழ்ந்த தமிழினாலும், தமிழ் படித்த புலவனாலும் தமிழ் நாட்டிற்கு, தமிழ் சமுதாயத்திற்கு என்ன நன்மை? என்ன முற்போக்கு உண்டாக்கப்பட்டிருக்கிறது? இலக்கியங்களிலே, சரித்திரங்களிலே காணப்படும் எந்தப் புலவனால், எந்த வித்துவானால், எவன் உண்டாக்கிய இலக்கியங்களினால் இதுவரை தமிழனுக்கு ஏற்படுப்படுத்தப்பட்ட, ஏற்படுத்திய நன்மை என்ன என்று கேட்கிறேன்.

தமிழ் காட்டுமிராண்டி பாஷை
இந்தத் தமிழ் மொழியானது காட்டுமிராண்டி மொழி என்று நான் ஏன் சொல்கிறேன்? எதனால் சொல்கிறேன்? என்று இன்று கோபித்துக் கொள்ளும் யோக்கியர்கள் ஒருவர்கூட சிந்தித்துப் பேசுவதில்லை. ‘வாய் இருக்கிறது; எதையாவது பேசி வயிறை வளர்ப்போம்’ என்பதைத் தவிர, அறிவையோ, மானத்தையோ, ஒழுக்கத்தையோ பற்றி சிறிதுகூட சிந்திக்காமலே பேசி வருகிறார்கள்.
இப்படிப்பட்ட இவர்கள் போக்குப்படியே சிந்தித்தாலும், ‘தமிழ் மொழி 3000-4000 ஆண்டுகளுக்கு முந்தி ஏற்பட்ட மொழி’ என்பதை, தமிழின் பெருமைக்கு ஒரு சாதனமாகக் கொண்டு பேசுகிறார்கள். நானும் தமிழ் காட்டுமிராண்டி மொழி என்பதற்கு அதைத்தானே முக்கியக் காரணமாகய்ச் சொல்கிறேன். அன்று இருந்த மக்களின் நிலை என்ன? அவன் சிவனாகட்டும், அகஸ்தியனாகட்டும், பாணிணியாகட்டும் மற்றும் எவன்தான் ஆகட்டும், இவன்களைப் பற்றித் தெரிந்து கொள்ள உனக்குப் புத்தியில்லாவிட்டால், நீ தமிழைப் பற்றிப் பேசும் தகுதி உடையவனவாயா?

EVR ON RESERVATION:

எந்த மதத்துக்கும், எந்த ஜாதிக்கும் சலுகை கூடாது
மதங்கள் என்பவை எல்லாம் அவரவர்களுடைய தனி எண்ணமாகவும், தனி ஸ்தாபனங்களாகவுமே இருக்கும்படிச் செய்வதுடன், அரசியலில் - அரசியல் நிர்வாகத்தில் அவை எவ்வித சம்பந்தமும் குறிப்பும் பெறாமல் இருக்க வேண்டும். ஜாதிக்கென்றோ, மதத்திற்கென்றோ எவ்விதச் சலுகையோ உயர்வு, தாழ்வோ, அந்தஸ்தோ, அவற்றிற்காக அரசாங்கத்திலிருந்து தனிப்பட்ட முறைகளைக் கையாளுவதோ, ஏதாவது பொருள் செலவிடுவதோ ஆகியவை கண்டிப்பாய் இருக்கக் கூடாது.- தந்தை பெரியார்
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[joe]

இன்றும் பெரியாரை பழித்தும் ,அவரைப் பற்றி குறுகிய கண்ணோட்டத்தை பரப்பவும் ஒரு கூட்டமே இருப்பதே ,பெரியாரின் தாக்கம் இன்றும் இருப்பதற்கான சான்று. பெரியார் பெயரைக் கேட்டாலே சும்மா அதிருதில்ல!

[joe]

தந்தை பெரியார் தமிழ் விரோதி ?

பெரியார் தமிழை முன்னிறுத்தவில்லை, மாறாக 'திராவிடர் இயக்கம்' என்று சொல்லை முன்னிறுத்திவிட்டார், அவர் தம்மை கன்னடர் என்று கருதி இருந்ததாலேயே தான் திராவிடர் என்ற சொல்லை பயன்படுத்தினர், எனவே பெரியார் தமிழுக்கு விரோதியா ? என்கிற ஐயப்பாட்டை சிலர் எழுப்புகிறார்கள்.

எந்த ஒரு கொள்கைகள் அல்லது மேடை பேச்சுக்கள் ஆகியவை அவை எந்த சூழலில் சொல்லப்பட்டவை என்பதை பொதுமக்கள் நினைவு வைத்திருக்க மாட்டார்கள் என்பதால் குட்டையை குழப்பி மீன் பிடிப்பதில் அதிக மீன்களை சுலமாக பிடிக்க முடியும் என்பது ஒரு வகை உத்திதான். பெரியார் கொள்கைகளை அறிந்த நண்பர் அரைபிளேடு அதுபோல் செய்திருக்க வாய்ப்பில்லை. 'திராவிட' என்ற சொல்லே 'சூத்திர' பாசை என்று இழித்துக் கூறப்பட்ட தமிழை முதன் முதலில் பலுக்கத் தெரியாமல் (உச்சரிப்பில்) திரித்துச் சொல்லப்பட்ட தமிழின் மற்றொரு பெயர் ( பாவணர் கூற்றுப்படி தமிழ் > த்ரமிள > த்ரமிட > திராவிட). பின்னாளில் தமிழிலிருந்து திரிந்து போன மொழிகளே கன்னடம், தெலுங்கு, துளு மற்றும் மலையாளம். இவை பேசப்படும் நிலப்பரப்புகளை நாம் இன்னாளில் திராவிட நிலங்கள் என்று புதிதாக அடையாளப்படுத்தவில்லை. அவை ஏற்கனவே வடமொழியாளர்களால் அப்படி குறியீடு செய்யப்பட்டவைதான். சாதிக் கொடுமைகளுக்கு எதிரான போராட்டத்தில் திராவிட என்ற சொல்லை பார்பனீய அல்லது பிராமன சித்தாந்தங்களுக்கு எதிராக பயன்படுத்தி அந்த சொல்லை வெளிக் கொணர்ந்தவர் அயோத்திதாச பண்டிதர். அதன் பிறகே பெரியாரும் அதே சொல்லை திராவிட இயக்கம் என்ற பெயருக்கு பயன்படுத்திக் கொண்டார்.

எதோ தமிழ்நாட்டில் மட்டும் தான் சாதிய கொடுமைகள் நடப்பதாக பெரியார் நினைத்திருந்தால் 'தமிழர் இயக்கம்' என்று கூட வைத்திருந்திருப்பார். அவர் கேரளா வைக்கம் வரை சென்று போராடி இருப்பதை நினைவு கூர்ந்து பார்க்கையில் ஒட்டு மொத்த திராவிட நிலப்பரப்பும் சாதிய கொடுமைகளில் இருந்து விடுபடவேண்டும் என்று பரந்த நோக்கில் 'திராவிடர் இயக்கம்' என்று பெயர் சூட்டி இருக்கிறார். பெரியார் தம் இயக்கம் வலுப்பெற்றிருந்தாலும் அதை அரசியல் கட்சியாக்கி நிறுவனப்படுத்த பெரியார் நினைத்தவர் அல்ல. இந்நாளில் திராவிட கட்சிகள் கொள்கைகளை மறந்து 'தூய அரசியல்' செய்து கொண்டிருப்பதை பார்க்கையில் பெரியாரின் முன்னறிதலால்(தீர்க தரிசனம்) உணர்ந்திருந்து, திராவிட இயக்கம் அரசியல் கட்சியாக வளர்ந்தால் அதனால் சமரசங்கள் ஏற்பட்டு கொள்கைகள் திரியும் என்று நன்கு உணர்ந்திருந்தார்.

பெரியார் சுதந்திர நாளை துக்க தினமாக அறிவித்ததற்கு காரணமே ஆட்சி அதிகாரம் என்பது ஆதிக்க சக்திகளின் கைகளில் வீழ்ந்து மீண்டும் இந்திய பழமை வாதத்தைத் தாங்கிப் பிடித்து, மூவர்ண கொடி என்பது நான்கு வருண கொடியாகவே ஆகிவிடும் என்று நம்பியதால் தான். அதையே தான் மகாத்மா காந்தி வேறு வடிவில் வலியுறுத்தினார். அதாவது சுதந்திர இந்தியாவில் காங்கிரஸ் கட்சியை கலைத்துவிட வேண்டும் என்று வெளிப்படையாக அறிவித்தார். பெரியார் சொன்னதும் சரி, மகாத்மா சொன்னதும் சரி இரண்டுமே ஆதிக்க சக்திகளின் கையில் மீண்டும் இந்தியா விழுந்துவிடும் என்று நன்கு உணர்ந்தாதால் ஏற்பட்ட மாற்றுச் சிந்தனைகள். அண்ணாதுரை போன்றவர்கள் சுதந்திர தினம் என்பது சுதந்திர போராட்ட வீரர்களின் குறுதிக்கு கிடைத்த பலன் என்றும் அந்த சுதந்திர தினத்தை துக்க நாளாக அறிவித்தது தவறு என்று போர் கொடி தூக்கிவிட்டு திராவிட முன்னேற்ற கழகம் என்ற கட்சியை உருவாக்கினார். திராவிட கட்சிகளின் உதயம் என்பது சுதந்திரம் அடைந்ததை குறித்த வெளிப்படையான கருத்துக்களால் பெரியாருக்கும் அவரது பற்றாளர்களுக்கும் ஏற்பட்ட கருத்து வேறுபாட்டால் உருவான இயக்கம் தான். திராவிட முன்னேற்றக் கழகத்தை தமிழகத்தின் மாற்றுக் கட்சியாக உருவாக்கி முதல்வராக அமர்ந்த அண்ணாதுரை அவர்களும் அந்த வெற்றியை பெரியாருக்கு காணிக்கையாக்கி தாம் பெரியாரின் பாசறையை சேர்ந்தவர் என்று பெரியாருக்கே புரியவைத்தார் என்பது பெரியார் திரைப்படத்திலும் பதிவாகி இருக்கிறது.

பெரியாரின் தமிழ்பற்றிய பல்வேறு விமர்சனங்கள் எழுந்தகாலத்தில் தமிழ் முற்றிலும் சிதைந்ததாகவே இருந்தது. அப்பொழுது இருந்தது தமிழ் 'மொழி' அல்ல, வடமொழியை கலந்து திரிக்கப்பட்ட மணிப்பவள தமிழ் 'பாஷை'. அதன் இயல்பு நடையெல்லாம் தொலைந்து போய் பக்தி இலக்கியங்களையும், வடமொழி மொழிப்பெயர்பான இராமயணம், மகாபாரத கதா கலேசபங்களைத்தான் விழாக்களில் அரங்கேற்றி வந்தனர். பெரியார் அறிந்திருந்த தமிழ் காட்டு மிராண்டி 'பாசை' என்று சொல்லும் அளவுக்கு அது களங்கப்பட்டு இருந்தது. திருக்குறளுக்கு கொடுக்கப்பட்ட திரிக்கப்பட்ட விளக்கங்கள் போன்றே சிலப்பதிக்காரகதைகளின் உட்பொருளை சிதைத்து கற்பை முன்னிறுத்தி அவை உயர்வாக பேசப்பட்டது. இதையெல்லாம் பார்த்தே பெரியார் பழமைவாதம் பேசும் மொழியாக தமிழை நினைத்து தமிழ் 'காட்டு மிராண்டி பாசை' என்றார். பின்னாளில் அவர் கொடுத்த ஊக்கத்தில் தான் பாரதிதாசன், தேவநேயப் பாவாணர் போன்றவர் தமிழில் இருந்த வேற்று மொழிச் சொற்களுக்கு மாற்றான புதிய தமிழ் சொற்களை சங்க இலக்கியங்களில் இருந்து அறிமுகப்படுத்தினர். பக்தி பாடல்கள் எழுதினாலும் பெரியாரின் சீர்த்திருத்த எழுத்துக்களைத்தான் அவற்றில் பயன்படுத்துகிறோம் :) பெரியாரின் தமிழ்குறித்த விமர்சனங்கள் பெற்றவர்கள் பிள்ளையை கண்டிப்பது போன்று அக்கரைகளினால் எழுந்த கோபமேயன்றி அது துவேசம் இல்லை.

'மெல்லத் தமிழினி சாகும்' என்று சொல்லில் தமிழ் வீழவேண்டும் என்ற ஆசையில் தான் பாரதி தமிழுக்கு சாபம் கொடுத்தான் என்று நாமாகவே நினைத்து கேள்வி எழுப்பி பாரதியின் தமிழ்பற்றை குறைபட்டுக் கொள்ளவது எவ்வளவு நம் அறியாமையை காட்டுமோ, அது போல் தான் தந்தை பெரியாரின் தமிழ் குறித்த பேச்சுக்கள் பற்றிய எதிர்மறை விமர்சனங்கள்.
http://govikannan.blogspot.com/2007/09/blog-post_10.html

[joe]

தனது சுகம் துறந்து தொண்டு புரிந்தவர் பெரியார்

தேவமைந்தன்





தொண்ணூற்று ஐந்து ஆண்டுகள் பெருவாழ்வு வாழ்ந்த பெரியாரின் தனிவாழ்க்கை முப்பந்தைந்து ஆண்டுகளே; பொதுவாழ்க்கை சற்றேறக்குறைய அறுபது ஆண்டுகள். பெரியார்தம் பொதுவாழ்க்கை, ஒப்பரிய போராட்ட வாழ்க்கை.


பெரியாரின் பன்முகத் தொண்டுக்குத் தொடக்கம் எது? தலைசிறந்த மனிதாபிமானப் பற்றுதான் அது. மனிதன் எவனே ஆயினும் மனிதனாக சுயமரியாதையுடன் வாழ வேண்டும். மனிதர்களுக்குள்ளே ஏற்றத்தாழ்வு கூடாது. "சமத்துவ மனிதாபிமானப் பெருஞ்சுனையின் இடையறாத ஓட்டமே, பெரியாரின் வாழ்க்கை என்னும் வீர, வெற்றிக்காவியம் ஆகும்" என்று சரியாகச் சொல்லியிருக்கிறார் நெ.து.சுந்தரவடிவேலு அவர்கள்.


1950ஆம் ஆண்டுவரை, நம் சிற்றூர்களில் மட்டும் அல்லாமல் நகர்ப்புறங்களில் கூட வேனிற் காலத்துத் தண்ணீர்ப் பந்தல்களிலும் - எல்லாக் காலத்தும் சுறுசுறுப்பாக இயங்கும் தேநீர் விடுதிகளிலும் அனைத்துச் சாதிக்காரர்களும் ஒடுக்கப்பட்டவர்களை நடத்திய விதம் மிகவும் கொடுமையானது. இதற்கு ஒரு முற்றுப்புள்ளி வைத்தவர் பெரியார். இதற்கு அடிப்படையாக அவர் 'செல்லப் பிள்ளை'யாகவும் 'செல்வர் பிள்ளை'யாகவும் 'கட்டுக்கடங்காத பிள்ளை'யாகவும் வாழ்ந்த இளம்பருவத்திலேயே பட்டறிந்த நிகழ்ச்சிகள் அமைந்தன. "நாம் பலரை இழிவு படுத்த உரிமை கொண்டாடுவதால், சிலர் நம்மை இழிவு படுத்திக் காட்டுகிறார்கள். நாம் யாரையும் இழிவு படுத்தக் கூடாது; நம்மை யாரும் இழிவு படுத்த ஒப்புக் கொள்ளக்கூடாது. அத்தகைய சமத்துவ நிலையே சரியான நிலை" என்று கருதினார் துடுக்குப் பிள்ளை ராமசாமி... கருத்து செயல்பட்டது.


1942ஆம் ஆண்டுவரை, திண்ணைப் பள்ளிகளிலும் 'பிரைமரி ஸ்கூல்' என்று அன்று வழங்கப்பட்ட தொடக்கப் பள்ளிகளிலும் ஒடுக்கப்பட்டவர்களின் பிள்ளைகள் மட்டுமல்லாமல் பிற்படுத்தப்பட்ட சாதியாரின் பிள்ளைகளும் கல்வி கற்பதில் பல பின்னடைவுகளையும் ஏச்சுப் பேச்சுக்களையும் அடைந்து, "நமக்குப் படிப்பே வராது!" என்று இடிந்துபோய் நொந்து வாழ்ந்த நிலையை மாற்றி 'அனைவருக்கும் கல்வி' என்ற இயக்கம் தோன்றக் காரணமாயிருந்தவர் பெரியார்.


"கோயிலுக்குள் நான் ஏன் நுழையக் கூடாது? கோயிலின் கருவறைக்குள் போய் நான் ஏன் கடவுளுக்கு வழிபாடு நிகழ்த்தக் கூடாது?" என்று ஒடுக்கப்பட்டவர்களும் பிற்படுத்தப்பட்டவர்களும் தங்களைத் தாங்களே கேட்டுக்கொண்டு இன்று நீதிமன்றத்துக்கும் சென்று வழக்காடும் அளவு மானிட உரிமை உணர்வைக் கிளறிவிட்டவர் பெரியார்.


ஏழைத் தொழிலாளர்கள் தங்கள் உழைப்புக்குத் தகுந்த கூலி கேட்கவும் உரிமையற்றுக் கிடந்த நிலையை மாற்றியவர் பெரியார். எல்லாம் தங்கள் தலைவிதி என்று அவர்கள் தங்களைத் தாங்களே தாழ்த்திக் குமைந்து கொண்டிருந்த அவலத்தை மாற்றி, "நாட்டு வளங்கள் அனைத்தும் நாட்டிலுள்ள அனைவருக்கும் சொந்தம்!" என்ற உண்மையை 1925ஆம் ஆண்டு முதலே கற்றுத் தந்து சமதர்ம சம உரிமை உணர்வைத் தழைக்கச் செய்தவர் பெரியார்.


'பங்கா' இழுப்பது, எடுபிடி வேலைகள் செய்வது போன்ற கீழ்நிலை வேலைகளைச் செய்யவே நாம் பிறந்திருக்கிறோம் என்று 1946ஆம் ஆண்டுவரையில் தாழ்வு மனப்பான்மையுடன் கிடந்தவர்களுக்கு உணர்ச்சியூட்டி, எழுத்தர் பணி முதல் உயர்நீதி மன்ற நீதிபதிப் பணி வரையில் ஒடுக்கப்பட்டவர்களுக்கும் பிற்படுத்தப்பட்டவர்களுக்கும் வந்துசேர வழிவகுத்தவர் பெரியார்.


சமுதாயம், அரசியல், பொருளியல் முதலான துறைகளிலும் நெடுங்காலமாக இழிவைச் சுமத்திவந்தவையான மூடநம்பிக்கைகள், சாதிமதப் பழக்க வழக்கங்கள், உரிமை - உடைமை - வாய்ப்புப் பெறுவதில் பேதங்கள் ஆகியவற்றின் அடிப்படைக் காரணங்களைக் கண்டறிந்தார் பெரியார். கல்லடிகளுக்கும் சொல்லடிகளுக்கும் கிஞ்சிற்றேனும் அஞ்சாமல் ஒவ்வொரு நாளும் எழுத்தாலும் பேச்சாலும் அவற்றை எடுத்துரைத்தார். வாயில்லாப் பூச்சிகளாகவும் மரத்துவிட்ட மனமுள்ளவர்களாகவும் இருந்தவர்களை மானம் மிகுந்தவர்களாக மாற்றிக் காட்டினார் பெரியார்.


அரசியல் சமவுரிமையைப் பெரியார் மிகவும் வற்புறுத்தினார். வகுப்புவாரிப் பிரதிநிதித்துவம் என்பது அந்த அந்த மதத்தவரின் - அந்த அந்த அந்தச் சாதியினரின் எண்ணிக்கை விகிதாச்சாரப்படி, அரசியல் பதவிகள் - அரசுப் பணிகள் - தொழில்துறை ஆகிய எல்லாத் துறைகளிலும் வரவேண்டும் என்று பெரியார் வலியுறுத்தினார்.


பெரியாரின் வார்த்தைகளாலேயே சொல்வதானால் "பேதமும் கவலையும் ஒழிந்த சமதர்ம சமுதாய அமைப்பை உருவாக்குவதுதான்" அவர்தம் இறுதியானதும் உறுதியானதுமான முதல்நிலைக் குறிக்கோள் ஆகும். அதற்கு உதவாதவற்றை ஒதுக்கித் தள்ளவே முனைந்தார் அவர். இயக்க ரீதியில் மக்களை அணுகிச் செயல்புரிவது ஒன்று மட்டுமே செயல் வடிவம் என்று அறிவுறுத்தியவர் பெரியார். அப்படித் தம் குறிக்கோளுக்குச் செயல்வடிவம் தரும் பொருட்டு - உட்சாதி ஒழிப்பு, வருண ஒழிப்பு, மூடநம்பிக்கை ஒழிப்பு, பெருளாதார பேத ஒழிப்பு, அரசியல் அலுவல் துறையில் நிலவும் மேற்சாதி ஆதிக்க ஒழிப்பு ஆகியவற்றுக்கான செயல் வடிவிலான திட்டங்களை அமைப்பு ரீதியாக நடைமுறைப்படுத்திட உரிய பணிகளை மேற்கொள்ளுவதையே பெரியார் வற்புறுத்தினார்.


'எப்படிப்பட்ட மனிதன் உயர்ந்தவன்?' என்ற கேள்வியைக் கேட்டுக்கொண்டு பெரியார் கூறினார்: "பணத்தால் ஒரு மனிதனை மதிப்பதென்றால் -- ரிசர்வ் பேங்கைத்தான் மதிக்க வேண்டும். படிப்பால் ஒரு மனிதனை மதிப்பதென்றால் -- பெரிய 'லைப்ரெரி'யைத்தான் மதிக்க வேண்டும். அறிவால் ஒருவனை மதிக்க வேண்டுமானால் -- 'என்சைக்ளோபீடியா', 'ரேடியோ' ஆகியவற்றை மதிக்க வேண்டும். இப்படியாக அனேகவற்றை, ஜீவனில்லாதவைகளிலும் காணலாம். ஆதலால், நாம் மனிதனை மதிப்பது, பேசுவது, நினைவுறுவது என்பவையெல்லாம் இவைகளை உத்தேசித்து அல்ல........


ஜீவ சுபாவ உணர்ச்சியான -- தன்மை உணர்ச்சியும் தன்னல உணர்ச்சியும் உள்ள மனிதன் இவற்றை (தன்னலத்தை) அலட்சியம் செய்து -- அதாவது தன்னைப் பற்றிய கவலையும், தனது மேல்வாழ்வின் தன்மை என்பதையும் அடியோடு மறந்து, மனித சமுதாய வாழ்வின் மேன்மைக்காகவே மற்ற மனித சீவன்களுக்கு இருக்க முடியாத வசதி என்னும் தன்மை, தொண்டாற்றும் சக்தி ஆகியவை இருக்கின்றன என்று கருதி -- தன்னலத்தையும் தன் மானாபிமானத்தையும் விட்டு எவன் ஒருவன் தொண்டாற்றும் பணியை வாழ்வாகக் கொண்டிருக்கிறானோ, அவன்தான் மற்ற சீவப் பிராணிகளிடமிருந்து வேறுபட்ட மனிதத் தன்மை கொண்ட மனிதனாவான். மனித உரு சீவப் பிராணி என்பதில் எந்த மனிதனை மதிப்பதானாலும், நினைவுநாள் கொண்டாடுவதானாலும் இந்தக் குணத்திற்காகத்தான் இருக்கலாமே ஒழிய வேறொன்றுக்கும் ஆக இருக்க முடியாது." கும்பகோணம் தஞ்சாவூர் திருச்சி ஆகிய ஊர்களில் 1945ஆம் ஆண்டு மார்ச் ஏப்ரல் மாதங்களில் பெரியார் இவ்வாறு மொழிந்ததைக் 'குடி அரசு' ஏடு, அதே ஆண்டு ஏப்ரல் மாதம் பதினான்காம் நாள் இவ்வாறு வெளியிட்டது.

மனிதன் முதல் முதலாக மற்றொரு மனிதனுடன் திருத்தமாகத் தொடர்புகொள்ள உருவாக்கிக் கொண்டது மொழி அல்லவா? அப்படி உருவான தமிழின் மேன்மைகள் குறித்து மிகவும் விரிவாகக் கும்பகோணம் அரசினர் கலைக் கல்லூரியிலும், சென்னை பச்சையப்பன் கல்லூரியிலும் விரிவுரைகள் ஆற்றியுள்ளார் பெரியார். தமிழ்மொழி குறித்து அவர் கூறியதாவது: "தமிழ் மிகுதியும் நம் முற்போக்குக்கு ஏற்றபடி செம்மைப்படுத்தப்பட வேண்டும். மக்கள் கற்க மேலும் இலகுவாக்கப்பட வேண்டும். பயனுள்ள பரந்த மொழியாக்கப்பட வேண்டும். "இன்றைய தமிழ் மிகவும் பழைய மொழி, வெகுகாலமாகச் சீர்திருத்தம் செய்யப்படாதது, மற்ற மொழிகளைப் போல திருத்தப்படாதது" என்பதான இவைகள் ஒரு மொழிக்குக் குறையாகுமே தவிர, பெருமையாகாது என்பேன். ஏன்? பழமை எல்லாம் அநேகமாக மாற்றமாகி இருக்கிறது; திருத்தப்பட்டிருக்கிறது. மாற்றுவதும் திருத்துவதும் யாருக்கும் எதற்கும் இழிவாகவோ குற்றமாகவோ, ஆகிவிடாது. மேன்மையடையவும், காலத்தோடு கடந்து செல்லவும், எதையும் மாற்றவும் திருத்தவும் வேண்டும். பிடிவாதமாய்ப் பாட்டி காலத்திய, பண்டைக் காலத்திய பெருமைகளைப் பேசிக்கொண்டிருந்தால், கழிபட்டுப் போவோம்; பின்தங்கிப் போவோம். மொழி என்பது உலகப் போட்டிப் போராட்டத்திற்கு ஒரு போர்க்கருவியாகும். போர்க்கருவிகள் காலத்திற்கேற்ப மாற்றப்பட வேண்டும். அவ்வப்போது கண்டுபிடித்துக் கைக்கொள்ள வேண்டும்." இவ்வாறு கூறியதோடு விட்டுவிடாமல் திட்டவட்டமான தமிழ் எழுத்துச் சீர்திருத்தத்தை முன்வைத்தார். அதன்படித்தான் இப்பொழுது அச்சகங்களிலும் தட்டெழுத்துப் பொறிகளிலும் கணினிகளிலும் தமிழ் பயன்படுத்தப் பெறுகிறது. கல்வி நிலையங்களிலும் பாடப் புத்தகங்களிலும் பெரியார் வழங்கிய எழுத்துச் சீர்திருத்தமே செயல்பட்டு வருகின்றது.

"பெரியார் செய்த தொண்டுகளில் மிகவும் தலைசிறந்தது பெண்ணடிமை நீக்கப் பாடுபட்டதுதான்" என்று மனோரஞ்சிதம் அம்மையார் 1982ஆம் ஆண்டிலேயே எழுதினார். நம் நாட்டில் பெண்களைத் திருமணம் என்ற பெயரால் அடிமைகள் போல விற்பது முன்பு மிக அதிகமாக இருந்தது. இராகு காலம் சகுனம் பார்ப்பதிலும், நாள் கிழமை பார்த்து நடப்பதிலும், ஒரு ஆண்டில் 108 பண்டிகை கொண்டாடுவதிலும் நம் பெண்களின் தொன்றுதொட்டு வந்த பழக்கங்கள். விரதம் பூஜை புனஸ்காரங்களில் நம் பெண்களுக்கு நிகர் யாருமே இல்லை என்று கூறலாம். அந்நாளில் படிப்பறிவு இல்லாததும், பகுத்தறிந்து பார்க்க இயலாமல் இருந்ததும், சொன்னதைப் பெரியவர்கள் கூறினார்கள் என்றதால் காரணம் கேட்கக் கூடாது என்றெல்லாம் ஆமைகளாக அடங்கிக் கிடக்க நேர்ந்ததும், இயற்கையான பலவீனமும் சேர்ந்து பெண் அடிமையானாள். இந்த நாடு உண்மையிலேயே முன்னேற வேண்டுமென்றால் பெண்ணடிமை தீர வேண்டும் என்று கருதினார். "பெண் ஏன் அடிமையானாள்?" என்று சிந்தித்துக் காரணங்களோடு எடுத்து எழுதினார். நம் பெண்கள் எதையும் சிந்தித்துப் பார்க்கும் திறமை பெற வேண்டும் என்று அயராது முயன்றார். பெண்ணுக்குச் சொத்துரிமை வேண்டும் என்று பாடுபட்டார். சமுதாயத்தில் பெண் தலைநிமிர்ந்து நிற்க ஆணும் பெண்ணும் சமமான தகுதி பெற பெண்ணுக்கும் சொத்து பகிர்ந்தளிக்கப் பெறல் வேண்டும் என்று தெளிவாக எடுத்துரைத்தார்.


சீர்திருத்தத் திருமண முறையைக் கொண்டு வந்து சூழ்நிலைகளால் பலிகடா ஆக்கப்பட்ட பெண்கள் மீண்டும் நல்வாழ்வுபெற வழிவகுத்தார். பெண்களைப் பெருமைப்படுத்தும் விதத்தில் 'வாழ்க்கை ஒப்பந்தம்' என்று கொண்டு வந்து திருமணத்தில் பெண்ணடிமையை ஒழித்தார்.


பெண் குழந்தைகளையும் ஆண் குழந்தைகளையும் உயர்வு தாழ்வு கற்பிக்காமல் வளர்க்க வேண்டும் என்று அறிவுறுத்தினார். பெண்கள் 'நகை மாட்டும் ஸ்டாண்டு'களாக மட்டுமே இருக்கக் கூடாது என்றார். தாய்ப்பாலோடு மூடநம்பிக்கையையும் சேர்த்துக் குழந்தையின் சிந்தனையை நம் தாய்மார்கள் முடப்படுத்தும் போக்கைக் கண்டித்தார். அறிவியல் முறையில் நம் நாடு முன்னேற வேண்டுமென்றால் நம் பெண்கள் பகுத்தறிவு பெற்று சுயமரியாதையுடன் நாட்டிற்குத் தொண்டு செய்யும் வீராங்கனைகளாக விளங்கவேண்டும் என்று திருமண மேடைகள்தோறும் முழங்கினார்.


அவர் முழக்கம் கேட்டு, "பெண்கள் வெளியில் வருவதே தவறு" என்று ஆண்களால் விதிக்கப்பட்ட அந்நாளில், பெரியாருடன் பகுத்தறிவுப் பிரச்சாரம் செய்ய மூவலூர் இராமாமிர்தம் அம்மையார், 'பெரியார்' என்ற பட்டம் தந்த நாராயணி அம்மையார், அலமேலு அப்பாத்துரை அம்மையார் முதலாக எத்தனையோ தாய்மார்கள் முன்வந்தார்கள். இந்தி எதிர்ப்பில் சிறை சென்றார்கள். பெரியார், தான் என்ன சொன்னாரோ அதைத் தம் வாழ்விலும் கடைப்பிடிப்பவர் என்பதற்கேற்ப, தம் துணைவியார் நாகம்மையாரையும் தமக்கை கண்ணம்மாவையும் பின்னாளில் மணியம்மையாரையும் பொதுவாழ்விலும் சுயமரியாதை இயக்கப் பணியிலும் பெரியார் ஈடுபடுத்தினார்.


அந்தக் காலத்திலேயே குடும்பக்கட்டுப்பாட்டையும் அரசுப்பணிகளில் பெண்களுக்குச் சமவாய்ப்புத் தரப்பட வேண்டும் என்பதையும் வற்புறுத்தியவர் பெரியாரே ஆவார். குழந்தைகளைச் சீர்திருத்த முறையில் ஒழுக்கக் கட்டுப்பாட்டுடன் வளர்த்து ஆளாக்கினால் எதிர்காலத்தில் சாதிப் பாகுபாடு அறவே அழிந்துவிடும் என்று பெண்களுக்கு அறிவுறுத்தினார். பிள்ளைகள் வளர்ந்த பின்பு சுயமரியாதை முறையில்தான் திருமணங்கள் செய்துவைக்க வேண்டும் என்றும் மொழிந்தார்.


மக்கள் அனைவரும் எந்த வகை வேறுபாடும் இன்றித் தன்மானத்துடன் வாழப் பகுத்தறிவிப் பணியை வாழ்நாளெல்லாம் செய்த பெரியார், தனது சுகத்தையே முதலில் புறந்தள்ளினார். வசதியாகச் சாய்வு நாற்காலிகள் - 'சோபா'க்களில் அமர்ந்து கொள்ளுவதையும் தவிர்த்தார். "சுகம் என்ற ஒவ்வொரு பழக்க வழக்கமும் எனக்கு வெறுப்பாகிக் கொண்டும், சுகம் இல்லாவிடில் அதனால் ஒருவிதக் கஷ்டமும் இன்றியும் இருக்கிறது" என்று தெரிவித்தார் பெரியார்.

நன்றி :திண்ணை

[devapriya]

[tscii:2fe72d1b6e]I Quote


பெரியாரின் தமிழ்குறித்த விமர்சனங்கள் பெற்றவர்கள் பிள்ளையை கண்டிப்பது போன்று அக்கரைகளினால் எழுந்த கோபமேயன்றி அது துவேசம் இல்லை.


Friend can you Justify these bluffs

திருக்குறள் ஒரு கெட்ட நாற்றம் [/size]
வள்ளுவர் குறளையும், அந்தப்படியே அப்போது பகுத்தறிவுக்கு ஏற்றதல்ல என்று கண்டித்து வந்தேன். எல்லாவற்றையும் குறை சொல்லும்போது பலர் என்னிடம், ‘எல்லாம் போய்விட்டால் நமக்கு எதுதான் நூல்?’ என்று கேட்பார்கள். நான், இங்கே இருக்கிற மலத்தினால் கெட்ட நாற்றம் வீசுகிறது. அதை எடுத்து விடு’ என்று கூறினால் ‘அந்த இடத்தில் என்ன வைப்பது என்றா கேட்பது..?” என்று பதில் கூறுவேன்.- விடுதலை(1.6.50)யில் பெரியார்
[/tscii:2fe72d1b6e]

[joe]

[tscii:e3850156a3]I Quote


பெரியாரின் தமிழ்குறித்த விமர்சனங்கள் பெற்றவர்கள் பிள்ளையை கண்டிப்பது போன்று அக்கரைகளினால் எழுந்த கோபமேயன்றி அது துவேசம் இல்லை.


Friend can you Justify these bluffs

திருக்குறள் ஒரு கெட்ட நாற்றம் [/size]
வள்ளுவர் குறளையும், அந்தப்படியே அப்போது பகுத்தறிவுக்கு ஏற்றதல்ல என்று கண்டித்து வந்தேன். எல்லாவற்றையும் குறை சொல்லும்போது பலர் என்னிடம், ‘எல்லாம் போய்விட்டால் நமக்கு எதுதான் நூல்?’ என்று கேட்பார்கள். நான், இங்கே இருக்கிற மலத்தினால் கெட்ட நாற்றம் வீசுகிறது. அதை எடுத்து விடு’ என்று கூறினால் ‘அந்த இடத்தில் என்ன வைப்பது என்றா கேட்பது..?” என்று பதில் கூறுவேன்.- விடுதலை(1.6.50)யில் பெரியார்
[/tscii:e3850156a3]


பழமைவாதத்தை தூக்கிப்பிடிக்கும் பழங்கால புராண ,இதிகாசங்களைப் போல திருக்குறளும் நடைமுறைக்கு ஒவ்வாத பழமைவாதத்தை தூக்கி பிடிக்கும் ஒரு நூல் தான் ,அதில் சமுதாய விடுதலைக்கான கருத்து எதுவும் இல்லை என்பது பெரியாரின் கருத்து .அந்த கருத்தோடு எல்லோரும் ஒத்துப் போக வேண்டும் என்று அவசியம் இல்லை .பெரியார் தொண்டர்களே அதில் வேறுபட்டிருக்கிறார்கள் .வள்ளுவர் கோட்டமும் ,குமரியில் வள்ளுவனுக்கு சிலையும் கண்ட கலைஞரே பெரியார் சீடர் தான்.

பெரியார் ஒன்றும் குறையே இல்லாத தேவதூதன் அல்ல .இயேசுவைப்போல ,கிருஷ்ணனைப் போல ,முகமதுவைப்போல இறைதூதராக அவரைக் கருதிக்கொண்டு ,அவரில் ஒரு குறைகண்டு விட்டாலும் அவர் தேவதூதன் அல்ல என்று நிரூபித்ததாகி விடும் என்று கருத வழியில்லை .பெரியாரே சொல்லுகிறார் "நான் சொல்லுவதை நீங்கள் அப்படியே ஏற்றுக்கொள்ள வேண்டும் என்று அவசியம் இல்லை .அதை உங்கள் பகுத்தறிவு கொண்டு சீர் தூக்கிப் பார்த்து அது உங்கள் அறிவுக்கு ஒத்து வந்தால் ஏற்றுக்கொள்ளுங்கள் ".

பெரியார் சொன்ன சில கருத்துக்களில் அவருடைய சீடர்களுக்கே கருத்து வேற்றுமை வந்ததுண்டு .எதிர் கருத்துக்கள் சொல்லப்பட்டதும் உண்டு .பெரியார் சொன்னதையெல்லாம் கண்ணை மூடிக் கொண்டு ஏற்றுக்கொள்ள வேண்டிய அவசியம் பெரியார் அபிமானிகளுக்கு இருந்ததில்லை .பெரியாரும் அவ்வாறு வலியுறுத்தியதில்லை .பெரியார் ஒரு சாதாரண மனிதர் .அவரிடம் சில குறைகளை கண்டு பிடித்து விட்டதால் ,பெரியாரின் மற்றெல்லா கருத்துக்களையோ ,சமூகப் பணிகளையோ மறைத்துவிட முடியாது ..ஏனென்றால் அவர் ஒன்றும் தேவ தூதன் அல்ல.

[devapriya]

[tscii:876428ad33]தமிழ் மண் தந்த கலாசார அதிர்வுகள் - வாஸ்ந்தி

ஒரு செய்திப் பத்திரிகை ஆசிரியையாக நான் கால் வைத்த போது, அச்சுப் பிழை திருத்துபவருக்குத் தெரிந்த சில அடிப்படை விஷயங்கள்கூட, எனக்குத் தெரிந்திருக்கவில்லை. எனது ஆங்கில அறிவில் அபார நம்பிக்கை இருந்தும், galley', 'form wise', 'slug', 'caption', 'format' என்ற வார்த்தைகள் புரியாமல், இரண்டு நாட்கள் தடுமாறினேன். காலை ஐந்து மணிக்கு எழுந்து, இரவு ஒன்பதரை, பத்துக்குப் படுக்கப் போகும் வழக்கமுள்ள நான், இரவு ஒரு மணி, இரண்டு மணிவரை அலுவலகத்தில், வாரத்தில் இரண்டு நாட்களாவது பணிபுரியவேண்டியிருந்தது. ஓரிருமுறை அலுவலகத்திலேயே தங்கி, மறுநாள் ஒன்பது மணிவரை வேலை பார்க்கவும் நேர்ந்தது. தினமுமே வீட்டிற்குத் திரும்ப இரவு எட்டு, எட்டரை ஆகிவிடும்.

வீட்டிற்காக, சென்னை முழுவதும் அலைந்து, பெசன்ட் நகரில், அமைதியான கலா«க்ஷத்ரா காலனியில், ஏகாந்தமாக இருந்த ஒரு இரண்டாவது மாடி வீட்டை வாடகைக்கு எடுத்திருந்தேன். என் ஒண்டி ஆளுக்கு, எதற்கு அத்தனை பெரிய வீடு என்று வீட்டைப் பார்த்தவர்கள் ஆச்சரியப்பட்டார்கள். வீட்டையட்டி முகப்பில், வீட்டை விடப் பெரிய டெரெஸ் இருந்தது. பக்கத்து வீட்டு மொட்டை மாடியிலிருந்து, யார் வேண்டுமானாலும் குதித்து வரலாம் என்று, எனது அலுவலக நண்பர் எச்சரித்தார். ‘‘இந்த வீட்டில் தனியாக இருக்க பயமாக இல்லையா’’ என்று நிறைய பேர் கேட்டார்கள். நிச்சயமாக இருக்கவில்லை. உண்மையில் அத்தனை ஆண்டுகள், கணவன், குழந்தைகள் என்று மற்றவர்களுக்காகவே வாழ்ந்து, அவர்களது தேவை பற்றின சிந்தனைகளின் ஆக்கிரமிப்பிலேயே வாழ்ந்தவளுக்குத் தனியாக வாழ்வது, மிக உற்சாகமாக இருந்தது. திடீரென்று தளைகள் விடுபட்டு, அகண்ட பிரபஞ்சத்தை எனதாக்கிக் கொண்டது போல மனசு விரிந்தது; கணவரின் யோசனை இல்லாமல், பிள்ளைகளின் கவலையில்லாமல், எத்தகைய சுதந்திரம் அது! என் இஷ்டம்போல் வீட்டை வைத்துக்கொள்ள முடிந்தது; அத்தனை வேலைக்கு நடுவிலும் மொட்டை மாடியில் பிரமாண்ட தோட்டம் போட முடிந்தது; புத்தகம் படிக்க முடிந்தது. எனக்கு மிகவும் பிடித்த வீடு அது. மூன்று படுக்கை அறைகள் கொண்ட, நல்ல வெளிச்சமுள்ள விசாலமான வீடு. நடுநிசியில் வீடு திரும்பும் போது, அது எனக்குத் தனிமை உணர்வைத் தரவில்லை. மனதளவில் எனக்குத் தேவைப்பட்ட வெளியின் அடையாளமாக, அதன் விசாலம் என்னைக் கவர்ந்தது.

ஆனால் எனக்குத் தனிமை உணர்வை ஏற்படுத்திய விஷயங்கள் வேறு. விரைவிலேயே, சென்னைவாசிகள், அத்தனை சுலபமாக புதிதாக வருபவரிடம் சிநேகிதம் காட்டமாட்டார்கள் என்று எனக்குப் பட்டது. சென்னைக்கு வந்ததும், ஒரு மாருதி 800 வாங்கி நானே ஓட்டிக்கொண்டிருந்தேன். தனியாக வசிக்கும், நட்ட நடுநிசியில் காரை ஓட்டிக்கொண்டு வீடு திரும்பும் ஒரு பெண்மணியை, எங்கள் கட்டடத்தில் இருந்த குடித்தனக்காரர்கள் அதுவரை கண்டிருக்கவில்லை என்று நினைக்கிறேன். என்னைப்பற்றின, என்ன கற்பனைகள் அவர்களுக்கு இருந்தன என்று, எனக்குத் தெரியாது. எட்டரை மணி அளவில், இரவு வீடு திரும்பும் நாட்களில், அவர்கள் ஜன்னல் வழியாகப் பார்த்துப், பிறகு தங்களை மறைத்துக் கொள்வார்கள். நான் அவர்களிடம் என்னை அறிமுகப்படுத்திக் கொண்டும், யாருமே, ‘‘தனியாக இருக்கிறீர்களே, உங்களுக்கு ஏதேனும் உதவி தேவையா’’ என்று கேட்கவில்லை. மாறாக என்னை சந்தேகக் கண்ணுடனேயே பார்த்ததாகத் தோன்றிற்று. ‘‘எலக்ட்ரிஷன் யாரையாவது தெரியுமா’’ என்று கேட்டால்கூட, 15 வருஷங்களாக அங்கிருந்தவர்கள், ‘‘தெரியாது’’ என்பார்கள்.

இது தில்லி அனுபவத்துக்கு முற்றிலும் மாறாக இருந்ததால், அதிர்ச்சி அளித்தது. நான், என் கணவருடன் இருந்திருந்தால் கதை வேறாக இருந்திருக்கும். தனியாக ஒரு பெண் வாழ்வது, அவர்களால் ஜீரணிக்கமுடியாத ஒன்று என்று எனக்குப் புரிந்தது. மூன்று ஆண்டுகள் கழித்து, என்னுடைய தாய் என்னுடன் வசிக்க வந்த பிறகுதான், ஒரு சராசரி பெண்ணாக என்னை அவர்கள் நினைக்க ஆரம்பித்தார்கள்.

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தொழில்ரீதியில் நேரிடையான தாக்குதல்கள், வேலையில் சேர்ந்த உடனேயே ஏற்பட்டது. அந்த காலகட்டத்தில், ‘இந்தியா டுடே’ தமிழ்ப் பதிப்பு, அதிகபட்சம் ஆங்கில இதழிலிருந்து மொழிபெயர்க்கப்பட்டகட்டுரைக஼br />?ைக் கொண்டதாகவே இருந்தது. அப்போதுதான் நான் கால் வைத்திருந்ததால், எனது அதிகார எல்லைகளைப் பற்றி எனக்குக் குழப்பமாக இருந்தது. தில்லி அலுவலகம் சொன்னபடி, மற்ற மொழி ஆசிரியர்கள் நடந்து கொண்டார்கள். மாற்றுக்கருத்துச் சொல்லும் வழக்கம் இருக்கவில்லை. ஆங்கிலத்தில் வரும் கட்டுரைகளை மொழிபெயர்க்கும்போது (அவை ஆங்கிலப் பதிப்பில் வெளியாகிவிடுவதால்) நிச்சயமாக வரிகளை மாற்றவோ, திருத்தவோ உரிமை கிடையாது. ஆங்கில இதழுக்கு, அப்போது சென்னைக் கிளையில், ப்ரகாஷ் சுவாமி நிருபராக இருந்தார். நான் போய்ச் சேர்ந்த இரு வாரத்தில், அவர், தி.மு.க. தலைவரின் இரு மனைவிகளும் தனித்தனியாகக் கட்சி அரசியலில், தங்களின் அதிகாரத்தைச் செலுத்துவதாக ஒரு கட்டுரையை ஆங்கில இதழுக்கு எழுதியிருந்தார். அந்தக் கட்டுரைக்கும் எனக்கும் துளியும் சம்பந்தமில்லை. தமிழகத்து அரசியல் சம்பந்தப்பட்ட கட்டுரை என்பதால், அதைத் தமிழ் இதழில் போடவேண்டிய கட்டாயத்தில் இருந்தேன். அதைப் பக்கமாக்குவதற்குமுன் வந்திருந்த ‘ரீணீறீறீமீஹ்யில்’ படித்துப் பார்த்தபோது, ஒரு வரியை நீக்கிவிடலாம் என்று முடிவு செய்தேன். கனிமொழியின் முதல் திருமணம் விவாகரத்தான சமயம் அது. ஆனால், செய்தி வெளியில் வந்திருக்கவில்லை. கட்டுரையிலிருந்த, ‘விவாகரத்தான மகள் கனிமொழி' என்ற சொற்கள் சம்பந்தப்பட்டவரை புண்படுத்தலாம் என்று நினைத்து, அவற்றை நீக்கிவிட்டு 'பக்கம்' செய்ய அனுப்பிவிட்டேன். அன்று ‘டெபுடி காப்பி எடிட்டர்’ இருந்தார். இறுதியாக பக்கத்தைக் கவனித்து அச்சுக்கு அனுப்பும் வேலை அவருடையது. மறுநாள், அச்சாகிவிட்ட பக்கங்கள் எனது பார்வைக்கு வந்த போது திடுக்கிட்டேன். நான் நீக்கியிருந்த சொற்கள் அச்சாகியிருந்தன. அன்று மாலை ‘டெபுடி காப்பி எடிட்டர்’ வந்தபோது, ‘‘நான் அடித்திருந்த சொற்கள் எப்படி வந்தன’’ என்று கேட்டேன். ‘‘பக்கம் ஆகி வந்த போது நான்கு சொற்கள் தேவைப்பட்டன; அதனால் அவற்றைச் சேர்த்துக் கொண்டேன்’’ என்றார். நான் ஏன் அவற்றை விலக்க நினைத்தேன் என்று அவரிடம் சொல்லவில்லை. எப்படியும் ஆங்கில பதிப்பில் வந்த விவரம்தானே என்றிருப்பார்.

ஆனால், கட்டுரை தமிழ்ப் பதிப்பில் வெளியானதும், ஒரு பூகம்பம் வெடிக்கும் என்று நான் எதிர்பார்க்கவில்லை. ‘முரசொலி’ ஞாயிறு மலர் பல பக்கங்களை எனக்காக ஒதுக்கியது. என்னை, நான் நினைக்கவே கூசும் அளவுக்கு, 'பெண் ஆசிரியை, அரசியலுக்கே வராத தலைவரின் வீட்டுப் பெண்களைப் பற்றி தரக்குறைவாக எழுதியதற்காக' வசைபாடி தூற்றிற்று; எனது ஒழுக்கத்தை, நேர்மையைக் கேள்வி கேட்டது; எனது சாதியைக் குறிப்பிட்டது; வாஸந்தி என்ற பெயரை 'வாந்தி' என்று எழுதிற்று. ‘குங்குமம்’ இதழில் வசை தொடர்ந்தது. கேள்வி_பதில் பகுதியில், தானே ஒரு கேள்வியைப் போட்டு, 'வாஸந்தியை 'வா' என்று சந்திக்கு இழுக்க எத்தனை நேரம் ஆகும்?' என்று, பதிலையும் போட்டது. இதில் வேடிக்கை என்னவென்றால், கட்டுரை எழுதிய ப்ரகாஷ் சுவாமி, எந்தக் கண்டனத்துக்கும் உள்ளாகவில்லை. இந்த தாக்குதல் எனக்கு மிகப் பெரிய கலாசார அதிர்ச்சியை ஏற்படுத்திற்று.

தமிழ் நாட்டில் ஒரு பெண்ணைத் தாக்கவேண்டுமானால், ஆண்களின் மிகச் சுலபமான ஆயுதம், அவளது ஒழுக்கத்தைக் குறை கூறுவது என்று, பின் வரும் ஆண்டுகளில் புரிந்து போனது. இது அந்த சமூகத்தின் பலவீனமே தவிர, எனது குறையல்ல என்கிற தெளிவு எனக்கு இருந்ததால், அத்தகைய அவதூறுப் பிரசுரங்களை கண்டு கொள்ளாமல் இருக்கப் பழகிக் கொண்டேன். ஆனால், ஆரம்பத்தில் அது ஏற்படுத்திய அதிர்விலிருந்து மீள்வது, சுலபமாக இருக்கவில்லை. அடுத்த சில மாதங்களில், கலைஞர் கருணாநிதியைப் பேட்டி காண வேண்டி வந்தபோது, நேரம் கொடுக்க அவர் சுலபத்தில் சம்மதிக்கவில்லை. ஆனால் கடைசியில் ஒத்துக் கொண்டவர், என்னைக் கண்டதும், ‘முரசொலி’யில் தன்னைக் கேட்காமலே சின்னக்குத்தூசி அந்தக் கட்டுரையை எழுதிவிட்டதாகச் சொன்னார். அவரது விளக்கம் எனக்கு சமாதானமாகவில்லை என்றாலும், அவரது அணுகுமுறை இறுக்கத்தைத் தளர்த்திற்று. பத்திரிகைக்காக அவரைச் சந்திக்க நேர்ந்த பல சந்தர்ப்பங்களுக்குப் பிறகு, கலைஞர் அவர்களிடம் நெருக்கமும் நட்பும் ஏற்பட்டுவிட்டது. பத்திரிகைகளில் வருவதை விடாமல் படித்து, அதை மறுத்தோ, சிலாகித்தோ உடனுக்குடன் பேசும் அவரது இயல்பு, என்னை ஈர்த்தது. அவரை விமர்சித்து எழுதுவதையும் பொருட்படுத்தாமல், தொடர்ந்து நான் எழுதுவதை அவர் வாசித்து அபிப்பிராயம் சொன்னது, அவரிடம் மரியாதையை ஏற்படுத்திற்று. பேட்டிகளில் பயமில்லாமல் கேள்வி கேட்க முடிந்தது. எந்தச் சந்தர்ப்பத்திலும் அவரது விடைகளில் தெறித்த கூர்மை, உற்சாகத்தை அளித்தது. ஜெயலலிதாவுக்கும் பத்திரிகை உலகுக்கும் இடையே துளைக்கமுடியாத இரும்புத்திரை இருந்ததால் , இரு தலைவர்களிடையே இருந்த அணுகுமுறை வேற்றுமையில் கலைஞரே நெருங்கக் கூடிய சாத்தியம் கொண்டிருந்தார். அதுவே அவரது பலம்.

அப்போது ஜெயலலிதாவின் ஆட்சி. முன்பு அவர் நாடாளுமன்ற உறுப்பினராக தில்லி வந்திருந்த சமயத்தில், நான் அவரை ஒரு ஹிந்தி பத்திரிகைக்காக பேட்டி கண்டபோது, அவர் சொல்லியிருந்தார்: ‘‘தில்லியிலே உட்கார்ந்து தமிழ்நாட்டைப் பத்திப் பேசாதீங்க. தமிழ் நாட்டுக்கு வந்து பாருங்க. அப்பத்தான் ஜனங்க எம்.ஜி.ஆரை ஏன் தெய்வமா நினைக்கிறாங்க என்று புரியும்". இடையில் எம்.ஜி.ஆர். இறந்து போனார். நான் தமிழ்நாட்டுக்கு வந்த சமயத்தில், அவரது வாரிசாக ஜெயலலிதா ஆட்சிக்கு வந்திருந்தது, எதேச்சையான நிகழ்வாக இருக்கமுடியாது என்று கற்பித்துக் கொள்வது, சுவாரஸ்யமாக இருந்தது. அன்றும் சரி, இன்றும் சரி, அவருடைய பேட்டி கிடைத்தால் பத்திரிகையாளருக்கு ஜாக் பாட் வெற்றி கிடைப்பதுபோல. இதுவும் வேறு எந்த மாநிலத்திலும் கேள்விப்பட்டிராத ஒன்று. சென்னைக்கு வந்தபிறகு, அவருக்கு முந்தைய சந்திப்பை நினைவு கூர்ந்து, அவரைச் சந்திக்கவும், ‘இந்தியா டுடே’வுக்கு பேட்டி எடுக்கவும், அனுமதியும் அவகாசமும் கேட்டிருந்தேன். ஒன்றல்ல, இரண்டல்ல, பல கடிதங்கள்; ஃபாக்ஸ்கள், தொலைபேசி தொடர்புகள்; எதற்கும், எதன் மூலமும், எந்தப் பதிலும் இல்லை. கிணற்றில் போட்ட கல்லாய் அமைந்தது ஒவ்வொரு முயற்சியும். அவரைத் தாக்கி நான் எழுதிய, பத்திகளையும், கட்டுரைகளையும்கூட அவர் கண்டு கொண்டதாகத் தெரியவில்லை. அவருடைய அமைச்சர்கள்தான் தில்லி அலுவலகத்துக்கு அவ்வப்போது என்னைப் பற்றி புகார் செய்வார்கள். மித மிஞ்சிய நிராசையிலும் எரிச்சலிலும் எனக்கு மிக ஆச்சரியமாக இருந்தது. எப்படிப்பட்ட பெண் அவர்? ஏன் இப்படிப்பட்ட இரும்பு வளையத்தைத் தன்னைச் சுற்றிப் போட்டுக் கொள்கிறார்? மகாராணி போன்ற பாவனையை கட்சிக்குள்ளும் வளர்த்துக் கொள்வதன் பின்னிருக்கும் மனோவியல் காரணங்கள் என்ன? தமிழகத்து ஆணாதிக்க அரசியல் சூழலில், அவர் தமக்கு வேண்டுமென்றே போட்டுக்கொள்ளும் ஆணவக் கவசமா? அவரை தெய்வம் என்று வர்ணித்த கட்சிக்காரர்களின் செய்கைகளை 'கழகக் கண்மணிகளின் ஆர்வக்கோளாறு' என்று விளக்குவதில் ஏதோ வக்கிரம் ஒளிந்திருந்தது. ‘ஆண் உலகமே வா, மண்டியிடு... காலில் விழு...’

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அந்தத் தமிழ்ப் புத்தாண்டையட்டி, நான் சென்னைக்கு வருவதற்கு முன், தில்லியில் இருந்தபடி தயாரித்த ‘இந்தியா டுடே’ தமிழ்ப் பதிப்பின் முதல் இலக்கிய மலர் வெளி வந்தது. அதுவரை தமிழில் அத்தகைய கலை நேர்த்தியுடன் இலக்கிய மலர் வந்ததில்லை என்ற பாராட்டை அது பெற்றது. அன்று பிரபலமாக இருந்த பல மூத்த, இளம் எழுத்தாளர்களின் படைப்புகள் அதில் இருந்தன. இலக்கிய விமர்சனக் கட்டுரைகளும் இருந்தன. தில்லியில் எனக்குப் பரிச்சயமான இலக்கிய விமர்சகர் வெங்கட் சுவாமிநாதனை, ஒரு கட்டுரை எழுதச் சொல்லியிருந்தேன். அவரது கட்டுரையில் அவர் சொன்ன கருத்துக்கள், அவருடைய சொந்தக் கருத்துக்கள். சுயேட்சையாகக் கருத்து சொல்ல அவருக்கு உரிமை உண்டு. கருத்துச் சுதந்திரம், எழுத்துச் சுதந்திரம் ஆகிய விஷயங்களில் தீவிர நம்பிக்கை கொண்ட எனக்கு, அவரது கட்டுரையை அப்படியே வெளியிடுவதில் தயக்கம் ஏற்படவில்லை. தமிழ் இலக்கியப் போக்கை ஆய்வு செய்த அவர், ‘திராவிட இயக்கங்களால் இலக்கியத்துக்கு பாதகமே தவிர, ஆக்கபூர்வமான விளைவு இல்லை’ என்ற பொருள்பட எழுதியிருந்தார். தமிழ் நாட்டில் ஜாதி பற்றிய ஆவேசப் பேச்சுக்கள், மனிதாபிமானத்தின் காரணத்தால் விளைவதல்ல. தான் தேடும் வேறு சுய ஆதாயங்களை மறைக்கப் பயன் படும் பாதுகாப்புக் கவசம்தான் ஜாதி எதிர்ப்பு ஆவேசப் பேச்சுக்கள். இதுவரை திராவிட கலாசார 60 வருட கால இயக்கம், ஒரு இலக்கியப் படைப்பைக் கூட, கலை வெளிப்பாட்டைக்கூட தர இயலாது போனது, அதன் பொய்மைக்கு நிரூபணம்.... எதிர்ப்புச் சக்தியாக இருக்கவேண்டிய அறிவார்ந்த சிறுபான்மை இலக்கியச் சூழல், பெரும்பான்மை அரசியல் சூழலில் தன்னை ஐக்கியப்படுத்திக்கொண்டுவிட௼br />?ட அவலத்தை இன்று காண்கிறோம்" என்று பட்டவர்த்தனமாக அவர் எழுதியது, பலரை ஆவேசப்படுத்திவிட்டது. ஆனால், அந்த ஆவேசம் மிகக் கேவலமான பரிமாணம் கொண்டதாக இருக்கும் என்று நான் நினைத்திருக்கவில்லை. எப்படியும் அத்தகைய பயங்கர எதிர்ப்பை, அன்றைய எனது ஞான சூன்யத்தில் &#296

[joe]

Devapriya,
I don't understand what is the relavance of the above article posted by you with the topic here :roll:

[Devar Magan]

Periyar-ai pathi thappa pesinaal, athu kevalam.. periyar is a greattttttttttttttttttt man.....

now i am going to prepare an anti-brahmin article and post it here...

moderators, please be ready..

[Billgates]

Going through the sequence of posts, I get a feeling like Mr. Joe is a staunch EVR supporter . He will go all out in support of his extinct , defunct theories & may even ban other hubbers if they talk something about EVR. Sad.

Let me also support EVR now.

EVR is a great human being. Unbiased man. :D

[pizzalot]

Periyar is a God-send. He could even be an incarnation of Vishnu. lol. Just kidding.

Looks like he is still a force to reckon in TN. Lot of supporters for him. But how are some politicians able to garland him and yet at the same time make anti-ramsethu project rhetoric ? All along I thought Periyar=anti-god.

Can someone give the hard statistics and "prove" Periyar's influence in the State's growth was positive ? Like before/after scenerio comparisons ? Like comparing TN ranks with other states ? Like a Objective analysis or something ?

[thamizhvaanan]

தமிழ் இலக்கியப் போக்கை ஆய்வு செய்த அவர், ‘திராவிட இயக்கங்களால் இலக்கியத்துக்கு பாதகமே தவிர, ஆக்கபூர்வமான விளைவு இல்லை’ என்ற பொருள்பட எழுதியிருந்தார். தமிழ் நாட்டில் ஜாதி பற்றிய ஆவேசப் பேச்சுக்கள், மனிதாபிமானத்தின் காரணத்தால் விளைவதல்ல. தான் தேடும் வேறு சுய ஆதாயங்களை மறைக்கப் பயன் படும் பாதுகாப்புக் கவசம்தான் ஜாதி எதிர்ப்பு ஆவேசப் பேச்சுக்கள். இதுவரை திராவிட கலாசார 60 வருட கால இயக்கம், ஒரு இலக்கியப் படைப்பைக் கூட, கலை வெளிப்பாட்டைக்கூட தர இயலாது போனது, அதன் பொய்மைக்கு நிரூபணம்.... எதிர்ப்புச் சக்தியாக இருக்கவேண்டிய அறிவார்ந்த சிறுபான்மை இலக்கியச் சூழல், பெரும்பான்மை அரசியல் சூழலில் தன்னை ஐக்கியப்படுத்திக்கொண்டுவிட௼br />?ட அவலத்தை இன்று காண்கிறோம்" என்று பட்டவர்த்தனமாக அவர் எழுதியது, பலரை ஆவேசப்படுத்திவிட்டது.I dont know what sort of responses came for this peice of trash, but to say that Dravida Iyakkam has been damaging to the cause of literature is absolutely ludicrous. On the contrary, the dravidian and tamilian ideologies were at the helm of Tamil literature renaissance throughout the 20th century.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but when one passes his opinion as a fact, it deserves the scrutiny and the corresponding critism. No two ways about that. When someone passes hypocritical statements under the cover of expert opinion, should it still be respected? :huh:

[thamizhvaanan]

Can someone give the hard statistics and "prove" Periyar's influence in the State's growth was positive ? Like before/after scenerio comparisons ? Like comparing TN ranks with other states ? Like a Objective analysis or something ?

Such before and after comparisons may not be easy for the lack of data, but the outcome is there for everyone to see. The way TN and Kerala are advanced both in literary rate and HDI (Human development Index) both above national standards. Compare the security situation for minoritis in states like Gujarat and Maharashtra, or with the Dalit situation in Bihar. Saffron brigade doesnt have the guts here to instruct what you can do and what you cannot, hijacking the society in the name of moral policing. Enaku innum neraya vaartha varudhu, but surukkama sollanumna, inaikku thamizh naatula oru sarasari kudimagan, suyamariyadhayudanum, thanichayagavum vaazhradhuku miga periya karanam, indha iyakkangal thaan. Idhu marukka mudiyadha unmai :D

[pizzalot]

Deva Priya , maybe Vasanthi was correct. Dravidian movements did not achieve great literary achievements. But you see, it popularised the existing volumes of literature to reach the mass. It made even a common man take pride of the volumes of litereature already written. That is why you see Thiruvalluvar being the only Poet to have a 133 feet statue and no other in the world. TN's print reaches more number of people than print from any other state. We can say that the common man participates and takes pride of the literature created. Another area is the TFM. What Vasanthi tells in a year in her novels can be effectively portrayed in less than 3 hours through Audio Visual Media. So that is where Kazhagams concentrated. Today compare TFM with that of anyother in India and you will know the impact of Dravidian movement.

[thamizhvaanan]

Deva Priya , maybe Vasanthi was correct. Dravidian movements did not achieve great literary achievements. But you see, it popularised the existing volumes of literature to reach the mass. It made even a common man take pride of the volumes of litereature already written. That is why you see Thiruvalluvar being the only Poet to have a 133 feet statue and no other in the world. TN's print reaches more number of people than print from any other state. We can say that the common man participates and takes pride of the literature created. Another area is the TFM. What Vasanthi tells in a year in her novels can be effectively portrayed in less than 3 hours through Audio Visual Media. So that is where Kazhagams concentrated. Today compare TFM with that of anyother in India and you will know the impact of Dravidian movement.
I partly agree with you. But it would be wrong to completely dismiss that there were no great literary outcome out of Dravidian movements. If it is so, can you quote any other movement in the neo era that contributed to tamil literature? The blatant truth is that dravidian movement has been the major driving force behind modern tamil literature. And to speak of greatness is totally trivial. Often antiquity is confused with greatness. There are some not so great literary works that have been celebrated in the past just for their antiquity and there are some really good works in the modern era lost amidst mediocrity. It must be considered that it is very difficult for a modern literary work to be named as a classic. Take for instance, the most productive modern language English. Is there any modern work in English to be ranked alongside shakespeare, keats or milton's works? Does that mean that English literature is not productive in modern era? Absolutely wrong! It has been one among the most prolific languages in the modern era. Likewise, if Tamil language is still productive in modern era, comparable to other modern languages, the credit has to mainly go to Dravidian movement for sustaining the impetus for so long.

If I am not wrong, it was Bharathidasan who reckoned that there should be modern epics to match to the past splendour of Tamil literature, and he went ahead and did his bit in contributing some classics like Pandiyan Parisu, Kudumba Vilakku etc., And following his footsteps there is a lineage of pAvendhar parambharai kavignargal like Vaanidasan, Suradha and a multitude of other poets who continued to contribute to Tamil literature. Maybe in the past decade or so, other facets of modern tamil literature is emerging from background, but still it would be ungrateful to forget Dravidian movement's contribution in sustaining Tamil literature during the majority of the last century.

[pizzalot]

Bharathidasan who reckoned that there should be modern epics to match to the past splendour of Tamil literature, and he went ahead and did his bit in contributing some classics like Pandiyan Parisu, Kudumba Vilakku etc., And following his footsteps there is a lineage of pAvendhar parambharai kavignargal like Vaanidasan, Suradha and a multitude of other poets who continued to contribute to Tamil literature.

I was just wondering why inspite of the Dravidian Movement and Tamil Patriotism and readership we were not able to win as many Gnanapeet awards as Kannada won. On Kannada camp that is what is being boasted as accomplishments.

[Punnaimaran]

[tscii:589adf2f34]Awards in India have become a joke nowadays. One of the greatest actors of India in our times, Nadigar Thilakam Sivaji Ganesan did not get a national award for his leading roles !!

It was indeed a misfortune to know that Mr. Nehru pleaded ignorance of the actor when President Nasser of Egypt enquired dearly about him after seeing his stellar performance in “Veerapandia Kattabomman” in the Cairo Film Festival. Nehru did make amends when he made Sivaji the main host when Nasser visited India subsequently!

so there is nothing to boast about awards given in India. [/tscii:589adf2f34]

[P_R]

Often antiquity is confused with greatness. There are some not so great literary works that have been celebrated in the past just for their antiquity and there are some really good works in the modern era lost amidst mediocrity. It must be considered that it is very difficult for a modern literary work to be named as a classic. Well put. I see a similar analogy of regarding the intensity of ideology and literary merit in the Dravidian movement.

Heck, I vaguely remember reading a book that dismissed Bharathi's literary stature. Critiqued the lack of basic knowledge of grammar of Tamil poetry, unoriginal metaphors, inappropriate analogies and inconsistent expression. All this while acknowledging that he is an important Tamil thinker in the 20th century.

With my feeble skills of literary evaluation I find the critique harsh. But I was impressed by the separation of literary merit from the intensity of opinion. I am curious to know if many Dravidian litterateurs would pass muster.

Here I would also like to admit my considerable underexposure to the Dravidian literary giants. But I have made some attempts to prod through Anna's novels, Bharathidasan's Pandiyan Parisu, some poems of Suratha etc. I was quite underwhelmed.

I was particularly disappointed with Anna's writings - which I landed after reading a few of his impressive parliamentary speeches. I was only led to the conclusion that story-writing was not his line. Which is fine. But what concerns me is the laudatory statements made about his literary contributions. I try and subtract some measure of fulsome praise -which has come to become our cultural signature. Even after that I am still believe he is genuinely thought of as an important literary contributor to the movement. That leads to me view with suspcion the literary merits of a body of work, which - as I mentioned earlier - I am significantly underexposed to.

Which is why I want to know if I am missing something, as you make a strong statement like:
The blatant truth is that dravidian movement has been the major driving force behind modern tamil literature.

[pizzalot]

Your views on Anna and other's writing is in line with mine. But we cannot blame them either. They are supposed to impress the mass audience who devotes his time sparingly on reading books and so on. So their emphasis was on selling and numbers perhaps. Another thing is they were building a legacy from scratch. Remember unlike Begalis they did not go the Western route. Also unlike Kannads they did not go the Sanskrit route. Total volume wise their contribution far surpassed contribution in anyother language. In anycase the Dravidian (read Tamil or Southern)contribution to literature was original, unadulterated.

[pizzalot]

Coming back to Periyar .. I heard Rajaji descibed him as 64th Azhwar. Definitely he knew Periyar more than anyone (may be even more than Maniammai did). But again, why should he need to compare Periyar with only Azhwars. Why not with others ? Why not with Sankara ? Can we continue the discussion on that lines also ? My knowledge of the Azhwars is very less. Do Azhwars have the nature of revolting against the society they lived and infuse into it a new revolutionary ideas devoiding it of evils in their times ? If Rajaji's analysis and analogy was correct, it will be a lesson for both believers and non-believers.

The lesson the believer will have to learn is that Periyar did no different than what the Azhwars did during their times.
The lesson the non-believer will be learning is that religion is nothing but collection of teachings of people like Periyar (like Azhwars).

[sivank]

Coming back to Periyar .. I heard Rajaji descibed him as 64th Azhwar. Definitely he knew Periyar more than anyone (may be even more than Maniammai did). But again, why should he need to compare Periyar with only Azhwars. Why not with others ? Why not with Sankara ? Can we continue the discussion on that lines also ? My knowledge of the Azhwars is very less. Do Azhwars have the nature of revolting against the society they lived and infuse into it a new revolutionary ideas devoiding it of evils in their times ? If Rajaji's analysis and analogy was correct, it will be a lesson for both believers and non-believers.

The lesson the believer will have to learn is that Periyar did no different than what the Azhwars did during their times.
The lesson the non-believer will be learning is that religion is nothing but collection of teachings of people like Periyar (like Azhwars).

A small dig. Pizzalot. did Rajaji really said 64th Azhvaar. As far as I know there were only 12 azhwaars and 63 Naayanmaars.

[pizzalot]

A small dig. Pizzalot. did Rajaji really said 64th Azhvaar. As far as I know there were only 12 azhwaars and 63 Naayanmaars.

So much for the memory of what I heard. Please correct it as Nayanmaars instead.

[pizzalot]

Interesting and relevant info from today's TOI ..

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Most_number_of_OBCs_in_IAS_from_TN/rssarticleshow/3010490.cms

Can we read between lines ?