charu nivedita's comments on veda

[abbydoss1969]

writer charu nivedita comments on vedas;

http://charuonline.com/kp195.html


do you agree or disagree?

[bis_mala]

Charu's exposition is quite well-balanced. His views are based on facts. I agree.

[jaiganes]

Atharva vedha is somewhat like what Charu has said. However other vedas are not like what he has portrayed completely. For Eg., Yajur Vedha is all about machines and technology. so I dont see how it can have the kind of verses quoted by Charu. Also any work will have the impact of the cultural and political situation of the times in which it was written. So I will not be totally surprised to find certain things which are so "awful" and "unacceptable" to our current sense and sensibilities. Charu in my opinion has conducted a "biased" study of the work. He wanted to find bad things in Vedhas and he found them. So what can I say. He got what he wanted from Vedhas.!!!

[abbydoss1969]

Atharva vedha is somewhat like what Charu has said. However other vedas are not like what he has portrayed completely. For Eg., Yajur Vedha is all about machines and technology. so I dont see how it can have the kind of verses quoted by Charu. Also any work will have the impact of the cultural and political situation of the times in which it was written. So I will not be totally surprised to find certain things which are so "awful" and "unacceptable" to our current sense and sensibilities. Charu in my opinion has conducted a "biased" study of the work. He wanted to find bad things in Vedhas and he found them. So what can I say. He got what he wanted from Vedhas.!!!
I think he is going to write a book and for research only he wanted to read all the vedas,In the first paragraph, he specifically states , he wanted to read the vedas without any bias,without getting influenced by the "periyarism"

[jaiganes]

he specifically states , he wanted to read the vedas without any bias,without getting influenced by the "periyarism"
Abby!
I desparately want to believe him. Trust me. I do. However all the quotes he has given is from "Atharva" veda, which some say has more tantric details and some sections which many willingly label as "Black Magic". I merely pointed out that there are three more vedhas and he dismisses them as nothing interesting. Well he wants to see gory things in "Aryan" vedhas and surely he has picked up the right section to find them. Thats it. I am not here to defend Vedhas. However I can say that if he wants to make a sincere attempt, then he should probably go to a scholar and learn it from him instead of trying to go through some English translation of just "Atharva Vedha". Thats all.

[mahadevan]

If someone belives that he has voluntarily left out the good things in vedas, the best way to make their point is by showing what is good in vedas.

[Badri]

Mahadevan: I am reminded of a simple Rg Vedic Chant

Loka samastha Sukhino Bhavanthu : May all the worlds be happy

I know there are many more such, but the utter simplicity and all encompassing nobility of this prayer is a testament to the good in the Vedas.

[indian224080]

A background check on Charu Nivedita would surely reveal what kind of biased person he is!!!. However if he feels he can write a book on it yes he can very well go ahead and write it.

But will he also tell other golden teachings of his Guru like...

Tamizh oru kattumirandi Baasai...
Kadavulai Karpippavan Muttal....
And more over his golden teachings of Men and Women Morality..

I would love to read a book which has those....

[indian224080]

Another one from top of my head

"May the Omnipresent and Omnipotent God endow us with faith and Pure Reason at the same time." Atharva Veda 19:64

[srivatsan]

Charu Nevidita's comments are totally FALSE. It shows his biased and hatred against Vedas:

[bis_mala]

There are also areas in the Vedas not acceptable by current standards.

[kannannn]

I read Charu Nivedita's comments on the veda and to cross-check, also went through the vedas on this site:
http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/index.htm
I am glad to say that I haven't missed anything from not reading the vedas before. I just see a collection of hymns, mostly addressed to the elements and procedures for religious sacrifice. That I can live without!


Loka samastha Sukhino Bhavanthu : May all the worlds be happy
I know there are many more such, but the utter simplicity and all encompassing nobility of this prayer is a testament to the good in the Vedas.
Even going by your arguments, don't the number of anachronistic chants far outweigh the kind quoted?! (BTW what is the book number, chapter number, .. of the hymn you have quoted? I tried searching for it, but in vain)

Well, one thing is for certain. I will know what people are talking about when they sing praises of these books. Charms for begetting sons and a prayer for success in gambling? - give me a break!!

[srivatsan]

Mr. Kannan:nnnn

Nobody in the olden days cared to write book number or slogan number. "Loka Samstha Sukhino Bhavanthu" is a common text, occurs in many part of "Nithya Karma anushtanam", as I know them by first hand, as I myslef, is an Adhyayayi....So if you go and searh this in websites, probably you never would find them...

If you are so much interested in classifying something, then I think the best way is to learn it in the proper way....and not searcing in the website... Good Luck

[kannannn]

[tscii:6378ddc956]
If you are so much interested in classifying something, then I think the best way is to learn it in the proper way
Ah! My grandfather is probably stirring in his grave.., but jokes apart, why do you answer selectively? Maybe there is a passage in the Rig veda that says so, but a look at the website I have mentioned clearly brings out the fact that vedas just served the purpose of the day: outline the code for religious sacrifices and prayers for.. ahem.. obtaining a wife and protection of cattle ('Indra opened the hole of Vrtra; the topmost cattle he grasped by the back and pulled out; a thousand cattle followed it, it became hump backed. He who desires cattle should offer this humpbacked (one) to Indra', Yajur Veda, Kanda 2, Prapathaka 1 on Special Animal Sacrifices).

Giving you the benefit of doubt, it is possible that "May all the worlds be happy" is tucked into a corner and is part of probably a small collection of hymns that pray for universal well being. But that doesn't make the vedas so special, do they? I can quote other poets too who have prayed for universal prosperity.

The vedas were probably useful in the vedic days when people were heavily dependant on agriculture and diary products for their living and were constantly attacked by wild beasts and poisonous reptiles ('I release (thee) from the fury of the black serpent, the taimâta, the brown serpent, the poison that is not fluid, the all-conquering, as the bowstring (is loosened) from the bow, as chariots (from horses)', Atharva Veda, VI, 13 , 6), but do they serve any practical purpose today? That's my question.

Pray tell me, what the numbers in the reference to Atharva veda in the following quote mean:

"May the Omnipresent and Omnipotent God endow us with faith and Pure Reason at the same time." Atharva Veda 19:64

If it's a few prayers like "May all the worlds be happy", among the many impractical ones, that bestow upon the vedas such respect, I would choose 'Thirukkural' any day.[/tscii:6378ddc956]

[srivatsan]

Dear Kannann Sir:

The system of Vedic education is very different from what you think Sir! I am not a scholar, but being an Adhyayi by myself, I know , atleast, how to read and understand vedas.

The vedas have 6 angas, namely 1)Siksha 2) Vyakarana 3) Chandas 4) Jyotisha 5) Nirukta and 6) Kalpa.

Siksha explains the proper pronunciations of the Vedas,

Vyakarana explains the grammar of the Vedic words

Chandas explains the metres of the various Riks and accoustic science assosiated with this.

Jyotisha delas with Universe and the movement of planets and stars around us. Even in Jyotisha, there are 2 parts(which is not in to the focus of the subject)

Nirukta contains the Sootras or formula for word formation or mantra formation.

Kalpa describes the proper method of performing the various ritual mentioned in the Vedas and its practical application with clear cut riders.

Vedas should be learnt in this above mentioned way and not from websites or from McCauley's system of education.

Generally vedam has two broad classification in its application
1. The portions connected with daily rituals or nithya karmaanushtana are called Karmakanda. It deals with how rituals like various yagas are to be done. It is called Purvakanda.
2. Portions dealing with philosophy and knowledge of Brahman are called Jnanakandra or Brahma kanda. Upanishads are the simple examples of Jnanakanda.

So the mantras that you hear and you mention as useless or "not suitable for today's life is just a small drop of an ocean.

Sir, I again (may be for the last time :) ) wish to tell you, "There are things around us very far beyond our imagination and just ridiculing something without even knowing what it is just childishness.

I dont say, Thriukkural or Aathi Chuvadi is inferior or superiour....I respect both Vedas and these Thamizh scripts for I know, both have tremendous amt of good things in it.

I repeat I am not a scholar, but I will not call names or redicule something, which I dont know about.

[bis_mala]

Scholar Dr S. Vaiyapurip Pillai concluded in his researches that the Vedic people learnt jOthisham from the Greeks. He has pointed to the number of Greek terms which have found their way into the Vedas. ( I do not have the references with me now.). Thus originality of certain aspects has been made clear.

Apart from the question of originality, one has to look at the parts incompatible with our modern era. Certain passages like the one on the establishment of warnas have had the most detestable impact on the entire subcontinent and its people. The virus may be immensely minute in size but what of its causation of consequences?.

[kannannn]

The vedas have 6 angas, namely 1)Siksha 2) Vyakarana 3) Chandas 4) Jyotisha 5) Nirukta and 6) Kalpa.

Siksha explains the proper pronunciations of the Vedas,

Vyakarana explains the grammar of the Vedic words

Chandas explains the metres of the various Riks and accoustic science assosiated with this.

Jyotisha delas with Universe and the movement of planets and stars around us. Even in Jyotisha, there are 2 parts(which is not in to the focus of the subject)

Nirukta contains the Sootras or formula for word formation or mantra formation.

Kalpa describes the proper method of performing the various ritual mentioned in the Vedas and its practical application with clear cut riders.

Vedas should be learnt in this above mentioned way and not from websites or from McCauley's system of education.
That McCauley sure knew how to enter any discussion on modern education in India!!

There is a fundamental difference in the way we perceive the vedas. You have put it upon a pedestal and even follow laid out rules to read them. I see them as just another collection of books. If I will ever rever the vedas as much as you do depends on what I find in them. A translation is good enough for that, because I go by their meaning.

Maybe, sanskrit is sweet to the ears and the nuances of the vedic hymns can be better understood through a formal course in sanskrit. But that is beyond the point here. Learning Ancient Greek is a sure way of enjoying the finer aspects of Homer's Iliad, but a good translation is enough to know if it deserves the respect it gets.


So the mantras that you hear and you mention as useless or "not suitable for today's life is just a small drop of an ocean.
Well, can't say anything on that. We disagree on our basic approach to the vedas. I still go by the translation. Upanishads - I will take them up sometime.


There are things around us very far beyond our imagination and just ridiculing something without even knowing what it is just childishness. I dont say, Thriukkural or Aathi Chuvadi is inferior or superiour....I respect both Vedas and these Thamizh scripts for I know, both have tremendous amt of good things in it.

I don't mean to start a fight here on what is better. I am still learning. If someone can quote, from a translation, the good aspects (that must be in a overwhelming majority) of the vedas, I am willing to buy the referred translation and see for myself. Maybe my attitude to vedas will change after that. But for now, what is see is not pleasant.

[srivatsan]

I don't mean to start a fight here on what is better. I am still learning. If someone can quote, from a translation, the good aspects (that must be in a overwhelming majority) of the vedas, I am willing to buy the referred translation and see for myself. Maybe my attitude to vedas will change after that. But for now, what is see is not pleasant.

The point is that you hav not seen vedas at all. If you say that a 6th standard physics text book is enough understanding the "Theory of Relativity", seriously I have nothing to say sir.....

[abbydoss1969]

If someone can quote, from a translation, the good aspects (that must be in a overwhelming majority) of the vedas, I am willing to buy the referred translation and see for myself


Yes, I have been looking forward to someone explaining the good points of vedas by quoting relevant slokas,(without getting into personalities), but no one seems to do so.

[srivatsan]

If someone can quote, from a translation, the good aspects (that must be in a overwhelming majority) of the vedas, I am willing to buy the referred translation and see for myself


Yes, I have been looking forward to someone explaining the good points of vedas by quoting relevant slokas,(without getting into personalities), but no one seems to do so.

It very very rare to find a scholar, who have learnt vedas in the way it shd be learnt. Those learned persons, unfortunately are not as aware as we are about such discussions and forum...However, I know a gentleman who has learnt the vedas in a way it shd be learnt and he is also little aware about these forums..I will try to approach him or I myself will spend time on this and try to quote something in this forum.....

[indian224080]

[tscii:e9bb21dc79]An article on Mistranslation of Vedas

By B.D.Ukhul

The Myth of the Holy Cow by D.N.Jha published by Verso, London, 2002 is the most damaging book in its contents since the sole intention of the author has been to prove that all ancient Hindu scriptures particularly the Vedas and Shatpath Brahmana etc. uphold beef-eating and this has been the way of life of the Aryans who were our ancestors since the term Hindu came to be introduced much later. The author has cited references from the Vedas, Brahmanas, Upnishads etc. to prove his thesis which perhaps he chose to be the sole mission of his life even though he comes from a Brahamin family and he has dedicated his so called prestigious book to his kin in Rajrani (a symbol of motherhood). Aryans revered cow as a mother and it is really an irony that a son of Bharat has taken immense pains to prove something which is far from truth and also it injures the sentiments of millions of Hindus and in order to demolish his thesis an effort is being hereby made to trace each and every reference cited by him in the book and reveal the truth and nothing but the truth. To commence with, citations quoted from the Rgveda are being dealt with beginning from the very first Mandala of Rigveda.

It is beyond any doubt that the conclusions drawn by Mr. Jha are based on wrong interpretations and the misleading commentaries by the western scholars and also the works of Indian scholars who got patronage of the British rulers. Role of such scholars and their mission to erase our heritage was under a well planned scheme to mould the Indian mind into the western thought and culture and create conditions to cast off our past. Their mission was to spread Christianity and the major players were Macauley and Max Muller and their correspondence and writings* will substantiate this submission. Hereby it will also be revealed that these western scholars could not derive the right and intended spirit of our ancient Rishis and have erred immensely. In the realm of the Vedic interpretation, we owe debt to Swami Dayanand Saraswati(1825-1883), the founder of Aryasamaj who took us back to the Vedas. His commentaries were based on the Nighantu and Yaska’s Nirukta and he thought deep and delved deep to arrive at the rightful adhyatmik and yogic spirit of the mantras. The opinion of a great saint-philosopher Sri Aurobindo Ghosh will be the most pertinent to quote in this regard. “In the matter of Vedic interpretation I am convinced that whatever may be the final complete interpretation, Dayananda will be honoured as the first discoverer of the right clues. Amidst the chaos and obscurity of old ignorance and age long misunderstanding his was the eye of direct vision that pierced to the truth and fastened on that which was essential. He had found the keys of the doors that time had closed and rent asunder the seals of the imprisoned fountains”. AT THIS STAGE IT IS DESIRABLE THAT WE APPROACH THIS IMPORTANT ASPECT TO ENDORSE AND ACCEPT THE RIGHTFUL INTERPRETAIONS INSTEAD OF CLINGING TO DEFECTIVE LITERAL TRANSLATIONS OF THE VEDAS WHICH ARE REVELATIONS BY THE ALMIGHTY GOD WHO BLESSED US WITH THIS DIVINE KNOWLEDGE TO GUIDE OUR PATH SINCE THE VEDIC REVELATION WAS SYNCHRONOUS WITH MAN’S FIRST APPEARANCE ON EARTH. How can our creator prescribe offerings of his own creatures? After independence, this aspect should have received due attention but it is sad that this remained untapped and even the Sanskrit language came under cloud when a Rajya Sabha nominated Christian member Frank Anthony introduced a bill to drop this sacred language from the eighth schedule of languages enshrined in the Indian constitution in 1977. There is no doubt that some Western scholars did an appreciable job to introduce the Vedas to the outside world which inspired the scholars to learn Sanskrit to benefit from the treasure of wisdom of Vedic Rishis but unfortunately, it followed a wrong path without application of their inner mind or intellect as was done by the devoted disciple of Swami Virajanand who was actually blind of eyes but he imparted such vision and deep knowledge to Dayanand that he clung to the soul and spirit of the Vedas and it is our bounden duty to follow this path to understand the sacred words of God which can never be wrong and are ever infallible.

In the context of the commentary/translation of the Vedas by Max Muller, it will be relevant to point out the opinion of Mr. Boulanger, the editor of Russian edition of The Sacred Books of the East Series as follows:

“What struck me in Max Mullar’s translation was a lot of absurdities, obscene passages and a lot of what is not lucid”.

“As far as I can grab the teaching of the Vedas, it is so sublime that I would look upon it as a crime on my part, if the Russian public becomes acquainted with it through the medium of a confused and distorted translation, thus not deriving for its soul that benefit which this teaching should give to the people”.

In his book ‘Vedic Hymns’, Max Muller himself says “My translation of the Vedas is conjectural”.

HEREUNDER the glaring difference in substance and the spirit of the cited Suktas 162 and 163 of the first Mandala of Rigveda is illustrated to establish that misinterpretation is at the root of this problem. Each Sukta has its risi and devata; risi depicts ‘drashta’ whereas devata depicts the subject matter which facilitates the understanding of the mantras under respective Sukta.

Sukta 162-

Name of risi Name of devata
Deerghatama Mitradyo Lingokta (As per Sw.Dayanand)
Deerghatama Ashav-stuti (As per translation of HH Wilson)

Sukta 163-

Name of risi Name of devata
Deerghatama Ashvo-agnirdevta (As per Sw.Dayanand)
Deerghatama Ribhuganh (As per translation of HH Wilson)

The above implies that both the Suktas are in glorification of the horse but our Western enthusiasts and Mr.Jha along with his Indian ideals have even ignored the very basic lead and gone for crucification of the spirit of mantras which is left to your esteemed judgement.

Sukta 162 has 22 mantras while Sukta 163 has 13 mantras. Mr. Jha states that in the ashvamedha(horse sacrifice),the most important of the Vedic public sacrifices,first referred to in the Rigveda in the afore-stated Suktas (p.31 of his book).

Sukta 162 in fact deals with the science of applying horse power (automation) of the fire pervading in the form of energy.

No mantra supports sacrifice of horses. Of course the first mantra has been translated by Max Muller in a wrong manner as follows:

“May Mitra,Varuna,Aryaman,Ayush,Indra,the Lord of Ribhus and the Maruta not rebuke us because we shall proclaim at the sacrifice virtues of the swift horse sprung from the god”.(from History of Ancient Sanskrit Literature). Similarly H.H.Wilson in his translation based on the commentary of Sayanacarya states as follows:

“Let neither Mitra nor Varuna,Aryaman,Ayu,Indra,Ribhukshin,nor the Maruts,censure us;when was proclaim in the sacrifice the virtues of the swift horse sprung from the gods”.

Transliterated version of this mantra is given below:

Ma no mitro varuno arymayurindro ribhuksha marutah parikhyan Yadvajino devajatasya sapteh pravakshyamo vidathe veeryani

Maharishi Dayanand Saraswati in his Hindi commentary has rendered the translation as follows:

We the performers of yajna in all seasons (vidathe) in the battle field (yat) whose (vajinah) stormy (devajatasya) learned men and borne out of the divine virtues (sapte) of the horse (veeryani) unique performances (pravakshyamah) we shall describe (nah) the daring performances of our horses (mitrah) friend (varunah) sublime (aryama) the deliverer of justice (ayuh) the knower (indrah) the all-elivated or aishvaryavan (ribhuksha) intelligent and (marutah) priests (ma, pari,khyan) should never disregard these properties.

To easily grasp the spirit of mantra the following translation will be helpful.

We shall describe here the energy generating virtues of the powerful horses(planets),added with brilliant properties of the vigorous force of heat. The learned never dispute these properties.

There is vast difference in the above quoted translations.Obviously the wrong seeds were sown by Sayan and Mahidhar who were the ideals adopted by the western scholars, namely Max Muller, Griffith , Wilson etc. Sw.Dayanand Saraswati in his book “An Introduction to the Vedas” has adversely criticised on the commentaries of Sayan and Mahidhar in context of some of their interpretations of the Vedic hymns. They could be held responsile for the horrible and horried interpretations which suggest as if the Vedas were the texts to lay down the modes of sacrifices. Is it not a tragedy for the Dharamacharyas/Sanskrit scholars of this country that they also could not pursue the path shown by Dayanand and got bogged down only in the rituals of worship in the temples and no attention was paid to the sources of knowledge which were the guiding principles of Aryans, our worthy ancestors and sons of the mother India (Aryavrat) as the Vedas proclaimed man as ‘amritasya putras’ and we need to follow this path if we want to be proud of our heritage and hold our head high or otherwise we are going to be labelled with the legacy of butchers and animal killers who desired to please different gods by various sacrifices performed in the yajnas.

Eighth mantra of this Sukta is translated as follows:

The fleet of horses is controlled by holding of bridles and saddles placed thereon. To make them strong,the grass and cereals are fed to them. Likewise,the learned people control and regulate their power of senses and taking nourishing diet.

Wilson’s translation is as follows:

May the halter and the heel-ropes of the fleet courser, and the head-ropes, the girths, and any other (part of the harness); and the grass that has been put into his mouth; may all these be with you,(horse),amongst the gods. (THIS IS NOTHING BUT LITERAL AND MECHANICAL TRANSLATON BEREFT OF THE SUBSTANCE & SPIRIT OF THE MANTRA)

Ninth mantra again was again wrongly interpreted by Max Muller,Wilson and Griffith to translate the word ’kravishah’ as the flesh. It is an adjective of ‘ashvasya’ and derived from kramu-padavikshepe. Hence it means ‘ the pacing horse’ and not of the flesh. ‘shamituh’ has been translated by Prof. Max Muller and Wilson as of the immolator. Griffith has translated it as ‘of a slayer’. But etymologically ‘sam-alochne’ means ‘to look at’ (with love and peace) and should mean ‘ a person who looks at the living beings with love and peace and not slayer’.

Twelfth mantra emphasizes on the qualities of the warrior and its translation is as follows:

They who crave for the meat of a horse and declare the horse fit to be killed should be exterminated. Those who keep the fast horse well trained and disciplined deserve to be praised by us for the strength of their character and perseverance. (IT CLEARLY DEMOLISHES THE THESIS OF JHA AND PROVES THAT HE HAS MERELY QUOTED CITATIONS AND HARDLY CARED TO LOOK AT THE ACTUAL TEXT BUT INSPIRED BY THE FOLLOWING TRANSLATION OF WILSON):

“Let their exertions be for our good who watch the cooking of the horse; who say, it is fragrant; therefore give us some: who solicit the flesh of the horse as alms”. (WHAT AN IMMENSE DAMAGE TO THE SPIRIT OF THE MANTRA).

Mantras 13 to 19 deal with the theme of horse or automation power while 20 to 22 are devoted to the benefits of Yoga exercises and an ideal life.

Sukta 163

This Sukta deals with various attributes of learned person, agni, science & technology. There are references to the horse to illustrate its unique qualities of its immense energy likened to agni (fire), intelligence, bravery and inbuilt attributes which are at par with those of the men of wisdom. Perusal of some mantras will bring home this point.

First mantra includes or rather ends with ‘arvan’ and this word denotes as per Yv 29.12 vigyanvan athva ashvaiv veguvan vidvan=O learned person active like the horse.

Second mantra includes the term ‘surat ashvam’ which means the fast moving agni i.e the fire which enables a speedy locomotion.

Third mantra includes the term ‘adityah arvan’ and here it means the sun which is all pervading. ‘arvan’means sarvatrapraptah=pervading all. This term was wrongly translated by Prof. Wilson , Griffith and others, while both admit in the notes that Yama means Agni, Aditya-Sun and Trita-Vayu. How can horse be identified with Agni (fire) sun and the air etc.none has cared to justify. To take ‘arva’ for agni, there is the clear authority of the Taittiriya Brahmana.(I.36,4).

Fourth mantra includes the word ‘arvan’ where it is used to mean the learned and wise people.

Eighth mantra includes the word ‘arvan’ through which the mighty and active person has been likened to the horse who bears such characteristics.

Ninth mantra includes the word ‘arvantam’ which means vegavantam agnim ashvam=the rapid horse in the form of Agni (fire, electricity etc.)

Tenth mantra includes the word ‘ashva’ where it means the bright swift horses in the form of fire, air, water etc.

Eleventh mantra includes the word ‘arvan’ and the following translation of this mantra will endorse our stand that the unique qualities of the horse are emphasized in Sukta-163:

“O brave person! You are active like a horse, your body is like a swift vehicle, your mind is like the wind in motion. Your sublime actions are initiated from the proper use of fire and electricity. These are spread in all directions like the hoary creatures in the forests”. One can see that this mantra is in praise of highly skilled technicians.

Wilson’s translation reads as follows:

“Your body, horse, is made for motion , your mind is rapid (in intention ) as the wind: the hairs (of your mane) are tossed in manifold directions; and spread beautiful in the forests”.(ANOTHER EXAMPLE OF MECHANICAL TRANSLATION)

Twelfth mantra includes the term ’vajyarva’ which means agni swift(vegavan) like a horse and here in this mantra use of agni is highlighted.

Thirteenth and the last mantra of this Sukta contains the word ‘arvan’ where it means agnyadashvan= horses in the form of fire, electricity etc.

ASVAMEDHA has been translated as horse sacrifice as referred above by Jha and the conclusions drawn accordingly and this has been the root cause of varied wrong interpretations and in order to illustrate its scope and meaning the following is stated:

At the sight of words ‘asvamedha,gomedha,purushmedha,ajmedha’ there ia general tendency to interpret it to denote as hinsa/sacrifice/killing. ‘medha’ word’s verb or dhatu is ‘medhri’. ‘medhrisangame hinsayam cha’ i.e. to enhance pure intellect , to inculcate love and integration among the people and also hinsa i.e killing (this dhatu conveys these three meanings).But it does not always mean killing or sacrifice and in Sanskrit no literal translation will do where a particular word carries varied meanings and it has to be applied judiciously and thoughtfully keeping in view the context of the text. The words ‘purushmedha’ and ‘nriyajna’ are synonyms. In manusmriti the word ‘nriyajna’ has been defined as’nriyajnoatithipoojanam’ (manusmriti -3.70) it means the pooja or honour of the guests. If we take the meaning of the root ‘medhri’ as sangamanarth it will come to be interpreted as to organize the people for virtuous deeds or to enhance the love and equanimity among them i.e. it would be ‘nriyajna’or ‘purushmedh’. It may be pertinent to mention here that ‘nrimedha’ is a rishi of some vedic hymns of Samveda. It can never mean the one who kills or sacrifices the human beings. Consequently, the terms followed by medha always do not signify killing/sacrifice and therefore the interpretations made by the Western scholars are utterly wrong and unacceptable.

In Shatpath Brahmana (13.1.6) it is stated “Rashtram va asvamedhah” i.e. Asvamedha means to manage or run the affairs of the rashtra (country) in a befitting manner.

In the Shantiparva of Mahabharata (3.336) there is mention of asvamedha of the king Vasu in which numerous rishis and learned men participated.In this context it is clearly mentioned “n tatra pashughato-abhoot” i.e. there was no killing of any animal. Further in this Parva at 3.327, the following is stated in context with ‘ajamedh’:

Ajairyajneshu yashtavyamiti vai vaidiki shruti Ajasanjnani beejani chhaganno hantumarhatha Naishah dharmah satam devah yatra vadhyeta vai pashuh

It means that whenever it is stated to use aja for performance of yajna, it means the seeds called ‘aja’ have to be used. Here it does not mean a goat. It is not proper to kill goats and it does not behove the virtuous people to indulge in killing of the animals.

Sw.Dayanand Saraswati in his book “An introduction to the Vedas” at p.448-449 states that God is Jamadagni i.e. Ashvamedha. An empire is like a horse and the subjects like other inferior animals. As other animals,the strength, so the subjects are weaker than the state assembly. The glory and splendour of an empire consists in wealth,gold etc. and in administration of justice”.(Shatpath Brahmana: XIII.2.2.14-17) It is further stated that God’s name is Ashva also,because , He pervades the whole universe (Ashva comes from the root ‘Ash’ which means to pervade).

The above derivations call for our cautious approach and take upon ourselves the task of removing the mist caused by misinterpretations to see the truth which can be one and only one and feel proud of our heritage.

Rakshabandhan: 7th Bhadrapada, 2059
22nd August,2002

(To be continued)

(The author expresses his gratitude to Shri Bharat Bhushan Vidyalankar for his guidance,encouragement and valuable suggestions in compilation of the write-up)

[/tscii:e9bb21dc79]

[stranger]

The point is that you hav not seen vedas at all. .

Seeing Veda???

What do you MEAN????

I have not seen a RAPE

I have not seen a MURDER.

You think I cant understand what a rape and murder are??? :?:

[stranger]

It very very rare to find a scholar, who have learnt vedas in the way it shd be learnt. Those learned persons, unfortunately are not as aware as we are about such discussions and forum.

It is really a pity! :(

[srivatsan]

The point is that you hav not seen vedas at all. .

Seeing Veda???

What do you MEAN????

I have not seen a RAPE

I have not seen a MURDER.

You think I cant understand what a rape and murder are??? :?:

I NEVER THOUGHT ANYONE WOULD TAKE THAT WORD "SEEN" LITERALLY! :!: :banghead:

[srivatsan]

It very very rare to find a scholar, who have learnt vedas in the way it shd be learnt. Those learned persons, unfortunately are not as aware as we are about such discussions and forum.

It is really a pity! :( YES SIR IT IS A REAL PITY! THERE ARE MANY REASONS...but I dont want to do a blame game

[kannannn]

The point is that you hav not seen vedas at all. If you say that a 6th standard physics text book is enough understanding the "Theory of Relativity", seriously I have nothing to say sir.....

I haven't seen Homer's (original) Iliad too srivatsan! But it would be illuminating to see your quotes from vedas. I am waiting for them.

[stranger]

I NEVER THOUGHT ANYONE WOULD TAKE THAT WORD "SEEN" LITERALLY! :!: :banghead:

so what do you mean then? :lol:

[kannannn]

srivatsan, since you have requested the moderator to close the thread on 'Manu Smrithi' (BTW, just curious. Why did you close that thread?), can I repeat the simple question here? If the vedas are so magnanimous about world peace and universal brotherhood, why was 'Manu Smriti' followed by the same people that so ardently recited the vedas? And that too for thousands of years?

[srivatsan]

srivatsan, since you have requested the moderator to close the thread on 'Manu Smrithi' (BTW, just curious. Why did you close that thread?), can I repeat the simple question here? If the vedas are so magnanimous about world peace and universal brotherhood, why was 'Manu Smriti' followed by the same people that so ardently recited the vedas? And that too for thousands of years?

Kannann Sir: It was a bit hasty decision...actually I started the thread 5 days before and there was only one reply and I tht the hubbers are not interested in the topic and hence wrote to moderator to remove it.....but he locked it..... ....but within this gap, I received 3 more reply...well, I shd not have written a note.....

Coming to your question, it is an observed fact, that since the beginning of Kali yuga..people started becoming to be selfish and failed to do their proper duty....I dont call is good...It is unjustifiable and puishable...but if U further wish to discuss about this....we can start another new thread...with a more catchy name ( :D ) so that we can discuss many surrounding aspects also...

[kannannn]

Yes, please do start thread if it is required. I am mainly interested to hear from you who Manu was, what his intentions were and why you think his works were tampered with? I would also like to reproduce a question I posed in the other thread.

Manu has given economic principles also...but his comments regarding Shoodra cast is not very much acceptable...
Do you mean not at all acceptable, or not acceptable to a certain degree?

[srivatsan]

Yes, please do start thread if it is required. I am mainly interested to hear from you who Manu was, what his intentions were and why you think his works were tampered with? I would also like to reproduce a question I posed in the other thread.

Manu has given economic principles also...but his comments regarding Shoodra cast is not very much acceptable...
Do you mean not at all acceptable, or not acceptable to a certain degree?

Anything that is advertantly said againt anyone without any reason is 100% not acceptable....at all.....

Not all are same, but, illtreating something just becuz of no reason is a sin and not acceptable.....


I am mainly interested to hear from you who Manu was, what his intentions were and why you think his works were tampered with?
I dont say that it has been tampered...but why not it could have been tampered...it is one odd-man-out, from the principles of Sanaathana Dharmam!

[devapriya]

Friends,

Vedas donot have little bit of even Caste Discrimination, Sthi etc.,

Tholkappiyam and Sangam Lit has extensively of Casteism and Sthi etc.,. How many support all this.

E.V.RamasamyNaicker says that Tholkappiyam and Tirukural are written to propagate Vedas.

Let friends analyse that.

dev

[bis_mala]

Vedas donot have little bit of even Caste Discri
mination, Sthi etc.,

Not true!!


Tholkappiyam and Sangam Lit has extensively of Casteism and Sthi etc.,. How many support all this.

False.


E.V.RamasamyNaicker says that Tholkappiyam and Tirukural are written to propagate Vedas.

What basis?

[dsath]

Friends,

Vedas donot have little bit of even Caste Discrimination, Sthi etc.,

Tholkappiyam and Sangam Lit has extensively of Casteism and Sthi etc.,. How many support all this.

E.V.RamasamyNaicker says that Tholkappiyam and Tirukural are written to propagate Vedas.

Let friends analyse that.

dev
I thought this was a discussion on Vedas. Please lets not disintergrate this thread to yet another Tamil Vs Sanskrit thread.

[bis_mala]

I thought this was a discussion on Vedas. Please lets not disintergrate this thread to yet another Tamil Vs Sanskrit thread.

There are special threads dealing with such subjects. But our hubbers
would like to discuss these things everywhere. I had in the beginning tried very hard to contain such trends by making suggestions as you did now. But to no avail. Please look at my old messages....Finding no other way, I just posted limited replies.

How do you think other hubbers who wish to keep to topics should react? I am keen to know your suggestions.

[dsath]

Hi Sivamala,
I am sorry if i sounded rude. Didn't mean to.
Well i can understand the need to defend a principle close to one's heart. Sometimes its better to ignore which might be for the best.
dsath

[srivatsan]

Vedas donot have little bit of even Caste Discri
mination, Sthi etc.,

Not true!!


Now my Question...How do you know?

I KNOW THERE IS NOT ANY CASTEISM IN VEDAS.I am telling this as I am an Adhyaayi (means, one who has studied vedas), though not fully, a little.

Can you prove your stand, quoting the line about cast discrimination...?

[dsath]

Hi Srivatsan,
Its nice to have an Adhyaayi admist us. Could you enlighten us more about the Vedas and its teaching please? I have never read the Vedas even in translation and all i have read is about the Vedas.
In regards to the subject under discussion, is the Varna system not mentioned in the Vedas ? How different is the Varna System from the Caste sytem. Till date i was of the opinion they are one and the same.
(Apologies for the ignorance).

[srivatsan]

Hi Srivatsan,
Its nice to have an Adhyaayi admist us. Could you enlighten us more about the Vedas and its teaching please? I have never read the Vedas even in translation and all i have read is about the Vedas.
In regards to the subject under discussion, is the Varna system not mentioned in the Vedas ? How different is the Varna System from the Caste sytem. Till date i was of the opinion they are one and the same.
(Apologies for the ignorance).
Hello Sir:

I would suggest to discuss this in a different thread...may be specially meant for this....if you were not sircastic in your comments :? :)

[dsath]

I happen to be a lady who is a history buff :D
No sarcasm intended. I am totally enchanted by the Greek, Romans (my favorite) , Egyptians and of course the Harappans. The strange thing about Indian history is that, there is controversy in almost everything starting from dating and the sources. There is a lot of talk about Vedas, but not many people know what it is really. So just wanted to know more about it purely from a historical prespective. Since the thread was discussing Vedas, i thought it was appropriate to ask the question, in my quest to understand Indian history. :D

[devapriya]

[tscii:fa2eef0b07]Vedas do not have Caste Vedas do not tell a word on Caste, but a Passing reference on Varna in Purushaskuktham.

Varna System is clsassfication under the type of Profession held and it was not by Birth as per Vedas.

One Who Seves and God and does on behalf of Others with Vedas- Brahmins
One who serves King and Kingdom and can use Sword & Arms – Kshyatrias
One who does Agriculture or trade in Agri Goods is – Vysias
One who remain as helper for all the Three – Sutras
In Mathematics Formulae is translated as Sutrams and Sutras are not Untouchables and they can come up in to the Ladder by doing other works and I put these from Maxmuller through Gilbert Slater who all patronoised Dravidain mYTHS

Certainnly Casteism in Hinduism is not a Pleasant one and I quote GILBERT Slater- who gives from Maxmuller, and I Quote from Tamil Translation by PanmozhiPulavar Appadurai.
ÁÛÅ¢ø ÌÈ¢ì¸ôÀðÎ þýÚ ÅÆ츢ÖûÇ º¡¾¢ Ó¨È §Å¾í¸Ç¢ý Á¢¸ô ÀƨÁÂ¡É ºÁÂò ¾òÐÅí¸Ç¢ø þ¼õ ¦ÀÚ¸¢È¾¡? "þø¨Ä" ±ýÈ ´§Ã¦º¡øÄ¢ø ¿¡õ «¨¾ «Øò¾Á¡¸ ÁÚðÐÅ¢¼Ä¡õ. ¦ÀÕﺢì¸ø Å¡öó¾ º¡¾¢ «¨ÁôÒ Ó¨Èò ¾¢ð¼òÐìÌ §Å¾ Ýì¾í¸Ç¢ø ±ò¾¨¸Â ¾ÃÓõ þø¨Ä. «Ð §À¡Ä§Å Ýò¾¢Ãâý þÆ¢¾¨¸ ¿¢¨Ä¨ÁìÌ ¾¡Ã§Á¡; Àø§ÅÚ ÅÌôÀ¢É÷ ´Õí§¸ ÌØÁ¢ Å¡Æ, ´Õí§¸ ¯ñ½ô ÀÕ¸ò ¾¨¼ Å¢¾¢ìÌõ ±ó¾î ºð¼§Á¡; Àø§ÅÚ º¡¾¢Â¢É÷ ¾õÓû ´ÕÅÕ즸¡ÕÅ÷ Á½ ¯È× ¦¸¡ûŨ¾ò ¾ÎìÌõ ӨȨÁ§Â¡; «ò¾¨¸Â Á½ ¯ÈÅ¡ø ÅÕõ À¢û¨Ç¸ÙìÌ Å¢Äì¸ ÓÊ¡¾ ¾£ìÌȢ¢ðÎð ¾£ñøò¾¸¡¾ÅḠ´Ð츢 ¨ÅìÌõ ¸ðÎôÀ¡§¼¡; ±Ð×õ «ÅüÈ¢ø þø¨Ä. «òмý º¢Åý, ¸¡Ç¢ ¸¢ÂÅ÷¸Ç¢ý «îºó ¾Õõ ¦ºÂø Өȸ¨Çô ÀüÈ£§Â¡; ¸ñ½É¢ý º¢üÈ¢ýÀì ¸Ç¢Â¡ð¼õ ÀüÈ¢§Â¡; .. ... §Åòò¾¢ø ´Õ ÍÅÎ Ü¼ì ¸¢¨¼Â¡Ð. ¸¼×ÙìÌâ Á¾¢ô¨Àò ¾¦Á¦¾Éì ¦¸¡ñÎ ÀÆ¢ÝØõ ´Õ ÌÕÁ¡÷ ÌØÅ¢ý Å£õÒâ¨Á¸û, ÁÉ¢¾ þÉò¾¢ý þøÄí¸¨Ç Å¢Äí¸¢Éí¸Ç¢Ûõ ¸¢Æ¡¸ þÆ¢× ÀÎòÐõ Ó¨È ¸¢ÂÅü¨È ¾Ã¢ìÌõ ±ó¾î ºð¼Óõ «ÅüÈ¢ø þø¨Ä. ÌÆó¨¾ Á½ò¾¢üÌ ¾Ã§Å¡, ÌÆó¨¾ Å¢¾¨Å¸û Á½ò¨¾ò ¾¨¼¦ºö§š ¸½Åý À¢½òмý ¯Â¢ÕûÇ ¨¸õ¦Àñ½¢ý ¯¼¨ÄÔõ ¨Åò¦¾Ã¢ìÌõ ¦À¡øÄ¡ô ÀÆì¸ò¨¾ ¾Ã¢Å¢ì¸§Å¡ «¾¢ø ´Õ Å¡º¸í Ü¼ì ¸¢¨¼Â¡Ð. þ¨Å ¡×õ §Å¾ò¾¢ý ¦º¡øÖìÌõ ¦À¡ÕÙì̧Á Á¡ÚÀð¼¨Å." Quote frm Maxmuler “þó¾¢Â ¿¡¸Ã¢¸ò¾¢ø ¾¢Ã¡Å¢¼ô ÀñÒ”- ¸¢øÀ÷𠺢§Äð¼÷, ¾Á¢ú ¸¡.«ôÀ¡Ð¨Ã. Àì¸õ 40,41.


Now Tholkapiyam has in depth of Varna System. It denies Education to the Fourth, Fourth cannot enter trade at any time etc., Sangam Literature names many Sub-castes even such as “ Irular, Villiar, Pallar, Vettuvar, Aayar, barathavar, maravar, kuravar etc., Sangam Lit. mentions even Many Gotras of Brahmins such as “Kasiyaba, Vathula, Aathreya, Koutinya, Kousika” etc, and as per Vedic practice calling them “Twice Born” etc.,
A Friend in another Forum even gave the Etymology of Caste in Tamil Sathi:


//saar - saarthi - saathi - >>> jaati.

only tamil explains because it contains the root word "saar" or "chaar".

saarthi - saathi = saarnthathu.

saarthiyaar > saarnthavar. this phrase occurrs in tolkaapiyam.//

Any body taking a Athesitic stage can attack Old Literature, such as Kavignanar Kanimozi(Daughter of M.Karunanithi), who came in support of Freedom of Expression that Sangam Literature such as Kurnthogai and Narrinai has lot of Pre-martial Sexual relationships and Charu Nivedita supported this. Bible has extensive Racism even practiced by Jesus, but that is not discussed always but ..
We have a Pratice of Telling our Problems to Religion and Missionaries have taught like that Barahiar condemens it in his Short ARTICLE called Á¾¢ôÒ
þó¾¢Â¡¨Å ¦ÅÇ¢Ôĸò¾¡÷ À¡Á羺õ ±ýÚ ¿¢¨ÉìÌõÀÊ ¦ºö¾ Ó¾ü ÌüÈõ ¿õÓ¨¼ÂÐ. ÒÈì¸ÕÅ¢¸ û ÀÄ. ӾġÅÐ, ¸¢È¢ŠÐÅô À¡¾¢Ã¢. «¦Áâ측ŢÖõ ³§Ã¡ôÀ¡Å¢Öõ º¢Ä ¸¢È¢ŠÐÅô À¡¾¢Ã¢¸û, ¾í¸û Á¾ Å¢„ÂÁ¡É À¢Ãº¡Ãò¨¾ ¯ò§¾º¢òÐ ¿õ¨Áì ÌÈ¢òÐô ¦Àâ ¦Àâ ¦À¡ö¸û ¦º¡øÄ¢, þôÀÊ𠾡úóÐ §À¡ö Á¸ð¾¡É «¿¡¸Ã¢¸ ¿¢¨Ä¢ø þÕìÌõ ƒÉí¸¨Çì ¸¢È¢ŠÐ Á¼ò¾¢§Ä §º÷òÐ §Áý¨ÁôÀÎòÐõ Òñ½¢Âò¨¼î ¦ºöž¡¸î ¦º¡øÖ¸¢È¸û. þóÐì¸û ÌÆ󨾸¨Ç ¿¾¢Â¢§Ä §À¡Î¸¢È¡÷¸û ±ýÚõ, Šòâ¸¨Ç (Ó츢ÂÁ¡¸, «¿¡¨¾¸Ç¡öô ÒÕ„÷¸¨Ç þÆóÐ ¸¾¢Â¢øÄ¡Áø þÕìÌõ ¨¸õ¦Àñ¸¨Ç) ¿¡ö¸¨Çô §À¡Ä ¿¼òи¢È÷¸û ±ýÚõ ÀÄÅ¢¾Á¡É «ÀÅ¡¾í¸û ¦º¡øÖ¸¢È¡÷¸û. ¿õÓ¨¼Â ƒ¡¾¢ô À¢Ã¢×¸Ç¢¦Ä þÕìÌõ ÌüÈí¸¨Ç¦ÂøÄ¡õ â¾ì¸ñ½¡Ê ¨ÅòÐì ¸¡ðθ¢È¡÷¸û. þó¾ì ¸¢È¢ŠÐÅô À¡¾¢Ã¢¸Ç¡§Ä ¿ÁìÌ §¿÷ó¾ «ÅÁ¡Éõ «ÇÅ¢ø¨Ä. Barathiyar, ¸ðΨÃ- Á¾¢ôÒ

So Vedas which as per Panmozi Arignanar Jaggannatha Raja- in his Book “Tamilum Pragiruthamum” published by TN Govts. International Tamil Studies- dated 5000-1000BCE, has much superior Science and Maths etc., is ignored.

Let us value Literaure for its positives please.
[/tscii:fa2eef0b07]

[anticrap]

1) That Persons of so-called "Brahman Race" or "Brahman Varna" were Intellectually Superior to Other Races or Varnas.

The Brahmans' dogma of the racial superiority of the Brahman Varna or Race (`varna'=`color' or `race' in Sanskrit) was fully elucidated in the Lawbook of Manu, the standard law-book of Hinduism :

" Of created beings the most excellent are said to be those which are animated,; of the animated, those which subsist by intelligence; of the intelligent, mainkind, and of men, the Brahmanas."
-- [ Manu.I.96 ]
(2) That the Brahmans were a `Master Race' and Thus Accordingly Entitled to Subjugate, Exploit, Exterminate or Dominate other `Races' (`varnas') or Peoples.

This doctrine was explicitly stated in the Manu-Smrti :

"As the Brahmana sprang from (Brahman's) mouth, as he was the first-born, and as he possesses the Veda, he is by right the lord of this whole creation ."
-- [ Manu.I.93 ]
The logical consequence of the `master race' dogma was the right of Brahmins to dominate over other `inferior' poples and to acquire their territories. This is disclosed by several statements in `sacred' Brahmanist texts, which state that the entire Universe belongs by birthright to the Brahmins :

" A Brahmana, coming into existence, is born as the highest on earth, the lord of all created beings, for the protection of the treasure of the law."
" Whatever exists in the world is, the property of the Brahmana; on account of the excellence of his origin the Brahmana is, indeed entitled to all ."
-- [ Manu.I.99-100 ]
"The wealth that is stolen by the Brahman tends to well being in the next life ; the wealth that is given to the Sudra tends to Hell." (Sukraniti)
-- [ Tirth.118 ]
" When a learned Brahmana has found treasure, deposited in former (times), he may take even the whole (of it); for he is the master of everything."
" When the king finds treasure of old concealed in the ground let him give one half to Brahmanas and place the (other) half in his treasury."
-- [ Manu.VIII.37-38 ]
" that (money which is given) to Brahmanas is declared to be an imperishable treasure for kings."
-- [ Manu.I.82 ]
In addition, the confiscation of properties of women and Sudras was openly legalised by Vaishnava scriptures :
A wife, a son, and a slave, these three are declared to have no property; the wealth which they earn is (acquired) for him to whom they belong.

Thus, the unlawful confiscation of the properties of non-Brahman races was justified and fully sanctioned in the holy scriptures of Hinduism (or Brahmanism), and this act glorified. The Mahabharata states,
"The son of Ita then inquired: Tell me Vayu, to whom the earth, with its wealth, rightfully belongs to the Brahman or the Kshatriya? Vayu replied: All this whatever exists in the world, is the Brahmans property by right of primogeniture : this is known to those who are skilled in the laws of duty. It is his own which the Brahman eats, puts on, bestows. He is the chief of all the castes, the first-born and the most excellent. Just as the woman when she has lost her (first) husband takes her brother-in-law for a second; so the Brahman is the first resource in calamity; afterwards another may arise (Mahabharata)."
-- [ MBh.Saptaparvam, verse, 2755 ] [ cited in Sup ]
Summarising the situation, Swami Dharma Theertha wrote in his classic `History of Hindu Imperialism',
"Probably no other class of persons in any society ever combined in themselves all these advantages so exclusively as the Brahmans. It is equally doubtful if any other aristocratic class has ever exercised their privileges to the detriment of the common people so unscrupulously and for so long a period as these Brahman priests."
-- [ Tirth.113-114 ] [ cited at Sup ]
He further observes,
" No imperial power ever imposed on a weaker people a more ruthless and soul-destroying domination than the Brahmans did on the rest of their fellow citizens, and no race of superior men ever arrogated to themselves such haughty supremacy and false greatness as they have."
-- [ Tirth.163-164 ] [ Sup ]

[devapriya]

Friends,

Anticrap has given few quotes from Manusmirithi

As I have said Vedas belong to BCE5000 -1000. and these are Sruthis. Until Valmiki Ramayan and Mahabharat are PrePanini pre 5th Cen. BCE.

Manusmirithi is post Panini and please differenciate.

Tholkappiyam denies education to 4th Varna and Classifies duties of Brahmins, Kshyathrias and Vysias more clearly.

Please look at the Development of Agri based Social Growths and Non-Brahmin High Caste Hindus are the Major Benefaciaries of the Caste System, and was developed for them.

Devapriya

[dsath]

Your datings for various events in different threads are highly inconsistent mate.

[bis_mala]

There is no evidence that Tolkappiyam denied education to anyone.
The purpose of the treatise is to lay down rules for the Tamil language; not to grant or take away anyone's rights.

[mahadevan]

Friends,

solomon wrote :"Anticrap has given few quotes from Manusmirithi "
we all have eyes we can see that.

solomon wrote : "As I have said Vedas belong to BCE5000 -1000. and these are Sruthis. Until Valmiki Ramayan and Mahabharat are PrePanini pre 5th Cen. BCE. "
There is no scientific evidence that any of these documents happened before Indus valley civilization, even after the demise of the indus valley, the prakrits were not well developed so sanskrit/vedic was still not created. Sanskrit was created well after Paninni (ie., after 5 BCE accordinig to you) because Paninni gave the grammer for the language called 'chandasa' later the artificial language sanskrit adopted it for itself.



solomon wrote :"Tholkappiyam denies education to 4th Varna and Classifies duties of Brahmins, Kshyathrias and Vysias more clearly. "

That is blasphemy, 'payanthavan kannuku ellame payei', so for the vedic fanatics every thing they see has inhuman filth just like the vedas.

solomon wrote :"Please look at the Development of Agri based Social Growths and Non-Brahmin High Caste Hindus are the Major Benefaciaries of the Caste System, and was developed for them. "
Yeah right, what broad minded the brahmins were, they created the caste system for the benefit of others.

[devapriya]

Friends,

I have quoted barathiar on wrong projection of India outside.

Now same about it with Wrong Translations of Vedas.

Dravidian protogonist was Gilbert Slater and his book Translator Appadurai is another such, they have accepted that Vedas do not have Caste, again quoting Maxmuller.

The Major Beneficiaries of caste is UPPER Caste Non-Brahmin Land Lord and Rich, is History.

Devapriya

[bis_mala]

Wrong Translations of Vedas.

What wrong translation??


Dravidian protogonist was Gilbert Slater

How can Slater be a Dravidian protogonist?


they have accepted that Vedas do not have Caste,

Pl quote para and page.


The Major Beneficiaries of caste is UPPER Caste Non-Brahmin Land Lord and Rich,

Why do you say so? -- When they cannot get the pujaari job in the temple?

[devapriya]

[tscii:f07c3ebdab]Friends,

Maxmuller was appointed by British Church, from Plundered Money from India, to translate Vedas for the Convinience to Misiiionaries, details of this in any other Approprite Thread.

Maxmuller's Own letter- //Max Müller, in a letter to his wife wrote in 1886: 'The translation of the Veda will hereafter tell to a great extent on the fate of India and on the growth of millions of souls in that
country. It is the root of their religion, and to show them what the root is, I feel sure, is the only way of uprooting all that has sprung from it during the last 3 000 years.//

And Lot of mistakes, as Swami Daynanda was following him and attacking of his frauds, later he need to be very careful and still his translations were not fully appropriate. I SHALL give details shortly.

On his fradulant dating of Vedas Maxmuller himself
//Max Müller himself conceded the purely conjectural nature of the Vedic chronology, and in the last work published shortly before his death, The Six Systems of Indian Philosophy, admitted: 'Whatever may be the date of the Vedic hymns, whether 1500 or 15 000 BCE, they have their own unique place and stand by themselves in the literature of the world' //

So We need to be very cautious of meaninglessly attacking Indian Civilisation of its basics.

BISmalas and Mahadevans have problems in knowing Truths on Tholkappiyam . If you keep your Eyes Closed; World wont stop functioning. Tholkappiyam has rigorous caste classification including denying Divine Duties to 4th Varna and Denying Eduction to them.

Please read Literatrue; and come for discussion.

Devapriya
[/tscii:f07c3ebdab]

[bis_mala]

[tscii:9e64048675]
//Max Müller, in a letter in 1886: 'The translation of the Veda ................... It is the root of their religion, and to show them what the root is, I feel sure, is the only way of uprooting all that has sprung from it during the last 3 000 years.//


Maxie wrongly thought that Indian religious practices were based on the books called Vedas. Except a minority that went round chanting mantras using the methodology of the vedas, these books had no real application at all to the religious practices of the masses!! Maxie the Christian thought the natives of India apply the books in their daily religious practices (like the Christians apply the Bible ) which is false


//And Lot of mistakes,//

What mistakes and what was the impact of these mistakes??


On his fradulant dating of Vedas Maxmuller himself ................
//Max Müller himself conceded the purely conjectural nature of the Vedic chronology, and in the last work published shortly before his death, The Six Systems of Indian Philosophy, admitted: 'Whatever may be the date of the Vedic hymns, whether 1500 or 15 000 BCE, they have their own unique place and stand by themselves in the literature of the world' //


We need to be very cautious of ......

Yes, this is what we have been saying. The dates up to now by all these so called scholars are all conjectural. Thank you for admitting it [/tscii:9e64048675]

[devapriya]

[tscii:17c4de3076]Brahmins in Sangam Literature(200bce-200CE and Thokappiyam always referred as Parppan, Anthanar, Iyer etc., Now I GIVE from ThiruMurugatrupadai,Which in Depth gives us that They wear Punol with 9 Threads, do VEDIC Rituals of raising Tri-Fire Daily and Practice Vedas. And One of the Faces of Muruga ( Lord Muruga’s Birth Stories in Thirumurugatrupadai has inlfluences of Birth Stories of Marutham in Rig Veda) is for Vedic Brahmins is for Poet says.

4. ¾¢Õ§Åøõ
*ÕãýÚ ±ö¾¢Â *ÂøÀ¢É¢ý ÅÆ¡«Ð
*ÕÅ÷î ÍðÊ Àø§ÅÚ ¦¾¡øÌÊ
«Ú¿¡ý ¸¢ÃðÊ *ǨÁ ¿øĢ¡ñÎ
Ȣɢü ¸Æ¢ôÀ¢Â «Èý¿Å¢ø ¦¸¡û¨¸ 180
ãýÚŨ¸ì ÌÈ¢ò¾ Óò¾£î ¦ºøÅòÐ
*ÕÀ¢Èô À¡Ç÷ ¦À¡Ø¾È¢óÐ ÑÅÄ
´ýÀÐ ¦¸¡ñ¼ ãýÚÒâ Ññ»¡ñ
ÒÄÃ¡ì ¸¡Æ¸õ ÒÄà ¯Ë*
¯îº¢ì ÜôÀ¢Â ¨¸Â¢É÷ ¾üÒ¸úóÐ 185
¦ÈØò ¾¼ì¸¢Â «ÕÁ¨Èì §¸ûÅ¢
¿¡Å¢Âø ÁÕí¸¢ý ¿Å¢Äô À¡Ê,
Å¢¨ÃÔÚ ¿ÚÁÄ÷ ²ó¾¢ô ¦ÀâÐÅóÐ
²Ã¸ò ШȾÖõ ¯Ã¢Âý, «¾¡ «ýÚ Tjirumuru 178-189

I quote from TamilArignanar aru.Chinnaamy- Thamizar Samuthaya Varalaaaru – VANathi Pathippagam 1979, and it has former Speaker of Tamilnadu assembly and Secretary of EV.Ramasamy Naicker- K.RAsaram, a Scholar on his own right giving Preface.
“ வகுப்புப் பிரிவும் வருணாசிரம முறையும் ஆரியர்களிடம் இல்லை. அவர்கள் சென்ற வேறுநாடுகளிலும் இல்லை. இந்திய துணைக் கண்டத்தில் மட்டுமே உண்டு. உண்மையே1 ..

பார்ப்பனர், அரசர், வணிகர், வேளாளர் எனப் பகுத்து, காப்பியர் சமுதாய இயல் அமைக்கிறார். நால்வகைப் பிரிவையும் அவர்களின் கடமைகளையும் காப்பியர் குறிப்பிடுகிறார்.

«Ú Ũ¸ô Àð¼ À¡÷ôÀÉô Àì¸Óõ
³ Ũ¸ ÁÃÀ¢ý «Ãº÷ Àì¸Óõ
*Õ ãýÚ ÁÃÀ¢ý ²§É¡÷ Àì¸Óõ-

பார்ப்பனர்களுக்கு ஓதல், ஓதுவித்தல், வேட்டல், வேட்பித்தல், ஈதல், இரத்தல் என்னும் ஆறு தொழில்களைக் காப்பியர் விதிக்கிறார். அரசர்களுக்கு ஓதல், வேள்வி செய்தல், ஈதல், நாட்டைக் காத்தல், தீயோரைத் தண்டித்தல் முதலிய ஐந்து தொழில்கள் உண்டு என்கிறார். வணிகர்களுக்கு ஓதல், வேள்வி செய்தல், ஈதல், உழவு, கால்நடை பேணல், வணிகம் முதலிய ஆறுவகைத் தொழில்களை அமைக்கிறார். வேளாளர்க்கு ஓதல், ஈதல், உழவு, கால்நடை பேணல், வணிகம், மேலோர் மூவர்க்கும் ஏவல் புரிதல் என விதிக்கிரார்.

பூணூல், தண்ணீர்க் குண்டான், முக்கோல், ஆசனம் முதலிய பார்ப்பனர்களுக்
கு ரியனவாகும் மன்னர்களுக்கும் மக்களுக்கும் நல்லுரை கூறுவதும் அவர்களின் கடமையாகும். அவர்கள் அரசு புரிவதற்கும் உரிமை உடையவர்கள். மேலும், சமுதாயத்தின் முதல் மரியாதைக்கும் உரியவர்களாவர்.


á§Ä ¸Ã¸õ Ó째¡ø Á¨½§Â
Ôõ ¸¡¨Ä «ó¾½÷ìÌ ¯Ã¢Â. 71

அ󾽡Ç÷ìÌ «ÃÍ Å¨Ã× *ý§È. 83

பேணுதகு சிறப்பின் பார்ப்பான்.

ஆயுதம் ஏந்தும் உரிமை அரசர்களுக்கும் வணிகர்களுக்கும் மட்டுமே உண்டு. மற்றவகளுக்கு இல்லையென்கிறார் காப்பியர். வணிகர்களுக்கு அரசர்கள் போல் மலரும் மாலையும் உண்டு. வணிகர்கள், வியாபாரத்துடன் விவசாயமும் செய்து உணவுத் தான்யங்களை உற்பத்தி செய்தனர்.

*¨¼ *Õ Å¨¸§Â¡÷ «øÄÐ ¿¡Êý
À¨¼ Ũ¸ ¦ÀÈ¡«÷ ±ýÁÉ¡÷ ÒÄÅ÷. 77
¨Åº¢¸ý ¦ÀÚ§Á Å¡½¢¸ Å¡ú쨸.


¸ñ½¢Ôõ ¾¡Õõ ±ñ½¢É÷ ñ§¼. 80

¦Áö ¦¾Ã¢ Ũ¸Â¢ý ±ñ Ũ¸ ¯½Å¢ý
¦ºö¾¢Ôõ Ũá÷ «ô À¡Ä¡É. 79

வேளாளர்க்கு உழவுத் தொழில் தவிர வேறு தொழில் இல்லை என்பது காப்பியரின் முடிவு. ஆனால் அரசர்கள் விரும்பினால், படைக்கலம் பெற்று மாலை பூண்டு போர் வீரர்களாய் பணி புரியலாம்.

§ÅÇ¡ñ Á¡ó¾÷ìÌ ¯Øàñ «øÄÐ
*ø ±É ¦Á¡Æ¢À À¢È Ũ¸ ¿¢¸ú. 81

§ÅóРŢΠ¦¾¡Æ¢Ä¢ý À¨¼Ôõ ¸ñ½¢Ôõ
Å¡öó¾É÷ ±ýÀ «Å÷ ¦ÀÚõ ¦À¡Õ§Ç. 82
காப்பியரின் சமூக் இயலில் உழவன் கடையனாக்கப் பட்டான்; ஆனால் ய்ழுதுண்போர் உழுவித்து உண்போர் என இரண்டு பிரிவுகள் உண்டெனக் கூறிக் காப்பியரின்.. பக்கம் 44-46.

மேலும் கற்பு மணம் என்பதுற்கு திருமணச் சடங்குகளுடன், தகுதியுடையவனுக்கு, பெண் கொடுக்க உரிமையுள்ள பெற்றோர் கொடுக்கத் தலைவன் மணந்து கொள்வது என்று விளக்கம் தருகிறார். இத்திருமணச் சடங்கு அந்தணர், அரசர், வணிகர் ஆகிய முப்பிரிவினர்க்கே ஏற்பட்டது. பின்பு கீழ்ப்பட்ட வேளாளர் போன்ற மரபினர்க்கும் உரியன என்று விதிக்கப் பட்ட கால்மும் உண்டென்கிறார்.

¦À¡öÔõ ÅØ×õ §¾¡ýȢ À¢ýÉ÷
³Â÷ ¡ò¾É÷ ¸Ã½õ ±ýÀ.

¸üÒ ±ÉôÀÎÅÐ ¸Ã½¦Á¡Î Ò½Ã
¦¸¡ÇüÌ ¯Ã¢ ÁÃÀ¢ý ¸¢ÆÅý ¸¢Æò¾¢¨Â
¦¸¡¨¼ìÌ ¯Ã¢ ÁÃÀ¢§É¡÷ ¦¸¡ÎôÀ ¦¸¡ûÅЧÅ. 1

§Á§Ä¡÷ ãÅ÷ìÌõ Ò½÷ò¾ ¸Ã½õ
¸£§Æ¡÷ìÌ ¸¢Â ¸¡ÄÓõ ¯ñ§¼. 3

… காதல் வாழ்விற்கு பத்துப் பண்புகள் தேவை என்கிறார்; பிறப்பால் உயர்ந்த ஒத்த ஆணும் பெண்ணும் காமக்கூடத்தில் சந்திக்க இயலும் என்கிறார்.

À¢Èô§À ÌʨÁ ñ¨Á ñ¦¼¡Î
¯Õ× ¿¢Úò¾ ¸¡Á š¢ø
¿¢¨È§Â «Õ§Ç ¯½÷¦Å¡Î ¾¢Õ ±É
Ó¨ÈÔÈì ¸¢Çó¾ ´ôÀ¢ÉРŨ¸§Â. 25

´ý§È §Å§È ±ýÚ *Õ À¡øÅ¢ý
´ýÈ¢ ¯Â÷ó¾ À¡ÄÐ ¨½Â¢ý
´ò¾ ¸¢ÆÅÛõ ¸¢Æò¾¢Ôõ ¸¡ñÀ
Á¢ì§¸¡ý ¢Ûõ ¸Ê Ũà *ý§È. 2- பக்கம் 48-49//
This is just sample and many more are there in Tholkaapiyar.

À¡÷ôÀ¡÷ «È¢Å÷ ±ýÚ *Å÷ ¸¢ÇÅ¢
¡÷ìÌõ Ũá÷ ¡ô¦À¡Î Ò½÷ó§¾. 189

*ýÀÓõ ¦À¡ÕÙõ «ÈÛõ ±ýÈ¡íÌ
«ý¦À¡Î Ò½÷ó¾ ³ó¾¢¨½ ÁÕí¸¢ý
¸¡Áì Üð¼õ ¸¡Ïõ ¸¡¨Ä
Á¨È§Â¡÷ §¾±òÐ ÁýÈø ±ð¼Ûû
Ð¨È «¨Á ¿ø ¡úò Ш½¨Á§Â¡÷ *Âø§À.1

«ÁÃ÷¸ñ ÓÊÔõ «Ú Ũ¸Â¡Ûõ

§Á§Ä¡÷ ӨȨÁ ¿¡øÅ÷ìÌõ ¯Ã¢ò§¾. 31
ÁýÉ÷ À¡í¸¢ý À¢ý§É¡÷ ÌÀ. 32
¯Â÷󧾡÷ìÌ ¯Ã¢Â µò¾¢É¡É. 33

µ¾ø À¨¸§Â àÐ *¨Å À¢Ã¢§Å. 27
«ÅüÚû,
µ¾Öõ àÐõ ¯Â÷󧾡÷ §ÁÉ. 28
Here Thuthu is only for Brahmins and KSHYTHRIAS, AND Education is only for Upper Castes. 4th Varna is denied of education.

Still more is there. As I have quoted Barathiyar- to say ill of Indic and Tamil Tradition is of No-use, We with our Education should overcome it, the Untouchability practiced by Upper Caste Non-Brahmins neither is dependent on Vedas or Sangam but because of habitual, and by not asking Caste to anybody and Caste based reservations being linked with Financial status and slow Elimination are the solutions.

Bismala and Mahadevan only show their lack of education of what Sangam-Tholkaapiyam -Manimekhalai has, and Valluvar rightly says:
//402. ¸øÄ¡¾¡ý ¦º¡ü¸¡ ÓÚ¾ø ӨĢÃñÎõ
þøÄ¡¾¡ý ¦Àñ¸¡Óü ÈüÚ.
Unlearned man aspiring speech 402
Is breastless lady's love-approach.// Lady without breasts love would be Unattractive and same is Uneducated trying to say about the Literature- what they do not know.

I WELCOME Intercaste Marriages and every Citizen becoming Vegetarians as Valluvar says and all read the necessary Ahamams and become Archakars.

But 90% of the temples in Tamilnadu are MAriamman and Kali temples and Archakars are Non-Brahmins only. Govt pay for 90% of the Archakars on a Consolidated Rs.300-800 per month ( Lessthan 10-20 US$), Is this You are asking for? The Average age of Catholic Priest of America is above 50 years in spite of pay of morethan 3000$ due to lack of Interest for the next generation to take that post.

Please maintain a Decorum. Vedas belong t0 5000-1000BCE and Sangam and Tholkappyam to 200BCE to 200CE. We live 2006, instead of blaming our mistakes on pasts,Let us look at positive traits.

Devapriya.
[/tscii:17c4de3076]

[bis_mala]

There were no castes as such during Sangam. There were "kudis" not the same as caste. They freely married between different professions. Thus a pujaari ( paarppaan) guy could marry a fisherman.s daughter.

For north, look at vEdavyaasan.(I believe he ws S.Indian). His mom was a "fisher=woman". vAAlmiki was a hunter. They were nevertheless "BrahmanaNa" as they realised the "Brahman" or god. Such was the situation in n.India; as it was in the south.

Casteism developed later. Please do not put the cart before the horse!!

[devapriya]

Dear Friends,

Bismals lives on a Island of foolishness.

Thani Tamil Chavunist writers such as Pavanar, Maraimlai Aadigal all took out verses referring to their Castes and claimed that they are the Oldest Tamil tribes.

Pavanar's interpretation of meaning of Marai - ANthanar- Parppan and Iyer all to Brahmins is given.

It is because of Thani Tamil movement writers using Caste from Sangam- Tamil nadu has become more Caste Ridden in last 40 years.

SO Caste is abundant in Sangam Literatur and Tholkappiyar says no education to 4th Caste. Tholkappiyar praises Burning of Women with Dead Husband- Sathi, not in Vedas and not even in Manusmrithi.

Devapriya

[anticrap]

Dear Friends,

Bismals lives on a Island of foolishness.

Thani Tamil Chavunist writers such as Pavanar, Maraimlai Aadigal all took out verses referring to their Castes and claimed that they are the Oldest Tamil tribes.

Pavanar's interpretation of meaning of Marai - ANthanar- Parppan and Iyer all to Brahmins is given.

It is because of Thani Tamil movement writers using Caste from Sangam- Tamil nadu has become more Caste Ridden in last 40 years.

SO Caste is abundant in Sangam Literatur and Tholkappiyar says no education to 4th Caste. Tholkappiyar praises Burning of Women with Dead Husband- Sathi, not in Vedas and not even in Manusmrithi.

Devapriya

Why dont you quote some examples.?

[devapriya]

Dear Friends,

I am not really happy about Casteism. It can be abolished only if we stop asking it in Schools, and for Jobs. But the really Underprevilaged must be helped. BUT The present system is not really that.

As for my quoting- when Bismala and Mahadevan bluffed Tholkappiyam does not have Caste and that It denies Education to the Fourth, I have given the proofs and how Tamil Scholars look at it.

I feel Past Scholars with Dubious writings be ignored and stop saying Bad against them, by ignoring them. If you insist I can quote

Devapriya

[pizzalot]

Dear Friends,

I am not really happy about Casteism. It can be abolished only if we stop asking it in Schools, and for Jobs.

So these jobs and education can be taken by already rich and educated.

[pizzalot]

Dear Friends,

As for my quoting- when Bismala and Mahadevan bluffed Tholkappiyam does not have Caste and that It denies Education to the Fourth, I have given the proofs and how Tamil Scholars look at it.

Devapriya

So since it is mentioned by tamils, you say it is correct ?