SURNAMES

[bis_mala]

[tscii:850761fade]SURNAMES.

Surnames are important in many places of the world, particularly China and Europe. Europeans place their surnames as the last word of their names whilst the Chinese place them as the first word. If a Chinese carries a name : “Zhu Rong Ji”, then Zhu is the surname; but for Tony Blair, ‘Blair’ is the surname. Thus if you address the Chinese as Mr Rong Ji, you are dead wrong (dead being the terminology preferred by Bush).

Chinese history reveals that they were first a matriarchal society and later became patriarchal. Hence in the earliest of times, children forming a group or tribe took the mother’s surname. To avoid intermarriages within the same clan, the clan sustained the surname as an important label.

There are about 8000 surnames in China. Surnames, (besides the mothers’ names in the remotest period of history ) were totems worshipped by the tribe. Thus if your tribe worshipped the horse, you will have the horse (“ma” in Chinese) surname. Other things used were: (1) state; (2) fief (3) official post (4) occupation [ Englishmen have a lot of surnames showing occupation, such as Smith, Goldsmith, Black (blacksmith) ,(5) landmarks of residences, As children inherited the posts or followed the same occupations of the parents and grandparents etc., they too used the post name as surname.

There was a family that fled to escape punishment from the emperor and changed its surname after arriving at a remote region of China, The surname the family adopted was the name of the forest fruit on which they lived for some time whilst hiding .

Did Tamils or Indians have surnames or kudippeyar at all in their long history? Your views are welcome.
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[Bärlin]

The Veddas of Sri Lanka also used to follow the mother's side until the singhala gov forced them to do it other way.

http://vedda.org/

I did not visit this page for about three years but it was very interesting to me. There it was told about vel worship and about Murugan, their mountain god and so on. Mala please have a look at it. You may understand a lot of things that I don't understand.

[Sandeep]

In Kerala also Matriarchal system is followed and we follow the format of <mothers family name> <given name>.

[bis_mala]

In Kerala also Matriarchal system is followed and we follow the format of <mothers family name> <given name>.

Sandeep, can you give some examples. It may be easy to grasp if you select some famous Keralites and give their names and surnames (mom's family names).

Thayilazikaththu Padmanaabha PaNikkar. - Is the first name a mother's family name?

V.T. Lalithaa - viLappaakaththu thOppilviidu lalithaa. (is there any mother's name in this woman's name?

How did the matriarchal system in Kerala originate? One Kerala muslim girl told me it came from Arabia. True?

Thanks.

[Alan]

My! I've always been a laughing stock in the Biology Class. My surname is Gill. Should I speak more?

[bis_mala]

My! I've always been a laughing stock in the Biology Class. My surname is Gill. Should I speak more?


Gills are from Punjab?

Like Ranjit Singh Gill, who has shortened his name to: R.S.Gill. Sounds English when shortened.

[Sandeep]

Sandeep, can you give some examples. It may be easy to grasp if you select some famous Keralites and give their names and surnames (mom's family names).

Thayilazikaththu Padmanaabha PaNikkar. - Is the first name a mother's family name?

V.T. Lalithaa - viLappaakaththu thOppilviidu lalithaa. (is there any mother's name in this woman's name?

In kerala Matriarchal system Mother's family name is used not Mother's name. This is very important because Mothers name is in feminine gender while her family name is gender independant (unlike Hindi, Malayalam has 3 genders like English where you have 'he', 'she' and 'it').

Eg:

Thayilazikaththu Padmanaabha Panikkar
Thayilazikaththu - Family name (Gender independent)
Padmanaabha - Given name (Masculine gender)
Panikkar - Caste

Vilappaakaththu Thoppilveedu Lalitha
Vilappaakaththu Thoppil (Wood farm) veedu (House) - Family name (Gender independent)
Lalitha - Given name (Masculine gender)

So the literal translation would be "Lalitha of the wood farm house Vilappaakaththu". I am unable to translate Vilappaakaththu (limitation of English script in representing Malayalam).

So in short only the person himself (herself) can tell you if the family name is that of father's or mother's. But it should be Mother's as I have not seen keralites keeping fathers family name (They keep father's name).



How did the matriarchal system in Kerala originate? One Kerala muslim girl told me it came from Arabia. True?
Thanks.

I dont know of any history of matriarchichal system among Muslims. Its followed only among the Kshathriya castes (1/3rd of Hindu population). As I know it came into effect during the Chola dynasties expeditions on Cheras. The kshathriyas (Nairs, Menons, Panickars, etc there are hell lot of categories) in chera kingdom had to change (gradually, may have taken decades) the family structure to survive the depletion in the number of men in families (who where searched and executed by Chola empire). The matriarchichal system would have solidified by the namboothiri, nair relations ("Sambandham") also.

[Alan]

My! I've always been a laughing stock in the Biology Class. My surname is Gill. Should I speak more?


Gills are from Punjab?

Like Ranjit Singh Gill, who has shortened his name to: R.S.Gill. Sounds English when shortened.

yep, I'm a Punjabi.
Gills are organs by which fish breathe. So, whenver 'gill ' is mentioned, I've to face stares, because I did my schooling in states outside Punjab & there weren't any Gill in my class.

[Sandeep]

Alan,

With K.P.S Gill so popular I wonder why you got so much of stares.

"Bar attender give four Gills of beer" :lol:

Gill is also a unit for measuring volume. I thing 1/4 th of a pint.

[Lambretta]

Alan,

With K.P.S Gill so popular I wonder why you got so much of stares.
KPS Gill?? :? Tat ex-DSP/DIG of police who behaved inappropriately w/ a Lady IAS officer at a party (read abt it yrs ago)?? If so then Notorious shud be the word......!
Neways, if Alan lived in the South, I guess KPS Gill wudn't hav been so well-known, as the only Sardarji well-known in the South was Kushwant Singh (until Manmohan Singh became the PM! :wink: :P )

[Sandeep]

[tscii:ee4432832a]Let’s not forget Gill (Ex DGP) was very instrumental in bringing an end to Terrorism in Punjab.

Yes he misbehaved (gave a pat on a ladies back) during a party after he had a few "gills". ;)

I'm not supporting him but he may have just crossed the line (after a few pints lines are blur) under the influence of alcohol. Later he publicly apologized for his behavior.
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[Lambretta]

[tscii]Let’s not forget Gill (Ex DGP) was very instrumental in bringing an end to Terrorism in Punjab.

Yes he misbehaved (gave a pat on a ladies back) during a party after he had a few "gills". ;)
Actually I rem. it was backside! Which is y it was considered very offensive! :x


I'm not supporting him but he may have just crossed the line (after a few pints lines are blur) under the influence of alcohol. Later he publicly apologized for his behavior.
Yea I rem. tat but after tat lady filed a case against him/threatened to sue him or sumthing.......neways, 'nuff of this digression! Me & my ability to digress in every thread, this is getting to be an addiction now! :oops: :roll:

[Alan]

Alan,

With K.P.S Gill so popular I wonder why you got so much of stares.

"Bar attender give four Gills of beer" :lol:

Gill is also a unit for measuring volume. I thing 1/4 th of a pint.

The fifth & sixth graders hadn't known of Gill as a surname! I think you learn about fishes & those stuff in 6th , right? I don't remember exactly.

[Alan]

Alan,

With K.P.S Gill so popular I wonder why you got so much of stares.
KPS Gill?? :? Tat ex-DSP/DIG of police who behaved inappropriately w/ a Lady IAS officer at a party (read abt it yrs ago)?? If so then Notorious shud be the word......!
Neways, if Alan lived in the South, I guess KPS Gill wudn't hav been so well-known, as the only Sardarji well-known in the South was Kushwant Singh (until Manmohan Singh became the PM! :wink: :P )

Well, yes, I was in Cochin Naval Base for a while when my dad was posted there.

Of course the Army fellows knew Kushwant Singh & Manmohan Singh but not many knew KPS Gill. For most of them ( esp civilians), the only Sikh name they know is Singh.

Interestingly, the "Ezhava" community of Kerala use "Singh " in their names. Now, that's quite a co-incidence!

[Sandeep]

Interestingly, the "Ezhava" community of Kerala use "Singh " in their names. Now, that's quite a co-incidence!

:? This is new info for me. Is it common or are you saying out of a specific experience.

[Lambretta]

Interestingly, the "Ezhava" community of Kerala use "Singh " in their names. Now, that's quite a co-incidence!

:? This is new info for me.
For me too! :shock: :?

[a.ratchasi]

Of course the Army fellows knew Kushwant Singh & Manmohan Singh but not many knew KPS Gill. For most of them ( esp civilians), the only Sikh name they know is Singh.

Aren't all male Sikhs required to carry the name 'Singh' while the ladies, 'Kaur'?

I was under the impression that the last names such as Gill, Deol, Dhaliwal are caste names. Correct me if I am wrong, Alan.

[Lambretta]

Of course the Army fellows knew Kushwant Singh & Manmohan Singh but not many knew KPS Gill. For most of them ( esp civilians), the only Sikh name they know is Singh.

Aren't all male Sikhs required to carry the name 'Singh' while the ladies, 'Kaur'?
Some men hav 2 surnames, usually Singh followed by another surname.........for eg. I had a couple of Sikh friends in Sing. whose surnames were G******* Singh Ahluwalia & G****** Pal Walia........also knew of a Prof. of French at Hyd. whose name was A*** Singh Bhalla/Balla(?)....


I was under the impression that the last names such as Gill, Deol, Dhaliwal are caste names. Correct me if I am wrong, Alan.
I think so too.......actor Dharmendra's real name was Dharam Singh Deol & he was from a 'Jat' caste (not sure wat exactly it is & I don't wanna digress into caste discussions here! :)).......

[Sandeep]

You guys have me totally confused. :? :?

Alan you have a lot of explaning to do. :evil:


Others please wait (CONTRRROL.....) :x

[Alan]

Well, well, well- I'll try to explain to the best of my limited knowledge

Sikhism is a relatively new religion, compared to Hinduism & Christianity & Islam. So, when a new religion is formed, all the things from scratch has to be propounded.....hmmmm....all that's too long.

Ok, I'll come to the point, I'm not sure if ppl know beyond Guru Nanak, the founder of Sikhism, because many ppl I have interacted with did not know that. Ok, for everyone's info, there were , in total, 16 Gurus. It was Guru Gobind Singh (the tenth Guru) who gave the title "Singh" to males & "Kaur" to females. This was to 'free' the Sikhs from the 'caste system' which was prevelant in India during that period, because in India, a person's name reveals his or caste & creed.


But later on, the Sikh Surnames came to be known from the profession they did. The two broad categories are the 1. Jats & 2. Khattris.

The Jats were mostly land-owners, zamindaars , farmers and even warriors while the Khattris did mostly merchandise.

I don't see the need for two surnames. Some ppl do it in cases where they have mixed clan parentage.
I can add Singh & Gill to my name if I want.
"Gill" is the surname of the Jat Community.

Now-a days, ppl add their respective surname/family name instead of Singh.

I hope I've explained this clearly. If you have more doubts about the Sikh Surnames, I may have to ask my Grandpa.

[Sandeep]

Everyday we learn somethig new.

Thanks Alan :)

[bis_mala]

Now-a days, ppl add their respective surname/family name instead of Singh.

I've come across. Majority of them have cropped their hair and removed their turban in Malaysia. They are known here as "modern Singhs!"

Names will be something like:

Dalip Dhillon!
Takur Randhawa!!
Jagjit S. Khosa...

- source: telephone directory.

[Lambretta]

- source: telephone directory.
:lol: :D

[Alan]

Now-a days, ppl add their respective surname/family name instead of Singh.

I've come across. Majority of them have cropped their hair and removed their turban in Malaysia. They are known here as "modern Singhs!"

Names will be something like:

Dalip Dhillon!
Takur Randhawa!!
Jagjit S. Khosa...

- source: telephone directory.


Yes, that way, even I'm modern! I don't wear a Turban.
I think the Jat Community was the first to do that.
My dad & Uncles quit wearing the turban & cropped off their hair while they were in College, in the 60s.
My grandad still wears the turban.

[Saya Setju]

what is the meaning of singh and kaur? Something similar thiru and thirumathi?

[Shakthiprabha.]

Its is surprisingly a strange thing to note, Tamil brahmin community, during the eve of SACRED thread ceremony, christen the boy/man.

They have, "SHARMA" as their surname.

Does that explain anything? I am not sure. But my cousin's name, father's surname etc actually (VEDICALLY SPEAKING :roll:) IS 'SHARMA'.

I am not sure how this happens!!

[Lambretta]

Its is surprisingly a strange thing to note, Tamil brahmin community, during the eve of SACRED thread ceremony, christen the boy/man.

They have, "SHARMA" as their surname.
Really?!! I was never christened as such when I had my thread ceremony! :huh: :?
AFA I'm aware among southies, only Telugu Brms. hav Sharma as a surname (acutally pronounced SARMA).......


I am not sure. But my cousin's name, father's surname etc actually (VEDICALLY SPEAKING :roll:) IS 'SHARMA'.
I am not sure how this happens!!
Um......surely they cudn't, by ne chance, be of Andhra origin?? :? :)

[ssanjinika]

I belong to the Tam Bhram community and our family name is Sharma.But I always though that the family name was not really used.Usually its the fathers name that gets added as the surname.

P.S didnt know that all tam bhrams were christned Sharma.Have my doubts on that SP :P.

[Ronnie The Dutch]

So you are all christians when you get christened? A very good solution to merge both the religions. :lol:

What is this sacred thread? I did not had such a ceremony!

[Shakthiprabha.]

yeah ssanjinika,

Our family name is Sharma too .
We (ladies ) dont add it with our names though.

Lambretta,

def not andra origin. I think this has to be checked. Not sure if it takes after any NORTH origin though :roll: :sad: :? :?:

[Lambretta]

*DIGR*
What is this sacred thread? I did not had such a ceremony!
Well, u cudn't unless ur father is a Brhm. (in ur case its only ur mother, as u said.)
Neways, this wud come under caste discussion which wud be unallowed as well digressive here....so if u wnat more info. on this, I'll PM u. :)

[Sandeep]

//
AFA I'm aware among southies, only Telugu Brms.
//

I know of some Konkani/tulu (Karnataka) brahmins having sharma.

[Anoushka]

Alan: Were you in Southern Naval Command, Kochi? When was this? I had friends there years ago.... and I used to love visiting them :)

[bis_mala]

//
AFA I'm aware among southies, only Telugu Brms.
//

I know of some Konkani/tulu (Karnataka) brahmins having sharma.

I know one Punjabi Hindu family, (no connection with any Southie) having the surname SHARMA.

There was a SHARMA (North Ind) - Justice of Appeal in the Federal Court (FJ) (may be now retired) whose judgment and rationale were cited to Chief Justice Yong Pung Haw of Singapore in a case. Quite a number of judgments by him published in the Malayan Law Journal.

Papanasam Sivan also a Sharma: I read in one article that he was related to late VN Janaki, wife of makkaL thilakam MGR.

Does anyone know the meanings of:

(i) Sharma ( I do not find it in my Sanskrit dictionary)
(ii) Kaur