Tamil's elderliness to world languages

[F.S.Gandhi vandayar]

Hello, Friends :!: And dearest foes!! How are you all :?: I regret for my unavailability and not participating in the debate in "Tamil is elder to Sanskrit thread" for such a long time! I was held up with my project & some access problem one month back in the hub! And When I entered today I found the thread is closed :!:

It is great pleasure to note that Mr.Aravindhan, Mr. Mahadevan & of course Mr. Idiappam and others have made the discussions alive without stagnation! Thanks a lot!

I may give my views after going through all the stuff placed there during my absence, then and there in my future posts.

Sir.Isac Newton found gravitational force. Albert Einsteen proved this force is not applicable to space. Einsteen is not against Newton but substantiated Newtons law with some more evidences. Stephen Hawking substantiated still more the Newtons law.We talk about Tamil's antiquity. Scholars of 1850s & 1930s formulated the base of world history telling originating from Tamil culture. They are substantiated by scholars of 1950s & 2000s with their new findings. The difference in their findings is due to subject matter and not their interpretations and it conforms the same. It is immaterial to reject findings based on time.

Alexander Grahambell found electricity from sky flash. He could not be able to make all the solutions for electricity :!: But Later Thomas Alva Edison made and substantially many scientists contributed for electricity :!: The horizon may vary. But the base of conclusion is same. Yesteryear scholars found some truth. Their horizon has some limitations. But present day scholars have substantiated and touched new horizons.

In both the above two cases there is no contradiction in findings but we find contributions made to each other with some more truths in vivid manner.

At the same time new fresh look into the same findings will give immortal truths :!: The interpretation should not change but deciphering should continue. This is what you call scientific analysis :!:

Quoting scholar's decipherment is to support our views :!: Tarnishing his personality for his shortcomings does not serve anything and this kind treacherers' foolhardiness won't work! :!: Paavanar's shortcomings in word's research have miraculously overcome by Mr.P.Aruli and this does not mean Aruli is contradictory to Pavanar but only means that he is complimentary.

Sankam is pure tamil word.Just pronouncing 'Chankam' as 'sankam' does not make that word as Sanskrit. 'Poosai' = Poo + sai means 'Do with flower'. By turning 'Poosai' into 'Pooja'/Poojai does not mean it is derived from Sanskrit Whereas Sanskrit does not have single meaning/synonym based on this word!One of our friend(Solomon & Ancheneyan are same :!:) played with Pakuthi/ Vikuthi (from false website) in the same way. I ask him to give some more Sanskrit words with this root which he cannot but in tamil we can.

Kazhakam, Koodal,Avaiyam,Aayam are synonyms for Sankam. The timeline of using this words may be different but they were all used with same meaning. There are lot of "oru porut kilavikal" (synonyms) in tamil. Tamil gave letters to those languages who don't have letters & tamil gave words to those languages who don't have words is the history! :!:

Let us go through the etymology of "Kazhakam" :

Ra-two types, La-three types in tamil is used to distinguish the meaning of words from same roots and fixed during Tholkappiar days. I have already given several examples regarding this.
Illustration : Maram-tree – root 'mara','maraththuppoe' – stand against something
Marram(vallina 'ra')- Veeram-Courage –root 'Mara'- a quality of stand against something. In the both the cases the core/root meaning is same but used for different things of different walks of life.

Readers can find the same type of pattern in Three types of 'La' also. After all pronounciation is natural man made and that is why so many languages in the world were formulated!

"Kazhakam"- root is 'Kala' (small la) which means 'mix'. Kalakkam,kalam, kalambakam,kalakam, kalar,kalavi,kalappai,kalai are some of the words from this root –all contains 'mix' as core meaning. Kal, Kalai have also meanings as mixture of various sands,reading various(mixture) knowledge, mixture of man/things and his emotions/nature and so on.

Kala is consonant starting word. It should have had vowel starting when originated naturally. i.e, 'Ala' only turned as 'Kala'(A,E,Uo suttu olikal are man's first language!)
Alakku,Alaikazhi,Alankaaram,Alanku,Alankolam,Alasu ,Alambal,Alavu,Ali(Mixture of Male & Female) are some of the words with 'Ala' root Which also have 'Mix' as core meaning.

'Kala'(middle la)- Kalam,Porkkalam – Mixing of two armies to fight each other, Nerkalam-Mixing of paddy from various fields, Kalaththiram-Wife- a lady mixing with his husband, Kali-Enjoy with all around & Kalai-a plant mixed with paddy are some of the words of this root having core meaning mixing.

Kazhakam(Big la)-an assembly of intellectuals. Kazhal-silampu- a mixture of pearls/diamonds.Kazhani-Field containing mud(mixture of carbonized plants & mud). Kazhi-a mixture of wastes.

For Tamil pandits it is customary that if they don't find some words in literary works they reject them as foreign words.They comfortably forget colloquial roots :!: 'Chaappiduthal'(eating) & 'Sirippu'(laughing),Vidayam(Vishayam)have never been used in sankam anthology/any other literary works. Is it correct to reject them as foreign words? :?: There are lot of words which have never been used in literary works. Hence it is illogical to conclude words etymology based on literary works :!:

All world languages formulated their own words from the available roots of oldest language and it is conformly tamil since the earliest inscriptions of world only found in tamil and the earliest organized language is tamil. The roots of any word of any language can be hopefully explained by tamil!

I show one example. Malayalam never existed before 1000 years. It is a tamil dialect.When Portukeese came Kerala before 400 years they brought Tea seeds. Malayalees invented new word 'Chayam' representing the coloured substance.The same is Chaaya in north India. Here the root is tamil 'Chai' & Chai,Chayal, Chayai(Shade) are some of the words from this root representing 'replica'. Colour is also a replica of someshade in nature.

'Vedham' has root 'Vei' / Vae(nedil) means 'hide'. When there is no hidden thing due to light it is called 'Vei+el' –Veyyil, no hide-Sunlight. Vei (Otran-spy who hides and act), Veithal /Veivu–Hide (Koorai veithal), Veyul-Porvai(a blanket used while sleeping)are some of the words from this root. Sanskrit does not have single parallel words from this root! 'Vetha Viyasar' is a 'dravidian' as per fifth Vedham( message by 14 th century CE-Sri Villiputthoorar Bharatham) "Mahabarath"s terminology and he organized vedhas during 100-150 CE(AD) keeping in his mind about tamil's organized structure.

Hence instead of picking out Vedhic presence in Tamil, Vedhic protagonists should pick tamil elements in four Vedhas, 18 Puranas, two Ithikaasas & Akamaas! Without tamil's influence there is no Rig Vedha. Other three Vedhas contain original Vedhic Tradition except Rig Vedha which contains only tamil culture. This is not my view. I have already specified this in this thread quoting various scholars :!: There are 6 types of religions in India (Thiruvasakam). Vedhic tradition is one of them strenghthened by tamil Siva & Vinnava worship during 3rd & 4th century CE and during 7th & 8th century CE it attained its peak by Guptas dynasty (Thevanakari script also was invented by 8th Century CE)entered into tamil land during 6th century CE & got deterioration during Muslim invasion. In fact Tamil protected Vedhic traditions during Muslim rule.

Hindu- the word never exist anywhere in the above Vedhic traditions! :!: Manikavasakar coined that word and after several centuries passed, during 9th & 10th century it went to Kashmir.

I quote from the book " The siva sutra-Vimarsini of Ksemaraja- translated into English by P.T. Srinivasa Iyengar, p-7.

From during the later period of 8th century ACE(period of VasuGupta who wrote comments for siva sutra) to 11th century ACE(period of abanava Gupta and Shamaraja- followers of VasuGupta) siva/Inthu religion called "Praththiya Pinknai"prevailed in Kashmir.

The same religion is called "elaku veesa paasu patham"in Koorchara kingdom.(ibid p.19) From then onwards "Hindu" the word has been used.

I could not avoid speaking about religions by virtue of it significance in Sanskrit history.


f.s.gandhi

[F.S.Gandhi vandayar]

Dear Friends :!:

As Mr. Aravindhan said in his message that Languages structural form plays major role in grouping languages.Hindi is basically a tamilian language and you can fill up simply tamil sentences into Hindi sentence :!:

Nearly 75% of Words of hindi are shrinked form of tamil. Day today usage words like tikae,Bole,sellana & patna are tamil Thakum(sari),palukku,sellu,pati respectively.

As I have already told, tamil culture spread from south to north,south to north west,south to east and south to north east.

Earlier I told about Japanese connection and Japanese language still has no similarity of single world language except tamil. Now I want to show that African & South Asian connections of tamil culture.

Lets us see What Mr.Hamori an African linguistic and historien says :

Chief characteristic of Tamil, the main Dravidian dialect.
1. agglutinative in structure like Ural Altaic
2. relational and non relational nouns
3. every pronoun case has a pronominal suffix/prefix like Ural-Altaic
4. the first syllable receives the accent, like Uralic.
5. first person plural has inclusive and exclusive forms.
6. there are only two numbers plural & singular. like Ural-Altaic
7. no gender in pronouns like Ural-Altaic.
8. No relative pronoun <?>
9. There are 8 case endings in nouns and post positions.

So far the most ambitious, the most promising, and most convincing theory is that of Uralian and Altaic relationship with Tamil. Not only linguistic but anthropological, ethnographic, archeological and general historic considerations points towards this direction. This theory under the term "Scythian" was first proposed by Caldwell in 1856, and more serious attempts to support it and to develop it further were made by F.O. Schroder, T. Burrow, and K.Menges. Complete lexical evidences, plus the Keltiminar Culture (next to Aral Sea) of Khorezm points to the same important contacts between the "Ural-Altaian"and Tamil people.
There are also comparisons of Tamil with ancient Elamite of ancient Eastern Messopotamia and Iran, which also have been often linked to Uralic and Altaic. This indicates a north-south chain of similar agglutinative, genderless languages from northern Europe to India. Even the Russian Tolstov,in his excavations of Khorezmia mentioned the many north-south and eastern links with this Tamil ancient culture.


Let us see what Dr.Willeke Wendrich, Assistant Professor of Near Eastern Languages and Cultures tells about tamil culture :
We just finished the eighth excavation season at Berenike, a harbor town on the Red Sea coast founded in the third century BCE and abandoned in the sixth century ACE It is a settlement through which an important part of the trade between the Roman Empire and the Far East passed. Most of our evidence for long distance trade comes from botanical analysis, but we also have important results from the analysis of beads, textiles, and pottery. Textual evidence for long-distance contacts is one Tamil-Brahmi graffito and a bilingual Greek-Palmyrene inscription.

Similarly, Chinese historical sources which refer to the maritime traders bringing typical South Indian products to China as far back as 7th Century B.C.E, 'were generally regarded with incredulity.' These accounts have now received striking confirmation by the discovery in the Philippines of a number of Iron age finds bearing close resemblance to objects found in South India of about the same period - the first millennium(1000) B.C.

(According to Paul Palliot there is evidence in Chinese literature of diplomatic relations between South Indian Courts and the Chinese Empire as early as the 2nd Century B.C.E. A Chinese writer, Pau Kou who lived at the end of the 1st century, mentions that in the time of the Hun Emperor the Chola Kings sent ambassadors to China. - K. M. Pannikar "India and China", pp. 17, 18. )

"Professor Beyer conducted a remarkable series of excavations during the years 1926 to 1930, and the evidence has been summed up by R.B.Dixon, who did a first-hand examination of the objects brought to light by Prof. Beyer. Among the finds were a large variety of iron weapons and implements and glass beads and bangles made in the Tamil country." (K.A.N.Sastri).

I shall quote what Dixon has to say of these:
"Now both the iron and glass objects are similar to, and in some cases identical with, the prehistoric glass and iron finds in the South of India. They occur in the dolmen tombs and urns which are found by hundreds and thousands, and which almost antedate the historic Chola, Chera, Pandyan kingdoms whose history goes several centuries back before Christian era. As finds of similar glass bead. and bangles have recently been excavated in the Malay Peninsula, in dolmen tombs in Java and in North Borneo, the inference is inescapable that we have clear evidence of trade contact with the Northern Philippines and Southern India, running well back into the first millennium(1000) B.C.E.

"The extensive trade and colonisation and later conquests of South Indian kingdoms in Sumatra and Java as well as in Indo-China in the early centuries of the Christian era, of course, are well known. This new material, however, seems to make it clear that this was far from being the beginning of such contacts, but rather the last stages in an association reaching as far as the Northern Philippines which had begun many centuries before."

About Adichanallur

At Adichanallur, an ancient site on the banks of the Tambraparani in the Tinnevely district, extensive prehistoric urn burials and iron implements related to those found in the Philippines and Palestine have been unearthed. A remarkable find was the three-pronged fork or trident of iron. Many such tridents were discovered at Adichanallur. This evidence suggests that the worship of Murugan or Velan, the son of Siva (known as the God of Kataragama in Ceylon), was popular in the Tamil country even in those remote times. This Muruga worship would appear to have been carried by the Tamils to Palestine and Syria in the West, to Ceylon in the South, and to the distant Philippines across the Indian and Pacific Oceans.

In 1200 B.C at Adichanallur, the Tamils were found to have cultivated rice, and it was in this region that the iron industry had its origin. There is every evidence to prove that the Tamils were the earliest people to introduce the cultivation of rice and the use of iron implements to the countries in the West as well as in South East Asia.

In support of this contention I would quote two distinguished authorities -

Piggott in his "Prehistoric India., page 43 (Pelican Books, 1952), says with regard to rice,

"It seems probable that rice cultivation began earlier in India than it did in China and that the knowledge reached the latter country about 2000 B.C.".

With regard to the centre of origin of iron, I give an extract from the Bulletin of the British Iron and Steel Federation,1949. Sir William Larke, Director of the British Iron and Steel Federation, says -

"The centre of origin is variously placed in India, where there are historical traditions and remains indicating a highly developed iron culture. Hyderabad and Trichinopoly are considered by many to have been the centres of production of wootz..... This steel was noted for centuries, being carried by merchants from India to Damascus and Toledo.."

It will be noted that both these sites are in South India (Deccan). Sir William gives the date of this origin of the iron age as 1400 to 1500 B.C.E The iron implements found in the Adichanallur site about the same period, and the transport of iron hoes and tridents to distant countries such as Palestine and the Philippines confirms this conclusion.

For the purpose of studying the influence of Indian Art and Culture in the countries of South-East Asia, Quaritch Wales in his recent work, "The Making of Great India", divides South-East Asian countries into two zones - the Western Zone and the Eastern Zone.

Under the Western Zone he includes Ceylon, Burma, Central Siam, Malaya and Sumatra; while he includes Java, Champa (Siam) and Cambodia in the Eastern Zone.

REGARDING VEDHIC PROTAGONISTS:

The author (Quaritch Wales} points out that Indian scholars - most of them North Indians and a few Aryanised Brahmins of South India - seem often to have tended to over emphasise the overseas influence of their own part of the country - the implication being that they have exaggerated the role played by North Indian and Aryan culture in South-East Asia. He, however, accepts unhesitatingly the conclusion arrived at by M. Coedes, another great authority on South-East Asian Culture that -

"All the regions of India contributed more or less to this expansion, and it is South India that had the greatest part, for the Southern half of the Greater India - consisting of Ceylon, Java. Sumatra. Borneo, Malaya and Bali - was naturally most exposed to South Indian influence."

More recently, M. Stern has shown that even in Champa (Siam) and Cambodia which are included in the Eastern Zones by Quaritch Wales, Pallava (Tamil) influences have played a significant part from very early times in the evolution of their culture.

f.s.gandhi

[Badri]

To all participants of this thread: The earlier thread had been closed as it violated every stated guideline of this Forum. I hope this thread will not meet a similar fate. Kindly keep out all discussions which call for a comparison between languages or cultures.

If you do not agree to the views of other people, kindly make an intellectual arguement if the same is within your means. If not, kindly refrain from making any comments that would injure the sentiments of other people.

[mahadevan]

Hi Badri you said 'Kindly keep out all discussions which call for a comparison between languages or cultures'.

If the title is 'Tamil's elderliness to world languages' how can we refrain from comparing Tamil with other languages ?.

I completely understand that some times it gets nasty and we do need a semblence of decorum. But please do not say that comparing languages is completely banned :-)

[Badri]

Well Mahadevan, what it essentially means then is that there is no need for such a thread that seeks to compare. If Tamizh is great, it is great by its own right. It doesn't have to be proven great by comparing it with other languages. If one can feel proud of a language only by proving it is the greatest, the best, the oldest, that is like saying I am proud of my mother only if she is the most beautiful woman in the whole world!

This is not a Tamizh Forum. This is a forum frequented by people of all languages and cultures. Willy nilly, any comparison is bound to hurt the sentiments of other people.

Therefore, fortunately or unfortunately, such comparisons are completely banned.

[NOV]

Real pride is when a non-Tamil acknowledges the greatness of the language. Mere maar-thattudhal doesnt take you any where.

In fact, this constant obsession on Tamil being the best, oldest, etc will create an opposite effect among non-Tamils.

All I can say is, please dont destroy the good name of Tamil in your earnestness to flaunt its greatness.

[Idiappam]

There many ways to skin! That's his way. Mine is different!

[mahadevan]

Vinaythogai (for past, present and future tence), Is it some thing unique to Tamil ?

[F.S.Gandhi vandayar]

Dear Moderators :!:

I assure you that unwanted boasting shall be avoided in this thread. We shall discuss about world history and its origin based on scholars presentation.

I put the topic name in such a way to make every hubber participating in the discussion with enthusiasm.

Hubbers of different opinions may ask for more explanations with friendly way and if they still not satisfied they can politely express their disapproval.

This is not propogation against any language. I want to portray some truths.

By the by, Mr. Mahadevan, 'Vinaithokai' is unique feature in tamil poetry. Not only that. "Anikal" & Yappu are also special feature in tamil.

Some of the poetrical pattern of tamil has been adapted later period in sanskrit. For example, 'Pirathi Petham' in sanskrit was adapted from tamil 'padiyakuthal'. It means Some poetries pattern shall be repeated with same set of words to give various meaning.

In tamil, Thirumoolar Thirumanthiram contains this pattern. In Sanskrit Pathanchali Munivar followed this pattern in 'Ayur Vedham'

f.s.gandhi

[F.S.Gandhi vandayar]

TAMIL CULTURE IN ANCIENT SAUDI ARABIA

Those historiens and researchers who did research in West Asian countries calls a country as "SEA LAND". Babyloniens(3000 BC), Asirians(1500 BC) & Persians(1000 BC) ruled this country. Egyptians called this country as "GOD LAND".

Dr. Raymond Philip Dougherty is one of the historiens did research on "SEA LAND" which is nothing but present Saudi Arabia situated west of Persian Gulf.

Mr. Raymond did his research to pick up more evidences for Greek civilizations but ended up with Dravidian/Tamil culture :!: . We know always that this sort of conclusion shall be the result obtained by many scholars about tamilian civilization :!: . Actually they don't carry out their research with tamil as base. But accidentally they find out tamil base eventually :!:

Tamils "PORUNAI VALLEY CIVILIZATION" invented Madpaandam(Mud urns),Chakkaram(Wheel for traveling and Urn making) & Marakkalam(Ship for Sea travel & trade). Any ancient society research should accompany tamil as base otherwise they shall be "blind in big forest"-making no fruitful conclusion.

An another historien Sir.Arthur Geeth says : North Arabians are Chemiththian & Cacasians mixture.South Arabians are Half cacasians & half Dravidians.

An abstract from Mr. Raymond book, "THE SEALAND OF ANCIENT ARABIA", New Haven, Yale University.

"During 3500 BC Saudi Arabia land was under sea. Slowly it came out. That is why it was called as sea land.During 3000 BC "Kaltheya"( in Asirian language- Old Arabic-means country of stones- in tamil 'Kaltheyam') & Elam(means sun- tamil 'ellam'-suriyan). This sealand's East border is 'Thilmun'(present Bahrain- means 'Top point'-tamil 'thilmunai'). Kasayas-a segment of Kaltheya people- called this land as "karthuniyash"(means a land shore that came out- tamil 'karai thunithal'-karai uyarnthu Ezhuthal). Sea land's East border is Egypt(Gulf of 'Suyaz').

A district called "pant"(Tamil pandyar) was there as main trade centre. Foreigners/Dravidians were main traders. Precious stones,Gold,Silver,Sandal trees,Teak woods,perfumes were imported. Special teak wood specifies it came from present Kerala(Old pandyan kingdom). Mr. Ferrosias(historien) says Eden Garden of Bible was there in 'Thilmun'(Thilmunai-present Bahrain). The archeology proves this.

"Eridu"(means red- Tamil Eri means Reddish) was the city-head quarters for Sea Land. land. The first king name is 'Alulin'(means Alaza-wave in Arabic-tamil 'Alaiyan' like 'Thirayan').

A book called "JUPILIS" informs Persian Gulf as 'Erithiri'(means red sea-In Greek also Red Sea- tamil Eri thirai –Eri-red,thirai-Sea)

Bible Abraham's(Tamil Aayar kone) Birth place was "Oor" (Tamil Oor) in kaltheya.

Present Red Sea was not there during 3500 BC When southern part of Arabia was under Sea. It was as Gulf of Erithiri. When Arabia came out during 3000 BC present Red Sea was formulated. This is recorded as story in Old Testament -Bible. When land is created by God's grace 'Isralieans" escaped from Egypt through this land is story. Story might be imaginative. But the essence is archeologically proved. Exactly during this time the first "KADAL KOL"(Sea disaster) happened in Kumari kandam.

Half fish-Half man-ONUS Story prevailed in Gulf countries and Sumeria. A man from sea Spread culture & arts and gave language to these countries is the story. This conforms a sea man (tamils were sea farrers) shall be Dravidian/tamils.The pandyas have 'Meen'-fish as symbol. (H.R.Hall –a sinthu valley expert & V.R.Ramachandra Deekshidar-historien also conforms this- he says in these story two direct tamil words are found. One is 'Neer': another one is 'Meen': Remained were shrinked form of tamil)

During 1800 BC Sea land was under control of "Cemiththian"(means reddish people-tamil Chem/Chev means reddish). Arabia- name came from 'Aram'(means Reddish- tamil aram,araththam means red). Cuniform(Wedge shaped) (in tamil Kooni/Koompu/Aappu structure) Inscriptions showed king's entire dynasty and all are found to be Dravidian origin/tamil.

A foreign god(Dravidian) called 'Eya/Eyakki'(tamil eyakki amman/esakki amman) was worshipped.Horses were called as 'Purimo'(tamil parima)"

From this we come to know that first seeds of civilization were spread by tamils in Gulf countries.That is why Frederick Engeles called 'Kumari kandam'(elamuria) as "CRADLE OF WORLD CIVILIZATIONS" :!:

We shall see more.

f.s.gandhi

[F.S.Gandhi vandayar]

Dear Friends,

I noted many intricacies-if they are negative zoomed to very higher proportions by Vedhic protagonists in the discussions & one of such is sinthu valley seals reading.

In the case of Sinthu Valley Seals Dr.Mathivanan did excellent work and dechipered out all the 4000 seals. To curb the truth, North Indian scholars who don't want tamil's base tell some variations which can be explained by even a layman. The purpose of their hidden agenda is well known.

1. Left to Right Writing : First of all, All the historiens accept till date Sinthu Valley contains only Dravidian Culture. If Culture is Dravidian Why not language? Mr. Iravadham Mahadevan tried his best through tamil to prove it is Dravidian. One mistake he has done is reading Right to Left. He could not dechiper out all the symbols convincingly. Still he maintains his belief. When all the languages of India is written Left to Right and if we want to prove the sinthu valley script to be Indian origin it is logical to read Left to Right only. And not Right to Left which is insisted by western scholars thinking that Asirian origin.

All Indian scholars accept Left to Right reading denouncing the opposite reading by proving potteri graffti followed all over India which is the direct derivation of Sinthu valley script..From Potteri graffti Tamil Brahmi was evolved. Right to left / Left to Right is not at all the problem but reading should be convincing & acceptable. Tamil Brahmi also has undergone many changes in course of time.Dr. Mathivanan displayed the gradual turn of Brahmi script through Biscript seals which is most convincing method ever done. This is further supported by Dr. Gurumurthy's exibits of gradual development of potteri graffti from Sinthu Valley script.We can not find Indian origin without Left to Right reading! Dr. Mathivanan's dechiperment gets accreditation by many world Universities! :!:

(See. Sinthu Veli Ezhuthin Thiravukole – By Dr. Mathivanan)

2. Forty pictures have been assigned by Dr.Mathivanan with single syllable

Mr.Mathivanan made forty syllables! Other Indian Scholars made 500 and more. When there is more 'oru porut kilavikal'(synonyms) for one word and one root formed many words in tamil and having different meaning why can't we fix one syllable for different words of different situation :?:

I give an illustration for this. 'Ari' is one syllable used for many words and its meanings are arisi, Kathir, Tahadu,pone,malai,maalai,pal, parai,seed, singam, teeth and so on specifying sharprness in nature. If all this things are represented in pictorial way as in sinthu valley the only way to dechiper out is by fixing same syllables for many pictures. And Mr. Mathivaanan has done based on synonyms. This is completely acceptable.

When Neil Armstrong landed in Moon Some persons even scholars questioned its truth! Many still do not believe this since they don't know scientific logical sequence of happenings! The same is the case of Vedhic protagonists due to their hidden agenda!We need not go to the entire details and intricacies of any dechipherment. The outcome of research is enough. The derivation & interpretations should be evaluated logically and scientifically. This shall be the order of any history/archeological research.

When we want to go to the complete intricacies of dechiperment we have to apply statistical techniques. This is called probability theory.Positive probables and negative probables shall be put in frequency distribution and central tendency shall be measured. The slight variations & large variations shall be plotted (Frequency distribution). Central tendency(Towards actual result/Actual result) shall be measured. This is the best scientific method if we find slight variations in our dechiperment. Western scholars do this.

Wrong propaganda and zooming it bigger way won't sustain & survive long.

f.s.gandhi

[F.S.Gandhi vandayar]

TAMIL CULTURE IN ANCIENT GREECE

We go into the history of ancient Greece. H.R.Hall (The ancient history of near East), Rhys Carpenter (Discontinuity in Greek Civilization, Pennsylvania,Cambridge University Press),Dr. Vincent Tesfero have done best works about Ancient Greek Civilization.

I simply and here give an abstract from their works as below :

Those who were living Greece and Egyian Islands in Meditarannean Sea were Greeks. The people are heterogeneous in nature.In this Egyian Civilization's timeline is 2500 BCE.The location & Culture of Egyian Islands with archeological proofs shows that through them people from Asia to Europe & cultural transfer occurred.

Mysanayar,Thoriar,Minovars,Ellaniyar & Ayaniars, were five kinds of people lived in Greece and Egyian Islands. Sparta, Korinth, Ego, Athens, Episus, Milattus were great cities of Greece civilization.

Greece civilization timeline is 3400 BCE and after discontinuity it regained during 800 BCE. During 3400 BCE Minovar overruled. Minovar had two groups. Those who lived in north Greece were Egyians/Karaiyar and those who lived in south were Ekkiyar.

In Egyian civilization, city Naso was head quarter. Mysanayars and Thoriars ruled. During 1500 BCE Minovar of Greece dynasty who worshipped 'Nanthi' invaded & ruled.

Ellanian religion prevailed. This sun worship spread through 'Thrai'" (Turky) city.The famous story 'Helina" in which a Sparta Princess was captured by 'Thrai' Prince & all Three kinds of Greece people perished Thrai city to relieve the Helina(Princess). Just like our Ramayan Story! :!:

During 1300 BCE "Thesrottirar" from "Tanyoop" Valley invaded into the Greece.(We shall see who are Thesrottirar later. Because they brought some West Asian thoughts later developed. Here we take up Ancient Greece civilization till 1500 BCE)

During 600 BC all West Asian thoughts came into being in Greece. Thus the people of Egyians were heterogeneous formed by natural mingling of African & Asian People and they were the base for European civilization as of now.

Greece had Art Alphabets(Siththiram). Homer Stories were world famous.

We have already seen north of Saudi Arabia People called Ellamiyar(Tamil Ellamiyar). Elamiyan language is very much related to tamil. H.R.Hall conforms that From Ellam and Arabian 'pant' these tamil/dravidan people reached Anatrolia(present Turky) ,they worshipped "Maayon" (tamil Maayon) and they were called Maayoniars.

These maayoniars migrated to Eygian( means 'Iron' persons-Tamil Ekhyian) and called Mysonayar.Two groups of Mysonayar Karaiyar(means black persons-tamil kariyars) & Ekkiar(means Iron persons-tamil Ekhyiars). Minovar(means fishery man-tamil-Meenavar), Thoriar(Sea people-tamil thirayar),Ellaniyar (means sun persons who worshipped sun –tamil Ellaniyar-Ellam means suriyan), Helena Story (tamil Ellinal)- All conforms Tamil roots.

The worship followed in Greece was also Suryan worship which tamils followed in ancient days & now in pongal festival. The heterogenious society of Greece had Dravidian-semiththian-African elements and Dravida- tamil elements were more than the other two.

Traders & Sea farrers tamils influence has been proved in Greece archeologically.

We will travel into Turky next.

[mahadevan]

Deepawali what is the origin of the word ? It sound very much like Tamil.

[sivajayan]

Deepam+aavaLi I've learnt in the deepaavali thread in misc section.
a row of light it means i came across.

[Uthappam]

the chinese lantern festival?

[F.S.Gandhi vandayar]

We are celebrating Deepavali Two times :!: One as per "Narahaasura" Story. Other one is 'Kaarthikai Theepam'. Kaarthikai Theepam is specified as "Vilakkeetu Varisai" in Silapathikaaram and that is actual Theepavali for tamil. Festival is to thank "Varunan"(Vari means Sea-Sea God) for rain.This is tamil festival.

This was adapted in North India as a prayer to Lord Varuna. Later this came into being in Tamil Nadu with Narahaasura story.

'Thee' is root of Theebam. Theevam turned Deepam since 'v' is normally pronounced 'B' in north India as in 'Vaali-Baali'. One of the meanings of "Ali" is 'make it in series'-varisaip paduththu.

f.s.gandhi

[mahadevan]

the english word 'cash' is from tamil word kasu according to dictionary.com, how about 'money' , money is nothing but a medium of exchange, even before the discovery of metal we did trade on non-barterer system, what was functioning the role of money ?
It is highly that 'pearls/beads', muthu/mani was used as medium of exchange, because they were functioning the role of gold/silver in the pre gold/silver era by their limited availability.
Is Tamil 'mani', the medium of exchange in ancient India the root for 'Money' ?

[Alana]

May I ask the author of this topic what he is trying to prove, that one language is older or better than another one? Their origin is completely different..

Thank you.

[sivajayan]

May I ask the author of this topic what he is trying to prove, that one language is older or better than another one? Their origin is completely different..

Thank you.

Very simple for the citizen of The Land of The Aryans where ever it may be: YES!
As long as you can not disprove it!

And by the way what language they are capable of in The Land of The Aryans?

[Alana]

May I ask the author of this topic what he is trying to prove, that one language is older or better than another one? Their origin is completely different..

Thank you.

Very simple for the citizen of The Land of The Aryans where ever it may be: YES!
As long as you can not disprove it!

And by the way what language they are capable of in The Land of The Aryans?

I don`t quite understand the sarcasm of this post... I did address my question to the author of the topic...
Have I tried to disprove anything? I don`t think so, please read my post one more time & i`m sure you `ll understand its meaning.

As for you question - When you want to ask something next time i suggest you to be more polite. I doubt you are familiar with the Aryan language (to be more correct with what is left of it), but you are free to write in Tamil.

[sivajayan]

As for you question - When you want to ask something next time i suggest you to be more polight.
What is that polight our holy highness from The Land of The Aryans where and what ever it may be? Will you please educate this poor non Aryan if you don't mind hitting on the keyboard once again?

I doubt you are familiar with the Aryan language (to be more correct with what is left of it), but you are free to write in Tamil.
Are you familiar with that Aryan language "(to be more correct with what is left of it)"? And if that Aryan Language is rudimental as you say then your understanding of the mother of all Languages will be impossible for you too!

[Alana]

sivajayan
What is that polite our holy highness
Am I you holy highness(?) please don`t call me names.


Will you please educate this poor non Aryan
but you are free to continue to define yourselff as you wish. :)

Will you please..
Problems? Sorry, i can`t help you, not a doctor :)

Are you ..?
Your unhealthy interest in my persona begins to scare me :wink: ,
"rudimental"? where did you find this word? :?
And one more time, my question was not for you, so if you are looking for someone to have a little cat fight i suggest you find someone...well, you know! Have nice day! :wink:

[sivajayan]

sivajayan
What is that polite our holy highness
Am I you holy highness(?) please don`t call me names.


Will you please educate this poor non Aryan
but you are free to continue to define yourselff as you wish. :)

Will you please..
Problems? Sorry, i can`t help you, not a doctor :)

Are you ..?
Your unhealthy interest in my persona begins to scare me :wink: ,
"rudimental"? where did you find this word? :?
And one more time, my question was not for you, so if you are looking for someone to have a little cat fight i suggest you find someone...well, you know! Have nice day! :wink:
Didn't my Aryan beauty queen ordered me to be polight?
That word rudimental I found while I was on my way to conquer Rome. But when I arrived there I found Rome in pieces - rudiments. Just like your Aryan Language in pieces.

[Alana]

Am i a beauty queen now? Don`t know about beauty, but you surely do behave like a queen, know what i mean? So please, try to be a man & ...have a nice day! :wink:
P.S. This will be my last post for you :wink:

[sivajayan]

Am i a beauty queen now? Don`t know about beauty, but you surely do behave like a queen, know what i mean? Isn't it that common in The Land of the Aryans?

"She walked like a woman and talked like a man
drank champagne with cherry cola
L.O.L.A Lola..."


So please, try to be a man :wink: Can you please show me how it goes, Darling :lol:

P.S. This will be my last post for you :wink:Really? I am sooooo sad. :sad: Feel like I gonna cry cats and dogs! Oh Gosh, how my poor heart aches :lol:

[lordstanher]

Alana,
I was stunned by ur avataar when I 1st noticed it.......cool! 8-)
No idea exactly who it is but tat large flower sticking out thru her hair looks typical '70s (which I'm into myself!) :D

Retro rulez!!! 8-)

[Alana]

Alana,
I was stunned by ur avataar when I 1st noticed it.......cool! 8-)
No idea exactly who it is but tat large flower sticking out thru her hair looks typical '70s (which I'm into myself!) :D

Retro rulez!!! 8-)

lordstanher,
Thank you! :) I just liked that picture, in real life i don`t look like it..

[lordstanher]

lordstanher,
Thank you! :) I just liked that picture, in real life i don`t look like it..
Of course I reckoned u don't....! :D

[Alana]

You are right, I look better! :D

[sivajayan]

Alana,
I was stunned by ur avataar when I 1st noticed it.......cool! 8-)
No idea exactly who it is but tat large flower sticking out thru her hair looks typical '70s (which I'm into myself!) :D

Retro rulez!!! 8-)

The oversized sunglass is missing! Goa is still alive :lol:
No, in real life she does not look like it! Because She is a he. Just the LOLA, our holy highness :poke:

[lordstanher]

The oversized sunglass is missing! Goa is still alive :lol:
U mean the avataar?? well, they normally didn't wear those all the time.......!


No, in real life she does not look like it! Because She is a he. Just the LOLA, our holy highness :poke:
Hmm........cud u be sure of tat?? :?
Reminds me of the Mandangi/Dr.Veena days in this hub.......:D

[Alana]

The oversized sunglass is missing! Goa is still alive :lol:
U mean the avataar?? well, they normally didn't wear those all the time.......!


No, in real life she does not look like it! Because She is a he. Just the LOLA, our holy highness :poke:
Hmm........cud u be sure of tat?? :?
Reminds me of the Mandangi/Dr.Veena days in this hub.......:D

I thought that the topic was about the languages, definitely not about my persona.. To be honest i also thought & think that behind "siva.." is an angry housewife, well, talks like one anyway.
As i wrote before i chose this avatar because i liked it, not because i have something to hide. The same way i can use my own , but siva... seems to be allergic to my kind of people :) Well, let``s see..

[sivajayan]

The oversized sunglass is missing! Goa is still alive :lol:
U mean the avataar?? well, they normally didn't wear those all the time.......! But mostly when they are stoned and the eyes run red.



No, in real life she does not look like it! Because She is a he. Just the LOLA, our holy highness :poke:
Hmm........cud u be sure of tat?? :?
Reminds me of the Mandangi/Dr.Veena days in this hub.......:DI have no Idea about Dr.Veena or patient Mandangi as you know I am too new to this hub.


I thought that the topic was about the languages, definitely not about my persona.. To be honest i also thought & think that behind "siva.." is an angry housewife, well, talks like one anyway.
As i wrote before i chose this avatar because i liked it, not because i have something to hide. The same way i can use my own , but siva... seems to be allergic to my kind of people :) Well, let``s see..Why angry? How about desperate housewife, LOLA Highness? I am not allergic, I only clearly smell the unpleasant odour of the first holy post of the dragging beauty queen!

[Alana]

I can only say that i feel sorry for this person (looks like i am not the only one).

[sivajayan]

I can only say that i feel sorry for this person (looks like i am not the only one).No, you don't say that. You write it! :lol:

[lordstanher]

I have no Idea about Dr.Veena or patient Mandangi as you know I am too new to this hub.
Oh yea, sorry.........shud've filled u in on more details abt these 2........I din't know this Dr.Veena too well (as I was quite new to the hub then!) but I rem. she wud pour out most of her woes here........sum ppl. reckon from her posts tat "she" was actually a transvestite! :shock:
I cudn't find ne of "her" posts tho (most hav been deleted)........

As 4 Mandangi, he was a real joker in this hub until he left a few months later.......possibly the 1st known guy to call himself "beautiful" more than once......which made ppl. doubt his masculinity.....:lol:
U can find sum of his posts in this thread (which even hav his own pic. attached!)......as u go on reading page after page, u'll c how funny they keep getting: http://forumhub.mayyam.com/hub/viewtopic.php?t=197&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=60

:D

[F.S.Gandhi vandayar]

[tscii:7c6972b270]TAMIL CULTURE IN ANCIENT TURKY


H.R.Hall, Mr. Will Durant (The Story of civilization), J.G. Macqueen, (The Hittites and Their cotemporaries in Asia Minor) made archeological studies in Turky. The anchor Dictionary also gives some informations.

An abstract from the above is given below.

Present Turky ( Asia Minor) was called as 'ANATTROLIA' during Pre-historic period. From the beginning 'sons of soil' lived there. Gradual civilizational forwardness occurred there through Old Stone Age, New Stone Age & Cu Age one by one.

During 2000 BCE 'Kaththiyars' gained power. Mesopatiomians(present Eran) called these people as 'Mushkaya'. Egyptians called them as 'Keththa'. Old Bible calls them as "Heth". Modern historiens call them as "Hiththian" / Hittites. Till 1400 BCE they ruled Anattrolia with great power.

During 1900 BCE Asirians(present West Asia) were top in Anattrolian business.North Indian Dravidians,Mangolians & Chemithians were there in Anattrolia. The climate was so cool that people were turned white in nature. This white colour originated & migrated from Anattolia to present Europe.

Kaththian kings names were Shooppiluli yuma, Mursil, Muthallu, Kanthu seal etc.They followed pillar worship. In Indian Gujarat state still Kaththian people are living.

Armeninan land in Anattrolia was top business centre and the people were called Armemians. Asirians called them as "Uoorarthu" and Hebrew people called them as "Araarath". The languages Kurian & Uoorarthi were formulated from Mesapatomian language which was old tamil and Armenians were people who migrated from Mesopatomian "Uoor" land.

During 900 BCE "Fridgears" got power in Anattolia. Fridgears came from Greece.
A famous story – Fridgean prince story- He got God's accredition that whenever he touches a thing it would become Gold. He touched his food. It also turned as gold.
Fridgeans were also called Pariyans.

Their were people called "Etraskan" in Italy migrated from Anattrolia during 1500 BCE. Etraskan king was "Heraalks"

The culture of Anatrolians was based on tamilian "Kanthu" Worship. Kaththiars(Tamil)-means 'couragious and sharp' were Dravidian origin. The word Kaththian later turned "Shatriar" in north India. Mushkaya(Mutkayan),Shoopiliyuma(Soorapuliyan),Musi l & Muthallu(Muthal),Kanthu seal(Kantha sealan),Uoorarthu(Uoor), Fridgeans/ Parians(Pariyar-means horse people), Heraalks(Veerakkazhal,Even English Hero is from tamil Veeru-eeru-eero-Hero) and many more words and languages are from tamil roots in their meaning and phonetics.

Next We may travel into Asiria (present Erak & Eran)

f.s.gandhi
[/tscii:7c6972b270]

[F.S.Gandhi vandayar]

Alana wrote :


May I ask the author of this topic what he is trying to prove, that one language is older or better than another one? Their origin is completely different..

Thank you.

Dear Alana,

My point is to prove All world languages were formulated from single language and that single language is tamil due to its antiquity in World's history.

This does not mean all languages were directly derived from tamil. For example English was derived from Latin & Greek. Latin & Greek were from Chemithian language. But Chemithian language was derived from tamil.

The comparison is not out of vanity but to integrate all world humans. They have such a resemblance in language rather than colour,race etc. In culture they have passed on different stream but their origin is same.

There is no such thing that this is better & that is lower in languages. May be in some practical / spiritual application and the knowledge each language has made higher degree & lower degree. This classification also go out when translation is made in all arts.

The 'elderiness' I put in the topic is to specify the origin/beginning of humanhood / civilization.

We will not / should not forget our first school teacher who teaches alphabets. In the same way we should think our past and its beginning to derive some lessons for future.

f.s.gandhi

[sivajayan]

I have no Idea about Dr.Veena or patient Mandangi as you know I am too new to this hub.
Oh yea, sorry.........shud've filled u in on more details abt these 2........I din't know this Dr.Veena too well (as I was quite new to the hub then!) but I rem. she wud pour out most of her woes here........sum ppl. reckon from her posts tat "she" was actually a transvestite! :shock:
I cudn't find ne of "her" posts tho (most hav been deleted)........

As 4 Mandangi, he was a real joker in this hub until he left a few months later.......possibly the 1st known guy to call himself "beautiful" more than once......which made ppl. doubt his masculinity.....:lol:
:D
Alana, you can come to Holland. The Dutch are very tolerant in that matter and you'll find a lot of more LOLAs too. No need to wait until St. Christopher's Day to come. You can be what you are every day and every night. :lol:

FSG,
I am very sorry for this kind of outburst, but Dr. Veena aka Madangi aka LOLA aka Alana's intension was very clear to me as it was the very 3rd post at all. This person only wanted to start a discussion on the base of Aryan superiority.

[sivajayan]

Even English Hero is from tamil Veeru-eeru-eero-Hero) and many more words and languages are from tamil roots in their meaning and phonetics.

Next We may travel into Asiria (present Erak & Eran)

f.s.gandhi
[/tscii]
Dear FSG,
I am not at all a linguist nor a historian or any of that kind. But I don't accept that hereo is English. Most pbly it is Greek. It is interesting to read what you write but somehow I keep back my horses rather than shout hurray.

You mentioned pariyan as greek above. Is it related to ariyarns like Asirians with Asurar?

Couple of days ago I read that there is a folk in North India of jewish origin and that they came to know that their customs are very similiar to jewish as The Bible were translated to them. The Indian Gov. does not want their conversion now back to their old religion. These people were chased away when the Assurars attacked them long ago and their way of exodus was through Iran to Afghanistan to China and now North east India.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/4422510.stm

If the Assurars in Hinduism is reffereing to the Assurar here then I am quite sure that "Religion" is nothing else than a history description and not a war between Gods and anti-gods. Hereby I think of the "Nadaraja" and this "Assur-devil".

[F.S.Gandhi vandayar]

Mr. Sivajayan wrote,


You mentioned pariyan as greek above. Is it related to ariyarns like Asirians with Asurar?

Persons of funny mood will face crucial situation easier than persons of serious mood :!: The discussion you had with "AZhakana Alana" is interesting :!: Continue crackers frequently :!:

Aryan,Indo-European,Aryan invasion and such like terms are imaginery and I may add these in the discussion later. We will go from Will Durant- Maxmuller to latest Aryan theory owners after some time :!:

Pari means horse. Pariyans were not Aryans. In 'tamil is elder to Sanskrit' Thread I revealed 'Aryans' are Hothaas-Othuvaars. We can call Aryan theory as 'Arya Mayai'.

f.s.gandhi

[Alana]

The discussion you had with "AZhakana Alana" is interesting :!: Continue crackers frequently :!:

As interesting as the meaningless discussion you were having before with yourself? Well, thanks for calling me "azhakana", i hope that one day your amma, akka ot manisi will be called "AZhakana" with exactly the same meaning you called me...

sivajayan wrote

Alana, you can come to Holland. The Dutch are very tolerant in that matter and you'll find a lot of more LOLAs too. No need to wait until St. Christopher's Day to come. You can be what you are every day and every night
oru LOLAyalthan innoru LOLAlai kandupidikka mudiyum :wink:

[Lambretta]

I've been wondering abt the curious similarity of 'Vetri' (Tamil) w/ 'Victory' (English)........both meaning the same, cud it be the latter was derived from the former as a result of sum cross-cultural race mix??

[Sandeep]

How about "Lamby" and "Thamby" ;)

[Lambretta]

How about "Lamby" and "Thamby" ;)
Um....nope, firstly they don't mean the same......nor r they pronounced the same.......(Thamby = Thumby :wink: ) :lol2:

[F.S.Gandhi vandayar]

Ventru(tamil)- Vettri(tamil)

Ventral-Vincere(Latin)-Vincere(French)- Vincery-victory(English) is the evolution.

f.s.gandhi

[F.S.Gandhi vandayar]

TAMIL CULTURE IN ANCIENT ERAN & ERAK(ASIRIA)

Mr. Will Durant (The story of civilization) Mr. H.R. Hall ( The Ancient history of near East), B.S.Upaththiyaya ( Feeders of Indian Culture), Robert Bruce Foote ( The Foote collection of Indian Prehistoric and Protohistoric antiquities), Ankar Bible Dictionary, The New Encyclopaedia Britannica 15th Edition shall give light on history of Asirian civilization.

An Abstract of the above is as follows :

The civilization that prevailed in the capital "ASUR" is called Asirian civilization. During 1110 BCE Asirians came into power and reached their height during 975 BCE. Before 1110 BCE they were under Sumerians first and Babylonieans next.

Sumerians created civilization. Babyloneans made it peak. And Asiraians maintained that peak. Asur (present Kalath-Sherkath), Arpela (present Irbil), Kalak (present nimrut), Ninavae ( present Queenjik) were important cities of Asiria.

Armenia,Siria, Methiya,Balesthene,Fonesia,Sumeria,Elam & Babylonea were under Asirian rule. From Kaakkas mountain to Egypt, Asirians ruled.

Babylon God Marthuk(tamil Maruthu) was made servant of Asur God.

Asirians were same civilizational group of Babylonieans. In Asiria, North was Asirian and South was Babyloneans. Babyloneans were great traders with wealth. Asirians were great landlords with wealth.

God Asur was a Surya God.(Tamil sun worship).He was portrayed as god of perishing merciless & arrogant towards enemies.

We have already seen that during 900 BCE in siriya & Asia Minor, Uoorarthu / Aarrath people prevailed. It was difficult for Asirians to control them. Aarrath people called themselves as Kalthiyas(tamil Kaltheyam). Their God's name is Kalthis. They called themselves as Warrior community.Their language was 'Vanni'(Tamil Vanni-a surname now in Thanjavur and a main caste group of northern TamilNadu) Their symbols were found near 'Vaan' lake (Tamil Vaan -sky/ water area- a lake is called 'Vaan Poikai" in sankam literature 'pattinappaalai 39-In this tamils' prehistoric foreign trade also is mentioned)

With Uoorarthi people, People called "Mannai"(tamil mannai means king/ruling class-Now This surname exists in Mannaarkudi area in tamilnadu) had marriage relationship and these people lived in Eran.

Asur means "lively / Uyirmaiyana",energetic or enormous power holding.

Ayir-Uyir-Asur is the evolution.Sumeria got 'The wheel for urn making' from Elam region. Elam region got this from tamils. And Asirians main trade was this urn making and they were also called uyavian. Tamil Uyavu means 'Chakkaram'/ wbeel. Asiriyan's were well in manufacturing Iron weapons. In tamil "Ayil" means Iron. Asiriyans God was made in Iron and called as Asi/Ayi.

B.S. Upaththiyaya says, 'Kalak'(tamil kalai) was artistic city.

Asirians were the heterogenius people of Kaththiyar,Chemiyar & Kakkas region Kurthish. All these people's basic culture is Dravidian/Tamilian.Kurthish were mountain people. They were from Kaltheyars.

One more Asirian God was called 'Asura Majesta'(Tamil Asura Maayam). The tamil battle practices like putting enemies on sharp edge (kazhuvil Etruthal), removing skin(Tholai uriththal), cutting tongue (nakkai Aruththal), taking out eyes (kannai nonduthal) were followed by Asiriyans.(These phrases still now used in colloquial Tamil)

A kaththiyan temple was called 'Fokazi Koyi' (tamil- pakavan koyil). Uoorarthu / Aararthu (tamil Aaram) people lived around mountain. In Asirian document Aararthu was symbolized as mountain country.

Aararthu people called their land as also 'Fyai nili'(Tamil-poikai nilam). In Aramaic and Siriyan languages the mountain of Aararthu was called as 'Karthu malai'(tamil kal malai) and the people were called 'Kortheyar"(Tamil Kaltheyar). The word Armeniar was also from this root Aaram.

Aararthu kings were Aaramu(Tamil Aaram/Maalai), Menuva(Tamil Manu), Erimena(tamil Eri mannan) -all tamil names.

People of Methiya which was under Asirian rule, worshipped moon and it was called 'Mathi'.(Tamil mathi means Chandran)

Asirian followed "Majes" (Tamil Maayon) worship. Thus throughout Asirian civilization we see tamil culture & language.

Next We shall go into Persia (Present Paakistan,Palusistan,Afghanistan & Eran)

f.s.gandhi

[Lambretta]

Ventru(tamil)- Vettri(tamil)

Ventral-Vincere(Latin)-Vincere(French)- Vincery-victory(English) is the evolution.
Tks! :D Tat was very informative & interesting!

[F.S.Gandhi vandayar]

TAMIL CULTURE IN ANCIENT PERSIA (present Eran)

Again we rely on Will Durant, H.R.Hall,B.S.Upathyaya, P.T. Srinivasa Iyengar & Ankar Dictionary. V.S.V. Raghavan's 'Hiraattas' also gives some light about the history of Persian Rule.

During 600 BCE Asirian rule came to end. Siria & West parts were captured by Babyloneans. Methiyas captured Tigris river parts & Aararthu. There was good understanding between Babyloneans & Methiyans.

During 550 BCE King Syras Captured Methiya and won over King Astiyakas.Persians belonged to same race of Methiyans(Eraniyans). They were mixer of North Dravidian+Mangolian-land connection and South Dravidians(Tamils) connection+Chemiththian-Sea connection. The Culture contained Dravidian elements in higher proportion.

The present Areas from Sinthu to Kabul were under Asirian,Methian & Persians one after another.

Syras was called as Elam(Elam anshan-tamil elam anuvan- Anu in tamil means 'sun') king by Babyloneans. Greeks called him as Persian. Persians called him as Akkamanian. Compeeses & Tarius were other important kings. During Tarius rule Persians reached peak.

During this time a great phylosopher "Zarathustra" lived. Zarathustra gave new explanation to Old "Majesta"(Tamil Mayam) theory. Zarathustra religion God was Ahura Majesta/Asura Majesta(Tamil Asura Mayam).'Thayeevar'(perishing God- Tamil Thevar) was specified as Inthira and he was portrayed as enemy of Ahura Majesta.

Instead of burying dead bodies Zarathustra insisted to put first for bird / dog eating. Hirattas(a history writer before christian era) also specifies this. Hirattas also categorises the Priest class as was called 'Mazi' (Maya) who did rituals of old Asura religion and were considered as enemies to Zarathustras.

Persia was called as Faars, Pars & Parsumaash- all means Horse land.(tamil pari means horse). Near Persia a place was called as (Maliyan-tamil Malai). A village called 'Kusa'(tamil kuyavu-kusavu) where Urn making was done. Syras was called Akkamanian-indegenious man(Tamil Aka manayan means Ulloorkaaran – a person of native area)

King Syras was also called 'Kurush'. In Hebrew he was called as 'Koras' (tamil Kurusil). King Tarius was called Thrayawash-means sea man (Tamil Thiraiyavan)

Zarathustra 'Arththa'-Zarathustra theology(Tamil Arththa-Aram-Araththathu-Araththaaru). False was specified as 'Thravuka'(Tamil Thurokam/ Thurukam)

For writing two things were used. 1. Elakkani(Tamil Elakkani means tool used to write in palm leaves). 1. Kalam (ink vessel-tamil- kalam). This 'kalam' is used in all West Asian languages including Hindi(Urdu)to specify pen.

Eventhough Persian people differed worship of tamil Inthiran / Tamil Maayon (Maaji) worship these two was the base to evolve out new religion Zarathustra. In language, they used only tamilian language.

Next We go into Persian's "Jent Avesta-a" Zarathustra religion book / Persian religion book which is often compared with Vedhic religion of India.

f.s.gandhi

[bis_mala]

thiru FSG

U r doing very well. Thanks for this presentation of yours!! Like to hear more from you.

[devapriya]

Dear F.S.GANDHI AVArkale,

Vungal postings are interesting, but it is really paining that you mostly quote Speculative suspictions held in the past and now clearly rejected as new thing.

You in one of the posting on Tamil is Elder Thread- dated entire Tamil Sangam Lit to 200CE and later. Idiyappam says Sangam Lit extends to Bakthi period means 8th Cen.

The Scholars normally date This to 100BCE to 200 CE and Tirukural and Silapathikaram and Mankmekhalai to 3rd Cen. The Problem is we donot have any Manuscripts earlier than 17th Cen CE.

Now Kindly give as to which of the Universities of India and abroad have similar views as the Authors you quote.

You gave very high Publicity to Dr.Mathiwanan's Alleged Indus Dechiphering. Mr. Aravindan and Mr.Solomon has very clearly explained the methods of improperness in it. Kindly explain please.

Tamil is a Great Language- but we do not need wrong methods and other country's Languages be said as Tamil which are today clearly marked by International Scholars as other Languages.

Tirukural Conference Papers have been linked by K.P.Aravindan and all the Scholars say the reference to Marai and Vedams in Tholkappiyam and Sangam and Kural are Four Vedas. Why should we reject this conclusions and assume or presume un available some thing else.

Please be more specific with Proper International repute Univesity based Scholars please. Otherwise all we do will be just meaningless Gossip.

Devapriya.

[F.S.Gandhi vandayar]

Dear Devapriya,

You seem to be reviving the arguments posed by Solomon in 'Tamil is elder to Sanskrit' thread earlier which were explained by me there itself and so visit those old posts.

Mr. Solomon/Ancheneyan's(devapriya's-I guess you could be) dubious's nature & inadquate depthness in arguements clearly put by me. Go through my old posts. Your tone reflects his replica with back to square approach.

I said third sankam span of timeline is in between 600 BCE to 200 CE. Not as you said. Visit my post on 06.08.05 in the same thread. I don't find anywhere Idiappam said about sankam timeline and it seems you are also following mischievious path of Solomon.

Dr. Mathivan's works now is being accredited by world historiens. Your utterings do not have truth. Visit my posts regarding Dr. Mathivanan's decipherments.

'Naanmarai' was misinterupted and all your sayings about this is highly speculative. I may write about this in future.

Whatever I put in this column is World renowned historiens views & findings and references are clearly specified by me. And viewers also will find the truth in the arguements.

Many world Universities made these authors & and their books that I have specified now in this column & earlier in Tamil is elder to Sanskrit Column as references to various courses.

The authors of world renowned have submitted research papers and got Doctoral degrees on these books.

Hence again and again as Solomon put in his old posts don't try(worry) to establish wrong approach of 'Back to square'.

In the forthcoming columns I may write still more about Ancient histories and then come to Indian ancient history which may give you some stuff to argue.

f.s.gandhi

[Idiappam]

You in one of the posting on Tamil is Elder Thread- dated entire Tamil Sangam Lit to 200CE and later. Idiyappam says Sangam Lit extends to Bakthi period means 8th Cen.
When did I say that the "Bakthi period extends...." Don't twist my words. I said, "The Bakti period overlaps the Sangam Period." That means- The Bakti period started the 1st century CE.... That's all!


The Scholars normally date This to 100BCE to 200 CE and Tirukural and Silapathikaram and Mankmekhalai to 3rd Cen. The Problem is we donot have any Manuscripts earlier than 17th Cen CE.
Scholars... Scholars... Scholars.... Scholars all over your posts... What has Manuscripts go to do with the date of the Literature..?

Go read 'Huckleberry Finn' now. You would probably be reading a reprint - not Mark Twain's handwriting! Think about that, Mr Priya!


Now Kindly give as to which of the Universities of India and abroad have similar views as the Authors you quote.
Now you have narrowed your silly demands to 'Universities of India"? Ealier it was 'world renowned' Universities. What is in your mind??


Tamil is a Great Language- but we do not need wrong methods and other country's Languages be said as Tamil which are today clearly marked by International Scholars as other Languages.
Wow... 'International Scholars'' - this time, eh?


Tirukural Conference Papers have been linked by K.P.Aravindan and all the Scholars say the reference to Marai and Vedams in Tholkappiyam and Sangam and Kural are Four Vedas. Why should we reject this conclusions and assume or presume un available some thing else.
Where is that Sansritic stuff Rig, Sama, Yajur and Atharvan Vedas mentioned in "Tholkappiyam and Sangam and Kural"???


Please be more specific with Proper International repute Univesity based Scholars please. Otherwise all we do will be just meaningless Gossip.
Now you went back - 'Proper International repute University' - Earlier you wanted Indian University Scholars. - What happened??

[Hyderbadi]

Guys, go to Andhra Pradesh or Karnataka and tell people that Tamil is the oldest language or that Tamil is the mother of Telugu/Kannada. You will be laughed at and people will only ridicule you. Heck, you will be ridiculed if you say the same thing anywhere in India outside of TN.

[gaddeswarup]

I have not been following the discussion closely but I came from A.P. and do not mind if Tamil is older than Telugu. If one follows some accepted norms of enquiry and comes up with references which are 'acceptable' and if Tamil is older so be it. I think that Aravindhan pointed out in one of the discussions what he considered as acceptable references. Certainly Tamil seems to have much older literature than other Dravidian languages and whether other languages were derived from it or developed seperately will probably come out with more research.
Somewhat tangential topic: I think that Tamilians' fight against the imposition of Hindi has actually helped Andhras in the I.T. boom.
Regards,
Swarup

[rajraj]

Swarup,
Here is something that might interest you. This is a letter from Dr.Hart, Professor, South Asia studies, University of California,Berkeley. Interestingly, George Hart studied Sanskrit for his Ph.D and taught Sanskrit.

http://tamil.berkeley.edu/Tamil%20Chair/TamilClassicalLanguage/TamilClassicalLgeLtr.html



I think that Aravindhan pointed out in one of the discussions what he considered as acceptable references. Certainly Tamil seems to have much older literature than other Dravidian languages........
Regards,
Swarup

[gaddeswarup]

RR,
Thanks for the very interesting reference. I may be getting out of the thread but it is for this kind of references and scholarly comments by various people that I enjoy participating in this forum. I had the pleasure of meeting Velcheru Narayana Rao mentioned in the article. I read his book (with David Shulman and Sanjay Subramaniyan) "Symbols of substance" about the Nayaka period in Tamilnadu and how one can glean history from literature.
It is interesting for me to see how Tamilians have been able to preserve their culture and literature for such a long period , try to see reasons for this and what lessons it has for the future. I read somewhere that eventhough Telugu borrowed a lot of words from Samskrit, the structure of Samskrit itself was influenced by Dravidian languages. At one time, I think that Dravidam used to mean Tamil but one of the early writers (Campbell?) srated using the term Dravidian languages. Apart from the preservation of language and culture, it is also the interaction of cultures that fascinates me. Some of the famous Telugu writers like Srisri, Dasarathi brothers, Arudra and others came from Tamil families settled in Andhra long ago and Dasrathi Rangacharya mentins that his parents used to speak Dravida Bhasha., an old form of Tamil. Regards,
Swarup

[gaddeswarup]

Sorry; after talking about references I just mentioned a few things without references. Unfortunately some of them are in Telugu. The main reference is Arudra's "Samagra Andgra Sahityam". In his artcle about Nannaya (Adikavi or first poet), he raises the possibilty that Nannya may be of Tamilian origin and then goes on to mention several recent poets of Tamil ancestry. Dasrathi Rangacharya's story is from his autibiography "Naa jeevana yanam". About the influence of Tamil (Dravidian languages) on Samskrit, I found the reference in the message 13691 of the yahoo group racchabanda. I enclose a passage from the message:

"It appears that what you read from this interview is different from
what I read. To me, David Shulman is talking about "India as a
Linguistic Area" [*see the footnote] - he is talking about the
convergence of syntax in medieval Sanskrit (not Vedic Sanskrit) and other Indo-Aryan languages with the syntax of Dravidian (without going into what created this convergence).

Here I am reminded of Sjoberg's comments (1992) on syntax of Indian Languages:

"Thus the Dravidian grammatical impact on Indo-Aryan has been far
than the Indo-Aryan grammatical impact on Dravidian. How can we
account for this pattern?"

Her hypothetical answer to this question was "agglutinative languages seem highly resistant to syntactic changes". (Note that the Dravidian languages are agglutinative languages).

Also Bh. Krishnamurti, a renowned linguist and an authority on
Dravidian languages, in his recent book on "Dravidian Lanaguages" (2003) says:

"It is the Dravidian which show evidence of extensive lexical
borrowing but only a few traits of structural borrowing from Indo-Aryan. On the contrary, Indo-Aryan (particularly middle and modern) show large scale structural borrowing from Dravidian, but very little lexical borrowing."

To reconcile these facts he says "That Middle Indo-Aryan and New Indo-Aryan have been built on a Dravidian substratum seems to be the only answer.""

The message is by Suresh Kolichala who says that he is not an expert on these topics. Note also that he may be talking of Samskrit of a later period. I must add that even though I am interested in these topics, I know very little about these topics and was just trying to fo learn a little with out too much study. It is possible that some inspired and persistent non-expert may come up with interesting insights. Regards,
Swarup

[rajraj]

Swarup: According to my linguist friend, a retired professor in lingustics, there had been considerable lexical borrowing by Tamil from Sanskrit and considerable structural borrowing by Sanskrit from Tamil. This is generally accepted by some other linguists also. If you like I can suggest some books on linguistics. Encyc. Britannica has a good coverage of languages. The late A.K.Ramanujan of the University of Chicago contributed, if I remember correctly. He was a Kannadiga of Tamil origin.

( I am not RR. He is the administrator. I am Raj using the id rajraj, a moderator. You may call me Raj ! :) )

[Lambretta]

Guys, go to Andhra Pradesh or Karnataka and tell people that Tamil is the oldest language or that Tamil is the mother of Telugu/Kannada. You will be laughed at and people will only ridicule you. Heck, you will be ridiculed if you say the same thing anywhere in India outside of TN.
Hmm......donno abt other parts of India but I've come across even *certain* Telugus having the superiority complex abt Telugu, even claiming tat it formed as a base for Sanskrit, altho it has been proved from many sources the other way round! :)
I actually found sum info. on this in the forum of andhranews.com which I'm pasting here:

The word Telugu transformed from the word 'ThriLinga' (like Kalinga).
Telugu language is a direct descent of Sanskrit. Sankrit was the only spoken language in Ancient India (even in other parts of the world). During the last Treta Yuga (Around 2.0 million years ago of Lord Rama's time), Agastya Mahamuni has compiled (from sanskrit) a New Languange/s for Normal usage to humans. I am not sure how they are named but some historians say they are named something similar to Tamil (also probably Telugu or Prakrit as mentioned below).
And from these derived languages came all other world languages such as French, Russian, English. English Alphabets are nothing but 'E-gunitham' of Telugu (Hindi or Any Indian) languange's Alphabets. Similarly Russian/Ukrainian is a 'A-gunitham of Telugu (or Any Indian) language's Alphabets.

[gaddeswarup]

I am sorry that the topic seems to be moving away and that I am partly responsible. I have been participating a bit in andhranews and find it a bit difficult. The moderator seems to be good but it is difficult to continue any discussion there. People seem to just keep repeating their opinions and get abusive after a while. Sometimes websites seem to be avenues for parochialism rather than information or discussion. This seems to a problem on a larger scale even with newspapers and TV. I wonder whether we are entering an age of disinformation and opinions. Sorry about this post.
Swarup

[Lambretta]

Swarup garu, :D
Yes I think I did notice u in Andhranews.com......ur "Anand" there rite?
And yes, ur rite abt the behaviour of the ppl. there! :evil:
I don't rem. ever coming across such uncouth, unreasonable ppl. here in the Hub (thankfully)!
Main reason y I stopped posting there altho I still visit itat site occasionally.....
Neways, I guess we shud move on w/ the main topic now......I wud particularly like to know the evolution of certain words from Tamil into Telugu, if ne-one cud fill us in on this?

[F.S.Gandhi vandayar]

Thanks for Idiappam, Lambretta,
gaddeswarup, Rajraj & hyderabaddi expressing their views.

Tamil belongs to Everybody in India due to its motherliness. It was wrongly preached that Sanskrit was the first language in India. If anybody with unbiased way interprets the ancient history he will find about that.

There are enough proofs to show tamil's antiquity. Forthcoming findings in history will also prove this.I shall write about Indian ancient history including the origin of Vedhas after sometime.

Dear Hyderabaddi, kindly do not ask ordinary people about history. Go and ask 'Dravidian university' professors, Kuppam in Anthra. The University was opened by the great N.T.RAMARAO and funded by Mr. Chandrababu Naidu Government and present Anthra Government also pumps funds into that.

f.s.gandhi

[paulthomas]

Friends,

We need to appreciate the work of Missionaries in Linguistic Research, and man like Bishop Caldwell and Father. Heras etc.,

In the meanwhile we should also accept Research Truths.

Dr.M.DEIVAnayagam, a Disciple has proved with Doctral Thesis that entire Tamil Knowledge is from missionary work of Saint.Thomas, apostle of Our Lord Jesus, and we need to acknowledge this.
PaulThomas

[Bebeto]

any links available, PT?

If entire Tamil's knowledge is from Saint Thomas then I wonder why Kerala people stood behind Tamils :roll:

Not only they also all the other folks where Thomas had been first.

Please offer me the link to that Doctor, and I will get my Dr.Dr. in disproving him!

Think twice babe, also arround the corner.

[F.S.Gandhi vandayar]

Friends,

We need to appreciate the work of Missionaries in Linguistic Research, and man like Bishop Caldwell and Father. Heras etc.,

In the meanwhile we should also accept Research Truths.

Dr.M.DEIVAnayagam, a Disciple has proved with Doctral Thesis that entire Tamil Knowledge is from missionary work of Saint.Thomas, apostle of Our Lord Jesus, and we need to acknowledge this.
PaulThomas

All the major religions of today and all ancient cultures of pre historic period had knowledge from Ancient tamil culture. Kindly Visit my post in 'History of tamils' column.

The doctorate degree might be awarded to Deivanayakam for his comparative studies. Thiru.Meenakshi Sundaram Pillai also made this kind of comparative studies like " Asthtthayiyium Tholkappiayamum".

If Deivanayakam insists on the theory that Tamils came from Europe which some Indo-European scholars still believes, that should be summarily rejected because man evolution could not be possible in cold European environment.

The linking elements that are found as truth as I explained in this column shall prove culture went south to north or north west.

f.s.gandhi

[bis_mala]

Dr.M.DEIVAnayagam, a Disciple has proved with Doctral Thesis that entire Tamil Knowledge is from missionary work of Saint.Thomas, apostle of Our Lord Jesus, and we need to acknowledge this.
PaulThomas

Never mind!! If Tamil indeed came from Hebrew and all its knowledge from Israel, then alas! we cannot but admit it and just be happy about it. We should give credit when it is due and to whom it should rightly belong!!

But two German professors have drawn striking similarity between Sermon on the Mount and Bhuddist scriptures. with the possibility ("proof" they say ) that NT materials were from Bhuddism.

Now you have to discuss in tripartite terms. Bhuddism, Christianity and VaLLuvam. You also should be aware Bhuddism was prevalent in TN at around the Sangam period (see MaNimEkalai).

Jesus is said to have professed Adwaitham philosophy prevalent in part of Hindusim or the old religion of India prior to Bhudda. He was also said to have been buried in Pakistan (which of course the Church cannot agree).

What I am saying is: Mr Paulthomas, before anything, please sort out all these conflicting data so that we can prepare ourselves to receive Dr Deivanayagam. WHERE DID ALL THESE KNOWLEDGE COME FROM? THE real SOURCE!

It appears now that we are going into an area which is called a collateral issue ( not directly relevant to the topic but only relevant to something relevant) but since you have brought it up a second time in this forum, I have to seek your learned clarification!!

[binal142001]

Tamil belongs to Everybody in India due to its motherliness. It was wrongly preached that Sanskrit was the first language in India.
f.s.gandhi

I have been a silent reader of this forum since i joined and now I just felt I have to express what I(non-tamil) think-

Sorry to give you the news that Tamil does not belong to me even if you are giving me any reward to accept that nor I think its the mother of my language. This does not mean i disrespect tamil or any other language for that matter, but it is not my choice at all because I'm not a tamilian. Everybody has their own language and high respect for their language and state. U cannot change a non-tamil's feeling for tamil by submitting article over article over article.....which looks more like Tamil propaganda than a history information.

All the best in ur tamil propaganda!!

Good luck in changing a non-tamil's mind by ur tamil propaganda.

[bis_mala]

Tamil belongs to Everybody in India due to its motherliness

All Indian languages belong to all Indians and Tamil being one of the languages of India, other Indians would also have regard for Tamil as indeed a Tamil should have regard for all other Indian languages. Tamil is one of the oldest languages in India and this is an added reason for enhanced regard all of which should flow from the broadmindedness one Indian should display or expected to display for another. Which language is the oldest is a matter for linguistic research.

In a broad sense, Tamil belongs to all Indians and every language in India should also belong to all Indians.

In a restricted and narrow sense, Tamil has nothing to do with other Indians as they neither speak nor understand it. Whether others have any regard for Tamil or not would depend on other factors. ( Needless to say that we do not expect educated Indians aware of the need for unity in India to hold on to this restricted and narrow view.)

The Indian government has shown regard and appreciation for Tamil by declaring it as a classical language, It is part of the heritage of India and the Indians.

Looking at the picture from another angle, how other Indians consider Tamil is a non-issue and quite irrelevant. In this view, no Indian need have any regard for a language of another Indian, which language is not his. (Not good for people of India, we all know.)

Having no regard for any language other than your mother tongue is a common phenomenon all over the world and nothing unusual.

[Bebeto]

I have been a silent reader of this forum since i joined and now I just felt I have to express what I(non-tamil) think-

Sorry to give you the news that Tamil does not belong to me even if you are giving me any reward to accept that nor I think its the mother of my language. This does not mean i disrespect tamil or any other language for that matter, but it is not my choice at all because I'm not a tamilian. Everybody has their own language and high respect for their language and state. U cannot change a non-tamil's feeling for tamil by submitting article over article over article.....which looks more like Tamil propaganda than a history information.

All the best in ur tamil propaganda!!

Good luck in changing a non-tamil's mind by ur tamil propaganda.
Tamil is not put on sale. It is a Rolls Royce and you need a driver. Outsiders always stand outside and when you sit inside then you'll come to know that it is a car like any other car but a wonderful one to drive with.

[binal142001]

Tamil is not put on sale. It is a Rolls Royce and you need a driver. Outsiders always stand outside and when you sit inside then you'll come to know that it is a car like any other car but a wonderful one to drive with.

:roll: Hm....u r giving contradicting statements- u say tamil is not on sale and then say its a rolls royce. Be clear as to what u want to say.

I never said tamil is not sale...no language or heritage or history can be.
i just mentioned the word "reward" and even using that was a metaphor.

ok..even if its a rolls royce I could have/buy a rolls royce- u do not know my financial capabilities. and one more thing if i own a rolls royce does that mean i own tamil :lol: ...no it does not.

So r u trying to say that tamil is supreme or what??
It might be for Tamil people as i told but not for non-tamil.

there is a saying-
"To each his own"

[stranger]

All the best in ur tamil propaganda!!

Good luck in changing a non-tamil's mind by ur tamil propaganda.

Hey!

You really mean it when you wish, "good luck" here?! :roll:

If you did I appreciate your open-mind! :)

If I were you, I would have ignored this thread because I am a south-Indian non-tamil and I hate tamil more than anything in my life! :)

[binal142001]

stranger,
if u r a non-tamil and if you hate tamil more than anything in your life why is it that i see that a lot of your posts are in tamil language(with english script ofcourse)????

[stranger]

NO, I said, if I were you!

I meant if I were you, a non-tamil living in B'lore and tired of seeing tamils.

sorry about the poor communication! :)

[binal142001]

I do completely ignore this thread just like I ignore a tamilian. Just thought I should pinch this discussion a bit :lol:

[stranger]

Yeah, I do understand your feelings but unfortunately you could only "almost completely" ignore this thread and not completely as u wished for. :lol:

[bis_mala]

[deleted)

I learn quite a lot from here.



So r u trying to say that tamil is supreme or what??

The title of the thread is Tamil - Elderliness, and not Tamil supreme! Here the writer of quoted line has misdirected himself!! In the nature of things in this world, something must be old, some other thing must be not so old and something else most recent. Anything can be old, for example the language of Nagaland (let's assume). This does not mean that you must bring yourself in direct opposition to that thing which is proposed or discovered to be old. To take such a stance is to get yourself worked up meaninglessly for no reason. If you can be happy with proposed antiquity of Sankrit, for the same reason logically . you should also tolerate the claimed antiquity of Tamil. The basis for decision one way or other depends on linguistic evidence and not on personal feelings, likes and dislikes.


I do completely ignore this thread just like I ignore a tamilian.

Pl do so! Ignore ...and that is the best you can do, if you are not an enthusiast, exponent or student of linguistics it is not for you since you may run the risk of misdirecting yourself. The elderliness or motherliness of Tamil or Sanskrit or any other classical language is not ipso facto against your own mother tongue or any other language you love!! In Linguistics as in any other discipline, one must at all times be objective and be balanced in view.

[Bebeto]

binal is facing marital problems as she said in her thread in the misc section. She should better buy a propper driver first and then the Rolls Royce if she is not facing any financial problems. Neglected housewifes are the most desperates.

The Tease is mine - a new saying

[Uthappam]

Neglected housewifes are the most desperates.

Why the neglect??

[Azhahan]

Neglected housewifes are the most desperates.

Why the neglect??

You mean all housewifes? ayyO, ayyO! We don't want more headaches or do we?

[Lambretta]

You mean all housewifes? ayyO, ayyO! We don't want more headaches or do we?
Better don't turn out to be an excuse for them to give yall the headaches then!

*DIGRESSION END*

[Azhahan]

I am just a simple and single man, I can only manage a few of the wifes man. Even Murugan manages two, atleast officially.

[Lambretta]

*RESTART*

I am just a simple and single man, I can only manage a few of the wifes man. Even Murugan manages two, atleast officially.
Ohh sorry I thot u were married, when u mentioned abt not wanting "headaches" from wives! So 'cudn't see y shud hav the "headaches" being single! But if u do intend to manage a few who aren't ur own, u'll still turn out to be an excuse for them (or their hubbies) to give u a headache! :wink:

*END*

[Azhahan]

The problem is not dealing with multiple housewives but the management :lol:

One is normal
Two are phenomenal
Three a small problem
More, you end on the graveyard
:lol:

[bis_mala]

How did you discover these principles?

[Idiappam]

How did you discover these principles?

Instincts!

[Lambretta]

How did you discover these principles?

Instincts!
I thot in his case it was experience lah! :P

[Azhahan]

How did you discover these principles?

Instincts!
I thot in his case it was experience lah! :P

I have experiences on the graveyard, it is cilly though. But still not ended on the graveyard yet. Not yet. But sooner or later... every body does :lol:

[bis_mala]

The problem is not dealing with multiple housewives but the management

Why only housewives? Why don't you include girlfriends as well? The more the merrier and you will be able to come out with more of such "experience" (?) or "instinctive" statements, won't u?

Looks like men develop philosophy only after getting multiple partners!!


I have experiences on the graveyard, it is cilly though. But still not ended on the graveyard yet.

So, whether on the graveyard or in the graveyard, you are already at the graveyard and your experience there is in progress ; only that it has yet to come to an end......Take care: Don't make the end of your experience the end of you.....!! Best wishes.

[stranger]

so, where is this thread heading now?! :roll:

[bis_mala]

so, where is this thread heading now?! :roll:

Our dear hubbers would like to take intervals from time to time and then steal glimpses of their housewives and girlfriends. Linguistics is after all a very heavy topic!!

Let's have something on track from you, just to demonstrate to them how to put themselves back on track!! Otherwise they will still be struggling with their housewives and girlfriends......

[F.S.Gandhi vandayar]

Dear Ms. bis_mala,

Thanks for your deep rooted and well-knit views earlier in this thread :!:

Give me sometime to write about "Jent Avesta" that was marked by me as follow up session in my last message.

Till that time let our disparate/desparate friends gambling here :!:

f.s.gandhi

[Azhahan]

Our dear hubbers would like to take intervals from time to time and then steal glimpses of their housewives and girlfriends. Linguistics is after all a very heavy topic!!

How right you are :!:

Mothers, housewives and girlfriends (and especially GW - a special message to stranger) - Indeed a heavy topic just like Linguistics :lol:

[stranger]

(and especially GW - a special message to stranger)

you dont have to remind me who you are in every life of yours! :lol:

Trust me, I can figure you out in few posts before the moderators do of course! :cool:

Let us see how long this "half-life" of your new avatar lasts! :)

Take it easy! :)

[Lambretta]

(and especially GW - a special message to stranger)

you dont have to remind me who you are in every life of yours! :lol:

Trust me, I can figure you out in few posts before the moderators do of course! :cool:

Let us see how long this "half-life" of your new avatar lasts! :)

Take it easy! :)
Aahh........shud've figured it out........Azhahan = Bebeto = Honey Bee = etc. = ..................= BAD BOY! :wink: :P :lol:

[Azhahan]

(and especially GW - a special message to stranger)

you dont have to remind me who you are in every life of yours! :lol:

Trust me, I can figure you out in few posts before the moderators do of course! :cool:

Let us see how long this "half-life" of your new avatar lasts! :)

Take it easy! :)
Aahh........shud've figured it out........Azhahan = Bebeto = Honey Bee = etc. = ..................= BAD BOY! :wink: :P :lol:
My compliments Lambretta,

it seems that I am not the one and only smartest here in the hub :lol:

Let me see what I can do when the next moderator retires or resigns or even busted by Bad Boy. You should be the substitute :lol:

Last night I thought to myself (yes, sometimes I really do) that I can even make all the polls point less. Just imagine, with each and every new ID I take I cast my vote for my favorite :!:

I again and again prove the Hub heads and the mods that it is absolute nonsense to compare their smartness with that of BB. They once disabled the T-online provider in order to keep me out but in vain. I am their hub virus they can't get rid of. I had been the Jester of Kings and the King of all Jesters. Oh yes, Jester King was also once my ID. :lol: There was a thread where once Surya was wondering about BB's absence. He even did not realize as I asked him which BB he is searching for - Bad Boy, Boris Becker, Brigitte Bardot, BB King and so on. :lol:
They don't learn the lessons well thus I still keep on teaching them adamantly. It is just a hub sport. :lol:

OK, let us get back to the topic.

Sorry (but not really) for the digression :lol:
I hope you all enjoy - I know except The hub heads and Surya of course.

[bis_mala]

[tscii:58d26f81a6]This is a case of derailment rather than proceeding on the wrong track.
Let's go back.

To prove Tamil's elderliness among world languages:

maka (T) = offspring.

maka + kaL = makkaL (people)
makan > mOn son ++
makaL > mOL daughter
makaar = small children.
makavu = child
makaduu = woman. Á¸Þ¯( in ancient Tamil lit and grammar )
makaram * animals: such as: fish, crocodile, pollen of flower
makarantham *= pollen of flower

maka(m) (T) * > mruga(m) (Skrt) ma > mru usual corruption.

* these are t animals or things born or produced in nature.

mac < Irish mac 'son' (MacDonald, MacMahon etc)
Proto-Indo-European *maghos 'young', *maghu 'child, boy'
Old English magu 'child, son, man';
Kannada maga 'son';
Bantu manku, mongo 'child';
Proto-Caucasian *mik'w- 'young one';
Proto-Tibeto-Burman mak 'son-in-law';
Papuan mak 'child';
Natick mukketchouks 'boy';
Beothuk magaraguis 'son';
Acoma mage 'girl';
Cayuse m'oks 'baby';
Modoc mukak 'girl';
Zuni maki 'young woman'

++ note: the word form mOn used commonly in Jaffna and Kerala has
been found in a stone inscription in Lanka, dated to 300 BC (Dr Paramu Pushparatnam ) [ giving from my memory ] Linguistically, the term maka preceded the derivations mOn and mOL. (e.g. pakuthi > paathi, mikuthi > miithe, pukaiyilai > pOyilai, mukadu > mOdu ). It does not appear that the terms mOn and mOL are found in Tolkaappiyam and this is an additional reason for me to think that the grammatical treatise preceded this period i.e., 300 BCE. of stone inscription. Much of the grammar stated in Tolkaappiyam was also not followed in most of Sangam literature. Another reason to say that it preceded much of Sangam literature. At Tolkaappiyar's time, the word for nine (9) was thondu. This word is never found in any Tamil literature as far as I can remember and read and it was only found in Tolkaappiyam. Another reason to think that Tolkaappiyam preceded the last Sangam. But thondu survived in word forms such as thoNNuuRu (thon) and thoLLaayiram (thoL). This and for many other reasons I am firmly of the view that Tamil is a very old language. The submergence (kadalkOL ) was so bad that the ancient Tamils even lost some of their numbers !!
They had their own fractions and names of fractions: kaaNi, araikkANi, munthiri,etc and the ways of writing them. These were ketti eNchuvadi and one was published and available in Malaysia till after World War II according to sources. I am looking for a copy.
Guys, If you know anymore please add to the list.[/tscii:58d26f81a6]

[Lambretta]

*DIGRESSION*

My compliments Lambretta,
it seems that I am not the one and only smartest here in the hub :lol:
Let me see what I can do when the next moderator retires or resigns or even busted by Bad Boy. You should be the substitute :lol:
U mean for u or the moderator?? I wudn't fancy being either tho.....I'm rather lazy when it comes to tat! :D
Neways nice talkin to u buddy!

*END DIGRESSION*

[Lambretta]

[tscii]They had their own fractions and names of fractions: kaaNi, araikkANi, munthiri,etc and the ways of writing them.
I've heard of Kaani.......I rem. my granpa telling me abt it, twas a fraction in currency, Kaani, Dhamdi, Paavala (which I think meant 1/4 rupee).......r all these other fraction names also dervied from Tamil??

[paulthomas]

Friends,

CAN somebody link to historical sites that discusses on Asoka dating. I read from a Specific Tamil group which dates Asoka to 2nd Millenim BCE.

Budda is also dated to 1800 BCE.

please link me to discusion papers please.

paulthoumas.

[bis_mala]

[tscii:24cb31fafb]]Lambretta wrote:

//quoting bis_mala :They had their own fractions and names of fractions: kaaNi, araikkANi, munthiri,etc and the ways of writing them.
I've heard of Kaani.......I rem. my granpa telling me abt it, twas a fraction in currency, Kaani, Dhamdi, Paavala (which I think meant 1/4 rupee).......r all these other fraction names also dervied from Tamil??//


Kaani, Dhamdi, Paavala (which I think meant 1/4 rupee).......r all these other fraction names also dervied from Tamil??

kaaNi - is tamil.
dhamdi from thampidi - also Tamil.

paavala derived from pakavaLavu - meaning simply a fraction of something.
À¸×+ «Ç× = À¸ÅÇ× > À¡ÅÇ.
just like pakkavadai > pakkavada > pakkOdaa (word corruption).

À¸ÅÇ× > À¡ÅÇ.
like pakuthi > paathi À̾¢ > À¡¾¢. pakal (=part) > paal (=part or side)[/tscii:24cb31fafb]

[bis_mala]

Can someone give the contents of the speech of Fr, Heras, the world renown archeologist, in Annamalai University, wherein he confessed the love he had for Tamil and Dravidian languages and called himself : "the Spanish Dravidian!". to the applause of the learned audience he was facing.

It is one of the many instances where a world expert had heaped praise on Tamil. Grateful if some good soul can supply the full speech with references.

thanks

[stranger]

It is one of the many instances where a world expert had heaped praise on Tamil. Grateful if some good soul can supply the full speech with references.

:clap:

Yeah, unfortunately, Latinos, English and Americans have more respect for thamizh -as they are open-minded- than our nasty neighbors! :P

[Lambretta]

[tscii:42f66c2865]
kaaNi - is tamil.
dhamdi from thampidi - also Tamil.

paavala derived from pakavaLavu - meaning simply a fraction of something.
À¸×+ «Ç× = À¸ÅÇ× > À¡ÅÇ.
just like pakkavadai > pakkavada > pakkOdaa (word corruption).

À¸ÅÇ× > À¡ÅÇ.
like pakuthi > paathi À̾¢ > À¡¾¢. pakal (=part) > paal (=part or side)
Many tks for the info. on tat one! :D[/tscii:42f66c2865]

[bis_mala]

Friends,

CAN somebody link to historical sites that discusses on Asoka dating. I read from a Specific Tamil group which dates Asoka to 2nd Millenim BCE.

Budda is also dated to 1800 BCE.

please link me to discusion papers please.

paulthoumas.


You have dating problems? Should sort out all such immediately. What better time than Christmas holidays? Re-consult your school text books which give the dates and get everything sorted out before the new year. Don't let such problems mar your 2006.

btw, these dates have nothing to do with the topic here!!

[abbydoss1969]

The Indus script

The articles by acknowledged experts in the field of archaeology on the Indus script ("Horseplay in Harappa", October 13 and "A tale of two horses", November 24) were educative.

It was Fr. Henry Heras, the Dravidian from Spain as he proudly called himself, who first declared that the language of the Indus Valley seal inscriptions was proto-Dravidian. His Studies in Proto-Indo-Mediterranean Culture, Volume I (1953) is a cl assic that gives rare insights. Although experts who tried to decipher the Indus script later have not accepted the particular readings given by Fr. Heras, no reputed scholar has contested his conclusion.

Among those who have tried to decipher the Indus script as proto-Dravidian are Walter A. Fairservis (no more with us now), Asko Parpola, Y.V. Knorozov and Iravatham Mahadevan. Among the eminent archaeologists and philologists who endorse this view are th e great Sanskritist Dr. Burrow Bridget and Raymon Allchin (archaeologists) and Kamil V. Zvelebil, one of the foremost Dravidian linguists. The best summary of this issue has been given by Zvelebil in Dravidian Linguistics, An Introduction (Pondich erry Institute of Language and Culture, Pondicherry, 1990). No reasonable person can cavil against his conclusion that "the most probable candidate is and remains some form of Dravidian".

Stanley Wolpert paraphrases this scholarly consensus in a more telling manner in his An Introduction to India (University of California Press, 1991): "We assume from various shreds of evidence that they were proto-Dravidian, possibly using a langu age that was a grandfather of modern Tamil."

Among the numerous attempts made by Tamil-knowing scholars (apart from the doyen among them, I. Mahadevan) to decipher the Indus script from the proto-Dravidian angle, the work of Dr. R. Madhivanan, Chief Editor of the Tamil Etymological Dictionary Proje ct, seems to be based on a sound knowledge of ancient Tamil etymology and grammar (beginning from Tholkappiam) and an awareness of all the proto-historical, archaeological, cultural and anthropological backgrounds of the issue. Madhivanan's work < I>Indus Script - Dravidian (Tamil Sandror Peravai, Chennai, 1995) gives his readings of the seal inscriptions as syllabic representations of names of merchants, chiefs, priests and gods of proto-Tamil vintage. Madhivanan buttresses his reading withth e bio-script metal seal discovered by Indrapala at Anaikottai in Yalpanam with the word Tivu Ko (according to Madhivanan) in Indus Valley script and also in southern Brahmi script; and the Indus script-like cave inscriptions at Keezhavalai on the Villupuram-Thiruvannamalai road in Tamil Nadu.

Scholars such as Parpola and Mahadevan have not accepted the readings of Madhivanan so far. However, there is no gainsaying that attempts to decipher the Indus script cannot ignore the sound linguistic and grammatical parameters set by Madhivanan for dec ipherment.

P. Ramanathan

Chennai

<a href="http://www.flonnet.com/fl1801/18011050.htm"target="blank"><http://www.flonnet.com/fl1801/18011050.htm/a>

[abbydoss1969]

Can someone give the contents of the speech of Fr, Heras, the world renown archeologist, in Annamalai University, wherein he confessed the love he had for Tamil and Dravidian languages and called himself : "the Spanish Dravidian!". to the applause of the learned audience he was facing.

It is one of the many instances where a world expert had heaped praise on Tamil. Grateful if some good soul can supply the full speech with references.

thanks

try these google searches
<a href="http://www.google.co.in/search?as_q=henry+heras&num=10&hl=en&btnG=Google+Search&as_epq=dravidian&as_oq=&as_eq=&lr=&as_ft=i&as_filetype=&as_qdr=all&as_occt=any&as_dt=i&as_sitesearch=&as_rights=&safe=images" target="blank">http://www.google.co.in/search?as_q=henry+heras&num=10&hl=en&btnG=Google+Search&as_epq=dravidian&as_oq=&as_eq=&lr=&as_ft=i&as_filetype=&as_qdr=all&as_occt=any&as_dt=i&as_sitesearch=&as_rights=&safe=images /a>

[Uppuma]

Friends,

As per archeolgoy, Tamil writing came from North India to us, The Asoka Brahmi, was modified to Tamil Brahmi, and it came to Srilanka first and later to Coastal Tamilnadu; later spread to Entire Tamilnadu. I saw in my Archieves, an article on Srilankan History for a discusion please.
A PROBLEM OF HISTORY- RE VISITED - II
(1998 December 02)
People of Mr. Naganathan's ilk are not sure of what they are talking about. According to some like Gnanapragasar the Nagas were Tamils and had lived in this country from time immemorial. Some think that the Sinhala people came in the 6th century B.C. and conquered the Island from those original Tamils. There is no historical evidence for this what so ever as Dr. Indrapalan has shown in his Ph. D. thesis. Mr. Naganathan, it appears that, subscribes to what may be called the residual Naga theory. However it is not clear what he is really implying. It could mean that some Nagas were absorbed into the Sinhala nation, but the others remained as Nagas, or it may be that of the tribes Yaksha, Naga, Deva, Rakshasas, the tribes other than the Nagas, together with the Aryans who came around the 6th century B.C. went into form the Sinhala nation but the Nagas continued as Nagas. But Mr. Naganathan cannot present a consistent picture.

For example as I have already mentioned ( A PROBLEM OF HISTORY - RE VISITED - I ) he talks of Saddhatissa and his son Khallatanaga and the rest to establish his residual Naga theory. As I have shown, the fact that Saddhatissa had a son called Khallatanaga proves neither that there were Tamils then nor that the father, the son or both were Nagas. Mr. Naganathan also appears to believe that Saddhatissa was Sinhala. Is he trying to imply that the mother of Khallatanaga was a Naga? Even if it was the case it does not make Khallatanaga a Tamil king. I will come to a more general version of this problem later.

Mr. Naganathan's next version tells us that the 'Sri Lankan Tamils, by and large, are not
aliens but natives of the soil, being as much mutual descendants of the indigenous Hela
(Eela) people, with the difference that the one were acculturated and adopted a Prakrit of
Sanskrit as language and Buddhism as religion, and the other Tamil and Saivism,
respectively.' He proceeds: 'Having said this, I must allow for the fact that the early "Tamils" in Sri Lanka were (as in S. India) profoundly Jain and Buddhist. Hence, as I pointed out previously, they would have gone to form the non- Tweedledum Tweedledee population of Buddhist residents of the country, who were not Sinhala -speaking.'

This is not a bad hypotheses if not for the fact that there is no evidence to substantiate it. The all-important question is what is the culture and the history that these non-Sinhala Buddhists have created in this country say from the time of Sena Guttika? Dr. Indrapalan has conclusively shown that there were no Tamil settlements, whether Buddhist, Jaina or any other, in this country before the tenth century and he categorically states that the early history is that of the Sinhala people. Archaeologists and Historians such as Drs. Paranavithana and Nilakanta Sastri are of the same view. When confronted with facts all that Mr. Naganathan can do is to respond with statements like "Dr. Indrapalan can go and fly a kite." Mr. Naganathan in order to refute Dr. Indrapalan says in his own style that there are several 'noble' families including that of his mother's who "trace their descent to Cholan chiefs who arrived with the expansion of the Chola empire."

In fact as I have said on many occasions there would not have been even Senas and Guttikas if not for the Mahavansaya, which happens to be the only source of relief for people of Mr. Naganathan's ilk. Not only that there were no Tamils in Sri Lanka in early times there is no evidence to show that the Tamils in South India then were predominantly Buddhists or Jains. This is what Dr. Nilakanta Sastri has to say on this matter in his 'A History of South India' (second edition). "The exact contents of these inscriptions still remain obscure, but a few facts emerge from tentative studies of them. We can say, for instance, that among the donors of monuments were a husbandman (kutumbika) of Ceylon ( Ila), besides a woman, merchants (vanikar), and members of the Karani caste. ........... Yet it seems easy to exaggerate their social and religious significance; there is no evidence that the Tamil people in general had accepted Jainism or Buddhism in this early period; and the evidence from the literature of the succeeding age, that of the Sangam, shows the Vedic religion of sacrifice and some forms of popular Hinduism entrenched in the affections of the people and their rulers." (Pg.87)

It should be remembered that Ila is derived from Sihala (References in TULF, BUDGET AND THE ORIGINAL PEOPLE ) and that the kutumbika had gone to South India from the Sihaladeepa. I must also add that the Sangam period according to Dr. Nilakanta Sastri is the first three or four centuries A.D. (Pg. 110). On the question of the ancestors of Mr. Naganathan all I can do is to quote Dr. Nilakanta Sastri, so that the readers can come to their own judgement. " The rise of the imperial Cholas of the line of Vijayalaya may be dated from the middle of the ninth century A.D. As they emerged from their obscurity, (after the Sangam period- my emphasis) they soon displaced the remnants of Pallava power to the north of their capital Tanjore, and subdued the Pandya and Chera countries in the south and invaded Ceylon." (Pg.5). Mr. Naganathan's claim, that his mother's family descended from a Chola chief who arrived with the expansion of the Chola empire, is not in contradiction with the conclusion of Dr. Indrapalan, that there were no Tamil settlements in Sri Lanka before the tenth century. However, Dr. Nilakanta Sastri says that the Cholas invaded Sri Lanka and this means that the Chola chiefs would have arrived in this country as invaders.

Mr. Naganathan and people of his ilk try to create the impression that since some of the Sinhala kings either had names ending with Siva or Naga while some others had connections to dynasties in Pandya and Kalinga countries, Tamil/ Dravida kings have ruled Sri Lanka together with Sinhala kings intermittently. Even if one assumes that there have been Tamil/Dravida persons occupying the throne it does not make the kingdom a Tamil kingdom. The present ruling family in England, the Windsors, have all sorts of connections with the other, let us say Royal or Ksathriya, families in Europe. In fact it is said that Ms. Diana Spencer was one of the few English to be married to an heir to the throne in the Windsor family. But that did not make the Windsors Germans, French, Greeks or any other nationality. They were and are considered as English kings and queens for the simple reason that they are the kings and queens of the English people. In other words they sat on the English throne. The person who sits on the English throne is an English king or queen irrespective of his or her ancestral connections. The Royals and the Ksathriyas, whether they are from the west or the east have had a tradition of getting wives and husbands from similar families irrespective of the country of origin.

Parakramabahus and Nissankamallas may have had Pandya and Kalinga connections. That is irrelevant as far as the throne is considered. They sat on the Sinhala throne as Sinhala kings. It was Parakramabahu in one of his battles asked for a Sinhala sword while Nissankamalla famous for his inscriptions had a stone inscription in Sinhala erected in Rameswaram in respect of his visit to South India. (P. B. Rambukwella: Commentary on Sinhala Kingship, Pg. 79).It is not the dynasty that matters but the throne. In any case, for the information of Mr. Naganathan and the rest, Kalinga, which came under the Asokan empire, is roughly, present Orissa and was not a Dravida country.

Even the Vaduga kings, originally from present Andra Pradesh, sat on the Sinhala throne, and yes, as Buddhists whether Sri Wickrama Rajasinghe looked like Tweedledum and Tweedledee or not. In fact even George III had to undertake the task of protecting Buddhism through what is known as the Kandyan Convention before he could make any claim whatsoever to the Sinhala throne or the kingdom of Sinhale. Of course the English, being the perfect gentlemen they are, had no respect for the convention.

Now let us look at the early history of the Tamils in general. What I give below is only a summary and I may give more details in some of the future articles depending on the availability of space and time. There are some people who think that the pre-Aryan history in India (and Sri Lanka) is Dravidian. This is far from truth. The tribes, who lived in this part of the world before the Aryans arrived were not Dravidian. In fact the Dravidians have come to India (South) later than the Aryans.

I quote again from 'A History of South India'. " It must be admitted that much of this evidence on which the old approach to the Dravidian problem was based is vague and circumstantial, and furnishes no reliable framework. Not so the recent and very plausible attempt of Fuerer-Haimendorf to equate the Dravidian-speakers with the iron using Megalithic folk who came to South India from the west by sea, perhaps leaving colonies along the coast in the course of their migration -which may account for the Megaliths near Karachi and Brahui in Baluchistan. He thinks that an immigration of Dravidian speakers about 500 B.C. would allow sufficient time for the development of the early Tamil literature of the Sangam." (Pg. 62).

However Dr. Nilakanta Sastri does not agree with Fuerer Haimendorf and he suggests that the Dravidians arrived in South India more or less at the same time as the Aryans came to North India. But he himself says that " it is evident that starting somewhere about 1000 B.C. the movement of the Aryans into the South proceeded more or less steadily and peacefully, and had reached its completion sometime before the establishment of the Mauryan empire which included in its fold all India except the extreme South." (Pg.67).

Now Dr. Paranavithana in his book 'Sinhalayo' states: "The culture represented by the megalithic monuments cannot have developed from that of the Stone Age, for the two were not separated from each other by an appreciable interval of time. Therefore, it has been inferred that the Dravidian people, the bearers of the megalithic culture, came to South India from elsewhere. Megaliths with the same characteristics as are distinctive of the South Indian monuments, have been found in Western Asia. It has therefore been suggested that the Dravidian people migrated to South India from a region, still undetermined, in Western Asia, and that they sojourned for some time in the region around Karacci in Sindh, where groups of megaliths similar to those in South India have been reported.

Aryan culture had been introduced to South India before the arrival of the Dravidians; and three kingdoms, Pandya, Cola and Cera, had been founded somewhat earlier than the establishment of a kingdom of Indo-Aryan culture in Ceylon. The invading Dravidians, apparently, imposed their dominion on these kingdoms which had been founded before their advent, and continued their names." (Pg. 8).

Though there may be disagreements over the period, it is difficult to avoid the conclusion that the Dravidians arrived in South India after the Aryans. It was the Aryan kingdoms Pandya, Cola and Cera which became Dravidian most probably around the time of the Mauryan empire. Dravidianisation of South India has come after its Aryanisation and no wander that the people stuck to most of the gods in the Vedic religions even after Dravidianisation.

In Sri Lanka the same process could have taken place. However, it did not happen that way and the man responsible for the turn of events was none other than Dutugemunu. With the findings from the recent excavations in Anuradhapura by Dr. Shiran Deraniyagala, there cannot be any doubt as to the arrival of the Aryans in this country somewhere around the 6th century B.C. A Sinhala civilisation based on the Aryan culture as well as the culture of the Yakshas and Nagas was established and during the time of king Devanampiya Tissa the Sinhala people became Buddhists. Soon after, the first wave of Dravidians arrived in this country. As Dr. Paranavithana has mentioned in his 'Sinhalayo' the Dravidians were almost succesful.

"The few megalithic monuments and urn-burials discovered in Ceylon are obviously an overflow from South India. The archaeological evidence is supported by literary sources. The Dravidian peoples influenced the course of the Island's history about the same time they gained mastery over the South Indian kingdoms, or shortly afterwards. Within three or four decades from the death of Devanampiya Tissa, Dravidian invaders made an attempt to impose their dominion over Ceylon, and almost succeeded. The first Dravidian attack on Ceylon recorded in the Chronicles is said to have been led by Sena and Guttika, described as merchant mariners who dealt in horses. They appear to have come direct from the Sindhu region, which was noted in ancient days for its fine breed of horses". (Pg.9).

Mr. Naganathan seems to believe that it is necessary to have Dravidians in advance in a country so that a Dravidian invader can rule that country after conquering. The Dravidianisation of India itself proves the fallacy of that argument. If it is generalised to any conqueror then it would have been necessary to have a Portuguese population in advance, in this country for the Portuguese conquerors to rule the coastal areas for more than hundred years.

Leaving aside that type of argument it is clear that from the time of Suratissa (247-237 B.C.) to Valagamba (89-77 B.C.) there have been at least three attempts to Dravidianise this country and during a period of 148 years Sena Guttika (22 yrs.), Elara (44 yrs.) and the five Dravida kings(14 yrs.) have ruled Anuradhapura for 80 years. We must not forget that Bhalluka's ( who came after Elara ) was another attempt. That was one of the most crucial periods in this country. The Sinhala civilisation (Aryanised Yaksha Naga) had to struggle very hard not to allow Sri Lanka taking the same path as South India and end up as a Dravidian country. It should be emphasised that after the victory of Valagamba there were no invasions for a period of about 520 years as Mr. Rambukwella and others have pointed out

As Dr. Paranavithana and others have observed the Dravidians have come to South India through Sindhu region. It is probable that not only Sena Guttika but even Elara, Bhalluka and the five Dravida kings came from the same region. They would have been part of waves of Dravidian arrivals in South India and Sri Lanka. The fact that there were no invasions after the victory of Valagamba could imply that these Dravidian arrivals stopped by that time and also the Dravidian states in formation in South India were not strong enough to invade Sri Lanka. The next stage begins after the formation of the Dravidian states and it is believed that the Seven Dravida kings who invaded in 431 A.C. were Kalabhras.

The histories of South India and Sri Lanka are undoubtedly interconnected. Both South India and Sri Lanka were Aryanised. Then South India was Dravidianised. But the Sinhala Buddhist consciousness imparted by the king Dutugemunu and the others was able to resist the Dravidianisation process in Sri Lanka not only up to the time of five Dravida kings who would have come directly from Sindhu region as those Dravidians who came to South India, but even after the formation of the Dravidian states in South India. Whether we like it or not we have to admit that fact. However much Mr. Naganathan and the others of his ilk may try to Dravidianise a non- Dravida history they will not succeed.
--------
I realy have no opinion, but want experts to discuss.

Uppuma

[Bärlin]

Are we discussing the script?

[Bärlin]

The histories of South India and Sri Lanka are undoubtedly interconnected. Both South India and Sri Lanka were Aryanised. Then South India was Dravidianised. But the Sinhala Buddhist consciousness imparted by the king Dutugemunu and the others was able to resist the Dravidianisation process in Sri Lanka not only up to the time of five Dravida kings who would have come directly from Sindhu region as those Dravidians who came to South India, but even after the formation of the Dravidian states in South India. Whether we like it or not we have to admit that fact. However much Mr. Naganathan and the others of his ilk may try to Dravidianise a non- Dravida history they will not succeed.
--------
I realy have no opinion, but want experts to discuss.

Uppuma
Uppuma, as someone of no oppinion and the knower of aryanised singhala dutta gemunu you can for sure tell me the singhala word for parliament. It is nothing else but parliament too. This so called Aryan Language is not at all aryan. It is a composition of Vedda, Tamil, Prakrit and English. So, tell me what is Aryan? It is not cool but kuzh only.

[bis_mala]

As per archeolgoy, Tamil writing came from North India to us

North Indian writing came from Tamil. There was a time when Sanskrit (preceding Prakrit included) used Aramaic writing. Read John Keay's INDIAN HISTORY. There are also other historians saying it. There is no archeology saying that Tamil writing came from North India.

Other stuff in the post are badly mixed up.

Tamil writing: Please write in the thread "How did the Tamil written characters evolve?" instead of lumping up everything here.

[bis_mala]

[tscii:84a67e8019]//It should be remembered that Ila is derived from Sihala//


Sinhala is a mixed language, It contains Tamil, Telugu Prakrit and few other elements including those from South East Asia. As to contribution of Tamil to Sinhala, go and read books by the Sinhala writer and researcher: Lionel Sarath.

Read also some posts from the thread: Is Tamil derived from Sanskrit in the Tamil Literature Section. The word Sinhala itself has been said to have derived from Tamil roots.


¾õ + (þú) = ¾Á¢ú.

(þú ) + «õ = ®Æõ. ( vowel in the first word elongated, as in ÍÎ + «ý = ݼý. )

Neelakanda Shastri said "X". But M Seenivasa Iyengar said "Y". So should we believe X or Y?

M S Iyengar thinks that þú is from =þØõ, the sweet juice from the palm tree.

Indrabala said Kathirgamam is from Kathirigaama and gama means village, from Prakrit or its offspring Sanskrit: graama.

But it has been pointed out by other researchers that the word graamam is kamam ( not kaamam, and please do not mistake ) ¸Áõ in Tamil which means village.

Anyway these are not directly relevant to this topic!! I read their books some time back. [/tscii:84a67e8019]

[Lambretta]

Sinhala is a mixed language, It contains Tamil, Telugu Prakrit and few other elements including those from South East Asia. As to contribution of Tamil to Sinhala, go and read books by the Sinhala writer and researcher: Lionel Sarath.
I've had Sinhalese friends in Sing......when they spoke it it sounded a lot like Malyalam! :D

[F.S.Gandhi vandayar]

Dear Friends, :)

It was very much pleasure to celebrate Pongal, tamil’s harvest festival, in home, with relatives, fortunately my annual vacation also falls on it, in ‘SURAVAM’ month (Thai) which is to be and was the new year of ancient tamils. Valluvar says, “Sulantrum Ear Pinnathu Ulagam” which means all forms of businesses of world are based on agriculture and this is being proved by the utterances of WTO recently.

By the by, As usual, Mr. Uppuma quoted / followed the author of selective quoting :!: Opposite views are welcome but not confusionistic fashion.

Not only Mr.K.A.Sastri :!: P.T. Srinivasa Iyengar also had the same view about sankams :!: But it must be borne in mind that both of them have shown strong evidances in their books in support of origin of world primitive civilizations of tamils and one of such quoting from Sastri have been already given by me in the beginning of this thread.

Unfortunately both of them did not have the chance of knowing full research results of sankam anthology during their time and that process was going on.

Let us see the evidances of sankam’s presence in tamil literature.

1. “ Nanpattup pulavanai SANKAMERI
Narkanakak Kizhi, tharumik karulin kaan” – Thevaram

2. “SANKAP Pulavar Mun” – Periya puranam.
3. “SANKATH thamil Moontrum Thaa” – Avvaiyar.

We can leave the above because these were written after 400 CE which were taken as references by Sastri & Iyengar.

But the following were written earlier which have the truth about sankams as ‘KOODALS’ during BCE.

4. “Uyarmathil KOODALIN Aintha OnThamil” – Thiruvasakam (300 CE)

5.The battle of ‘Thalayanakkanam’ is essential in tamil history. Timeline is 150 BCE.(conformed by Kalinga Karavelan inscriptions)

Pandiyan Nedunchezian vows as,

“MANGUDI MARUTHAN THALAIVAN AAGA
Ulakamodu nilaiyiya palar pukazh sirapin
Pulavar Paadathu Vraika En Nilavarai - Puranaanuru – 72

Here sankam (Third sankam) is identified with Mangudi Maruthan one of heads of poets.

Valluvar also says , “ Uvappath THALAI KOODI ullap pirithal
Anaiththaey PULAVAR Thozhil”.

6. “Punar KOOTTU Unda PukalChal Sirapu
Nilantharu Thiruvin Nediyon Pola” - Mathuraik Kanchi.

In this Nediyon (2000 BCE) is refered by Mangudi Maruthanar,the author.

Nediyon is specified by Nettimaiyar as the ancestor of Muthu kudimip peru Vazhuthi who collected ‘Akanaanuru’ of Third sankam as follows.
“Munneer Vizhavin NEDIYON
Nanneer PAHRULI manalinum palavae”

Nediyon belongs to the timeline of Pahruli river’s presence.(2000 BCE)-First Sankam Period.

Hence there are enough literary as well as archeological proofs that Three sankam existed before Common era as mentioned in “Erayanar Akapporul Urai”.

Sinkala history is based on “Mahaa vamsam”. Saathavakanas(Anthra/Vaduka telugu), Kalinkas (oriya/ottars) & Mahathas (Kankai/prakirit) were called summarily as “Mukkalingas” (Three kalinkas) and especially the kalingas(oriya-mixture of vaduku & prakird) invaded through Srilanka’s South East and mixed with the existing tamil race and formulated sinkala language. Kalinkan Empire timeline is 300 BCE.

There is no single Aryan site anywhere in India & world evacuated so far and Maxmuller the father of Aryan theory confessed that there is no Aryan race, in his later years and so there is no Aryan race anywhere in India or world. I may write about it later.

Out of Megalithics so far found out in India (all are only in South India) TamilNadu has 391, Karnataka 300, Anthra 147, Kerala18 & Maharastra 90. All conforms to New Stone Age.(4000 BCE).

Salem’s Pig Iron (Tamil Urukku turned English Wootz Steel) produced by Tamil ‘Katti parayar’ and exported to all western countries (Refer Prehistoric Ancient India by R.D.Banerji) including Masitonia – The country of Alexandar (600 BCE).

The natural transformation of livings of tamils gradually from mountains(Kurinji) to forest(mullai) is revealed by this. Because without invention of Iron Forest living would be difficult.

Hence, Civilizational flow occurred from South to North and not vice versa in ancient days. There is no question of Pre Dravidian/tamil culture anywhere in India. The foremost empire is Pandiyan & Cheran,Cholan, Sathavakanan & Mahatham(north) were ancient empires timewise respectively. I may write more when I deal with Indian culture later.

Asokan ‘Brahmi’(300 BCE) (and tamil Brahmi also since it is slightly different from Asokan Brahmi) was based on tamil ‘Thaamizhi” script practiced during 500 BCE. Dr.S.Rajavel (Madurai University) has proved this by analyzing the “Thaamizhi”scripts around Madurai. Adichanallur urns Script (1000 BCE) is also resembles rather “Thaamizhi” than Tamil Brahmi.

Jain’s Brahmi (100 BCE) in tamil never follows Tholkappiam Grammar (by The.Po.Meenakshi Sundaram –Tamil Elakkiya Varalaaru) and hence it should not be taken as proof for tamil’s earlier scripts. Asokan Brahmi contains message of Chera,Chola,Pandya and Sathyaputhira (Vaduku kannadikaas). This means Asoka knew Tamil kingdoms.

Rajavel further explains that for example in ‘Thaamizhi’ there is no difference for consonant & vowel. This process was followed in kirantha & Vattezuthu scripts of tamil. For ‘K’ and ‘KA’ symbol (+) was used. Whereas in Asokan Brahmi the consonants were added and this was the later development.

We have to know the tamil language to study the “Thaamizhi” script. But We need not know any language to read ‘Brahmi’ script.

Hence with this background we can come to know the tamils script is the earliest whether it is “Thaamizhi” / Brahmi.

In future I may write about West Asian history further in contiuation of my ealier passage and then come to Indina ancient history.

f.s.gandhi

[F.S.Gandhi vandayar]

JENT AVESTA (600 BCE)

References :

(1)The Gospel of Zauthushtra, Introduction by Duncan Greenless
(2)Jend Avesta. Part 1 : The Vendidad
(3)The sacred books of the East Vol.4 , James Darmesleter
(4)Pahlavi text, Part 1, E.W. West, ibid Vol.5
(5)The New Britanica Encyclopedia Britanica, 15th edition
(6)Anchor Bible dictionary (For West Asian words meanings)
(7)Feeders of Indian – B.S. Upaththiyaya

‘Jent Avesta’ is sacred book of Jews and was the base for both at simulations and contraries of religions “Isravel”s (Christians) and Ibrahims(Mohammdians).

‘Jent’(Persian),Gente(Pahlavi) means ‘to know’(tamil ‘Kaan’ / Kaandikai). ‘Avestac’(Persian), ‘Avistae’(Pahlavi) means Advertised / Declared (tamil- A+Viththakam-Vitral)

Jents are explanatory notes of Avestas. Jent Avesta are considered as wonderful literature of Persian language. It was transferred orally among priests from 600 BCE and at last had written form in Pahlavi Language only at 531 CE since the script evolved only during that time.

When Alexandar / Skandar (Tamil kandar) won Persia during 330 BCE Avesta traditions were cut off and again refurbished. During that time Persians moved to present Gujarat.

We have to note that The father of Indian nation, Mahatma Gandhi is a Persian. Feroz Gandhi who married Indira Gandhi is also a Persian. Tata & Birla who put seeds to Indian ‘millionarism’ are Persians.

A Indian Persian called ‘Neiyochenk’ translated ‘Avesta’ as ‘Yasua’ into Sanskrit during 1500 CE.

During 1771 CE ‘Ankvettil Dubasan’ translated ‘Avesta’ into French from Gujarat Persians. It must be noted Gujarathi & Pahlavi languages have similarities.

‘Zarathustra’ was God Sun’s messenger (tamil Suriya-zara, Thuthar-Thustra) who states the rules that are to be followed by people in the struggle against bad elements.

The religion that was before Zarathustrar is ‘Maji’(Asiriyan) (Tamil-Mayon). Zarathustra propogated a refined ‘Maji’ called ‘Majesta’.

Concepts : God’s name are Mejesta / Asura Majesta / Aavara Majesta /Oor Majesta /Aravamaithi. He works for good.

Aukura Manyu / Aka mana / Aakriman are evil forces. He works for evil things.

In the above Aravamaithi and Aka mana are direct tamil words and others are the phonetically shrinked form of these two.

Akura Mejesta is God of Storm. Aka mana is god of Sattan(ghost). The war between these two happens in the place ‘Vai’ / Varana which means ‘Vaccum’. In support of Akura Majesta / Aaravamaithi the ‘Zarathustra’ (Suriya Thuthar) comes as ‘Mithra’(Friend-tamil Mynthu) in sky as great ‘sky light’/ flash.

‘Vai’ in tamil also means Vaccum which covers the whole world. Vai+Akam= Vaiyakam means world. ‘Varana’ is from tamil ‘Arunam’ which means ‘Thodu Vaanam’- The place where sky touches Sea. ‘Vari’ also means Sea and ‘Varunan’ / Varanan is God of Sea people (Neithal land).

In war ‘Asuras’ are in support of Akura Majesta. Theevar (Thevar) who had head as ‘Inthira’ are in opposite camp.

Inthiran was god of ‘Marutham’ land in Kumari Kandam. They migrated to ‘Kokra’ river of Saraswathi Valley. Vedhic hymns in prakrit / chandal form were sung.

‘Asuras’ were followers of ‘Mayon’ (Majesta) in kumari kandam. They migrated through Persian Gulf to Eran in which Mesometomian culture contains tamil elements. Paluchistan is also a witness where tamilian ‘Prahui’ language is still present.

The war happened between these groups through Arabian Sea of Gujarat and Indukush Mountains of Afkhanistan which has Kyber & Bolen passages.

In South India these two worship was turned into Siva(Seyon) & Thirumal (Vishnu) is different story.

f.s.gandhi

[srivatsanvr]

I have never seen "Tamizh Patrons and Tamizh Lovers" project Tamizh without degrading other Language. I think these people should understand the reality.

Yes The Greeks have cultural Bondage with Asia. This has been told in MaahaBharatha itself..The Greece supported Pandavaas in the Great War and in turn, one of the Yudhishtira's daughter was married to the prince of Greece.

The Greeks were also foloowing "Sanaathana Dharmam" and Tamizh people were not following something different from this Sanaathana Dharma". This thread's authos seems to project an image that Tamizhiyans were following an altogether different way od life. No it was not. There is no second opinion that Tamizh is one of the oldest and beautiful languages.

It seems that the author of this topic has an inherent hatred towards the Non-Tamizh! Please stop hating others and see things as they are.

[kannannn]

I wonder whose incarnation this is! :roll:

[indian224080]

When will u guys start to debate on the question raised rather than picking on the poster.

[bis_mala]

It seems that the author of this topic has an inherent hatred towards the Non-Tamizh! Please stop hating others and see things as they are.

The author has expressed fair views. He has just given research opinions. He has not said anything undesirable about other languages or their speakers.

[devapriya]

Friends,

We find that FSG AND Bismala with Great Interest rather Chavunism on Tamil and Twist or misinterpret the records.

Tamil Sangam Lit. are dated to 250BCE to 200CE, Tholkappiyam around 100-50 BCE, and Vedas to 2000BCE or earlier considering Saraswathi river dried by 2200- 1900BCE.

Tamil has around 35% Sanskrit Words and half that from Prakrit and Pali which are branches of Sanskrit, which is acknoledged by Internationally Regarded and Reputed Scholars who research on Linguistics.
Devapriya.

[bis_mala]

You should have been given an academy award for repeating opinions which were rejected all over the shop!!

Keep it up Devapriya!!

Sanskrit is dated to 4c ACE. Nothing came from Sanskrit.
Sanskrit was made up from elements of many languages. Invented for prayers. I am not saying that the language is not good. You may do your prayers in Sanskrit if you like.

[mms]

Dear Bismala,

You attack unnecessarily, Can you quote or link which University tells your lies.

What then is your dating for Rig Veda and Tholkappiyam and please link with Acceptable Authorities.

[bis_mala]

You attack unnecessarily

It is an ongoing dialogue between some old hubbers in this forum. You have not read all the posts obviously. Please do not come in between at the tal end and jump to your own conclusions as to whether any reply is an attack or not and whether it is necessary or not. Mine is a necessary comment.

As to the linguistic query you raised, please read all the old posts in this thread and all connected threads. I do not intend to repeat evidence so far brought up and explained..

Thank you.

[bis_mala]

The trick of accusing a poster or writer in any forum of lying and getting her to spring into action to produce more references and links for you... it is a way of getting someone to be your workhorse!! One may want more references or data for some specific purpose or because of some general interest in the subject under discussion. For all I know, this person may be herself doing a thesis or writing a book. Then accusing someone who has been writing on the topic of telling lies is a good trick. You can expect this person to go on her bended knees and beg to be cleared of the accusation of lying... by producing materials, which you can use in your own book or thesis....
I have already come across two books in which some of the materials discussed in forums have been made use of. I have also been informed that programmes in broadcasting stations have made use of such materials. We are aware of what is going on.......!!

If you think what we are saying is not correct, YOU PRODUCE YOUR REFERENCES AND PUBLISH YOUR RESEARCH FOR US TO EXAMINE.
iF YOU HAVE NONE TO PRODUCE, then you are not entitled to get your materials from us by levelling an accusation against us.

[kannannn]

I have already come across two books in which some of the materials discussed in forums have been made use of. I have also been informed that programmes in broadcasting stations have made use of such materials. We are aware of what is going on.......!!
[b]

:shock: Mala, that's news to me. If that has indeed happened, it is severe academic plagiarism (if they haven't acknowledged the source). Can you name the books here?

[bis_mala]

Lawyers have advised me not to give the names of these books until they come to a conclusion Kannan.

[1&amp;only]

I can give you a bunch of book names. The one I am currently working through is called "Plagiarism - The Principles of Vedic Philosophy"

Mala,

I should send you a soft copy of this great book and you can comment and quote from there.

[bis_mala]

Please do. Thanks in advance.

[shoyonika]

Do not talk gibberish and converge your route through atrocity.
Samskrith was not made up like dravidian languages, it is the language of the gods(dEvaBASA) and has no specific period of existence as against tamil which is not more than 3000 years old and that is not just my view but view of all the learned ones.
And as far as praying is concerned, Samskrith is still using the same gods right from its existence unlike tamil which changed the name of its gods(ofcourse after Samskrith names) from whatever to whatever. Lastly even Kannada has more antiquity in this regard as Maathus existed before thevarams and prabandhams(one more point here- prabandham itself is a Samskrith word as against knowledge of some peanut brains).

[thenRalkAththu]

Samskrith was not made up like dravidian languages, it is the language of the gods(dEvaBASA)

And where are these gods from? Were the gods bored that much that the invented the dEvapAsai? I only wonder why they did not invented the telephone!

[bis_mala]

[tscii:23aa9688a1]Scholars have identified River Saraswati, adverted to in the Rig Veda, with Afghanistan’s Helmand river but deny that it refers to Ghaggar river.. The Rig Veda, therefore was not India-made but Afghanistan-product dated after 1700 BC. The Vedic people settled in south Afghanistan between Helmand and Arghandab composed the Rigvedic hymns. They were occult practitioners who went round composing and reciting the hymns, the remnants of which now form the Rig Veda.as they were called after they were compiled and reduced to writing nearly 2000 years later at the dawn of the Christian era. Then some individual according to her religious persuasion think of the hymns as divine. But this is a matter of individual’s belief.

Since Afghanis have now become Muslims, one need not fear any claims for the proprietorship of the Rig Veda presently. Hence now by default, anyone in South Asia can claim it.

The Vedic peoples came into contact with the later Harappans in 1300 BC (according to some scholars) in the subcontinent (now Pakistan. As the Harappan people spoke Dravidian, the Vedics absorbed many Dravidian elements into their hymns and this was how the 800 to 1000 Tamil/Dravidian words found their way into the hymns which at the time were not in writing. The Aryan language then did not have any writing system. . This early Aryan language was not Sanskrit; we can call it Rigkrit. Sanskrit derived partly from the Aryan dialect that came in and mostly from Dravidian and Munda language elements!!
[/tscii:23aa9688a1]

[bis_mala]

Do not talk gibberish and converge your route through atrocity.
No meaning.


Samskrith was not made up like dravidian languages,

It is wholly indebted to Dravidian for its lexical base and sound system.


it is the language of the gods(dEvaBASA)

It was first called "Deyubadai" Paadu = sing. Paadai - that which is sung or hymns. Deyu(m) -- waning, reducing. It lost its vigor in the Afghan area and was on the decline. So the hymns were "Declicing hymns". Later this corrupted to become Devupashai or devabashai. Now wrongly analysed and misunderstood as devabasha!!


and has no specific period of existence

Invented languages do not have any specific existence let alone period of existence.


just my view but view of all the learned ones.

Learned ones including Solomon = shoyonika!!


And as far as praying is concerned, Samskrith is still using the same gods right from its existence unlike tamil which changed the name of its gods(ofcourse after Samskrith names) from whatever to whatever.

Hehehe!! Now you are feeling the effect of the jab.


Lastly even Kannada has more antiquity in this regard as Maathus existed before thevarams and prabandhams(one more point here- prabandham itself is a Samskrith word as against knowledge of some peanut brains).

Some pbb do not understand that Samskrith is not a language at all. It is a prayer compo. It is now like a shelf company which ended up there despite all the investiments in the past. My tears for it.........

I LOVE SANSKRIT BECAUSE ABOUT 2/3 OF IT IS DRAVIDIAN/MUNDA though about 1/3 is old old Iranian for which I have no feelings.

Hi Devapriya = Solomon = Pavitra = Uppuma = PaulThomas etc etc!! Happy weekend to you and your sams and krith!!

[shoyonika]

:lol: no need of a joke book

And where are these gods from? Were the gods bored that much that the invented the dEvapAsai? I only wonder why they did not invented the telephone!

firstly it is dEvaBASA not pAsai :lol:
secondly invention of telephone is not new to gods ofcourse it is to you, as you can find much more sophisticated manner of speech that existed during vedic times especially mentioned in atharvaNavEda.
So give your brains some exercise and refer to books before you give an article.
Lastly the Gods are never bored because they have created you for a good laughter :lol:

[shoyonika]

[tscii:d465f7d9b8]
Scholars have identified River Saraswati, adverted to in the Rig Veda, with Afghanistan’s Helmand river but deny that it refers to Ghaggar river.. The Rig Veda, therefore was not India-made but Afghanistan-product dated after 1700 BC.

:lol:
dont some people ever use brains?
Afghan was known as gandhara from vedic times and was as much a part of India then as tamilnad is now, So, :lol: tough luck to prove vEdAs afghani
anyways :lol: :lol: :lol: i cant control laughter when such silly things happen.
lots and lots of luck next time! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: [/tscii:d465f7d9b8]

[davie]

I think even i some one needs to claim Sanskrit or Tamil as the oldest, we need written evidence or carbon dating kind of evidences, right?

In 3200 BC, there were many, many languages spoken besides Sumerian and Egyptian, but they weren't fortunate enough to have a writing system.

[shoyonika]

It is wholly indebted to Dravidian for its lexical base and sound system.



joke of the year! :lol:
does it make any sense when you say you have made a donation to someone, when you yourself have taken a loan from that same person, that cannot be paid off till eternity?
In Samskrith, if you want to write something for ex say Gandhiji, you can write it, unlike in some lingos, where Gandhiji becomes Kanthiji :lol:
and you say those languages have given Samskrith a lexical base? :lol:



It was first called "Deyubadai" Paadu = sing. Paadai - that which is sung or hymns. Deyu(m) -- waning, reducing. It lost its vigor in the Afghan area and was on the decline. So the hymns were "Declicing hymns". Later this corrupted to become Devupashai or devabashai. Now wrongly analysed and misunderstood as devabasha!!



Samskrith works still exist and are in continuously unbroken tradition from tens of thousands of years, so deyubadai or whatever is suitable only for waning languages like..................samjha karo yaar :lol:




Invented languages do not have any specific existence let alone period of existence.

does this statement hold good for dravidian languages too( as they are branches of Samskrith)? :lol: :lol: :lol:


Learned ones including Solomon = shoyonika!!

no :)
learned ones like bisssssssssssssssmala and thenral katthu :lol: :lol:


Some pbb do not understand that Samskrith is not a language at all. It is a prayer compo. It is now like a shelf company which ended up there despite all the investiments in the past. My tears for it.........


yes thats true Samskrith wipes everyone`s tears, be it a scholar or ........... anyone for that matter :lol: :lol:

we too have no feeling for this :arrow:
I LOVE SANSKRIT BECAUSE ABOUT 2/3 OF IT IS DRAVIDIAN/MUNDA though about 1/3 is old old Iranian for which I have no feelings.
:lol: :lol: :lol:

[bis_mala]

dont some people ever use brains?
Afghan was known as gandhara from vedic times and was as much a part of India then as tamilnad is now, So, tough luck to prove vEdAs afghani
anyways i cant control laughter when such silly things happen.
lots and lots of luck next time!

You are using your brains very much Was there any India then? Was it one country then? Why do you use the word India?
When historians say Afghan, they mean the place presently known as Afghanistan. It is of little relevance to the argument whether it was then known as Ghandara or not.
This is the second time you have commented about brains. No one with any brains will call any language a devabasha!!

[bis_mala]

:: deleted:

[bis_mala]

does this statement hold good for dravidian languages too( as they are branches of Samskrith)?

Dravidian languages are branches of the fake and invented language Sanskrit?, stateless and never in home speech? Only first class prize idiots will say so!! You are completely devoid of any knowledge of linguistics. bodoh!

You are trying to get away by using emoticons?

[davie]

well i can see some one is unstable here. From where did afganese get involved in these language discussion. I think languages are more local. Example, India has one language for each state :lol: . Also may be people during that time were so conservative (ego) not to learn or use words from other languages, thereby distinguishing one language from the other.

so, probably every language can evolve very much independently with few or no aspects in common. Lets dont argue about something which we are not so clear about.
One more thing, guys keep your postings short as possible. I cannot read lengthy postings due to being so lazy

[bis_mala]

[tscii:7b276d8b95]Afghanistan is featured well in the history of India from ancient times. One historian wrote that Indra, the general of the Aryans had his force in one of the mountains there. Another said that the Vedas were composed there as well. Afghan Aryans were the purer Aryans according to some.

Another version is that the Vedas were composed in Punjab and recomposed in the Gangetic area.after there was a split between the Aryan groups.

My own version is different. All these knowledge and learning were derived from the Tamils of the Kumari Kandam. Vetham is a Tamil word. Upanishad is also a Tamil word – that is these words were from Tamil roots. I reserve this for the moment.
[/tscii:7b276d8b95]

[shoyonika]

Was there any India then? Was it one country then? Why do you use the word India?

India was previously known as BAratha

[shoyonika]

When historians say Afghan, they mean the place presently known as Afghanistan. It is of little relevance to the argument whether it was then known as Ghandara or not.
Well, Gandhara is the main thing and is ofcourse of great importance, unless you do not want to rectify yourself. Whenever speaking about something, knowledge in detail, of its history is of utmost importance.

[shoyonika]

No one with any brains will call any language a devabasha!!

Well well, its about brains and not brainless.
It is not a single person who identifies Samskrith a dEvaBASA until you know the other name of Samskrith, that is gIrvANI or gIrvANa BASA which itself means `language of the gods`

[shoyonika]

[tscii]
The Ja and Sha etc we use in Tamil were letters invented or formed for the Tamil language by ourselves. Sanskrit is not the only language with such letters. The Tamils had trade and other relationship with many other countries in the past, notably Arabs, Romans etc. These letters are not a gift from Sanskrit. .
No connection to my quotation.


They are made by making slight changes in our own letters: e.g. the Tamil "i" is changed slightly to make the Tamil "ja". The Tamil "ha" is made by combining Tamil "u" and "Ra". Only stupids who had not studied the Tamil letters closely will say that they were borrowed from scriptless Sans
See who teaches me tamil :lol: . It is better for people to keep their very little knowledge amongst themselves. By the way, `ha` is not made by the combination of u and ra, moreover it is not ra, it sounds tra when spoken correctly( as in maTTRum or munneTTRa).


They are not forged from Devanaagari, which at any rate was also made in Jaffna, by the "thiivu naagar"s. Idiots should keep out of academic and linguistic discussion.
Yes, very true, Idiots should not try their hands at linguistics.
dEvanAgari means `of dEvanagar` that is, any guesses?
place in history which was for some instance in Indian history, its capital and for gods sake no more jokes owing its origins to jaffna :lol:


Sanskrit itself had used Aramaic script first and learnt of the letters from Aramaic. Those with some brains for history will know this kayu!!
Armaic and Samskrith, good try, but very bad `match-the-following`.


Dravidian languages are branches of the fake and invented language Sanskrit?, stateless and never in home speech? Only first class prize idiots will say so!! You are completely devoid of any knowledge of linguistics. bodoh!

You are trying to get away by using emoticons?

No no no. I never said that, so, who becomes the idiot? :lol:
You`ve mistaken me. They are not mere branches but derivatives of Samskrith. Had I been devoid of linguistic knowledge, then you and I would have become a great pair.


Afghanistan is featured well in the history of India from ancient times. One historian wrote that Indra, the general of the Aryans had his force in one of the mountains there. Another said that the Vedas were composed there as well. Afghan Aryans were the purer Aryans according to some.
Using of names of Gods as general of aryans is an offence and it is against many people`s emotions.


Another version is that the Vedas were composed in Punjab and recomposed in the Gangetic area.after there was a split between the Aryan groups.
vEdAs are compositions of Gods and not creations of humans like you and I.


Vetham is a Tamil word. Upanishad is also a Tamil word – that is these words were from Tamil roots.
vEda is not any dravidian word, it is derived from the root `vid`, meaning `knowledge` in Samskrith .And `upaniSad` is also a Samskrith word meaning ,taught in a sitting posture

[shoyonika]

In your username, the first three letters sho means show. The next four letters refer to female genitalia. Then -ka means kaattu = show again. Thus you intend to insult females. You should be prosecuted for insulting the modesty of a woman.
How dare you?
you have no rights to speak ill of my name. Its my name and not like you that i have to use username. Im not scared to use my true name.
You cannot type all this nuisance regarding anyone`s name as this is against the rules of this forum.
firstly, my name is Shoyonika Bhattacharya, a bengali name, much far from your understanding. It means Shoyona means `Lord Vishnu, the sarpa Shoyona and his wife is Shoyonika.
So it is a meaningful name my parents have kept and I never condemned you over your name?
did I ever say that `mala` in Samskrith means faeces or stools?
lastly you born from a woman , how can you condemn a woman?


You are using the Indian national flag as your avatar image. There are rules in your country regarding the use of this. You may have violated these rules. This also should be looked into. Becareful!! Do not write brainlesslessly and get yourself tied up in knots. It is not worth. Then you won't be laughing anymore.
though im away from her, India is my motherland and I see no meaning in not using my motherlands`flag as my avathar.

[shoyonika]

In your username, the first three letters sho means show. The next four letters refer to female genitalia. Then -ka means kaattu = show again. Thus you intend to insult females. You should be prosecuted for insulting the modesty of a woman.
How dare you?
you have no rights to speak ill of my name. Its my name and not like you that i have to use username. Im not scared to use my true name.
You cannot type all this nuisance regarding anyone`s name as this is against the rules of this forum.
firstly, my name is Shoyonika Bhattacharya, a bengali name, much far from your understanding. It means Shoyona means `Lord Vishnu, the sarpa Shoyona and his wife is Shoyonika.
So it is a meaningful name my parents have kept and I never condemned you over your name?
did I ever say that `mala` in Samskrith means faeces or stools?
lastly you born from a woman , how can you condemn a woman?


You are using the Indian national flag as your avatar image. There are rules in your country regarding the use of this. You may have violated these rules. This also should be looked into. Becareful!! Do not write brainlesslessly and get yourself tied up in knots. It is not worth. Then you won't be laughing anymore.
though im away from her, India is my motherland and I see no meaning in not using my motherlands `flag as my avathar.
you take your own advice and act carefully, if not brainlessly.
I laugh always, and I dont care if you feel insecure about it.

[bis_mala]

To all hub friends:


Tamil-Culture was the most ancient.... as well as the PRIME-CULTURE OF MANKIND.... ever adopted all over the world...

... and the TAMIL LANGUAGE IS THE FIRST LANGUAGE OF MANKIND... ever spoken in comparison to multiplicity of savage-culture and their Audio-symbolic means of communications, UNWORTHY TO BE NAMED AS ANY LANGUAGE...

.. But they were the origins for several Great Classical-Languages like Latin, Greek, Hebrew etc.

By stating so.... neither those foreign Historians nor the Tamilians mean to under-rate other Cultures or Languages of the Global arena... ever in the History of Mankind...

This view by thaaththaa is the correct view.

[bis_mala]

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[bis_mala]

Amazing similarity in words have been found with Tamil and the Australian aboriginal languages. These relate to animals and parts of the body.
As philologist PavaaNar said, these relationships of other languages may be traced back to many thousands of years. There has been no recent contact between the Tamils and the others such as the Australian aborigines. Hence the remoteness of the linguistic connections.

Sanskrit relationship with Tamil was most recent in the scheme of things and came mainly through religion. Sanskrit-claimed terms such as vEtham and upnishad can be better interpreted through Tamil as we have already done sometime back.
Some Sanskrit etymological explanations are laughable for example Upanishad is said to mean receiving instruction in the sitting position!! Then does veda mean receiving it in the standing position? Hence the Sans pundits' explanation does not click. Veda came from Tamil vEithal (composing or hiding as FSG explained; upnishad from uvaneyavu which means sub-text).

The studies vis-a-vis the aboriginal languages are not due for publication as yet. This pleasure of publishing them should be left to the researchers who are toiling over them and therefore reserved.

[indian224080]

In your username, the first three letters sho means show. The next four letters refer to female genitalia. Then -ka means kaattu = show again. Thus you intend to insult females. You should be prosecuted for insulting the modesty of a woman.
How dare you?
you have no rights to speak ill of my name. Its my name and not like you that i have to use username. Im not scared to use my true name.
You cannot type all this nuisance regarding anyone`s name as this is against the rules of this forum.
firstly, my name is Shoyonika Bhattacharya, a bengali name, much far from your understanding. It means Shoyona means `Lord Vishnu, the sarpa Shoyona and his wife is Shoyonika.
So it is a meaningful name my parents have kept and I never condemned you over your name?
did I ever say that `mala` in Samskrith means faeces or stools?
lastly you born from a woman , how can you condemn a woman?


You are using the Indian national flag as your avatar image. There are rules in your country regarding the use of this. You may have violated these rules. This also should be looked into. Becareful!! Do not write brainlesslessly and get yourself tied up in knots. It is not worth. Then you won't be laughing anymore.
though im away from her, India is my motherland and I see no meaning in not using my motherlands`flag as my avathar.

Shoyonika,
This is the crux of their argument. Baseless argument which is seated in their brains as professed by their Politicians....
They will demean you,your name and the state from which u come from and then say that Their language is the goddess from which all languages came. Carry on with ur good work.
"Laton kein Booth Baathon se nahi mantein"
Best wishes from my side
regards
Indian224080

[srivatsanvr]

I guess the moderaotor is not seeing this thread anymore! What is going on here! Directly against the rules

Dear Shayanika(Shoyonika-the Bengali accemt of Shayanika)! Please come out of htese kind of thread! Wise people will not participate in such foolish Tharkas!

Have you ever seen Samskrith scholars, fighting for the supremacy of Samskritham. The have never, for they know, it is useless sepnding valuable time in proving 1+1 = 2.

Instead, if you go deep in to Samskritham and develop you knowldege, it will help you in every way!

[mahadevan]

Hi Srivatsanvr awesome words buddy


Please come out of htese kind of thread! Wise people will not participate in such foolish Tharkas!
And you participate so what does that mean ?


Have you ever seen Samskrith scholars, fighting for the supremacy of Samskritham
Thanks for declaring that those sanskrit fans that participate here by claiming sanskrit supremacy are not scholars.


Instead, if you go deep in to Samskritham and develop you knowldege, it will help you in every way!
Absolutely true drink soma and dancing aroung a bon fire is for more happier thing to do !

[indian224080]

How about crow poaching with lungis mahadevan?

[stranger]

I guess the moderaotor is not seeing this thread anymore! What is going on here! Directly against the rules

Dear Shayanika(Shoyonika-the Bengali accemt of Shayanika)! Please come out of htese kind of thread! Wise people will not participate in such foolish Tharkas!

Have you ever seen Samskrith scholars, fighting for the supremacy of Samskritham. The have never, for they know, it is useless sepnding valuable time in proving 1+1 = 2.

Instead, if you go deep in to Samskritham and develop you knowldege, it will help you in every way then !

:rotfl:

What do you think you are doing here?! :lol:

These kinds of tricks wont work anymore! :lol:

[shoyonika]

Upanishad means the inner or mystic teaching. The term Upanishad is derived from upa (near), ni (down) and s(h)ad (to sit), i.e., sitting down near. Groups of pupils sit near the teacher to learn from him the secret doctrine. In the quietude of the forest hermitages the Upanishad thinkers pondered on the problems of deepest concerns and communicated their knowledge to fit pupils near them. Samkara derives the word Upanishad as a substitute from the root sad, 'to loosen.,' 'to reach' or 'to destroy' with Upa and ni as prefixes and kvip as termination. If this determination is accepted, upanishad means brahma-knowledge by which ignorance is loosened or destroyed. The treatises that deal with brahma-knowledge are called the Upanishads and so pass for the Vedanta. The different derivations together make out that the Upanishads give us both spiritual vision and philosophical argument. There is a core of certainty which is essentially incommunicable except by a way of life. It is by a strictly personal effort that one can reach the truth.
The Upanishads more clearly set forth the prime Vedic doctrines like Self-realization, yoga and meditation, karma and reincarnation, which were hidden or kept veiled under the symbols of the older mystery religion. The older Upanishads are usually affixed to a particularly Veda, through a Brahmana or Aranyaka. The more recent ones are not. The Upanishads became prevalent some centuries before the time of Krishna and Buddha.

The main figure in the Upanishads, though not present in many of them, is the sage Yajnavalkya. Most of the great teachings of later Hindu and Buddhist philosophy derive from him. He taught the great doctrine of "neti-neti", the view that truth can be found only through the negation of all thoughts about it. Other important Upanishadic sages are Uddalaka Aruni, Shwetaketu, Shandilya, Aitareya, Pippalada, Sanat Kumara. Many earlier Vedic teachers like Manu, Brihaspati, Ayasya and Narada are also found in the Upanishads.

In the Upanishads the spiritual meanings of the Vedic texts are brought out and emphasized in their own right.

This is all a waste until you wont recognize what is right and what is wrong, because some people laugh without any meaning and such people who laugh without any reason to, are nothing but mads and that too not ordinary but very cunningly mad because they just turn the meaning of a word into a meaningless word according to their stunted brains.

[shoyonika]

Thank you for the kindness and support. You are right, it is senseless to explain truth as it is very difficult to understand especially to peanut brains. Moreover scholars never needed to uphold the supremacy of Samskrith as it was never low at all. Thanks for the support, it is always welcome.
Samskrith is suitable for Scholarly people and many tamilians also were for Samskrith, but wonder why these people are acting in such a weird fashion?

[stranger]

Thank you for the kindness and support. You are right, it is senseless to explain truth as it is very difficult to understand especially to peanut brains.

Yeah, Is that why vacuum head like you come and bs something SO IRRELEVANT to the thread which was intended for discussing, The elderliness of thamizh!????

[indian224080]

Thank you for the kindness and support. You are right, it is senseless to explain truth as it is very difficult to understand especially to peanut brains.

Yeah, Is that why vacuum head like you come and bs something SO IRRELEVANT to the thread which was intended for discussing, The elderliness of thamizh!????

Why has so called elderliness of thamizh is to be proved by bashing another classical language? You mean to say u have no other ways to prove the elderliness of a language? Or may be is it this way that Vaccuum heads like you know to prove?

[stranger]

You can go on start a thread for the classical language and BS, I would say?! :twisted:

You are driving in the left side in America, tiny-brain! :twisted:

Should I have to spell out everything to you????? :twisted:

[indian224080]

You can go on start a thread for the classical language and BS, I would say?! :twisted:

You are driving in the left side in America, tiny-brain! :twisted:

Should I have to spell out everything to you????? :twisted:

There you go!!!!

[mahadevan]

Sanskrit is a classical language ? that is news to me. The qualification for a classical language is clearly written, cant you guys understant that ?


the prime Vedic doctrines like Self-realization, yoga and meditation, karma and reincarnation, which were hidden or kept veiled under the symbols of the older mystery religion
:o :o :o :o :o

Looks like you no nothing about vedas, none of what you said is mentioned in the vedas

[mahadevan]

Hi shoyonika, your arguments sounds sensible so far, so can I ask you what is present in vedas that is worhty of praise ?
None in this forum could provide any sensible (forget philosophical) extract from any of the four vedas. If you are confident, rather than just saying it is great, why dont you start a thread titled "The great phiosophies/practices in vedas" and elucidate the content of the vedas. All I hear is it is great, it is great... never any justification for that claim.

[shoyonika]

Anyways you wont understand Vedas as you are not ready to do so. You will however believe in Vedas once you come into contact with them. If you want to condemn something, go through it in depth and then you just think twice whether it is condemnable or not.
Lastly Vedas do not need anyone`s recognitionto be proven oldest literature and so does Samskrith.

[shoyonika]

I am very glad that you are atleast interested in Vedas, unlike some who never leave a point to condemn them. I too am very eager to share my knowledge of vedas to you but I am told vedas are prohibited for women, so, instead I`ll send you some books on vedas, but you should promise me you will enlighten everyone by sharing them. I`ll send you the books after I finish typing the format. Till then if you by chance get any books on vedas by Skr and chatterjee, do make it a point to read them. bye

[shoyonika]

Yeah, Is that why vacuum head like you come and bs something SO IRRELEVANT to the thread which was intended for discussing, The elderliness of thamizh!????
if i am vacuum head could i have written all this?
just criticising wont do any good in proving you head is full.
let out what you think about the thread or just leave it for the vacuum heads like us you mr.foolhead

[stranger]

Just LEAVE.

Dont come back HERE ever again! :twisted:

Good luck to you! :D

[indian224080]

I am very glad that you are atleast interested in Vedas, unlike some who never leave a point to condemn them. I too am very eager to share my knowledge of vedas to you but I am told vedas are prohibited for women, so, instead I`ll send you some books on vedas, but you should promise me you will enlighten everyone by sharing them. I`ll send you the books after I finish typing the format. Till then if you by chance get any books on vedas by Skr and chatterjee, do make it a point to read them. bye

Oh Shoyonika not to disrespect you, Mr Mahadevan is a Dravid wolf in a Tamil Sheep clothing. So proceed with care!

[indian224080]

Just LEAVE.

Dont come back HERE ever again! :twisted:

Good luck to you! :D
Does you advice/Order have any credence.
Quit making posts like this.!

[Ronnie The Dutch]

Just LEAVE.

Dont come back HERE ever again! :twisted:

Good luck to you! :D
Does you advice/Order have any credence.
Quit making posts like this.!

Does your advice/Order have any credence.
Quit making posts like this.! - copy-&-pasted from above post

[stranger]

Just LEAVE.

Dont come back HERE ever again! :twisted:

Good luck to you! :D
Does you advice/Order have any credence.
Quit making posts like this.!

Yeah?! I would if you LEAVE from here.

Because I know how much love thamizh! :D

What do you and the other one care about "elderliness of thamizh"??? :lol:

[Ronnie The Dutch]

if i am vacuum head could i have written all this?

Because you wrote all these you are called vacum head. And I second it!
Be happy about it because it is better than deadhead isn't it?

[mahadevan]

shoyonika wrote
"but I am told vedas are prohibited for women"

what do you mean by that ?
have you read vedas ?

[Ronnie The Dutch]

How about crow poaching with lungis mahadevan? Hey, where is that cow you stole from my meadow yesterday? I want to have it back unharmed and I hope you found your lost woman in the meantime. Next time please put a leash on your women and cows instead of longing for lungis.

[shoyonika]

Women are prohibited of vedic studies, and so I could not make my research in them, nevertheless, I have read about it in Skr and chatterjee`s books.

[stranger]

Man!

That is terrible!

Which animal wrote such a filthy rule?!

[shoyonika]

Man!

That is terrible!

Which animal wrote such a filthy rule?!
An animal whose language is more neat and clean than you.

[Ronnie The Dutch]

... truth can be found only through the negation of all thoughts about it. ...

God can be found only through the negation of all thoughts about it!

[stranger]

An animal whose language is more neat and clean than you.

I thought you were NOT allowed to see! :roll:

How could you appreciate it blindly?! :lol:

[Ronnie The Dutch]

Man!

That is terrible!

Which animal wrote such a filthy rule?! And for whom? I have a srtong suspission: Did these animals came from the Universe if the AIT is wrong? Well, the usage of AIT is correct though! Alien Invasion Theory. :lol:

[indian224080]

An animal whose language is more neat and clean than you.

I thought you were NOT allowed to see! :roll:

How could you appreciate it blindly?! :lol:

Just how KumariKandam and 3000000000000000000000000000 yrs of Tamils elegance is appreciated by some people......here...
By the way is 3000000000000000000000000000 enuf or u want some more Zeros at the end?

[Ronnie The Dutch]

Women are prohibited of vedic studies, and so I could not make my research in them, nevertheless, I have read about it in Skr and chatterjee`s books.

So the empty vessel is making the greatest sound?

[indian224080]

Man!

That is terrible!

Which animal wrote such a filthy rule?! And for whom? I have a srtong suspission: Did these animals came from the Universe if the AIT is wrong? Well, the usage of AIT is correct though! Alien Invasion Theory. :lol:

Naaaah they came from KumariKandam which is 3000000000000000000000000000 yrs old and below the sea level.
and some people were writing literature below sea level as dinasours roamed the land speaking tamil.

[indian224080]

Women are prohibited of vedic studies, and so I could not make my research in them, nevertheless, I have read about it in Skr and chatterjee`s books.

So the empty vessel is making the greatest sound?
In any case its better than the vessel filled with faeces.

[stranger]

Man! You are never gone! Worse than Bob! :banghead:

[Ronnie The Dutch]

Man!

That is terrible!

Which animal wrote such a filthy rule?! And for whom? I have a srtong suspission: Did these animals came from the Universe if the AIT is wrong? Well, the usage of AIT is correct though! Alien Invasion Theory. :lol:

Naaaah they came from KumariKandam which is 3000000000000000000000000000 yrs old and below the sea level.
and some people were writing literature below sea level as dinasours roamed the land speaking tamil.
And how do you explain your mad existence? Dinosaurs are not mentioned in hindu literature. Who created Dinosaurs?

So you admit that Dinosaurs spoke Tamil? A great Language isn't it?

Indian, did you know that The Netherlands is famous for being below sea level! It seems you know only two digits! The one is a three and the other it is you!

[indian224080]

So were people of netherlands speaking tamil too?

[shoyonika]

And how do you explain your mad existence? Dinosaurs are not mentioned in hindu literature. Who created Dinosaurs?
Through insane persons like you. check your hindu literature, what are sarpas and nagas? have you ever heard of them? check before you land in more trouble.

[shoyonika]

So were people of netherlands speaking tamil too? yes Indian I think you are right, as these people might have not learnt the importance of that language until the nederland people did start experimenting with it. Do you know one thing? the most english-words using language after english is Tamil. just check out their movies and songs, you will find some tamils words in between if you are lucky.

[indian224080]

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:
Well Said...But someone from the other end would now say English is derived from Tamil.

[shoyonika]

:lol: :lol: :lol:
youve got the gist of this thread very perfectly. They will, if not now, some days ahead, but will say that even cow`s mows and cat`s meows have tamil roots.

[Ronnie The Dutch]

So were people of netherlands speaking tamil too?

Unlike you they still do. For ex. my Mom, my Dad and also me! If you don't believe me then prove me wrong!

For your info: The People of The Netherlands are called Dutch!

[indian224080]

So were people of netherlands speaking tamil too?

Unlike you they still do. For ex. my Mom, my Dad and also me! If you don't believe me then prove me wrong!

For your info: The People of The Netherlands are called Dutch!
Is Dutch derived from Mother tamil?!?

tak->duk->dut->duchch->dutch.
Voilaaa!!!!!

tak tak tak
dak dak dak
dut dut dut
duchch duchch duchch
dutch dutch dutch...
wow!!!!!!

[Ronnie The Dutch]

And how do you explain your mad existence? Dinosaurs are not mentioned in hindu literature. Who created Dinosaurs?
Through insane persons like you. check your hindu literature, what are sarpas and nagas? have you ever heard of them? check before you land in more trouble.My hindu literature is free of lies and therefore the pages are virgin and blank, there is not even a single fullstop.

How did these sarpas and nagas look alike? What did they eat, how did they mate. And the most important question is what did they speak? I am not at all asking how or what did they write because I know that they were not able to read and write devanagari!

Is there any relationship between Nagas and Nagari? :lol:

[Ronnie The Dutch]

So were people of netherlands speaking tamil too?

Unlike you they still do. For ex. my Mom, my Dad and also me! If you don't believe me then prove me wrong!

For your info: The People of The Netherlands are called Dutch!
Is Dutch derived from Mother tamil?!?

tak->duk->dut->duchch->dutch.
Voilaaa!!!!!

tak tak tak
dak dak dak
dut dut dut
duchch duchch duchch
dutch dutch dutch...
wow!!!!!!

Dutch comes from thachchan - carpenter!. Anyway a good attempt yours but I have question though: Was your method to analyze Dutch written in the Vedas?

Hey hindian XXX,
I remember you saying that you are a Tamil. Can you write Balarama or Deva in Tamil?

[Ronnie The Dutch]

Do you know one thing? Too bad this question! One thing is still one thing too much for him/her/it.


the most english-words using language after english is Tamil. just check out their movies and songs, you will find some tamils words in between if you are lucky. Do you really thing that these movies are made for Tamils? Obviously not. These movies/songs are made for Non-Tamils. But the problem is that all these non Tamils think that they know English. :lol:

[indian224080]

Dutch comes from thachchan

Ada paavame
Enakku Venum :banghead:

So is Amitabh Bachchan also derived from Amitabh Thachchan???
U mean Amitabh the Carpenter?

Height of Insanity.

[indian224080]

And the BTW how u denote me as Hindian clearly depicts that u r yet another inferiority complexed Tamil!!!!!

[Ronnie The Dutch]

:lol: :lol: :lol:
youve got the gist of this thread very perfectly. They will, if not now, some days ahead, but will say that even cow`s mows and cat`s meows have tamil roots.

We don't have to lie about the cow at all! It is very well written in the Vedas. The Vedas explain how to drive a cattle through the prairie and what to do with a hot iron nail.

Just a comment:
Iron was introduced to mankind through the vedas some eons ago. At the time of copper and bronze when the iron was absolutely unknown the vedas existed and the hot iron nail was defined and described

[Ronnie The Dutch]

Dutch comes from thachchan

Ada paavame
Enakku Venum :banghead:

Wrong Tamil Hindian XXX!
It has to be: ada paavamee or ada pAvamE
and enakku veenum or vEnum (spoken tamil)

Now you see what an idiot you are!


So is Amitabh Bachchan also derived from Amitabh Thachchan???
U mean Amitabh the Carpenter? Who is this Kadalai Kachchaan anyway?

Height of Insanity.Too much Vedas I assume! Vedas creates only pudding! I do agree with you about your high state of insanity! Yes! :lol:

[Ronnie The Dutch]

And the BTW how u denote me as Hindian clearly depicts that u r yet another inferiority complexed Tamil!!!!!
As long as I am not a superiority complexed hindian I don't care!

[indian224080]

And the BTW how u denote me as Hindian clearly depicts that u r yet another inferiority complexed Tamil!!!!!
As long as I am not a superiority complexed hindian I don't care!
Same old Dravid Crap!

[mahadevan]

Guys looks like there is too much of vedic pollution in this thread, hey vedics please look some where else for your stupid vedic propoganda. We like to have have an academic discussion here. Sanskrit is just one of the zillions of offsprings of tamil, let us not waste our time on just one, that too an artificial language fit only for liturgy, whose litreature just talks of dogmatism and nothing else, the only exception being the utilitarian concepts of soma and beef recipe.

[indian224080]

Yeah yeah yeah and so on and so forth.
The crow poachers and lungi wearers got a language from stones,water and sand and then claimed that as tamil.
BTW is crow curry mentioned in any tamil literature?
What abt Chennai sanga tamizh. Is that also mentioned as a classical language somewhere?
Seems like tamil mated with Zillions of languages to giving Zillion offsprings.

[shoyonika]

Do you really thing that these movies are made for Tamils? Obviously not. These movies/songs are made for Non-Tamils. But the problem is that all these non Tamils think that they know English.
che che che arent there any watchers of tamil, that you people are making movies and songs for others? or has your balloon of so-called patriotism bursted?

[shoyonika]

We don't have to lie about the cow at all! It is very well written in the Vedas. The Vedas explain how to drive a cattle through the prairie and what to do with a hot iron nail.

Just a comment:
Iron was introduced to mankind through the vedas some eons ago. At the time of copper and bronze when the iron was absolutely unknown the vedas existed and the hot iron nail was defined and described
you and vedas? please stop blasting your comments. This is turning into another useless thread after your coming, as there is nothing new to learn as you are posting your idiotic good-for-nothing posts.

[shoyonika]

Guys looks like there is too much of vedic pollution in this thread, hey vedics please look some where else for your stupid vedic propoganda. We like to have have an academic discussion here. Sanskrit is just one of the zillions of offsprings of tamil, let us not waste our time on just one, that too an artificial language fit only for liturgy, whose litreature just talks of dogmatism and nothing else, the only exception being the utilitarian concepts of soma and beef recipe. This is the most foolish thing to say about vedas. what do you know about vedas? we know about tolkappiyam, silappadhikaram, manimekhalai and valluvar`s teachings and are ready to quote some. can you do that in for vedas? so better stop condemning things which are beyond the limitatios of people with no folds in their brains.

[Ronnie The Dutch]

Guys looks like there is too much of vedic pollution in this thread, hey vedics please look some where else for your stupid vedic propoganda. We like to have have an academic discussion here. Sanskrit is just one of the zillions of offsprings of tamil, let us not waste our time on just one, that too an artificial language fit only for liturgy, whose litreature just talks of dogmatism and nothing else, the only exception being the utilitarian concepts of soma and beef recipe. This is the most foolish thing to say about vedas. what do you know about vedas? we know about tolkappiyam, silappadhikaram, manimekhalai and valluvar`s teachings and are ready to quote some. can you do that in for vedas? so better stop condemning things which are beyond the limitatios of people with no folds in their brains.

Is there anything worth in the Vedas to quote?
Why don't you first count your folds if there are any?

[shoyonika]

Is there anything worth in the Vedas to quote?
Why don't you first count your folds if there are any? There is a lot in vedas to quote but what is the use? You wont understand as you dont want to. Secondly about folds? see my posts and yours and you will know by yourself who has the most.
oops... sorry. if only you had folds, this would be of use.

[stranger]

youve got the gist of this thread very perfectly. They will, if not now, some days ahead, but will say that even cow`s mows and cat`s meows have tamil roots.

Which thamizh told you this?

Or you are bullshitting with your BIG MOUTH???? :twisted:

[mahadevan]

shoyonika " There is a lot in vedas to quote but what is the use? "
You being a women are forbidden from vedas, you accept that you have not read it. Do you know what people call those that talk about what they themselves do not know... I call them fanatics.
You have written hundreds of line since I asked you to quote what is worthy in vedas, are you still trying to find that worthy stuff in vedas, belive me you would kick the bucket before that.

[mahadevan]

Hi FSG
how is the concept of reincarnation dealt in the Tamil siddha lit, all I know is there is no mention of that in vedas just like yoga and meditation.
Heard that the combination of yogic lit in Gita and Patanjali's yogasutra would not be even one third of Thirumandiram, can you please elaborate on that.

[bis_mala]

:rotfl: :rotfl:
You have written hundreds of line since I asked you to quote what is worthy in vedas, are you still trying to find that worthy stuff in vedas, belive me you would kick the bucket before that.
:rotfl: :rotfl:

[shoyonika]

You being a women are forbidden from vedas, you accept that you have not read it. Do you know what people call those that talk about what they themselves do not know... I call them fanatics.
You have written hundreds of line since I asked you to quote what is worthy in vedas, are you still trying to find that worthy stuff in vedas, belive me you would kick the bucket before that. Ofcourse I never deny myself forbidden from Vedas and so are you too. But did I ever mention myself not listening to Vedic discourses? That proves you are in such a hurry to prove your points that you do least research. Had you done enough research, you would have been fit enough to chew your own cud instead of others chewing it for you and transfering it into your mouth.

[shoyonika]

Which thamizh told you this?

Or you are bullshitting with your BIG MOUTH????
I wont do that. Otherwise even if I bullshit, I know you will eat it all up. :lol:

[shoyonika]

You have written hundreds of line since I asked you to quote what is worthy in vedas Everything in Vedas is worthy, but what worth are you interested in? physical? spiritual? monetary?

[mahadevan]

shoyonika wrote "Everything in Vedas is worthy, but what worth are you interested in? physical? spiritual? monetary?"

Leave the choice to you, whatever you consider as the most worthy in vedas, please quote here. I am very interested in it, just because never seen it before.

[shoyonika]

Ill reply soon and thanks for taking interest in Vedas. Bye. :)

[stranger]

Which thamizh told you this?

Or you are bullshitting with your BIG MOUTH????


I wont do that.

Of course you do. Seems like got "immunized" with lies and so could not realize what is what.

[tscii:44d2135128] ¿øÄ Á¡ðÎìÌ ´Õ ÝÎ! :twisted: [/tscii:44d2135128]

[shoyonika]

[tscii:3aabed43a8]
Of course you do. Seems like got "immunized" with lies and so could not realize what is what.

¿øÄ Á¡ðÎìÌ ´Õ ÝÎ!
Nalla maadukku oru soodu illai. It is necessary only for people of your kind.[/tscii:3aabed43a8]

[F.S.Gandhi vandayar]

Hi FSG
how is the concept of reincarnation dealt in the Tamil siddha lit, all I know is there is no mention of that in vedas just like yoga and meditation.
Heard that the combination of yogic lit in Gita and Patanjali's yogasutra would not be even one third of Thirumandiram, can you please elaborate on that.

Sure ! I may write in detail in relevant thread. Due to my held up, I could not visit forum frequently. In this thread I have some more messages to be delivered.

Sanskrit developed in South India. Many Sanskrit versions are copied form of tamil arts. In fact Upanishads are against of Vedhic Traditions. We may deal in relevant thread.

f.s.gandhi

[shoyonika]

Vedas and Upanishads, though Upanishads are centuries younger than Vedas, preach the same meaning of Vedic Mysticism. Vedas are not taken from any dravidian languages, in fact the old literature in dravidian languages are based on the principles of Vedas, including the legends explained in the dravidian literature. Samskrith as I already mentioned was the refined form of Vedic language(language used in the Vedas). It later turned out into classical language best suited for poems and plays. The Vedas are basically taught mouth to mouth, so they never needed a script to write the Vedas. They were retained through Guru-Shishya Parampara until the advent of newer forms of literature in the dravidian culture. They were codified and written in around 1800BC to 1500BC.

[mahadevan]

Hi Shoyonika, appreciate your acceptance that vedas are written in vedic and not sanskrit. But you are saying that Sanskrit is a classical languagae, that is not true. To get a classical status a language has to qualify certain criteria, sanskrit does not qualify, that is the reason that even the Indian government has not declared sanskrit as a classical language. Infact Indian govt has a less stringent criteria for that.

You said "They were codified and written in around 1800BC to 1500BC" any proof for that ?
The earliest writing known in India is of Tamil and it is scientifically dated at before 1000BC, the earliest known sanskrit writing is around 200 AD (yeah it is AD and not BC)

[manyvan2000]

a few questions..
some for the sanskritisists and some for tamils..
I wonder what the root of the word "sanskrit" is?
If it is the "devabhasha" who are / were the devas?
what are the different types of poetry available in sanskrit?
If sanskrit is an invented language, who invented it and why?
If sanskrit / tamil is derived from the other, why does it have a different script / grammar?
Be it Tamil / Sanskrit, any foreigner would immediately accept and appreciate the supremacy of indian languages and culture. But, why is it that indians believe foreigners (who can never learn properly any of the complex indian languages) like Max Mueller and have such hatred and filth over the other indians?
If these so called acredited universities are trustworthy, why do they change their theories quite often ( aryan invasion , aryan migration, no aryan invasion, no migration ...)

[manyvan2000]

http://www.totalkannada.com/Kannada%20is%20as%20old%20as%20Tamil.asp
:rotfl:

[bis_mala]

If it is the "devabhasha" who are / were the devas?

The devas are missing but the basha is around!

[devapriya]

Friends,

Deva basha and claims are meaningless.

Tamil Bakthi movement also claims Lord Siva made Tamil.

Tamil in its modernity uses One thired of its words Burrowed from Sanskrit and half that from Pali and Pragrit.

Devapriya.

[mahadevan]

Deva basha and claims are meaningless. Thanks for accepting that


Tamil Bakthi movement also claims Lord Siva made Tamil.Some might claim, but the average Tamil know that Tamil is a natural language with it its own evolutionary history


Tamil in its modernity uses One thired of its words Burrowed from Sanskrit and half that from Pali and Pragrit.You got it wrong here buddy, from your posts it looks like you are confused between telegu and tamil, you might speak telugu at home and see those words in tamil too and conclude as above. The truth is sanskrit is a liturgical language that borrowed heavily from Tamil and prakrits both in vocabulary and grammer, though the creators of the language did give it a shape around 200 AD, the language never took off, but for in the imaginary world of a very few twice born.

[shoyonika]

The truth is sanskrit is a liturgical language that borrowed heavily from Tamil and prakrits both in vocabulary and grammer, though the creators of the language did give it a shape around 200 AD, the language never took off, but for in the imaginary world of a very few twice born.
ye ye never took off, thats true, and mind you, never will it take off from the world, because neither did Samskrith beg for a classical language tag from the government, nor did the very few twice born ever need to start a movement to plead people to accept the existence of Samskrith, unlike what happened with the other language :lol:

[crazy]

very intresting topic! :clap: :thumbsup:

keep going FSG! :)

[Eelavar]

A language could not stop to evolve... as the universe... :roll:
Look how much the modern Tamil was englished..

Another thing that should be sure is that everything evolve from something :D
Every human languages must have for root an unique and primitive human language... :roll:

[arul_satish]

A few are telling that devas are missing. If you watch closely there is a Tamil community in Tamilnad called Devars(Gods). But their magical powers are missing???!!!

[bis_mala]

A few are telling that devas are missing. If you watch closely there is a Tamil community in Tamilnad called Devars(Gods). But their magical powers are missing???!!!

But these devas within your contemplation (DWYC) are fighters and are more like the samurais. So, when we talk of DWYC we have to talk about their sword power rather than occu.lt powers, I suppose.