Today, is India a rich country or a poor country ?

[Soomy]

Rich countries of Asia such as Japan, Korea and Singapore are developped and wealthy, China is the next one. But how about India ? 65% of people can read whereas some developped countries rate literacy are 80-90%. Some specialists are sceptic about its future. If India would be as rich as Japan, we were already dead :D .

What is your point of view ?

[mahadevan]

Evey Civilization has its time of glory followed by doom, it is a cycle. India was once the wealthiest under the sun. Rich not just in materialism, but also in Religion and Spiritualism. The sucess of a civilization depends on it providing a system where individual's actions act in synergy with the system. A good example is the current US system where a mediocre person can create wonders because the system maximizes the fruit of his efforts. But this is double edged sword, a great system may inturn breed mediocrity because people do not have to work hard for success. At its peak the members of a society bask in their glory and work less and are less creative. This may lead to the demise of the civilization.
India I belive is in an upturn in that cycle, we have had our bottom. As of today we are neither rich nor poor, but going forward we would definetly be rich. The system in India is machuring. Our infrastructure and human intellectual capital is tremendously advancing. It is only good news going forward !

[Soomy]

I Think the basic problem in India is corruption, over-population, lack of literacy and the point you have mentionned is that intellectual and indian scientists who have studied in India have to live and work abroad (brain drain).

If India becomes a real developped country, there would be less arranged marriages, less bollywood movies, less cricket match and a lost of faith.

It's true that Manmohan Singh haven't commit any corruption like Vajpayee, but I'm sorry to say that he is not the man of the situation in India.

[Idiappam]

India is a poor country!

[venkiks]

The answer is relative to who the question is asked to. If the question is asked to an IT or IT related worker, they might say India is rich or atleast they are rich.

Most part of india is yet to improve. Education is the key and this has to spread in a rapid phase.

Politics? I don't know how much it can play a role in a common man's economy if he cares less for it. According to me Politics is a waste of time unless it is voting season.

-Venki

[Idiappam]

Why would an IT man say India is rich, when most to 'em end up working abroad 'cos India couldn't pay 'em good!

[Sandeep]

India is a poor country because India has the largest number of people under proverty line (followed by china).

Though India has the 10th biggest GDP the population is equally big.

Total GDP 2004
(millions of
Ranking Economy US dollars)
1 United States 11,667,515
2 Japan 4,623,398
3 Germany 2,714,418
4 United Kingdom 2,140,898
5 France 2,002,582 a
6 Italy 1,672,302
7 China 1,649,329
8 Spain 991,442
9 Canada 979,764
10 India 691,876

[Sandeep]

Why would an IT man say India is rich, when most to 'em end up working abroad 'cos India couldn't pay 'em good!

IT employees are well paid in India. Comparing Income/Expense ratio IT Employee is having much better salary in India. Then why do IT guys go outside because there they dont spend much (by controling needs) and thus when converted to Indian ruppees its Jackpot.

[Soomy]

India's GDP per capita (per one people) is ranked 154th in the world :? according to the source : http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/rankorder/2004rank.html in 2004. The reality is a corrupted minister, having a big swimming pool and wearing a golden chain around his neck, is richer as 1000 times as poor people income, that is why the global GDP of India is ranked 10th in the world, and it is not a proof that India is a rich country.

[Sandeep]

Even the 154th place in Per capita GDP is doesnot show the reality. It only divides the Total GDP with the population. Which means with the number of millionaires and billionaires increasing in India Per capita GDP is going to increase. Also a good part of the countries GDP is with MNC's (which means not actually with Indians).

So even with a GDP growth of 8.1% the number of people under proverty line MAY BE increasing. So while GDP is a very important metric we need to give equal importance to the percentage under proverty line.

By the way can anybody tell me the process for determining the Proverty line ?

How about the index of Gross National Happiness (GNH) which requires an evaluation of the effect of economic activity to welfare. Its implemented in Butan and incresingly interesting the western thinkers.

[mahadevan]

hey guys, offcourse we are poor, but look at the pace of economic development since MR Rao/Singh started the liberalization. Even the gap between the rich and poor may widen (it would happen with more capitalism) but the poor are relatively better off then they were before. It is a slow process, but we would get there eventually. It is just a matter of time. Fortunately we are a functioning democracy, look at the voters rejection of Naidu/Krishna. IT or other high tech cannot solve the problems of the masses, but they, by their consumption pattern can trigger an economic turnaround of the masses, provided the goods and service are created by the masses. We need more hi volume manufacturing activities, though they may be lower in the value chain, they do provide huge employment potential.

[Sandeep]

Mahadevan,

You are theoritically correct but how we keep track to know whether this is happening. While the government is so eager to say we have 8.1% GDP growth this year why are they hesitant to give the below proverty line index (I am calling it PLI).

News papers continuesly (mostly on a weekly basis) keep track of GDP trends why they dont do the same for PLI.

All government policies are based on GDP why because it directly effects taxation. Shouldnt it be based on PLI or may be some other welfare index.

Most Indians are ready for any kind of economic reform as long as they have reason to believe it is really good for the larger majority. What better way than say proverty has reduced from XX% to XX% in a XX years of liberalisation.

[lordstanher]

Well, IMHO a nation/society wud be rich/poor based on not just the material/economical growth but also its social values/ethics. I wud say India is getting richer as an economy w/ more materialistic benefits (we hav equal level of technology/luxury in our personal lives today w/ developed nations as opposed to 20 yrs ago) & also monetary oppurtuinities (business etc.) but as a society its getting poorer as ppl. from all strata of society r getting more material/sensual-oriented as those of developed nations hav, & thus steady decay of basic moral values/ethics is setting in......!

[mahadevan]

Just like a company having lag,log,exponential growth, stagnating, decline phases, an economy (for that matter many more things) also has those phases, to get into the exponential growth phase, we need critical mass, we are approaching that. Once we get it our rise would be the envy of every body. Hi Sandeep, it might appear theoritical, but it will happen.
Lordstander you said we are losing our moral values, other than good family values, what high moral values do we have that the west does not ?

[lordstanher]

what high moral values do we have that the west does not ?
Actually this qsn. wud be very much suitable for asking w/ respect to today's society....... :wink: :D
If I might rephrase ur qsn.- We were always known to've possessed high social/moral values tat the West allegedly did not, but wat all do we hav left now??
And as for ur mention of family values, I'm dubious abt those existing among the coming gens. either- marriage today has become a disguised business deal based on the groom's/bride's qualifications & financial/social status, having children has become a goal of producing further qualified professionals w/ the same status, caring for aged parents is near forgotten.........and even as a nuclear family, living together as one is yet again a matter of luck w/ job prospects abroad beckoning (unless the whole family migrates abroad! :D).......

[Rohit]

There is a stark difference between moral values and social and family values. The former is primarily based on individual's conscience, initially developed through intra-family, interfamily and wider social interactions, which is, in turn, further developed by one's own cognitive ability in better judging and distinguishing between right and wrong, even when the right and wrong may be conceptually very subjective. That is why we would find more commonality in moral judgements of different cultures than in formulation of social and family values. While the latter is based more on religious and cultural grounds, which may significantly differ across various societies and cultures. Hence, it is important not to mix moral values with social, family and cultural values and put them under one category for intersociety comparison.

As far as the standard of moral judgement is concerned, I would be of the opinion that the western moral values surpass by far the eastern moral values, that is why western countries have far better concepts of social welfare, welfare society and better appreciation and respect for individual's freedom. To protect such moral values, effective enforcement of law and order is essential; and one would see far better and efficient law and order enforcement institutions operating in Western societies than that in Eastern societies. Lack or dilution of such institutional strength is indicative of moral corruption within the society; and one would make clear observations of more widely spread moral corruption in Indian subcontinent and other Asian countries, leaving only a few as exceptions.

The main reason for the declining cultural values in India has more to do with India's own long running lag in socio-economic growth, which is attributable entirely to us Indians only and to no one else. We Indians have formulated and adopted certain fatal ideas and misconceptions in many areas, and they are so deeply rooted that they are now not easy to get rid off from the Indian social and cultural structures, which ironically drives more and more Indians to undermine even those values that are worth preserving.

[lordstanher]

As far as the standard of moral judgement is concerned, I would be of the opinion that the western moral values surpass by far the eastern moral values
Really?? :D Oh, well, to each their own opinion....!


western countries have far better concepts of social welfare, welfare society and better appreciation and respect for individual's freedom.
Hmm....personally, I find tat the concept/definition of individual's freedom differs in sum way or the other in different societies, not just West vs East.....


The main reason for the declining cultural values in India has more to do with India's own long running lag in socio-economic growth, which is attributable entirely to us Indians only and to no one else. We Indians have formulated and adopted certain fatal ideas and misconceptions in many areas, and they are so deeply rooted that they are now not easy to get rid off from the Indian social and cultural structures, which ironically drives more and more Indians to undermine even those values that are worth preserving.
Actually, I find the more widely-acknowledged reason for this decline in values today is the increase in materialism among Indians. This also branches out to the moral corruption we find today. But the major decline is bcos of today's greater society adopting misinterpreted notions abt modern civilisation & progress from the West, and this is attributable entirely to us Indians! Majority of us feel tat the developed nations in the West came up bcos of their lack of spiritual/cultural backing & material-oriented goals......this misguided notion has lead to disregard of even basic moral values/ideals among us w/ our ppl. gearing themselves entirely in materialistic directions, whereby they enter the realms of money, power & pleasure. While the aims of most men in our society hav for long been www- Wine, Wealth & Women (where women not nec. = wife!), women today r moving w/ equal steadfastness towards the aims of 3M- Money, Material comforts & Men (again now Men not nec. = husband!)..... :D
Once this state has been reached by a society, the power of discrimination between basic rights/wrongs slowly declines among individuals, leading (eventually) to even the total ruin of the entire society, even if the nation, as an economy wud be fully developed.

[Rohit]

Actually, I find the more widely-acknowledged reason for this decline in values today is the increase in materialism among Indians. This also branches out to the moral corruption we find today.

Majority of us feel tat the developed nations in the West came up bcos of their lack of spiritual/cultural backing & material-oriented goals......this misguided notion has lead to disregard of even basic moral values/ideals among us w/ our ppl.
I definitely would have agreed with your assertions only if they had been expressed after taking into account the Indian historical record of over a thousand years. Simply because the assertions made after some introspection would have been entirely different and couldn’t have been the same as they are.

As it is quite common phenomenon among many Indians, taking shelter under the name of conventional spiritualism and conveniently use it to cover the hard facts about our repeated past failures in protecting ourselves from foreign invasions. The conflicting fixations of conventional spiritualistic world-view can hardly be an effective weapon in deterring invaders who posses entirely different world-views from that of ours and have determined to conquer the world.

The point I am trying to make is that the conventional spiritualism, as we believe in India, is entirely of the different nature than that believed by Islamic Moguls and Christian Europeans. For them, the material world is absolutely real and not an illusion as we Indians are lead to believe, which completely undermined the value and importance of scientific and technological development for our timely progress. While in the west they considered material gains and the knowledge on them equally important, if not more important, for the well being and development of their people and society. While the contemporary Indians strongly believed that only ignorant would think of material gains and acquire scientific knowledge on physical world as it is completely useless for spiritual development as the physical world itself is not real but a mere illusion. Such extremes of absurd ideas can do nothing but to completely mess up peoples’ mind, impeding the cognitive development of the entire Indian mass, which could only result in generations after generations with no higher than mediocre intellect.

A non-conventional spiritualism can be classed as a highly value oriented world-view based on rational inquiry of the nature and the quest for rational knowledge with high moral and ethical principles. - The notion grasped by the self-actualising and scientific community.

In essence, spiritualism, in general, comes in with different shapes and sizes with different tastes, flavours and colours to satisfy different needs of different sections of human society.

Thus, spiritualism, in general, is essentially a subjective product of human cognition and nothing more.

Therefore, only a balanced view of both can satisfy the objective and subjective human needs.

Like I said earlier, there is a discernible distinction between the notion of moral values and the notion of religious, social and cultural values. In no way one can categorise materialism and conventional spiritualism under the same heading of morality and ethics, as they are not, by any measure, the choices of right and wrong.

There is a good example of morality triumphing over the false and heedless religious, social and cultural traditions/values. The example of Sati tradition (self-cremation after husband's death) in India was, for some absurd reasons, integrated as religious, social and cultural values, but had to be abolished by some sane minds only a couple of centuries ago. Why? Simply because the religious, social and cultural tradition of sati was utterly unjust and immoral.

Why spiritualism cannot be the subject of moral judgement is made even clearer if examined closely. Most, if not all, moral and ethical judgements directly involve objective and perceptible reality, while the conventional spiritualism involves only subjective and non-perceptible mental dealings.

- A person can be neither a materialist nor a conventional spiritualist, can have a balanced worldview and lead a happy life.

- A person can be totally allergic to all kinds of material possessions but may have 100% conventional spiritual convictions, but he is definitely destined to become destitute, poor and vulnerable to being bullied and then enslaved by the healthier and wealthier and end-up with a miserable life.

- A person can be a materialist with little conventional spiritual convictions, can have a balanced worldview, become wealthier and lead a happy life.

- A person can be both a materialist and a conventional spiritualist, can have a relatively balanced worldview and lead a happy life.

So, there is no mileage in just trumpeting conventional spiritualism/culture etc. and ignore the ground realities when a large section of the society is struggling to meet even their basic needs. Conventional spiritualism neither can provide the shield against the invading forces nor can it feed millions of empty stomachs. Only a sustained pragmatic and balanced approach can meet both the human needs. In fact, it is rather us being not able to realise these factual realities early and soon enough, which would amount to an appalling aggregate of cognitive, social and moral corruption. :)

[lordstanher]

Rohit,
While I do agree w/ most of ur points, I also wish to clarify tat I did not intend to emphasise on conventional or- if u might call it so- hardcore/fanatical spirituality.
While it is not possible for the entire society to totally shun materialistic gains, for as u pointed out, there hav been major developments beneficail to society bcos of those, at the same time we must hav the power of discrimination to choose between wat is right/necessary & wat is not. And tat exactly is wat our culture teaches us.
Only once the ppl. of every level hav tat power can the sciety develop in the real sense.
And yes even spirituality, if followed as a pure belief or as a need to maintain certain 'vows' like total dettachment, is a sheer bane!
In fact our original concept of spirituality has of late, sadly been grossly misinterpreted to a large extent by many ppl. in our society as well as otuside. Many foreigners who've supposedly studied our spiritual concepts developed the opinion tat our philosophy instructs all of us to basically abandon everything in the 'wordly' life, even basic facilities/comforts (inc. wearing footwear for our feet!) & live as if in the pre-historic times.....and thus they (& so do we today) end up attributing our entire culture/philosophy itself to our backwardness! Which is actually wrong.
If our culture's been based entirely on conventional spirituality tat dictates total detachment even from relations, then we wud be following hypocrisy, 'cos we r one nation tat is (or was?) strongly bound by family relations/values as per our culture, eg. supporting our children/taking care of our parents etc......!
Now taking the case of India in the last 50+ yrs since Independence, cud r u really be sure tat we havn't developed ourselves as a nation (& r now even deteriorating in various aspects) bcos we were hung up on conventional spirituality?? If its the general masses- tat too those in the rural areas- then tat maybe right........but wat abt the various politicians & other authorities in responsible positions who were running the country?? Its not as if they lived on conventional spirituality like yogis/sadhus & were totally detached from the materialistic world! Quite the opposite in fact!
Most of them were educated & lived highly sophisticated lifestyles, being well in touch w/ the material world, inc. having had the chance to interact w/ foreign nations as well......yet, y did our nation not develop under their leadership all these decades??
Its bcos they were the main ppl. to be excessively materialistic, many of them caring for their personal gains of wealth, power & even pleasure rather than fulfilling their duty of wat they were supposed to do in their positions!
Had they been material-oriented enuff to just bring in scientific/economical development for us, tat wud've been worthwhile.....but no, they went over to the other extreme of materialism!
Thus had we been half as religious/culture bound as we seemed so far, we wud've utilised the teachings of our culture/spiritual philosophy accordingly & wud've brought in the many scientific/technological/economic changes tat the West had developed, w/out having to give up our own culture/values, as we r today.
As Swami Vivekananda had rightly said, we need just the Western technology combined w/ the Eastern philosophy for our total development. And tat these 2 wud clash w/ each other is a myth!
Even as u stated, we can hav a balance between materialism & spirituality, provided we hav the power of discrimination for tat balance.
For eg. even today, when our culture won't by ne means, come in the way of bringing in better roads in our cities (atleast), we don't care abt adopting this from the West! Nor abt better/safer public transport or efficient infrastructure........the list goes on!
But we've managed to copy w/ less than half the speed, celebrating Valentine's Day, internet porn, uncontrolled/casual sex, live-in relationships, pubs/nightclubs & end up complaining tat our culture/values r coming in the way of these & 'hampering our development'!!
So where is the question of balance between materialism & sprituality here??
So as its not prudent to hav conventional spirituality triumph over materialistic needs, its also necessary to hav a proper understanding of our spirituality in order to guide us in filtering in the necessary/useful alone from other cultures & develop oursleves accordingly, or else even then we wud end up in an appalling extreme of social/moral corruption. :D

[Rohit]

Now taking the case of India in the last 50+ yrs since Independence, cud r u really be sure tat we havn't developed ourselves as a nation (& r now even deteriorating in various aspects) bcos we were hung up on conventional spirituality?

If its the general masses- tat too those in the rural areas- then tat maybe right........but wat abt the various politicians & other authorities in responsible positions who were running the country?

Most of them were educated & lived highly sophisticated lifestyles, being well in touch w/ the material world, inc. having had the chance to interact w/ foreign nations as well......yet, y did our nation not develop under their leadership all these decades?

Even as u stated, we can hav a balance between materialism & spirituality, provided we hav the power of discrimination for tat balance.

So where is the question of balance between materialism & spirituality here?
Not only I can see it, but understand it too, why it is so difficult and/or upsetting to reconcile with all these enigmatic and conflicting situations that can easily, but inaccurately, be viewed as something that have dropped in totally uninvited from nowhere.

But I don't see it that way. Since, as I said it earlier, only we Indians as we were and as we are, are totally responsible for our own destruction and making ourselves vulnerable for submitting our identity and self-respect to the invading forces and cultures.

If one ever cares analysing it carefully and thoroughly, one would hardly fail to see that all these conundrums clearly trace their roots only to our non-realistic and primitive "Way of Thinking and Doing Things". Unfortunately, the Indian "Way of Thinking and Doing Things" have undoubtedly remained, for too long, revolving around developing concepts and ideas that were predominantly oriented towards religious and spiritual goals with no realistic grasp of the physical reality around us.

-The evidence of the same primitive "Way of Thinking and Doing Things", centred around utterly baseless mental fragments of dogmatic extravagance can still be witnessed and observed in many mediocre Indians having no discerning power or clue whatsoever about the detrimental impact such impotent and impetuous mindset would have on the cognitive development of their children.

Having lived in such a narrow and restricted worldview for centuries, it is not surprising at all that we have ended-up in forming a rigid, undiscerning and injudicious society that seriously trapped itself in formulating some of the most damaging and detrimental binding (i.e. impeding) factors that were enough to ruin us forever.

The binding factors such as:

-Caste system
-Gender discriminations
-Ignorance
-Misconception of human intelligence
-None of the Indian languages could evolve, develop and progress beyond religious cults and poetic arena
-Religious rivalry leading to blind accommodation and countless inventions of Gods and Goddesses.
-Restricted development of skills and productivity to agricultural activities only
-Unquestionable devotion and duty towards phony "sadhus" and "sants"
-Widespread blind beliefs in gods, fate, births and rebirths, soul liberation, reincarnations etc.
-Widespread illiteracy
-Widespread superstitions etc.

Once a society has suppressed and restricted its conceptual grasp and development to such a blinding and narrow field, the developments of their language begins to suffer seriously; and so suffers the cognitive development of the masses and coming generations after generations.

The adoption of English language in our higher educational needs, commercial and professional dealings is an obvious evidence of our linguistic handicap. Once, a society drives itself in the helpless adoption of a non-native language, the adoption of non-native culture becomes unstoppable by default as, language and culture are essentially inseparable entities, unless one can de-culturise oneself, which, for most Indians, is cognitively even more difficult to do and achieve under the given situation. In nutshell, what we are seeing today is nothing but a mutually interactive process of multiple binding factors acting in conjunction.

Such widespread cognitive underdevelopment of society would eventually lead to:

-Linguistic corruption
-Cultural corruption
-Moral corruption
-Social corruption
-Political corruption
-Over population
-Regional conflicts
-Social and political chaos
-Social discord etc.

Thus, a complete resolution to the dilemma of tracing the source of power to discriminate and judge what is rational, right and necessary and what is irrational, wrong and unnecessary is undoubtedly leads to one's own "Way of Thinking and Doing Things", which in turn, leads to the cognitive development of individuals in the society, irrespective of the culture and creed.

So, what we are witnessing is not just snap-shots of independent and non-interactive events but they are the consequential outcome of a long chain-reaction of mutually interacting multiple factors.

Unfortunately, it is not possible to go through an in-depth analysis of such chain-reaction and cover all the points in as detail as one would like to. Also one may find all these too shocking and disturbing to absorb and reconcile with, but the point I am trying to make here is not that strenuous to grasp for further introspection. :)

[lordstanher]

While I do find an agreeable backing in most of ur points, I beg to differ in this one aspect u stated:

The adoption of English language in our higher educational needs, commercial and professional dealings is an obvious evidence of our linguistic handicap. Once, a society drives itself in the helpless adoption of a non-native language, the adoption of non-native culture becomes unstoppable by default as, language and culture are essentially inseparable entities...
Tat language forms the sole/main basis for exposure to/adaptation of a non-native culture needn't nec. be true......if u look at it this way, India is one country where nearly every state has a variation in its culture along w/ the language.
Yet most ppl. who settle down in another part of the country from their native regions don't give up their own culture, even if they adopt the local language or get used to the local mannerisms there.
Taking my own case, I'm Tamil but born/brought up in Hyd. where I learnt Telugu/Hindi......then we even lived for a while in Rajasthan, where I was exposed to a totally different culture, & I even learnt Marwadi there (now forgotten!) but all this never made me/my family less native Tamils......even my father's family (starting from 3 gens. before him!) was born/raised in AP, thus they r even more fluent in Telugu than Tamil (which they cud only speak & sounds quite different from the native (TN) Tamil).......but they still hadn't switched over to Andhra culture even tho sum of their successive gens. had married Andhra ppl.....:D
Plus I've evn come across many Marwadis/other northies settled down South for generations & turning out to be as fluent in the local South languages as their own, yet remaining attached to their native culture!
OK if individuals r not to be counted, even if u look at a general society, Hindi is becoming more common as a national/official language even in certain parts of the South where it was not welcome earlier......but tat hasn't led to such a severe dettachment from the native culture in the South so far.
So IMO, its solely left to an individual if they want to embrace even the main culture/other parts of it while learning a non-native language for watever reason/s they do so. :D

[madhuk]

-deleted-
Can a modern multi-racial, multi-linguistic and multi-religion society remain united and caring? The answer is yes if we clearly define the role of Government and rights of Individuals. The US constitution is the closet to any modern society gave such assurances. Can India do it? Yes! In addition to US Constitution, we have to adopt sovereign rights of Individual state?s culture and language similar to European Union. As lordshanter said, if some one goes from one Indian state to another state for a living, the person must learn and respect the local language/culture similar EU nations...... also practice two-language formula, States mother tongue and English as link language to communicate with neighbors or across the Globe.

[mahadevan]

Three most significant happenings in the last few decades have sown the seeds for a great Indian future

i)Privitizations of Eductaion: Purist often argue that the mushrooming of the private eng colleges has diluted the quality of education. Guess what, it is not the IIT/IIM ivory tower guys that has made India proud today, it is the graduates of abc college of eng and the muniyandi college of eng that has made our nation proud. Our nation is much better of with a lot of people having a basic knowledge then just a few being higly knowledge. Till now the latter was our model, knowledge mostly in the form of so called spiritual thingi (that cannot stand the test of a senile person) was being held by a select few and they limited access to it for the majoity.
This privitazation started in TN and spread like wild fire to AP/Karnataka, thanks a million to the TN politicians.

ii) Affirmative actions: what happened in TN, in the name of quota system, has started the beginning of a great social justice affirmation. It made the subjugated masses the biggest benificieries of the expanding knowledge domain and as their intellect develops, a lot of this dogmatism that we see in India would be shown the door. Thanks again to certain sections of TN politicians

iii)Saying no to Hindi, if not for english, there would not have been any science and technology in India.
-deleted-
Today we are integrating with the entire world only because of English, again thanks to certain Politicians of TN

[lordstanher]

As lordshanter said, if some one goes from one Indian state to another state for a living, the person must learn and respect the local language/culture
Um....sorry madhuk but reading this comment of urs, I re-read my own post & I cudn't find ne such statement by myself as u mention....? :?
I only said tat its solely left to an individual if they want to embrace even the main culture/other parts of it while learning a non-native language for watever reason/s they do so.
And btw, my Id is actually STANHER, short for Standard Herald (my fav. car! :D)...thinking of changing it now tat many ppl. r finding it difficult to spell/interpret.....! :roll:

[madhuk]

lordstanher, this is what you said:

"Taking my own case, I'm Tamil but born/brought up in Hyd. where I learnt Telugu/Hindi......then we even lived for a while in Rajasthan, where I was exposed to a totally different culture, & I even learnt Marwadi there (now forgotten!) but all this never made me/my family less native Tamils......even my father's family (starting from 3 gens. before him!) was born/raised in AP, thus they r even more fluent in Telugu than Tamil (which they cud only speak & sounds quite different from the native (TN) Tamil).......but they still hadn't switched over to Andhra culture even tho sum of their successive gens. had married Andhra ppl....."

It means you and your faamily learned telugu and respected local culture. You did the same when you moved to rajasthan. When you respect local culture does not mean you disrepscet your own culture.

[sivajayan]

And btw, my Id is actually STANHER, short for Standard Herald (my fav. car! :D)...thinking of changing it now tat many ppl. r finding it difficult to spell/interpret.....! :roll:
I first read it "lord stuns her" for whatever reason! :lol:

[lordstanher]

And btw, my Id is actually STANHER, short for Standard Herald (my fav. car! :D)...thinking of changing it now tat many ppl. r finding it difficult to spell/interpret.....! :roll:
I first read it "lord stuns her" for whatever reason! :lol:
Aha.....here's the living proof of my point (which I've outlined above)......! :roll: :D

[arvind]

My father was poorer than my grandfather even though he got a first degree.

I am poorer than my father even though I got a second degree.

I am confident that my son will be poorer than me.

This is the lot of backward Third World societies like India that pretend to have moral high ground.

[gaddeswarup]

I have been browsing through Jeffrey Sachs' book 'The end of poverty", Penguin Books, 2005. I find the book interesting and Sachs had some success in rejuvenating the economies of Bolivia and Poland and mixed results in Russia. He has also colloborated with Indian economists. Some information about his work can be found in:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeffrey_Sachs
http://www.earthinstitute.columbia.edu/about/director/
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/commandingheights/shared/minitextlo/int_jeffreysachs.html
and links to some crtical articlers in:
http://www.danieldrezner.com/archives/001933.html
If others have read this book and have comments, I would like to know. Thanks.
Swarup

[Eelavar]

India is poor !

But India have many very rich personnality !

The division between the very rich and the very poor is rising in India....

[Fire111999]

Evey Civilization has its time of glory followed by doom, it is a cycle. India was once the wealthiest under the sun. Rich not just in materialism, but also in Religion and Spiritualism. The sucess of a civilization depends on it providing a system where individual's actions act in synergy with the system. A good example is the current US system where a mediocre person can create wonders because the system maximizes the fruit of his efforts. But this is double edged sword, a great system may inturn breed mediocrity because people do not have to work hard for success. At its peak the members of a society bask in their glory and work less and are less creative. This may lead to the demise of the civilization.
India I belive is in an upturn in that cycle, we have had our bottom. As of today we are neither rich nor poor, but going forward we would definetly be rich. The system in India is machuring. Our infrastructure and human intellectual capital is tremendously advancing. It is only good news going forward !

agree!

[Fire111999]

I Think the basic problem in India is corruption, over-population, lack of literacy and the point you have mentionned is that intellectual and indian scientists who have studied in India have to live and work abroad (brain drain).

If India becomes a real developped country, there would be less arranged marriages, less bollywood movies, less cricket match and a lost of faith.

It's true that Manmohan Singh haven't commit any corruption like Vajpayee, but I'm sorry to say that he is not the man of the situation in India.

despite corruption, bad infrastructure, lack of literacy, india is only going forwards now! there is a lot to be said for this.

though there has been a brain drain, now, indians are returning to india and with india's huge population, there is a huge brain resource in india!

and the average intellect of indians is quite high compared to other countries. and this is not just the latest generation; even my 80+ years old grandfather is very comfortable abt talking abt the internet. the only reason he doesn't use computers is cos he doesn't know english. and my grandma is very up to date and advocates very modern ideas (she is more ready to accept stuff like couples talking to each other and getting to know abt each other before marriage than so many other people).

[Fire111999]

hey guys, offcourse we are poor, but look at the pace of economic development since MR Rao/Singh started the liberalization. Even the gap between the rich and poor may widen (it would happen with more capitalism) but the poor are relatively better off then they were before. It is a slow process, but we would get there eventually. It is just a matter of time. Fortunately we are a functioning democracy, look at the voters rejection of Naidu/Krishna. IT or other high tech cannot solve the problems of the masses, but they, by their consumption pattern can trigger an economic turnaround of the masses, provided the goods and service are created by the masses. We need more hi volume manufacturing activities, though they may be lower in the value chain, they do provide huge employment potential.

according to tata steel's deputy managing director, dr. t. mukerjee, the manufacturing sector will serve to give a huge economic boost to india.

[Fire111999]

As far as the standard of moral judgement is concerned, I would be of the opinion that the western moral values surpass by far the eastern moral values
Really?? :D Oh, well, to each their own opinion....!


western countries have far better concepts of social welfare, welfare society and better appreciation and respect for individual's freedom.
Hmm....personally, I find tat the concept/definition of individual's freedom differs in sum way or the other in different societies, not just West vs East.....


The main reason for the declining cultural values in India has more to do with India's own long running lag in socio-economic growth, which is attributable entirely to us Indians only and to no one else. We Indians have formulated and adopted certain fatal ideas and misconceptions in many areas, and they are so deeply rooted that they are now not easy to get rid off from the Indian social and cultural structures, which ironically drives more and more Indians to undermine even those values that are worth preserving.
Actually, I find the more widely-acknowledged reason for this decline in values today is the increase in materialism among Indians. This also branches out to the moral corruption we find today. But the major decline is bcos of today's greater society adopting misinterpreted notions abt modern civilisation & progress from the West, and this is attributable entirely to us Indians! Majority of us feel tat the developed nations in the West came up bcos of their lack of spiritual/cultural backing & material-oriented goals......this misguided notion has lead to disregard of even basic moral values/ideals among us w/ our ppl. gearing themselves entirely in materialistic directions, whereby they enter the realms of money, power & pleasure. While the aims of most men in our society hav for long been www- Wine, Wealth & Women (where women not nec. = wife!), women today r moving w/ equal steadfastness towards the aims of 3M- Money, Material comforts & Men (again now Men not nec. = husband!)..... :D
Once this state has been reached by a society, the power of discrimination between basic rights/wrongs slowly declines among individuals, leading (eventually) to even the total ruin of the entire society, even if the nation, as an economy wud be fully developed.

i agree that this has been the misconception shared by many indians. but now, with india emerging as a superpower, and with westerners praising indian stuff like yoga, turmeric, neem, etc, indians are recognising that india has a great deal of good stuff and i should say that india will not only improve in its economy but also reclaim its superior culture and traditions that had been dying down!

[Fire111999]

For eg. even today, when our culture won't by ne means, come in the way of bringing in better roads in our cities (atleast), we don't care abt adopting this from the West! Nor abt better/safer public transport or efficient infrastructure........the list goes on!
But we've managed to copy w/ less than half the speed, celebrating Valentine's Day, internet porn, uncontrolled/casual sex, live-in relationships, pubs/nightclubs & end up complaining tat our culture/values r coming in the way of these & 'hampering our development'!!

it has definitely been true that indians have been only too quick to copy all the negative aspects of western culture instead of treasuring our own culture.

but now with the developments of india's economy, and the improvements in infrastructure that will be done for further improving our economy, india will become a richer place, in economic terms, and this will also indirectly promote indians to return to our own culture and traditions, and india will become a richer place in terms of values, etc as well.

[Fire111999]

Having lived in such a narrow and restricted worldview for centuries, it is not surprising at all that we have ended-up in forming a rigid, undiscerning and injudicious society that seriously trapped itself in formulating some of the most damaging and detrimental binding (i.e. impeding) factors that were enough to ruin us forever.

The binding factors such as:

-Caste system
-Gender discriminations
-Ignorance
-Misconception of human intelligence
-None of the Indian languages could evolve, develop and progress beyond religious cults and poetic arena


caste system: a class division that was being unreasonably accentuated and misinterpretated and became quite horrible. but hasn't there been a great deal of improvement? and isn't this the same as that in the uk, where royalty is above the rest. they also had their version of our caste system and it does still exist. taking the example of the univeristy of cambridge, this is very evident in st john's college!

and on the topic of the west, there can be nothing worse than their moral values! from the past, when it was alright for guys to have dealings in the petticoat line and for "ladies" to engage in affairs as long as they were discreet, it has only worsened to loose sex with not even the previous effort to be discreet (not that being discreet makes it any better), etc in today's world

gender discriminations: as if gender discriminations are only present in india! MCPs exist everywhere!

ignorance: ignorance in india does not really exist to a large extent and this is getting better with better education that is reaching the villages as well.



-Misconception of human intelligence
-None of the Indian languages could evolve, develop and progress beyond religious cults and poetic arena

huh?


-Religious rivalry leading to blind accommodation and countless inventions of Gods and Goddesses.

god cannot be confined to one form. and it is easier for pple to concentrate during praying if they were to use an image or an idol during their worship rather than trying to understand the abstractness and all-encompassing-ness of god. and also different pple are comfortable with different images of god. and so there has been the very reasonable accommodation and invention of countless inventions of gods and goddesses.


-Restricted development of skills and productivity to agricultural activities only

how can u actually say this? india is developing in so many areas and right at the top of the list must be IT!


-Unquestionable devotion and duty towards phony "sadhus" and "sants"
-Widespread blind beliefs in gods, fate, births and rebirths, soul liberation, reincarnations etc.
-Widespread superstitions etc.

i do not wish to comment on pple's devotion to other pple. i can only say that i do not but can't take liberty in commenting on other poeple regarding this.

and i believe in god and i do not think that it is a blind belief!

supersitions: this word itself has a negative meaning attached to it. all i can say is that i truely belive that many supersitiosn are just misinterpretations of sth totally reasonable.


-Widespread illiteracy

which is decreasing!

[Fire111999]

The adoption of English language in our higher educational needs, commercial and professional dealings is an obvious evidence of our linguistic handicap. Once, a society drives itself in the helpless adoption of a non-native language, the adoption of non-native culture becomes unstoppable by default as, language and culture are essentially inseparable entities...
Tat language forms the sole/main basis for exposure to/adaptation of a non-native culture needn't nec. be true......if u look at it this way, India is one country where nearly every state has a variation in its culture along w/ the language.
Yet most ppl. who settle down in another part of the country from their native regions don't give up their own culture, even if they adopt the local language or get used to the local mannerisms there.
Taking my own case, I'm Tamil but born/brought up in Hyd. where I learnt Telugu/Hindi......then we even lived for a while in Rajasthan, where I was exposed to a totally different culture, & I even learnt Marwadi there (now forgotten!) but all this never made me/my family less native Tamils......even my father's family (starting from 3 gens. before him!) was born/raised in AP, thus they r even more fluent in Telugu than Tamil (which they cud only speak & sounds quite different from the native (TN) Tamil).......but they still hadn't switched over to Andhra culture even tho sum of their successive gens. had married Andhra ppl.....:D
Plus I've evn come across many Marwadis/other northies settled down South for generations & turning out to be as fluent in the local South languages as their own, yet remaining attached to their native culture!
OK if individuals r not to be counted, even if u look at a general society, Hindi is becoming more common as a national/official language even in certain parts of the South where it was not welcome earlier......but tat hasn't led to such a severe dettachment from the native culture in the South so far.
So IMO, its solely left to an individual if they want to embrace even the main culture/other parts of it while learning a non-native language for watever reason/s they do so. :D

agree!

[Fire111999]

My father was poorer than my grandfather even though he got a first degree.

I am poorer than my father even though I got a second degree.

I am confident that my son will be poorer than me.

This is the lot of backward Third World societies like India that pretend to have moral high ground.

you can't make generalisations like this based on personal experience! this is totally not true in my case. my dad is richer than his dad and i can't say anything for myself cos i'm still studying.

[Eelavar]

It's unfortunate to say, but India is poor, his hard history proof how much it was robbed and suffered from it.

[Eelavar]

[tscii:f9a8ff253b]THE IMPOVERISHMENT OF INDIA

India is always associated in the world with poverty : Mother Teresa, Unicef, or Calcutta. This image has been enhanced by books such as the City of Joy, an international best-seller, which takes a little part of India - the Calcutta slums - and gives the impression to the naïve and ignorant western readers, that it constitutes the whole of India. Another factor which reinforces the image of poverty is the tremendous fame which Mother Theresa enjoyed in her lifetime - and even after her death, as she is in the process of being made a saint. While it is true that Mother Theresa did a tremendous job in Calcutta, she never tried to counterbalance the very negative image of India that her name was carrying, with some praise for the country which had adopted her for fifty years. She could have spoken for instance about the great hospitality of Indians, or the open-mindedness of Hindu religion, which had allowed her to practise Christianity near one of the most sacred temples of the country, or even about the near worship which most Hindus showed for her.

It is true that there is a tremendous amount of poverty in India, and that many people can only afford one meal a day. But four things should be known. Firstly, that until the 18th century, in spite of the repeated Muslim invasions, India was known as one of the richest countries of the world, the land “of milk and honey”. You only have to read the numerous accounts of travellers from different countries, who all marvelled at India’s prosperity.
The second thing, is that all the great famines of India happened during the British time. Many historians, such as Frenchman Guy Deleury, have documented the economic rape of India by the British : “Industrially the British suffocated India , gradually strangling Indian industries whose finished products, textiles in particular, were of a quality unique in the world which has made them famous over the centuries. Instead they oriented Indian industries towards jute, cotton, tea, oil seeds, which they needed as raw materials for their home industries. They employed cheap labour for the enterprises while traditional artisans were perishing. India, which used to be a land of plenty, where milk and honey flowed started drying” (Modèle Indou)… According to British records, one million Indians died of famine between 1800 and 1825, 4 million between 1825-1850, 5 million between 1850-1875 and 15 million between 1875-1900. Thus 25 million Indians died in 100 years ! The British must be proud of their bloody record. It is probably more honourable and straightforward to kill in the name of Allah, than in the guise of petty commercial interests and total disregard for the ways of a 5000 year civilisation. Thus, by the beginning of the 20th century, India was bled dry and there were no resources left.

The third fact, is that after Independence, whatever poverty there still was in this country, there were no more famines, as India managed to become self-sufficient in food through the Green Revolution (whatever negative side effects it had on India’s ecology - but that is another story). This is a great achievement, a tremendous task of which India can be proud off. For if you look at China, India’s largest neighbour, which always invites natural comparison with India as they share many of the same problems and characteristics, it went through tremendous traumas after independence. Millions died of hunger, for instance, when Mao diverted peasants from cultivating the land, in his misguided and megalomaniac effort to increase steel production.

Finally, the history of the British would be incomplete without mentioning the positive side. The unification of India by a single language, although it is hoped that it will be eventually replaced by India's true language of the future, acceptable to all. The vast railway system, which more than anything else unified India. The remarkable Postal system, whose structures have survived till today. The roads network of India. But all these were not really meant for the welfare of India, but for a better administration of their own colony.
And ultimately, the question should be asked: "did the British leave India with any understanding, any inkling of the greatness of the country they had lived with for two centuries"? Except for a few souls like Annie Besant or Sister Nivedita, the answer seems to be: NO. And today’s British Prime Minister probably does not understand one bit more about India than Lord Mountbatten did. But then Mountabatten ought to have known better.
[/tscii:f9a8ff253b]

[Fire111999]

oh pls! don't talk abt the past. talk and think abt the future, india's future! the way i see it, india's future is really bright!

[Eelavar]

Fire,

I have hope too.

But in any case, Future is made by the past.

So if you know well the past, you must be able to know well the future....

[Fire111999]

look at the present for heaven's sake!!!

india is an emerging superpower! pple want to come to india. indians are becoming more conscious of their own merits: their higher intellectual capabilities, their culture, etc.

how can you deny that india is growing and it is a rich country, not only in terms of its economy, but in its human resource, its culture, etc?

[Eelavar]

Fire,

I'm not denying that India is humanly rich.

But materially we are continuing to be robbed.

[Fire111999]

Fire,

I'm not denying that India is humanly rich.



not only rich in human resources as i already mentioned!


But materially we are continuing to be robbed.

huh?

[goodsense]

Elevar wrote:

"According to British records, one million Indians died of famine between 1800 and 1825, 4 million between 1825-1850, 5 million between 1850-1875 and 15 million between 1875-1900. Thus 25 million Indians died in 100 years !"

My ancestors from 1838 were well aware of these facts, the reason why they left India. My parents generation always say, if their ancestors did not leave, we wouldn't be here today. So regardless of what some people may think we have to thank God for our survival not that the British meant well for us. I wrote elsewhere the reason behidn them taking us out of India.

[Fire111999]

Elevar wrote:

"According to British records, one million Indians died of famine between 1800 and 1825, 4 million between 1825-1850, 5 million between 1850-1875 and 15 million between 1875-1900. Thus 25 million Indians died in 100 years !"

My ancestors from 1838 were well aware of these facts, the reason why they left India. My parents generation always say, if their ancestors did not leave, we wouldn't be here today. So regardless of what some people may think we have to thank God for our survival not that the British meant well for us. I wrote elsewhere the reason behidn them taking us out of India.

i repeat myself once again, why in the world are you looking at the past and that too from 200 yrs ago? can u pls make some relevant comments? we are talking abt india today! and in the future! pls don't spam!

[dsath]

[tscii:992a53f89c]
Finally, the history of the British would be incomplete without mentioning the positive side. The unification of India by a single language, although it is hoped that it will be eventually replaced by India's true language of the future, acceptable to all. The vast railway system, which more than anything else unified India. The remarkable Postal system, whose structures have survived till today. The roads network of India. [/tscii:992a53f89c]
They also left behind or rather we retained their system of adminstration (parliment and the civil services) and oh yes the law. Its nothing but a copy of Britian and not suitable for a country like India. If we are to make any real progress at the grass root level (not just on paper) we have to change into a more suitable system.
In spite of the sensex shooting to enormous level we still do have farmers taking their lives.

[goodsense]

Fire, I must reiterate. The future can't be in proper perspective without that of the past.

Since you are a young and new hubber here, I don't want to argue with you.

[Fire111999]

Fire, the fure can't be in proper perspective without that of the past.

Since you are a young and new hubber here, I don't want to argue with you.

that of more than 200 yrs ago? and why keep talking abt the past and not anything abt how it relates to the future at least? and why be so negative and say stuff like india is still being robbed materially (and i still don't understand what elevar means by that) when there is so much in current india that is so positive and has so much potential?

[Fire111999]

Elevar wrote:

"According to British records, one million Indians died of famine between 1800 and 1825, 4 million between 1825-1850, 5 million between 1850-1875 and 15 million between 1875-1900. Thus 25 million Indians died in 100 years !"

My ancestors from 1838 were well aware of these facts, the reason why they left India. My parents generation always say, if their ancestors did not leave, we wouldn't be here today. So regardless of what some people may think we have to thank God for our survival not that the British meant well for us. I wrote elsewhere the reason behidn them taking us out of India.

i repeat myself once again, why in the world are you looking at the past and that too from 200 yrs ago? can u pls make some relevant comments? we are talking abt india today! and in the future! pls don't spam!

oh, i'm sorry. i didn't mean to be so harsh. i was refering to elevar when i said don't spam and make relevant comments. i can't fault you for answering to his post. my eyes were a bit tired then (and now) and i didn't notice that this wasn't one of his posts as well.

i'm so sorry, once again.

[Eelavar]

Fire,

BE ABLE TO LOOK AT TODAY WITH THE WISDOM OF YESTERDAY.

[Fire111999]

Fire,

BE ABLE TO LOOK AT TODAY WITH THE WISDOM OF YESTERDAY.

fine! but i would appreciate it if u were to explain how they are relevant to the future of india instead of just talking abt the past!

[Eelavar]

My friend fire,

i do not know the past exactly as i should know to guess the future....

So frankly i know nothing about the future.
I'm even not an astrologer.

But i know that if we learn from our past it will help us for our present and our future...

[Fire111999]

i'm not asking u to predict the future. i'm asking u to tell me the applicable lessons that are to be learnt from the past instead of talking abt the past itself.

[Fire111999]

i spent hours reading through the posts and making what i felt ere reasonable comments to them and i would appreciate some comments on them. i find it extremely irritating that you can just post some passage on the history of india and totally divert the topic. and i wish you would stop being so negative! there is so much to be positive abt!

[Fire111999]

doesn't anyone in this forum care abt this?

[Fire111999]

doesn't anyone in this forum care abt this?hellooooooooooo, anybody there?

[crazy]

ther should be another option
india is a between both! india is poor but also a growing rich country!
india has one of the richest persons on the earth, india is country consuming more gold than anyone else on this earth!

rich remains rich
poor remains poor
someone really makes themself rich from poor, but thats one in million!

[Fire111999]

no, actually, most of india's population is middle class. but what is the meaning of middle class. they are the ones who have the most ambition and drive to achieve stuff. so the way i see it, india is on the way up! but i agree that india's not a rich country yet, in monetary terms. but it's culture is very rich, though it is at risk of plunging deeply!

[crazy]

india as a country as whole is getting rich, its getting international attention not b'coz of its richness or culture.
its developing, even countries like norway starts to have good view over india!

the only thing i feel sorry is even though indians r good and genies, the educated society of india prefer living abroad and contributes other countries development and not their own country - india!
i wish indians helped developing india rather contributing other countries!

[Lambretta]

india as a country as whole is getting rich, its getting international attention not b'coz of its richness or culture.
Tats true. Infact this hardly exists in the minds of today's globalising Indian society! :(


the only thing i feel sorry is even though indians r good and genies, the educated society of india prefer living abroad and contributes other countries development and not their own country - india!i wish indians helped developing india rather contributing other countries!
Wat u say is very correct, crazy! This is one reason y I feel indifferent & even skeptical towards the excitement abt India developing, Indian economy booming etc.! If India is really developing at this point of time, how come ther r still numerous ppl. who r desperate to go abroad for jobs &/or send their children to study (& thereafter settle) abroad, claiming 'better oppurtunities' exist for Indians abroad.....& thus contributing to the 'brain drain' in India? Y shud this be the case if India is really developing?! Its high time our ppl. rethink on this...
Of course many claim tat many NRIs r coming back to India & investing in India from abroad etc.....but my qsn. is.....if India really is developing quickly, y is being an NRI still considered a status symbol in our society?!
So tat makes this whole craze (excuse pun! :)) abt India developing self-contradictory!

[Fire111999]

how come ther r still numerous ppl. who r desperate to go abroad for jobs &/or send their children to study (& thereafter settle) abroad, claiming 'better oppurtunities' exist for Indians abroad.....& thus contributing to the 'brain drain' in India?

pple who r still leaving like that are not contributing to the brain drain, IMO!


y is being an NRI still considered a status symbol in our society?!

is it? i always feel tt i have a lot to learn from and admire in indians in india.

[crazy]

india as a country as whole is getting rich, its getting international attention not b'coz of its richness or culture.
Tats true. Infact this hardly exists in the minds of today's globalising Indian society! :(


the only thing i feel sorry is even though indians r good and genies, the educated society of india prefer living abroad and contributes other countries development and not their own country - india!i wish indians helped developing india rather contributing other countries!
Wat u say is very correct, crazy! This is one reason y I feel indifferent & even skeptical towards the excitement abt India developing, Indian economy booming etc.! If India is really developing at this point of time, how come ther r still numerous ppl. who r desperate to go abroad for jobs &/or send their children to study (& thereafter settle) abroad, claiming 'better oppurtunities' exist for Indians abroad.....& thus contributing to the 'brain drain' in India? Y shud this be the case if India is really developing?! Its high time our ppl. rethink on this...
Of course many claim tat many NRIs r coming back to India & investing in India from abroad etc.....but my qsn. is.....if India really is developing quickly, y is being an NRI still considered a status symbol in our society?!
So tat makes this whole craze (excuse pun! :)) abt India developing self-contradictory!


lamby u r right! iam not an indian but i love india more than anyone else on this earth could do!
i terrible feel sorry the way indian act in foreign country, the importance is not that u educate india trough yoga, meditation etc etc, its much important that u develop ur country.sorry mine too- inida!
they invest in india only b'coz of MONEY not b'coz of their faith and patriotism to india! they r most egoistic than anybody! NRI...........................hm how hard is that for u do cancel ur citizenship in foreign country???????????????????

[Lambretta]

pple who r still leaving like that are not contributing to the brain drain, IMO!
OK maybe not ALL of them....but, as crazy said, most of the educated higher strata of society want to go abroad & contribute to the development of nearly ne other country in the world but their own!


is it? i always feel tt i have a lot to learn from and admire in indians in india.
OTOH, many of them feel They hav a lot to learn & admire in Indians out of India! :wink: :)

[crazy]

pple who r still leaving like that are not contributing to the brain drain, IMO!
OK maybe not ALL of them....but, as crazy said, most of the educated higher strata of society want to go abroad & contribute to the development of nearly ne other country in the world but their own!



its a qts of time, give an educated indian visa and passport.......................bye bye leaving india at once! i really do wonder how many indians really feel its their duty to help/contribute developing india!
i know that i cant expect every indian..............there r poor ppl too! they dont even have thoughts about tommorrows sunrise! but what about educated society.................?????????
i dont say that getting higher studies abroad as a matter of patriotism, but those who study, get a job, settle abroad!

[Fire111999]

lamby u r right! iam not an indian but i love india more than anyone else on this earth could do!
i terrible feel sorry the way indian act in foreign country, the importance is not that u educate india trough yoga, meditation etc etc, its much important that u develop ur country.sorry mine too- inida!
they invest in india only b'coz of MONEY not b'coz of their faith and patriotism to india! they r most egoistic than anybody! NRI...........................hm how hard is that for u do cancel ur citizenship in foreign country???????????????????

i don't think i totally understand that. but i can say for myself and my family that we are still indian citizens, and we have paid and are still paying heavily for that. as we don't want to get a singapore citizenship, we pay more school fees, and we don't get so many privileges that singaporeans get. i'm in cambridge and i'm not on a scholarship cos i would have had to change to singaporean citizenship if i wanted to get a scholarship from singapore. we are indians and we are proud of it and we don't want to change.

my dad does business in india as well. so he's investing in india and profiting from that. but if we were only thinking abt money, we would have become singapore citizens a long time back! so you can't really generalise NRIs like that!

[Lambretta]

i terrible feel sorry the way indian act in foreign country, the importance is not that u educate india trough yoga, meditation etc etc, its much important that u develop ur country.sorry mine too- inida!
Even Yoga, meditation etc. r being promoted as a growing cash-in business rather than part of our culture!
Ppl. (many even in India) treat Yoga, meditation etc. more as a means of physical relaxation rather than knowing its real purpose!


they invest in india only b'coz of MONEY not b'coz of their faith and patriotism to india! they r most egoistic than anybody! NRI...........................hm how hard is that for u do cancel ur citizenship in foreign country???????????????????
Its bcos of our own ppl. in India who give too much value to those employed abroad- they always say tat 'n' no. of ppl. in IT/software cos., 'n' no. of doctors in the US r Indians....! They dont realise tat the popular demand of Indians abroad is not bcos of their technical genius & not least their culture/values but bcos they r willing to work harder than the locals of those countries even for lower pay than the locals'!
Tomorrow if they find similar talent at an even cheaper price in China or sum other developing country, then the 'value' given to Indians is bound to go crashing down instantly!

[Fire111999]

oh, and i want to add sth. by doing business in india, my dad is also providing jobs for indians and he is helping the indian economy (in a very small way) as well. so he's not just talking away from india. it's a win-win situation!

[Fire111999]

They dont realise tat the popular demand of Indians abroad is not bcos of their technical genius & not least their culture/values but bcos they r willing to work harder than the locals of those countries even for lower pay than the locals'!
Tomorrow if they find similar talent at an even cheaper price in China or sum other developing country, then the 'value' given to Indians is bound to go crashing down instantly!

no no. i'll never agree to tt. it is mainly becos of their technical genius. though also cos they are willing to work harder. but i've seen indians who get paid a lot and they don't really work harder cos they don't need to cos they're smarter.

[Lambretta]

i dont say that getting higher studies abroad as a matter of patriotism, but those who study, get a job, settle abroad!
Yes I keep asking many of my friends in the US also abt their career plans....they say tat by & large they do want to return to India but if they get a job ther they wudnt mind staying back (altho they do add 'for a few yrs atleast').......our ppl. shud see how Indians applying for student visas face a tough time at the consulates here....I've seen & even heard of many of them getting rejected as 'potential immigrants'.....the INS views them more as a threat to their country's employment oppurtunities for their own ppl.!
So they r very stringent abt issuing visas bcos of the likeliness of students (& in sum cases even visitors!) eventuallty getting tempted to take up jobs there & eventually settle down ther itself!

[crazy]

They dont realise tat the popular demand of Indians abroad is not bcos of their technical genius & not least their culture/values but bcos they r willing to work harder than the locals of those countries even for lower pay than the locals'!
Tomorrow if they find similar talent at an even cheaper price in China or sum other developing country, then the 'value' given to Indians is bound to go crashing down instantly!

thats so true, yrs ago norwegians asked for help from pakistan(just an instance) and now they very very cheaper labor from poland!
u cant believe norwegians pay only 20 kr per hour to the contrary of paying 125 kr to average ppl in norwy!

and FIRE iam feeling proud of ur family! iam not blaming u, neither ur family.

[Fire111999]

and FIRE iam feeling proud of ur family! iam not blaming u, neither ur family.

no crazy, it's not just abt my family. i'm sure there are so many more indians like this out there!

[Lambretta]

no no. i'll never agree to tt. it is mainly becos of their technical genius.
Oh c'mon fire, dont believe all tat our ppl. say abt NRIs (bcos of their own ignorance!)......wudnt it be easier for US cos. to find tat technical genius in Americans themselves?? Didnt Bill Gates create microsoft even tho he was a Univ. dropout?! Sumone of his level wudnt hav to graduate from an IIT or in SW/CS engg. to be considered a genius!
So y r cos. like Microsoft giving more importance to Comp. Engrs. w. BE/Btech degrees from India? :)

[crazy]

i dont say that getting higher studies abroad as a matter of patriotism, but those who study, get a job, settle abroad!
Yes I keep asking many of my friends in the US also abt their career plans....they say tat by & large they do want to return to India but if they get a job ther they wudnt mind staying back (altho they do add 'for a few yrs atleast').......our ppl. shud see how Indians applying for student visas face a tough time at the consulates here....I've seen & even heard of many of them getting rejected as 'potential immigrants'.....the INS views them more as a threat to their country's employment oppurtunities for their own ppl.!


i know iam pathetic, but i always believe in self respect if some one doesnt respect me then i will never respest them back, specially those americans they feel thet r superior! i would never settle in a country like US.............if u ask a US indian he/she will denies, but thats the truth! i promise at once i finished my study i will return to india or tamil eelam! my country need me more than norway, even if i work in norway that wont be for ever!

[crazy]

and FIRE iam feeling proud of ur family! iam not blaming u, neither ur family.

no crazy, it's not just abt my family. i'm sure there are so many more indians like this out there!

as i said...............one in million!

[Fire111999]

no no. i'll never agree to tt. it is mainly becos of their technical genius.
Oh c'mon fire, dont believe all tat our ppl. say abt NRIs (bcos of their own ignorance!)......wudnt it be easier for US cos. to find tat technical genius in Americans themselves?? Didnt Bill Gates create microsoft even tho he was a Univ. dropout?! Sumone of his level wudnt hav to graduate from an IIT or in SW/CS engg. to be considered a genius!
So y r cos. like Microsoft giving more importance to Comp. Engrs. w. BE/Btech degrees from India? :)

cos indians work smart. half the time IT guys don't do any work. that's cos they can do their work in such a short time.

and also, the indian mentality is different. they place their career as one of their top priorities. but americans place a lot more importance on leisure etc. so this causes their work to go below their abilities. and indians are forever trying to improve themselves while an american will take a year off to go round the world, or to do sth else that has been his wish for a long time.

[Lambretta]

and FIRE iam feeling proud of ur family! iam not blaming u, neither ur family.

no crazy, it's not just abt my family. i'm sure there are so many more indians like this out there!
Neither am I criticising ur family, Fire.....if tats wat u felt.
& yea ther r many more Indians like ur family out ther.....but sorry u def. cant say tat ALL NRIs r like u, not even 1/2 of them, to be honest!
cos otherwise ther wudnt be such a high influx of Indians migrating abroad!

[Fire111999]

and FIRE iam feeling proud of ur family! iam not blaming u, neither ur family.

no crazy, it's not just abt my family. i'm sure there are so many more indians like this out there!

as i said...............one in million!

i'm sure it's not as bad as that. well, i'm hoping anyways.

[Fire111999]

and FIRE iam feeling proud of ur family! iam not blaming u, neither ur family.

no crazy, it's not just abt my family. i'm sure there are so many more indians like this out there!
Neither am I criticising ur family, Fire.....if tats wat u felt.
& yea ther r many more Indians like ur family out ther.....but sorry u def. cant say tat ALL NRIs r like u, not even 1/2 of them, to be honest!
cos otherwise ther wudnt be such a high influx of Indians migrating abroad!

no, i was just giving an example. and another example is this tata guy i met. he's being transferred to the uk to establish a research centre here among other things. and his son refused to accompany him here. this shows taht there are pple who want to stay in india!

[Lambretta]

the indian mentality is different. they place their career as one of their top priorities. but americans place a lot more importance on leisure etc. so this causes their work to go below their abilities. and indians are forever trying to improve themselves while an american will take a year off to go round the world, or to do sth else that has been his wish for a long time.
Yes, cos Indians r smart enuff to know tat if they try to take time off like the locals do, they will hav to say goodbye to their jobs (& their NRI status! :wink: )......y wud an American citizen hav tat fear?
Even if he loses this job, he wudnt mind going for ne arbitrary job, even a lower level one...!
Neways, wat I was trying to say is tat its Indians who r hugely dependant on the US/foriegn countries in this regard, not the other way round as our ppl. here tend to project it!

[crazy]

cos indians work smart. half the time IT guys don't do any work. that's cos they can do their work in such a short time.
and also, the indian mentality is different. they place their career as one of their top priorities. but americans place a lot more importance on leisure etc. so this causes their work to go below their abilities. and indians are forever trying to improve themselves while an american will take a year off to go round the world, or to do sth else that has been his wish for a long time.

no b'coz of mentality, its b'coz of its easier to get/put work on indians! and also indians r really intrested in making money, safeguarding their job also(its not putting down, its a compliment)but at the same time they love their work as well!

[Lambretta]

no, i was just giving an example. and another example is this tata guy i met. he's being transferred to the uk to establish a research centre here among other things. and his son refused to accompany him here. this shows taht there are pple who want to stay in india!
But even u agreed tat this is in most cases bcos of the career oppurtunities offered mainly thru globalisation, rather than the patriotism or true luv for India, leave alone intention of developing it!

Btw, fire, if I might ask- u said ur still Indian citizens......so do ur folks hav ne intentions of returning to India (in the near future) then?

[Fire111999]

no, i was just giving an example. and another example is this tata guy i met. he's being transferred to the uk to establish a research centre here among other things. and his son refused to accompany him here. this shows taht there are pple who want to stay in india!
But even u agreed tat this is in most cases bcos of the career oppurtunities offered mainly thru globalisation, rather than the patriotism or true luv for India, leave alone intention of developing it!

but it could be too. i mean, india's only coming up now. it hasn't reached the stage of america yet. but yet, the guy still wants to stay in india.

and abt developing india, most of the talk by the tata steel managing director was abt getting indians back to india. and he was talking abt india in general. he actually said that it doesn't have to be in tata. he said, just come back to india. but he was in particular talking abt the potential of the manufacturing industry in india.

[Fire111999]

Btw, fire, if I might ask- u said ur still Indian citizens......so do ur folks hav ne intentions of returning to India (in the near future) then?

not possible in the near future. my sis and i are still studying. and my sis has a 3 yr bond in singapore after she finishes her degree. my dad's got his business in singapore and germany. but my dad does go to india like nearly every month cos of his business there. and we visit india every year during our hols. and i'm really trying hard to get industrial attachments in india during my hols and i hope to work in india after i graduate (as does my sis) but that will be like 3 yrs later for me. cos i'm still in my first year of engineering.

[Lambretta]

and abt developing india, most of the talk by the tata steel managing director was abt getting indians back to india. and he was talking abt india in general. he actually said that it doesn't have to be in tata. he said, just come back to india. but he was in particular talking abt the potential of the manufacturing industry in india.
Well, tat sounds a bit positive....hopefully many of the Indians wud feel the same....ie. if they cud get to kill the Green Card kadhal virus!
Atleast those in the US.....wich is the largest haven for migrating Indians!

[Fire111999]

cos indians work smart. half the time IT guys don't do any work. that's cos they can do their work in such a short time.
and also, the indian mentality is different. they place their career as one of their top priorities. but americans place a lot more importance on leisure etc. so this causes their work to go below their abilities. and indians are forever trying to improve themselves while an american will take a year off to go round the world, or to do sth else that has been his wish for a long time.

no b'coz of mentality, its b'coz of its easier to get/put work on indians! and also indians r really intrested in making money, safeguarding their job also(its not putting down, its a compliment)but at the same time they love their work as well!

yeah, i agree. bill gates does as well, but he's one of the exceptions among americans.

[Lambretta]

not possible in the near future. my sis and i are still studying. and my sis has a 3 yr bond in singapore after she finishes her degree. my dad's got his business in singapore and germany. but my dad does go to india like nearly every month cos of his business there. and we visit india every year during our hols. and i'm really trying hard to get industrial attachments in india during my hols and i hope to work in india after i graduate (as does my sis) but that will be like 3 yrs later for me. cos i'm still in my first year of engineering.
Neways, good to know tat ur still willing to work here in future.....! Good Luck in ur endeavours! :D

[gaddeswarup]

Just saw the review of "Development with dignity" by Amit Bhaduri in Frontline:
http://www.flonnet.com/fl2307/stories/20060421000407400.htm
The reviewer thinks that Bhaduri's ideas are in the right direction. If anybody has read the book, I would like to know their views on Bhaduri's suggestions.