Was India right...Or was Pakistan??

[ssanjinika]

Moderators..If you feel that this topic would disturb the forum's peace and escalate into unwanted sludge throwing by people please feel free to delete this topic.I wasnt sure and just wanted an honest,unbiased discussion about the situation between India and Pakistan.


Before starting I just want to say...
I sincerly hope that the people affected by the horrendous earthquake in Pakistan find strength to help them get through this time.They are innocent souls who need all help humanity can offer to get through this difficult period .


Almost 30000 people died in Pakistan as a result of the devastating earthquake which shook the country on the morning of Sunday OCtober 9th.Various countries from all accross the globe rushed in with aid.Not to be left behind,the Indian Prime Minister called the Pakistani General and offered aid.The offer though appreciated was refused by the General because of "sensitivities involved".India and Pakistan afterall go back a long way ,share quite a bit of history and really fought as one nation for independence.Now my question is ...was India right in offering aid?Was it offered with honest intentions and what about Pakistan refusing aid from India?Its obvious that they need it and we are in a position to offer afterall we did refuse aid from the world and handled a natural calamity which almost wiped out few of our territories very well on our own.
Your views on this...

[nirosha sen]

In a disputed territory, sensitive military matters could be at stake to prevent Indian authorities to trespass, which is why they could have refused the aid.

Either way, they are on their own here, despite helping hands from abroad. In a rugged terrain, like the Vale of Kashmir, hostile conditions from weather and landscape alone is their worst enemy. :(

[Sandeep]

ssanjinika,

Can you please confirm your source for pakistan's refusal. Just curious :)

[nilavupriyan]

Moderators..If you feel that this topic would disturb the forum's peace and escalate into unwanted sludge throwing by people please feel free to delete this topic.I wasnt sure and just wanted an honest,unbiased discussion about the situation between India and Pakistan.


Before starting I just want to say...
I sincerly hope that the people affected by the horrendous earthquake in Pakistan find strength to help them get through this time.They are innocent souls who need all help humanity can offer to get through this difficult period .


Almost 30000 people died in Pakistan as a result of the devastating earthquake which shook the country on the morning of Sunday OCtober 9th.Various countries from all accross the globe rushed in with aid.Not to be left behind,the Indian Prime Minister called the Pakistani General and offered aid.The offer though appreciated was refused by the General because of "sensitivities involved".India and Pakistan afterall go back a long way ,share quite a bit of history and really fought as one nation for independence.Now my question is ...was India right in offering aid?Was it offered with honest intentions and what about Pakistan refusing aid from India?Its obvious that they need it and we are in a position to offer afterall we did refuse aid from the world and handled a natural calamity which almost wiped out few of our territories very well on our own.
Your views on this...

India refused from all.They refuse from India only.

There is no wrong in it.Thats their right to get or not get.I feel his decision is bit right.Considering that kashmir issue has not ended...they might have plan to have a war at any time .So its hard for them to get an aid from a nation which they may attack at anytime.

its just to avoid the gratefulness that they will have to feel if india help them.Nothing wrong .... :wink:

[Sandeep]

The Hindu report

Islamabad on Monday said it would receive relief goods from India.

Pakistan Foreign Office spokesperson, Ms. Tasneem Aslam, told The Hindu here: ``Yes. We have indicated our requirements to New Delhi and relief materials would begin coming from there from tomorrow onwards.''

However, it maintained that there was no "possibility" of joint relief and rescue operations with India on the plea that the Line of Control (LoC) was not inhabited.

It appears India offered to lend the services of a few helicopters as well as experts to help in the rescue of stranded people but Pakistan did not accept the suggestion.

[ssanjinika]

http://in.news.yahoo.com/051011/43/60ioy.html

Another milestone in the India Pakistan relationship.
The past couple of years have been good for both the countries.I do def feel we are making progress in the relationship.

[svasu_ani]

[tscii:32fce8003b]India aid reaches Pakistan

An Indian Air Force cargo plane has delivered 25 tonnes of relief supplies in Pakistan’s capital Islamabad.

It was the first Indian aid plane to land there since the 1971 India-Pakistan war.

Saturday's earthquake killed many thousands and devastated the northeastern parts of the country, including occupied Kashmir.

http://www.ndtv.com/morenews/showmorestory.asp?category=National&slug=Indian+aid+reach+Pakistan&id=79892[/tscii:32fce8003b]

[aravindhan]

http://in.news.yahoo.com/051011/43/60ioy.html

Another milestone in the India Pakistan relationship.
The past couple of years have been good for both the countries.I do def feel we are making progress in the relationship.
And today, Indian soldiers have crossed the LoC to help Pakistani soldiers rebuild military bunkers destroyed by the earthquake.

I never thought I'd live to see this day! The optimist in me now even hopes that we may see a South Asian Union along the lines of the EU someday...

[visu]

Now there is fighting between militants and indian army in kashmir.
Even the EarthQuake is not changing the situation.

[j.chenkalvarayan]

http://in.news.yahoo.com/051011/43/60ioy.html

Another milestone in the India Pakistan relationship.
The past couple of years have been good for both the countries.I do def feel we are making progress in the relationship.
And today, Indian soldiers have crossed the LoC to help Pakistani soldiers rebuild military bunkers destroyed by the earthquake.

I never thought I'd live to see this day! The optimist in me now even hopes that we may see a South Asian Union along the lines of the EU someday...

keep dreaming aravindhan . there can never be a permanent solution to kashmir problem. what do you think the militants are fighting for? they won't be satisfied even if we cede kashmir to them. their main target is the red fort . they want to create instability in our country which is never going to happen. they see kashmir as a mere passage to india. ttheir ulterior motive is to destabilize india.

[Badri]

It is quite ridiculous that while helicopters are the only options left to get survivors to safety, and India is the nearest source of such choppers, and India is ready and willing to fly them down to help, Pakistan is asking for choppers without crew!!!

What do they expect? The choppers will fly on their own? Auto-pilot perhaps? Or would they expect us to meekly handover our helicopters to UN personnel, or worse, to the Pakistani Air Force?

One can understand the sensitivity of the issues involved, but India in offering to assist has also had to consider those very same sensitivities. And that has not prevented India from still offering help.

Now, Jan Egeland has called on both the countires, to come to a compromise! There is no need for a compromise of any sorts. After all, it is absurd for Pakistan to still be laying down terms and conditions, considering their overwhelming need for succour.

I sincerely hope the Indian government would not bend to the humanitarian angle that would no doubt be brought up in the negotiations. The same humanitarian angle applies to Pakistan too, and more so, given they need the help from us, and not the other way round.

[Sandeep]

The whole idea of Indian military choppers itself is absurd.

Pakistan cannot allow Indian military to to have a practise run over their terittory and India cannot afford to let them test fly Indian choppers.

While the Earthquake has opened an oppurtuinity for better coorperation between the nations we shouldnt be overenthusiatic and destroy the chances.

Whatever happening now is purely political whether India given help or Pakistan refusing/accepting and the humanitarian aspect is no where to be seen.

[Cindy]

Hope you all watched the BBC special interview with the Pak president and the Indian defence minister. where the president said there were not a single attack of terror from pakistan till this date, and when the interviewer again stressed on the point, he said, "why do you believe them.. you believe me there wasn't any" he even said if it was India in this phase, would've rejected the cargo offer too... He said he always wanted a solution for the kashmir issue, had proposed many a suggestions to Mr. Manmohan singh, but he was never given a reply.. etc etc..... unlike many interviews before, president looked a bit restless and sharp this time...

Where the Indian defence minister remarked that an earthquake cannot wipe of 58 years of history when asked about LOC.

do you guys really believe there is any light for hope here????

[Cindy]

Whatever happening now is purely political whether India given help or Pakistan refusing/accepting and the humanitarian aspect is no where to be seen.

Exactly...

[ssanjinika]

Found this article in The Hindu today

http://www.hindu.com/thehindu/holnus/000200510241001.htm?headline=Pak.~students~overwhe lmed~by~India~visit

I believe most Indians as well as Pakistanis just want to be left alone and in peace. We dont want anymore fighting.The world is moving fwd and its time to help each other move along with the rest of the world.The politicians should also be thinking of that.Live and Let live should be the motto of the day!

[rajivlodha]

The world is moving forward

Absolutely, I totaly agree with you, US moved forward and got Afghan and Iraq (and looking forward for Iran), China got Tibet and HK, and so should be done by Indian as well, we can go forward on Pakistan, (We should offer help to Mr. Bush when he plans to attack Pakistan :twisted: )

PEACE? Why PEACE, seems we Indians hold a copyrights on PEACE, no one talks for peace except us, why? Peace can be prevailed only with one those who wants peace, its have been 48+ years we are shouting PEACE PEACE, and what do we have, 2 wars, Kargil and a wrecked map of INDIA. :evil:

Take a look on the map, we have lost 50% of kashmir, and if we do not take any actions, we will loose North East as well.

http://archives.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/asiapcf/south/01/29/india.quake.02/map.india.bhuj.ahmedabad.gif


We are now a Nuclear power, thanks to Mr Vajpayee, as after that blast, companies like Microsoft, IBM, CISCO, Nokia are doing business with us.

Its a misbelive that they are coming here because India has got some talents, well, we were intelligent before 10 years as well, its just because we have now something which we can use for Defence (or offence), so they feel secure now, atleast a war wont start easily. Mind you, US leads because it has got POWER, there is nothing to do with P.E.A.C.E :!:

[Sandeep]

I believe most Indians as well as Pakistanis just want to be left alone and in peace. We dont want anymore fighting.The world is moving fwd and its time to help each other move along with the rest of the world.The politicians should also be thinking of that.Live and Let live should be the motto of the day!

No one wants war but are Indian ready to give Kashmir Freedom or gift it to pakistan. I dont think we are.

Are pakistanese ready to forget about Kashmir. I dont think they are ready too.

[j.chenkalvarayan]

http://in.rediff.com/news/2005/oct/30dilip.htm

please read this.

[sivajayan]

We are now a Nuclear power, thanks to Mr Vajpayee, ...

What do you think how long it takes to devolope this bomb? How long was Vajpayee reigning? Perhaps the whole knowledge is bought from Khan of Pakistan like Iran, Lybia, North-Korea? Who knows?

[rajivlodha]

Perhaps the whole knowledge is bought from Khan of Pakistan

Good Joke buddy :lol:

Although pakistan is notorious for computer virus, training and supporting millitants / terroirsts for anti-human acts, funding operations like 9/11, london bombs and recent delhi attacks, but nuclear technology is something else. if you remember, india did something towards this technology in late 70's, please take a look -

http://nuclearweaponarchive.org/India/IndiaFirstBomb.html

So you see, India was working on this technology back in 1960, besides Nuclear Weapons or BOMBS, India had also setup some Nuclear Reactors (around 18, only 2/3 are active) which can be used for good purpose like Electricity and in other fields of Science & Technology, and Pakistan can never think about this, I heard that in pakistan, you get 5 bullets for one Roti :lol: .

And, I hope you know the recent collaboration between India & United States, ever wondered why Pakistan was not there first choice, as they are nuclear power as well (this is what they say).

The reasons is simple, because what India did, was on its own, but Pakistan got some help from one of India's neighbouring country, no one can perform a nuke-test on its own, within 7 days buddy.

What do you think how long it takes to devolope this bomb?

I am not concerned about the bomb, there is nothing which money cannot buy, I am talking about the technology dear. Now we can create as many as we want, depends on how much we will use in the near future. :wink:

[sivajayan]

Perhaps the whole knowledge is bought from Khan of Pakistan

Good Joke buddy :lol:

Although pakistan is notorious for computer virus, training and supporting millitants / terroirsts for anti-human acts, funding operations like 9/11, london bombs and recent delhi attacks, but nuclear technology is something else. if you remember, india did something towards this technology in late 70's, please take a look -

http://nuclearweaponarchive.org/India/IndiaFirstBomb.html

So you see, India was working on this technology back in 1960, besides Nuclear Weapons or BOMBS, India had also setup some Nuclear Reactors (around 18, only 2/3 are active) which can be used for good purpose like Electricity and in other fields of Science & Technology, and Pakistan can never think about this, I heard that in pakistan, you get 5 bullets for one Roti :lol: .

And, I hope you know the recent collaboration between India & United States, ever wondered why Pakistan was not there first choice, as they are nuclear power as well (this is what they say).

The reasons is simple, because what India did, was on its own, but Pakistan got some help from one of India's neighbouring country, no one can perform a nuke-test on its own, within 7 days buddy.

What do you think how long it takes to devolope this bomb?

I am not concerned about the bomb, there is nothing which money cannot buy, I am talking about the technology dear. Now we can create as many as we want, depends on how much we will use in the near future. :wink:

I only wanted to point out that it was not vajpayee, dear! Or do you want to say that he had been reigning since the late 70s?
And furthermore you don't need to develope the Bomp in order to use the atomic power for electricity purposes. You only need 5% uran enrichment for this and for the bomb you need 95%. Iran is some where between 56 and 65. Lybia gave up its plans already and North-Korea is currently giving it up.

I only hope the bomb is not the garland on a monkey's hands! My Mom spoke often kurangkin kai puumaalai when I spoiled something.

[rajivlodha]

I only wanted to point out that it was not vajpayee,

- Then who it was ? Padamshree lalu prasad yadav?

Or do you want to say that he had been reigning since the late 70s?

Although he was not reigning from late 70s, but he managed to acheive what others failed :roll:

For me, its important who achieved the stuff rather than who started it, because if this was done in 70s, India would have been something else .... :!:

[Sandeep]

Thanks Rajiv for that excellent link.

But as we all know and mentioned in the link you provided, it was Indira Gandhi who lead India's first nuclear test in 18 May, 1974 and not A.B.Vajpayee.

Vajpayeeji deserves credit for the 1998 tests and making India a full fledged nuclear armed state. He also deserves credit for induction of nuclear weapons to the Indian Army.

[sivajayan]

The merit should go to those who forsee the future first. As they had China and USSR as atomic powers as threats just in front of the gate.

And what are you going to do with your A-Bombs? Use it? Where? Against whom? On Indian soil? Why do you thing that the West and the East did not destroy and delete each other though they were engaged in cold war? Do you know anything about Cuba-Crisis.

soodu kaNda puunai aduppangkaraiyai theedaathu! And India will once get burnt, I am quite sure!

[rajivlodha]

West and the East ...

Who cares, we are in the center (not waste, not yeast :lol: )

And what are you going to do with your A-Bombs?

We sell them on ebay.com or amazon.com 8-)

soodu kaNda puunai aduppangkaraiyai theedaathu! :?:

anyone cares to translate ..

Do you know anything about Cuba-Crisis.

No, dont blame me, USSR and USA are to be held responsible for that.

And India will once get burnt, I am quite sure!

Just once ? If we keep neglecting our "goody goody" neighbours, we will be burnt forever.

[sivajayan]

West and the East ...
Who cares, we are in the center (not waste, not yeast :lol: )
The Best or the Rest?



And what are you going to do with your A-Bombs?

We sell them on ebay.com or amazon.com 8-)
Good one :thumbsup: What about the postage and delivery?


soodu kaNda puunai aduppangkaraiyai theedaathu! :?:

anyone cares to translate ..
I don't know the analog proverb in english but it means if a cat gets burnt once then it will never search for a cooker a second time.
If someone makes a bad experience by something then he/she will never go for it once again.


Do you know anything about Cuba-Crisis.

No, dont blame me, USSR and USA are to be held responsible for that.

I agree you know something about it. Chrustchow, Kennedy and Castro were responsible.


And India will once get burnt, I am quite sure!

Just once ? If we keep neglecting our "goody goody" neighbours, we will be burnt forever. Yes, only once. Hiroshima and Nagasaki must be enough for ever. Not burnt, India will be "shining" there after.

[polka dot]

Moderators..If you feel that this topic would disturb the forum's peace and escalate into unwanted sludge throwing by people please feel free to delete this topic.I wasnt sure and just wanted an honest,unbiased discussion about the situation between India and Pakistan.


Before starting I just want to say...
I sincerly hope that the people affected by the horrendous earthquake in Pakistan find strength to help them get through this time.They are innocent souls who need all help humanity can offer to get through this difficult period .


Almost 30000 people died in Pakistan as a result of the devastating earthquake which shook the country on the morning of Sunday OCtober 9th.Various countries from all accross the globe rushed in with aid.Not to be left behind,the Indian Prime Minister called the Pakistani General and offered aid.The offer though appreciated was refused by the General because of "sensitivities involved".India and Pakistan afterall go back a long way ,share quite a bit of history and really fought as one nation for independence.Now my question is ...was India right in offering aid?Was it offered with honest intentions and what about Pakistan refusing aid from India?Its obvious that they need it and we are in a position to offer afterall we did refuse aid from the world and handled a natural calamity which almost wiped out few of our territories very well on our own.
Your views on this...

it mostly lies on looking good infront of the international community, if India had not offered help that would have been another controversy. however, the idea is that India and Pakisan are making in the Peace process and to take aid from India could have had negative implications. with the earthqauke there is more communication between the two countries which is good...they are nearer to, dare i say it, resovling the kashmir issue.

but the problem of that lies with the kashmiri people. they are not satisfied with either of pakistan's or india's actions. they have been left out of the polictial debate and forgotten about. it's all about the land (not so much the people), either india gets whole of kahsmir or pakistan gets the whole of kashmir, or neither gets it, because they are not willing to split....so still a long process to peace.

suppose the most we can do at this time is give generously to the people affected by the earthquake. winters here and things are said to have gotten worse...its such a sad state :cry:

[rajivlodha]

the idea is that India and Pakisan are making in the Peace process

from 1947 to 2005, 58 years has been passed, I hope this will continue for another 42 years and then a new stamp will be released on 2047 for "100 years of Peace Process".

..with the earthqauke there is more communication between the two countries which is good

Yes, Pakistan saved a lot of Indian money by refusing Aids from India :wink:

but the problem of that lies with the kashmiri people. they are not satisfied with either of pakistan's or india's actions

Yes, they have been suffering from 58 years.

either india gets whole of kahsmir or pakistan gets the whole of kashmir, or neither gets it, because they are not willing to split....so still a long process to peace.

Hmm, India is to get the whole of kashmir, maybe with some interests :wink: Split? Huh :evil:

If we lay down on this issue then we must be ready for Khalistan, Arunachal Pradesh and many many more.... we are 100 crores, we need more land, we cannot afford any more charity please.

suppose the most we can do at this time is give generously to the people affected by the earthquake. winters here and things are said to have gotten worse...its such a sad state

Yes, we should all forget about what had happend from last 58 years for this state, the amount of money and life spent on this state, and we should start helping just like we did for people of gujrat and the tsunami victims. I hope the same is being done on Pakistan as well as 90% of the POK was destroyed. So I hope the Goverment of Pakistan will re-establish all the Kashmiris in POK and will continue helping them for there freedom fight.

Its not a sad state, its Heaven, for which both the countries are fighting. Saffron is cultivated over there, which is sold around 50k per killo. :o

[polka dot]

hmm. not sure what to think ^^ too much sarcasm. although i have no idea what background you are and what basis you make your comments.

would be good if you elaborated a little.

im new..

:S

[rajivlodha]

hmm. not sure what to think ^^ too much sarcasm

Its not for you, dont take it personally, I am just trying to change the way we used to think, before its too late.

what basis you make your comments.

Media, mainly through internet, news channels, and news websites from around the world, about india.

currently reading -

http://bangladesh-web.com/news/view.php?hidDate=2005-03-08&hidType=EDT&hidRecord=0000000000000000036808


Background

Indian by birth.

[polka dot]

hmm. not sure what to think ^^ too much sarcasm

Its not for you, dont take it personally, I am just trying to change the way we used to think, before its too late.



and how did "we used to think"? and whats the thinking process now? :?

[j.chenkalvarayan]

i am with you rajiv lodha. i endorse every word of yours. its high time pakistan and china are taught lessons for all that they have done to india.

[Bebeto]

i am with you rajiv lodha. i endorse every word of yours. its high time pakistan and china are taught lessons for all that they have done to india.

I could predict a Mahabaratham if you were were the primeminister.

North of India completely contaminated, fantastic.

Before you start the war please send us all the fine chinese cooks to us to the south first.

[P_R]

I don't get one things about nuclear arms.

If I understand them right , they are unlike other weaponry in terms of the scope of damage they can cause. So (naturally) their area of operations are civilian targets (are there n.weapons that can be used at military targets alone ?).

If n.weapons are principally about civilian targets then the use of them is not justified under any circumstance. ANY. So they are (just) a means of deterrance isn't it ? But it would be an effective deterrant only against democratic regiemes , which bother (or at least are forced to bother) about civilian targets' vulnerability. So why is nuclear arsenal an important strategy against China and Pak ?

What am I missing here ?

[khodu]

I don't think any regime, whatever its theoretical structure, can ignore the fears of its subjects/citizens but still, the major issue with nuclear weapons, it seems to me, is that they guarantee a degree of economic damage from which the target country is not likely to recover soon.

the fact that they target civilians is no less true of the world war two air raids or the Gulf War bombing strategies of the USuk, which explicitely aimed at crippling civilian infrastructure. it is the scale of nuclear damage that is the difference, from a massive, targetted, attack the victim should not be able to even have a basic - second/third world - standard of living. it annihilates all progress upto that moment.

truly evil weaponry, contaminating the land for centuries, making victims of the children and grandchildren of victims, plaguiing a people for generations.

they guarantee pre-eminance to whatever country has the most robust infrastructure and command and control system, hence America and Britain's preoccupation with underground basis and contingency planning all throughout the coldwar. and why America expressed concern about the Indo-Pak nuclear possibilities (theoretically India could annihilate Pakistan and survive in some form afterwards, especially as the more theologically-driven fringes talked of "sacrificing millions" for the sake of total victory).

[aravindhan]

If I understand them right , they are unlike other weaponry in terms of the scope of damage they can cause. So (naturally) their area of operations are civilian targets (are there n.weapons that can be used at military targets alone ?).
You are thinking of strategic nuclear weapons. Tactical nuclear weapons are designed for use against smaller targets, which are primarily military in character, such as shielded "bomb proof" bunkers, communication or military production facilities, and so on. India's nuclear tests involved both strategic and tactical nuclear weapons, and I think our nuclear arsenal is believed to contain roughly equal quantities of both.


So they are (just) a means of deterrance isn't it ? But it would be an effective deterrant only against democratic regiemes , which bother (or at least are forced to bother) about civilian targets' vulnerability. So why is nuclear arsenal an important strategy against China and Pak ? What am I missing here ?

It is an important deterrant against China. Pakistan was not really a primary target of the Indian nuclear strategy, and an important reason for India's not going openly nuclear earlier was that it would force Pakistan to go nuclear too, thereby to some extent neutralising our rather significant advantage over them in conventional warfare. However, the Chinese border was starting to heat up very much in the mid 1990s, with incursions becoming extremely common, and the government of the time seems to have thought this more important that Pakistan. It worked - incursions have more or less stopped since we acquired nuclear weapons, and we have even reached a compromise with China under which they de facto recognised our possession of Arunachal Pradesh and Sikkim through the back-door route of opening customs posts on the border. It seems fairly unlikely to me that this would have happened without nuclear weapons.

The reasons why nuclear weapons work as a deterrent has been well analysed by the Nobel-prize winning economist Thomas Schelling, particularly in his book The Strategy of Conflict, which analysed the use of the nuclear deterrent in the Cold War. He compared the strategic use of nuclear weapons to a showdown between two cowboys in the wild west. If both knew that the other would, if shot, live just long enough to shoot back with fatal accuracy, neither will shoot.

This logic, as he demonstrated, applies regardless of whether the countries are ruled by democrats (as the US was, and India is) or dictatorships (as the USSR was, and China is). What is important is that the deterrent be strong enough to threaten vital centres (as India's bombs do), and that the countries value their own survival (as both India and China do).