Alternative medical Therapies: science or pseudo science?

[r_kk]

[tscii:3a7c926c75]India was/is one of the fertile grounds for alternative medicines. Even though we have very age old medical system of our own (Siddha, Ayurvedam), we had accepted new range of conventional and non-conventional medical systems from many countries and cultures. One of the highest controversial medical systems, that Indians commonly use, is homeopathy. Even though it has lost its grounds in its origin (Germany), it has flourished in India. Many state governments have Homeopathic medical colleges and hospitals with qualified Homeopatic doctors (with approved BHMS degree). India is one of the countries where every one is nearly half doctor and easily recommends medicines and consumes medicine on their own. Since homeopathic medicines are nearly harmless (whether it has any positive effect or not, that is the second question) to the patients, many quacks easily pick up this medical system and flourish with wealth. Such quacks are similar to astrologers discussing sophisticated civil engineering in the name of vaastu sastra. Any one can pick up and deceive the people.

Before discussing this alternate medical system in scientific point of view, I have to accept that many of my honest friends had told me that they had got cure using this system. So, at this moment, I am not able to reject this system entirely as placebo effect. In this thread, I am indenting to explain how this medical system does not confirm to proven science and why the patients should not fully depend on this system in case of serious illness. Any way, after all accepting or not accepting the above facts is highly depends on individuals experience and belief.

First, let me consolidate how homeopathy differs with basic science principle. I hope that most of you might be already aware…

Homeopathy medicine follows the following three basic philosophies..
1. an item which create similar symptoms of illness can cure the illness (like cure like)
2. Vigorous shaking during dilution more effective
3. Theory of infinite decimal (more dilution is more better)

Let me explain first about the dilution process…
30x: a substance were to be diluted 30 times (means one part medicine to 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 parts water)
200C: one part medicine in 10 ^^400 molecules of water (or 1 followed by 400 zeroes).

What is the meaning of "like cure like". Let me explain with two simple examples.
If Cobra’s poison lead to bleeding through skin other symptom like plague, then dilute the snake poison to 30X or 100X and give it to the Plague patient.

If Arsenic creates white patches in skin like Vitiligo(Lukoderma), then diluted arsenic solution (30X or 100X) may help the skin to restore the color.

This concept is the fundamental concept of Homeopathy.

Avogadro’s number: equal volume of any two gas under same temperature and pressure will have same number of molecules. If we accept conventional law, one single molecule can be found in 6.0221367x10^^23. That means any dilution beyond 12C or 24X may not have any original molecule at all. If we have to take even 1 molecule of real medicine in 30x medicine, really we have to drink 7,874 gallons of the solution. This would be roughly equivalent to a container 30 million times bigger than the Earth. (Mathematics below)

The above numbers are really threatening and make me skeptic about homeopathic medicines. There was a scientific verification program conducted by BBC using samples of homeopathic medicine and normal water. The tests were conducted on human tissues by two scientists who were not informed before about the nature of liquid they are testing (medicine or water). You will find the results are astonishing…

For more information…
http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/horizon/2002/homeopathy.shtml


Mathematic below:

Avogadro number 6.022*10^^23 mole in gram scale or Loschmidt’s Constant LC=2.686x10^^23 per m^^3.

1 molecule in n th centi-decimal dilution can be written as follows.
C(n) = (1 mol / 100 mol)^^n


So, to find one particle in 1000 particle of C30 homeopathic medicine (!), the volume of gas/liquid required can be written as

C(30)^^-1 / LC * 1/1000 = 3.722 x 10^^34 liters

So gallons of water required to make such medicine = 7.874 x10^^33


Dilution Factor Decimal Scale(1:10) Centesimal Scale(1:100)
1: 10 1x
1: 100 2x 1c
1: 1000 3x
1: 10000 4x 2c
1: 100000 5x
1: 1000000 6x 3c
1: 10000000 7x
1: 100000000 8x 4c
1: 1000000000 9x
1: 10000000000 10x 5c
1: 100000000000 11x
1: 1000000000000 12x 6c
1: 10000000000000 13x
1: 100000000000000 14x 7c
1: 1000000000000000 15x
1: 10000000000000000 16x 8c
1: 100000000000000000 17x
1: 1000000000000000000 18x 9c
1: 10000000000000000000 19x
1: 100000000000000000000 20x 10c
1: 1000000000000000000000 21x
1: 10000000000000000000000 22x 11c
1: 100000000000000000000000 23x
1: 1000000000000000000000000(Avogadros Number) 24x 12c
Beyond this dilution ratio, even one molecule of the original medicine, in 1 lit of diluted solution is nearly impossible. If we accept this dilution as medicine, all the water in oceans and lakhs can be considered as some kind of medicine.
1: 10000000000000000000000000 25x
1: 100000000000000000000000000 26x 13c
1: 1000000000000000000000000000 27x
1: 10000000000000000000000000000 28x 14c
1: 100000000000000000000000000000 29x
1: 1000000000000000000000000000000 30x 15c


Just imagine potencies of 30c, 200c, 1M, 10M, 1MM ... it would even be difficult to count zeros !!!

(I request hubbers to write article on pseudo scientific or non conventional medical systems, like Reiki, Sakthipat or healing touch, magnetic therapies etc etc)
[/tscii:3a7c926c75]

[abbydoss1969]

I have tried homeopathy, I don't know if it helped or not! but probably didn't harm either.
Well, Homeopathy and Ayurveda are external medicine systems.But about Reiki, which is just another form of pranayama, is different.I was into yoga sometime back, I can tell confidently that all breathing exercises helped me and probably was at my healthiest when doing them.
Everything else is BS. aura, magnet therapy, urine therapy! etc

[dev]

I've been taking homoeopathy medicines(whenever a need arose) right from my childhood & i would say that it is very effective but takes some time to cure... I've also tried ayurveda once as I couldn't a good homoeopath & it too worked great for me...

I would say that both ayurveda & homoeopathy are holistic medicines...they give slow but long lasting cure... These medicines work by improving your immunity,therby making ur body stronger to fight the disease... whereas allopathy works by just destroying the cells(or whatever they call it) that contain the bacteria(or whatever it is) that causes the sickness...This is the reason Y we get instant results in allopathy... This is what my belief is... & it's a beauty to see how well homoeopaths & Ayurveda practitioners are able to diagnose most diseases without the use of all the modern devices used by allopaths... :)

[aravindhan]

India is one of the countries where every one is nearly half doctor and easily recommends medicines and consumes medicine on their own. Since homeopathic medicines are nearly harmless (whether it has any positive effect or not, that is the second question) to the patients, many quacks easily pick up this medical system and flourish with wealth.
True, but this is illegal. In India, you must have a recognised degree in homeopathy from an accredited college in order to be able to practice as a homeopath. I think the course has to be at least three years long in order to gain recognition. So the procedure is much more rigorous here than it is in some parts of the West, where people do a three-month course and then become homeopaths.

I have personally used homeopathy since my early childhood. I am very severely allergic to penicilin, sulpha- drugs, chloro- drugs, and most other strong medicines (and some weak ones, such as aspirin and ibuprofen), and homeopathy is quite often the only really viable course of treatment for me. It usually worked about as well against my illnesses as allopathy did against my sister's.

However, the scientific evidence for its validity is very scarce. There are two major scientific problems with homeopathy. The first is - as rk_k points out, that its theories make no sense at all in the light of our current understanding of science. Homeopathy says that water has a "memory", which is "imprinted" with the image of the molecules dissolved in it. This memory remains even after you dilute the solution so much that the molecules themselves are no longer present. The idea of this type of memory flatly contradicts modern science's understand of the nature of atoms and molecules. In addition, it begs the question of why it is only the molecules of the dissolved medicine that are imprinted in the water - water naturally has a lot of impurities and other dissolved substances present, logically, those should be "imprinted" too.

Of course, if we could prove that homeopathy actually worked, this objection would obviously become redundant. But it's here that we run into the second problem - homeopathy has never been shown to work in a scientifically acceptable way. A study published in the Lancet a month ago, analysed a large number of past experimental studies on the effectiveness of homeopathy. The authors concluded that the studies which showed a better-than-placebo result were the least rigorous methodologically, and the most rigorous studies showed nothing better than a placebo effect. From this, they concluded that homeopathy is unscientific rubbish.

This is not as clear cut as it may seem, however. It has been pointed out that the key problem with most studies (particularly the ones used by the Lancet) is that they are independent lab-based tests. As a result, they do not take into account how homeopathy is actually used clinically by its practitioners, which makes them less reliable. It is also a valid point that the subject is so emotionally charged that it is difficult to find a study which was actually conducted from a dispassionate, neutral perspective - most people studying the topic already have very strong views on the validity of homeopathy, and that's not the best way to do science.

This paper by Klaus Linde and others provides a very good overview of the studies that have been conducted (up to 2001). It gives a good idea of the problems that one faces in scientifically testing the validity of homeopathy:
http://www.biomedcentral.com/content/pdf/1472-6882-1-4.pdf

[r_kk]

[tscii:fafe60cb4c]Thanks Aravindan for the detail post. The web link you had given is quite useful.


But about Reiki, which is just another form of pranayama, is different.I was into yoga sometime back, I can tell confidently that all breathing exercises helped me and probably was at my healthiest when doing them.

Reiki is much different from Pranayamam or Meditation or Massage or any kind of physical or chemical phenomenon. It is a supernatural or spiritual phenomenon. The basis can be explained in a simple way, as follows.
1. Persons get disease when their internal energy (called “ki”) got disrupted.
2. The universe is assumed to be filled with energy which can not be detected by normal scientific process but the reiki (spirit life force in Japanese) master can channel the universal energy to patient via air (without touching).
3. As long as the patient is not resisting the flow of spiritual energy, the patient can replenished with universal energy and get cured.

I included Reiki in this thread since the above process is beyond any proven science and many quacks (any one with enough money to pay to master of this tactics, can become master within few weeks) are making this method very popular these days.



I would say that both ayurveda & homoeopathy are holistic medicines...they give slow but long lasting cure... These medicines work by improving your immunity,therby making ur body stronger to fight the disease... whereas allopathy works by just destroying the cells(or whatever they call it) that contain the bacteria(or whatever it is) that causes the sickness...This is the reason Y we get instant results in allopathy... This is what my belief is... & it's a beauty to see how well homoeopaths & Ayurveda practitioners are able to diagnose most diseases without the use of all the modern devices used by allopaths... :)

Hi Dev,
I have lot of contradictions with many of your statements (marked in red by me) you have made. Since you told it as “belief” I don’t want to make any comment on it. I will try to explain my understanding little later when I have some time.


[/tscii:fafe60cb4c]

[dev]

Yep,that is what I've heard & I believe is... If you happen to have a different view,pls do post it... would be happy to learn more abt it ...:)

"long lasting cure" -yes,I believe so... I've seen my bro suffering form allergy of some kind that make him sneeze too often(esp when he has his shower!!!) & was taking allopathy medicines for a long time...he'll get instant results but it wouldn't last even for a few months... he then tried homoeopathy & he has seen good results... As far as I know, he got rid of it almost completely & I've not seen it repeat after more than a couple of years now... I too have some personal experiences of getting cured of some complex health issues & there are a handful of my friends & relatives who got rid of their recurring health problems with the help of homoeopathy...

& the bacteria thing...I'm not a good science student...So am not sure as to what the word I should've actually used...that Y the few words in the brackets...:)

" homoeopaths"... This is the word I use to refer to a homoeopathy practitioners... :roll:

"are able to diagnose most diseases without the use of all the modern devices"

Yes... they are able to diagnose most diseases by touch,sight & thru the symptoms... I still can remember my homoeopath(!!!) asking me a list of almost 15-20 que to diagnose the right type of fever... It is very rarelt that they ask for a scan or Xray etc etc report even for a bit complex preoblems... This is my personal experience again...

Also,I've heard that accupressure practitioners would be able to diagnose looking at you eyeballs alone... I don't have any personal experience in this & I'm not sure how far it is true... If you know more on this aswell, pls do post it sometime...

[aravindhan]

Reiki is an extremely new system - it was founded in 1914 by Usui Mikao (often referred to as Dr. Usui Mikao, but that is misleading since his doctrate was in literature, not medicine). The story of its founding is quite interesting.

Apparently, when Usui Mikao was 40 or so (around 1900), he fell seriously ill during an epidemic. When he was ill, he had a "vision" of Mahavairochana Buddha, who gave him esoteric instruction. Unfortunately for Mikao, he belonged to a sect that worshipped Amitabha Buddha, and they were so outraged by his claims that he was expelled. He then abandoned Mahayana and become a Vajrayana Buddhist, and studied Vajrayana teachings for many years.

In 1914, he went to Mount Kurama and meditated there for several months, at the end of which he received a "mystical revelation" on how reiki (literally, "spiritual energy") could be used to heal people of all their problems. He opened his first clinic in 1922, and began to train others in 1924. The centre he established in Japan still exists, although it is apparently quite obscure.

One of Mikao's first students was a retired naval officer, Chujiro Hayashi. Hayashi in turn trained a Japanese American lady by the name of Hawayo Takata, who popularised reiki in the US after the Second World War. This "Americanised" reiki (which is different in many ways from what Mikao's Japanese centre practices today) then spread to the rest of the world. So it is not quite correct to think of reiki as an ancient Japanese method of healing, as many Indians seem to do.

In a final ironic twist, a Japanese American who had learned reiki in the US took it back to Japan in the 1980s, and started a new series of reiki centres there. These have gained some popularity amongst the young, and are actually much better known today than the original centre which Usui Mikao established.

[abbydoss1969]

[tscii]Thanks Aravindan for the detail post. The web link you had given is quite useful.

[quote=abbydoss1969] But about Reiki, which is just another form of pranayama, is different.I was into yoga sometime back, I can tell confidently that all breathing exercises helped me and probably was at my healthiest when doing them.

Reiki is much different from Pranayamam or Meditation or Massage or any kind of physical or chemical phenomenon. It is a supernatural or spiritual phenomenon. The basis can be explained in a simple way, as follows.
1. Persons get disease when their internal energy (called “ki”) got disrupted.
2. The universe is assumed to be filled with energy which can not be detected by normal scientific process but the reiki (spirit life force in Japanese) master can channel the universal energy to patient via air (without touching).
3. As long as the patient is not resisting the flow of spiritual energy, the patient can replenished with universal energy and get cured.

I included Reiki in this thread since the above process is beyond any proven science and many quacks (any one with enough money to pay to master of this tactics, can become master within few weeks) are making this method very popular these days.

Well, you have established the differences bet Reiki and Pranayama.
My point was the weakness in chi or qui, which causes illness,
can be cured by directing the pranic force ourselves towards our own body or other's body.
I think it is more prevalent in chinese tai chi kind of exercises where breathing is important and you have to imagine a lot of channels in the body through which the energy flow should be visualised.
It is there in Indian pranayama also, where with every inhalation you imagine /visualise an energy in golden/ white colour flowing from outside sources , into the body.and store it in some part of the body like the lower abdomen.
With every exhalation , you visualise, the energy flowing to wherever you direct it to, like heart or any other part from where it is stored in the lower abdomen.
There are so many rituals connected with these practices.

In that sense only, I connected both Reiki and Pranayama.
But science has no way of knowing these energy channels, so they rubbish even Tai Chi , Qi Qong breathing exercises, along with real rubbish like gem therapy,magnet therapy etc

[r_kk]

[tscii:eaf830f0fb]
My point was the weakness in chi or qui, which causes illness,can be cured by directing the pranic force ourselves towards our own body or other's body.
In Indian pranayama also, where with every inhalation you imagine /visualise an energy in golden/ white colour flowing from outside sources , into the body.and store it in some part of the body like the lower abdomen.


I have little contradictions to the similarities that you had made.

In Pranayamam, whether one imagine the energy flow (in golden or while color) in to your body or not, the following activities are tend to happen in your body.
1. Lungs muscles becomes more strong and inhaling or holding or Oxygen absorbing capacity increases due to proper breathing
2. Since Oxygen content in blood increases, brain and other organs gets more energy.
3. Imagination of energy flow or trying to be no thoughts stage, may help to calm your mind (lesser brain activities) and may provide some relief from the bodily pains.

The above are likely to happen even if we don’t imagine all the virtual energy flow. Except the third point, Reiki can not be compared with Pranayamam. More over Pranayamam can be self practiced without paying money to any body but Reiki may require a Reiki specialist since the patients is already has damaged “chi” (energy field). Correct me if my statements are wrong.


[/tscii:eaf830f0fb]

[pavalamani pragasam]

Talking about different therapies, rural practices are always baffling in their efficacy! For insect bites( snakes & scorpions) "manthiriththal" is the remedy! If a person has an attack of jaundice a needle is put in a vessel of water in the custody of the person doing the "manthiriththal". If small kids are frightened, become scared severely, "manthiriththal" is the cure! It is done with "viboothi", a towel, a peacock feather or a few whispered mantras. An extreme variety is the treatment of "possessed" people with "udukkadi" & a lot of barbarously cruel treatments!

Overall conclusion is: "faith" is the crucial point in any form of treatment for best results!

[abbydoss1969]

[tscii]

The above are likely to happen even if we don’t imagine all the virtual energy flow. Except the third point, Reiki can not be compared with Pranayamam. More over Pranayamam can be self practiced without paying money to any body but Reiki may require a Reiki specialist since the patients is already has damaged “chi” (energy field). Correct me if my statements are wrong.

yeah,r-kk, you're right.
I was just trying to say that maybe Reiki, is an offshoot of pranayama.
As you know, most of the chinese exercises ,martial arts, and their breathing exercises have evolved from india only. A sage called Dharma is supposed to have gone from Kerela and gone to china in ancient times and taught them all about yoga and pranayama etc...He is still revered in china.And combined with their ideas of acupressure points, it has evolved into what we have today.
So, all of them probably have the same basis.



Overall conclusion is: "faith" is the crucial point in any form of treatment for best resultsFaith in manthrithal for snakebites what? :roll: :roll:

[pavalamani pragasam]

No statistics available about the success rate. But it is a fact "manthiriththal" is supported with herbs administration. That must be doing the trick in the case of snakebites!

[r_kk]

Actually large percentages of disorders are mind related. We feel more pain when we think about pain. The bearing level of pain also, up to some level, mind related. A happier and mentally strong patient can win the disease, bear and accept the pain easier than a week patient. All “Manthirital” and prayers indirectly do the same. These kinds of solaces strengthen the weaker people and provide some kind of virtual hope. The “Manthirital” or “prayers” really helps people with mentally related disorders (emotional, few neurological and some cases of high blood pressure).

In snake bite cases, calm and cool mind makes less tension and hence the venom flow to brain and other vital organs become little slower. But it will not help for the real highly poisonous snakes like cobra. Fortunately 3/4 of snakes are non poisonous and few snakes venom or quantity of injected venom are not so fatal to the human. This is where “Manthirital” works. Another one aspect is “herbs”, the age old practices, and knowledge gained through our tribal ancestors, also helps in case of less poisonous snakes. But it can’t save a real poisonous snake bite. So, I recommend “Manthirital” for “Thanni paampu (river snakes)” bites and real antidote for Cobra bites.
[/tscii:a45f239ab9]

[pavalamani pragasam]

:lol:
I thought is nice to bring to light so many queer "medical" practices still very much in vogue :D

[abbydoss1969]

What human mind can do is amazing.
Have you guys heard of clairvoyance, esp, etc. There is phenomenon called "auto combustion" where human body just burns and only ashes are left!
Some people can bend spoons etc just by looking at it.

I saw a discovery programme where they tested tibetan buddist living in sub zero conditions with bare bodies.And they can generate heat by doing Pranayama.

[r_kk]

Some people can bend spoons etc just by looking at it.


Spoon bending is a very simple technique. Any one can do it. I will try to explain it without mixing any supernatural, when I get some time....

[r_kk]

[tscii:75d0151e19]Spoon bending:
This one of the famous magic used by the famous magicians like Uri Keller as human’s supernatural power but later exposed as by James Randi just an illusion.

What we need is few spoons which are invisibly cut (backside) at the connection point between bowl and rod (weak point) using hand saws. The magicians hold the spoon between thump and index fingers without showing the groove. After showing the spoon as intact to the viewer, the magician slightly presses the bowl part and break it with out showing the broken part to the audience by covering it with index and thump. Then stare at the spoon and loosen the index finger slowly and simultaneously. The audience will feel as if the spoon is bending while starring and finally breaking in to pieces. I had seen this demo in Star-plus channel on explaining/exposing famous mind control magics.

There is no great mind power beyond the basic laws of science. Some of them, we can’t understand with our limited or prejudiced mind or are purposefully kept secret to gain name and fame. Human’s endurance limit and controlling the autonomic or involuntary functions of human body or bearing the extreme cold or heat can be achieved through practice up to some extend or using some techniques

[/tscii:75d0151e19]

[pavalamani pragasam]

[tscii:70b21478e1]May I be permitted to make a little digression? In this thread discussing health & medical treatments, I wish to get clarification on a matter not very unrelated to the topic of the thread: our elders speak about “kanaththa naaL”, heavy day when somebody lies in his deathbed with the chance of death happening any day, time.

Usually the full moon day(“paurnami”), no moon day(“amaavaasai”) & the day on which the star “Karthikai” falls as “heavy” days when death is more possible to be expected to happen.

What cosmic forces exactly are the basis for such a belief? Our ancestors earmarked certain days of the month, year for fasting because of planetary positions which are not favourable for our digestive powers.

We know about gravitational forces on seawaves. Like that there must be some proper explanation for these “heavy” days connected to impending death. Can anyone enlighten us?
[/tscii:70b21478e1]

[r_kk]

PP,
It is one the biggest myth. Moon effect on human is very very small (3.5E-6 kg on body of 1 kg). This is very negligible and a person standing near to you or the roof of your house impose much more pull than MOON.

I will explain interesting facts about lunar myth, comparing % of water content on human body and % of water on earth, tides etc, when I get some time. The following calculation based on BASIC NEWTON's law shatter not only this myth but entire astrology itself.

I will also explain the major difference between effect of moon on ocean (continous) and on water within human cells (confined and separated) soon.

The following image will explain how mother's touch powerful than the effect of moon! Few mosquito's flying above person at the lastbed may impose much more effect than moon!

http://www.geocities.com/humanistamil/tide.JPG

[r_kk]

[tscii:86657f0109]Nature has always been a biggest thread or challenge to human. The fear about unexplainable natural activities created fear among early humans and lead to create myth about supernatural and worshipping habits. In order to create community level worships and reinforcement, humans create myth of bigger level. Stories about snakes, stories of human behavior changes/death associating with natural events are part of the basic myth making tendency of humans. We carefully select the data of persons died in Full moon day (“Paurnami”)or full dark day (“Amavasai”) and neglect the abundant data for other days, very conveniently and projects it to make others believe.

Some simple calculation based on Newton’s law (Pull = g*M1*M2 /D^^2) can break the entire “Moon myth” and entire astrology. (Extracts from a Physics paper for school children http://www.jal.cc.il.us/~mikolajsawicki/tides_new2.pdf is given below)

Even though Moon’s pull is very negligible (0.0027N/ 80kg person) compared to Earth’s pull (785N/ 80kg person), the ocean is being very large, highly flexible body and the distance between two points of ocean being very huge, tides are formed due to difference in Pull. Since the Moon’s pull is proportional to the square of distance, the distortion created by difference in force on a single large body of ocean creates tide of significant size. If we can able to divide the ocean in to small ponds, we may not able to see any tides.

In human, water is confined in to cells. It is not large body of continuous water. Hence the Moons/Sun’s pull is millions of times smaller than the walls and roofs of building impose on human. The combined effect of moon and sun impose only 4E-13 N on 1kg object on earth. This will create pull of 1.6E-11 N on 80 kg person. This is equal to keeping a pea (1.5gram) over 0.5m above one’s head. The tidal tension or increase in height due to such pull will be 10E-16 for a person height of 1.5m. This is equal to million times smaller than the atom.

A single mosquito sitting on the head of a person will impose much more pull than the combined effect of Moon and Sun.

Then, what are the real facts about data behind such beliefs. As I said before, it is again selective data to satisfy our own beliefs. A systematic study performed by Ivan Kelly, James Rotton and Roger Culver (1996) examined over 100 studies on lunar effects and concluded that the studies have failed to show a reliable and significant correlation (i.e., one not likely due to chance) between the full moon, or any other phase of the moon, and violence in prisons, major disasters, behavioral outbursts of psychologically. For detail refer to the following paper.
"The Moon was Full and Nothing Happened: A Review of Studies on the Moon and Human Behavior and Human Belief,"
http://www.eiu.edu/~scienced/3290/science/whatisscience/moonmyth.html

[/tscii:86657f0109]

[pavalamani pragasam]

Thought so too :D

[r_kk]

[tscii:9663274a0d] [/tscii:9663274a0d] Homeopathy and digitized medicine:

One of the major set back to homeopathic medicine in the last few years is due to the claiming of “Digital recording and transfer of Biological Information” by prestigious homeopathic scientist Dr. Jacques Benveniste (no more now, died in Paris on October 3, 2004), who was the major poineer of concept of “memory of water” . The entire Homeopathy is based on this unscientific concept.

He is a French Immunologist, He had published a contravarcial paper on homeopathy (333, 816 ) in prestigious science journal “NATURE” in June 30, 1988. Before publishing it in “Nature”, his paper was peer reviewed and published with the stipulation that they could send a team to observe a replication of the experiment. The major downfall of homeopathy has started after the verification team failed to notice any positive results.

The next downfall of homeopathy has started after the claiming of digital recording of memory of water and transfers the medicinal properties electronically. This claim leads to the award of second ignoble price to Benveniste.

I feel our hubbers should be careful and understand these indigestible claims of homeopathy before choosing it as a alternative medicine for life threatening diseases.

Read more details below.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacques_Benveniste

[Shakthiprabha.]

WOW what INFOS!! That too JUST when I started my homeopathy yest, for some personal problem of mine!

GOD BLESS ME.

[binal142001]

I'm here still alive after using 30 years of homeopathy(since my birth) for all big and small illnesses...
Homeopathy is a very reliable method of treatment...it does not suppress ur illness like allopathy but it gets the illness out of ur body....
My entire family is homeopathic..and have got solution to all their medical problems....by GODS GRACE...

[Shakthiprabha.]

hi binal... thats what i heard and believe too. Good for u and ur family. In fact I am planning to introduce my daughter to homeopathy too, for regular small routine problems and checkups.

What bout those steroids..? Many other alternate medicines claim that they are devoid of steroids. (like ayurveda, sidda etc)

[binal142001]

SP,
To my best knowledge Homeopathy too is devoid of steroids.....
U could make sure with ur Doc.

[dev]

I'm here still alive after using 30 years of homeopathy(since my birth) for all big and small illnesses...
Homeopathy is a very reliable method of treatment...it does not suppress ur illness like allopathy but it gets the illness out of ur body....
My entire family is homeopathic..and have got solution to all their medical problems....by GODS GRACE...

Same here... I too have been taking homoeopathy for small & a some complex illnesses right from my childhood... Never had any problem so far...

Sakthiprabha, If need be, I can give you the contacts of one good homoeopathy practioner in Bangalore... He's one excellent person who fits perfectly into the profession... He has his clinic in Sanjay Nagar... There is another excellent ayurveda practitoner as well in the same area... Both are so very dedicated to their profession...Let me know if u need more details...

[r_kk]

[tscii:453b6242b6] [/tscii:453b6242b6] Thanks Dev and binal142001,
I accept yours “from childhood onwards” statements on homeopathy. I also came across many similar claims of people those who firmly believes that
* prayer alone can cure disease
* holy water alone can cure diseases
* some healing touch alone can cure diseases

Even my mother having a strong belief that “black tea with lemon” can cure most of the dysenteries. Unfortunately science doesn’t accept such claims unless it is repeatable under scientific environments. Doesn’t mean that these claims are bogus or self deceiving? No… In fact many clinical trial using placebo pills (sugar pills without any medicine) creates positive effects. What we have to understand here is the effect of positive thinking on immune system and self recovery process of human body against most of the common and new diseases.

Homeopathic medicines are unfortunately close to placebo pills as per proven Avogadro principle. The probability of having one molecule of medicine in 1 liter of 30X medicine is nearly nil. Hence Homeopathy is not only free from any steroids and dangerous chemicals but also from any medicine (in scientific terms). Even if we accept the memory of water concept, then there are million times of chances that water might have obtained thousands of such memories from it formation of H2O molecule. Please read my first post explaining all these mathematics.

[Badri]

r_kk: Sorry if you've already covered this in your extensive posting on this subject, but is the concept of "memory of water" the origin of Homeopathy, or is it an offshoot by a latter day proponent?

I always thought Homeopathy as originally conceived was based on the idea of Similia Similibus Curantur or Like cures like.

(This is also a concept in Ayurveda something to the effect of Ushnam Ushnena Samathi meaning heat is treated with heat or something like that. Please note I am not drawing any parallels between the two systems).

My only doubt was what is the original premise of Homoepathy as propounded by Hahnemann?

[r_kk]

[tscii:0328446456] [/tscii:0328446456] Memory of water (by Jacques Benvensita, 1984) is a very recent concept. When Samuel Hahnemann proposed the Homeopathic concept based on “laws of similar” (similar cure similar) and “potentisation” (more dilution brings more strength to cure), Avogadro principle was not there.

Even though Heinemann and Avogadro are of same period, Avogadro’s paper was published (1811) just few years later than most of the Heinemann works published (1786 ~1810). The Avogadro’s theory had taken nearly 50 years to become very popular and shattered the entire basis of Homeopathic concept of “dilution to the micro level”. Then the homeopathic believers were forced to provide a modified concept overcoming the Avogadro’s limit. They end up in “memory of water” in which water molecule remembers all other molecules which came in to contact before (even though not present now). Their further advancement and research lead to recording possibilities of such memory (1990~2000).

[Badri]

So, we can't trash the homeopathy school of thought based on this recent discovery of memory of water, isn't it?

But the Avogadro theory, now that is another question altogether.

Again, has the placebo effect itself been scientifically proven? Do placebos really work? Homeopathy seems to, because of records. In my own family, I've seen it work. But before I attribute it all to the placebo effect, I want to know how genuine is the whole "placebo" effect itself. Can we really cure ourselves by mistakingly believing we have taken the right medicine?

If that is the case, as evidenced by homeopathic cures of illnesses, then is not homeopathy a lot better than allopathy in that it is not introducing any unwanted chemicals into the system?

[r_kk]

Placebo effect is one of the very interesting subjects. I will try to explain based on available scientific studies and my personal experiences, when I get some time.
Read the following paper on placebo effect.
http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/full/159/1/122

Then, I had seen a video (Discovery channel) showing large needle penetrating the lower arm of a patient without feeling pain without local anesthesia , just making the patient to believe as if no pain. Our human mind/brain is too complicated and our present level of science can not explain fully at this moment.

[Badri]

Long and interesting paper! I ran through it (must confess, did not do a too detailed reading!!) but the subjects were suffering from depression. Which is mind related, and therefore a placebo might have more effect on it, considering it also has a predominantly mental effect.

But what about a physical illness...take even a normal cold and cough which I have seen homeopathy heal in a remarkably short time. How does the placebo work in such cases? Not asking for an immediate reply...but would appreciate if you can factor this question also in when you do reply.

Thanks :)

[binal142001]

Long and interesting paper! I ran through it (must confess, did not do a too detailed reading!!) but the subjects were suffering from depression. Which is mind related, and therefore a placebo might have more effect on it, considering it also has a predominantly mental effect.

But what about a physical illness...take even a normal cold and cough which I have seen homeopathy heal in a remarkably short time. How does the placebo work in such cases? Not asking for an immediate reply...but would appreciate if you can factor this question also in when you do reply.

Thanks :)

rkk,
I have the same things to ask you whatever badri said...


Also- sometimes I cannot explain my doctor what kind of pain i'm having in specific area- then he does the examination and based on my answers he gives a medicine and i take it for few hours/days depending on dosage but sometimes i dont feel any difference- i mean the pain is still the same...then the doctor gives another medicine...for which he thinks might have been the 2nd problem from his list problem.(his list of my illness based on my explaining)....and then it works.....

I believe this doctor.....and if HOMEOPATHY WAS ALL ABOUT PLACEBO EFFECT WHY DIDN"T MY PAIN GO AWAY WITH HIS FIRST MEDICINE for which i believed and took the medicine with a positive feeling... :roll: ???

one more thing - that needle example that u gave may be true for several reasons- the person being experimented might be think skinned, or may be he was made to act for that part of discovery programme/or any experiment ,that he did not experience pain..
Placebo effect can be had only on mental problems...not on physical ones...

Example-
So what if someone is cutting ur hand and ur loved ones tell u no rkk.....ur just fine....just be calm, nothing is happening....u will be ok......SO WILL U BE OK????
so all physical pain is just like that- placebo effect will not work, u need to have some remedy....NATURAL(homeopathy, ayurveda, naturopathy, more) or ARTIFICIAL (allopathy- full of chemicals, steroids and hormones .... :x )......


AFTER all this do not think i'm a homeopathic doctor because i'm trying to defend that...I'm in NO way related to medicine profession, but a strong patient of Homeopathy....not only me... my family since generations have been into homeopathic medication....and so....I SUPPORT ALL SUCH NON CHEMICAL/STEROIDS/HORMONAL medicines STRONGLY.....

If someone wants to become prey to illnesses lifelong suffering throu it....THEY ARE MOST WELCOME TO GO INTO ALLOPATHY....
and people(doctors) of allopathy always try to prove that all holistic/natural medications are placebo, ineffective and blahblahblah.....I have experience in that because in USA there are not many homeopathic doctors and if there are they are way too expensive because the insurance will not cover it...I have had problems for a year to which the doctor(allopathy) said that the surgery was the only treatment but i got phone consultation from india and getting homeo medication now....and by god's grace it seems to be a lot better.....and my homeo doctor does not see any necessity for surgery.......

[binal142001]

I THINK PEOPLE WHO BELIEVE IN HOLISTIC/NATURAL MEDICATION SHOULD CONTINUE TO DO SO WITHOUT ANY INHIBITIONS....
BECAUSE NATURAL/NATURE ALWAYS WINS....against any chemicals or man made...

[r_kk]

[tscii:79ac47eebb] [/tscii:79ac47eebb]


But what about a physical illness...take even a normal cold and cough which I have seen homeopathy heal in a remarkably short time. How does the placebo work in such cases?


rkk, I have the same things to ask you whatever badri said...

hi badri and binal42001,
Your questions are 100% valid. How these medicines are effective on small children and animals where Placebo effect has no role to play?

I will reply it in detail based on papers published in the medical journal “Lancet” and other standard magazines. In brief let me quote the conclusion made after 110 clinical trials using Homeopathic medicine and conventional medicine.

“Biases are present in placebo-controlled trials of both homoeopathy and conventional medicine. When account was taken for these biases in the analysis, there was weak evidence for a specific effect of homoeopathic remedies, but strong evidence for specific effects of conventional interventions. This finding is compatible with the notion that the clinical effects of homoeopathy are placebo effects.”
http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140673605671772/abstract

I had also gone through clinical trial reports on cold & Flu using new range of conventiona/non-conventional remedies which include “double blind placebo” trials and surprised to note that placebo pills follows closely to the conventional/non-conventional cures! So for the cases of minor cold and cough, we may have to believe the old saying “If you treat the cold with medicine, you require seven days to get cured but if you don’t take any medicine, it will take one week”.
http://www.annals.org/cgi/content/full/137/12/939

Then, binal142001, please note that I am not intentionally against or support the homeopathic or allopathic medical systems. In fact I hate medicine and hospitals and try to avoid taking medication for the common diseases as far as possible. But I started writing in this thread after seeing so many quacks are flourishing in “alternative medical therapies” business in India. I always adhere to the principles of Plato's Socrates: Follow the evidence, wherever it leads. Unfortunately the available evidences overwhemlingly against this age old homeopathic medical system, which I subscribed to once. Long time back I came across a cure for asthma using “live fish”. Thousands of people believe it and says that it is working. But unfortunately science can’t accept few selective random cases or probabilistically remote + occurance as proofs.

Then regarding "hypnosis" and surgery without anesthesia, let me check and provide you more details when I get some time.
http://www.exn.ca/news/video/exn2001/12/11/exn20011211-hypnosis.asx

[Uthappam]

Sorry, i dun have the time to read so much of text. But i am afraid of quacks. there are more of them in traditional medicine than modern medicine.

Off to get my regular dose. bye!

[Shakthiprabha.]

r_kk post sounds sensible. Esp with quacks all around taking advantage of ppl moving towards alternate therapies, one needs to be CAREFUL in whom/what they resort to.

DEv,

Thats very sweet of u. I am, right now, going to a doc near jayanagar. I would be extremely pleased if u post me the reference of the doc u know. Not tht I would switch over, (since my doc seems pretty good) but JUST FOR KNOWLEDGe SAKE. :)

[r_kk]

Read this week Junior Vikatan to see a special article on Homeopathy. That special article also provides similar details.
JV Issue Date: 02-11-05
"Oor Aarokiya Alasal. Maruntha Mayayaia?"

http://www.vikatan.com/jv/2005/nov/02112005/jv0601.asp

For those who don't have vikatan subscription, please read it from the follwing link after installing vikatan fonts from vikatan web site.

http://www.geocities.com/humanistamil/Homeopathy_jv0601.pdf

[r_kk]

[tscii:ec6a4d3eb8]

Prayers don’t heal...![/tscii:ec6a4d3eb8]

A recent comprehensive scientific study carried out by Harvard Medical School on more than 1800 patients, who went on coronary bypass surgery revealed that prayers by others do not have any healing effect. Instead it creates opposite effect for those who know that someone is praying for their recovery.

It proves the fundamental facts that the basic elements of nature as well as the day to day survival of living creatures on earth are not controlled by any super powers!

http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/daily/2006/03/30-prayer.html

[Shakthiprabha]

Thread brought forward.

Rkk,
prayer link doesn't work...