Non-Vegetarianism in Buddhism

[krishnan]

It definitely is against the 5 basic percepts of Buddhism. I am not here to argue that Non-vegetarianism in Buddhism is something wrong. I do realise that all goody stuffs written in most of the religious texts are practically not followed in day to day life. My point is why such an attempt is not even made in ancient Buddhist teachings (in fact by Buddha himself who is not a Vegetarian) to advocate vegetarianism when one of their percept says "not to take the life of anything living" ?

For the benefit of those who dosen't know what 5 percepts are it is the moral code within Buddhism. Follow the link if you need more details.

http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/basic-guide.htm

PS:
Just curious about why the religion that says in principle not to take life of any living thing dosen't advocate vegetarianism in its teachings

[hehehewalrus]

Dear mr.Krishnan,

Religious practice is best left to the individual depending on his environment, tastes and preferences. There may be numerous reasons for this(food chain, ecology cycle...are just 2 of 1000).

Not necessary that all proponents of a creed need to think alike.

Am vegetarian myself.
walrus

[geno]

Dear mr.Krishnan,

Religious practice is best left to the individual depending on his environment, tastes and preferences. There may be numerous reasons for this(food chain, ecology cycle...are just 2 of 1000).

well said walrus!

Then some may start asking why do "Advaitins" dont normally eat non-vegetarian?? ( some eat all kinds of food nowadays! :wink: ).....

......since "Advaitham' says that all are but the same "brahmam" then the "keeraik kattu" and "chicken" are nothing but the images of the same "brahmam" no? :lol:


I had this incident narrated by a friend who had been to mumbai..There he had gone for lunch with some of his friends to a restaurant......

.....And amongst the group was a mumbai-born and brought up "orthodox" guy - and during the course of the sumptuous lunch - that guy seems to have observed -

- "chicken nannA irukku"!!! - to which all the others - mostly from chennai - guys - had burst out laughing which shook the restaurant it seems!

P.S : I'm "normally" a vegetarian too! :) - ( am not "orthodox" though!!! :wink: )

[hehehewalrus]

am not orthodox either :)
so that shows i am an unorthodox in terms of non-vegetarian lifestyle..hope i am not attacked for following my creed :lol: :lol:

[davie]

even i hate killig animals and birds for food.
but without eating chicken i cant live :cry:
indha brahmin pasanga thirunda ve mattanga
buddha va yenda vambuku ilukurenga

[Dr. Veena]

What is the proof that Buddha was not a Vegetarian himself? Buddhism follows the middlepath of life, where one eats just to live.

[r_kk]

Dear all participants
Food is just for the sake of living. Nature doesn't made us to eat only vegetables. At the same time, we have the mind which understand the feeling of pain of other animal. In nature Jackel has to kill bird, bird has to kill insects, insects has to kill plants.. So this natural chain has to continue. Vegeterian concept is based on the wrong concept in which plants do not have life. I had seen many vegeterian those who don't want to kill even insects but take medicines and killing worms/viruses in the body. Who said those doesn't have life? So nothing wrong if one has to eat animal just because of stomach not because of taste. In such cases it is beeter to choose animal which has very less sence of understanding and do very less pain when you decide to eat for stomach.

[nirosha sen]

Animals have less pain than us????? That's probably gauged by a very presumptuous barometer, my friend!!! 8)

[r_kk]

not just body pain... understanding of death... fear about death...

[nirosha sen]

Pheromones is the understanding of death!!! That's why animals smell bad when they're terrorised to death! Why do think we use so much condiments and spices like turmeric for?????

It is to wipe out the smell of death, before we cook and eat their meat!!!!!

[r_kk]

Good...Indians we have the luxury of eating veg food. How a person living in cold region will survive? How a fisherman can live? Do you think that plants do not feel pain? Then what you will eat to survive. In my case once I was trying to save a snake crossing the road, but I would have killed if it would have entered in to my house and threatens my life. The moral is I have to protect my life (natural instincts). All the naimals follow this principles. When the stomach of Lion/shark is full, it wouldn't bother if other animal moves near by. It kills only for it stomach...That same is applicable to human also... When the animal's brain size is big, its understanding about death also big. Thats why Dolphin, Chimbs are very close to human.. They have social relationship and can feel much (longer in sence) if some it close one dies... If I have nothing to eat and choose either between fish or dolphin, I will choose fish. But if I have to choose between fish or leaf, I will choose leaf... Note that last so many years I am managing with only leafs and fruits... and never face situation to eat fish... It is very difficult to define that some food habit is good and others are bad. It is all how you have brought up and how yur perspective about life....

[hehehewalrus]

ok guys, enough of joking.

Dear Mr.Krishnan(any relation to the violin maestro? :lol: )

It is difficult to give an answer to your question, maybe we need to wait till a hardcore buddhist turns up to clarify your queries.

Imagine if there are no non-vegetarians in this world. This would mean all the vegetarian nutrient resources would have dried up by now - consider the impact if the millions of cattle consumed for food every day had been left alive!

As a veggie, am just happy there is enough veg food left for me. I wish Buddhists like Ranatunga or Yokozuna were not veg :lol: :lol:

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.chijanofuji.com/takanohana1c.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.chijanofuji.com/Takanohana1.html&h=676&w=552&sz=44&tbnid=MYGv-laTXn0J:&tbnh=135&tbnw=111&start=10&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dyokozuna%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D

warm regards,
hehehewalrus

[Querida]

even i hate killig animals and birds for food.
but without eating chicken i cant live :cry:
indha brahmin pasanga thirunda ve mattanga
buddha va yenda vambuku ilukurenga

:D :lol: @ davie

[nirosha sen]

As long as any creature has a central nervous system, I'm sure they feel pain. Pain is after all a primal instinct like procreation! As long as it hurts, the animal knows the end is near!!!

So no matter how big the brain size is, I'm sure pain is felt by creatures, big and small!!

[davie]

how bout this option?
using painkiller before killingthe animal. :?

[Querida]

Davie are u willing to ingest the chemicals that the painkiller would contain? :?

[r_kk]

The basic question is remain unanwered? If you think all animal feels equal pain and we should not eat then what you will eat? Do you kill mosquito? DO you kill grass (Keerai) to eat? Can you tell whether you can eat egg or not (it doesn't feel pain). What difference you find between egg and mustard seed (both can grow under suitable condition)? Can any vegeterian can justify their food habits? I will come to Buddha's phiosophy on non-veg later once this discussion mature a perfect point. Please note that real Buddhist can not be hardcore! because buddhism itself a soft flexible path..

[Sandeep]

Plants also have life like animals. Just because plants cannot express pain in a way we can understand doesnt mean they dont feel pain. So in short you have to kill to live. :(

But studies do show that human body is more suitable for vegetarian diet. Also there was a study which said that when animals are killed they are in fear of death which increase adrenaline amount. So constant intake of animals increase effect of adrenaline in humans which makes us more agreesive. :x

Anyway I eat anything as long as it is tasty and ok for my stomach :)

[Querida]

well r_kk you're making everything sound bad to eat....im sure everyone knows that plants too have life...and that if they could express pain they would...but i can't take a guilt trip every single time i eat something....so gonna agree with Sandeep...look what you have reduced me too! :P :lol: no im totally kidding...you have a good point Sandeep :D

[krishnan]

Hi All,

Good to see the responses. Thanks for everyone who contributed. I am personally neither 'for' nor 'against' non-vegetarianism. I agree that it should be left to the individual to be a veggie or not.

My point is in most of the religions irrespective of whether people follow everything said in the religious texts or not, atleast an effort would've been made by the pillar-men of the religion to support their principles. In this case one of the prime principle of Buddhism is not to take life of any living being. So why Buddha (Or) any tall personality in the religion did'nt advocate for vegetarianism?

And as walrus put it it's difficult to answer the question until hardcore buddhist turns up to clarify. If Raveen is still around in this forum I hope he could throw some light on this topic.


davie,

"indha brahmin pasanga thirunda ve mattanga
buddha va yenda vambuku ilukurenga"

I feel this statement is un-warrented. I am going to refrain from replying to such posts in future.

And about giving painkillers / sedatives before killing the animal, I am for it.

[hehehewalrus]

dear mr.krishnan
appreciate your mature response. Hope to see your participation in more threads.

[Querida]

And about giving painkillers / sedatives before killing the animal, I am for it.[/quote]

Again...you are in this way more appeasing your guilty conscience rather than helping the animal...furthermore just as i added before do you really want to ingest the chemicals that are in the painkillers injected into the animal....

this reminds of a experiment where they had genetically modified a type of grain to contain all the necessary vitamins..but the taste was very bitter....so they thought they would feed it to chickens then eat the chickens..what they did not think of was how the grain would overall change the taste of the chicken...

[davie]

@kk brilliant posting i am nothing infront of you.
@nirosha
even plants are livign being. Even they know pain and also react.
Its not at all fair to kill any living beings. Best to eat chemicals like coke or pepsi. or some tablets which can substitute food. :lol:


i was just mindreading krishnan.

[krishnan]

Mindreading?? Hmm. A trainee mindreader huh??

If I am of any help to polish your mindreading skills, then I am glad to be one. I am really glad that I am useful for somebody in this planet :lol: .

[davie]

The basic question is remain unanwered? If you think all animal feels equal pain and we should not eat then what you will eat? Do you kill mosquito? DO you kill grass (Keerai) to eat? Can you tell whether you can eat egg or not (it doesn't feel pain). What difference you find between egg and mustard seed (both can grow under suitable condition)? Can any vegeterian can justify their food habits? I will come to Buddha's phiosophy on non-veg later once this discussion mature a perfect point. Please note that real Buddhist can not be hardcore! because buddhism itself a soft flexible path..

@kk genius
Its true an egg does not know any pain. It has a living cell, which may multiply at certain conditions. But egg is certainly different from a normal body cell ? This issue is also similar tothe embryonic stem cell research issue between bush and kerry the two morons
no dumb answers pls @krishnan :lol:

[Sandeep]

In this case one of the prime principle of Buddhism is not to take life of any living being. So why Buddha (Or) any tall personality in the religion did'nt advocate for vegetarianism?


Buddha did not prohibit consumption of meat, even by monks. In fact, he explicitly rejected a suggestion from Devadatta to do so. On the other hand, Buddha categorically prohibited consumption of the flesh of any animal that was "seen, heard or suspected" to have been killed specifically for the benefit of monks.

Why this "middle path" approach to meat-eating ?

There were no "Buddhists" in Shakyamuni's time. There were only mendicants (monks including Buddha's disciples) of various kinds, plus lay people who gave them alms out of respect without necessarily worrying about the brand name of the teachings.

If meat was what a householder chose to offer, it was to be accepted without discrimination or aversion. To reject such an offering would be an offense against hospitality and would deprive the householder of an opportunity to gain merit -- and it could not benefit the animal, because it was already dead.

Reference : http://www.urbandharma.org/udharma3/vegi.html

Buddhist monks and nuns depend on almsfood. They were, and still are, prohibited from growing their own food, storing their own provisions or cooking their own meals. Instead, every morning they would make their day's meal out of whatever was freely given to them by lay supporters. Whether it was rich food or coarse food, delicious or awful tasting it was to be accepted with gratitude and eaten regarding it as medicine. The Buddha laid down several rules forbidding monks from asking for the food that they liked. As a result, they would receive just the sort of meals that ordinary people ate - and that was often meat.

Reference : http://www.urbandharma.org/udharma3/meat.html

[mandangi]

There is nothing wrong in eating non vegegetarian. Non vegetarian contains more fats and proteins which give more strenght.

[davie]

There is nothing wrong in eating non vegegetarian. Non vegetarian contains more fats and proteins which give more strenght.

infact i read some where that persons who eat a balanced diet of both non veg and vegetarian food are the healthiest persons.

[nightingale]

"Nothing will benefit human health and increase chances of survival for life on earth as much as the evolution to a vegetarian diet."
Einstein .thanks

[Surya]

///Non vegetarian contains more fats and proteins which give more strenght.///
Thats a misunderstanding. Sure, meat has more protien, but that protien can also get to your body, without killing an animal, through things such as eggs, cheese, etc.

Religion or caste should have nothing to do with a person choosing to be a veg or non veg. In-fact, a person who chooses to be a veg on his own has more chances of not eating than a person who doesn't eat, because his hands are tied in the name of religion of caste. My caste eats meat, but I chose to go veg since I was 13.
regards.
8)

[mandangi]

infact i read some where that persons who eat a balanced diet of both non veg and vegetarian food are the healthiest persons.

I eat both vegetarian and non vegetarian. Vegetarian contains more carbo hydrates. For body activeness carbo hydrates are required. Non vegetarian contains more fats and proteins. For body strenght fats and proteins are required.

[Querida]

Is there any way in being a veggie and still be able to get the full proteins that meat has besides taking supplements? Is tofu a suitable replacement for meat? Are lentils? I know i stay veggie whenever i can...though not strict...what stops me are the fainting spells that come with lack of protein and iron...and unfortuanatly fainting is not like in the movies with graceful falling and convienient spaces to fall....and furthermore eager wonderful people rushing to help you....rather it can happen on the stairs...and most likely you end up pulling items down as you fall so you curse yourself for taking off your helmet... :P :P :P

[Surya]

infact i read some where that persons who eat a balanced diet of both non veg and vegetarian food are the healthiest persons.

Vegetarian contains more carbo hydrates. For body activeness carbo hydrates are required. Non vegetarian contains more fats and proteins. For body strenght fats and proteins are required.

There are plenty of veg food that have a lot of protiens and fats. Like Q just said Tofu. And beans have plenty of Protiens.

regards. 8)

[hehehewalrus]

There are plenty of veg food that have a lot of protiens and fats. Like Q just said Tofu. And beans have plenty of Protiens.

-------------------

As usual, Surya spits out half-truths. The amount of proteins in veg sources is very negligible compared to non-veg sources.

[Querida]

hey that still doesn't help me!....scuse me while i ....well kiss the asphalt...no worries gots me helmet on :P

[hehehewalrus]

Querida
what kind of convoluted mess is that avatar? Chuck it and bring on the old one! :)

[Querida]

Querida
what kind of convoluted mess is that avatar? Chuck it and bring on the old one! :)

it's chinese! And well it means something quite nice...it has to be complicated it means love... :P

[mandangi]

One doctor also sugested me to eat both vegetarian and non vegetarian food. That doctor takes milk but he do not eat meat. He is brahman. He dont like to do eat food against his caste tradition. But he suggests others to eat non vegetarian.

[r_kk]

Nice to note that the discussion is in right direction and appreciate the good justification for Buddhist monks eating Non-veg. If you read about Vivekanada, he had also taken non-veg in some incidents. It is nothing wrong since the monks do not have their own wish. They should not differentiate the food what they are getting.

"if eating grass were to provide religious merit, deer would reach heaven before
man." (not sure …somebody says its from Buddha and other says Kabir…)

If you read Buddha’s life you can find two major incidences which shows how affectionate to the animals. One is fighting to save the life of little sheep which was about to slaughtered for Yagna and the other one his (as Sibi in his previous birth!!!) effort to save a Dove. Let it all be stories…and we discuss little more practical.

Even among Indian Vegetarians (!), most of the Bengali vegetarians (!) takes fish without any feeling what they have for Cows…So defining Indian vegetarianism becomes tough task. Some guys even consider garlic and onion as non-veg…If you look at Taiwan, eating anything which grow below soil is considered as unholy practice…What all means…? Which is right and which is wrong?

It is all your perspective.. Pain, love, meaning of life everything.. we judge others based on our superiority feelings... that we are correct..

Once in Discovery channel, they were showing a documentary about small elephant…how it has born… how it gets separated from its herd… how it tries to mix with other elephant and finally how it is killed by lions… It can make a shock on anybody who ever watch the program and start hating the lions for killing the beautiful little elephant.. Is it correct? No… if you watch further… you will find the lions are feeding the elephant’s flesh to its babies… So which one has to live? Lion or elephant? If we try to save rabbits, then within two years all other animals will die since all grass has eaten by rabbits.. and consequentially other non-veg animals without food. It is all natural cycle… Balance in life… Nature is neither kind nor cruel… It is part of life…

You choose your way of eating and you don’t have any right to comment on other food habits as long as killing of animal is performed so cruelly, painfully or just for passion..

If you read Buddha, you will find a striking statement saying “you are the light for yourselves”. Buddha is just a status and any one can become if one understands the basis of life…So, you need not to follow him…that is the great point of Buddhism…


Will write more when discussions reach some good points.

-KK

[Surya]

///The amount of proteins in veg sources is very negligible compared to non-veg sources.////

Ignorant walrus jumps to conclutions. When did I say that the amount protien in Veg sources overpower the protien in non-veg? I just said that you could get plenty of protein in veg food also.

Peace Uncle. Keep it Cool. :wink:
8)

[hehehewalrus]

err Surya, you spelt protein wrong :P

[Surya]

Ohh, my bad, Typo.
Thanks Uncle. Keep it Cool. :D
8)

[mandangi]

I grew up very tall by taking more proteins from childhood. I eat eggs daily and some times chicken, mutton, fish, prawns and crabs.

[Surya]

:shock:
COOOOL! :D

I'm 6'2 in and I've been a veg since I was 13. :D

[mandangi]

From age of 5 years i like non vegetarian food. Because non vegetarian is very tasty.

[Sandeep]

Is there any way in being a veggie and still be able to get the full proteins that meat has besides taking supplements? Is tofu a suitable replacement for meat? Are lentils? I know i stay veggie whenever i can...though not strict...what stops me are the fainting spells that come with lack of protein and iron...and unfortuanatly fainting is not like in the movies with graceful falling and convienient spaces to fall....and furthermore eager wonderful people rushing to help you....rather it can happen on the stairs...and most likely you end up pulling items down as you fall so you curse yourself for taking off your helmet... :P :P :P

Dieticians suggest nuts as a good supplyment for meat.

See the suggested vegetarian diet in the link

http://www.news.cornell.edu/releases/Jan98/vegdietpyramid.GIF

The Protein Myth

The myth that the nine essential amino acids cannot be obtained without incorporating meat into the diet is gradually diminishing. People are quickly learning that they can easily combine a variety of grains and vegetables to ensure that all nine amino acids are obtained in adequate amounts. In fact, according to articles in the May 1994 Supplement American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, plant protein foods contribute approximately 65 percent of the per capita supply of protein on a worldwide basis.

[mandangi]

It definitely is against the 5 basic percepts of Buddhism. I am not here to argue that Non-vegetarianism in Buddhism is something wrong. I do realise that all goody stuffs written in most of the religious texts are practically not followed in day to day life. My point is why such an attempt is not even made in ancient Buddhist teachings (in fact by Buddha himself who is not a Vegetarian) to advocate vegetarianism when one of their percept says "not to take the life of anything living" ?

For the benefit of those who dosen't know what 5 percepts are it is the moral code within Buddhism. Follow the link if you need more details.

http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/basic-guide.htm

PS:
Just curious about why the religion that says in principle not to take life of any living thing dosen't advocate vegetarianism in its teachings

Chinese eat small animal like snakes, frogs etc. In China Buddhist saints also have such food habits. There is nothing wrong in eating small animals like snakes, frogs etc.

[Sandeep]

Even among Indian Vegetarians (!), most of the Bengali vegetarians (!) takes fish without any feeling what they have for Cows…So defining Indian vegetarianism becomes tough task. Some guys even consider garlic and onion as non-veg…If you look at Taiwan, eating anything which grow below soil is considered as unholy practice…What all means…? Which is right and which is wrong?
-KK

Even in Hinduism non-vegetarianism was common. It was Adhi shankara who actually propagated vegetarianism mainly as a tool against buddhism (Buddhists where split in their opinion on meat eating, even Buddha and his greatest disciple devadatha).

Jains are pure vegetarians and they dont eat even onion.

[davie]

http://www.news.cornell.edu/releases/Jan98/vegdietpyramid.GIF[/b]

The Protein Myth

The of the per capita supply of protein on a worldwide basis.



Yea but how many vegetarians consume lots of nuts Obviously nuts are rich in oils and vitamin E and they are good. I know many who dont have a clue about essential fats like vegetable oil/oil got from nuts and they reduce oil consumption. It really takes for a vegetarian to meet 100% nutrition expiation.
Where as in non-veg food, Eggs top the list inthe world's best food., next is the fish etc etc.
Most ofthe NonVs consume eggs on daily basis.

[Sandeep]

Yea but how many vegetarians consume lots of nuts Obviously nuts are rich in oils and vitamin E and they are good. I know many who dont have a clue about essential fats like vegetable oil/oil got from nuts and they reduce oil consumption. It really takes for a vegetarian to meet 100% nutrition expiation.
Where as in non-veg food, Eggs top the list inthe world's best food., next is the fish etc etc.
Most ofthe NonVs consume eggs on daily basis.

From my earlier post :
"plant protein foods contribute approximately 65 percent of the per capita supply of protein on a worldwide basis."

I think this answers your query. I am not a proponent of Vegetaranian food. I am myself a non-vegetarian. But that doesnt mean Veg food cannot meet human nuitrician needs. :)

I do agree there is a lot of wrong information about diet.

[Querida]

Surya you really are too much sometimes :lol:

anyways your height actually depends on your genes as for the environmental factor..a vegetarian could grow just as tall from getting the same vitamins/ proteins from non-meat products that is if he/she has a heridatary tendency for height...actually if you look at it your way...milk is ' better ' at encouraging height than anything else...if you are predetermined from genes to be short eating meat will not make you grow tall...well it helps that not one product but a healthy lifestyle in general may encourage growth and strength of body whatever size...

[Surya]

:lol:

///anyways your height actually depends on your genes as for the environmental factor..a vegetarian could grow just as tall from getting the same vitamins/ proteins from non-meat products that is if he/she has a heridatary tendency for height.///

Thanks Querida, That was excatly my point. :)

[Querida]

Thank you Sandeep for your post...even though im not veggie fully...it helps to know that i can convince my doctor not load up on the supplements..and more so not to scold me for being so stubborn...and that im indangering my health by being already weak...

[mandangi]

Some of the vegetarians say that in past they were non vegetarians. It is not true. If man is once attracted to non vegetarian, he cannot leave non vegetarian food.

[Surya]

Some of the vegetarians say that in past they were non vegetarians. It is not true. If man is once attracted to non vegetarian, he cannot leave non vegetarian food.

There are plenty of examples of that! I've changed into a veg, after I was 13. But lets not take me into consideration, because you don't know me. But actor Shivakuma, father of the up-comeing tamil actor, Surya. Turned into a veg after his teens. There a plenty of cases, where people, or MEN as you put it, have turned into veg. I know that there are some men that say "After i started eating meat, I've been hooked on it" But that isn't always the case. :)

Regards. 8)

[Bad Boy]

I remember reading somewhen that eating meat in younger years does affect your growth. The average height of a middle european is still going up and they have passed now 180 cm. Some hundred years ago it was much lower. But this is also natural because there was already an up and down in the growth.

I am 179 and I do clearly see that young boys getting hiher and higher. Norwegians are in tall in general and there they found out that the height has to do something with consuming animal proteins.

You will run out of power if you are a pure vegitarian here in the cold. You need instant access to your power station.

[mandangi]

I have even seen some brahmans turning as non vegetarians. I dont believe that non vegetarians turn as vegetarians.

[Yes You]

I have even seen some brahmans turning as non vegetarians. I dont believe that non vegetarians turn as vegetarians.

I am some how getting confused: Brahmans or Brahmins. Or are they all the same?

[mandangi]

Both are same.

[Yes You]

I heard Brahmans are Gods and Brahmins just a caste or the followers/devotees of god or something like that. I only knew that people run amok when they speak of brahmins atleast this is what I told from my past B'friend. May be he did not tell the truth.

Anyway Thanks.

[Querida]

I remember reading somewhen that eating meat in younger years does affect your growth. The average height of a middle european is still going up and they have passed now 180 cm. Some hundred years ago it was much lower. But this is also natural because there was already an up and down in the growth.

I am 179 and I do clearly see that young boys getting hiher and higher. Norwegians are in tall in general and there they found out that the height has to do something with consuming animal proteins.

You will run out of power if you are a pure vegitarian here in the cold. You need instant access to your power station.


again two things evolution and genes...but i can vouch for your argument in saying that they found children who consumed large amounts of fast food matured faster (not necessarily taller) why? They were consuming meat (in this study chicken) that was injected with growth hormones and this in turn was having an affect on the children as well :o ....hmmm well i live in the cold too with a bunch of veggies...a carrot, two tomatoes and a sweet brinjal but don't tell them i called them that :P

[Querida]

I heard Brahmans are Gods and Brahmins just a caste or the followers/devotees of god or something like that. I only knew that people run amok when they speak of brahmins atleast this is what I told from my past B'friend. May be he did not tell the truth.

Anyway Thanks.

Do you mean Brahma?

[Bad Boy]

again two things evolution and genes...but i can vouch for your argument in saying that they found children who consumed large amounts of fast food matured faster (not necessarily taller) why? They were consuming meat (in this study chicken) that was injected with growth hormones and this in turn was having an affect on the children as well :o ....hmmm well i live in the cold too with a bunch of veggies...a carrot, two tomatoes and a sweet brinjal but don't tell them i called them that :P

Querida, I was talking or intended to talk about the rising height of the younger generations. In Germany the average height went up to 4 cm in the last 20 years. You are very right saying that mass production of flesh with hormones sexually matures the children earlier (and antibioticum made bacterias resistent). In Europe they consum meat far more than in India. In summer you can get pork for 2,00 €uro/Kg! But if you buy this stuff you know you buy chemichals. If you buy only bio-products like I do then you eat less but you enjoy the quality. And vegitables during winter are very very expensive. From Tamil shops here you buy any vegitable from India/SL for about 5 € per Kg. I eat more fish, love Salmon but this is a curse too- mass production-> pollution ==> Why people are so stupid about earning lot of money and destroy all and everything. Stupid world.

[Querida]

sad but true :( @ BadBoy

[mandangi]

In Amudalavalasa town in Srikakulam district there is women weight lifter named Pujari Sailaja. She is brahman but she eats non veg for physical fitness. For weight lifters more physical fitness is required. She cannot stop non vegeatarian in any case.

[Surya]

////She is brahman but she eats non veg for physical fitness.////

So? Did anyone see 'Kaaka Kaaka, The Police?' 8) Starring Surya, and Jothika?
Also,
I don't think that Caste or Religion should have anything to do with your chice of being a veg or non beg.

[Sandeep]

////She is brahman but she eats non veg for physical fitness.////

So? Did anyone see 'Kaaka Kaaka, The Police?' 8) Starring Surya, and Jothika?
Also,
I don't think that Caste or Religion should have anything to do with your chice of being a veg or non beg.

I wonder what has kakka kakka got to do with this the topic here :?

Anyway I saw the movie and is one of my favourite movies.

[Surya]

////She is brahman but she eats non veg for physical fitness.////

So? Did anyone see 'Kaaka Kaaka, The Police?' 8) Starring Surya, and Jothika?
Also,
I don't think that Caste or Religion should have anything to do with your chice of being a veg or non beg.

I wonder what has kakka kakka got to do with this the topic here :?

Anyway I saw the movie and is one of my favourite movies.

Sandeep, it does. Would people in thi forum agree that Surya was fairly fit, and has strength. Not by the storyline of the movie, but by his phisical appearance? :)

[Sandeep]

Yes he looked fit.

What happened then?

[Surya]

He's been a vegetarian for all his life. In Real life.

I just wanted to prove that mandangi's idea that the human body needs meat when weight-lifting wasn't excatly right. Surya's been weight training for a while, and been a vegetarian the whole time. Thats an example. :D

Regards.
8)

[Sandeep]

See the link Vegan Weightlifting: What Does the Science Say?

http://www.vrg.org/journal/vj2003issue4/vj2003issue4weight.htm

Summary of the link is that for body building veg diet is better and for weight lifting non-veg diet is better. It also emphasices that the other way round is also easily possible but you need to ensure that in case of vegetarian weight lifters select high protein foods life legumes, soyfoods, and wheat gluten and for non-vegetarian body builder make sure to take care of your body fat.

[Surya]

Excellent Link Sandeep. Thanks. :)

[Sandeep]

B12-vitamin, D-vitamins, long-chained fatty acids, are things are necessary for normal brain and nerve development and are defecient in vegetables.

We get D-vitamins from the sunshine but its not enough. Long-chained fatty acids are are not available from vegetables, only from animal fats (especially fish).

In fact a french patient lost eye sight because of strict veg diet.

But one thing i find is all these studies are based on Non-Veg cultures (Europe and US) and may be the kind of vegetable they eat and the climatic contitions may be different. Also hereditary factors may have a role. At least i can say that about D-vitamins as the amount of exposure to sun-light is more in our case. I know of many Indians having defeciancy in D-vitamins after reaching here where as they had no problem in India

[Querida]

////She is brahman but she eats non veg for physical fitness.////

So? Did anyone see 'Kaaka Kaaka, The Police?' 8) Starring Surya, and Jothika?
Also,
I don't think that Caste or Religion should have anything to do with your chice of being a veg or non beg.

I dont think so too Surya....you should decide to be veg based on your tastes and as a healty life-style choice

[Querida]

that was very interesting Sandeep thanx for sharing that...what you say has reason to it...but then again...it is like writing of history and religion your thoughts and biases are going to steer the topic...if you are happy with turning into a vegetarian you are going to promote it..if not then many people demote it....but i have again and again heard this argument of needing to eat meat to healthily survive in cold climates...i don't know how true this is....

[Bad Boy]

B12-vitamin, D-vitamins, long-chained fatty acids, are things are necessary for normal brain and nerve development and are defecient in vegetables.

I am happy that I had always been on the right track. I have a normal but unusual brain, I hope atleast that you too affirm me this. :lol:

Where do you get this info? I love to eat salmon (It must be Norwegian and not pacific) especially if cooked as mInkuLambu (hot fish curry) or porichchamIn (fried, but not that soft european like), I smell it now at this moment. Salmon has a lot of Omega3-fatt acids/folic acids or something.

And for sothi with the fish head and sour mango and ahaththi Ilai, onions fried in the same oil after the fish, KaththarikAi (aubergine), vallArai chambal and pappadams fried in fresh veg oil I die for. 4 out of these 7 items you don't get always here. Damn, its 2:45 am and I have to run to the fridge right now, I get hungry.

Enjoy your meal!

[Bad Boy]

but i have again and again heard this argument of needing to eat meat to healthily survive in cold climates...i don't know how true this is....

In 2001 an Indian from Mumbai, hello Eknath regards from Germany, came twice here to Germany to work on site and he told me that some big chap from Indian politics was living for a while with his wife in the States and the woman refused to eat non-veg and died. I remeber her to be Nehru's wife. I don't know if this is true or if even Eknath was bound to false info.

[mandangi]

I dont understand why these people bother so much about small creatures. First think about human beings. We need not cry for small creatures death.

[Sandeep]

Nehru was ardent Atheist. I dont know if he was a vegetarian but I dont think he had stayed in US.

[mandangi]

Nehru was not atheist. He gave more posts to brahmans in Congress party and government. Now also there are many brahman leaders in Congress party.

[mandangi]

Not only buddhists. Jains, brahmans, vysyas and sri vaishnavas should also eat non vegetarian well.

[scorpio]

Thank you very much for the advice!!

May GOD bless you with much more humour than what you possess now !! :lol:

[mandangi]

I am saying seriously. Buddhists, jains, sri vaishnavas, brahmans and vysyas must also eat non vegetarian food.

[mandangi]

I dont understand why do they think that non vegetarians are cruel. Most of the non vegetarians do not eat non veg daily. They eat meat once or twice in week. I eat eggs daily but meat only once or twice in week.

[Shekhar]

Mr Mandangi,

Why do you want others to eat non-vegetarian? Because your eat it?!!

[mandangi]

I never said that i dont eat non vegetarian food.

[son]

I am saying seriously. Buddhists, jains, sri vaishnavas, brahmans and vysyas must also eat non vegetarian food.
lol. ok done
The issue is quite complicated.
It is possible to be healthy without eating NV.

[mandangi]

Non vegetarians are more healthier than vegetarians.

[nirosha sen]

The Buddhists that I know say that in their religion they are to eat whatever alms that are given, regardless if they are vegetable or animal based!

Anyway, I've never adhered to the belief that just because one is vege. they are better and more enlightened beings!! We humans, come in all shape and sizes and disposition. Food is sustenance to keep us alive, nothing more!! :wink:

[Rohit]

Nehru was not atheist.

“Nehru was a non-believer who believed all religions are false and the State should not identify with any religion. Nehru's views were the views of an atheist.”

http://www.hvk.org/articles/0603/91.html

Author: L K Advani
Publication: Rediff on Net
Date: June 7, 2003
URL: http://www.rediff.com/news/2003/jun/07spec.htm

[Rohit]

If you have enough protein intake in your regular diet along with other nutrients, there is no need to depend on non-vegetarian source of food. However, most vegetarians lack enough protein intake in their regular diet, and as a consequence, both their physical as well as mental developments may suffer. This is by no means to say, non-vegetarian diet is absolutely essential. Only it takes conscious efforts by vegetarians to provide well balanced vegetarian diet that a healthy body and brain needs.

[mandangi]

Nehru was not atheist. Nehru was was brahman. His daughter Indira Priya Darsini loved muslim person Feroz. Nehru opposed his daughter's love by name of religion. Indira married Feroz by support of Mahatma Gandhi. So Indira's clan use surname of Mahatma Gandhi.

[joe]

//Nehru was not atheist. Nehru was was brahman.//
I don't see any logic in this..A born brahmin can be an atheist..Example Kamal Hassan .As far as I know Nehru was an atheist and his oposition to Indira's marriage is not for relegious reasons,but for political reasons.

[mandangi]

But Nehru gave more posts to brahmans in his party. Now also brahmans are more in Congress party. I dont think that Nehru was atheist.

[joe]

//But Nehru gave more posts to brahmans in his party.//

Congress was not HIS party,i mean he was not the owner of the party..Congress became one man's party only when Indira become congress leader.

There were more leader from brahmin community,ofcourse..but it was not because of Nehru.

[Sandeep]

But Nehru gave more posts to brahmans in his party. Now also brahmans are more in Congress party. I dont think that Nehru was atheist.

You really need to go some serious reading. The only things on which Nehru disagreed with Gandhiji was the use of religion as part of freedom struggle. This he himself says in his autobiagraphy.

Nehru is a very well discussed atheist.

If you read Discovery of India you can see how he tries to see Hindu mythology without the God aspect.

[joe]

//I dont think that Nehru was atheist.//
Sometimes truth might be different from what you think.

[mandangi]

[The only things on which Nehru disagreed with Gandhiji was the use of religion as part of freedom struggle. This he himself says in his autobiagraphy.
I dont think that Gandhiji tried use religion as part of freedom struggle. But one thing is true that Gandhiji opposed conversions of dalits into christianity.

[Rohit]

His daughter Indira Priya Darsini loved muslim person Feroz. Nehru opposed his daughter's love by name of religion. Indira married Feroz by support of Mahatma Gandhi.

Wrong again, Feroz Gandhi was not a Muslim, he was a Parsi.
There are many Brahmin atheists. Brahmins don't have to be theists. It is completely a wrong notion that all Bahimins must be theists. Many of my friends are Brahmin and most of them are atheists. So, Nehru being Brahmin doesn't make him theist. :)

[mandangi]

I think we are deviating from original discussion. Please continue discussions on vegetarian and non vegetarian food.

[Rohit]

The latter idea is much better than the former. Please continue your discussion on the main topic. :)

[mandangi]

There are even people who think that drinking milk is also violence. They are called as vegans. I dont think that milking hurts animals. Thinking that drinking milk is sin looks too foolish.

[NM]

In Thailand, there are buddhist monks who eat non-veg like pork.
I first came across this when I was in one of the east coast states in Malaysia and went to a buddhist temple, hoping to find some veg meal. I was surprised to see they served pork and non-veg in the temple ground...and this was ran by thais.... :wink: :wink:

[Sandeep]

In Thailand, there are buddhist monks who eat non-veg like pork.
I first came across this when I was in one of the east coast states in Malaysia and went to a buddhist temple, hoping to find some veg meal. I was surprised to see they served pork and non-veg in the temple ground...and this was ran by thais.... :wink: :wink:

If you go though the first page of this topic you would find that Budha actually opposed any restriction on non-veg. According to him Sadhus are not supposed to say no to any food given as alams.

[NM]

Yes, sandeep...but in many of the buddhist temples in malaysia, they serve pure veg food....therefore, I was surprised when I came across one..... :wink: :wink:

[mandangi]

Hindu saints do not eat non veg. Buddhist saints eat non veg but buddhism gives more importance to morality than hinduism.

[mandangi]

In Thailand, there are buddhist monks who eat non-veg like pork.
I first came across this when I was in one of the east coast states in Malaysia and went to a buddhist temple, hoping to find some veg meal. I was surprised to see they served pork and non-veg in the temple ground...and this was ran by thais.... :wink: :wink:
I saw in a TV channel that in China also buddhist monks eat non veg. I dont know how many religions permit monks to eat non veg.

[buddha_brixton]

Reincarnation is one basic tenet of Buddhism, and this includes rebirth of humans as other animals, and vice-versa. As a result, many Buddhists do not kill animals, and many also do not eat meat. Other common reasons cited are that killing animals and/or eating their meat are a violation of the Five Precepts and bad for one's own karma.

Most vegetarian Buddhists are not vegans. Vegans don't eat milk or eggs. Chinse and Japanese don't take cow's milk.

Sri Lanka's Buddhist are mainly non vegetarians but they avoid eating meat/fish at the monasteries

Far-eastern Buddhist vegetarian have become extremely creative in imitating meat using gluten, tofu, agar, and other plant products. Some of their recipes are the oldest and most-refined versions of meat-analogues in the world. Soy and pressed wheat gluten (wheat-meat) are very versatile materials, because they can be manufacturedinto various shapes and textures, and they absorb flavourings, whilst having very little flavour of their own (Just like MSG). With the proper seasonings, they can mimic various kinds of meat quite closely.

Some Mahayana Buddhists in China and Vietnam also avoid eating strong-smelling plants such as onion,garlic, shallot, and refer to these as wu hun ("Five Spices"). The theory behind this Buddhist dietary restriction is that these vegetables have strong flavours which are supposed to excite the senses and thus represent a burden to Buddhists seeking to control their desires. Same as Hare Krishna lot.

Some Buddhist monasteries which serve mock-meat (and sometimes non-wu hun) dishes to the monks and visitors. Some Buddhists eat vegetarian only once per month (new moon) or on special occasions such as annual visits to the ancestor's graves.

There are no universally agreed-upon rules for permitted and unpermitted foods in Buddhism. In some regions, it's common for monks to eat no meat, but for the laity to, or for the laity to abstain when they visit a monastery. But even some Buddhist monks will eat meat. The Buddha himself taught that food offered as charity to monks and nuns should not be refused, unless the killing was done specifically for the monks and nuns. It is also common for Buddhists in some regions to believe that vegetarianism is better for their karma than eating meat and in other areas, such as Japan, vegetarianism and avoidance of wu hun foods are not a large part of Buddhism.

[mandangi]

Sri Lanka's Buddhist are mainly non vegetarians but they avoid eating meat/fish at the monasteries. I am non vegetarian. I eat non vegetarian. But i dont support serving non veg food in sacred places like monasteries. In hindu's also majority people are non vegetarians. But they dont eat non vegetarian on festival days.

[mandangi]

I dont know whether Indian buddhists are pure vegetarians or not. But i can clearly say that jains are pure vegetarians.

[buddha_brixton]

Bro

I am just lost here. If I am right, you are saying you are NOT A VEGETARIAN. So why you have to use double negative to say you are not a non vegetarian. JUST SAY YOU LIKE MEAT & IT TURNS YOU ON !!!!!

GOOD NIGHT
sweet dreams & LOTS of LOVE

[mandangi]

I eat non vegetarian but not too much. Eating too much of non veg can cause indigestion problem.

[nirosha sen]

:rotfl: What a Conundrum, you are Mandangi!! Whatever will we do without you, Pa!! :lol:

[mandangi]

Buddhism or hinduism or any religion, eating non veg for a limit is not problem. We should not be too much fond in killing animals for meat.

[Shekhar]

There are many kinds of Non-vegetarians.

Full time
Part time
Over time
Tentative
Opportunistic
Secretive

Mr. mandangi,... Which one are you??

[mandangi]

I eat two eggs daily. But chicken, mutton, fish, prawns and crabs some times.

[blahblah]

Buddhism or hinduism or any religion, eating non veg for a limit is not problem. We should not be too much fond in killing animals for meat.

Wisemen speak because they have something to say,fools speak because they have to say something.

[mandangi]

Bro

I am just lost here. If I am right, you are saying you are NOT A VEGETARIAN. So why you have to use double negative to say you are not a non vegetarian. JUST SAY YOU LIKE MEAT & IT TURNS YOU ON !!!!!

GOOD NIGHT
sweet dreams & LOTS of LOVE
There nothing to fear to say whether we are vegetarians or non vegetarians. Vegetarian and non vegetarian both are necessary for human beings. I dont feel any thing wrong if non vegetarian person suggests pure vegetarian person to eat non veg or pure vegetarian person talk about importance of pure vegetarianism with non vegetarian person. Every one have right to express their own views.

[buddha_brixton]

Dear Friend Mandangi,

Probably in South India most people eat vegetarian food as norm. Vegetarians are not the norm in the west but it is a growing trend. UK has 8% vegetarians 15% semi vegetarians.

We have
VEGETARIANS
Vegans -- No meat,milk or eggs or animal products
Vegetarians -- No meat but milk, eggs OK

SEMI VEGETARIANS
No meat eaters -- No meat but sea food, milk, eggs OK
No Red meat -- No Red meat but chicken.duck.seafood.milk,eggs OK

Regards,

[Sudhaama]

"mandangi"

// I eat non vegetarian but not too much. Eating too much of non veg can cause indigestion problem.//

Irrespective of ... Likes Dislikes ... Sentiments... Orthodoxy... and the like ...

... Mankind is a ... BORN-VEGETARIAN Creature ... Scientifically.

[mellon]

Dear Friend Mandangi,

Probably in South India most people eat vegetarian food as norm. ,

Really?!!!

Which south India, genius?!!! :roll:

Seems like you get the statistics just looking at the map itself with your "blind vision" 8)

--------------


*Mankind is a ... BORN-VEGETARIAN Creature ... Scientifically.*


Mrs. "Sudhaama" Srinivasan:


Is that your discovery or someone else???!!!

Let me know how did you convince the referees and published it???

Or I just have to take "your words" as u seem very respectable human being around here?

[buddha_brixton]

Hi Mellon,

If you want know the statistics about the vegetarians and semi vegetarians in UK check the Vegetarian Soc data

http://www.vegsoc.org/info/statveg90.html

I was in South India 22 Years ago. The feeling I got was, that most people are vegetarians or semi vegetarians.

If I am wrong, Please correct me.

Regards,

[mellon]

The feeling I got was, that most people are vegetarians or semi vegetarians. If I am wrong, Please correct me.

Hi B_B!

I am afraid you seem to be having a wrong notion or feeling. Most of the South Indians are in fact non-vegetarian. 8) 22 years!!! I think it is very a long time ago. Do plan a visit to S I sometime so that u can double-check my statement :)

[Sudhaama]

Mr. Mellon,

// Mrs. "Sudhaama" Srinivasan:...//

My Dear Friend,

First of all I am Not a Mrs... but just a Mr.
Secondly.... I am only just "Sudhaama"... here with... "No Tail"... behind.

And I am surprised to find your .... "Emotional Reply"...

... Why my dear Sir? What is there to get emotional?... Have I under-rated Non-Vegetarian Food?...

... Have I denigrated the Non-Vegetarians... in any manner?...

... In fact I am anxiously looking for.... a Gentleman ...

.. who is INQUISITIVE enough to know the Scientific Truth behind.

// Is that your discovery or someone else???!!!//

No my Friend... It is the Scientifically Proven CONCLUSION... on which I will furnish the justification as authenticated by the Scientists inambiguously.

//Let me know how did you convince the referees and published it???//

It is Not my newly found or founded Theory... but has already been established and published through several Books and Pamphlets apart from Analytical Seminars....

... conducted by the International Vegetarian- Congress.

//Or I just have to take "your words" as u seem very respectable human being around here?//

Oh! ... So Hot You are.. my Dear Friend... We have visited here for adding Pleasure... Not Heat!

And my dear Friend... You need NOT just accept my statements....

... but only after your Logical thinking and Scientific-perceptions...

... You can come to any Conclusion ... Pro or Anti to my Stand...

... True to the Spirit of a Friendly Forum.

But.. If you feel I am "wrong" at any point or stage... Please Point out and Criticise... Quite Welcome.

Now my Primary point of Answer to your Question....

(1) For every God- created Living-Being,... .... He has created alongside.... the Apt variety of Food too.... matching with its .... Functions and Purpose.... of Life on Earth.... Correct?

(2) Suiting to acquire.... its prescribed Food.... change into convenient form for eating... and further to digest it too... the Nature has provided the apt Physical Organs like... Teeth, Nails, Limbs, Saliva, Stomach as well as the well-matching Digestive-System on the whole coupled with the Assimilative innate Mechanism too which varies amongst the Creatures according to its Functions and Purpose of Existence on Earth.... Correct?

(3) It is an interesting Point to observe... that the Horse eats Grass ... but Not Leaves.. while the Elephant eats Leaves Not the Grass... and the Monkey eats only Fruits ... Not the Grass or Leaves... even though all these are the Varieties of Vegetarian Edible-stuff containing abundant Vitamins, Minerals and such other Nutritious Ingrediants vital for Life.... Why So?

(4) Similarly Non-Vegetarian Creatures too are choosy... why ? Suppose we feed them with different Food-variety... why it hates.... or lead to illness... although all are Non-Vegetarian Foods of abundantly rich Nutritious value?.... Why?

(5) Irrespective of the one of the Varieties of Food each Vegetarian or Non-Human-Creatures eat ... all those Specific Vegetarian Species ...... form into ONE Broad Group... by way of its Living-manners and Habits, as well as Inborn Physical-features too... and Similarly to the other Group too.... Is it Not?... How?.... Why?

(6) All the Born Non-Vegetarian Species eat their Non-Veg. Food without any difficulty ... as the Main Dish without any dire Supplements. Whereas Man is able to eat the Non-Veg. Food Only as the SIDE-DISH...and Not the Main-Dish... which is invariably the Vegetarian stuff. Why so?

I will continue step by step after hearing from all of you here.... "Open-mindedly"...

I will be Happy to correct myself if I am wrong and Supplement my Knowledge if I am Lacking.

My Dear Friends... Speak out ... Pro or Anti... Welcome. !!!

[mellon]

Mr. Sudhaama :)

I was not "mad" or angry at you at all. I am sorry if my post sounds so ! :) It is a "curse" from a "witch"! :( I just have to live with it, unfortunately. :roll: So have you :roll:

I badly wanted you to respond to my question, so I sort of "provoked" you so that u would not overlook or ignore my post. :)

And thank you for your long and genuine reply. I will get back to you if there is any disagreement with your view.

Thank you again!

P.S: Sorry that I used a "wrong prefix" to address you :(

--------------
ellOrum ellAmum peRa vENdum (esp. aRivu)!
nammil illaamai illaatha nilai vENdum!

[mandangi]

"mandangi"

// I eat non vegetarian but not too much. Eating too much of non veg can cause indigestion problem.//

Irrespective of ... Likes Dislikes ... Sentiments... Orthodoxy... and the like ...

... Mankind is a ... BORN-VEGETARIAN Creature ... Scientifically.
Dog is born non vegetarian. If it roams in forest it will eat non vegetarian only. But we feed vegetarian to pet dogs. Man may be born vegetarian. But man is attracted to taste of non vegetarian.

[Sudhaama]

Ms. Mandangi,

Why the Man eats or prefers or relishes the Non-Veg. is Not the Question here....

But the SCIENTIFIC-FACTORS behind which I have raised here.

Please reply to those Questions... Pro or Anti !

[mandangi]

As a non vegetarian i support eating non veg. Main attraction of non veg food is taste. So many people eat non veg even it is costly.

[buddha_brixton]

Hi Mandangi,


As a non vegetarian i support eating non veg. Main attraction of non veg food is taste. So many people eat non veg even it is costly.

I have being checking the Indian Food pages on the Hub. Dosa/Idli Samber recepies there makes my mouth water. They are soooo taste food. Who needs meat????
BB

[mandangi]

From my childhood days i am habit of eating non veg food. Taste of non veg food cannot allow me to leave non veg food.

[Sudhaama]

Ms. Mandangi,

Why You eat or prefer or relish the Non-Veg. is Not the Question here....

Indeed ... You like it... and So... you take it... OK.

My Point is the.. SCIENTIFIC-FACTORS behind... which I have raised here.

Please reply to those Questions... Pro or Anti !

Does it mean you will prefer to eat anything if it is tastier or tastiest?

Taste is the Only Basis ... Yes Or No? ...