Education - The best ways and means to get decent education

[nirosha sen]

Please feel free to share your idea of a decent education and learning methods, currently in use, from kindergartens right up to tertiary level!!

Are you happy with the school system in your country or wherever it is you are residing. What's your idea of the ideal????

Our discussion here ought to also include the school buildings, play-grounds, class-rooms to of course, the ubiquitous teachers, without whom schools out!!

[Idiappam]

What's your idea of the ideal????

That the pupil feels that he couldn't have done anything any better!

[hehehewalrus]

This thread is just a curiosity itch. ignore.

Its more like the hungry guy who went to a restaurant, guzzled all the starters, slobbered all over the soup, unabashedly asked for a second helping of the main course, sank his face into the dessert, barely had enough strength to sign the bill, had to be dragged home off the table, and when he got home asked "Why do we need food?"

[nirosha sen]

Ah.....metaphors!! Whatever would we do without them, hmmm?? :D

Figurative speech, proverbs and idioms are all but lost in our grammar books today!! :(

[Idiappam]

You don't seem to understand!

[lordstanher]

Well, altho I feel we've partly discussed Indiaz education system in the ICSE syllabus thread, I still feel its a worthy topic to discuss.......! :D
IMHO (from the 1st thing tat comes to my mind while thinking of this issue), the education system in Indiaz good enuff upto school level.....unless u count certain absurdly tedious subject syllabus, viz. Maths (in ICSE afa I know!).......
But I really hate the standard of higher (college/univ.) education in our country!
Getting into a good college herez a gamble........deliberately difficult entrance exams, reservations ( :evil: ), u name it!
Also the fact tat its poss' to obtain a degree cert. from most colleges even w/out even attending classes/passing the exams if ur rich enuff......! :evil:
Its high time our country improvised on this.....
Glad if ne-one else has nething to say abt this........!

[nirosha sen]

Hmm.....you have your problems over there, Pa!! But still, you do have good dedicated teachers willing to get the job done!

Out here, we have more than our share of misery!! Education has been hijacked by folks with more ulterior motives called politicians! As a result, what we have now is a hatchet job that seems to be fraying!!

Every now and then, there's a policy change. To make matters worse, education is not even in the hands of all it citizens to give a decent input!!

And the icing on the cake is affirmative action policies in favour of the majority!! That really is sweet! We spend so much time revolving around this issue that it just plain saps away any other kind of argument, one could have spent time on!! :(

[nirosha sen]

You don't seem to understand!

:lol: I don't understand droll remarks, huh????!!! Please....... :D

[lordstanher]

Hmm.....you have your problems over there, Pa!! But still, you do have good dedicated teachers willing to get the job done!

Yes tats true mostly in case of the schools (read priv. schools :wink:)........its the higher level (college/Univ.) I was targeting....... :D


Out here, we have more than our share of misery!! Education has been hijacked by folks with more ulterior motives called politicians! Every now and then, there's a policy change.

Hmm....surprised to hear a similar situation abt Malaysia! :shock:
Well, therez politics even in Indian colleges/Univs. (esp. Govt. ones)......main reason y the reservation factor exists.......
& even here sumtimes when the Govt. changes they make new policies, viz. increasing the % of reservation in colleges/univs.....!
Also in many govt. colleges there is student politics as well......aided by rowdy-ism......!

[nirosha sen]

Out here, students are not allowed to make political statements or to demonstrate/picket their feelings for any political ideology!! They are liable to be selectively prosecuted under the Universities Act!!

[hehehewalrus]

Stanher,
when u say education system spell out clearly whether you are talking about Hyderabad or TN or Delhi. There are 2000 universities in india and what applies to one will not apply to another. So take off your tinted glasses, toss out the generalizations and spell out clearly(with examples and a balanced connection between policy-and-consequence) what policies you are for or against. If you are approaching a problem, you should be able to spell out some pragmatic alternatives - not just quote an absolutely isolated incident and garnish your post with meaningless icons like :evil: :x :shock:

I have a big 100 line post but I will reserve it unless you frame your question/crib in CLEARCUT terms. I will not waste my time on jaundiced or myopic generalizations or whimsically random wishes or CURIOSITY ITCHES.

[lordstanher]

Walrus,
Apologies for the apparent frustration tat my posts r giving u!
However, altho u might not be agreeable w/ this, when I talk abt the higher education system, I'd personally like to look at it from a general/overall basis (which I believe, wud not nec. mean tat I'm generalising the whole issue as u feel), rather than talk abt Univs. in just one particular state (eg. AP), in which case I'm sure many wud neway say tat the situation is hardly ne better in colleges/Univs. throughout the country!
OK if u want me to be more specific w/ egs., I'm sure u'll agree tat reservation policies in higher education exist in Univs. throughout the country, be it Hyd./TN/Delhi......only diff. might be tat the % of reservation wud vary from State to State.....unless, perhaps u know of ne particular Univs. in India tat r not governed by these policies (& even if there r, it wudn't make sense to mention them as a positive aspect, as those wud then surely turn out to be isolated cases when seen in a general/overall picture!).......
And as for ur insistence on spelling out effective alternatives instantly, surely its not expected or a rule tat every single person who talks abt an issue here (or ne similar thread) must spell out an alternative for the same?! For tat matter, I havn't seen ne suggestion of 'pragmatic' alternatives (yet) even from NS who talked abt the education problems in her own country in this thread! So do u mean tat make her posts abs. meaningless to read?? Afa I'm aware, the basic idea when discussing/putting forth such issues w/ other ppl. in these threads is tat when one person expresses it, sumone else might always hav sumthing to add or suggest ideas to it, regardless of whether or not every one of them comes up w/ alternatives in the end.......if u can usually come up w/ better ideas/solutions to an issue, tats well & good.....but tat doesn't mean u shud dismiss/look down on sumone who can't!
Nevertheless, if u still feel this thread is nothing but a waste of time based on curiosity itches, do ignore.......good day to u!

[hehehewalrus]

stanher,
in the other thread(women something), u merely quoted 1 in a 1000 events like that Dr.Prakash, kinky Call center gals, etc etc..I am afraid u are leading this thread in the same direction..with the obvious result that it will end in a stalemate and a meaningless war-of-words like that thread.

Instead of pulling out such remote cases and expressing disgust over them, it would be more productive if you present some case studies of problems(with some meaningful stats) and discuss HOW OR TO WHAT EXTENT a certain policy helped solve it and how or why it can be used to solve a similar issue.

Otherwise this thread will be another humungous cribfest.

I dont see a single figure quoted in your posts which betray lack of analysis...you have some substance in your posts but they lack a strong backbone.
Got it???

[Uthappam]

You don't seem to understand!

:lol: I don't understand droll remarks, huh????!!! Please....... :D

Yah! Just an avatar attactive like mine and Niro's is enough to attract attention! We don't need brains!

[nirosha sen]

well, well Newbie Uthappam!! Why do I get the feeling like I know you from another avathar too, huh????? 8)

By the way, this thread was started with the sole intention of sharing basic concerns that many parents like me have. I honestly, have no qualms or the itch to impugn whatever Lord might say as long as its credible enough!!

Who needs statistics here as long as some semblance of substance is there in the argument for or against some issues raised here??? Discrimination, bias or bigotry is something that is intangible and oh subtle, that no amount of statistics alone could quantify it!!

So my request is this, if all and sundry who come by this thread could indeed put forth their mere 2 sens' worth here, then I'm a happy camper for even thinking of starting this thread!! :D

[a.ratchasi]

Niro, as a parent, what are your concerns pertaining to the current education system, besides the constant change in policy, that is?

[nirosha sen]

Ratchasi :D , if we are going to discuss our sweet homeland and its myriad policies, then you know as well as I that we have to get down and dirty, Pa!!

The issues we could always highlight here, is curriculum and its development, for a start. At the home front, we don't really have much to compare to, do we???? When all we've ever had was a single system for the past 30 years with absolutely no competition, only monotony had set in Pa!

Take India and it's various education boards - hasn't it made education viable and thriving and competitive???? We on the other hand, are still pussy-footing around real issues for fear of being branded seditious! It's this circus that I find repugnant ad nauseum!!

[a.ratchasi]

And that leaves us with, err, with nothing else since most of the highlighted were already tackled in the other thread! :)

[nirosha sen]

Sure we do!! :D What's your idea of the ideal???? What should be done to improve the present situation???? Would love to hear from others in the Diaspora too, on how their individual govts. are tackling their teaching methods, co and extra-curricular learning, etc!

How abt Home Learning???? This has not been approved of by our govt. but what abt the experiences of others???? Could it be a sound alternative to what we have???? :roll:

[a.ratchasi]

Niro, as a byproduct of the same system, I would say what we have in hand is indeed commendable. :) During my 12 years of schooling in Malaysia, there wasnt any major change in policy. I still learned Alam dan Manusia in standard four and except for English, all the other subjects were taught in BM.

If I would want to make it any better, then I would vouch for credible teachers.

[nirosha sen]

You guys studied Man and Environment, huh????? Well, it's not there anymore, Pa!! What do you think has replaced it????? Kajian Tempatan???? Nah....couldn't hold a candle, I tell you!

When subjects like Geography, History, Health Sciences are missing in the curriculum, it's just another hatched-up, hodge-podge with neither a beginning or ending to lend continuity!!

[Niranjana]

Geography & History missing? No not all. We had both these subjects until 10th std. I studied in an Indian School (CBSE) in Sharjah. But sometimes I've felt that my cousins (roughly my age) in India are smarter b'coz they have a wider exposure. Ours is a closed environment, though we see more cultures. For eg:, I had Rajasthani, a Sudanee, a Goan etc among my friends.

My mom had always insisted that I learn to read & write Malayalam, our mother tongue, which is an optional subject in school.

[Anoushka]

I did most of my schooling in Madras and then moved on to Kochi. My brother and myself studied in different schools and I used to hate to go to school while he loved his school. The teachers were brilliant in his school and his school had different methods of teaching!

I loved my school in Chennai, the teachers were brilliant. If we had a lesson on glass, we would have an exhibhition on different types of glasses, if we had a lesson on different arrangenment of leaves on trees then we would make a scrap book with different types of leaves, etc. I think the extra effort that the teachers put in to do all this made it interesting for us. Most of us are doing well in life, though we were not rank holders in school!

We were all put on stage at least once a year for something or the other, we had physical training, guides & scouts, NCC, music, art, tailoring, reading and one hour a week spent doing something of our choice like cooking, drawing, needle work, etc.

These days most schools in Madras don't even have a playground :( And all children do are learn everything by heart and reproduce on exam papers! Not many of them can explain things if you ask them though they can answer any question from the book.

We were always encouraged to answer in our own words, which improved our creativity and language!

When I went to Kochi, my new school had no library, no physical education and the only relaxing period that they had once a week was needle work! And I was surprised to see students writing 20 pages for a possible two line answer!!!

If anything got me through my SSLC/+2 it was the training the teachers had given me till my 8th in Madras!

I'd say, forget the books, find teachers who will go beyond just teaching what is in the books and things will definetly get better!

[nirosha sen]

Thanks for the useful bit of anecdote, Annoushka!! That's precisely what I've been looking for, in this thread.

Each of us, have certainly got our individual experiences on what made good learning and what didn't and that certainly makes a good topic of conversation, Pa!! :D

[NM]

My primary and secondary education was in Malaysia. And I always thought we had a good system. I learnt Local and World Geography and History.

When I went to UK to do my First Degree, I appreciated our education system as it taught the European/ English cultures and I was able to relate well and got along very well with the British. The majority of British and European students, however, did not know where Malaysia was in the world map! :roll: They knew Singapore AND Thailand, but knew nothing of that little piece of land between these two countries! I found that hilarious!! :lol: They claimed they knew Thailand because of "drugs n sex" and Singapore, well, cos' it was a famous port and tourist attraction in SEA. One of my coursemates actually asked me if we lived in tree-houses!!True!! :lol: They must have thought Malaysian govt did a major clean-up n dressed us up as civilised people just before boarding the plane!! Apart from the help history n geo did to me, another great thing that the govt did was to emphasise the importance of Maths. We (Malaysians) were always the best in Maths in our class. We realised that most locals hated Maths and it was the most widely 'dropped' subject at A levels..

But, as time went by, I realised that I became less n less proud of the system.. Our system did not teach our self-confidence - our teachers would make us stand if we're unable to answer to their questions. As such, I (am not sure abt others) grew to be very timid and quiet, shy to speak out, say what I thought. But the British students were more outspoken, not shy to voice out and not afraid to answer even if they're unsure! Back home, that would be a no-no as teacher would laugh at you.... :cry: And, the other thing I noticed with the local students was that they had innovative minds - the mind was free to think. In school, we did not have any projects, as such, students were not given the opportunity to think and come up with something of their own!

When I came back, Malaysian system changed and project works were included in the curriculum. I thought that was a good a move. But then, realised that there's no more World History/ Geography. Further to this, students were allowed to select their subject and I have come across amny cases where students later regret not selecting the right subjects to purse their tertiary studies. When I was studying, there were a set of compulsory subjects that must be taken.. And education became very competitive, teachers started giving out name cards asking students to join in their tuition classes if they want to learn more...of course this was not new! Even during my secondary days, I could still remember my Physics teacher taking sick leave, claiming to have severe diabetes and heart problem, only to find him teaching at his tuition centre! Another thing that I noticed was the amount of load that a child has to carry to school! :roll: I remember my primary days, I could run carrying my bag. Poor kids, nowadays, they need trolley bags! And the sad thing is, parents just seem to load their kids with tuition after tuition, education plus music plus art class, etc etc etc etc! I have a friend who sends her 6-year old daughter to an Art Appreciation" class!!

I think there may not be an ideal education system that works for every country, but something could be done to improve the existing system - overloading children will not work. At the same time, schools must give opportunities for children to speak, to think, to come out with new ideas and they should certainly know the 'world'...the history n geography...by learning world map or Babylon it will not make less Malaysian! :? We should also not forget that children must enjoy their childhood too.... playing and mixing make them human and tolerant. :wink: I really don't know about the latest edu system but looking at the kids and hearing my friends complaining makes me wonder............And I certainly support ANU's last Line!! :D

[hehehewalrus]

a.r,
paatheengala unga friend eppadi velaavariya post senjirukiraar? :)

[NM]

Walrus,

I thought you knew AR and I are fraternal twins?? :lol: :lol:
Anyway, this is all about sharing expriences and thoughts, there's nothing wrong in that...

Have a great day laughing at my post! :evil: :lol:

[nirosha sen]

Thanks for sharing NM!! Precisely what I had in mind, when I started this thread!! As a mom, I'm getting increasingly frustrated to have our education in this country hijacked by people, who have little knowledge on what a sound education is all abt!!

The latest was a letter in yesterday's NST. A parent had written that just after orientation week for this year's freshies, an announcement was made that all the Sciences and Maths courses are to be taught in BM!!

Imagine the frustration of students who thought they could sigh with relief when they completed their 6th form and made their way into our local Us, for this shock treatment????!!!!

Someone mentioned that by the year 2008, they'll revert back using only BM as the sole medium of instruction in all schools! I wonder if this includes vernacular schools as welll???!!! :shock:

[NM]

Really Niro?? They want to revert to BM?? And in Uni, Science n Maths in BM again??? What's wrong with our govt?? They're becoming more n more fickle minded!

In the 70's they changed from English medium to Malay. Then, the Malay spellings were 'fine tuned' - eg Bolih became Boleh, "bacha' to 'baca' etc ..
Late 80's saw Bahasa Malaysia re-named to Bahasa Baku which was re-named again to Bahasa Melayu and now?? Is it still called Bahasa Melayu or Malaysia?? Then, the Malay language was injected with English words - Innovation (innovasi) n many many more...so much so that anyone speaking English will be able to understand Malay very well!!
Then, before Dr M retired, he came up with English med again.....Badawi supported that ...was that just a show?? And now this..! By the yr 2008, back to BM?? Why, is Anwar coming back? Or Najib becoming the PM?
We're not progressing .......deteriorating is indeed a fact!
I won't be surprised if Govt decides to close down all Cheinese and Tamil medium schools!! And, won't be surprised too, if they ask all Malaysian citizens to adopt Moslem names! :twisted: And I bet this year, you'll see a Form 5 achiever with 20 straight A's...
:lol: :lol: and that too being a bumi... :wink:

[nirosha sen]

Oh! I'll believe anything in the grapevine these days, Pa!! After the way they punished our MIC rep. and denied our kids their right to be in CSMU, it's anybody's guess on how much worse things can get!

They said, one reason why CSMU, was de-recognised was the ration of 8 students to 1 lecturer! Whereas out here in the local teaching hospitals, it was 32 students to 1 Clinician!! Apparently, all this is taking place right here, in Klang and Uni. Hospitals!!

I wonder what the ratio is in Indian medical colleges???? Anybody out here to enlighten us, folks????? :?

[hehehewalrus]

niro u are putting ur daughter in a tamil school to "protect ur culture" and now ur cribbing about ur govt protective policy about its language, very funny :lol: :lol:

[nirosha sen]

Vernacular primary schools are in existence due to their own unique history, which is already enshrined in our Constitution! So, in a plural society, its existence should not be questioned, more so by non-citizens living elsewhere!!

My child thrives in a school where she is exposed to 3 different languages, and I'm proud of it! If there are policy changes affecting the learning of Maths and the Sciences in our institutes of higher learning, then the repercussions are dire! We are certainly, bearing the brunt of fickle-minded policy changes often!

Walrus - Since you don't have anything concrete to offer this thread, I really think you should scratch your curiosity itch elsewhere! Your droll remarks, dripping with sarcasm, amuses only your goodself!! :x :x :x

[hehehewalrus]

the education system in Indiaz good enuff upto school level.....unless u count certain absurdly tedious subject syllabus, viz. Maths (in ICSE afa I know!).......
Getting into a good college herez a gamble........deliberately difficult entrance exams, reservations ( :evil: ), u name it!

stanher,
It took me several days to search the correct links to substantiate my views. To begin with I will touch upon a policy that was controversial to begin with and now has interesting ramifications - reservations! I wish some really knowledgeables like geno are here to talk this over...cribbing about an issue without exploring its effects is quite pointless.

Now I used to be a VERY RABID ANTI-RESERVATIONIST for a good number of years, until i encountered some ex-antireservations-turned-moderates who showed that reservations are a necessary evil. I am now a moderate who has realised the truth that reservations cannot be wished away and less reactive to its deleterious effects(atleast till the day I get to putting my kids in a self-financing institution!)

The biggest opponents to reservation have been the forward(by birth) community which claim that inspite of their merit they dont get opportunities. Lets take a closer look at their performance - (Warning: These stats will produce heart attacks to those with a closed mentality!)

http://www.hindu.com/2004/08/23/stories/2004082308900400.htm

In TN, where 'forwards' have to compete in the 31% quota, here is how the rankings went:

1) The first 14 ranks in the medical admissions went to BC/MBC students

2) Out of the top 400 rankers, only 31 are from FC.

3) Out of the top 100, breakup is like this: BC-79, MBC-13, FC-6, SC-2.

4) Only a mere 28 out of the 356 open competition seats were FCs. Out of these, only 6 got into the top 2 colleges

5) The last ranked FC candidate got an overall score of 295.74; the last BC rank was 294.26, the last MBC rank 292.13, the last SC rank 287.56 and the last ST rank 274.13. Note that the difference is less than ONE MARK! This is a HARD HITTING STATISTIC THAT PROVES THAT THERE IS NO SIGNIFICANT ADVANTAGE GAINED BY ANY NON-FC DUE TO COMMUNITY, so the theory that reservation lowers quality of medical students is pure hogwash!

<Flame mode on> So much for the roof-shaking cribs of the forward community that they are being made scapegoats in education :D They should wake up to the bitter truth that in TN every other community has become much more professional and industrious and toss their cribs to the trash can. It is only the nonperformers who use this excuse - the toppers and the outstanding(V Anand for instance, or the many FCs in IITs) never crib about this policy :D <Flame mode off>

What these statistics show is that if reservations had been in effect 100 years ago, then a more egalitarian society would have materialised in Tamil Nadu a few decades back itself!!!

I studied the impact of affirmative action in the South African cricket team after 1999 - mandatory inclusion of colored cricketers - though 77% of the SA population are black, SA began their cricket history since 1928-29 and till 1969, there was not a single black who made it to the south african team. Even after they changed their apartheid policies, only 2-3 chaps could make it. Dr.Ali Bacher defended the affirmative action program saying "THE ISSUE OF EQUALITY IN SELECTION APPLIES ONLY IF THERE IS EQUALITY IN OPPORTUNITY". Thats a basis which holds true for education in India as well.

The scenario is not much different in neighboring states like AP for instance - over 20% of IIT students are from AP and majority of them are 'non-forwards' :P

Now to counter the usual whines:

Whine #1: Why should the taxpayers money be spent on improving the lot of oppressed communities?

Do you know the various forms in which your taxes are used? Consider the IIT/REC students for instance. They enjoy unmatched, world class facilities(funded by your Dad's taxes of course!) and more than half of them prefer to settle abroad. More than half of them do NOT give back anything significant to India as such - dont bother about those who eventually return to India to settle - they come back with crores of wealth and buy posh complexes in T.Nagar/Indiranagar to spend their days in peaceful isolation. Since you are least bothered by such segments who eat up your taxes, why must you crib about some underprivileged chaps who get an education to earn something like 4k - 6K a month all his life?

Whine #2: Reservations bring in caste wars/hatred etc..

Not entirely. If you use them wisely like say strictly all OCs must be FCs, BCs must be BCs and so on..., you will find a healthy competition WITHIN the communities - this would ensure the cream of each community segment gets to gain, and in fact would actually become a tool to recognise merit.
IMHO, the way the reservation model has gone in TN, I wont be surprised if TN becomes the first state to ELIMINATE reservation, thanks to the normalisation in standards today.

Caste wars occur irrespective of policies - they occur coz as a nation we are intrinsically racist and narrow-minded. While several AP guys goto IIT, many of the local engg colleges in AP are Reddy strongholds or Chowdhury strongholds. Despite the presence of so many IT companies, an IIM, an IISc in Bangalore, institutions like HAL/ISRO are run on the basis of affinity to a Hegde community, GSB community etc..we indians have more faith in building bridges with our communities as a security measure rather on working for common good, thats the plain truth for you. So you see, its not just a pro-reservation state like TN that is caste conscious, every other "progressive" state in south india is. And its more rampant in North india.

Will sit back and wait for more whines :)

[hehehewalrus]

Some rib-tickling statements from Stanher.... :wink:


unless u count certain absurdly tedious subject syllabus, viz. Maths (in ICSE afa I know!).......

Omigosh!! this is really hilarious - I am curious to know on what basis you diss Math. Maths may be personally irksome to you but have you have any idea as to how many degree courses depend on a solid foundation in Math? And for all you say, Math is THE subject where the average Indian schoolkid does well all through his school life. Considering all other subjects(His/Geo/Lang/even Science) are no-brainers which you can ace by crude mugging, your assault on Math is amusing.



Getting into a good college herez a gamble........deliberately difficult entrance exams

"deliberately difficult" is one hilarious phrase! Are you saying entrance exams should be free gifts, lol? They're an excellent way to sift the cream from the junk, No Sir, plzz keep away from commenting on exam standards!!



Also the fact tat its poss' to obtain a degree cert. from most colleges even w/out even attending classes/passing the exams if ur rich enuff......!

Hilarity #3! You talk as if 99.9% of the population have the contacts and financial muscle to do this. Your "FATAL ATTRACTION FOR QUIRKY DETAILS" is evident from the examples you pull up :wink:

[hehehewalrus]

LS,
by the by dont take me in the wrong way. It isnt my intention to mock you for any reason. I appreciate your concerns and ideas but you need to fill some holes in your arguments instead of jumping to conclusions.

[ssanjinika]

hehewalrus,

Could it be that FC's have quit competing so much since they feel their best course would be to get into some IT related field and settle down abroad.I think the trend is generally moving towards other fields and away from the traditional courses of medicine and engineering and the foward community in particular opt for this because of the difficulties involved in getting into a govt college. I have also seen a lot of FC canditates by birth produce a BC or MBC certificate...its not that difficult to obtain one if you have a few thousand bucks I guess and it def beats having to pay hundreds of thousands of rupees in fees to the private institutions.It could be that a percentage of the BC's /MBC's who got into the govt medical colleges were actually FC's incognito :P

[Idiappam]

Our 'very own' Indian system is always the best. Should reimplement the gugukulam method of education!

[hehehewalrus]

hehewalrus,
It could be that a percentage of the BC's /MBC's who got into the govt medical colleges were actually FC's incognito :P

Hi sanjinika
this is very very unlikely and chances of this happening are microscopic - the penalty is very severe for such an offender, he will be jailed for years and ALL his certificates confiscated. Besides given the natural anti-FC feelings in TN(a state where everyguy knows the entire family hierarchy of his neighbor), the non-FCs will waste no time in informing an event like this to the authorities. :D

Hence no FC will dare to do this, but for a clever 1%.

[ssanjinika]

good points walrus :P
I just brought that up coz when I was going to start college(abt 8 yrs back) a few clever ones did manage to get MBC certs..of course then the situation in TN was a bit diff with some one else in power :lol:

[stranger]

I have also seen a lot of FC canditates by birth produce a BC or MBC certificate

That is certainnly a "smart way" of getting rid of the reservation and its "ill consequences"!


its not that difficult to obtain one if you have a few thousand bucks I guess and it def beats having to pay hundreds of thousands of rupees in fees to the private institutions.

Unfortuantely, that would falsify all the data provided as it has been corrupted by manipuating the "fc-bc-mbc-data".


It could be that a percentage of the BC's /MBC's who got into the govt medical colleges were actually FC's incognito :P

Thanks for giving some specifics. Things always look different from the REALITY when it is shown in a "big picture"! 8)

[hehehewalrus]

good points walrus :P
I just brought that up coz when I was going to start college(abt 8 yrs back) a few clever ones did manage to get MBC certs..of course then the situation in TN was a bit diff with some one else in power :lol:

The biggest beneficiaries have been the middle classed BCs - they could not only enjoy the new-found benefits usurped from the FCs but also maintain a subtle suppression of those below them.

[Thiru]

Please stay away from the class reservation in our system and the fc/bc/mbc issue..

[ssanjinika]

Knew Mr.Thiru was going to say something like that when I saw his name :lol:
Sorry Thiru sir...I meant no harm nor did I intend to hurt anyones feelings.It was just an observation on my part on our education system.
Anyways getting back to the topic of education...I think that the CBSE syllabus is a lot better than Tamil Nadu(since I studied there and dont know much abt other state syllabuses) state syllabus.I studied in a school which followed the Matriculation pattern till class 10 and State board pattern for 11th & 12th.Though the exams were easier I faced difficulties in college where the students from CBSE background seemed to sail through the subjects.Your views on this..
Niro just out of curiosity how is the education system in Malaysia?? I mean is it more like India where emphasis is given on a few core subjects like Math,Science,CompSc or Commerce..or is it more like the US where the students are allowed to choose what ever subject interests them?

[j.chenkalvarayan]

in india the toughest board is the punjab and haryana board.

next in line is the cbse .

i did most of my schooling in cbse board.

i don't know what makes me say this. but something in me tells me that the easiest board is the kerala board.

[hehehewalrus]

Please stay away from the class reservation in our system and the fc/bc/mbc issue..

in what way was the system twisted to make any insulting or derogatory remark on anyone? :? :? :?

You have no problems with emotional and unvalidated remarks passed on a system but seem to have an issue with a balanced analysis that seeks to spell out the pros and cons of the same system :? :?

[j.chenkalvarayan]

and i have reasons for saying this. don't ask me what are those. an average bengali student is better than his counterparts from the rest of the country.

[stranger]

Knew Mr.Thiru was going to say something like that when I saw his name :lol:

Hey! u have learnt quite a bit, here! :lol:



I mean is it more like India where emphasis is given on a few core subjects like Math,Science,CompSc or Commerce..or is it more like the US where the students are allowed to choose what ever subject interests them?

Most of all we need to teach our teachers, there is nothing wrong in admitting that "they dont know" when they really dont know the answer to a question brought up by an intelligent student. They make me laugh at them when they try bypass the simple answer, namely, "I dont know" :rotfl:

Their silly ego should be thrown away first. Too much of expected respect is so unwarranted and unnecessary. The students should be trained that "manipulation" is a crime and "plagiarization" is unforgiven and they should be properly taught to record their data seriously with proper date and time and signature using PEN and not pencil! 8)

[Thiru]

Please stay away from the class reservation in our system and the fc/bc/mbc issue..

in what way was the system twisted to make any insulting or derogatory remark on anyone? :? :? :?

You have no problems with emotional and unvalidated remarks passed on a system but seem to have an issue with a balanced analysis that seeks to spell out the pros and cons of the same system :? :?

I dont have anything against your balanced analysis or the emotional remarks of another person.. What we dont want is another thread with communal and fc/bc/mbc issues being discussed.. you know better where this thread would end up at..

[hehehewalrus]

What we dont want is another thread with communal and fc/bc/mbc issues being discussed.. you know better where this thread would end up at..

But that is exactly where your role begins - to cut out all the crap WHEN it turns crappy and NOT before that. Otherwise you will be like Indian police - let full fledged rioting one day and next day give shoot-at-sight orders on civilians.

Considering that all postors in this thread have 700+ posts, one would expect a higher degree of give-and-take attitude among participants of this thread, which is why I bothered to write something here in the first place. You need to give that much trust atleast in your regulars :)

I appreciate your preventive measure but the question is, where is the consistency? There are 1000s of Vijay v Ajith, Ajith v Simbhu, Simbhu v Vijay threads in Film section - how come those threads can survive and this one cant?

[Thiru]

"But that is exactly where your role begins - to cut out all the crap WHEN it turns crappy and NOT before that. Otherwise you will be like Indian police - let full fledged rioting one day and next day give shoot-at-sight orders on civilians."

Having seen these things before, its better to warn about something before it happens.. The attitude here is not "let it happen and we will clean the mess".. Its stay away from sensitive issues so as to not create a mess.. Again, you've seen nice threads being digressed into communal/caste issues in this forum..


"Considering that all postors in this thread have 700+ posts, one would expect a higher degree of give-and-take attitude among participants of this thread, which is why I bothered to write something here in the first place. You need to give that much trust atleast in your regulars."

I have trust in the regulars and thats the reason I'm explaining the issue and allowing the thread to continue rather than simply closing it..


"I appreciate your preventive measure but the question is, where is the consistency? There are 1000s of Vijay v Ajith, Ajith v Simbhu, Simbhu v Vijay threads in Film section - how come those threads can survive and this one cant?"

First of all, do not compare this forum with the Tamil film forums...That's an entertainment forum where half the talk is idol worship... I've been cutting down on the number of vijay vs ajith threads and its a slow process...

[nirosha sen]

Thanks for the consideration, Thiru! Appreciate it.

Sadly, since many here are from the Indian sub-continent, it's only presumed that it's abt the Indian education system alone. But I beg to differ on this subject matter being the sole prerogative of only a few regulars alone.

Do not get me wrong! I as well as other Diaspora members do love to read into your insights as you criticise your systems, however, my reason for even starting it is to simply explore on the many options laid out there.

Certainly, have no intention of turning this site into a caste battle, but nevertheless, would love to read more as we rise above the pettiness, while we analyse the pros and cons.

[rajraj]

Nirosha: I thought the article in the link might be of interest to you.

http://www.usaweekend.com/05_issues/050731/050731education.html

You should get some idea about how different the systems are in the US and Tamilnadu (India). More later!

[nirosha sen]

Thanks Raj!! Appreciate it! :D

By the way, does anyone out there homeschool their kids???? Care to share some of your experiences, please???? :D

[nirosha sen]

Read an interesting mail from a teacher in today's NST. A teacher was lamenting on how insolent today's teenagers are to their teachers.

When in class, they are so rude and loud, that the teachers' patience is tested to the limit. She belonged to a generation that would greet their teachers in the corridors or any part of the school, with courtesy. Kids were seen to behave obediently!

I share her laments too!! As volunteer teacher in a primary school, I notice that it's the small ones who are more polite and cooperative. But as they mature into the secondary schools, they turn into monsters beyond recognition. Teachers cringe in fact to enter class-rooms, when they are heckled day in day out, by unruly students.

Is this phenomenon peculiar to only M'sia or is it the same elsewhere too???? :roll:

[rajraj]

Nirosha: There is 'home schooling' here. Those are parents who do not like the public schools or who think their children are extraordinary, brilliant etc. They generally engage tutors. They forget about developing social skills that come with attending a public school or even a private school.

[Anoushka]

in india the toughest board is the punjab and haryana board.

next in line is the cbse .

i did most of my schooling in cbse board.

i don't know what makes me say this. but something in me tells me that the easiest board is the kerala board.

I did my 10th and Pre Degree in Kerala. I should say I hated the history (Kerala history, Indian history and world history) in my 10th.

It wasn't easy but it wasn't tough either!

I studied in one of the best schools in Ernakulam and there was no physical education/training.... the only thing we had to do was study study and study! As long as we reproduced what was in the book we were sure to get good marks! This was about 15 years ago though! I am not sure if things have changed or are still the same.....

[j.chenkalvarayan]

-deleted-

[Anoushka]

J.C,

I am not saying you are wrong. All I am saying is that it was easy to get marks there if you reproduced everything in the books, other than that, you did have the regular subjects there... I did four years of my schooling there (9-12th) and continued my Engineering in Coimbatore. I did not find any difficulty doing my engineering as I had covered the basics like anyother student in Tamilnadu!

Again as I said, things might have changed now! Maybe the syllabus hasn't changed in Kerala in 15 years and has gone way ahead in other states!

Thanks,

PS: You can call me by my name... no need to address me as "mam" :)

[Sanguine Sridhar]

Talking about tamizh nadu stateboard....I studied in Matric so the ssyllabus was okay for me till xth.When i joined B.sc comp sci (madras univ) arnd a decade ago our syllabus had Fortran,Cobol(which is useful if u r n Mainframes),Pascal.Which is nowhere usefull...I think they have changed the syllabus only 3 yrs ago...Its okie for me..Just the think the status of 2000-2002 pass outs..When the market was heavy with Java,C# ppl came out with Pascal,Fortron qualifications :shock:

[rajraj]

http://www.usaweekend.com/05_issues/050731/050731education.html
More later!

Nirosha: I hope you had time to go through the article in the link. I will give you my observations/opinions.

In India(Tamilnadu) the high school curriculum is designed to prepare students for college unless the student opts out. It used to be called academic course.
In the US, high schools provide general education and there are schools called 'prep schools' or college preparatory schools for the college bound . These are generally private schools charging a tuition. Public schools are free. To meet the needs of the academically precocious or bright college bound students, the public school system has what is known as GATE program (Gifted and Talented Education). The criteria for admission into such schools may vary state to state. In my state it used to be an IQ of at least 120 and a few other requirements. The students who get into these programs are given the opportunity to take a variety of college level courses (Advanced Placement) in high school. Other schools may offer a few. If a student is willing to take more than the normal load and also summer courses, high school requirements can be completed in 11 years instead of the normal 12 . But, many spend the additional year taking college level courses which places them ahead of others , sometimes in second year instead of first year of college.
There is no such provision in Tamilnadu since all are treated as college bound. The result is a very high failure rate. It was about 50% when I finished high school. It is also very stressful to the students who have no intention to go to college.
I don't know what you have in Malaysia to make this discussion worthwhile! :)
More later, if needed! :)

[nirosha sen]

Raj - Thanks alot on the article on college admission! But I have to admit, that as a mom of a 13 yr old, I'm very much in the dark abt how the US system works. Good thing, I have a good friend like you, who's willing to show the ropes a bit!

Could you please elaborate on the rudiments first????? Like how many years of schooling it takes in the States??? After which, what are the options available to students????? Do people in US, pay their way thru college/universities or is there a special scheme made available to citizens???? And if one is not a citizen, what happens???

Sorry for being such a Dork! But, I belong to a family, where it's just polite to be silent while looking on interestedly when the relatives come acalling!! Most of the time, I prefer not to ask too much, particularly when it comes to fees structure as there are folks who do not believe in discussing their finances!!

Hope you understand! :D

[nirosha sen]

As for the education system of M'sia, I'm afraid it's quite a can of worms!! Nevertheless, I will try, hopefully with the help of Ratchasi and NM and Nov, to put into perspective what's going on here and how the likes of us, are coping!!

[rajraj]

Raj - Thanks alot on the article on college admission! But I have to admit, that as a mom of a 13 yr old, I'm very much in the dark abt how the US system works. Good thing, I have a good friend like you, who's willing to show the ropes a bit!

Could you please elaborate on the rudiments first????? Like how many years of schooling it takes in the States??? After which, what are the options available to students????? Do people in US, pay their way thru college/universities or is there a special scheme made available to citizens???? And if one is not a citizen, what happens???

Sorry for being such a Dork! But, I belong to a family, where it's just polite to be silent while looking on interestedly when the relatives come acalling!! Most of the time, I prefer not to ask too much, particularly when it comes to fees structure as there are folks who do not believe in discussing their finances!!

Hope you understand! :D

Thirteen year old daughter? :) Now, I understand your concerns.
These days you see a number of international students getting their undergraduate education in US . I met one from Malaysia. I think he came to a leading university on a scholarship. Yes! Most of the leading universities offer scholarships to outstanding students from other countries. They are also interested in cultural diversity. At least one has a policy of admitting one or two from each country from which they receive applications. They must meet the same standards the American residents are required to meet. You might want to consider American education for your daughter.
I will give you my suggestions even though it may sound like a chat between us for others! :) My guess is that most of the hubbers are young parents with pre-school children!
Today, it costs about US$40K a year in leading private universities. Still, I have seen a lot from India!
Nothing wrong in learning about financial requirements. I suspect your daughter is in middle school (grades 6,7 and 8 here). You have time to prepare.

[nirosha sen]

Thanks for that info. Raj!! Nope, I do not think it's merely a dialogue between us as education has always been the key to alleviate us from the depths of poverty!! :D

So, you met a M'sian on a scholarship, huh???? :lol: There are thousands of them, Pa!! They are all beneficiaries of pan-handling, I might add. A system that gives preferential treatment under the guise of affirmative action!! One that gives a lot of parents like me, much anxiety as we fear for the future!!

My kids - a son is 13 and a daughter 7, are the ones I tutor with this huge burden of an unknown bleak future ahead of us!! Sure, it's the same for everyone else out there, but when the playing field is not level; aided and abetted by Bureaucracy, it's cause for alarm!! :cry:

[NM]

So, you met a M'sian on a scholarship, huh???? :lol: There are thousands of them, Pa!! They are all beneficiaries of pan-handling, I might add. A system that gives preferential treatment under the guise of affirmative action!! One that gives a lot of parents like me, much anxiety as we fear for the future!!
Niro, I was a Govt scholar, right from A levels to Undergrad in UK. Yes, we were selected because one of our parents was a civil servant or ex-CS. In our year, 50% of the scholars were nons (that's a huge number, don't you think so?). Why? Cos' the following year was an election year! The intake of nons the following year was only 90% .....and 2 years later, this program by PSD was abolished! Whatever it is, I am grateful to the govt for giving me the scholarship (then!) and all the nons did very well ion our studies and life! :D :D I feel sorry for the new generation.....I don't think this priviledge will ever be shared among nons again :cry: :cry:

[ziaxxxxx]

i would like to know whether anyone knows about any teacher training course or degree ( either from indian university or or other western countries) which is taught online or through correspondence / distance learning ??

i have tried searching on internet but many degrees / diplomas either dont have any value whatsoever Or require previous work experience.

kindly helpme out here if you know of anyone doing these courses

[nirosha sen]

So, you met a M'sian on a scholarship, huh???? :lol: There are thousands of them, Pa!! They are all beneficiaries of pan-handling, I might add. A system that gives preferential treatment under the guise of affirmative action!! One that gives a lot of parents like me, much anxiety as we fear for the future!!
Niro, I was a Govt scholar, right from A levels to Undergrad in UK. Yes, we were selected because one of our parents was a civil servant or ex-CS. In our year, 50% of the scholars were nons (that's a huge number, don't you think so?). Why? Cos' the following year was an election year! The intake of nons the following year was only 90% .....and 2 years later, this program by PSD was abolished! Whatever it is, I am grateful to the govt for giving me the scholarship (then!) and all the nons did very well ion our studies and life! :D :D I feel sorry for the new generation.....I don't think this priviledge will ever be shared among nons again :cry: :cry:

Sorry to have hurt your feelings, NM!! Many of the Nons have worked their butts off to qualify for a helping hand, Pa!! But, I was referring to the present state of affairs, which is getting from worse to worst!! And now, with the New Agenda plans, things are looking even dimmer by the day!! :(

[rajraj]

So, you met a M'sian on a scholarship, huh???? :lol:

Nirosha,
This student is a Malaysian Tamil who could not get into the college he wanted. But, he was offered a scholarship from a leading US university. I mentioned it to let you know that American universities offer scholarships to attract the brightest, wherever they come from.

[rajraj]

Zia,
University of Phoenix offers M.A in Education through their online program. But, it is mainly for full time workers. You might want to browse their website.

[NM]

Sorry to have hurt your feelings, NM!! Many of the Nons have worked their butts off to qualify for a helping hand, Pa!! But, I was referring to the present state of affairs, which is getting from worse to worst!! And now, with the New Agenda plans, things are looking even dimmer by the day!! :(Hey..Niro...you didn't hurt my feelings at all!! ......I was just making a comment.... :D :D And, to add to what i've written up there..most of the Nons came back and are working in Malaysia and tax payers while majority of the Bumis have settled down in the Uk or elsewhere........and some bonded students have even been released !!!! When I requested for extension to continue with my PhD (i was offered a place), i was told to come back!!!!! Grrrrrrr!And our govt keeps saying there are milions of loans yet to be settled etc etc etc but still continue to send them overseas...! :twisted:

[ziaxxxxx]

thanks raj raj...

[rajraj]

Nirosha: FYI.

http://www.usaweekend.com/05_issues/050814/050814makeadifference.html

[nirosha sen]

Thanks again Raj!! :D Yup, I am in awe of these parents!! What wonderful work they do!! That's what I like abt this gung-ho spirit that these American parents show. I've seen it here, in our international schools too!!

They inspired me so much, that I managed to jumpstart something in my son's school too! When he was in Yr 1, several PTA moms and I, got together and started a reading programme called, "The Book Buddies"! It was quite simply sparing abt an hour each day of the school week to help kids read in English.

Those moms in the international schools rallied around to our aid, and donated some excellent readers to help our school kids, all 40-odd of them! I'm proud to say that, that reading class is still running eventhough I had moved several years ago! :D

[rajraj]

Nirosha: FYI.

http://www.boston.com/news/education/k_12/articles/2005/08/16/poll_shows_adults_aversion_to_school_math/

Now, you know why Tamilnadu(India) alone has the capacity to produce more engineers than the entire US !

[nirosha sen]

:lol: Maths can be bad memory for some!! Hey, that's me!!

One reason why I hate to venture into my son's Modern Maths book. That's where and when my terror started!! :(

[rajraj]

Nirosha: FYI.

http://www.hindu.com/thehindu/holnus/001200508200312.htm?headline=Doctoral~degrees~decl ine~in~US

Here is a great opportunity for Asian students to get higher education free. The US universities are hurting for bright students to work on their Ph.Ds. Unfortunately, very few of the brightest arrive here go on for a Ph.D! :(