Anniyan - Patriotism

[ganesh79]

[tscii:c83704aec7]This movie is no way close to "Indian". Indian had a very sensible script and was in tune with those times. Things have changed a lot in India over the past 10 years. It is no more reasonable to compare us with Japan or Singapore or any developed nations, while they are looking India as a possible threat to their economy, intellect and military. India may lack the glossiness like clean roads, buses, railways etc. But inside of it is neat and strong. The director of the movie has no idea what he is talking about. He might have just gone to other countries as "tourist" and presents his opinion. I have worked in US in key areas for the past five years and my view is completely opposite to him. Countries like US have highest under-age drinking, juvenile crimes, divorce rates, under-age sex, suicide rates, and drugs and lastly, they kill millions of people in the name of (fake) wars. Just because they have some neat clean roads that doesn't make them superior to India. It will take sometime for us to achieve such outside glossiness. The most important part in a building is the foundation, not the facade. India is surely laying a strong foundation.

The movie directors should just stick to making masala movies and not attempt to present wrong picture of ourselves, in the name of "message". Learn from US media. How they project themselves? They never portray them as bad, even though they are the worst kind of people in this world. What's wrong with our directors? An Indian is the enemy of Indian. Why didn't the director show the deft handling of the Tsunami situation by our administrators and politicians? The so called developed country did not warn us of possible Tsunami, though they had information about it. Is it not a selfish attitude? It is after all Shankar who popularized and glamorized the pseudo-American culture in the name of "Jeans". With a hypocrite like Sujatha, who secretly adorns western culture, this is quite impossible in the movie.

This said the movie is good in graphics and had good direction, typical of a Shankar movie. Otherwise this is a below average effort. Vikram's acting is average. He is just better of the lot, not an absolutely good actor. The music is good. Shankar should choose some good neat entertaining subjects for his future movies - it is ok even if it is like boyz!

Stop mis-propaganda against India. We are doing fine![/tscii:c83704aec7]

[ganesh79]

And btw.. I am new to this forum!

[MADDY]

yaaa i agree totally with ganesh79.....India is doing really fine.....infact i had posted somewhere in ARR forum that india just needs to improve in sports and penetrate more in culture/music in the west....if this happens, then India will be THE country by 2020 excelling in all fields........

shankar shuld have taken a much more sensible stuff than this one........with the kind of disinvestment going on, within 10-15 yrs no politician will be able to earn thru govt. agencies......so corruption will also bcome non-existent.......he has to think of something really different from now on.....

[UnlimtedMeals]

[tscii Countries like US have highest under-age drinking, juvenile crimes, divorce rates, under-age sex, suicide rates, and drugs and lastly, they kill millions of people in the name of (fake) wars. Just because they have some neat clean roads that doesn't make them superior to India. It will take sometime for us to achieve such outside glossiness. The most important part in a building is the foundation, not the facade. India is surely laying a strong foundation.
....![/tscii:d9357aeebd]


The above post is the most misguided I have ever seen in a very long time.

divorce-
First of all divorce rates are low in India because Indian women dont have a voice in this country and they cannot walk out of a marriage because of the social taboo. This patriarchal culture has nothing to offer to an "average" woman(pls dont mention outliers like Indira gandhi, JJ etc)

child abuse-
Believe it or not India has the highest child abuse. Read yesterday's Hindu. Again our media does not report

juvenile crimes and sucide-
Again you are wrong. India has the maximum occurence of both and India today also carried a cover story on why India has the highest suicide rates.

under-age drinking-under-age sex-
point accepted. This is also because of the social taboo. this time it is for good. However, we have other problems where the man drinks and comes home and beats the wife and starves his children. So dont boast abt this in anyway

children married to dogs/goats/pigs-
will occur only in a country like India. Before we call ourselves an emerging nation, we shud look at our grassroots and rid problems such as dowry, setting brides on fire, gangraping dalits as panchayat punishment.

the (fake) war-
I do not wish to protray my side on the war, but the country feels that it had the military might and does not have to bow to anybody or make sacrifices in its national interest and security. I dont know whether I agree with this though.

drugs-
where else in the world can you go and stand opp to loyola college and casually buy ganja from some low-life who sends his kids(who should be going to school) to sel Ganja.(yes.. inspiration.. kaaka kaaka).. its so fuc**n easy to buy Ganja in India and the laws are nowehere near the substance control laws in the US.

Tsunami-
yea The US people had some unquenchable desire to see some third world people die in masses so that they could have a toast. So after knowing abt the tsunami approach, they decided to purposely withhold information so India would be hit. Only someone as misinformed and deluded as you could come up with such a sick and cheesy allegation.

Shankar popularied "Jeans"-

Umm I'm not sure if someone actually started wearing JEans because of this movie and its name. If so, then those people dont even deserve to be human and I dont care if their culture is imperialized.

Mete out judgement to whites?-
are you kidding me? How can you make a movie like that? All shankar wanted to say is that in Indian we blamed public servants. Now in this movie let us look at ourselves as the common public and see how we could improve before we point our hands to politicians. So this is people like me and you and the local guy on the road who spits because he does not give a damn and it wont cost his life. When people from our country can go in mass to countries like malaysia and behave responsibly why cant they behave the same way in India? I think that too is a message in the film.

[Movies]

Ganesh,

You are right when you say India isnt as bad as it sounds like. But kindly refrain from bringing in other countries and races into this forum. NO POLITICS!


UNLIMITED MEALS,

I cant beleive you; just to support One lousy music composer (HJ) and a faltered movie by a good director, you have gone to the extreme of degrading INDIANS! The guy was right ONLY INDIANS PULL INDIANS FEET! Be a good indian before a loyal fanatic!


Shankar made big time errors in this movie. Anyone in TN could have seen Madans Thirai parvai on VIJAY TV this week. He pointed all of em out to shankar and shankar tried to explain them in vain. This guy Madhan is jus fantastic, he knows how to point out flaws without hurting any feelings!

[UnlimtedMeals]

My above Rebuttal has no reference to music, music director or HJ, I dont know why you think I defend these. It is people like you that are associating the music and its creator to the actual value of the movie. And this time it comes out from your post.(Quite like Rumsfeld sliiping up all the time and making politically incorrect statements mistkingly linking Iraq to 9/11)

I never put down Indians. I am bringing up issues that are actually not well spoken of in our society. I dare any of us to deny what I have mentioned.

I am not a frog in a well working in an IT company, owning a two wheeler and eating idlis in saravanas and watching movies on weekends, owning a color LCD cellphone with free incoming, and living a jolly life and saying India is shining and all that . That kind of india where STD Booths, internet telephony, multiplexes, pizza joints, cellular hubs, pubs, bars, discotheques, theme restaurants, cocktail hangouts, cofee pubs are infested are only in the city and it is only probably 6-7 % of the entire India. The condition of the vilages and the interior parts of our country (especialy, karnataka, up, bihar, rajasthan, mp, andhra) are still horrible to say the least. Women have no say in the family and the men decide everything for a girl. I know this is changing in cosmopolitan cities. But I am talking abt the "REAL" india in the rural belts which constitute India's maximum population.

Please dont make sweeping allegations and if you really want to argue please present your arguments with some reasonable statistics.

India is still no.130+ in the Human Development Index and way behind some lesser known african countries.

I am an Indian and proud to be an Indian. However that does not mean I have to turn my back against our problems. I hate to sit in the comfort of ignorance and discount the real problems and quoting the internet boom and tech advances in the cities as proof of our "development"

More hilarious were the references made by my previous poster where India is viewed as a military might. We are an awesome military, but nothing compared to the super 8. If you want to call me unptariotic.. go ahead.

[Movies]

I can say authentically most of your stats abouth the Indian Demography are absolutely wrong!

Go take up any of the lates WHO publications and see for your self India doesnt have those things u stated it does!


The only social issue of Major concern is Child Labour, but thats a problem of an uprising, unbalanced economy!

Unlimited meals your thinkin within your quota of 20 rupees per meal!

DO NOT DEGRADE INDIANS!


And I will not reply to anythin other than anniyan in this page, if you wanna sort out ur opinions ur welcome to PM me!

[UnlimtedMeals]

Percentage of Indian population living below $2/day 79.9 %

Source: http://hdr.undp.org/statistics/data/indic/indic_24_1_1.html

Human Development Index(HDI) Rank: 127

Source: http://hdr.undp.org/statistics/data/indic/indic_16_1_1.html

The sources above are United Nations Development Programme

Why dont you rid yourself of this bigotry and spend a couple of minutes researching things on the web before you hastily write such gibberish. First I give a Hindu link and then you say that that article never calls Anniyan a super Hit. Very clearly in Bold letters at the bottom of the article it classifies Anniyan as a super-hit based on Cost and Revenue. You probably did not understand the article or you never bothered to read it.

You said-->"I can say authentically most of your stats abouth the Indian Demography are absolutely wrong! "

I want to see some authentic sources from you then. I can back up all my statements.

[UnlimtedMeals]

And I will not reply to anythin other than anniyan in this page, if you wanna sort out ur opinions ur welcome to PM me!

Writing some nonsense without any backing and running away refusing to oblige argumentation does not really go a long way in helping someone's forthrightness.

[MADDY]

sorry NOVji......if someone talks that India is doing bad then i have to reply (esp after watching swades recently :D )......

unlimited meals....r u an Indian???if u r then dunt waste time in collecting useless stats by Human rights commission and posting it here......try to change this country by contributing in ur small way.....no use in complaining, we need to change this country ourselves........and god forsaken if u r in a foreign country then pls dunt talk like this- wat will they think of us........unga statsa patha, 10 satyajit ray padam paartha madhiri irukku.......

if u want india to be as glossy as US then be like a US citizen who has voted the tyrant of 2000's-Bush (who killed so many innocent iraqis and has started a never ending terrorism rage in iraq) back to power.....that's patriotism- they did not want world to realise that they oppose their pres.........

hey guys if u want we can start a new thread for this arguement in Miscellaneous section as HJ fans and NOV are getting irritated here :D .......

[ganesh79]

Percentage of Indian population living below $2/day 79.9 %

Source: http://hdr.undp.org/statistics/data/indic/indic_24_1_1.html

Human Development Index(HDI) Rank: 127

Source: http://hdr.undp.org/statistics/data/indic/indic_16_1_1.html

The sources above are United Nations Development Programme

Why dont you rid yourself of this bigotry and spend a couple of minutes researching things on the web before you hastily write such gibberish. First I give a Hindu link and then you say that that article never calls Anniyan a super Hit. Very clearly in Bold letters at the bottom of the article it classifies Anniyan as a super-hit based on Cost and Revenue. You probably did not understand the article or you never bothered to read it.

You said-->"I can say authentically most of your stats abouth the Indian Demography are absolutely wrong! "

I want to see some authentic sources from you then. I can back up all my statements.


United Nations is not even as independent as our O.Panneerselvam and you trust their findings! God bless you.
I too don't want to discuss this anymore in this forum, but anywhere else!

[alwarpet_andavan]

PEACE!!!
Some thoughts/opinions....

1) If i see a problem in my water-pipes, wiring etc in my house, i need to accept them as facts and call the plumber, electrician etc as required and get the problems fixed. So, the first step is acknowledging the problem. Merely pretending that my house is in perfect order won't help. My house might have a fabulous paint-color, it might have a very good vaasal but the things which matter more are the plumbing, electricity etc.
In this context, i agree with Unlimited Meals that we have real problems, irrespective of what the "India shining"-lobbyists would want us to believe. This should not be mistaken for lack of patriotism - Gandhiji didn't start the struggle without/before accepting the fact that there were problems - with the British as well as with ourselves. Bharathiyar, Rajaram Mohan Roy, et all were first disgusted with the societies they lived in before starting their reforms.

2) I agree with Ganesh and Maddy on the Iraq thing and American policy in general and disagree with Unlimited Meals on this, but i'm not sure if its relevant here.

3) IMO, no one, including the state, has the right to take anyone's life nor is killing going to be a solution (though its unavoidable sometimes). That's just a simplistic, naive, myopic and impractical "solution" (if i might call it that!).

4) About the movie itself, i thought it was a bad attempt, lacking in originality or artistic value

[Cinefan]

Well,we all know 'India Shining'did not work, not because it was not shining,it was/is but the percentage of ppl for whom it shined/shining was/is very small.Even for them there are day to day problems which cannot be shrugged off like the lack of good roads, of uninteruppted electricity/water supply,of good drainage system,of working bright street lights,of good law&order,of smooth flowing traffic,of officials who do their duties on time without expecting additional payment etc etc etc.

In a vast country like India with a burgeoning population,how is all this going to happen?Good rulers,administrators,workers are all part of this soceity,they are not coming from outer space.There is a malaise in soceity which is reflected in their attitude&behaviour.This can be corrected only by the people themselves(I,you,others).So there is nothing wrong in the story line of Shankar but the execution left a lot to be desired.Also Shankar's solutions are very simplistic&impractical.They make for good viewing but cannot be followed.

Indians in general cannot be called patriotic simply because there is too much divisions in terms of caste/subcaste,language.We are more proud of being Tamilians,Kannadigas,Malayalis,Bengalis than Indians.It's only the occasional Cricket match or natural calamity which binds us.Even that pride is not very strong because we seem to have no commitment in keeping our street clean,paying our taxes on time,following rules,identifying&voting for a honest hard working person etc.

With so much USP's going around here :D does it make any sense comparing ourselves with other countries?Let's set our house in order before praising/denigrating others.

[UnlimtedMeals]

Maddy

The reports are from United Nations and HDI is a Index accepted by independent states in UN conferences.

That being said,

ganesh79..

there is no other metric now that independant states use except the UN which is by far the most non-partisan and widely recognised agency. I have written research papers and you can see that in the research field, the academia treats UN statistics as the most credible rather than sources from individual countries. Therefore your argument and your analogy to O. Paneerselvam has a big hole.

In other words, if you cannot trust UN statistics and would still like to believe that Indians are living so well and not 79% are living in less than $2 a day, then go ahead.. turn a blind eye to our problems and call yourself patriotic by doing so.

But I request you to back up your statements with data and credible sources and not write "opinionated" statements that are riddled with questionable judgement.


Cinefan-

I agree with every single thing you said. India is shining in places. I totally agree with that. But the percentage of India that is Shining and part of this new century misguided euphoria is very very low and unfortunately it does not represent India at all! Great point.. This is exactly what I have been trying to say. Our growth is big in parts, but averages are pathetic.

alwarpet_andavan

Thanks for your post too. I wish all of us thought like your first point. We have problems but when we raise our problems some people shut our mouths by calling us unpatriotic. We have to first recognize that these are problems. And then we have to seek a solution.

Finally,

Maddy-I have been trying to do my part in helping our country. I do not wish to state here what all I have done in monetary acts and non-monetary acts since that will only go as much as to stroke my ego. But whatever I have done, I am confident it is atleast a drop in the ocean. Trying to silence my criticism by attacking the patriotic psyche is just akin to War opponents in America who are labeled "Unpatriotic"

Overall, thanks guys for such an engaging debate.

[ganesh79]

Well,we all know 'India Shining'did not work, not because it was not shining,it was/is but the percentage of ppl for whom it shined/shining was/is very small.Even for them there are day to day problems which cannot be shrugged off like the lack of good roads, of uninteruppted electricity/water supply,of good drainage system,of working bright street lights,of good law&order,of smooth flowing traffic,of officials who do their duties on time without expecting additional payment etc etc etc.

In a vast country like India with a burgeoning population,how is all this going to happen?Good rulers,administrators,workers are all part of this soceity,they are not coming from outer space.There is a malaise in soceity which is reflected in their attitude&behaviour.This can be corrected only by the people themselves(I,you,others).So there is nothing wrong in the story line of Shankar but the execution left a lot to be desired.Also Shankar's solutions are very simplistic&impractical.They make for good viewing but cannot be followed.

Indians in general cannot be called patriotic simply because there is too much divisions in terms of caste/subcaste,language.We are more proud of being Tamilians,Kannadigas,Malayalis,Bengalis than Indians.It's only the occasional Cricket match or natural calamity which binds us.Even that pride is not very strong because we seem to have no commitment in keeping our street clean,paying our taxes on time,following rules,identifying&voting for a honest hard working person etc.

With so much USP's going around here :D does it make any sense comparing ourselves with other countries?Let's set our house in order before praising/denigrating others.

It is a well known fact the something "developing" means something not perfect and not evolved fully. But, it is not same as something "going down". We have been steadily progressing forward for the past few years. Anniyan itself is a testimony to this. 10 years ago were the directors able to make a movie with such a graphics indigenously?
Now a days movie makers' budget is minimum 20 crores. They fly to Tulip gardens, empire state and the interior of egypt so freely. We have to accept that we are going forward. One should not make money by selling the problems in india in the name of art.

I remember a scene in Jeans. A white doctor would make a biggest mistake of doing a surgery on wrong side. Our hero would just raise a voice little bit, then a team would be formed, they would "casually" discuss this mistake and next scene they would rectify it. Very next scene our heroine would offer thanks to our "soft" hero and then duet! It's a movie directed by the same Shankar , who, if only it happend in India, would have shown the hero turning into a serial killer killing all the doctors in India! What kind of partisanship is this? If Shankar wants to suck the confused desis living abroad and the high-class Indians living in India but owing allegiance to somewhere else, let him do it. But, not at the cost of degrading Indians.

[Crab]

India's military might is a myth

I don't know where you guys got this theory that big is equal to great! Wake up. Hypothetically speaking, in any future war, Persian and Thai armies on either side of the country may find it quite easy to subdue Indian army within weeks.

By living in denial, you can't become more patriotic than me.

:P

[Crab]

India Withering

Despite the fake grandeur of Bollywood, the republic is now so weak it may be overtaken by sub-Saharan Africa by the end of the first decade itself. New babies have always outnumbered new jobs. Scarce resources like water are already a political juggernaut between each race. Indoctrination has curbed leadership. Oligarchies are emerging already in each industry. The Union government is on auto-pilot. It prefers to cling to power and have a laissez faire approach. History is repeating itself.

Welcome back to 18th century no-holds-barred wilderness where the fittest only will survive.

[ganesh79]

India Withering

Despite the fake grandeur of Bollywood, the republic is now so weak it may be overtaken by sub-Saharan Africa by the end of the first decade itself. New babies have always outnumbered new jobs. Scarce resources like water are already a political juggernaut between each race. Indoctrination has curbed leadership. Oligarchies are emerging already in each industry. The Union government is on auto-pilot. It prefers to cling to power and have a laissez faire approach. History is repeating itself.

Welcome back to 18th century no-holds-barred wilderness where the fittest only will survive.

Nostradamus re-born? Good theme for Shankar's next movie! Enough scope for graphics, stunts and more importantly foriegn locations.

[UnlimtedMeals]

Nostradamus re-born? Good theme for Shankar's next movie! Enough scope for graphics, stunts and more importantly foriegn locations.


Ganesh79, Instead of trying to be "funny" by coming across as cynical and failing to do the same, let us try to respond to each poster with dignity and effective orchestration of sound arguments.

Crab, you have posted a brilliant concept. "Living in denial".. how beautifully you have termed. I am repeatedly saying this. Let us not try to prove to anyone we are a super power. we are miles away from that. Let us first accept a problem. There is nothing wrong in us having the problems our countrt is facing. First, we must acept them and then we must work towards solving them. But constant chest-thumping euphoria about highly limited and highly concentrated niceties of liefe that this new century has entailed is counterproductive to any progress!

Ganesh79,
Replying to two points you made.
Showing a foriegn doctor or a foriegn citizen erring in their way of life and punishing them does not sound like a great idea to educating our masses on responsibility and duty. In fact SHankar should be praised for his decision to show that even these advanced countries have their pit-falls. Did you expect Prashanth to take revenge on the doctor? It sounds inane to me.

Your other point of using a medium of art and making money by showing the problems of India, I disagree wholesomely. The money-making part does not warrant any explanation. However a director such as Shankar should be commended for going against the norms of "Love" stories and boldly showing discrepancies in our society.

Infact I personally thought Anniyan was a step ahead in this because I am not too sure of a politician would be willing to change watching Indian since they have so much to lose, but a citizen of our country can definitely change by watching Anniyan. When I say "change", it can be something as minute as not spitting on the road anymore or using proper means to dispose trash.

[Thiru]

well, the hospital scene in Jeans reminds of another hospital scene picturised in India.. The movie is Ramana and the doctors try to treat a dead patient and make more money and the end result is Hero taking a different sort of revenge against the doctors.... In Ramana, director has to take an approach of hero black-mailing the doctors of taking them to court which is quite unrealistic in today's India.. The same is being done in Jeans in a different way and solved in a different way... My point here is that a corporate giant or a hospital giant has the power to do anything in our Judiciary setup... whereas in the western countries its much more different... Consumer court is being used in Indian movies alone whereas its being used in day-to-day life in western countries... Being patriotic doesnt mean you need to hide the pitfalls that lay in your country...

[ganesh79]

Anniyan takes revenge of a fictitious brake manufacturing company CEO. Who will take revenge against the real Union carbide CEO, who is living scot-free elsewhere? Anniyan won't get infurited for this either. You may argue that this (Union carbide) is also a figment of my imagination. Not kill, atleast mark a protest? No. I have no UN statistics about this, but this incident, people say, happened atleast in the vicinity of India. As the old saying goes, if you do a crime do it big, not silly. May be this the inner meaning of Anniyan. I have been watching all of Shankar's movie. He seem to ridicule "certain Indians" and always praise the foreigners and "certain other Indians". You are here justifying it. I am not a anti-Shankar. After all, I have watched Indian and Muthalvan umpteen times. I liked those movies for their script and making, if not for thier conent. But, Anniyan stands out as crap in all these departments, no doubt. If he thinks using some tongue twisters like MPD would appease today's tamil audience, he is at mistake. Tamil Nadu is now home to some bright techies, docs and entrepreneurs, with his movies themselves being discussed in wikis and blogs. Either he should grow up or we should go down for his next movie!

Anyways watch Anniyan, make it a hit and let Shankar come up with more such intelligent efforts. May be I will go for a second show and help the cause!

[MADDY]

all those who think India is doing bad please read this.....

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/1160519.cms

see, agreed many ppl. live under poverty line and a very few are ambanis in India but u have to understand that India is transforming from "Mixed Economy" to "Capitalist Economy".....this transforamtion will have its ill-effects too.......esp in poulation like this, it is bound to have bad effects......India will bcome a heavily lopsided economy in the future....so we need good govts who can channelise these resources to poor as well.......

[UnlimtedMeals]

Thiru,

Good point! I wonder when it will become easy for Indians to hold these giants accountable

Ganesh79,

I agree with Union carbide incident. It is very sad and the apathy shown by the parent company now is so sickening. Most sad thing is the way in which the victims are living their lives. They are bening victimised even more by the bueuacracy of the Indian government which has eaten up all their aid and has still not given away some of the aid due to deep red-tapism. Bashing Shankar for not making that a movie material is wrong. Shankar tried to show in Anniyan how we all could be responsible citizens and help keep pour roads clean, have respect for rules and value humans and human life. Are you going to disagree on any of these? However developed we are, I think in the cities some people lack any kind of civil sense!

Maddy,

Accepted with your point too. We need a good govt. More than that I think we need good citizenry. You and me have to be good citizens, pay taxes, abide the civil law, promote responsibility and awareness, directly or indirectly help our economy(directly by being a responsible consumer and indirectly by way of NRI investments). We can definitely pat ourselves for all our achievements today. Nothing wrong. But my call is that let us not turn a blind eye in the name of patriotism to all the problems that are plaguing our nation today. And least of all, let us be reasonable towards a film-maker who showed how we can do things that are even in trivial ways helpful to establish a good society!

In fact Shankar did not even ask of our citizens to throw away our riches and interest and clean the "drainage". In our every day life, he wants us to be law abiding citizens(like paying stamp fees for land registration, following traffic rules). We are not doing a favor to our country by doing these. It is our duty and nothing less than that.

[ganesh79]

Developed countries? This is just a myth. No country has developed in right moral way. Every developed country plundered, killed, cheated several other countries (including India) to reach this status. You call this a development. I would prefer to remain as we are than to qualify in this "benchmark".

[nilavupriyan]

the reasons for killing is simply absurd in anniyan
INDIAN is hit becoz the reason for killing is so wonderfully described especilly in one scene using manorama.infact we would get a feeling that we should kill him.
but in anniyan killing the people who are somberi(charli)is really annoying to see.instead of anger we feel sorry for the persons killed(even hitler wont do it).if that is right vikram can also be killed for being dhathi. :lol: :lol:

[Crab]

Sub-Saharan African republics put together have attracted more sympathy, FDI, food, arms and aid than India for being honest about their weaknesses. Their output too is rising faster.

South Africa accounts for one-third of African factory output while Nigeria accounts for one-third of African farm output.

Check out the real ranks of economies.
http://www.worldbank.org/data/databytopic/GDP.pdf

[Crab]

Shankar's facts are correct but his interpretations, rationale and solutions are incorrect. For instance, he was correct in saying Malaysia was poorer than India as late as the seventies.

Now, Malay wages are atleast 7 times that of India and 20% above Russia - the former superpower. This dramatic rise did not happen bcoz Malays suddenly became smarter and ambitious. It was mostly one man's dream - Mahathir. He provided vigorous leadership to this multicultural society. An oral contract seems to persist between the competing races. Bhoomiputras take over polity while Orientals take over economy. Such leadership was missing in other Malay republics - Philippines and Indonesia.

Incidentally, the richest Tamil in the world lives probably in Malaysia (not TN).

Shankar effectively demonstrated in Anniyan that violence is the best way to resolve national ills. His heroes deploy Saudi-style summary executions that are nauseating and escapist instead of talking about the benefits of vocational education that moves millions from farms to factories.

[UnlimtedMeals]

He also clearly mentions that it is because of the fact that nobody would kill for spitting on the road or trashing public places that people do such petty things with nonchalance and disregard for civic amity.

Ganesh79,
It is true that the developed countries all plundered the now underdeveloped countries to reach where they are. In fact this is discussed as the now famous 'Lifeboat' Ethics.

But countries like Malaysia and singapore dont qualify in your point. Malaysia if for anything, was invaded by our very own Indian(south indian) kings. And this is to those freaks who go on saying India never invaded other countries. South indian kings have invaded all over south -east asia and the Angkor-Vat temple chronicles some of these plunderinsg I think.

If you want to say ineffective things like 'I am happy where we are' in the name of sentiment (that we typically see in tamil films) nobody stops you. But that does not make your and my country any better than what it is today nor will such an attitude go in any way towards alleviating our problems.

People like you should first be open-minded and see what is happening in our country rather than pointing fingers at other nations. After all these posts I have diminishing hope that you will come out of your denial. I dont have problems if you do or do not. I am concenrned about the million other youth in our country that need to acknowledge our problems and work towards its riddance.

[truth]

I think Anniyan is just waste of time because we are good humans.

[MADDY]

crab......India is a huge economy.....Malaysia does not list anywhere near to India.......Malaysia has better civic infrastructure,better health conditions but that doesent make it bigger than India.....INDIA IS HUGE, my dear.....infact Indian economy is bigger than Germany,Japan and Italy-g8 countries.....

unlimited meals, do u have any gud point abt India and indians????shankar thappunnu sollita adha appadiye follow panringa......India has the largest BPO industry in the world and fastest growing IT industry in the world- do u know that????y dunt u give credit to them....even in tsunami case our CM did a commendable job in rehabilitation work whereas Srilanka just struggled with their work.....come on guys, dunt paint the picture so black......

[nilavupriyan]

crab......India is a huge economy.....Malaysia does not list anywhere near to India.......Malaysia has better civic infrastructure,better health conditions but that doesent make it bigger than India.....INDIA IS HUGE, my dear.....infact Indian economy is bigger than Germany,Japan and Italy-g8 countries.....

unlimited meals, do u have any gud point abt India and indians????shankar thappunnu sollita adha appadiye follow panringa......India has the largest BPO industry in the world and fastest growing IT industry in the world- do u know that????y dunt u give credit to them....even in tsunami case our CM did a commendable job in rehabilitation work whereas Srilanka just struggled with their work.....come on guys, dunt paint the picture so black......
you r right.see we are 100 crores of people.mind it.it will be a very slow process for us to go at top.but certainly we are improving at correct speed.shankar is such a person who tries to show he is a great director.he doesnt want a good story to be told in a beautiful way.may be indian is good.gentleman is nice.there too he did some child work by doing graphics.

[lancelot]

UnlimtedMeals

dude u r realy good... u gave it nicly to Ganesh... am not an Indian so i hav no say in this...

but think of it in this way......
shankar doing the actoins in Anniyan like in Matrix..... COOL
the songs in the movie r realy COOL.
Vikram's acting is COOL.

if i was an indian.. hmmmmm. i'll b proud of my country..... thinking that the movie's r at a Hollywood standerd (in a way)..

if u think this movi is bad... then u should come over to Sri Lanka an see how our movie's look like. so stop complaining. enjoy the movie

Respect - UnlimtedMeals
u r realy stupid - Ganesh

hehe
:D

[ganesh79]

What is your point? I am an Indian and I didn't like both the movie as well as what it says.

[ganesh79]

And yeah unlimited and other india-bashers..don't you think now Shankar is wrong?

[lancelot]

wow!!! wat an Indian u r......... Ganesh

hehe
:D

[ganesh79]

And we handled Tsunami without much of foreign assistance too....

[UnlimtedMeals]

[And we handled Tsunami without much of foreign assistance too....

Whew! Alot of posts flying around!

Yep that was a great move by India. I am so proud that they refused foriegn aid. Sadly the move was criticized in some American dailies as arrogant, but I think it was the right decision by our PM.

I will stop here and make this post context specific.

[ganesh79]

You compare malaysia and s'pore to india. s'pore is of size of madras. Does it have 5 nuke bombs? DO they need an army? It is just a business center and it may not even qualify as a country. Malaysia, dude, they have developed a little bit in the past few years and I am not sure if it is a solid development that will stand the test of time.
Malaysia's IT backbone is dependent of India. And why silly M'sia, even US IT giants like Microsoft and IBM are dependent on India. Open up your mind first Mr. Unlimited! Why not compare vatican city with India?

[Thiru]

Folks, please do understand that hubbers in this forum are from all parts of the world (particularly malaysia, singapore and srilanka) and its not good on our part to bring down a particular country or degrade it when discussing about India and the issues brought up in Anniyan..

[UnlimtedMeals]

[quote="ganesh79]Why not compare vatican city with India?[quote]

In the field of debating this is a classic example of what is called "argument through absurdity"

Once again, instead of me spoon-feeding indicators and articles all the time to you, please go and look at per capita indicators. malaysia and s'pore are small in size but better yet, their development has reached everybody in the country because the development had a down-up approach where it started in the greassroots. In our case the richer are getting better and the poor are not growing in the same rate. So however big our economy is our per capita indicators are dismal.

Yes agreed that population is a big issue to us. But not something that we canot deal with. When we are so utterly careless in our basic civis sense like not littering the road how can we even talk about development?

[UnlimtedMeals]

Folks, please do understand that hubbers in this forum are from all parts of the world (particularly malaysia, singapore and srilanka) and its not good on our part to bring down a particular country or degrade it when discussing about India and the issues brought up in Anniyan..

If I had written anything that resembled degradation of another country(which I dont think I had) I duly apologize for the same.

[kidils]

People here are critisizing Anniyan too much, only because it had something to say. If shankar made some crap oridinary love or action movie then no one would be complaining.

Extraordinary things always face criticism.

[ganesh79]

I am not aplogizing too. Half people here are degrading India, but not want to degrade the country where they "just live"!

[ganesh79]

See the attitude of people.. they want their country to be not even degraded in a forum. But if it comes to India, even if it is a 3 hour movie like Anniyan, they will enjoy India-bashing. Then someone will argue that one who bashes is the true patritot. One who doesn't is a enemy of the state? Anyways, if I had kindled the patriotism in Unlimited and others, then I am happy too.

[ganesh79]

I have travelled extensively and studied enough. I don't need anyone's indicators either.

[UnlimtedMeals]

Huh?

Can you elaborate your post Ganesh79? It just went over the head.

First of all I apologized. I dont know why you have to quote my post and say "I am not apologizing too"


there is no right for me to point fingers at other countries and degrade them. But yes I can point at my country and mention is serious problems. As I have been termed "india-basher" for doing that well and good. I will march on.. but I will not bow down to stupidity in the name of patriotism.

By the way, Why are you writing in an agitated manner? Its hard to understand what you write sometimes.

[ganesh79]

It is not that I am handicapped to present articles and indicators. After all, what you presented would themseleves be obtainable from "google". It won't take much time for me to search, dig and find a study that praises or scolds India. Only that, I don't really like my arguments to be based on "popular statistics", "sample study" and "survey by an agency".

[UnlimtedMeals]

I have travelled extensively and studied enough. I don't need anyone's indicators either.

LOL..

Even the most erudite Phds cannot submit a paper or present a finding or an argument without indicators.

Are you trying to have some fun by showing off as so ignorant or are you really being serious?

Your statement above is a very arrogant statement. Read it twice, take a deep breath or better yet read after a few days. You will see how silly it sounds.

[ganesh79]

Yes. Arrogant people are the need of the hour in India.

[UnlimtedMeals]

Never did I present anything as my "own" finding. Yes it is common sense that you can google indicators and as long as they are from respected sources you can use them and tahts what I did.

But hear this.. I had to even go to the extent of showing statistics because guys like you were not willing to shed your bigotry!

[UnlimtedMeals]

Yes. Arrogant people are the need of the hour in India.

There we go again!

:lol: This is getting endlessly awkward and insane :lol:

[ganesh79]

Answer me this you Mr.Erudite. How can you trust a study from an agency that doesnt' have any clue what's going on Iraq. Is presenting studies the aim of UN or controlling the war? If you are unpartisan and bash India, why cite UN, which is the most inefficient of all? This is what I exactly termed as partisan attitude, in one of my earlier posts.

[UnlimtedMeals]

Linking the attitude of an agency on a war fought by independant nations to the effectiveness of the statistics it report is absurd.

In any journal/global conference/state sponsored forums UN statistics are highly respected and is infact considered the leading indicator.

Are you telling me you dont trust India is ranked 127 in HDI because of UN's non-intervention in Iraq War? How easy it is to call that indicator fake and say "Im Indian and My India is leading and not doing as bad as these UN folks make it out to be"! Please dont run away from the truth. Talk to any developmental economist and they will agree with the UNDP stats.

[NOV]

Guys

1. Pls do not "quote" the entire post when repsonding a particular point. The posts become ridiculously long and is visibly irritating. Everyone will read all posts, and most of the time would know what you are responding to.

2. Generally criticism of own kind (in this instance, country) is accepted, while criticism (non-positive) of another, is not. That is what Thiru was saying. You dont have to bash another to make yourself feel good.

3. Criticism of own kind should not be taken as bashing. It is just self-inspection. Improvement can only take place after introspection. Denial will not take one any where.

[NOV]

Some of you have refered to Malaysia in your posts.
Let me offer some food for thought.

1. Malaysia is much smaller than India and thus easier to manage. But you can't carry on forever with this thought. Who was it who said, show me one man who can be changed and I will change the entire nation. A country begins with the individual, then a family, a community, a village/town, a city, a state and finally a country.

2. Malaysia is all nice and lovely - from the outside.
Not many people know of the rot inside. Of how minorities are discriminated against, how who-you-know is more important than what-you-know. In fact, we are just a bubble waiting to burst.

3. India needs to be proud of its democracy. We dont have such independent press here. Everyone kowtows to the big boss - the ruling malay party. In fact, the government is supposedly made up of all races, when actually it is UMNO that throws pittance here and there for the non Malays. In fact for the non-Umno too.

4. Due to its heavily tipped policies, there is a severe brain-drain in Malaysia; the government is now attempting to bring them back - by dangling carrots.

5. Finally, the grass is always greener on the other side.

Maybe Shankar is sending a message in Anniyan. Maybe not. But remember that it is a story at the end of the day. And Anniyan is a mentally unhinged person - so quite impossible to justify his actions.
However the underlying message is: the difference should begin from YOU.

[Shoba]

NOV,

An excellent post and true facts laid bare in a nutshell. I'm your neighbour :wink: , and I know exactly what you mean.

Having said that, the degree of democracy varies in just that-in degrees. True change can only come from within, and until then when the people of a country do not know how to handle freedom, the blame will always be put on some one else. Democracy or no democracy.

And that trait-of blaming others, is what Shankar has tried to portray in Anniyan.

Humans, when driven sufficiently, take on different personas, and in this particular case of multiple personalities, Shankar did a fairly decent job thro Vikram.

It was also refreshing to see the portrayal of various puraanams and the recommended punishments. That all religions have a common belief of good vs bad, and the bad will be punished if not here, then in the hereafter.

I dont think Anniyan was so much about patriotism per se, which "Indian" was, I think.

I'm wondering whether the message sent out from Indian reached the masses better, or whether Anniyan touched base better. It's not about box office collections I'm talking about.

The major disappointment was Sada. She reminded me of the woodeness of Trisha. And some one who can keep the likes of Nayanthara company in the department of how NOT to tie a sari! Other than that the cast was good and did a good job.

Dialogues were good-wish Shankar paid attention to the cast slipping up on the specific "dialect" they were speaking.

Songs-well..nice and peppy, dance floor type songs. Memorable-no, nothing stayed like say, Ra Ra (Chandramukhi).

Shoba

[ganesh79]

Two years ago, in some part of this planet earth outside India, some governing authority put nearly 300 IT pros in jail for unknown reasons and harrased them. What kind of arrogance is this? Whatever the mistake be, you cannot put a big group of nationals in jail, without a proper inquiry. Forget illegal immigrants. India is not even able to take action against border intruders without any criticism and hue and cry far from even mars. I dont' know why people who consult with UN to learn about statistics on India, forgot these issues? Human rights wing of UN sleeping? Of course, these issues offer no monetary gain to the west.

Half the world's proselytizers from the west are roaming free in India. They are the reason for the communal imbalance in India. Who questions them? They easily convert people and make them minorities and go back to their respective countries. But who takes care of those converted minorities? The Indian government. And, they will accept no less than the most special treatement. Quota for jobs, colleges, ministry; separate civil code; protection of their rights and what not. The entire India should work for them.
Singers and artists from our friendly neighbor are minting money here. I don't think even in the super-power there will ever be a minority president or vice-president. But in India? You may argue that it is part of the caste politics of Indian politicians. Most certainly you will. But atleast for political reasons minority enjoy in India. Elsewhere, the minorities don't even enjoy this politics driven status. But still India is being targetted for not showing respect to minorities, in several occasions by the foreign media.

These, along with few others, are some of the most serious issues that warrants action by the Indians and the Indian government. Let's worry about neat roads, good railways and strict traffic rules later!

[UnlimtedMeals]

Great posts people! Very educative and interesting.

NOV, I presume you are based in malaysia(from reading your post). I would like to know whathappened to the Prime Minister or the PM-to-be who was jailed with the charge of sodomy? I have studied Malaysian governance (or the lack thereof) while researching international policies. SOme of the things you mentioned are very true.

Ganesh79,
Interesting way to allude to me as the person aligned to statistics. I indeed am receptive to statistics but more on interpretation of statistics. I have learnt about the incident you mentioned and I do not condone any part of it. But I am doubtful whether the United Nations is responsible for such things when there were bigger issues to deal with this year with regards to UNPROFOR, oil-for-food scams and Security council debates. It is sad that such things hapen and India does not get the support it deserves.

About the religious conversion of minorities, it is a sensitive issue. I personally do not support it. One reason this is so easy to perform in India is because the minorities have nothing to lose as they have been ill-treated here and they easily buy the promises that are made to them by these "messengers". Caste system is still prevalent in our country not only legally but also through thought. The quota system though it sounds controversial is like the affirmative action in the US. India needs it but I am not very confident on the way it is implemented and the way the minorities abuse it.

You make it sound like the maximum problems are inflicted from outside and that is our primary focus-to-be. Whether I agree with this or not I certainly agree with the message in Anniyan that whatever we aspire to do and whatever we aim for we can do that while on the other side we can still follow the civic responsibility, respect for one another and good citizenry. These things are not hard and are easier to follow in our day-to-day lives. Shankar did not ask anyone to lobby for conceret roads or super highways in Anniyan. HE showed that maintaining regard for the country, society and its property alone goes a long way in helping our nation progress. If we can do this, then nobody including the UN or any outside state can stop pur local improvement. Improvement has to come from within and it has to come form every citizen in this country. We all can definitely change our country and improve our lives by just following our duty and sticking to discipline. This is what I got from Anniyan. I canot say whether it changed the movie goers, but it defnitely taught me something and I am willing to follow it! Therein lies an immediate victory to Shankar through Anniyan I must say!

[NOV]

NOV, I presume you are based in malaysia(from reading your post). I would like to know whathappened to the Prime Minister or the PM-to-be who was jailed with the charge of sodomy? I have studied Malaysian governance (or the lack thereof) while researching international policies. SOme of the things you mentioned are very true.but of course. I live here, don't I? My point is dont get over excited by the glossy brochures and beautiful picture being painted by the PR people. Reality can be some thing else.

The Deputy PM, Anwar Ibrahim, has been freed. He is a shadow of his former self and hardly a threat to the government any more. In all his interviews (all overseas), he has been nothing but a bundle of contradictions.

As for Ganesh's point on the IT people who were arrested, paraded and disgraced, well it happened in Kuala Lumpur. It pained me to the core that the Indian government hardly reacted to it - after all it has given so many projects to Malaysian government bodies and buys a lot of edible oils from Malaysia. Surely it could have sent a strong signal, but it didnt and Malaysia issued a short apology and all matters came to rest.

[Cinefan]

ganesh&unlimited;
Reading your posts I get the feeling that both of you are trying to tell the same thing,it's only unlimited's dependence on UN's statistics which is bugging ganesh.

As I told in my earlier post there is no need to compare India with any other country or depend on statistics,keen observation of soceity will tell us where the corrections are required&which are the things which need to be encouraged.

Finally a point,If someone points out mistakes in our system, doesn't mean they are unpatriotic.Self evaluation is required from time to time,for an individual,family,soceity,state&country.In fact a person who understands mistakes&takes corrective action thereby contributing his/her bit towards the improvement of the country at large is more patriotic than a chest thumping individual who does just that&nothing else.(A general comment&not aimed at any hubber :) )

[Crab]

Nov,

Indian democracy is a myth. There are indirect checks and balances springing straight out of the caste system where top 3% control over 93% of power and properties. Despite its own peculiar systemic weaknesses (that you pointed out), Malay model seems to have worked rather well in pulling millions out of farms into factories within a single generation.

Size does not matter. There are several smaller republics still caught in squalor even in Europe like Moldova. The quality of leadership reflects the quality of the nation.

Let me give an example of the rot in Indian system. Last winter, Junior Vikatan carried an article that it was so easy to get an affidavit for literally anybody in the world in the Chennai High Court. Their undercover reporter bribed the registrar to get an affidavit for none other than Saddam Hussain. They did not even check the photo. The affidavit duly declared that Saddam was the lawful President of Iraq and resides in Chennai. Signed by Saddam Hussain. (At the time of that article Saddam was still in the run.)

:lol: :rotfl:

There is inevitable brain-drain in the country which exports skilled labour nowadays even to Sub-Saharan Africa which offer greener pastures.

[gorgeous gaayini]

hey crab u ok?
theres been 6 bomb blasts in london.
u live in london rite.

[Crab]

Hi gaayu,

How u doing?

Am alright. But we got a noisy ruckus here after the Tube was shut down. Taxis galore amid drizzle as congestion charge has been suspended. You can't come into the capital anymore.

Meanwhile, Her Majesty is appalled at the dreadful things going on in her backyard. :cry:

[MADDY]

Guys, i think everyone is stretching here a bit far..........with all due respect to Malaysia and other countries- India is huge.....Infact Indian economy is bigger than Germany,UK,Japan,Italy- can u believe it????
yes it is....India is next only to China in growth.....wake up guys, EVERYTHING IS NOT GOOD WITH INDIA but its not EVERYTHING IS BAD WITH INDIA- u have to realise this......

if graduates of 90's have put India in top10, we the graduates of 2000's will take it to no.1.......that day is not far.......Lopsidedness will also be eradicated in due course of time.....if anyone wants the reason how India economy will become balanced i'll answer it :D.....

Jai Hind

[UnlimtedMeals]

Well Crab,

I am not sure if democracy exists in its true form in India but I could term the Indian system of governance right now as a mixture of oligarchy, aristocracy and lawlessness. The lawlessness leads people to do whetever they want and they know they cannot be punished for little things (like say throwing their garbage on the road).

Maddy,

Yes the Indian economy is Huuge but look at the percapita. I think the results will be interesting. :roll:

I think last time I looked it up on an edition of economist.

[alwarpet_andavan]

Nov,
Indian democracy is a myth. There are indirect checks and balances springing straight out of the caste system where top 3% control over 93% of power and properties.

Absolutely! However, "democracy" as we know it, be it in India, U.S.A or Timbuktoo is not actually that. Merely electing leaders is not democracy but the point is India is not alone in this.




Malay model seems to have worked rather well in pulling millions out of farms into factories within a single generation.

I don't think farms are evil and we have to evacuate people from farms into urban areas in totality. Remember, agriculture is the main determinant of GDP (in most countries) and a good monsoon (in India's case at least) means a good GDP and a bad one will have an adverse effect.

You made a very good point about the caste system and


where top 3% control over 93% of power and properties.

Couldn't agree with you more. In fact, this is true of every capitalist power following the so-called globalization (pl note i'm not against globalization, i'm just saying the present model is not actually globalization) including U.S.A and other major powers. However, obviously they better social and economic indicators than India.

Someone was mentioning BPO, IT industry etc. I'd like to remind them that IT/ITES don't contribute a considerable chunk in the GDP pie. It's agriculture, small industries, manufacturing and other mass-employment generating "things" which constitute the bulk.

The Scandinavian countries are the best in terms of per capita income and more importantly, as Crab mentioned, their leadership takes care of social spending and welfare measures that are loathed by other so-called capitaists. The result? - They have a very educated work force, good health (health plans and all) and other infrastructure.

A final word on "economic growth" etc in general. Economics is nothing but the balance between scarce resources and unlimited wants - meaning, distribution of wealth and equitable growth, keeping in mind that resources are scarce. Our "India shining" campaign clearly showed the lack of this. And all the chest thumping about IBM prefering India and all is good, but has to be viewed in the right context. It's like the father of a starving family saying, "gee, people..... I could manage an extra 2 idlies today for myself!". OK, the analogy was too simplistic but that's the drift.

Sorry for the long post and fortunately NOV, Unlimted Meals and Cinefan have already made some points i wanted to make :)

[ganesh79]

All of you just go to news.google.com and type India. See the first two pages of the result and more if you want. Of courses, the hot news would about the current Ayodhya crisis. Look at the rest of the news and continue your discussions.

[ganesh79]

Here are some of the headlines that I read:

Toyota and Daihatsu to invest 89 million in India and set up a plant.
Alcatel to invest $600 million
Shell may set up refinery in India
Something about Iran Gas pipeline talks
India on G8 summit (Apart from "the 8" only India and China take part). India is going to oppose something.
India and China may be invited to join G8 :Blair
Thales (Some french defence major) for a JV with India.
Yamaha mulls third plant in India.
India's oilmeal sales fall down --- bad news -- but good news is that it seems India is the Asia's largest oilmeal exporter.

I don't want to infer or interpret anything. You can do it, though, in whichever way you want.

[UnlimtedMeals]

That should make you happy and not like the world press has a grudge towards India as a nation.

This is great and every country will have results. We should now look at improvement.

alwarpet_andavan
The idly analogy was so good. It is totally true! I was very amused

:lol:

[UnlimtedMeals]

People,

Does the concept of respect for labor exist in India? I want to know how aware our public are about sweatshops and all that. With the way they are hanging out their toungue for FDI these days, I doubt the govt has any incentive to fight for the working class.

[ganesh79]

Ah Ah. Sweatshop is one of biggest problem in US and several other countries too. Infact, in US I have seen huge number of protests by students agains sweatshops. Half the sweatshops in the world are sponsored by the "big powers". Dude, get your basics right before arguing.

[Crab]

National labour force

- 388 million work in farms and rural services (of which three-fourths are redundant)
- 64 million work in factories (under slave conditions)
- 88 million work in urban services

The above includes child labour of atleast 54 million across all sectors.

[ssanjinika]

Dont you think "anniyan" is being taken a bit too seriously?It was an enjoyable movie which just had a character who got so frustrated by the people who refused to follow basic humanitarian laws.
India is a great country and I am proud to be an Indian but like all countries it has also got certain issues which Mr.Shankar has tried to potray in his own way. No point in closing our eyes and pretending that problems dont exist,they are not going to magically dissappear.The wise thing to do would be to do our bit to solve some of these issues.As for the comparision with Malayasia and Singapore..well as Nov said as long as we havent lived in those countries we will have no idea what problems the people there face.
Instead of praising or putting down other nations why dont we concentrate on India.

[gorgeous gaayini]

thank god, ur allright
i was goin to do shopping in london after sch with m frendz. bt now i cant. :(


Hi gaayu,

How u doing?

Am alright. But we got a noisy ruckus here after the Tube was shut down. Taxis galore amid drizzle as congestion charge has been suspended. You can't come into the capital anymore.

Meanwhile, Her Majesty is appalled at the dreadful things going on in her backyard. :cry:

[Crab]

Sub-Saharan African wages are atleast one-fourth above India.

One-third of the Sub-Saharan Africans are urban compared to one-fourth of Indians.

It's an open secret that millions more are poorer in India than in Sub-Saharan Africa but could not attract aid or attention on global scale as the latter.

[UnlimtedMeals]

Ganesh79,

Do you know what sweatshops are? I dont think you do.
In the United States the federal government establishes a minimum wage and every worker here is paid the minimum wage. The minimum wage is adjusted to the Consumer Price Index(CPI) on a periodic basis.

The protests here in the US are done by students and activists who protest against the sweatshops in countries like India, Vietnam, South-east Asia, Indonesia, Colombia and other latin-american countries which are established by corporate giants in the US(Coke, Nike etc.) I myself was involved in one of the protests.

I dont think your level of understanding of global policy dynamics, international trade and finance is too good because the way you are talking is extremely pedestrian. First please refine the language you use. You are stating ideas in a manner in which two guys in some tea shop will talk. In that case nobody needs to prove anything, nobody needs to back their statements, anyone can say anything.

If this level of ignorance goes on from you it makes me so tired to reply to some very ill-informed postings from you.

[UnlimtedMeals]

Crab,

May I know the source of your figures? It indeed is interesting and not very surprising. Anyone who has studied 6+ years of economics would know this is normal for India.

Here is something else I found:

What India is worst in the world for:

http://hetv.org/india/bottom-rankings.htm

What India is best for:(some of the items are not even worthy of mention) :D

http://hetv.org/india/top-rankings.htm

[ganesh79]

Unlimited,

Ignorance is a bliss. Half knowledge (like what you have) is dangerous.

[Pras]

india is best for People - Population in 2015

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

[j.chenkalvarayan]

pras that's not nice of you. you are my friend and you are mocking at my people.

[UnlimtedMeals]

Which is probably why people like you cannot even write a single argument that is based on facts, and devoid of anger and frustration.

I am happy with what I "know" and in my ever expanding pursuit of reading, attending conferences and researching, I indeed am learning different things. Probably the best thing that hapened to me was getting out of Chennai where everybody were frogs in a well and patting each others on the back in Ignorance.

Any man that has a solid education of the subject we have been discussing can read the rebuttals between you and me and make out how ludicrous the substance of your posts are. Not just the substance, but your style of writing, language, the frustration and agitation in your posts and lack of appreciable and well-informed statements would put any educated man off.

[j.chenkalvarayan]

which country you are from mr?

[UnlimtedMeals]

Pras that is nothing compared to some of the other ones.

[Crab]

UnLtd,

I took those data from the ILO and World Bank publications. These may not be available online for the timebeing. I stopped trusting any of the Indian Government data long ago.

We can safely ignore the harangue of Ganesh. He talks like a neo-Nazi already blaming minorities, foreigners, strangers and literally anybody whom he may never meet in his life at all.

Good diagnosis is the first step to better treatment.

[Thiru]

come on folks.. The argument here is not who knows better and who doesnt... Keep the argument going without attacking the other person's knowledge...

[UnlimtedMeals]

Thanks Thiru!

[ssanjinika]

india is best for People - Population in 2015

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

edula vezundu vezhundu serikarathuku enna erruku??
Its more of a matter to be given serious thought.For how many years now have we been talking about the population of India and how to curb it but not with much success it would seem if that report is anything to go by.

[Crab]

Andavan,

Farming is not evil. But too many hands are engaged in unproductive activities in that sector. The Union Government calls them politely as "underemployed". Broadly speaking, one man's job is shared by four.

Instead, these redundant labour can be released into blue-collared jobs with minimal training. That improves productivity in farm jobs and also raises output in factories. That's the general experience of the rest of the world.

The tools and techniques are readily available. But the will to execute them is missing as no government is keen on messing with the vote bank.

Hard work is not the same as manual work. Nehru's prodigal daughter banned tractor imports in a election year whim. Those laws were never overturned.

[ganesh79]

Ok. I don't like any allusions. Let me be straight. How many people here think my points are foolish? I may sound agitated or drunken, who cares. If you feel, I am foolish and should go out of this forum, let me know. I will do so. Anyways, before this topic was started nobody discussed Anniyan in this perscpetive. So, I am already happy anyways.

[Thiru]

ganesh, its not a question of staying in the forum only if you are right . You have the freedom to express your thoughts in the hub (within the hub rules) and other hubbers can support/criticise you.. thats what you have been doing and you can continue to do so.. You do have valid arguments on your side but that doesnt warrant me or others to support in each and every statement of yours.. At the sametime, I concur as well as disagree with most of Unlimited meal's posts.. Criticisms or accolades you take it in the right spirit and move on..
There is no definite answer for the thread you started... The more we discuss the more the two sides will deviate from the original topic..

[Nayagan]

Anniyan does portray people lack of respect for rules in TN/India.
The following is my personal experience.

The traffic signal is the best example.
Even before the signal turns green, half of the vehicles have crossed the intersection. They blast the horn from behind if you rightfully wait for the signal to turn green.
This happens in every intersection in chennai.
Why cant they wait that 5 seconds for the signal to turn green?
How do the pedestrians cross? They have to literally run seeing both sides of the street for you can
never be sure. So much for concern for others.

Standing in queues anywhere.
There is bound to be a guy who will cut in front of you and reach for the counter.
He things people standing in the queue are morons.


The basic mentality is to cut corners where ever you can.
In all walks of life, we cannot be patient and wait our turn.
Such disdain for rules and lack of respect for fellow human needs to be corrected.

Anniyan takes the violent route, while Ambi approaches it merely by questioning it.

[Shoba]

Ok. I don't like any allusions. Let me be straight. How many people here think my points are foolish? I may sound agitated or drunken, who cares. If you feel, I am foolish and should go out of this forum, let me know. I will do so. Anyways, before this topic was started nobody discussed Anniyan in this perscpetive. So, I am already happy anyways.

I'm just a regular hubber here Ganesh. So I dont know if my "vote" would carry any weight :D

I agree with what Thiru just said..and I feel that any discussion will always have pros and cons. It wont serve anybody and any purpose if you left the forum, but then ultimately the choice will be yours and only yours.

This discussion on Anniyan has brought out many things which were interesting. For me, personally speaking it's nice to listen to such intellectual discussions, instead of just prattling on and taking personal pot shots.

I'm glad you started this thread, thanks for that. It's always nice to stop and think, instead accepting everything blindly and carrying on in life as if one is never part of anything.

Shoba

[MADDY]

ganesh79...i'm with u.... :D .......i'm pretty sure things will change in India......India will bcome no.1 one day and we will laugh at these pessimists.......be happy ganesh.....

[santosh108]

Sweatshop is one of biggest problem in US and several other countries too. Infact, in US I have seen huge number of protests by students agains sweatshops

Ganesh are you are living in the US ?

[Cinefan]

Ganesh&Maddy,
I fail to understand why both of you are just refusing to see the comments being put forward by Unltd Meals&others in the right perspective.None of us are saying India is doing very badly as far as economy,military might&other issues are concerned but there are still a lot of things to be done,right?Why ignore them totally or argue such things never exist :?

Since the discussion started with Anniyan,let me revisit it.Forgetting for a moment on how good/bad was Shankar's execution&how it compares with his previous efforts,the issues raised by Shankar are valid right?

As one of the hubbers pointed out,We can't do simple things like standing in a Q,Waiting for the traffic signal to fall green,allowing pedestrians to cross,dumping garbage in cans,not spitting/urinating/defaceting on the roads,not cutting yellow lines which when done leads to blocking of traffic on the other side etc etc etc.In every walk of day to day life,there is impatience&insensitivity shown to fellow human beings.

These are some of the issues raised by Shankar in the film.Are you telling that such things don't exist.In fact there is no need to compare ourselves with other countries.These are things which should be a part of our culture.Why is it not there?Is it not our responsibility to inculcate basic discipline,politeness&courtesy to our children&to educated/not educated grown ups who don't have it.

Any furthur discussion will be useful only when you get the drift of the arguments.I once again reiterate that India is def a growing power but a lot still needs to done.Hope atleast now we won't go around in circles. :D

[Sanguine Sridhar]

Cinefan,
In a family consider there are two kids.One kid is soo gud,he has cultivated self-dicipline,culture etc..other one is not so.So what is the job of Father of that family.He has to be strict on the other one right?? That the thing needed now.Rules should be moooreeeeeeeee strict.Fine the persons who are against the rules.BTW,
Indian - Shankar concentrates on the indicipline in the higher level ie., Govt employees etc.,
Mudhalvan - Shankar concentrates on the indicipline in very high level ie., Govt itself
Anniyan - He concentrates on the lower level indiciplines...

Whatever he shld be praised atleast that he is making movie that has some good production :D

[sanjay]

I think too much is being read into annyan. Shankar is not a director who delves too much inyo an issue & offers solutions.

He is more of a mass director who just touches on issues.

He is not a KB or mani ratnam to examine a problem in totality.

He makes films purely from a commerical angle. That's all.

[alwarpet_andavan]

People,

Does the concept of respect for labor exist in India? I want to know how aware our public are about sweatshops and all that. With the way they are hanging out their toungue for FDI these days, I doubt the govt has any incentive to fight for the working class.
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
That's what "capitalism" is all about :)

[UnlimtedMeals]

Cinefan & Beckham

Good points. Exactly what I have been saying. Thanks so much for sparing time iterating these points.

[UnlimtedMeals]

alwarpet_andavan

Its true. I happened to atttend a symposium where the issue discussed was how to balance regulations in a free market economy. There were points raised against govts like India as to how they are so occupied in licking the boots of these corps while ignoring their working class citizens. The conclusion was that these govts haze so much to lose that they will agree to whatever conditions these corps ask for. otherwise these corps wil threaten to move away to say vietnam or egypt.

[gorgeous gaayini]

Dats true, a french man who looks in2 the future ( dead centuries ago), he had predicted the event on september 11th etc, he sed wen the world ends, india wud b the ruling country.


ganesh79...i'm with u.... :D .......i'm pretty sure things will change in India......India will bcome no.1 one day and we will laugh at these pessimists.......be happy ganesh.....

[ganesh79]

I am just going to sit and watch calmly (just like India!) and see what others opinons are, for sometime.

[lordstanher]

Amazed to find this raging discussion on the socio-economic status of India stemming from a discussion on a film.....!
Well, I havn't seen Anniyan yet so as to speak abt it.......but glad to find the discussions this film has aroused! :D
I feel tat Cinefan (as always!) & Unlimited hav the right idea abt wat India's situation actually is today, & I support their arguments rather than blindly hum the "India shining" song! :D
It is really unilateral to say tat our country is developing just bcos of IT firms, MNCs & BPOs booming in it! when actually we r in dire need of proper basic infrastructure, law & order & an efficient govt. to rule us for a reasonably proper time-period, contrary to these political parties always trying to outwin each other in elections every few yrs & concentrating on the no. of votes they get when most of them do precious little to develop the state/country in their tenure........
The day-to-day environ. in India inside a posh IT firm is a sharp contrast to wat u find once u step out of the IT bldg. & walk on the road outside!
And hats off to unlimited who aptly/unabashedly pointed out the 'frog-in-the-well' attitude of the average working class youth (viz. IT profs.) of today who live in their own comfy world, secured by their high salaries & perpetuate the belief tat India is 'shining' or becoming a developed nation bcos of their professions! One particular aspect I've been pondering over myself.......
How apparent it is tat our Govt., incapable of ensuring equal employment oppurtunities for all professions, is propping up IT firms to create a facade of a 'shining' India! How, may I ask, is IT going to benefit say a graduate in BA (as I am) or MA.......or ne-one other than those who've studied/graduated in IT/Comp. engg.??
Moreover, for eg. sumone who takes interest in studying say Geog. or History etc. - even if a gold medalist- is faced w/ a blank future in our country today, either w/ unemployment or too low a pay, not to mention lack of respect from society......& maybe ultimately- even reluctantly- seeks solace in say, becoming a customer service rep. in a call centre, a job tat he wud've hardly had interest in! Whereas an IT profnl. even after just finishing grad. can rest assured abt joining a job related to his interest & gaining respect in society! Note the difference?? :wink:
And surely one cannot expect each & everyone in this entire nation to study only IT/Comp. engg. like human robots & end up as techies just bcos this is one profession tat guarantees jobs w/ decent income! IMHO, every person has a right to study for watever profession they aspire, be it MBA or MA Philosophy.....and its the duty of the Govt. to ensure the possibility of decent employment oppurtunities for ppl. aspiring for ne & every career in all fields, rather than simply pampering growth of IT firms or MNCs or BPOs in India in the name of 'gr8er emplyomnt oppurtunities'!
In developed nations, a person is assured employment & a decent living/position in society whether hez an engg. grad. or tat of linguistics, even tho the salaries might obv. vary.......
So this is wat shud be emphasised in India as well........
Unlimited, kudos to u again for pointing out the traps set by the free market system & India expectedly falling for it! Similar scenario in case of BPOs in India too (altho these r pvt. establishments).......
Lastly I fail to comprehend, on one hand, we exult in declaring tat Indian economy is 'booming' & improving at a steadfast rate.......but OTOH, it seems contradictory when for eg. many of our ppl. still dream the 'American Dream' w/ US $ floating around them......in fact, when I returned from Singapore (studied there for 2 yrs) this yr, many ppl. seemed to think I was crazy to do so, when I cud've easily migrated to work/settle in another '1st world' country instead of returning to India!
How cud this be our ppl's attitude if our countryz eco. is indeed improving?? :? We need to rethink all this........

[sanjay]

lord!

what a short post!

[lancelot]

lord!

what a short post!

very short :lol:

hehe
:D

[Nayagan]

As cinefan as mentioned the lack of civic sense is basic need of the hour. We don't have to compare ourself with any other country, it is something every indian needs to inculcate. What is the point if we are developing in IT and other fields and lack the ability to properly drive, keep our streets clean ..stand in line. These by itself will make our country glossy

Sanjay on your point abt Shankar doesn't touch the real issues, i beg to differ. He is from a middle class family and has gone thru most of the hassles that each one of us go thru. So his messages are relevant. He has also understood how to make commercial cinema so he is striking a balance between the two. Even MR doesn't necessarily give a solution, he just takes a burning issue and builds a story around it. He doesn't advocate a solution.

[Nayagan]

oops! i actually meant
"As cinefan as mentioned correcting the lack of civic sense is basic need of the hour."

[ganesh79]

I am surprised that no one has brought China into our topic or did I miss them? In fact, it is the apt country to compare India with, if at all we want to compare. It is similar in the way it wants to grow genuinely and indigenously (of course, every country will have its own quota of fraudulence) into a super-power. Only that we are striving to be a developed nation, while China is striving to be a super-power.

[Crab]

Ganesh,

India should not be compared with China. Unlike India, China is not a multicultural society. It is populated 92% by one race - Han. That's why I compared with other multicultural societies like Malaysia, Nigeria.

[UnlimtedMeals]

Some of China's recent laws are outrageous and funny such as the recent crackdown on anuthing on the internet that goes against the regime and the "values" of the society.

I have a question for people who are in foriegn nations. Have you ever come acros a Taiwanese person who claims he/she is taiwanese and not chinese?

[lordstanher]

Some of China's recent laws are outrageous and funny such as the recent crackdown on anuthing on the internet that goes against the regime and the "values" of the society.

Um.......I can't imagine wat those cud be, except maybe porn sites! :? :lol2:


I have a question for people who are in foriegn nations. Have you ever come acros a Taiwanese person who claims he/she is taiwanese and not chinese?

Well, dono abt Taiwanese but when I was in Singapore I did come across many of the Chinese locals who claimed they were S'porean rather than Chinese..... :)

[UnlimtedMeals]

More than just porn sites lord.

Scorcese's move Kundun made me think a little differently.

Although I should be, I am not ashamed to think that a cinema(in this case Kundun) made me think so passionately about the atrocitties that the Chinese Govt inflicted on the belivers of a certian 'system of beliefs' (in other words a 'religion')

Let this tangent about china end, and let us focus on this thread's primary topic.

thiru, sorry for not heeding to your earlier warning

[NOV]

Guys, this thread should receive greater participation in Miscellaneous Section, since we are not actually talking about Anniyan the movie but the laments of Anniyan.

[ganesh79]

I believe such laws and crackdowns are quite important when things are in developmental stage. I don't think Malaysia or Singapore is less strict than China. This is the very reason why I thought Anniyan is a big mistake. India is the only place where films like these can be made and can become commercial hit too. I remember, last year, there was a huge propaganda against Farenheit 9/11 in US. Finally, though the film came out successfully, it wasn't well received by the audience as well as the critics. US claims it gives freedom to press/media, but the press/media is fully controlled by the goverment or works in favor of the goverment. What kind of freedom is this then?

[Thiru]

ganesh, Farenheit 911 was well received by the US audience and the DVD was one of the hot sellers when it came out...

[ganesh79]

More than when it came out, it was well "received" during November of 2004!

[UnlimtedMeals]

Yes. F911 had a fantastic response in the US and I remember that it opened in some 800 screens(as opposed to the 2000+ screens that most other popular movies get) and became the first documentary to bag box-office throne on opening weekend.

I was also convinced that people who liked that documentary need not necessarily vote against the government because there is more things to consider than just having a film-maker like Michael Moore form your political affinity. I do know a large number of registered republicans who like the documentary.

Also the documentary was opinionated and was based on selective facts. Therefore it hardly serves as any guidance to form impressions.

[MADDY]

hey, when u guys talk abt civic sense and traffic sense etc, i'll tell u some things that are followed in Mumbai:

1.in signals and roadcrossings, motorists,car drivers wait till pedestrians cross the road and in my 7 yrs mumbai life i have never heard "Veetla sollitu vanthutiya" while accidentally crossing the road,

2.There is a queue for buses in starting point anywhere/anytime and if anyone tries to break that queue will get his neck broken

3.Rickshaw/Taxi drivers are so perfect in charging the customer.....chennai's auto drivers shuld be taught a lesson in mumbai.....

4.eve teasing is almost non-existent and even if there is one, then ppl. take the wind out of the guy who does it....(Rape and other crime against women r done by middle-aged ppl. here and not youngsters)

so,Mumbai is following certain rules as told by anniyan, so we r not doing that bad......alrighty??? :D

but spitting/urination,slums/beggars are never ending problems in mumbai too....

[UnlimtedMeals]

Maddy,

It Sounds Unbelievable and Untrue :P

[MADDY]

Unlimited Meals, it is true....i think u can ask guys like mumbai_ramki or some other DFers who live in Mumbai..... i know it is very hard for ppl. to accept that good things do happen in India......
yaen UL- traffic rules,civic sense, nalla gunadhisiyamellam south-east Asian/euroepan/north american countries 1000 varshum leasla eduthutangla enna??Indians can also follow discipline......y r u so pessimistic and so critical abt my country??? :?

[lordstanher]

Maddy,
It Sounds Unbelievable and Untrue :P

Well, maybe true but definitely unbelievable w/ respect to Big Bad Bbay! :shock: :D
Quite contrary to wat its portrayed as in most media, not to mention the popular old Hindi film song "A-dil hai mushkil jeena yahan, zara hatke zara bachke yeh hai bum-bai meri jaan......." :wink: (hope all here can understand this or ne trans. required...?)
Neways,


1.in signals and roadcrossings, motorists,car drivers wait till pedestrians cross the road and in my 7 yrs mumbai life i have never heard "Veetla sollitu vanthutiya" while accidentally crossing the road,

I didn't really get tat saying.....but reg. pedestrian behaviour, I rem. reading articles in Auto India & other car mags. tat many pedestrians in Bbay for sum reason, decide to cross only when the signal turns green & callously waddle across the road then, making the oncoming vehicles wait more than nec'ry....esp. the cars ahead, whose owners suffer the most as the more impatient Auto drivers try & squeeze their way thru the gaps, bumping & scraping the cars along the sides in the process! :(
R traffic lights in Bbay equipped w/ flashing lights/symbols signalling pedes. can/cannot cross?? I noticed they were (are?) present in Madras......


3.Rickshaw/Taxi drivers are so perfect in charging the customer.....chennai's auto drivers shuld be taught a lesson in mumbai.....

Better include Hyd. ones as well........they seem to be taking a cue from their 'Madrasi' counterparts slowly but steadily.......!

[ganesh79]

I am not trying here to develop india through "valid arguments". I am just trying to inform the mis-informed souls on the developed worlds as well as India.

[Cinefan]

Amazed to find this raging discussion on the socio-economic status of India stemming from a discussion on a film.....!
Well, I havn't seen Anniyan yet so as to speak abt it.......but glad to find the discussions this film has aroused! :D
I feel tat Cinefan (as always!) & Unlimited hav the right idea abt wat India's situation actually is today, & I support their arguments rather than blindly hum the "India shining" song! :D
.................................................. ...........................................

lord,Thanks for your compliments.

And a :thumbsup: for the rest of your post.

[ssanjinika]

I am surprised that no one has brought China into our topic or did I miss them? In fact, it is the apt country to compare India with, if at all we want to compare. It is similar in the way it wants to grow genuinely and indigenously (of course, every country will have its own quota of fraudulence) into a super-power. Only that we are striving to be a developed nation, while China is striving to be a super-power.

Ganesh China is a COMMUNIST Nation.Theres a huge difference between Democracy and Communisim.Its not fair to compare India with China.India does not force you todo things.She relies more on her people doing the right thing.China on the other hand forces her people to do the things she wants.Do you know that there are restrictions imposed on even browsing the net??Any site which is not approved by the government cannot be visited by any browsing person.Even with so many restrictions and impositions it has not grown as much as expected.India on the other hand will grow much faster if only our people realise that we have issues and work to correcting them.A lot of us Indians are like Alcoholics...our main problem is denying that we have a problem !!

[UnlimtedMeals]

Well said Sanjinika!

Unfortunately it requires much effort and argumentation to convince our people to see that.

[UnlimtedMeals]

http://www.indianexpress.com/full_story.php?content_id=73907

I thought the above link would be appropriate in this thread. There is a photo of a 97% carrying a 3% on his shoulders.

[Thiru]

[tscii:d956ee4b5a]" India’s national leadership must see in the photograph of Vadodra’s joint commissioner mounted on a constable, a mute but vivid symbol of the disastrous state of the national administration. "

Sad but true.. [/tscii:d956ee4b5a]

[MADDY]

guys, when u ask ppl. to identify the problems within the country , then it is also necessary to review the things that we are doing good.........y dunt u guys bring 1 article abt India doing good in some field or the other........u guys for the past 1 week have discussed in length&breadth abt. India's weaknesses, now y dunt u say something good abt ourselves......

u know, when my team was doing bad, my manager not only pointed out our mistakes/problems but he also xpressed hope and pointed out our strengths as well.......rite now we r the most performing group in our firm..... :D....
similarly,express some hope abt this gr8 country doing well.......image India as a strong nation by 2020 , it will happen as abdul kalam says........

unga postellam paartha US Human rights commsion reports on India and 20 satyajit ray padam paartha mathiri irukku.....cheer up guys.......dont paint the picture so black...... :D ...u guys r generating so much negative energy which is not good for our country..... :D

[lordstanher]

And a :thumbsup: for the rest of your post.

Tks Cinefan! :)

[lordstanher]

[tscii:a4e4d9b435]" India’s national leadership must see in the photograph of Vadodra’s joint commissioner mounted on a constable, a mute but vivid symbol of the disastrous state of the national administration. " Sad but true.. [/tscii:a4e4d9b435]

Aside, this is also I daresay a literal eg. of a system where one climbs over/pushes down another to get over to the top! :wink: :lol2:

[Thiru]

here's an interesting article on our Economy :)
http://us.rediff.com/money/2005/jul/13gdp.htm

[UnlimtedMeals]

[tscii:48a3325c15]To all our Tidel Park-Cofee Pub sophisticated techies:

An excerpt from World Bank WDI for South Asia-


Despite high tech hotspots, low access to PCs and Internet

Modern information and communications technologies are increasingly recognized for their contribution to the development
process and links to growth. Despite the new technology centers that have sprung up in places such as Bangalore, the
South Asia region, home to more than 20 percent of the world’s population, has the lowest Internet use and access to personal
computers among developing regions. With 10 Internet users per 1,000 people, South Asia ranks well below Europe and
Central Asia (160 users per 1,000), Latin America (106 per 1,000), and Sub-Saharan Africa (20 users per 1,000). Access to
PCs is also low in South Asia compared to other developing regions. With 7 PCs per 1,000 people, South Asia is behind East
Asia and the Pacifi c (26 PCs per 1,000), the Middle East and North Africa (38 PCs per 1,000), and Sub-Saharan Africa (12
PCs per 1,000).[/tscii:48a3325c15]

[MADDY]

will u stop it unlimited meals?????obviously west doesent like India and they have trillions of articles on web degrading India, that doesent mean they r all true and u need to post them here......there's a limit for everything..........u know foreigners also access this forum, still u make so many criticisms against India???/very bad.....and it is so disgusting to see so many ppl. criticising India..........criticising India is like criticising urself.....y dont u realise that???it is also very sad to see younger generation with so much of pessimism abt. India.......

jai Hind.....

[UnlimtedMeals]

That article is in no way pessimistic. It is an appraisal of World Development Indicators drawn by World bank and was taken directly out of World Bank's website. It is a fact and goes to prove what some of us have been trying to say here. Tech advances have infiltrated only the cities.

[NOV]

Maddy, I believe you are reacting unneccesarily. Foreigners don't look down on India's lack of certain facilities. You need not be ashamed of such statistics. Give the nation some time and not only will it catch up but will grow at a rate unassailable by the others.

World over, the belief is that India and China will the super powers of the future.

Number of TVs per person, cars, GDP, etc are beyond the control of the ordinary person and is dependant on several issues.

What I would be worried about is one thing (ironically raised in Anniyan) - people's attitude. Change has to begin there.

Denial won't help.

[MADDY]

NOVji, i accept change shuld be from minds of common man and not just politicians.....accepted but did u see some of the posts here which were only abt. weaknesses/bad points abt. India.....y dont they look at the brighter side also????we shuld be optimistic also not just sit and sulk.......

[NOV]

Guess, people already are aware of India's greatness and just want to highlight the weaknesses.

Maddy, latest news is that Anniyan is now going to be dubbed into French for foreign audience (yet another first!) - what are your thoughts about this now? ;)

[MADDY]

that's gr8 isn't it??? but again wat will french ppl. think of India when they watch this movie :D .......

hey is it really true NOV???

[UnlimtedMeals]

Thats correct.

I dont think we all come here to write things we know are already good about India and write stuff in general that makes us feel good. It is not about feeling good but its more about raising awareness and boldly stating bare facts that we in the cities choose to ignore. Being comfy is easy, to change needs some steel

[ganesh79]

I am surprised that no one has brought China into our topic or did I miss them? In fact, it is the apt country to compare India with, if at all we want to compare. It is similar in the way it wants to grow genuinely and indigenously (of course, every country will have its own quota of fraudulence) into a super-power. Only that we are striving to be a developed nation, while China is striving to be a super-power.

Ganesh China is a COMMUNIST Nation.Theres a huge difference between Democracy and Communisim.Its not fair to compare India with China.India does not force you todo things.She relies more on her people doing the right thing.China on the other hand forces her people to do the things she wants.Do you know that there are restrictions imposed on even browsing the net??Any site which is not approved by the government cannot be visited by any browsing person.Even with so many restrictions and impositions it has not grown as much as expected.India on the other hand will grow much faster if only our people realise that we have issues and work to correcting them.A lot of us Indians are like Alcoholics...our main problem is denying that we have a problem !!

Please name a single country that accepts or accepted or will accept its mistakes and deeds. You are talking as if only Indians are alcoholics, while most part of the world is submerged in alcohol, both literally and metaphorically. Every civilization has its own faults. Why do we want to project ourselves in bad light while the real criminals are projecting themselves as Mahatmas? How long are you going to complain ourselves, our government and our citizens, while in the other developed nations people (falsely) complain "other government", "other citizens" and "others" (what they call aliens) for their problems ?
Both self appraisal and self happiness are required together for success. Just like we have the right to criticize ourselves, we have the right to acclaim ourselves too. Aren't we thought in our respective schools that right projection is the first step to success? What do you first tell about yourselves in a job interview? The mistakes you did/do/will do?

Have you ever looked at how US tried to cover up the scams like Enron, MCI/Worldcomm, US 2000 presidential elections. How many movies have been taken centered around these scams? (except a documentary called Farenheit...). In how many movies you see people criticize about these scams. Why don't you take a cue from these countries? May be this is how they really developed - Cover up all the mistakes. I believe there were many more such scams that didn't even show up. I know even people who disregard Enron as a scam and say it is some "corporate issue". But I have read about some families that came to streets after the Enron scam.

Who says China hasn't grown as expected. May be the west spreads such rumours. And moreover, China doesn't boast/market itself like the west and doesn't use any flowery languages either. And btw, India was meant to be only semi-democratic.

[ganesh79]

And I do know that emergence of china as a super power is not a good news for India.

[stranger]

I think that too is a message in the film

Shankar gives a message to Indians through Anniyan! That is news to me! I have seen some worthy serious message in movies such as KaruththammA, avargaL, kutty etc. They do have very serious messages to the society and for the middle-class people especially.

When Shankar comes up with a message through "one-day CM" and "stranger" and the "punks" (boys), it only cracks me up!



When people from our country can go in mass to countries like malaysia and behave responsibly why cant they behave the same way in India?

Please, go and watch our fellow indians, when boarding Air-India in north america (Dallas or Chicago or New York) how the Indians follow the "rules of boarding". It is a shame! The cheap, unprofessional attitude of Indians never change no matter where they live. The same Indians will be responsible and do their job perfectly when boarding with majority of white-passengers when boarding in an AA or United or Delta.

It is nothing but a joke if someone seriously believes that Shankar is working on fixing the society through his movies. But, he is, sure, entertaining people by painting the mountains and inspiring Hollywood flicks like Matrix. He is surely helping Kunjumon, A M Rathnam and Oscar to make big bucks.

Is he sending a serious message to the society through his movies which will ever get to the people???

A big NO!

That is of course my humble opinion! 8)

[lordstanher]

Shankar gives a message to Indians through Anniyan! That is news to me! ..............When Shankar comes up with a message through "one-day CM" and "stranger" and the "punks" (boys), it only cracks me up! .........Is he sending a serious message to the society through his movies which will ever get to the people???

A big NO!

Well, I'm yet to see Anniyan (btw, I think Vikram looks much better in tat Iyengar garb than he does in reality! :wink: :lol2: ).......but I've noticed tat altho such films (Mudalvan, Sami r other eg.) r made by & large w/ the idea of 'enlightening' the masses abt issues affecting our society & seem to carry a message for ppl. in them, tat effect is all usually marred by including of mostly cheap-ish, vulgar dances in the songs of most o these movies......!
Its like, the entire seriousness of the 'message' tat these movies r meant to carry is lost w/ all these unwanted, giltzy gimmicks! :x

Ppl. tend to like watching these films mainly for this stuff & miss out on the original idea the movie was made for.......so it eventually jus becomes another action-romance-song-dance movie to entertain & fill up the box office.......tats the main reason even such films fail to make the imapct on ppl. tat they r expected to.......tks to being diluted w/ such cheap commercially oriented gimmicks!
IMHO, twud've been better if there weren't songs/dances w/ such levels of vulgarity in them, which tend to deviate the minds of many ppl. (read male audience!) from the main message tat is being rightly conveyed in the story.....!


Please, go and watch our fellow indians, when boarding Air-India in north america (Dallas or Chicago or New York) how the Indians follow the "rules of boarding". It is a shame! The cheap, unprofessional attitude of Indians never change no matter where they live. The same Indians will be responsible and do their job perfectly when boarding with majority of white-passengers when boarding in an AA or United or Delta.

Yea, even I've noticed the same, contrasting behaviours among many of our ppl. while travelling in AI vs. travelling in Sing. Airlines or Silkair....... :wink:

[lordstanher]

How long are you going to complain ourselves, our government and our citizens, while in the other developed nations people (falsely) complain "other government", "other citizens" and "others" (what they call aliens) for their problems ?

Well, I daresay its bcos in "developed" nations, ppl. can seldom find nething to complain abt their own govt., their citizens, their countries' infrastructure etc. 'cos its all supposed to be developed.....so when they jus need sumthing to complain abt they start talking abt other nations/govts. & so-called "aliens"...... :wink: :lol2:

-Just joking! :D


Have you ever looked at how US tried to cover up the scams like Enron, MCI/Worldcomm, US 2000 presidential elections. How many movies have been taken centered around these scams? (except a documentary called Farenheit...).

Um.......'don't rem. nething shown abt the Vietnam War either :? (which I think was put out by Jimmy Carter?).......one of the longest wars I've known abt!


Who says China hasn't grown as expected. May be the west spreads such rumours. And moreover, China doesn't boast/market itself like the west and doesn't use any flowery languages either. And btw, India was meant to be only semi-democratic.

Um......speakin of China, ne idea y exactly Indian govt. is now freely allowing Chinese goods to flood the market?? After all these years of stiff competition w/ them even in terms of marketing products globally....... :?

[ganesh79]

Why vietnam? Even the "hiroshima neethano...nagasaki neethano" is fully covered up and no one has made movie about it. There are dozen movies on pearl harbor attack though! And Shankar glorifies this in a song in a Tamil movie.. "Unmeedhu thano en kadhal bomb o". Doesn't know the seriousness of the situaion. Ah. Good job Shankar!

[lordstanher]

Why vietnam? Even the "hiroshima neethano...nagasaki neethano" is fully covered up and no one has made movie about it. There are dozen movies on pearl harbor attack though!

Yes but then Hiroshima-Nagasaki wud be of more significance to the history of Japan rather than US, rite?...... :?
Vietnam War (which the US then called as War against communism) is significant as itwas poss' one of rthe longest in history.......raged on for nearly 2 decades- from the late '50s to the mid(?) '70s!
My suspicion is tat US is goin 2 repeat the same thing even in the 21st century, in case of the Iraq War (a.k.a War agnst Terrorism!)........doesn't look like its likely to end soon!

[ssanjinika]

Mr Ganesh,

There is no point in continuing this discussion with you. You dont seem to get the point ! You talk about other countries painting themselves as Mahatma when in fact they have a lot of other problems. Just because other countries are stupid enough todo that ,its no reason for Indians todo the same. And FYI WE ARE NOT TRYING TO PUT DOWN INDIA !!! All we are saying is that there is no harm in accepting that we have areas where we need to change and go about changing it. Again I am not trying to blame anyone...each and every one of us as Indians should try to change ourselves first and behave in a irreproachable manner.We can then worry about the world. Andha country eppadi erruku,indha country eppadi errukku-nu vetti pechu pesinde errunda namma urupuda mattom!!

[ganesh79]

As if I am the person who started the art of comparing with other countries ...

[UnlimtedMeals]

Is he sending a serious message to the society through his movies which will ever get to the people??? A big NO!


With this attituide, probably not. But my belief is that there are some people who to a reasonable extent wanted to change and behave more responsible. From your post I understand that maybe I should not count you in as one of them.

[stranger]

Andha country eppadi erruku,indha country eppadi errukku-nu vetti pechu pesinde errunda namma urupuda mattom!!

It is true but how would you come up a criticism or any comment if you dont compare others and other countries' and the people's attitude you learnt about?

"aduththaaththu ambujaththa paarththELA"- is also needed to certain extent to fix ourselves. 8)

You cant just start from nowhere. Can you? :roll:

[UnlimtedMeals]

What is also funny is that how some are doing a 'Bhai-Bhai' with China. :D

China is in no way comparable to India. I think they are looking over at something bigger than us.

[UnlimtedMeals]

Please, go and watch our fellow indians, when boarding Air-India in north america (Dallas or Chicago or New York) how the Indians follow the "rules of boarding". It is a shame! The cheap, unprofessional attitude of Indians never change no matter where they live. The same Indians will be responsible and do their job perfectly when boarding with majority of white-passengers when boarding in an AA or United or Delta.

Okay.... so that still does not bode well for us, right? In Anniyan isn't that what he shows? "Manushaalukku Manushaa mariyadhaiye illiya?" You just gave an example of how shankar was right!

What I wanted to say in this original context was that we Indians will not drive on the shoulder, will not throw a cofee cup blatantly on the pavement in the US because we will be screwed here. But things are easy in India, and the "kindness" the society imposes drives people to have the arrogant feeling that nobody would care(or would kill us) if disrespect civic manners. The same guy who would follow the rules in India would land in our place and start becoming carefree. Because it is after all India, who cares?

[stranger]

You just gave an example of how shankar was right!

Give me a break, here! Will you?!

Then what was Shakar right about, when those punks bringing a "motherly" prostitute in their own home when the parents are out of town-where their mom and dad are living???!!!(in BOYS)

Is he trying to fix the society then?! Tell me how?!

Why did he by-pass the "A" certificate in that movie, which was very well deserved???? For helping the society?! :roll:

To help all the punks in India by showing a new way to get infected with a strange virus??? 8)

[ganesh79]

Anniyan itself was given life with only black money, I suppose. Movie makers are the biggest tax defaulters. They criticize the fellow citizens? Movie makers after, "adjustment" with heroines and minting money, complain our own land and people. Anniyan should have killed them first.
Half the movie makers are school dropouts, drunkards, womanizers and they comment on India's economic policies. Nice joke. No wonder they eventually enter into politics, with die-hard fanatics supporting their views. This is the first and foremost bane of India. Now do you agree that I too criticize India?

[MADDY]

there's no point in defending Shankar UL....he is not serious with his msgs...they r so kiddish :D .......just enjoy his movies and that's it......infact Mani is more serious comapred to shankar while giving msg movies........

ssanjinika, every country have their prejudice and predetermined notions....India is no different........infact sometimes ths prejudice is measured as patriotism.........so i wont accept everything is wrong with India.........it is not true as well.....u and UL shuld understand that times are changing.....i dunt know how old u r but if u r in ur twenties i promise that our kids will see THE superpower India cos:

1.India is the 10th most powerful economy in the world
2.Indian economy grows thrice as fast as Japan,Germany,UK
3.Indian IT and BPO industry will touch 25 billion$ mark by 2015
4.Indian consumer market is huge and all major foreign players are now dependent on Indian consumer.....
5.India is also doing very well in tradional industries like steel,cement whereas western countries see their IT companies doing better than Steel,cment industries.....

still u think India is bad and we r dying then pls go ahead....there's no one to stop u.....not even the admin :D

[ganesh79]

Maddy,

In fact I think it is good India is projected in bad light. So we can develop silently, unlike the west, which is getting ruined by itself without its knowledge. Let us remain ignorant "makkans", in the eyes of others. Let's see how the next generation of developed countries are going to be, with half the teenagers already succumbed to drugs/hiv and literally no show of them in science/math/tech/medicine degrees in universities. Let them paint the India black and elsewhere in colors. Let them think we are fools and consider themselves intelligent. As they say "he who thinks he knows, but knows not is the ultimate fool" and vice-versa. In fact this is the right strategy to develop ourselves. Paint ourselves black.

[stranger]

Maddy,
Let us remain ignorant "makkans".

:rotfl:

Man! That aint a good idea for sure! :lol:

Apparently, ganesh, You dont seem to know about us! :rotfl:

[ganesh79]

Read again please.

[stranger]

NO need!

Relax!

I know what u mean.

You mean let us look ignorant to the ignorant west!

But we are indeed ignorant. So it aint going to work, ganesh :cry:

[stranger]

there's no point in defending Shankar UL....he is not serious with his msgs...they r so kiddish :D

:thumbsup:


every country have their prejudice and predetermined notions....India is no different

This is tricky, if the range is between 1 to a billion!


infact sometimes ths prejudice is measured as patriotism

That's news to me, maddy!

And the unit for such a measurement is? :)


there's no one to stop u.....not even the admin :D

:notworthy:

[ganesh79]

Stranger,

I am seeing my idea already work in action, thanks to you.

[stranger]

Take it easy, ganesh! After all, we all will be proud when India becomes a super power no matter which side we stand now! 8)

[UnlimtedMeals]

You just gave an example of how shankar was right!

Give me a break, here! Will you?!

Then what was Shakar right about, when those punks bringing a "motherly" prostitute in their own home when the parents are out of town-where their mom and dad are living???!!!(in BOYS)

Is he trying to fix the society then?! Tell me how?!

Why did he by-pass the "A" certificate in that movie, which was very well deserved???? For helping the society?! :roll:

To help all the punks in India by showing a new way to get infected with a strange virus??? 8)

Let me diffuse some presumptions. I am not a big admirer of Shankar and he would not rate in my TOP 10 Indian filmmakers list. In fact I find some of his movies extremely cheesy. If you take Jeans, just in the first 20 minutes it is ridiculous with how he shows America to our makal.

Having said that, I think in Anniyan he atleast made more valid points than other movies. The more important part was that those points are unique in such a way that they can be adhered. I do not expect all of us to be saints one day but we can "marginally" improve in any way.

If you think it is wrong to show regard to common civil laws that he shows in Anniyan are so easily taken for granted then I am not sure how I can express further.

Finally, just wanted to say that the discussions here have been fantastic. The spike in the posts recently is interesting. I was just back from a business trip and was surprised. Though the coming weeks are gonna be brutal for me I will manifest myself as much as I can ;)

[lordstanher]

Ok since sum members in this thread insisted tat we try & speak sumthin +ve abt India instead of always poiting out -ve points, thot I'll state atleast one +ve fact for a change! :wink:
Taking the eg. of 2 cities in AP where I've been living- Hyderabad & now Vizag, u'll find tat in the local State Transport buses, there is a considerable amount of consideration given to lady passengers.....the 1st 6 rows of seats (3 on either side) in the buses r reserved for ladies & moreover even the entry/exit for them is separate from men (they enter/exit the bus at the front doorway, men from the one at the rear end)......ne men who try to enter/exit the bus via the ladies' doorway r usually stopped by the conductor.....also men aren't allowed to stand in the aisle between the rows of seats reserved for ladies.......(of course this means sum of them footboard/make the bus more crowded at the rear!)
A good system, IMHO worth implementing in buses in all Indian cities.......jus one good thing I find abt AP State trans. Buses, as they r hardly worth appreciating in most other aspects (the drivers, for eg. must still learn to always stop precisely at the bus stops, not 5-10 feet ahead! :evil: )
Atleast ladies needn't normally face a harrowing time from bad/lecherous men, as they'd normally be likely to face in crowded buses where they might seldom be in a position to retaliate! :x I'm not sure how many other cities this sytem exists........I'm told tat even in Madras buses there r separate seats for ladies but having seen them, it didn't appear tat way to me.....? :?
Also a friend of mine from Calcutta told me tat even there (being a relatively conservative city w/ a trad. look), girls/women jus can't travel alone in a bus!

[MADDY]

http://in.rediff.com/money/2005/jul/16ninan.htm

India rocks.....Indian economy rulz.... :D

[alwarpet_andavan]

http://in.rediff.com/money/2005/jul/16ninan.htm

India rocks.....Indian economy rulz.... :D
Maddy,
Are you talking about the India in Planet Earth? Or is it in Xanadu?
Try telling this to the majority of the population who are not privileged enough to know the things you are talking about, let alone experience them. And BTW, please understand that "economy" is not only for you and me but for the people ploughing the fields, wage labourers, small scale industrialists, road-workers, construction workers, tribal people, and all such people whose voice we cannot hear in the media or in discussion forums like this on the Internet

[MADDY]

andavan, see according to you economy is good for me atleast...it was not so in the past......even middle-class ppl. used to suffer.....so now economy is good for us and it'll take some time to reach all those underpriviliged ppl. also....wait sir......u cant say everything is wrong here......

[ganesh79]

I remember movies like "varumaiyin niram sigappu...". Such movies are almost non existent now. What does this mean? Now a days you have only rainbow remo singing in a ramp walk....

[MADDY]

i cant understand 1 more thing y u guys scream abt those 40% behind the poverty line , y not think abt 60% who r above the poverty line......i'm not saying that those 40% shuld be forgotten but y r u crying so much for them and forgetting the acheivements of the other 60%......strange yaar, the ways u guys find to criticise India.....

[Cinefan]

i cant understand 1 more thing y u guys scream abt those 40% behind the poverty line , y not think abt 60% who r above the poverty line......

Becos Sir,you have to be sensitive to their aspirations.Just think a guy from among the 40% sees this discussion,what will run in his mind?That his countrymen are robots who are doing very well for themselves&are not bothered about what happens to him.

Again&Again,you guys are missing the point.It's not about criticising,it's about telling ourselves-"don't become complacent,there is still a lot more to be done"

Inequality breeds jealousy which in turn leads to crime.Pls note I am NOT comparing with any other nation as every country has a section of ppl who are not doing well for themselves financially.The key is to reduce the percentages&over a loooooooong period of time,everyone's standard of living can be raised atleast to decent,acceptable levels.

[alwarpet_andavan]

And BTW, its worse than the 60-40 figure you quote

[MADDY]

see it takes time for all round development....now that a part of India is developed, it is the duty of the developed India to help the needy and help govt in changing the situation.......

cinefan, if social inequalities r the reason for crimes then y r there r so many school-shootout cases in US( ideal country according to u guys)???everybody and everything cannot be perfect okkkk??? if u can find 1 fault with India i can find 2-3 within other countries........

prosperity will prevail within few years so give this country a few more time....see, i'm not that typical vehement guy refusing to accept ur opinions but actally we r saying the same thing.....u guys r saying the glass is half empty and i'm saying glass is half full....

[Cinefan]

cinefan, if social inequalities r the reason for crimes then y r there r so many school-shootout cases in US( ideal country according to u guys.....

Excuse me,
When did I ever tell US is my idea of a perfect country :o

Re-read my posts again,I repepatedly stress that there is no need to compare ourselves with any other country.We are intelligent enough to understand our problems,it's just that we seem to lack the will&unity to tackle them.

[lordstanher]

i cant understand 1 more thing y u guys scream abt those 40% behind the poverty line , y not think abt 60% who r above the poverty line......

Becos Sir,you have to be sensitive to their aspirations.Just think a guy from among the 40% sees this discussion,what will run in his mind?That his countrymen are robots who are doing very well for themselves&are not bothered about what happens to him.

Rite again Cinefan! :wink: :D
Its true tat the middle class today- leave alone the upper class- seldom spares a thot to wat life means to the ppl. living below the BPL (Below Poverty Line).
Also for eg. when the media reports tat no. of ppl. below BPL has been reduced to around 35%, the govt. reports insist tat its only 29% comp'd to the 60% in the mid '50s.......the fact is tat their no. is decreasing very slowly indeed! :(
Whether we see such ppl. in reality in our daily lives or on sum foreign documentary on TV, most of us tend to feel ashamed......or even abashed at the thot tat many of those foreigners from Nat. Geo/ Discovery channel etc. wud see us as citizens of the same country as these wretched ppl.......we usually forget whoz really responsible for them being like this......
From wat I read in the book "The great Indian dream" by Arindam Chaudhry, 50 million tonnes of food grain is said to be locked up & rotting in the warehouses of Food Corpn. of India! enuff to feed all the 350 mil. below BPL for the next 2-3 years.......!
Also stated tat if, in fact, all the food grain sacks lying unused in our warehouses were to be packed one after another , they wud be enuff to make a path to the moon & back! :shock:
Yet we face so many mils. of starving Indians in our country.......!

[MADDY]

cinefan, by referrring "u guys", i mean all those who think India is doing bad not just u....okkk :D

Lord, even i have read that book, infact it is a very shameful situation but hope after having good PM's for 10 yrs(A.B.Vajpayee & Manmohan Singh), such things wont happen again in India.......okkk guys i'll jot down the problems that i feel India is currently facing......pls reply with ur comments and points that u feel is sinking India.......if there is any economist/HR graduate here, then he can provide a mock-solution for them...

1.Ill-literacy & child labour
2.Population ( which i think is a by-product of ill-literacy)
3.Lop sidedness of economy (ex: compare ambani and the beggar on the street...this shuld go)
4.Goverenment officials

wat say guys???

[ssanjinika]

cinefan, by referrring "u guys", i mean all those who think India is doing bad not just u....okkk :D

Lord, even i have read that book, infact it is a very shameful situation but hope after having good PM's for 10 yrs(A.B.Vajpayee & Manmohan Singh), such things wont happen again in India.......okkk guys i'll jot down the problems that i feel India is currently facing......pls reply with ur comments and points that u feel is sinking India.......if there is any economist/HR graduate here, then he can provide a mock-solution for them...

1.Ill-literacy & child labour
2.Population ( which i think is a by-product of ill-literacy)
3.Lop sidedness of economy (ex: compare ambani and the beggar on the street...this shuld go)
4.Goverenment officials

wat say guys???
Hey MADDY welcome to the "willing to accept" gang :lol: just joking.

Yup you have put the major problems we r facing today beautifully in a nutshell.
But I do think that all are problems are mainly due to population.
Its bcoz of our population ,that there are people below the poverty line..due to which there is illiteracy which in turn gives rise to child labour,job scarcity,etc
Its also due to the population that there is so much competition ,which in turn gives rise to corruption etc etc.
If we manage to reduce our population rate then I am sure we will bring down our other problems too.What do you guys think?

[stranger]

wow!!!!!!!!

ssanjinika found a way to please everybody and get away from the problem.

Yeah, let us blame it on the population for everything as ss' says!

BTW, what is the population density in Japan?! They seem to have quite a lot of people in few small islands. Are they better or worse than us? :roll:

[ganesh79]

Why blame population for everything? Isn't it good to have more human resources, after all ? Some countries are worried about their declining human resources. I am not saying we shouldn't control population. Why not just make use of the highly availble "man/woman power" and stop complaning about the "existing population"?

[lordstanher]

1.Ill-literacy & child labour
2.Population ( which i think is a by-product of ill-literacy)
3.Lop sidedness of economy (ex: compare ambani and the beggar on the street...this shuld go)
4.Government officials


Yup, tick mark for all of em..... :wink:

The last 2 esp. r the most harrowing problems we r currently facing......when I was studying my Dip. in biz. admin. in Sing., there was this lecturer of mine, a half-Chinese half-Indian, who was apparently very proud of the fact tat in Sing. the social gap between rich & poor isn't tat wide.......(and yea I've seen even beggars/vagabonds there looking fully clad & like they can eat atleast a square meal a day)......he always took delight in scoffing at India, Indonesia etc. in this regard....... :evil:
IMO, this lop-sidedness exists partly bcos of increasing popularity of privatisation/free market system where individual gains connected w/ this system r more.....therefore those who r intimately associated w/ this sytem r likely to gain more in less time........plus increasing consumerism where its become a rat-race to keep up w/ those who can afford a certain sumthin.......unlike b4 where the main emphasis was on basic necessities......
IMHO, another reason I mentioned earlier- ppl. in certain professions like IT & MBAs can end up w/ well-paying jobs (& thus seem to be the get-rich-quick types) whereas ppl. in various other professions like Arts etc. cannot hope for decent-paying jobs- if at all they can get jobs! even if they take up such subjects purely out of their own interest.........so today the word 'IT prof.' or 'MBA' has become a synonym for a successful, capable and respectable person in society! They r the guys who r picked by girls' fathers for marriage alliances.....!
So, I repeat tat this syndrome has to go........'cos every person has a right to get a decent job in watever field he/she in int'd in.......all shudn't be forced to study only IT/software or MBA jus bcos hi-paid jobs r available in those......hence a successful economy is only where ppl. of ne & every profession can afford to get jobs/respect in society........it is so in most of the developed countries......y can't it happen in ours??

[lordstanher]

Why not just make use of the highly availble "man/woman power" and stop complaning about the "existing population"?

Unftly a high populn. doesn't nec. promise a high availability of quality manpower.......only a certain no. can be fit to serve as human resource.....not to mention tat our country is one of those suffering from the largest amount of 'brain-drain', i.e, losing many skilled workers to countries tat r already developed.........eg. (again quoted from the book I mentioned) while we hav one Indian doctor for every 2400 Indians we hav 1 Ind. doctor serving 1325 Americans in the US! And the list has today extended to not just doctors or IT ppl. but even school teachers! :evil:
Therefore I strongly feel tat to make use of our potential human resources, we must first think of ways to stop the brain-drain......
I needn't mention tat r various hurdles created by the gov.t as well as individuals in employment, viz. reservations, job availability based on influence/bribery etc. which need to go.......these r the actual hurdles even more than the high populn. as even in our high populn., 30% r still illeterate......so once a way is paved for equal employment oppurtunities, even the cut-throat competition level wud come down, thus ensuring the 70% of educated ppl. fair oppurtunities.......
Also ensure better technologies tat wud tempt the highly skilled profs. to stay back in India........esp. in Medical field.......while the state of Govt. hospitals is nowhere upto matching current day medical standards, private hospitals offer better treatment/facilites only at hi-rates tat r not reachable to the avg. masses.......so the Govt. shud not hesitate to spend on developing the infrastructure of Govt. hospitals......such tat most if not all Ind. docs. shud be encouraged to serve in them rather than looking for greener pastures in the UK etc........!

[ganesh79]

Once there were few who criticized communisim. Now I see cirticisms against privitazation/capitalism. We have to take one stand. Do not complain that IT/MBA's get more jobs. In every country people get jobs only in the industry that is hot. In the US, I have seem many college graduates doing clerical jobs not related to their degree major. Now there is this rage called quixtar or quickstar (whatever it is called) in US. I know of even some bright PhDs giving up their research and venturing into it. Money and interests never go together. It is the rule of this world, not India.

If you feel IT is the India's trouble, well, then let's get rid of it. Actors and actresses are paid like in hell. Do you worry about it? After all, its due to IT that India got a global attention. In fact, investment in IT is the wisest thing to do as it just needs only man/brain power and not any advanced infrastructure, like those warranted by an automobile or air craft industry.

[lordstanher]

Ganesh,
Kindly don't misunderstand.....I'm certianly not against IT or feel tat it shud be got rid of or nething........wat I'm saying is tat it shud not be stereotyped as a 'saviour' profession for every person whoz looking for a job.....
May be good if it is given a boost by the govt.......tats fine........but the govt. is concentrating on projecting mainly this sector as an employment oasis, whereas there r so many Arts/Commerce grads. who study the subjects tat they r int'd in & it is quite poss' for them to hav jobs & come up in these fields but there is little/no hope for them afa employment in our ccountry is concerned......which is one reason y today there r so many- esp. in the south- who happen to study engg. after +2.......its not as if each & every one of them desired to study engg......infact sum of my friends who took it up tell me they did so even tho they found it tough mainly bcos they aren't promised a bright future on graduating in ne 'simple' course viz. Arts.......
And altho IT maybe a hot industry even in developed nations, its certainly not given the kind of hype tat its given by ppl. in our country 'cos there, ppl. hav chances to prosper in other professions as well (not talking abt salaries here)......I've lived in a 'developed' foreign country (Sing.) recently & I've noticed tat every person there has the oppurtunity to live a decent, comfortable life whether hez an IT whiz or a biz. executive or a lecturer in political science/history.........
So this shud be the situation even in our country........tats my point.....

[ganesh79]

It is very tough for the government of a developing country to work for everyone's interest. It is easy for everyone to work for the goverment's interest. There is no harm in working in IT sector, if you don't find an alternate employement . After all, they won't ask to sleep the floors in an IT company. They offer good life style and are open to recruit anyone. And the job is also quite challenging and not run-of-the-mill. Even Albert Einstein couldn't find a job of his own and worked as patent clerk. However, I do have some other concerns about IT sectors. It is a lot dependent on foreign investments. We should build our own indgineous IT companies, rather than being outsourcing points.

[stranger]

I bet Shankar paid income tax for every penny he got from oscar! He is such a patriot, man! :rotfl:

[ganesh79]

Films like these should be banned on charges of sedition! The drunkard, drug addict filmmakers are criticizing you and me, and licking some foreign strangers. Shankar belongs to those "group" of "Indians" who do no want to see India develop. That is the reason for anti-Indian sentiments in all his movies. In none of his movies he constructively criticized India. In Gentleman he criticized the reservation policy and in Indian he hailed the british rule. In mudhalvan he ridiculed our constitution. He made it a joke. And in Jeans, he sucks the foriegners. Boys was the only movie that is an exception. I hope he just sticks to making sex movies. Atleast a sexual awarness would be created!

[lordstanher]

Just thot of pasting an excerpt from a speech by our President tat was made at Hyderabad......I daresay similar to wat Shankar (must hav) tried to point out in Anniyan.......? :wink: :D
Altho there were sum points in the speech I personally don't agree w/, I found these lines very worthy of being posted here as I find them really thot-provoking.......

".......Like lazy cowards hounded by our fears we run to America to bask in their glory and praise their system. When the job situation in the US becomes insecure we run to England. When England experiences unemployment, we take the next flight out to the Gulf. When the Gulf is war-struck, we demand to be rescued and brought home by the Indian government.
Everybody is out to abuse and rape the country. Nobody thinks of feeding the system. Our conscience is mortgaged to money........"

Cudn't hav found it better said, no doubt! But how effective it wud've been in changing the attitude of our ppl. (atleast in Hyd. where the speech was made) is still a qsn. mark...... :(

[stranger]

People do not like "sujatha" for various reasons. I was annoyed by his "cheap dialogues" in Boys. He went into several people's "crap-list" due to that. He has made several sweeping statements which were proved to be wrong. He even justified the unjustifiable "punks" (boys) as if he came up with something great!

Anyway, I think verbally flipping finger on someone (jeez! who is not around here) in the forum is also considered taboo, though u may consider that as a "polite attitude"! 8)

[NOV]

DIGRESSION

People do not like "sujatha" for various reasons. I was annoyed by his "cheap dialogues" in Boys. He went into several people's "crap-list" due to that. He has made several sweeping statements which were proved to be wrong. He even justified the unjustifiable "punks" (boys) as if he came up with something great!
Well, I am certainly not one of them. BOYS is certainly not for family viewing; and if at all there is a fault, it is awarding the movie a U certificate.
Other than that, it was a good experiment on coming-of-age movie. If 70+ Vaali can write songs for teenagers, on the other end we have Sujatha, who captured the thoughts and feelings of youngsters effectively.

END DIGRESSION

[lordstanher]

Sujatha may hav boldly brought to light the attitudes of today's youth in his dialogues but all in all, I don't see ne message BOYS had given out....... :?
It all ultimately ended up as just another movie w/ the usual flashy songs & 'masala' scenes (sum of which Shankar might've included w/ the intention of projecting reailty as it is but I don't think it'd created ne awareness of ne kind.......just sumthing more to be goggled at by the erotica-craving members of the audiences)......the rest of the movie went like most other rich gal-luvs-poor guy-run away together- themes........so in other words, IMHO, it was a film tat was a sheer waste of reel & didn't seem to serve ne purpose at all.....! :evil:

[NOV]

please dont turn this thread into a caste discussion!

[Cinefan]

http://in.rediff.com/news/2005/aug/01guest.htm

A very relevant article to the topic,MADDY-your comments please.

In fact being a long time resident of Bangalore,most of the thoughts expressed in the article apply to this city as well.

[Nayagan]

Very relevant articles on the povert situstion in india.

Point

http://in.rediff.com/news/2005/apr/15dilip.htm

Counterpoint

http://in.rediff.com/news/2005/may/02guest1.htm

Btw,
lordstanher can you post the link to the sppech made by president.

[Nayagan]

Typos in the line..should read

Very relevant articles on the poverty situation in india.




Very relevant articles on the povert situstion in india.

Point

http://in.rediff.com/news/2005/apr/15dilip.htm

Counterpoint

http://in.rediff.com/news/2005/may/02guest1.htm

Btw,
lordstanher can you post the link to the sppech made by president.

[slperson1]

so in other words, IMHO, it was a film tat was a sheer waste of reel & didn't seem to serve ne purpose at all.....! :evil:

i think the purpose it fulfilled, just like movies are suppose to, is to entertain us while we are watching the film and make us forget our problems etc.it did that.if all movies served a purpose as in carried a message...i dont think the movie industry would be as big as it is.

[lordstanher]

Btw,
lordstanher can you post the link to the sppech made by president.

Um, sorry Nayagan, but I found tat speech not in a link/site but in the msgs. of my old school group! :D
Tat can be accessed only by the group members! So I'll copy & paste the full speech here later.......hving sum trouble w/ our net connec. now! :(

[rajraj]

http://presidentofindia.nic.in/

The link shown should have all the speeches by President Kalam.