Role of women in society (Past, Present and the Future)

[a.ratchasi]

Women... the one species that encounteres discrimination right from womb to the tomb. Let this not be a feminist propaganda but a genuine call to evaluate the treatment of womenfolk in the past, present and future not limiting to real and reel. Perhaps we could start with how women were generally potrayed in our literary works, epics included.

[pavalamani pragasam]

Be it Helen, Cleopatra, Sita, Panjali, Shakunthala, Dhamayanthi and the whole lot of epic heroines there is much to be debated in the view of socialists :twisted: ; but only admiration-sheer admiration- from a literary point of view. :D
Different threads dealt with different aspects of women's problems. No harm in consolidating again- the topic is inexhaustive :wink:

[Raghu]

pp madam

Neenga Icon-ellam paavikiranghala :shock: :lol:

[nirosha sen]

In most of our Indian mythologies, I see women as more than victims! They are either the instigators, pepetrators or the outright aggressive ones.

To my mind there's our classic Draupathi - our Polyandrist married to 5 men! Seetha - a woman who unquestioningly followed her man into the deepest of forest and paid the price like any other present day rape victim!! Though of course, she was chaste, but nevertheless had to prove it, to all and sundry :? !

[Idiappam]

I went for a tea, one afternoon - that was at the Kopi-Tiam near that Subordinate Court building here. Two women lawyers, in black cloaks, were seated there having coffee and appeared discussing something very serious. Some crime case, they must be handling, I thought.

I sat at the table next to them ottu ketkiraan. True crime story free- why not!

But they were earnestly exchanging recipes. "put some of this and some of that, stir and you get great noodles fried." No crime at all. What a waste.

Highly educated, director of MNC, Prime Minister, whatever, women never change. Feed their children, feed their husband --- with all those goodies - natural instinct, I guess.

Disapointing!

[pavalamani pragasam]

Idiappam! hearty thanks for your compliment to our "natural instinct" :D

[nirosha sen]

:huh: hey what can I say???? It's food, glorious food Pa!! The family has to eat, right? Lawyers, huh???? It's just a job!! A means to earn a living!

But the husband and children are the real tangibles of Life, me thinks! So, if a wife works hard in and outside the kitchen, she's got it right!! :D

[Raghu]

In most of our Indian mythologies, I see women as more than victims!

Sorry Niro Aunty

I have to disagree with you on this, in Hindusim women have always been given equal rights as men, we have female godesses, we worship godess, but women and men should have certain restrictions as to how to live a life, that is exactly what were preached.

now You do know 'Arthanaresswar', what does that, imply, man and women are equal,
-deleted-

[hehehewalrus]

But they were earnestly exchanging recipes. "put some of this and some of that, stir and you get great noodles fried." No crime at all. What a waste.


maybe these 2 lawyers will come running with their food items when the judge says "order order order"

[Idiappam]

"As the family could only be continued in the male line, prayers for abundance of sons are very frequent. But the birth of daughters is never desired in the Rigveda; it is deprecated in the Atharvaveda; the Yajurveda refers to girls being exposed when born; and one of the Brahmanas observes that 'to have a daughter is a misery.' This prejudice survives in India to the present day with unabated force."
---- The Imperial Gazetteer of India, Page 225 - Sanskrit Literature

[Badri]

If a.r would not mind, I would like to start much earlier. I would like to view this from an evolutionary and anthropological persepective, rather than a mere socio-psyhcological one. Would physiological differences between the male and the female have led to the discrimination?

Let me clarify. For this, we would have to take a step away from all religous/cultural/regional perspectives and view it right from the days when man appeared on the Earth and tried to form societies. Game? Then let's proceed.

The early men and women were both hunter-gatherers. There was no segregation of duties as such, and each survived by his/her own efforts. When the groups started to form, the peculiar difficulties encountered by women such as menstruation and gestation, which rendered them if not totally incapable of work, at least partially handicapped them to a great degree at least durind certain periods in their life, were prominent. The best productive years of the female were spent in child-birth and rearing, a period during which they were vulnerable physically and otherwise.

Also, the differences in physical strength of the woman vs man is all too obvious to be ignored, and this led to the segregation of duties - women became the gatherers and men became the hunters. Now, what effect would this have had on the formation of society?

Let us consider the rudimentary social formations of our closer cousins.
The other gregarious primates such as the gorilla or the chimpanzee (orangutans are solitary and not gregarious) have clear dominations spelt out. The male is dominant - the alpha male and a single male might have a harem of many females. For instance, among chimpanzees, within the community a male hierarchy, ordered more or less in linear fashion, establishes social standing, with one male as the alpha. Females have their own, somewhat confused, hierarchy. All adult males however dominate all females.

Having evolved on lines similar to the primates, this basic division has been entrenched in human behavior as well, leading to a superior male by means of brute strength and submissive females.

When early human groups had been formed, research has established that they were very parochial. In the sense that other groups of humans were considered "enemy" and wars often broke out between rival groups, again not unlike in primate societies, especially the chimps. The victorious often carried away the women, as a means of propagation. The women were once again vulnerable and needed to be gaurded, lest a rival group increase in number using their women! Compare this sentiment with behaviour among lions. When a male lion takes over a pride, his first task is to kill all the cubs of his predecessor. It is a genetic trait coded in the lion's genes to ensure only his genes are passed on, and not that of another male.

Seen from all these perspectives, it becomes clear that the woman became viewed as a person who required protection, who would have to be provided for, as she would not be in a position to provide for herself during considerable portions of her life. In a harsh world, where survival demands total productivity in terms of hunting-gathering, it is but natural that the one who is best at this would be considered superior and the ones that were not as good would be considered a step below. Thus, we have an alpha male (the chief, the king) and all others subservient to the alpha male (including all other males and all the females).

Among the subordinates, once again, the males ranked higher due to their physical stamina and productivity, relegating the females to a still inferior rank in the hierarchy.

Perhaps thus began the discrimination of women which has continued to modern society. Relgions have had nothing to do with introducing the concept. Perhaps they, like every other social function, did propagate the concept, but its basic inception lies in the differences between the sexes.

DISCLAIMER: The views written above are based on a number of research articles on anthropology that I have read over the years. They are as objective as can be, and I have no interest in getting into a debate over them. As far as I am personally concerned, men and women are equal, all things considered.

[Surya]

Nice post Raghu!! :D
U stole the words from my mouth! 8)


Niro, :D
Shaktham is part of Hinduism. And in Shaktham it infact says that without Shakti, Shiva has no power. It's also said that by worshiping Shakti is equivilant to worshipping Bhrahma, Vishnu and Shivan.

The Soundraya Lahari, is mostly saying that Shakti is the superior god, just as Vishnu is to vaihnavas, and Shiva to Shaivists.

Like Raghu said, women are always given equal if not more than equal importance, in the Sanatan Religion. :)

[nirosha sen]

:( Sorry guys. True! religion and all its wondrous glory has it's impact on society at large! Nothing else has influenced society more than the way our belief systems has, thruout the history of Mankind!

But the reality of what's really been happening thru the ages, is the one that raises my ire and concern!

For your information, all religions give exalted positions in their respective Faiths for women, but quite probably because myths are no threat to reality, perhaps, hmm???!!

Sure, we worship Gods and Goddesses, precisely for the reason that they are the Untouchables! Nothing can be said against them, which is why we put them on pedestals, compared to mere mortals like us now, could we????!!! :wink:

[a.ratchasi]

On one hand, goddesses are revered, on the other the house woman is battered. Why?

What went wrong where?
Is it because the goddes has the 'power' to grant the wishes of the common man and the lady of the house has not?

Religion was seen as sole factor that changed miscreants to decent citizens. It helped to up keep the morality that was non-existent before. Religion abhored theft, murder and adultery and the common man lived up to the code of conduct as outlined by the sages. Men and women lived happily following the doctorines until men started to take the upper hand. Is it by their own account or by other influences?

A proper woman abides her husband through thick and thin, they said. Fine, but what if he is a rogue? This, unfortunately was backed up by the classics. Misinterpretations, I would say but for the common man, these are the words of gods. Did the classics truly outline the status of women during that era or were they intended to portray women as how they were required to be? Did the classics bring more harm than good?

[pavalamani pragasam]

Very interesting, badri :D

I wish to add this: we have come a long way from our hunting-gathering past; neither can we ape the apes any longer-even instinctively- having come up so many rungs in the ladder of civilisation. We interact electronically while no monkey does that. (A lot of monkey business we are capable of is another matter :wink: )

We as intelligent beings with our intellectual achievements should think with more clarity & behave with more propriety. My personal opinion is emphasis should be laid on what men & women are genetically, temperamentally best suited for.

Just like different professions require different talents- take doctors & engineers, 2 categories for example-to succeed in their fields. Neither of them is inferior to the other; only their skills & the manner of weilding them are different.

Men & women also have different abilities to excel in. A proper understanding of this fact will solve many problems in the world. We are marching towards more knowledgeable, more luxurious, more intelligent lifestyles. To keep our achievements meaningful & steady we need to understand the basic differences in the make-up & needs of the sexes.

[Badri]

Did the classics truly outline the status of women during that era or were they intended to portray women as how they were required to be? Did the classics bring more harm than good?

Depends on which way you look at it, a.r

Personally, since I am more acquainted with the Indian epics, let me speak of them. Broken down to a nutshell,

Ramayana
Ravana abducts Sita. His entire family is destroyed.

Moral of the story: Do not ill-treat women, you will be ruined.


Mahabharatha
Duryodhana causes the worst possible insult to Draupadi. His entire family is destroyed, along with everyone who supported the outrage.

Moral of the story: Do not demean the woman, you will be ruined.

Now tell me, forgetting all the sidelines put in to humor the bluff and blusterous male, have the classics done harm or good?

[a.ratchasi]

Badri, you should have known me better than that by now. :cry:


A proper woman abides her husband through thick and thin, they said. Fine, but what if he is a rogue? This, unfortunately was backed up by the classics. Misinterpretations, I would say

Anyways, Seetha and Draupadi aside, how about the likes of Kannagi and Nalayani? Not in a nutshell, again please. :)

[Badri]

Badri, you should have known me better than that by now. :cry:


A proper woman abides her husband through thick and thin, they said. Fine, but what if he is a rogue? This, unfortunately was backed up by the classics. Misinterpretations, I would say

Anyways, Seetha and Draupadi aside, how about the likes of Kannagi and Nalayani? Not in a nutshell, again please. :)

Of course I know you, a.r

But since you had raised the question last, I kind of made it as though answering you!!

The Kannagi case is nothing new or strange. A man going behind another leaving his wife is nothing new! Kannagi's acceptance of the reformed Kovalan too maybe because of her own love for him, which has continued notwithstanding his infatuation with Madhavi. If anyone wronged her, it was Kovalan, not the Pandya King! That's only a case of justice gone wrong.

With Nalayini again, what if her whole hearted adherence to her hubby was nothing but love for him? Isn't this again a natural occurence? Although I have stayed far and away from romantic novels, I am told women loving a man passionately to forgive him his mistakes and disabilities is a common theme of many a novel. That becomes a personal preference, rather than a female stereotype.

However, in both cases, Kannagi and Nalayini have been portrayed as heroines of great might! Isn't this nothing but supernaturalizing what a woman naturally felt for her beloved?

Dunno if this was the answer you were looking for, but anyways...

[nirosha sen]

I just had the privilege of watching an incredibly good movie, just now! Called, Mona Lisa smiles, starring Julia Roberts and a whole cast of women, Pa!!

Very thought provoking movie, abt women of Wessley College of 1953, and their views to life and love and the notion of a good education. Julia Roberts plays Katherine Watson, an Art teacher, whose unorthodox methods of teaching earns her the ire of more traditional, straight-laced students/parents.

What struck me abt this movie was the theme itself. It's like this little window for contemporary women to look back into the past of how American women thought and felt abt their lives and their approach to their idea of education.

It struck me on the sharp discord on how women even then were trying to balance their perception of marriage and education and all the worldly opportunities that awaits them. Their sole role of attending college is more like a waiting period before marriage and housework!!

Women had been steretyped then and certainly much had changed since. But then again, nothing has either for many women out there, be it 1953 or 2000+!!

I for one am certainly glad that the opportunity to think, nurture my thoughts and put them to use is made easier with the passing of time, as opposed to days of yonder!

Yup, some things of the past have indeed changed for the better and yet there are others that had stood still in their own time....

[a.ratchasi]

In both given cases, is it not only their bakthi towards their husbands highlighted till to this day?

Unlike Sakunthalai, these two maidens are not known for the love they had for their husbands rather, they are held highly by the masses for their obligatory or shall I say, their blind devotion towards their men.

The love factor that you have highlighted is indeed refreshing. Though I do find it difficult to accept.

Perhaps, I am seeing it from a contemporary view...perhaps I am not. :)


Dunno if this was the answer you were looking for, but anyways...
Views.......Badri, views :)

[Badri]

ar said:

The love factor that you have highlighted is indeed refreshing. Though I do find it difficult to accept.

Why do you find it difficult to accept? A lot of women, and men too for that matter are sometimes so much in love that they are willing to let go of a hundred mistakes, sometimes even infidelity. They just want the person so much that they are willing to overlook the faults.

In my opinion, or view, if you prefer :) their natural love was deified...people saw the devotion and its reward and made the connection...maybe it was just their pure love that did work those miracles that are attributed to them...sigh, I am being such a romantic! must be the cloudy day outside that is doing this to me!! :lol: :lol:

[r_kk]

[tscii:9ab3500d7c]Dear Badri,

I understand what you are trying to say…
If someone loves his/her life partner or lover just because she/he also mutually loves him/her with whole hearted loyalty, then it in not love. It is just a “Panda maatru Viyapaaram”. Expectation and demand are not part of love.

Am I correct?
A real love should accept mistakes, guide and comfort even if loved one failed miserably.

But the fact is…
We expect such characters only from Women!!! That’s what our epics did. Old kings/Hero/ God characters can have multiple wives, but they expect their wives to be 100% loyal to them.

If we can keep “Karpu” as common to men and women as Bharathi said then contemporary women may accept what men folks expects….

Had you seen Tabu’s dialogue in a movie “Astitwa”?

[/tscii:9ab3500d7c]

[rajasaranam]

badri,

Ok tell me how many stories are there to glorify a man's Love towards his wife????
Ive read many a stories to glorify a mans love towards his parents, kiths and kins like :
'shravana'- love towards parents
'guhan' - love towards friend
'hanuman' - love towards master
'lakshmana' - love towards brother

The examples ive quoted are of the category 'unhindered' love no matter what happens or what all pains they have to endure because of them, they love the other obssessively. similar are the cases of 'kannagi' or 'nalayini' 'thamayanthi' 'shakunthala' or 'sita'.
But i cant even find a single story to say about a man's love towards a female. The stories in which you speak about love of a women for a husband are said to keep womenfolk in check under male dominance....
Badri no matter how hard we try we cant escape from the harsh reality that women were/are treated as a 'machine' to give childbirth in order to carry on the generations. If males had a choice other than a female for their sexual and generation lineage needs... no wonder he would have made extinct females long back.

[rajasaranam]

r_kk,

was busy typing - antha gapla naan solla vanthatha solliteenga :D

[r_kk]

Dear Rajasaranam,
I am happy to note that you are also thinking in the same line on this issue. Your reply is more elaborate with examples and hence it might have taken some time to type... Keep it up...

[nirosha sen]

Yes, it's the same perception that's perpetuated in our Indian movies too!! The more the woman cries and suffers, the better the whole theme is for the masses!!

Just how many movies actually show women as strong, independant and resourceful in tackling their problems???? Hollywood is no exception Pa!!

[Shekhar]

I wonder why all the discussion is about women always!! ..and started by women too!! :) :wink:

[Idiappam]

Well 50% of the population, aren't they!

[pavalamani pragasam]

[tscii:43dd0d8816]What need is there to talk about men separately ? Since “men” are included in “women”(like an appendage!!!) they cant have any interest/worthwhile or mentionable activity/achievement/motivation/purpose excluding women. So anything related to women- problems, pleasures, prides, possessions, pangs, predicaments etc compulsorily leads to men, directly or indirectly. Women are wise to realise this and indulge in discussing, updating, consolidating data that involves their happiness mechanised/manipulated by their complement.[/tscii:43dd0d8816]

[lordstanher]

in Hindusim women have always been given equal rights as men, we have female godesses, we worship godess, but women and men should have certain restrictions as to how to live a life, that is exactly what were preached.

Altho religion is not allowed to be talked here, I cudn't help agreeing w/ Raghu! :D
IMO, it was only Manu's code tat poisoned the minds of men in our society, denying them education, property or even basic dignity in a family......
There was also this little flaw of a wife being required to consider her husband as a God in the past.......this might've tended to tempt men into arrogance w/ their wives, leading to domestic violence.....?


now You do know 'Arthanaresswar', what does that, imply, man and women are equal

I don't wish to go overboard here by steering into religion....but just rem'd. this saying in Sanskrit I once read abt in school "God resides only in the house where the woman of the house is worshipped."
Unftly many ppl. (even among Indians) r of the opinion tat out culture/tradition (in this case Hinduism) r the reasons for the relatively backward status of women in our society but it is not so.....as Raghu said, its only tat both men and women were required to follow certain 'restrictive' norms (ie, virginity until marriage, abstinence from tobacco/alcohol, chastity in marriage etc.) tat were rightly preceived to be for a righteous, ideal life.....
Unftly most men didn't stick to these norms, mainly out of arrogance and all the worse tat society still accepted them, gave them dignity......women, however, continued to follow these norms as they were still determined to be righteous and also bcos society wudn't hav accepted them had they tended to stray......
In fact tat women hav been facing so many atrocities/unjust acts from men in our nation indicates tat those men hav not been following our culture!

[lordstanher]

Yes, it's the same perception that's perpetuated in our Indian movies too!! The more the woman cries and suffers, the better the whole theme is for the masses!!
Just how many movies actually show women as strong, independant and resourceful in tackling their problems????

True. However, today's Indian movies (& various other media) hav of late, taken to perpetuating a negative image of women in our society, apparently bent upon projecting women as bundles of repressive sexuality w/ supressed desires ready to burst out of them like volcanoes, looking for an oppurtunity to cross the line of traditions/values..... :evil:
Bollywood made a string of movies w/ such themes in the year 2003...... :twisted: , which IMO, was as sickening & mind-poisoning- if not more than- showing women shedding tears and brooding over their fate......!
I'm glad to find PP ma'm over here as this is a point tats very much in accordance w/ an issue tat she (& I) emphasise on- the Media! :twisted:
While depicting women as weak, dependent creatures bearing the brunt of male arrogance/sadism made them appear so in the eyes of society even in reality, portraying them repeatedly in a negative role (esp. when the 'Bharatiya nari' is said to be the epitome of virtue & modesty/chastity) creates equal damage to them in the mindset of the society. Its guaranteed to make men undermine women even more as objects of attraction/desire rather than treat them equally w/ dignity.....!
Unftly the celebrities who play such roles in these movies r actually applauded by majority of the same society tat insists on maintaining culture & modesty/virtuousness in women in daily life......how 2 faced can it get??!! :twisted:

[nirosha sen]

Well whatever the virtue all the world's religions may preach, it has and is being brandished as a weapon to repress women as a whole, Pa!!

In any society, that professes some sort of a theological rule, intepretations of religious norms have been the culprit! Looking around neighbouring countries is a clear cut example!!

History has always borne witness to the many atrocities that women have been subjected to and continue to do so. Somehow, compared to the East, it is the West that had helped in anykind of emancipation for women!!

[Surya]

Intepretations of religious norms have been the culprit!

Niro,
Like what? :D
I'm not challenging ur views, or trying to argue or anything here. I'm just curious. In Hinduism, since I don't know too much about other religions excempt Islam, what are some examples?

Sati can't be used. Sati's origin is completly different and not an interpretation of religious norms what-so-ever. :D

8)

[hehehewalrus]

Sati can't be used. Sati's origin is completly different and not an interpretation of religious norms what-so-ever. :D


What about child marriage?
What about devadasi system of child prostituion which still continues?

Where are the ENLIGHTENED HOLY COWS and WHY have they done nothing to stop all these?

[aravindhan]

I'm not challenging ur views, or trying to argue or anything here. I'm just curious. In Hinduism, since I don't know too much about other religions excempt Islam, what are some examples?

Sati can't be used. Sati's origin is completly different and not an interpretation of religious norms what-so-ever. :D 8)
What is your definition of Hinduism and Hindu religious norms? We'll need to make sure we're talking about the same thing before we start discussing what the Hindu religion says about women.

[Surya]

We're talking about the degration of WOMEN here. Child marraige wasn't aimed at a certain sex. It effects both.

The Devadasi system is kind of tricky. How would u say that it's an mis-interpretation of religion? They were a group in which the women had to learn Bharathanatiyam or the regional dance. These women were later on taken advantage of, by immoral men. But....how would u fit that under religion?? It's something that was created very recently, without any instructions, or any sort of info in the Vedas, or Gita etc.

That's the thing with Indian Culture. Not everything can go under religion. Somethings are just practices, like the Devadasi System, and Sati.

PS: Where in sweet heaven do the holy cows come into all this? :? :? :? :? :banghead:

[Surya]

Exactly aravindhan,
We should have defined that.

I guess things mentioned in sacred texts can go under religion.

Sati, adn the Dvadasi system don't fall under that, those are very recent. Those are not interpretations of religious things. It's origin has very little if any to do with religion.

So,
Child Marraige can't be used, since we're talking about the degretion of WOMEN in pirticular.

Devadasi/Sati can't either. Doesn't fall under religion.

And the Holy Cows.......:? :huh:

[aravindhan]

I guess things mentioned in sacred texts can go under religion. Sati, adn the Dvadasi system don't fall under that, those are very recent.
That begs the question of what a "sacred text" is. Are law books like the Manusmrti sacred texts? Are puranas? What about the epics? I have seen people argue that only the vedas (or even more specifically, the samhitas and upanishads) and the gita should be treated as sacred texts, but that is a very new idea, and it's not how Hindus have traditionally seen the religion. Others reject everything post-Mauryan (and especially Guptan) as being a "recent innovation", but that accounts for 15 centuries of Hindu society and we can't really leave that out of the reckoning. When we're considering how the Hindu religion has historically treated women, we must take into account what people did in the name of Hinduism and how they actually practiced it.

In the Mahabharata, for example, we see some wives burning themselves on their husbands' pyres while others do not. In later days, there are approving references to the practice in puranic texts. All of these were repeatedly used as justifications for the practice of sati in mediaeval times. Similarly, the misogynism of the authors of some dharmashastras had its effect on the way women were treated and what they could and could not do. Property rights and the status of widows are a good example. And then there's the whole pati-parameshwar thing, which ended up requiring women to accept subservience to their husbands as a religious duty. We can argue now about what a "pure" interpretation of each of these actually requires or does not require (and that in itself is a discussion worth having), but that won't change the fact that the imposition of discriminatory laws was justified on religious grounds for a very long time.

[Surya]

In the Mahabharata, for example, we see some wives burning themselves on their husbands' pyres while others do not. In later days, there are approving references to the practice in puranic texts. All of these were repeatedly used as justifications for the practice of sati in mediaeval times.

That rings a bell! I remember reading that somewhere! :D thanks for refreshing my mem! I still don't entierly agree with Niro Aunty's point.



We can argue now about what a "pure" interpretation of each of these actually requires or does not require (and that in itself is a discussion worth having)

That would be an interesting debate! :D

[gaddeswarup]

Aravindhan wrote:


That begs the question of what a "sacred text" is. Are law books like the Manusmrti sacred texts? Are puranas? What about the epics? I have seen people argue that only the vedas (or even more specifically, the samhitas and upanishads) and the gita should be treated as sacred texts, but that is a very new idea, and it's not how Hindus have traditionally seen the religion. Others reject everything post-Mauryan (and especially Guptan) as being a "recent innovation", but that accounts for 15 centuries of Hindu society and we can't really leave that out of the reckoning. When we're considering how the Hindu religion has historically treated women, we must take into account what people did in the name of Hinduism and how they actually practiced it.

Just a query. Are there any definitive versions of the sacred texts or were some of them revised from time to time and different people follow different versions?
Another query. Did these practices vary over time and place. I remember reading in "Castes of Mind" by Nicholas Dirks that widow remarriages and such events took place in temples during the Nayaka period in Tamilnadu ( I am travelling and do not have the book with me but it is somewhere around pp70 onwards) and that women were banned from some temples later.
These are just queries and I would appreciate any information. Regards,
Swarup

[Surya]

revised from time to time and different people follow different versions?

There are just like Valmiki Ramayan, and Kamba ramayan. Mentions of Sati, which isn't part of Hinduism, in the mahabarath, might be from one of the revised versions, since Sati didn't exist until recent times, when compared to the age of Hinduism. :)

[nirosha sen]

Well Pa - I stand by what I said earlier!! Religions by themselves are all held sacred all right, but what eventually governs society at large is the intepretation.

It is from these ideas that practices came to be in existence and on that strength that they remained to put the fear of God, if you like, in the masses!

Let it be any religion, all laws governing mankind and the making of any new ones, have always had their justification with religion as their basis! This is an undeniable fact, attested to, by the history books themselves.

Yup, we can argue till the cows come home, how such and such practice is never advocated in the holy books, but for those who wield the big stick, it was always done with the stick in one hand and the revered Good Book on the other!!

[aravindhan]

There are just like Valmiki Ramayan, and Kamba ramayan. Mentions of Sati, which isn't part of Hinduism, in the mahabarath, might be from one of the revised versions, since Sati didn't exist until recent times, when compared to the age of Hinduism. :)
I think you will find that Sati is older than you think. The Greek historian Diodorus Siculus mentions the custom in the 1st century BC, and states that Greek sources from the 4th century BC also talk about it being practiced in the Indus area. There are inscriptions recording cases of sati (the so-called "sati stones") which date back to 500 AD or so. Given also that, in addition to all this, Hindu temples are built to people who commit sati, and that those who justify the practice do so with reference to the puranas and epics, saying it isn't a Hindu custom is going a little too far. There are plenty of Hindu customs (I would go so far as to say the majority) which do not originate in the Vedas.

I would again emphasise that later works like Tryambaka's Stridharmapaddati repeatedly justify the status they assign to women based on references to classical religious texts. Surya, it's all well to say that the "correct" interpretation of millennia-old texts assigns equality to women, but you should recognise that this is not how the texts have been interpreted for most of our recorded history. To really understand one's religion and culture, one has to face up to its worst moments as much as glorying in its best.

[aravindhan]

Just a query. Are there any definitive versions of the sacred texts or were some of them revised from time to time and different people follow different versions?
There are differing manuscript traditions, but the differences across these traditions tend not to be very major. There are a few exceptions, but these mostly relate to purely religio-philosophical issues, and not to questions with any practical consequences.

The main differences arise because there were so many texts around, and different groups prioritised different texts. Then there were various commentaries on the law books which sought to explain exactly how the codes should be applied. These differed very significantly, too, and interpretations also changed over time. All together, these contributed to the existence of a bewildering array of differening interpretations in mediaeval India of what exactly "Hindu law" required.

[gaddeswarup]

Sri Aravindhan,
Many thanks for your explanation. I never paid much attention to caste or religion. But after retirement, I have started reading a bit since these still seem to play a strong role in Indian Society. Thanks and regards,
swarup

[lordstanher]

Well whatever the virtue all the world's religions may preach, it has and is being brandished as a weapon to repress women as a whole, Pa!!

NS, u'll forgive me for differing but I daresay tat certain norms in religions (Hinduism for eg.) tat had been laid down in the interests of security/reputation for women hav, in recent years, been misinterpreted as means of 'repression'......?? :D
OK if for eg., in our religion, it is deemed immoral/forbidden for women to say, consume alcohol of ne kind in ne quantity, then I wud be glad to hav my wife/daughter abiding by it rather than dismiss it as a 'repression' and allow them to go to bars & get drunk (which might even make them liable for other men to take advantage of them in tat state....)? (As for me, no I don't hav this habit, despite being a man! :D )
Also I daresay, many ppl. r confusing certain practices tat had been included into our mainstream religion, as Surya said, w/ original religious norms??
One most well-known eg. is the introduction of 'purdah' system (keeping the head/face covered in public) for women in the north, which was either imposed by the then moghul rule or deliberately adopted as a means of security for women's dignity/reputation, going by the threats to their modesty tat they'd faced during those times.......unftly it got streamlined into the main Hinduism in the north & has since remained a vital custom of theirs to this date!


Somehow, compared to the East, it is the West that had helped in anykind of emancipation for women!!

Are u entirely sure of tat?? :D It has become a common fad for nearly all nations in the East to look towards the West when it comes to women's rights/respect. While the grass of course appears greener on the other side, if u take a closer look u'll notice tat there r loopholes for women even in countries where they r more 'liberated'........r we 100% sure tat women r better respected in say, US than in the East??
AFAIK, women r more or less stereotyped as purely meant for attraction of the opposite sex even there, they suffer from exploitation even there....! One positive assurance might be tat the law/justice system is far less corrupt and makes them hopeful of getting justice.
And besides, is it best to remain devoid of ne of the so-called repressive religious/social norms tat we practise?? Bcos I feel tat on the downside, it has also resulted in women in the West adopting negative habits as rapidly/widely as men (eg. smoking/drinking...) thus I daresay misusing the concept of freedom/feminism/equality......?
So this tells us tat every society has had an up-side as well as down-side! Therefore its upto us to choose only wat is beneficial or fair from a particular society rather than glorifying them in general and debasing all of our own social norms tat we r familiar w/! Well, tats my thot...... :D

[lordstanher]

Sati, adn the Dvadasi system don't fall under that, those are very recent. Those are not interpretations of religious things. It's origin has very little if any to do with religion.
Child Marraige can't be used, since we're talking about the degretion of WOMEN in pirticular.

Yes, Sati was indeed a more recent concept, again- if I'm not mistaken- introduced chiefly in the north in view of the then prevailing circumstances (viz. Mughal rule?).......as husbands were considered protectors of their wives, it was prob. feared tat once the hsuband died, the widow lost all security tat safeguarded her reputation, hence they sought it as a 'solution' to hav the wife end her life alongw/ her dead husband.......
I believe it were the same cirumstances in case of child marriages......introduced as a desperate means to make girls/women end up in a more protective environment asap......

[pavalamani pragasam]

There is much sense in what lordstanher says.

[hehehewalrus]

Type "origin of sati" in google and see. You will get several links. Go through all of them to get different perspectives. Dont take anyone's word on this forum for granted. Everyone has a different axe to grind.

[nirosha sen]

Lord - Yes, I do concede your points, Pa!

I was referring to laws/customs that kept women shackled to all sorts of notions on how we should behave, in a male-dominated society/ies!!

If you say, that the West alone, should not be attributed to any kind of reforms for the emancipation of women as separate entities, why even as citizens in their own rights, in many countries, I will leave it to you to substantiate your claims where the East is concerned.

In other words, the onus is now on you, to refute my earlier statements, as you maybe more erudite on the subject, and I would love to hear from you on the matter! :D

[nirosha sen]

Okay - I would like to steer this discussion to the very issue of achievements! And the women who had contributed to the betterment of the world we live in.

One who comes to my mind is Margaret Sanger(hope I got her last name right!!). She helped to bring relief to many women out there, to take charge of their fertility. Now, that's empowerment for women the world over, Pa!! :wink:

[aravindhan]

Type "origin of sati" in google and see. You will get several links. Go through all of them to get different perspectives. Dont take anyone's word on this forum for granted. Everyone has a different axe to grind.
Whatever you do, don't look on the web for information on sati. You will get certainly a number of perspectives, but the vast majority of them are quite innocent of any knowledge of history.

My suggestion would be to start with Sakuntala Narsimhan's book "Sati: a Study of Widow Burning in India", which presents a very well researched historical and sociological analysis of the practice. After that, I recommend you read Ananda Coomaraswamy's essay on sati in his collection "The Dance of Shiva", and follow it up with any of Ashis Nandy's essays on sat. Both authors take a very contraversial position on sati, refusing to condemn it outright, but they provoke you into thinking quite deeply about the subject. Since Ashis Nandy is Christian and Ananda Coomaraswamy was Anglo-Indian, they are free of the most common biases one finds in discussions of this topics (although they obviously have their own axe to grind), and both have researched their subject very well. I also recommend the essays in the collection "Sati: the blessing and the curse", because they offer a number of very different perspectives.

If that piques your curiosity, you could start digging through primary sources. Book 2 of Diodorus Siculus's Bibliotheca historia is a good starting point (I recommend CH Oldfather's translation, because it also points out problems with his accounts). Take a look also at the sati stones one finds scattered around India - I suggest you start with the ones of Bengal, because they are very well documented in print, and go back to the Pala-Sena period.

It's hard work, but it'll be rewarding because it will give you a much better - and infinitely more accurate - picture of the place of sati in mediaeval Indian society than the web will.

[Surya]

Lord,
Nice! 8)


Are u entirely sure of tat?? It has become a common fad for nearly all nations in the East to look towards the West when it comes to women's rights/respect. While the grass of course appears greener on the other side, if u take a closer look u'll notice tat there r loopholes for women even in countries where they r more 'liberated'........r we 100% sure tat women r better respected in say, US than in the East??

Kinda late, but
Nice post! Exactly! Just because women have a job, drive cars, smoke/drink, here doesn't mean that the west is very liberated for women etc. Even here, women are discriminated against, more indrectly, up until the 70's women were mainly expected to only bake things and make babies. When it comes to promotions in jobs, men are the first preference. Ex: When I recently got promoted as one of the partners, I was quite surpriced, because I had a female collegue who was doing a hell of a lot more than I was, mainly because she needed it more, because she was a lot older. Why was I chosen when a female collegue (spelling! Spelling!! Spelling!!! :banghead:) does a lot more work, and puts forth more effort than me? Sexism! I've never worked in India, or any other eastern countries, so can u imagine something like that happening there?

When was the last time america had a President who isn't WHITE/MALE/CHRISTIAN? But India, a country which is seen as oppressing women, has had 2 female PMs. Indira, and Sonia.


Even though it seems that America is a land of equal oppertunities, there are many ways in which Women are oppressed still. Were they the ones to start the provess of liberation? Maybe, but they have now surely regressed.

:lo: @ Hehehe.

[aravindhan]

Why was I chosen when a female collegue (spelling! Spelling!! Spelling!!! :banghead:) does a lot more work, and puts forth more effort than me? Sexism! I've never worked in India, or any other eastern countries, so can u imagine something like that happening there?
It does happen in India in more "traditional" companies, where many people still have something of a notion that women will stop work at some stage because they will get married and have children. But you make a good point. Having taught at universities in both Europe and India, I can say quite confidently that female heads of faculty (and female college principals) are more common in India than in Europe by several orders of magnitude. Again, in Europe, there are subjects at the university level which are considered typically "female subjects" and some which are typically "male subjects". It is far, far more common for a girl in India to study engineering than it is for a girl in England.

But female CEOs are still quite rare in India, for some reason.

[Idiappam]

This question has been lingering in my mind for a long time:

Why women cry? Men don't!

[NM]

This question has been lingering in my mind for a long time:

Why women cry? Men don't!

Thunderbread - are you absolutely sure that men DON'T cry???? :evil:

[Idiappam]

This question has been lingering in my mind for a long time:

Why women cry? Men don't!

Thunderbread - are you absolutely sure that men DON'T cry???? :evil:

real men don't cry!!!

[rajraj]

Nirosha, a.r : I think the past has been beaten to death. What do you think of the present? I think women have come a long way in the past fifty years. I will give you one example: When I started engineering there was one woman studying engineering in the whole of Madras state ( as it was known then). Now, it is probably more than 25 percent. Engineering used to be male dominated even in US. It has changed a lot. So has medicine.
Where do you think they have made significant progress? Where do you think they need to do more?

[lordstanher]

There is much sense in what lordstanher says.

Sorry a bit late to catch up but my net had to be renewed! :D
Neways, Thank u PP ma'm......I'm glad if I've contributed ne worthwhile discussions in this thread! :D
However, I must admit tat I was also bracing myself for ne attacks tat I feared from ne-one out here.... :lol: esp. since most ppl. nowadays take the West as a prime eg. w/ respect to women's rights/dignity & I've found many ppl. (inc. my own mother! :wink: ) flaring up on hearing ne - points abt the West in this regard! :D

[lordstanher]

Type "origin of sati" in google and see. You will get several links. Go through all of them to get different perspectives. Dont take anyone's word on this forum for granted. Everyone has a different axe to grind.

A valid point indeed, walrus bhai.....but then, surely its also poss' tat ppl. who post such info. on the net (which u'll apparently stumble over while googling) also r different individuals w/ a different axe to grind, thus apparently leading us to different views yet again......? :wink:
Hence I'm rather skeptical abt surfing the net resources for such info....there was one time when, while discussing the Gita in the hub, sumone posted a link showing one of the Gita quotes & I found the translation of the same much different from my personal copy at home! :D
Coming across issues like these, I often wish I was still in Hyd.......'cud've visited my old school (which is very close to our ex-house!) & tried finding out more on this from my old his. teacher as I reckon the knowledge of an expert/professional in this subject wud suit us better in our queries.....?
Neways, I'll be visiting hyd. day-after-tom for a few days......will keep this in mind for clarification! :D
PS>> Also agree w/ Aravindhan's opinion abt referring the books in qsn.

[lordstanher]

Lord - Yes, I do concede your points, Pa!

Tks for tat, glad if u found them worth agreeing with! :D
However, as I said, they're my thots.......'wudn't intend to force my views down on sumone else if I cud help it! :D


I was referring to laws/customs that kept women shackled to all sorts of notions on how we should behave, in a male-dominated society/ies!!

Um...sorry I didn't so far come across u mentioning exactly wat kind of laws/customs r deemed as the captors of women in 'male-dominated' societies (do u mean in our society alone?) :?
Aside, I daresay it all boils down to individual perspective, which explains our different inferences/opinions in this matter....??
No doubt in the East (let's consider our society), as opposed to the more 'free' West, certain norms were laid down on the way women shud conduct themselves in our society......at this point, I'm more comfortable taking the last 50 odd years for women in our society as a template reg. social customs/norms (I've personally found sum controversial issues reg. status of women in sum of the more ancient times tat far contradict the 'pristine' image tat our women were required to uphold in the last 50 odd yrs of 'modern' society)....
Now as I said, if sum of these norms were indeed proved to be beneficial or morally upholding the status of women in our society (esp. b4 men), then surely it isn't wrong to follow them? :D
For eg. while greeting sumone of the opposite sex, I personally feel tat our custom of greeting w/out being allowed ne physical contact (even a smile/simple 'hello' wud do if not the trad. namaste!) wud make a woman feel far more dignified as opposed to the Western (esp. American) way of actually hugging them all over & even kissing them on the cheek etc....! :D
I wudn't always trust even men who offer a handshake to women as knowing the nature of certain men, surely its poss' tat he cud just use it as an excuse for touching women......? (I've noticed tat sum men even hold the woman's hand w/ both their palms for a while, yet she can't react even feeling uncomfy abt it!).......and then therez the more common eg. abt moral policing reg. girls/women's dressing in our country.......again, if a woman gets noticed more for her intelligence when so-called 'conservatively' dressed (regardless of wat dress it might be), y wudn't she want to remain tat way, rather than project herself as being known for everything but her intelligence?? :D
(of course I admit tat sum of the Mid-East nations hav gone overboard in this regard by insisting on 'burqha' for women in public).....
As for the argument abt y this 'rule' shud apply to only women and not to men, I'm sure many of us wud know the natural psychological set-up of men vs women, which makes men liable to be attracted to women based more on appearance/physical attributes......but never the other way round! Therefore surely, its not the qsn. of male domination in this regard....? :D


If you say, that the West alone, should not be attributed to any kind of reforms for the emancipation of women as separate entities, why even as citizens in their own rights, in many countries, I will leave it to you to substantiate your claims where the East is concerned.......and I would love to hear from you on the matter! :D

Ok, so u wud say tat the West, devoid of specific religious/cultural norms, is known to place women on a far higher pedestal as opposed to the East (esp. countries like India)......and may I ask how sure we can be of tat?? I suggest we look at their day-2-day social interactions, way of life etc. not just looking at the degree of success in their professional life, climbing up the social ladder etc......
For eg. the West may not be as 'conservative' as we r to make a fuss abt how a woman shud dress in public etc.......but then if u notice, most of the adverts. in the various media based in the West depict scantily clad women while advertising/promoting their products.....I've noticed it cud be even products tat seldom hav nething to do w/ women, eg. car spare-parts! And its very common thru'out the Western nations.....
So my qsn. is y depict women in tat way at all if its not considered provocative to dress w/ min. clothing! Obv. even they admit tat women dressed/projected in this way attract more attention......so is this not exploiting a woman's physical attributes for a mere commercial gain?? Doesn't it project them as mere objects of physical attraction?? Thus men wud surely mentally exploit them even further, which wud far contradict emancipation of women in the West....? :D
Neways, tats it for hearing more from me I guess! Again, I'm sure others wud hav different views to offer! :D

[lordstanher]

Exactly! Just because women have a job, drive cars, smoke/drink, here doesn't mean that the west is very liberated for women etc.

Surya,
Exactly! And as we all know, women hav had jobs, driven cars etc. here even in the past when India was thot of as more opressive towards them comp'd to the West....not to mention the fact tat women hav even held jobs w/ high positions and hav been as educated as their Western counterparts, despite always being traditionally clad (until recently)...! As for the smoking/drinking bit, I don't think women in the West (or ne country for tat matter) cud aim at achieving emancipation by adopting bad habits tat men r usually known for.....rather it degrades their status in the eyes of men!
Unftly they hav been misled into thinking tat imitating men in this regard means freedom/equality for them!


When was the last time america had a President who isn't WHITE/MALE/CHRISTIAN? But India, a country which is seen as oppressing women, has had 2 female PMs. Indira, and Sonia.

Rite again! Altho um.......'wud suffice to call Sonia as a pseudo PM! :D


Even though it seems that America is a land of equal oppertunities, there are many ways in which Women are oppressed still. Were they the ones to start the provess of liberation? Maybe, but they have now surely regressed.

Well, I dunno if they r, but I can say tat while women in the West seem to emphasise so much on emancipation on one hand, OTOH, they apparently don't mind abt being openly expressing their sexuality and the fact tat most of them allow themselves to get noticed all the more for their physical attributes....as opposed to relatively 'conservative' societies like ours where all this was (& still is, to sum extent!) considered taboo for women, which I pers. feel, wud've paved a wider way for them to gain their rightful dignity in society....! :D

[pavalamani pragasam]

A pertinent point has been raised by lordstanher in his pointing out the difference of greeting a woman in the east & the west. To give a French kiss on the stage has been popularised by 2 "lady"(?!) luminaries of the west. Even today in most of the families/communities even fathers or brothers don't touch a grown up girl, leave alone strangers- it is a mark of respect, a dignified behaviour. But today we see in the MEDIA girls & women getting vigorous handshakes from Tom, Dick & Harry. Co-education system has come to be because of the growing masses that need to be educated in adequate educational institutions. But that does not in any way warrant all this "rubbing together" we see mostly projected in reel life, & perhaps in some places in real life. On the screen a girl is shown to behave exactly like a sweetheart, but lectures about the supremacy of "friendship" as the best relationship. Many such ridiculous norms, culturally alien are being brought on by the MEDIA. The net result being women degraded to the status of a fleshy commodity, stripped of all her superior qualities, achievements, capabilities & honour. :cry:

I know my old granny's views will come in for a lot of flak, that is not going to prevent me from expressing them. :x

[lordstanher]

Dear PP ma'm,
Thought-provoking tho u might've found my comments, I must admit tat u hav far more guts in expressing the reality of today's society w/ respect to changes in status of women of today's gen. :thumbsup: mainly, as u rightly pointed out, due to the Media & the 'glossy cover' celebs. they interview, most of whom r attempting to poison the minds of the present-day society by convincing them repeatedly abt how women r being 'restrained' by the 'outdated', 'repressive' values/social set-up tat is 'taking them nowhere!'
Taking a cue from u, I might as well make bold to express one view tat has been waiting to erupt from within me- these celeb. women r ready to talk on & on abt 'liberating' today's Indian women from the 'decades of supressive traditional norms binding them....etc. etc.', or worse still 'becoming more expressive abt their sexuality', apparently claiming to set an example thru themselves/their own lives! And no doubt supported by the media!
However, how many of these very glitz-n-glamour ladies, I ask, ever emphasise on the real problems tat women in India hav been facing?? How many of them care to raise their voices if a girl/woman has been raped- esp. in a public place for eg.- or abt the no. of girls/women who r the daily victims of various forms of sexual harassment whether walking along a street or travelling in a bus! Not to mention the no. of those who r forced into the flesh trade on the prextent of being given jobs et al! :evil:
Are these celebs. glorified by the Media willing to show the same determination in case of abolishing these real everyday evils?? :twisted:
IMHO, if all these media-fed celeb. ladies r even half as concerned for women's rights as they claim to be & determined to be a beacon of hope for Indian women, let them, for eg. use their immense influence over the greater society and help a rape victim from the weaker 'common' society duly get justice (which is often delayed or even denied in many cases!).......surely it wudn't be a task too difficult for them....?!
This way all their determination for women's empowerment wud be far better utilised rather than in 'liberation from outdated social norms' et al.......!

[Surya]

Aravindhan, :D
I had no idea that goes on in Europe too. Though it's not that shocking.

Lord,

Rite again! Altho um.......'wud suffice to call Sonia as a pseudo PM!
I would use the term 'Proxy' :wink:


they apparently don't mind abt being openly expressing their sexuality and the fact tat most of them allow themselves to get noticed all the more for their physical attributes.

True. Actually, most women here tend to think, that they can get where they want to by using their sexuality. Which is very sickening! :evil: What makes them any different from Prostitutes?? :banghead:

REAL MEN DON'T CRY??? :? WOW! :shock: That's almost as bad as "White men can't Jump!" :lol2:

[NOV]

Please continue discussions on whether participating in public forums is a waste of time here:

http://forumhub.mayyam.com/hub/viewtopic.php?p=141786#141786

[nirosha sen]

Uhm guys???? Are we allowed to continue talking abt women's achievements, here or not???? Or is this to be another locked subject matter too???? :cry:

[Badri]

Well Niro, if you think women's achievements too is a waste of time, then we can lock this up!! :lol:

Nah, let's continue!

[NOV]

Uhm guys???? Are we allowed to continue talking abt women's achievements, here or not???? Or is this to be another locked subject matter too???? :cry:Of course Niro! This thread is primarily for that.

What I did was to separate the deviations and move them to another thread.

Please continue on the original issue of this thread....

[Surya]

Women who have achieved something in Society:

MSS: Broke the social norm of of Carnatic Geniuses being Brahmin.

Rosa Parks: Started the Montogomery Bus Boycott which lasted a year, and led to the end of segregation in Public Transport, as well as spurred the Civil Rights Movement.

Jhansi Rani: Obvious reasons.

Hilary Clinton: :lol2: The first and only hope of a female president in the US.

Gotta go. Later. 8)

[a.ratchasi]

Nirosha, a.r : I think the past has been beaten to death. What do you think of the present? I think women have come a long way in the past fifty years. I will give you one example: When I started engineering there was one woman studying engineering in the whole of Madras state ( as it was known then). Now, it is probably more than 25 percent. Engineering used to be male dominated even in US. It has changed a lot. So has medicine.
Where do you think they have made significant progress? Where do you think they need to do more?

Of course, opportunities are in abundance for women nowadays compared to the last 50 years or so in almost all fields. However, there are additional barriers, mostly psychological ones, that has to be tackled by women in order to break away from the traditional mind-set. This especially so for those from the middle income group.

One fails to realise that breaking away from the preconceived mindset does not mean the person is compromising on her principles and moral obligations.

[a.ratchasi]

I know my old granny's views will come in for a lot of flak, that is not going to prevent me from expressing them.

You have revealed the happenings of today with no pretense. No sane person would call these old granny's views.

[pavalamani pragasam]

thanx,a.r. :D

[Badri]

A pertinent point has been raised by lordstanher in his pointing out the difference of greeting a woman in the east & the west. To give a French kiss on the stage has been popularised by 2 "lady"(?!) luminaries of the west. Even today in most of the families/communities even fathers or brothers don't touch a grown up girl, leave alone strangers- it is a mark of respect, a dignified behaviour. But today we see in the MEDIA girls & women getting vigorous handshakes from Tom, Dick & Harry. Co-education system has come to be because of the growing masses that need to be educated in adequate educational institutions. But that does not in any way warrant all this "rubbing together" we see mostly projected in reel life, & perhaps in some places in real life. On the screen a girl is shown to behave exactly like a sweetheart, but lectures about the supremacy of "friendship" as the best relationship. Many such ridiculous norms, culturally alien are being brought on by the MEDIA. The net result being women degraded to the status of a fleshy commodity, stripped of all her superior qualities, achievements, capabilities & honour. :cry:

I know my old granny's views will come in for a lot of flak, that is not going to prevent me from expressing them. :x

Oh dear Mrs PP!! I shudder to think what you'd do if you happen to come to countries like Australia or USA!!

Women are not being degraded to the status of fleshy commodities by anyone else...they are doing it themselves, and that too, willingly. Just come and see what attires they wear, what things they do even in public in these "first-world" countries! You'd know the reality!!

What's more, they even have exclusive boutique stores where they can buy their costumes (or the lack of it, actually) for a fortune!!

You'd find men here clothed decently...very few women can claim to the same sense of decency. Nobody asked them to dress skimpily, but it is the height of fasion for these women to do so!

[a.ratchasi]

Badri, it is common to see girls as young as 12 frolicking in tube tops! Sometimes, I dont know who deserves that knock on the head; the girl or her parents? :huh:

[Badri]

Badri, it is common to see girls as young as 12 frolicking in tube tops! Sometimes, I dont know who deserves that knock on the head; the girl or her parents? :huh:

Exactly, a.r...but wait, didn;t you see her mother walking right behind her wearing this precariously low, diphanous top?

[pavalamani pragasam]

Exactly, badri! I get glimpses from where I am, and hear 1st hand information, read recent western novels which portray the life of women, their lifestyle, their daily life pattern, their goals, immediate & distant.

The distances having come to nothing due to communication technology our girls & women have developed an inordinate desire to ape their western counterparts :cry:

It is pure commercial marketting for cosmetic merchandise for which our "fair sex" haven fallen a pathetic prey. What sort of ego boost do they hope to achieve by shaving like men, baring like men, daring like men-doing all that were exclusively masculine activities?

The western woman is an enigma to me; she is a stranger to me, comes nowhere near my perspective of a meaningful life. I wish to keep my distance from her. And I am strongly averse to see the MEDIA for attracting our female population towards thw western counterparts.

[Badri]

And I am strongly averse to see the MEDIA for attracting our female population towards thw western counterparts.

Yemaali ulla varai, yematturkaaranum iruppaan appadinnu solluvanga. To translate, cheats will survive as long as the victims are available. If the women in question did not find what is portrayed by the media as vulgar, then media would have changed track and gone on to find something more appealing. It is not as though media has taken on a crusade to bring the Western culture to India. I still believe it is the fault of the women to be so ready to ape the western culture, esp these negative aspects of it, in the name of freedom.

Sometimes, I wonder, perhaps it is for this that our forebears did not give women too much freedom. Now with women given all the freedom they want, they want to do everything men do - shave, bare, dare etc.

Well, at least this time, let the men not be blamed.

[nirosha sen]

Sometimes, I wonder, perhaps it is for this that our forebears did not give women too much freedom. Now with women given all the freedom they want, they want to do everything men do - shave, bare, dare etc.

Shave, ah????? :shock: What are you referring to people??? What is it they are shaving that's so repugnant????? Please enlighten, Pa!!!!! :roll:

[pavalamani pragasam]

Propriety prohibits more explicit postings, pa! :shock:

[stranger]

The western woman is an enigma to me; she is a stranger to me, comes nowhere near my perspective of a meaningful life. I wish to keep my distance from her.

Mother Terasa was a western woman too?! :roll:

[pavalamani pragasam]

Every rule has an exception. 8) In such general discussions exceptions are not taken into consideration :x

[stranger]

Every rule has an exception. 8) In such general discussions exceptions are not taken into consideration :x

You know, may be u r an exception too for an Indian woman in the Hub , PP! :lol:

It will be sad if people ignore the "exceptions" like you in a general discussion! :)

Just kidding! :)

[pavalamani pragasam]

Giving it the benefit of doubt, I take it as a compliment & thanx for the same, stranger 8)

[r_kk]

[tscii:8e0f2e9e8a]

Even today in most of the families/communities even fathers or brothers don't touch a grown up girl, leave alone strangers- it is a mark of respect, a dignified behaviour. But today we see in the MEDIA girls & women getting vigorous handshakes from Tom, Dick & Harry.
The net result being women degraded to the status of a fleshy commodity, stripped of all her superior qualities, achievements, capabilities & honour.



The western woman is an enigma to me; she is a stranger to me, comes nowhere near my perspective of a meaningful life. I wish to keep my distance from her.

(bold highlights are done by me)
Dear PP Madam,
This time my writings may going to contradict with few of your view points (even though I accept majority of your view points about women hood in our cultural perspective). I feel that sometimes we are looking the western societies and their women from our own view points and making comments. Kissing in a public place or having boy friends at younger age, even wearing flimsy dresses etc, all from our view point which firmly believes our values as superior.

If we look at the any matrimonial column of any newspaper, we can see how caste, religion and financial status of one plays more important role in choosing a lifelong mates than real affection or love. Many women get married through such advertisements, have their physical relations and produce babies without even understanding each other. Could you able to accept such social system as the more right one?

Most of the religious books and eastern social system directly or indirectly expects chastity only from women. Polygamy is somewhat acceptable. Most of our Indian Gods have multiple wives but thinking about a men who is look-alike of her husband (without even knowing the fact that he is not her husband) by a women is a worst sin. Virginity, chastity, pure widowhood etc are only expected from women. Even in our movies, which indirectly stress these thoughts are highly successful.

• rape victim marrying the rapist and changing him as good man (Pudhiya Paathai)
• a widower marrying a widow, but only the widow lost her husband on the marriage day itself (means that still she is virgin) (Ritham)
• not able to leave a person who put just 3 knots and go behind her lover (even though both love each other whole heartedly) (Antha 7 naatgal) just because of holiness of marriage ritual.

Whatever I say against our own system, any one can easily put down my views by simply saying that our system/family arrangement is one of the best since the kids future and psychological needs are well taken care. Yah… I have certainly no clear answers to such points till now.

Let me explain a different system where women are highly liberated in my view point. It is not about western societies, but about a tribe in Yunnan province of China called “Mosuo”. I first came across such society through 1 hr documentary in Discovery channel. It had shocked me and gave lot of answers to an alternative system, where women are fully valued and respected at the same time future of kids are well taken care of. It may shock conservative people. But we have to look from their point of view. Not from our own view. I can certainly say this system as much better one than ours even though some so-called men rights are missing.

• Women are the family head. Ancestral Property rights are with women.
• Women never marry to any one but they have relationship as per their own wish (at woman’s discretion, after all she is going to bear, deliver and bring-up the kids). The concept of perversion or considering sex as holy or sin is not present. Just love between woman and man hold the relationship, not legal laws. It is not about the fantacy of free love.
• Men do not have any rights on kids, even he can’t claim any one as his own kid
• Brothers live with their Sister. The sisterly/brotherly relationship is considered as pure and highly respected. They can’t/wouldn’t watch even any slightly vulgar tv program together. Uncle takes care of kids (sister’s kids, not his own). Men responsibilities are first and foremost to the children of his mother or sister's family.
• Their social system doesn’t have the concepts like rape, murder, war or jails.
• The society is happy, peaceful and generous.
• Even though their official religion is Buddhism, their real religion is the basic one. i.e., Nature (so no religious hatred or caste or useless superimposed value of superior/inferior women hood definitions)
http://www.21cep.com/travel/su/girl.htm

It is a very big subject. I will try to write slowly on various aspects of ours, western and so-called ideal ones (my view point only) from my perspective. As long as there is some one to read to my views, I will try to write. I don’t care, whether my views change some one else’s view or not or how many people reads this etc. My aim of the writing here (at the mid night, keeping aside my sleep) is just to provide an alternative perspective to a pre-fixed/rigid thoughts/super imposed thoughts about superior or inferior qualities…

[/tscii:8e0f2e9e8a]

[pavalamani pragasam]

Thanx for the feedback, r_kk! Marrying with community preferences is not at all objectionable; if it turned out to be a loveless marriage it is the fault of the couple who had failed to understand the meaning of marraige & its duties and the social systemis not responsible. The younger generation has allowed its heads to be filled with a lot of newfangled ideas & rebellious prejudices. The new, overt lifestyle has upset a lot of accepted, healthy norms of life. This is a matter for concern needing careful study & analysis.

The Chinese community you have described, a matriarchal one, not entirely new to us, sounds Utopian. But somehow indescribably, vaguely missing something.

[rajasaranam]

r_kk,

:clap: :clap: :clap:

Nice post. Have you read ' The origin of Family, Wealth and State' by Fredrick Engels? It has got some glimpses about the Early communist societies where in the form of society you gave as example flourished.

PP Madam,

It is not an Utopia. This form of society had its existence in this very planet Earth and have got changed . And there is always a possibility of it coming back. Matriarchal society is still in existence in some remote parts of India too. 'Kerala' is one predominantly matriarchal society.

[pavalamani pragasam]

[tscii:75e23d887f]Let me quote this from Sathguru Jakki Vasudev’s column, “aththanaikkum aasaippadu” in last week’s Ananda Vikadan:

“¦Àñ ;ó¾¢Ãõ ÀüÈ¢..?”

“;ó¾¢Ãõ ±ýÀÐ §À¡Ã¡Êô ¦ÀÈ §ÅñÊ ´ýÈøÄ. ¯ûÙ½÷×¼ý «¨¾ì ¸ÅÉ¢òÐì «ÛÀÅ¢ì¸ì ¸üÚ즸¡ñ¼¡ø §À¡Ðõ

¿¨¸, ¯¨¼, «Äí¸¡Ãõ, ź¾¢¸û ±ýÚ «üÀÁ¡É Å¢„Âí¸Ç¢ø ͸õ ¸¡ñÀ¨¾ ¿¢Úò¾¢Å¢ðÎ, §Áý¨ÁÂ¡É Å¢„Âí¸ÙìÌô ¦Àñ ¬¨ºôÀ¼ §ÅñÎõ.

¬ñ ºã¸õ Å¢¨Ç¡Îõ Å¢¨Ç¡ðÎìÌô À¸¨¼ì¸¡Â¡¸ ¯Õð¼ôÀ¼ ¦Àñ ²ý ºõÁ¾¢ì¸ §ÅñÎõ? ¬ñ¸Ù¨¼Â ¾ó¾¢Ãí¸ÙìÌô ÀĢ¡¸¢Å¢¼¡Áø, ¸ÅÉòмý ¦ºÂøÀ¼ §Åñ¼¡Á¡?

¦Àñ¸û ¯¼ø 㾢¡¸ô ÀÄÅ£ÉÁ¡ÉÅ÷¸û ±ýÀÐ ÀÄ ¸¡Ã½í¸Ù측¸ þÂü¨¸ ÅÌò¾ ÅÆ¢. «¨¾ ±¾ü¸¡¸ Á¡üÈ ÓÂüº¢ ¦ºö §ÅñÎõ?

«Å¨Çô §À¡Ä ¦ºÂøÀÎõ ºì¾¢ «üÈÅÉ¡¸ ¬ñ À¢ý ¾í¸¢Â¢Õ츢ȡý ±ýÀ§¾ ¯ñ¨Á. «Å¨Éô §À¡ø ¿¼óЦ¸¡ûÇô ¦ÀñÏõ ²ý À¢ýÉ¡ø «Ê¦ÂÎòÐ ¨Åì¸ §ÅñÎõ?

¬ñ¸û ÓýÁ¡¾¢Ã¢Â¡¸ ¨ÅòÐ À¢ýÀüھġ ;ó¾¢Ãõ? «í§¸ ӾĢø þÆôÀÐ ¦Àñ¨Á¢ý ¦Áý¨Á¨Â. ´Õ ¦Àñ ÓبÁÂ¡É ¦Àñ½¡¸ þÕôÀ¾øÄÅ¡ ¯ñ¨ÁÂ¡É Í¾ó¾¢Ãõ?

¦Àñ¸û þø¨Ä¦ÂýÈ¡ø þó¾ ¯Ä¸§Á þø¨Ä. ¾í¸¨Ç ¯¼Ö¼ý ÁðÎõ «¨¼Â¡ÇôÀÎò¾¢ì¦¸¡ûŨ¾ ¿¢Úò¾¢Å¢ðÎ, ¾í¸Ù¨¼Â ¯ñ¨ÁÂ¡É ºì¾¢ ±ýÉ ±ýÚ «Å÷¸û ¯½Ã §ÅñÎõ!”
[/tscii:75e23d887f]

[nirosha sen]

Since most of the postings are from India, I would like to know the present scene of women's achievements.

How far has the present Indian woman advanced as opposed to say 30 years ago???? Come to think of it, I believe it should be stated as just changes, as advanced is rather subjective.

Please enlighten us, folks!

[hehehewalrus]

NS
Is this a serious question over a matter of life and death? Or just a curiosity itch?
Curiosity kills the cat holds true - but the cat turns out to be the responder in your case :P

[nirosha sen]

:lol: Guess I'm trying to focus on the positive instead of a whole of lot of bashing alone, Pa!! Surely, life has more to offer to positive thinking than merely the usual suspects!!

[suressh]

:)

yeah... in most of the equal right for women cases, their perception is that men enjoy more rights and they should also be entitled to have the same rights that men enjoy...

but, i really doubt whether men really enjoy more rights than women. if yes, in what way? this is a honest question and really curious about the answer since i personally had never enjoyed any concessions. :)

regarding media spoiling women - as mentioned by pp, as usual :wink: - this time i fully agree with you madam... :) .. but i should add that only women are spoiled by media.

:)

[pavalamani pragasam]

[tscii:0122146bdd]From the international news section of today’s “Times of India”:

Sexual revolution sees rise in women’s lust.

As the gender divide blurs, there is a sharp rise in figures which show more and more women are now catching up with their male counterparts in sexcapades.

“Women today lust after sex in the same way as men, having lost the modesty and chastity which charaterised previous generations…

‘The past half century has seen distinct changes in our sexual behaviour and these have been considerably more marked among women than men.’

Even over the past decade, women have become more tolerant of casual sex anow a woman is nearly as likely to approve of a one-night stand as a man….”

What is saddening in this international scenario is that the hitherto conservative communities of the world, esp. those in India are put in a predicament: their youth are dangerously tempted to join the bandwagon. The crime is aided and abetted by the MEDIA- Hollywood, Bollywood, Kollywood & the TV channels, local & global by introducing immoral themes, obscene picturisation & supporting/advocating ethically dubious norms & lifestyles.
[/tscii:0122146bdd]

[lordstanher]

Hello PP ma'm, glad to see yet another wise/thot-provoking post from u here! :D
And yes of course, glad to be back on this forum after my brief visit out-of-town...... 8)
I must say, ma'm, tat u obviously had a lot of guts to post this article abt the particular change in women's attitudes here, which wud've normally seemed controversial! :thumbsup:
I've thot abt mentioning the same thing here sumtimes but was hesitant to bring it out into the open like this! lest sumone got provoked to accuse me of making 'unfair generalisations' or even being in the VHP/RSS/wat not league! :D
And yes I also agree tat such -ve qualities wud've existed among girls/women even in the past, but I'm very much sure tat 30-40 yrs ago it wudn't hav existed to the degree to which it does today!
And I agree w/ PP ma'm tat one of the reasons for this is the behaviour/outlook of the media of then vs. now......
I'm aware abt this 'sexual revolution' in the fair sex published even in mags. like India Today/Outlook a couple of years ago......as u rightly point out, the media today does a very effective job of adding fuel to the fire by actually conducting a lame 'research' on this issue (Ind. Today for eg. had published an article w/ loads of surveys taken from various women in th country abt their sexual 'assertiveness' etc. :evil: ) and describing these preverted pastimes as sum sort of great achievement among women!
Today's media is undoubtedly a disgrace to the name of Indian women! I'm certain tat ne outsider who got to know abt India only by watching the current Indian movies wud definitely not believe tat Indian women follow sumthing called 'modesty' or 'chastity' in their lives! :evil:
I never imagined tat we wud, one fine day, end up as an overly 2-face society, claiming on one hand to be 'culturally rich' & 'tradition-bound' nation and on the other hand, exulting in pursuing/encouraging such unwanted indulgences (and worse still, denying it when being pointed out, which makes us all the more 2-faced! :evil: )

[pavalamani pragasam]

Thanx, lordstanher. :)

Even now I am doubtful about our being hypocritical about our pride in ancient culture & its golden values.

Majority of the population, I honestly believe, are still right-minded, respectful, "civilised" and morally sane & healthy. I see life around me going on unobtrusively, on reasonable standards in spite of changes in lifestyle.

But only the MEDIA makes out as if whole Indian population is completely westernised culturally.

Yet there is no denying that schools and colleges are witnessing the slow serpentine influence of western cultural behaviour creeping in insidiously. MEDIA is committing the sin of emboldening our youth to cross the borders of decency, modesty, chastity & sanity.

[hehehewalrus]

PP, your last 2 posts are contradictory.

Your message 1 is blurred and lacks punch. Whats the conclusion?
Your message 2 squarely lays the blame on the media.

I see 2 basic issues here: Sexuality and media sensationalism

Issue 1: As trends and lifestyles change, so do values. The trappings of power, affluence, wealth lures everyone. It's not as if men have been immune to their pulls. So why blame women alone? Double standards. Accuse, but do it equally.

My take is that today's yuppie woman is smarter and knows where to draw the line. Much much smarter than we think. And BTW, the traps for women to be exploited are much much more. For instance, cases have come out of voyeuristic houseowners fixing secret spycams in the apartments of their lady tenants. These are real real issues in today's world. And it's far tougher for women now than it used to be(as far as scope for exploitation goes). and I think today's women are doing a darn good job in coping up with the pressures.

It's a common middle-class disease to blindly hit out at issues without understanding their complexity or knowing how hard it is to arrive at solutions. For instance, when the recent ban on bargirls came out in bombay, thousands of them took to the streets protesting since they needed their jobs to finance their siblings' education. The only natural recourse for them was prostitution or suicide. Cold reality for you. DOnt expect things to change overnight.

Empathise, dont criticise.

Issue 2: There IS SOME truth(in fact more than SOME) in what Outlook and India Today say. These magazines are smart enough to understand the sceptism of their readers. Much of their data are collected from sexologists, medical counsellors and reliable sources. So their methodologies are NOT ENTIRELY WRONG. As a statistics freak(I am currently trying to devise a sound methodology for the "Who is the best thread?" thread and some other stats oriented stuff like Amazon book review feedback), let me tell you this - not all surveys are wrong or contain fallacies - the weak area of statistically based studies such as opinion polls are in the incompleteness of the audience, not because of a flaw in the methodology.

Enough digress...besides why do you attack the media all out? The media has done enough good, it is only through them that parents are aware of the trouble their kids get into - my friend's dad regularly scans the History folder of his computer and thank the media for that!

Dont blame the media when parents have done an inadequate job

[pavalamani pragasam]

hehehewalrus, first let me thank you for the frankness of your approach.

Now coming to the matters raised by you, first of all where have I contradicted myself? The first posting was a quote, just selective information. Second is my true opinion about the grudge I have against MEDIA- printed, electronic, audio, video, everything, one and all forms of it.

They are run for COMMERCIAL GAINS without even a pretence of ACCOUNTABILITY. Of course it is also business, and as such profit matters- but by fair means and not through sleaze. When you go to a grocer dont you expect unadulterated merchandise for the paise you pay? You are health-conscious, you know adulteration is criminal.

Now, in my opinion most of these opinion polls are blahblah. I attach no importance to them They are biased to enhance circulation-purely that. There is no honest reporting in today's MEDIA. That much for information.

Then comes the presentation. My sense of decency is violated, insulted grossly by the glaring pictures in the printed MEDIA. The visual MEDIA- cinema & television carry the insult to still higher levels. The dress code, the double talk obscenities are simply odious, not realistic, in the sense, that is not what common man's life is like & must be.

What is happening actually? The cheap, base instincts of man are whipped up, stimulated for cheap, instant thrills & titillations. Is this the definition of entertainment in our level of civilisation? Can we take pride in sinking to bestial level of carnal pleasures? All this includes social awareness, social accountability.

At this juncture of making leaps & bounds in the fields of economics & technology under the wonderful captaincy of the likes of Abdul Kalam & a host of technocrats & enterpreuners can we afford to lose our potential energy, youth in the pursuit of utterly wasteful pastimes & practices?

In our path to achievement of noble ambitions the invasion of western, slack immoral practices is going to be a danger of highest order. MEDIA is behaving with callous indifference & villainous intentions. I SHALL CONTINUE MY SUSTAINED CAMPAIGN AGAINST MEDIA.

Last but not least,"the hand that rocks the cradle rules the world". That is an explicit saying for the supreme importance of woman's integrity to be saved, maintained, cherished at all costs.

[hehehewalrus]

PP,
you are entitled to your blanket diatribes against the "media". But learn to sift the chaff from the wheat instead of sounding clichetic ;)
It might help you conserve energy though.

[pavalamani pragasam]

hehehewalrus, thanx once again. :) Your concern for me is duly appreciated. :D

[Thiru]

pls refrain from personal attacks..

[lordstanher]

As trends and lifestyles change, so do values. The trappings of power, affluence, wealth lures everyone. It's not as if men have been immune to their pulls. So why blame women alone? Double standards. Accuse, but do it equally.

Walrus,
There isn't an iota of doubt tat men hav seldom been ne wiser when it came to going morally astray.......however, I'm sure u'll also agree tat this is nothing new among men! :D I mean its not as if they r undergoing ne sort of recent major change/twist in their lifestyles/behaviour......unless I'm mistaken majority of men hav been this way for ages....! :wink:
However, as PP ma'm is trying to emphasise, women (overall/in general) were not known to be this way until the recent change of trends, social values.....ie, most if not all of them- atleast the avg. middle classes- were known to far exceed men in terms of being strong-minded and oriented towards human relationships/family values and so on, and relatively less allured by such secondary/materialistic aspirations.......
And even otherwise, I didn't see y men had to be brought into discussion here as the title of this thread quite plainly states "role of women in society........" so ne discussion on ways of men was apparently not kept in mind while starting the thread in qsn....? :?


My take is that today's yuppie woman is smarter and knows where to draw the line.

Hmmm.....can u be quite sure abt ur opinion? :? My doubt is, if they indeed know where to draw the line, how come there r cases like tat of the Delhi schoolgirl, college girls in metro cities working as call girls just for sum pocket money to blow up, not to mention girls working in call centres & even housewives (most of whom r older, married women who ought to know better than the 'errant' youngsters) indulging in internet pornography & letting themselves be advertised as s***s on worldwide porn sites, far betraying the modesty/values tat they r known to hold on to......?


And BTW, the traps for women to be exploited are much much more........And it's far tougher for women now than it used to be(as far as scope for exploitation goes).

True. Misuse of technology, not to mention laxity/transperancy of laws in our country has no doubt made it all the more easier for men to exploit women.......however, if the line of distinction between rite & wrong tends to blur -even to a mild degree- among girls/women, they wud be all the more liable to fall prey to such perverted wolves!


There IS SOME truth(in fact more than SOME) in what Outlook and India Today say. These magazines are smart enough to understand the sceptism of their readers. Much of their data are collected from sexologists, medical counsellors and reliable sources. So their methodologies are NOT ENTIRELY WRONG.

OK agreed tat most of their stuff happens to be true.....but my qsn. is wat exactly do they intend to point out or achieve by publishing all this 'researched' info. on women going in the wrong direction?? Wat do they think they r trying to prove w/ all this, whether its true or not....? :huh:
Y publish pages of surveys/stats abt 'n' women who indulged in one-nite stands/wife-swapping/casual sex etc. if on the other hand, ppl. think tat wat they do doesn't really impact the entire/overall society/culture on a permanent basis?!!


Dont blame the media when parents have done an inadequate job

And how strict can parents alone get?? Even if they do, it wudn't serve to be very effective today! :D
I thot u were well-aware tat as the kids grow up, 'P' no longer stands for Parents but Peers! :D
Its wat the peers do/hav is considered the 'in' thing, the 'must' thing.....! And most of these 'peers' do get influenced to a certain extent by the -ve side of the present-day media, whether we believe it or not. And today, the media influence is far more pronounced in youth than it was b4 (for eg. cable TV channels viz. MTV etc. were affordable only by the higher middle-class onwards 10-12 yrs ago, the middle classes etc. were known to hav only TV at home! :D )

[lordstanher]

My sense of decency is violated, insulted grossly by the glaring pictures in the printed MEDIA. The visual MEDIA- cinema & television carry the insult to still higher levels. The dress code, the double talk obscenities are simply odious, not realistic, in the sense, that is not what common man's life is like & must be.

Exactly! :D
Another point tat I'd wanted to emphasise on. For instance, I've noticed tat the Saree, for ages, was considered to be the most decent attire tat a woman cud be clothed in (in fact when my mum was in Madras Med. College in the '60s, Sarees were the 'proper' dress code for all girls (barring Muslim/Punj. ones) at the time......even a pant/shirt was considered provocative!), but is today sadly being deemed as one of the 'sexiest' attires alive! :evil: And I can be 99% sure tat the media (visual as well as printed), aided by most of the celebrities is very much the culprit for this change of perception in ppl's minds! :twisted:
If ne-one isn't convinced w/ this argument, go look at most of the local mags & movies (esp. S.Indian) dating from the last decade & u find them depicting most of the popular actresses doing provocative dances/songs clad mostly in Sarees! In fact in most of the avg. post '90 Telugu movies, pulling/slipping of the Saree 'pallu' is considered a comedy scene! :evil:


What is happening actually? The cheap, base instincts of man are whipped up, stimulated for cheap, instant thrills & titillations.

Tats rite. Even most women who r clad in Sarees today cannot escape being perceived by lecherous men as 'sexy'! :x :banghead:


Last but not least,"the hand that rocks the cradle rules the world". That is an explicit saying for the supreme importance of woman's integrity to be saved, maintained, cherished at all costs.

On a satirical note, women's integrity is sadly languishing in most parts of the world (not just India) as they r being perceived more to rock the bed rather than the cradle! :x

[Rohit]

Interesting topic indeed; and highly interesting and informative postings from AR, PP, R_KK, NS, HHW, LS and others. :clap:

With all due respect to the views of others, I would like to add a broader view on the ongoing debate among PP, HHW and LS with sincere intent to bring a wider perspective on the issue.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The mood of society is faithfully reflected by the mood of its average-age population. The younger the average age of society, the more prone it is to temptations, allurement and to the inducing effects of enticing environment.

Let us see the distribution of Indian population in terms of age groups:

Over 28% of Indian population are in the age group of 0-11 years
Over 14% of Indian population are in the age group of 12-18 years
Around 12% of Indian population are in the age group of 19-24 years

Which means, a staggering 54% of Indian population is under the age of 25 years.

Over 43% of Indian population are in the age group of 25-50 years, which more likely reflects the age group of Indian parents and represents around 230 million Indian households

And

Just 3% of Indian population are over the age of 50 years

This statistics gives an average age of Indian population around 23 years. And that age is young, indeed too young to have enough self-control or self-restraint from the bombarding global commercials of western lifestyles, movies and other glittering media broadcasts.

Now, most puzzled minds would seek some answers to the questions like:

1. Are media to be blamed for the declining trend in exterior and interior decency and culture of the Indian society?

2. Are media, broadcasting and bombarding commercials and news, showing allured Indian younger generations in a rapidly changing global environment, misleading and hypocritical?

3. Is an average Indian population too young and/or too prone to make sensible and rational choices?

In my opinion, No.3 is more appropriate question that gets reasonably answered by the changing mood of the Indian society as reflected in the changing mood of its massive younger generation.

However, one cannot give a categorical NO answer to the question No.1 and a categorical YES answer to the question No.2. Media has ever-stronger role to play both in product marketing and their promotions as well as in news reporting, which play major roles in shaping and portraying an overall outlook of the society. In both fields, media use dramatisations, some times to an extent of over dramatisation, which many promiscuous minds would fail to discern and end up misleading themselves or in over spoiling their lifestyles.

Nonetheless, the rapid changes in Indian cultural and social values are real and they are happening simply because people have that environment, time, money, temptations, desires and whatever they need to make such choices, rational or irrational, but they are collective choices. The simple law of demand and supply holds here too, which is neutral or indifferent to the discerning sentiments of older generations, who feel almost lost among their own, engulfed by the alien culture and lifestyles. To them, men or women make no difference to their distressing feelings. The ever-expanding generation gaps; accelerated by the adoption of alien lifestyles, get even wider, day by day; and unfortunately there is nothing whatsoever one can do to hold it back.

This is the price, a society must be prepared to pay in order to promote the notion of freedom of choice and equality. :)

[pavalamani pragasam]

Too cynical? :?

[hehehewalrus]

Walrus,
There isn't an iota of doubt tat men hav seldom been ne wiser when it came to going morally astray.......However, as PP ma'm is trying to emphasise, women (overall/in general) were not known to be this way until the recent change of trends, social values.....

Stan, my basic point is why have the double standards and put women under the microscopic every time? 50 years back their father's wealth was put under the microscope, 30 years back their need for education was put under the microscope, and now their choice of spending their income, their time or their behaviour in the workplace is put under the microscope! Why women every time? Is such a rigorous examination fair, since there are bound to be aberrations in every case?

I am asking this because atleast 3 times I have been approached in my career by some newly married guy with the question "What is your skillset? That great, can you recommend some project in Java, .Net that I can put as fake experience on my wife's resume? She is a BE but hasnt worked since her graduation...." Ridiculous! Do people with such mentality realise what kind of pressure will be on their wives if they were to successfully put in fake experience and land a job in a top company?



Hmmm.....can u be quite sure abt ur opinion? :? My doubt is, if they indeed know where to draw the line, how come there r cases like tat of the Delhi schoolgirl, college girls in metro cities working as call girls just for sum pocket money to blow up, not to mention girls working in call centres & even housewives (most of whom r older, married women who ought to know better than the 'errant' youngsters) indulging in internet pornography & letting themselves be advertised as s***s on worldwide porn sites, far betraying the modesty/values tat they r known to hold on to......?

Oh come on now, this is sheer overreacting to a microscopic minority!!! surely you dont believe in the last couple of examples you quoted do you???? :lol: :lol: women and internet crimes are really funny :lol2:



True. Misuse of technology, not to mention laxity/transperancy of laws in our country has no doubt made it all the more easier for men to exploit women.......however, if the line of distinction between rite & wrong tends to blur -even to a mild degree- among girls/women, they wud be all the more liable to fall prey to such perverted wolves!

To some extent I agree but not entirely. There was this study by some sociologists about provocative dressing and sexual assaults/crime on women. Alright, forget the results of the study, take the real world. There are a good number of such incidents which took place 1) in broad daylight, 2) victims werent provocatively dressed.
So?




OK agreed tat most of their stuff happens to be true.....but my qsn. is wat exactly do they intend to point out or achieve by publishing all this 'researched' info. on women going in the wrong direction?? Wat do they think they r trying to prove w/ all this, whether its true or not....? :huh:
Y publish pages of surveys/stats abt 'n' women who indulged in one-nite stands/wife-swapping/casual sex etc. if on the other hand, ppl. think tat wat they do doesn't really impact the entire/overall society/culture on a permanent basis?!!


Yes I still believe there's some good in it - considering that in the mid 2000s city populations have been burgeoning - almost every city small or big is experiencing a growing floating population, there is really no harm in being informed about changing lifestyles or trends. NOTE THAT I USED THE WORD "Informed", not "Entertained" :)



And how strict can parents alone get?? Even if they do, it wudn't serve to be very effective today! :D I thot u were well-aware tat as the kids grow up, 'P' no longer stands for Parents but Peers! :D

Precisely! IMHO, I really dont believe the fact that only youngsters go on the wrong track and not parents - Guess what, everyone suffers from the "get-it-quick" syndrome - People who work in some govt job, collect bribes, show favoritism and lack integrity, they might be parents too and who knows, they might be having all these screwed up values coz they have peer pressure from the other corrupt types in their office!
So basically, if someone cant handle peer pressure and fails to beat his own path, he's one big loser! One shouldnt get lured and later crib about the environment, it's all part of the game you're supposed to win :)

Aside: About your reference to my replies to PP, I still dont get PP's post. PP was very vague in her post - summa 'media', 'media' mottaya sonna eppadi? :? Does it mean the news media(news channels, newspapers, magazines) or the entertainment media(cinema, tv serials, music)? It is a gross mistake to club the two together and try to work things out from there. Then of course, there are different thoughts/ideas/aspirations of people in the media business. One cannot make a sweeping statement and expect a solution for it - the problem has to be clearly defined. For instance, my favorite news agent(The Hindu group) has some journalists/columnists whom I consider really inferior and trash and there may be some sucky hypemasters(Indian Exp, Decc Herald) who have one, two good journos whose ideas I enjoy.

So PP's original problem statement was a tangled ball of thread from which it is difficult to identify where exactly to start from. It was too general and more like the essays I used to write in Plus Two English Paper( Title is Role of Media? No problem, throw in lot of big sounding words like hype, paparazzi, voyeurism, construct 20 lines of doomsday sentences with them and hope the examiner is impressed and gives 8/10 :) )

About opinion polls, most of them is done with collaboration of rating agencies like CRISIL, ORG-MARG, AC Nielsen(before you pooh pooh them, bear in mind these companies go to the IIMs regularly for campus recruitment) - now these companies are generally bang on target when it comes to polls on customer prefences relating to consumption of consumer goods...the purpose of an opinion poll is NOT TO PREDICT CORRECTLY WHICH PARTY IS GONNA WIN(how the hell can one do that without visiting all the 545 pattis and thottis which are part of the electorate?) BUT TO GIVE AN INDEX OF THE POLITICAL PREFERENCE OF THE CITIZENS AND THEIR CURRENT SATISFACTION WITH THE RULING PARTY - considering that most of the people who graduate with an MSc in Maths or Statistics(by mugging 20 formulae per test and an aggregate of 80%), sit at home or write C code for a software company without knowing how to design a methodology for interpreting data, I think journos who are into such polls are doing a pretty decent job :)

Note: Good and bad is there in every thing but rememeber, the difference between the amateur and the professional is that the talented amateur turns his nose at a dirty pond while the professional knows how to swim in a pond of scum and algae and reach the other shore with fish in his pocket :P

[pavalamani pragasam]

Sorry,hehehewalrus, if you find find my objections to MEDIA vague & generalised. You may find a detailed outburst about the wronging MEDIA in my blogsite blogs.sify.com/ppavalamani in the 'kalaedoscope' section.

When I read a newspaper or magazine I dont sift the news articles & entertainment section- the whole counts for me AND the advertisements. Refinement is lacking in all these sections. It cries out BUSINESS, COMPETITION.

I have been for long under the doubt if "Kumudam" & "Ananda Vikadan" have secretly merged to beat the circulation of "Kungumam" flourishing solely on the merit of its freebies. Same clan of writers, same model of articles, same cine tidbits, same masala- almost totally identical!

"Alright, forget the results of the study, take the real world. There are a good number of such incidents which took place 1) in broad daylight, 2) victims werent provocatively dressed.
So?" My reply to this is in the following link where I have quoted an article from your favourite 'Express' & my opinion.

http://www.forumhub.mayyam.com/hub/viewtopic.php?t=2248&start=105

lifestyles are changing, they have been for ages. But basic norms, decorum need not change. History shows what licence & epicureanism will lead to. Are we going to be wise or watch with folded hands history repeat itself? Cynics feel there is no stopping the avalanche of debauchery in this global era. But renowned ancient cultures cant afford to see their own death which is in no way INEVITABLE.

[lordstanher]

Stan, my basic point is why have the double standards and put women under the microscopic every time? 50 years back their father's wealth was put under the microscope, 30 years back their need for education was put under the microscope

Tat I agree was wrong.....I never disagreed w/ the need for women to receive property/education, which they have equal rights to.
Incidentally, I rem. tat in AP many yrs ago, one of the former CMs N.T. Rama Rao, made it mandatory for sons & daughters to be entitiled to receive equal share of their fatherz property......


Oh come on now, this is sheer overreacting to a microscopic minority!!! surely you dont believe in the last couple of examples you quoted do you???? :lol: :lol: women and internet crimes are really funny :lol2:

Um....wat exactly do u mean?? :?
Don't tell me u don't know tat there r girls/women in various parts of India indulging in internet pornography?? :shock:
I thot u were well-informed abt these current happenings here?? :wink:
Neways, since u actually seem to trust the facts presented by print media viz. India Today/Outlook etc., might I suggest u read the Sept.(can't rem. exact date) '04 issue of India Today tat has w/ full coverage on this issue? U can find out from the title on the cover itself "Desi porn boom"......there was yet another article abt internet porn more recently, this time w/ respect to call centre employees......
Still, its upto u to believe it or not...... :D


There was this study by some sociologists about provocative dressing and sexual assaults/crime on women. Alright, forget the results of the study, take the real world. There are a good number of such incidents which took place 1) in broad daylight, 2) victims werent provocatively dressed. So?

I did express a similar view in this other thread......see:

http://www.forumhub.mayyam.com/hub/viewtopic.php?t=2248&start=105


considering that in the mid 2000s city populations have been burgeoning - almost every city small or big is experiencing a growing floating population, there is really no harm in being informed about changing lifestyles or trends. NOTE THAT I USED THE WORD "Informed", not "Entertained" :)

Understood. But still...as I said, if majority of the society doesn't care to react to this or think there isn't nething tat can be done to improve this kind of situation, y publish it as such a 'hot' news (Ind. today IMO, made it sound more like entertaining rather than informing!).....?? :roll:
Oh well, this is my view......!

[lordstanher]

lifestyles are changing, they have been for ages. But basic norms, decorum need not change.

Exactly! :wink:


History shows what licence & epicureanism will lead to. Are we going to be wise or watch with folded hands history repeat itself?

Incidentally, there was a time in our country (donno exactly when but obv. during the 'kamasutra' age) when promiscuity wasn't considered taboo even among girls/women......I do recall a fellow hubber mentioning in the thread "living in the past" abt a time when a married woman cud go spend the night w/ another man & return the next day to her husband......no objections from him or the society! :shock:
At a later stage onwards all this was thankfully considered immoral & wud've come under adultry (yes, even in case of men!)........however, I daresay tat the increasingly nonchalant attitude of our present-day society towards similar acts like wife-swapping/sharing (on the grounds tat they r but minor incidents!) might indeed eventually lead to wat PP ma'm says abt history 'repeating itself'.......? :(
By our feigned ignorance, we wud indeed be "throwing mud onto our own heads" as a tamil saying goes.......!

[hehehewalrus]

When I read a newspaper or magazine I dont sift the news articles & entertainment section- the whole counts for me AND the advertisements. Refinement is lacking in all these sections. It cries out BUSINESS, COMPETITION.
Then subscribe to Hindu and throw out everything else :lol2:

PP, as for me, any media that gives me info that is instructive or cautioning or teaches me to be alert is fine. I am a rapacious Shylock who only cares about my benefit whether the source is good or bad! (I know where to draw the line and I can spot which is sensationalism and which is not, have been getting Hindu in my home since 1973. I have written lots about the origin and growth of media in the Print Media in India thread which was active few months back)



I have been for long under the doubt if "Kumudam" & "Ananda Vikadan" have secretly merged to beat the circulation of "Kungumam" flourishing solely on the merit of its freebies. Same clan of writers, same model of articles, same cine tidbits, same masala- almost totally identical!

I am not sure whether Kumudam/AV is also one of your targets. By the way let me assure you(upto you to accept it or not), that today's youth have little regard for Kumudam/AV or for that matter any tamil magazine, as it is most city-bred tamil youth I encountered cant read tamil for nuts :lol: Personally, i have never lost sleep over K/AV and the likes, I may occasionally pick it for the mere thrill of seeing some tamil print!



Don't tell me u don't know tat there r girls/women in various parts of India indulging in internet pornography??
I thot u were well-informed abt these current happenings here??
Neways, since u actually seem to trust the facts presented by print media viz. India Today/Outlook etc., might I suggest u read the Sept.(can't rem. exact date) '04 issue of India Today tat has w/ full coverage on this issue? U can find out from the title on the cover itself "Desi porn boom"......there was yet another article abt internet porn more recently, this time w/ respect to call centre employees......

No I dont know that and if that's the case, i refuse to believe it 100%. You alleged housewives hooking up on the net, I've nothing to say except that 99% of them must be men with a female name :lol:

As far your second and more disturbing allegation, most of the call center employees are B.Com/BA grads for whom the callcenter job is a godsend as a career, these days with only engineers getting some decent jobs. It has opened up career options for them and I know several who make the most out of it in wholesome ways. The group you are targeting is a miniscule minority, I personally wouldnt lose sleep over it.
besides if someone is selling herself that way, why blame callcenter profession or the media, she would have gone ahead and done it in any case!



Understood. But still...as I said, if majority of the society doesn't care to react to this or think there isn't nething tat can be done to improve this kind of situation, y publish it as such a 'hot' news (Ind. today IMO, made it sound more like entertaining rather than informing!).....??
Yes it IS IMPORTANT TO PUBLISH IT! Atleast parents will be aware of the traps awaiting their kids generation. If not for that, they will have no way of knowing it.

PP/Stanher, I've come to the end of the time space I can allot to this thread since our discussions are not going to achieve anything in the real world :) If you think media really has an effect, think about this: What kids pick up in school/college is 100 times more than what media can inject, so it boils down to how parents train them up to reject and accept choices.
I mean, a film like Boys or NEW comes once in 2 years and if 2 hours of viewing that can negate the 1000s of hours a kid spends with his parents, then it means his parents have done a very lousy job.

What your ideas will do is raise clouds of doubt among all the normal young men and women in these dubious fields - There are tons of youngsters I know in these professions with monastic lifestyles and it's unfair to tar them with the same brush. They've all gone through such situations in school itself and know how to handle it in the workplace. And personally, though I am very conservative and frugal in my foodhabits/dress(I dont eat anything sweet/sugary and wear only cotton, been a long time since I wore jeans whether in india or abroad) I dont advocate them and will not advocate or impress them on my children, my choices are solely my choices :)

[lordstanher]

No I dont know that and if that's the case, i refuse to believe it 100%. You alleged housewives hooking up on the net, I've nothing to say except that 99% of them must be men with a female name :lol:

Yea there r cases like tat too..... :wink: but there r many college girls/housewives who willingly end up as prize targets, w/ the hope of making fast money, to individuals selling porn pics./videos to webmasters of such sites across the world via the net......
And again, there hav also been girls/women who were forced into doing it- eg. the notorious Dr. Prakash of Chennai (surely u've heard abt him?) who coerced many of his female patients, mainly housewives & college girls as well as boys into 'acting' for porn sites tat he created himself :evil: .......I believe those sites r still operating even tho he was arrested back in 2001!


....if someone is selling herself that way, why blame callcenter profession or the media, she would have gone ahead and done it in any case!

Looks like u got the wrong pic. from my earlier reference..... :)
I wasn't making ne allegation/generalisation against all call centre employees...... :roll: My comments were w/ reference to said article in India Today tat featured the working conditions of employees in call centres.......in tat context they also mentioned these happenings in certain call centres (no idea exactly which ones/where)......my referring to the pornography indulgence bit was just one......there were various other incidents mentioned as well.......such as this girl working in one o the centres who was gang-raped by 3-4 of her colleagues! :evil: But of course tat cud happen newhere......

[pavalamani pragasam]

[tscii:0ccb8f8ab3]Another voice(verse) expressing the same concern:

From today’s newspaper:

Tech wreck
Internet porn is becoming filthier day by day
The perverts stop somewhere we pray
Private moments are now becoming public
It’s a violation that’s oh-so-sick
Dear technology, for you what a price we pay!
[/tscii:0ccb8f8ab3]

[lordstanher]

[tscii:bf94a30163]Another voice(verse) expressing the same concern:

From today’s newspaper:

Tech wreck
Internet porn is becoming filthier day by day
The perverts stop somewhere we pray
Private moments are now becoming public
It’s a violation that’s oh-so-sick
Dear technology, for you what a price we pay!
[/tscii:bf94a30163]

A very good one! :thumbsup: :D
Hopefully it turns out to be an eye-opener sum day!

[hehehewalrus]

Stanher,
what's the point? Because of one Dr.Prakash, youngsters cant use the net? :?
When there are 75-100 channels runnign 24 hrs a day, there are bound to be negative effects. Instead of railing against them, it is far more practical to build a counter mechanism for it.

You have a right to protest but it would make sense to EFFECTIVELY protest. If you search on media shenanigans in google, you will get 10000 hits. It makes more sense to gang up together in the real world and combat the magazines(bulk unsubscribing etc) than fighting it out in the dingy corners of cyberspace.

And this isnt such a recent phenomenon. The protest against recent movies like BOYS, NEW, Thulluvadho Ilamai have been much much vocal compared to Udhiri Pookal/Aval Appadithan/Arangetram all of which came in the mid 70s. Heck, for all you care, a movie like Moondram Pirai has tremendous dose of vulgarity.

I had been lashing out at the Indian movie system way back in late 90s. All this talk of western television corrupting indian minds is hogwash. Those days star movies had categories of G, PG, 12, 15, 18 and thats definitely more sensible than the indian rating system(does it exist in the first place?)

And you expect these things to happen when the previous chairperson of the Censor Board was Asha Parekh and the current Chairperson is Sharmila Tagore, the first indian actress to appear in 2 piece(Kashmir Ki Kali-1964) :lol2: :lol2: :lol2: :lol2:

[lordstanher]

Stanher, what's the point? Because of one Dr.Prakash, youngsters cant use the net? :?

Tat, walrus, was certainly not my point! :banghead:
I had mentioned the instance of Dr. Prakash in context of girls/women being exploited/exploiting themselves thru internet porn, in response to ur doubts reg. the same....hope it sounds clear enuff now......! :D



And this isnt such a recent phenomenon. The protest against recent movies like BOYS, NEW, Thulluvadho Ilamai have been much much vocal compared to Udhiri Pookal/Aval Appadithan/Arangetram all of which came in the mid 70s. Heck, for all you care, a movie like Moondram Pirai has tremendous dose of vulgarity.

I'm afraid I havn't seen the older Tamil movies u mention, to be able to comment.....but I do agree w/ u tat this isn't entirely a recent phenomenon.......however, I daresay tat display of such vulgarities in movies has been on the rise and going more unchecked since the last decade.


All this talk of western television corrupting indian minds is hogwash.

Tats exactly the same view even I'd expressed in this thread- as well as a few other ones- earlier......most of our Indian movies (inc. the so-called 'family' ones) do as much- if not more- damage as the Wetsern ones.......
I've found it really ironic to notice ppl. in our society verbally protesting against a kissing scene in a western movie (not tat I like it) but OTOH, wordlessly accepting a scene in many an Indian movie explicitly showing a woman wearing/taking off her Saree (when in real life, no respectable woman wud like to be watched thoroughly while doing the same!) or worse still, being touched by her 'lover' in provocative ways during a song/dance....when in real life even married couples can't walk around holding hands in public!



And you expect these things to happen when the previous chairperson of the Censor Board was Asha Parekh and the current Chairperson is Sharmila Tagore, the first indian actress to appear in 2 piece(Kashmir Ki Kali-1964) :lol2: :lol2: :lol2: :lol2:

But I thot Asha Parekh did take a fair stand against vulgarity in Indian movies during her tenure (which earned her sufficient ire of sum film directors like Shekhar Kapur)?? :?
Neways, I always thot the Bollywood Censor Board has lately become as good as a 'nam ke vaasthe'.....and I'm not sure abt even the existence of ne in the South, going by the unchecked levels of vulgarity in Tollywood/Kollywood etc. movies! :evil:

[a.ratchasi]

yeah... in most of the equal right for women cases, their perception is that men enjoy more rights and they should also be entitled to have the same rights that men enjoy...

Men enjoy rights, whereas most women dont know that they have rights.


but, i really doubt whether men really enjoy more rights than women. if yes, in what way?
Of course they do. So much so it has become part of men's existence.


regarding media spoiling women - as mentioned by pp, as usual - this time i fully agree with you madam... .. but i should add that only women are spoiled by media.
Media spoils youth, irregardless male or female.
Unfortunately, in our society, it is the female who has to live with the burden of upholding one's reputation. Do note that I do not intend to advocate doing away with upholding one's repute, but I strongly feel that both men and female should be held against if they are indeed influenced by the media.

[suressh]

:)

// Men enjoy rights, whereas most women dont know that they have rights. //

- right.. i agree with you a.r. but i believe women have begun to know their rights. they had been betrayed for years and years. will take time to change, but it is obvious that change is happening.

// Of course they do. So much so it has become part of men's existence. //

- in what way they do? can u explain me pls ?

// Media spoils youth, irregardless male or female. Unfortunately, in our society, it is the female who has to live with the burden of upholding one's reputation. Do note that I do not intend to advocate doing away with upholding one's repute, but I strongly feel that both men and female should be held against if they are indeed influenced by the media.//

- ha ha... i intended to say that men are already spoiled and media has nothing to add up... :) whereas women have started to get spoiled.

:)

[lordstanher]

- ha ha... i intended to say that men are already spoiled and media has nothing to add up... :) whereas women have started to get spoiled. :)

Exactly! :D
Very much wat even I've been intending to say.......which is y I for one, hardly thot it necessary to point fingers at men in this thread! Men can't get ne worse 'cos therez nothing worse than worst! :wink: :lol2:

[a.ratchasi]

Nice going suresh & lord! :)

[lordstanher]

Nice going suresh & lord! :)

Um....assuming tat u actually mean this & agree w/ wat we said, tks! :D

[a.ratchasi]

Men can't get ne worse 'cos therez nothing worse than worst!

Well, of course I meant it!
How can I not agree to what you guys have mentioned above! :lol: :lol: :wink:

[suressh]

:)

a.r,

mentioned ?

i thought it was confession.... :wink: :lol:

:)

[hehehewalrus]

Something i wanted to add for a long time...



At this juncture of making leaps & bounds in the fields of economics & technology under the wonderful captaincy of the likes of Abdul Kalam & a host of technocrats & enterpreuners....
.
.
---------------------------------
Eager to watch the trends of the world & to nurture in the youth who carry the future world on their shoulders a right sense of values.

PP,
while I appreciate your concern and desire to see "India Shining", i would like to point out some sad realities. I am not pouring cold water on your wishes but trying as much as possible to present the truest picture.

Abul Kalams and Narayanamurthys are radical exceptions of the system. They may be desirable role models but whether today's youth actually desire to keep them as a role model is an entirely different issue.

There are two salient qualities that are inborn in us as Indians - 1) a feeling of insecurity 2) aspire to be good enough, not to be the best

Quality One is often seen by unspoken attitudes like "I will only stick with people of my region, my caste, my religion, my language as I cannot trust anyone else, its a dog-eat-dog world, hence only person who is alike me in every respect is worthy of my trust".

Such parochial mindsets that existed for 5000 years cannot be wished away easily. Even today, no matter how "modern", such mindsets exist in the minds of youth.

Quality Two is the corollary to Quality One and is evinced by attitudes like "I will only do what is necessary to get my pound of flesh, I do not care what is my neighbor's share". It is this quality that makes Indians go for what is good enough and not for what is best.

Madam Curie toiled in a dinghy lab to discover radium and in the process died premature due to the harmful exposure to radiation. The benefits did not reach her but went to the next generation after her. Such mindsets we simply do not possess - that is why we are happy to study for the sake of passing an exam, or to get a job. Nobody wants to invest time and effort in something whose fruits will only be enjoyed by a latter generation. A good example is the software world where almost every youngster wants to stop learning at age 25, become a manager and play with excel sheets for the rest of his life!

A Kalam or a Murthy belongs to the Curie school of thought and as long as Qualities One and Two exist, their footsteps will never be followed. They will only remain idealistic role models whose examples will only be admired, not emulated.

We will never change for the next 50 years. I am not saying this is due to the presence or absence of resources, it is due to the absence of planning or desire to define where we want to be after a certain time period. And given that our mentality is to "achieve maximum results with minimum input", we will always continue to aim lower than the stars and hang out somewhere in space not really knowing where we are heading for.

Grim as it sounds, I still reiterate in a sense of realism, not cynicism - "we are like this only".

Though it is quite a while since I finished my graduation, I still read and go through my high school/college textbooks, interact with today's college/school students and ask them to take their education seriously, and not as a chore or duty or a means of earning a living, given the lucrative options these days. I know that with our agehold belief that the ends always justify the means, it is a pointless task. But if I can convince someone to better himself by 5%, that is good enough for me.

The solution is not in role models, but in a complete revamp of attitude.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It's been a fun ride for the last 8 months, good luck to all folks.

:wave:

hehehewalrus@yahoo.com

[pavalamani pragasam]

No, hehehewalrus, I have never mistook you for a cynic. Your genuine concern is taken well as you have voiced it. yes, mediocrity, utter selfishness & narrowmindedness seem to be the law now. But miracles do happen. Facts are stranger than fiction. I believe our exceptional leaders like Kalam have the power to enthuse the still uncorrupt young minds to dream & work for the achievement of a glorious India. Curies abound in our countries too, but not brought to limelight by the degenerate MEDIA which is obsessed only with navels & obscene horrors of the tinsel world. This cannot continue forever. The pendulum must swing back, that is the law of Nature. There is going to be revolution, an intellectual, intelligent one through communication technology raising us to unprecendted heights of supremacy & grandeur.

[blahblah]

The pendulum must swing back, that is the law of Nature. There is going to be revolution, an intellectual, intelligent one through communication technology raising us to unprecendted heights of supremacy & grandeur.
:clap: :clap: :clap:
That is the spirit.If Kalams and Murthys were radical exceptions of the system once,they are creating a trend now.They have provided a step stool for the commoner,for the typical lifeless,hopeless young man in India and have shown them where they can reach and how.

As Mrs.PP rightly says,there is going to be a revolution,an intellectual one.The success of it depends on a large extent on how many people will be part of that revolution.How many can we gather into the spectrum of the new world- from among the women,the poor,the dalits,all who were suppressed for generations.
Ofcourse I see a real urgency in grooming talent or rather forming a talent pool which will form the leadership of the next generation.But the question is how representative that would be.

In a new India there can be no suppression of the classes or gender which were subjected to extreme injustice for centuries.I say this in the present context.See this:

The women's reservation bill which proposes 33%reservation for women in constitutional authorities such as the Indian Parliament has been struggling to make its way through since 1996.The reason?-Powerful yet insecure villains in the corridors of power feel threatened!Right now they are proposing another plan to circumvent the problem.To increase the number of seats in Loksabha to 900,and then offer the women their share[so that there will be more seats available to them and their kin].I am sure if the current women politicians were not bonded labourers of their male masters,things would have been different.They all try to make a noise here and there,but there is no unified action.[Probably these women who are already there are undeserving candidates who find their fortune in obeying their male counterparts].

No one can prove themselves in today's society unless they are given equal opportunities.Till the woman succeeds in grabbing that opportunity from her unwilling man her role in the society would be confined to the kitchen.Good Luck comrades! :thumbsup:

[pavalamani pragasam]

Thanx, blahblah :D

[pavalamani pragasam]

With the advent of so many machines, the woman is no more confined to the kitchen for long hours. She must be freed from too many hours of viewing utterly senseless & dangerous mega serials :shock:

[nirosha sen]

I'll second your proposal on the megaserial, Pava!!

My God, to be still stuck on a groove, when they show women and their inherent, "weaknesses and stupidity" is quite simply mind-boggling to me!!!! Even production houses headed by women, continue to churn out such senseless portrayal of women!! That too in the world's largest secular, democracy!!

Are they portraying what is really out there???? Or merely flogging an already dead horse, and hoping for it's revival through a media conjured, cult????

[pavalamani pragasam]

Thanxpaa :D Here is the link to a very sensible article about the latest provocative ad in the MEDIA published in this week's thinnai.com:

http://thinnai.com/pl0805051.html

[lordstanher]

Thanxpaa :D Here is the link to a very sensible article about the latest provocative ad in the MEDIA published in this week's thinnai.com:

http://thinnai.com/pl0805051.html

Ooops! I'd clicked on this link out of curiosity but unftly my PC cannot depict Tamil fonts nor can I read Tamil! :(
But I do hav a suspicion abt wat the ad in qsn. cud've been........!

[nirosha sen]

Thanks for owning up, Stan!! :D Yeah, I was too embarrased to say it too!!

Sorry Pava!! I too could not make sense of the font as I'm not literate in Tamil! :(

[pavalamani pragasam]

Sorry, lordstanher & Niro :( The article is too long for me to translate & it will lose its strength in rendering in English. Let me explain in short: it is an ad WIDELY publicised in all vehicles of MEDIA about launching 2 issues on Sunday from a popular daily, "Dinamalar". The ad came well in advance as a suspense-filled, titillating idea of a bedroom scene with lots of hidden meaning between a young couple. Why resort to such overtly sexy tones for a harmless ad for a daily? Isnt it a syndrome of a sickly mind, bent on seducing the impressionable audience? Is it not criminal & unpardonable to put huge hoardings of the bedroom scene with a naughty caption? Will it not give rise to dangerous distractions for drivers during peak hour traffic? It is a pathetic dilemma when curious children ask their elders what the naughty caption means. Villainous mischief in the guise of innocent ad technique. :twisted: The lady fresh out of her bath eludes the hands of the gentleman who tells her, "Sunday is meant for two/twice". What can be more explicit where a young couple are involved in that particular expression sported on the faces? :evil: Utter lack of accountability on the part of the MEDIA to safegaurd the interests & sensibilities of all ages of society. :twisted:

[pavalamani pragasam]

The author of the thinnai article had deplored the degradation of our conservative society's decent behaviour in public unlike in the West which we are aping now.

[pavalamani pragasam]

The author of the thinnai article had deplored the degradation of our conservative society's decent behaviour in public unlike in the West which we are aping now.

[nirosha sen]

:shock: Boy, is that what conservative India has come to????? Such gross abuse of the Media too!!!

Isn't there a Censorship Board to oversee all this, innuendo filled ads???? :?

[lordstanher]

Tks for briefing up the article PP ma'm! :D
However, I was actually thinking abt 1 out of 2 other recent ads on TV.....one on Sun TV abt sum Saree store (Ranjana's or sumthing) where this young woman in a heavy silk Saree dances (for lack of a better term!) abt & sings in a gruff male-ish voice, obscenely displaying her belly/navel......ughh!
Therez another one I really got pissed off abt.....abt a new pair of slippers, where they appear on the feet of a lady modestly clad in a Saree & she instantly turns into a skimpy-clad dancer! :evil:
Sum ppl. might of course find the latter funny tho.......!
I was under the impression tat atleast ads were being monitored- by the Ministry of Broadcasting/Info.......I rem. a few yrs ago, wjhen it was headed by Sushma Swaraj, there was a lot of disapproval on her side abt an ad for 'Close-up' toothpaste where a convict brushes his teeth w/ it & is abt to be hanged when he's asked his last wish, he desires to kiss the lady warden......& she readily obliges! :evil:
Swaraj had insisted on banning this ad as it was considered an insulting way to depict a woman in authority.......there were debates over this one ad for quite a while......even read sum comments in the local papers abt it then.......of course, not surprisingly, sum of the Gen.X-Y youth (inc. sum girls!) actually glorified/supported it, saying tat it was 'poetically beautiful', romantic, et cetera.........! :roll: :evil:


Is it not criminal & unpardonable to put huge hoardings of the bedroom scene with a naughty caption? Will it not give rise to dangerous distractions for drivers during peak hour traffic? It is a pathetic dilemma when curious children ask their elders what the naughty caption means. Villainous mischief in the guise of innocent ad technique. :twisted:

Exactly! 'can imagine the pressure on the poor parents in qsn.!! :lol2:
U were indeed rite ma'm, abt advertisers of today- taking globalisation/modernism as an excuse, they r mostly no doubt intent upon solely hogging money from advertising sum product....& the capitalism-inclined marketing ppl. in turn, r too busy to see only ways of promoting their product successfully in a rat-race of competition, to bother abt social ethics! :evil:

[lordstanher]

:shock: Boy, is that what conservative India has come to????? Such gross abuse of the Media too!!!

Isn't there a Censorship Board to oversee all this, innuendo filled ads???? :?

"Conservative" India??!! :shock: :lol: Niro 'aunty', neenga entha kaalath India pathhi pesaraenguh??! :wink: :lol2:
I mean, this adjective wud've been generally suitable for India until maybe the 1980s! :lol2:
Neways, jokes apart, even I've been wondering the same- how come the Ministry of Broadcasting/Info. is in hibernation today, as ads r getting more & more grosse w/ time??! :evil:
If only Sushma Swaraj was still in charge..........! :(

[hehehewalrus]

If only Sushma Swaraj was still in charge..........! :(

Wonder which Censor Board will save us from seeing Sushma Swaraj with a shaved head, eating black grams and sleeping on the floor
:)

http://telegraphindia.com/1040607/asp/opinion/story_3318195.asp

[lordstanher]

Wonder which Censor Board will save us from seeing Sushma Swaraj with a shaved head, eating black grams and sleeping on the floor :)

http://telegraphindia.com/1040607/asp/opinion/story_3318195.asp

Dear, dear.....the poor thing, now I do feel sorry for her! Apparently the dread of Sonia becoming the PM had led sum ppl. to partly part w/ their sanity! :?
Well, she needn't bother taking such pains to bcome a 'motte-pati' now, as Sonia didn't bcome the Direct PM neways....... :wink: :D

Btw, nice to still c u here, Walrus bhai.......had a 2nd thot abt ur 'retirement'? :D

[a.ratchasi]

Another Look at Lipstick, Blusher & Paint (Painthttp://www.wao.org.my/news/20050110talkp_lipstick.htm)

According to a recent radio survey, apparently one of the top five things that Malaysians can't live without is makeup. So what is the deal with makeup? How many of us, as women, feel that we are not ready to face the world unless we "have our face on" and carry some basic essentials in our bags? At the very least, an ever-loyal lipstick and face powder to prepare for the unexpected meeting with an acquaintance, a potential "love interest" or an ex-boyfriend.

While makeup can be a lot of fun, and adds colour and creativity to life, when taken to the extreme, it can also mean that we are apologising for the faces we are born with. Ask yourself this question, do you feel naked, inadequate and even unattractive if you do not have any makeup on? Have you ever had this doubt before you were experimenting as teenager with your mom's, aunt's or best friend's makeup kit? Why is it that when we enter into womanhood, one of the first rites of passage necessarily includes altering the way we look because we are made to believe that we are just not beautiful enough?

Most of the women role models presented to us through MTV, Hollywood or Bollywood are wearing makeup. Magazines and advertisements tell us that we have "problems", "blemishes" or lashes that are not up to par which we can fix for say, RM39.90 with their products. Teenage magazines inform our adolescent girls that there are a million and one things they can do to themselves to look glamourous or more attractive. Little girls learn by watching the adults around her that putting on makeup is what being a grown woman is all about. Some employers and companies even insist that their female employees show up to work with makeup, without which they are being "unprofessional". Hang on, isn't work about what we do and not how we look? If a woman is clean, presentable and neat, shouldn't it be her choice whether she wants to put stuff on her face or not?

This, and countless other similar messages convey to us that without makeup we look tired, washed out and not making the effort. That we are supposed to mask our true face and emotions with artificial colourful products that you could just sink your teeth into.

The sub-context is also this: that women will be judged primarily by how she looks, and that she is supposed to conform to an impossible ideal notion of "femine beauty". This completely denies the multiple dimensions of a woman and places her dangerously on the plateau of being nothing more than an object to be seen and admired.

Makeup is a multi-billion dollar industry. According to current estimates, the cosmetics and toiletries industry is put at over US$45 billion to US$66 billion yearly worldwide (Cosmetics and Body Decoration, 22 October 2002). This means that women all over the world are spending at least 180 billion ringgit per year just to make themselves look different than how they are. That makes women a very critical consumer market force. Just when women are starting to make progress into the public world of having careers and gaining economic empowerment, we are informed that we have to spend a third of our salary to buy the latest overpriced lipstick range. No wonder advertisers and makeup producers spend millions in packaging and marketing their products so that they firstly, tell us we are imperfect, then show us how we should look like with their well-posed supermodels (which would be impossible unless we have an entourage of professional makeup artists, lighting crew and starve ourselves silly), and finally how easily we can do it with their products if we were to simply part with our cash.

Arguably, what these cosmetics company have done is exploited and capitalised a human character of beauty. Historically, civilisations have evolved intellectually through decorating themselves. Go to any museum and you will see a display of ancient jewellery and evidence of aesthetic practice through the use of flowers, plant, ashes, and iron ores to paint or tattoo their bodies. It was a sign of creativity for both men and women, and had a cultural and religious symbol in addition to beauty and power. But this meaning has been somehow lost or diluted in modern application of makeup to define beauty. It has instead been used as method to reduce women into one-dimensional creatures with perceived imperfection through almost homogenous mass advertisement by cosmetic multinationals.

Does that mean we should now throw away our makeup bags and our favourite stick of lipstick and eyeliner?

No, this article isn't aimed at telling all women to abandon their makeup kit. As mentioned earlier, makeup can be a lot of fun. It has the power to make a statement of belief like the Iranian women who protested against fundamentalist anti-makeup Islamic laws in the 1990s through scarlet lipstick and nail polish. Makeup can display a cultural identity of beauty and be used to explore creativity. Just be aware the next time you step towards a makeup booth, are you there because someone is telling you something negative about yourself, or are you there on your own terms?


Jaclyn Kee
18 May 2003

[pavalamani pragasam]

Wonderful posting! :clap:

[Shakthiprabha.]

I am speechless here reg what to answer.

I do not step down, without lisptick and eyeliner. Those are the only ones I use, may it be to step out to pick up newspaper, for grocery shop, vegetable vending or parites, marriages.

I DO NOT feel its because of inadequacy we wear A NEW FACE. Infact I do not believe a dab of lipstick or eyeliner WOULD CHANGE OUR FACE TO any dramatic extent.

I refrain from wearing jewellery, flowers etc and DO NOT crave for the same.

Just like how some find, happiness in jewellery and flowers, others find it in lipsticks. PERIOD.

Agreed that these concepts of beauty were imported from the west, but I do not find any difference whatsoever in women taking to beautify themselves in their own way. SOME DO IT WITH LIPSTICKS, some do it with jewellery, others with flowers.

Make up is fun. Its a personal issue too. I again do not quite buy the idea, that ppl do make up just because THEY FEEL INADEQUATE or SOMEONE ASKED THEM TO WEAR one.

Just like how jewellery talks about ourself, the make up we wear, the colour we adorn with, the intensity etc is everyone's unique way to express her IDENTITY.

[abbydoss1969]

In olden days, before the billion dollar advertising,women did not do any make up?

I think they used indigenous materials to decorate themselves.like kajal and betel leaf for lips etc.

Are you against only modern make up?


We can see the ancient Egyptian queens in full make up in the pictures.

[abbydoss1969]

In olden days, before the billion dollar advertising,women did not do any make up?

I think they used indigenous materials to decorate themselves.like kajal and betel leaf for lips etc.

Are you against only modern make up?


We can see the ancient Egyptian queens in full make up in the pictures.

[Lambretta]

Um....I'm not at the present, debating abt wearing make-up but one question I've had for quite a while, friends......y is it tat ne fashion imported from the West is being coined as "modern" in our society?? Esp. when it comes to women?
Wats tat definition suppsoed to mean?? :?
I find even noted English magazines in our country talking abt women wearing "modern" dresses, "modern" hairstyles.....and of course here, "modern" makeup....!
Does sumthing modern hav to be only sumthing originating/inspired from the West w/ a 'foreign' name, even if ppl. in those countries hav been following/ using these for ages??
Jus bcos women in our country began wearing pants/jeans/shirts/western outfits, they can't be termed as "modern", as their western counterparts hav obv. been dressing this way since say, Henry Ford's time (apart from men all over wearing them of course)! If u live abroad, ur vocabulary wud be grossly undermined if u call these fashions "modern" there! :lol2:
So same goes for make-up as well.......
IMHO, its unfair to classify individuals (women as well as men) as "modern" jus bcos they adopt an external appearance from the West, regardless of their education/attitude.......! :x
So plse. lets not use such inappropriate terminology based on certain fashion/cosmetic trends, which wud tend to make those who like to be otherwise feel inferior/backward......!
I'm not having a go at ne-one.......jus thot of speaking out wat I thot was fair w/ respect to the gen. society.......!

[a.ratchasi]

In olden days, before the billion dollar advertising,women did not do any make up?

I think they used indigenous materials to decorate themselves.like kajal and betel leaf for lips etc.

Are you against only modern make up?

We can see the ancient Egyptian queens in full make up in the pictures.

abbydoss, nobody is against make up, modern or otherwise. It is the connotation make up is associated with nowadays that needs to be addressed.

The article posted has done just that.

It rather unfortunate (or fortunate :roll: :lol: ) that only 'modern' make up is all hyped up and portrayed as must haves for women these days.

[nirosha sen]

Um....I'm not at the present, debating abt wearing make-up but one question I've had for quite a while, friends......y is it tat ne fashion imported from the West is being coined as "modern" in our society?? Esp. when it comes to women?
Wats tat definition suppsoed to mean?? :?
I find even noted English magazines in our country talking abt women wearing "modern" dresses, "modern" hairstyles.....and of course here, "modern" makeup....!
Does sumthing modern hav to be only sumthing originating/inspired from the West w/ a 'foreign' name, even if ppl. in those countries hav been following/ using these for ages??
Jus bcos women in our country began wearing pants/jeans/shirts/western outfits, they can't be termed as "modern", as their western counterparts hav obv. been dressing this way since say, Henry Ford's time (apart from men all over wearing them of course)! If u live abroad, ur vocabulary wud be grossly undermined if u call these fashions "modern" there! :lol2:
So same goes for make-up as well.......
IMHO, its unfair to classify individuals (women as well as men) as "modern" jus bcos they adopt an external appearance from the West, regardless of their education/attitude.......! :x
So plse. lets not use such inappropriate terminology based on certain fashion/cosmetic trends, which wud tend to make those who like to be otherwise feel inferior/backward......!
I'm not having a go at ne-one.......jus thot of speaking out wat I thot was fair w/ respect to the gen. society.......!

Hi Lamb!! Feels abit strange to call you that after all that "lording" over!! Now, it's equally strange to think of you a meek lamb!!

Neways (to quote you) - responding to the above post; I do concur with what the mags. refer to as "modern" clothes when it comes to skirts, pants, etc!! Quite simply, they are not native to the East, are they???? And no, for the West to be constantly experimenting with new fashion is quite simply because of the industry that it sustains! The West too has had its fair share of conservatism and still does, I must say. I've seen horse-buggies and ladies/girls in long dresses in drab navy blue and bonnets on their heads. People who still live without running water or electricity in their little communes in the US.

Now turning back to India, apart from the city areas, like Mumbai, Chennai, etc; it was a rarity to see anyone in a Western get-up except for the men in the shirts/pants!! Most Indian women are still clad traditionally in sarees/churidars, etc. While in the West, they hardly live like they once did say, 100 years back!!

Cosmetics in India like eye-shadow, lipstick is another rarity!! Most women go about with just their plain faces, while in the West it's the norm to do their faces up even when at home!

[nirosha sen]

Um....I'm not at the present, debating abt wearing make-up but one question I've had for quite a while, friends......y is it tat ne fashion imported from the West is being coined as "modern" in our society?? Esp. when it comes to women?
Wats tat definition suppsoed to mean?? :?
I find even noted English magazines in our country talking abt women wearing "modern" dresses, "modern" hairstyles.....and of course here, "modern" makeup....!
Does sumthing modern hav to be only sumthing originating/inspired from the West w/ a 'foreign' name, even if ppl. in those countries hav been following/ using these for ages??
Jus bcos women in our country began wearing pants/jeans/shirts/western outfits, they can't be termed as "modern", as their western counterparts hav obv. been dressing this way since say, Henry Ford's time (apart from men all over wearing them of course)! If u live abroad, ur vocabulary wud be grossly undermined if u call these fashions "modern" there! :lol2:
So same goes for make-up as well.......
IMHO, its unfair to classify individuals (women as well as men) as "modern" jus bcos they adopt an external appearance from the West, regardless of their education/attitude.......! :x
So plse. lets not use such inappropriate terminology based on certain fashion/cosmetic trends, which wud tend to make those who like to be otherwise feel inferior/backward......!
I'm not having a go at ne-one.......jus thot of speaking out wat I thot was fair w/ respect to the gen. society.......!

Hi Lamb!! Feels abit strange to call you that after all that "lording" over!! Now, it's equally strange to think of you a meek lamb!!

Neways (to quote you) - responding to the above post; I do concur with what the mags. refer to as "modern" clothes when it comes to skirts, pants, etc!! Quite simply, they are not native to the East, are they???? And no, for the West to be constantly experimenting with new fashion is quite simply because of the industry that it sustains! The West too has had its fair share of conservatism and still does, I must say. I've seen horse-buggies and ladies/girls in long dresses in drab navy blue and bonnets on their heads. People who still live without running water or electricity in their little communes in the US.

Now turning back to India, apart from the city areas, like Mumbai, Chennai, etc; it was a rarity to see anyone in a Western get-up except for the men in the shirts/pants!! Most Indian women are still clad traditionally in sarees/churidars, etc. While in the West, they hardly live like they once did say, 100 years back!!

Cosmetics in India like eye-shadow, lipstick is another rarity!! Most women go about with just their plain faces, while in the West it's the norm to do their faces up even when at home!

[Lambretta]

Hi Lamb!! Feels abit strange to call you that after all that "lording" over!! Now, it's equally strange to think of you a meek lamb!!
WT.....?!! :shock: Gawd........not u too!!!!!!!! :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:.........donno wat to say to tat now.......! :roll: :roll:


Quite simply, they are not native to the East, are they????
No doubt they aren't.......still, does tat make them (or the person wearing them) modern all the same?? :huh:
I'm rather bemused when I find many of today's girls talking abt wearing "modern" dresses (& even found sum of them who tend to get high-headed jus bcos of wearing those outfits!) & hearing abt husbands who want their wives to look "modern".......so my qsn. was, does a person become modern in their entire thinking/personality jus bcos of these sartorial transitions?
I mean, wudn't u find many Saree-clad/make-upless aunties over 50 who're modern/progressive in their thinking, if educated??


Cosmetics in India like eye-shadow, lipstick is another rarity!! Most women go about with just their plain faces, while in the West it's the norm to do their faces up even when at home!
Yea.....my mother once stayed as a paying guest at an American lady's house many yrs ago........she told me how tat lady wud spend 1/2 an hr in the bathroom putting on make-up after she woke up in the morning.......even if she had to be only in the kitchen for most of the day! :)

[ssanjinika]

Frankly I just find the entire make up thing tiresome :roll: .Do you know how much effort it is.. not to mention uncomfortable.Tried the entire foundation/whatever mascara/liner/lipstick and something they put in the cheeks, at a mall once(makeup lady trying to sell me some exhorbidant stuff).God I couldnt believe how uncomfortable it was !!!It was as though my skin couldnt breathe..Couldnt wait to come home and get it off me ...and did it too with such speed that my husband bearly refrained from rolling on the floor laughing his guts out!!
I just manage to dab on some lipstick(more out of habit than anything else)before I leave for work.Lipstick which I eat before I finish my breakfast.

[Lambretta]

Frankly I just find the entire make up thing tiresome :roll: .Do you know how much effort it is.. not to mention uncomfortable.
Wow! 'hope I get a wife who thinks the same in this regard! :wink: :lol:


Tried the entire foundation/whatever mascara/liner/lipstick and something they put in the cheeks, at a mall once(makeup lady trying to sell me some exhorbidant stuff).God I couldnt believe how uncomfortable it was !!!It was as though my skin couldnt breathe..
I rem. Kamal Haasan in an interview talkin abt a similar experience when he'd done 'Avvai Shanmugi'.......he said it was sum American make-up (maybe the one u tried?) & when he put it on he cud hardly even eat for a day!

[ssanjinika]

Wow! 'hope I get a wife who thinks the same in this regard! :wink: :lol:
Im sure you will :) esp in India.Many women think this way.Unless one is born and brought up here meaning in one of the western countries ,women usually stick to a dab of lipstick and maybe some liner.



I rem. Kamal Haasan in an interview talkin abt a similar experience when he'd done 'Avvai Shanmugi'.......he said it was sum American make-up (maybe the one u tried?) & when he put it on he cud hardly even eat for a day!
**phew** The tortures we all go through in the name of work :roll: If only we got paid to sit at home :twisted:

[Lambretta]

Im sure you will :) esp in India.
Huh?! Really?? :shock: U mean India as in the present 21st cent. India??! Or dare I say u tend to wander into the '60s/70s as often as I do (kidding!) :wink: :lol:


Many women think this way.Unless one is born and brought up here meaning in one of the western countries
Hmm.......I thot India's striving to think the same way as "one of the western countries".....? :)
Neways, tks for the reassuring reply! :D
Personally tho, I don't like even the 'desi' make-up tat much...esp. Kajal/Mayee!


**phew** The tortures we all go through in the name of work :roll: If only we got paid to sit at home :twisted:
Well........actors hav to put up w/ this "torture" I guess.......esp. when they play unusual/unnatural roles........rem. the nearly lady-like looks on the old Tam. heroes (MGR/Sivaji! :wink: ) & even Tel. heroes like NTR looked positively appaling w/ the make-up tat he wore in his later ('70s) movies! :banghead:

[a.ratchasi]

...Lipstick which I eat before I finish my breakfast.

:rotfl: :rotfl:

Don't we all, ss? :wink:

[malsi]

haha..

[malsi]

by the way..i personally beleive that a woman looks more beautiful if she walks around without any "make up" and yet feel confident abt the way she looks and feels...

[pavalamani pragasam]

Even the greasy, unpowdered cheeks look attractive, inviting to a loving husband :D

[Lambretta]

Even the greasy, unpowdered cheeks look attractive, inviting to a loving husband :D
Very true! :thumbsup:
So does undyed, black hair wudn't u agree? :D

[pavalamani pragasam]

Of course :lol:

[malsi]

are you guys agreeing or is this somekind of kindal answers?

[Lambretta]

Well I can say for sure tat PP ma'm is agreeing w/ me.......! :)

[pavalamani pragasam]

:lol: