Ramayana - Another Great Epic [Archive]

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Raghu

31st May 2005, 06:45 PM

Dear All,

Let's discuss about Ramayana, just like we have been discussing Mahabharath,in full depth, chapter by chapter.

Rama was Lord Vishnu's 9th avatar in Satya Yuga, prior to Dwarpara Yuga, in which Ram, Lakshman, Bharatha and Satrughna, were born to King Dhasratha and his 3 wives, Sumitra, Kaikeyi, and Kausalya in Ayodhya.

The epic evolves mainly Around Ram, Lakshman, bharatha,Sita and Last but NOT least Hanumanji, but not much importance was given Satrughna's character, any idea as to why?

The purpose of this incarnation of Lord Vishnu is to destroy evil Ravana a fanatical Mahewsar Bhaktha, Even though Ravana was evil, he did posses some noble qualities, such his extraordinary Maheswar Bhakthi, but these were outclassed by his evilness.

Shall we discuss his Noble qualities as well as evil qualities?

Rama Yanava

31st May 2005, 06:51 PM

first of all this thread is created only to be torn into 100 pieces to give birth to new idiots to create once again the same to be bashed again and again.

Rama go off!!

-deleted-

Close this thread!

Sudhaama

31st May 2005, 07:39 PM

Dear Mr."Rama Yanava"

//.. first of all this thread is created only to be torn into 100 pieces to give birth to... "new idiots"... to create once again the same to be bashed again and again.//

So according to you .. WE ARE ALL ..... "NEW IDIOTS"...

Well ... please CLARIFY ... Who are the Old-idiots?... Does it include you ... or Not?.

...Or those who used to HURRIEDLY RECOMMEND to the Administrators..

.. to close any thread if they PERSONALLY don't RELISH others postings here?

Dear Mr. Gjnaani .. This Hub... is not YOUR EXCLUSIVE PROPERTY...

.. but common to all multi-faceted Hubbers of VARIED- TASTES, Faiths, Beliefs and Interests too

One Man's Food ...MAY BE... anothers Poison...

Ramayana is . the so called one of the Epics of SECULAR-INDIA.

Dear Friend... why did you not INTERFERE like this on Kamba- Ramayana also under this Hub?

Perhaps I am an IDIOT..since I am following in my Life..

... along with my some of my Christian and Muslim-Friends too...

.. .the GREAT -MORALS... as we were taught by our Tamil-Teacher Mr. Francis in our Tender-age ...

... further FORTIFIED in the Seminars and Books by the Justice Mr. Mohammad Ismail...

... more than my another Tamil- Scholar Teacher Mr. Govindasami Naicker.

// Rama go off!!//

If Rama can go off from the minds of Dr Solomon Paappiah. and Mr.
Dr Abdul-Kalam our India- President... as also from the Islamic Indonesia and Budhists Thailand... then we can think of this Great and WISE idea

//Close this thread!//

The Administrators of our Hub...are ... NOT IDIOTS as you mean but are Wise.

I reiterate...Dear Mr. Gjnaani .. This Hub... is not YOUR EXCLUSIVE PROPERTY

One Man's Food...MAY BE... another Man's Poison. !!!.

This Hub is a Five-Star Restaurant catering to the varied needs of GLOBAL- VISIORS

Raghu

31st May 2005, 07:47 PM

Dear Sudhama Sir,

Can we please outline the Good Qualities of Ravana and all the negative qualities and the morals behind this.

Ravana though was an arrogant demon, he never thought him self to be equal to Maheswar unlike Banasur In Mahabharth who thought he was as powerful as mahaeswar.

Pls post your views on this sir, thanks

Sudhaama

31st May 2005, 07:53 PM

Raghu

31st May 2005, 08:00 PM

Dear Mr. Raghu,

Why do you want to INAUGURATE this Glorious Thread... by INTRODUCING the Villain First prior to the Great Hero and Heroine of the Topic...

We will come to Ravanha too later on his Greatness on one Face alongside his other side Dark- Face.

Please start with the Hero of the Topic.

Dear Sudhama sir,

Fine no problem, I will let you have the honours, pls start your post about Lord Rama and his noble character

viggop

31st May 2005, 08:12 PM

Rama is supposed to be an avataram of Lord Vishnu who behaves like a man.Unlike the Krishna avatar(which is said to be the complete TEACHER of DHARMA avatar),Rama makes lot of mistakes too just like any other human being.

viggop

31st May 2005, 08:14 PM

Copied and pasted from a website
================================

The one in whose memory yogis revel in the bliss of brahman' -- is the meaning of the word Rama. ramante yogino-nante brahmaanande chidaatmani -- is the declaration in the Padma-purana. 'ramante' (they revel, enjoy) is the action which forms the root verb for 'Rama'. The greatness of the word 'Rama' is not just because what the son of Dasaratha did what he did. Preceptor Vasishta hit upon the name for the child of Dasaratha because he knew that it was already a 'taaraka-mantra' -- that is, the mantra which takes you across the ocean of samsaara.

And that is why the name Rama has been isolated
and earmarked to be equivalent to
the whole of Vishnu sahasra-naama.
There are only two mantras,
in the whole of Hindu religious tradition,
which get the epithet 'taaraka' (that which can ferry you across);
and these are the syllable OM, and the name Rama.
This single fact epitomises the importance associated with Rama,
the name as well as the Godhead, in the entire Hindu cultural milieu.
The sage Valmiki before he became a Maharshi,
recited the name of Rama, several thousands of years
and attained the status of a maharshi.
The syllable 'ra' comes from the eight-lettered mantra of Narayana
and the syllable 'ma' comes from the five lettered mantra of Siva.
Both are the life-giving letters (= jiiva-aksharas) of the respective mantras;
because without them the two mantras become a curse.
Without these letters, the mantra naraayanaaya becomes
na ayanaaya - meaning, not for good;
and namas-sivaaya becomes
na sivaaya - meaning, again, not for good.
Thus the word Rama combines in itself the life-giving letters
of the two most important mantras of the Hindu religion .
The syllable 'ra' the moment it comes out of the tongue
purifies you from all the sins by the very fact that
it comes from the mantra of the protector, Naaraayana.
On the other hand,
the syllable 'ma' burns all the sins by the very fact that
it comes from the mantra of Siva, the destroyer.
This is therefore the King of all mantras,
the holy jewel of mantras,
as is rightly sung by Saint Thiagaraja,
who is one of the most famous recent historical examples of persons
who attained the jivan-miukti stage
- the released stage even while alive -
by the sheer repetition of the Rama name.

Raghu

31st May 2005, 08:42 PM

Viggop

Good posts, esp about the mantras, now coming to your post about Rama commiting mistakes is some thing new to me, can you elaborate a bit more on all the mistakes he made?

thanks

viggop

31st May 2005, 09:10 PM

Raghu

31st May 2005, 09:14 PM

jaiganes

31st May 2005, 09:30 PM

Rama is a paradox!
In one scene he sacrifices his throne and lved ones to go to the jungle at the behest of his father. In another scene he is seen losing all composure at the loss of Sita and even scolds Lakshmana for having lost guard and thereby losing sita.
He asks Ravana to comeback again another day since he(Ravana) had lost all his weapons, but kills Vaalee by hiding behind a tree. crowning "glory" is the "test by fire" of Sita.
In spite of all this what sets Rama apart is he accepts his mistakes readily.

Thiru

31st May 2005, 09:42 PM

Raghu
He breaks the back of Kuni by sending arrows when he was just a boy.This is why she takes revenge on Rama by asking kaikeyi to make bharatha as king.

By man,i meant he never does any magic like Lord Krishna does.Krishna is a mayavi.Lord Rama faces all troubles like an ordinary man and overcomes them like ordinary men.

Viggop

Who was Kuni?

kuni is the one who instigates kaikeyi to ask for the boons to send Rama to the forest.. She's kind of God mother to Kaikeyi.. :)

Raghu

31st May 2005, 09:55 PM

SRS

31st May 2005, 11:18 PM

Nice to see this thread here.

Since we are starting with Shri Ram:

Valmiki has recorded in Bal Kaand Sarga 19 and shloka 8 and 9 (1/18/8,9) that Shri Ram was born on the ninth tithi of Chaitra month when the position of different planets vis-a-vis zodiac constellations and nakshatras (visible stars) was as under :- 1 Sun in Aries ii) Saturn in Libra iii) Jupiter in Cancer iv) Venus in Pisces v) Mars in Capricorn vi) Lunar month of Chaitra vii) Ninth day after no moon viii) Lagna as Cancer (Cancer was rising in the east) ix) Moon on the Punarvasu (Gemini constellation & Pollux star) x) Day time (around noon)

Yr/Month of birth: January 10, 5114 BC

Place of Birth: Ayodha. Ayodhya was located over the banks of Saryu River with Ganga and Panchal Pradesh on one side and Mithila on the other side.

Lineage: Shri Ram belonged to the Surya Vansh and was the 64th ruler of this dynasty. The names and other relevant particulars of previous 63 kings are listed on in Ayodhya Ka Itihas written about 80 years back by Rai Bahadur Sita Ram and the ancestors of Shri Ram have been traced out as under: Shri Ram, S/o King Dashratha, S/o King Aja, S/o King Raghu, S/o King Dilip and so on.

viggop

1st June 2005, 10:13 AM

Erudite persons can post about the avathara of Lord Vishnu as Rama.Why he did the things he did.

One important slokam in Ramayana is Aditya Hrudayam.I think Rama is apprehensive about war and Sage Agastya(mythological founder of Tamil language) recites the Aditya Hrudayam.

Raghu

1st June 2005, 03:08 PM

Raghu
He breaks the back of Kuni by sending arrows when he was just a boy.This is why she takes revenge on Rama by asking kaikeyi to make bharatha as king.

Is that why she had bent back?

viggop

1st June 2005, 04:44 PM

I think yes.It was Lord Ramam playful mischief which broke her back

aravindhan

1st June 2005, 05:04 PM

crowning "glory" is the "test by fire" of Sita.
Compare this scene in the Kamba ramayanam and the Valmiki ramayanam sometime. They are quite different, and the differences are extremely interesting.

Raghu

1st June 2005, 05:25 PM

crowning "glory" is the "test by fire" of Sita.
Compare this scene in the Kamba ramayanam and the Valmiki ramayanam sometime. They are quite different, and the differences are extremely interesting.

True I find the same in Mahabhartha as well, I mean the Tamil Version from Sanskrit Version.

Idiappam

2nd June 2005, 01:19 AM

There is an episode in the Ramayana of one Sambuka! Can someone tell me the whole episode please.

viggop

2nd June 2005, 09:52 AM

Let us talk about King Dasaratha and his queens from the ramayana.
His queens were Kaushalya(rama's mother),KaiKeyi(bharatha) and Sumitra(lakshmana and shatrugna)

Can anyone tell me the meaning of these names? What does Dasaratha,Kaushalya,Kaikeyi and Sumitra mean?

simplysimran

2nd June 2005, 03:22 PM

There is an episode in the Ramayana of one Sambuka! Can someone tell me the whole episode please.

iddiyapam,

Was he demon who confronted Ramachandra prabhu in the vanavasa?

viggop

2nd June 2005, 03:28 PM

Does Dasaratha mean "one who can ride 10 rathas(chariots)
Kaushalya--- from Kosahala nadu?
Sumitra---?
Kaikeyi --- ?

Idiappam

2nd June 2005, 03:56 PM

There is an episode in the Ramayana of one Sambuka! Can someone tell me the whole episode please.

iddiyapam,

Was he demon who confronted Ramachandra prabhu in the vanavasa?

No!

rajasaranam

2nd June 2005, 06:08 PM

Idiappam,

Sampukan, Ekalavyan matrum erikkapatta aruvar ivargalin thuyarukellam inge badhilgal kidaiyaathu....
etho oru uppu-sappatra kaaranam koori nam kelvigalai ozhikka paarpaargal!
aanalum ungal idaiyaraatha muyarchiyai paaraatugiren :D

aravindhan

2nd June 2005, 06:30 PM

Was he demon who confronted Ramachandra prabhu in the vanavasa?
No. He was a shudra sage who, according to the Uttarakandam, was killed by Rama because he performed Vedic rites and austerities with the aim of reaching heaven with his body. The story is connected the story of the brahmin man who blames Rama for the death of his son.

In addition to featuring quite prominently in traditional shankavalis, the picture of Rama beheading Sambuka was a very powerful symbol in Dalit and anti-casteist movements. I am surprised that people on this forum do not seem to be familiar with it.

viggop

2nd June 2005, 07:42 PM

Raghu

2nd June 2005, 07:56 PM

this story of Sage shambuka does not seem to be prominent.very few characters in ramayana are well known(i barely know of about 10 characters).

Anyway,let us start from the first.Can someone tell more about Dasarath and his wives? The meaning of their names etc.

here you go Viggop

Dasaratha in Hindu mythology is the king of Ayodhya and a descendant of Raghuvamsa. He is the father of Lord Rama, the heroic prince who is considered an avatar of Vishnu in the epic Ramayana.

The legend of Dasaratha is an eventful one. It is said that Dasaratha during one of his hunting expeditions, heard a noise resembling an elephant's roar from a nearby waterhole, and shot in the direction with an arrow. He was famous for his ability to shoot an arrow just by hearing the noise. Much to his chagrin, he finds that he has instead shot a young boy called Sravana kumar who was collecting water to quench the thirst of his blind parents. Sravana used to carry his parents everywhere on two pans of a balance supported on his shoulders. They were completely dependent on the boy and Sravana was inconsolable at the thought that they will be left without anybody to protect them. He requests the King to carry the water to his parents, as his dying wish. The old couple drink the water, not knowing that it is not being offered by their son. The king hesitantly, narrates the incident to them, who are mortally shocked. The old father curses the king in grief, that he would one day suffer Putrasoka (The grief of separation from one's progeny) just like they suffered at the moment. The old couple give up their lives at the same instant, not wanting to live after consuming water offered by their son's killer.

Years later, Dasaratha represents the Devas in a battle against the Asuras, with Kaikeyi, one of his queens as his charioteer. In the course of battle, the axle of his chariot-wheel gets loosened. Kaikeyi saves the king by using her hand as the axle. Touched by this, Dasaratha promises to grant Kaikeyi two boons when she wishes to avail of them.

These two incidents in Dasaratha's life play havoc in the future course of incidents. Kaikeyi demands the two boons from Dasaratha, just before he was going to crown his eldest son Rama as the king.

She demands

that her son Bharata be crowned king
that Rama leave Ayodhya and live in exile for 14 years.
The helpless king has to agree to her demands because as a Kshatriya by Dharma, he cannot go back on his words. Rama's story is vividly captured in the epic Ramayana.

The dejected king eventually dies, unable to withstand the anguish over separation from his son, thereby fulfilling the curse of Sravana's father.

viggop

2nd June 2005, 08:40 PM

Why does the dynasty always get called as "Raghuvamsam".There were kings before Raghu too.

Raghu

2nd June 2005, 08:48 PM

Why does the dynasty always get called as "Raghuvamsam".There were kings before Raghu too.

which Raghu are you talking about Viggop, kali Yuga Raghu(me) or Satya Yuga Raghu :lol:

a.ratchasi

3rd June 2005, 07:06 AM

[tscii:085727e3d6]Found an interesting read on Dasaratha.
Here it is:

Dasaratha

Dasaratha, the ten chariot king represents the human body with the five senses of perception and five senses of action. He had three wives representing three Gunas or disposition, Satwa, Rajas and Tamas- named Kausalya, Sumitra and Kaikeyi. He had four sons, who embodied in themselves the four goals of human life, Dharma, Artha, Kama and Moksha. Rama is the very embodiment of Dharma. The other three goals can be achieved only by steady adherence to Dharma. We find, therefore, the brothers Lakshmana, Bharatha and Shatrughna following the footsteps of Rama.

Selfishness lives by getting and forgetting. In this context, Dasaratha is a perfect example of one who had taken the path of Truth. He also had a title of Sathya Parakrama. There was also another title for Dasaratha, i.e., one who was bound by Dharma. Atirathi was another title for him and this meant one who could give happiness to a large extent. He was also called a Rajarishi. A king and yet a Rishi (sage) shining with brightness because of the several great qualities in him. He was taking the support and advice of eight ministers of his kingdom. These eight persons were such that they always practiced the highest Dharma. The last one of these eight persons was Sumantara. He had also accepted two sages Vasishta and Vamadeva as his Gurus. In Dasaratha daily life, he was guided by these two gurus as his purohits. In addition, when Dasaratha had some doubts or when he found that the people’s prosperity was being obstructed or when he wanted some advice, he also retained six people as his principal advisors.

The first among these six people was Suyagna, the others included Jabali, Kasyapa, Pascheya, Markandeya and Gautama. Dasaratha was ruling the whole of Bharath. There was no injustice, there was no untruth, there was no crime in the whole of Bharath during his rule.

The rule of that day was such that Dasaratha looked into the prosperity of the people. If we look at the situation in some depth and try to understand the significance and the inner meaning, we could note that man has got five working organs and five sensory organs. Altogether he has got ten Indriyas (senses). Dasaratha literally means the human body which has got five working organs and five sensory organs. Dasaratha symbolises this charioteer of the human body which has got ten organs. Dasaratha also attracted three Gunas (qualities) in the form of Kausalya, Sumitra and Kaikeyi.

The four Purusharthas, Dharma, Artha, Kama and Moksha are symbolised by Dasaratha’s four sons. Dasaratha was one who proclaimed such a significant inner meaning to the world and he urged the people to lead an ideal life.

There will be echo and a reflection for all that we do. For this, a good example was demonstrated by Dasaratha. On one occasion when he was young, he went for hunting in the forest. While he was waiting at a spot during the night, he heard some sounds and being an expert hunter, he could locate the object by the direction of the sound. He shot an arrow in the direction of the sound and soon he found that the arrow which he shot had killed the son of a Rishi (sage). He felt very sorry and he took the dead body to the father of the boy and requested that he be pardoned. When the Rishi (sage) realized that his son was dead, he was steeped in sorrow and was weeping with the dead body by his side.

In his agony, the sage cursed Dasaratha and said that for this sin, he would suffer in a similar manner and die when his son was not near him. Dasaratha recognised that whatever one does, the consequences will be inevitable and unavoidable. Dasaratha purified himself by telling himself that he must suffer the consequences for the sin he had committed. He realised that sorrow is something which comes and goes and he set an example to the world by his own life.

When Dasaratha realised that he was growing old, and that his strength and vitality were diminishing, he showed to the world that he should no longer undertake the task of being a ruler. One night during his sleep, he felt thirsty and he took out water to drink. But he found that when he was pouring water from the jug into the tumbler, his hands were shaking. He did not sleep that night at all. As soon as the day dawned, he sent for the Gurus Vasishta and Vamadeva. He told the Gurus that the vitality and the strength of his organs had diminished and, therefore, he could not rule the country. He requested them to make all preparations to install Rama on the throne.

Here he established the truth that an individual who has no control over his own organs had no right to rule over the country. In the matter of ruling over the country, Dasaratha realised the proper code of conduct for the king, and the proper code of conduct for the people. Whoever the individual may be, however great he may be, he must recognise the condition around him and must adjust himself to the surroundings. But in certain instances in Ramayana, especially when Rama was going to the forest, it had been said that Dasaratha could not bear the sorrow and that he fell down in a swoon. Here also Dasaratha was proclaiming that such sorrows are incidental and they come because of our relationship and attachment to the human body.

Sorrows and difficulties come half-way in our life, and they are not natural to us. Because Dasaratha understood this truth, he could bless Rama when he was about to go to the forest. He could bless Rama not to have any difficulties in the forest, and that he should come back quickly and happily. This is the blessing which he gave because he knew the situation. Rama was adhering to the truth at all times and because of these qualities, he did not have any problems in the forest. Rama was an ideal son. It is only when the sons take to the right path good will come to the parents.

To establish the truth of such statements to the world, it was Dasaratha who told Rama in Ramayana, "Go to the forest for the sake of adhering to the truth". Dasaratha had no kind of attachment and he had the ability to discriminate between the right and wrong. He was not an ignorant person. Dasaratha recognised that all attachments are only relationships between one body and another and such is a purely worldly attachment. On one occasion when the sage Durvasa visited Vasishta. Dasaratha was asking him for the chronology of his own dynasty. Dasaratha put the question to Durvasa with a view of finding out whether his family would uphold truth and Dharma.

At that time, Durvasa told Dasaratha that the sons he was going to have would be the embodiments of Dharma, and that they would protect Truth and would have several good qualities. From that day, he was thinking that even if he had only one son, that could satisfy him provided that his son would bring him reputation and glory.
[/tscii:085727e3d6]

viggop

3rd June 2005, 10:29 AM

Nice post a.r.

In Hinduism,i read that we are allowed to pursue artha and kama.Artha means materialistic pleasures and kama means love.But,to go after artha and kama,we should have first mastered dharma.
i.e.,quest of artha and kama should be pursued on dharmic ways only.We should not aspire to get materialistically rich by cheating other people,accepting bribes etc but through hardwork(dharmic way).We should not allow kama to corrupt our minds.Only kama allowed is between husband and wife(dharma)
Finally, all the 3,kara,artha and dharma does not mean we can attain moksha.The final quest is for moksha and that will ensure we are released from cycle of birth and death

Badri

3rd June 2005, 10:35 AM

An interesting note that I have read comes to mind:

Dharma Artha Kama Moksha has been placed in that order to consider the following grouping:

Dharma-Artha
Kama-Moksha

meaning Artha (wealth) earned through Dharmic means and Desire (kama) for Moksha

kalnayak

3rd June 2005, 11:33 AM

I heard that Dasaratha had 60,000 (arupathinaayiram) Wifes.
Is it true? If Dasaratha had lived 100 years, he would had
lived 36500 days less than the number of wifes. Please argue
these facts too.

Raghu

3rd June 2005, 03:59 PM

Dear Sudhama Sir

Very Kind and affectionate request, pls sir take this topic in the Right direction, I think we are not discussing ins structured manner, we start with some thing and before that finish, we talk some thing else, like you said sir, we should Concentrate on Lord Rama first.

pls participate sir.

thanks

viggop

3rd June 2005, 07:54 PM

[tscii:7a990e222f]Another copy and paste
========================
The Avatara as Rama has been extolled as the model of perfection for us humans to follow and emulate. He is an AdarSa-purusha (Model for Emulation). In fact he is called a suvrata -- one who has the best vows, the best character, the best behaviour. The word vrata, in Sanskrit, indicates a fundamental way of life from which one does not swerve. That His vrata is great, good, unexcelled, is what suvrata says. Rama’s vrata was five-fold: To give protection to all those who sought his refuge; To abide strictly by the promised words of the father and mother; to be responsible, as a king, to the people of his kingdom even at the cost of his own personal comfort; to be totally unperturbed in the most adverse of circumstances; and never to flaunt his real (divine) stature which was always hidden behind his human exterior. This five-fold vrata was so excellently and so exemplarily pursued by him throughout his life that even after several millenia, his very name itself is Divinity personified in the entire Hindu world. This is the PERFECTION aspect of God.
[/tscii:7a990e222f]

Sudhaama

3rd June 2005, 08:33 PM

.
Dear Mr. Raghu,

// Dear Sudhama Sir... Very Kind and affectionate request, pls sir take this topic in the Right direction, I think we are not discussing ins structured manner, we start with some thing and before that finish, we talk some thing else, like you said sir, we should Concentrate on Lord Rama first... pls participate sir.//

Thanks for remembering me. and inviting to join... Yes it is my duty.

For your information... .. I am with you all in the same dais.. by frequent viewing.

And Happy to note some valuable postings by our Friends ... quite. interesting ... although along with my persistent Grievance as you said.

Now I resume my part... on the Great Exemplary Model-Human Rama... further to the BEAUTIFUL, DEEP-MEANINGFUL Posting of Mr. Viggop.

Message of RAMAYANA for HUMANITY Eternally!!!

Ramayana is a Pre-written DRAMA.. as visualised by the Sage Valmiki...

... as per which all the Characters...SUBSEQUENTLY .. play their Role sincerely.

... unlike any other Literature or Epic in the World.

All the sensible Human-beings, want to earnestly adhere to Code of Humanity...

... as ordained by the Moral-Doctrines towards Earthly-Life.

.. as well as .... by the Commandments of our Scriptures...

... and further conforming to the Guidelies laid out by our Great Elders

But in course of life... he finds it different..hence starts questioning himself / herself

(1) In practical-Life... how far they are applicable?.. Are they just Theories only?

(2)What are all the challenges... obstructions or Hurdles one may come across in Life?

(3) How to face them... and find Practical-Solutions.... What are they?

(4) When a Man (Person) is placed in Embarassing-Situation by the dint of Clash between two or more Ideologies or Principles of Equal importance... which one should be deemed preferable? Why?

(5) What is the GREATEST HAPPINESS in Life?

(6) Which one should be the Supreme Success in Man's (Mankind) Life?

(7) What is the Ultimate-Goal in Life.?.. Is a King an exception?

(8) Which are the Ante-forces hidden within Man.. ditch him / her towards his Failures or Sufferings or Sins ?

(9) What is the Purpose of Birth on Earth as Human-being named as the Supreme-Creature?

Practical and Simple Answers... for all these Questions... in the form of a True Drama ... is called Ramayana.

Raghu

3rd June 2005, 08:51 PM

Dear Sudhama sir, here are answers to some of your question, pls pardon me, if I am wrong

(5) What is the GREATEST HAPPINESS in Life?

Self Realisation, to realise, you are not this body but an atma migrating from body to body,just as baby grows into toddler, then into kid, then to young man, then to an adult and reach old age and finaly perish.

The body you have is given according to your poorve genma karma and your next body is calculated upon your current karma, only way out of this is by attaining mukthi, by pure devotion to Maha Iswar(supreme personality of God head), this involves seperation from this Maya materialistic world

If this is realised , and understood that this body is perishable only the Atma and the Paramatma are REAL, you would attain real happiness, you will be free from material (Maya) hapiness and sadness

(6) Which one should be the Supreme Success in Man's (Mankind) Life?

Attaining Mutkthi

(7) What is the Ultimate-Goal in Life.?.. Is a King an exception?

Self realistaion finaly leading to salvation

(8) Which are the Ante-forces hidden within Man.. ditch him / her towards his Failures or Sufferings or Sins ?

Ego, selfishness, Ignorance, greed,lust

(9) What is the Purpose of Birth on Earth as Human-being named as the Supreme-Creature?

Human life's purpose is to realise and understand the spiritual platform, when a human does not realise he becomes an animal and indulge in material pleasure known as Maya

Raghu

3rd June 2005, 09:35 PM

Dear Sudhama Sir

Please ask more questions like this, and let's see how our friends tackle this, we can use greatest epics like Ramayana & Mahabhartha as examples to impose moral values in different Circumstances.

thank you sir

Idiappam

3rd June 2005, 10:40 PM

I heard that Dasaratha had 60,000 (arupathinaayiram) Wifes.
Is it true? If Dasaratha had lived 100 years, he would had
lived 36500 days less than the number of wifes. Please argue
these facts too.

Go away!! Shooooo ... This thread is for Stupid people only!

rajasaranam

3rd June 2005, 10:56 PM

....She demands

that her son Bharata be crowned king
that Rama leave Ayodhya and live in exile for 14 years.

Nice story indeed. Story-- because no sane person would have asked only a 14 years exile. she would ve asked a permanent ban of Rama. But for the author wanted a story neatly woven he chose 14 years of exile, only then the hero can come back and reign his throne...

rajasaranam

3rd June 2005, 11:16 PM

Post deleted by moderator

Thiru

3rd June 2005, 11:24 PM

rajasaranam and idiappam,
Pls stay away from this thread if you dont like what is being discussed.. Posts that are sarcastic or ridculing the epic will be deleted..

Surya

4th June 2005, 01:14 AM

(1) In practical-Life... how far they are applicable?.. Are they just Theories only?

Please correct me if I'm wrong. Aren't they applicable the whole way? I mean the ethics, and so on mentioned in Ramayan are applicable completly even today right? :)

(2)What are all the challenges... obstructions or Hurdles one may come across in Life?

That challenge his belief in these "Theories"?

viggop

4th June 2005, 11:33 AM

Excellent answers posted by Raghu to some of Sudhaama Sir's questions. :thumbsup:

Raghu

4th June 2005, 02:44 PM

Excellent answers posted by Raghu to some of Sudhaama Sir's questions. :thumbsup:

Thanks Viggop, we need more & more challenging questions like these posted by sudhama sir to have better meaning full life.

I hope sudhama sir comes up with more questions like this to open our mundane eyes!

Sudhaama

4th June 2005, 10:53 PM

[tscii:5c2f29482e]
... Ramayana-Message to Humanity.. . Continued.

Mr."Raghu" and Mr. viggop,

// "viggop":-- Excellent answers posted by Raghu to some of Sudhaama Sir's questions. :thumbsup //

// “Raghu:-- Thanks Viggop, we need more & more challenging questions like these posted by sudhama sir to have better meaning full life. I hope sudhama sir comes up with more questions like this to open our mundane eyes!//

Thanks for your Feedback- message… but both of you are foregetting the Main-point that… these Questions relate what?

… To Ramayanam… and Not your Common-Knowledge on it… without any link with the Topic undertaken here.

So to say… we have to RELATE the ANSWERS for the Questions linking with therelevant contexts of RAMAYANA…

… which only is…. the Scope, Aim and Purpose…. of the Questions.. towards LIVELY-DISCUSSION from all of you Friends here.

To start with, I take up one Question.. which I will answer myself…

…furtheron, all of you friends can pick-up the Thread of continuity. .. on the other Questions and progress forward.

// Which are the Ante-forces of Evil.. hidden within Man.. which ditch him / her… towards his Failures or Sufferings or Sins ?//

Mainly Two out of Six.. They are …. (1) Over-desire / Greed ….. (2) Anger / Wrath.

The whole Ramayana was caused mainly because of these two Evils of different characters.

(1) OVER-DESIRE / GREED :--- Rama, Seetha, Dasaratha, Kekaya-King, Mandhara (Kooni), Kaikeyi, Ravana,Indrajith,Vali,Soorpanaka

(2) ANGER / WRATH :--- Rama, Lakshmana, Ravana, Soorpanaka, Sage(Rishi) who cursed Dasaratha, Valmiki

RAMA:---

(1) On Seetha’s desire,.. rather Greed.. to possess the rare Specy Deer, Rama ran after it … ONLY TO CATCH…. and…. NOT TO KILL it… But he killed it… because under the a Spur of a Moment,… he felt it as a challenge to his Valour and that he is being deceived by some trick by the Deer… which thoughts kindled his Anger and Wrath to finish the same Animal, which the couple wanted to Nourish as a Pet. Thus he was engrossed with the Opposite feeling of Anger in place of Love.

Not only he failed to implement the purpose of his endeavour but also on his intention to fulfil the desire of his lovely wife Seetha-devi.

If Rama would Not have killed the Deer, the miserable turn of Ramayana,… yielding and succumbing to the Evil-scheme of the Wickeds Villains Ravana and Mareecha would have failed and the Hero and Heroine would not have to suffer the undue Miseries at all. This one event made Rama to weep out of shame and loss for the first time in his immaculate Life… alongside Seetha’s cries as an innocent Victim of Wickedness.of the Villain-Enemy.

Thus Rama shows to Humanity…”Oh my dear Children… Look… when I did good I enjoy, and when I erred even to a little … See the grave Resultant Misery caused
Because of my minor mistake of Anger…

So my dear Children… under all Circumstances.. even if the Circumstances WARRANT… and… JUSTIFY… never lose your Balance.

… lest you too will have to suffer at the hands of the Wicked-Enemies..

Your INNER-ENEMY is…. YOUR ANGER hidden within you… which is the Worst-Enemy than the Exterior-Enemy.

Beware… I have shown you by my Life-Experience… my dear Children ..

… BE HAPPY without giving the least room for ANGER… which is under your control.
[/tscii:5c2f29482e]

Surya

5th June 2005, 01:13 AM

Sudhamma Ji,
Thanks for the elaborate post. :D

But there are a couple things that I don't understand...which JG brought up earlier.

Almost everything that RAM does has some sort of message right?

What is the message in making Seetha Devi walk on fire to inspect her chastity?

Is it because A King must always be respected by his people, so he does it to....prove to his kingdom that the Chastity of his wife is flawless?

I know the story with a common man's conversation with his wife, which RAM overhears, and all, and I know that Shree Ram's actions are justified in this, but I just want to know the justification.

Thanks. :D

Raghu

5th June 2005, 02:38 AM

Idiappam

5th June 2005, 02:52 AM

Post deleted by moderator

Sudhaama

5th June 2005, 06:14 AM

These Two Topics of Seetha on Fire... and the King's Sense of Honour even to his one of the Subjects... a Washerman... are good questions needing descriptive replies. We will reply these Questions under the relevant contexts when we take up .later.

Now the Topic under current discussion... is..

... How far the the Two Factors... of OVER-DESIRE / GREED as well as ANGER / WRATH of the Characters .. have caused or influenced the Ramayana events...?

Starting from the Hero Rama... I have made the initial posting,

Furtheron.. others are invited to continue.. on the same Topic of OVER-DESIRE / ANGER in Ramayana.

nirosha sen

5th June 2005, 07:21 AM

From my layman's exposure to Ramayana - I was told the practice of "Sathee" started with Seetha herself attempting the jump into the fire.

So, eversince that, Hindu women were told that it was an honour and blessing to jump into the funeral pyre of their husbands. If they were reluctant, then somebody made sure they were pushed in!!

How true is the above, folks????

Idiappam

5th June 2005, 07:36 AM

Yes! Fortunately, the British put out the fire!

Sudhaama

5th June 2005, 08:30 AM

Dear Friends,

I am surprised and PAINED to note that my Requests on a reasanable fact.. is being IGNORED

... and the SUBJECT IS BEING SCATTERED HERE AND THERE... withoutany COGENCY ... resulting in Haphazarad Disorder of the Topic..

Let not the holy-sense of Devi-Seetha's Agni-pravesam... be DENIGRATED so cheap twisting it towards the Suicidal SATHI..

...which used to be performed after the DEATH OF HUSBAND... and Not in front of him while he is alive..

Raghu

5th June 2005, 05:45 PM

... How far the the Two Factors... of OVER-DESIRE / GREED as well as ANGER / WRATH of the Characters .. have caused or influenced the Ramayana events...?

Starting from the Hero Rama... I have made the initial posting,

Furtheron.. others are invited to continue.. on the same Topic of OVER-DESIRE / ANGER in Ramayana.

Sudhama Sir, OK I will try my best, please accept my advance appologies if I am wrong.

Ram- He got angry and frustrating while chasing the deer, as he could not get it, so he shot the deer dead

Sita - I do not know whether greed is the rigt word here, perhaps Over desire?, SIta fell in love with deer's beauty, not realising the danger behind the illusive(maya) deer.

The moral behind this two aspect is that OVER-DESIRE and ANGER will make one emotional ,at that time your intellectual skills are blinded leading you into self desctruction.

am I right, sudhama sir?

Sudhaama

5th June 2005, 06:24 PM

[tscii:201786b48b]...

... GREED and ANGER ... the WORST ENEMIES in Human-Life

The greatest blunder in Ramayana was the Over-desire of Seetha to accompany her Husband… to Forest… while he has undertaken the SAINT-HOOD.

Even though out of the duly Sincere-Love she offered to equally undertake Sainthood… it was the first time ever in the History for a Man-Saint to take with him his wife also… even though a Saint… which spirit itslef is contrary to Saint-hood. Because a Saint renunciates every worldly attachment… including his Wife, Parents, Brothers and others as well as the Wealth and Wordly-pleasures..

Whereas Seetha’s joining with her Saintly husband… even though as a Woman-Saint was not only a Violation of Renunciation-code but also an interference and burden to her husband in a different order of life… totally alien to her Married Life.

Even worse than her accompaniment… was her OVER-DESIRE / GREED to possess the Beautiful-Deer… which an ordinary Person, may aspire for…

…. a Queen Seetha no doubt deserves to seek for it… But not the Saintly-Seetha.

And the Saint Rama… after his Renunciation of all desires, his desire to fulfil the wants of his wife… again is another violation of Renunciation….

The Consequences of which both of them miserably faced making the story of Ramayana

ANGER of Rama.. ESPECIALLY THE SAINT…along with OVER-DESIRE of Seetha ..
… culminated in their SUCCUMBING to the Machinations of their Wicked Enemy Ravana.

So the Message for Humanity… Rama and Seetha show by action … more than words…

Oh my dear children… We burnt our Fingers… because we did mistakes and Blunders thus we miserably suffered UNDULY… mainly because these two Evils hidden within every human-being..

Don’t allow those Natural-Evils… GREED / ANGER hidden within you …

…to raise their ugly-Hoods… hindering your Hapiness and Success in Life.
[/tscii:201786b48b]

Sudhaama

5th June 2005, 09:03 PM

[tscii:4a1cf532d2]....
.. Devi Seetha’s MESSAGE to HUMANITY.

Look my dear Earthly Children… even though my Husband Rama is the best possible exemplary Man with the Immaculate Human- Qualities, Model-Potentilaities Invincible Talents and Unparallel Competence in every respects…

… as also myself… an acclaimed Lovely-wife… with highest degree of Purity by Heart and Soul coupled with Pinnacle Qualities and Propensities.. ensuring strict-adherence to Self-Discipline and such other Human-Life-Principles…

.. We both unduly suffered … in Ramayana… Why ?... What WRONGS we commited? Because of …

(1)My GREED to accompany my Saint-Husband, even though with Selfless Love

(2) My GREED to possess a Deer … a SYMBOLISM OF ILLUSION..

(3) My ANGER on the unparallel Lakshmana, driving him out making me lose my Safe-guard.

(4) My GREED to such an extent… towards offering “Aiyam”(Honourable-Offering to Seers)…even in the Forest…. Violating the commitment to Lakshmana in crossing the House-boundary.

Consequently all the unnecessary and undue Sufferings in Ramayana… not only for me but also to my Great Husband, Emulative-Human Rama… alongside all others too…

… Only because of ME MAINLY… that too because of … My GREED and ANGER

So we BURNT OUR FINGERS.. just to show you as the GREAT LESSONS in Life by Experience…

LESSON :Any Human is not an Exception… even Gods too… Beware of GREED and ANGER..

Your Greatest INNER-ENEMIES, which can BEAT YOU OUT , in spite of all your Bests in other Respects.
[/tscii:4a1cf532d2]

SRS

6th June 2005, 03:47 AM

Querida

6th June 2005, 05:57 AM

nirosha sen

6th June 2005, 06:04 AM

As a modern woman of contemporary times - Now this is one aspect of the epic that I reject, whatever message it may contain, Pa!!! :x

The Woman was abducted and kept incarcerated by a villain who had a score to settle with Rama. But despite everything she had endured, she had to submit to some sort of inspection of her chastity??!!! No way Jose!! :x

All literature, whether it is modern or ancient epics, are written as mere stories by the writer. Whatever messages they may contain is merely subjective! So in that vein, I'm afraid, merely extolling the virtues alone without the negative aspects does not make a good discussion.

So sorry, if my two sen's worth is grating but as a woman, I needed to say it!!

Badri

6th June 2005, 06:14 AM

As a modern woman of contemporary times - Now this is one aspect of the epic that I reject, whatever message it may contain, Pa!!! :x

You began in the right way, Niro - as a modern woman of contemporary times! That is precisely it. Whenever we try to understand an epic or a legend, be it a Greek or Roman or Indian one, we need to put ourselves in mind of the times when they were written.

As people of a contemporary society, what we find as unpalatable, entirely unacceptable was the norm of a society of another day. But that was how society was in those days. To try and map those practices to modern day is totally irrelevant and inappropriate. For instance, the athletes in the Olympic Games of ancient Greece would participate in the nude, as a method to deter women from attending the events! Now, that was alright in keeping with those times, perhaps. But we cannot judge them in the light of modern society, modern laws, customs and practices.

An epic like Ramayana or Odessey are meant to be read, and if possible, such values/messages as inherent in them, be emulated. But judged? I don't think so.

Not that I think you are judging it, Niro. I'm just making an observation, that is all.

SRS

6th June 2005, 06:47 AM

digression *whoa SRS lose mom and daddy dear in one pyre eh? You could also say it was economical for not to have two pyres and save everyone the time to have to mourn all over again? And imagine the amount of white material and the shame of having a badluck widow...please atleast can choice of the wife matter or do we all need a push towards rejoining the inferno?*

There is a difference between what is "economical" and what is essential for survival. Women working at jobs is an entirely modern conception. If the woman could not provide for herself, then that means she is opting to live in poverty... as a beggar. Or else remarry, IF the age is right. And dowry, which was also very popular for a very long time. So your "economical" argument is very simplistic. Now you mention children - marriage vows are between husband and wife, not children, wife, and husband. Before you condemn sati further, consider the number of women who have abortions every year. Or consider the thousands of baby girls left to die under bridges all over Asia. Is this not the woman's choice; if the woman knows she cannot provide for the child, does she not have a right to kill it before he/she reaches an age where the suffering will be X78? Not to mention the impact of raising a malnourished child. Just like this, sati is the woman's personal choice. She is keeping the marriage vows.

viggop

6th June 2005, 10:31 AM

Anger:-
Lakshmana is said to be avatara of Adi Sesha and frequently gets angry.When Bharatha comes rushing towards the forest to ask forgiveness for his mother's act,he comes with the army too.Lakshmana thinks that bhartha has come to kill Rama with the army and asks Rama's permission to wipe out Bharatha and the entire army.

Greed:- Ravana's desire to possess Sita is an example of greed.
When Sita asks for the golden deer,rama actually tries to talk Sita out of it explaining the maya behind this.But Sita Devi is obstinate and wants to have the deer and throws a big tantrum forcing Rama to go after the Golden deer.

nirosha sen

6th June 2005, 10:35 AM

For me, somehow, we have yet to draw that line that delineates fiction from the Divine.

Homer's Illiad, is merely seen as a mythological foray of the rich imagination of the human mind, in spinning a good yarn. Ramayana to me, is no different. But unfortunately, for Indians and Hindus in particular, the air of reverance attributed to this epic, takes a fanatical stance that leaves a bad taste in the mouth!!

If only we could view this epic as mere story-telling, and be anti-poddle in our judgement, meaning, the pros and the cons of the discourse, then I do believe its literary position would be no different in the minds of the reader, than say Shakespear!

The human mind is very vulnerable to all sorts of influence and intepretation from both real events to fictitious ones. To say, that Seetha's trial by fire has no impact on the pysche of mere mortals in pushing their womenfolk into the fire, does not hold water. Anything held in divine awe, would certainly be put on a pedestal as a yard of measurement for weak, vulnerable souls such as the masses to emulate.

All I'm asking is that the Ramayana should be treated like any another epic of the world, borne from the fertile imagination of a mere mortal.

Badri

6th June 2005, 10:42 AM

Niro: You say

Homer's Illiad, is merely seen as a mythological foray of the rich imagination of the human mind, in spinning a good yarn

Seen by whom? In the days of Ancient Greece, it was seen as a real story of real heroes. There were the Gods involved in that tale as well. The fact that ancient Greek Gods are worshipped no more has made the epic lapse into a richly imaginative mythological tale.

The same is not true with Indians. If the heroes of Ramayana and Mahabharatha had lost their "Divine" status, then perhaps, everyone would view these in the same light as Odessey or Illiad. But the Gods of Ramayana and Mahabharatha are very much alive in the Hindu culture and tradition, and therefore, they have transcended the status of a literary masterpiece to become liturgical masterpieces as well.

The same is true with The Old Testament, or the Four Gospels of the New Testament too. As long as the religion is alive, these would be religous works; perhaps if the religion were obsolete as the religion of ancient Greece, then these too would become epics of imagination.

hehehewalrus

6th June 2005, 10:50 AM

The same is true with The Old Testament, or the Four Gospels of the New Testament too. As long as the religion is alive, these would be religous works; perhaps if the religion were obsolete as the religion of ancient Greece, then these too would become epics of imagination.

Very unnecessary to bring in this statement given the rules of this hub - dunno how this is gonna contribute in value to the original question..

Interesting to see a MODERATOR take sides in debates on a consistent basis(on a forum known for its many conflagrations), is this also an unwritten rule of the hub? Are the senior mods awake? ;)

Badri

6th June 2005, 10:57 AM

Come, come H3W: In the first place there is no debate here, for sides to be taken!

And the Hub rules do not say that mere mention of the word religion is taboo!

We are discussing the relativeness of epics with respect to being works of literature as against scripture.

SRS

6th June 2005, 10:59 AM

Dear Nirosha Sen,

There is no reason to believe Ramayana never happened. It is 100% true. Please see the following:

http://www.rootsweb.com/~lkawgw/adamsbridge.html

This is the bridge which Ram, Hanuman, & the Vanaras built. Now when you see this photograph, keep in mind that the only other man-made structure visible from outer space is the Great Wall of China.

If you are still having doubts, there is Sita Devi's lotus footprint:

http://www.avatara.org/sita/lotusfoot.html

Do not call Ramayana as myth, ever again, whether unintentional or not. It is NOT a myth, it is 100% true.

hehehewalrus

6th June 2005, 11:04 AM

Badri,
There was absolutely no need for you to bring in Old Testament blah blah to make your point - I am sure you are mature enough to see the risks involved.

This isnt the first time you are wearing your heart on your sleeve.

Anyway, I wont waste time with you on subjective issues. I've no wish to 'hijack' this thread further and upset the regulars(That said, your dragging in other "Scriptures" is childish though) As a "moderator" you reserve the right to silence any contrary opinion since you're the guy wielding the admin password ;)

viggop

6th June 2005, 11:08 AM

Folks
Let us not digress here.Please discuss the topic Ramayana only and the story of Ramayana.Thanks

sanjay

6th June 2005, 02:50 PM

Badri,
Do not argue with the likes of hehewalrus & blahblah. Anything pro hindu is anathema to them. They are "secular" & secular means "anti hindu".

So, ignore their comments & get on with the topic.

viggop

6th June 2005, 03:36 PM

Folks
A humble request.
Please post on ramayanam only in this thread.Do not digress from ramayanam.Thanks

nirosha sen

6th June 2005, 03:57 PM

Viggop - I respect your request, Pa!! :D Yes, whether it's told with religious fervour or read with my brand of detachment, let the discussion continue....... :D

Now, as for the footprint, sorry!! I couldn't hold back the guffaw!!! Derision aside, it's simply because we have a similar footprint shape, hewn out of a piece of rock, right here in my neighbourhood too!! And guess what they call it?????

Hanuman's footprint!! :lol:

Surya

6th June 2005, 11:27 PM

Thanks Raghu, Sudhamma Ji, & SRS for ur answers to me queries. :D

Now, Niro, :D

This whole thing is being completly mis-interpreted.

Whenever we try to understand an epic or a legend, be it a Greek or Roman or Indian one, we need to put ourselves in mind of the times when they were written.

Badri Bro! :D
Things said in the Ramayan and Mahabarath have messages for humanity of all times. They HAPPENED to serve as a path for humanity to follow. :D

The Woman was abducted and kept incarcerated by a villain who had a score to settle with Rama. But despite everything she had endured, she had to submit to some sort of inspection of her chastity??!!! No way Jose!!

Keep in mind that Raghuji said she did it volentarily. (What in sweet heaven is wrong with my spelling? I don't know! :banghead:) Even if she didn't, That is the price paid for marrying a King. A King has to do whatever it takes, to be respected by his followers with utmost respect. I think that everyone here knows the story of the Convo of the commoner with his wife, which is overheard by Shree Ram. Which leads to the whole "Jumping into fire" phenomenon. Even if Ram knows that his wife's chastity if flawless, he has no choice. He needs to prove to his kingdom that he along with his wife, his other half, is perfect. :)

As a normal man, is that justified? NO!!

But as a King? Yes! In all ways! :)

You are looking at it as a normal woman. Don't. :)

Now, as for the footprint, sorry!! I couldn't hold back the guffaw!!!..blah blah...

"Ramayan really happened! It isn't just a story!" This is the belief of many many hindus including Me, SRS, Sudhammaji, etc. And there is nothing wrong, or foolish about it! It's up to u to believe it or not! SRS has provided substantial evidence for it! You may choose to take it, you may not, it's completly up to u. But making comments that potentially offend millions of believers is completly uncalled for!

Sanjay,
Let's not get into offencive posts here! :) We woulndn't want the thread to be locked now would we? :D

Regards Y'all!! 8)

Sudhaama

7th June 2005, 02:16 AM

[tscii:d8e8208cd1]

....Devi SEETHA on FIRE !!

Punishment ?.. Suicidal- Immolation?... Sacrifice? .... Examination- Test?

Ramayana heroine Seetha-devi was an Ideal embodiment of Indian Womanhood of that Historic – era Thretha-yuga.. Two Yugas earlier to the present Kali-Yuga..

So we should not measure or evaluate the worth of the incredible events of those ancient days… based on our present day Yardstick…. Which is far and far different, irrelevant and unsuited for the purpose.

Some persons remarks here are ... CHEA... CHEA... CHEAP.. and INSULTING.!!

Let us try to understand what happened and under what Logic of the Time?

Seetha , an Ideal-Woman for Chastity conforming to the Moral-code of Indian-Ethics.. was deceptively captivated by the Villain, while she was under Sainthood.

She was under imprisonment at the alien’s custody.. for several years.

When she was got released by Rama… he declares to his Loyal-wife thus…

“ Seetha, I know undoubtedly .. that you are still now pure to the highest core… because you are basically such a chaste woman… if any wicked-man who forcibly tries to pollute you, will get himself burnt by means of your high degree of Chastity.

However.. to the World, I have to prove that my trust in you is not a SURMISE..but TRUE. .

Because I being a King… should set an Example for my Subjects (citizens)… making them believe that I have NOT taken undue advantage of my position as Monarch..

Nor that I am UNQUESTIONABLE... even as a King or Saint... Yes I too am bound by the Law of Righteousness

…common to any and every individual of the Society , irrespective of Status or any sort of Divisions or Disparities amongst the People.

As the Proverb goes… “Yathaa Raja .. Thathaa Praja”(The Way the King behaves.. so will be his People too)

So .. “Lakshmana, raise up an Agni-Kundam (Holy-Fire)… let Seetha get in and prove her UNPOLLUTED purity of her Chastity.”

Accordingly Seetha-devi enters the Agni-Kundam … praying to Agni-deva… thus

“Oh Agni-deva… If it is true that due to my captivation in an alien’s custody,

… my Chastity has been least polluted either by my Thoughts nor by my Physique…

… please DECLARE SO… such that not only all the Dignitaries and the People here, but also the three worlds know… that I am still IMMACULATE…

If Not… let this Fire burn me.. I am prepared to accept your DISCRETION whatever it be

…and this opportunity can also make myself sure about my Veracity of my Belief, Degree of Self-measure as well as the Propriety of my Yardstick on Myself.”

Then the Agni-deva comes out holding Seetha-devi on a Lotus-flower… and declares…

“Seetha-devi’s highest degree of immaculate Chastity.. is burning me… I am unable to bear it anymore… Oh Rama, accept her as radically unpolluted and the Purest.

All Devas appear on the Sky and bless Seetha-devi….appreciating her Forbearance and Fulfilment of the purpose of birth on Earth.

…By means of her duly effective Role of strict adherence to her duties as the Heroine of the Epic.

Rama feels satisfied that he has done his duty.upto the Best without any Complacency or Leniency.

All the Dignitaries as well as the People… praise Rama highly that he has performed his duty promptly and Properly

... as an Exemplary Man as well as the Role- model- King ..
[/tscii:d8e8208cd1]

Raghu

7th June 2005, 02:37 AM

What is the message in making Seetha Devi walk on fire to inspect her chastity?

Ram did not believe Seetha when she said Ravanna had not used her. So... to prove her chastity, she walked into the flames... had Ravanna used her, the flames would have finished her. BUT the flames did not. Of course, there is a larger message. The controversial one, about the value of sati. I personally do not see anything wrong with sati. Marriage vows are made for a lifetime. Many times, especially during Seetha Devi's time, the man was the sole provider for the woman. If the man died, the woman could not provide for herself, unless she married again. But as I said before, the marriage vows are for a lifetime. So... sati was a perfectly natural choice when the husband died. Also, does one not walk around the fire when he gets married? So that is probably why in sati fire is used; the marriage ends in a similar way that it began.

NO No NO, Rama had great LOVE for his wife, he never ever doubted her, he NEVER asked Devi sita to cross the fire to clarify her purity, NO NO and NO, it was curse by some Rishe, sudhama sir pls help me on this one, besides the residence of Ayodhya gave really hell of time to Rama, but he NEVER ever doubted his wife's purity

and for those who ever said Ramayana & Mahabharth were just stories, they are NOT stories written by uncle Tom, they were REAL,one has to read the entire story with a maturity level, some Idiot has insulted Devi sita here so much, I am trying to keep my head cool, but there is a limit for everything

Surya

7th June 2005, 03:34 AM

a.ratchasi

7th June 2005, 07:15 AM

[tscii:b9e8d75c35]
“ Seetha, I know undoubtedly .. that you are still now pure to the highest core… because you are basically such a chaste woman… if any wicked-man who forcibly tries to pollute you, will get himself burnt by means of your high degree of Chastity.

However.. to the World, I have to prove that my trust in you is not a SURMISE..but TRUE. .

Because I being a King… should set an Example for my Subjects (citizens)… making them believe that I have NOT taken undue advantage of my position as Monarch..

Thanks, Sudhaama sir.

Kudos to Badri for placing Ramayana on its rightful path; without compromising its past glory to accomodate the present.[/tscii:b9e8d75c35]

viggop

7th June 2005, 01:48 PM

What is the esoteric significance of the sandal that Lord Rama gave to Bharatha? Bharatha asked Rama to step on it and then step down once and then he took it back to Ayodhya.
This sandals are supposed to be very famous.
Vedanta Desikar(who belonged to VishistaDvaita school) is supposed to have written a sloka on Lord Rama's padam and the sandals.

a.ratchasi

7th June 2005, 02:30 PM

viggop wrote:
What is the esoteric significance of the sandal that Lord Rama gave to Bharatha? Bharatha asked Rama to step on it and then step down once and then he took it back to Ayodhya.
This sandals are supposed to be very famous.

Bharatha had placed the sandals on his throne and declared that Rama is the actual ruler of Ayodhya and he will be ruling it only on behalf of his brother; that is till end of the imposed exile.

The sandals were meant to imply Rama's presence during his exile.

Raghu

7th June 2005, 02:55 PM

Sudhamma and Raghu Jis,
Thanks.

But that's not how it ends right? Please let me know if I'm wrong, After Agni Bhagavan brings Sita Devi out of the fire on a lotus flower, and proves her purity to the kingdom, and after all of that. Sita Devi says that she is had enough, She goes to the forest, she gets kidnapped, after she returns, she has her chastity tested, so she asks for Bhooma Devi to take her away from all of this, and the ground opens up, Sita Devi falls in and it closes again. And Ram is left shocked. He touches the ground where Sita Devi once stood, and says, "Sitee, Sitee."

That is the most saddening part of the Ramayan.

Surya

Sita Devi leaves for the forest, due to residence of Ayodhya, they were ill talking about her and Rama, she was tolerating all the ill talks about her, but when the people insulted Rama, she could not tolerate it, so she left the palace for the forest, as far as I know she was NOT kidnaped, she took shelter in some rishi's hut in the forest , where she gave birth to Lava & Kusa, this is rishsi brings devi sita back to ayodhya, where bhoomi matha swallows devi sita in front of Rama in the palace, This is the Rishi who narrated the story of Ramayana, is his name Valmiki Munivar?

Raghu

7th June 2005, 05:57 PM

[tscii:47f8be7dc4]Rama’s father

Rama was born to King Dashratha, ruler of Ayodhya. The King, who had three wives, was issueless for many, many years. He sought the advice of Sage Vashishtha, who counseled the King to perform a Yagya. Dashratha performed a huge Yagya under the guidance of the learned Sage Shringi. Lord Agni, the god of fire, appeared in the sacred fire with a bowl of kheer in his hand, and gave it to Dashratha, telling him to feed the kheer to his wives and they will bear children.

King Dashratha’s wives

King Dashratha had three wives: Kaushalya, Kaikayee, and Sumitra. The King gave half the kheer to Kaushalya and half to Kaikayee, each of who gave half of their share to Sumitra. Months later, Kaushalya gave birth to Rama, Kaikayee gave birth to Bharat and Sumitra gave birth to the twins, Lakshman and Shatrughan.

The brothers were very close and loved each other a lot. In fact, their love was so strong that they could even sacrifice their lives for each other.

Kaikayee’s boon

Once, when King Dashratha was in the battlefield with Kaikayee by his side, a nail fitted in the axis of his chariot wheel, came off. Kaikayee saw this and inserted her little finger in the space to make sure the wheel does not fall off. As a result, Dashratha could continue the battle uninterrupted, and emerged victorious. When he saw how Kaikayee had aided him, he promised to grant her any two boons she desired.

Vishwamitra’s weapons

Ravana, the demon king with the ten heads, had been persecuting humanity for a long time. As a result of years of rigorous penance, Sage Vishwamitra had acquired divine weapons which could be used by the incarnation of Vishnu to kill Ravana. It had been prophesised that Ravana would die by the hands of the firstborn of Dashratha. Sage Vishwamitra thus set out to bestow Rama with the weapons. When he reached Ayodhya, Dashratha welcomed him and sent Rama and Lakshman, although with much hesitation, to accompany Vishwamitra into the forest to fight some demons who were disturbing Vishwamitra’s presence. Vishwamitra requested that Rama accompany him because he wanted to first ensure that Rama was indeed the savior, before handing the weapons over to him.

Vishwamitra and the young Rama set off for the forest along with Lakshman, who insisted on accompanying his beloved brother. They journeyed for many days and every time they stopped to rest awhile, Vishwamitra took the opportunity to discuss the sacred weapons with Rama. They continued uneventfully on the journey until they reached the foot of a dark and demonic forest filled with demons of prey.

Tataka or Taraka

Tataka was an enormous she-demon and mother of Marich, who terrorized the forest. Rama, Lakshmana and Vishwamitra entered the forest and with each step they kept going deeper and deeper until suddenly the monstrous Tataka appeared before them. She was huge, repulsive, and wore a necklace of skulls around her neck. When she accosted Rama and Lakshman, she sent off a shower of stones hurtling towards them, which they combated with arrows. Vishwamitra told Rama to “be safe, and be victorious”. This, in a way, was an ambiguous order, as Rama was not directly commanded to kill her. Had he received a direct order to kill her, he would have done so since his father had told him that he was to obey Vishwamitra at all times.

Although Rama still could have killed her using his own discretion, he was faced with an enigma since she was female and Rama’s principles would not allow him to kill a female. Thus, Rama shot two arrows, cutting off her arms. Tataka then started shrieking and wailing loudly, causing Lakshman to fire arrows and cut off her nose and ears. By way of sorcery she then became invisible and continued assailing the three with huge boulders, but Rama and Lakshmana combated the boulders with their arrows, causing the boulders to split into harmless stones. Vishwamitra then told Rama to set aside his compassion and clearly commanded him to kill her before the sun sets since after dusk and until dawn demons are invincible. Then Rama, guided by sound alone, killed her with a powerful arrow. Vishwamitra and the Gods in heaven were overjoyed and the forest, free from Tataka’s hold, became a beautiful and heavenly abode once again.

Mareech and Subahu

After Rama slayed Tataka, Vishwamitra handed the divine weapons over to Rama. They then continued on their journey. A few days later they came across another picturesque forest, which is haunted by Mareech, Subahu and other demons. They guarded Vishwamitra as he performed his rituals for six days and six nights, until the demons arrived to disturb the rituals. Rama shot Mareech with the Manava missile, hurling him a distance of a hundred ‘yojans’, into the ocean. However, he did not kill Mareech. (Mareech then later on tries to dissuade Ravana from his plans of kidnapping Sita, and agrees to assume the form of a deer to lure Rama away from Sita.) Rama killed Subahu, who was the more vicious of the demons and proceed to destroy the accompanying rakshasas. By doing this Rama endeared himself to all the Sadhus, who were now free to perform their rituals without any hindrances by the demons.

After the death of the demons the sages were free to perform their prayers without any disturbance. Rama and Lakshman stayed on in the forest under the tutelage of Vishwamitra, who taught them the Vedas and other scriptures. Time passed by, and then one day Vishwamitra received an invitation from King Janak, ruler of Janakpur, to attend the Swayamvar (choosing of groom) ceremony of his daughter, Sita. Kings, princes and sages from all over were invited to attend the ceremony to win the hand of the beautiful princess. Vishwamitra asked Rama and Lakshman to accompany him, and so the three set out for Janakpur.

On the way to Janakpur they passed by a deserted cottage besides which lay the stone statue of Ahilya. According to legend, Ahilya was the wife of the learned Gautam Rishi. Ahilya was thought to be the most beautiful woman on earth, and hearing of her beauty, Lord Indira disguised himself as her husband and entered the home when Gautam had gone to bathe in the holy river, and seduced her. When Indira was leaving the hut after the seduction, he was met by Gautam who had guessed what had happened. So enraged was he that he cursed Indira by turning him into a eunuch, and he turned his wife into stone. He then added that she would be turned to a woman when the son of Dashrath touches her statue with his foot.

Rama then touched the stone statue with his foot and released Ahilya from her curse, turning her into a woman again. Ahilya thanked him and offered her prayers.

They proceeded onwards, stopping to take a dip in the holy river Ganga, and finally reached the beautiful kingdom of Janakpur. King Janak himself welcomed the sage. Vishwamitra introduced Rama and Lakshman to the King as the brave and divine sons of King Dashrath. Later on the brothers set out to visit the kingdom when they chanced upon Sita in a temple. Rama was immediately enraptured by her beauty, and Sita, in turn, fell in love with Rama. She prayed that she be wed to Rama.

Soon, the Swayamvara ceremony was held. A large, heavy bow of Lord Shiva, was placed in the center of the swayamvara hall, and Lord Janak announced that the person who managed to string the bow would win the hand of the fair Sita. The ceremony was open to all, and one by one every man in the room tried his hand at stringing the bow, but none of them could even lift it. Then all the kings collectively tried to lift the bow, but they still did not succeed. King Janak was now confronted with the prospect of Sita remaining unmarried, and he was overwhelmed with worry. Finally, it was Lord Rama’s turn. As he walked towards the bow, and Sita’s heart sank, sure that if such rugged and brave Kings could not even lift the bow, then the young and slender Rama would surely fail to do so as well. But Rama said a prayer and in one breath lifted the bow, strung it, and broke it into two with a thundering sound. Everyone was astounded and immediately broke into cheers. Sita walked up to Lord Rama and placed a garland around his neck. And so, they were wed.

Many years ago, when Dashrath was on the battlefield, Kaikayee had saved his life. As a result, Dashrath had granted her two boons, and Kaikayee had stated that she would ask that the boons be granted when the time arose. Manthara reminded Kaikayee of the boons that she was to ask of Dashrath, and told her that the time to demand that Dashrath fulfill his promise had arrived. She counseled Kaikayee to ask that Bharat be crowned King, and that Rama be banished from the kingdom for a period no less than fourteen years.

Kaikayee then removed all her jewellery, lay down on the floor in her bedroom, and called for her husband. When Dashrath heard that Kaikayee was in a bad temper, he went to console her and inquire what the matter was. Seeing Kaikayee in this state greatly disturbed him and he rushed by her side to find out what he can do for her. Kaikayee then asked him if he remembered the two boons he had granted her, and would he be willing to fulfill them. The unsuspecting King answered that he certainly would. Kaikayee then asked for Bharat’s coronation, and demanded that Rama be exiled to the forest in the guise of a hermit.

Hearing this, King Dashrath almost passed out with pain. He then begged Kaikayee to ask for anything else, but not to be so harsh as to send his beloved son away to the forest for fourteen years! Dashrath even offered to give up his life instead, but to spare Rama. He said he loved all his sons equally, and the only reason he was crowing Rama king was because he was the eldest. But if it meant so much to Kaikayee, he would happily crown Bharat king. Rama had no greed for the throne, and he would not care if he was not made king! He thus pleaded with Kaikayee not to demand that Rama be sent into exile. However, Kaikayee was unperturbed, and stated that if Rama was not banished before dawn, Dashrath would have to face up to the fact that he had broken his promise, and Kaikayee would take her life.

King Dashrath was a man of his word, and he had to keep his promise even if it was tearing him apart. He then summoned Rama to Kaikayee’s chambers. When Rama arrived, he saw his father lying down on the floor, passed out. When he asked Kaikayee what the matter was, Kaikayee told Rama about the two boons, and the demands she had made. Rama stated that nothing would give him more joy than to pass the chance to be King to Bharat, and added that he would willingly go into exile and uphold his father’s promise.

Rama then broke the news to his mother Kaushalya, who was heartbroken, and to Sita, who insisted on accompanying him. Rama tried to dissuade her, but she refused to change her mind, saying that a wife’s place is by her husband. Lakshman too insisted on accompanying his elder brother. So, early next morning, before the break of dawn, Rama, Lakshman and Sita left Ayodhya after a tearful and shocked farewell.

When Rama, Lakshman and Sita were leaving for the forest, a broken-hearted Dashrath pleaded with Rama not to honour the promise he had made to Kaikayee and to refuse to go into exile. Rama said that it was his duty as a son to honour a promise made by his father, and that he would never let his father break his word. This shows the importance a promise carried, and how a person with a high moral character would suffer anything, but would not break it. Kaushalya then pleaded with Rama to let her join him, but Rama refused, and said that a wife should stay with her husband. He asked his mother to look after his father who was broken-hearted and would need her by his side at this time.

Along with Dashrath, the citizens of Ayodhya too pleaded with Rama not to leave, and when Rama did not relent, they stated that they too would accompany Rama into exile for fourteen years, and would live with him in the forest. Rama tried to talk them out of it, but they refused to listen and followed him along with cries of "Dhik twam Dashratham", or "Shame on you, Dashrath!"

This shows the freedom and the power of the public in that era, and shows that democracy existed in its own form centuries ago in India. No major decision was ever taken without first consulting with the people and courtiers. Even when Dashrath made the decision of crowning Rama king, he made the decision in consultation with his ministers and courtiers, and the decision had the hearty approval of his subjects.

Thus shouting slogans against Dashrath and declaring their love for Rama, the people of Ayodhya followed Rama, Lakshman and Sita out of the boundaries of Ayodhya. When night fell, the procession halted to take a rest. Rama, Lakshman, Sita and Sumant, who was escorting the three to the forest, pretended to be asleep. Seeing them sleep, the people too decided to call it a night and soon fell into deep slumber. Rama, Lakshman, Sita and Sumant then quietly slipped out. They kept on going until they reached the banks of a river. They approached a boatman, who recognised them immediately. He begged Rama to wash his feet before stepping into the boat, saying, "When you touched a stone with the dust of your feet, it turned into a woman! (Ahilya). My boat is simple, and made of wood. If it turns into a woman, what will I do to earn a living?"

Rama willingly obliged, washed his feet and stepped into the boat. Sumant took their leave at this stage, and the three crossed the river. When they reached the other side, Rama was distraught since he had no means to repay the boatman. The boatman stated that simply giving him the opportunity to serve Rama was payment enough.

It needs to be remembered that the Ramayana was written by various people, and the two most prominent versions are by Valmiki and by Tulsidas. Valmiki wrote of Rama as a human being and a ruler much loved by his people, while Tulsidas wrote of him as a God, to be worshiped.

After crossing the river Ganges, Rama, Lakshman and Sita disembarked. Sumant had departed in grief, after requesting them to return with him to Ayodhya as per Dashrath’s pleas. The three were now accompanied by Nishadraj. Nishadraj had welcomed them into his home the previous night, but Rama had refused to enter, saying that he was in exile and was to live like a hermit. The three then changed into ascetic robes, and took leave of Sumant before crossing the river. Rama requested Nishadraj to go back as well, but Nishadraj refused, requesting Rama to let him stay with them at least for a few days, to help him through his journey in the forest. Rama agreed.

The four of them carried on until they reached the dwellings of Sage Bharadwaj. Sage Bharadwaj was a renowned rishi and had a multitude of followers, who would visit his ashram to hear his talks. He was also a great devotee of Lord Vishnu. When Rama came to visit him, the sage too tried to persuade Rama to return to Ayodhya, but Rama again stated that he would not do so. Sage Bharadwaj’s followers all came to pay their respects to Rama.

Rama spent the night at the ashram, and the next morning sought the sage’s permission to leave. Bharadwaj’s followers too insisted on accompanying Rama through the forest! Bharadwaj sent four of his followers to accompany and look after Rama, and gave Rama his blessings.

The party then journeyed for a while longer, until finally Rama requested them all to return to their homes. He also took leave of Nishadraj, who departed unwillingly. The three of them then set off on their own.

In the meanwhile, as Dashrath lay in bed in Ayodhya calling out to his son to come back to him, he remembered an incident that had happened many many years ago, and realised that he was about to breathe his last, pining for his son in the same manner as was foretold. And true enough, when Sumant returned to Ayodhya, Dashrath had passed away.

The Curse

Many years ago, King Dashrath had gone deer hunting in the forest. He saw something move that he mistook to be a deer, and fired an arrow. To his dismay, he heard a human voice cry out in pain. Dashrath rushed to the spot and saw a young lad, Shravan Kumar, lying on the ground, badly wounded and bleeding. Shravan then told Dashrath that he had been taking water to his parents, who were old and blind, and he requested that Dashrath deliver the water to his parents and give them the news that their son was no more. So saying, Shravan Kumar passed away.

A grief-stricken Dashrath then took the water to the blind parents, who had been waiting for the return of their son. He broke the news to them, and begged them for forgiveness. The heartbroken parents then told Dashrath that just as they will now die pining for their son, so too will Dashrath lose the son he loves most, and will die pining for him.

Dashrath’s passing away sent waves of shock throughout the kingdom of Ayodhya. Bharat, who was in Rajagriha visiting his maternal grandparents along with Shatrughan, was sent for.

Bharat too had started feeling restless and wanted to return to Ayodhya. He had had a bad dream, which had upset him greatly. His friends tried to cheer him up and enquired about the dream. Bharat answered that in his dream he saw his father fall from the top of a mountain into a pool defiled by cow dung. Dashrath then started laughing and drinking oil. After this, Bharath also saw an ocean dry up, the moon crash on the ground, mountains vanish into dust and other bad omens in his dream. He thus had a strong feeling that something was not quite right. The charioteer and messengers then arrived to take the brothers back to Ayodhya, but they had been given strict instructions not to convey the bad news to Bharat.

As the brothers neared the kingdom, Bharat noticed that the city was very quiet and gloomy. They reached the palace and Bharat anxiously looks for his father. Upon being unable to find it, he seeks out Kaikayee. When Kaikayee sees her beloved son, she runs to him and embraces him. She enquires after her parents and her brother, and Bharat informs her that all were well.

Bharat then enquires after Dashrath, and Kaikayee very slyly tries to disguise the tragedy by pretending as though she is conveying good news. She lets him know delightfully that Dashrath has passed away, as all people do, and that Bharat will now rule Ayodhya. Bharat, who loved his father deeply, was gripped by grief and fell to the ground in pain and shock. He then asked where his brothers Rama and Lakshman were, and Kaikayee said that they had been banished to the forest. Hearing this, Bharat was greatly surprised, as he could not imagine his brothers wronging anyone – so why would they be punished in this manner. Kaikayee then told Bharat everything, and added that she had done it all for Bharat. She stated that Bharat should rule with courage, and the kingdom and citizens of Ayodhya were dependent on him now.

Kaikayee’s words shocked Bharat, and he now looked at her as he had never seen her before, with hatred in his eyes. He expressed grief at her behaviour and her greed, and blamed her for the death of his father, and added that he would never rule Ayodhya. He would instead go to the forest, bring back his brothers, and would serve as their attendant. Bharat and Shatrughan then go to meet Kaushalya, who, faint with grief, falls down as they approach her. Seeing her in this state move both brothers to tears. They rush to help her up, but she shuns them. She looks at Bharat with distrust in her eyes, and tells him that the kingdom he so desired was now his. Her harsh words pierced Bharat’s soul, and he fell to her feet swearing that he knew absolutely nothing about any of this, and that to blame him would be grave injustice. He then harshly cursed the person who was responsible for all that had happened, and begged Kaushalya to accept him as her son. Kaushalya, seeing Bharat’s genuine pain, embraced him. Bharat, submerged by grief, lost consciousness.

Bharat refuses to accept the throne, and decides instead to leave for Chitrakoot, meet with Rama, and persuade him to return.

Soon after Bharat had returned and overcome the shock of his father’s death, the ministers of Ayodhya, in consultation with sages like Vashishta and Vamdeo, decided it was time Bharat took over the throne. After all, no kingdom should remain without a ruler indefinitely, and Bharat was a wise, able administrator. Furthermore, it had been decreed by Dashrath that Bharat be crowned king, and his wishes should be honoured.

When the sages approached Bharat and requested him to agree to be crowned King, Bharat was very hesitant. All tried to persuade him by telling him that this was his father’s wish, and that his brothers would be very happy indeed to know that Ayodhya was in able hands and Bharat was the ruler. Kaushalaya too requested Bharat to accept the crown, and gave her heartfelt blessings to her son who had done no wrong.

Bharat, however, was deeply unhappy, and had a burning desire to meet Rama. He was not keen on ruling Ayodhya and strongly felt that Rama was the rightful ruler. He was determined to bring Rama back to Ayodhya, and declared that he would leave for Chitrakoot the next morning.

Everyone heartily approved of Bharat’s decision to visit his brothers at Chitrakoot. The ministers immediately started making preparations, on Bharat’s orders, for the coronation ceremony. Bharat had decided that he would crown Rama as King and would bring him back to rule Ayodhya.

The next morning an entire procession departed with Bharat. Kaushalya arranged for chariots for all the members of the procession, as she felt that they were too weak to travel on foot. The people of Ayodhya were already very weak due to being depressed by Rama’s leaving, and continuous fasting as they prayed for his safe and quick return.

The procession carried on for hours, and when they reached the river Ganga, Nishadraj heard of Bharat’s arrival and was disturbed by the news. If Bharat wanted to meet Rama, why did he need to be accompanied by so many others? His doubts lead him to believe that Bharat probably wanted to kill his brothers so he could rule Ayodhya in peace for the rest of his life. He then commanded his troops to remain on alert and be ready to battle in case need arises, and went onward to greet the procession. He introduced himself as a friend of Shri Rama.

When Bharat realized that this was his beloved brother’s friend, he jumped down from his chariot and embraced Nishadraj. Seeing the pure love for Rama in Bharat’s eyes, Nishadraj immediately realized that Bharat was indeed going to persuade Rama to return to Ayodhya and not to kill him. Then Bharat and the procession stayed the night as guests of Nishadraj, and crossed the Ganges the next morning. The procession continued onwards until it reached the hermitage of Sage Bhardwaj. The wise sage spoke to Bharat and advised him not to feel guilty about what had happened. He reassured Bharat that he was not to blame. Even if Bharat had accepted the throne, it would be entirely understandable as it was the command of his father. Bharat’s love for Rama was no doubt very deep, and the sage stressed that just as he felt blessed to have met Rama, so also he felt doubly blessed on meeting Bharat.

Bharat meets Rama and Chitrakoots and begs him to return to Ayodhya. Rama refuses, and Bharat returns dejected – but not without Rama’s sandals!.

While Bharat was making his way towards Chitrakoot, Rama was very disturbed about something. Sita had earlier said to him that she had seen Bharat in her dream, and he was on his way to meet Rama. But instead of feeling joy at the possibility of being reunited with his brother, Rama was overwhelmed with sadness as he had a strong feeling that something very inauspicious was about to unfold.

Before long, a cloud of dust emerged on the horizon. As everybody was wondering who could be arriving, the nearby tribals informed Rama, Lakshman and the holy men that Bharat was arriving with an army. Lakshman was immediately apprehensive when he heard this. He feared that Rama’s premonition was coming true, and Bharat had arrived with his army to kill Rama. This infuriated him, and he stated that Bharat would have to kill him first before he could lay a hand on his elder brother.

Rama however knew that Bharat would never have such evil intentions, and he pacified Lakshman.

True enough, Bharat had left the army behind and had come to meet Rama, accompanied only by Shatrughan.

The brothers were overcome with joy when they met, and they embraced. Then Rama and Lakshman were informed of the death of their father, and this deeply saddened them. Rama was devastated when he learnt that his father had died because he could not bear to be separated from his beloved son.

Bharat and Shatrughan then tried to pursuade Rama to return with them to Ayodhya. Bharat told Rama that he had brought with him the crown and everything else that was needed for the coronation ceremony. He begged Rama to agree to be crowned King. Rama however stated that he was honour bound to fulfill the promise made by his father, and could not return to Ayodhya.

Bharat stayed with Rama in Chitrakoot for five days. In the meantime Kaushalya, Kaykaiyee and Sumitra too reached Chitrakoot. Kaikayee then begged Rama for forgiveness, and said that she was ashamed of what she had done. Rama and the other sages tried to assuage her guilt, and Rama said that he bore no ill will for her in any respect. He loved her as a son loves his mother, and will certainly return to Ayodhya, but only after fourteen years of exile – which he will happily bear for his father.

Then Sita’s parents, Janak and Sunaina arrived to meet their daughter and son-in-law, and to request them to return to their kingdom. They were saddened when they saw Sita dressed as a hermit, but were proud of her strength.

Some days later everyone who had come to meet Rama, Lakshman and Sita, returned. On his return Bharat refused to sit on the throne or live in the palace. He instead started living in a small hut near Nandigrama, in the guise of a sage. He slept on a mat made of grass and ate only food that he could grow – refusing luxuries that his brother no longer had access to. Bharat had also brought Rama’s sandals with him, which he placed on the throne. He worshiped the sandals everyday, and ruled on behalf of Rama, waiting and praying for his elder brother’s safe return.

After Bharat returned to Ayodhya and taken charge of the kingdom under Rama's name and blessings, Rama decided to move on from Chitrakoot.

Now that Bharat had returned to Ayodhya and taken charge of the kingdom under Rama's name and blessings, Rama started feeling restless and weighed down with a profound sadness caused by the departure of the brother he loved so dearly and by the death of his father. He therefore decided to move on from Chitrakoot, to the hermitage of Sage Atri.

When they reached the hermitage of Sage Atri, the sage welcomed them warmly. He then made them meet his wife, Anasuya, a deeply devout woman. Apparently, many years ago, when a drought had burnt the earth and life around the forest was about to perish, Anasuya, with her deep devotion, caused the Ganga to change course and flow through the forest, thus bringing an end to the drought.

Sita found in Anasuya a wise friend and advisor. Sita spoke about the Swayamvara ceremony and her love for Rama, and Anasuya spoke to her about chastity and duties of a wife. Anasuya then presented Sita with celestial gifts which included attire that would never get soiled or dirty.

A while later, Rama, Lakshman and Sita took leave of Sage Atri and Anasuya, and continued onward with their journey. Before long they were assaulted by the demon Viradh, who attempted to kidnap Sita. However the demon was no match for Rama and Lakshman, who soon vanquished him.

They then reached the hermitage of Sage Sarbhang. The Sages would often renounce their lives after they reached a certain stage of fulfillment. Sage Sarbhang too wished to leave for the heavenly abode, but when he heard that Rama would be passing by, the Sage decided to wait until he met Rama. He was thus greatly moved by Rama's presence, and stated that he would like to leave this world in the presence of Rama. Sage Sarbhang then sat on a funeral pyre, lit it with the help of his yogic powers, and was soon engulfed by the flames.

As they carried on with their journey, they continued making the acquaintances of various sadhus and ascetics who had been dwelling in the forest, and who would often accompany them for a short distance. Soon they reached a place, which, to Rama's dismay, had heaps of human bones scattered for miles to see. This sight greatly upset the three of them, and Rama asked the sages what this meant. They sages replied that these were the bones of sadhus who would perform yagyas here. These yagyas greatly displeased the demons, who would attack the sadhus and kill them. This news angered Rama, and he vowed that he would not leave this place until he had eliminated all the demons. However Rama knew that he would need help in order to kill the demons, as he would not be able to do so on his own. He decided to seek out Sage Agastya to help him in his conquest.

When Sage Agastya heard that Rama had come to meet him, he was very happy. Rama and Agastya greeted each other very warmly. Rama then told Agastya that he wished to kill the demons, and would need Agastya to tell him how to go about it.

Rama, Lakshman and Sita set up a cottage in the forest of Dandaka, and Rama vows to rid it of demons.

After Rama greets Sage Agastya, he asks him about the demons, and what he can do to help eliminate them. Agastya first advises Rama to go to Panchavati and rid the forest of the curse that had been afflicted on it many years ago by the sage Gautam.

The Curse

Many years ago, famine struck the Panchavati area, which was located in the forest of DANDAKARANYA. The rishis dwelling there went to Sage Gautam for help, and asked him to accommodate them until the famine passed. Sage Gautam agreed, and with his powers he gave them all they needed. Then, many months later, when the famine had subsided, the sages stated that they would like to return to DANDAKARANYA, but Gautam hesitated to give them permission to leave his hermitage. The rishis were thus a little discontented, and taking advantages of this, some pseudo-rishis, intent on harming the repute of Gautam, came up with a plan. They found an old cow which was on the verge of death, and sent it into the hermitage of Gautam rishi. The rishi tried to drive out the cow, but it didn’t pay heed, and when the cow was about to eat a flower, Gautam gave it a shove with his hand. As soon as the cow was shoved in this manner, it dropped dead. Suddenly the rishis stormed into his hermitage and cried out in horror. The fake rishis made a big hue and cry about how Gautam had killed a cow. They condemned him for the sin of go-hathya, and stormed out of the hermitage.

Gautam then, with his powers of meditation, sought to find out if the cow had died an untimely death at his hands, or if the cow’s time was indeed up. Meditation revealed to him the trick the pseudo-sadhus had played on him, and he was truly angered and disgusted by their behaviour. As a result, he cursed the forest of DANDAKARANYA, stating that the forest will be the haunt of low-life, demonic rakshasas, will remain barren, and not a leaf will grow until Rama sets foot into the forest.

Another curse too added to the wretchedness of the region. The king of the region, Danda, violated the chastity of the daughter of Bhrgu, his own guru. When Bhrgu heard from his daughter what had happened, he was filled with fury and flooded the region with dust and mud.

Thus, DANDAKARANYA was twice cursed, and it was up to Rama to set things right in this wretched land.

Rama thus, under the guidance of Sage Agasthya, decided to set up an abode in the dry but dense wooded area of Dandaka. As soon as Rama, Laskhman and Sita set foot in the forest, trees started to sprout leaves, the forest suddenly started turning green in front of their eyes and flowers started sprouting in every corner. They arrived at Panchavati, and found a spot by the banks of the river Godavari where they decided to put up a home. When Rama and Lakshman had started building the cottage, the old Eagle Jatayu flew down to pay his respects.

It is from here that the story of the Ramayana takes a turn, and sets the battle between Rama and Ravana into motion.

Rama, Lakshman and Sita set up a small mud hut with a thatched roof in Panchavati, and started dwelling there. They lived happily, with Lakshman lovingly looking after every need of Rama and Sita.

Early one morning, when the three of them were on their way to the Godavari for a bath, Lakshman started reminiscing about Bharat. He missed his brothers deeply, and was upset that Bharat had denied himself the comforts of the palace and was living a life of austerity. “How could such a cruel woman like Kaikayee bear such a noble son?” he wondered aloud, but Rama stopped him from condemning Kaikayee any further. They reached the river, bathed, offered their morning prayers, and started walking back to their ashram, reminiscing about the past.

While they were thus walking in the forest, Ravana’s sister, Soorpanakha, was also wandering around. As soon as her eyes fell on the handsome Rama, she fell in love with him. Although Soorpanakha was a demoness and was horribly ugly, with her powers she transformed herself into a beautiful young woman and approached Rama.

She asked him who he was and what he was doing in the forest. Rama stated that he was the son of King Dashratha, and was in the forest to fulfill his duty, with his brother Lakshman and wife, Sita. Soorpanakha then introduced herself stating that she was the sister of Ravana. She added that her brothers Kumbhkaran and Vibheeshan were also renowned warriors, while her other two brothers, Khara and Dooshan reigned over the Pnachvati area and everyone was afraid of them and of her. She then looked at Sita and said, “This little girl is not worthy of you. You need a real woman, someone like me.” She then went on to tell Rama that she fell in love with him the minute she saw him, and asked him if he would consider accepting her as his wife.

This ‘proposal’ amused Rama, and he smilingly turned it down stating that he was a one-woman man. “Why don’t you ask my brother Lakshman if he would like to be your husband. He is not married,” stated Rama, teasingly.

Soorpanakha then turned towards Lakshman, who she also found to be exceedingly handsome, and asked him to accept her as his wife. Lakshman stated that he was but a slave to Rama. “Why would you want a slave when you could have the master?” Lakshman added that Rama could easily have two wives, so she should go back and insist that he accept her.

Soorpanakha then went back to Rama, who once again turned her down. By now, she was angered, and when she saw Sita besides Rama, she declared that it was Sita’s fault Rama could not be hers. She then assumed her original demonic form and advanced towards Sita. Sita was terrified when she saw this huge rakshasi advancing towards her, and called for help. Rama instantly shielded Sita while Lakshman attacked Soorpanakha and cut off her ears and nose. Soorpanakha ran wailing with pain into the forest.
[/tscii:47f8be7dc4]

Surya

7th June 2005, 10:27 PM

Oh ok, I had the Chronology wrong. Thanks for both the posts Raghu Ji!! :D :D

aravindhan

8th June 2005, 02:48 AM

The discussion here on Sita's fire ordeal seems to be entirely based on the Valmiki Ramayana. In the Kamba Ramayana, the scene is painted very differently - to me, it seems that the nature of Sita's ordeal is radically transformed from being a demonstration of her purity to the public to being a test of Rama's virtue as an avatar of god.

The first major difference is the dialogue between Sita and Rama. In the Valmiki Ramayana, Sita responds to Rama's accusation by bursting into tears and begging him to believe that she is pure and not like lowly common women. But Rama refuses to relent, and she then declares that if he suspects her conduct, she would rather die, and she proceeds to ask Lakshmana to light a fire, into which she throws herself.

In the Kamba Ramayana, this is turned on its head. Rama's accusations are much more bitter. He does not just accuse Sita of unchastity, he goes on to say that by her acts, she has single-handedly caused womanhood (பெண்மை), greatness (பெருமை), nobility (பிறப்பு) and கற்பு to perish, like the glory of a king who has abandoned generosity (வண்மை):

பெண்மையும், பெருமையும், பிறப்பும், கற்பு எனும்
திண்மையும், ஒழுக்கமும், தெளிவும், சீர்மையும்,
உண்மையும், நீ எனும் ஒருத்தி தோன்றலால்,
வண்மை இல் மன்னவன் புகழின், மாய்ந்தவால்.

He then says that any truly noble woman would have restrained her senses and clothed herself with morality; and if blame had befallen her, she would cleanse it with her life, if needed.

அடைப்பர், ஐம் புலன்களை; ஒழுக்கம் ஆணியாச்
சடைப் பரம் புனைந்து, ஒளிர் தகையின் மா தவம்
படைப்பர்; வந்து இடை ஒரு பழி வந்தால், அது
துடைப்பர், தம் உயிரொடும்-குலத்தின் தோகைமார்.

There is no point going on. Her acts beggar belief. The proper thing for her to do will be to die, or to leave and go away.

யாது யான் இயம்புவது? உணர்வை ஈடு அறச்
சேதியாநின்றது, உன் ஒழுக்கச் செய்தியால்;
சாதியால்; அன்று எனின், தக்கது ஓர் நெறி
போதியால் என்றனன் புலவர் புந்தியான்.

To this, Sita responds to Rama not with tears and lamentation, as in Valmiki, but with anger. She does not try to excuse herself; instead she throws his words back at him and accuses him of betrayal and coldness of heart. Her words are filled with fury and sarcasm. She speaks bitterly, and with righteous outrage. She says that she was a fool for protecting her chastity. All her suffering, all the care she took, all this now seems like lunacy (பித்து), an utter waste (அவம்), a mistake (பிழை), because Rama understands none of it:

எத்தவம், எந்நலம், என்ன கற்பு, நான்
இத்தனை காலமும் உழந்த ஈது எலாம்
பித்து எனல் ஆய், அவம் பிழைத்ததாம் அன்றே,
உத்தம! நீ மனத்து உணர்ந்திலாமையால்.

The universe knows that she has been chaste, that god on his lotus (பதுமத்தான்) lacked the capacity to sway her, naive idiot (பேதை) that she was. If her "all-seeing husband" chooses to impugn her conduct despite this, which god can teach him that he is wrong?

பார்க்கு எலாம் பத்தினி; பதுமத்தானுக்கும்
பேர்க்கல் ஆம் சிந்தையள் அல்லள், பேதையேன்;
ஆர்க்கு எலாம் கண்ணவன், அன்று என்றால், அது
தீர்க்கல் ஆம் தகையது தெய்வம் தேறுமோ?

Brahma, Siva and Vishnu, the embodiments of justice, can see everything as plainly as a nellikkay in the palm of their hand. But even they will not understand a woman's heart.

பங்கயத்து ஒருவனும், விடையின் பாகனும்,
சங்கு கைத் தாங்கிய தருமமூர்த்தியும்,
அங்கையின் நெல்லிபோல் அனைத்தும் நோக்கினும்,
மங்கையர் மன நிலை உணர வல்லரோ?

In growing anger, she says that as there is no-one she can turn to, nothing could be better than death. With a last, bitter "by your command" to Rama, she asks Lakshmana to light the pyre.

ஆதலின், புறத்து இனி யாருக்காக என்
கோது அறு தவத்தினைக் கூறிக் காட்டுகேன்?
சாதலின் சிறந்தது ஒன்று இல்லை; தக்கதே,
வேத! நின் பணி; அது விதியும் என்றனள்.

In Valmiki, when Sita jumps into the fire the gods appear and tell Rama that he is Vishnu and Sita is Lakshmi, that they were born to kill Ravana, and that he has now accomplished this. Sita emerges unscathed, proving her purity, and Rama assures her that he never doubted her, that it was in order to prove her purity to the world.

This is radically changed by Kambar. When Sita jumps into the fire, her கற்பு is so strong that, much like a flame burns cotton, she scorches the fire:

நீந்த அரும் புனலிடை நிவந்த தாமரை
ஏய்ந்த தன் கோயிலே எய்துவாள் எனப்
பாய்ந்தனள்; பாய்தலும் பாவின் பஞ்சு எனத்
தீந்தது அவ் எரி அவள் கற்பின் தீயினால்.

Far from protecting her from the fire as he does in Valmiki, Agni himself is forced to flee the fire, howling in distress, while Sita stands in the fire, unaffected by the flames:

அழுந்தின நங்கையை அங்கையால் சுமந்து
எழுந்தனன் அங்கி, வெந்து எரியும் மேனியான்,
தொழும் கரத் துணையினன், சுருதி ஞானத்தின்
கொழுந்தினைப் பூசலிட்டு அரற்றும் கொள்கையான்.

Agni then challenges Rama, and condemns Rama's actions in extremely strong terms: "Did you not hear the gods, the sages, all that moves, all that is still, in the three worlds, strike their eyes and cry out? Have you decided to destroy aram, and replace it with wrongdoing?"

தேவரும் முனிவரும், திரிவ நிற்பவும்,
மூவகை உலகமும், கண்கள் மோதி நின்று,
"ஆ!" எனல் கேட்கிலை; அறத்தை நீக்கி, வேறு
ஏவம் என்று ஒரு பொருள் யாண்டுக் கொண்டியோ?

Agni continues: "Will the rains continue to fall? Will the earth bear the burden without shattering? Will aram proceed along the straight path? Will the world survive, if she becomes angry? On her curse, even He who dwells on a flower will die."

பெய்யுமே மழை? புவி பிளப்பது அன்றியே
செய்யுமே, பொறை? அறம் நெறியில் செல்லுமே?
உய்யுமே உலகு இவள் உணர்வு சீறினால்?
வையுமேல், மலர்மிசை அயனும் மாயுமே.

Rama is thus forced to admit that he is wrong. "You are the indestructible witness", he says to Agni, "and you have also, in words that I cannot condemn, said that there is no fault on her. As she is blameless, I cannot cast her aside as I have done."

அழிப்பு இல சான்று நீ, உலகுக்கு; ஆதலால்,
இழிப்பு இல சொல்லி, நீ இவளை "யாதும் ஓர்
பழிப்பு இலள்" என்றனை; பழியும் இன்று; இனிக்
கழிப்பிலள் என்றனன் கருணை உள்ளத்தான்.

As you can see, this is a very different treatment of Sita. She does not try to excuse herself or appeal to Rama's feelings. Instead, she speaks to Rama as an equal, and flings his taunts and accusations right back at him (there is a striking parallel between the words she uses and the words he uses, but this post would become way too long if I started going into that). In the end, there is nothing she has had to prove - at the end of the scene, it is Rama who must ultimately bear the blame.

A few points:

- The repeated references to Sita's karpu, especially its juxtaposition with the imagery of fire, is clearly intended to call Kannagi in the Cilappadhikaram to mind. To make this even more explicit, Sita is at one stage called "pattini" - which is the name under which Kannagi was worshipped in ancient Tamil Nadu (and continues to be in Sri Lanka). This represents a strikingly different attitude to Sita - and to what her entry into the fire represents - than that of the Valmiki Ramayana.

- In Valmiki, the accusations of injustice against Rama are countered by a long self-justificatory speech where Rama insists that he never suspected Sita. This is not present in the Kamba Ramayana. No attempt is made to excuse Rama's actions, nor to counter-balance the strong condemnation of Agni's words. In fact, Rama is starkly silent after he admits that he has done wrong by Sita.

- Unlike the Valmiki Ramayana, it is only after Rama admits his error that the gods appear to tell him he is really Vishnu. It is only after that that "the time is right to tell Rama who he is".

From a literary perspective, these difference make a lot of sense. Kambar was writing within the Tamil devotional tradition. As anyone who's read the works of the azhwars or nayanmars knows, it is quite customary in Tamil devotional literature to criticise God - even condemn him - for letting his devotees suffer. Valmiki, however, was writing a religious epic within the Sanskritic tradition, where more deference was expected to be shown to the divine - and, indeed, the divine's favour was a devotee had to strive for and earn - unlike the Tamil tradition where the gods were seen as having something of a duty to ensure the welfare of the people, almost like the kings of the sangam literature. This entire section is replete with puram and akam imagery.

(This could also lead to a few other conclusions, but this forum probably isn't the best place to discuss them.)

Raghu

8th June 2005, 02:58 AM

aravindhan

8th June 2005, 03:13 AM

Is it really, the Ramayan series by Ramanand Saagar is based on Valmiki Munivar's Ramayana, and in this series it is NOT shown like you explained! :shock:
I think my summary is a fairly accurate account of what the Valmiki ramayana actually says. You can read an English translation here:
http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/rama/ry489.htm
The language is a little old-fashioned, but you get the general idea.

You did note that most of my post dealt with the Kamba ramayana, yes?

Ramanand Sagar based his account on the Valmiki Ramayana with a liberal admixture of Tulsidas, later devotional traditions and folklore from UP, and his own interpretations. It's not an accurate picturisation of the Valmiki Ramayana, and the Valmiki Ramayana itself is by no means the only version of the Ramayana around (and I don't think it should be treated as the most authoritative one either).

Surya

8th June 2005, 03:15 AM

WOW!!!! :D Aravindhan,
thanks for post! Very infomative! I had no idea about the "recalling Kannagi" phenomenon! But now thinking about it, it makes sense.

My take on the differences,
For people who belive this to have really happened like me, Valmiki wrote Ramayan in Thretha Yugam, which were "Facts"

Kambar wrote this in Kali Yugam, when the times have changed. The Role of women have changed. So I'd say that Kamba Ramayan is a bit more modernized, and kind of flows with the time, as opposed to Valmiki's Ramayan, which really happened. :)

Regards. 8)

Badri

8th June 2005, 05:25 AM

Thanks Aravindhan! That was a wonderful post and your efforts in comparing two versions of the epic is highly laudable.

Your insights into why these differences exist, it tems of the attitude the two poets have adopted towards Divinity is rare and refreshing!

Excellent job.

You are right about how the "agni pariksha" or "test of fire" is actually a misnomer. Rama never asked Sita to prove her chastity. Sita's jumping into the fire was not a test or trial, rather it was her response to the unjust accusation levelled against her. That she was not burnt and that she was proved chaste are after-thoughts, as it were.

Women ending their lives by the fire has another parallel in Sati immolating herself at her father Daksha's Yagna. Someone in fact had asked earlier on in this thread whether the controversial practice of Sati emerged from the Sita fire ritual. It actually owes its origin in the story of Sati, Shiva's wife, later reborn as Parvati. There again, a chaste wife who could not bear the insults thrown at her husband albeit in his absence believes life itself is not worth living.

The same thread runs through with Kannagi. Only here, Fire being called on to do her bidding, again by the power of her chastity. Interesting, isn't it? Perhaps it has to do with purity - both fire and chastity are supposed representatives of purity.

viggop

8th June 2005, 02:00 PM

Thanks for the Kamba Ramayanam post, Aravindhan.It was excellent

SRS

9th June 2005, 07:46 PM

[quote=aravindhan]The discussion here on Sita's fire ordeal seems to be entirely based on the Valmiki Ramayana. In the Kamba Ramayana, the scene is painted very differently - to me, it seems that the nature of Sita's ordeal is radically transformed from being a demonstration of her purity to the public to being a test of Rama's virtue as an avatar of god.

The first major difference is the dialogue between Sita and Rama. In the Valmiki Ramayana, Sita responds to Rama's accusation by bursting into tears and begging him to believe that she is pure and not like lowly common women. But Rama refuses to relent, and she then declares that if he suspects her conduct, she would rather die, and she proceeds to ask Lakshmana to light a fire, into which she throws herself.

So are you saying Ram did not believe Sita when she said she was still chaste? Is this the reason for her fire ordeal?

Idiappam

9th June 2005, 08:13 PM

Post deleted by moderator...

Raghu

9th June 2005, 08:43 PM

SRS,

NO NO Rama never doubted Sita's purity, it was done for the mundane crowd of Ayodhya

Thiru

9th June 2005, 09:00 PM

idiappam,

i've warned you already.. pls stay away from the thread if you dont like whats being discussed.. dont start using profanity and vulgar meaning in your posts... if not, I have no choice but to ban you...

SRS

9th June 2005, 10:18 PM

SRS,

NO NO Rama never doubted Sita's purity, it was done for the mundane crowd of Ayodhya

That is what I also like to believe. I don't know why the English translations don't have it as such. It is easy to misunderstand the motivations behind fire ordeal, as you see I have. Another question: did Ram and Sita know, from the time they were born, that they are incarnations of Vishnu & Lakshmi?

Rohit

9th June 2005, 11:13 PM

Another question: did Ram and Sita know, from the time they were born, that they are incarnations of Vishnu & Lakshmi?Obviously, this is a very bizarre question arising in the mind of a believer. If they didn’t know it, then who did and how would be even more bizarre. Wouldn't it?

aravindhan

9th June 2005, 11:53 PM

So are you saying Ram did not believe Sita when she said she was still chaste? Is this the reason for her fire ordeal?
It depends entirely on the perspective you adopt. If you look at the text as an infallible recording of true events, and on later traditions as providing accurate expansions of those events, then I suppose you would say he actually did believe Sita, and that he only pretended not to for appearance's sake. That is what the text of Valmiki and later tradition says (though Kambar takes a different view). If you're interested in studying the old Hindu epics from this perspective, I recommend you read Madhavacharya's commentary and summary of the Mahabharata and Ramayana, which comments on many instances of behaviour that seems troublesome, and attempts to find explanations for them.

I will be quite frank and say that I do not view the old Hindu legends in this way (although I am a practising Hindu). I do not believe that they depict events which were literally true, and I think that - taken as texts and literary pieces - they can tell us a lot about Indian society, religion and attitudes to God in the time and place when they was written. I also think that comparative studies of different versions of the same event can help us reconstruct what people actually believed in ancient times. Unfortunately, I do not think this forum is an appropriate place to take such a perspective, which is why I usually tend to stay out of these discussions.

Surya

10th June 2005, 12:20 AM

Another question: did Ram and Sita know, from the time they were born, that they are incarnations of Vishnu & Lakshmi?

They know subconciously, but they just don't realize it. Ram doesn't realize it until a rishi, Vishwamitrar, or Vashishtar I forget, tells him that he is the avatar of Vishnu.

What I was wondering was, could this have any connection with the normal man getting drowned in MAYA, and not realizing that he is a part of the Ultimate source. The Paramathma.

Rohit

10th June 2005, 12:31 AM

If they didn’t know it, then who did and how would be even more bizarre. Wouldn't it?
With the prevarication in the post above, my above quoted point gets precisely proved. :)

SRS

10th June 2005, 03:36 AM

[quote=SRS]So are you saying Ram did not believe Sita when she said she was still chaste? Is this the reason for her fire ordeal?

It depends entirely on the perspective you adopt. If you look at the text as an infallible recording of true events, and on later traditions as providing accurate expansions of those events, then I suppose you would say he actually did believe Sita, and that he only pretended not to for appearance's sake. That is what the text of Valmiki and later tradition says (though Kambar takes a different view). If you're interested in studying the old Hindu epics from this perspective, I recommend you read Madhavacharya's commentary and summary of the Mahabharata and Ramayana, which comments on many instances of behaviour that seems troublesome, and attempts to find explanations for them.

That is the problem. So many versions. I have even heard of one version where Sita is Ravanna's daughter; the deva whom he took by force left her near King Janaka's palace. And that this is why Ravanna never ravished her, even though he he himself was not aware of it. Literal meaning - well, there is much archeological evidence for this story. And also there are too many details which one would not normally find in simple fiction books. Mention of Arctic Circle, mention of Central Asian ppls, distance of 100 yojanas between India & Sri Lanka, mention of elephants, forests, in Northern Sri Lanka, and nagars of Jaffna, details of building materials used to construct Ramayana Bridge, use of flying aircraft, Ram being born in a real city, etc. So I do not think there is any reason to assume the actual occurence of Ramayana based on simple reading. It is easy to objectively prove such and such an event occured. For example, one could do a study to calculate the distance between Southern tip of India and northern tip of Sri Lanka, at the time of Ramayana (this distance would be considerably less than what it is today, due to drifting of continents since that time). Well, that is just one example. Also, do you not find it ironic that ppl of numerous faiths are waiting for a chosen one to come at the closing of the world? For them, it is the first and last yuga; for Hindus it is the tenth and last avitharam.

I will be quite frank and say that I do not view the old Hindu legends in this way (although I am a practising Hindu). I do not believe that they depict events which were literally true, and I think that - taken as texts and literary pieces - they can tell us a lot about Indian society, religion and attitudes to God in the time and place when they was written. I also think that comparative studies of different versions of the same event can help us reconstruct what people actually believed in ancient times. Unfortunately, I do not think this forum is an appropriate place to take such a perspective, which is why I usually tend to stay out of these discussions.

Okay, so Ram was pretending. I suppose this goes back to what Surya said earlier; he had to behave as a King, since that was his dharma. This is why I asked if Ram and Sita knew they are incarnations of Vishnu and Lakshmi as soon as they were born. If they had such knowledge, then of course Ram will never doubt Sita. Doubt is a consequence of maya. :D

Surya

10th June 2005, 03:39 AM

Nice!!! :clap: 8)

viggop

10th June 2005, 11:04 AM

I thought that Rama did not know till the last that he was an avatar of Vishnu.When was this told to him?and why?
Was there any change in Rama's behaviour after this was known to him?

Raghu

10th June 2005, 03:57 PM

I thought that Rama did not know till the last that he was an avatar of Vishnu.When was this told to him?and why?
Was there any change in Rama's behaviour after this was known to him?

Viggop,

U r Right, Rama never knew he was an avatar of Lord Vishnu, till the end, when he walks into that River!

aravindhan

10th June 2005, 05:06 PM

Raghu

10th June 2005, 06:11 PM

I thought that Rama did not know till the last that he was an avatar of Vishnu.When was this told to him?and why?
Was there any change in Rama's behaviour after this was known to him?
In the Valmiki Ramayana, Brahma tells him during Sita's fire ordeal that he is Vishnu and was born to defeat and kill Ravana. Again, you can read a translation here:
http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/rama/ry490.htm

Aravindan, Ramanand Saagar's Ramayan is based on Valmiki Munivar's version, but in this series, as far as I know, Lord Bhramha does not reveal at the point when Sita devi crosses the fire, but when Rama's time was up in the world, and when he goes to this riber(can not remember the name) along with residence of Ayodhya.

It's really confusing with different contradictions in each versions

viggop

10th June 2005, 07:26 PM

Raghu
the river is Sarayu.I think it is a tributary og Ganga in Ayodhya

aravindhan

10th June 2005, 08:29 PM

Aravindan, Ramanand Saagar's Ramayan is based on Valmiki Munivar's version, but in this series, as far as I know, Lord Bhramha does not reveal at the point when Sita devi crosses the fire, but when Rama's time was up in the world, and when he goes to this riber(can not remember the name) along with residence of Ayodhya.
Raghu, I think I explained that Ramanand Sagar's Ramayana is NOT entirely based on the Valmiki Ramayana, though people wrongly think it to be.

It's really confusing with different contradictions in each versions
If you're looking for consistency, I suppose it could be confusing. If you look at it as a collection of legends, as I do, the different versions should enrichen our view of the Rama-tradition.

For example, an Indonesian Ramayana legend has Manabaya (a son of Ravana born after he is killed by Rama) ressurect Meghananda, form a new army, and march against Ayodhya after Sita's exile. In this version, Sita is Ravana's daughter (a common theme in non-classical versions of the Rama-legend - there is a Kannada version where Ravana gives birth to her through a sneeze), and her sons refer to Manabaya as their "uncle", thus turning the impending war into a kinstrife, much like the Mahabharata.

Similarly, the Telugu folksongs collected in the Strila Ramayanapu Patalu and the Janapadageya Ramayanamu give an entirely new dimension to the main characters and events of the Ramayana. In one of these songs, Surpanaka decides to avenge herself on Rama and Sita, so she dresses herself as a female hermit, visits Sita and asks her to draw a picture of Ravana, which she then gives life. Sita and the others try their best to destroy the picture, but they are unable to. So Sita hides it under her bed, but Rama finds it and banishes her to the forest, despite being told by everyone exactly how the picture came to be there. As a result, Lava and Kusha are extremely hard on him when they eventually meet again.

And there are also Hindi works from the 17th century which clearly show that there was at some stage a very strong rasik-sampraday tradition for Rama in UP, followers of which used to believe in ras-lila from Rama, much like the ones for Krishna, but with the added twist that unlike Krishna, Rama was both a "maryada-purush" and a "lila-purush".

There are so many more examples. Rama-legends from the lower castes, for example, have some fairly constant themes running through them which differ from the classical Ramayanas quite considerably. Then there are the Jain legends, where it is Lakshmana, not Rama, who kills Ravana, and which link the Rama-legend to the Jain notion of the Vasudeva-Baladeva-Prativasudeva triad. I would go to the extent of saying that the attempt to find a "single" Rama-legend which we can then say represents what "really happened" is a relatively recent phenomenon.

Surya

10th June 2005, 10:12 PM

:shock: Quite interesting!!! :shock:

Raghu ji,
Which rishi is it that tells Ram that he is the avatar of Vishnu in the end? :)

viggop

11th June 2005, 11:02 AM

Surya

11th June 2005, 11:11 PM

WOW! well, Ramayana keeps changing in every Yuga. The version of ramayana that we know isn't exactly the version that ppl in the Dwapara yugam knew.

nirosha sen

12th June 2005, 07:12 AM

Also,the people in thailand believe that present day Bangkok is Ayodhya and Rama was born there.
Buddisht Jataka tales says that Rama and Sita were brother and sister and they married each other(much like the ancient pharoahs of Egypt who marry their sisters).So,there are different versions of Ramayana in India.

Mmm...possibly why they name all their kings as Rama the Something!! Wonder if they take Rama the I, as Sri Rama himself??

In Malay literature too, we have the Hikayat Ramayana which is acknowledged under their pre-Islamic literature. The Malays of the state of Kelantan, are renowned for their shadow play called Wayang Kulit, in which they enact the entire Ramayana as drama.

aravindhan

12th June 2005, 04:06 PM

Mmm...possibly why they name all their kings as Rama the Something!! Wonder if they take Rama the I, as Sri Rama himself??
No. Rama I was the founder of the present "Chakri" dynasty, King Buddhayodfa. He founded the dynasty in 1782 - basically, he was a victorious general who liberated Thailand from Burmese rule and then deposed the previous Thai king who had become a bit of a religious fanatic. The present king, HRH Bhumibol Adulyadej, is King Rama IX. I think the practice of taking the title "Rama" only started with King Rama VI, though.

viggop

16th June 2005, 04:32 PM

[tscii:5b450141c5]another copy,edit and paste.

Vishnu Puranam gives 9 lakshaNas of a bhakta.
============================================

(1) shravaNam: What is heard is shravaNam. A man gets the power to hear when he enters this world. That is the power he generally retains at the fag end of his life. That is why ‘karNa mantram’ is recited as the last one that a man hears. Tiruvalluvar points out the importance of hearing as ‘sEvattuL sElvam sEviccElvam’.

(2)kIrtanam: Next comes the reciting of the name. It is mentioned in divyaprabandham "tAncollal tan tannaikkIrtiTTa mAyan". It is said "JihvE kIrtaya kEshavam".

(3) smaraNam: smaraNam means thinking about the Lord.In divya prabandham it is pointed out as "manakkaDaluL vAzhavalla mAya manALa nambi".
(4) pada sEvanam:
(5) arccanai: tuLasi arccanai is generally preferable for Lord Krishna
(6) vandanam
(7)dAsyam
(8)sakhyam: Nammalvar says "annayAi attanAi yEnnai AnDiDum Ennappan Enakka igulAi".
(9) AtmanivEdanam

[/tscii:5b450141c5]

Raghu

16th June 2005, 05:02 PM

shall we discuss all the dharma & adharma performed by Lord rama

Dharma

1) Always Obedient to his elders
2) Always respected every one even 'Ravan'

Adharma

1) Killing Vali by shooting an arrow from behind

any others, this will be healthy discussion, I suppose!

viggop

16th June 2005, 08:09 PM

Sudhaama sir has written a detailed post on why Vaali had to be killed that way before in this topic,i think

F.S.Gandhi vandayar

21st June 2005, 12:41 PM

All epics were written and some additions made as sub-stories to propogate some ideology of the core of the subject.

There lies the story shall be taken for granted or not.

While discussing about Ramayana this core subject should be talked.

Unfortunately that is not done. Vague Kindness.brotherhood,pitiness and some of the natural behavious of human beings are only discussed.

Rather the core subject should be elaborated first.

These are called hindu epics. Then what does hindu mean ? Is that word available in these epics ?

What is the core ideology of all forms of hinduism ? Can we identify in these epics ?

Then the topic will be meaningful.

f.s.gandhi

viggop

24th June 2005, 11:28 AM

Got this from another website
===============================

There are some interesting twists in kamba Ramayana.One is kambar's treatment of bharatha.

Rama is about to leave to forest.He tells his mother kousalya that bharatha will rule the kingdom and Rama will leave to forest.What does kousalya say about bharatha?

"Muraimai endru ondru undu.Mummayin nirai gunathavan,Ninninum nallanal,kuraivu ilan...."

Meaning "Except the dharma that says 'elder should rule' there is nothing wrong in Bharatha becoming king.He is actually THREE TIMES BETTER THAN YOU(rama).He has no defeciencies...."

See the words that come out from the mouth of kousalya.She calls bharatha as '3 times better than Rama'.

kamban then magnifies bharatha even more.When Bharatha comes back and learns that Rama is in forest he becomes angry.He shouts at his mother kaikeyi and leaves to forest to call back Rama.There he meets guhan.Guha is doubtful that Bharatha has come to kill rama.But when he knows why Bharatha has come to forest he is dumbfounded.He hugs bharatha and with tears says "Ayiram Ramar Nin kel avaro,theriyim amma"

This means Guha says "Will thousand rama's equal you...I doubt it.."

Here Bharatha is elevated to be more than the glory of thousand Rama's.Rama is nothing but lord vishnu.But kambar elevates his devotee bharatha to 1000 times more than rama...

But kamban elevates bharatha even high.When Rama doesnt return after 14 years bharatha is about to jump in fire.Kousalya comes to prevent him.In tears kousalya says to bharatha "En il kodi Ramargal eninum annal nin arulukku arugu aveero?"

Meaning "Can even thousand crore Rama's can come close to your greatness?"

See the promotion kamban gives to Bharatha.First he is said to be more than 3 Rama's.Then he is equated to 1000 rama's.Then finally he is said to be higher than thousands of crores of Rama's.

Who is the hero?Rama or bharatha?Who is great God or his devotee?

Badri

27th June 2005, 07:52 AM

Note to all Participants of this thread:

This thread has been brought up again after intensive clean-up of all digressions on a trial basis. Kindly stick to the topic of discussing the story aspects of the epic. Do not unnecessarily deviate into the religous merits and demerits. No personal attacks on any hubber either. Violations will result in locking this thread.

viggop

27th June 2005, 09:56 AM

Dear Badri
Thanks a lot for restoring this thread.This thread discussed various aspects of Hindu religion like dharma and it'll be good for everyone to read and learn and follow dharma.
Please do take strict action against people who misuse forumhub and indulge in unwarranted attacks.

another copy and paste
========================

VALI VATHAI PADALAM:

See how Kamban treats the same incident.Vali is on floor.Blood is oozing from his body.He ses the arrow that hit him.What did he see in that arrow?

"mummai sal ulagukku ellam moola manthirathai,
mutrum thamaye thamakku nalgum thani perum pathathai,
thane immai ezumai noikkum marundhinai,
"Raman" enum semmai ser namam thannai kannil theriya kandan"

Meaning "Vali saw The base manthra of the world,the manthra that gives you to yourself,the manthra that is the medicine for all diseases in this birth and next 7 births-"Raman" inscribed in that arrow"

what a language game..what a devotion...

Then vali starts his abuse.How does vali start his abuse?

"Vaimayum marabum kathu man uyir thurandha vallal thooyavan maindhane
Nee bharathan mun thondrinaye,
Thaimayum andri natpum dharmamum thazuvi nindrai..."

"The son of the king dasaratha ...(who died for upholding dharma and tradition).
The one who is the elder brother of bharatha,
You uphold motherly love,dharma and friendship......"

(See how the 'abuse' starts.Rama is called as the upholder of motherly love,dharma and friendship.....)

Vali continues...

"Kulam ithu, kalvi ithu,kotram ithu,utru nindra nalam ithu,
puvanam moondrin nayagam unathu andro....
valam ithu,ivvulagam thangum vanmai ithu endral
thinmai alarmara cheyyalamo,arindhun ariyathavan pol...

Meaning 'You know what is kula dharma.You know what is governance.You know what is good and bad.You are the lord of three worlds.

If this is the valor that protects the world then you pretend to be the one who dont know anything,but you actually know everything.

"Ko iyal dharumam ungal kulathu uthithorkatku ellam
ovaiyathu elutha vanna uruvathoyi-udamai andro?
Aviyai,sanagan petra annathai,Amizthin vandha deviyai,
pirintha pinnai thigaithanai polum seigai?"

"Oh the one whose beauty cannot be even painted by anybody
Dharma belongs to whoever has born in your dynasty.
Did you do this because you were shocked after you lost
Your life(seetha),the swan like daughter of king janak,who came as amritha in your life?"

(vali lays down in ground.But he admires Rama's beauty here and calls him "Oviyathu elutha vanna uruvathoyi.."(one whose beauty cannot even be painted)

----------Then Rama and vali debate.Laxmana interferes and see how vali praises laxmana-----

"Thai ena uyirkku nalgi,dharmamum,thagavum,salbum,
Nee ena nindra nambi,..."

Meaning "The one who stood as mother to all living beings.You stood as dharma,good and benefit itself"

Finally vali dies after cazlling Rama as "Evu koor valiyal eithu,nai adiyanen
avi pom velaivai arivu thandhu arulinai,
moovar nee,muthalvan nee,mutrum nee,matrum nee,
paavam nee,dharmam nee,pagayum nee,uravumk nee..."

Meaning "You shot me and gave knolwedge to this dog(vali).You are the 3 gods,you are the primary one,you stand as sin and dharma,you stand as enemy and friend,you stand as everything.."

Never does an abuse flow from the mouth of vali.The worst he asks is "Is this dharma?Why did you do this?I might have done mistakes.Why did you not forgive me?You are powerful enough to win over a cyclone.Why did you attack me who is as powerless as a rabbit?..."

viggop

27th June 2005, 10:01 AM

Kambar beautifully narrates their meeting as follows

"kannodu kan inai kavvi,ondrai ondru unnavum,
nilaiperathu unarvum ondrida annalum nokkinan avalum nokkinal"

meaning "Their eyes met,held and ate one another.Their heart mixed with one another.He saw her,she also saw him"

I probably am not translating the beauty of the kamban's verse "annalum nokkinan avalum nokkinal" when I say "He saw,she also saw".This is the most famous verse of kamban.

What happened next?

"Nokkia nokku enum nuthikol vel inai,
akkiya mathukaiyyan thozil azndhana
veekiya kanai kazal veeran senganum
thakku anagu anayaval danathil thaithanave"

"karungadal palliyil kalavi neengipoi
pirindavar koodinal pesavum vendumo?"

"Seetha's look was like a spear.It went and hit Rama's shoulders.rama's look went and hit seetha's heart.These lovers earlier got seperated in vaikunta and met now.When seperated lovers meet,is it necessary that they talk to each other( to convey their love?No.Words are not necessary")

This "pirindavar koodinal pesavum vendumo" is yet another famous dialogue of kamban.

viggop

27th June 2005, 10:02 AM

Mukkur lakhsmi Narasimacharya writes about this in 'kurai ondrum illai' as follows.

"When lakshmi came out of the occean asuras and devas were stunned by her beauty.All wanted to marry her.But lakshmi gave a condition."I will marry the person who doesnt desire me"

Devas and Asuras couldnt even pretend that they did not desire her.Lakshmi took a garland and moved ahead.She went to vaikunta where the balck thirumeni was laying.She saw him,he saw her.She saw nothing in his face.She only saw mercy and vatsalya.

"Dont you desire me?" she asked.

"Who are you?" asked vishnu.

Immediatly she garlanded vishnu.Since he was girupamoorthy he accepted her immediatly.

--------------------------------------------

we always see this repeated.In every avathar it is lakshmi who falls in love.Vishnu doesnt fall in love so easily.He never proposes.He only accepts proposals.

In krishnavathar ,Rukmani falls into love on krishna without even seeing him.Her father arranges her marriage with another king and Rukmani writes the first 'love letter' in recorded history to krishna.What was written in that love letter?

"Hey krishna,in yagnas havis will be given to devas.Wont it be ludicrous if a fox comes and snatches away the havis given to Lord vishnu?Similiar will be the case if I marry somebody else.

I am the havis given to you the purusha simman.How can a fox take away what belongs to a lion?take me"

After this love letter krishna comes and takes away Rukmani.

Radha's case is even worse.She first hears the name krishna.She immediatly falls in love with that name.Then she sees a beautiful youngman who grazes cows.She falls in love with him too.Now she is confused.She is in love with two persons.But to complicate things more she hears a venuganam and falls in love with the person who played thye flute.

She cries to a friend of her saying that she is in love with 3 people at the same time.Her friend consoles her by saying all three are the same.Radha is relieved.

viggop

27th June 2005, 10:20 AM

Surrender:

The lines which I love in valmiki Ramayana are as follows.It was said by Rama to sugreeva.When veebeshna came to surrender to Rama,sugreeva suggested not to accept him.Now this is against the nature of lord Ram.He never lets down the people who surrender to him.He said as follows

"aanaya enam hari shreSTha dattam asya abhayam mayaa ||6-18-33
vibhiiSaNo vaa sugriiva yadi vaa raavaNaH svayam"

"He who surrenders to me saying "Rama I surrender to you, save me"- it becomes my duty to save him.This is my promise.I cannot take back this promise."

"raamasya vacanam shrutvaa sugriivaH plavaga iishvaraH ||6-18-34
pratyabhaaSata kaakutstham sauhaardena abhicoditaH"

"hey sugreeva,He surrendered to me.I dont see whether he is Ravana or veebeshna.It can be anybody,I dont care.Bring him to me"

-----------------------------------------------

How does kamban treat this incident?

Rama says

"Uadandavarku uthavan ayin,ullathu ondru iyan ayin,
adandavarku arulan ayin,aran enna am?Anmai enn am?"

He who doesnt help people who dont have anything,he who lets down people who surrender him-what sort of dharma he follows?Can he be even called as a male?

"ennai saran endru vazkindranai thurandha naal,Irandha naal"

"The day I let down the person who surrendered to me,it is the day of my death"

"Athalal 'abayam' endra poluthe abaya dhanam eethale kadapadu enbathu:iyambineer enpal vaitha kadhalon;Ini veru enna enna kadavathu en?kathiron maindha kothu ilathavanai neeye en vayin konarthi endran"

He who surrendered to me,it is my duty to save him.I cannot think otherwise,I have no option.Bring him to me"

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is always repeated by lord vishnu.He never lets down people who surrender to him,let it be any avathar,any situation,any condition..

He never forgot this under any situation.He never said that he was vishnu avathar anywhere.But when jatayu died,when rama was in full grief-he even forgot that grief and gave jatayu moksham,something which can be only done by parabhramman.His vratha made him to reveal his parabhramman nature then.Something which he never does in any other condition.He reveals his parabhramman nature once again when veebeshna came to surrender to him.

How did he give moksha to jatayu?valmiki says

yaa gatiH yaj~na shiilaanaam aahita agneH ca yaa gatiH |
a para aavartinaam yaa ca yaa ca bhuumi pradaayinaam ||
mayaa tvam samanuj~naato gacCha lokaan anuttamaan |
gR^idhra raaja mahaa sattva sa.nskR^itaH ca mayaa vraja

"hey, greatly king jatayu, through me you depart to the unexcelled moksha... you depart to those worlds that are destined for the noblest of jnanis..."

He did not say that he gave moksha even to his father dasaratha.But he gave it to a bird.

In mahabharatha when satyagi was about to be killed by purichravas he asks arjuna to cut purichravas' hand from behind.Arjuna hesistates since that isnt yuddha dharma.Krishna tells to him that satyagi has surrendered to him and is his devotee.He can never let satyagi down and if arjuna doesnt kill puruchravas,he will take sword and save satyagi breaking his vradha of not fighting in mahabharatha war.Arjuna then severs arm of purichravas.

He never has let down people who surrendered to him.

viggop

28th June 2005, 11:06 AM

This is what veebeshna says after he sees Ravana's body.Veebshna loved Ravana a lot.Seeing Ravana's body he cries and in grief calls seetha as a poison.Ofcourse even if amritha consumed in wrong way becomes a poison.

After all Ravana loved a goddess.We all love mother seetha.But Ravana's love was immoral form of love.He also made the mistake of loving seetha and hating Rama.God never accepts such love.

I have read about a saint who prayed only to lord shiva.He never worshipped mother uma.So he went to a temple and saw parvathi and parashiva together as idols.He wanted to go around paramashiva but not around parvathi.So he took the form of an insect and went into the gap between the two idols.But parvathi and paramashiva idols crushed him inbetween and he realized his mistake.He sung many songs on parvathi and then only he was released.

It is a mistake to love a god and hate his/her spouse.Dhaksha made this mistake.He loved his daughter parvathi but hated his son in law shiva.In the end he was destroyed by his daughter itself.

Surabathman was a staunch devotee of lord Shiva.But he hated shiva's son subramanya.So shiva did not accept his devotion.

Loving a devotee and hating god is also bad.Hiranya did that.He loved his son prahalad but hated god vishnu.He got punished.But even more worse is loving god and hating his devotee.God will atleast tolerate the reverse.He let hiranya free for a long time.But if somebody loves god,but hates the devotee of god,god will never tolerate it.Dhurvasa did that to ambareesha.He was chased by vishnu chakra and only when he apologized to ambareesha,he was spared.

Similiarly Ravana loves seetha,but hated Rama.He paid the price for it.Seetha herself became a posion for Ravana.kambar narrates this as

"sanaki enum peru nanju unnai kannal nokkave pokkiyathe uyir.."

Meaning "When janaki the great poison looked at you,you lost your life"

----------------------------------------------

The rakshasa wives of ravana came to see his dead body.They were jealous on seetha already.They were jealous since their husband was madly in love with seetha.Seeing his body they cried "Did you not forget seetha even now?"

"Aram tholaivura manathu adaindha seethayai
marandhilayo innum?Emakku un vailmalar thirandhilai,vizithilai
arulum seikilai,irandhanayo...?"

You took seetha against dharma.Did you forget her atleast now?You never spoke with us,showed love on us..did you die,oh king.."

----------------------------------------------------

mandothari comes to see the dead body of ravana.She says

"Kal irukkum malar koondhal sanakiyai manachirayil karandha kathal ul irukkum ena karuthi undal pugundhu thadavinavo oru vali"

"Did Rama's arrows enter your heart since it thought that your heart too had immense love on seetha?"

Badri

28th June 2005, 12:14 PM

I like the analysis you are doing, viggop! To add another angle, only a person who is capable of handling the poison should be dealing with it. When according to the story, the Halahala came out of the Ocean, only Shiva was in a position to tackle it.

Also, look at Vibheeshana's way of looking at the event!

He didn't say "Ramamnin ambu thaakiyathaal ponathey uyir". That is obviously the literal reason for Ravana's death. But he directly attributes the fall to the adharmic act of Ravana.

One man's meat is another man's poison, it is said. Adding a very slight twist, to look at another man's wife immorally has been shown to be poison here.

viggop

28th June 2005, 12:51 PM

Hi badri
All the above posts of mine are copy and paste.Not at all my original!!!

F.S.Gandhi vandayar

29th June 2005, 05:33 PM

I try to elaborate the ages of Raman - Sita during their Marriage.

In Kamba Ramayana the age is fixed normal by Kamban fittable for marriage.

In Valmiki Ramayana the scene is different denoting the culture of 'Palya vivakam'.

Raman's age was 12.

"Thoshath Tharakthi yampathi
Chinthaya Mana Darmathma
Sopathyaya sabanthda vaha"

When Rama was twelve Dasaradan thought about his marriage.

In Vanavasa Sita told Hanuman that she lived with Rama 12 years and destiny led her forest life in her 18th age.

"Ashtathasa Varushani mama Jenmani kanyathe"

Before 'Aknippiravasa' Sita asked Rama "You married me in my 'Palya' age and still you are suspecting me ?"

"Nabramaani KirathapMaani
Palye Palena Peedithag"

'Palya vivakam' mentioned in 'Manusmirthi' and according to that Raman's marriage carried out.

This is the Therma in Inthu religion of yesteryears. Rama married Sita is karma.

I strongly believe that the epic go around Karma,Therma and Atharma.

f.s.gandhi

viggop

29th June 2005, 06:05 PM

I thought that rama was aged 12 and sita was aged 8 during their marriage.

r_kk

30th June 2005, 05:07 AM

Badri

30th June 2005, 05:52 AM

I thought that rama was aged 12 and sita was aged 8 during their marriage.

Annalum nokinan, avalum nokinal... at the age of 12 and 8....

Very difficult to believe.... What kind of maturity our ancestors had at the age 12 and 8.... !!!

haha!! good one, r_kk!!

I have always found it difficult to accept too! And then they blame the youth of today??? Who start only as late as 15-16!~!!! :wink:

Well, I suppose a poet must have his poetic license!!! :wink:

Raghu

30th June 2005, 02:27 PM

I thought that rama was aged 12 and sita was aged 8 during their marriage.

NO NO NO, i don't think so, BUT in those days and even now in rural parts of India and Africa Child marriages do take place, BUT that was regarding as ENGAGEMENTS ONLY, nothing ELSE I know this DISGUSTING but this has been going on for decades, it is bad time this ILLICIT MUNDANE weddings are STOPPED

pls DO NOT DEVIATE from the topic, thanks

pradheep

30th June 2005, 04:48 PM

Dear raghu
You are correct. My cousin's grandmother (my aunt's MIL) told me that she was married when she was 8 and in malayalam it is called as therandi-kalyanam. It was a celebration and after marriage she was brought back home and over years she found the person she got wedded did not suit her and later at puberty 16 she was re-married to another guy (related to the first one) (grandfather).

I remember what she said about the freedom of women in those days. She said once wedded it was difficult to get separated and no choice exercised ...but before that women had the right to change before getting to physically. She also told unlike herself, some of her friends lived with the same person they originally wedded at 8.

When I was a young boy I used to ask all these questions and she would answer with high logic's and some of them at that age could not grasp.

I

lordstanher

2nd July 2005, 02:36 PM

Yes! Fortunately, the British put out the fire!

Um....actually, I recall my history tchr at school (7-8 yrs ago!) telling us tat it was Raja Rammohan Roy who appealed to the British Govt. in India to put an end to Sati in the 1820s (?)......following which it was made illegal.

viggop

4th July 2005, 02:38 PM

thirupullani jagannatha perumal temple.It is in Ramanathapuram district.This temple is one of the 108 divya desams.

Sthalapuran:

Nobody knows who built the temple.But it is there from vedic ages.It seems that king dasaratha came here to pray for a son in this temple and he got lord ramachandra as a result.

specality:

People who dont have children come and pray and get children soon.This shrine has another specality,it has lord Ram in sayana pose.Usually lord Ranganatha will be in sayana (sleeping) pose in temples,but in this temple lord Ram is in sayana pose.

In tirupullani,Rama tried to build a bridge to srinlanka,but later on chose rameshwaram instead.

The priests of this temple are good natured.They tell us stahalapuran with great enthusiasm.Temple is very clean and well maintained.If childless couple comes there,the priests bless them with such devotion,that we are moved by it.Lots of cribs are tied in the temple pupil tree as thanksgiving to lord jagannatha.

Idiappam

4th July 2005, 04:49 PM

Where is the Asoka Forest, that Sita stayed??

Vini Vidi Vici

4th July 2005, 06:22 PM

In tirupullani,Rama tried to build a bridge to srinlanka,but later on chose rameshwaram instead.

How can a god err?

Raghu

4th July 2005, 06:24 PM

http://home.iprimus.com.au/naractl/Festivals/Lord_Ramas_Appearance.html

viggop

4th July 2005, 06:58 PM

Idiappam Sir
I think Ashoka forest is in Lanka?Sita was put in imprisonment there with lady rakshashis to guard Sita and try to convince Sita that Ravana is best for her.

Sudhaama

5th July 2005, 08:58 AM

Idiappam

5th July 2005, 09:51 AM

Wiki on Ashoka

The Ashoka tree is a flowering tree considered sacred throughout India and Sri Lanka where it is found. It is prized for its beautiful foliage and flowers. The Lord Buddha was born under this tree in Lumbini. Also Lord Mahavira renounced the world under the Ashoka tree in Vaishali. The Hindus regard it as sacred, being dedicated to Kama Deva, God of Love. The tree gets a mention in the Ramayana as the Ashoka Vatika (garden of Ashoka trees) where Hanuman first meets Sita.

The botanical name for the Ashoka Tree is Saraca Indica or Jonesia Ashok. It belongs to the Caesalpaeniaceae family and is a very handsome, small, erect evergreen tree, with deep green foliage. Its flowers are very fragrant and are bright orange-yellow in color and later turn red. Found in the central and eastern Himalayas as well as on the west coast of Bombay, its flowering season is around April and May.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashoka_tree

viggop

5th July 2005, 10:41 AM

Idiappam Sir
Is there a photo online of this tree?i want to see how it looks like.

Sudhaama Sir
What is the peculiar phenomena in that particular tree in Sri Lanka?

Badri

5th July 2005, 10:50 AM

Dear Mr. "viggop"

// I think Ashoka forest is in Lanka?Sita was put in imprisonment there...//

Yes. That place is in the forest adjacent to NUVARELIA in Srilanka.. which is the Pilgrim-centre for the Hindu-Tourists to that Country.

One Specific Asoka-Tree there, is identified as the one where Seetha-Devi was made to sit under.

That Tree is said to be of certain peculiar phenomena, unusual in the Botanical History in the World.

First of all, is the Asoka Tree a long-lived tree? So long-lived that it could have actually survived the many thousand years said to have elapsed since the times of the Ramayana? That the same tree under which Sita sat is still surviving? :roll:

I personally wouldn't be too surprised if it is indeed statements/beleifs like these that expose us up for ridicule, and seriously undermine even what good really lies buried deep down a hundred such stories and myths!!

r_kk

5th July 2005, 11:31 AM

One Specific Asoka-Tree there, is identified as the one where Seetha-Devi was made to sit under.

That Tree is said to be of certain peculiar phenomena, unusual in the Botanical History in the World.

Dear Mr. Sudhaama,
Again and Again, you are proving that you love to create and spread myth. Most of your stories are far from logical and do not follow any kind of proven science including botany. If you continue your story telling process in the same line, no opponent orguments are required to falsify your claims. You are doing yourself.

Please go ahead creating/spreading new stories (horoscope for lion, Lake physically protected by Ram/Lakshman in 20th Century, facts or miserable stories of non-believers of astrology. etc etc...) and reduce the efforts of others who doesn't belive in such supernaturals

Idiappam

6th July 2005, 12:11 AM

Idiappam Sir
Is there a photo online of this tree?i want to see how it looks like.

Do a google image on the botanical name of Ashoka, Saraca indica.

Take a look at these page as well:
http://toptropicals.com/cgi-bin/garden_catalog/cat.cgi?uid=Saraca_indica

Sudhaama

6th July 2005, 01:02 AM

"Sudhaama"

// Yes. That place is in the forest adjacent to NUVARELIA in Srilanka.. which is the Pilgrim-centre for the Hindu-Tourists to that Country.

One Specific Asoka-Tree there, is identified as the one where Seetha-Devi was made to sit under.

That Tree is said to be of certain peculiar phenomena, unusual in the Botanical History in the World.//

The correct Spelling of the Town- Name : NUWARA-ELIYA....

.... near KANDY in Srilanka....

On the Strange-Phenomena, I pointed out...I am not interested to enter into disputes with anybody on the Veracity of my Statement.

What I have read and heard about,...I pass on here to others... as INFORMATION...

If somebody proves it wrong ... Well... I will correct my knowledge accordingly.

But my several dignitary- friends have confirmed such information which I had read earlier, since published in Books and Magazines....

So I am unable to ignore it nor consider it lightly as Dubious.... or Lose-talk.... but RELIABLE,.

I wish any Srilankan who has seen it and is capable to discuss about in detail...

... I welcome to reply on this Question.... Yes .. any Srilankan here please.

Badri

6th July 2005, 05:37 AM

What I have read and heard about,...I pass on here to others... as INFORMATION...

Epporul yaar yaar vai kaetpinum apporul meipporul kanbadharivu

I hope I have got that right! Idiappam, FSG, please correct me if I am wrong.

viggop

8th July 2005, 04:36 PM

Rama did not kill Ravana immediatly.He defeated ravana,sent him messenger after messenger to reform.He did not listen to anything.Kamban writes about one such incidence.

Perhaps "Indru poi nalai vaa" is another famous dialogue of kamban.It even became the title of a movie.But the correct verse is not "Indru poi nalai vaa".It is "Indru poi nalai porukku vaa"

Meaning "Go today and come back again tomorrow for war"

Ravana fought with Rama.He lost all his weapons,army and stood weaponless against Lord Rama.Rama did not kill him.With love and affection in his voice Rama said "Al ayya,unakku amaindhana marutham araindha poolai ayina kandalai,endru poi porukku nalai vaa' ena nalginan"

(Rama never wanted to kill Ravana.He did not see Ravana as his enemy.Earlier when sukreeva spoke about how he was helping Rama,Rama laughed and said "If I want I will kill Ravana and get what I want in one second")

When Rama said with so much benevolence how did the lankan king feel?
He felt humiliated.He felt lowlier than a earthworm.This also is a trick of god.He humiliates evil mongers first,destroyes their arrogance and makes them surrender to him.But some people even dont realize their mistakes at this point of time.

Kamban describes Ravana's humiliation in beautiful words.

"Varanam porutha maarbum,varayinai edutha tholum,naratha munikku erpa nayam pada uraitha naavum,thar ani mouli pathum,sankaran kodutha vaalum,veeramum kalathe pottu verungaye meendu ponan.

(The chest that wore jewels,the shoulders that lifted mount kailash,the tongue which sung songs so beautifully so that even naratha muni learnt music from it,the sword which lord shankara gave, and finally his valor--Ravana left everything in the battle field and went away with empty hands to his home...)

naal otha nalinam anna mugathiyar nayanam ellam vaal otha maindhar varthai ragavan vaali otha....

(In his house swan like women whom he loved,their words of affection now looked like swords to him,His childrens sweet talks appeared like sharp arrows of lord rama...)

Pan nirai pavala chevvai,paindthdi seethai ennum pen irai konda nejil naan nirai konda pinnar ulniorai manam thannai umilndhu eri uriy thappa thanan

(In the heart of Ravana the woman goddess seetha lived.Now in that heart shame and humiliation entered.A valiant ksathriya will die immdiatly if he is humiliated.But Ravana threw away the ksathriya valor and lived after that....)

Kamban says Ravana was dead on that second itself.We need not kill a man,if we destroy his self respect,it is worse than death.Ravana lived like that after that.He chose to loose his self respect rather than his life.

To be publicly humiliated is worse than death.But Ravanas biggest shame was not that.What was his biggest shame?Kamban says this as beutifully.

Van nagum,mannum ellam nagum,nedu vayira tholan than nagu pagaivar ellam naguvar endru atharku ellam nanan.......................................

Mithilai vandha sanaki naguval endre naanathal sambugindran..."

(Ravana did not feel ashamed that the devas in sky,whom he humiliated earlier, will laugh at him.Ravana did not feel ashamed that all humans will laugh at him.He was not humiliated when he thought that his enemies,who were treated by ravana with shame and contempt-will laugh at him.

He was ashamed when he thought that seetha of mithila,will laugh at him.That shame made him feel like dying..........)

what is more shameful than being humiliated in front of the woman whom you love?

viggop

9th July 2005, 12:48 PM

Ravana is madly in love with seetha.He conveys his love to seetha devi.Finally going mad with love he falls at the feet of seetha.What a fall....there is no downside a man can go because of illicit love.

Kamban gives it in beautiful words.

Ravana strats off as

"Endru than adiyenukku iranguvathu?"

(when will you show mercy to me?)

Here kamban uses the word 'adiyen'.This is a word used by devotees to call themselves.Adiyen indicates a slave.Ravana uses such a word to denote that he is the slave of seetha.

"vanjanen enakku nane,matharor vadivu konda nanju thoi amutham unban nachinen.
naalum theindha nenju neranathu
unnai ninaippu *beep* avi neeka anjinen
adiyen num adaikalam,amuthena vandheer"

(Beautiful women are akin to amritha mixed with posion.I drunk such a poison.I am afraid to die without forgetting you.Adiyen surrender to you.You came as amritha to me)

"Thorpither,mathikku meni sudivitheer,thendral thootra veerpithieer,vaira tholai melivitheer,venil velai aarpitheer,ennai innal arivitheer,amarar acham theertheer,ennum eena enna sivitheer amma.."

Now Ravana rambling in love.These lines are too poetic.

"You defeated me completely.Your beauty even heats the cold moon.By seeing you even cold breeze sweats.My huge shoulders which are as strong as diamonds became slim because of you.You occupied my mind completely during the spring time.(Spring is time of love)You harmed me.By harming me you caused benefit to devas who are my enemies..what else are you planning to do to me oh amma...."

(Ravana uses the word Amma.It denotes a tamil tradition of calling all women as amma(mother).The tamilian inside kamban peeps out during such occasions.)

"Pen elam neere akki,per elam umathe akki,kan elam num kan akki,kamavel enum annal eivanum akki,ainganai ellam aniyathakka pun elam enakke aaki vibareetham purindhu vitter.."

(Every woman I see becomes you.Every name I hear becomes your name.Every eye I see becomes your eyes.You made manmatha throw his vicious arrows on me.Manmatha threw arrows which are bearable only by Lord shiva.But he threw such powerful arrows on me.How can I bear these wounds of love?Oh what an atrocity you commited...)

Ravana is not speaking these words.Its the poet in kamban who speaks these words.Tamil poets always exalt the virtue of love and valor.Even the great thiruvalluvar couldnt resist writing about inbathu pal.Kamban is no exemption to this rule.Maybe the poet in Ravan might have spoken such words.

"eeasne muthalana matrai manidar iruthi aga koosa
moondru ulagamum kakkum kotrathen
veera kotti pesuvar oruvarrku en aavi thotrilen
pen paal vaitha asai noi kondarthu endral anmai than masu kanatho..?"

(All men including even Lord shiva dont have the power to kill me.I rule the 3 worlds by my valor.many great warriors claim that they are thhe greatest warriors in the world,even such warriors have not been able to defeat me and take my life.Such is my valor,such is my manliness.But if now I lose such a great life of mine due to the love on a woman,is it not an insult to my manliness and virtue?)

saying all this and more finally the great king Ravana who have never touched the feet of anybody kept his head at the feet of seetha.

Idiappam

10th July 2005, 05:13 AM

Epporul yaar yaar vai kaetpinum apporul meipporul kanbadharivu

I hope I have got that right! Idiappam, FSG, please correct me if I am wrong.

great!

viggop

11th July 2005, 10:47 AM

In Kamba Ramayanam , Bharatha tell Kowsalya devi the different type of sins.It consists of 20 verses.Some have been given here.

Bharathan says the following people are sinners.

Aram keda muyandravan-One who did not follow dharma
Arul il nenjinan -One who doesnt have a kind heart
Piran kadai nindravan -One who desired another person's wife.
magalirai vaalil kondron -one who killed women with sword
poikari koorinin -one who testifies false witness
porukku anjinon -one who is afraid of war
eitha edathu edar seithon-one who hurts a person who is already suffering
andhanar urayulai anali ootinon-one who burnt bhramins house
maindharai kondron -one who kills his own kids
vazakil poithulon -one who lies in court
nindanai devarai nigalthinon-one who abuses devas
Knniyai azi seyya karuthinon-one who thinks about abducting virgins
Guru pathiniyai nokkinon -one who thinks guru's wife with bad thoughts
kalavinil porundhinon -one who steals
oon nala unvazi nayin undavan -one who eats without giving to others(equates him with dog eating without giving to other dogs)

Thailaitha than thulavinon thalaivanallon ena alaithavan--one who refuses that the one who wears tulasi is god(vishnu)

Iravalalr arum nithi erindhu vilavinon--one who steals from beggers

Thai pasi uzanduyir thalara than thani pai perum paz vayiru alikkum paaviyum

meaning "One who fills his stomach while his mother is starving"

BHARATHA ON BAD KINGS

Azi varum arasiyal eithi agum endru izi varu siru thozil eyatri andu than vazi varu dharmathai marandhu...

He who gets the post of king using by cheap tactics which goes against dharma

anjina mannan--the king who runs away when evil forces attack his citizens

VEGETARIANISM:

In these verses bharathan says about vegetarianism

kandru uyiroyindhu ooga karandhu paal undon--one who drinks milk without feeding the calf first

uyir valarthu unnum asayon--one who raises animals and kills and eats them

Bharatha lists out these sinners and says if he had conspired against Rama He will attain the fates these people will attain.

viggop

11th July 2005, 10:52 AM

reading the verses above, during Kamban's times, i think there were courts where people were called to testify! this was nearly 1200years ago!!!

viggop

12th July 2005, 01:57 PM

Rama's beauty made people around him go mad.It even made sage viswamithra jealous.

valmiki narrates an interesting incident about this.Viswamithra takes Rama and lakshmana to the forest to kill demons.There Rama and lakshmana are sleeping.Viswamithra gets up and sees the sleeping beauty of Rama.Viswamithra knows that the one who is sleeping is parambhraamn himself.He loses himself at the beauty of Ram.Then he wakes up Rama with the famous verse

"Kousalya supraja Rama poorva santhya prabarthe
utishta narasarthula karthavyam deiva nmanniham"

Meaning "Fortunate is kousalya to beget you as her son.Oh Rama,wake up.Its dawn.Hey Lord Narasimma,work is to be done"

Sage viswamithra must have been jealous of kousalya,says mukkur Lakshmi Narsimacharya.He says that in hindu tradition a person is always called as 'son of his father'.But here viswamithra seeing the beauty of lord Ram thinks that how fortunate kousalya should be to see this parabhramman daily.Even though Viswamithra has seen god many times,how fortunate mother kousalya is to see lord as a child,playing with her daily and touching her and doing childish pranks.This is a fortune which even bhrammrishis and jnanis dont get

Many saints do tapas for thousands of years.Yet they get to see lord once or twice.While this being the case kousalaya without undergoing any such tapas or hardships has got the fortune which is the dream of all saints and rishis.

What is the use of being a bhrammarishi and seeing god once or twice in a lifetime?Who is more fortunate?Me or kousalya?Defenitely she is more fortunate than me and all other bhrammrishis.She attained this fortune only by her pathivradha dharma.

viggop

12th July 2005, 01:58 PM

[tscii:e579b2968d]Definitions of the meaning of the names Rama,lakshmana,bharatha and sathrukana (from valmiki ramayana)

The word 'Rama' is defined as ramante sarve jan˜× gunai× asmin iti r˜ma× 'in whom all the people take delight for his virtuousness, thus he is Rama.' The name Rama is very old, so says padma puraaNa : þriya× kamala v˜siny˜ r˜meõa aham mah˜prabhu× | tasm˜t þrŸ r˜ma iti asya n˜ma siddhi pur˜tanam || padma pur˜õa

Bharata is defined as: bharata r˜jya bharan˜t - bibharti iti bharata Bharata is because he bears the burden of the kingdom of Rama during Rama's exile.

Lakshmana is lkÿmano aksmi sampanna× or lakÿmi asya astŸti lakÿmaõa Lakshmana is the favoured flourisher. The wealth of selfless dedication is in him, hence Lakshmana. One who is endowed with favoured dedication, kainkarya lakshana lakshita Lakshmana is a hearty dedication to Rama and he always wishes to reside by the side of his brother.

Shatrughna is þatr¨n hanta iti þatrughna or þatrughno nitya þatru ghna× Shatrughna is always an enemy destroyer.[/tscii:e579b2968d]

viggop

13th July 2005, 12:27 PM

Surpanaka's love is 'no lesser' than Ravana's love on seetha.Both brother and sister,soorpanaka and Ravana did the right thing by loving Rama and seetha.But they made the mistake of loving only one person in the divine pair of Rama and seetha and hating the other person.God will not accept such a love.

Soorpanaka's love is a bit lengthy in kambaramayana.

SOORPANAKA WONDERING AT BEAUTY OF RAMA:

soorpanaka sees rama's arms and says

மரங்களும் நிகர்க்கல; மலையும் புல்லிய;
உரங்களின் உயர் திசை ஓம்பும் ஆனையின்
கரங்களே, இவன் மணிக் கரம்' என்று உன்னுவாள்

Meaning "Even huge trees arent comparable to his arms.Even huge mountains are small compared to his arms.Only asta dig gajas equal his forearms" thought surpanaka.

'வில் மலை வல்லவன் வீரத் தோளொடும்
கல் மலை நிகர்க்கல; கனிந்த நீலத்தின்
நல் மலை அல்லது, நாம மேருவும்
பொன்மலை ஆதலால், பொருவலாது'

'His shoulders which carry bows are stronger than a mountain.His body is blue in color.Mount meru is gold in color and hence isnt comparable to this blue mountain' thought surpanaka.

'அதிகம் நின்று ஒளிரும் இவ் அழகன் வாள் முகம்,
பொதி அவிழ் தாமரைப் பூவை ஒப்பதோ?
கதிர் மதி ஆம் எனின், கலைகள் தேயும்;

This handsome man's sword like face-Is it equal to lotus?No.
If I equate this face to moon its a mistake since moon loses its brightness once in every 15 days

நவம் செயத்தகைய இந் நளின நாட்டத்தான்
தவம் செய, தவம் செய்த தவம் என்?

Such a handsome youngman is doing tapas.What tapas did tapas do to deserve such a handsome young man to do tapas?

Then soorpanaka takes shape of a beautiful woman and goes in front of rama.rama asks who she is and she starts describing herself.

'பூவிலோன் புதல்வன் மைந்தன் புதல்வி; முப்புரங்கள் செற்ற
சே-வலோன் துணைவன் ஆன செங்கையோன் தங்கை; திக்கின்
மா எலாம் தொலைத்து, வெள்ளிமலை எடுத்து, உலகம் மூன்றும்
காவலோன் பின்னை; காமவல்லி ஆம் கன்னி' என்றாள்

"I am the grand daughter of bhramma.I am the sister of ravana who lifted mount kailash and won the 3 worlds and guards the 3 worlds.My name is kamavalli" said surpanaka.

Rama then asks why she came there.Soorpanaka replies as

'தாம் உறு காமத் தன்மை தாங்களே உரைப்பது என்பது
ஆம் எனல் ஆவது அன்றால், அருங் குல மகளிர்க்கு அம்மா!
ஏமுறும் உயிர்க்கு நோவேன்; என் செய்கேன்? யாரும் இல்லேன்;
காமன் என்று ஒருவன் செய்யும் வன்மையைக் காத்தி' என்றாள்

"Is it acceptable if a noble woman describes her personal feelings in open?But this feeling threatens my life.What can I do?Nobody is there to save me from the atrocities of manmatha" said soorpanaka.

Rama refuses soorpanaka saying

'சுந்தரி! மரபிற்கு ஒத்த தொன்மையின் துணிவிற்று அன்றால்;
அந்தணர் பாவை நீ; யான் அரசரில் வந்தேன்' என்றான்.

"Sundari,You are a bhramin girl.I am a ksathriya.Our marriage is against tradition" said Rama.

soorpanaka replied by saying

பொருந்தலை இகழ்தற்கு ஒத்த
காரணம் இதுவே ஆயின், என் உயிர் காண்பென்' என்றாள்

"If this is the reason for rejecting me,I will commit suicide" said soorpanaka

வருத்தம் நீங்கு அரக்கர்தம்மில் மானிடர் மணத்தல், நங்கை!
பொருத்தம் அன்று" என்று, சாலப் புலமையோர் புகல்வர்' என்றான்

Rama said 'It is not fair for humans to marry rakshasas.Pundits will not accept this marriage"

'காந்தர்ப்பம் என்பது உண்டால்; காதலின் கலந்த சிந்தை
மாந்தர்க்கும் மடந்தைமார்க்கும் மறைகளே வகுத்த கூட்டம்;
ஏந்தல்-பொன்-தோளினாய்

'gandarva marriage is allowed by sahstras.Loving hearts can join by gandarva says vedas.Oh golden shouldered one,accept me" said soorpanaka.

viggop

13th July 2005, 12:29 PM

நவம் செயத்தகைய இந் நளின நாட்டத்தான்
தவம் செய, தவம் செய்த தவம் என்?

No wonder Kambar is called "Kavi chakravarthy"!

viggop

14th July 2005, 10:37 AM

After Rama refused her,soorpanaka sees seetha and is dumbfounded by the beauty of seetha.Kamban describes it as follows.

Seetha walking towards Rama:

பெண்ணிடை அரசி, தேவர் பெற்ற நல் வரத்தால், பின்னர்
மண்ணிடை மணியின் வந்த வஞ்சியே போல்வாள், வந்தாள்

The queen among women,whos presence is a boon to devas,came like a precious stone and vanchi flower.

மீன் சுடர் விண்ணும் மண்ணும் விரிந்த போர் அரக்கர் என்னும்
கான் சுட முளைத்த கற்பின் கனலியைக் கண்ணின் கண்டாள்

Rakshasas were occupying stars,earth and skies.Soorpanaka saw the 'fire of chastity' that came to destroy the Asura domination

அரவிந்த மலருள் நீங்கி, அடி இணை படியில் தோய,
திரு இங்கு வருவாள் கொல்லோ?' என்று அகம் திகைத்து நின்றாள்

Soorpanaka was shocked by thinking "Has Mahalakshmi who lives in aravinda flower,left that place and come to this forest in seetha's form?"

பண்பு உற நெடிது நோக்கி, 'படைக்குநர் சிறுமை அல்லால்,
எண் பிறங்கு அழகிற்கு எல்லை இல்லை ஆம்' என்று நின்றாள்;

Soorpanaka thought "Saying this beauty has limits and boudnaries to it is an insult to Bhramma who created her.Does her beauty have limits?No,this is a limitless,boundaryless beauty"

பொரு திறத்தானை நோக்கி, பூவையை நோக்கி, நின்றாள்;
'கருத மற்று இனி வேறு இல்லை; கமலத்துக் கடவுள்தானே,
ஒரு திறத்து உணர நோக்கி, உருவினுக்கு, உலகம் மூன்றின்
இரு திறத்தார்க்கும், செய்த வரம்பு இவர் இருவர்' என்றாள்

Soorpanaka looked at Rama and Seetha again and again.She thought "This is the lord of the Lotus.These two are the pair which created 3 worlds and appear to those who show devotion to them.This is Narayanan and Mahalakshmi themselves.There is no doubt in it"

(Soorpanaka then gets jealous and starts calling seetha as a rakshasa woman.)

'வரும் இவள் மாயம் வல்லள்; வஞ்சனை அரக்கி; நெஞ்சம்
தெரிவு இல; தேறும் தன்மை, சீரியோய்! செவ்விது அன்றால்;
உரு இது மெய்யது அன்றால்; ஊன் நுகர் வாழ்க்கையாளை
வெருவினென்; எய்திடாமல் விலக்குதி, வீர!' என்றாள்

"This woman who comes here (seetha) is capable of Maya.She is a rakshasi who is full of tricks and cunningness.Oh great man,this is not her real form.She is a flesh eater(rakshasi).Dont accept her,remove her from you" said soorpanaka.

ஆயிடை, அமுதின் வந்த, அருந்ததிக் கற்பின் அம் சொல்
வேய் இடை தோளினாளும், வீரனைச் சேரும் வேலை,
'நீ இடை வந்தது என்னை? நிருதர்தம் பாவை!' என்னா,
காய் எரி அனைய கள்ள உள்ளத்தாள் கதித்தலோடும்

The amritha like chastity of arundathi (seetha) came to join Rama like how a spear joins the brave soldier."Why did you come inbetween us, you rakshasa woman" shouted soorpanaka in rage and with cheating intention.

அஞ்சினாள்; அஞ்சி அன்னம், மின் இடை அலச ஓடி,
பஞ்சின் மெல் அடிகள் நோவப் பதைத்தனள்; பருவக் கால
மஞ்சிடை வயங்கித் தோன்றும் பவளத்தின் வல்லி என்ன,
குஞ்சரம் அனைய வீரன் குவவுத் தோள் தழுவிக் கொண்டாள்

Seeing this rage the swan was afraid.She ran with her feet which was softer than cotton.She looked Like the pavala valli flower that comes out during season.She ran and hugged the elephent like warrior's shoulders.

Soorpanakas rage now was beyond all boundaries.She started threatening Seetha.

'பூ எலாம் பொடி ஆக, இப் பூமியுள்
கா எலாம் ஒடிப்பென்' என, காந்துவாள்;

"I will shatter this earth and break the pillars of earth" thundered soorpanaka.

Soorpanaka then tried to dissipate her feelings towards Rama.What did she do?

கைகளால், தன் கதிர் இளங் கொங்கைமேல்,
ஐய தண் பனி அள்ளினள், அப்பினாள்;
மொய் கொள் தீயிடை வெந்து முருங்கிய
வெய்ய பாறையில் வெண்ணெய் நிகர்க்குமால். 78

அளிக்கும் மெய், உயிர், காந்து அழல் அஞ்சினாள்;
குளிக்கும் நீரும் கொதித்து எழ, கூசுமால்;

Soorpanaka took ice and put on her body to cool her feelings.But will butter cool off a rock which was heated by schorching sun?She bathed in cold water,but even cold water turned hot.

இந்து காந்தத்தின் ஈர நெடுங் கலும்
வெந்த காந்த, வெதுப்புறு மேனியாள்

Even the cool light of moon torched her body.

இன்னவா செய்வது என்று அறியாது, இளம்
பொன்னின் வார் தளிரில் புரண்டாள் அரோ. 82

வீரன் மேனி வெளிப்பட, வெய்யவள்,
கார் கொள் மேனியைக் கண்டனளாம் என,
சோரும்; வெள்கும்; துணுக்கெனும்; அவ் உருப்
பேருங்கால், வெம் பிணியிடைப் பேருமால்

without knowing what to do soorpanaka fell down in grass and rolled in confusion.When she saw the Rama's beautiful physique being held by seetha , soorpanaka went mad and wild in rage and felt like she is suffering from a cruel disease.

போகக் கண்டு புலம்பும், அப் புன்மையாள்-
மோகத்துக்கு ஓர் முடிவும் உண்டாம்கொலோ

Seeing Rama and seetha being together Soorpanaka lamented in pain.Is there a limit to the kama of soorpanaka?No.No limits are there for it.

Eelavar

14th July 2005, 08:49 PM

viggop

14th July 2005, 09:51 PM

Dear Eelavar
Ramayana describes a war between Lord Rama and asura king called Ravana who kidnapped Rama's wife Seetha.
it does not mention any sanskrit or tamil speaking people.
let us please keep discussion to ramayana story as the moderators might delete posts which cause digressions.

Eelavar

14th July 2005, 10:43 PM

dear viggop,

cool down man.
every questions are good...

Why Ravana is seen as a demon and Rama as the god ???...

Does it means that some persons are not of divine creation ???...

Some persons think this story had really happened...
And that Ravana's city was located in South of Sri lanka, now the city is underwater...
If this story is right, it so can reveal that Ravana is the ancestor of Sri lankans...
and that the claim of Sri lankan tamil is not unfounded...

Eelavar

14th July 2005, 10:45 PM

and what about the vimanas in the ramanaya....

viggop

15th July 2005, 10:38 AM

After soorpanaka got jealous by seeing Ram being with Seetha, she started following seetha to kill her. Laxmana saw this. what happened next?

'தனி இருந்தனள்; சமைந்தது என் சிந்தனை; தாழ்வுற்று
இனி இருந்து எனக்கு எண்ணுவது இல்' என, எண்ணா,
துனி இருந்த வல் மனத்தினள் தோகையைத் தொடர்ந்தாள்;
கனி இரும் பொழில், காத்து, அயல் இருந்தவன் கண்டான்.

Meaning "Soorpanaka thought 'seetha is alone.No need to think anything now(finish her off).What is the other option regarding this?(nothing)'.Thinking like this the hard hearted soorpanaka followed the peacock(seetha).Laxmana who was guarding seetha saw this.

'நில் அடீஇ' என, கடுகினன், பெண் என நினைத்தான்;
வில் எடாது, அவள் வயங்கு எரி ஆம் என விரிந்த
சில் வல் ஓதியைச் செங் கையில் திருகுறப் பற்றி,
ஒல்லை ஈர்த்து, உதைத்து, ஒளி கிளர் சுற்று-வாள் உருவி,

'ஊக்கித் தாங்கி, விண் படர்வென்' என்று உருத்து எழுவாளை,
நூக்கி, நொய்தினில் 'வெய்து இழையேல்' என நுவலா,
மூக்கும், காதும், வெம் முரண் முலைக் கண்களும், முறையால்
போக்கி, போக்கிய சினத்தொடும், புரி குழல் விட்டான்

"Stop" yelled Laxmana.Since she was a female,he did not kill her.He held her hair,kicked her and drew his sword.The angry soorpanaka tried to carry him away by flying in the air.Laxmana dragged her down and cut off her nose,ears and other body parts and left her alive.

RAGE OF SOORPANAKA:

அக் கணத்து அவள் வாய் திறந்து அரற்றிய அமலை,
திக்கு அனைத்தினும் சென்றது; தேவர்தம் செவியும்
புக்கது

The shouts of soorpanaka travelled in 8 directions and even entered the ears of devas.

கொலை துமித்து உயர் கொடுங் கதிர் வாளின், அக் கொடியாள்
முலை துமித்து, உயர் மூக்கினை நீக்கிய மூத்தம்,
மலை துமித்தென, இராவணன் மணியுடை மகுடத்
தலை துமித்தற்கு நாள் கொண்டது, ஒத்தது, ஒர் தன்மை.

Instead of killing her laxmana defiled her body parts.But actually this act was equalant to cutting of the head of langeswara Ravana,who is equal to a mountain.This act is marked the day of death of Ravana.

உயரும் விண்ணிடை; மண்ணிடை விழும்; கிடந்து உழைக்கும்;
அயரும்; கை குலைத்து அலமரும்; ஆர் உயிர் சோரும்;
பெயரும்; 'பெண் பிறந்தேன் பட்ட பிழை' எனப் பிதற்றும்;-
துயரும் அஞ்சி முன் தொடர்ந்திலாத் தொல் குடிப் பிறந்தாள்

Soorpanaka in shame and in pain flew in air,fell in earth,rolled in earth,got tired by crying,hit herself with her hands,felt that her life had left her. "Why was I born as a female?That is why this happened to me" lamented soorpanaka who was born in such a high family so that even sorrow was afraid to hurt her till then.

ஊற்றும் மிக்க நீர் அருவியின் ஒழுகிய குருதிச்
சேற்று வெள்ளத்துள் திரிபவள், தேவரும் இரிய,
கூற்றும் உட்கும் தன் குலத்தினோர் பெயர் எலாம் கூறி,
ஆற்றுகிற்கிலள்; பற்பல பன்னி நின்று; அழைத்தாள்

The blood oozing from soorpanaka's body equalled that of a waterfall.The blood mixed with soil and created mud.Soorpanaka walked in that mud in rage.She called all the names of her relatives,of whom even devas and yema himself were afraid.

viggop

15th July 2005, 10:42 AM

'நிலை எடுத்து, நெடு நிலத்து நீ இருக்க, தாபதர்கள்
சிலை எடுத்துத் திரியும் இது சிறிது அன்றோ? தேவர் எதிர்
தலையெடுத்து விழியாமைச் சமைப்பதே! தழல் எடுத்தான்
மலை எடுத்த தனி மலையே! இவை காண வாராயோ

'While you rule the three worlds,atrocious human beings who think they are great did this to me.Oh Raavana,you cut the head of devas.Oh mountain like brother,You lifted the mount kailash of lord shiva.Will you not come to see how I look now?"

'ஆர்த்து, ஆனைக்கு-அரசு உந்தி, அமரர் கணத்தொடும் அடர்ந்த
போர்த் தானை இந்திரனைப் பொருது, அவனைப் போர் தொலைத்து,
வேர்த்தானை, உயிர் கொண்டு மீண்டானை, வெரிந் பண்டு
பார்த்தானே! யான் பட்ட பழி வந்து பாராயோ?

"Oh Indrajit...Indira sat on his elephent and opposed you with his massive army.You fought with him,defeated him.He sweated in fear and begged you for his life.You spared him and came back victoriously.Oh my great nephew,will you not come to see how I am suffering?"

'உருப் பொடியா மன்மதனை ஒத்துளரே ஆயினும், உன்
செருப்பு அடியின் பொடி ஒவ்வா மானிடரைச் சீறுதியோ?
நெருப்பு அடியில் பொடி சிதற, நிறைந்த மதத் திசை யானை
மருப்பு ஒடிய, பொருப்பு இடிய, தோள் நிமிர்த்த வலியோனே

"Even though these humans look handsome than manmatha,will they equal the dust in your sandals?Oh valianat Ravana,when ashtadig gajas walk in earth sparks will fly in air.They are so strong.You fought with those ashtadig gajas and defeated them."

'தேனுடைய நறுந் தெரியல் தேவரையும் தெறும் ஆற்றல்
தான் உடைய இராவணற்கும், தம்பியர்க்கும், தவிர்ந்ததோ?
ஊனுடைய உடம்பினர் ஆய், எம் குலத்தோர்க்கு உணவு ஆய
மானுடர் மருங்கே புக்கு ஒடுங்கினதோ வலி? அம்மா! "

"Did Ravana and his brothers lose the ability to defeat devas,who equal honey?These 2 humans are full of flesh,they are food for my race.Did my race lose the ability to kill these humans?Oh amma.."

"அரனேயோ? அரியேயோ? அயனேயோ?" எனும் ஆற்றல்
கரனேயோ! யான் பட்ட கையறவு காணாயோ?"

Oh my brother karan.You have the ability to defeat haran,hari and bhramman thmselves.Will you not come to see my sufferings?

'இந்திரனும், மலர் அயனும், இமையவரும், பணி கேட்ப,
சுந்தரி பல்லாண்டு இசைப்ப, உலகு ஏழும் தொழுது ஏத்த,
சந்திரன்போல் தனிக் குடைக்கீழ் நீ இருக்கும் சவை நடுவே
வந்து, அடியேன் நாணாது, முகம் காட்ட வல்லேனோ?

"Oh Ravana,in your sabha Indra,bhramma and other devas will be your slaves and ask you to give them work.7 worlds will worship you and hail you.You will sit like chandran under your umbrella in the sabha.If I come there and show my face,will it not be a shame to me?"

'உரன் நெரிந்துவிழ, என்னை உதைத்து, உருட்டி, மூக்கு அரிந்த
நரன் இருந்து தோள் பார்க்க, நான் கிடந்து புலம்புவதோ?
கரன் இருந்த வனம் அன்றோ? இவை படவும் கடவேனோ?-
அரன் இருந்த மலை எடுத்த அண்ணாவோ! அண்ணாவோ!!

Than naran(human) kicked me and rolled me in floor.He then cut my nose.I am crying while he is enjoying.Isnt this the forest of karan?can such things even happen here?You lifted the mount of lord shiva,oh anna,oh anna.....(anna=brother)

(The above said verse is a very popular verse in kambaramayanam)

'நசையாலே, மூக்கு இழந்து, நாணம் இலா நான் பட்ட
வசையாலே, நினது புகழ் மாசுண்டது ஆகாதோ?-
திசை யானை விசை கலங்கச் செருச் செய்து, மருப்பு ஒசித்த
இசையாலே நிறைந்த புயத்து இராவணவோ! இராவணவோ!!

I lost my nose.Because of my shameless nature I suffered this humiliation.Will not this insult spoil your reputation?You defeated astadiggajas and destroyed their pride.You are king of music and filled the earth with your music,oh Ravana,oh Ravana....

'கானம் அதினிடை, இருவர், காதொடு மூக்கு உடன் அரிய,
மானமதால், பாவியேன், இவண் மடியக் கடவேனோ?-
தானவரைக் கரு அறுத்து, சதமகனைத் தளை இட்டு,
வானவரைப் பணி கொண்ட மருகாவோ! மருகாவோ!!

In a forest lived two (cheap) humans.They cut my ears and nose.I lost my pride and am going to die here like a sinner.You destroyed the family of devas and put indira and his son in chains and made them your slaves.Oh such a great marumagane,marumagane....

'கல் ஈரும் படைத் தடக் கை, அடல், கர தூடணர் முதலா,
அல் ஈரும் சுடர் மணிப் பூண், அரக்கர் குலத்து அவதரித்தீர்!
கொல் ஈரும் படைக் கும்பகருணனைப்போல், குவலயத்துள்
எல்லீரும் உறங்குதிரோ? யான் அழைத்தல் கேளீரோ?'

Kara,dhooshana..You all were born in the rakhasa family with pride and honor and made it great.Oh my Rakshasa relatives are you all sleeping like kumbakarna.....dont you all hear my call for help...?

soorpanaka shouted and called all her relatives in rage.kamban writes even devas shivered after hearing these great names.....

viggop

16th July 2005, 10:28 AM

Soorpanaka walks in lanka's streets and Lankans are shocked to see her.kamban narrates is as follows

தங்கையும், அவ் வழி, தலையில் தாங்கிய
செங் கையள், சோரியின் தாரை சேந்து இழி
கொங்கையள், மூக்கிலள், குழையின் காதிலள்,
மங்குலின் ஒலி படத் திறந்த வாயினள்.

Ravana's sister appeared in the way,with hands holding her head,with mutiliated body parts and a wail in her mouth.

முடையுடை வாயினள், முறையிட்டு, ஆர்த்து எழு
கடையுகக் கடல் ஒலி காட்டக் காந்துவாள்,
குட திசைச் செக்கரின் சேந்த கூந்தலாள்,
வட திசை வாயிலின் வந்து தோன்றினாள்

The one whose mouth was filled with evil words(soorpanaka),came complaining as king for justice.Her voice even silenced the sea.Her hair was redder than even the morning sun.She appeared in the western gate of Lanka.

தோன்றலும், தொல் நகர் அரக்கர் தோகையர்,
ஏன்று எதிர், வயிறு அலைத்து, இரங்கி ஏங்கினார்;
மூன்று உலகு உடையவன் தங்கை மூக்கு இலள்,
தான் தனியவள் வர, தரிக்க வல்லரோ?

The moment she came,Rakshasa women of the ancient lankan capital recieved her with unbounded sadness.They hit in their stomachs and cried."How can we see the sister of the one who ruled 3 worlds without her nose and in distress?" they cried.

'இந்திரன் மேலதோ? உலகம் ஈன்ற பேர்
அந்தணன் மேலதோ? ஆழியானதோ?
சந்திரமௌலிபால் தங்குமேகொலோ,
அந்தரம்?' என்று நின்று அழல்கின்றார் சிலர்

"Did a powerful force than Indra do this?" wondered rakshasas."Did a powerful force stronger than the bhramin who conceived the world(Bhramma) do this?After such an atrocity will even the chandramouleeswara supoport this world?" they wondered.

'செப்புறற்கு உரியவர் தெவ்வர் யார் உளர்?
முப் புறத்து உலகமும் அடங்க மூடிய
இப் புறத்து அண்டத்தோர்க்கு இயைவது அன்று இது;
அப் புறத்து அண்டத்தோர் ஆர்?' என்றார் சிலர்.

"Who is powerful enough to do this?In all the 3 worlds we know there isnt anybody who is powerful enough to do this.maybe some aliens from outside world did this" said a few rakshasas.

'என்னையே! "இராவணன் தங்கை" என்றபின்,
"அன்னையே" என்று, அடி வணங்கல் அன்றியே,
உன்னவே ஒண்ணுமோ, ஒருவரால்? இவள்
தன்னையே அரிந்தனள், தான்' என்றார் சிலர்.

"After soorpanaka said 'I am Ravanans sister' who could have dared to do this?After hearing such words one can only fall at her feet and praise her as "oh mother".Instead of doing this is it possible to even imagine such an atrocity?Maybe she cut her nose by herself"-said some rakshasas

'இனி ஒரு கற்பம் உண்டுஎன்னில் அன்றியே,
வனை கழல் வயங்கு வாள் வீரர் வல்லரோ?
பனி வரும் கானிடைப் பழிப்பு இல் நோன்புடை
முனிவரர் வெகுளியின் முடிபு' என்றார் சிலர்

"The person to do such a daring act is yet to be born.Currently no swordsmen have this ability.Or is this because we threatened rishis?" wondered some

முழவினில் வீணையில், முரல் நல் யாழினில்
தழுவிய குழலினில், சங்கில் தாரையில்
எழு குரல் இன்றியே, என்றும் இல்லது ஓர்
அழு குரல் பிறந்தது, அவ் இலங்கைக்கு அன்றுஅரோ

So far lanka has heard only the pleasant noises of musical instruments like veena and yaal.For the first time in history a wail in sorrow was uttered there.

viggop

16th July 2005, 10:30 AM

SOORPANAKA FALLS AT THE FEET OF RAVANA

என்று, இனைய வன் துயர் இலங்கைநகர், எய்த,
நின்றவர் இருந்தவரொடு ஓடு நெறி தேட,
குன்றின் அடி வந்து படி கொண்டல் என, மன்னன்
பொன் திணி கருங் கழல் விழுந்தனள், புரண்டாள்

Entire Lanka wailed in sorrow.Soorpanaka fell like a mountain at the feet of ravana and cried and rolled.

மூடினது இருட் படலம் மூஉலகும் முற்ற;
சேடனும் வெருக்கொடு சிரத் தொகை நெளித்தான்;
ஆடின குலக் கிரி; அருக்கனும் வெயர்த்தான்;
ஓடின திசைக் கரிகள்; உம்பரும் ஒளித்தார்

Expecting the rage of Ravana, entire world was covered with darkness.Even Athi Sesha trembled his head in disbelief.Mountains shook,asta dig gajas ran away and devas ran away and hid in fear.

தென் திசை நமன்தனொடு தேவர் குலம் எல்லாம்,
'இன்று இறுதி வந்தது நமக்கு' என, இருந்தார்,
நின்று உயிர் நடுங்கி, உடல் விம்மி, நிலை நில்லார்,
ஒன்றும் உரையாடல் இலர், உம்பரினொடு இம்பர்

Including the Yema who rules south all devas and their whole clan thought 'this is our last day' and trembled in fear.THey literally lost their life in fear and their bodys shook.They spoke nothing to each other in fear.

மடித்த பில வாய்கள் தொறும், வந்து புகை முந்த,
துடித்த தொடர் மீசைகள் சுறுக்கொள உயிர்ப்ப,
கடித்த கதிர் வாள் எயிறு மின் கஞல, மேகத்து
இடித்த உரும் ஒத்து உரறி, 'யாவர் செயல்?' என்றான்

From Ravan's mouth,nose and ears smoke came out in anger.His moustache shook in rage.Like a thunder he roared in rage 'who did this?'

'கானிடை அடைந்து புவி காவல் புரிகின்றார்;
மீனுடை நெடுங் கொடியினோன் அனையர்; மேல் கீழ்
ஊனுடை உடம்பு உடைமையோர் உவமை இல்லா
மானிடர்; தடிந்தனர்கள் வாள் உருவி' என்றாள்

(kamban makes soorpanaka praise rama even now)

"they live in forest and guard the world.They equal pandya king in valor.Their body is filled with eatable flesh.But their beauty has no equilant.They were humans and they did this' said soorpanaka

(kamban uses 'meenudai nedun kodiyon anayar' meaning 'they equal the one with a fish in his flag'.Does this indicate pandya?I doubt it.But who else had a fish in his flag?kamban sung this in chola regime.pandyas were cholas enemies.So I dont know who this refers to.Is anygod there with a fish flag?)

'செய்தனர்கள் மானிடர்' என, திசை அனைத்தும்
எய்த நகை வந்தது; எரி சிந்தின; கண் எல்லாம்,
'நொய்து அலர் வலித் தொழில்; நுவன்ற மொழி ஒன்றோ?
பொய் தவிர்; பயத்தை ஒழி; புக்க புகல்' என்றான்

'humans did it' after hearing this ravana laughed in disbelief and in rage.8 disas shook by that laugh.Sparks flew from his eyes."can humans do such thing?Dont be afraid.Avoid lying.Tell the truth" said Ravana.

viggop

16th July 2005, 10:35 AM

Whenever kamban describes Rama,he starts praising him.Now soorpanaka describes rama to ravana as follows

'மன்மதனை ஒப்பர், மணி மேனி; வட மேருத்
தன் எழில் அழிப்பர், திரள் தாலின் வலிதன்னால்,
என், அதனை இப்பொழுது இசைப்பது? உலகு ஏழின்
நல் மதம் அழிப்பர், ஓர் இமைப்பின், நனி, வில்லால்

'Their beauty rivals manmatha.Their body equals precious navarathnas.Mount meru thinks that it has gijantic peaks,but the shoulders of these men will humble mount meru to shame.I am not even able to describe it.They will destroy the arrogance of 7 everybody in 7 worlds within a second by their archery skills' said soorpanaka.

'வந்தனை முனித்தலைவர்பால் உடையார்; வானத்து
இந்துவின் முகத்தர்; எறி நீரில் எழு நாளக்
கந்த மலரைப் பொருவு கண்ணர்; கழல், கையர்;
அந்தம் இல் தவத் தொழிலர்; ஆர் அவரை ஒப்பார்

They will only worship rishis.Their face rivals moon in sky.Their eyes equal lotus flower.They do endless tapas. oh..who is equal to them?...nobody"

'வற்கலையர்; வார் கழலர்; மார்பின் அணி நூலர்;
விற் கலையர்; வேதம் உறை நாவர்; தனி மெய்யர்;
உற்கு அலையர்; உன்னை ஓர் துகள்-துணையும் உன்னார்;
சொற் கலை எனத் தொலைவு இல் தூணிகள் சுமந்தார்

They know all martial arts.They wear sacred thread across their body.They are unmatched in arhcery.vedas reside in their tongue.They are truth personified as humans.They keep their words and speak beautiful words.

'மாரர் உளரே இருவர், ஓர் உலகில் வாழ்வார்?
வீரர் உளரே, அவரின் வில் அதனின் வல்லார்?
ஆர் ஒருவர் அன்னவரை ஒப்பவர்கள், ஐயா?
ஓர் ஒருவரே இறைவர் மூவரையும் ஒப்பார்

How can two manmathas live in one world?But they appear like two manmathas.Which valiant soldier can answer their bow and arrow?Who is there to equal them? ayya....One of them is equal to all Thrimoorthy's (ayya=sir)

Thus praised soorpanaka about Ram and Lakshmana.

Querida

17th July 2005, 05:47 AM

thanx vigop for the english translations with the tamil :D just one question what are astadiggas....not to throw you off topic...please do continue...

Raghu

18th July 2005, 03:06 AM

I have no clear idea about Ramanaya,

but i personnaly think that it describes a war between Tamil speaking ppl and Sanskrit speaking ppl.
It's what Nehru trusted too...

So can someone say and answer me .

thank you. :banghead: , Aiyo Aiyo Iswara Iswara, it is not between Languages or ethnic minorities, but a war for justice. moral, dharma between Good and evil, Ram is NEVER described as Lord in ramayana, but an avatar of Lord Vishnu, this epic teaches human moral/priciples/dharma/adaharma/karma...etc

viggop

18th July 2005, 03:15 PM

Querida
i think it is ashtadiggajas(8 huge elephants)

Surya

19th July 2005, 12:41 AM

Sudhaama

19th July 2005, 01:34 AM

Dear Mr."Surya"

// [quote="Eelavar"] I have no clear idea about Ramanaya, ...but i personnaly think that it describes a war between Tamil speaking ppl and Sanskrit speaking ppl... It's what Nehru trusted too...So can someone say and answer me .... thank you.//

// [quote="Raghu"]... :banghead: , Aiyo Aiyo Iswara Iswara, it is not between Languages or ethnic minorities, but a war for justice. moral, dharma between Good and evil, Ram is NEVER described as Lord in ramayana, but an avatar of Lord Vishnu, this epic teaches human moral/priciples/dharma/adaharma/karma...etc.//

Whether anybody believes Ramayana as a True-Story or as a Fiction..

Nobody can deny nor refute the high MORAL- LESSONS imbued in that Immortal-Epic of India...

... a Guidance for Humanity... of any country... of any group.. of any Age.

What is there to BRAINWASH ?... Whom ? For Whose Benefit?..

It is SUICIDAL to blame this Great Unparallel DEPICTION of Life- Realities.... so CHEAP.

In brief... when Good persons apply their Mind and Intellect Wrongly... all concerned become INNOCENT- VICTIMS

There Occurs Ramayana... the Triumph of Good over the Evil-powers...

... whatever MIGHTS one might have gained by other means.

It is not o War between any two countries or the People... but between two Kings... one the Embodiment of Righteousness

... while the other the Great Devotee ... mighty Warrior... STOOPED down too low....as an UTTER- CRIMINAL (Pollaa-Arakkan)

People who glorify Ravana... let them imagine... any Enemy who...

.. dares.to stealthily...Capture another man's wife ... and other Properties..

... as also takes law in his own hands to play havoc on all others and.... justifies his claim of..

.. Superiority... IRRESPECTIVE OF SOCIAL- JUSTICE AND HUMAN- MORALITY!!!

Surya

19th July 2005, 02:11 AM

Sudhamma Ji, :shock: :shock: :shock:

Really shocked. I'd think that u'd know my stance on Hindu Epics by now!! :shock:

I was refering to the post by Elavar, about Ramayana being a war between ppl of different languages rather than a high moreal epic, which really happened. :cry: The brainwashing of dravidian extremists by distorting it into a war of the lingos. :)

Sudhaama

19th July 2005, 02:26 AM

My Dear "Surya"

// Sudhamma Ji, :shock: :shock: :shock://

Yes... Now I have caught your point.... Earlier it was not clear as to what you meant Really...

In fact I was shocked to note such an ambiguous BLUNT-REMARK ...

... from You... my well-knowledged Friend ... my dear Surya.

I agree with you... on such sick-minded Brain-washing amongst the budding innocent Youth
.

Surya

19th July 2005, 02:29 AM

Thanks. Yes, I should have quoted Elavar's post, rather than Raghu ji's. :)

Yeah, It's really sad, because many teens in TN are brought up taught those things even today. :(

Hyderbadi

19th July 2005, 03:51 AM

Yeah, sadly, some people have also distorted epics in other ways as well. Some extremists have distorted the Mahabharat to make it look like a war between different races and they have distored the Ramayana to make it look like the Ramayana tried to insult people form southern India by calling hte ones who helped Lord Rama.

Sudhaama

19th July 2005, 05:48 AM

[tscii:efc3cc7903]
... Killing VALI by. Rama hiding ! JUSTIFIED ? .. HOW ?

(1) Lord Indra was one of the worst affected due to the Onslaughts of the Wicked- turned Siva-Devotee cum Mighty warrior Ravana.. So he was given a role as Vali with a rare and greater might to defeat his Enemy. Whereas, instead of antagonising his Worst-Enemy, he fell in line with Ravana and made friendship with him quite contrary to the very purpose of his birth as Vali.

Added to such a Wicked-role aligning with Ravana, and capturing his own Brother Sugriva’s Kingdom along with his Wife too

Further he was misusing his Unique might of Invincibility towards his Selfish intentions quite contrary to the Social-Law of Righteousness especially being a King duty-bound to set an example for the Subjects.. by means of Self-discipline

And such a Logical cum Moral duty is the Prime-commitment of the so called God, Indra. Whereas not only he failed in his commitment but also behaved in counter to the Scope itself.

Thus proving so cheap and denigrative un-worthy to be named as the Indira-awathara ... but deserved to be treated only as the Worst TRAITOR.

According to Dharma-Sasthras any Traitor is the Worst-criminal, worse than even the Wiuld-Animals///

.. and so do not deserve any such condideration of the Laws and Regulations applicable to a Warrior or King or of any Human-Status.

.. Other than the only Status as the Social-Enemy alongside the God’s Enemy///

... being the Antagonist to the Moral- Law of Righteousness towards the Well-being of the Humanity.

(2) After getting hit, Vali asked “Oh Rama, I could have easily got back your wife Seetha to you, by my commands to Ravana as also making him apologise by surrendering at your feet. Why have you antagonised me? I am not your Enemy.!!!

For which Rama replied “I do not need any help from you... nor interested in the friendship of the Wicked Enemy to Righteousness... however mighty he mnay be to serve my purpose.

If I do so. it will not mean me as a Royal-birth,... Not even a Warrior... Not even a Man worthy enough to be named as Human

(3)“Then why Rama, you made Friendship with my brother Sugreeva. And after all , we brothers’ quarrel and misunderstanding is our Internal-matter rather our Family-affair. Why you, an outsider should interfere and take sides?

For which Rama replied ”Every Human , the so-called Good-man abiding by the Divine-Law of Righteousness as well as the Moral-code of Humanity, has a bounden duty to protect such Laws in practical-life in the Society around whether directlty concerned to him or not When some Injustice is being practised any Law-abiding Righteous man cannot afford to be a Mute-Spectator...

Otherwise anybody and everbody may take the Laws into their own hands and fool others... stating it as an Internal or Family-affair

And such a duty is more to a Royal-born. So I had to interfere... when you are doing a serious injustice to your own brother.

Besides, when your brother Sugreeva an innocent Victim of grave injustice to him sought my support and help, I had to assure and keep up to my Moral-duty towards Righteousness.. Which I did.”

You are worse than any Wicked Wild-animal, for killing which no Human-Law is applicable.”

(4) Besides, you possess the Unparallel Boon-power of gaining the additional-might from your Face-to-face Combatant So it will become a delicate factor for me either to make that power true in my case or not. So I had to avoid facing you straight.

On hearing such a detailed justifications, Vali was well-convinced and repeanted for his folly as also apologised to Rama.

Accepting the Surrender, Vali was granted Moksha (Liberation from Re-births), .. ignoring all his past sins... which rare gesture benign grace is a rare privelege normally granted only to the Righteous persons of Past-Good-deeds

Whereas for Vali ... it was the Greatest-Favour from the Merciful Rama.

[/tscii:efc3cc7903]

viggop

19th July 2005, 10:19 AM

Dear Sudhaama
I thought Vali was born as a hunter and his arrow finally killed Krishna during that yugam.

viggop

19th July 2005, 10:22 AM

Thats what kamban writes.Ram and seetha met and fell in love.Rama left with Viswamithra,but poor seetha suffered the pangs of love.She immediatly had a disease called as 'kadhal noi"(love sickness).What was the nature of that sickness?

It was the wound caused by a sword and rope of yama writes Kamban.

பருகிய நோக்கு எனும் பாசத்தால் பிணித்து,
ஒருவரை ஒருவர்தம் உள்ளம் ஈர்த்தலால்,
வரி சிலை அண்ணலும் வாட்கண் நங்கையும்,
இருவரும் மாறிப் புக்கு, இதயம் எய்தினார்

Their looks acted as the pasa(rope) which binded each other and tied both hearts together.The annal(great man) who equalled an idol entered heart of the sword eyed woman and she entered his heart.

LOVE DISEASE:

பிறை எனும் நுதலவள் பெண்மை என் படும்?-
நறை கமழ் அலங்கலான் நயன கோசரம்
மறைதலம், மனம் எனும் மத்த யானையின்
நிறை எனும் அங்குசம் நிமிர்ந்து போயதே

Kamban writes "nayana kosaram".It means seetha stood watching Rama till he went away from the boundaries of her view.Until he became a small speck in the distance and completely disappeared from her eye sight,seetha kept on looking at him.Her mind which was equal to an unconquered elephent was conquered by an angusa writes kamban.

How did seetha look at Rama disasppearing from her eye sight?She stood like a painting without moving her eye lids writes kamban.

பைந்தொடி, ஓவியப் பாவை போன்றனள்;
சிந்தையும், நிறையும், மெய்ந் நலனும், பின் செல,
மைந்தனும், முனியொடு மறையப் போயினான்

She stood like an "oviya paavai"(painting of a beautiful woman).The oviya paavai kept on watching the blue colored theif, till he crossed her nayana kosaram.(limits of eye sight)

After this she had a disease.The symptoms of that disease were horrible.

Uthappam

19th July 2005, 08:33 PM

Sudhamaa wrote:

Lord Indra was one of the worst affected due to the Onslaughts of the Wicked- turned Siva-Devotee cum Mighty warrior Ravana..

Why was Ravana wicked?? Because he kidnapped Sita to revenge Rama for mutilating his sister? If Ravana was wicked, why didn't he rape Sita while she was in his custody?

There is some silly logic here, that you people talk! Bye!

viggop

19th July 2005, 10:19 PM

[tscii:49978b4c23]Actually Ravana was not a very good character.He was a serial offender against women.The reason he did not rape Sita was because of a curse as explained below.

This is a copy and paste
=========================

He raped 2 women. One is Punjikasthala - a celestial women and is cursed by Brahma. The other is Nalakubara's wife 'Ramba' which is what you have mentioned. This curse (of Brahma) is revealed to Janaki through Vibishana's daughter. Due to this curse, Janaki feels confident that nothing will happen to her and she is safe.

When 'Punjikasthala' was violated, The curse was given by Brahma, not by Punjikasthala herself. And Punjikasthala was the mother of Hanuman in her next life. She was re-born as Anjali and gave birth to Hanuman with Vayu as the father. She was re-born due to a curse by a rishi.

Read all the links given below and learn the nitty gritty details.

Links:
http://www.valmikiramayan.net/yuddha/sarga13/yuddhaitrans13.htm

Quote:
Once I saw a celestial nymph, Punjikasthala(by name) flashing like a flame, concealing herself in the sky and proceeding towards the abode of Brahma. She was made unclothed by me and was enjoyed forcibly. Thereafter, appearing like a crumpled lotus, she went to the abode of Brahma. I think that the matter was made known to the high soled Brahama and then the enraged Brahma spoke to me the following words: From today onwards, if you revel with any other woman forcibly, your head then undoubtedly will break asunder into a hundred pieces. Fearing the curse given in this manner by Brahama, I am not violently making Sita the daughter of Videha, to mount on my beautiful bed forcibly.

http://www.dalsabzi.com/Language_Festivals/hanuman_jayanti.htm

Quote:

The mother of Hanuman was Anjani who initially was a very famous courtesan in heaven named Punjikasthala.

Punjikasthala was cursed by a sage, who she had insulted and so she was born as a female monkey named Anjani.

Anjani performed penance in order to beget a powerful and swift son, which she did and who came to be known as Hanuman.

Quote:

Ravana himself tells the story of the curse on him to Mahaparswa who advises him to revel in Sita without waiting for her consent. On hearing from Puñjikasthalä what Ravana did to her, Brahma was enraged, says Ravana. "Highly enraged, the creator forthwith addressed the following words to me: 'If you (happen to) violate any other woman henceforward, your head will be forthwith split into a hundred pieces; there is no doubt about it.' Hence, afraid (as I am) of his curse, I do not violently put Sita, a princes of the Videha territory, on my charming bed by force." (Valmiki Ramayana, Yuddha Kanda, Canto XIII, Sloka 13 - 15)

The Uttara Kanda mentions another curse on him. This was the curse of Nalakubara, the son of Kubera. Since Kubera is the half-brother of Ravana, Nalakubara is - in our tradition - to be considered as his own son. Ravana violated the wife of Nalakubara, Rambha, the celestial nymph, that is to say, his own daughter-in-law, and received a similar curse from Nalakubara as well.

The point is, this was the most vital of all information that preserved the life of Janaki in the isolated prison of Asoka Vana, giving her the confidence that Ravana cannot come near her as far as she is firm in her resolve. As Hanuman observes, that Vibishana's daughter passed the information to Janaki was the main reason that strengthened her and continue to wage her lonely war against Ravana. Now, there might arise a question as to what would she have done in the absence of such a curse. Well, it is a matter of hypothesis. In such circumstances, as she herself tells Hanuman and even Ravana himself, she might have burnt him to ashes.

[/tscii:49978b4c23]

Uthappam

19th July 2005, 10:33 PM

He was a serial offender against women.

how?? how many victims?? who are they??

Eelavar

20th July 2005, 02:15 AM

enna mannikavum... :(

naan dravida extremists illai.

ennaku theriyum ella indian akkal ore ore manitharkal endu.

i'm sorry for this question. i accept it was a stupid one. And luckily i understood why.

anna verra oru keelvi kekalama ??

ramanayayil enna anda vimana kal ??

i want just to know if they talk about architecture of temple or flying object ?
as I am a science lover... i read some part of Vymaanika-Shaastra...

in the ramanyana, Rama had a flight trip from the Adams Peak towards India, is it only mystical or real fact...??

Have we only just consider Ramanyana as a religious and moralous scripture, or can it too be used as a scientific tool ?

viggop

20th July 2005, 10:21 AM

Uthapam
He molested 2 women before kidnapping Sita.They were Punjikasthala and Ramba.Please see the story i posted.

Badri

20th July 2005, 10:25 AM

Uthapam
He molested 2 women before kidnapping Sita.They were Punjikasthala and Ramba.Please see the story i posted.

Er...logical flaw here!

Ravana molests P, he is cursed that the next time he does something like this, he dies.

Then, he molests R, and receives the same curse.

Looks like the first curse wasn't very effective, was it?

Unless of course, he committed the crimes simultaneously!!

:roll:

Idiappam

20th July 2005, 10:47 AM

Uthapam
He molested 2 women before kidnapping Sita.They were Punjikasthala and Ramba.Please see the story i posted.

There must be a 'healthy', positive view of Ravana's action! That's how people interpret when Rama and his 'good' godly kins commit sins!

viggop

20th July 2005, 12:43 PM

Badri

20th July 2005, 12:48 PM

sbadri
I think different versions of ramayana have different stories.but i guess this curse is what prevented him from trying to molest Sita.
ANyway,even if the curse is not there,Sita would have burned him to death with her chastity.As in Kamba ramayanam,even the fire could not bear the heat of her chastity.

If different versions have different stories (in this case, even contradictory), which then is the correct version? Obviously, as pointed out by me, both cannot be true, so clearly, one is just fiction! Which one?

Why not both, then?

viggop

20th July 2005, 12:49 PM

Will laxmi ever become poor?She can become poor it seems.When vishnu is seperated from lakshmi,she becomes poor.That is what Kamban says

இமையவர் கடைய, யாவையும்,
வழங்கிய கடல் என-வறியள் ஆயினாள்

After seeing Rama,seetha lost her heart.Like how the occean which gave everything it had after devas and asuras churned it,seetha too gave everything she had to Rama and became poor.

seetha then wonders about who Rama might have been.

'நெருக்கி உள் புகுந்து, அரு நிறையும் பெண்மையும்
உருக்கி, என் உயிரொடு உண்டு போனவன்
பொருப்பு உறழ் தோள் புணர் புண்ணியத்தது
கருப்பு வில் அன்று; அவன் காமன் அல்லனே!

He who entered my heart and took away my life,he did not have a bow made of sugarcane.So defenitely he wasnt manmatha himself.

'உரைசெயின், தேவர்தம் உலகு உளான் அலன்-
விரை செறி தாமரை இமைக்கும் மெய்ம்மையால்;
வரி சிலைத் தடக் கையன், மார்பின் நூலினன்,
அரசிளங் குமரனே ஆகல்வேண்டுமால்

He looks like a deva.But certainly he wasnt a deva.I know this because he blinked his eyes.Devas dont blink their eyes.So he certainly must be human.He also had a cross belt over his shoulders.So he must be a prince.

when it became evening sky became blue.seetha thinks that,because everybody thought about the blue color of Rama,sky became blue

அவர்தம்
நீல நிறத்தை எல்லோரும் நினைக்க, அதுவாய் நிரம்பியதோ

Everything appeared blue to her.She saw blue in occean,rain water,neelotpala flower and emerald

'கடலோ? மழையோ? முழு நீலக் கல்லோ? காயா நறும் போதோ?
படர் பூங் குவளை நாள் மலரோ? நீலோற்பலமோ?

Rama's situation was no different.He lost his heart to her.He started to tell his pangs to lakshmana.

But what was Rama and seetha's marriage?Was it love marriage or arranged marriage?Did rama knew that he will marry the same woman who he loved when he broke the shiva danusu?Was seetha ready to marry anoybody who broke the shiva danusu?

"No,its a love marriage" says kamban.

what did Rama think when he broke the shiva danusu?Did he know that it was seetha who he was about to marry?What was seetha's mindset when many kings were trying to break the danusu and get her

viggop

20th July 2005, 12:53 PM

sbadri99
We can then follow Valmiki Ramayan as the authentic version.
http://www.valmikiramayan.net/yuddha/sarga13/yuddhaitrans13.htm
does mention Punjikasthala :)

Badri

20th July 2005, 12:55 PM

sbadri99
We can then follow Valmiki Ramayan as the authentic version.
http://www.valmikiramayan.net/yuddha/sarga13/yuddhaitrans13.htm
does mention Punjikasthala :)

Yes, that is right! The reason being Valmiki's version got the official "seal of approval" from Rama himself, having been sung in his presence by the twins Lava and Kusha.

viggop

20th July 2005, 12:56 PM

Raghu

20th July 2005, 12:56 PM

Uthapam
He molested 2 women before kidnapping Sita.They were Punjikasthala and Ramba.Please see the story i posted.

Yes this is so true, had he gone near Sita Devi, Ravana was bound to be killed by the curse imposed upon him

Sbadri annae

Pls reply to my pm, I sent u about 2 weeks ago :(

Raghu

20th July 2005, 01:00 PM

I'm surprised that Ravana inspite of being a tapasvi,shiva bhakth,knower of all literatures & music,master of sama veda still cannot control his senses.
the proverb "Those whom Gods want to destroy, he first makes them mad". sounds true in Ravana's case.

Correct Ravana being an Extreme Mahaeswhar bhaktha had many flaws, another similar example is Banasur from Dwaparak Yuga, during Krsihna avatar

but both(ravana /banasur) of them had super EGO, and SUPER DEVOTION towards Eshwar!!

viggop

20th July 2005, 03:28 PM

அவர்தம்
நீல நிறத்தை எல்லோரும் நினைக்க, அதுவாய் நிரம்பியதோ

Very beautiful isn't it? Kambar is to Thamizh what Kalidasar is to Sanskrit.

pradheep

20th July 2005, 08:55 PM

super EGO,
This is the only problem of everyone. One can be well versed in scriptures or talents, but if this Ego is not transcended then everything is lost. Mastering ego one gains everything. Ravana is a typical example that by birth and life style he was a very learned person. He also was a great warrior but could not master his ego and battle with it. If we understand that all spiritual practice is to master the ego , then we reap the benefits.

Raghu

20th July 2005, 10:16 PM

pradheep

20th July 2005, 11:24 PM

Super Ego-2

The opposite is Rama who transcended this Ego and so was able to give up easily his kingdom for his family (dad and step-mom's wish) and later in life gave up family (sita) for kingdom. This is how a person acts when he or she transcend's the Ego. Ravana on the other hand sacrificed both his family and kingdom for his Ego. This is the essence of Ramayana.

viggop

21st July 2005, 10:25 AM

Questions arise of of whether Ram and seethas marriage was love marriage or arranged marriage.When Rama broke the bow he did not know that he is about to marry the girl he saw yesterday evening.Seetha should have married anybody who broke the bow.Rama broke the bow.What if somebody had broken the bow?

Was seetha ready to marry anybody who broke the bow?'No.She wasnt' writes kamban.

Rama and other princes are ready to break the bow.Seetha doesnt care about what was happening .She was talking to herself.She even starts scolding Rama.She even questions his manhood."Are you a male" she asks Rama.

'பஞ்சு அரங்கு தீயின் ஆவி பற்ற, நீடு கொற்ற வில்
வெஞ் சரங்கள் நெஞ்சு அரங்க, வெய்ய காமன் எய்யவே,
சஞ்சலம் கலந்தபோது, தையலாரை, உய்ய வந்து,
"அஞ்சல்! அஞ்சல்!" என்கிலாத ஆண்மை என்ன ஆண்மையே?

Then she hears the news that somebody has broken the bow.What was her mentality?

Seetha's friend neelamalai tells her that the bow was broken.But from her description seetha knows that it was rama who broke the bow.But she swears to herself that if it was somebody else she will commit suicide.

'கோமுனியுடன் வரு கொண்டல்' என்ற பின்,
'தாமரைக் கண்ணினான்' என்ற தன்மையால்,
'ஆம்; அவனேகொல்' என்று, ஐயம் நீங்கினாள்-
வாம மேகலையினுள் வளர்ந்தது, அல்குலே!

'சொல்லிய குறியின், அத் தோன்றலே அவன்;
அல்லனேல், இறப்பென்' என்று, அகத்துள் உன்னினாள்

Neelamalai said that the one who broke the bow came with the saint and was as blue as a cloud.She said he had eyes like lotus.

Seetha remembered Rama's eyes.How can she forget them?Earlier Kamban wrote about meeting of eyes in many verses

கண்ணொடு கண் இணை கவ்வி, ஒன்றை ஒன்று
உண்ணவும், நிலைபெறாது உணர்வும் ஒன்றிட,
அண்ணலும் நோக்கினான்; அவளும் நோக்கினாள். 35

நோக்கிய நோக்கு எனும் நுதி கொள் வேல் இணை
ஆக்கிய மதுகையான் தோளின் ஆழ்ந்தன;

பருகிய நோக்கு எனும் பாசத்தால் பிணித்து,
ஒருவரை ஒருவர்தம் உள்ளம் ஈர்த்தலால்

So she easily identified the lotus eye.Even the descriptions like 'one who came witha saint' 'blue in color' did not satsify her doubt.

Not many of kings who came to the swayamvara would have come with a saint.None of them would have been blue in color.But even such peculiar descriptions did not satify her.Only the 'thamarai kannan' (lotus eyed one) satsified her doubt writes kamban.

'கோமுனியுடன் வரு கொண்டல்' என்ற பின்,
'தாமரைக் கண்ணினான்' என்ற தன்மையால்,
'ஆம்; அவனேகொல்' என்று, ஐயம் நீங்கினாள்

Thus this is love marriage says kamban.

viggop

21st July 2005, 10:29 AM

"'கோமுனியுடன் வரு கொண்டல்' என்ற பின்,
'தாமரைக் கண்ணினான்' என்ற தன்மையால்,
'ஆம்; அவனேகொல்' என்று, ஐயம் நீங்கினாள்-"

Scholars say that these two words, 'கோமுனியுடன் வரு கொண்டல்',
'தாமரைக் கண்ணினான்' have distinct meaning and only kamban coulsd have brought out such profound meanings to these two words!
The first one, 'கோமுனியுடன் வரு கொண்டல்', signifies the human aspect of Seetha. being now in the human form, she was elated to know that the same handsome man whom she saw the previous evening when a saint entered the city of Mithila, followed by two men of whom she had looked at the one with the 'lotus eyes'!
Then the divine aspect of Seetha, who is none other than Lakshmi who has spent Her entire time sitting at His feet and looking at His "Lotus Eyes" all the time , back in vaikuntA , revealed it to her that this 'தாமரைக் கண்ணினான்' is the same Hari who has now come for her!
Thus, both the human and divine aspects of these two characters are explained in just two words by this great poet!

In an earlier verse of the previous evening, kamban also indicates the 'prior' relationship in "pirindhavar koodinaal pEsavum vENdumO?". In th eramayana story, that is the very first time Ramaand Seetha are seeing each other but Kamban saysas above, thereby subtly indicating to us that these two are none other than that Hari and Lakshmi!

Eelavar

21st July 2005, 10:19 PM

it seem that somebody have problem to answer me...

in anyway, thank you very much.

Viggop , you do a great work of pasting , thank you too...

viggop

22nd July 2005, 10:04 AM

valmiki when writing about seetha being abducted by ravana,wrote that ravana lifted seetha by her hair and touched her legs.The parama bhagavatha in kamban couldnt tolerate this,How can he write that somebody other than Rama touched seetha?See how these 2 poets handle this incident.

Valmiki writes about this as

vaamena siitaam padmaakSiim muurdhajeSu kareNa sah
uurvoH tu dakSiNena eva parijagraaha paaNinaa

tataH taam paruSaiH vaakyaiH abhitarjya mahaasvanah
a.nkena aadaaya vaidehiim ratham aaropayat tadaa

(Valmiki writes as Ravana dragged vaidehi's hair, legs and waist and lifted her into the charriot)

How can the parama bhakthain Kamban tolerate this?

ஆண்டு, ஆயிடை, தீயவன் ஆயிழையைத்
தீண்டான், அயன் மேல் உரை சிந்தைசெயா;
தூண்தான் எனல் ஆம் உயர் தோள் வலியால்,
கீண்டான் நிலம்; யோசனை கிழொடு மேல். 72

கொண்டான் உயர் தேர்மிசை; கோல் வளையாள்
கண்டாள்; தனது ஆர் உயிர் கண்டிலளால்;
மண் தான் உறும் மின்னின் மயங்கினளால்;
விண்தான் எழியா எழுவான் விரைவான்

Kamban writes as ravana lifted the entire hut along with one yojana of land without touching seetha and carried it in his charriot.Kamban did not allow ravana to touch seetha.

kamban even loses his temper and abuses Ravana here.In other places he hails ravana.But here he calls him as "Theeyavan" meaning evil one.

viggop

22nd July 2005, 10:06 AM

1. Hanuman describing to rAman after his visit to Lanka

கண்டனென், கற்பினுக்கு அணியை, கண்களால்
தெண்திரை அலைகடல் இலங்கைத் தென் நகர்
அண்டர் நாயக இனீ துறத்தி, ஐயமும்
பண்டு உள துயரும், என்று அனுமன் பன்னுவான்.

Not satisfied with his efforts to stress the value of chastity, Kampan once again makes Hanuman to reinforce his points in the course of his report to rAman of what he saw in asOka Vanam and how SIthai was getting along. Hanuman said, " I did see SIthai with my very eyes; I did see SIthai, the embodiment of chastity, across the sea in ilankai. Please forget your sorrow and doubts".

2. Hanuman reassuring to rAman about sItha pirati

உன்பெருந் தேவி என்னும் உரிமைக்கும், உன்னைப்பெற்ற
மன் பெரு மருகி என்னும் வாய்மைக்கும், மிதிலை மன்னன்
தன்பெருந் தனயை என்னும் தகைமைக்கும் தலைமை சான்ள்
என்பெருந் தெய்வம் ஐயா இன்னமும் கேட்டி என்பான்.
(திருவடி தொழுத படலம் 25,26.)

To assure rAman that SIthai had not changed at all during her confinement, Hanuman continued, " Her behaviour was impeccable becoming of your wife, becoming of the daughter-in-law of King Dasarathan and becoming of the daughter of the King of Mithilai Janakan. Please rest assured she is all right".

viggop

22nd July 2005, 10:07 AM

1. sIthai Gently reminding rAman about the vow

வந்து எனைக் கரம் பற்றிய வைகல்வாய்
இந்த, இப்பிறவிக்கு இரு மாதரைச்
சிந்தையாலும் தொடேன், என்ற செவ்வரம்
தந்த வார்த்தை திருச் செவி சாற்றுவாய்

A significant lesson from Kamban's story are the value of chastity in both man and woman and the concept of one man, one woman in marital life. These are brought about in SIthai's own words, when Hanuman met her in rAvaNan's palace garden, asOka Vanam. These words were spoken when Hanuman asked SIthai whether she had any specific message for rAman. "Please tell rAman that I still remember the promise that he made on the eve of our marriage that he will not see another woman even through his mind", she said. This is how high and noble one could get in married life.

viggop

22nd July 2005, 10:07 AM

ஈண்டு நான் இருந்து, இன் உயிர் மாயினும்
மீண்டு வந்து பிறந்து, தன் மேனியைத்
தீண்டலாவது ஓர் தீவினை தீர் வரம்
வேண்டினாள், தொழுது, என்று விளம்புவாய்.
(சூடாமணிப்படலம் 34-35)

SIthai then reiterated her own steadfastness by saying that if, by chance, she died in captivity, the only thing she would pray was that she should be born again and rAman should come back and touch her body:

viggop

22nd July 2005, 10:10 AM

Kumbakarnan's statement (when he woke up), 'ThittiviDam eNdra KaRpin Selviyai ViTTilayo'.... Explaining the unique venomous Cobra breed called 'ThittiviDam'.. No one will dare to go near ThittiviDam.. He will compare sIta to ThittiviDam as no one good go near her without her will at Ashoka VaNam

Kamban's Kumbakarnan speaks to Ravana thus: 'Thou hast left the path of the righteous and thou hast made us hang down our heads; but if at this stage we send away the fair Sita, we shall be merely called cowards. It does not matter if we die, for, then our fame at least would remain unsullied.'

We are able to see that Kumbakarna is not sure about a win against Rama. This is something amazing that this rakshasa full of pride speaks in this strain. Remember. Kumbakarna overpowered Indra. His physical stature was so colossal that he lifted the Ayraavadham, the four-tusked white elephant of Indra above his head and propelled it round his head holding it by its trunk, as a shot-put thrower would do, and hurled it over a long distance. If he speaks in such a manner, it makes it very obvious that he has already realised that Rama was the Supreme one Himself.
Though he speaks against 'sending away the fair Sita' in the war council, he takes a different viewpoint later when Ravana wakes him up to go to the battlefield. 'aanadho vem samam?' 'Has the battle started?' was his first reaction when he was woken up to be sent to the war. The next question follows. alagil karpudai saanaki thuyar innam theerndhadhu illaiyo? 'Have the sufferings of Janaki - chaste beyond compare - not come to an end as yet?' The words 'chaste beyond compare' alagil karpudai (a literal translation would mean: alagu ill - without measure; karpu - chastity) fall from his mouth so very naturally. 'Has the battle started? Have you not yet sent her back? Are we going to lose our honour and reputation that all the worlds and the skies envied? Is our doom drawing near? O Ravana this shows that Fate is stronger.'

viggop

22nd July 2005, 10:13 AM

Eelavar
Yes.I only copy and paste all these verses.But,lot of people reading this thread benefit from knowing Kamba Ramayanam through my copy & paste work :)

happyindian

22nd July 2005, 03:15 PM

[tscii:286e298fc1]Wonderful work Viggop. Nice going thru your posts.

Abt Ravana being an Asura despite his Shiva Bhakti and all his spiritual "achievements", well the meaning lies in the word "Asura" itself.

Asura is a term that cud be used to mean who is in tune with / is attached to his senses. Ravana was a brahmin by virtue of his father's lineage but he was destained in a way that he could not give up on his materialistic & pleasure seeking tendencies, so he was an asura. (Well as you see here the so called association of words such as deva / asura with race is absurd.)

In this case lets us not forget that Ravana was blessed to gain moksha on receiving death from Narayana himself.

Please read this http://www.atributetohinduism.com/Hindu_Scriptures.htm#Ramayana

The Egyptian version of Ramayana is very interesting: http://www.atributetohinduism.com/India_and_Egypt.htm

Am doing a copy & paste job here:

The Sun King and Dasharatha - Two historical persons with Indic connections -- one from North Mesopotamia and the other from Egypt.

The Sun King Akhenaten of Egypt (ruled 1352-1336 BC according to the mainstream view) was the son-in-law to Dasharatha, the Mitanni king of North Syria, through the queen, Kiya. (The name Dasharatha is spelled Tushratta in the Hittite cuneiform script, which does not distinguish between 'd' and 't' very well. Some have suggested that the Sanskrit original is Tvesharatha, “having splendid chariots.”) Letters exchanged between Akhenaten and Dasharatha have been found in Amarna in Egypt and other evidence comes from the tombs of the period that have been discovered in excellent condition.

The Mitanni, who worshiped Vedic gods, belonged to an Indic kingdom that was connected by marriage across several generations to the Egyptian 18th dynasty to which Akhenaten belonged. The first Mitanni king was Sutarna I (“good sun”). He was followed by Paratarna I (“great sun”), Parashukshatra (“ruler with axe”), Saukshatra (“son of Sukshatra, the good ruler”), Paratarna II, Artatama or Ritadhama (“abiding in cosmic law”), Sutarna II, Dasharatha, and finally Mativaja (Matiwazza, “whose wealth is prayer”) during whose lifetime the Mitanni state appears to have become a vassal to Assyria. But how could an Indic kingdom be so far from India, near Egypt? After catastrophic earthquakes dried up the Sarasvati river around 1900 BC, many groups of Indic people started moving West. We see Kassites, a somewhat shadowy aristocracy with Indic names and worshiping Surya and the Maruts, in Western Iran about 1800 BC. They captured power in Babylon in 1600 BC, which they were to rule for over 500 years.

The Mitanni ruled northern Mesopotamia (including Syria) for about 300 years, starting 1600 BC, out of their capital of Vasukhani. (For Mitanni names, I give standard Sanskrit spellings rather than the form that we find in inscriptions in the inadequate cuneiform script, such as Wassukkani for Vasukhani, “a mine of wealth.”) Their warriors were called marya, which is the proper Sanskrit term for it.

In a treaty between the Hittites and the Mitanni, Indic deities Mitra, Varuna, Indra, and Nasatya (Ashvins) are invoked. A text by a Mitannian named Kikkuli uses words such as aika (eka, one), tera (tri, three), panza (pancha, five), satta (sapta, seven), na (nava, nine), vartana (vartana, round). Another text has babru (babhru, brown), parita (palita, grey), and pinkara (pingala, red). Their chief festival was the celebration of vishuva (solstice) very much like in India. It is not only the kings who had Sanskrit names; a large number of other Sanskrit names have been unearthed in the records from the area.

The Vedic presence via the Mitanni in Egypt and the Near East occurs several centuries before the exodus of the Jews. This presence is sure to have left its mark in various customs, traditions, and beliefs. It may be that this encounter explains uncanny similarities in mythology and ritual, such as circumambulation around a rock or the use of a rosary of 108 beads.

So is it possible that some Egyptian races (Kushites?) might actually be descendents of Rama's son Kusha.

Please let us know from Kamba & Valmiki versions, abt Lava and Kusha, what happened to them? What happened to the Surya Vamsa finally?
[/tscii:286e298fc1]

Eelavar

22nd July 2005, 09:20 PM

viggop

sincerely i thank you for this good work , but in such case, you must give the source, don't deny that there is a great intellectual work behind...and so , showing the link would help the real author...

I hope you understand what i tried to say.

With regards,

Elavar.

Idiappam

22nd July 2005, 09:51 PM

viggop

sincerely i thank you for this good work ,

Yes! I don't belief that the Ramayana is a real story but it is a story worth reading alright - and Kambar's poetry is really is really fun. Good Viggop!

Eelavar

22nd July 2005, 09:53 PM

dear happyindian,

i know this site reaveal us many of the Vedic civilisation and his hughe contribution to the world.

But unfortunately they talk only a little about the Siddha .

Siddha is recognized by the tamil schoolars as the equivalent of the vedas...

Unfortuntely atribute support the humiliting caste system, i cry for all the innocants vicitims of this human's injustice ,at the birth...

i hope the democratic and modern attitude will rise in India.
Many say it's is a indigenous GREAT invention, but....really...

viggop

23rd July 2005, 10:09 AM

Kamban introduces Gooni/manthra/hunchback as follows

Kamban describes ayodhya rejoicing Rama's coronation.He then introduces manthra as follows.He says ayodhya was being decorated and equalled amaravathi of Indhra.Suddenly gooni appeared like the evils of Ravana.

அந் நகர் அணிவுறும் அமலை, வானவர்
பொன்னகர் இயல்பு எனப் பொலியும் ஏல்வையில்,
இன்னல் செய் இராவணன் இழைத்த தீமைபோல்,
துன்ன அருங் கொடு மனக் கூனி தோன்றினாள்.

Seeing Ayodhya being decorated,she couldnt tolerate it.Her heart burnt at rage seeing this decoration.Her heart boiled,her voice was full of scorching fire and she had fiery eyes.She dared to harm the three worlds by her anger

தோன்றிய கூனியும், துடிக்கும் நெஞ்சினாள்;
ஊன்றிய வெகுளியாள்; உளைக்கும் உள்ளத்தாள்;
கான்று எரி நயனத்தாள்; கதிக்கும் சொல்லினாள்;
மூன்று உலகினுக்கும் ஓர் இடுக்கண் மூட்டுவாள்

why was she angry at Rama?It was because Rama hit her with pebbles when he was a kid.She carried that vengence in her mind writes kamban.

பண்டைநாள் இராகவன் பாணி வில்லுமிழ்
உண்டை உண்டதனைத் தன் உள்ளத்து உள்ளுவாள்

She runs to kaikeyi's place.She wakes her up.She cleverly weaves her web around the innocent kaikeyi.She starts of by hitting the weak point of kaikeyi.Before saying Rama is going to be coronated,she says that kousalya is going to get fame.

ஆழ்ந்த பேரன்பினாள் அனைய கூறலும்,
சூழ்ந்த தீ வினைநிகர் கூனி சொல்லுவாள்,
'வீழ்ந்தது நின்னிலம்; திருவும் வீழ்ந்தது;
வாழ்ந்தனள் கோசலை, மதியினால்' என்றாள்

"You have lost your power and wealth.Kousalya attained a great life through her brain" said manthra.

She then breaks off the news of Rama's coronation.

'ஆடவர் நகையுற, ஆண்மை மாசு உற,
தாடகை எனும் பெயர்த் தையலாள் பட,
கோடிய வரி சிலை இராமன் கோமுடி,
சூடுவன் நாளை; வாழ்வு இது' எனச் சொல்லினாள்

Meaning "Rama, killed a female (thadaka) .All men laugh at this act.This is an insult to his manhood.Will anybody kill a female?Rama did that.After doing such a humiliating act he is going to be coronated" said gooni.

Innocent kaikeyi is very happy after listeing to this.She gives manthra a pearl necklace.manthra throws that in disgust and starts her over acting.Kamban describes her over action as

தெழித்தனள்; உரப்பினள்; சிறுகண் தீயுக
விழித்தனள்; வைதனள்; வெய்து உயிர்த்தனள்;
அழித்தனள்; அழுதனள்; அம்பொன் மாலையால்
குழித்தனள் நிலத்தை-அக் கொடிய கூனியே

kamban says manthra stared at kaikeyi with her fiery eyes.Then she cried,she scratched the earth and insulted kaikeyi

--------------------------------------------------------

Kamban praises Rama many times through the words of Rama's enemies.When vali is killed he praises Rama.When Ravana gets defeated by Rama,he praises him.Even kumbakarna praises Rama.very rarely does kamban use abusive words against Rama.But here kamban abuses Rama through the words of manthra as

'ஆடவர் நகையுற, ஆண்மை மாசு உற,
தாடகை எனும் பெயர்த் தையலாள் பட,
கோடிய வரி சிலை இராமன் கோமுடி,
சூடுவன் நாளை.......

A female insulting a man's manliness is the worst possible insult to a man.Earlier Kamban said seetha too abused Rama like that.He wrote about it as

'பஞ்சு அரங்கு தீயின் ஆவி பற்ற, நீடு கொற்ற வில்
வெஞ் சரங்கள் நெஞ்சு அரங்க, வெய்ய காமன் எய்யவே,
சஞ்சலம் கலந்தபோது, தையலாரை, உய்ய வந்து,
"அஞ்சல்! அஞ்சல்!" என்கிலாத ஆண்மை என்ன ஆண்மையே?

Two women abused Rama's manliness.One did that in love.Another did that in vengence.Kamban shows how much he hates manthra by making her abuse Rama.He couldnt forgive her for sending Rama to forest.He introduces her as

துன்ன அருங் கொடு மனக் கூனி தோன்றினாள்.

kamban totally destroys gooni's character by making her abuse Rama's manliness.After reading the abuse manthra heaped on Rama,who will forgive her?Kamban doesnt make any character as evil as Gooni.He showed Ravana majestically,he shows soorpanaka comically,but he totally hates manthra.So he ensures that all readers hate her and do not show even an iota of mercy towards her

happyindian

23rd July 2005, 10:57 AM

happyindian

23rd July 2005, 10:58 AM

Eelavar,

i know this site reaveal us many of the Vedic civilisation and his hughe contribution to the world.

But unfortunately they talk only a little about the Siddha .

Siddha is recognized by the tamil schoolars as the equivalent of the vedas...

Unfortuntely atribute support the humiliting caste system, i cry for all the innocants vicitims of this human's injustice ,at the birth...

i hope the democratic and modern attitude will rise in India.
Many say it's is a indigenous GREAT invention, but....really...

I think the Siddha system was integrated into the vedic system that's why everywhere ppl talk abt vedic culture as something that encompasses the entire Indian Hindu culture irrespective of region.

I fully agree with you on the caste system. We & the generations to come are well equipped to chage that injustice. So lets practice that in real life and when our kids are older don't shrink from societal responsibilities & wholeheartedly support & accept them if they marry someone from a diff caste or even race.

For now lets not digress from Viggop's work.

Cheers.

viggop

23rd July 2005, 11:31 AM

Hi Friends
A doubt in Ramayana.Rama is known as belonging to the descendants of King Raghu(Raghuvamsam). But who is this King Kakustha?
Muthuswamy Dikshitar , in one of his songs(Ramachandram Bhavayami raghukula tilakam upendram), uses these words in charanam "kakustam dhimantam"(descended in king Kakushtha line).So, who is this king Kakustha? anyone knows the genealogy of Rama?

Badri

25th July 2005, 05:52 AM

[tscii:03f3af7855]Kakustha was Bagiratha's son. Bagiratha is famous for having brought Ganga down from the heavens to the Earth. You will find the entire genealogy of Rama being recited at the time of the wedding with Sita. This was narrated by the Sage Vasishta, to apprise Janaka that the family into which he was giving his daughter is indeed a worthy one. Janaka in turn narrates his family's ancestry, tracing it back to his illustrious forbears including Kings Nimi and Mithi, who founded Mithila.

This tradition is followed even today in weddings, when the respective priests of the groom and the bride read out 3 generations of ancestors in for each, to demonstrate that the bride and groom come from respectable families that have always adhered to Dharma.

I am giving here a brief summary of Rama's ancestry.

Brahma created Marichi. Marichi's son was Kashyapa, who's sun was Surya. Surya’s son was Manu, Manu had a son named Vaivaswatha Manu; he ruled over the people and earned the appellation, Prajapathi. A son lkshvaku was born to him; he was the first overlord of Ayodhya; and so the dynasty itself came to be called the Ikshvaku Line. Ikshvaku’s son was Kukshi. Kukshi's son was named Vikukshi. His son was Bana; Bana's son was Anaranya; Anaranya had a son who was named Trisanku. Trisanku's son was Dhundhumara, Dhundhumara’s son was Yuvanaswa; Mandhata was the son of Yuvanaswa; his son Susandhi had two sons, Daivasandhi and Prasenjit. The famous Bharata was the son of Daivasandhi. Bharatha’s son was Asitha; His son was Asamanja, who had a son called Amsumantha; Amsumantha's son was Dileepa, whose son was named Bhagiratha. Bhagiratha begot Kakustha. Kakustha’s son was Raghu. Raghu had a son, Pravardha. Pravardha had Sudarsana as son and Sudarsana's son was Agnivarna. Seeghraga was the name of the son of Agnivarna. Maru was the name of the son of Seeghraga. After him, the throne came from father to son, to Prasusruka, Ambarisha and Nahusha, in succession.

"Nahusha's son was Yayathi and Yayathi's son was Nabhaga. Nabhaga had Aja as his son. Dasaratha is the eldest son of Aja, and his four sons, a precious jewel each one, are Rama, Lakshmana, Bharatha and Satrughna. Rama, the eldest of the four, raised, bent, strung and broke the Bow of Siva.

[/tscii:03f3af7855]

viggop

25th July 2005, 10:17 AM

Wow! I thought it was Bharatha who brought down river ganga.
Is this Yayathi related to the Yayathi of Mahabharatha?

it cannot be because mahabharatha was a different yugam altogether. :-)

It would be interesting to know the Sanskrit translation of the name of each of the kings.

Badri

25th July 2005, 10:21 AM

Wow! I thought it was Bharatha who brought down river ganga..

Illa pa!! Have you heard of the phrase, "Bagiratha prayathnam" referring to the superhuman effort that Bagirtha did in getting the river down?

Also, Ganga is known as Baagirathi, and gets the name as daughter of Bagiratha.

Actually, an interesting point is that the Yayati of Mahabhartha is also referred to as Nahusha's son!!!

So unless there were 2 Nahusha's and both of whom named their sons Yayati, looks like it is the same Yayati.

Also, Yayati had 2 wives and many sons, so it is entirely possible that one continued the solar line, while Puru goes on as the first king of the lunar dynasty.

viggop

25th July 2005, 10:55 AM

viggop

25th July 2005, 10:58 AM

kamban is sort of happy to introduce mantharai as 'she' is the one who is going to fullfill the purpose of Sri rAmavatar!

here is Rama, who promised the dhEvas that He will finish off rAvaNA and has descended on the earth.
And what He does... marries seethA and is getting ready to rule the earth as the king, the next day!
We can see the plight of kamban as to how to stop this from happening as then, the 'purpose' is going to be delayed as rAma will be busy with 'rAjya paripAlanam'.
We can see his restlessness and introduces Gooni and changes the whole course of rAmAyanam in just 47 verses!
And he chooses the right person who can do this!
She is..
துடிக்கும் நெஞ்சினாள்; -- hard-hearted
ஊன்றிய வெகுளியாள்;-- extremely angry person
உளைக்கும் உள்ளத்தாள்;-- mentally disturbed
கான்று எரி நயனத்தாள்;-- fiery-eyed person
கதிக்கும் சொல்லினாள்; -- one with a burning tongue
மூன்று உலகினுக்கும் ஓர் இடுக்கண் மூட்டுவாள்-- capable of creating problems for all the three worlds
Who else can substitute her to do the job!?

And, the reason he says for all these....?
he doesn't blame gooni but only speaks of her natural evil tendencies but the reason she is there in the first place is not herself
but... the following are the main reasons!
1. இன்னல் செய் இராவணன் இழைத்த தீமைபோல்-- Because of the evil done by rAvaNA
2. சூழ்ச்சியின் இமையோர் மாயையும்-- due to the mAyA of the dhEvaas who were afraid that rAma might have forgot the 'purpose'!
3.அவர் பெற்ற நல்வரம் உண்மையாலும்-- as the validity of their boons by mahAvishNu for this cause is true
4.ஆய அந்தணர் இயற்றிய அருந் தவத்தாலும்- due to the harder penance done by the saints[again for the same cause]
5.அரக்கர் பாவமும்-- due to the sins accumulated by the rAkshasaas
6.அல்லவர் இயற்றிய அறமும்-- finally the persistance of the good deeds by the destitutes despite rAvaNA's misdeeds against them

These were the reasons that pushed gooni to kaikEyi's place that night!

here kamban also tells us a sacred truth.
rAvaNa's misdeeds alone, nor the boons got by the dhEvAs alone, nor the saints' penance alone nor the the sins of the demons alone were enough for rAmA to go to forest!
It is the final thing... the persistance of righteousness by the common men that was the clinching straw that sent rAmA to get His job done! It is a message to all of us to keep up with the faith and continue to do ONLY the right deeds that will give us the salvation in our present cause!

He further states that but for gooni, we, the present geneartion will never know of rAma's greatness!

இரக்கம் இன்மை அன்றோ, இன்று, இவ்வுலகங்கள், இராமன்
பரக்கும் தொல் புகழ் அமுதினைப் பருகுகின்றதுவே?
Because of gooni's heartless act only, today, all the worlds are singing the praise of shreerAma!
[perhaps the only place where kamban deviates from the storyline and addresses the present day happening. Again, his glee is evident here!]

viggop

25th July 2005, 10:59 AM

He calls kaikeyi as

'ஏய வரங்கள் இரண்டின், ஒன்றினால், என்
சேய் அரசு ஆள்வது; சீதை கேள்வன் ஒன்றால்
போய் வனம் ஆள்வது' எனப் புகன்று, நின்றாள் -
தீயவை யாவையினும் சிறந்த தீயாள்.

He calls kaikeyi as தீயவை யாவையினும் சிறந்த தீயாள்.

He uses very strong words like

அஞ்சலள்; ஐயனது அல்லல் கண்டும்; உள்ளம்
நஞ்சிலள்; 'நாண் இலள்' என்ன, நாணம் ஆமால்;
'வஞ்சனை பண்டு மடந்தை வேடம்' என்றே
தஞ்சு என மாதரை உள்ளலார்கள், தக்கோர்.

இன்னே இன்னே பன்னி இரந்தான் இகல் வேந்தன்;
தன் நேர் இல்லாத் தீயவள் உள்ளம் தடுமாறாள்,

ஊழின் பெற்றாய்" என்று உரை; இன்றேல், உயிர் மாய்வென்;
பாழிப் பொன் - தார் மன்னவ!' என்றாள், பசை அற்றாள்

Badri

25th July 2005, 11:01 AM

Thanks Badri.In the dwapara yugam, i thought everything was created new.The pralayam of previous yugam is supposed to have destroyed everything.I dont know how a lineage can come across yugams.Anyway,lets ignore that.

Viggop...there is no pralayam in between Yugas in a cycle or Manvantharam. Only after all the 4 yugas, that is to say, the end of a Manvanthara is there the pralaya.

Did you not know that Dwapara passes into Kaliyuga during the Mahabharatha war? That Parikshit meets with Kalipurusha and in the ensuing exchange, wrests a promise from Kali that he will only reside in
Gold, gambling places, etc?

viggop

25th July 2005, 11:01 AM

On the day of coronation,Rama goes to kaikeyi's palace to get blessings of dasaratha.He never meets him.He only hears dasaratha's orders through kaikeyi's mouth.Kamban has a nice trick in his sleeve here.

ஆயன நிகழும் வேலை, அண்ணலும் அயர்ந்து தேறாத்
தூயவன் இருந்த சூழல் துருவினன் வருதல் நோக்கி,
'நாயகன் உரையான் வாயால்; நான் இது பகர்வென்' என்னா,
தாயென நினைவான் முன்னே கூற்றெனத் தமியள் வந்தாள்

Rama sees dasaratha fainted on the floor.He couldnt understand this situation.Kaikeyi,whom Rama thought to be his mother came before him like a yema.She said "Dasaratha wont say this with his mouth.So I am saying this"

வந்தவள் தன்னைச் சென்னி மண்ணுற வணங்கி வாசச்
சிந்துரப் பவளச் செவ்வாய் செங்கையின் புதைத்து, மற்றைச்
சுந்தரத் தடக் கை தானை மடக்குறத் துவண்டு நின்றான் -
அந்தி வந்து அடைந்த தாயைக் கண்ட ஆன் கன்றின் அன்னான்

Rama fell in the ground and prayed to kaikeyi.He closed his mouth with one had of his and obediently listened to her orders.His mentality was that of a calf which saw its mother.

ஆழி சூழ் உலகம் எல்லாம் பரதனே ஆள, நீ போய்த்
தாழ் இருஞ் சடைகள் தாங்கி, தாங்க அருந் தவம் மேற்கொண்டு,
பூழி வெங் கானம் நண்ணி, புண்ணியத் துறைகள் ஆடி,
ஏழ்-இரண்டு ஆண்டின் வா" என்று, இயம்பினன் அரசன்' என்றாள்

இப்பொழுது, எம்மனோரால் இயம்புதற்கு எளிதே? - யாரும்
செப்ப அருங் குணத்து இராமன் திருமுகச் செவ்வி நோக்கின்;
ஒப்பதே முன்பு பின்பு; அவ் வாசகம் உணரக் கேட்ட
அப் பொழுது அலர்ந்த செந்தாமரையினை வென்றது அம்மா

I guess these passages are pretty clear.Kaikeyi says those cruel words.After hearing them Rama's face doesnt show any disappointment.His face looks like that of a lotus that blossomed that day morning.

kamban then says this rather peculiar verse through the mouth of Rama

'மன்னவன் பணியன்று ஆகின், நும் பணி மறுப்பனோ? என்
பின்னவன் பெற்ற செல்வம் அடியனேன் பெற்றது அன்றோ?
என் இனி உறுதி அப்பால்? இப்பணி தலைமேற் கொண்டேன்;
மின்னொளிர் கானம் இன்றே போகின்றேன்; விடையும் கொண்டேன்

"This is not my fathers order.This is your order.Will I refuse it?My borthers wealth is my wealth.I take this job on my head.I am going to the shining forest immediatly.I bid good bye to you"

Rama's face was like a lotus after hearing this news.But what did lakshmana do after he heard this?He went wild in rage writes kamban.

கேட்டான் இளையோன்; கிளர் ஞாலம் வரத்தினாலே
மீட்டாள்; அளித்தாள் வனம் தம் முனை, வெம்மை முற்றித்
தீட்டாத வேல் கண் சிறுதாய்' என யாவராலும்
மூட்டாத காலக் கடைத்தீயென மூண்டு எழுந்தான். 111

கண்ணின் கடைத் தீயுக, நெற்றியில் கற்றை நாற,
விண்ணிற் சுடரும் சுடர் தோன்ற, மெய்ந்நீர் விரிப்ப,
உள் நிற்கும் உயிர்ப்பு எனும் ஊதை பிறக்க, நின்ற
அண்ணல் பெரியோன் தனது ஆதியின் மூர்த்தி ஒத்தான்

Lakshmana rose in rage like pralaya fire.Sparks flew from his eyes and his true self (athi sesha) came out.He equalled athi sesha in his rage says kamban.

viggop

26th July 2005, 09:36 AM

Lakshmana after hearing that Rama has to go to forest errupted like a volcano.Kamban describes his rage as follows

கண்ணின் கடைத் தீயுக, நெற்றியில் கற்றை நாற,
விண்ணிற் சுடரும் சுடர் தோன்ற, மெய்ந்நீர் விரிப்ப,
உள் நிற்கும் உயிர்ப்பு எனும் ஊதை பிறக்க, நின்ற
அண்ணல் பெரியோன் தனது ஆதியின் மூர்த்தி ஒத்தான்

Lakshmana thundered on kaikeyi's desire as follows

'சிங்கக் குருளைக்கு இடு தீம் சுவை ஊனை, நாயின்
வெங் கண் சிறு குட்டனை ஊட்ட விரும்பினாளே!
நங்கைக்கு அறிவின் திறம்! நன்று, இது! நன்று, இது!' என்னா,
கங்கைக்கு இறைவன் கடகக் கை புடைத்து நக்கான்.

We see some interesting differences between approach of Rama and his brothers towards kaikeyi.Rama did not think anything bad about kaikeyi even after her sabotage.He held her as Goddess and equal to his mother kousalya.He followed the dharma of 'mathru devo bhava' till the end.

He never hated kaikeyi.Kamban writes that in yudha kanda when dasaratha's soul met Rama,Rama asked a boon from dasaratha.What was the boon he asked?

He asked dasaratha to forgive kaikeyi.Dasaratha's soul is infuriated after hearing this.This is because dasaratha had disowned bharatha and kaikeyi.His words against kaikeyi were very furious.They equal a divorce.

இன்னே பலவும் பகர்வான்; இரங்கா தாளை நோக்கி,
'சொன்னேன் இன்றே; இவள் என் தாரம் அல்லள்; துறந்தேன்;
மன்னே ஆவான் வரும் அப் பரதன் தனையும் மகனென்று
உன்னேன்; முனிவா! அவனும் ஆகான் உரிமைக்கு' என்றான்

This equals a divorce.He also disowned bharatha.So in the end only sathrugana did the last rites for Dasaratha.

So while this being the case dasaratha was infuriated in hearing kaikeyi's name even when he attained the mukthi stage writes kamban.In Yudha kanda, Dasaratha hugs Rama and asks him what he wants.Rama asks Dasaratha that he should forgive Bharatha and kaikeyi.

'ஆயினும், உனக்கு அமைந்தது ஒன்று உரை' என, அழகன்,
'தீயள் என்று நீ துறந்த என் தெய்வமும் மகனும்,
தாயும் தம்பியும் ஆம் வரம் தருக!' எனத் தாழ்ந்தான்;

Here Rama refers to kaikeyi as "என் தெய்வமும் ".He did not leave aside his devotion on her even at that stage.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So while this being the case with Rama,his brothers show a different attitude.kaikeyi is mother to Lakhsmana,bharatha and sathrugana.But lakshmana and bharatha abuse kaikeyi with fiery words.They dont show the restraint which Rama showed.'mathru devo bhava' is not a dharma which they follow.

Particularly Bharatha's words on kaikeyi are very,very harsh.But lakshmana even goes one step ahead and says he is ready to kill kaikeyi.

'மெய்யைச் சிதைவித்து, நின் மேல் முறை நீத்த நெஞ்சம்
மையில் கரியாள் எதிர், நின்னை அம் மௌலி சூட்டல்
செய்யக் கருதித் தடைசெய்குநர் தேவர் ஏனும்;
துய்யைச் சுடுவெங்கனலின் சுடுவான் துணிந்தேன்

"whoever comes inbetween Rama's coronation,I will burn them-even if it is devas" thunders Lakshmana.

Bharatha is also about to kill kaikeyi.When kaikeyi later tells him she made Rama to go to forest to coronate Bharatha,Bharatha doesnt even start to abuse her first.'He shakes in rage and tries to kill her first- but then doesnt do so since Rama would not like that' says kamban.

Kamban describes Bharatha's rage as follows

துடித்தன கபோலங்கள்; சுற்றும் தீச் சுடர்
பொடித்தன மயிர்த் தொளை; புகையும் போர்த்தது;
மடித்தது வாய்; நெடு மழைக் கை, மண் பக
அடித்தன, ஒன்றொடு ஒன்று அசனி அஞ்சவே

He tries to kill her but then spares her because of Rama.

கொடிய வெங் கோபத்தால் கொதித்த கோளரி,
கடியவள் தாய் எனக் கருதுகின்றிலன்;
'நெடியவன் முனியும்' என்று அஞ்சி நின்றனன்;
இடி உரும் அனைய வெம் மொழி இயம்புவான்

He calls his mother as an evil ghost.He asks her to commit suicide.

நோயீர் அல்லீர்; நும் கணவன் தன் உயிர் உண்டீர்;
பேயீரே நீர்! இன்னம் இருக்கப் பெறுவீரே?
மாயீர்! மாயா வன் பழி தந்தீர்! முலை தந்தீர்!
தாயீரே நீர்! இன்னும் எனக்கு என் தருவீரே

Bharatha and lakshmana certainly did not have Rama's attutude towards kaikeyi.This is not surprising.They did not follow the dharmas of mathru devo bhava.They followed a dharma higher than that.One which krishna will say in Bhagavat geetha after thousnads of years as follows

sarva-dharman parityajya
mam ekam saranam vraja

They threw away everything and surrendered to Rama.lakhsmana doesnt hesitate to kill kaikeyi,dasaratha and his elder brother bharatha.Mathru devo bhava doesnt apply to Bharatha and lakshmana.They threw away all dharmas and surrendered to Rama.

Later arjuna will do the same thing.He will follow every word of krishna without bothering about yudha dharma.He will cut purichravas hand from behind.He will kill bheeshma by hiding behind sathyagi.He will kill karna when karna is in the ground.

viggop

26th July 2005, 09:37 AM

how Rama cooled Lakshmana's fury.

Lakshmana is angry and is about to kill all.He is furious.Rama cames there and asks innocently why lakshmana is angry.

'என்னத்த! என், நீ இறையோரை முனிந்திலாதாய்,
சன்னத்தன் ஆகித் தனுஏந்துதற்கு ஏது?' என்றான்

lakshmana then swears he is going to kill everybody.

Rama then asks innocently why lakshmana got angry.

உளையா அறம் வற்றிட, ஊழ் வழுவுற்ற சீற்றம்,
விளையாத நிலத்து, உனக்கு எங்ஙன் விளைந்தது?' என்றான்

After hearing this lakshmana is even more infuriated.Rama has just lost his crown.He is about to get life term prison in a forest.But still he asks 'what happened?'

'what else can happen' wonders lakshmana.This is the saddest moment in lakshmana's life so far.So he asks "If I shouldnt get angry now,then when should I get angry?"

"பகையால் இழந்தே, வனம் போதி" என்றால்,
யாண்டோ , அடியேற்கு இனிச்சீற்றம் அடுப்பது?' என்றான்

Then Rama advises lakshmana and pacifies him ,writes kamban.

Badri

26th July 2005, 09:51 AM

Kaikeyi's character is hardly analysed by anyone. People just take it for granted that she is the villain of the piece. Actually, she is not. Indeed, her love for Rama exceeded her love for Bharatha even.

She hears from Manthara (Kooni) about Rama's coronation. Manthara goes on to tell her what a fool she is to let that happen. She tells her of what a terrible fate will befall her if that happens.

Yet, inspite of listening to these poisonous words, what is Kaika's first reaction? She rises up in joy, and rewards Manthara with a "aabharanam" a jewel.

Valmiki says, "pramadottama" to describe Kaikeyi at this juncture, meaning the "best of women". That is how highly the poet estimates her, knowing fully well what she is going to do soon. Yet, he calls her "best of women" for indeed she is such.

She gives the jewel to Manthara and says," "Oh, Manthara! You informed much gladdening news to me. What else can I do for you, who informed such a good news? I do not see any difference between Rama and Bharata. That is why, I am happy that Rama is being anointed for crown by the king. O, Manthara! You do merit every favor. I have no other pleasant news than this. Hence, you cannot ever again inform a better loving news than this. I shall give you a good boon. Ask for it!"

Later, countering Manthara's allegations, she declares, "For me, Rama is as lovable as Bharata and even more. Is he not doing more service to me than to Kausalya? If Rama has the kingdom then Bharata has it as well. Rama esteems his brothers just as his own self."

These words come from her heart, and this is how she truly feels. For a woman who feels love for Rama like this, would just a few more words from Manthara convince her that she should banish Rama?

Truly, the greatest sacrifice in Ramayana is made by Kaikeyi, who to further the cause of Rama's avathar alienated herself, made herself the victim of despise and ridicule and hatred. No wonder then that Rama loved her even more than his own mother!

Which woman would give up her everything - her husband, her son, her name, her fame - for the sake of the Lord???

viggop

26th July 2005, 11:50 AM

Yes Badri! when manthra first tells the news of Rama's coronation, she gives her a pearl necklace as she is so happy.then manthra changes her mind filling it with poison.

Also, what is the war in which kaikeyi got this boon from Dasaratha?
can anyone put the whole story here? Kaikeyi is said to have used her hand for the axle or something similar.she must be a really strong woman to do that!!! I am interested in that story of Kaikeyi

:)

Badri

26th July 2005, 12:05 PM

I have heard the story about the wheel thing as well, but Valmiki refers to a story that goes thus:

Dasaratha goes with many other kings to aid Indra in his battle against the asuram Sambhara. In that battle, the devas are nearly routed, and the asuras indulge in unscruplous warfare such as killing even the injured and unconcious. Dasaratha himself falls down in a swoon and Kaikeyi fights off the asuras and rescues him by taking him away from the field.

So he gives 2 boons, one for having protected him and one for fending off the demons.

viggop

27th July 2005, 10:07 AM

Hanuman(Maruthi) is called as sollin selvan because of his communication skills.He knew to speak beautiful words and was a very effective communicator.

In sundara kandam he meets seetha for the first time.She is about to commit suicide.He was afraid to touch her and stop her act.So Hanuman jumps before her saying that he is Rama thootha

கண்டனன் அனுமனும்; கருத்தும் எண்ணினான்;
கொண்டனன் துணுக்கம்; மெய் தீண்டக் கூசுவான்,
'அண்டர் நாயகன் அருள் தூதன் யான்' எனா,
தொண்டை வாய் மயிலினைத் தொழுது, தோன்றினான்.

Here hanuman doesnt say "Dont commit suicide or stop...".He uses his words very effeciently.In the words he says,he communicates what he had to say very effeciently. "I am Rama thootha.He knows your whereabouts and he will come and remove your sorrow.So stop this act" all this is effeciently communicated in his message.

Seetha then asks him who Hanuman is.See how the reply comes from his mouth.

'மற்று, அவன் முன்னோன் வாலி; இராவணன் வலி தன் வாலின்
இற்று உகக் கட்டி, எட்டுத் திசையினும் எழுந்து பாய்ந்த
வெற்றியன்; தேவர் வேண்ட, வேலையை, விலங்கல் மத்தில்
சுற்றிய நாகம் தேய, அமுது எழ கடைந்த தோளான். 30

'அன்னவன்தன்னை, உம் கோன், அம்பு ஒன்றால் ஆவி வாங்கி,
பின்னவற்கு அரசு நல்கி, துணை எனப் பிடித்தான்; எங்கள்
மன்னவன்தனக்கு, நாயேன், மந்திரத்து உள்ளேன்; வானின்
நல் நெடுங் காலின் மைந்தன்; நாமமும் அனுமன் என்பேன்

Hanuman says about sugreeva and vali.He says that Vali tied Ravana in his tail and insulted him.He then says such a valiant vali was killed by a single arrow of Rama.Rama then gave the kingdom to sugreeva.hanuman says that he is the servant of such a great king sugreeva.

Hanuman by talking about vali's death consoles seetha indirectly.Vali defeated ravana.But Rama killed such a great vali by a single arrow.So he will very easily kill Ravana also is what he tells indirectly to seetha.He knows that seetha is about to commit suicide and thus will be depressed.He removes that depression by such beautiful words.

Seetha still doubts Hanuman to be Ravana's man.But hanuman proceeds to describe Rama and gives his ring to seetha.Seetha's doubts are removed.She is in tears after seeing the ring.She feels like she got a new life.

Kamban describes seetha's mindset after seeing the ring as follows

இழந்த மணி புற்று அரவு எதிர்ந்தது எனல் ஆனாள்;
பழந் தனம் இழந்தன படைத்தவரை ஒத்தாள்;
குழந்தையை உயிர்த்த மலடிக்கு உவமை கொண்டாள்;
உழந்து விழி பெற்றது ஓர் உயிர்ப் பொறையும் ஒத்தாள்

She equalled a snake which lost its nagarathna and regained it.She equalled a richman who lost his wealth and regained it.Her happiness equalled that of a maladi who got a child,lost it and again regained it....

She says in gratitude to hanuman as follows

'உயிர் தந்தாய்!
உத்தம!' எனா, இனைய வாசகம் உரைத்தாள்: 70

'மும்மை ஆம் உலகம் தந்த முதல்வற்கும் முதல்வன் தூது ஆய்,
செம்மையால் உயிர் தந்தாய்க்குச் செயல் என்னால் எளியது உண்டே?
அம்மை ஆய், அப்பன் ஆய அத்தனே! அருளின் வாழ்வே!
இம்மையே மறுமைதானும் நல்கினை, இசையோடு' என்றாள். 71

'பாழிய பணைத் தோள் வீர! துணை இலேன் பரிவு தீர்த்த
வாழிய வள்ளலே! யான் மறு இலா மனத்தேன்என்னின்,
ஊழி ஓர் பகலாய் ஓதும் யாண்டு எலாம், உலகம் ஏழும்
ஏழும் வீவுற்ற ஞான்றும், இன்று என இருத்தி' என்றாள்.

Seetha calls hanuman as her father and mother.She blesses him with sirancheevi status.

Then we all know what happened.Hanuman consoles her,gets her soodamani and promises that Rama will come and save her within the one month time.

Then he wants to send a message to Ravana.He wants to psychologically to destroy the confidence of lankans.Otherwise if lankans hear that a money army is coming,they will laugh in contempt.But if he shows what his strength is,and later if lankans hear that a monkey army is coming they will tremble in fear.So he decides to destroy asoka vana and kill asura army and show his valor.

'மீட்டும் இனி, எண்ணும் வினை வேறும் உளதுஅன்றால்;
ஓட்டி இவ் அரக்கரை உலைத்து, என் வலி எல்லாம்
காட்டும் இதுவே கருமம்; அன்னவர் கடும் போர்
மூட்டும் வகை யாவதுகொல்?' என்று முயல்கின்றான். 5

'இப் பொழிலினைக் கடிது இறுக்குவென்; இறுத்தால்,
அப் பெரிய பூசல் செவி சார்தலும், அரக்கர்
வெப்புறு சினத்தர் எதிர் மேல்வருவர்; வந்தால்,
துப்பு உற முருக்கி, உயிர் உண்பல், இது சூதால்

He then destroys the asoka vana.Kamban gives beautiful descriptions of it.See the rhyme (ethukai monai) of these verses.

முடிந்தன; பிளந்தன; முரிந்தன; நெரிந்த;
மடிந்தன; பொடிந்தன; மறிந்தன; முறிந்த;
இடிந்தன; தகர்ந்தன; எரிந்தன; கரிந்த;
ஒடிந்தன; ஒசிந்தன; உதிர்ந்தன; பிதிர்ந்த. 9

வேரொடு மறிந்த சில; வெந்த சில; விண்ணில்
காரொடு செறிந்த சில; காலினொடு வேலைத்
தூரொடு பறிந்த சில; தும்பியொடு வானோர்
ஊரொடு மலைந்த சில; உக்க, சில நெக்க

Only because of such poetic verses kamban is hailed as kavi chakravarthy.The simility and rhymes in kamban's kaviyam are matchless.

viggop

27th July 2005, 10:09 AM

What hanuman thought was correct.Ravana thought very low of monkeys.When he destroyed asokavana,news is conveyed to Ravana.Ravana couldnt believe his ears."A monkey destroys asoka vana"?He wonders.He laughs in disbelief and smiles to himself.He thinks those who say like that are fools(mootas)."What happened to the might of rakshasas?They defeated devas but now they are afraid of a monkey?" he thinks in disbelief.He still doesnt believe the news.He thinks it to be some sort of joke.

'ஆடகத் தருவின் சோலை பொடி படுத்து, அரக்கர் காக்கும்
தேட அரு வேரம் வாங்கி, இலங்கையும் சிதைத்தது அம்மா!
கோடரம் ஒன்றே! நன்று இது! இராக்கதர் கொற்றம்! சொற்றல்
மூடரும் மொழியார்' என்ன மன்னனும் முறுவல் செய்தான்

But soon his disbelief became surprise.He himself heard the simma garjana of hanuman.

மண்தலம் கிழிந்த வாயில் மறி கடல் மோழை மண்ட,
எண் திசை சுமந்த மாவும், தேவரும் இரியல்போக,
தொண்டை வாய் அரக்கிமார்கள் சூல் வயிறு உடைந்து சோர,
'அண்டமும் பிளந்து விண்டது ஆம்' என, அனுமன் ஆர்த்தான்

what was the nature of that noise of hanuman?It equalled that of rama breaking shiva danusu.It entered 20 ears of Ravana and shook him writes kamban.

அரு வரை முழையில் முட்டும் அசனியின் இடிப்பும், ஆழி
வெருவரு முழக்கும், ஈசன் வில் இறும் ஒலியும், என்ன,
குரு மணி மகுட கோடி முடித் தலை குலுங்கும் வண்ணம்,
இருபது செவியினூடும் நுழைந்தது, அவ் எழுந்த ஓசை. 1

After hearing hanuman's roar Ravana became jealous writes kamban.Why did Ravana became jealous?Was it because of the valor of Hanuman?Was it because hanuman screamed louder than Ravana,who had 20 mouths?Or did he remember the roar of his brother kumbakarna?Did he think that hanuman roared louder than kumbakarna?

Ravana became jealous because he thought that Hanuman wasnt in his army.This roar would have made every opponent of his to tremble in fear.Maybe Ravana was jealous because he did not have such a mighty being in his army.

kamban says Ravana smiled to himself.He smiled because his opponent was a monkey.He thought it to be a divine fun."I opposed devas and even dared to fight against Indra and others.But now I have to send my armies against a monkey" he smiles.Then he becomes jealous.He also is curious to see such a creature.So he sends his army to capture hanuman alive.

"Dont kill it" he orders."just bring it to me without strangling it" he says.

புல்லிய முறுவல் தோன்ற, பொறாமையும் சிறிது பொங்க,
எல்லை இல் ஆற்றல் மாக்கள் எண் இறந்தாரை ஏவி,
'வல்லையின் அகலா வண்ணம், வானையும் வழியை மாற்றி,
கொல்லலிர் குரங்கை, நொய்தின் பற்றுதிர், கொணர்திர்' என்றான்

viggop

27th July 2005, 10:17 AM

Hi ALL

Please read this website

http://www.harimozhi.com/ListArticle.asp?lngArticleId=13

Very very intesresting analysis of Ramayana.

There is also a character study in English about Ramayana's characters.

Lot of other Tamil works have been discussed by the author.it is fantastic site !!!

viggop

28th July 2005, 10:35 AM

Very few writers in the world are blessed with art of describing war.It is easy to write love stories and to describe physical beauty.But very few can write great war epics like kalingathu parani.Very few authors like homer and vyasa were able to write war epics.

Kamban has this talent in abundance.His description of war is secondary to none.See the beauty of words which he uses to describe the war which hanuman fought with kingara's.

Ravana sent kingara's.They opposed hanuman.What happened to them?Kamban describes this beautifully.

வாள்கள் இற்றன; இற்றன வரி சிலை; வயிரத்
தோள்கள் இற்றன; இற்றன சுடர் மழுச் சூலம்;
நாள்கள் இற்றன; இற்றன நகை எயிற்று ஈட்டம்;
தாள்கள் இற்றன; இற்றன படையுடைத் தடக் கை. 31

தெறித்த வன் தலை; தெறித்தன செறி சுடர்க் கவசம்;
தெறித்த பைங் கழல்; தெறித்தன சிலம்பொடு பொலந் தார்;
தெறித்த பல் மணி; தெறித்தன பெரும் பொறித் திறங்கள்;
தெறித்த குண்டலம்; தெறித்தன கண் மணி சிதறி. 32

உக்க பற் குவை; உக்கன, துவக்கு எலும்பு உதிர்வுற்று;
உக்க முற்கரம்; உக்கன, முசுண்டிகள் உடைவுற்று;
உக்க சக்கரம்; உக்கன, உடல் திறந்து உயிர்கள்;
உக்க கப்பணம்; உக்கன, உயர் மணி மகுடம். 33

தாள்களால் பலர், தடக் கைகளால் பலர், தாக்கும்
தோள்களால் பலர், சுடர் விழியால் பலர், தொடரும்
கோள்களால் பலர், குத்துகளால் பலர், தம் தம்
வாள்களால் பலர், மரங்களினால் பலர்,-மடிந்தார். 34

ஈர்க்க, பட்டனர் சிலர்; சிலர் இடிப்புண்டு பட்டார்;
பேர்க்க, பட்டனர் சிலர்; சிலர் பிடியுண்டு பட்டார்;
ஆர்க்க, பட்டனர் சிலர்; சிலர் அடியுண்டு பட்டார்;
பார்க்க, பட்டனர் சிலர்; சிலர் பயமுண்டு பட்டார். 35

ஓடிக் கொன்றனன் சிலவரை; உடல் உடல்தோறும்
கூடிக் கொன்றனன் சிலவரை; கொடி நெடு மரத்தால்
சாடிக் கொன்றனன் சிலவரை; பிணம்தொறும் தடவித்
தேடிக் கொன்றனன் சிலவரை-கறங்கு எனத் திரிவான். 36

முட்டினார் பட, முட்டினான்; முறை முறை முடுகிக்
கிட்டினார் பட, கிட்டினான்; கிரி என நெருங்கிக்
கட்டினார் பட, கட்டினான்; கைகளால் மெய்யில்
தட்டினார் பட, தட்டினான்-மலை எனத் தகுவான்

viggop

28th July 2005, 10:36 AM

See the simility of the following verses.Kamban compares hanuman destroying asuras as follows.

மேகம் ஒத்தனர்-மாருதி வெய்யவன் ஒத்தான்

கலங்கும்
கடல் நிகர்த்தனர்-மாருதி மந்தரம் கடுத்தான்

ஒழிவு இலா நிருதர்
ஆனை ஒத்தனர்-ஆள் அரி ஒத்தனன் அனுமன்

Kamban says asuras equalled clouds and hanuman equalled sun god who pierces these clouds and comes out of them.

Asuras equalled the milky occean and hanuman equalled a plunger that churned the milky occean.

Asuras equalled elephents and hanuman equalled the lion that hunted those huge elephents.

Great simile(uvamai) by kamban.Only for such poetic words he is called as kavi chakravarthy.
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How many asuras died?Nobody knews.But these asuras were ready to consume poison if ravana ordered so.Every kingara perished in the war writes kamban.

எஞ்சல் இல் கணக்கு அறிந்திலம்; இராவணன் ஏவ,
நஞ்சம் உண்டவராம் என அனுமன்மேல் நடந்தார்;
துஞ்சினார் அல்லது யாவரும் மறத்தொடும் தொலைவுற்று,
எஞ்சினார் இல்லை; அரக்கரில் வீரர் மற்று யாரே

The guards who saw this ran and conveyed the news to Ravana.What will they say to him?what can they say?This is the first defeat news Ravana is hearing.Ravana has never heard before that his army was defeated.

வந்த கிங்கரர் 'ஏ' எனும் மாத்திரை மடிந்தார்;
நந்தவானத்து நாயகர் ஓடினர், நடுங்கி,
பிந்து காலினர், கையினர்; பெரும் பயம் பிடரின்
உந்த, ஆயிரம் பிணக் குவைமேல் விழுந்து உளைவார்

'Within one second all these kingaras were eliminated' writes kamban.Within 'one mathirai' (one second) kingara army was wiped off.The guards of asoka vana shivered in fear.They ran in confusion.Their shoulders were forced by unknown fear.They ran or mountains of corpses.

விரைவின் உற்றனர்; விம்மினர்; யாது ஒன்றும் விளம்பார்;
கரதலத்தினால், பட்டதும், கட்டுரைக்கின்றார்;
தரையில் நிற்கிலர்; திசைதொறும் நோக்கினர், சலிப்பார்;

'They ran and stood dumbfounded before Ravana.They did not say anything.What can they say?They looked at all directions and cried.

viggop

28th July 2005, 10:37 AM

Dontinuing disbelief:

Ravana had a very bad opinion on monkeys and humans.He did not even ask bhramma that he shouldnt be killed by humans.'What can they do 'was his opinion.So while he held such an opinion on humans,he would have held even less opinion on monkeys.Vali earlier shattered that opinion,but Ravana managed to dismiss that from his mind somehow.Now he is getting reminded of that vali incident.The humiliating defeat he suffered in hands of vali must be playting in his mind.

He refuses to believe that his massive army was destroyed.He doesnt see the monkey captured before him.Hence he knows that his army has disobeyed him.But he isnt able to figure out how.He couldnt believe that a monkey could have killed his army.So he considers various alternatives in his disbelief.He asks guards as follows

'இறந்து நீங்கினரோ? இன்று, என் ஆணையை இகழ்ந்து
துறந்து நீங்கினரோ? அன்றி, வெஞ் சமர் தொலைந்தார்
மறந்து நீங்கினரோ? என்கொல் வந்தது?' என்று உரைத்தான் -
நிறம் செருக்குற, வாய்தொறும் நெருப்பு உமிழ்கின்றான்

"Did they disobey me by dying?Or did they ran away without obeying my orders?Or did they forget warfare and disobey me?What happened?" roared Ravana with fire in his mouth.

Guards replied that the massive army was killed by monkey.Ravana is unable to believe this.When this incident happened devas were working as slaves under him.They too hear this news.Ravana is ashamed because of this fact.He feels ashamed that devas knew this ignominy writes kamban.

ஏவலின் எய்தினர் இருந்த எண் திசைத்
தேவரை நோக்கினான், நாணும் சிந்தையான்;
'யாவது என்று அறிந்திலிர் போலுமால்?' என்றான் -
மூவகை உலகையும் விழுங்க மூள்கின்றான்

viggop

28th July 2005, 10:37 AM

ravana is infuriated.He sends sambulami to capture hanuman.But still he retains that curiosity.He doesnt want this mighty monkey to be killed.So he asks sambulami to capture it alive.

கூம்பின கையன், நின்ற குன்று எனக் குவவுத் திண் தோள்,
பாம்பு இவர் தறுகண், சம்புமாலி என்பவனைப் பாரா,
'வாம் பரித் தானையோடு வளளத்து, அதன் மறனை மாற்றி,
தாம்பினின் பற்றி, தந்து, என் மனச் சினம் தணித்தி' என்றான்.

Sambumali started off with a massive army.

viggop

29th July 2005, 10:10 AM

Sambumali goes with a massive army to oppose hanuman.What a massive army it was.Just see the variety of weapons it carried.

தோமரம், உலக்கை, கூர் வாள், சுடர் மழு, குலிசம், தோட்டி,
தாம் அரம் தின்ற கூர் வேல், தழல் ஒளி வட்டம், சாபம்,
காமர் தண்டு, எழுக்கள், காந்தும் கப்பணம், கால பாசம்,
மா மரம், வலயம், வெங் கோல், முதலிய வயங்க மாதோ

See the type of military men who went with him.Archers,rakshasas who can operate vinjai(battling Rams),raksasas with shoulders as strong as diamonds,rakshasas with golden armors,charioters

வில் மறைக் கிழவர்; நானா விஞ்சையர்; வரத்தின் மிக்கார்;
வன் மறக் கண்ணர்; ஆற்றல் வரம்பு இலா வயிரத் தோளார்;
தொல் மறக் குலத்தர்; தூணி தூக்கிய புறத்தர்; மார்பின்
கல் மறைத்து ஒளிரும் செம் பொன் கவசத்தர்-கடுந் தேர் ஆட்கள்

Such an army went to oppose hanuman.How did Hanuman face them?See the simility(uvamai) used by kamban here.

நந்தனவனத்துள் நின்ற நாயகன் தூதன்தானும்,
'வந்திலர் அரக்கர்' என்னும் மனத்தினன், வழியை நோக்கி,
சந்திரன் முதல வான மீன் எலாம் தழுவ நின்ற
இந்திர தனுவின் தோன்றும் தோரணம் இவர்ந்து, நின்றான்.

'Hanuman eagerly awaited them' writes kamban.'Here they come' he thought happily.He appeared like the indra danusu(Rainbow) that covered the entire sky including moon and stars.

கேழ் இரு மணியும் பொன்னும், விசும்பு இருள் கிழித்து நீக்கும்,
ஊழ் இருங் கதிர்களோடும் தோரணத்து உம்பர் மேலான்,
சூழ் இருங் கதிர்கள் எல்லாம் தோற்றிடச் சுடரும் சோதி,
ஆழியன் நடுவண் தோன்றும் அருக்கனே அனையன் ஆனான்

Like how the rays of sun defeat rays of darkness and appear from the sea like a ray of Gold,hanuman appeared similiar to that adithya among the dark army of asuras writes kamban.

viggop

29th July 2005, 10:10 AM

செல்லொடு மேகம் சிந்த, திரைக் கடல் சிலைப்புத் தீர,
கல் அளைக் கிடந்த நாகம் உயிரொடு விடமும் கால,
கொல் இயல் அரக்கர் நெஞ்சில் குடி புக அச்சம், வீரன்
வில் என இடிக்க, விண்ணோர் நடுக்குற, வீரன் ஆர்த்தான். 17

நின்றன திசைக்கண் வேழம் நெடுங் களிச் செருக்கு நீங்க,
தென் திசை நமனும் உள்ளம் துணுக்கென, சிந்தி வானில்
பொன்றல் இல் மீன்கள் எல்லாம் பூ என உதிர, பூவும்
குன்றமும் பிளக்க, வீரன் புயத்திடைக் கொட்டி ஆர்த்தான்

Hanuman roared.What was the nature of that roar?Clouds that passed in sky shed rain water in fear,Snakes that slept deep inside mountains shed their life as well as their poison hearing that thunderous noise (In tamil we have a saying 'Idi osai ketta nagam' -meaning snakes shiver in fear hearing thunder)

That roar equalled noise from kothanda,devas shivered,astadig gajas stopped their movement in fear,even yema of south trembled in fear,stars fell down like flowers,mountains broke open..........

What a word game?priceless....

viggop

29th July 2005, 10:11 AM

Asuras too roared like a wavy occean writes kamban.They werent afraid.But their problem was how to reach hanuman?Corpses of kingaras were around hanuman like an occean.How to cross that occean?Kamban writes "பிணப் பெருங் குன்றம் " stood inbetween asuras and hanuman

அவ் வழி, அரக்கர் எல்லாம், அலை நெடுங் கடலின் ஆர்த்தார்;
செவ் வழிச் சேறல் ஆற்றார், பிணப் பெருங் குன்றம் தெற்றி,
வெவ் வழி குருதி வெள்ளம் புடை மிடைந்து உயர்ந்து வீங்க,
'எவ் வழிச் சேறும்' என்றார்; தமர் உடம்பு இடறி வீழ்வார்

viggop

29th July 2005, 10:11 AM

Again see the war descriptions of kamban.Sarswathi devi sits in his mouth and writes these descriptions it seems.Actually it wasnt much of a war.There was only total destruction.all 4 types of armies of sambumali were destroyed within seconds.

ஒடிந்தன; உருண்டன; உலந்தன; புலந்த;
இடிந்தன; எரிந்தன; நெரிந்தன; எழுந்த;
மடிந்தன; மறிந்தன; முறிந்தன; மலைபோல்,
படிந்தன; முடிந்தன; கிடந்தன-பரி மா. 28

வெகுண்டனர், வியந்தனர், விழுந்தனர், எழுந்தார்;
மருண்டனர், மயங்கினர், மறிந்தனர், இறந்தார்;
உருண்டனர், உலைந்தனர், உழைத்தனர், பிழைத்தார்;
சுருண்டனர், புரண்டார், தொலைந்தனர்;-மலைந்தார்

VINI,VIDI,VICI....simple.(went,saw,conquered..)

viggop

29th July 2005, 10:12 AM

கரிகொடு கரிகளைக் களப் படப் புடைத்தான்;
பரிகொடு பரிகளைத் தலத்திடைப் படுத்தான்;

Hanuman banged elephents against each other and horses against each other.

He kicked them like rudhra says kamban.

ஒறுத்து, உருத்திரன் என, தனித் தனி உதைத்தான்

seeing this sambumali became mad in rage.His massive charriot couldnt swim in the occean of blood.Now only he was left to fight this mount matterhorn.Sambumali wasnt afraid.But hanuman took pity on him and asked him to leave.

உடன் வந்தாரைக் காக்கும் நிலை இல்லாய்!
சாதி; அன்றேல், பிறிது என் செய்தி? அவர் பின் தனி நின்றாய்!
போதி' என்றான் -பூத்த மரம்போல் புண்ணால் பொலிகின்றான்

"sambumali,you had the duty of saving your army.Now you dont have that duty because you dont have any army.You now stand alone.So go" said hanuman.His body glowed with bloody wounds like a tree with red flowers says kamban.

This only infuriated sambumali."To hell with your mercy" he thundered."Did you think me as a coward?" he thundered and sent 10,100 and 100,000 arrows

'நன்று, நன்று, உன் கருணை!' என்னா, நெருப்பு நக நக்கான்;
'பொன்றுவாரின் ஒருவன் என்றாய் போலும் எனை' என்னா,
வன் திண் சிலையின் வயிரக் காலால், வடித் திண் சுடர் வாளி,
ஒன்று, பத்து, நூறு, நூறாயிரமும், உதைப்பித்தான்

Hanuman laughed.He took pity on this kid.But now he had no option.Sambumali was killed.(I wont describe it..gruesome)

சலித்தான் ஐயன்; கையால், எய்யும் சரத்தை உகச் சாடி,
ஒலித் தார் அமரர் கண்டார் ஆர்ப்ப, தேரினுள் புக்கு,
கலித்தான் சிலையைக் கையால் வாங்கி, கழுத்தினிடை இட்டு
வலித்தான், பகு வாய் மடித்து மலைபோல் தலை மண்ணிடை வீழ.

viggop

29th July 2005, 10:14 AM

Now the ritual continued.As usual guards run and say this news to Ravana.Actually ravana knew this already by wailings of Rakshasa women.Whole lanka was full of wailings writes kamban.So ravana already knew this news before guards told this to him.He just waits to get the official confirmation.Gurads then run to him and confirm this news.Ravana already has lost all his patience and rational thinking.He is impatient.He himself is ready to fight that monkey.

பரிந்து புலம்பும் மகளிர் காண, கணவர் பிணம் பற்றி,
விரிந்த குருதிப் பேராறு ஈர்த்து மனைகள்தொறும் வீச,
இரிந்தது இலங்கை; எழுந்தது அழுகை; 'இன்று, இங்கு, இவனாலே
சரிந்தது, அரக்கர் வலி' என்று எண்ணி, அறமும் தளிர்த்ததால்.

"Dharma flowered thinking that adharma will collapse by hanuman" says kamban.Dharma was in hiding,but now it blossomed.Hundreds and thousands of rakshasis cried.That echoed all over lanka.

Ravana hears this.He has lost all him smile.No more "muruval" and "poramai".""This monkey now is a major threat.Nomore sending kingaras and generals."I myself will go" decides Ravana.

He just wants to know what happened to sambumali,who was his close relative.Guards run in as usual with tears and shiver.Ravanas hunch is confirmed.He knew even before the guards uttered a word what happened.

'He laughs in pain' writes kamban.It was in line of valluvan's "Idukkan varungal naguga".He laughs at the big joke.A monkey kills his army and sambumali.Will anybody believe it?What a joke....a cruel joke indeed.

He sees guards shivering without saying anything.They weep in pain and shiver in fear.He guesses what they have to say."Dont shiver" he says with a big laugh.Guards stop shivering.

Then they say the dreaded words.Ravana isnt bothered.He doesnt worry anymore.There is only one thought in his mind.Revenge,pure revenge

He stands up with determination.The instant his hunch was confirmed he stood up with a boiling mind and blood oozing eyes.

"I myself will capture that monkey" he says.He doesnt want to lose anybody.He doesnt want to trust anybody.Not even kumbakarna or indrajith.He himself will go.Even now he doesnt want to kill it.He wants to see it and find out what sort of a being it is.

சம்புமாலி இறந்த செய்தியைக் காவலர் இராவணனுக்கு அறிவித்தல்

புக்கார் அமரர், பொலந் தார் அரக்கன் பொரு இல் பெருங் கோயில்
விக்காநின்றார்; விளம்பல் ஆற்றார்; வெருவி விம்முவார்;
நக்கான் அரக்கன்; 'நடுங்கல்' என்றான்; 'ஐய! நமர் எல்லாம்
உக்கார்; சம்புவாலி உலந்தான்; ஒன்றே குரங்கு' என்றார்

என்னும் அளவில், எரிந்து வீங்கி எழுந்த வெகுளியான்,
உன்ன, உன்ன, உதிரக் குமிழி விழியூடு உமிழ்கின்றான்,
'சொன்ன குரங்கை, யானே பிடிப்பென், கடிது தொடர்ந்து' என்றான்,
அன்னது உணர்ந்த சேனைத் தலைவர் ஐவர் அறிவித்தார்

(Actually in whole of lanka there were only two man who could have defeated hanuman.One was indrajith and the other was kumbakarna.Hanuman loses to these two men in different occasions and for different reasons.But this is yet to happen.)

Now Ravana is erupting like a volcano.He wants to fight the war himself.But can his generals let him do so?Isnt it an insult to them?So they start their speech.

Raghu

29th July 2005, 05:01 PM

Dear viggop

Of late I am very busy at work, pls keep up ur excellent work!!

Surya

31st July 2005, 01:31 AM

Same here. Keep it up Viggop! :thumbsup:

viggop

1st August 2005, 05:11 PM

1 doubt on Ramayana
Before Rama, we have heard that Vali defeated Ravana.

I read somewhere that there was another person who also defeated Ravana? Who is this? Anyone knows this story?

Hari Krishnan

1st August 2005, 05:52 PM

Dear Viggop,

It was Kartha-viryarjuna. Here is my old article on the incident.

http://chennaionline.com/festivalsnreligion/religion/religion560.asp

And the attempted 'bala-pariksha' with Vali is narrated in:

http://chennaionline.com/festivalsnreligion/religion/religion561.asp

Good to be back in the old ForumHub with a new look.

anbudan,
Hari Krishnan

viggop

1st August 2005, 06:59 PM

Dear HariKrishnan Sir
Very happy to know that you are here. :-)

I have mentioned your site
www.harimozhi.com in both ramayana and mahabharatham threads.

When I read the character analysis of Ramayanam characters in English, I had tears in my eyes.They were simply excellent.

Hari Krishnan

1st August 2005, 10:02 PM

Is this Yayathi related to the Yayathi of Mahabharatha?

it cannot be because mahabharatha was a different yugam altogether. :-)

Dear Viggop:

It is the same Yayati. One has to look at the epics as a chain of events. The story of Mahabharata starts with Yayati. I counted the number of generations from Yayati to Pandavas/Kauravas some years back. This genealogy is given in Srimad Bhagavata Mahapurana. (Book Nine.) The Pandavas/Kauravas are about 48 generations away from Yayati. My count is rough and approximate. Assuming an average of 30 years per generation, one has to realise that they are separated by more than 1500 years. :-) This is a very modest assumption, considering the longevity they enjoyed. (It may be interesting to note that Dharmaputra must have been at least about 70 years old when the war started!)

Badri

2nd August 2005, 07:31 AM

1 doubt on Ramayana
Before Rama, we have heard that Vali defeated Ravana.

I read somewhere that there was another person who also defeated Ravana? Who is this? Anyone knows this story?

Vamana!

The story goes that Ravana in trying to win all the worlds also goes to Pathala, where king Mahabali is ruling. When Vamana became Trivikrama and vanquished the king, he also gave him a boon. He blessed Mahabali to be a Chiranjeevi, and made him ruler of the netherworlds, and also promised him that he himself (Vamana) would be the gatekeeper of Mahabali's kingdom (as a placatory offering for the injustice in sending him to the Netherworlds).

So when Ravana goes to meet Bali in war, he is defeated by the little dwarf who guards Bali's gate!!

viggop

2nd August 2005, 10:56 AM

Thanks Badri.Never heard of this story though.
Vamana is of course an Vishnu avatar, so Vishnu himself defeated Ravana just like Shiva's toe crushed Ravana's arrogance when he lifted the Kailash.

viggop

2nd August 2005, 10:57 AM

Harikrishnan Sir also mentions a battle of Ravana with Yama where Brahma saved Ravana.I have not heard this story too.

Hari Krishnan

2nd August 2005, 11:22 AM

I have never heard of the stroy Badri narrates. Neither the Valmiki Ramayana, nor the Kamba Ramayana nor the Uttara Kanda of Ottakkuthar has a story to this effect. Anyway, let's hope Badri would be able to inform us of the source of the story.

Viggops, the battle between Ravana and Yama is narrated in the Uttara Kanda of Ramayana.

viggop

3rd August 2005, 10:06 AM

Harikirshnan Sir
Please tell us more abt this battle with Yama and Ravana.I have never heard of this story.

Hari Krishnan

3rd August 2005, 10:41 AM

Here it is Viggops:

"Escapes death for the first time"
http://chennaionline.com/festivalsnreligion/religion/religion557.asp

There are 107 instalments on Ravana written in ChennaiOnline, from the origins of his race, his birth, how he came to be known as Ravana, and a detailed character study, commencing from

"Greatness without goodness"
http://chennaionline.com/festivalsnreligion/religion/religion545.asp

You may commence from this and keep clicking on the link 'Next' given under each article to navigate to the next article. These are yet to be uploaded to harimozhi.com.