Living in the past...

[jaiganes]

Simon says...
We invented zero so we are not backward.
We invented the pi. so we are not backward.
We had great stories and epics, so we are light years ahead of everybody else.

Robert says...
We invented sati, so we are backward and third world.
We have child labour so we are backward and we are third world.
We give only men the rights to do final rites, so we are backward.
We discriminate based on where and in which family one is born, so we are light years behind the world.

I say, We might have had a glorious past. However we had enough poison to spoil everything. Should we be proud of our ancient heritage or in our modern outlook where we run extra mile an extra hour everyday to catch up with the fast progressing modern world? Tell me friends where do you want to be? in ancient Bharath or modern India?

[scorpio]

JG,

It is just a matter of 18 more days.. you'll understand how glorious 'Past' was... :wink: :lol:

[Cinefan]

Jai,the fact is we might have had a glorious past but we seem to have no pride in that.Instead referring to the glorious past is seen as a shame.With such an attitude we have a become a rootless soceity.Added to that over a period of time we have degenerated& picked up every bad habit in the book.The result of all that is the corrupt,indisciplined,rowdy,selfish soceity we are seeing.Where do I want to be,not in the past(I have no experience of how life was there),definitely not in the present but in a land where people don't demand extra money for doing their job,where opportunities are available in villages,small towns&towns so that cities are not overflowing with people resulting in destruction of nature&causing infrastructural problems,where the political leadership actually responds to people's concerns instead of disgustingly fighting among themselves a la Devegowda Vs Congress,where people's ambitions are channelised into achieving something instead of getting limited to buying flats,cars&flaunting their wealth,where people don't come to the streets trying to prove their language,race,caste etc is superior.In fact I can go on&on.All this can happen only with collective efforts over a looooooooooong period of time.But when will the start happen?

[Cinefan]

JG,

It is just a matter of 18 more days.. you'll understand how glorious 'Past' was... :wink: :lol:

Why are you pulling that poor guys leg akka?Marriage has its share of pros&cons.He will see only the pros for a few months&then the cons will start appearing.But still married life is a different feeling for both the husband&wife.It involves lot of compromises from both.There will be times when you feel being alone was much better.But the charm of marriage is so strong that such thoughts get banished very soon.

Jai,take it me,ignore these discouraging people&have a blast.Best of luck. :D

[Idiappam]

JG,

It is just a matter of 18 more days.. you'll understand how glorious 'Past' was... :wink: :lol:

You into astrology too! Oh dear!

[nirosha sen]

:lol: Idiappam - JG is getting married Pa!! That's what the leg-pulling is all abt. He calls it, "anbu chang-gali"!!

[scorpio]

JG,

It is just a matter of 18 more days.. you'll understand how glorious 'Past' was... :wink: :lol:

You into astrology too! Oh dear!

Idiappam anne,

Idhu astrology ille.. pure facts combined with logical thinking and practical experience.. :lol:

[Idiappam]

Ah! Jai, you getting the kaal kattu?? OK! Please come here often! At least once a month!

Vaazhga Pallaandu!

[lordstanher]

I say, We might have had a glorious past. However we had enough poison to spoil everything. Should we be proud of our ancient heritage or in our modern outlook where we run extra mile an extra hour everyday to catch up with the fast progressing modern world? Tell me friends where do you want to be? in ancient Bharath or modern India?

JG,
at the outset, congrats! :D Wish u a happy married life (btw, pardon my curiosity- idhu luv-a arranged-a?? :wink: )
OK....coming to ur qsn., no doubt u've posed a very thought-provoking qsn. indeed!
And personally, my answer has/is/will always be- to be in "modern" India by all means (not poss' to go back to "ancient Bharath" neways, unless u got a time-machine :wink: )......but also preserve/maintain watever important and beneficial aspects of our culture tat we know of and find to be leading us in a right path......and maintain a balance between the two! :wink:
Thus this will ensure tat while we still hav to "run an extra mile an extra hour to catch up w/ the progressive modern world", we shall also not belittle our significant and/or unique traditions and other cultural aspects in the name of "keeping up with the changing world" or "making progress"......only to ultimately turn ourselves into a "rootless society" as aptly described by Cinefan! :D
A couple of quotes tat I incidentally remembered- "Open ur arms to change but don't let go of ur values."
"U can shed ur leaves but not ur roots."
A very important thing tat the present/future gens. must understand!

[jaiganes]

Dear lordstanher!
Mine is an arranged traditional marriage.
Traditions are just a collections of practices that have held on to a society from the past. At no point should we be weighed down by them
What we are today is a result of an iterative process of social and religious reforms that we have been doing for some time. So at no point of time are we worser than our past. Our present includes our past simultaneously. So there is no need to instill artificial pride in the name of our past. That is my point.

[Cinefan]

Dear lordstanher!
Mine is an arranged traditional marriage.
Traditions are just a collections of practices that have held on to a society from the past. At no point should we be weighed down by them
What we are today is a result of an iterative process of social and religious reforms that we have been doing for some time. So at no point of time are we worser than our past. Our present includes our past simultaneously. So there is no need to instill artificial pride in the name of our past. That is my point.

Artificial pride????Sorry Jai,I don't get it.If for example your grand pa was a lawyer par excellence&you say so now to all your friends does it mean your pride is artificial? :?Progress gets retarded only when the past is harped upon at every instance belittling the good things happening now.
I agree that we are what we are today(sorry for the unintended rhyme)as a result of our own actions but it's futile to say we are better or worse than before as apart from references there is no first hand info on how life was before.The max comparison can be done between the 1920's&now if some person(like grand dad)are alive today.They will also tell you that the quality of life,technology,facilities have improved tremendously but man's basic nature,the kind of political leadership has become bad.The key is to balance material,technological advancement with politiness,courtesy,selflesseness,discipline&respect for others.

BTW,Bangalore-le reception/party ellam kadaiyatha.Nangalellam eppadi wish panradham-telephone greetings,SMS,greetings thro courier thaana? :D

[jaiganes]

Cinefan anna wrote:

If for example your grand pa was a lawyer par excellence&you say so now to all your friends does it mean your pride is artificial?
Good analogy. But to say I will become like my grandpa is one thing, and to say i will be my grandpa is another thing. Also the grandpa (Ancient glory) in this case has not been all that excellent. We have better society today than the times of our grandpa. Women have more freedom, various self degenerating systems of oppression and discrimination have atleast legally been thrown off and even the poorest of poor gets to vote and choose the person who is going to lead the country (directly or indirectly. Luckily it is not the elephant with garland).

We see that our achievments of the past together with our fumblings were all set inside religious teachings and writings of poems. Apart from this we don't have any proof that we did such and such a thing at so and so date.

cinefan anna also wrote:

but man's basic nature,the kind of political leadership has become bad
Well that it was even in the glory days. Infact Mahabharatha was an epic which highlighted how the most cunning wins. How many deceipts and drudgery were committed then? What about Kautilya(chanakya)'s cunning ways? Were they not more macabre than today's politician's evil ways? Only difference is today this game is anybody's game while in the days goneby it was a playing field of only a few previleged ones.

In all these aspects I say confidently that we are a bigger, better country compared to the scattered pieces of fiefdoms that we were back in the glorious days. I have no issues accepting the golden age of any kingdom in ancient india, however to say that reading some ancient story again will solve our current problems is a touch too much for me to digest. The best we can do is to separate the good aspects of our hey day from the really nasty ones and stick to it. Classic example is what we are doing with yoga. We have completely separated it from religion and practising it in its true spirit. Similarly we can do more research and if something good comes out of our culture of yore it is well and good.
However as we dig we may find some nauseating details which we should not push under the carpet and be ready to face those ones too. The problem is we see more people that say "Oh we did this 20000 years earlier" , however they are more silent when mention of a vast section was condemned to a life worser than hell in the past.
Bottom line "Dont claim you were the only smart one around" or else uncomfortable facts will emerge to make you eat a humble pie.

[jaiganes]

Cinefan anna wrote:

BTW,Bangalore-le reception/party ellam kadaiyatha.Nangalellam eppadi wish panradham-telephone greetings,SMS,greetings thro courier thaana?
Bangalore reception has to be decided upon return to bangalore. I may host a get together , however my fiancee has to be consulted regarding that. It would be a simple affair and I will post details once i get a clear picture.

[Cinefan]

Jai,it seems you are being selective in your recollection of history.There was a time when women had much more freedom than they have now.The caste system is also the result of a select few tweaking the system to their own benefit over a period of time.Also the system still exists,only the caste of the oppressor has changed.If getting excited over the glorious past is wrong so is completely denying it.I don't think you can compare Chanakya&the Mahabharatha to the Dharam Singh's,Deve gowda's&Laloo prasad's of today.Don't deny the positives of the history,also don't deny the negatives,Instead learn from the mistakes our ancestors committed.Is that happening today,NO.We are committing far more mistakes of the worser kind.

[jaiganes]

Dear cinefan.
I am not denying the fact that we might have had a glorious past. I dont deny it at all. But what good is the glory if all the benefits went only to a select few based on birth? As far as the instances where women were very free . I do not know when was this period. I doubt if they were so independant as they are today. In short i am not denying past of India. I have seen many grand monuments around the country. I am more concerned with the chanting of getting back to the "golden age of the past". This 58 years have been the most liberated and proud phases of India. WE have more things to be proud of ourselves now than any time in the past. I guess you cannot deny that.

[nirosha sen]

Well, the Indian populace has certainly increased, bursting the Mother at her seams, as opposed to the days of yore!!

The masses are fighting for more space than they did before. Therefore, the pressure it puts on land mass itself, is certainly something to ponder and mourn, Pa!! :cry:

No doubt, everyone can take comfort that it's happening everywhere else too, but the present scenario with India as most populous in the world, is no comfortable tag to bear!

[Cinefan]

Jai,when I talk about the freedom women enjoyed earlier,I am referring to the time when a woman(married)could actually spend a night with a man she liked&come back to her husband-no questions asked.Though I am unable to come up with the references right away I am sure that such a freedom existed.Can something like that be imagined now,it would be called adultary&a divorce application will be filed :D .There has been so much moral policing&conditioning of the mind that such a thing is designated wrong by today's soceity.We also have the instance of a woman debating&defeating Adi Shankara in an argument after her husband lost a debate with him.I am sure with time more such instances can be recalled.The subjucation of women actually started with the various invasions of this country-their security was taken away,they were raped,bundled into 'harems'.So to protect them rules like they should not come out,their face should be covered etc were formed.Unfortunately people failed to understand the circumstances under which such rules were framed&it became a standard.As for the caste system,there was no rigidity.Every person had a role to play in soceity&there was equal respect.Is it not a fact that a soceity requires a Pandit as much as a Ruler&a cobbler?The problem started when a section developed superiority complex&began to discriminate against others denying them opportunities to enhance their knowledge..This degenerated furthur&caused divisions in soceity leaving a scar on people's personalities.But how much has modern India mitigated this problem.As I mentioned before only the caste of the oppressor has changed.people who came to power calling themselves saviours have now become the new exploiters.So how fair is it to still blame a particular caste for all the ills plaguing soceity.Also a strange phenomen has developed wherein anyone talking about the glorious past is labelled a RSS man&trying to advance brahmin hegemony.You don't like the RSS&the Brahmins,So any achievement made in the field of medicine,science,astronomy etc by them is labelled false&bogus.In fact this is also perpetuating(spelling right?) the caste system.You don't like a particular caste,so you deny the significant contributions they have made to soceity.

To end I will repeat what I said before in the thread,I want to live in a India which looks upto past achievements with pride,learns from the mistakes&tries to make society a better place to livein.This requires a collective effort for a long period of time.

[jaiganes]

Dear cinefan,
If women were so free and were oppressed to safe guard during times of invasion, why did they lose social status? Why they did not enjoy property rights then? In another thread a learned hubber was saying that they are always dependant. How childish to say such things in this age? If you observe, we have shed off so many idiotic ideas of the past and whatever we are having , we see more than 30% are there only for the sake of "tradition" and in 10 years from now, we will be throwing 10% of this also to dustbins. We may reclaim 5% of the things that are useful in those 10 years. It would be hitherto undiscovered Ayurvedic texts and so on. However that does not mean that our undated past in which our ancestors lived gloriously is the best model of living.
If what you say about classification of people based on work is so true, then our ancestors are really crooked. I am a brahmin myself and I am ashamed of the "glorious past" . Simply because we might have put men on moon in our past, but we oppressed millions of people because of their race, colour, caste etc., Had I been an Egyptian, I would have still felt ashamed for the slaves of my "glorious ancestors". Had I been a greek, I would have still felt ashamed for the state of slaves in my ancestor's period.
Of the oppression that you are seeing, it is a part of fighting for the pie in the social reforms benefits. This is a churning process. With better education, you will see gradual decline in such things and soon we would have completed the social reforms one full cycle. It is much better than opppression through a socio-religious decree in my opinion.

To end I will repeat what I said before in the thread,I want to live in a India which looks upto past achievements with pride,learns from the mistakes&tries to make society a better place to livein.This requires a collective effort for a long period of time.
Same sentiments here. However the evils of the "glorious past" aren't driven out completely and are lurching around in the corner waiting for an opportunity. My fear is that we may provide just that in a platter in trying to decry the "pseudo - secularists" like our honble, Union HRD minister.

[Cinefan]

Jai,We seem to share the same sentiments on the kind of India we want to live in,the differences lie in the intrepetation of history.let me write my last post on this particular dimension of the discussion before moving on.Surely there are more angles to the topic of this thread.

At every stage a soceity faces different circumstances.People react to that in a particular way or different ways.Looking back we might feel, that was not the way to do it.The key is not to just harp on the mistakes but learn from them.Whether it is women's subjugation or the caste system,certain standards were set because it suited the period.ideally when the circumstances changed,soceity also should have evolved.That didn't happen,instead power which was in the hands of a few(due to circumstances)corrupted them&they abused the system furthur.There is no denying that.But I don't agree with your "part of the fight for the social pie'argument simply because I strongly believe that this is also a case of power corrupting.Social reform will happen only with honest administrators,not with petty minded rulers.But I am sure there will be a revolt&finally this country will be ruled by able people elected by an educated,sensible population which won't be swayed by emotions like caste,sub caste,religion,language etc etc.But will we be alive to see that day,I don't know.

Can we move on,do you or anyone else have different thoughts on this topic apart from what we have discussed till now?

[lordstanher]

Traditions are just a collections of practices that have held on to a society from the past. At no point should we be weighed down by them

Weighed down?? Not any way I can think of at the present, JG ;-)
Tat by giving up our respective traditions in the name of becoming 'modern' by comparing ourselves w/ 'developed' nations and tat we'll attain the same progress tat they did w/out traditions is by & large a myth.
The present gen. shud realise tat we r where we r mainly bcos of the deficiency of ne urge/desire in our leaders to accept ne know-how/innovation from developed nations to raise the standards of living in our nation, and not bcos we stuck to certain long-standing traditions.....tat has nothing to do w/ the former. :D
For tat matter, most of today's gen. r doing away w/ all these but how far r we progressing bcos of tat?


What we are today is a result of an iterative process of social and religious reforms that we have been doing for some time. So at no point of time are we worse than our past. Our present includes our past simultaneously. So there is no need to instill artificial pride in the name of our past. That is my point.

I agree w/ u in this regard. However, u wud agree tat there is no need to instill pride (artificial or even otherwise) in the name of our 'progressive' present either? :wink:

[lordstanher]

Don't deny the positives of the history,also don't deny the negatives,Instead learn from the mistakes our ancestors committed.Is that happening today,NO. We are committing far more mistakes of the worse kind.

Exactly! :D this true esp. w/ respect to the youngsters of today, who see it as an indignation to believe in all these 'rusty old values' tat most of them grew up with!

[lordstanher]

people who came to power calling themselves saviours have now become the new exploiters.

Another solid point! :D
Unfortunately when this is pointed out, the majority of the society, in the name of secularity, refuse to acknowledge it! :(


Also a strange phenomen has developed wherein anyone talking about the glorious past is labelled a RSS man&trying to advance brahmin hegemony. In fact this is also perpetuating(spelling right?) the caste system.You don't like a particular caste,so you deny the significant contributions they have made to soceity.

Absolutely correct! Its only when we hav the self-acceptance of this flaw of ours then we can hope for self-improvement.


I want to live in a India which looks upto past achievements with pride,learns from the mistakes&tries to make society a better place to livein.This requires a collective effort for a long period of time.

My sentiments exactly! :D

[lordstanher]

If women were so free and were oppressed to safe guard during times of invasion, why did they lose social status? Why they did not enjoy property rights then?

JG,
I think the answer to tat wud be the implementation of Manu's code, which has since been ingrained into the mindset of our society, esp. the men.
In Manu Smriti, Manu had stated various negative generalisations against women, deeming them untrustworthy and treacherous, and declining them rights to education and property. Unftly most of it still being followed by ppl. here & there in our society.


If you observe, we have shed off so many idiotic ideas of the past and whatever we are having , we see more than 30% are there only for the sake of "tradition" and in 10 years from now, we will be throwing 10% of this also to dustbins.

Um...no offence JG, but surely u aren't suggesting tat we shed all of our respective traditions and other cultural aspects, deeming them all as unwanted? :D
Bcos, quite on the contrary, u still chose to go a traditional arranged marriage (obv. the girl of ur parents' selection & from ur community?), when it wudn't hav been impossible to 'accidentally' meet an arbitrary girl on ur own, get to know her & finally settle for a love marriage..... :wink:
So this idea of arranged marriage for eg. obv. doesn't appear to u as trash to be thrown into the dustbin rite? :D


We may reclaim 5% of the things that are useful in those 10 years.

Hmm....u'll forgive me but I'm rather skeptical abt tat happening....wud the present & future gen. (of 10 yrs from now) think the same as u do here in this regard? :?


However that does not mean that our undated past in which our ancestors lived gloriously is the best model of living.

JG, b4 I comment further, I might clarify sumthing tat apparently explains the reason for our different inferences? From Cinefan's earlier statement to u, I'd say tat we all seem to hav our own selective perception of the past and thus present different viewpoints.....?
For eg. the 'past' tat u chose to compare the present India w/ was like thousands of years ago, during the times of Kings/kingdoms and most likely the Vedic age (if I'm not wrong?)....and looking back from ur viewpoint, I might agree w/ ur sentiments abt India being far better off today than it was as a cluster of conflicting kingdoms back then.....
Anyways, coming to me, when I think/talk of the 'past', I normally go down to a more recent past, ie. say 30-40 yrs ago when my parents were roughly of my age group.....or even more recent like the '80s, during my childhood days....and compare the then society & the then values (rather than those of 1000 yrs ago) w/ tat of today/my gen.
And from wat I heard from my parents abt their time, I can't help agreeing w/ Cinefan tat altho we undoubtedly hav better technology, improving medical facilities (except maybe in Govt. hospitals!), better food production etc.....but the outlook of the society in general, not to mention the political leadership is certainly changing for the worse, slowly but steadily, whether we all believe it or not!
OK as an eg., quoting Cinefan's point, say a couple of 1000(?) yrs ago it was possible for a married woman to hav affairs & still be accepted by her husband/society.....but sumwhere down the line, their successive gens. came up w/ a 'new' set of norms/morals tat condemned such adultrous acts and so this wud've been one mistake of our earliest(?) ancestors tat their future gens. (inc. our g'parents/parents) learnt not to commit and thus over the ages, followed wat was believed to be a morally correct path......introducing 'pati-vrata', considering other women as ur mothers/sisters, women not to be touched by ne man other than their husbands etc....in the same society....
But then again in the same society today, I daresay we find history repeating itself? with an astounding increase in illicit promiscuity such as pre-marital relations, incests, group sex and even wife-swapping......No, these havn't become acceptable by our general society so far, but I'm sure u agree they r nevertheless considered an ignorable, 'common' matter today as opposed to wat wud've been the attitude of the society towards these say 30-40 years ago..... :)
Thus comparing today's society w/ tat of my parents' time in this one instance atleast, i feel tat Cinefan had a valid point in saying tat far from learning from the -ve points of our ancient ancestors and avoiding them, we r committing far more mistakes of the worst kind! This shud not be the case if we r becoming a better society, shud it?


If what you say about classification of people based on work is so true, then our ancestors are really crooked. I am a brahmin myself and I am ashamed of the "glorious past" . Simply because we might have put men on moon in our past, but we oppressed millions of people because of their race, colour, caste etc.,

There hav been various misinterpretations reg. caste origins.....they were originally a mere division of labour based upon individual skills....for eg. if u had knowledge in a subject and were good at teaching or liked to conduct prayers, u cud go for tat job & were called a brahmin.....if u were good at fighting or administration, u were a Kshatriya, if good at Business a Vysya & those who were skilled only in build and physical labour were 'Sudras' and it was even worse in Egypt/Rome where, as u said, such ppl. wud've been kept as slaves!
Its only when one/more of the 'High' castes gained arrogance/superiority over the 'low' ones prob. bcos of their nature of work and the wealth/benefit tat they all got from their jobs (esp. in case of the Kshatriyas and Vysyas who earned the most) tat they wud've began to think less of the 'lower' classes(which even Brahmins, in a way, were considered as) as fellow humans and rigidised casteism.....


However the evils of the "glorious past" aren't driven out completely and are lurching around in the corner waiting for an opportunity. My fear is that we may provide just that in a platter in trying to decry the "pseudo - secularists" like our honble, Union HRD minister.

Personally, I might add tat apart from these 'past' evils, sum 'present' evils r also materialising in our society and seeking equal oppurtunities w/ time, which I equally fear we may provide? Well tats my personal thot......