"Nayakan" among "Time" mag's 100 best

[arun]

Nice to see "Nayakan" featuring among the world's 100 best movies selected by "Time" magazine.

See the complete list here:
http://www.time.com/time/2005/100movies/the_complete_list.html

Here is the writeup on "Nayakan":
http://www.time.com/time/2005/100movies/0,23220,nayakan,00.html

[irfansong]

Hi Guys,

Another feather on the cap of Tamil Music Industry.

http://www.time.com/time/2005/100movies/0,23220,soundtracks,00.html

[Thiru]

Its being discussed here as well...
http://forumhub.mayyam.com/hub/viewtopic.php?p=128013

[app_engine]

http://www.rediff.com/movies/2005/jun/29list.htm

Lists 10 fav films of Sujatha...that has nAyagan, ofcourse and also two more with IR's music : mudhal mariyAdhai & muLLum malarum.

It's not fair though, that he hasn't mentioned about IR's music anywhere, while he sings praises for L S who did MD for some Hindi film...

[S.Balaji]

Seeing the topic head... i could recollect one song...

Eriyilay elandha maram... thaganchee vecha maram.......... It was a movie for which Sujatha wrote the story.....

Pratap and Sumalatha...

It was a different song those days........

[crvenky]

Balaji,

The movie name is Karayellam Shenbagapoo.

[S.Balaji]

Balaji,

The movie name is Karayellam Shenbagapoo.

Yes yes... Thank you very much for the info..

[Scale]

Its being discussed here as well...
http://forumhub.mayyam.com/hub/viewtopic.php?p=128013

Thiru Sir! Acknowledging this thread & its still active :roll: :notworthy:

What does this title "Nayagan in top 100 Times Movies list" has got in IR Threads? Isnt it irrelevant?

[mr_karthik]

Nayagan pathi konjam pesuvoma?.

Hindi nallA PesanumnA, Hindi books padipthai vida, hindi class attend pannuvadhai vida, romba easyAna method, just stay in Mumbai for 6 months, you can speak fluent Hindi. AnAl, Velu Naicker 5 vayasilirundhu Bombayil irupArAm. AnAl Hindi theriyathaam. Translator vachu pesuvArAm. Nalla kathaiyA irukkE..!!

Sait veettil poyi avar veettu kattil, Beruo, telephone, chandliers ellAm pOttu udaichathum, sait policeku pogAmal, documentsai kizhithu pOttu viduvArAm. Nalla kadhaiyaa irukkE..!!

Harbouril avvalavu kedupidiyaaga irukkumbOthu, Reddy, Koli, ivangalE kondu vara mudiyAtha sarakkai, Velu Naicker pOyi romba easyA (kuyili danceai parthukondE) kondu vandhu viduvArAm. Nalla kadhaiyA irukkE..!!

[app_engine]

"AnAl Hindi theriyathaam. Translator vachu pesuvArAm"

-I don't think the film claims anywhere that he CAN'T, though he does not...adhu VaradharAja mudhaliAr style'Akkooda irukkalAm. (`Look, your lang is so cheap I won't even utter, my adiyAL will only speak with you in that tongue' may be the arrogant attitude of the don, according to the film maker)

"sait policeku pogAmal"

-Since most of them do a lot of illegal transactions anyways, (including forging even the `muthiraiththAL'), it is not surprising that a lot of things are settled out of the legal system. In a country like ours where the law-enforcing machinery is so weak and often not trusted upon, this is not surprising.

"Harbouril avvalavu kedupidiyaaga irukkumbOthu"

-Take into consideration the tech. limitations the authorities had at the time of smuggling. In fact, even today, criminals often outsmart the authorities despite the technical gadgets they get from time to time...stupid, ineffective officers is a reality of many of our forces:-(

[rajasaranam]

mr_karthik,

Though genuine doubts. I know its true that Tamilians settled in mumbai in the slum areas in the 60's till early 90's were able to live a life without even knowing hindi. Rising of 'Varadha' as Bhai made this feat possible. their settlement was separated from mainstream mumbai till his death and till when the localites tookover the underworld. We can see that even today the dons are called 'Anna' [Watch Company] because of heavy tamil dominance in the underworld before 90's after which Shivasena and local gangsters started a war against the settled tamils and took over.
Your other doubts are cleared by app_engine.
The movie was a master piece from MR and he had done proper groundwork studying the mumbai underworld and portraying it as true as history was.

[MADDY]

rightly said RS aiyya,i think u know a lot abt Mumbai......most of tamilians live in a slum called "Dharavi - largest slum in Asia" and trust me if u stay in dharavi there is no need for one to speak in hindi or marathi to survive........dharavi is a self sufficient slum with all products available and no need to go to mumbai town side for anything......u'll feel like walking in streets of saidapet when u r in dharavi with shops being painted with rajni,kamal,ajith's portraits....

abt seth going to police, in mumbai dons r more powerful than police.....esp after marine drive rape case, even normal ppl. have started beating police nowadays.......

nayakan is my all time fav movie along with Titanic and swades.....kamal was outstanding in the movie with IR scoring the most memorable "thalattu" song - thenpandi seemayile....nayakan is truly a mesmerising movie watching experience......

[alias]

Yes Maddy, I would love that song that if God had given a good voice, One song which I would love to sing was "Thenpandi Semayile" for Nayagan again :-)

[kalnayak]

Ada Ithe Paarunga, Maddy & alias praise IR.

Intha statementkku avanga enna reply pannuvaangannu ellorukkum theriyum. Ennoda 1st statement shows just my wondering. Idhai Crocodile Tear nu solla mudiyathu. Vera ennannu sollalaam? Takkunu thona maatenguthu!!!

[MADDY]

:lol: :lol: :lol:

i know it is very hard for u to believe,kalnayak....but ARR fans never stop shy of appreciating gud music........remember we were all IR fans b4 ARR came into the scene....

[Scale]

:lol: :lol: :lol:

i know it is very hard for u to believe,kalnayak....but ARR fans never stop shy of appreciating gud music........remember we were all IR fans b4 ARR came into the scene....

LIKE ..... US-KATRINA, MUMBAI CYCLONE (ITS NOT A DISASTER INSTEAD A MUSICAL REVOLUTION.
A DESTRUCTION/ANHILATION/ERADICATION CAUSED IN YOUNG/IGNORANT MINDS)...

[Scale]

Yes Maddy, I would love that song that if God had given a good voice, One song which I would love to sing was "Thenpandi Semayile" for Nayagan again :-)

Alias! Why should anyone posess good voice to sing. "Thenpandi cheemayile" was sung by IR & KH (God's gift is their hardworking ability and their sincerity towards their profession). Their voice were not as sweet as SPB or KJY. Its only their soul & passion made that song so beautiful and evergreen.

A classic example is ARR on his vocals too (VM title song & Only U) .... even NFAK,Kavitha Krishnamurthy.

[nilavupriyan]

Nayagan pathi konjam pesuvoma?.

Hindi nallA PesanumnA, Hindi books padipthai vida, hindi class attend pannuvadhai vida, romba easyAna method, just stay in Mumbai for 6 months, you can speak fluent Hindi. AnAl, Velu Naicker 5 vayasilirundhu Bombayil irupArAm. AnAl Hindi theriyathaam. Translator vachu pesuvArAm. Nalla kathaiyA irukkE..!!

Sait veettil poyi avar veettu kattil, Beruo, telephone, chandliers ellAm pOttu udaichathum, sait policeku pogAmal, documentsai kizhithu pOttu viduvArAm. Nalla kadhaiyaa irukkE..!!

Harbouril avvalavu kedupidiyaaga irukkumbOthu, Reddy, Koli, ivangalE kondu vara mudiyAtha sarakkai, Velu Naicker pOyi romba easyA (kuyili danceai parthukondE) kondu vandhu viduvArAm. Nalla kadhaiyA irukkE..!!

karthik......,ur doubts are genuine....I shall answer it.

they had sent a group of members from our college to collect details about the "rain water harvesting"...im a member of that group.we went to a marvadi street...u believe or dont believe...they dont know tamil...and they can only understand a bit of english...then we made a guy who know a bit of hindi to collect details......

u doubt about harbour kadathal thing.....,in that film they have beautifully explained how nayakar makes it possible by using the rubber tube and salt....dint u watch.....

u cant deny these are impossible things....becoz these are done in real life by varadha raja mudhaliyar...

[saradhaa_sn]

Mr. Nilavu, brilliant explanations, but is not satisfactory. What are all the doubts created by Mr. Karthik, are reasonable.

I also seen several Marwaris in sowcarpet in chennai, they will talk tamil, which we can understand. They may not know 'ilakana tamil', to give explanation to thirukural, but know to speak like "neenga munnaadi poraan, naan pinnaadi varudhu". The great Dhadha V.Naicker (who is living in Bombay from his 7th age) does not know hindi, but Vijayan, Delhi Ganesh etc will speak hindi.

About tube & salt matter: They are using tube and salt only when they are bringing the smuggled goods from ship. But do you know how they discharge them from ship?. The ship crew tie the boxes in a rope and naicker and janagraj just take them by a hooked stick. What about 'Harbour kedupidi', as mentioned before?. These thing Reddy cant do it?, infact he is called as harbour king.

Reddy give information to customs about naicker's smuggling matter, they also come and see Velu Naicker's boat is coming from port (so the information is correct), but they did not suspect why some unnecessary ropes hanging inside the sea water.

We cant expect more logic from these kind of movies, if Nayagan is graded as a good movie. But Naayaganai poruthavarai ulagaththil illaatha adhisaya padamaaga pesa paduvathaal, idhu pondra minor pointsai karthik sutti kaattuvathil thavaru illai.

Just showing the scnese in dimlight will not bring the night effect. In this matter, Kamal Haasan looks better director than Mani Rathnam. He picturised fentastic night effect in 'unnai vida' song in Virumaandi.

[mr_karthik]

Thanks a lot Ms. Saradhaa_sn.

HyA, enaku oru support kidaichAchu.
romba nandRi......................

[nilavupriyan]

Mr. Nilavu, brilliant explanations, but is not satisfactory. What are all the doubts created by Mr. Karthik, are reasonable.

I also seen several Marwaris in sowcarpet in chennai, they will talk tamil, which we can understand. They may not know 'ilakana tamil', to give explanation to thirukural, but know to speak like "neenga munnaadi poraan, naan pinnaadi varudhu". The great Dhadha V.Naicker (who is living in Bombay from his 7th age) does not know hindi, but Vijayan, Delhi Ganesh etc will speak hindi.

About tube & salt matter: They are using tube and salt only when they are bringing the smuggled goods from ship. But do you know how they discharge them from ship?. The ship crew tie the boxes in a rope and naicker and janagraj just take them by a hooked stick. What about 'Harbour kedupidi', as mentioned before?. These thing Reddy cant do it?, infact he is called as harbour king.

Reddy give information to customs about naicker's smuggling matter, they also come and see Velu Naicker's boat is coming from port (so the information is correct), but they did not suspect why some unnecessary ropes hanging inside the sea water.

We cant expect more logic from these kind of movies, if Nayagan is graded as a good movie. But Naayaganai poruthavarai ulagaththil illaatha adhisaya padamaaga pesa paduvathaal, idhu pondra minor pointsai karthik sutti kaattuvathil thavaru illai.

Just showing the scnese in dimlight will not bring the night effect. In this matter, Kamal Haasan looks better director than Mani Rathnam. He picturised fentastic night effect in 'unnai vida' song in Virumaandi.

i shall again explain

1)first one regarding language......i have already told him that i have gone through some maarvadis who dont know tamil....its ok.
why dont u look in different manner.the people watching the movie are tamilians.....if velu nayakar is talking to all of them in hindi,noone can understand.so..,to make the people understand maniratnam could have undergone this technique.You know what happened in "hey raam".many cant understand the film.

think that velunayakar know hindi.then he would have takled with everyone in mumbai in hindi.can we understand?

2)the harbour thing...saradhaa are u aware of the length of bombay sea-shore?its so lengthy....u cant place the policeman covering its ful length.velu nayakar could have gone to any end of shore and disposed the goods....

is that convincing

[Sanjeevi]

nilavu naanum :D



Hindi nallA PesanumnA, Hindi books padipthai vida, hindi class attend pannuvadhai vida, romba easyAna method, just stay in Mumbai for 6 months, you can speak fluent Hindi. AnAl, Velu Naicker 5 vayasilirundhu Bombayil irupArAm. AnAl Hindi theriyathaam. Translator vachu pesuvArAm. Nalla kathaiyA irukkE..!!


I am the example. I lived in New Delhi for 8 months. But I couldn't speak in Hindi or understand clearly. if all circumference of Kamal was Tamilians, Kamal couldn't undertand



Sait veettil poyi avar veettu kattil, Beruo, telephone, chandliers ellAm pOttu udaichathum, sait policeku pogAmal, documentsai kizhithu pOttu viduvArAm. Nalla kadhaiyaa irukkE..!!


A car was running and after some time it was stopped automatically. The driver told, "petrol tank has been empty".

Only this type scenes will be picturized, if you want tight logical. If 5% chance will be in real, enjoy with the film scenes (only if picturised superbly like nayagan scenes).



Harbouril avvalavu kedupidiyaaga irukkumbOthu, Reddy, Koli, ivangalE kondu vara mudiyAtha sarakkai, Velu Naicker pOyi romba easyA (kuyili danceai parthukondE) kondu vandhu viduvArAm. Nalla kadhaiyA irukkE..!!

enough told by nilavu

[Cacaphonix]

the harbour thing...saradhaa are u aware of the length of bombay sea-shore?its so lengthy....u cant place the policeman covering its ful length.velu nayakar could have gone to any end of shore and disposed the goods....

En adhE bombay shore length reddy-kku kidayaadhaa?

But one thing, these scenes can be considered as some form of representation of the actual events that took place during varadharajar times in bombay. Yes these representations have flaws. But we can enjoy this as a good movie.

However, considering a tinkered-copy of Godfather as all time great thamizh movie is highly questionable.

[nilavupriyan]

the harbour thing...saradhaa are u aware of the length of bombay sea-shore?its so lengthy....u cant place the policeman covering its ful length.velu nayakar could have gone to any end of shore and disposed the goods....

En adhE bombay shore length reddy-kku kidayaadhaa?

But one thing, these scenes can be considered as some form of representation of the actual events that took place during varadharajar times in bombay. Yes these representations have flaws. But we can enjoy this as a good movie.

However, considering a tinkered-copy of Godfather as all time great thamizh movie is highly questionable.

do u know that the great "pather pathanchali"..,of sathya jit ray itself is an inspiration....?

but we have to accept that there are lots of better movies ithan nayagan in tamil which kamal himself had givennn

the greatness of nayagan...,lies in the excellence of ilayaraja,p.c.sriram and kamal haasan....and the film making of mani ratnam(certain scenes are made similar to god father)

it can be considered as the best inspiration on godfather done by many all over the world

[saradhaa_sn]

I highly appreciate all your efforts to justify the mistakes of Manirathnam in 'Naayagan', which were pointed out by mr_karthik.

If Manirathnam see this thread, definitely he will be happy to see that, he is having more advocates here. :lol: :lol:

[nilavupriyan]

I highly appreciate all your efforts to justify the mistakes of Manirathnam in 'Naayagan', which were pointed out by mr_karthik.

If Manirathnam see this thread, definitely he will be happy to see that, he is having more advocates here. :lol: :lol:

im extremely happy that u dont have any points to refuse the points given by me in support of nayagan... :lol: :lol:

[njv]

it can be considered as the best inspiration on godfather done by many all over the world
Watch Sarkar. Big -ve point for Sarkar is the BGM. If IR did the BGM, Sarkar would have beaten even GF.

[Cacaphonix]

well my point is also the same. it is a very good movie but not an all-time great.


it can be considered as the best inspiration on godfather done by many all over the world

nope. It is more close to copy than a good inspiration. Thevar Magan is what should be considered as the best inspiration (at least in indian arena) of God father.

[nilavupriyan]

well my point is also the same. it is a very good movie but not an all-time great.


it can be considered as the best inspiration on godfather done by many all over the world

nope. It is more close to copy than a good inspiration. Thevar Magan is what should be considered as the best inspiration (at least in indian arena) of God father.

yeah...,i forgot devar magan......with shivaji,kamal,ir,pc sriram and barathan...great movie....it looked a bit original than nayagan.

actually devar magan has the exact storyline of gf1....but nayagan is a combination of gf1 and gf2.

[saradhaa_sn]

well my point is also the same. it is a very good movie but not an all-time great.


it can be considered as the best inspiration on godfather done by many all over the world

nope. It is more close to copy than a good inspiration. Thevar Magan is what should be considered as the best inspiration (at least in indian arena) of God father.

yeah...,i forgot devar magan......with shivaji,kamal,ir,pc sriram and barathan...great movie....it looked a bit original than nayagan.

actually devar magan has the exact storyline of gf1....but nayagan is a combination of gf1 and gf2.

So, as per YOUR statements, both Nayagan and Devar Magan are copied ones, gently telling, 'inspiration'. (same like 'lamjam' illai 'anbalippu')

[Sanjeevi]

Feel the difference between copy and inspiration (same like true gift and pudunkal lanjam)

Are you walking with hands, if many persons walked with their legs before your birth? :lol:

[Shankar]

saradha,
DM is the best case for an inspiration. What similarity did you find in DM and GF, except that both were about sons who don't fully accept their father's ways, who want to lead a different life, but reluctantly take up their family business to sustain their honour, when its thrust upon them. If this were copy, then all tamil movies are copied !!

[nilavupriyan]

well my point is also the same. it is a very good movie but not an all-time great.


it can be considered as the best inspiration on godfather done by many all over the world

nope. It is more close to copy than a good inspiration. Thevar Magan is what should be considered as the best inspiration (at least in indian arena) of God father.

yeah...,i forgot devar magan......with shivaji,kamal,ir,pc sriram and barathan...great movie....it looked a bit original than nayagan.

actually devar magan has the exact storyline of gf1....but nayagan is a combination of gf1 and gf2.

So, as per YOUR statements, both Nayagan and Devar Magan are copied ones, gently telling, 'inspiration'. (same like 'lamjam' illai 'anbalippu')

if u say "pather pathanjali" of sathya jit ray(considered to be his best) which is inspired from a foriegn drama as a copy.,im happy to accept that dm and nayagan are copies...

first of all do u know godfather itself is not original..,its based on the godfather novel.so will u say its also a copy.. :lol:

[rajdes]

Sarada_sn,
Sridhar is the best director ever
Cut Paste
Sridhar is the best director ever
Sridhar is the best director ever
Cut Paste
Sridhar is the best director ever
Cut Paste
Sridhar is the best director ever
Cut Paste
Sridhar is the best director ever
Cut Paste
Sridhar is the best director ever
Cut Paste
Sridhar is the best director ever
Cut Paste

...innum evvalavu imposition sollunga? Ezhudharom.
(replace sridhar by whoever is your favourite . ore oru search and replace operation dhaan)
Manirathnam paavam - oru padam nalu peru sollara maadhiri eduthuttar. Mannichu vuttudunga. Idhanal avar sridhar-ai vuda periya director aagida maattar. Happy-aa?
(I am basing this post based on various posts of yours - especially caustic against Manirathnam. I am not even a MR fan. But you are just venting tour stomach-soda by repeatedly claiming that he is just a iruttu director)

[saradhaa_sn]

saradha,
DM is the best case for an inspiration. What similarity did you find in DM and GF, except that both were about sons who don't fully accept their father's ways, who want to lead a different life, but reluctantly take up their family business to sustain their honour, when its thrust upon them. If this were copy, then all tamil movies are copied !!

Mr. Shankar,
I never compared "Devar Magan" and "God father" in any of my statements. They were compared by Nilavupriyan and some others.

Thaswhy I started with the line:
'As per ""YOUR"" statement".

I am surprise, why you people are not able to digest criticisms against your favourite Directors or MDs..????.

[rajdes]

"So, as per YOUR statements, both Nayagan and Devar Magan are copied ones, gently telling, 'inspiration'. (same like 'lamjam' illai 'anbalippu')"
saradhaa_sn,
So lets get one thing clear - can we take it that you dont believe that DM or Nayagan wasnt a copy and you are just interpreting Nilavu priyan for us? If so, thanks. i couldnt make head or tail out of NP's post until you reiterated.

[saradhaa_sn]

Dear Mr. Rajdes

I am not the advocate for Sreedhar or Balachander or any others. Sreedhar also done somany mistakes in his movies which were already pointed out by ME in my earlier postings.

What I want to tell is,
If 'Nayagan' is stamped as a good movie, or better movie or best movie like that, we can accept it.

But, idhuvarai yaarum edukkaadha padam, appadipatta padam, ippadipatta padam.... endru elloraalum oru padam kondaadapattaal adhu ELLAA KURAIGALUKKUM APPAARPATTA PADAMAAGA IRUKKA VENDUM.

But Mr.Karthik romba easyaaga adhilulla kuraigalai chutti kaatti vittaar. Adhuthaan unga ellorudaiya kobathukkum kaaranam.

'Nayagan' pathi ivvalavu pesureengale, adhey MR padam 'Iruvar' pathi yen onnume vaai thirappathillai?. 'Nayaganai' vida enna vidhathil adhu kuraundhu vittathu...???.

[rajdes]

Saradha_sn,
thats fine.If youa re not advocating anyone else, I take my statements back. But you DO seem to have something against MR specifically and there seems to be some kind of trigger mechanism - whenever MR is praised or over-praised, there is almost an elegy from you lamenting some thing or the other. Which is uncalled for. This is usually stuff that comes from fan camps. Sorry if I overreacted.

I am not a fan of MR. I dont think Nayagan is the greatest tamil movie ever. I wouldnt rank it in my top 10.But Karthik's flaws were churlish,to say the least. The way you jumped the bandwagon suggested to me that you wanted to just pull down MR for whatever reason.

Firstly, I know people who have been in Delhi for 10 years and still dont speak Hindi. THese are people who dont need to interact with too many Hindi people and stay at home. Mr Velu might have simply been a person who didnt need to regularly talk to Hindi people. FYI, I have been in AP for years and CAN speak telugu fluently yet have a mental block speaking in telugu to anyone. I just dont use it. The fact that nobody knows that I know the language has worked to my advantage often :-)
Maybe only a few people will be like this but you cant say EVERYONE who stays in Rome for n years will speak Roman :-)

Rest of the flaws were also like "edho fault kandu pidikkanumne"
TO use your logic in reverse, Nayagan may not be the greatest movie ver made but it is not as stupid as Karthik or you are trying to make it out to be :-)

[S.Balaji]

Hello Saradhajiii,

Welcome back..How are you. I have sent a PM to you. Pl reply back

Anbudan

S.Balaji

[Shankar]

>>>>>>>>
I am surprise, why you people are not able to digest criticisms against your favourite Directors or MDs..????
<<<<<<<<

Who said i am an MR fan ? Maniratnam became a spentforce right after thiruda-thiruda. Like raj said, one of the few good movies made by him is nayagan, and this karthik's "idhu nalla kadhayA irukkE" stmts were childish !! Since you were backing him bigtime, I had posted my reply.

[S.Balaji]

>>>>>>>>
I am surprise, why you people are not able to digest criticisms against your favourite Directors or MDs..????
<<<<<<<<

Who said i am an MR fan ? Maniratnam became a spentforce right after thiruda-thiruda. Like raj said, one of the few good movies made by him is nayagan, and this karthik's "idhu nalla kadhayA irukkE" stmts were childish !! Since you were backing him bigtime, I had posted my reply.

Shankar,

Alai paayudhey was a nice movie... Even Mumbai was a good one... I think both were made after Thiruda Thiruda only...
MR picks a subject to his liking and builds it into a movie....
He takes time to make a movie.
Doesnt mean that he is a spent force....
He still has the stuff to do good movies....

Somehow I feel MR's best movie probably could be Mouna ragam.... and not Nayagan... because Nayagan had lot of melodrama and very cinematic.....
Moungaragam had an element of human behavioural science...
The way Revatha undergoes change in her attitude towards Mohan and the gradual developments which bonds them ... were all nice ones.....Nayagan was more of a Kamal movie....

[MrJudge]

Somehow I feel MR's best movie probably could be Mouna ragam....

Dear Balaji,

I guess you have not watched Nenjaththai killathe by the great Mahendran. There are so many similarities between NK and Mouna Ragam. Mouna Ragam is nothing but a mixer of NK and his own Anu Pallavi (kannada movie)

[saradhaa_sn]

Feel the difference between copy and inspiration (same like true gift and pudunkal lanjam)
Are you walking with hands, if many persons walked with their legs before your birth? :lol:

Yetho buththisaali thanaamaa ennavo solla vareengannu theriyuthu. Aanaa onnum puriyalai.

[S.Balaji]

Somehow I feel MR's best movie probably could be Mouna ragam....

Dear Balaji,

I guess you have not watched Nenjaththai killathe by the great Mahendran. There are so many similarities between NK and Mouna Ragam. Mouna Ragam is nothing but a mixer of NK and his own Anu Pallavi (kannada movie)

Yes yes , I am quite aware of Nenjathai Killadhey... Infact I have already mentioned about this in another thread earlier.....
Mounaragam is a fine tuned version of Nenjathai killadhey only....
My point in this thread is that I feel Mouna ragam is probably the best movie of MR and not Nayagan....( leave alone whether it is a remake or from Anu Pallavi )

[saradhaa_sn]

Pochuda...

Appadeennaa, "Mouna Raagam" kooda innoru padaththin inspiration thaanaa..??. (copynnu sonnaa adikka varuvaanga).

Ippathaan onnonnaa veliyila varuthu.

[MADDY]

i dunno y MR is being bashed here????maybe bcos of his proximity to ARR or maybe bcos of his inclination towards western ideas or maybe bcos ppl. cannot digest the fact that he is a better director than sridhar and balachander.......

see, guys u wont enjoy MR's movie bcos u guys grew watching sridhar/KB movies......i simply hate Aboorva ragam,avalukku endra oru manam(sridhar)......i even hate nenjil oru aalayam cos there was no reason to kill the poor kalyan kumar character........i think we shuld be proud that a Tamil movie has entered the times list instead of a sholay/DDLJ/Lagaan............MR is the person who showed to whole india that Tamil industry has the best technicians.....so thank him for that ,stop bashing him.....

[S.Balaji]

Pochuda...

Appadeennaa, "Mouna Raagam" kooda innoru padaththin inspiration thaanaa..??. (copynnu sonnaa adikka varuvaanga).

Ippathaan onnonnaa veliyila varuthu.

Saradhajiiii,

Inspiration dhaaan !! Adhil endha sandhegamum illai !!

But dont you feel that Mouna ragam was better presented...

[Shankar]

>>>>>
But dont you feel that Mouna ragam was better presented...
<<<<<

NO WAY !!!! Nenjathai killAdhEy was more realistic !

The flow was much better in nenjathai kiLLAdhE, and the characters looked real (you feel like slapping the actress playing sarat's wife in many a scenes, and when sarat really does it, you feel relieved !! and pratap beautifully portrays the husband - mike too did a good job, I agree...and then there was sarat babu...what a performance from him !)

As Judge said, its a mixture of mounaragam (mike + revathy scenes), and pallavi anu pallavi (karthik scenes).

I personally didn't like alaipAyudhE (average) & bombay (sucked big time!!)

[Shankar]

>>>>>>
Yetho buththisaali thanaamaa ennavo solla vareengannu theriyuthu. Aanaa onnum puriyalai.
<<<<<<<<

at 10:56 AM

>>>>>>>
Appadeennaa, "Mouna Raagam" kooda innoru padaththin inspiration thaanaa..??
<<<<<<<<

at 14:08 PM...

Yes...you are getting there slowly :-)

[Shankar]

>>>>>
i dunno y MR is being bashed here????maybe bcos of his proximity to ARR
<<<<<

Maddy, You don't have a case here..saradhaa_sn bashes Raja as much as she does MR :lol:

>>>>>>>
guys u wont enjoy MR's movie bcos u guys grew watching sridhar/KB movies
<<<<<<<
I agree with you on this.

But all said, I can show many tamil movies which were better than nayagan.

[S.Balaji]

Shankar,

I think the transformation process which was shown on Revathy was better than what was shown on Suhasini..
Mahendran through Mohan ( will pretend that he is happy with his wife and all ) will try to convince Suhasini which I feel that there was not enough punch... to convince Suhasini to orient towards Pratap... and also showing the death of that Kichaaa ... and a philosophical touch....
While Revathy ... step by step .... through small small incidents.... MR will show with conviction....

This is my humble opinion.... Pl comment on this....

[S.Balaji]

[tscii:f512c24681]
Coming back to Mouna ragam and Nenjathai killadhey, MR showed the positive side of Mike Mohan which Revathy got convinced and got reconciled with him….
While Suhasini was never shown as getting convinced on the plusses of Pratap while she was shown as irritated towards Mohan on various fronts and got inclinded towards Pratap…

I feel MR handled the issue well in this movie…

Again, I am not drawing parallels between two great directors….. Mahendran was a trend setter…. Great director…. Had given some wonderful movies…..

Definitely Nenjathai killadhey was a different movie altogether, those days....It ran for one year in Devi Kala I think...[/tscii:f512c24681]

[mr_karthik]

Well friends.

After I commented about Nayagan's minus points, It was discussed for several pages and brought many facts out.

Thanks Ms.Saradhaa_sn, you are fighting in single, facing the attacks from all directions, and made others (non-participaters) to think about the facts.

Mr. Maddy
You hate nenjil ore Alayam, Kalyanaparisu and all the movies of Sreedhar and balachander. Who cares about it?. None of us is the producer or director for that films. But when nobody talking about Sridhar or Balachander here, what is the necessity to draw them to this thread?..

But your statement clearly show, you are supporting MR not for his talent, only for he is using ARR in his movies.

[S.Balaji]

[tscii:27c1d74a4c]
Well friends.

After I commented about Nayagan's minus points, It was discussed for several pages and brought many facts out.

Thanks Ms.Saradhaa_sn, you are fighting in single, facing the attacks from all directions, and made others (non-participaters) to think about the facts.

Mr. Maddy
You hate nenjil ore Alayam, Kalyanaparisu and all the movies of Sreedhar and balachander. Who cares about it?. None of us is the producer or director for that films. But when nobody talking about Sridhar or Balachander here, what is the necessity to draw them to this thread?..

But your statement clearly show, you are supporting MR not for his talent, only for he is using ARR in his movies.

Dear Karthik,

In a Discussion Forum, drawing comparisons is inevitable…. It will come spontaneously and will develop into an argument and debate… such things are unavoidable… However, it should not get too personal…..
There was a thread for BR vs KB where constructive arguments were exchanged…some nice social topics were also discussed and debated.... Pl go through that... you will enjoy reading...



[/tscii:27c1d74a4c]

[Shankar]

Balaji,
I agree with your analysis, but i sense there's a slight difference in the characters of Revathy and Suhasini, which probably resulted in different treatment from the dirs.
Revathy, in that movie is a mature person...She knew what she wanted, and was forced to accept a guy bcos, her father had a stroke etc...So, the goal of the movie was - how does this girl drop her bias and accept the caring husband, starts living in the present rather than dwelling in her past.

OTOH, NK had suhasini as a teenager who's frivolous, carefree, and does whatever she likes (like mixing chilli powder in the bucket, which eventually leads to her fight with her SIL)...The goal here was - How does an teenager become a mature person, become responsible for her acts, and how she becomes a woman. Sarat, mohan and Pratap - all these characters take her thro' different stages.

So, IMO, there's some difference between those two characters.

[Shankar]

>>>>>
But your statement clearly show, you are supporting MR not for his talent, only for he is using ARR in his movies.
<<<<<

idhenna pramAdham....SJS is being called a great director/actor bcos he uses arr ;-)

[Shankar]

Balaji,
One single reason why I liked NK better is it was ORIGINAL ! Mouna Ragam wasn't :-)

[S.Balaji]

Balaji,
One single reason why I liked NK better is it was ORIGINAL ! Mouna Ragam wasn't :-)

There were lots of remakes and popular stories written in Magazines which were developed into films...and have come out well...

Coming back to those movies, I didnt find anything which Suhasini found better in Pratap compared to Mohan..... It was shown as the negatives of Mohan made her to inch towards Pratap

[MrJudge]

[tscii:c4d5573201]
Coming back to Mouna ragam and Nenjathai killadhey, MR showed the positive side of Mike Mohan which Revathy got convinced and got reconciled with him….
While Suhasini was never shown as getting convinced on the plusses of Pratap while she was shown as irritated towards Mohan on various fronts and got inclinded towards Pratap…

Karthik got killed even before the marriage happened. What if Karthink was alive, got separated and met Revathy again after her marriage. How will you convince Revathy to accept mohan now? Believe me, if Karthik was alive, however Mohan shows his positive sides, she will get irritated just like Suhasini. She has to understand the negatives of Karthik to leave him behind. That is what Mahendran did in NK.


:)

[/tscii:c4d5573201]

[Shankar]

Balaji,
>>>>>>>>
There were lots of remakes
<<<<<<<<

When you remake a movie, you are expected to do better...Even matching the original should be considered a failure (what's the contribution of the director if the remake doesn't even match the original ??)

I have seen only ONE remake which was better than the original.
Kurudhippunal - The production values were better, the editing was slick, and the BG score was much better than the original.

[Shankar]

I couldn't watch naseeruddin shah fighting...A great actor, but action scenes don't suit him.

[MADDY]

mr.karthik, i was a MR fan b4 ARR came into the scene and my fav combo was MR-IR......okkk i do see things with a ARR prospective but not to the extent that i call shankar/SJS a classy director like mahendran or something like that....

comparison betn NK and mouna ragam:

i'll never agree that mouna ragam is inspired from NK.....there's no need for a legend like MR to get inspired from a 4 film wonder like mahendran.....it is a harsh statement abt that genius,sorry, but i cant see any reason for MR lifting his story..... mouna ragam was a class apart explaining the philosophy " virumbi pona velagi pogum, velagi pona virumbi varum".....i think this point was never highlighted in NK......

[nilavupriyan]

Dear Mr. Rajdes

I am not the advocate for Sreedhar or Balachander or any others. Sreedhar also done somany mistakes in his movies which were already pointed out by ME in my earlier postings.

What I want to tell is,
If 'Nayagan' is stamped as a good movie, or better movie or best movie like that, we can accept it.

But, idhuvarai yaarum edukkaadha padam, appadipatta padam, ippadipatta padam.... endru elloraalum oru padam kondaadapattaal adhu ELLAA KURAIGALUKKUM APPAARPATTA PADAMAAGA IRUKKA VENDUM.

But Mr.Karthik romba easyaaga adhilulla kuraigalai chutti kaatti vittaar. Adhuthaan unga ellorudaiya kobathukkum kaaranam.

'Nayagan' pathi ivvalavu pesureengale, adhey MR padam 'Iruvar' pathi yen onnume vaai thirappathillai?. 'Nayaganai' vida enna vidhathil adhu kuraundhu vittathu...???.

saradha...u dont understand a point.....nayagan is considered to be a best film not becoz its a great movie than all others in respect of class....but it is as entertaining as a masala movie and nearly as perfect as a classic movie.........may be not a complete classic...

in all perspectives it sound good....acting,music,photography,etc...

i accept iruvar is better attempt than nayagan.but thats not entertaining as nayagan...nayagan is good in all aspects....

[MADDY]

Balaji,

I have seen only ONE remake which was better than the original.
Kurudhippunal - The production values were better, the editing was slick, and the BG score was much better than the original.

kamalhassan mudhugu sorinji vida ivalavu pera Tn la......andhu aal yenna pannalum correctaya??? kurudhi punal was no way near to droh-kaal......kamal and his artificial acting.......chaaa.....

mr.judge, my nanba, the point that u made that mahendran had a liablity in old-lover still alive is a gud point but MR too had the lady role non-interested in marriage and marries just to save her dad's life......so how to convince a lady who has married against her ideas...i'm shocked to see so much of MR-bashing, no wonder MR and ARR are frnds :lol: :lol:

[nilavupriyan]

Balaji,

I have seen only ONE remake which was better than the original.
Kurudhippunal - The production values were better, the editing was slick, and the BG score was much better than the original.

kamalhassan mudhugu sorinji vida ivalavu pera Tn la......andhu aal yenna pannalum correctaya??? kurudhi punal was no way near to droh-kaal......kamal and his artificial acting.......chaaa.....

mr.judge, my nanba, the point that u made that mahendran had a liablity in old-lover still alive is a gud point but MR too had the lady role non-interested in marriage and marries just to save her dad's life......so how to convince a lady who has married against her ideas...i'm shocked to see so much of MR-bashing, no wonder MR and ARR are frnds :lol: :lol:

why are u so disgusted???...,its his opinion...even the director of dhrokal have said kuridhipunal is better than the original..so it doesnt need certificates from u :lol:

[abbydoss1969]

Balaji,

I have seen only ONE remake which was better than the original.
Kurudhippunal - The production values were better, the editing was slick, and the BG score was much better than the original.

kamalhassan mudhugu sorinji vida ivalavu pera Tn la......andhu aal yenna pannalum correctaya??? kurudhi punal was no way near to droh-kaal......kamal and his artificial acting.......chaaa.....

mr.judge, my nanba, the point that u made that mahendran had a liablity in old-lover still alive is a gud point but MR too had the lady role non-interested in marriage and marries just to save her dad's life......so how to convince a lady who has married against her ideas...i'm shocked to see so much of MR-bashing, no wonder MR and ARR are frnds :lol: :lol:

why are u so disgusted???...,its his opinion...even the director of dhrokal have said kuridhipunal is better than the original..so it doesnt need certificates from u :lol:
No, I think Nihalini said, tamil version was commercially more successful.
It was done by diluting the original idea, by making Kamal's character more heroic,unlike the original where there were no heroes, I think the hero in Drohkal, becomes a traitor. :!:

[Sanjeevi]

kamalhassan mudhugu sorinji vida ivalavu pera Tn la......andhu aal yenna pannalum correctaya??? kurudhi punal was no way near to droh-kaal......kamal and his artificial acting.......chaaa.....

Nihalini mudhuga sorinji vidurathukae oru matti sorry MADDY irukumpothu, king of actors ie. kamalukku enna kuraichal. :lol:

[rajdes]

saaradha_sn:
sadly, you are degrading into fanatic-mentality>. Just bash someone based on your bias - depend on others' views for support for the view and rejoice when someone else states his negative opinion on your favourite punch-bag. I mean, you dont even know why you think Manirathnam is bad - it needs someone else to point out that , in his opinion - in HIS opinion, Mouna Raagam/Naayagan was a ..err.. copy for you to realise that your dislike for Mani, indeed , had basis.

Isn't it obvious to you that you are starting with the hypothesis "Mani is mediocre" and then looking for facts to corroborate that thesis?

If you say you cant understand this simple fact, well, good luck to you.
Well, if you still think everyone else is just defending MR because they are fans, God help you :-)

Coming to the original copy etc, I can't believe that someone would say "Mahendran is a 4-film wonder and Mani is all-time great". But everybody is entitled to an opinion so I guess I can let that pass.

My opinion is that Mouna Ragam, while well-crafted and one of the best from Mani, could not have been but inspired from NK. To any unbiased observer, everything down to the climax(replace Airport by Railway station) is obviously inspired. To deny that it was inspired, and equally, to insinuate that it was copied - both IMO are incorrect.

[rajdes]

Well, Kurudhi Punal , again. This re-opens a debate. Production values were better obviously. But I do feel that Kamal overshadowed the Arjun character. The whole point of DrohKaal was the real-life scenario that when subject to pressure, even the bravest succumb to the level of betraying one's best friend. This is a very real premise and you can see this happening at various levels all round you. Selfishness, Self-preservation is a natural instinct.
Drohkaal infact was titled DrohKaal - Times of Betrayal. Which summarises what the theme was all about and as far as justice to the subject goes
KP, initially named Drohi, which suggests to me that Kamal started off with an intention to retain the same screenplay (ie) Kamal character explicitly betraying Arjun character. Later, due to distributor pressure, name was changed - the rationale Kamal gave being that his fans were upset at insinuation that their hero is a drohi. (The telugu version retained the title Drohi - obviously, Kamal doesnt have the 'mass' kind of fans in Telugu - those guys go and watch Chiru and Balayya - misfortune of Tamil Films is that even a guy like Kamal has fans who want heroism from him.). Obviously, he must have backed out or forced to back out on the story line to change it such that Arjun betrays himself instead of Kamal betraying him. I feel that diluted the whole theme.

[rajdes]

Well, Kurudhi Punal , again. This re-opens a debate. Production values were better obviously. But I do feel that Kamal overshadowed the Arjun character. The whole point of DrohKaal was the real-life scenario that when subject to pressure, even the bravest succumb to the level of betraying one's best friend. This is a very real premise and you can see this happening at various levels all round you. Selfishness, Self-preservation is a natural instinct.
Drohkaal infact was titled DrohKaal - Times of Betrayal. Which summarises what the theme was all about and as far as justice to the subject goes
KP, initially named Drohi, which suggests to me that Kamal started off with an intention to retain the same screenplay (ie) Kamal character explicitly betraying Arjun character. Later, due to distributor pressure, name was changed - the rationale Kamal gave being that his fans were upset at insinuation that their hero is a drohi. (The telugu version retained the title Drohi - obviously, Kamal doesnt have the 'mass' kind of fans in Telugu - those guys go and watch Chiru and Balayya - misfortune of Tamil Films is that even a guy like Kamal has fans who want heroism from him.). Obviously, he must have backed out or forced to back out on the story line to change it such that Arjun betrays himself instead of Kamal betraying him. I feel that diluted the whole theme.

[rajdes]

Well, Kurudhi Punal , again. This re-opens a debate. Production values were better obviously. But I do feel that Kamal overshadowed the Arjun character. The whole point of DrohKaal was the real-life scenario that when subject to pressure, even the bravest succumb to the level of betraying one's best friend. This is a very real premise and you can see this happening at various levels all round you. Selfishness, Self-preservation is a natural instinct.
Drohkaal infact was titled DrohKaal - Times of Betrayal. Which summarises what the theme was all about and as far as justice to the subject goes
KP, initially named Drohi, which suggests to me that Kamal started off with an intention to retain the same screenplay (ie) Kamal character explicitly betraying Arjun character. Later, due to distributor pressure, name was changed - the rationale Kamal gave being that his fans were upset at insinuation that their hero is a drohi. (The telugu version retained the title Drohi - obviously, Kamal doesnt have the 'mass' kind of fans in Telugu - those guys go and watch Chiru and Balayya - misfortune of Tamil Films is that even a guy like Kamal has fans who want heroism from him.). Obviously, he must have backed out or forced to back out on the story line to change it such that Arjun betrays himself instead of Kamal betraying him. I feel that diluted the whole theme.

[rajdes]

Multiple posts - apologies. is there a way to delete the duplicate and triplicate?

[Scale]

Multiple posts - apologies. is there a way to delete the duplicate and triplicate?

Delete from backwards :). , if possible even others too..

Enough discussed abt KP in Tamil films (KH/Vs Rajini) & Indian films (KH Vs SRK) threads. I am asking the moderator again and again What "Nayakan in top 100 list of Times magazines" has got to do in IR's thread" ? Isnt there anything else to discuss about IR ?

Where is njv, RS or any HC IR fans?

Moderator pls move this thread to either current topics or tamil films.

[S.Balaji]

[tscii:33b5560b18]Rajdes,

I thought in Kurudhi punnal… Arjun did well compared to Kamal ( kamal always plays second fiddle sportingly ) and Nassar excelled above all…. Nassar was the best actor in that movie…..
[/tscii:33b5560b18]

[Shankar]

Balaji,

I have seen only ONE remake which was better than the original.
Kurudhippunal - The production values were better, the editing was slick, and the BG score was much better than the original.

kamalhassan mudhugu sorinji vida ivalavu pera Tn la......andhu aal yenna pannalum correctaya??? kurudhi punal was no way near to droh-kaal......kamal and his artificial acting.......chaaa.....

mr.judge, my nanba, the point that u made that mahendran had a liablity in old-lover still alive is a gud point but MR too had the lady role non-interested in marriage and marries just to save her dad's life......so how to convince a lady who has married against her ideas...i'm shocked to see so much of MR-bashing, no wonder MR and ARR are frnds :lol: :lol:

If someone can compare KAMAL with SRK (yikes!!!) and a bigger blasphemy - Mahendran with MR , there's nothing wrong in supporting Kamal...I am proud Kamal fan.

Maddy,
your calling Mahendran a 4 film wonder shows how superficial your knowledge of tamil films is.
Mahendran was the first guy to make movies a complete visual experience and that too in the period of people like K Shankar, KB, Sridhar who depended totally on their dialogues and never used the visual aspect of movies to its full potential....NEVER IN THIS LIFE CAN A PUCCA-COMMERCIAL-DIR-IN-THE-GARB-OF-CLASSIC-DIR MR produce a GEM like UthirippookkaL .

Mani has never given a movie which delves deep into the characters of its movie. Mouna Ragam was close to being one, but everyone knows where it was inspired from :-)

Have you watched pallavi anupallavi ? They say it is a better version of Mouna Ragam.

Ridley scott may give more hits than Kubrick...but Ridley scott can never become a kubrick !!!

[MrJudge]

your calling Mahendran a 4 film wonder shows how superficial your knowledge of tamil films is.
Mahendran was the first guy to make movies a complete visual experience and that too in the period of people like K Shankar, KB, Sridhar who depended totally on their dialogues and never used the visual aspect of movies to its full potential....NEVER IN THIS LIFE CAN A PUCCA-COMMERCIAL-DIR-IN-THE-GARB-OF-CLASSIC-DIR MR produce a GEM like UthirippookkaL .

Mani has never given a movie which delves deep into the characters of its movie. Mouna Ragam was close to being one, but everyone knows where it was inspired from :-)

Oh my god, exactly my thoughts too.

I don't think MADDY brought "Mahendgran 4-film wonder" term, it was rajdes. MADDY was the one claimed Mani invented soft spoken people in tamil films. I am sure he does not know more about tamil films.

Mani's packaging is neat but comes out with characters behaving so artificially. I think Balakumaran is the culprit who penned dialogues for Nayagan. From Nayagan onwards his dialogues are one or two words which are so irritating. I don't think MR can touch Mahendrean in bringing out the essence of characters in its natural flavour. Mahendran was a trendsetter to use best technical crew possible at that time as well (Ashok kumar, Balumahindra as cameramen, IR as md). Mani travels the same path and uses high class technicians but still lacking when considering the contents.

[Cinefan]

Shankar,
I have been reading all the posts over the past few days&my few cents(strictly my opinion&don't want to debate on this :D )-MR is a better director than Mahendran,Why?, becos' he's been far more consistent.Yes,MR till now has not made a 'Uthiripokkal'(absolutely mind blowing film)but his body of work is better when compared to Mahendran's.I will also accept that it's been a very loooooooooooong time since I saw Uthiri.....,NK,Johnny,Mullum Malarum but it's been the same time since I saw Mouna Ragam,Pallavi.....,etc.Mouna.....left an impression on my mind than NK.

Coming to Pallavi Anupallavi,it was MR's debut,I was 8 when I saw it in the now defunct 'Shanthi'theatre in Bangalore&it disturbed me a lot.

For those who don't know the storyline here it is:Anil Kapoor is going steady with a girl(I forgot the name of the actress).The girl's dad is OK with it&they are waiting to kind of settle down in life b4 getting married.Enter-Lakshmi,a woman estranged with her hubby(played by 'Julie'Vikram) with a cute boy.She becomes Anil neighbour(if I am not wrong)&he develops a bond with the kid&the mom.It's strictly platonic but slowly the buzz starts that Anil&Lakshmi have something happening between them.It creates friction between Anil&his GF but his attachement for the child is too strong.By this time he also develops a kind of protective feeling for Lakshmi.

Things come to a pass&a incident happens wherein in a fit of emotion Anil declares to the world that he will marry Lakshmi.This forces his GF to leave town with her dad.Anil fails to convince her that he did not mean what he said.He goes to lakshmi's place to find solace only to find her husband back.They are a happy family again.

The film ends with a shot of Anil sitting alone near a lake completely heartbroken&lonely.

Trivia:The film had camera work by Balu Mahendra.Mani took him on board because he did not know what it is to direct a film.

In an interview Balu mentioned that when Mani approached him,his first question was "With whom have you worked as an assistant?".Imagine his shock when Mani replied that he does not know anything about cinema but still wants to direct a film.The reason why he wants Balu to do the camera&help him out.

It was Mani's script which convinced BM to take up this project.

Suhasini(who was very well known in Kannada then)was the original choice for Lakshmi's role.She refused as Mani's credentials did not impress her.That she went on to become his wife is another story.

[Shankar]

Cinefan,
>>>>>>>>>>>
I will also accept that it's been a very loooooooooooong time since I saw Uthiri.....,NK,Johnny,Mullum Malarum but it's been the same time since I saw Mouna Ragam,Pallavi.....,etc.Mouna.....left an impression on my mind than NK.
<<<<<<<<<<<
Once you've posted your opinion, your disclaimers such as "i don't want any debate on this" etc would go for a toss :-)

anyway, I suggest you watch johnny again...I watched it when i was a kid and enjoyed the action scenes, the songs etc...But I saw the movie a month back, and i realized that there's more in it for grown-ups than for Kids...Mahendran had made such a sensitive movie with the right commercial mixture, that it caters all age groups. His strengths were the sensitive dialogues...The dialogues between Rajnikant and sridevi are so natural (pls listen to the dialogue when Rajnikant asks sridevi for a 1 rupee coin as a gift on his b'day), whereas MR's dialogues sound very cinematic, and his desperation to sound different from those 20-page-dialogue spewing movies is way too obvious ! (can you expect an inane scene like arvindswamy inflicting a cut in his arms, doing the same with manisha (in bombay) and claiming the blood looks the same :-)...Never have i seen such stupid scenes in a mahendran movie).

How about Mahendran Vs Mani thread in the tfilms section ? We can analyze all the movies by these 2.

[alwarpet_andavan]

Ridley scott may give more hits than Kubrick...but Ridley scott can never become a kubrick !!!
<Digression>
I'm a Kubrick fan too! If ever there was someone ahead of his time (avant-garde) its Kubrick.....
</Digression>
Sorry for the digression folks.......

[Cinefan]

Shankar,
To participate in a Mani Vs Mahendran thread,I have to revisit all the films of Mahendran.Right now I am too biased in favour of Mani.

'Bombay' sucked Big time,I completely agree.Def Mani's worst film ever,wonder why he made it in the first place :(

It's a blot on his resume.

This will be followed by 'Dil Se'-gr8 music,bad film-completely lacked soul.

Aytha Ezhuthu will complete the list.It was better than the first two but still lacked something-I can't put my finger on it.

It's time Mani goes back to making simple films with strong but subtle emotions.That's his forte.

[Cinefan]

And Yes,I would love it if he goes back to IR.

Mani-IR >Mani-ARR anyday.

Next I will have Maddy,alias jumping on me :D

[rajdes]

Naattamai, sariya padicuttu post-pannum. I expressed amazement that someone could call Mahendran a 4-film wonder.
Adhukkula, gap-la pazhiyai en melaye pottuttere!

[Shankar]

nAttAmai theerpai mAtri sollum :-)

[Shankar]

>>>>>

This will be followed by 'Dil Se'-gr8 music,bad film-completely lacked soul.

Aytha Ezhuthu will complete the list.It was better than the first two but still lacked something-I can't put my finger on it.
<<<<<<

You've quoted almost all post-Raja era movies of MR (was the change of "technical" crew a hint of degradation to come ) ;-)....nArAyaNa...nArAyaNa...

[Shankar]

>>>>>>>>
And Yes,I would love it if he goes back to IR.
<<<<<<<
I'd rather he doesn't...There are enuf spentforces working with Raja already (fazil - what sayst thou, alwarpet ??) :-)

[thumburu]

Digression :
Mani was not even a one film wonder when MounaRagam came. His first 2 Tamil films were pathetic (Pagal nilavu, Ikoil ] .
Mahendran just made less than 8-9 movies and among them I can say atleast 5 were classics [iam not talking in commercial terms at all]. I rate MuLLum malarum, UPookal, Metti, Nandu, NenjathaiKiLLadhe, KannukkuMaiAzhagu as films which should find a permanent place in the annals if TF hjistory. Johnny was decent though not great as per Mahendran standards . I personally liked Poottaadha PootukkaL too for being refreshingly different . Two films which I felt that succumbed to commercial format are "Azhagiya Kanne" and "Kai kodukkum Kai". Even his unreleased film Saasanam had an unusual storyline . I consider him as just plain unfortunate. I think his shrewd son is making up for that :)
Cinefan, Mounaragam is a sadder theme as Revathi loses her soon to be hubby and the scar is bound to be deep . Only time and Mohan's good heartedness have to heal the deep wound and that is what Mani shows too.
In NK, it is more challenging to the director to bring about a change in suhasini's mind. She is just using her marriage as a vent to her anger and frustration [on Mohan and her sis in law]. She is psychologically more complicated than Revathy . We viewers can easily empathize with Revathy and understand why she seeks a divorce. But in suhasini's case , it is not so easy. The viewers either go with Sarathbabu's stance of annuling the marriage and leave her husband in peace or take prathappothan's stance to wait endlessly for his wife to change her heart and accept him. The director just uses Mohan as a catalyst to bring about the change eventhough it is a bit cinematic. Also that keech-mechanic track stood out like sore thumb.

[Cinefan]

Shankar,
Don't put words in my mouth :D

Let's look at the post Raja movies of MR(The comments are strictly my opinion):

1)Roja-I just loved the movie,was in first year of college&remember seeing it 6-7 times in the theatre

2)Thiruda Thiruda-Gr8 caper,still can't believe it flopped. Did gr8 business in Bangalore though.

3)Bombay-already commented upon

4)Iruvar-All that MGR-Karunanidhi hype killed the film.Otherwise a very good one&an amazing performance from Mohan Lal.

Think Kamal was Mani's first choice for Prakash Raj's character.Mohal Lal&Kamal-will it ever happen???

5)Dil Se-already commented upon.

6)Alai payuthey-Good film,became a gr8 one to me becos I was in love at that time&was facing similar circumstances at home :wink:

7)Kannathil Muthamaittal-One of his very best,I&My wife saw the film at Urvashi(night show,full house)&couldn't control the tears.IR would have elevated the movie to even more greater heights.Still can't believe ARR got a national award for that.

8)Aytha Ezuthu-Already commented upon.

Comparisons with Fazil are not fair&I don't believe Mani is a spent force.He has it in him to get something special from IR still.

As I already said,he just needs to go back&make a simple film.

[MrJudge]

Naattamai, sariya padicuttu post-pannum. I expressed amazement that someone could call Mahendran a 4-film wonder.
Adhukkula, gap-la pazhiyai en melaye pottuttere!

Yes, I perfectily understood what you wrote in your message. The term "Mahendran 4-film wonder" appeared only in your post not in Maddy's. That is what I wrote. I did not say that you called Mahendran a 4-film wonder.

[MADDY]

i was the one who called mahendran a 4-film wonder.....and i stand by it.....prove me wrong by giving more movies that did well.....FYI even johnny was a flop so he is no more than a 3-film wonder......whereas MR is a legend with more than 20 yrs in the industry, most respected dir from south, countless NAs, more than 70% success rate, his movie featuring in top 100 movies of all time (global), broke the UK/US markets with Dil Se and many more achievements buddies......u guys have any point to make on mahendran's side???? u guys like mahendran- gr8 i respect it but if u try to put down MR then it is a bad thing......

shankar, y do u always think lesser recognised ppl. r more classy???u used the same arguement for IR-ARR thread , nuthin succeeds like success.....and to the arguement that Bombay was a bad movie, i just cannot accept it.....ask any mumbaiite, he'll tell u it is agud film cos they know wat riots mean.....we have no idea sitting comfortably in TN........

and finally, i love MR-IR combo more than MR-ARR combo, it is a fact.......naradha, take some rest buddy....

[Jacky]

The biggest plus for Mahendran is realism quoted with believable emotions. MR has done it a few times with Mouna Ragam, Anjali, and Kannathil Muthamittal. And the flip side is, Can Mahendran take a Bombay, Roja, Agni Natshatram or Alaipayuthey packaging all the necessary box office fundamentals? He can't. MR is more versatile overall and is on par but not lesser in Mahendran's forte. If Uthiripookal is a classic for its blatant realism, Balu Mahendra's Veedu, Pasi and MR's KM are no way inferior.

[rajdes]

Mr Country Tortoise(pardon the translation),
MADDY himself has taken ownership for the term. He created it , not me.
Maddy,
Just leave it man. You cant see where we come from.Enna points venum? How many all time great tamil films have Mahen and MR taken? You count and decide.

Success cannot be the sole criteria for judging a person. Appadi paartha, George Bush-ai endha kanakkula serkaradhu?

[rajdes]

Maddy,
I wish someone associated with the Bombay movie gets caught in a RIOT situation, try what Aravindswamy tries in the movie to pacify the crowd. Appo theriyum, riot control-na ennannu.
Bombay-na udane gnabagam varadhu Manusha gorilla..chee.manisha koirala dhaan :-)

[abbydoss1969]

Maddy,
I wish someone associated with the Bombay movie gets caught in a RIOT situation, try what Aravindswamy tries in the movie to pacify the crowd. Appo theriyum, riot control-na ennannu.
Bombay-na udane gnabagam varadhu Manusha gorilla..chee.manisha koirala dhaan :-) :rotfl: :rotfl:

[abbydoss1969]

One great thing about MR, is that most directors fade away after the first ten years. Take Bharatiraja, Balachader, Mahendran,or sridhar , their best work is done in the first ten years, then they may recycle their past works
But, MR is an exception. Even after 20 years, from his first kannada movie, his movies are still anticipated and watched.And every film has atleast something different photographically or technically. :mrgreen:

[app_engine]

Just thought I can add some fuel to the MR-Mahen fire...

Happened to see the picturisation of the song `pani vizhum iravu' from mouna rAgam recently (musically a beauty with some vocal harmony and innovative rhythm for its time...had a lot of replays in my walkman those days)...this was on a Raja hits VCD or something like that along with pagal nilavu songs and others..yuk:-(

MR mEla irundha admiration oru 10% koRanjiduchchu:-(

I haven't seen both these movies (NK & MR)...but love songs from both movies, each trend setters for the time.

NK:
-uRavenum pudhiya vAnil (grand bass section with sweet SPB/SJ...groovy)
-paruvamE pudhiya pAdal pAdu (melting interludes with extraordinary strings/ flute combo, another sweetie from SPB/SJ)
-Eh thendRalE (what a lovely chorus)

All the songs were way ahead of their times! Just get them recorded using today's tech, retaining the original notes, instruments & vocals somehow, these will be super hit songs. And if you don't tell who is the MD, fans of ARR will claim it's their MD's and fans of HJ, YSR etc too in a similar way. This album is indeed a pioneer for all the DECENT works of current MD's, along with moondRam piRai's `poongAtRu pudhidhAnadhu' (not for the beatsy, kuthu numbers)

MR:
-manjam vandha thendRalukku (majestic wind interludes / accompaniments with jazzy rhythm)
-nilAvE vA (suitable when you're in bed and want something to soothe you into slumber)
-chinna chinna vaNNakkuyil (thuLLal SJ, makes you feel elated, complex in the saraNam for a connoisseur)
-pani vizhum iravu (another SPB/SJ sweetie with intelligent rhythm / chorus arrangements)

However, unlike NK, the songs of MR have lost around 25% of their appeal to me (with the exception of vaNNakkuyil) from the time they came out and today...

[S.Balaji]

App..

Nice thoughtful posting....... but how you are attributing the longevity of Mouna ragam songs with MR ??
Is it not IR's decline in melody ( or rather IR becomming more of Instrumental oriented in the early 80s compared to Nenjathai Killadhey )

However, both the movies were very well picturised.....
Ashok kumar for Mahendran and Sriram for MR......

Ultimately my vote for the best picturisation and the song from both the movies will be ... PARUVAMAY PUDHIYA PAADAL PAADU...

In the lawns of Cubbon Park..... Great sight to see... early morning shots.....

[MADDY]

Just get them recorded using today's tech, retaining the original notes, instruments & vocals somehow, these will be super hit songs. And if you don't tell who is the MD, fans of ARR will claim it's their MD's

there's no need for us to credit someone else's work for our god okk.......ARR is the pioneer of digital music and he was the one who made stereophonic listening a delight........his muqabla had 7 replicas in hindi, his bombay theme has 12+ replicas around the globe....now tell me y wud such a person take cue from the other genius.....

rajdes, ur post seem very funny.....manisha koirala is a princess....adhu sari, rambha,kanaka,urvasi rangela heroines paartha ungalakku manisha, gorilla madhiridhan kaatchi alipanga.....

rajdes, even i know that a person shuld not be judged only on success but even on class, MR is no way inferior to mahendran....MR also displays feelings in a very subtle manner.....and reg bombay, u r talking abt the cinematic scene MR had to take to end the movie but have u watched the scene where manisha goes to shopping and sees VHP procession and gets terrified....wat a scene man.....gr8 BGM by ARR as well......it xactly displays the feelings of minority community as a whole....

[MADDY]

:D

[MADDY]

:D

[app_engine]

Balaji,
I didn't attribute the loss of appeal factor to Mani...it's just a statement about the songs of that specific movie. Though trendy, they lost some of their appeal over time.

OTOH, I still love most songs of agni* the same way when they stormed TN...I can listen to ninnukkOri / poongAvanam / vA vA anbE anbE / thoongAdha vizhigaL reNdu on repeat mode for hours on my player even now:-) The same goes with rAkkammA kaiyaththattu or nenjinilE, nenjinilE / kAdhal sadugudu...

Maddy, you said 'ARR is the pioneer of digital music and he was the one who made stereophonic listening a delight'...I agree partly with your observation, i.e. in the Indian context...however, his basic `composition style' for great songs somewhat follows the grammar of NK and poongAtRu, IMO...

[njv]

Balaji,
I didn't attribute the loss of appeal factor to Mani...it's just a statement about the songs of that specific movie. Though trendy, they lost some of their appeal over time.

OTOH, I still love most songs of agni* the same way when they stormed TN...I can listen to ninnukkOri / poongAvanam / vA vA anbE anbE / thoongAdha vizhigaL reNdu on repeat mode for hours on my player even now:-) The same goes with rAkkammA kaiyaththattu or nenjinilE, nenjinilE / kAdhal sadugudu...

Maddy, you said 'ARR is the pioneer of digital music and he was the one who made stereophonic listening a delight'...I agree partly with your observation, i.e. in the Indian context...however, his basic `composition style' for great songs somewhat follows the grammar of NK and poongAtRu, IMO...

Athu yenna OTOH, NK, IMO ... konja acronyma expand pannungalenpa. OKI.

[njv]

7)Kannathil Muthamaittal-One of his very best,I&My wife saw the film at Urvashi(night show,full house)&couldn't control the tears.IR would have elevated the movie to even more greater heights.Still can't believe ARR got a national award for that.

Cinefan,

I dont know how the awards are determined. If it is based only on the songs, then KM has every reason to get an award. "Oru Deivam Thantha Poove" is worth more than an award. To me this song and the song from WOHE are truly breath-taking songs of ARR.

[nkv]

Why MR is inferior to Mahendran is,

Mahendran's movies, at any point of time, will not sound vulgur. Be it Nenjathai Killathey or Johny or Uthirippookkal or Mullum Malarum...the craftsmenship of a director at its best. And all the above movies were commercial success, without any hip-swinging numbers (probably, Aasayakaathula Thoothu Vittu is the only one in that category).

But many Manirathanam movies (Agninatchathiram & Geethanjali the best examples) are having a fair amount of Vulgur scenes which dequalifies them for being watched along with family. Even movies which had good storylines, had these kind of numbers - totally unwanted (September Matham, Arabikkadaloram, Nila Athu Vanathu Mele, etc etc)

Manirathnam is a good Technician - We can see the technical perfection in each and every aspect of the movie - be it music, camera or whatever. But to become an exceptional director, he has to travel a lot more..

It explains why ManiRathnam has still not got a National Award either for best director or the Movie. Kamal bagged one for Nayakan, ARR for Roja & Kannathil, but not Mani..

Coming to Songs of Mounaragam and Nenjathai Killathey, i would rate Nenjathai Killathey as better coz it was a trend setter. Mounaragam is also equally good, but the freshness is lost somewhere, may be because of the repeated appearances in the channels..

Each time when you hear 'Uravenum Puthiya Vaanil' and 'Eh Thendraley..' you can discover a new instrument in the orchestra.. As somebody told, if the technology was great those days, these songs would have gone somewhere..

Strictly speaking on the quality of the music alone, such a quality music has never re-appeared in Tamil, not even from Ilayaraja, barring some occasional gems from Vidyasagar.

[rajdes]

Further DIGRESSIONon the already Digressed thread
maddy, cut the crap, man. Dont put words in my mouth.
Manisha pathi comment adicha , you will assume the person is a rambha-fan?

BTW, I didnt even remember names like Rambha, Kanaka etc. neenga sonnadhukkappuram dhaan appadi ellam heroine irundhaanga-nu vague-aa gnabagam varudhu. So, it seems like they made a greater impact with you :-)

END DIGRESSION
END DISCUSSION ON HEROINES (from my side atleast)

[rajdes]

Further DIGRESSIONon the already Digressed thread
maddy, cut the crap, man. Dont put words in my mouth.
Manisha pathi comment adicha , you will assume the person is a rambha-fan?

BTW, I didnt even remember names like Rambha, Kanaka etc. neenga sonnadhukkappuram dhaan appadi ellam heroine irundhaanga-nu vague-aa gnabagam varudhu. So, it seems like they made a greater impact with you :-)

END DIGRESSION
END DISCUSSION ON HEROINES (from my side atleast)

[Shankar]

i was the one who called mahendran a 4-film wonder.....and i stand by it.....prove me wrong by giving more movies that did well.....FYI even johnny was a flop so he is no more than a 3-film wonder......whereas MR is a legend with more than 20 yrs in the industry, most respected dir from south, countless NAs, more than 70% success rate, his movie featuring in top 100 movies of all time (global), broke the UK/US markets with Dil Se and many more achievements buddies......u guys have any point to make on mahendran's side???? u guys like mahendran- gr8 i respect it but if u try to put down MR then it is a bad thing......

shankar, y do u always think lesser recognised ppl. r more classy???u used the same arguement for IR-ARR thread , nuthin succeeds like success.....and to the arguement that Bombay was a bad movie, i just cannot accept it.....ask any mumbaiite, he'll tell u it is agud film cos they know wat riots mean.....we have no idea sitting comfortably in TN........

and finally, i love MR-IR combo more than MR-ARR combo, it is a fact.......naradha, take some rest buddy....

Maddy,
You and I use totally different scales to measure the greatness of a person !! As you have admitted yourself, you go ONLY by the commercial success of the person....I go by - how much impact the person had on ME, the individual...I don't give a damn what some unknown bunch of people think of him....That's the reason, why I rate a relatively Unknown MD called Sharath (ever heard of him ?...I'm sure you haven't, bcos he's not successful commercially, though many people with good taste have loved his music) a very good composer !

its not that I am saying lesser recognized ppl are classy...I am complaining that lesser talents are more popular and many people are worshipping them...I am lamenting about the fact of mediocrity ruling the scene !! (I'm happy for kamal, Raja, arr and PC sreeram bocs they are good and they are popular...Not everyone is lucky in that sense)

your arguments like "the most respected director from south", "breaking records in UK/US" etc don't mean anything to me....Anumalik is more popular than Raja in UK & US ? What does it imply ???? I don't give a damn what those people think about Raja...and I know what kind of taste those guys (the majority of them) have !!

Bombay was INDEED a bad movie....the cliched hindu-muslim love theme (beaten to death by ppl like BR), inflicting wound (sux big time), and trying to preach a MOB !!!!!! What a lousy end to a movie...Man, the person preaching is NOT Gandhi to keep people spellbound....some vague unknown entity is trying to stop the riots...and everyone drops their weopons it seems...yArum ingE kAdhula poo suthiNdu alayavillai !!!

People like mahendran, (the first few films) of R C Sakthi, rudrayya were never recognized....We need more people like Adoor Gopalkrishnan, Girish Kasaravalli, Rituparno ghosh & Bharathan and not these half baked self-proclaimed-intellects like MR, SLB and Karan Johars.

[nkv]

Maddy,

The most respected Director from the south is not Manirathnam, its Adoor Gopalakrishnan, For Your Information.

The recent Dadasaheb Phalke Award explains it.

It was these directors like Adoor, Girish etc who made Indian Movies heard in the International Level. Manirathnam movies may have broke collection records in US/UK, but they are watched by Indians only..

Its common with Indians to project mediocority as glory..
Thats why Indian Classical Elements are less popular. We rate commercial directors, Musicians and dancers as GREAT!!
Its sheer injustice done towards the true legends..

BOMBAY was a commercial masala, taken JUST with the intention of making money out of a controversial matter. There is not even a single element of CLASS in that movie.
All Mumabites may term it as great, because they have not got an oppurtunity yet to watch class movies.

In short Manirathnam is a great commercial Director.
But nver a great director. He can be termed as the 'Subhash Ghai' of the south. Nothing More.

[mr_karthik]

Dear all.

See the effect of the discussions. Before I posted my comment about some weak points of Nayagan, this thread was lying bottum of the forum with few cooments (less than 40). Now after my posting only you are all "veeru kondu ezhundhu" started to discuss deeply, not only about Nayagan but spreaded in various wings and number of comments crossed a century (106 till now)

Apart from Nayagan, there are deep analysis about Mouna RAgam, Nenjathai kiLLAthE, UthiripookaL, Bombay and somany movies of Manirathnam and Mahendran. I am happy to see all comments are healthy and valuable (except very few).

So, please dont want to sit in an Assembly where there is no opposition party. Discussions in various views only will bring several facts out. Otherwise there will be nothing, except "jalra" sound.

[S.Balaji]

As Karthik rightly pointed out, both MR and Mahendran are great and creative directors.... Lets give the benefit of time factor to Mahendran and we all will realise that Mahendran was far ahead of times during his days.... A very innovative director.... Brought charm and refreshness to Tamil film industry.....
Nenjathai killadhey itself will speak volumes about his talent greatness..
Its sad that he could not make more movies .... we are the losers...

[Jacky]

[tscii:a7df85e047]What's so great about Mullum Maralum? It has sibling love painted all over it. Had we not had flicks like Pasamalar before? Take Anjali, it's an unexplored theme in Tamil Cinema – about the life of a special child or Kannathil Muthamital where a child yearns to see her biological mother. Has Mahendran done anything unique like that with path breaking scripts? Again Johny, double action, one guy is innocent and other is a rogue. Had we not had MGR movies like that before? In terms of innovative scripts Mahendran definitely loses to Maniratnam. [/tscii:a7df85e047]

[S.Balaji]

Yes even Agni Natchatiram as well.... Vijaykumar's agony and predicament was well portrayed by MR.... the likely things that a man who is in high esteem in Society... with 2 wives ... what he can undergo... RIght from the basics.... Back home between the wives.... Cold war.... between the sons....... ( ofcourse the electrifying BGM of IR... whenever Prabhu and Karthik cross each other ).... in between ... Vijay kumar sharing his love and affection equally with both the families and finally how they get united.... when their father himself is down.... to show that blood is thicker finally.........

Though it was like a masala movie... it had all the elements....of a family melodrama.........

[S.Balaji]

[tscii:b2753e0c7c]What's so great about Mullum Maralum? It has sibling love painted all over it. Had we not had flicks like Pasamalar before? Take Anjali, it's an unexplored theme in Tamil Cinema – about the life of a special child or Kannathil Muthamital where a child yearns to see her biological mother. Has Mahendran done anything unique like that with path breaking scripts? Again Johny, double action, one guy is innocent and other is a rogue. Had we not had MGR movies like that before? In terms of innovative scripts Mahendran definitely loses to Maniratnam. [/tscii:b2753e0c7c]

Jacky dear........

Wait and see ... after 20 or 25 years.... MR will be compared with a new generation guy .... and you will realise the truth........

Very few guys had the guts..those days to venture with Rajini for a movie like ...... Kai kodukkum kai.... ( only one fight )...Rajini was portrayed a village man.... with estranged wife.... How he manages....

[Jacky]

[tscii:86bf162d62]You didnt get my point Balaji. if you have the patience go back to previous pages to see my praise on Mahendran.
I don't see anything great in Rajni doing a movie with one fight. In Dharmadurai he hardly talks for half the movie. Plus he has done Ragavendra and a few other movies without Masala elements till Thalapathy.
My point is simple - Innovative scripts, definitely Maniratnam scores over Mahendran.
Mahendran’s best was Udhiripookal but then I don’t have any hesitation in saying KamalHassan beat Udhiripookal with Mahanadi-Blatant realism like never shown before. I'm not saying this to look down at Udhiripookal but just to cite a better effort and to place my point that Mahendran is not the ultimate God or frontier.

[/tscii:86bf162d62]

[nkv]

Dear Jacky,

Have you seen anywhere, in your whole life, kids behaving as in Anjali and KM? Frankly, I have not.

With the exception of Shyamili in Anjali, all the other kids were behaving like youths.. By uttering dioulgues beyond their comprehension...why, even the body language of the kids were suggesting that these people are grown ups..

Kids should sound like Kids.. The scene were Tharun shouts a KM length dialogue to his friends, i wonder what ourselves were, when wer studying in Schools..

The credit is that Mani took lot of pain to make the kids act.. Yes i appreciate that..But the characters looked artificial..Overacting at its best (but well-disguised inside extra-ordinary music and scren-play).

[Jacky]

nkv,
nobody is flawless. Neither MR nor Mahendran. I was just evaluating them from their positives.

[nkv]

Ok..Ok...

I always felt very sorry after watching certain MR movies..Because, MR had came up with some extra-ordinary themes, which were ahead of the times.. like Anjali etc..But somehow, he succumbed to the commercial elements in the movie, making some of them like Geethanjali unbearable.

Personally, I enjoyed Nayakan and KM very much. Should be the best MR movies

[S.Balaji]

Ok..Ok...

I always felt very sorry after watching certain MR movies..Because, MR had came up with some extra-ordinary themes, which were ahead of the times.. like Anjali etc..But somehow, he succumbed to the commercial elements in the movie, making some of them like Geethanjali unbearable.

Personally, I enjoyed Nayakan and KM very much. Should be the best MR movies

I heard , Anjali was an inspiration from Extra Terrestrial......ET ?? Is it true ?

[Shankar]

Dear Jacky,

Have you seen anywhere, in your whole life, kids behaving as in Anjali and KM? Frankly, I have not.

With the exception of Shyamili in Anjali, all the other kids were behaving like youths.. By uttering dioulgues beyond their comprehension...why, even the body language of the kids were suggesting that these people are grown ups..

Kids should sound like Kids.. The scene were Tharun shouts a KM length dialogue to his friends, i wonder what ourselves were, when wer studying in Schools..

The credit is that Mani took lot of pain to make the kids act.. Yes i appreciate that..But the characters looked artificial..Overacting at its best (but well-disguised inside extra-ordinary music and scren-play).

BINGO !!! I had gone out for lunch....otherwise you wud've seen me post the same thing for Jacky's post !!!!!

None of the kids in MR movies, Keerthana in KM, tarun/shruti/their friends in Anjali behave like kids....You know they are made to act...they are never natural. The only natural actor in KM was the woman playing madhavan's sister....Everyone else looked artificial...

Jacky,
Nobody here claimed Mahendran is the greatest director ever...All I am saying is that, He's leagues ahead of MR as a director (as a technician MR is better)

All his main characters don't look real...tarun giving a lengthy dialogue to kids...arvind swamy addressing the mob and everyone drops their weapons (the movie lost all its seriousness there) !!

[Shankar]

balaji,
One scene in a song (kids flying in bicycle) in anjali was inspired by ET...It has no other common scenes whatsoever.

[Shankar]

[tscii:e89724748a]>>>>>>>>
Mahendran’s best was Udhiripookal but then I don’t have any hesitation in saying KamalHassan beat Udhiripookal with Mahanadi-Blatant realism like never shown before.
<<<<<<<<<

I partially agree....An intersting fact since both kamal and mahendran are mentioned here.

Mahendran was short of funds for completing the RR/dubbing for uthirippokkaL, and it was kamal who funded him and mahendran finished the movie...But unfortunately, two of the most important people in Tamil Films have never worked together.[/tscii:e89724748a]

[S.Balaji]

balaji,
One scene in a song (kids flying in bicycle) in anjali was inspired by ET...It has no other common scenes whatsoever.

yes yes I am aware of that song.... but what about the character ... ANJALI..... Any similarity with ET character ?? Pl enlighten me...
Because, it was big rumour those days.... on this... aspect.....

[Shankar]

Maddy,

The most respected Director from the south is not Manirathnam, its Adoor Gopalakrishnan, For Your Information.

The recent Dadasaheb Phalke Award explains it.

It was these directors like Adoor, Girish etc who made Indian Movies heard in the International Level. Manirathnam movies may have broke collection records in US/UK, but they are watched by Indians only..

Its common with Indians to project mediocority as glory..
Thats why Indian Classical Elements are less popular. We rate commercial directors, Musicians and dancers as GREAT!!
Its sheer injustice done towards the true legends..

BOMBAY was a commercial masala, taken JUST with the intention of making money out of a controversial matter. There is not even a single element of CLASS in that movie.
All Mumabites may term it as great, because they have not got an oppurtunity yet to watch class movies.

In short Manirathnam is a great commercial Director.
But nver a great director. He can be termed as the 'Subhash Ghai' of the south. Nothing More.

NKV,

How does it matter whether mumbaiites like th movie or not...Who are they to judge a movie ?!?! If people are used to SRK's antics, and amithabh's melodrama, people like MR would defintely look like geniuses !!! Nobody can blame them bcos they haven't got the exposure to movies like VidhEyan, nizhalkuthu or mathilugaL (adoor), moonAm pakkam (padmarajan) or avaL appadithAn (rudrayya) or haseena / dweepa (girish kasaravaLLi - I haven't seen these 2 movies...but heard they are great!)

[Shankar]

Balaji,
The way the other kids "alien"ate shamili was probably the only common link :-) . I think its an original work of MR.

[S.Balaji]

[tscii:2bee927487]
Balaji,
The way the other kids "alien"ate shamili was probably the only common link :-) . I think its an original work of MR.

In Anjali, the shot which I enjoy even today…. Is during the song… ANJALI ANJALI ANJALI…. There will be 2 shots… which will show VKR and Charuhasan playing with Anjali… Actually these 2 gentlemen will strongly oppose the existence of Anjali in that Colony as in their opinion, it might affect other children….. and Raghuvaran will forcefully react to it..
BUT WHEN THESE 2 ELDERLY PEOPLE WERE SHOWN PLAYING DURING THE SONG…. It says it all…. Everything is ok now………. GREAT SENSE OF PRESENTATION BY MR… I admire him just for this shot…….
[/tscii:2bee927487]

[Jacky]

[tscii:2e86a2504d]Shankar,
When you complain about the lack of logic in Arvind swamy addressing a mob the same holds good for Sridevi's climax song (Johny) on stage despite the whole city being shut down for cyclone. In such situation will the police allow a public gathering to happen? Where will she get the power? Will there not be short circuits during heavy rains? Ask people who faced the recent Bombay blackout and they will tell you what it is to be out during cyclones. Mahendran used them cleverly to dramatize the climax! Nobody is flawless.
I quite don’t agree with overacting in KM. Madhavan underplayed his role well and Simran’s performance was very sensitive. Just watch the scenes where she plays a desperate mother.
[/tscii:2e86a2504d]

[thumburu]

Maddy, your knowledge of directors like Mahendran is pretty evident when you brush him off a 3 or 4 film wonder. Iam doubtful if you are even aware of movies like "Nandu", "metti" , leave alone them getting critically acclaimed by even popular mags like Kalki/AV[Remember their review standards were quite high those times]. I shudder to think what expert opinion you have in store for likes of AdoorG when somebody attempts to compare MR with them. Is it any wonder in a land where pedestrian films like "chandramuki", "Anniyan" are celebrated , an above average MR is accorded the highest pedestal ?
"aalai illa oorukku iluppaipoo chakkarai" case thaan.

[S.Balaji]

Maddy, your knowledge of directors like Mahendran is pretty evident when you brush him off a 3 or 4 film wonder. Iam doubtful if you are even aware of movies like "Nandu", "metti" , leave alone them getting critically acclaimed by even popular mags like Kalki/AV[Remember their review standards were quite high those times]. I shudder to think what expert opinion you have in store for likes of AdoorG when somebody attempts to compare MR with them. Is it any wonder in a land where pedestrian films like "chandramuki", "Anniyan" are celebrated , an above average MR is accorded the highest pedestal ?
"aalai illa oorukku iluppaipoo chakkarai" case thaan.

Thumburu,

Well said... Apt posting. I am also a fan of MR but it sad to see comparing with Mahendran and drawing parallels...
Pavam Maddy... Vitturunga avarai.... I realised his level of analysis when he mentioned Mahendran as a 4 film wonder.....
I am saying this emphatically as I have been fortunate enough to witness the phase of both Mahendran and MR.....

[nilavupriyan]

Maddy, your knowledge of directors like Mahendran is pretty evident when you brush him off a 3 or 4 film wonder. Iam doubtful if you are even aware of movies like "Nandu", "metti" , leave alone them getting critically acclaimed by even popular mags like Kalki/AV[Remember their review standards were quite high those times]. I shudder to think what expert opinion you have in store for likes of AdoorG when somebody attempts to compare MR with them. Is it any wonder in a land where pedestrian films like "chandramuki", "Anniyan" are celebrated , an above average MR is accorded the highest pedestal ?
"aalai illa oorukku iluppaipoo chakkarai" case thaan.

u r 100% right......once mahendran,balu mahendra etc joined hands with ir to give some wonderful films with great photography...now its a wonder to watch one movie of those types.....


we are saying a..ah,anniyan are good now.... :lol:

[Jacky]

Instead of diverting the topic to ah aah, anniyan Mahendran fans can explain say why nandu and metti are better than Anjali, Roja or KM.

[saradhaa_sn]

Just to relax from Manirathnam (vs) Mahendran, I want you to thow your sight here.

In 80s there was a saying that,
"Both Barathiraja and Balu Mahendra got inspired from an English movie. They took the theme only and handled in their own way, with simple corrections. They are:
"Sigappu Rojaakkal" by BR and
"Moodu Pani" by BM."

Can anybody elaborate this??.

[abbydoss1969]

Just to relax from Manirathnam (vs) Mahendran, I want you to thow your sight here.

In 80s there was a saying that,
"Both Barathiraja and Balu Mahendra got inspired from an English movie. They took the theme only and handled in their own way, with simple corrections. They are:
"Sigappu Rojaakkal" by BR and
"Moodu Pani" by BM."

Can anybody elaborate this??.
John Fowles's first novel was "The Collector"(1963), a story of a young clerk ,a butterfly collector, who kidnaps a young woman.It was made into a film directed by the great William Wyler.
John Fowles also wrote "The French Lieutenant's woman" (which was also made into a movie , and "Magus" amoung other works.

Following is a review of 'the Collector" the film by william wyler:

'I suppose it was the loneliness and being far away from anything else that made me decide to buy the house. And after I did I told myself I'd never go through with the plan, even though I'd made all the preparations and knew where she was every minute of the day.'

With these opening lines, Freddie Clegg (Terence Stamp) confirms to the viewer that a ride of haunting and psychological suspense is in store for all who attempt to harness a personality so perplexing and multilayered. Clegg possesses a personality that dwells in the valley of sexual repression and delayed maturity, skirting peaks of gauche inferiority to his surrounding peers. His life revolves around the low of his dreary job as a bank clerk to what he considers his supreme hold on life as he knows it -- the collecting of butterflies. He has just won a considerable amount of money on the English football pools and what he intends to do with it is the gist of this tale -- the collection of a human specimen in the form of London art student, Miranda Grey (Samantha Eggar).

Clegg purchases an Elizabethan country estate that holds the prize of ancient cellars that will contain his quarry. Once Miranda has been spirited away in a kidnapping by him, the real story begins. A game of cat and mouse ensues and over the course of the erupting minutes, one is never quite sure what will or will not happen. Will she escape or will evil prevail?

Terence Stamp and Samantha Eggar have etched luminous performances under the direction of veteran Hollywood director, William Wyler. Stamp's Clegg is horrifying in an obscene way, for he projects terror as can only be portrayed by one who is truly mad and consorting with harbingers of class distinction as he perceives them to be. He is that most capable of monsters who needs no makeup or agents from the supernatural world to make his mark, but rather the corrupt nature of a beast that blends so well into the woodwork as to be unseen to the naked eye. The precision of each move he makes and the play from his dark eyes as they change, chameleon like, from drone to madman, are a marvelous and terrifying thing to see.

Samantha Eggar is Stamp's perfect foil, the hunted as pursued by the hunter, in a match that will determine her ultimate fate. She is in a damned if you do and damned if you don't situation. She morphs from a carefree, young art student to a woman caught in a web of deceit, sexual outbursts and insanity. She has become the latest 'catch' for Clegg, the crown jewel of his collection. Miranda has only one way out -- to learn to love Clegg by being his 'guest'. Will she? It will become a battle of survival of the fittest.

The Collector is based upon the novel by John Fowles that created such a stir in the early 60's. The book took the form of a diary as written by Miranda after her capture and betrayed all of the emotions, gambits and tragedies that befell the twosome. The screenplay as written by Stanley Mann and John Kohn is quite literate and maintains a steady stream of interest in this royal battle of the sexes. They were both nominated for and Oscar Best Screenplay, along with Wyler for Best Director and Eggar as Best Actress. Wyler is best known as the director of such perennial favourites as Ben Hur, The Best Years of Our Lives and Wuthering Heights.

While the acting takes place on a very limited set for the most part and a feeling of a stage production making itself evident, the story and the acting are the glue that hold the production together. The latter two are superbly realized.

The soundtrack is by veteran composer Maurice Jarre, and while it is effective for the most part, at times it is too much and presents a dilemma. Less can sometimes be more. Jarre seems unsure in his attempts and while a theme runs throughout the film, elements that seem to be presented for effect get in the way. Jarre is capable of much better when presented with a real challenge.

This film is a quiet little gem; that diamond in the rough that is either overlooked or never quite discovered for the wonder that it is. It is a decided change of pace from productions that would have been profoundly filled with blood, gore and special effects to get their point across. What wonders the English language can project when put into capable hands and minds. The Collector is available on video, but may present a challenge to locate. If you are lucky enough to track a version down, you will not be disappointed. The Collector will stay with you long after it has ended and that, for me, is the mark of a truly great film.

Also check:http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0059043/ :wink:

[app_engine]

Not to deviate much from `music', (there is another forum for merits / demerits of movies themselves in the Hub), we got to acknowledge that all these directors BM, BR, MR & Mahen had great taste when it comes to songs...their choices from the composers were usually special treats for TN:-)

Accordingly, who cares whether S RojakkaL or moodupani got inspired from some psycho-serial-killer movie (there are dozens of them in Hollywood as well as news stories BTW), since both had really great songs - trend setting and ahead of their times!

SR - both ninaivO oru paRavai & indha minminikku had classic orchestration and lovely singing by SJ.

MP - IR's 100th movie had this gem `en iniya pon nilAvE' with great guitar work and chorus. paruva kAlangaLin kanavu had excellent humming by SJ and also some great chorus - very futuristic song again...the two liner `AsaipponnE AreerO' is a sweet lullaby with flute accompaniment...

njv, expansions:
IMHO - in my humble opinion
OTOH - on the other hand
NK - nenjaththai kiLLAdhE, the movie which was discussed in detail above...you can decipher the rest similarly in context:-) (AmA, njv'la first two letters New Jercy'yA?)

[MADDY]

hoho there is mini maddy bashing here....i just love it.....well, u guys could not digest the fact that someone called Mahendran a 4-film wonder but u guys expect me to bear with all anti-MR tirade???yendha ooru nyayam......see, i'm not spineless....i have a opinion and i'm never afraid to put it out.....i have the spine in me to call SRK a good actor, ARR=IR, mahendran a 4-film wonder, Kamal hassan as an irritatingly artificial guy, MR an eternal genius....i wont change these things even when kept a pistol on my head....okk vaa???i simple hate mahendran's movies.....they r so depressing and are not the ideal sunday-afternoon movies which u wud like to watch with ur family biting a pizza and sipping a coke...come on guys, if i dunt find that guy good then y the heck ther is so much hara-kiri?

but tell me one thing- is there anyone in mahendran camp who was born in 80's or 90's????he shuld have born in mahendran's era and shuld have grown in MR's era....even if there is a single such guy, i take back my statement on mahendran......see, u guys watched mahendran in ur teens or childhood so like him but i grew to MR's exploits, so i dunt find mahendran more xciting than MR.....i just dunno y ppl. working in s/w companies and in holding esteemed positions in abroad fail to understand this simple logic....

[app_engine]

maddy, cool down...BTW, what are those 4 films of Mahendran?:-)

appuRam oru vishayam...chance kedachchA `pani vizhum iravu' namma eternal genius eppadi picturise paNNi irukkArnu konjam maRupadiyum pArungO...koodavE, `maina-maina-mAman pudichcha mainA'nnu pagal nilavula oru pAttu irukkum, adhuvum konjam videola pArungO...:-)

[app_engine]

Back to IR...(idhu avaru forumungO:-))

While discussing the songs of NK and moodupani, I was nostalgic towards the beautiful, sophisticated, westernised chorus he used to deliver in the past...

-first interlude of `en iniya pon nilAvE'
-saraNam of `paruva kAlangaLin kanavu'
-pallavi of `Eh thendRalE, ini nALum pAda vA'
-prelude of `kAdhal oviyam, pAdum kAviyam'
-2nd intelude of `madai thiRandhu'
-prelude of `andhi mazhai pozhigiRadhu'

Other MD's prior to him / his contemporaries too delivered similar beauties...
-`nAn unnai vAzhthippAdugiREn' (VK)
-'poovinum melliya poongodi' (S-G)
-'ivaL dhEvadhai, idhazh mAdhuLai' (Shyam)
-'azhagiya thamizh magaL ivaL' (MSV)

For some reason IR stopped using such `kuzhuvinar' sometime in late 80's...though there are beautiful group singing, vocal harmony etc, this sophistication was really missed...(a brief one in the prelude of `mArugO mArugO mArugaiyE' notwithstanding)...I'm not sure whether any of current MD's resort to such sophisticated chorus either...

I'm not 100% sure whether Raja equated such sounds with church and had done away with them in the later part of his career - with growth of Indian classical influences upon him...but moodupani was hardly church stuff and neither was NK...may be he equated that with sophistication? confusing...Or was it the requirement of directors...A song like `oliyilE therivadhu dhEvadhiyA' could have been enhanced a lot by such chorus in interludes...

[njv]

AmA, njv'la first two letters New Jercy'yA?)
AmAngo!

[saradhaa_sn]

App,

There are 'chorus preludes' in several songs.

example: "Devaney...ennai paarungal" in Gnana oli by MSV.

[Cinefan]

Mahendran was short of funds for completing the RR/dubbing for uthirippokkaL, and it was kamal who funded him and mahendran finished the movie...But unfortunately, two of the most important people in Tamil Films have never worked together.

A small correction,Kamal helped Mahendran with funds for Mullum Malarum&not Uthiripookkal.

I am 100% sure becos I read it in a interview of Mahendran in 'Kumudam'not very long back.

He helped not only for RR/dubbing but also for the sets&technical equipment for shooting for a week(If I am not wrong).

[thumburu]

Digression:
Maddy , Nobody here questions or cares about your preferences or loyalty. Why? Cinefan has clearly stated he prefers Mani to Mahendran. You are being ridiculed here not for liking Mani, but for barging into any thread where ever your favorite director or MD is being criticized or compared and throwing your "adhi medhaavithanamaana" remark on whoever is being compared with. To top it all, you have the indecency to resort to cheap, personal dig at DFers who have different views.

[njv]

Mahendran was short of funds for completing the RR/dubbing for uthirippokkaL, and it was kamal who funded him and mahendran finished the movie...But unfortunately, two of the most important people in Tamil Films have never worked together.

A small correction,Kamal helped Mahendran with funds for Mullum Malarum&not Uthiripookkal.

I am 100% sure becos I read it in a interview of Mahendran in 'Kumudam'not very long back.

He helped not only for RR/dubbing but also for the sets&technical equipment for shooting for a week(If I am not wrong).

All these are very well explained in rajini.com book. in a way with out KH rajni wont here in a place where he is now. I just dont know why they can act together.

[nilavupriyan]

Mahendran was short of funds for completing the RR/dubbing for uthirippokkaL, and it was kamal who funded him and mahendran finished the movie...But unfortunately, two of the most important people in Tamil Films have never worked together.

A small correction,Kamal helped Mahendran with funds for Mullum Malarum&not Uthiripookkal.

I am 100% sure becos I read it in a interview of Mahendran in 'Kumudam'not very long back.

He helped not only for RR/dubbing but also for the sets&technical equipment for shooting for a week(If I am not wrong).

All these are very well explained in rajini.com book. in a way with out KH rajni wont here in a place where he is now. I just dont know why they can act together.
:D
which is mahendran's last film?

[Sanjeevi]

Sathanam with hero Aravindhswamy. Unfortunately this film is not completed.

This film has been made for film institute. Mahendran liked IR to score music. But film institute was unable to give right salary for IR. Therefore IR rejected this film.

[nilavupriyan]

Sathanam with hero Aravindhswamy. Unfortunately this film is not completed.

This film has been made for film institute. Mahendran liked IR to score music. But film institute was unable to give right salary for IR. Therefore IR rejected this film.

last released movie?

[Sanjeevi]

Sathanam with hero Aravindhswamy. Unfortunately this film is not completed.

This film has been made for film institute. Mahendran liked IR to score music. But film institute was unable to give right salary for IR. Therefore IR rejected this film.

last released movie?

Sashanam release agiduchununna aththan last movie :lol:

Sorry I don't know. But his son's last film is Sachin, a flop movie both in qualify & box office.

[MrJudge]

which is mahendran's last film?

Last released movie: Kai kodukkum kai *ing Rajini, Revathy, Chinni Jayanth Year:1984

Unreleased movie: Sasanam *ing Arivind Samy

Also there was another movie titled "Uthiraatha Pookal". Looks like that movie is shelved too.

[nilavupriyan]

which is mahendran's last film?

Last released movie: Kai kodukkum kai *ing Rajini, Revathy, Chinni Jayanth Year:1984

Unreleased movie: Sasanam *ing Arivind Samy

Also there was another movie titled "Uthiraatha Pookal". Looks like that movie is shelved too.

"kai kodukkum kai" is directed in mahendran's style without more rajni gimmicks....why cant mahendran get into the field again where perarasu and shaaji kailash are shining

[MADDY]

thumburu:To top it all, you have the indecency to resort to cheap, personal dig at DFers who have different views.

can u gimme one instance of such a post.....i myself a victim of such indignant barrage from other MD fans, y shuld i do it myself.....and boss, i'm not from such a culture to make personal remarks against non-personal entities........it was u guys who wrote that my knowledge is very less and u guys very critical abt my level of analysis......

[MrJudge]

"kai kodukkum kai" is directed in mahendran's style without more rajni gimmicks....why cant mahendran get into the field again where perarasu and shaaji kailash are shining

That was the problem. Rajini was rising with his masala movies at that time and i think his fans could not digest the movie. It failed miserably at BO. Rajini had acted as villain in early 80s and Mahendran gave a new life to him in Mullum Malarum.. Rajini should have given chances to Mahendran to come out with something like Johny in late 80s to suit his image when he was minting money with SPM. But he never did that. :(

Only now the industry looks like in directors' control just like in early 70s or 80s. That is why he started his sasanam but with NFDC, a wrong decision he made. I hope he comes out with more healthier movies soon.

[rajdes]

maddy,
Thalaila pistol vecha kooda Mani-kku support pannuven-nu sollara ungaloda loyalty pullarikka vekkudhu. But, ore oruthar (80's person) vandhu "I prefer Mahen to Mani"-nu sonna, you will change your opinion-nu solli irukkengalae? Adhu dhaan udhaikkudhu? Pistol-ukku bayappadadha singam, yaaro orutharoda verum vaarthaikkaga unga opinion-ai mathikalama?

Coming to the Mani-Mahen issue, if your idea of a good movie is a pizza, coke, sunday afty companion, then I am afraid that you are never going to have a meeting of minds with Mahendran backers here, who have a completely different idea of a good movie.
Besides, the crux of your point is that "Others praise MR so he is great". (ie) West, North Indians etc have regarded Mani as great and he has broken down cultural barriers so you like him. That is to say, you are more influenced by sociological factors than cinematic factors. Appo, the conclusion from that evidence can only be that "Mani is a greater celebrity than Mahen", a point anyone will be willing to concede.

OTOH, there have been people here who have clearly stated what cinematic reasons they would advance to suggest that Mani is the creative equal, if not, better of Mahendran. Obviously, they will be taken more seriously if the discussion is on good cinema.


As an aside, you will have to reflect more honestly - you did make personal remarks against me(Calling me a ramba fan just for making a jocular remark on Manisha...aargh.. it is insulting, man: -) ), which, since I dont descend into canals even if opponents do, I didnt take seriously. If you were self-critical enough(considering your self-claimed culture), you would address the issue of descending to personal remarks just because you disagree with someone.



I think this thread has been flogged to death(with one of the chief culprits being myself). Admin should really consider closing this.

[Shankar]

maddy,
Thalaila pistol vecha kooda Mani-kku support pannuven-nu sollara ungaloda loyalty pullarikka vekkudhu. But, ore oruthar (80's person) vandhu "I prefer Mahen to Mani"-nu sonna, you will change your opinion-nu solli irukkengalae? Adhu dhaan udhaikkudhu? Pistol-ukku bayappadadha singam, yaaro orutharoda verum vaarthaikkaga unga opinion-ai mathikalama?

Coming to the Mani-Mahen issue, if your idea of a good movie is a pizza, coke, sunday afty companion, then I am afraid that you are never going to have a meeting of minds with Mahendran backers here, who have a completely different idea of a good movie.
Besides, the crux of your point is that "Others praise MR so he is great". (ie) West, North Indians etc have regarded Mani as great and he has broken down cultural barriers so you like him. That is to say, you are more influenced by sociological factors than cinematic factors. Appo, the conclusion from that evidence can only be that "Mani is a greater celebrity than Mahen", a point anyone will be willing to concede.

OTOH, there have been people here who have clearly stated what cinematic reasons they would advance to suggest that Mani is the creative equal, if not, better of Mahendran. Obviously, they will be taken more seriously if the discussion is on good cinema.


As an aside, you will have to reflect more honestly - you did make personal remarks against me(Calling me a ramba fan just for making a jocular remark on Manisha...aargh.. it is insulting, man: -) ), which, since I dont descend into canals even if opponents do, I didnt take seriously. If you were self-critical enough(considering your self-claimed culture), you would address the issue of descending to personal remarks just because you disagree with someone.



I think this thread has been flogged to death(with one of the chief culprits being myself). Admin should really consider closing this.

Raj,
I had clearly stated that Mahen camp and Maddy won't agree bcos we use totally different scales to measure a guys' worthiness...Maddy will agree Mahen is great ONLY when ARR composes for him (which is as unlikely as ARR scoring for adoor :-) )....or some mumbaite says he's watched a tamil movie called uthiripookaL, and he's 20 yrs old :-)

[MADDY]

maddy,
Thalaila pistol vecha kooda Mani-kku support pannuven-nu sollara ungaloda loyalty pullarikka vekkudhu. But, ore oruthar (80's person) vandhu "I prefer Mahen to Mani"-nu sonna, you will change your opinion-nu solli irukkengalae? Adhu dhaan udhaikkudhu? Pistol-ukku bayappadadha singam, yaaro orutharoda verum vaarthaikkaga unga opinion-ai mathikalama?

i'll always support mani, there's no change in that but i'll change my opinion on mahendran if someone from my age-group supports him...that's wat i meant.....



As an aside, you will have to reflect more honestly - you did make personal remarks against me(Calling me a ramba fan just for making a jocular remark on Manisha...aargh.. it is insulting, man: -) ),

mind u sir, i never called u a rambha fan, wat i meant was that ppl. used to rambha,kanaka will feel manisha is a gorilla......okkk so u calling manisha a gorilla is a very jocular statement but when i reply to it then it bcomes insulting isn't it??? FYI i'm a big Manisha fan.......

shankar, u r very cleverly trying to project me as a dumb/prejudiced/northindian/Rahman fan.....gr8 job actually......but ppl. here dunt know that u criticise evrything related to ARR....remember u criticised SJS,MR,ketan mehta and ARR himself many times......basically u r a IR-fan, i'm a ARR-fan.....u r not above fanatism & prejudicism either......

[Shankar]

>>>>>>>
u r very cleverly trying to project me as a dumb/prejudiced/northindian/Rahman fan.....gr8 job actually.....
<<<<<<<

I never called you dumb...I don't argue with imbeciles...in fact I have completely ignored stupid postings from many of the DFers here.
But the others, a BIG YES !! You are prejudiced, (of course) an ARR fan, and you have a north-indians-know-better faith/belief/attitude...

I don't criticize everything that arr does - OTOH, you support everyone who works with arr even third-rate directors like sjs, and hyped up bunch of ppl like Ketan & MR. You called a guy whose movies you never seemed to have watched as a 4 film wonder....Like someone correctly asked, which 4 movies were they ???

I have NEVER generalized like you always do....Who in this DF comes out with "we arr fans...." "you Raja fans..." kind of sweeping stmts ?

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
but i'll change my opinion on mahendran if someone from my age-group supports him
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

What's ur age-group ? I am in my 20s (no joke) and I love mahendran as a director...NOW, will that change your opinion ?? don't make stmts like these and get whipped by people.

[Jacky]

I'm yet to see an analysis of at least one or two (if not all) of Mahendrans works and why it is better than Mani's!

[rajdes]

Jacky,
lets rephrase your requirement. Why not you explain why "KM, Anjali etc are better than Nandu, Metti etc".

See what I mean? Now, now, dont start keying in your actual reasons why you think KM, Anjali etc are better. You know very well that the parameters you use are merely going to be different from what the fans of Nandu, metti have. And for all the effort you put, you will never be able to convince the already-convinced. Similarly, if I type down my reasons on the other side, you will refute them mostly. Take it easy, thats not wrong - you have your opinion and I have mine. My reasons for appreciating a movie are not exactly the same as yours - and it is neither superior nor inferior.
BTW, you have made a pretty decent case for Mani and I appreciate the thought and analysis behind your preference - this is different from liking a movie or director because of external factors like Coke, Pepsi, Grammy, Oscar etc. Now, anyone (maddy, this is not a personal statement - I am being generic) believing that someone is great because some one else says so - well what can I say ? I will merely drop it by saying that they have the right to be that way :-)


Maddy, and making a jocular remark on Manisha is not the same as making a personal remark on YOU.You dont have to retaliate to a slur on your favourite by reverse-slurring me. BTW, apologies if you got hurt by my statement on Manisha. I withdraw it considering your sensitivity.

[Shankar]

Jacky,
What kind of analysis do you expect ? If I say mani's characters lack reality, say keerthana in KM, you will put your foot down and say keerthana's character is very realistic !
And as is the case with maddy, we both use different scales, and we have to agree to disagree, and move on.

To me, Mahendran blended both the art form of movie making and the commercial form seamlessly...He made realistic movies, which had commercial elements such as good songs, a couple of fights etc, but nevertheless maintaining the sanctity of an Art movie.

Mani is a pucca commercial director, making a lot of compromises (in the form of item numbers, and lewd comedy track etc). Calling him a great is simply not acceptable to me.

[nkv]

Maddy,

Age is never a factor in appreciating true music and movies..

As a fact, i was not even born when 'Uthirippookkal' and 'Nenjathai Killathey' got released. I didnt have an oppurtunity to watch these movies in theaters, which would have had more effect. Only very recently, in some TV channels i saw these movies....

Again, much before my birth 'Annakkili' got released.. By the time i started understanding what music is, it was all ARR in the scenes. I didnt know the name 'ilayaraja' till 'Dalapathi'. But that didnt prevent me from going back and digging out his treaures. I had grown-up with ARR music, but it never made any impact on me..

good Music and movies will be enjoyed by all sorts of people in all times...

[Cinefan]

I have to agree with Shankar&rajdes here,we all use different scales to measure actors,musicians,sportsmen,leaders etc.The key is to understand why someone rates a person more than you do&then beg to disagree.

Of course during the course of arguments there will be statements made which will irritate us no end,in my case it was Maddy's "Kamal is artificial,SRK is a good actor"one :D but I just let it go.

There's nothing wrong in having opinions but when you start feeling your's is superior to others it becomes a problem&the quality of debate goes down.

DISCLAIMER:The above statements are generic&not aimed at any individual.

[Jacky]

Rajdes,
Quite a good post. My regret was none from the Mahendran camp justified their stand with an analysis but happily went on to make statements about Mani in all forms. Let them realize that nobody wins an argument just by continous mudslinging.

Shankar,
Even Mahendran has made commercial compromises but you conveniently ignored one of my earlier post which talks about it. Once again your comment about lack of depth in character is a statement based on preference with less substantiation. You must say how Mahendran molded Character X and how Mani failed with Character Y. But I know that'll be too much of asking from you!

[Shankar]

go and refer the postings about the characters of revathy and suhasini...and again, why don't you take the initiative and explain where Mahen's lacked ? Yep...i know that'll be too much asking from you!!

[Shankar]

power-cuts during a cyclone wasn't an argument worth discussing....I have experienced cyclones without powercuts :-)

Sridevi doesn't sing to a whole bunch of ppl...Its just sri and her maid...and she knows Rajni wud come and the police let her sing bcos they too expect rajni there...In any case this was better than your arvind swamy playing Gandhi.

[Shankar]

I have already mentioned about the kids in Mani movies. I observe you haven't substantiated any of your claims against mahen except of course that brilliant cyclone-power-cut logic.

[nilavupriyan]

maddy,
Thalaila pistol vecha kooda Mani-kku support pannuven-nu sollara ungaloda loyalty pullarikka vekkudhu. But, ore oruthar (80's person) vandhu "I prefer Mahen to Mani"-nu sonna, you will change your opinion-nu solli irukkengalae? Adhu dhaan udhaikkudhu? Pistol-ukku bayappadadha singam, yaaro orutharoda verum vaarthaikkaga unga opinion-ai mathikalama?

i'll always support mani, there's no change in that but i'll change my opinion on mahendran if someone from my age-group supports him...that's wat i meant.....



As an aside, you will have to reflect more honestly - you did make personal remarks against me(Calling me a ramba fan just for making a jocular remark on Manisha...aargh.. it is insulting, man: -) ),

mind u sir, i never called u a rambha fan, wat i meant was that ppl. used to rambha,kanaka will feel manisha is a gorilla......okkk so u calling manisha a gorilla is a very jocular statement but when i reply to it then it bcomes insulting isn't it??? FYI i'm a big Manisha fan.......

shankar, u r very cleverly trying to project me as a dumb/prejudiced/northindian/Rahman fan.....gr8 job actually......but ppl. here dunt know that u criticise evrything related to ARR....remember u criticised SJS,MR,ketan mehta and ARR himself many times......basically u r a IR-fan, i'm a ARR-fan.....u r not above fanatism & prejudicism either......
:? :roll: ..........ur judgement abt others judgement on u is :wink:

[Jacky]

[tscii:f4c176bedf]Shankar,
I have explained why Mahendran is not on par with Maniratnam in terms of innovative scripts. In terms of bringing something path breaking in scripts by citing mullum maralum and Johny. Don't know how you missed it only to complain now :)
I never vouched for ArvindSwamy's antics in Bombay, I have accepted Mani has flaws, and Mahendran is not perfect either. I just evaluate them on basis of positives only. Again I've said this before.
I can cite another example Kai kodukum Kai – about the wife getting raped, there was a movie called Sirai much before this which handled such a sensitive issue. It certainly wasn't a pathbreaking script.
Mahendran's biggest plus was lack of superfluous things in his movies. I know his contribution to movies but when you compare there are bigger perspectives than just citing Mahendran’s forte.
[/tscii:f4c176bedf]

[app_engine]

Saradha,
Thanks for adding `dEvanE' to my list of earlier numbers...I have listed a few of them from VK, MSV and even S-G.

However, my polambal was why IR suddenly stopped using such chorus in his later years...but resorted to a different (less sophisticated) kind...

[MADDY]

adding to jacky's points, i saw criticism of Mani's characters in KM and Bombay but how do u explain hare-caught-under-car's flashlights acting by shobha in Mullum malarum....if u watch the movie closely u'll fine there is wavelength mismatch betn herself and other characters....like she used to reply for the 1st question after 3rd question was fired......i dunno how many guys will agree with this.....and to be honest i havent seen NK and Mullum Malarum for a long time and i think many characters in mahen movies tend to go blank like this....maybe this is natural acting...but i could not fathom this logic....shankar dada, pls help here....

cinefan, sorry if u feel bad abt my praise for SRK and calling kamal a artificial actor, but that is one of my strongest opinion, how do u xplain the last scene of "moonram pirai" then.......it was heights of artificial action.....

[abbydoss1969]

It is no good trying to compare two directors with different strengths;

1.Mahendran was more realistic, had more psychological depth etc.

2.Mani, is good at lighter movies, fun scenes, also with beautiful visuals.
He took movies out of small dingy houses with closeup shots like what mahendran, or balachander would do.
He was influenced by European with wide panaromic shots, using nature etc to enhance his story telling,
He also took films out of tamilnadu to bombay, delhi etc.

My conclusion is while mahendran may make more realistic films, you can find other filmmakers like or better than him like: Padmarajan, Adoor, Puttana kanagal etc, if you want serious depths
But MR's USP is nobody in india has , his kind of filmmaking. That is why he became popular in the North. :wink:

[Jacky]

[tscii:67c2e1aec9]A thing equally laughable to kids behavior in Anjali is Rajni’s love interest in Mullum Malarum (some Jayalakshmi) acting an extrovert. Putting the watch in her blouse, tempting and teasing Rajni, and finally he succumbs to temptation to fetch his watch back. And where all this happens...in a open Kulam/Kuttai. Quite believable and realistic!
:lol: :lol:
[/tscii:67c2e1aec9]

[Cacaphonix]

andha maadhiri naattu pakkam nadakkuradhu uNdu.

[nilavupriyan]

andha maadhiri naattu pakkam nadakkuradhu uNdu.

epdi theriyum :wink:

[njv]

[tscii:ede9580515]Putting the watch in her blouse, tempting and teasing Rajni, and finally he succumbs to temptation to fetch his watch back. And where all this happens...in a open Kulam/Kuttai. Quite believable and realistic!
:lol: :lol: [/tscii:ede9580515]
Jacky

you are unlucky fellow. if you havent done this, atleast watch the movie again. So many of us are lucky to do similar things (in dreams ofcourse!)

[Cacaphonix]

nilavupriyan

u folded me. no comments ;)

[nilavupriyan]

nilavupriyan

u folded me. no comments ;)

:wink:

[Jacky]

njv,
I hope the girl in your dreams was more pretty than fatafat.

[nilavupriyan]

njv,
I hope the girl in your dreams was more pretty than fatafat. yeah...more pretty than aish even....

[Shankar]

adding to jacky's points, i saw criticism of Mani's characters in KM and Bombay but how do u explain hare-caught-under-car's flashlights acting by shobha in Mullum malarum....if u watch the movie closely u'll fine there is wavelength mismatch betn herself and other characters....like she used to reply for the 1st question after 3rd question was fired......i dunno how many guys will agree with this.....and to be honest i havent seen NK and Mullum Malarum for a long time and i think many characters in mahen movies tend to go blank like this....maybe this is natural acting...but i could not fathom this logic....shankar dada, pls help here....

cinefan, sorry if u feel bad abt my praise for SRK and calling kamal a artificial actor, but that is one of my strongest opinion, how do u xplain the last scene of "moonram pirai" then.......it was heights of artificial action.....
maddy,
I don't quite understand this ? Can you pls point out some scene in those movies where there's a "wavelength" mismatch (rather miss-and-match-later :-) )...

[thumburu]

"He also took films out of tamilnadu to bombay, delhi etc." - true , but at the cost of nativity. Manisha looked and acted like anything but a MelapaLaiyam Muslim woman . Fatafat Jayalakshmi would look less appealing to the assembly line , dumb , panIndian , faceless, soul less models that we have as heroines today. Jacky, for ur info "sirai" came after "Kai kodukkum kai"

[Shankar]

>>>>>>>>>
how do u xplain the last scene of "moonram pirai" then.......it was heights of artificial action.....
<<<<<<<<<<

Correct....kkkkkiran was perfectly natural...I give up !!

[nilavupriyan]

adding to jacky's points, i saw criticism of Mani's characters in KM and Bombay but how do u explain hare-caught-under-car's flashlights acting by shobha in Mullum malarum....if u watch the movie closely u'll fine there is wavelength mismatch betn herself and other characters....like she used to reply for the 1st question after 3rd question was fired......i dunno how many guys will agree with this.....and to be honest i havent seen NK and Mullum Malarum for a long time and i think many characters in mahen movies tend to go blank like this....maybe this is natural acting...but i could not fathom this logic....shankar dada, pls help here....

cinefan, sorry if u feel bad abt my praise for SRK and calling kamal a artificial actor, but that is one of my strongest opinion, how do u xplain the last scene of "moonram pirai" then.......it was heights of artificial action.....
the tears of the thousands of viewers who watched that scene is the proof for his natural acting...and a national award to prove it too...what else do u expect?....he won both audience reaction and national award...really a marvelous performance....

[Jacky]

Thumburu, Sirai was written as a novel by Anuradha ramanan in late 70's. Kai kodukum kai was in mid 80's.

[thumburu]

Jacky I have read that novel which won a prize too. But the film came only after "KKK"

[Cinefan]

Maddy,
You found Kamal's acting in the climax of 'Moondram Pirai'artificial :o.Following Shankar "I too give up" :D

thumburu,
Did 'Sirai'have Lakshmi&Rajesh in the lead roles?

If Yes,then it was def a much much much better film than 'Kai Kodukkum Kai'.

As someone posted, there are far better& more consistent 'realistic/art'directors in India compared to Mahendran like Girish Karnad,Girish Kasaravalli&a lot of them in Malayalam but there are very few like Mani who are technically strong,whose screenplay doesn't assault audience sensibilities(to a great extent),who exhibit class at the same time not alienating the 'mass'audience.

He is not perfect,has made bad films but to dismiss him as a "hyped by the media" crappy director is unfair.

[thumburu]

Cinefan , did I ever say "Kai Kodukkum Kai" was better than Sirai? I have not watched the film "Sirai", only read the novel. Read my earlier posts carefully. I actually said I dislike "Kai kodukkum Kai"

[Cinefan]

Cinefan , did I ever say "Kai Kodukkum Kai" was better than Sirai? I have not watched the film "Sirai", only read the novel. Read my earlier posts carefully. I actually said I dislike "Kai kodukkum Kai"

Hey,you got me wrong.I was not saying that you liked KKK,I was just confirming if 'Sirai'had Lakshmi,Rajesh&theatre personality Prasanna(???).

If yes,my opinion is Sirai is a far better film than KKK

[MADDY]

maddy,
I don't quite understand this ? Can you pls point out some scene in those movies where there's a "wavelength" mismatch (rather miss-and-match-later :-) )...

shobha in every dialogue in MM takes a long time to respond, it seems like "action" was told to her with a 3-seconds delay or something like that.....interesting fact is suhasini in NK, vijayan's wife(i dunno her name) in uthiri pookal also follow the same pattern.....they act like tubelights........it was very funny to see ppl. acting like that.....

cinefan,shankar,nilavu---dont u guys think kamal action was very loud in that scene???? compare it with mohan lal's acting or om puri 's acting....u'll see the difference.....

[nilavupriyan]

maddy,
I don't quite understand this ? Can you pls point out some scene in those movies where there's a "wavelength" mismatch (rather miss-and-match-later :-) )...

shobha in every dialogue in MM takes a long time to respond, it seems like "action" was told to her with a 3-seconds delay or something like that.....interesting fact is suhasini in NK, vijayan's wife(i dunno her name) in uthiri pookal also follow the same pattern.....they act like tubelights........it was very funny to see ppl. acting like that.....

cinefan,shankar,nilavu---dont u guys think kamal action was very loud in that scene???? compare it with mohan lal's acting or om puri 's acting....u'll see the difference.....

tell me a similar situation in which the above mentioned actors have acted....the film and the situation......

[app_engine]

"dont u guys think kamal action was very loud in that scene"

I'm trying to pass a stereotyping statement here - TAMILIANS ARE IN GENERAL A MUCH LOUDER PEOPLE THAN MALAYALEES IN THEIR EVERYDAY LIVES. And more in showing off emotions outwardly (even though the suicide rates are much higher in Kerala than TN).

That Kamal is at times louder than Lal is very appropriate as he is acting in Thamizh movies:-))

And BTW, the climax of moondRAm piRai is one of the best ever scenes in TF! Yes, unusual situations in life will bring about unusual emotions & actions. If we start terming them `unrealistic', then directors can show only eating food, drinking water and going to toilet on the movie screen...very realistically:-)

[nilavupriyan]

"dont u guys think kamal action was very loud in that scene"

I'm trying to pass a stereotyping statement here - TAMILIANS ARE IN GENERAL A MUCH LOUDER PEOPLE THAN MALAYALEES IN THEIR EVERYDAY LIVES. And more in showing off emotions outwardly (even though the suicide rates are much higher in Kerala than TN).

That Kamal is at times louder than Lal is very appropriate as he is acting in Thamizh movies:-))

And BTW, the climax of moondRAm piRai is one of the best ever scenes in TF! Yes, unusual situations in life will bring about unusual emotions & actions. If we start terming them `unrealistic', then directors can show only eating food, drinking water and going to toilet on the movie screen...very realistically:-)

exactly.....we cant say kamal acted overacted in virumaandi even...becoz nearly all villagers in tamilnadu are over emotional.Someone have mentioned that kamal's acting in a scene where his grand mother dies is unnatural...but its 100% natural...i have seen many people reacting the same way...

it fits for other films also...kamal responds tamil people not malayalees...

[app_engine]

A colleague (of greek origin) gave me the DVD `my big fat greek wedding', a hilarious movie. I highly recommend viewing this excellent movie for those who think people from all cultures should act the SAME way (even under exactly SAME situations)...

[Nerd]

Excuse me, please :)

//And BTW, the climax of moondRAm piRai is one of the best ever scenes in TF//

Give me a break! True that was an awesome movie.. nice potrayal of characters.. poetic movie.. but the last scene.. what kind of a dunce will not go straight to sridevi, explain what all happened and then explain all his gimmicks to her.. probably sridevi might remember all those things if he had explained to her in a calm subtle way rather than doing stunts on the railway platform. IMHO, the climax sucked big time for such a beautiful movie!

btw, KH did an awesome job of converting what BM had in his mind in that scene and true that deserved a national award 8)

btw, what is this thread doing in IR forum? Admin please move this to TFilms section where it would get greater appreciation and response :)

[app_engine]

"if he had explained to her in a calm subtle way"

kasi_sce,
I think the director's intention is to portray some kind of mental transformation of the character...which is medically very much possible (I've personally seen more insane behaviour from otherwise extremely intelligent, decent persons).

Yes, most of us viewers wished `if only he conveyed properly' `probably he later will go to their house' etc. talking about the climax all the way from theatre back to our hostel...namma ishtappadaRa mAdhiriyE mudiththAl what is the difference between BM & us?:-))

[app_engine]

And how many last scenes do you remember and talk about after years? MP would have been long forgotten as another good film with nice Kamal-Sridevi scenes if not for the kEthi railway station ending. So poetic! The repeat of `kAdhal koNdEn, kanavinai vaLarththEn' added some weight too...

My point was mundane things that happen everyday may be realisitc on screen but not poetic...it's such extraordinary (yet possible) scenes that make movie viewing enjoyable!

[Nerd]

//The repeat of `kAdhal koNdEn, kanavinai vaLarththEn' added some weight too//

Bull'e eye 8)

But my mom was like, "I feel like slapping KH right there" :lol: Anyways I liked your explanation of that scene!

[app_engine]

But my mom was like, "I feel like slapping KH right there"

That is the success of the director...why should one feel so unless she is so involved in the welfare of that character....BM succeeded in making some feel sorry for him, others mad at him...means they are forced to involve themselves in the LIFE of that particular character...real impact! (As long as it does not affect us mentally or socially, I'm OK with shocking scenes)

[S.Balaji]

[tscii:be8e55955a]App…

The last scene of Moonram pirai ofcouse was cinematic…. Kamal could have easily spoken to Sridevi and got her convinced that it was he who took care of her when she was retarded…. Yes now, we are in a position to debate and criticize that scene but those days, it was an extraordinary scene….
Dont you feel that with the train leaving Kamal, its not end of the road for his love ... He could have easily met Sridevi later and convinced her...
[/tscii:be8e55955a]

[Shankar]

maddy,
I don't quite understand this ? Can you pls point out some scene in those movies where there's a "wavelength" mismatch (rather miss-and-match-later :-) )...

shobha in every dialogue in MM takes a long time to respond, it seems like "action" was told to her with a 3-seconds delay or something like that.....interesting fact is suhasini in NK, vijayan's wife(i dunno her name) in uthiri pookal also follow the same pattern.....they act like tubelights........it was very funny to see ppl. acting like that.....

cinefan,shankar,nilavu---dont u guys think kamal action was very loud in that scene???? compare it with mohan lal's acting or om puri 's acting....u'll see the difference.....

There are many movies where om puri has delivered some bombastic dialogues, and done some crazy action scenes bcos those movies required them....there are many movies where kamal has portrayed characters quite subtly.... this one required such an outburst.

Coming to mohanlal....IMO, He's is the only actor in the country who can be compared to kamal. ML has also done movies like nAtturajavu, narasimham etc where he plays larger-than-life roles.....These guys can portray a really subtle character and very bombastic ones at ease. That's their greatness..I don't see that with Naseer/ Om puri (have seen naseer playing a villain...he didn't fit the part)....You have to judge kamal's performance taking the BG of the movie, and not one scene from a movie. The climax however unrealistic it is, fit the movie and made it a memorable one.

PS: You have quoted some guys worth comparing with kamal at least now....Till now it was more like Australia vs Bangladesh cricket match....Now there's some scope for discussion.

[nilavupriyan]

[tscii:c6e31c89d0]App…

The last scene of Moonram pirai ofcouse was cinematic…. Kamal could have easily spoken to Sridevi and got her convinced that it was he who took care of her when she was retarded…. Yes now, we are in a position to debate and criticize that scene but those days, it was an extraordinary scene….
Dont you feel that with the train leaving Kamal, its not end of the road for his love ... He could have easily met Sridevi later and convinced her...
[/tscii:c6e31c89d0]


they could have made kamal talk to sridevi.......and convincing her.But will that climax make any impact on us.imho...the situation is unnatural.But kamal's acting and ir'r rerecording made it natural..

the same thing fits for "sethu" also.Vikram could have easily talked with the doctor(the person who treated) there and come out from that situation.There is no need for an escape.....but to make it interesting the scene was made that way.....after all they need public's reaction.

[S.Balaji]

Nilavupriyan,

Fine... but in Engirundho Vandhaal ( Shivaji and JJ ) , the situation was opposite... Shivaji getting normal from lunacy... It was very well portrayed without any melodrama and it was accepted by the audience..

[saradhaa_sn]

[tscii:c356130abc]App…

The last scene of Moonram pirai ofcouse was cinematic…. Kamal could have easily spoken to Sridevi and got her convinced that it was he who took care of her when she was retarded…. Yes now, we are in a position to debate and criticize that scene but those days, it was an extraordinary scene….
Dont you feel that with the train leaving Kamal, its not end of the road for his love ... He could have easily met Sridevi later and convinced her...
[/tscii:c356130abc]

Dear Balaji,

You have mentioned exactly what I want to say. The world did not finished on that day. If Kamal was not able to expalin what have done during Sreedevi's "Dark Period", because of the shouting of the 'thondars' who have gathered there to sent-off their political leader, Kamal can just get in another carrigae of that train and can explain the fact in next station or in the destination.

But the last scene was created to show the 'medhaavithanam' of Balu Mahendra only, and not to fulfill the deisre of the audience. Many can ask, then how the movie was success. The movie succeeded not because of the climax, but for the innocent act of Sreedevi throughoutt the film. Until Kamal got national award, his roll was not that much admired by audience, but only Sreedevi. MOST OF THE FANS EXPECTED NATIONAL AWARD FOR SREE DEVI ONLY. It was a real fact.

As you mentioned, in Engirundho Vandhaal, Shivaji also did not identify Jayalalitha after he got cured. But it was explained by Muthuraman, who is jaya and what happened when he was affected mentally. Shivaji understood and accept Jaya, and audience also leave the theatre will full hearted.

But I am sure when the audience leaving the theatre after watching 'Moonram Pirai' with a "Disappointed" heart, mumering themselves "enna ippadi mudichittaaru".......

Is it a thrilling end..?.

Just imagine "Kaathal Kottai" climax. If Kamali (Devayani) did not see the swetter and leave in the train, and Soorya (Ajith) return back with blank heart, how will be that end. Is there any meaning for it...?

THANK GOD, BALU MAHENDRA DID NOT DIRECTED 'KAATHAL KOTTAI'....

[Cinefan]

saradha,
I think you take gr8 pleasure in finding faults.All of us can do that -in relatives,collegues,bosses,actors,musicians,direct ors,sportsman,politicians etc etc etc.

The key is how much their actions/reactions/words had an impact(positive/negative)on us.

Moondram Pirai is/will remain a 'memorable'film&Kamal deserved that National award(for underplaying his character throughtout&exploding in the climax) every bit.Sreedevi was great too but to say Kamal was undeserving is totally unfair.

Balu Mahendra is a 'medhavi'whether you like it or not.

The fact is a good two decades later,this film is being discussed in a forum&not 'Kadhal Kottai'(which released just 8 years back).

And,BM is still highly regarded,not Agathian(that's his name right?)

[Jacky]

[tscii:2be726a72d]BM might have wanted the audience to leave with a heavy heart! I'm not a big fan of BM but MP was one of his best efforts along with Veedu. If we dissect reasonably good directors then critically acclaimed Sivaji Movie Thanga Pathakkam is no exception. He knows his son is a criminal, still there's a family celebration – all the "nenja nakkara" Nalla thoru kudumbam sentiments and when it's over honest police officer in Sivaji wakes up and wants his son to be arrested.
[/tscii:2be726a72d]

[Shankar]

>>>>>>>>>>
But I am sure when the audience leaving the theatre after watching 'Moonram Pirai' with a "Disappointed" heart, mumering themselves "enna ippadi mudichittaaru".......
<<<<<<<<<<

That might be true...many ppl said that bcos they wanted them to unite. That shows how the director had developed the characters...I am not saying BM did the best thing...There could be better ways to end the movie....But the fact remains that the movie is remembered even today, ONLY for that climax !! I still remember people screaming "ooh..." when Kamal bumps against the iron pillar and falls.

>>>>>>>>>>
Until Kamal got national award, his roll was not that much admired by audience, but only Sreedevi. MOST OF THE FANS EXPECTED NATIONAL AWARD FOR SREE DEVI ONLY. It was a real fact.
<<<<<<<<<<

Looks like you seemed to have conducted a survey about who was better...Sridevi did perform well...She must've also got an award...agreed...But claimingthe movie was successful ONLY bcos of sridevi and NOT bcos of the climax is nonsense!

Not for nothing did the jury choose Kamal (and unfortunately chose not to give it to Sri)


>>>>>>>>
Is it a thrilling end..?.
<<<<<<<<<

Balu mahendra didn't attempt a psycho or a sigappu rojAkkaL to provide a "thrilling" end.

>>>>>>>>>>
But the last scene was created to show the 'medhaavithanam' of Balu Mahendra only, and not to fulfill the deisre of the audience.
<<<<<<<<<<

Balumahendra is a MEDHAVI.Period. He neither need anybody's certificate, nor does he care what you think about the movie.

What do you mean "not to fulfill the desire of the audience" ??? People might like a movie for different reasons....its ok if you say, you liked the movie for Sri...Many people like me loved the movie for Kamal's performance. Some for the music, and some for Silk's sleazy number...Don't try to generalize your view as the general public's view.


>>>>>>>
THANK GOD, BALU MAHENDRA DID NOT DIRECTED 'KAATHAL KOTTAI'....
<<<<<<<

You don't have to thank god for BM not directing KK....BM, atleast, NOT in THIS life would direct a movie like KK...He's way beyond those cliched "...and they lived happily ever after" movies.

[Cinefan]

[tscii:7a5eec06eb]BM might have wanted the audience to leave with a heavy heart! I'm not a big fan of BM but MP was one of his best efforts along with Veedu. If we dissect reasonably good directors then critically acclaimed Sivaji Movie Thanga Pathakkam is no exception. He knows his son is a criminal, still there's a family celebration – all the "nenja nakkara" Nalla thoru kudumbam sentiments and when it's over honest police officer in Sivaji wakes up and wants his son to be arrested.
[/tscii:7a5eec06eb]

Thanga Padakkam was critically acclaimed :o

The kannada version with Dr.Rajkumar was better but Ramesh Sippy's version 'Shakthi'with Dilip Kumar,Amitabh&Smita patil was outstanding.

I think you mentioned this movie so that saradha could relate to it.Otherwise where's the comparison between MP,Veedu on one hand&Thanga Padakkam on the other.

[Shankar]

[tscii:8943abe8ca]>>>>>>>>>
He knows his son is a criminal, still there's a family celebration – all the "nenja nakkara" Nalla thoru kudumbam sentiments and when it's over honest police officer in Sivaji wakes up and wants his son to be arrested.
<<<<<<<<<

COmpletely agree with you....One of the most melodramatic screenplays written for a tamil movie...Not sure who wrote the script - i heard it was an adaptation of a marathi/hindi play...Ironically, it was Mahendran who wrote the screenplay & dialogues for the movie ;-)[/tscii:8943abe8ca]

[Shankar]

Cinefan,
thanga padakkam play was a super-duper hit and was made a movie later. critically acclaimed ellAm summa ;-)

[S.Balaji]

Shankar and others...

I feel that 90% credit should go to Sridevi only in MP... as Kamal was playing a low profile in that movie...except for the final scene..... Honestly... I dont remember any special scene which Kamal did extrodinarily well in MP....

[saradhaa_sn]

Dear Cinefan,

Why you are thinking that, it is a 'finding falult'. Take it as a reasonable criticism.

What Mr.Balaji told is, Kamal can create an oppertunity to expalin everything to Sreedevi and complete the movie with a positive ending.

Manadhai thottu sollungal, neengaley mudhal thadavai paartha podhu, 'Kamal ivvlavu kashtapattum kadaisiyil veenaaga poche' endra oru verumai thondravillaiya?. Summa pechukku mazhuppa koodathu.

I am not under estimating the capacity, quality and presentation of Balu Mahendra or Kamal Haasan. These two and Sreedevi and IR were ferformed well. But what are all the things pointed by me are (especially, most of the audience disappointed in the climax) acceptable one.

[Cinefan]

Shankar and others...

I feel that 90% credit should go to Sridevi only in MP... as Kamal was playing a low profile in that movie...except for the final scene..... Honestly... I dont remember any special scene which Kamal did extrodinarily well in MP....

Sorry Sir,tell 'Moondram Pirai'&ppl talk about the climax(positive or negative).I am yet to come across one person who talks about Sri's performance(unfair to her really).The climax made the movie.

I still remember an interview with Balu where he spoke about it.Seems when the shooting was on,Sri used to pull Kamal's leg telling him that for once she's going to walk away with all the honours&Kamal kept saying,watch out for me in the climax.Even Balu didn't know what he had in mind.

If you don't remember Kamal any where in MP except the climax,it's not his fault.That's the way his character was structured-Low profile but max impact. :D

[Cinefan]

Manadhai thottu sollungal, neengaley mudhal thadavai paartha podhu, 'Kamal ivvlavu kashtapattum kadaisiyil veenaaga poche' endra oru verumai thondravillaiya?. Summa pechukku mazhuppa koodathu.



I was 8 when I first saw the movie&it disturbed me a lot.It was this film which made me a Kamal fan.

Yes,there's an underlaying tragedy running thro' the movie&that's the way BM wanted it.I don't have any qualms in that&certainly 'Nenjai thottu'solrein :) ,I didn't want an happy ending.

See,diff ppl have diff expectations,you didn't like the climax but I just loved it.Let's agree to disagree.

[S.Balaji]

Dear All ...

Sorry for a mini digression... Lets look at how Cheran presented Autograph.... He ( I mean the Hero ) had the option to marry Gopika when he meets her again...while giving his invitation card..... but when his friend Sneha convinces him ... he comes out with a pracitical end... Marrying the woman who was engaged to him....
If he had wanted... he could have created a melodrama of sorts here..... and could have made this movie very cinematic.... I mean getting married to Gopika....( as when he meets her... he will feel very sympathetic as she becomes a widow )

IS IT NOT SOMEWHAT TRUE THAT TODAY'S DIRECTORS LIKE CHERAN... ARE VERY PRACTICAL....

Probably Balu Mahendra was cinematic in MP.....I mean the climax.....eventhough it was appreciated those days.... Now it looks .........like not a desirable climax....

[nilavupriyan]

[tscii:ab34f240f8]App…

The last scene of Moonram pirai ofcouse was cinematic…. Kamal could have easily spoken to Sridevi and got her convinced that it was he who took care of her when she was retarded…. Yes now, we are in a position to debate and criticize that scene but those days, it was an extraordinary scene….
Dont you feel that with the train leaving Kamal, its not end of the road for his love ... He could have easily met Sridevi later and convinced her...
[/tscii:ab34f240f8]

Dear Balaji,

You have mentioned exactly what I want to say. The world did not finished on that day. If Kamal was not able to expalin what have done during Sreedevi's "Dark Period", because of the shouting of the 'thondars' who have gathered there to sent-off their political leader, Kamal can just get in another carrigae of that train and can explain the fact in next station or in the destination.

But the last scene was created to show the 'medhaavithanam' of Balu Mahendra only, and not to fulfill the deisre of the audience. Many can ask, then how the movie was success. The movie succeeded not because of the climax, but for the innocent act of Sreedevi throughoutt the film. Until Kamal got national award, his roll was not that much admired by audience, but only Sreedevi. MOST OF THE FANS EXPECTED NATIONAL AWARD FOR SREE DEVI ONLY. It was a real fact.

As you mentioned, in Engirundho Vandhaal, Shivaji also did not identify Jayalalitha after he got cured. But it was explained by Muthuraman, who is jaya and what happened when he was affected mentally. Shivaji understood and accept Jaya, and audience also leave the theatre will full hearted.

But I am sure when the audience leaving the theatre after watching 'Moonram Pirai' with a "Disappointed" heart, mumering themselves "enna ippadi mudichittaaru".......

Is it a thrilling end..?.

Just imagine "Kaathal Kottai" climax. If Kamali (Devayani) did not see the swetter and leave in the train, and Soorya (Ajith) return back with blank heart, how will be that end. Is there any meaning for it...?
THANK GOD, BALU MAHENDRA DID NOT DIRECTED 'KAATHAL KOTTAI'....

do u think only happy ending is a meaningful ending :roll:

[Cinefan]

Probably Balu Mahendra was cinematic in MP.....I mean the climax.....eventhough it was appreciated those days.... Now it looks .........like not a desirable climax....

Completely your point of view.I would like to find out if there are any hubbers in their late teens,early 20's who don't relate to the climax of MP.

The way the screenplay was written,it would have been stupid to show Kamal accepting that Sri is gone&getting married to someone else.This also would have taken up more screen time as another heroine who has 'One side love' :D for Kamal would have to be introduced.

Just like the practical attitude shown in Autograph made it a 'good'film,so also the tragic ending of MP has made it a classic.

I am stopping furthur discussions on this movie from my side.

[nilavupriyan]

Dear All ...

Sorry for a mini digression... Lets look at how Cheran presented Autograph.... He ( I mean the Hero ) had the option to marry Gopika when he meets her again...while giving his invitation card..... but when his friend Sneha convinces him ... he comes out with a pracitical end... Marrying the woman who was engaged to him....
If he had wanted... he could have created a melodrama of sorts here..... and could have made this movie very cinematic.... I mean getting married to Gopika....( as when he meets her... he will feel very sympathetic as she becomes a widow )

IS IT NOT SOMEWHAT TRUE THAT TODAY'S DIRECTORS LIKE CHERAN... ARE VERY PRACTICAL....

Probably Balu Mahendra was cinematic in MP.....I mean the climax.....eventhough it was appreciated those days.... Now it looks .........like not a desirable climax....

definitely not......i disagree.

how can u say marrying gopika will be a cinematic and impractical end....is it not an impossible thing to do......he is not yet married.Why cant he give life to his lover....it is not unnatural

[saradhaa_sn]

[tscii:3871c31835]BM might have wanted the audience to leave with a heavy heart! I'm not a big fan of BM but MP was one of his best efforts along with Veedu. If we dissect reasonably good directors then critically acclaimed Sivaji Movie Thanga Pathakkam is no exception. He knows his son is a criminal, still there's a family celebration – all the "nenja nakkara" Nalla thoru kudumbam sentiments and when it's over honest police officer in Sivaji wakes up and wants his son to be arrested.
[/tscii:3871c31835]

A fitting reply was given to you all by Tamil Nadu public, by celebrating 200th day of Thangapadhakkam throughout Tamil Nadu.

(Not in 300 seated 'Subham' theatre).

[S.Balaji]

Nilavupriyan...

No not all... Happy ending does not mean that its a meaningful ending... but MP end looks cinematic ... if you analyse today... Probably audience of those days.... wanted that type of end... and it worked for BM..

I doubt whether this climax would have been successful today....

For that matter... the reason Jyothika gives for accepting the handicapped Surya... was nice..... Thats today's generation for you.....

[nilavupriyan]

[tscii:677d7bf4fb]BM might have wanted the audience to leave with a heavy heart! I'm not a big fan of BM but MP was one of his best efforts along with Veedu. If we dissect reasonably good directors then critically acclaimed Sivaji Movie Thanga Pathakkam is no exception. He knows his son is a criminal, still there's a family celebration – all the "nenja nakkara" Nalla thoru kudumbam sentiments and when it's over honest police officer in Sivaji wakes up and wants his son to be arrested.
[/tscii:677d7bf4fb]

A fitting reply was given to you all by Tamil Nadu public, by celebrating 200th day of Thangapadhakkam throughout Tamil Nadu.

(Not in 300 seated 'Subham' theatre).

moonram pirai is also a hit.....

[Jacky]

[tscii:ea50ce9e77]Cinefan, There’s no connection between those movies but was said so that she could relate to it easily.

Shankar, I’ve seen all the Tamil channels raving about TP. And whenever there’s a program about Sivaji it is not complete without TP. If you have missed it it’s not my fault.

Saradha, how does it make a fitting reply? There were so many melodramatic crap movies that run well. I go only by I like and not what runs in a 1000 seater cinema hall.
[/tscii:ea50ce9e77]

[saradhaa_sn]

[
do u think only happy ending is a meaningful ending :roll:

If I think only happy ending is a meaningful ending, then I will not admire about Sivaji movies. (It is well known that, in most of the films (Karnan, Pasamalar, Vietnam veedu, Gowravam, RPRangadurai...somany) he will die).

Do you think 'Moondraam Pirai' is having a meaningful ending?.

[S.Balaji]

Dear All...

I summarise like this :

BM could have taken a leaf out of Engirundho vandhaal.... and could have ended with a practical solution... like that of Sridevi realising the truth through somebody and getting united with Kamal....
but BM is BM... he is known for extremes....
In this movie... he wanted a cinematic end.... and did it... and was accepted by audience of yesteryears......
Its also was to bring the best out of Kamal ... as in the entire movie... Kamal was playing a low key role.... and Sridevi was dominating....

BUT I REALLY DOUBT WHETHER THIS END WILL BE ACCEPTED TODAY......

[S.Balaji]

[
do u think only happy ending is a meaningful ending :roll:

If I think only happy ending is a meaningful ending, then I will not admire about Sivaji movies. (It is well known that, in most of the films (Karnan, Pasamalar, Vietnam veedu, Gowravam, RPRangadurai...somany) he will die).

Do you think 'Moondraam Pirai' is having a meaningful ending?.

Yes. its true.. I will vouch for Saradhajiii... Shivaji manushanai... piziya piziya aza viduvaar.... Orupodhum sandhoshamaaga vara maatom... theatarai vittu........
Idharkaagavay... Naangal frequently MGR padam paarpom....those days..... As there will be absolutely nothing to worry....Pure entertainment entertainment entertainment......
Great Songs( one or two will be dream songs )... Thai pasam... Sandai kaatcigal.... Loverodu... chella sandai.... konjam thathuvapaadalgal... Happy ending...Even if there is any sad scene.. .MGR will swiftly Thoonai kattipidithu kondu mugathai kaatamaataar !!!
This is all MGR movies is all about....

[app_engine]

Balaji sir, apdi pArthAl the Cheran film may look clownish just after a few years...with change in lifestyles and audience...even now, some of those Kerala scenes are quite far-fetched IMHO...The TN schooling scenes sure were very realistic (i.e. as of today), since most of the mid-aged people can relate to it:-) However, after a decade, nobody except people beyond 50's can relate to such situations and it might appear `unrealistic '...even dumb...with the education system in TN going through sweeping changes...(Even today, my son who is 12 found the movie very very boring)

There are very few films that can be viewed across span of many years with same level of admiration from various age groups....e.g. Ben Hur that I watched last weekend on video...though it's a 3hr plus movie (and we had to watch in parts on Sat & Sun), my son was pushing me to screen that.

Having said the above, I agree that moondRam piRai as a whole movie is NOT a timeless classic that can appeal to all age groups (I hate the silukku scenes for e.g...can't watch with family)...but the tragic ending was a stunner that left an indelible mark...

The movie of this thread, nAyakan, too would've been dumb if the ending was not tragic...but to the `satisfaction' of all viewers that their hero lived happily ever after...

[nilavupriyan]

[
do u think only happy ending is a meaningful ending :roll:

If I think only happy ending is a meaningful ending, then I will not admire about Sivaji movies. (It is well known that, in most of the films (Karnan, Pasamalar, Vietnam veedu, Gowravam, RPRangadurai...somany) he will die).

Do you think 'Moondraam Pirai' is having a meaningful ending?.

do u know the real situation of kamal and sridevi at ending.....

sridevi doesnt remember kamal at all.her parents doenst like kamal...(they would first decide to report to police and later decline it).kamal would be treated as a person who kidnapped a beautiful mentally retarded lady for some unmoral reasons.even if kamal explains their parents wont accept that kamal's love is pure and not for only sex.sridevi is in a situation that she will accept only her parents words as she doesnt know anything about kamal.whatever her parents say she will accept it....

do u think there is a chance for them to join.now u tell whether the ending is natural or unnatural.

[S.Balaji]

Balaji sir, apdi pArthAl the Cheran film may look clownish just after a few years...with change in lifestyles and audience...even now, some of those Kerala scenes are quite far-fetched IMHO...The TN schooling scenes sure were very realistic (i.e. as of today), since most of the mid-aged people can relate to it:-) However, after a decade, nobody except people beyond 50's can relate to such situations and it might appear `unrealistic '...even dumb...with the education system in TN going through sweep changes...(Even today, my son who is 12 found the movie very very boring)

There are very few films that can be viewed across span of many years with same level of admiration from various age groups....e.g. Ben Hur that I watched last weekend on video...though it's a 3hr plus movie (and we had to watch in parts on Sat & Sun), my son was pushing me to screen that.

Having said the above, I agree that moondRam piRai as a whole movie is NOT a timeless classic that can appeal to all age groups (I hate the silukku scenes for e.g...can't watch with family)...but the tragic ending was a stunner that left an indelible mark...

The movie of this thread, nAyakan, too would've been dumb if the ending was not tragic...but to the `satisfaction' of all viewers that their hero lived happily ever after...

App dear.......

Nayagan's end.... IMO.... MR would have chosen that end as THE MEANS ADOPTED BY VELU N. TO EARN HIS SOURCES WAS NOT AN ACCEPTABLE ONE EVENTHOUGH THE END USE OF MONEY WAS FOR NOBLE CAUSE....
Hence.... Velu N. had to die...... Its totally justified......

[S.Balaji]

[
do u know the real situation of kamal and sridevi at ending.....

sridevi doesnt remember kamal at all.her parents doenst like kamal...(they would first decide to report to police and later decline it).kamal would be treated as a person who kidnapped a beautiful mentally retarded lady for some unmoral reasons.even if kamal explains their parents wont accept that kamal's love is pure and not for only sex.sridevi is in a situation that she will accept only her parents words as she doesnt know anything about kamal.whatever her parents say she will accept it....

do u think there is a chance for them to join.now u tell whether the ending is natural or unnatural.

BM could have introduced a character ( probably YG Mahendra ) who had witnessed both and could have been an evidence to settle the issue..... ( this precisely was created by ACT in Engirundho Vandhaal through Muthuraman ) and it was accepted.....

[saradhaa_sn]

[ quote]

do u know the real situation of kamal and sridevi at ending.....

sridevi doesnt remember kamal at all.her parents doenst like kamal...(they would first decide to report to police and later decline it).kamal would be treated as a person who kidnapped a beautiful mentally retarded lady for some unmoral reasons.even if kamal explains their parents wont accept that kamal's love is pure and not for only sex.sridevi is in a situation that she will accept only her parents words as she doesnt know anything about kamal.whatever her parents say she will accept it....

do u think there is a chance for them to join.now u tell whether the ending is natural or unnatural.

Nilavupriyan,

I can understand what you are trying to tell us.

I am not such a lady, expecting all movies should end with the slogan "Maangalyam thandhu naanenaa"

(or) with the dilogue "nalla velai sariyaana timeku kondu vandhuteenga. konjam late aanaalum uyirodu paarka mudiyaathu"

(or) unneccesairily police coming in the climax (even great movie 'Sholay' has this defect). I hate all this nonsense endings.

I can understand Balu mahendra wanted to give a poetic ending for it, and ended like this. But padam mudindhadhum yetho oru verumai thondruvathai marukka mudiyavillai.

[Jacky]

Kamal should've taped all his conversations with Sridevi for proof but he wasn't a Psychologist or a smart lawyer just a common man!

[rajdes]

Did I hear someone say "Gilli is a crap movie"? - The people of TN gave you a fitting reply by running it for 100 days.
Did I hear someone say "Sakala Kala Vallavan is crap"? - Ah! THe magesans of TN gave the theerpu - 175 days.
Did you say ..well.. ahem.."New is a crap, vulgar, cheap movie'? - Ah! The discerning rakshasas,sorry, rasikas of TN gave you a resounding slap by running it for 100 days.
Did I hear..well...oh! Never mind, you would have got the message.

[alias]

Jacky, The ideal thing for Kamal to do was to bring the Samiyar who treated Sridevi along with him and instead of running, take a taxi or auto to Railway station and explain to Sribaby's parent that he is the one who has taken care. But for cinematic reason, BM ended the movie in a sad note and probably Kamal wanted to oust Sridevi with his acting who left Kamal far behind until that last scene. Sridevi was clear winner if you compare the whole movie but alas that excellent acting from Kamal in the last scene made all the difference and for the judges to give Kamal a national award.

[rajdes]

On Moondram pirai, it is drawing unnecessary flak, IMO
1. Consider this, suppose you had a teenaged daughter, and , god forbid, she goes missing, and investigation leads to a brothel where you realise that she was found mentally disturbed whe she arrived there and since then has been sold to a young man, what would you do? You would sit back and wait for the young man to nurse her back to health and deliver her to you safe and sound? You wouldnt go to the police? What sort of parent wouldnt? I mean, how can you say "Police came in unnecessarily in the climanx"? Have some heart!
2. Secondly, the movie establishes that cheenu realises Police is after him and he knows that he cannot prove that he kept Sridevi pure and safe, and didnt have any wrong intentions. He has reached a point, where, having worked for a cause, he has now achieved the cause(nursing Sri back to health) and precisely because he has achieved it, he has lost his valuable treasure(obviously, if your daughter went missing and ws found with a young man of unknown background, would you happilly marry her off to him?). He knows that he can ofcourse try and convince Sri and her mother and may be even the Police but obviously, there is only a very slim chance that she will be allowed to stay with him. That is real life.OTOH, he may be handed over to the police mercilessly. If I were Sridevi's parent, I wouldnt listen to Kamal's true story and how he nursed her etc - my reaction would be that of a practical man and I would ofcourse hand him over to Police and at the best, may not press charges against him just to suppress the incident. Any average parent would do that only.
Cheenu clearly realises that fate has overtaken him and his reaction si that of a confused/frustrated man who is suddenly overtaken by fate. Just the previous day he was hoping that Sri would come back to sanity and he could, with the help of others, convince her of his intentions. Suddenly, the tables have turned and he is a potential jail-bird.
4. In this situation , different people will react differently (heck, different people have suggested different climaxes even in this thread - that shows eeryone is reacting to that situation in the way they think is the way someone would react in this situation). It so happens that BM's cheenu reacted the way he did. BM, obviously, chose the ending that appealed to him the most - anyway whatever ending he chooses, that is going to be criticised by someone or the other. Why shouldnt he choose the one that he feels is the right one? It is ridiculous that someone criticises him for not choosing the endign that appeals to them.

[rajdes]

alias, what is an ideal way? Define ideal first. According to your ideal way, Kamal should do all the things you suggest.
According to someone else, ideal way is that he should get in the train and try to convince Sri and parents in next station.
According to a third person, ideal way is to walk away without making a fuss - a strong silent person would react that way. Forgetting the exact situation of MP, I have been in positions that have been like I work hard and pasionately towards a particular cause, it is achieved, and strangely, I dont get the benefits out of it and have to sacrifice something precisely because the situation has changed, and the very fact that my cause has been achieved forces me in the new situation to give up something. In such situations, I have simply walked away, not saying a thing to the concerned person(Before you interpret, no it is not a girl :-))
Cheenu simply goes nuts. As simple as that. He need not react the way you would. He reacts the way BM conceived his character. Dont tell me according to the movie's character, it was not established that this character would go nuts in a situation like the climax. People react unpredictably. Irrespective of someones generic behaviour and character, one can never say what someone will do in a particular situation.

See, there is no way BM can satisfy everyone by giving a)Happy ending b) Sad ending c) Shrug-of shoulders neutral neding, saying everyone got on with life after that.
Why shouldnt he listen to his instincts and shape the character the way he wants to? I mean, cant you see a film-maker's prerogative?

[Jacky]

[tscii:dc06562c91]Alias,
It is shown like he was running to the station after hearing that SD has gone with her parents. So I wonder how he could have taken the Samiyar with him.
And Kamal and Sridevi’s acting should not be compared in this movie, it was a movie about Sridevi and if you don't give her enough scope the film would lose direction. Kamal's character was meant to be underplayed and he just did that.
[/tscii:dc06562c91]

[rajdes]

Should add this .."Before you interpret, no it is not a girl ) "
read this as
"Before you interpret, no it is not a girl nor love or any related emotion is the cause I am talking about)


Endha puthila endha pambu vandhu enna visham kakkumo yaarukku theriyum? :-)

[rajdes]

Another of many misconceptions:
1. Sridevi acted well in the movie but Kamal got the award.
C'mon, Kamal's competitors were Naseerudding, Om etc. It so happens in that year no male actor gave a comparable performance (according to the awards committee)
Sri? In the absence of evidence to the contrary, we should believe that some other actress gave a even more mindblowing performance in some other movie(again according to the awards committee). Mind you, that was the time aroudnd which Smita and Shabana were giving one mind-blowing performance after another every year. One cant rule out that the actual best actress winner that year was worthy, unless you tell me that Radhika won it for Kizhakke Pogum rail or some similar flick :-)

[rajdes]

Leaving aside all that, one piece of handy info. BM discussed this movie in the DD Metro channel long back. He said his movie shaped from a personal fantasy - yes FANTASY-and he extended that saying it is a fantasy most young men nurture at some point or the other of their life and I agree with him - that of taking care of a beautiful, vulnerable young woman, fighting a whole lot of people and processes in the process. Considering that, one must give credence to his vision - that of bringing this fantasy alive in a fantastic screenplay that had to end the way it did - thats how all fantasies end, dont they? I mean, havent you had a dream where you dream that you were protecting a particular young woman against all comers, fighting off people, fighting off customs and fighting off devils and winning her favour in the end - only to wake up to the rude interruption of a bucket of water poured on your face?

If not, then BM didnt intend this movie for you!

[app_engine]

"Cheenu simply goes nuts. As simple as that. He need not react the way you would. He reacts the way BM conceived his character"...well said, rajdes...The replay of the song in the end kind of stresses this point...

'kAdhal koNdEn, kanavinai vaLarththEn
kaNmaNi unai nAn karuththinil ninaiththEn
unakkE uyirAnEn, eNNALum enai nee maRavAdhE
nee illAmal edhu nimmadhi, nee dhAn indRu en sannithi'

(may be they could have interchanged some verses of the stanzas and included `EnO dheivam sadhi seidhadhu, pEdhai pOla vidhi seidhadhu'...this time around, the pEdhai is Cheenu)

[alias]

Jacky, If he goes with Samiyar then they would know everything what Kamal has done for Sridevi. Worst case, if he misses the train, he could go to Sridevi home with Samiyar and explain the whole thing and whether Kamal gets Sridevi or not is another situation.

But since MP is cinema and not a reality, BM need to get some twist and he gave us that wonderful climax. But in reality I think a normal or person shown as Kamal will react without loosing patience. Why didnt he go mad when Sridevi gets lost and Kamal search the whole town and finally finds her in his house. That time he searches and gets back to his house and why couldnt he do the same thing in the climax. The answer is CINEMA.

Rajdes, we are comparing Kamal and Sri in the same category, obviously he is competiting with Naseer and Om. But as far as award is concerned, if you tell me who needs to get award for MP, it is Sridevi and then Kamal (until the last scene). And people are wondering why Sribaby did not get inspite of our brillant performance and Kamal got it for his climax performance. Thats all

[rajdes]

alias, I dont want to argue or convince you so I will leave it to your logic. But as you agreed, if the competition is not between Sri and Kamal, then what is the point saying Sri deserved award more than Kamal. Then we should have a single best acting category instead of best actor and best actress.

IMO, when the NA is clearly defined as
a) Best actor among all actors in movies submitted for that year
b) Best actress among all in movies submitted for that year

I cant see why people keep harping on Actress A performed better than ACtor B in movie C but B got the award, but A didnt.
This is simply not logical - by definition of the award, this line of argument is flawed.

If there is a category of award saying "Best performance in the movie Moondram Pirai", then maybe Sri could have got it. What is the point in keeping on harping about a award and a parameter that doesnt exist? :-)

[rajdes]

And alias, I dont think you intended it as a compliment, but you hit the nail when you said
"MP is not reality, it is cinema".
That was pretty close. As I said, Balu himself mentioned in an interview that MP was an indulgence from him - a screenplay woven around a fantasy (which I explained before) -
- A fantasy that could be explained in 4 lines as the dream you have of protecting a vulnerable young girl against all comers facing all odds - but a dream that always gets broken by the facets of reality. You simply wake up and realise you cant communicate to the characters you saw in dream , try desperately as you might. That moment when you wake up and realise you have just had a dream which you wish had never ended is the climax. The rest of the movie has been set-up around this premise. I am not a discerning movie goer so it is not that I got all this by watching the movie once. It is after that interview, when I saw MP again, I could now read between the lines and relate a lot of sequences to a dream and I could make full sense of the climax. If after this exposition, you can do the same while watching MP, then you would have enriched your experience of watching cinema. If not, bad luck, keep harping on the perceived flaws - the flaw is in the angle from which you are viewing not the movie.
There is such a thing called TREATMENT in cinematic parlance. I explained this before - MP is not the story of a Mentally affected person recovering due to the diligent efforts of a ideal young man. This was clearly not the director's vision and which he explained in one line by saying it's a fantasy. Why should it end exactly like "Engirundho Vandhaal" ended? I mean, why make another movie on the same subject if you are going to tell the same story :-)

To conclude this, I will preclude brickbats by saying that when I watched Gilli, I didnt have these parameters in mind, and I enjoyed it just as it should be - just let go and have a joy-ride. So, it is upto you as a viewer to read between the lines of any movie.

[saradhaa_sn]

alias, I dont want to argue or convince you so I will leave it to your logic. But as you agreed, if the competition is not between Sri and Kamal, then what is the point saying Sri deserved award more than Kamal. Then we should have a single best acting category instead of best actor and best actress.

IMO, when the NA is clearly defined as
a) Best actor among all actors in movies submitted for that year
b) Best actress among all in movies submitted for that year

I cant see why people keep harping on Actress A performed better than ACtor B in movie C but B got the award, but A didnt.
This is simply not logical - by definition of the award, this line of argument is flawed.

If there is a category of award saying "Best performance in the movie Moondram Pirai", then maybe Sri could have got it. What is the point in keeping on harping about a award and a parameter that doesnt exist? :-)

Please dont argue that, National Awards are given under perfect scale and selection. It has already lost its fame and dignity, when it was given to MGR, that too for Rikshawkaran, which roll can easily done by a Viapury or a Thaamu.

[thumburu]

Dig :
Regarding Moondraampirai ending, app_engine has succinctly put it as poetic and I agree with his observation. Poetic end cannot be explained by logical reasoning or common sense. It definitely has a shock value and that is where the creator succeeds. Some Malayalam films of earlier days used to have this kind of twisted end. I think the success of the otherwise intolerable 7GRC hinged solely on Sonia's unexpected suicide which gave a poetic hue to the entire film.
Kamal lost his sanity as he could not bear the loss of Sri 's innocence which was the very fulcrum of his existence. Even if Sri had married him after her cure, I doubt if Kamal would be a happier man as it was her child like state which Kamal was obsessed with. This is similar to a short , classic story which I read in Kalki about Yashodha-Krishna . In the end, Yashoda slips into senility when Krisha is all set to conquer Dwaraka after killing his uncle Kamsa. She is unable to come to terms with the loss of Krishna's innocence, his mischievous pranks during his childhood . This is a kind of psychological disorder which many mothers are known to undergo albeit to a varying degree

[rajdes]

thumburu, that adds another perspective to the reading of the movie. It is posts like this that add value to the forum, IMO. What are we here for , if not to share perspectives and offer a totally new approach to each other in appreciating art.
saaradha_sn:
I dont question your conclusion - NA's are hardly indicative of merit on ALL occasions. I do agree with your MGR example, though to say that Dhamu or Vyapuri could carry off a charismatic act is streching it too far. Can understand your logic atleast. But to say that just because awards were flawed once, all awards are meaningless is not fair. I discussed this before here. Sometimes, awards reach meritorious performances, sometimes they dont. The right thing to do is to not base evaluation of an artist on awards received - to go ahead and diss all award-winning performances is merely the other extreme of the spectrum - that someone won an award cannot automatically deem his performance as unworthy :-)

I dont know why we look at this discussions as A vs B contests. In the context, thumburu's post comes as a whiff of fresh air.

[Shankar]

saradhaa,
your dislike for kamal shouldn't interefere in judging a movie/performance....Inspite of all your (inane) arguments, MP is remembered for Kamal's riveting performance in the climax. period.

If you are happy watching those sridhar's tearjerkers (no offense to sridhar/panthulu or any of those dirs), go ahead and enjoy...but don't come here and argue that Kamal didn' deserve it, NA are just nonsense...i too agree that sometimes NAs are given to people like Anu malik and saif ali khan...But the good side is that ppl like Raja, arr, Kamal and Mohanlal have won it too and this happened to be one such case.

[saradhaa_sn]

saradhaa,
your dislike for kamal shouldn't interefere in judging a movie/performance....Inspite of all your (inane) arguments, MP is remembered for Kamal's riveting performance in the climax. period.

If you are happy watching those sridhar's tearjerkers (no offense to sridhar/panthulu or any of those dirs), go ahead and enjoy...but don't come here and argue that Kamal didn' deserve it, NA are just nonsense...i too agree that sometimes NAs are given to people like Anu malik and saif ali khan...But the good side is that ppl like Raja, arr, Kamal and Mohanlal have won it too and this happened to be one such case.

Hello Shanker,

I am pity on you how you find out that I am disliking Kamal, who is the real worthful actor in India (not only in Tamil Nadu). He is the one giving varieties of performance in each movie. You might not seen my postings in several threads arguing with Rajini fans for Kamal Hasan's tremendous performances.

Here we are discussing about the climax set by Malu Mahendra only and not about the talent of Kamal, which cannot be described by anyone, not only my self, but including you. Arguing for the climax of Moondraam Pirai only does not prove that you know fully about Kamal.

He will take utmost care to give each and every film in variety, whether it will succeed or not. One movie will not like another. We can tell somany examples like Apoorva Sagodharargal, Devar Magan, Guna, Mahanadhi (no one can imagine to perform like this), Kurudhipunal, Virumaandi and also in comedy oriented like Avvai Shanmugi, Kaadahala kaadhala, Thenaali (innovan pirakkanum), Pammal K.Sambandham, Pancha thandhiram.

In one of my previous statement I mentioned: "WE ARE EXPECTING, BELEIVING AND TRUSTING ONLY KAMAL TO WIN 'OSCAR' AWARD FOR TAMIL FILMS.

Onnu therinjikunga, Neenga suvarai (wall) pidithu nadakkum kaalam muthal naan Kamal padam paarthu varubaval. Kamal talent pathi ellaam analyse panna yaarukkum talent kidaiyaathu (ungalaiyum serthu).

I cant understand why you people dragging Sreedhar and others here, because I admired them in their threads. If I visited their threads, I can wrtite about them only. I cant analyse otheres there. But this thread is for Nayagan, Mullum Malarum, Kannathil muthamittaal, Mouna Raagam, Moondraam Pirai...etc. Here I never mentioned about any of the old directors like Sree or KB. You know well, that I will visit all threads and post my comment in all (including Kushboo's controvercy).

If I have started to discuss in favour of Kamal (as an advocate for his abnormal talents), I am sure nobody can stand before me. So please dont try to stamp me as a "Kamal Disliker". I am one of the Kamal's devoted fans.

When I am telling he is worthful for 'Oscar Award', then how can I think he is not deserve for National Award....????????.

[S.Balaji]

saradhaa,
your dislike for kamal shouldn't interefere in judging a movie/performance....Inspite of all your (inane) arguments, MP is remembered for Kamal's riveting performance in the climax. period.

If you are happy watching those sridhar's tearjerkers (no offense to sridhar/panthulu or any of those dirs), go ahead and enjoy...but don't come here and argue that Kamal didn' deserve it, NA are just nonsense...i too agree that sometimes NAs are given to people like Anu malik and saif ali khan...But the good side is that ppl like Raja, arr, Kamal and Mohanlal have won it too and this happened to be one such case.

Dear Shankar,

Your interpretation of this entire thread and Sharadha's earlier postings is incorrect... What we are all analysing about Moonram pirai is all about Sridevi who is better deserved to take the award compared to Kamal IN THIS MOVIE....
I dont think anyone of us had degraded or downgraded Kamal in anyway....
Its all about Sridevi doing extremely well in 90% of movie and Kamal took the climax to his credit...and when we analyse the climax scene today... it looks very .................cinematic.....
AS IF KAMAL COULD NOT REACH SRIDEVI... AS SARADHAJI RIGHTLY POINTED OUT EARLIER... HE COULD HAVE CLIMBED ANOTHER COMPARTMENT OR COULD HAVE FOUND ANOTHER DAY TO CONVINCE HER...
When this movie was released... the entire tamilnadu including myself were moved by the last scene... by the way Kamal acted...
but now it looks ridiculous......
THIS IS ALL WHAT WE HAVE BEEN ANALYSING AND ARGUING...

Hope its clear to you now...

Regards

[rajdes]

People, I hope we can start arguing and start discussing and sharing..am I asking for too much? :-)

[rajdes]

"AS IF KAMAL COULD NOT REACH SRIDEVI... AS SARADHAJI RIGHTLY POINTED OUT EARLIER... HE COULD HAVE CLIMBED ANOTHER COMPARTMENT OR COULD HAVE FOUND ANOTHER DAY TO CONVINCE HER... "
SB, oru padathai pala vidhama paarkalam. Ippadi thaan padam irukkanumnu neenga ninaicha, well, you cannot appreciate a lot of things. Moondram Pirai - idhai neenga verym story-aa padicheengana, then it can logically have several plausible endings. But the director has a point of view and he has clearly explained that also(FANTASY!) still you want to harp that your ending is the better ending? Padam eduthadhu neengala director BM-aa? Avar point of view-la padam edupparra? Unga POV-la ya?

As a concept(translating a fantasy into a screenplay without ever giving the impression that is nothing but a dream), MP has not even been understood by people here and yet people have 10 different ways of improving the movie. Kashtam-da saami!

Anyawy, I guess you will still come back and talk about "arguments". Argument is the last thing I want - I am happy that out of all this, there was atleast one post (thumburu)which offerred another perspective on the movie and enriched my appreciation of cinema. You continue with the digressions!
I mean, even megalomania has its limits!

[saradhaa_sn]

" Padam eduthadhu neengala director BM-aa? Avar point of view-la padam edupparra? Unga POV-la ya?


Very Good...!!!

Neenga solra indha point, neenga discuss pandra ellaa padathukkum porundhum.

Because, neenga discuss pandra endha oru padathukkum neenga producero allathu directaro alla. So, avanga enna point of viewla edukkiraargalo appadiye paarthuttu ponga.

Moondraam Pirai pondra nalla padangalukku mattumalla, onnukkum udhavaadha kuppai padangalukkum unga statement porundhum.

[Shankar]

my bad...If i had misunderstood about ur view on Kamal, I stand corrected. But I still stick to my opinion about MPs climax :-)

[saradhaa_sn]

Dear Shankar,

Congrats for your 'Triple Century'

[rajdes]

saaradha_sn:
Absolutely. Glad to see you got the point. Idhaiye dhaan naan naalu post munnadi sonnen. (refer my comment on Gilli).
Most films have a POV of the director(even a Simbu movie does - the point is "See how skilful my hero simbu is..." - it is another matter that those skills except finger-waving are debatable). It is upto you whether you make the effort to appreciate the director's POV of a particular film.

Now, I would plain ignore the kuppai movies' POV, because they dont enrich me.
Whereas, I would make every effort to unravel the puzzles and concept behind movies like MP - and for that I need to understand the Director's POV and I would definitely try to - because that is going to enrich my understanding of Cinema and give me a pleasurable pastime. The fact that BM has used the Cinema medium to express a personal fantasy in a cunningly straight format with the fantasy woven in a skilfully invisible manner gives me a certain joy at the discovery.

If you dont want to experience that, it is entirely your choice. But to go ahead and make strong statements that "This is how BM should have made the film" is plain stupid. Why would he make a movie that YOU conceptualise, in the process destroying his vision?
If you cant understand that, then, bad luck - I am not the loser nor BM. As a matter of fact, you are also not the loser because you have a different way of appreciating cinema and this whole concept need not enrich you as it did for me. I recognise that and am not going to make statements like "This is how it should be and this is how you should appreciate cinema."

[alias]

Rajdes, You did not understand my point. I am not saying that they are compeiting for same catagory. For a lady who made a brillant performance for the first time and shook the entire India with her performance (by the way Sadma was the stepping stone for Sribaby to Bollywood) did not get a national award. All I am saying if you compare Kamal and Sridevi in MP, I think Sridevi should get NA first for MP in female cat. and then Kamal in male cat.

But no, our male dominated society made a hero out of Kamal and that year there was a program in DD called Heroes of India and Kamal and Sunil Gavaskar featured in that to share their experience on why they were choosen as Heroes of that year. But poor Sridevi no awards.. but later a movie called Nagina which took away her far away from Tamil and the rest is history. She bet Kamal in Bollywood by failing in Kollywood.