Large-Hearted INDIAN-HERITAGE .....Exemplary for MANKIND

[Sudhaama]

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.. Large-Hearted INDIAN-HERITAGE Exemplary for MANKIND

Even the Non-Indian Foreigners like Dr. Anne-Besant, Dr. Max-muller, Dr. Percival and such others have praised highly of Indian-Heritage...

.. especially the Vedas, Upanishads Geetha and the like... alongside the Vedic- Culture of India

... being inherent and implied with Great Sense of High Moral-Values as the Exemplary Scriptures of Universal- spirit.. irrespective of Religious aspect...

.. rather as Commonly applicable to any Human... all over the World.. irrespective of the Social Vivi-sectional... or Sectarian.. or National boundaries..

No doubt the parallel Holy-Scriptures such as the Bible, Koran, Dhammapada and the like too...

... convey to Mankind several Gospels of Human- values .

But what is the Rudimentary Vedic-Sense and Heritage-content as worthy for a Common-Man...

.. the Unique-Message of Moral-Values... worthy towards MEANINGFUL LIFE.??

Let us discuss here in a Healthy, SECULAR and NON-RELIGIOUS Simple approach of Concern to any Individual member of Global- Humanity.

Hari-Ohm !!! Lokaah-Samasthaah Sukhino bhavanthu !!!

(Oh! God our Protector and the Conservator of PROSPERITY... Let all the People in the ENTIRE UNIVERSE... be Happy)

Ohm Santhi ! Santhi !! Santhi !!!

( Oh! God ... Let PEACE prevail within Me.. as well as in the places around me...

... Peace... in others and those places away from me... and...

... Peace for those elsewhere unknown to me being Strangers along with their places too)

[HindustaniLadka]

Nice post Sudhaama. Intelligent people all over the world have realized how great Vedic culture is and they have praised it. The Vedic civilization was the first advanced civilization on Earth and it directly influenced the Greeks and other great civilizations.

[NOV]

Please continue your discussions in HnC Section.

[F.S.Gandhi vandayar]

The Vedic civilization was the first advanced civilization on Earth and it directly influenced the Greeks and other great civilizations.

Can you elaborate and explain What is vedhic culture and how it influenced the Greeks ?

f.s.gandhi

[Idiappam]

Is preaching allowed in the HIstory Section?

[EdenWoods]

I am really surprised that after all that pontificating about keeping the section free of fanaticism and narrow sectarianism, the administrators allowed this thread.
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I clearly see that the author of this thread has excluded Jainism, Buddhism, Sikhism, Christianity (here for 2000 years) and islam (which has been in India right from the time of the Prophet), host of tribal religions etc from his notion of INDIAN HERITAGE..
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The contrived nod to 'concern for common-man of Humanity' etc..is artificial and only a fig leaf to hide a narrow vision. One can sense pent up abuse just behind the facade.
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It is clear that some individuals frustrated with the anti-abuse policy of the Hub now are trying to inject their poisonous views surreptiously, when no one is looking, with lot of fake sanctimoniuosness.
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I think the admins need to be more alert.
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[Sudhaama]

Dear Mr. / Ms. "EdenWoods"

// I clearly see that the author of this thread has excluded Jainism, Buddhism, Sikhism, Christianity (here for 2000 years) and islam (which has been in India right from the time of the Prophet), host of tribal religions etc from his notion of INDIAN HERITAGE.//

I am unable to understand, how you say that Jainism, Budhism and Sikhism which faiths too originated from this Great Indian-soil, are excluded from the Scope of this thread.

... Have I mentioned so... even indrectly in my INTRODUCTORY-NOTE?...

Equally other Great Faiths of Christianity, Islam and the like too ... well deserve to be highly revered...

... and their Divine- Morals to be taken up, for the benefit of Mankind...

.. even though... Islam forms part of Arabian-Heritage ...

... and Christianity forms part of Israel-Heritage....

.. since originated from those Holy-Soils.

In brief..the intention and scope of this Thread is not to denigrate other Faiths. .

. but to only bring out the Hidden greatness of Indian-Heritage... as RECOGNISED BY INDIAN CONSTITUITION as Secular- Spirit.

So I will be the FIRST MAN to raise my Vociferous -objection on any sickly trend ...

.. if it so emanates... against any Global-Faiths nor against any section of Mankind, past or the present. ...

being not only far from the True Spirit of SECULARISM....

... but also a violation on the Scope of this Healthy-Outlook Thread.

Fearing of such a Misconception...

...I have cautiously and repeatedly insisted on the Secularism of Indian Culture...

.. which implies the Large-Hearted Spirit of UNIVERSAL-LOVE of Humane-Outlook on Life... coupled with viewing the

... Greatness of all the Global-Faiths or Religions and Philosophy, as well as the International Multiple-Cultures....

... which is the INDIAN- OULOOK and HERITAGE .. as per our Consitituition...

Hence such a healthy BROAD-MINDED SPIRIT has been firmly asserted...

... through the Title of the Thread... "LARGE-HEARTED INDIAN-HERITAGE Common for Mankind"

... as also in the Introduction more elaborately to CLARIFY.

I am really SURPRISED TO NOTE Your Dubious Surprise on this HEALTHY- OUTLOOK.... of Human-Spirit !!! ???

// The contrived nod to 'concern for common-man of Humanity' etc..is artificial and only a fig leaf to hide a narrow vision. One can sense pent up abuse just behind the facade.//

Why I started talking about the Broad-Vedic-sense... initially?

(1) Because it is the so called Hinduisim, the Vedic-faith... which is facing the MAXIMUM POSSIBLE MISCONCEPTIONS ..

.. mutual .CONTRADICTIONS and DISPUTES, even amongst its followers .

... not only within India... but also out of India too... rather Internationally, when compared to any other Faiths.

(2) Vedic-Faith was the Prime-faith... which originated First of all prior to Budhism, Jainism and the like.

(3) Vedic-Faith is not One Religion... as many are looking at... but a Complex-form of almost all the popular Word-Religions...

.. conveying the same High Spirit and Great Senses ... towards EMANICIPATION OF MANKIND... through one of the Multiple- choices

... spreading ILL-WILL AGAINST NONE.... nor antagonising any other Religion or Faith.

With a Really LARGE- HEART ... as invited through the Thread-Title.. if anybody views this Topic... he will be happy to find the deep meanings and High- sense conveyed by the Great Indian- Heritage

// It is clear that some individuals frustrated with the anti-abuse policy of the Hub now are trying to inject their poisonous views surreptiously, when no one is looking, with lot of fake sanctimoniuosness //.

If the gesture of clarifying the True-sense of Indian Hereitage is WRONG... then I am the Culprit.

If bringing out the Hidden-truth of Great Human-Morals ...behind the
Indian-Culture... is an ABUSE ... then I am the Culprit.

If spreading the spirit of United Global- Human-Love ... is a POISON .. then I am the Culprit.

// I think the admins need to be more alert //

Yes... Yes.. . Yes... I join with you in RAISING MY CONGRUENT VOICE TOO ...

... against any such Mischief by anybody.. if surreptitiously pokes in....

... ANTAGONISING the Healthy Scope of this Rare and HIGHLY MEANINGFUL Topic ...

... intended for the benefit of United Human-Life... IRRESPECTIVE OF RELIGIOUS ASPECT.

[Idiappam]

Uncle Sudhamaa said:

(1) Because it is the so called Hinduisim, the Vedic-faith...

A fatal assumption! Kavadi bearing is not a Vedic-faith! Then which place has it in your 'so called Hinduism'.


(2) Vedic-Faith was the Prime-faith... which originated First of all prior to Budhism, Jainism and the like.
Because it was there before Jainism/Buddhism it become the 'PRIME' faith???


(3) Vedic-Faith is not One Religion... as many are looking at... but a Complex-form of almost all the Word-Religions...
That is just preaching . Uncle why don't you give us some quotes from the Vedas - and tell how 'the Vedic Faith is Complex-form of almost all the Word-Religions..."

I don't like blank bullets. They just make noise!

[EdenWoods]

Just reading the first para of SUDHAMA's post is enough for me to understand what is the agenda.
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According to me, Hinduism or Indian Civilization is not equal to Vedic Faith. Vedic Faith is a comparitively new, laterally injected, though significant, but the not the dominant, component of the great edifice called Indian religious experience. Christianity, Islam, Buddhism.. even Atheism are other components.
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Please don't carp on Vedic Faith being equal to Indian heritage. This is a vast country and people. Keep your narrow seactarian views to yourself.
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Incidentally, the idea of pithrubhumi/punyabhoomi debate is betraying itself in your long-winded obfuscations. Makes it clear what you are trying to say, even if you do not say it.. The pernicious idea makes it impossible for Japenese Buddhists to be Japenese, American Hindus to be Americans, European Christians to be Europeans etc.. think about it.
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Why don't you clearly state your narrow views instead of couching it in fake moderation, unconvincing lip-service to 'Harmony", 'Broad-minded spririt' etc.

[Badri]

A suggestion: Instead of this narrow focus on any one particular religion, why not discuss how the different cultures that have gotten integrated into India have enriched India and the Indian psyche?

After all, the title is Large-Hearted INDIAN-HERITAGE Common for MANKIND...and certainly, Indian heritage includes much more than just religion!

Any takers? :)

[Raghu]

Yes that's right! Let's discuss about vast RICH culture of the WAR MORONS American Revolution and Vi-Kings of England and their Rich POTATO Culture, of course That is Far MORE INTERESTING wouldn't you say SAY??

That will would broaden the Topic.

:clap: :clap: :banghead: :banghead:

[Idiappam]

No, Raghu! The Vedic Culture is very very very rich! We should discuss that here! Bring it to the world to enjoy!

Shall I start??

[EdenWoods]

The intended purpose of the introducer of this thread is now being served.
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The kindred Vedic souls with their narrow views have jumped into the fray...Why are they not like us normal people?
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War Morons/Nazis? .
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eh? Ha.. that seems to be an appropriate discription for those who peddle the narrow vision themselves, but slap the terms on others..
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I would rather prefer Idiappam (why the nick?) because what he says is at least not hate-filled.

[pradheep]

Dear Idiappam

If you literally take any scripture it will make no sense , only NON-SENSE.

Many years back I read a siddhar song (i cant recollect..if Iget the source..I will post). The siddhar song is about the prescription of a herbal medicine for diabetes. The song if literally taken would means that go to madurai azhagar malai and have sex three times a day, squeezing her middle in the morning more with to and fro actions....holding the fleshmore in the mouth...when it is is warm enough....(ooops.... censured...) .....with the lady with violet flowers on her head.

The intended meaning is to collect the violet flower bearing herb found in the azhagar hills and to use it three times a day by squeezing the different parts of the plant at different times of the day and boil it for specificied period of time and while warm hold it into the mouth before gulping.... as a medicine for diabetes.

Now if one does not have any idea about the intention of the siddhar song, then he or she will understand (interpret) it as a porno-literature and would declare the siddhar is a sex-swamiyar.

Without understanding the purpose, if one read the song, then the words like "squeezing" ,"middle" region, "boil", "heat" "sizzle" "to and fro" would give the person "ERRECTION" resulting in testical secretion instead of helping his pancreas to secrete insulin.

This is the sad state of people who read vedas too. Any way to help you think a little..I am quoating a few intended meaning of words used in vedas. If not any one can understand vedas as a recipe for "hot dogs" or "Hot-Horse".


go: Cow; each go stands for a particular type of Light or Knowledge.

ashva: Horse; stands for the vital energy which the devās can bestow.


adri: Hill; the force or beings of inconscience and ignorance.


āpah: Water; the divine energies flowing from the heights purifying all mankind.


nadi: River; the flowing current of energies.

[viggop]

Pradheep
I have seen this same style of writing in saint Arunagirinathar's works.it'll look as if the saint always talks of sex etc but they have deep philosophical meanings too.In those literature was supposed to be made up of different emotions and kama was also one among them. Hence you can see any ancient Hindu devotional works(Sanskrit/Tamil) having these things in it.
There is nothing to be ashamed of this literature.

[pradheep]

Dear Viggop
You are right whether it is sanskrit or dravidan literature symbolism is the art of expression and there is a joy in the discovery. I am not ashamed of sex (but porno) because the very sexual act is through which I have been born in this world. Sex is divine because it is the karma (act) of creation. During sex, if one is aware of the "Self", the very act becomes the stepping stone to the non-dualistic (advaita) state: the act, the action and the actor dissolves into one state of bliss.

I have experimented this fact that during sex, if I am too focussed on "my" body, "my" pleasure (duality), then the act is not complete neither to myself nor to my wife (pre-mature culmination).

But when I am aware of the fact that I am the witnssor, the witness and the witnessed, then the whole experience is under control (extendable to the time we desire) and the whole act is complete and both of us sink in bliss.

This is the essence of Kamasutra (Kama-shastra) that vyatsyanana gave us. This is why in Indian tradition SEX is divine. at the same time for religious reasons celibacy is to be practiced. Celebacy is asked to be observed when one is focussed only as being a mere body doing a physical act. When one is tuned with the "Self:" then there is no need for celibacy, infact sex becomes divine.

This is why all indian temples have the divine act of sex carved in the temple premises to remind us that it is a wonderful ,means to the "Self". This is also the foundation of Tantric Sex.

[Idiappam]

Sigh, Now two Senior Vedics Sir Viggops and Sir Pradeep has started a smear campaign on Siddhars and Arunagirinathar!

Yah, they have read 'some Siddhar Songs' and some 'Arunagirinathar Songs'. Sexy Sexy Sexy!

But, they have cleverly forgotten those Tamil songs, they read a long time ago. Forgive them!

:cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry:

[viggop]

Dear Idiappam Sir
You are mistaking the intention of my post.What I meant to say was that "kama" is an essential part of our literature.Even Thirukural has kamathaupal in it.I have read Abirami bhattar's "Abirami Andhadhi",Andal's "Nachiyar thirumozhi" etc.These works have "kama" in them but they are holy to me and they are sung in temples.I'm not ashamed of the "kama" content in them.

Kalidasar "Kumara Sambhava",valmiki's ramayana have lot of "kama" content in them.but,i'll not reject those books and will not reject my heritage.Lot of houses in N.india read "ramayana" daily.I have read adi sankara's soundarya lahari and other sanskrit slokas of his.they do describe various organs of Godesses but still they are considered as slokas.
what you consider as "sankritic filth/Tamil filth" is not considered as "filth" by me at all!!!

Those are the works written by our ancestor and nothing there to be ashamed of them.

[Idiappam]

Sir Viggop,

What did Abirami Bhattar and Andal mean when they used the word 'kama'?? What did Valluvar use it for?

Does it include 'seduction of the neighbours wife' as prescribed in the Kamasutra?? Or are there some 'deeeeep, deeeeeep' philosophies associated with 'seducing thy neighbours wife'?

How much deeper should we go for maximum contentment as far as Kamasutra is concerned?

[pradheep]

Dear Idiappam
Give me time I will get the siddhar songs. If you go to thanjavur and thirvanthapuram oali chuvadi collection, majority of them are decoded but they cant interpret the meaning of it.

I have highlighted how we can miss interpret the literature based on our prejudice. Since you do not want to accept them, you are calling the moderators.

I see no difference between sanskrit and tamil literaure. both talk of the same truth. if our minds are prejudiced then we can fight a war like others. But I am not interested in fighting. I am interested in debates (darga) to understand but I am not for vidanta-vada. Some are here only for vidanta-vada.

based on the example for the food eating habits I wrote how our personlaities differ and become the basis for satvic, rajasic and tamasic behaviour. Point what is wrong in these interpretations and I am ready to accept and correct myself. if you are also ready for such moves, then we can discuss these aspects.

Truth always burns and purifies and that is why as a symbol of fire we have saffron color in our tradition.

[viggop]

Also, siddhars and Arunagirinathar are people who have reached highest level-- they have direct experience of Gods(skandar anuboothi).
A mortal like me has a long way to go to reach a level to even make bad comments on saints like arunagirinathar and siddhars.
for me,arunagairinathar's works are very holy and will be sung in temples , even though some people might consider it as filth just because of their kama content.

[pradheep]

Dear idiappam

What do you thing is the essence of Andal and Abirami Bhattar. Then we can discuss what kama.

[Idiappam]

I don't know what and which Siddhars, Sir Pradheep and Sir Viggops are talking of.

But, I think you should give some verses here.

But Arunagirinathar did not talk well of illicit sex - you can see that in many of his Thirupugazhs. ''kariya kuzhal mathar thangal - adi suvadu....,' etc etc.

If you read his life story - you will understand why he condemns illicit sex. He was fooling around and regreted later.

There are no 'deeeeep' or hidden meanings in Thirupugazh. They go straight to the point!

[Idiappam]

Dear idiappam

What do you thing is the essence of Andal and Abirami Bhattar. Then we can discuss what kama.

Devotion, I guess, as far as I have read!

Now, comes a new word 'essence'! Reminds me of some vanila and apple pudding flavours! To the kitchen now!

[viggop]

Idiappam Sir
Abhirami Bhattar and Andal had so much devotion to their Gods.
Their "kama" is not the materialistic sex we see in movies.I think it is something beyond that.I do not know how to explain them to you.Perhaps you can explain that as you are well read! What i'm trying to say is that they are holy books to me.
Kamasutra is a book about love making.I have not read it.I do not know the philosophical meaning of Kamasutra.Perhaps well read person like Pradheep can explain philosophical meaning to you.

I respect your opinion to consider "kama" content of ancient Indian literature as "filth".you are entitled to opinion.But i do not consider these things as filth.

[Idiappam]

Also, siddhars and Arunagirinathar are people who have reached highest level-- they have direct experience of Gods(skandar anuboothi).

Having a direct experience of Gods - is NOT reaching the highest level, Sir Viggop!

Sometime, a layman with no knowledge, or no interest in God, attains the 'highest level' of spirituality!

YOu don't need to know God to reach the highest level.

[Idiappam]

I do not know the philosophical meaning of Kamasutra.Perhaps well read person like Pradheep can explain philosophical meaning to you.

Can he give and 'straight to the point' explanation?

[viggop]

Arunagirinathar's works are philosophical.I have read his life story and then he changed for better.But,the "kama" contect he wrote do have philosophical meaning.Or they can also be interpreted in philosophical way.I do remember reading this in Murugadas "Skanda Sashti kavacam" thread.

Also, jayadeva's ashtapathi is very very erotic,i think.But carnatic singers do sing it with full devotion.Bagavatham is full of Krishna "leelas".they might look erotic at the outset.but there are philosophical meanings to them.atleast,some scholars /religious people have given philosophical meanings.for e.g.
Krishna and gopis are explained with jivatma is yearning for paramamtma.

[viggop]

Idiappam Sir
How does a layman reach highest level without knowing "God"? I do not understand that post.
can you please explain? are there some people who have reached highest level without knowing God.I thought the highest level is "Moksham", rt? for that you atleast have to know that God exists?

[pradheep]

Can he give and 'straight to the point' explanation?

Dear Idiappam,
Sometimes when I point my specific house, among other houses from a cliff, I would say "That house on which a crow is sitting"....... And you are saying be staight to the point , which house it is.

Hope you like this example , instead of a food example, which stimulates appetite in you.

well if you can get what i say, i will also be to the point.



Sometime, a layman with no knowledge, or no interest in God, attains the 'highest level' of spirituality! YOu don't need to know God to reach the highest level.

Can you explain highest level, spirituality and God in your understanding, please idiappam sir (your very name make my mouth watery).

[Idiappam]

Since Sir Pradheep also told me a 'house from a cliff' story, I will tell a 'ore oru oorula, ore oru ...' story.

Sometime ago, in Singapore, one worker was injured - paralysed waste down. He came from a poor village in Bangladesh. Married with kids, and had borrowed an hefty some of money to come here. Many locals, poor and rich, felt sorry and contributed money.

There was an elderly Chinese woman who went to visit him at the hospital, with all the money she had, about fifty dollars. Then on she was there everyday, fed hid, wiped him etc etc for weeks till he was discharged. The story was reported in the local papers.

That is what I call 'highest level of spirituallity' - the woman's. God wasn't there! Thirumoolar called that 'Anbe Sivam'.
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[Sudhaama]

Dear Mr."Idiappam"

// Sometime ago, in Singapore, one worker.... with all the money she had, about fifty dollars. Then on she was there everyday, fed hid, wiped him etc etc for weeks till he was discharged.

That is what I call 'highest level of spirituallity' - the woman's. God wasn't there! Thirumoolar called that 'Anbe Sivam'//
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"Anbae-Sivam". / Anbae- Arham / Anbae-Inbam / Anbae-Irhaivan / Yaavarum-Kaelhir ..

... is one part of the Indian-Heritage... especially well-highlighted by Tamilian-Culture world-wide....

... which Hearty-spirit has been emphasised by the Great-Bible and Dhammapadha too.

But the attitude of Humane-Love which you have quoted above... depicts the GREATNESS OF MIND-HEALTH of the Person concerned.

... Broad-Mind is different from Spiritualism... the latter is relevant to Soul- approach and its Application.

When a person states... "By Heart and Soul ... I mean and act so."

The Word "Heart" here means his "Mind" and the "Soul" means his 'Spiritual- attiude" or Approach.

Spiritualism is developed by Soul-Culture with or without the help of Religion.

The whole world identifies and discerns Indian-Heritage...

... as more Spiritual - oriented... when compared to other Nations.

Spiritualism is... ARHA-UNHARVU... or AANMEEHAM... in Tamil.

Anbae -Inbam... is the initial stage of Humanism...

.. which leads to the next higher plane of... ARHA-INBAM.. the .highest degree called PAERINBAM ...

...an Inbam (Happiness) with the least admixture of Thunbam (Sorrow) ..

which is differentiated by the word.. SITRINBAM.

"ARHATHTHAAL VARUVADHAE INBAM "... says Thirukkuralh...

"ARHAM-SEYA-VIRUMBU"... says Avvaiyaar.

. .which means Spiritualistic attitude ... Vital for Mankind.... according to Indian- Heritage

... which GREAT INNER MIGHT has to be developed by Soul-Power (Irrespecive of Religion).

... to ensure the MEANINGFUL HAPPINESS in Life... with Family and the Society

[pradheep]

she was there everyday, fed hid, wiped him etc etc for weeks till he was discharged. That is what I call 'highest level of spirituallity' - the woman's. God wasn't there! Thirumoolar called that 'Anbe Sivam'.

Dear idiappam

Very good. This selfless service is a means of transcendence from the individual self (Jiva) to the higher "Self" (Brahman). Because when you transcend you lose the thought of my body, my money, my time, my personal hygiene. All that is lost there. There is then no difference between the chinese lady and the bangladesh. She bascially became him and she did as she would do to herJiva self to the higher self (Brahman). I dont know wht you mean by God, was not there. Anbe Shivam means that compassion transcends jiva to non-individual self is Shivam (god).

Since you think God as a person sitting in heaven you say god was not there. that is your problem of understanding (sorry to be rude...only to get you to the point).


There are different levels to transcend. As I discussed earlier, act of sex , singing bhajans, meditation, yoga, contemplation, selfless service, etc. Even in peak of happiness we transcend....but that lasts only for moments. For some one to be all the time in that transcended state makes a saint or gnani.

Transcendence is only the means........as i point you the crow to show the house. remember crow is not the house...I am just using to help you to get the house...brahman. This type of analogy in sanskrit is called sakha chandra nyaya.

This is the message of all siddhars, yogi's whether born in India or else where in the world. All give the same message ....to transcend from the individual jiva to the wholistic Brahman....only the names change.

Any objection to the above, my dear idiappam sir?

[viggop]

I take the chinese lady helping the bangaladeshi as a form of Godliness.
:D

[Idiappam]

I take the chinese lady helping the bangaladeshi as a form of Godliness.
:D

Probably, that's what Tirumoolar meant!

[Idiappam]

Sir Pradheep said:


Since you think God as a person sitting in heaven you say god was not there. that is your problem of understanding (sorry to be rude...only to get you to the point).

No, God wasn't there, in the thoughts of the woman or the boy! If he existed even, it did not matter!


There are different levels to transcend. As I discussed earlier, act of sex , singing bhajans, meditation, yoga, contemplation, selfless service, etc. .

Well, it did not bother the woman, where she will transcend! She was just pleased to see the injured man happier.

'aduthavarin sumaikalai sumappathoru sugamadaa!' (Arichchandran flim song - Karthick starred)

[pradheep]

No, God wasn't there, in the thoughts of the woman or the boy! If he existed even, it did not matter!

Well, it did not bother the woman, where she will transcend! She was just pleased to see the injured man happier.

God is a concept so it doesnt matterif you think about it or not. Itis also good to be pleased by helping others...

But to be aware of being trasncending is the highest state a human can acheive in his life because , it is the moment he realizes his own true nature....he trascends all his boundaries and limitations to freedom.

If some one wants only brief moments of that state (parol freedom) that is okay, but if one wants permanent freedom from the prison with awareness, that is a choice one has to make.

[Idiappam]

Fantastic Sir Pradheep,

A simple 'anbE Sivam' sprituallity shown by that Chinese woman can beget more than 190 lines from you, just to show that such things 'transcends' to some Vedic things. How much more confusion are the Vedic going to cause??

[pradheep]

'transcends' to some Vedic things. How much more confusion are the Vedic going to cause??

Dear Idiappam
Is "peace" a vedic thing?. Why did the chinese lady help the man?. It was for peace. The transcendance Imentioned wastowards Peace,because that is the real state. Everyone strives to get that peace.

You are right Idiappam, that Peace is a vedic thing. That is why now people are turning towards vedas. Thereis growing number in those who do Yoga and meditation to get peace.

Since you have thebottom line hatred towards the word Veda, you have no peace of mind. So you interpret the Vedas in the way you want to and do not want to know the Truth.

You have no idea of God and you talk about arya and dravida gods.

My suggestion to you is to serve people (Anbe shivam) and get into the first basic step towards peace. Then you will get the glimpse of the what Vedic stuff is. Transcend yourself from your hatred mind to loving mind...transcend from your dividing mind to uniting mind..... Transcend from your ignorance to knowledge (holistic view). Om Shanthi Shanti Shanthihi (Peace peace peace).

[Ilavenil]

There was an elderly Chinese woman who went to visit him at the hospital, with all the money she had, about fifty dollars. Then on she was there everyday, fed hid, wiped him etc etc for weeks till he was discharged. The story was reported in the local papers.

That is what I call 'highest level of spirituallity' - the woman's. God wasn't there! Thirumoolar called that 'Anbe Sivam'.
[/tscii]

Awesome explanation, Idiappam Sir. This is exactly what I think too.

[Sudhaama]

[tscii:8529fea2e6]
What a FUN !... Foolish Hindus are worshipping the Dolls as Gods !!!

True-Episode:--

At Madhuranthakam Town, near Chennai in Tamilnadu, the British- collector riding on a horse, was passing through the streets along with his paraphernalia. He saw the procession of the local-deity of “Rajaramar-Temple”

He commented to his Tahsildar “What a Fun! You Foolish- Hindus are worshipping the Man-made Dolls as Gods!!

Then the accompanying Thasildar humbly pointed out “Sir, it is the Hindu- Religious-faith which if commented upon, the people will revolt against the British-Government”

“So You want me to silently watch this Fun and enjoy at you people’s ridiculous Faith of Foolhardiness.”

By the time, the procession came closeby. The local leading Advocate, the Trustee of theTemple conducting the procession, requested the Collector to alight down from the horse and stand on the ground, since it meant a disrespect or insult otherwise,. hurting the sentiments of the local people of Vedic-faith.

“Oh! You ask me to respect your doll. You the Trustee. understand I am the Ruler of the State as Collector. I need not bow down to even any Human-being here Then.. why... after all to a man-made Doll... that too of your Faith...I should worship or offer respects?... which I do not believe nor consider as a Holy-Faith at all?... other than a ridiculous madness of you foolish Natives.” replied the British-Collector.
.
“I humbly request you Sir... otherwise you will have problems from God and the People”

“Look, I know what is good to me. Don’t teach me anymore. For your information, I don’t believe in God of any Religion...No doubt my Parents are the Staunch-devotees of Christian-faith, regularly reading Bible and go to church. But I do not follow them either... .OK, .Tell me, what is it your man is carrying in a Vessel on Head”

“It is the Holy-water containing the so called Abstract-God-power instilled in , which we will transfer to the Icon and thus make it the worshipful Idol .. rather the Deity for the Goddess Seetha for which we are in the process of Kumbabhishekam”

“I heard about such peculiar customs of you ignorant people So to say, you people create God of your own within a small vessel of Water... and then transform it into a Shapeful God... Ha Ha Ha... Let this idiotic practice or custom go on, as you ignorant people wish I don’t want to interfere, but enjoy the Fun behind””

Same night unseasonally, heavy down-pour of Rain started and within three days, the huge irrigation-tank adjacent to Rama temple got full to the brim.. posing a threat not only to the Temple but also to the whole Madhuranthakam township on the downstream.

When the Collector was alerted on the serious susceptibilty of grave danger, he ordered the Executive-Engineer to get prepared immediately and also rush towards urgent precautionary measures so as to nullify the possibility of Breach to the Tank-bunds…. at all the four vulnerable locations

And it was so meticulously carried out by the respective men by hardwork intensively day and night… alongside the persistent heavy down-pour.

At midnight… the Tahsildar rushed to Collector, woke him up and reported “ Sir, inspite of all our precautions including the opening out the Flood-gates, the Tank-water is gushing out by spilling over the Tank-bunds which spate is very dangerous to break-out the Tank-bund at any moment”

The Collector got alarmed and rushed to the Spot on his Horse in the dark midnight, holding a Battery-Torch-light followed by a batch of his assistants and workmen running behind, carrying Theevattis (Fire-Torches).

At one stage the horse could not run but only walk… and further could not even walk and got frequently slipped making the collector fall down. Then the rider got fed up with the Horse and started walking slowly on the Tank-bund… closely inspecting one after another the four vulnerable spots strengthened by the Engineers precautionary measures.

Suddenly the Collector, stood for a moment and silently knelt down with a Praying-mode of palms.

Immediately the Tahsildar and the people around. rushed to lift him up, thinking that their Master accidently fell-down due to the slippery Tank-bund.

But the Collector turned them out immediately and shouted with Tears

“ You fools are you not seeing those two Warriors with Bows and Arrows, black in complexion, but bright light around... standing at the exact spot where the Tank-bund has already breached partly,. in spite of all our precautions... endangering towards a total-collapse. Do you people mean them as Lord Rama and Lakshmana?... I am able to clearly feel that they are not Human-beings.. but more than the mundane creatures... nor even the Devils... because I see them as Oversized-Men with Smiling-faces and blessing hands towards me. And also the speeding Flood-water is receding backwards, just from the same point where they are standing ... Incredible but True!!... So I worshipped Him back, as a mark of Gratitude.”

“Sir, we don’t see anybody there However Sir, You are lucky to have a God-Dharsan. But we all were fervently praying our Lord Rajarama because he is our Savior, already holding the name as...

.... “Yaeri – Kaaththa – Raamar”..

We are happy, He is protecting us by answering our prayers.”

From that moment the Flood-water started subsiding and within a few days the Engineers declared the Tank as safe.

Then the Collector went to the Rajaramar Temple and prostrated in front of Dwaja-Sthambam silently with Tears rolling down profusely from his Eyes.

He took a vow and declared …”I will personally bear the whole cost of construction of the Goddess Seetha-Temple (within the Raja-ramar Temple premises”)... and so implemented it too.

Even now it can be seen the Ex. British-Collector’s name inscribed on the Seetha- Temple-STONE-WALL.... as the Donor..

... at YAERI-KAATHTHA – RAJARAAMAR TEMPLE .Madhuranthakam in Tamilnadu, India.
[/tscii:8529fea2e6]

[Idiappam]

Uncle Sudhaama Said:
What a FUN !... Foolish Hindus are worshipping the Dolls as Gods !!!

Uncle, Do you know that the Vedas oppose the worshipping of Dolls as gods, because the 'doll worship' is not Aryan Vedic Culture! It is the culture of the Natives of India - that includes the Dravidians.

Do you need some quotes directly from the Vedas?

[viggop]

Sudhaama Sir
WHat a moving story.Please post this in Ramayana thread too.Even a Englishman got to see darshan of Lord Rama and Lakshmana.
He is really privileged.Saint Thyagaraja after singing with all devotion was granted darshan just before his death.He did sing one song about that.His last song.

[Idiappam]

[quote]You are right Idiappam, that Peace is a vedic thing. That is why now people are turning towards vedas. Thereis growing number in those who do Yoga and meditation to get peace.

Please Sir Pradheep, Yoga and meditation are not Vedic -- They are Dravidic.



Since you have thebottom line hatred towards the word Veda, you have no peace of mind. So you interpret the Vedas in the way you want to and do not want to know the Truth.
The methods of interpreting the Vedas - very simple. It is also simple to interpret the Gita, the Manu, the Thevarams, the Siddiyaar etc, it you follow my method. I will tell you the secret later - if you or anyone want to know!


You have no idea of God and you talk about arya and dravida gods.
No one has any idea of God! Do you??


My suggestion to you is to serve people (Anbe shivam) and get into the first basic step towards peace. Then you will get the glimpse of the what Vedic stuff is. Transcend yourself from your hatred mind to loving mind...transcend from your dividing mind to uniting mind.....
The division was there all the time. I did not divide. Sir Pradheep, you have to see and admit that the division exists. Then you will be able to see the solution to the problem of Hinduism. If you go around pretending all are one - you are fooling yourself.

[F.S.Gandhi vandayar]

I Stayed some ten years ago in Muthukarai a small village near Madhuranthakam where my friends house is situated.

I found Vaishava temple there and we both, my friend and I went their for worship. I also went to Melmaruvatthur which is next to madhuranthakam where 'Om sakthi' temple is there.

I didnot see any 'Rama' idol in Madhuranthakam.

f.s.gandhi

[viggop]

Sudhaama Sir
It is also said that when Saint.Thyagaraja was travelling one day, he was attacked by some robbers.He prayed for help and suddenly 2 men(rama and lakshmana) appeared from nowhere and fought and chased away the robbers.He has mentioned this incident in one of his kritis.Do you know which one?

[r_kk]

Thyagaraja was travelling one day, he was attacked by some robbers.He prayed for help and suddenly 2 men(rama and lakshmana) appeared from nowhere and fought and chased away the robbers. He has mentioned this incident in one of his kritis. Do you know which one?



But the Collector turned them out immediately and shouted with Tears ... “ You fools are you not seeing those two Warriors with Bows and Arrows, black in complexion, but bright light around... standing at the exact spot where the Tank-bund has already breached partly,. in spite of all our precautions... endangering towards a total-collapse. Do you people mean them as Lord Rama and Lakshmana?... I am able to clearly feel that they are not Human-beings..


Dear Idiyappam,
I recommend you to accept the above miracles and live in peace… Don’t think rationally and be called as fool!!!. You can’t change any of these people who are myth loving, myth creating and myth spreading.

Here simple selfless love, which you had given as example, also converted as some spiritual/superstitious/super natural related issue and people give sermons as reply to your simple questions. Here most of us are not listeners but mere speakers…

Don’t ask simple questions and most of all don’t expect any simple answers… They will dump you with tons of unbelievable stories but they never answer to your simple one line questions… You have to do 23hr per day Sirasana and balance one hour in chanting to understand their complex concepts...

You can’t change people who talk our cultural heritage in geological scale… relating to continental shift and plate tectonics… If you still expect answers from them, then I have to accept the words they had used against you!!! Sorry Idiyappam!!!

[/tscii:658368b2b0]

[Idiappam]

Ha!Ha! Mr r_kk,

That's the best consolation I have ever had in my life. Thanks, buddy!

But I'd rather say something and be called a fool, than to sit here fuming at lies being propogated.

We need all here, with opposing views, wills and with all kinds of motives and cravings. Else this place is gonna get dull!.

One Thiruvasagam song for you, Mr r_kk.
[tscii:9bbb0a36dd]´Õ¿¡Áõ µÕÕÅõ ´ýÚÁ¢øÄ¡üÌ ¬Â¢Ãó
¾¢Õ¿¡Áõ À¡Ê¿¡õ ¦¾û§Ç½í ¦¸¡ð¼¡§Á¡. 8.11.1[/tscii:9bbb0a36dd]
To Him, Who hath nor name, nor form,
A thousand sacred names SING WE, and beat TeLLENam!

[F.S.Gandhi vandayar]

Whetever 'puranas' are enough to propogate things.

Are still more 'puranas' required ? Will it be fruitful ?

"Netrikkan Party" - Kindly ask yourself.

[r_kk]

"Netrikkan Party" - Kindly ask yourself.
great!!! :D
i picked up this quote when I was argueeing in "Does God Exist" thred.... Let me find a suitable one for this thread and change...

Thanks FSG

[F.S.Gandhi vandayar]

Or let them tell these are imaginative stories. Or let them give 'Akaththuman' explanation.

"why" & "How" make human being thirsty and these are accepted in any religion.

[viggop]

The link where this miracle is mentioned is here.
http://www.ramakrishnamath.com/article26.asp

When I was hearing a kriti in Music Academy , chennai,i heard that this particular Kriti mentioned this incident too.Hence I want to know what Kriti is that in which saint thygaraja mentioned this incident.

[viggop]

hi all,
I found an excellent website on saint thygarajar
http://www.saintthyagarajar.com/
:-)

[viggop]

Sudhaama Sir
I found out that carnatic Kriti.It is "Mundu Venuka" sung in Darbar ragam .
The lyrics are here.
http://www.geocities.com/promiserani2/c2568.html

[viggop]

[tscii:0a5ae47d98]Tyagaraja proceeded from Kovvur to Tirupati. As the party was leaving, Sundaresa Mudaliar thrust a bag of gold coins into the palanquin in which Tyagaraja was to travel. The disciples were requested not to inform Tyagaraja about the money. En route at Nakalapuram, dacoits began stoning the convoy, terrifying the disciples but not Tyagaraja who stated that since they had no money they need fear nothing.

The penitent disciples then confessed to the Guru about the presence of the cash whereupon Tyagaraja felt that the money ought to be given to the robbers at once. At this, one of Tyagaraja’s disciples mentioned that Mudaliar had been emphatic that the money was meant for Rama’s worship and so they did not have the right to dispose off the cash. Tyagaraja resolved the problem in his usual forthright fashion by stating that if it was Rama’s money He ought to protect it Himself. For his part, he sang the kriti mundu vENUka in darbAr and the stoning stopped. The dacoits rushed to Tyagaraja and fell at his feet and requested him to enable them to have a repeat vision of the two handsome warriors who had appeared and guarded the convoy when he began his song. Tyagaraja realised that his song had ironically enabled the bandits to have a darshan of his Lord, while he had himself not had the pleasure.[/tscii:0a5ae47d98]

[Sudhaama]

Dear Mr. Viggop,

Beautifully presented exactly as per the authentic Thyagaraja's Life- History in the former part.

So I have copied your posting and reproduced it under another relevant Thread on Thyagaraja, wheretoo, we will discuss in another angle.

And the latter part goes thus...

During his Palanqin travel through the Forest-regions, Mahan Thyagaraja was informed that the Robberers hiding behind the trees are throwing stones towards the Travellers alongside their shouts to surrender all the wealth, lest it will be plundered. forcibly, even by causing injuries or Murder.

Thyagaraja replies.... "Inform them that we have no money with us... since we are the devotees on Pilgrimage, depending upon the local Hosts.."

"Sorry, Swamiji, the devotee Kovur Sundaresa Mudaliar gave us money, and advised us to keep it confidential even to you, since you refused to accept the same money, when he offered to you formerly. "

"Oh I see... No doubt I told him, that I am not interested to carry money with me, which will unduly fetch miseries, diverting our attention towards. Bhakthi, the devotional-spirit, which is the very purpose of pilgrimage. Lord Rama is taking care of us wherever we go... through His devotees... Then why we need money additionally? So I told Sundaresa -mudaliar, on his much requests.. Even after hearing my such detailed justification on my principle, is he forcing me to violate from my principle... truly needed for a Devotee.?... Where is that Money?.. Give me"

Then holding the Money-bundle on hand he shouted towards the hiding Robbers... "Oh the poor Robberers... Here is the Money. Come and Receive it. I offer you with pleasure and not out of Fear."

Such a sudden trend was unexpected for his disciples. .. So they immediately appealed to their Guru... "Swamiji, Sri Mudaliar gave this money for the day to day Rama-pooja expenses and not for our sake."

" Oh Then it is Rama's money... Let Him take care of His own money"... saying so he placed it within the Pooja-Box.

... and sang the Song... Mundhu-venuka-iru pakkala-thoadai..." in Darbar Raga meaning .. "Oh Rama! You are the Protector of the whole world, why do you unnecessarily trouble us, (by such interferences enroute our pilgrimage?)

Within minutes... the Robberes rushed towards Thyagaraja and surrendered apologising to them... and stated...

"Swamiji we did not know your greatness... We realise only now after seeing the two dark-complexioned Warriors holding-Bow-and arrow attacked us with the volley of arrows on all of us, even towards those hiding... see how much we are all severely injured!... and further see they are protecting you, walking together with your convoy, one in Front and another in the Rear" said the Roberer-captain.

"Ah! Rama, I am unable to see you... rather you have not bestowed me your Divine-Darshanam ... whereas these Robberes are luckier than us.!
And one more wonder... I sang the song "Mundhu-venuka"... meaning the Mundhu=Front and Venuka= Rear of Seetha, you both walked and proteced the Devi.. during your forest-walk.. Now the same formula you have applied for me! Oh Rama... are you the God!!! or my Servant?

[r_kk]

Ha!Ha! Mr r_kk,

One Thiruvasagam song for you, Mr r_kk.
[tscii:36eb31b042]´Õ¿¡Áõ µÕÕÅõ ´ýÚÁ¢øÄ¡üÌ ¬Â¢Ãó
¾¢Õ¿¡Áõ À¡Ê¿¡õ ¦¾û§Ç½í ¦¸¡ð¼¡§Á¡. 8.11.1[/tscii:36eb31b042]
To Him, Who hath nor name, nor form,
A thousand sacred names SING WE, and beat TeLLENam!

Hi Idiyappam,

Thanks for the Thiruvasagam song.... I also have one sone for you, written by rajasaranam... You may find it interesting....

http://forumhub.mayyam.com/hub/viewtopic.php?t=97&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=420

I appreciate your questioning curiosity and determination to get answers from opponents.... Keep it up....

[Ilavenil]

[tscii:963d5e50a2]
What a FUN !... Foolish Hindus are worshipping the Dolls as Gods !!!

True-Episode:--

At Madhuranthakam Town,

“Sir, we don’t see anybody there However Sir, You are lucky to have a God-Dharsan. But we all were fervently praying our Lord Rajarama because he is our Savior, already holding the name as...

.... “Yaeri – Kaaththa – Raamar”..

He took a vow and declared …”I will personally bear the whole cost of construction of the Goddess Seetha-Temple (within the Raja-ramar Temple premises”)... and so implemented it too.

Even now it can be seen the Ex. British-Collector’s name inscribed on the Seetha- Temple-STONE-WALL.... as the Donor..

... at YAERI-KAATHTHA – RAJARAAMAR TEMPLE .Madhuranthakam in Tamilnadu, India[/tscii:963d5e50a2]

Sudhama Sir,

I was really moved by the story. If I were a 2 year old, I would love to hear more of these stories. But, now, I have realized that these are stories, and stories only.

Please tell me the truth, do you believe that God has form? When kids ask who is God? Where is God? It was very difficult to explain the real concept. Hence Gods were given form so that it will be easy for the kids to understand and more so, that is why they were given human forms. I think in those days people thought human beings are the ultimate creation of God and hence they gave him human form. But, at your age, you should be telling us, guiding us towards the real concept of God, instead, you are saying, two men with bow and arrow stories. I am really disappointed. :roll:

[Surya]

Well,

Ilavenil,
Rama is an avatar. Avatars are worshiped as god. Rama is a human avatar, so Ram had an outer appearance, now, does Vishnu have an outer appearance? That's subjective. Some belive he does, some don't. But the point is, Rama had an outer appearance, just like all the other 8 avatars that have taken place so far.

Now if one wants to argue if Ramayan really happened or not, that's futile. Argueing on things like Ramayan, and Mahabharath has no end. We could sit here all day, all night, all week, month year, decade, century, millenium, argueing this, and get absolutley no where, because some people refuse to believe that it happened even though there is substantial evidence, because their so-called "modern" :contemporary" and "secular" thought process stops them from doing so. :)

Please do not take the following as an invitation to an arguement on historical events. :wink:
Small note:
Just because something doesn't seem probable doesn't mean it didn't happen. Did it seem probable a few decades ago, for man stepping on the moon? No. But has it happened? YES. Without all the hours of research, would it have seemed probable that the ancient egyptians could preserve dead bodies? No. So we can never say that something like ramayan and mahabarath didn't happen for sure just because it isn't probable. :)


PS: Anyone read about the archeological finds of a Palace under water in the Gujarat Region? *Gujarat Region is where Krishna's Empire Dwaraka once existed, which went under water @ the end of Dwapara Yugham.*

Regards. 8)

[Ilavenil]

Well,

Ilavenil,
Rama is an avatar. Avatars are worshiped as god. Rama is a human avatar, so Ram had an outer appearance

Hi Surya,

It been quite sometime since we argued :) I totally agree with you that Rama had a human form, but, that is because he was a human being. Like you said, I am not arguing whether Ramar exsisted or not. If at all he had exsisted, he was a very good son and a good human being (Bad husband though!). He did exhibit God like good qualities, may be we should follow them too, does that make a man, God. Do we worship Gandhi?

[viggop]

I agree with Ilavenil that God is formless.It is also correct that idol worship & worship of forms in Hinduism is symbolic.The form was created to help in the first step towards spirituality.It helps to concentrate mind on the form when you are beginning your spiritual journey.once,you advance ,you will come to realize the formlessness of God.
Hearing such stories is also recommended as they keep on reminding us about God.That is why reading ramayana,mahabharatha,bhgavatam is recommended in Hinduism

[F.S.Gandhi vandayar]

Rama is an avatar. Avatars are worshiped as god. Rama is a human avatar, so Ram had an outer appearance, now, does Vishnu have an outer appearance? That's subjective. Some belive he does, some don't. But the point is, Rama had an outer appearance, just like all the other 8 avatars that have taken place so far.

What about kalki avatar ?

[Idiappam]

What about kalki avatar ?

The Avatars of Vishnu, we have all seen. With horse and chariots, bows and arrows etc.

Now in this era of modern 'means'. What do you think Sri Kalki Bhagavan will be riding?

SuperPuma Helicopters?? Armed with granade launchers??? I don't have the faintest idea!

[viggop]

According to Hindu mythology, Kalki avataram is supposed to happen at the end of Kali yugam.
Vishnu will be appearing on a white horse carrying a sword.
That is the beginning of the pralayam.
After that , the 4 yuga cycle will start again.

[Raghu]

According to Hindu mythology, Kalki avataram is supposed to happen at the end of Kali yugam.
Vishnu will be appearing on a white horse carrying a sword.
That is the beginning of the pralayam.
After that , the 4 yuga cycle will start again.

But Viggop after the Kalki avatar in this dark age of Kali Yuga, this mundane cosmic world is suppose to end, not start another 4 yuga cycle, as far as I know, pls correct me if I am wrong!

[viggop]

Hi Raghu
As far as I know,it'll start all over again.There is some concept of 1 Brahma day and 1 Brahma night.every day,he'll restart the process of creation and end of brahma's day,it'll all end. :)

[Raghu]

Hi Raghu
As far as I know,it'll start all over again.There is some concept of 1 Brahma day and 1 Brahma night.every day,he'll restart the process of creation and end of brahma's day,it'll all end. :) :?

hmmm... Ok, that's a new bit of info for me :D

[pradheep]

Yoga and meditation are not Vedic -- They are Dravidic.
Dear Idiappamsir
I dont take the aryan invasion theory and so for me there is no division of vedic and dravidic.


I will tell you the secret later - if you or anyone want to know!

Please go ahead. This is a discussion forum and it is meant for it.


No one has any idea of God! Do you??

Yes, for atma and No for my mind.


I did not divide. Sir Pradheep, you have to see and admit that the division exists.

The ego-mind divides and is dervives its nourishment from divisions.


Anbe Shivam

what do you thing about the real meaning instead of the literal meaning? It is a secret- guhya....secret means... it dawns to you....others can point the direction...but you have to get it.

[pradheep]

[tscii:434d3c8ab9]Dear Viggop and Raghu
You are correct...

One day of the life of Brahma has, like ours, 86,400 seconds (24 hours x 60 minutes x 60 seconds). But his time scale is different. One second of Brahma’s day equals 100, 000 human years. So one full day and night of Brahma is equivalent to 8.64 billion human years. Each night when he goes to sleep, Brahma dissolves the universe and recreates it next morning. In this way, he creates innumerable cycles of creation in his 100 years of life span which is equal to 311.04 trillion human years (8.4 billion x 360 days x 100). This information can be found in the Matsya Purana, and is quoted in The Mythic Image by Joseph Campbell (pp. 141-144).


one day of Brahma is equal to 8.64 billion human years and his 100 years is 311.04 trillion human years. At the end of one Kalpa (one day of Brahma), the whole world is destroyed. Brahma is believed to go to sleep for one night, dissolving the world as he does. When he awakens, he recreates the world.

According to the Puranas, when Brahma completes his life span of one hundred years (311.04 trillion human years), Vishnu dissolves the entire universe. This is a mega-dissolution or Maha-pralaya.


Summary: There are many Brahmas and Indras...they are only positions..but Vishnu and shiva is only one. So many Brahmas are created and each brahma has a ver very limited lifespan (311.04 trillion years).[/tscii:434d3c8ab9]

[F.S.Gandhi vandayar]

I dont take the aryan invasion theory and so for me there is no division of vedic and dravidic.

Don't You know the new version. :) New avatar. :!: "Aryan never invaded. But Aryans are Indians. They are Brahmins".

Kindly watch discussion going on 'Tamil is elder to Sanskrit"

[Sudhaama]

Dear Mr."F.S.Gandhi vandayar"

//I dont take the aryan invasion theory and so for me there is no division of vedic and dravidic.//

Don't You know the new version. :) New avatar. :!: "Aryan never invaded. But Aryans are Indians. They are Brahmins"//

While I am quite happy and eagerous to read each and every posting of yours wherever and whatever it may be... because I find your Wisdom and rich Knowledge in it....

After residing in the major parts of India of various Regional-Languages ... as also moving with the multiple ethnicity of people in several foreign countries too ... I have learnt a lot to say with the Large-Heart... sans Hatred towards anyone individual or group of people Globally too...but the Humane-Love

True to my heart I can affirm that I have done my best to lift up several downtrodden families during my long career...

Since God had shaped me... by showing both the exteremities of life mostly the worst suffering for the major part.

I have several friends globally, holding divergent beliefs and principles, quite diametrically opposite to mine... even staunch Atheists... but our Friendship is similar to Rajaji-Periyar type.

So with Ill-will towards none I say this...

Please believe me... I am your Admirer and Well-wisher.... if you permit my frankness... I will say...I wonder at your stooping down day by day towards Narrow-minded-approach even on the Large-Hearted Subjects like this...

... pouring out your burning Jealousy on one Community generalising it on thebasis of birth.... everywhere you touch... carrying it on your head

. ... always chanting Arya-Dravida-.Brahmin.... everywhere..all your time

.. dragging us also towards that irrelevant WRONG direction.. on which we are fed up to hear again and again the same Pulambal..

If you still feel there is a lot more for you to speak on Aryan-Dravidian and Brahmin... please start a separate and exclusive Thread on it and pour out as much as you desire... and thus satisfy yourselves... if that is your motto.

My dear Friend... is it fair on your part to spread Hatred and Jealousy amongst your Friend-Hubbers.... the Viewers of This Hub all over the Globe.?

Even after reaching Saudi-Arabia... don't you think of our Great Indian- Heritage especially the UNPARALLEL Tamilian-Culture incuded in it?

Are you not able to think and raise such healthy factors here... especially the rich Thirukkuralh cult, in which you are deeply interested?

Being an Old-bandicoot Well-wisher of seven donkeys age... I remind you my dear Friend... the REALITY in Life is... that...

(1) The most Valuable Outer-Treasure in Life is TIME... which once lost cannot be regained...

So Let you and I not waste that INVALUABLE-TREASURE... but make the best use of it by SELF-ENJOYMENT of each minute as also spreading that Enjoyment spirit amongst others too..

(2) The most Invaluable INNER-TREASURE in Life is PEACE-OF-MIND.. which alone is the Greatest and Unparallel Happiness....

.. which once lost cannot be regained similar to Time... So let us conserve and protect it by our Healthy Thoughts and actions ...

.. and thus make the best use of such an attitude towards SELF-ENJOYMENT of each minute as also spreading that HUMANE-SPIRIT of Yaavarum-Kaelhir amongst others

At least in future... I am anxious to see your Large-Heart ... meant in this Thread.

[Idiappam]

Uncle Sudhamaa said:

//At least in future...I am anxious to see your Large-Heart ... meant in this Thread.//

Why Uncle?? YOu can't stoop so low either! I did see you brag about yourself in your last post, but going by the claims that you have trodden the globe all over, that you seen all kinds of people and that you have helped many, you insult above on Mr Gandhi does not reflect any LARGE-HEART residing within you.

As a 'seasoned' man, as you claim, Uncle, you should know that in a forum like this - you should pay attention to 'what the other Man says' and not to 'what the other Man is'.

Don't stoop so low Uncle Sudhaama! Learn how to listen to people and not just to look at them!

YOu have a long way to go!

[Idiappam]

Sir Pradheep said:

Quote:
Yoga and meditation are not Vedic -- They are Dravidic.

Dear Idiappamsir
I dont take the aryan invasion theory and so for me there is no division of vedic and dravidic

YOu did say that 'yoga and meditation' are from The Vedas, didn't you, and isn't that a lie?? Or it just that you have not read the Vedas at all! My dear, Sir Pradheep, go read the Vedas!

And I urge all those who have the time to take a glance at least at those Vedas. YOu would realise that there is nothing but 'some devotional' hymns there! (ills censored).

[viggop]

Uncle Sudhamaa said:
As a 'seasoned' man, as you claim, Uncle, you should know that in a forum like this - you should pay attention to 'what the other Man says' and not to 'what the other Man is'.


Idiappam Sir
Will all respect to your age and your wisdom, i must say that you were also guilty of posting based on what the other person is.
(Some caste based remarks were posted by you in Thamizh Isai thread).

Senior people like you and sudhaama sir should show the way to youngsters like us. :)

[Idiappam]

Uncle Sudhamaa said:
As a 'seasoned' man, as you claim, Uncle, you should know that in a forum like this - you should pay attention to 'what the other Man says' and not to 'what the other Man is'.


Idiappam Sir
Will all respect to your age and your wisdom, i must say that you were also guilty of posting based on what the other person is.
(Some caste based remarks were posted by you in Thamizh Isai thread).

Senior people like you and sudhaama sir should show the way to youngsters like us. :)

Ha ha! My dear Viggop, I am at least 30 years younger than Uncle, I guess!

I am guilty??? Well??? At least you should know that I go easy on counter-attacks.

But I know I am not quilty of one thing --- I don't tell others what to do and what not to do!

[Sudhaama]

Dear Mr. "Idiappam"

// ... I know I am not quilty of one thing --- I don't tell others what to do and what not to do! //

Dear Friends... why you are jumping in so much even before the reciprocation of the Gentleman whom I addressed.

I want to know...if and when..."you fear"... that the trend of your friend's approach is suicidal and detrimental even towards his interests...(indeed in your opinion)

.. Will you not intervene?....And if you do not caution your friend,... (to whom you are the well-wisher)... well in time ...

...then can you call yourselves as his/her well-wisher?

Dear Mr. Idiappam... You are welcome to ADVICE me ... well I am happy to consider... and also GUIDE me on what I should and should not do... Because you are my Well-wisher, I believe.

...But please think over on what I say IN YOUR INTERESTS TOO...

After all I am a Hunter-boy by attitude... born and brought up in the Human-Forest.... burnt my fingers and learnt life...

So I wish ... let not others too unnecessarily suffer like me due to ignorance (as I was before prior to Life-experience)...

...but take the benefit of my rich experience... towards their Advantage.

As a Hunter boy I caution the people... on where the Tiger is hiding and where there is a Deceptive- Mire and Where the Fruity Trees and where the route they need.. and so on...

... Whether anybody seek from me or not... I volunteer to caution... irrespective of others Value or Neglect on my words of good intentions .

.... that is... this bloody idiot Sudhaama..

You want to see that Hunter-Boy...Sudhaama?... See my Photo on the side, a boy holding the Y shaped Stick... keenly watching all around.!!!

[Raghu]

Dear Mr. "Idiappam"

// ... I know I am not quilty of one thing --- I don't tell others what to do and what not to do! //

Dear Friends... why you are jumping in so much even before the reciprocation of the Gentleman whom I addressed.

I want to know...if and when..."you fear"... that the trend of your friend's approach is suicidal and detrimental even towards his interests...(indeed in your opinion)

.. Will you not intervene?....And if you do not caution your friend,... (to whom you are the well-wisher)... well in time ...

...then can you call yourselves as his/her well-wisher?

Dear Mr. Idiappam... You are welcome to ADVICE me ... well I am happy to consider... and also GUIDE me on what I should and should not do... Because you are my Well-wisher, I believe.

...But please think over on what I say IN YOUR INTERESTS TOO...

After all I am a Hunter-boy by attitude... born and brought up in the Human-Forest.... burnt my fingers and learnt life...

So I wish ... let not others too unnecessarily suffer like me due to ignorance (as I was before prior to Life-experience)...

...but take the benefit of my rich experience... towards their Advantage.

As a Hunter boy I caution the people... on where the Tiger is hiding and where there is a Deceptive- Mire and Where the Fruity Trees and where the route they need.. and so on...

... Whether anybody seek from me or not... I volunteer to caution... irrespective of others Value or Neglect on my words of good intentions .

.... that is... this bloody idiot Sudhaama..

You want to see that Hunter-Boy...Sudhaama?... See my Photo on the side, a boy holding the Y shaped Stick... keenly watching all around.!!!

Sudhama sir,

Please I beg you not to argue with these mundane people, please sir :(

[Idiappam]

Raghu Said:

Sudhama sir,

Please I beg you not to argue with these mundane people, please sir

Yes Sir, we need more of your 'paatti vada sutta katha'! - That's what you meant, right Raghu?

[Idiappam]

Uncle Sudhamaa,

Please go back to your post to Mr Ghandi and read that again. Your message was very clear. 'Go back and do what you were doing - and mind your own business there.'

If you were truly a well wisher - you should have sent him a private message - and not post that long-winded 'advice' filled with do's and don'ts. Public messages get responses from me too.

I know that many hubbers like me, and even more dislike me, because I ask too many questions - when they post generalisations like - 'The Vedas are the GOSPEL for all Hindus' - That's your line, Uncle.

Anyway, this is not a place to talk this. I will just go listen to this song - Dhandapani Desikar's voice - Film Thirumazhisai Alwar! Then, perhaps, I may feel the way you do!

http://www.tfmpage.com/cgi-bin/stream.pl?url=http://www.dhool.com/sotd/thirumazhi.rm
http://www.dhool.com/sotd2/260.html

[Sudhaama]

[tscii:cd1245d04a]
What is meant by India here.. by Region?


In fact… the Indian-Heritage, we mean here pertains to the whole region of the LEMURIA of the yester-era of Origin of Human-Culture ever on Earth…. The shape and Land-boundary of such a Lemuria-continent was far and far different from the present Asia.

… which includes the present political-regions of India, Pakistan,Baluchistan, Turkey, Turkmenistan,Gulf-countries Bangladesh, Burma, Nepal, Bhutan, Tibet, Srilanka, Singapore, Malaysia, Japan, Indonesia, Korea, Vietnam, Thailand, Burma… and so on… so to say, the whole of the present Asian continent plus the border regions too.

… which were the regions of Human-origin… especially the Wise, far discernible from the so called Forest Creatures… of Beasts and Reptile- species.

We can notice… during the Hindu marriages and such other ceremonies… the Sastry used to start the Manthras chanting in Sanskrit as….

“Bhaaratha-Varshae, Bharatha-h- Khandae….Maroahoa Dhakshinhae-paarswae…”

… which means… we perform this Holy-act in .. Bharatha-Khanda which is in the South of Himalayas (named here as the Symbolic Maeru-mount) which Khantam is a part of Bhaaratha-Varsham… the larger Continent.

“Bhaaratha-Varsha” region denotes Lemuria plus its Border regions.

What is meant by Bhaaratha or Bhaaratham or Bhaarath?

Many people are attributing it with the King Bharatha, the Son of Dushyantha-Sakuthalai parents.

No it is not correct to say so. Even prior to the Birth of Dushyantha… the Nation was named as Bhaaratha.

… which means… the Holy-Land… Sacred-Soil… Divine-Nation or the like. because …

(1) This is the part of the World- region, where the Humanity originated… at Prayag (later named Allahabad) on the Bank of Saraswathi-River the only perennial River all through the year… while all otrher Rivers were either Seasonal / Non-perennial or was Covered with Ice. No doubt in Africa too, there were perennial Rivers, but the Human-creatures developed there several centuries later.

(2) This Land called Bhaaratha, was chosen by God to take birth as also send his apostles to enlighten the whole Mankind as the first step, through the Tamil-Gospels like Aaththi-Choodi (Sage Auvaiyar is the Reincarnation of the Godess Saraswathi)… followed by the Sanskrit-Vedic-preachings, through the Rishis

(3) The River Ganga and Yamuna… the equally Holy rivers flow only in this region so called Bhaaratha.. The incredible peculiarity in Ganga water can be noticed even now… that no Germs develop in it… even after its several day storage.
[/tscii:cd1245d04a]

[Sudhaama]

Dear Mr "Idiappam"

// If you were truly a well wisher - you should have sent him a private message - and not post that long-winded 'advice' filled with do's and don'ts. Public messages get responses from me too.//

That is your opinion... my Object of posting here, is to make all knowof my thoughts on the matter...

... irrespective of varying reactions on it from different Friends... to all of whom I am the well-wisher...

... whether they relish my thoughts or not.

I welcome you to say whatever you feel like, even if it be contrary to mine....

... which too I will appreciate and encourage so long it does not cross the Gentlemanly-boundaries.. as prescribed by Thiru-Valhlhuvar.

[Idiappam]

[tscii:a29eb3f514]Uncle Sudhaama Said:

through the Tamil-Gospels like Aaththi-Choodi (Sage Auvaiyar is the Reincarnation of the Godess Saraswathi)…

There were altogether 7 Auvaiyars! Which one is the avatar of Godess Saraswathi? Or did Saraswathi take multi-avatar like Vishnu? In which purana can we find this Avartaram story?[/tscii:a29eb3f514]

[Sudhaama]

... AUVAIYAAR.

Dear Mr."Idiappam"

// There were altogether 7 Auvaiyars! Which one is the avatar of Godess Saraswathi? Or did Saraswathi take multi-avatar like Vishnu? In which purana can we find this Avartaram story? //

We were taught in School so... and also further discussed in various Tamil- Seminars, I had heard during the past about 60 years.... on which basis I am writing here.

Auvaiyar the Reincarnation of Goddess Saraswathi... has taken Awatharas in India THRICE..

... the first and the last, in the full-grown-up form.... similar to Narasimha- awathaaram .

First appeared at Prayag in full grown-up form ...in the middle of the river and then walked to the bank... lived with the people there, preaching the Doctrines of Humanity, including Aaththi-choodi.

Second time appeared as a Child ...near Kooththanoor in Choazha-naadu (picked up by a Brahmin-pandit taking bath in the river early morning), from the Floating-Basket on the River Kaveri... He brought her up and just at the verge of her marriage she was initiated as the Sage by Lord Vinayaka. Maximum com[ositions have been made only during this medieval period.

Third time she appeared in full grown form in Chaera-Naadu, near Kanya-kumari, during which period she had authenticated Thirukkuralh in the the Thamizh-Changam.

There are several Tamil Thani-p-Padals and Temple- Copper- plated- documents as well as Stone-carved Epigraphics... which corroborate with each other to believe the above version of Avvaiyars Life-History..

But the Miracle is... she used to appear at far off different places simultaneously as also one after another.. But how she could pass such a long distance by walk was wondered by all ... and unanswered by her.

And also... there are no Samadhis for anyone of these three Auvaiyaars ... because she used to suddenly disappear from the scene. on Earth.. during her Lifetime as also at the End of every birth..

She proved her as the Super-Human Divine-birth by making the Nature to abide to her commands... by getting Rains, Making the Earth to break... and such events incredible t any common man.

She showed Tamil also a Manthra-Language... so to say by chanting Tamil-words too.... she proved it possible to get the Divine-Grace.

Whereas... until her appearance in Tamilnadu it was the belief...that the Sanskrit was the only Divine Language carrying Manthra-Values.

So to say.. there are only Two Languages in India, which are also Divine ... They are Tamil and Sanskrit.

Auvaiyar treated Lord Vinayaka as her Guru... because she got her Upadesam, Guidance and maximum Support on her Earthly mission from the Lord Ganesa... more than the other forms of Vedic-Gods.

[hehehewalrus]

Sudhama sir,

Please I beg you not to argue with these mundane people, please sir :(

You all dropped from some high heaven I s'pose? :?

[Idiappam]

I guess so, Walrus! I don't know where they came from, but I am trying to them back there, heaven or hell! :lol: :lol:

[Sudhaama]

Dear Mr."hehehewalrus"

// quote="Raghu"... Sudhama sir Please I beg you not to argue with these mundane people, please sir :?/

// You all dropped from some high heaven I s'pose? :? ?//

Yes Yes... I was brought from Heaven ...by one Walrus chanting the Manthra "hehe"...

So I am the only person here who can identify another heavenly-birth... "hehewalrus", my companion.

A Great Secret !!!...You all will go to Moksha by chanting this Holy Manthra.

That holy- manthra is "hehe"... Oh All my dear Friends join with me to chant... hehe... hehe... hehe... hehe.... constantly

... until the Great Deva... "hehewalrus" arrives... He will take us to Moksha .. the Bliss.

[Surya]

:rotfl: :rotfl: @ Sudhamma Ji.

It seems he is chanting the mantra, look at his avatar. :wink:


Hi Surya,

It been quite sometime since we argued :) I totally agree with you that Rama had a human form, but, that is because he was a human being. Like you said, I am not arguing whether Ramar exsisted or not. If at all he had exsisted, he was a very good son and a good human being (Bad husband though!). He did exhibit God like good qualities, may be we should follow them too, does that make a man, God. Do we worship Gandhi?

I don't know if we can still aruge this here, the thread has gone in a different direction. But anywayz,

Gandhi is completly different. I don't think he reflected god like qualities, but let's not get into that. Let's say that he was the "Perfect Human Being" Just for arguement's sake. Gandhi was a perfect Human Being, But Ram isn't just a human being. I'm sure that there were many kings who had similar qualities as Ram, but what makes Ram different is that he is an Avatar. Not just a mere human being. There are many instances in the Ramayana which show that he is more than just a mere human. :)

I really wish I could post more, but I gotta run.

See Y'all in a couple hours. 8)

[Raghu]

---deleted by moderator----

[viggop]

Friends
Why all this sarcasm ? People will have different views.There is no need to indulge in personal abuse just because other person has an alternate view.Everyone can put forth his or her view and need not abuse other people.Let us please stick to the topic being discussed.

[F.S.Gandhi vandayar]

... always chanting Arya-Dravida-.Brahmin.... everywhere..all your time

Dear Sudhaama, :)

I carry history Binacular always and see in all world ancient civilizations and find tamils presence there. When I try to expose this Manuvadis come in the middle eulosizing vedhic culture.

When I tried to explain what vedhic means how it was developed they try to occupy with false propogations. This let me unavoidable remarks not due to personal hatred towards particular community since it was first initiated not by me but some other person. I need to explain what is what.

I have great regard for that community and most of my quotes were written by those who perceived to be Brahmins.

I treat them as tamils. But manuvadis do not allow it. Time to time they try to propogate certain issues pertaining to them.

Kindly once again go through all my posts and see who initiated that type of hidden agenda.

f.s.gandhi

[F.S.Gandhi vandayar]

But I know I am not quilty of one thing --- I don't tell others what to do and what not to do!

Dear Idiappam, :)

"Thakkar Thakavilar enpathu avaravar Echchaththal Kaanappadum"-

is valluvam. Hence you are right. When people eulogise something or some community with myth we have to make queries about them.

That is the real liberation. Strong criticism that too subject based should be taken kind and broad hearted way. Instead of getting into the criticism made getting into what subject expressed is essential.

f.s.gandhi

[suressh]

:)



I don't know if we can still aruge this here, the thread has gone in a different direction. But anywayz,

Gandhi is completly different. I don't think he reflected god like qualities, but let's not get into that. Let's say that he was the "Perfect Human Being" Just for arguement's sake. Gandhi was a perfect Human Being, But Ram isn't just a human being. I'm sure that there were many kings who had similar qualities as Ram, but what makes Ram different is that he is an Avatar. Not just a mere human being. There are many instances in the Ramayana which show that he is more than just a mere human. :)

well... you take gandhiji's perfection for an arguement....

while lord rama is backed up by hindus, allah by muslims, jesus by christians.... gandhiji is backed up by all people irrespective of religions...

and he is the person who performed the miracle during my period, by preaching ahimsa, practising ahimsa by himself and also making atleast 10crore of people to follow ahimsa. i dont think had been possible for many GODS.

if and all, i am convinced that there is a god physically, i would rather prefer to worship gandhiji happily instead of any other god.

:)

[Idiappam]

... AUVAIYAAR.

Dear Mr."Idiappam"

// There were altogether 7 Auvaiyars! Which one is the avatar of Godess Saraswathi? Or did Saraswathi take multi-avatar like Vishnu? In which purana can we find this Avartaram story? //

We were taught in School so... and also further discussed in various Tamil- Seminars, I had heard during the past about 60 years.... on which basis I am writing here.

Auvaiyar the Reincarnation of Goddess Saraswathi... has taken Awatharas in India THRICE..

I don't know why, of all the stories and tales of Auvaiyar(s) this 'avtar of Saraswathi' is given so much importance in your School and those Seminars. These are just myths.

Anyway, those myth-makers must have been extremely impressed by Avaiyar that they decided to make a God-avtar of her - Goddess Saraswati (Kalaimagal in Tamil), some more, The 'Goddess of Learning!' Great - we will leave that alone!


Whereas... until her appearance in Tamilnadu it was the belief...that the Sanskrit was the only Divine Language carrying Manthra-Values.

NO!~. Tamils have a better idea of what 'Manthras' should be even before Tholkappiar!

[tscii:2ecf61a161]¿¢¨È¦Á¡Æ¢ Á¡ó¾÷ ¬¨½Â¢ý ¸¢Çó¾
Á¨È¦Á¡Æ¢¾¡§É Áó¾¢Ãõ ±ýÀ. [/tscii:2ecf61a161]
--Tholkappiam 7.171


So to say.. there are only Two Languages in India, which are also Divine ... They are Tamil and Sanskrit.

What do you mean when you say 'Divine Language'??? I don't get you, Uncle.

Of the 7 real-human Avaiyar - I will post in soon!

[pradheep]

Kindly watch discussion going on 'Tamil is elder to Sanskrit"

dear Gandhi
I read your wonderful posts in other section. i dont debate too much on history because it is dificult to talk about the time scale. I value ancient tradition but what is the point in debates if we cannot practice it in our daily life - "NOW". So what if Sanskrit came from Tamil or vice versa?. How does it help us Now?. It is a waste, I would say debating these things based on time. All human race come from one parentage, which diverged into many and infact all "beings" originate from one "cell". My point is, instead of fighting over what we are now, why dont we discuss about that "One" from which everything have emerged. I see this seeking "Oneness" is the theme of vedic or the dravidic and in that view I do not see a difference between the two.

Could you please give the root of anbu (love) is it something related to identify with? (I am not asking again the root of which came first or second...but the root word). Thanks a lot.

[Sudhaama]

[tscii:a7ce70da3b]
... Tamil also is the... DEVA-BHASHA ... the Divine-Language !!!

Dear Mr."Idiappam"

// [quote]Sudhaama:-- So to say.. there are only Two Languages in India, which are also Divine ... They are Tamil and Sanskrit.//

// What do you mean when you say 'Divine Language'??? I don't get you, Uncle.//

By my above words... I mean...

(1) There are only TWO CLASSICAL-LANGUAGES in India amongst the Indian-Languages... One is Tamil and the other is Sanskrit.(even though Sanskrit is called a Dead-Language, being out of use by the Commonfolks, still that language exists in other modes of usage). So tosay all the Indian Languages have emanated from Tamil and Sanskrit....

Prominently North-Indian Languages have originated from Sanskrit, whileall the South-Indian Languages have originated from Tamil invariably.... with the admixture of Sanskrit words.

(2) Divine-Language is the Translation in English-form of the Sanskrit-word DEVA-BHASHA... Godly Language or Divine-Language....

By saying so... it means...

(a) It is the Language CREATED BY GOD... while the Non-Deva-Bhashas are considered... Man-made.

(b) It is the spoken Language in the Deva-lokas like Indra-Lokam, Vaikuntam and Kailasam

(c) It is the Language APPROVED / RECOGNISED / ACKNOWLEDGED / AUTHENTICATED / SANCTIFIED Language for recitation of Vedas and Sthothras in Temples and Homes. ( All the Non-Tamilians recite during poojas at their Homes only in Sanskrit... whereas Tamilians recite in Tamil also along with or without Sanskrit)

Bhagawatham in Sanskrit... says that Krishna declared THOUSANDS OF YEARS IN ADVANCE that His devotees will take birth at so and so regions of River-banks of Tamilnadu...

... and will propogate Devotional-spirit amongst the people... in "DEVA-BHASHA"..

...whereas all those devotees so named Aazhwaars... sang in Tamil...

.. and spread the Devotional-spirit amongst the people... through Tamil only.

... and further Tamil has been RECOGNISED as Deva-Bhasha during their Lifetime

.. and since so authorised by the Learned as well as the Kings of those days...was recited in all the Vishnu-Temples..

.. which practice continues even now ... all over the world in the temples conducted. by the Ramanuja-disciples... including those in USA.

... not only at par ...but also ... in preference to Sanskrit- Vedas.

Nammaazhwaar says...in Thiruvaaymozhi

"¾ý-¦º¡øÄ¡ø" ¾¡ý ¾ý¨Éì ¸£÷ò¾¢ò¾ Á¡Âý
±ý Óý¦º¡øÖõ ã×ÕÅ¡õ Ó¾øŧÉ

("THAN-SOLLAAL" THAAN THANNAI-K-KEERTHTHITHTHA MAAYAN
YEN MUN SOLLUM MOOVURUVAAM MUDHALVANAE)

... which means... God gave him these words... IN TAMIL..... "Than-Sol"

Ramanujacharya proved by several Sanskrit-quotations that in Kaliyuga, Tamil also is the parallel Deva-Bhasha conversed by Devas in all their Lokas.
[/tscii:a7ce70da3b]

[r_kk]

[ Divine-Language is the Translation in English-form of the Sanskrit-word DEVA-BHASHA... Godly Language or Divine-Language....

By saying so... it means...

(a) It is the Language CREATED BY GOD... while the Non-Deva-Bhashas are considered... Man-made.

(b) It is the spoken Language in the Deva-lokas like Indra-Lokam, Vaikuntam and Kailasam

(c) It is the Language APPROVED / RECOGNISED / ACKNOWLEDGED / AUTHENTICATED / SANCTIFIED Language for recitation of Vedas and Sthothras in Temples and Homes. ( All the Non-Tamilians recite during poojas at their Homes only in Sanskrit... whereas Tamilians recite in Tamil also along with or without Sanskrit)

... which means... God gave him these words... IN TAMIL..... "Than-Sol"

Ramanujacharya proved by several Sanskrit-quotations that in Kaliyuga, Tamil also is the parallel Deva-Bhasha conversed by Devas in all their Lokas

Dear Sudhaam sir,
Through your writtings, you are again and again proving that you are living in a totally different world...

I am shocked to know that Tamil is one of the langauage spoken in mythical world too... Still I am confused why many people around the our real world do not understand even a single word of Tamil?

Please note that this is part of history section and languages can be discussed either it is ancient or recent based on historical proofs, not like God-made or Man-made using stories as proofs.

For Arab's arabic is the holy language, For Isrelites, Hebrew is the holy language and for a remote aftrican/brazil tribes thir own langauage (lo lo...) might be a diving language. These kind of human assumptions are just self proudness. After all, the concept of God was made by devil mind of human out of fear.

[Idiappam]

Uncle Sudhamaa said:

(c) It is the Language APPROVED / RECOGNISED / ACKNOWLEDGED / AUTHENTICATED / SANCTIFIED Language for recitation of Vedas and Sthothras in Temples and Homes. ( All the Non-Tamilians recite during poojas at their Homes only in Sanskrit... whereas Tamilians recite in Tamil also along with or without Sanskrit)

Who "APPROVED / RECOGNISED / ACKNOWLEDGED / AUTHENTICATED / SANCTIFIED Language for recitation of Vedas and Sthothras in Temples and Homes"??

So Tamil and Sanksrit are in.... What happens when one Sings a Bengali Bajan? Or a Telegu Kirthana of of Thiagaraja?? They are a waste??

[Idiappam]

Please note that Tamil is not a God-created langauge. It is not a Deva-bhasha. It is a Human-Language. It is a humane language as well. It evolved from simple sounds, mono-syllabic, to a complete language a long time ago. It is a natural-language. Not created artificially, like Sanskrit, by man to fool another man!

[Idiappam]

The Seven Avaiyaars
First Avaiyar - 2nd Century CE. During Athigamaan's time.
2nd Avaiyar - Angavai/Sangavai period
3rd Avaiyar - 8th Century CE. Ceramaan PermAn time.
4th Avaiyar - 12th Century CE. During Kambar's time.
5th Avaiyar - 14th Century CE. ARivaik kural
6th Avaiyar - 16th Century CE. Aathichoodi, kondrai venthan, nalvazhi, moothurai etc.
7th Avaiyar - 17th Century CE.

Ref: Tamil Ilakkiya Varalaaru - G Devaneya Pavanar.

[viggop]

Idiappam Sir,
Aathichoodi, kondrai venthan, nalvazhi, moothurai etc. were composed in the 16th century? this is surprising.I thought they were composed during Sangam times by auvvaiyar.

For me, Languages are just a tool to reach God.I'll use any language to reach God(tamil,sanskrit,english translations,etc) :-)

[HindustaniLadka]

--Deleted by Moderator---

Warned not to make personal attacks for the last time.

[F.S.Gandhi vandayar]

Could you please give the root of anbu (love) is it something related to identify with? (I am not asking again the root of which came first or second...but the root word). Thanks a lot.

Dear Pradeep, :)

"Anbu" came from the root 'An' at the beginning 'suttu oli' and means 'Near' and created the words Annai-Very close to a son, Anai- Embrace, Anaiththu- make it one / make closer, Anmai-Arukil (near) etc.

When you have 'Anbu' it will burst out all barriers like ego,caste,language,region & nation and the person contains it will run to help others.

This is beautifully notified by Mr.Idiappam as an incident and as "Anbe sivam" concept.

"Anbirkum Undo? Adaikuntazh" - is valluvam.

"Anbudaiyar enbum Undayar Pirarku" - Persons with 'Anbu' shall give their bone and soul to others.

People should Keep this in mind. You asked what is the use of history and claiming which one first which one second is useless.

I completely agree with that.

But When some statements made like,"Sankrit is Deva Basha-Tamil is Neesa Basha,Telugu is Neechalu Basha, Theendamai Shemakaramanathu (Untouchability is good), Sankrit should not be learnt by Sutras and women and the same is used with modern wordings like Sanskrit is the mother of Indian heritage and languages and due to this Why this Hidden supremacy induced ? what is what ? Why are they saying this ? Why the separate heritage and motherliness of tamil heritage not addressed ?- type of questions are induced naturally in our mind and to seek answers we have to get into the history to examine our position.

The true indianness I feel is there in tamil. I won't say sanskrit does not contain indianness. Its heritage also contains parities. If this parities getting boasted as sanskrit heritage then certainly we have to fight it or not ? tell me. And if India follows suppressing attitude towards other languages and their heritage we have to fight it or not ?

That is the basic, I want to say, always contains in my postings and never spreading of hatred towards sanskrit praising people.

I hope that you will try to understand my position.

f.s.gandhi

[pradheep]

But When some statements made like,"Sankrit is Deva Basha-Tamil is Neesa Basha,Telugu is Neechalu Basha, Theendamai ..................and to seek answers we have to get into the history to examine our position.

Dear Gandhi
I understand your emotions. I used to debate with so called "Brahmin" people and make them understand that they have no qualities of Brahmin as codified by vedas, especially Gita. But that does not prevent me from using Veda for my personal life because I always seek truth. I understand that the Truth of vedic knowledge has been misunderstood over years. The word Guyha or secret is literally taken instead of the intended meaning. I understand these by experimenting Gita. Like a professional scientist I experiment, anlayse and then draw inference. So I practised whatever is said in Gita over years I found the truth revealed in it andthe intended meaning of the words.

I have gone only a handful of that and what i do not know is ulagaluvu of those words. But asthe saying goes "oru paanaikku soru oru padam" , by examining a few I understand the whole theme of the spiritual scriptures.

I was discussing about your wonderful posts about the "one-ness" of words in different languages. we are both interested because of our four year old son. He is fluent in malayalam (mother tongue) and we made him Tamil because we know the richness and beauty of it. Of course beign in USA, he is fluent in English and now getting good at Hindi because of many North Indian friends and alos because we want to him learn sanskrit, though it is taught luckily in his own school from grade one.

This summer vaccation my wife is begining with japanese with our son and that is how I mentioned about your post in FH. she said she is interested to look for tamil roots in japanese.

sorry for the diversion...the point I am conveying is that just because some people has misused the system we cannot trash it and miss the knowledge.

I understand that showing the one-ness of 'Truth" in the two languages we can reap the benefits out of it instead of spewing hatred.

[Idiappam]

Sir Pradeep said:

I was discussing about your wonderful posts about the "one-ness" of words in different languages. we are both interested because of our four year old son. He is fluent in malayalam (mother tongue) and we made him Tamil because we know the richness and beauty of it. Of course beign in USA, he is fluent in English and now getting good at Hindi because of many North Indian friends and alos because we want to him learn sanskrit,

Brilliant boy! Very unlike his father! :evil: :evil: :lol:

[Sudhaama]

Dear Mr. "r_kk"

// "Sudhaama":-- Divine-Language is the Translation in English-form of the Sanskrit-word DEVA-BHASHA... Godly Language or Divine- Language.... (c) It is the Language APPROVED / RECOGNISED / ACKNOWLEDGED / AUTHENTICATED / SANCTIFIED Language for recitation of Vedas and Sthothras in Temples and Homes. ( All the Non-Tamilians recite during poojas at their Homes only in Sanskrit... whereas Tamilians recite in Tamil also along with or without Sanskrit) //

My intention is not to denigrate any Language... nor I possess such a Sick-Thought, I being interested in not only Indian but also Global Linguistics and Culture. You might have already noticed... in my several postings in different threads for the past more than three years that I am all along speaking in ONE VOICE... defending in favour of broad outlook on all the Languages... National and International too... including the Tribal-ones. No Language is Inferior or Superior to any other One..... I never mean so.

Since I believe that each and every Language has got its own unique Worth and Value... even Great on its own... in one or the other aspect.

I have not deviated from that Healthy-stand... even while I say that Tamil also is the so called Divine-Language.

In fact I did not like to elaborate so, at the outset... but a brief-mention that Tamil also is Divine at par with Sanskrit, the so called Deva-Bhasha (meaning Divine-Language)...

.. I purposively avoided to touch the cross-section of the truth.... since it is a controversial and unpalatable factor in the broad universal society.

But RELUCTANTLY I had to elaborate, in response to Mr. Idiappam's seeking clarification.

My elaboration put forth here are based on the HISTORICAL-COUNTER- ARGUMENTS in response to some Sanskrit Fanatics during the yester-years... who seriously denigrated the Tamil-Language mocking at it as the Tribal-dialect unworthy to be considered as a Language... leaving apart its Qualification for recitation at Temples and Homes. While Sanskrit alone was considered as Qualified for the purpose in any Hindu-Temple.

And so in DEFENSE on Tamil... whatever points were put forth ... especialy during Ramanujacharya's period who introduced Tamil-Divya-prabhanda Recitations at par with Sanskrit Veda-chantings in Temples .... confronting all sorts of opposition.....

...I have presented here to show my Friends how the History has UNDULY TORTURED this Great Language.

.. despite the Large-Hearted Tamil Gospel... "YAADHUM - OORAE ... YAAVARUM-KAELHIR." ... healthy spirit of Tamilians all along.... propagating the Universal-brotherhood Spirit

// Dear Sudhaam sir,...Through your writtings, you are again and again proving that you are living in a totally different world //

Yes... Yes Yes... You are CORRECT...

I am living In that different World... of "YAADHUM- OORAE- YAAHARUM- KAELHIR" Unioversal Mankind Spirit.

//I am shocked to know that Tamil is one of the langauage spoken in mythical world too...//

If you think over deeply... You can know the True-sense behind... based on REALITY.

// Still I am confused why many people around the our real world do not understand even a single word of Tamil?//

That is because We the Tamilians have lead it so.... Yes the Tamilians are the Culprits.... especially because of the Lack of Unity amongst themselves.... long past and the present too...

..on which our Great Auvaiyar and such other Seers had struggled a lot to convince and succeed.

Best Example... Chera, Choazha, Pandiya... THREE DIFFERENT Kingdoms amongst One Broad-Society adhering to a Single Unique and Uniform Culture...

Such parochial Self-centered Divisions amongst the Royal-Brethren

...Nowhere else in India... or even in the annals of World-History.

.. lagging behind on their Ancient Tradition of Exemplary Indian- Heritage of High-Universal-Spirit

// Please note that this is part of history section and languages can be discussed either it is ancient or recent based on historical proofs, not like God-made Man-made using stories as proofs.//

Whether You relish or not... I am not presenting here any Fallacies nor Fictions...

... but the various sorts of Historical-Trend in India... as how the then Society had conducted themselves... some suicidal too, even to their detriment...

...which was efficiently countered time to time by our Great-Indians... so as to maintain the Moral-Balance of the Social-Ethics... more relevant to Indian-Culture...based on Reality.

// For Arab's arabic is the holy language, For Isrelites, Hebrew is the holy language and for a remote aftrican/brazil tribes thir own langauage (lo lo...) might be a diving language...//

Yes. please... Here the point is the comparitive analysis just between one Language heightened in the past, as Deva-Bhasha and another Classical-Language as Neecha-Bhasha of fit for Tribals.
And Nothing beyond.

//After all, the concept of God was made by devil mind of human out of fear.//

Here I strongly differ with you... Except in India (so called Lemuria)...The concept of God emanated all over the World out of Fear-Complex...

... during the primary stage of Mankind elsewhere in the Globe.

.. especially noticing the Thunderstorms and Lightnings, apart from the Natural-Calamities of Nature...

Whereas it was those Tribal-indians... who treated GOD WITH LOVE...

... who first ensourced the Art of Prayer... as a mark of Gratitude...

.. towards the Super-Human-Power ... whose co-operation ALSO was felt Inevitable for their Successful and Peaceful- Livelihood

[pradheep]

Brilliant boy! Very unlike his father!

Dear Idiappam
Thank you for praising me marrying a brilliant wife but I am sad that you let down my mom, because intelligence comes from the maternal side.

[Ilavenil]

Brilliant boy! Very unlike his father! intelligence comes from the maternal side.

:!: :!: :?: :?:

[pradheep]

Illavenil :!: :!: :?: :?:

:?: :?:

[Badri]

Achacho! Ippadi post increase panrathellam nalla illa!!

Romba confusionaa iruntha, PM panni kettukonga!

[solomon]

* deleted *

[Idiappam]

Solomon, you have post the same lengthy text, that is of no real use in many threads, including this one. See:

http://forumhub.mayyam.com/hub/viewtopic.php?p=158298#158298
http://forumhub.mayyam.com/hub/viewtopic.php?p=158280#158280

That is unethical. Anyone replying to you have to post the same in 3 threads. I have told you not to go to such mischief. The same, tactics were used by one Arunmoli, an ardent Vedic, in the previous Hub.

Please don't waste space!

Moderators, can you remove the duplicate and triplicate posts of Solomon in the above threads. Thanks.

[Vini Vidi Vici]

Hi!

Me just looking for entertainment got stuck here by Idiappam. There is a very good show going on here, and I hope I may stay here for a while and enjoy the Indian heritages - The Post Modern and The Back to the bottom fraction'

Good work and and good laughing, nallaa idikkum appam.

[hehehewalrus]

Yes Yes... I was brought from Heaven ...by one Walrus chanting the Manthra "hehe"...

So I am the only person here who can identify another heavenly-birth... "hehewalrus", my companion.

A Great Secret !!!...You all will go to Moksha by chanting this Holy Manthra.

That holy- manthra is "hehe"... Oh All my dear Friends join with me to chant... hehe... hehe... hehe... hehe.... constantly

... until the Great Deva... "hehewalrus" arrives... He will take us to Moksha .. the Bliss.

Sudhamaji,
You have revealed your chuppa Rustom quality again. I am happy to find you here(i rarely visit this section) :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

I was wondering why you dont visit the Miscellaneous section..pls stop by and participate in a few threads, i am missing your posts :)

[Idiappam]

Thank you Walrus, for offtering to take Uncle Sudhaama away. Take good care of him! I will visit him occasionally there. Bye, Hehe, Bye Uncle! :cry: :cry:

[Sudhaama]

My Dear Companion Mr. hehe

I am happy ... you have come here to take me to Moksha... the Fourth world, Bliss...

But you know, I have my Old-Companion with me... who is advising me inconsistently and self-contradictorily....... neither permitting me to leave him nor allowing me to be with him...

His name is Idi-Aappar... a Staunch Sivan-Adiyaar.... but like other Sivan-Adiyaars You cannot find him chanting ...Siva Siva...Siva... but he chants only... Idi Idi Idi.

Why his Name is Idi-Aappar?... Because he is the direct Disciple of Appar-perumaan... who was so pleased with him to Crown him with a Beautiful Title as Aappar (which means ... the Disciple of Appar-perumaan, the Great Saiva-Kuravar / Naayanmaar)...

.But why.... Idi Idi Idi-Manthram he chants?...

Because my Companion Srilasree Idi-Aappar-peruman humbly follows the sacred footpath of his Guru Appar in a better way .

You know Appar-swami used to always carry One Uzhavaarappadai- tool on his Shoulders.

Following the great Gurus example in a better manner, our Swamiji Idi-Aappar carries always one "ULAKKAI" on his shoulders.

On seeing the Sivan- adiyaars ...the first action from Swami Appar used to be his Invitation for Food.

Whereas my great Companion Idi-aappar is far different...

Whenever anybody approaches my Aappar... the Guest will receive a hit first as an "Idi" on head with his Ulakkai always ready on hand..

That is why some people call him as IDIYAAR.

Every time you receive his "Idi"... he expects you to laugh.... Idi Idi Idi... Please Try if you can.

And one Secret... whenever he hits others... Idi... he anticipates to receive an Aappam for himself... from Siva-lokam.

In brief ... "IDI"... for the Guest.... fetches... AAPPAM... for the Host.

Well I am happy to be with this great companion... Idiyaar.. (Don't say Adiyaar, he wont like it)

But one confusion!!!... he often tells, that he will take me... either to Hell or Heaven... Why Not Specific?.

I told him ... I have already seen and lived in both... How? and Where?

Hell and Heaven on Earth... both of which I am already well-experienced here itself.

Some people make Heaven out of Hell ... while some others make even the Heaven as Hell.

I don't kinow which other Hell or Heaven my Great Idiyaar is going to take me.... I am waiting for him.

So... my Dear Mr hehe...I will come with you to Moksha later.

[F.S.Gandhi vandayar]

Mr.Pradeep wrote:


I understand your emotions. I used to debate with so called "Brahmin" people and make them understand that they have no qualities of Brahmin as codified by vedas, especially Gita. But that does not prevent me from using Veda for my personal life because I always seek truth.

Mr.Pradeep, :!:

You are able to read Vedhas. You & I can assess them : No barrier because we live in cosmopolitan atmosphere. Think about the masses in India. For the past 1500 years they were not allowed to read Vedhas / Bhagavatgita / Manusmirithi.

Atleast now in modern era we have to allow them to read Vedhas.This can be achieved through recognizing all people whoever read vedhas can become as archakas irrespective of castes. If this is done the ultimate aim of uniqueness / oneness, as you specified, in people can be achieved. The great Inthuism also will get respect among humanitarians with its enoumous stuff it has already in spirituality.

f.s.gandhi

[F.S.Gandhi vandayar]

Thiru Sudhaama wrote,


You know Appar-swami used to always carry One Uzhavaarappadai- tool on his Shoulders.

Sudhaama excellently has explained about 'Idiappam' a stanch pulverized writter 8) and our kind friend :?: in the hub. Without him variety in our postings could not been delivered out. :!:

We should all encourage him to post continuoulsy. :!:

On thinking Idiappam 'Puratchi Kavigner' Bharathidasan's 'OODAPPAR YAVARUM UDAYAPPAR AAKIVITTAL OPPAPPARAAVAR'- lines comes into my mind.

Let us not call him udayappar but our 'Ithayappar' and ofcourse 'Idiappar'. :lol:

f.s.gandhi

[Idiappam]

Uncle Sudhamaa said:

His name is Idi-Aappar... a Staunch Sivan-Adiyaar.... but like other Sivan-Adiyaars You cannot find him chanting ...Siva Siva...Siva... but he chants only... Idi Idi Idi.
That was good Uncle ! Thank you Mr Gandhi :lol: :lol:

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ÌÊÅ¢ðÎì ÌÊÅóÐ ¦À¡Ê¨ÅìÌõ ż¡øÄ÷
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-- Idiappam

[Sudhaama]

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[Raghu]

My Dear Companion Mr. hehe

I am happy ... you have come here to take me to Moksha... the Fourth world, Bliss...

But you know, I have my Old-Companion with me... who is advising me inconsistently and self-contradictorily....... neither permitting me to leave him nor allowing me to be with him...


Dear Sudhama Sir :rotfl: ,:rotfl: , Pineetengha ponga, I was feeling very upset today, but you have made me laugh loud, the whole of the office was stunned at my loud laughter, keep it up sir

intha genmankaluku athunga mozhiyil sonatha athuungaluku puriyum :rotfl:

[Idiappam]

Raghu, what use is your post above. It took ten pushes down my scroll mouse to get to the end just to see you expressing your silly reaction to Uncle Sudhamaa's post.

Don't waste space.

Moderators can you delete Raghu's post above, and my response too.

[Raghu]

Don't waste space.



Dear Idiappam

that is exactly what I am saying to you, :banghead: pls don't waste forumhub space, :banghead: kindly leave

Moderators, Idiappam sir feels his presence is wasting Hub's space , please remove him(or rather his IP address) from the hub's members list :lol: :lol: :rotfl: :rotfl:

[Sudhaama]

"HUMOUR ONLY"... Intended.

Dear Mr. Raghu,

Mr. hehewalrus and Mr. Idiappam ... had jocularly commented on me... for which I too reciprocatively replied to them...

... in the same light-vein... jocularly.... (in my usual-way of the Writer Kalki Style... WITHOUT DENIGRATING OR HURTING ANYBODY )

Such interventions ... or light diversions.. are necessary for a broad-forum like this... otherwise, there will be no difference between a Class-room-Lecture and this Forum of Global-Discussion....

... of multi-talented Dignitaries of multi-faceted attitudes too.

This is the Reality of Life. Please remember... God created his own Enemy and made Puranam Why ?

Please DON'T OVERSTRETCH the matter. You have to understand the Back-ground... in its true perspective ...

...and proceed further in the healthy angle...

... WITHOUT DENIGRATING ANYBODY OR ANY FAITH...

[Raghu]

Dear Sudhama sir

Point taken, and I am sorry, but please remember that, i have NEVER ever OR INTENDED to degrade any FAITHS, I am very BROAD minded and Sudhama SIR you know very well ONE of IMMEDIATE family member is of OTHER faith than HINDUSIM

Pls reply to my PM sudhama sir, thank you

[Sudhaama]

Mr. Raghu,

Here I mean... Mr. Idiappam's Faith , Belief, Principles and Outlook are far dfferent from yours... as we have so far observed from his postings... Similarly some others too...

Then Simply because the Gentleman on the other side of your Table does not fall in line with you... nor accepts your Thoughts and Beliefs...

...Will you Dislike him / her... or Can you ask him to Quit ?

You know Hundreds of Non-Indian Friends... are far different from me by their Faiths and Beliefs ...

.. some of whom even mock at the so called Hinduism... as also India... and some others are Atheists....knowingly my Faiths and Beliefs are Far-Contrary...

...while they are affectionate coupled with high regard towards me.

Simply because their personal Faiths and Beliefs are radically Topsy-Turvy.. with mine....

... Do you advise me to Discord their Whole-hearted Love of Friendship...?

I remind You Once again... please reply , Why God created His own Enemies and made Puranas?

[Vini Vidi Vici]

I remind You Once again... please reply , Why God created His own Enemies and made Puranas?
Dear Idiappam,
though I am not and most probably will not be Raghu, I am free to make my own thoughts about the above question.
If there are no foes, no opponents then he'll feel boring and he have to ache his devotees. He (the God) is a kind of dictator (if not the dictator) and prefers feudalism. You enter into commitments through commandments.
What do you say?

[Idiappam]

Dear ViniVidiVici,

It is too early for me to answer Uncle Sudhamaa's question.

We have all evidence that God created all his enemies, the devils and destroyed them. And He, the Great God, wrote them down himself in those puranas that has been handed down to us through the many generations, word for word intact, without corruption - copies of which have eventually reached the hands of Uncle Sudhaama and Blue-Boy Raghu.

And Uncle with the boy, they are ever willing to be expert witnesses for God, if ever I put Him on the stand for some answers.

The main problem being that I am quiet a level-headed person - in all fairness to the enemies that God created and killed, without giving them, devils, some chance to write something that can be used for at least as some form of mitigation for themselves, I have to call the devil himself to come forward to say something, now.

God has spoken all the words. Let's hear the Devil.

What do you say, ViniVidiVici?

[Vini Vidi Vici]

God has spoken all the words. Let's hear the Devil.

What do you say, ViniVidiVici?

That the God has spoken all the words the devil has nothing to say. It is not gentleman like of god not to leave the devil even a single word. But now or perhaps a bit later all the devils will come to the hub and write their fingers wound as they can not speak a single word because, once again, the god has spoken all the words.

I have still a question though. How many words were God capable of? Did anyone take the trouble and counted all the words?

[Idiappam]

I have still a question though. How many words were God capable of?

Many, especially in India! He gave them all for us, that we shall read them and chant them, for any little wants and needs that we require from him, no matter how selfish they be!

God gave us his words! But never kept any!

[suressh]

:)

dear mr. idiyappam,

after reading your small poem, i have started liking your posts. i once again went through your posts in some other threads too. good job... :thumbsup:

and I AM SORRY i had scoulded you sometime back without understanding your intention. ( but i think we had some other person in the same id in our old hub highly contradicting your views. please correct me if i am wrong ).

hope you would write more poems.

dear mr. sudamma,

atlast i understood one of your poems answering idiyappam. i should congratulate myself... :D good one.

:)

[Raghu]

Annan Idiapam avarghale,

Naan 'Blue-boy' illengo, naa yellowish boy :wink:

[Badri]

Annan Idiapam avarghale,

Naan 'Blue-boy' illengo, naa yellowish boy :wink:

Yenappa? Unakku enna, Jaundice aa? :wink:

[Raghu]

Engal annan badri avarghale

enna nakkala :twisted: :lol:

[Vini Vidi Vici]

Annan Idiapam avarghale,

Naan 'Blue-boy' illengo, naa yellowish boy :wink:

Yenappa? Unakku enna, Jaundice aa? :wink:

:rotfl: :thumbsup:

Sorry yellow fever, but nothing can topple this. If I am honest then there should be a thread somewhere to preserve such hub specific deliveries and scores.

[Idiappam]

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---- Idiappam

[Idiappam]

dear mr. idiyappam,
after reading your small poem, i have started liking your posts. i once again went through your posts in some other threads too. good job... :thumbsup:

and I AM SORRY i had scoulded you sometime back without understanding your intention. ( but i think we had some other person in the same id in our old hub highly contradicting your views. please correct me if i am wrong ).

hope you would write more poems. :)

I don't remember any scolding from you anytime. Ha, some idiot must have got them. Deserve it he!.

More poems at the Tamil Section! One above for Uncle. Thambi Raghu, do you want a song?

[Sudhaama]

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"Sudhaama"

// Å¢¨¼ÂÅý «Ê¡÷ ¾¢Õ þÊ¡ôÀ÷... ±ý¨É ¿£Å¢÷ «È¢Â£§Ã¡? ¦¿¡ó§¾§É??

Idiappam"

// ¦¿¡óÐÆÄ §Åñ¼¡õ þÐ ..... Å¢ó¨¾ÀÄ ¸¡ðÎ - Å¢Êø
¾ó¾½ò¾¡ó ¾ó¾½ò¾¡ó ¾ó¾½ò¾¡ó À¡ðÎ!//

Dear Mr. Idiappam,

Ah ! What a Nice Tamil-Poem in simple Words.... by Mr. Idiappam.!!!

Since this sort of Poetical-conversation... that too in Tamil... especially deviating from the main Topic... is out of Scope here...

... To-day I have opened an EXCLUSIVE THREAD under another relevant Forum-Section named POEMS..

... with the Thread-Title as :--- CHANDHA-k-KAVI-MAEDAI..

... wherein I have copied the above and Pasted up.

Furtheron I will reply to these Poems there.

So these Tamil-POEM-presentations here may be DELETED.

Thanks Mr Idiappam.
[/tscii:686d3ad122]

[Badri]

Idiappam!!!

:clap: :clap:

Cha, enakku intha maathiri ezhutha varavillayennu irukku!!

[Raghu]

Thambi Raghu, do you want a song?

AnNan Idiappam avargahale

Intha Paata Konjam enchance panni Tamil Songs section-la post panungappa panunga

AnNe anNe Idi anne nama forum nalla forum ippo romba ketupoichanna
Sonna vekakedu solavitaal maanakedu...

AnNe anNe .Idi anne..

Sudhama Sir

I am sorry this will be my last irrelevant post here, pls accept my appologies :D

thanks

[Sudhaama]

Dear Mr."Raghu"

// Intha Paata Konjam enchance panni Tamil Songs section-la post panungappa panunga??//

I have already COPIED AND POSTED these Tamil-Poems in Poem-Section... in a New Thread I opened for this purpose...named...

... CHANDHA-k-KAVI-MAEDAI...

Please see my Reply hereabove to Mr. Idiappam.

[Idiappam]

Idiappam!!!

:clap: :clap:

Cha, enakku intha maathiri ezhutha varavillayennu irukku!!

Thank you Badri. See, now Tamil is not only 'this and that' they boast of. It is not 'that and this' they talk ill of.

Beside all, Tamil is a fun language. Be careful, you indulge in it - you are enslaved by it. Many non-Tamils are enslaved too - White-men inclusive!

I am not an expert poet. But I did write some a long time ago - love bits especially - to some girlfriends I had. None of them understood any, except one who pretended to. She is no longer my girlfriend now! 'sigh sigh'!

Vazhga Pallaandu!

[suressh]

:)

dear mr. idiappam

// I don't remember any scolding from you anytime. Ha, some idiot must have got them. Deserve it he!. //

but i dont forget who i scold. :lol: since i always moan after scolding or getting scolded.

anyway... it is really nice to see your postings and poem. can you give me the link of your other poems ? i would love to read it...

:)

[Idiappam]

:)
dear mr. idiappam
anyway... it is really nice to see your postings and poem. can you give me the link of your other poems ? i would love to read it... :)

I don't have any poems posted anywhere! All my bits were given out on paper, or now via SMS! I shall post them in the poetry section as if recollect them before they fade!

[Idiappam]

:)
dear mr. idiappam
anyway... it is really nice to see your postings and poem. can you give me the link of your other poems ? i would love to read it... :)

I don't have any poems posted anywhere! All my bits were given out on paper, or now via SMS! I shall post them in the poetry section as if recollect them before they fade!

[Sudhaama]

Significance of "Shashti-abdha-poorthi" at 60th, "Bheemaratha-Santhi" at 70th,

... and "Sathabhishekam" at 80th BIRTH-ANNIVERSARIES. :--

http://forumhub.mayyam.com/hub/viewtopic.php?p=221017#221017

[Sudhaama]

--- Off topic ----, don't know where to post this query .
Can the gayathri mantra be recited by ladies also ? As my husband is not much into religious rituals, I have been reciting this over the past few years, for general well-being of the family .
But recently read only males should recite, not the women folk. Is this true ? If so, why ?

Yes... Ladies too can chant Gayathri-Manthram... provided they are able to be clean and free from ...Andha- moonrhu- Naatkalh....

... ensuring... SUDDHAM... SUCHI... PAAVANAM ... the pre-requisite Stipulations for Manthra-chanting.

In the normal day-to-day Life,, Ladies do not perform any such holy-manthra chanting ...

... NOT BECAUSE LADIES ARE UNFIT... OR UNQUALIFIED... but because of Practical considerations

In all the Rituals, this Manthra is chanted repeatedly at every stage as well as prior to any other Manthras. .. also.

...as well as the part of Pranayamam... the Yogic-Exercise..... common for any Spiritual -Aspirant.

Out of all the Manthras, "Gayathri-Manthram" is deemed as the GREATEST and the HOLIEST... Independantly as well as Auxiliary.

... rendering the Maximum efficacy individually as also to strengthen any other Manthra chanted alongwith... or following subsequently.

... rather the Gayathri-manthra is the OXYGEN alongwith other Manthras HYDROGEN.

[Shoba]

Significance of "Shashti-abdha-poorthi" at 60th, "Bheemaratha-Santhi" at 70th,

... and "Sathabhishekam" at 80th BIRTH-ANNIVERSARIES. :--

http://forumhub.mayyam.com/hub/viewtopic.php?p=221017#221017

Dear Sudhaama,

Thanks for your views on Shataabhishegam. I hope to read something on Kanakaabhishegam from your goodself.

Are there particular references made in our scriptures?

Regards,
Shoba

[Sudhaama]

[tscii:d1db8f0a85]
Dear Ms. Shoba

// Dear Sudhaama,...Thanks for your views on Shataabhishegam. I hope to read something on Kanakaabhishegam from your goodself. Are there particular references made in our scriptures?//

VIEWS?... My VIEWS !!... Not at all my own View... My dear Madam

I am not such a Scholar qualified enough to comment or render any personal opinion on this Noble-Topic of Social-Code of conduct coupled with Moral-science and Hearty-Culture

As much as you and others here, are curious to know and add up to your General-Knowledge by elliciting the due authentic Answers from any well-knowledged persons, Elders, Scholars and such other reliable Individuals, alongside the Lectures, Books etc ... .

on any Mystery or Points of Interest or Matter of Doubts...

... I too was terribly curious and anxious and so boldly used to ask Questions, right from my age of Five . And thus gained a lot of rich Life-Knowledge... during the past about 70 years.

Such a Rare-Treasure of General-Knowledge, I am sharing with you all my dear Friends here

.. with the Healthy spirit of Hearty-Intention. ”Yaan petra Inba-p-Payan Iv-Vaiyam peruha!!!”

.. I am just pouring them out, like a Tape-Recorder Nothing more nor beyond nor different from what I learnt from Scholars and Books authentically.

If anybody else too want to share with me or supplement to my knowledge... Yes, Welcome.. I will be happy to learn more now too even at my present age of Senior stage

Welcome. Let us all be Happy !!!... by means of Healthy Knowledge on Life..

KANAKA- ABHISHEKAM

Kanakam means Gold. Kanaka- Abhishekam means the so called “Holy-bath”.. with Golden-petals... performed by the Subordinates , Juniors, Disciples, Admirers and Devotees...

... to any Individual deemed in their opinion as deserving for high Esteem or Obeisance...

So to say for the revered Mahans, Acharyas (Seers), High-Scholars, Kings and any such greatly respectful persons, it is conducted as a Gesture of Great-Honour, as per Indian ancient Custom and Culture.

There is no hard and fast Rule nor a Stipulation, that it must be conducted for this X or that Y person...

... nor so ordained as the part of any Ritual but only as per the Individual or group of peoples wish and affordability.

In rich families, the Children and Grand-children, used to perform Kanaka-Abhishekam to their Seniors on the occasions of their Birth-Anniversaries at 60, 70, 80, or 100 Similarly to their Acharyas, Mahans, Kings and so on.

Such Golden-petals, after Abhishekam, used to be distributed amongst the Family-members and Relatives as a mark of Remenbrance, a Souvenir, as well as the Reminiscence of past Memorable celebrations

Some people used to attach it with the Photos or Picture of the Dignitary concerned. .. and pay their respects, remembering them all through their life, even after the departure of the regarded-person.

Since the Gold is deemed as the Embodiment of the Goddess Lakshmi in the metallic-form (according to Vedhas and Sasthras)

Abhishekam with Gold.. is considered to fetch the Divine-Grace of the Goddess of Wealth to the Dignitary so honoured

.. as also to those.. who dedicatedly perform their Moral-Duty of Gratitude, Recognition, and Honour.. to the Dignitaries from whom they were benefited in Life or feel happy to express their Hearty-Spirit of Devotion, by action

There is mention in our Sasthras... as well as the proof in Puranas and Indian- History too... as recorded in Stone-Wall- Carvings, Copper- plates of Kingdoms and Temples.

Such a Kanaka-Abhishekam was performed to Sri Kanchi-periyavar Nadamaadum-Dheywam, Sri Chandra-Sekhara-Sarawathi Swamihalh

.. twice during his life.. once on his SATHAABHISHEKAM at 80 as well as on his 100th .. Birth- Centenary occasion... POORNA-ABHISHEKAM
[/tscii:d1db8f0a85]

[Raghu]

dear sudhama sir,

pls reply to my PM :cry:

[Shoba]

[tscii]
[KANAKA- ABHISHEKAM

Kanakam means Gold. Kanaka- Abhishekam means the so called “Holy-bath”.. with Golden-petals... performed by the Subordinates , Juniors, Disciples, Admirers and Devotees...

... to any Individual deemed in their opinion as deserving for high Esteem or Obeisance...

So to say for the revered Mahans, Acharyas (Seers), High-Scholars, Kings and any such greatly respectful persons, it is conducted as a Gesture of Great-Honour, as per Indian ancient Custom and Culture.

There is no hard and fast Rule nor a Stipulation, that it must be conducted for this X or that Y person...

... nor so ordained as the part of any Ritual but only as per the Individual or group of peoples wish and affordability.

In rich families, the Children and Grand-children, used to perform Kanaka-Abhishekam to their Seniors on the occasions of their Birth-Anniversaries at 60, 70, 80, or 100 Similarly to their Acharyas, Mahans, Kings and so on.

Such Golden-petals, after Abhishekam, used to be distributed amongst the Family-members and Relatives as a mark of Remenbrance, a Souvenir, as well as the Reminiscence of past Memorable celebrations

Some people used to attach it with the Photos or Picture of the Dignitary concerned. .. and pay their respects, remembering them all through their life, even after the departure of the regarded-person.

Since the Gold is deemed as the Embodiment of the Goddess Lakshmi in the metallic-form (according to Vedhas and Sasthras)

Abhishekam with Gold.. is considered to fetch the Divine-Grace of the Goddess of Wealth to the Dignitary so honoured

.. as also to those.. who dedicatedly perform their Moral-Duty of Gratitude, Recognition, and Honour.. to the Dignitaries from whom they were benefited in Life or feel happy to express their Hearty-Spirit of Devotion, by action

There is mention in our Sasthras... as well as the proof in Puranas and Indian- History too... as recorded in Stone-Wall- Carvings, Copper- plates of Kingdoms and Temples.

Such a Kanaka-Abhishekam was performed to Sri Kanchi-periyavar Nadamaadum-Dheywam, Sri Chandra-Sekhara-Sarawathi Swamihalh

.. twice during his life.. once on his SATHAABHISHEKAM at 80 as well as on his 100th .. Birth- Centenary occasion... POORNA-ABHISHEKAM]

Dear Mr Sudhaama,

Thank you very much for your response.

You have mentioned Shaastraas-any reference, please?

I was actually doing a project on birthdays, and although it's over and done with, I still would like to know the references with regards to scriptures and such.

Please oblige, and thank you again!

Shoba

[Sudhaama]

// Dear Mr. Sudhaama,... Your explanation about the various stages and celebrations is excellent. It was quite useful and meaningful. Thank you very much. Amazing to note about the vision and systematic planning of our ancestors on how to lead one's life. //

Thanks for the Feedback... and for Your due healthy spirit.

// I also heard one more thing on Sadhabishekam that if somebody sees 1000s new moon in life... Is it so ?...Pls enlighten me on this // .

Yes....further, the word "SATHA" in Sanskrit has Two different meanings... One is Hundred... another meaning is... STABLE / Saaswatha (Sanskrit) / Nilaiththa(Tamil)...

You might have heard the Sasthris ... during the Marriage and such other Holy-Celebrations... blessing the Hero / Heroine of the Show... throwing Akshathai... and stating in Chorus... ..

"SATHA-MAANAM BHAVATHI... SATHAAYUH PURUSHAH DAEVAENDRIYAE PRATHI THISHTATHI."

In this, ... SATHA-MAANAM = Stable-Prosperity...

... then... SATHA-AAYUH = Hundred years Age.

[Sudhaama]

[tscii:d191462c30]
... PURATTAASI MONTH Significance ... Tamil-Culture

GOD - ONE IN ALL including NATURE :--- Concept of NAVARAATHRI KOLU.

ALL IN ONE GOD :--- Concept of Thirumalai VENKATESWARA ...


Veda clearly declares that GOD IS ONE ... But also indicates several other Gods in relation to One Supreme God ... And lays down basically Two Concepts of worshipping One God Supreme.

One way is ... ONE GOD IN ALL . Another way is ALL IN ONE GOD.

Such a Basic-Doctrine has been affirmed in the Bhagawad- Geetha-sloka .....

Yoa Maam pasyathi sarvathra, sarvamscha mayi pasyathi
Thasya Aham na pranasyaami sa cha mae na pranasyathi.

( For him, who sees Me as ONE IN ALL EVERYWHERE and also sees ALL WITHIN ME, I never part with him Nor he parts with Me )

All the Vedic acharyas have taken up both these concepts impartially but described the meaning according to their individual Philosophical school of approach ...

Out of these Two basis ...

Adhi Sankaracharya preferred the former choice as ... ONE Supreme GOD IN ALL other Gods

Whereas Ramanujacharya preferred the latter as ... ALL OTHER GODS within ONE Supreme GOD.

Tamilian- culture values both these concepts equally and so they celebrate taking the best advantage of both of them accordingly.

During “Navarathri” all the various forms of Gods, including Nature, are worshipped separately also alongside Narayana in different awatharas like Narasimha, Rama and Krishna.

Whereas Lord Venkateswara at Thirumalai-Hills is the UNIFIED FORM of ALL GODS within One shape as seen and described by Arjuna in Viswaroopa- seva

Pasyaami Dhaevaam Thava dhaeva dhaehae, Sarvaan thathaa Bootha-Visaesha sangaan,
Brahmaanham Easam Kamaalaasanastham Risheemscha sarvaan Uragaamscha Dhivyaan.

And further . as a proof of this fact The Moolavar Deity, Temple- system, and Shape etc. depict undoubtedly the Comnplex- form of all the main Vedic-Deities like Lakshmi, Narayana, Kali, Siva, and others ... within One God ... KRISHNA. ... How?

MAHALAKSHMI within VENKATESWARA / SRINIVASA .. prominently .. So ... ..

(1) Lord Venkateswara gets the Weekly Abhishekam unconventionally on the Godess-Day.. Fridays.

(2) Total Pushpaalankara Seva (Poolangi-seva) an Exclusive Female- deity's system of adoration, unlike any Male-God, on every Thursdays... Flowers the greatest Priority-decoration for Godesses and Womenfolk..

(3) Lord wears 18 yds Green-coloured Sari on important days.. which Darsanam is printed in the Pictures on sale. by TTD.

(4) During the most important month of Maargazhi.. VILWARCHANA only is performed, instead of Thulasi-archana during the rest of the year. Since Goddess Lakshmi resides in Vilwa-leaves as said in Veda Sree- Sooktham “Vrukshothi Vilwaha”.

(5) It is the only Deity in the whole world owning and wearing the Maximum content of Gold-Jewelleries... especially, the Types of Women,, the specific significance of a Female-deity.... Godess.

(6) One of His Popular Name is SRINIVASA meaning the “LAKSHMI’S ABODE” / One wherein LAKSHMI resides.

(7) The richest Hindu Temple in the World is this One because of the prominence of Goddess of Wealth leading in this shape..

(8) Out of Navagrahas.. CHANDRA-YANTHRAM has been placed underneath the Deity which custom is conventional only for Female Deities ... Devis / Godesses.

(9) Most MERCIFUL-DEITY as practically observed.. pardoning even the Worst- Sinner who surrenders... the Typical Quality of Mahalakshmi ... as declared in all the Vedic-Scriptures.... as well as in the Literatures too.

. To Continue.
[/tscii:d191462c30]

[Idiappam]

Sudhama said:

Veda clearly declares that GOD IS ONE ...

NO! Vedas did not say that. Vedic religion is polytheistic!

[Badri]

Sudhama said:

Veda clearly declares that GOD IS ONE ...

NO! Vedas did not say that. Vedic religion is polytheistic!

Idiappam: The same Vedas also declare that

"Ekam eva Adwiteeyam Brahma" meaning "There is only one God, not two!" and also clearly states that the "gods" we speak of are only devas, or demigods. Nowhere are they stated to be the Absolute, which is said to be only ONE without any contradictions. The Vedas have not said they are polytheistic. That is a latter day attribution! All the Upanishads clearly state that the ultimate reality is only one, and the many devas, including the Trimurti are only created, as much as man himself is.

[Idiappam]

Sudhama said:

Veda clearly declares that GOD IS ONE ...

NO! Vedas did not say that. Vedic religion is polytheistic!

Idiappam: The same Vedas also declare that

"Ekam eva Adwiteeyam Brahma" meaning "There is only one God, not two!"

Sorry Mr Badri! I can't locate that line "Ekam..." in any of the vedas. Can you give me the directions -- verse no etc...

Probably the line is not from the vedas but from Gita, Ramayana, or some from some later works like Ramanuja's!

[sivajayan]

Hinduism is polytheistic!

There is a god for creation. There is another god for destruction. And both the gods are distinct personalities.

And there had been nine reincarnations. They all are different. For ex. Rama and Krishna are not the same. Rama did not say enough or contribute enough to mankind so Krishna came. Am I wrong? How can a god go wrong? Perhaps because all are in one, the right and the wrong?
The monotheistic view came upon humankind only after Moses. But the origin of Moses seems to be Tut Masse or something similar and from Egypt.

[aravindhan]

Idiappam: The same Vedas also declare that "Ekam eva Adwiteeyam Brahma" meaning "There is only one God, not two!"

Sorry Mr Badri! I can't locate that line "Ekam..." in any of the vedas. Can you give me the directions -- verse no etc...

Probably the line is not from the vedas but from Gita, Ramayana, or some from some later works like Ramanuja's!

I think this is the verse that is being referred to (verse 46 of RV 1:164):
indraṃ mitraṃ varuṇamaghnimāhuratho divyaḥ sa suparṇo gharutmān |
ekaṃ sad viprā bahudhā vadantyaghniṃ yamaṃ mātariśvānamāhuḥ ||

The hymn itself is not one of the the easiest to understand in the Rgveda. Here is one translation:
http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/rigveda/rv01164.htm

I really do not know enough about the actual content of the vedas to comment on them, but from the bits I have read, it seems very difficult to make any sort of generalisation about the religion of the Rgveda. It was written over a period of time by many different people, and reflects a large number of individual, and often very different, religious perspectives and practices, ranging from the philosophical to the very ritualistic. This hymn seems to tend towards the former, which probably explains its monotheistic content.

[Badri]

Thanks Aravindan for bringing up another interesting reference!

but the one I was referring to is from the Chandogya Upanishad. (6.2.1)

I have pasted below a translation of some of the verses...

6.2.1. "In the beginning, dear boy, this world was Being--One only, without a second. To be sure, some say that in the beginning this world was only non-Being, one only without a second, and that from that non-Being Being was born.

2. "But, dear boy, how could this be?" he said, "how could Being be produced from non-Being? In the beginning there was Being alone, one only, without a second.

[aravindhan]

but the one I was referring to is from the Chandogya Upanishad. (6.2.1)
Is it really possible to use the upanishads to understand the religious practices described in the samhitas? They are separated by a good bit of time, and from what we know of the six + three darshanas, it is quite likely that the upanishads represented only one of the schools of religious belief that then existed.

[Sudhaama]

... "GOD IS ONE"... only ... as per Indian-Heritage

The Scope of this Thread is not Relgion & Philosophy nor the minute Intricacies of God as depicted in any Religious Scriptures.

But only on Indian-Heritage... relevant to Commonman... in India and Globally as well.

Since a controversy has been raised ... I have to briefly clarify on my statement...

.. as also JUSTIFY on my Point that Indian-Heritage means GOD ONE only ... conforming to authentic Scriptures

... similar to any other Religion in the Global-arena... including the other Great Religions of the World ... Christianity and Islam.

Vaedhas clearly state that GOD IS ONLY ONE ... and that He is the GOD-SUPREME...

You can mean Him or Identify Him... as you individually visualise ...according to your own Outlook...

... Either as Viswanatha... or Jagannaatha.. or Parameshwara... or Parandhaama... or any other such God or Godess form at your own Wish and Imagination..

... Such is the Primary-Statement.. Further Vaedhas and Upanishads clarify and elaborate as to...

.. whom it means as Supreme (which Controversial-aspect... I am not interested to enter into)..

But limit my clarifications upto the Primary aspect of God as per Indian-Scriptures.... as of Common-man's Interests and Outlook.

Purusha-sooktham.. is the most important part of Vedas.... wherein it is said... in the God's words...

"Vaedha ahamaetham Mahaantham Aadhithya-varnham thamasasthu-paarae
Sarvaanhi Roopaani Vichithya Dheeraha, Naamaani Krithvaa Abhivadhanyadhaasthae
Dhaatha purasthaadh yam Udhaajahaara Chakra-Pravidhvaan pradhisas-sathasraha
Tham aevam Vidhwaan Amritha Iha-Bhavathi, Na-Anya-Panthaa ayanaaya Vidhyathae...

Sa Brahma.. Sa Siva... Sa Indra ... Parama Swaraat....

... which means....

//Vaedha ahamaetham Mahaantham Aadhithya-varnham thamasasthu-paarae//

(You Man, the Seeker of Achievement on Earthly-Birth-) ... Know Me.. as the Only One Supreme Omnipotent ... Manifesting Myself in the shape of SUN... surpassing all the other Powers in the Universe (conveying the True-sense of Tamil-word : KADAVULH)

// Sarvaanhi Roopaani Vichithya Dheeraha, Naamaani Krithvaa Abhivadhanyadhaasthae Dhaatha//

All the Creations in the Shapes of various Gods and Nature I made... and I am the Giver of Powers to those Sub-Gods created by me.... and I have given them Names also... and also I have entered and living within those Sub-Gods in shapes, while I am the Doer-power within... unseen.

// ... purasthaadh yam Udhaajahaara Chakra-Pravidhvaan pradhisas-sathasraha//

The first I created was Brahma, who is worshipping me... He creates further as per my Commands.

// Tham aevam Vidhwaan Amritha Iha-Bhavathi, Na-Anya-Panthaa ayanaaya Vidhyathae.. //

He (I) is the Only- Knower of all the Past present and Future of anything and everything in the Universe... being OMNISCIENT... He has no End nor Death, but Everlasting on Earth and elsewhere... There is NO OTHER PATH except this... worthy to be learnt

// Sa Brahma.. Sa Siva... Sa Indra ... Parama Swaraat....//

He appears as Brahma... Siva... Indra as well as the Supreme Viswaroopa containing all the Gods within One Huge Unified-God-Shape.

Even Jainism, and Sikhism ... assert God as only one Supreme.

On this aspect of One or Several Gods, the discussions here, may please be put an end to...

And if anybody wants to extend or expand it further, they are requested to quote these points, pertaining to such deviatory aspects.. in some other relevant Threads and continue there... .

... while progressing on the Heritage aspects in the Overall-sense of the Commonman only be continued here.... without any TRANSGRESSIONS. please.

As for the only point I have taken up here... that Indian-Scriptures assert that God is inly One and He created several other Gods and Godesses...

... entered within all of them... gave them the Power-of-Grace too... alongside ruling over their activities... by residing wthin each one of them..

The words... VICHITHYA = Created ... DHEERAHA = One who controls other Gods

ABHIVADHANYAASTHAE = Entering and Residing within other Gods... as Unseen- OVER-RULING-Power (Antharyaami).

DHAATHA = Grace-showerer through other Deities ...

... must be enough to justify my Point...

That GOD IS ONLY ONE... . All others Divine, are HIS CREATIONS (Demi-Gods)...

... including Indra, which is only a Royal-Status of Throne... with Restricted duration of Reign.... Subject to the grant of the Over-ruling ALMIGHTY ....

... OMNIPOTENT,... OMNISCIENT,... OMNIPRESENT ... ONE-GOD.

[Sudhaama]

.
.. GOD IS ONE... as per Indian-Heritage ...Contd.

... Even the Subjects (People) of Indra-loka or the so called Devaloka... are named as DEVAS... which word means GOD...

Since those Devas population is 33 Crores... can we mean it that they are the 33 Crore Gods.

They are named as Devas... similar to Brahma-deva, Mahadeva, Vishnudeva ..only to differentiate them from other Creatures... who are not Super-Human... while all the Devas are Super-Human powerful... But they too are created with the Beginning and End of Life... and are subject to the Commaandments of one Supreme... Which alone can be Qualifed to be addressed as God by the logical-sense of the word.

Vedas and Tamil-Scriptures as well, reiterate and quote as

.. PARA-DEVA.. the Supreme... the only Self-creator... who created several other Gods too.

.. and the SUPREME ... CANNOT BE.... MORE THAN... "ONE".

But any God of the Devotees-choice can shower equal amount of Grace... irrespective of Supremacy.... states Veda, Geetha and such other Scriptures.

Rather the Commonman has nothing to think of Supremacy amongst Gods....

.. because he can gain what he deserves for... by his devotional spirit alone...

.. because when he has access to the Power-Switch ... it is enough to serve his purpose.

.. he need not bother about the Main-Switch and the Power-Network .

[Rohit]

Dear Sudhaama

Yes, I can clearly see and read what you mean by or identify as God. As you have rightly put it, it is nothing but an individually visualised, capricious entity according to one's own outlook, wish and imaginations; and there is an absolute nothing beyond that mental state of affairs.

I can clearly see and sense your own outlook, wish and imaginations that constantly keep revolving around the wishful thoughts and imaginations of an imaginary entity, variously postulated as God, which you falsely and inaccurately seem to believe as the one and only Indian heritage.

By the way, for your kind information, like Buddhism of Buddha, Jainism of Mahavir did not and still does not assert any kind of Creator or Supreme God. Jainism is absolutely an atheistic religion, it has nothing whatsoever to do with the God of any nature that you have so extravagantly wished and imagined for.

Also I can see you falsely and inaccurately wish and imagine something of your own choice as qualified by some arbitrary and unrecognised agency as to be addressed as God; and in those wishes and imaginations, you strangely see and imagine the logical sense of the world :!:

I also acknowledge your sentimental apprehensions shown in your statement that this thread is not attempting to portray any religion or philosophy neither does it intend to address the intricacy of the God(s) depicted in any religious scriptures. But if you care to notice, such Gods are variously postulated and depicted only in the world's various but utterly conflicting religions and scriptures with logically explosive contradictions and yet you strangely seem to believe that, that is the logical sense of the world.

I would be greatly obliged if you can elaborate on the exact nature of what you really mean and believe by the logical sense of the world :!:

By setting aside the age related boundaries; if you are as honest, brave and courageous as you believe and claim to be, I do not understand why you are so anxious to accept a bit of higher logical sense and attempt to raise your own logical sense to the ultimate level?

If you really wish and desire raising your own logical sense to a much higher level and explore the criticality of the main switching algorithms and required states and levels of energy to power and operate the entire network, please do not hesitate to ask or request, I would be more than happy to contribute. Else, you may choose to remain contented with the same level as most commonman do. The choice rests with you and only you.

Good Luck! :)

[Sudhaama]

Dear Sudhaama

Yes, I can clearly see and read what you mean by or identify as God. As you have rightly put it, it is nothing but an individually visualised, capricious entity according to one's own outlook, wish and imaginations; and there is an absolute nothing beyond that mental state of affairs.

I can clearly see and sense your own outlook, wish and imaginations that constantly keep revolving around the wishful thoughts and imaginations of an imaginary entity, variously postulated as God, which you falsely and inaccurately seem to believe as the one and only Indian heritage.

By the way, for your kind information, like Buddhism of Buddha, Jainism of Mahavir did not and still does not assert any kind of Creator or Supreme God. Jainism is absolutely an atheistic religion, it has nothing whatsoever to do with the God of any nature that you have so extravagantly wished and imagined for.

Also I can see you falsely and inaccurately wish and imagine something of your own choice as qualified by some arbitrary and unrecognised agency as to be addressed as God; and in those wishes and imaginations, you strangely see and imagine the logical sense of the world :!:

I also acknowledge your sentimental apprehensions shown in your statement that this thread is not attempting to portray any religion or philosophy neither does it intend to address the intricacy of the God(s) depicted in any religious scriptures. But if you care to notice, such Gods are variously postulated and depicted only in the world's various but utterly conflicting religions and scriptures with logically explosive contradictions and yet you strangely seem to believe that, that is the logical sense of the world.

I would be greatly obliged if you can elaborate on the exact nature of what you really mean and believe by the logical sense of the world :!:

By setting aside the age related boundaries; if you are as honest, brave and courageous as you believe and claim to be, I do not understand why you are so anxious to accept a bit of higher logical sense and attempt to raise your own logical sense to the ultimate level?

If you really wish and desire raising your own logical sense to a much higher level and explore the criticality of the main switching algorithms and required states and levels of energy to power and operate the entire network, please do not hesitate to ask or request, I would be more than happy to contribute. Else, you may choose to remain contented with the same level as most commonman do. The choice rests with you and only you.

Good Luck! :)

Dear Mr Rohit,

My repeated requests to all my friends regarding this Thread.. has not delivered its true sense I think . So I clarify.

On the subject of Religion, Philosophy and Culture... each and everybody on Earth, has a concern and Interest... but there are TWO FORMS of dealing and Presentation. ..

...One is the the ELITE -ANGLE... Rich enough to fathom as deep as possible to bring out the best knowledge available on it in the Earth...

.. And the other LIGHT-ANGLE..... for the less-educated... or less- interested person's Elementary or Basic-Hunger in Life... to learn the Unknown

Keeping both these in Mind... I wish and recommend to all of my Friends... let us not conmplicate both in one and the same threads as a KICHIDI all over... But retain some threads EXCLUSIVELY RICH.

While some other Threads on the same subjects of common interest...by dealing EXCLUSIVELY LIGHT ... for the other sections of the Society.

Under the latter Category falls this Thread... on Heritage ... to cater to all..

.. even to a Foreigner... Non-indian interested to know the GREATNESS OF INDIA,.

Regarding your question entering deep on the matter... we will discuss on the other Forum, ..

... well-relevant to its sense... Thread named.... "k-NO-w God"...

You are invited to that Dais.. whereto I have transferred your Question.

Dear Mr. Rohit,...Welcome. .... to... "k-NO-w God"

[viggop]

i think the only proper way of understanding the vedas is under a guru.Dr.jaybee wrote that vedas can be read in multiple ways in using different metres.ordinary english translation will probably take away the essence of vedas.

[Idiappam]

i think the only proper way of understanding the vedas is under a guru.Dr.jaybee wrote that vedas can be read in multiple ways in using different metres.ordinary english translation will probably take away the essence of vedas.

What is the 'eseence of vedas'? I would appreaciate an answer with relavant quotes direct from the Vedas.

[viggop]

Idiappam Sir
I've not read the Vedas to answer your question.Probably, this will be best answered by people who have studied Vedas under a guru in instituitions like Kanchi Mutt,Ramakrishna mutt.

[Sudhaama]

[tscii:a8842108ea]
... DHEEPAAWALI : Typical Hindu-Festival of PROSPERITY

India is the Land of maximum number of Social- Festivals and Homely- Celebrations... compared to any Nation in the World. And each and every such function has some implicit Sense and Principle of Life-Science imbued within... towards the Overall benefit of the Common Society.

Being the so-called Agricultural-country, most of the Festivals and Celebrations are Agriculture-related. But Dheepaawali is an exception, being common to all..

India also being the Global-Centre of Advanced-Spiritualism based on Religions alongside Applied- Philosophies of sorts...

... every Festival has been linked with the Religious customs and / or Puranas also, lest people may not attach importance and zeal to celebrate.

One such is Dheepaawali, the Annual Festival celebrated in the month of October-November as “Festival of Lights”

...and so introduced to Foreigners. No doubt the word Dheepaawali means so.. as the “Serial- Lights”. Light is given importance during this Festival and so celebrated in the Darkness of early morning. Crackers too indicate the same sense.

How is it linked with any Individual, Common-man, especially the Farmer.?

He sows the seeds in the Aadi month ( Aashaada / Karkataka) .. July-August Watering, Manures and all such of his toil for the Crop, is completed before Dheepaawali in October-November.

The next process for the Crop -- Growth is not in his hands, but the God’s... So he prays to God and LIVES IN HOPE.

Not only the Farmer but also for others...this month being the Rainy season... is a Dull-period of minimum activity for any member of the Society.

Since the IDLE-BRAIN IS THE DEVIL'S WORSKSHOP...it is not advisable to allow anybody's mind to get diverted towards stray thoughts, or brooding over... culminating in loss of Hope..and dissipation of Enthusiasm

So, coupled with AUTO-SUGGESTION forgetting his past disappointmnents, failures and miseries alongside his current problems and shortcomings in the Family...

.. is duly channelised to think and apply his Thoughts only on the Future by Postive-Thinking .as also to renew his BELIEF by wearing New Clothes.

" My Life will shine better and Prosper more in Future, irrespective of the Past, which has imparted me enough of Life- Lessons Be done with it. Let me Forget it beyond that pinch of useful salt for my Future-needs. I will be Happy... My Family will be Happy.. We all in the Society will Prosper” he thinks... and hopes.

Everyone in the Society too thinks aike as ... We We We (Society) ALL WILL BECOME HAPPY and PROSPER

Such a Synchronised Homogenious, Congruent-Thinking, by ONE AND ALL of the Society UNANIMOUSLY ( Spirit of Yaavarum-Kaelir)

.. fetches the due Scientific Result of Positive-Achievement by means of AUTO-SUGGESTION.

The PROSPERITY for the ensuing wholeYear for the entire Society BY HOPE.

Man lives by Hope only...

Indian Festivals are intended for Social- celebrations by Unity and Social- Involvement

.. towards the PROSPERITY. of the OVERALL SOCIETY .. The Significance of Dheepawali.
[/tscii:a8842108ea]

[r_kk]

[tscii:b937eb119c]
Probably, this will be best answered by people who have studied Vedas under a guru in instituitions like Kanchi Mutt,Ramakrishna mutt.
Viggop,
based on my child/youth hood interaction with Ramakrishna mission and Arya Samaj before becoming skeptic, I can say Arya Samaji's (http://www.victoriaaryasamaj.org/lotruth.pdf) can provide more clear and logical (no puranic or mythical) answers to questions on Vedas. Rama Krishna mission is highly depend Ramakrishna/Vivekanda's personalized views of Upansihads. I recommend you read these books before supporting mythical stories (like “parrot head” “Aeri kaatha Ramar”) of Mr. Suddhama as heritage, which will bring only ridicule. Even though now I have lot of logical arguments against their explnations, i wholeheartly respect the selfless firebrands (like Vivekanada and Agnivesh) these philosophies produced. [/tscii:b937eb119c]

[viggop]

Dear r_kk
Thanks a lot for your advice. I believe in mythological stories and will propagate them.It does not pain me if i'm ridiculed.I respect other peoples views even if they conflicting with mine.I'm entitled to my views as other people are to theirs.
Again,no problem for me if my views are ridiculed.As long as i hold a view which does not break my country's laws(like sectarian ,communal type of views),i am comfortable with it.I might change my views in the future if i want too.:-)

[sivajayan]

I believe in mythological stories and will propagate them.

feel sooooo sorry for you! Sincere condolences. :sad:

dullness will always be punished, also in the mythology.

[sivajayan]

Since the IDLE-BRAIN IS THE DEVIL'S WORSKSHOP...it is not advisable to allow anybody's mind to get diverted towards stray thoughts, or brooding over... culminating in loss of Hope..and dissipation of Enthusiasm

So, coupled with AUTO-SUGGESTION forgetting his past disappointmnents, failures and miseries alongside his current problems and shortcomings in the Family...

.. is duly channelised to think and apply his Thoughts only on the Future by Postive-Thinking .as also to renew his BELIEF by wearing New Clothes.


Mr. Sudhaama,

I wonder why you know all this ! I can hardly believe in what you say.

To let one's mind wander does not mean stray thoughts. The foolish believe in mythology and propagating the same witnesses the idle-brain.

New clothes do not renew your belief because the corpus remain the same. And a good spirit dwells in a healthy body.

How often do you wear new clothes?:lol:

[Sudhaama]

Since the IDLE-BRAIN IS THE DEVIL'S WORSKSHOP...it is not advisable to allow anybody's mind to get diverted towards stray thoughts, or brooding over... culminating in loss of Hope..and dissipation of Enthusiasm

So, coupled with AUTO-SUGGESTION forgetting his past disappointmnents, failures and miseries alongside his current problems and shortcomings in the Family...

.. is duly channelised to think and apply his Thoughts only on the Future by Postive-Thinking .as also to renew his BELIEF by wearing New Clothes.


Mr. Sudhaama,

I wonder why you know all this ! I can hardly believe in what you say.

To let one's mind wander does not mean stray thoughts. The foolish believe in mythology and propagating the same witnesses the idle-brain.

New clothes do not renew your belief because the corpus remain the same. And a good spirit dwells in a healthy body.

How often do you wear new clothes?:lol:

Based on my long experience in Life for about 70 years... mostly of extreme sufferings ... especially the UNDUE ONES... instead of deserving Rewards... as well as by learning from several Intellecuals... by reading books exhaustively... attending several seminars and conferences.... plus intensive discussions with the Experts in the respective fields ... I have learnt a lot on Life.

But most of my Knowledge cannot be useful to me now or for my future... because of my Age.... in my last chapter of Life.

Proverb: LIFE-EXPERIENCE IS THE GOLDEN- COMB PRESENTED BY GOD TO THE BALD-HEADED MAN.

So, I wish... let my Practical- knowledge on Meaningful- Life ... NOT DIE WITH ME...

... but be useful... at least to a FEW OTHERS WHO NEED AND SEEK FOR.

Let anybody agree or disagree with me... It is left to them to accept or differ.... I do not relish to indulge in Arguments but only Discussions... Healthy- Exchange of Knowledge...

..Rather if any other Hubber, more kinowledged than me puts forth his parallel views, I will be happy to learn and pass on to others... who seek.

I am only intersted to reply only to those, who will not WOUND ME..by pooh- poohing me PERSONALLY...

... but ONLY to that ONE OR FEW even... who are interested to know more in detail on my statements... in the interest of their HAPPY AND SUCCESSFUL FUTURE.

Such GENTLEMEN AND LADIES.... ONLY...ONLY ...ONLY... are welcome to QUESTION ME..... or SEEK CLARIFICATIONS.

[sivajayan]

I am only intersted to reply only to those, who will not WOUND ME..by pooh- poohing me PERSONALLY...

Such GENTLEMEN AND LADIES.... ONLY...ONLY ...ONLY... are welcome to QUESTION ME..... or SEEK CLARIFICATIONS.


Pls avoid personal comments/insults

[Sudhaama]

[tscii:6fd4f23538]
.. Dheepaawalhi -Concept :. - Part : 2

Even though mythologically it is celebrated as the day of Victory of Lord Krishna over Narakaasura, it symbolically denotes the Defeat of Evil- forces combating and hindering Positive-forces on our Earthly Life ..

Practically it means the urge for self-reminder on the consistent efforts of Evil-forces working against our advancement by Good intentions on Earth.

Such Evil forces .. says Indian- Heritage .. especially based on Bhagawad- geetha... in the Sloka... “Uddharaeth Aathman aathmaanam .....Na Aathmaanam avasaadhayaeth. Aathmaiva Aathmano Bandhuhu... Aathmaiva Ripuraathmanaha.”...

... which means..

“Oh Man, Raise yourselves by your own Self- Endeavour (Independantly) ., and Let not You denigrate yourselves (by means of your Wrong approach)... since You are your own Friend as well as You your own Enemy too, as well.”

Your Enemy... means that there are six Enemies within Man .. such as Greed, Vengeance, Anger, and the like .. which work against him from within, leading to his consequential failures in Life-goals and Happiness.

As detailed through my posting recently.. Dheepaawalhi is a day of Auto- Suggestion developing Bright Hope for the future, by Faith with Positive- thinking.

In brief, it means.. Self-realisation concurrent with Social- involvement. on Common Celebrations and Festivals like Dheepaawalhi.

SUCCESS and HAPPINESS IN LIFE result MORE BY HEARTS than by BRAINS.


[/tscii:6fd4f23538]

[Surya]

SUCCESS and HAPPINESS IN LIFE result MORE BY HEARTS than by BRAINS.

That line was awesome Sudhaama ji!! :D :D :D

Very well said. :D

[Surya]

Thanks a lot for your advice. I believe in mythological stories and will propagate them.

It brings me great joy when I see posts like that. :D :D :D

So called "mythological" stories are rejected by the so-called "modern" people. Although I must say that real modernization has nothing to do with denying these stories, or should I say Historical Facts. :)

Now back to Sudhaama Ji. :D Please enlighten us more. :D

[goodsense]

*******SUCCESS and HAPPINESS IN LIFE result MORE BY HEARTS than by BRAINS******

Especially at this time. Purge the heart of all the poison towards the enemy ........

[sivajayan]

SUCCESS and HAPPINESS IN LIFE result MORE BY HEARTS than by BRAINS.


Okay, then let us produce mongoloid only!

[Uthappam]

Thanks a lot for your advice. I believe in mythological stories and will propagate them.

It brings me great joy when I see posts like that. :D :D :D

wat is your motive?

[Surya]

By that post?? Putting forth my opinion, which is what forums are all about. :mrgreen:

[Sudhaama]

.. You will become as You PERSONIFY YOURSELVES.

By the words... "Yath Bhaavam thath bhavathi" ... Upanishad means so. Which depicts the sense of Auto-Suggestion, Self-ambition-coupled Future Status / Achievement / Accomplishment and the likes.. in ones Life.

Modern- Science affirms, based on deep Research... that more than the Wisdom-might of Man... Mind-might fetches him / her.... the Result of Self-personification... greater and faster SUCCESS

... by means of... Thinking high... Aiming high... and Working high ... towards any Preset Goal or Ambition, or Objectives... based on Positive-Thinking.

Valluvar too means the same by his words ... "Ulhlhuvadhu yellaam Uyarvu ulhlhal, matradhu thalhlhinum thalhlhaamai neerththu"

We see in Life practically ... that even a commonfolk of moderate wisdom has become more successful in Life... than the so called Wiser even... Why.?

Mind-application is the Answer.... irrespectibve of Wisdom .

No doubt, Wisdom is a great might... but with Slackness on Mind-power -application, wisdom becomes futile. .... So to say, mainly by means of Self-confidence, and Will-power which further lead him to Auto- Suggestion... any Man can achieve his maximum Result duly fast..

So Aadhi Sankaracharya has taken up this point of Vedic-Gospel, as his Rudimentary principle of Adhwaitha- philosophy .... the Concept of Reality.

Aham Brahmaasmi... ( I am God) Brahmaiva Aham asmi ( God Himself am I)

Superficially looking at it... this concept seems ridiculous, INCREDIBLE.. and unacceptable ... either logically or practically or in any sense of a commonman.

But if one considers it Psychologically by Realism, he can find it to fast develop his inner powers towards higher sphere... and realm on Life.

That is how Ramana-maharishi could ask his Doctors not to give him Anaesthesia... even locally ... while conducting a major Surgery on his body.... and it was so conducted to the amazement of the Surgeons and other Staff around....since the patient was keeping his eyes wide-open watching the surgery.... unaffected, undisturbed, unperturbed, and painless but with a ever-cheerful face coupled with serene mood.... Talking normally as if he is just lying down in bed without any extraneous acticivity on his body by Knife-cut.

Another example is Sri Chandra-sekarendra-sarawathi Swami... the previous Kanchi-Sankaracharya ... so called "Nadamaadum-Dheywam" Many of his devotees have narrated volley of their TRUE experiences that just by worshipping that Acharya, they were getting Divine-reaction of God's Grace miraculously.

Al these realities because... those Acharyas... were chanting constantly.... "I am God... I am God"... as also BELIEVED SO... as well as PERSONIFIED SO.. with the least doubt.... which sort of Auto-suggestion has made them as Demi-Gods.

Bill- Clinton, right from his Boyhood... believed that he will become the President of his country USA... in one future day... and he personified himself so... which Mind-power made his Self-Belief TRUE.

Wright-brothers... were just dreaming consistently... as if they were flying in the Sky... and believed it to become True one day in future.... and so personified themselves so... which sort of Psychological- Positive-Power got them Ideas leading to the Invention of the first Aircraft... Thus their dream became True.... by means of Auto- Suggestion

There are several similar cases we see in life.... that for a ..

.. person who .... BELIEVES HIMSELF AS SUCCESSFUL.... becomes Successful one day....

May be after series of Stumbling-blocks, Obtacles, Delays and Failures... but Ultimately he ACHIEVES AS HE PERSONIFIES HIMSELF.....

"Yath Bhaavam Thath Bhavathi". Same as You PERSONIFY Yourselves, You will become so"

... the SCIENTIFIC- GOSPEL.... of Indian-Heritage.

[Idiappam]

By the words... "Yath Bhaavam thath bhavathi" ... Upanishad means so.

Which Upanishad? When was that written?

[sivajayan]

-deleted-

[Surya]

Discussing more about Clinton's personal affairs isn't relevent to the thread. If u would like to discuss it, go to some republican forums. And also, please refrain from the personal attacks. They just display ur incapability to debate in a civilized way.

[mahadevan]

'Yath Bhaavam thath bhavathi' the statement makes a lot of common sense, it is just talking about positive thinking, if you work harder towards your ambition/goal the chances are higher that you would get/reach the goal.

But does this not contradict fate/laws of karma, it is more supportive of freewill.

By the way does the statement 'Yath Bhaavam thath bhavathi' follows another that states, only so and so can think like that and that too only after chanting a bunch of mantras. If so we are still in accordance with fate/laws of karma. Because in punniya bhoomi some are born to serve others however great the former is.

[Sudhaama]

'Yath Bhaavam thath bhavathi' the statement makes a lot of common sense, it is just talking about positive thinking, if you work harder towards your ambition/goal the chances are higher that you would get/reach the goal.

But does this not contradict fate/laws of karma, it is more supportive of freewill. .... .

Good Question Mr. Mahadevan.... Thanks for opening another Gate of opportunity for me to clarify further.

This is the Very Point Aadhi Sankaracharya took up seriously, as soon as he ventured into a Revolutionary approach on Human- Emancipation...

... at a critical situation... when almost the whole India (barring a few like Gupthas and Pallavas), were nurturing the Buddhist & Jain Cultures.

Yes... if Sankaracharya had not taken the Awathara ... the present India, including You and I would have been chanting "Buddham Charanam Gachchaami..." as Buddhists ... BANKING TOO MUCH ON FATE..

If anybody is DESTINED TO FACE THE PRE-DRAWN PLAN OF FATE...

... Then Why God, Scriptures, Astrology, Medical-Science, and Temples?
asked Sankaracharya

Budhdhism even preaches ... that Kings are not Gods and so are not authorised to punish the Culprit ... even after finding him guilty... but to leave it to HIS FATE.

Such is the emphasis on Fate... by not only Budhism but also Jainism

... which also preached against maintaining a Military-force to combat the Possible-Enemy or for Self- Defence against Invasion by a Foreigner

Whereas Vedic-Religion... insists on the indispensability of the Military force... even be an idle-might..

To ensure a CONSTANT THREAT in the minds of the greedy Enemies...

One of the main reasons why India was so easily VULNERABLE for repeated foreign Invasions was, because of the then existed Religious cultures basing on Budhism and Jainism... over-emphasising Destiny.

So the Kings were DEFENCELESS... While the people were NON- RETALIATORY to enemy's Invasions... despite Human Valour available within.

... but accomodative enough by blaming on their ILL-FATES...

Even after India's Independance... We all know... how one of such a Bhudhists country was grabbed by a Big-power because of Non- defencive might in the possession of the Budhist- Ruler.

Even though Vedic-Culture too believes in Fate and Karma... it vociferously advocates for Liberation from Karma and Pre-written plan of Fate... caused by his acts during his previous Births...

... which is a Balance-Sheet of Life-Accounts to base with, for the current birth as the OPENING-BLANCE.....

But the current Life-birth... does not stop or end with the previous births Balance-Sheet ALONE...

... But on how you handle your current Life opportunities furtheron

...which can CORRECT, IMPROVE, AND ALSO ADVANCE over such past deeds, Karmas...

... by means of ones CURRENT-DEEDS... adding Punhyas... Self- realisation, Devotional pursuit on Life (with a Constant Remembrance that One Super-power is constantly watching our each and every activity ... and that we will reap later the consequence of the seed of action what we sow now.. Nobody is an exception).

When the Sins are so much of irreparable or uncompromising magnitude....

... then the last resort is ...SARANAAGATHI (Self-Surrender to God leaving his problems to Him) restraining oneself towards his future duties in this birth.

Sankaracharya voluntarily and dynamically took up a serious drive... and knocked at every door to door of Emperors, Kings, Seers, Saints and Scholars of such alien faiths. ...

... and challenged on these practical points too, apart from Philosophical aspects.... Thus brought them round to his fold...

That is why ... India is SURVIVING AT LEAST TO THIS EXTENT.... because of the Great Aadhi Sankaracharya Swami.

While the then Scholarly Budhists monks failed before him... People called him as the PRACCHANNA BUDDHA- SWAMI... (another Awathara of Budha)... because he too strongly ADVOCATED NON-VIOLENCE.

His novel concept of Life-Hope ... contrary to the erstwhile self- depressive spirit of Fate...

... awakened the people as a Renaissance of God- Faith in a constructive and Healthy manner....

... Resulting in the upsurge of Forward-look and Advancement of the Overall Society.

// By the way does the statement 'Yath Bhaavam thath bhavathi' follows another that states, only so and so can think like that and that too only after chanting a bunch of mantras. If so we are still in accordance with fate/laws of karma.//

No.No... Nowhere it is said so.... According to Vedic-sense ... ALL ARE THE GOD'S CHILDREN... All souls are equal before God with no mutual superiority.

To honour the devotion of even a Sub-human- creature, an Elephant, God personally rushed to rescue him from danger.

// Because in punniya bhoomi some are born to serve others however great the former is...//

No No.. EMPHATICALLY ... NO.. NO NO. It is all the MAN-MADE Theories

... Started as a matter of Social-conduct and covenience by the Kings..

.. and further corrupted to prevent a Revolt and also to ensure the Monarchic domination.

Nobody is born to be a Servant... and another as a King.... by Destiny or Religion or God's Will....

If it were so, He cannot be deemed as God, the Common- Father- Protector.

... ALL SUCH FORMULAES WERE MAN- MADE.

Such false Theories have been exposed and duly clarified repeatedly by means of words and actions by Tukaram, Krishna- Chaithanya, Sankaracharya and Ramanujacharya as well.

God too during Awatharas has strongly supported them by His auxiliary deeds..

My previous posting... Raise Yourselves by your own Efforts... is common to all... conforming to Vedic-Scriptures and Indian-Culture.

[r_kk]

[tscii:5b123798aa]

Yes... if Sankaracharya had not taken the Awathara ... the present India, including You and I would have been chanting "Buddham Charanam Gachchaami..." as Buddhists ... BANKING TOO MUCH ON FATE.. If anybody is DESTINED TO FACE THE PRE-DRAWN PLAN OF FATE... ... Then Why God, Scriptures, Astrology, Medical-Science, and Temples?
asked Sankaracharya. Budhdhism even preaches ... that Kings are not Gods and so are not authorised to punish the Culprit ... even after finding him guilty... but to leave it to HIS FATE.


Can you please quote from Buddha’s Tripitakam/Dhammapada to justify your statements? Can you understand the difference between “cause and Effect” / “Reason for occurrence” and “FATE”? Why Buddhism says “You are the light for yourselves”?

It is millions times better to chant “Buddha saranam kachami” rather then spending life in worst caste system and untouchability.



One of the main reasons why India was so easily VULNERABLE for repeated foreign Invasions was, because of the then existed Religious cultures basing on Budhism and Jainism... over-emphasising Destiny.

Even after India's Independance... We all know... how one of such a Bhudhists country was grabbed by a Big-power because of Non- defencive might in the possession of the Budhist- Ruler.


Are these (except Tibet occupation by communist China) are based on any historical evidences? Do you know who invited foreign invaders to India? Please read Indian history. Do you know how much portion of India we lost to China in the last war? Even the powerful army of India couldn’t stop China, how do you expect poor small country like Tibet might have stopped China’s invasion?



Even though Vedic-Culture too believes in Fate and Karma... it vociferously advocates for Liberation from Karma and Pre-written plan of Fate... caused by his acts during his previous Births...


Can you please explain the ways to overcome such predetermined FATE? Will going to “Saneeswaran temple” or doing “parikaram” proposed by expensive astrologer or wearing “thayathu” or “taking bath in Ganges” or conducting “poojas and velvi” by burning lot of useful items or “abisekam” help?



When the Sins are so much of irreparable or uncompromising magnitude....

Why do you give false hopes and the ways to escape from the wrong doings they committed, instead of accepting their mistakes, its consequences punishments by themselves and own correction process?



That is why ... India is SURVIVING AT LEAST TO THIS EXTENT.... because of the Great Aadhi Sankaracharya Swami.

Instead of India, you can replace with castes, myths and superstitions. Why caste is surviving? Why human is born to be slaves and untouchable? Why Astrologers, Vaastu consultants, Tantrics and quacks are still running their shows?



While the then Scholarly Budhists monks failed before him... People called him as the PRACCHANNA BUDDHA- SWAMI... (another Awathara of Budha)... because he too strongly ADVOCATED NON-VIOLENCE.


Do you mean the word “scholar” as enlightened Buddhists? Vedic religion was not having any hope other than copying the good things of Buddhism in order to swallow it.



No.No... Nowhere it is said so.... According to Vedic-sense ... ALL ARE THE GOD'S CHILDREN... All souls are equal before God with no mutual superiority.
... Started as a matter of Social-conduct and covenience by the Kings..


Instead of writing like this, please do something to prove this. Please go to Bihar or even south part of TN (Ramnad, Salem Districts) and preach this. Then I will buy your lengthy writings. The reality is very harsh and cruel. Do you reject the sole base of “sanadhana dhrama”.



... ALL SUCH FORMULAES WERE MAN- MADE.

What is not man-made including concept of “God”?


[/tscii:5b123798aa]

[Badri]

If anybody is DESTINED TO FACE THE PRE-DRAWN PLAN OF FATE...

... Then Why God, Scriptures, Astrology, Medical-Science, and Temples?
asked Sankaracharya

Budhdhism even preaches ... that Kings are not Gods and so are not authorised to punish the Culprit ... even after finding him guilty... but to leave it to HIS FATE.



I am reminded here of what Bhagawan Sri Ramana Maharishi, hailed as one of the greatest Jnanis in India, had to say to his mother who entreated him to come back home.

"Whatever is destined not to happen will not happen, try as you may. Whatever is destined to happen will happen, do what you may to prevent it. This is certain. The best course, therefore, is to remain silent."

Besides, Adi Sankara clearly states that going to temples, doing pujas, wearing amulets or belief in astrology can do nothing to liberate man.
Just as no amount of running around or flailing about in darkness can remove that but only a spark of light can, so too, only wisdom can give liberation/mukti/nirvana call it what you want.

[Sudhaama]

If anybody is DESTINED TO FACE THE PRE-DRAWN PLAN OF FATE...

... Then Why God, Scriptures, Astrology, Medical-Science, and Temples?
asked Sankaracharya

Budhdhism even preaches ... that Kings are not Gods and so are not authorised to punish the Culprit ... even after finding him guilty... but to leave it to HIS FATE.

I am reminded here of what Bhagawan Sri Ramana Maharishi, hailed as one of the greatest Jnanis in India, had to say to his mother who entreated him to come back home.

"Whatever is destined not to happen will not happen, try as you may. Whatever is destined to happen will happen, do what you may to prevent it. This is certain. The best course, therefore, is to remain silent."

Besides, Adi Sankara clearly states that going to temples, doing pujas, wearing amulets or belief in astrology can do nothing to liberate man.
Just as no amount of running around or flailing about in darkness can remove that but only a spark of light can, so too, only wisdom can give liberation/mukti/nirvana call it what you want.

What that Great Ramana maharishi meant was different. He stood firm on his decision of Sanyasa...

He believed that he had been ordained by the Almighty through hos brother's Voice to go out of his previous state of an ordinary man by name Venkataraman..... So no look-back he meant.

That logic has nothing to do with his preachig on Life Karma and Fate a common factor applicable to anybody, according to Vedic-concept.

Ever through his Life-time, Ramana-Maharishi had not advocated Inaction or Indolence in Life, depending on ones pre-drawn Fate.

His main propogation was.... Who is I ?... Realise Yourselves along with Super- human- power.

Veda says... 'ISHTAM MANISHAANHA... AMUM MANISHAANHA... SARVAM MANISHAANHA....

... meaning.. "Let me get what I want...Let me getv all the Earthly wealth (worthy for any Human-being)... Let all my Ambitions (of this Birth) be fulfilled.."

If one has to depend on his Life-duties and leave to destiny, why and how anybody is entitled to seek and want... He has to just accept what he receives and be silent with it... which is not the concept of Vedic-Scriptures

Geetha classifies devotees into Four...One of them is ARTHAARTHI... the one who seeks for more wealth and better Advancements in the current birth.

Andal says... "THIRUTHTHAKKA SELVAMUM SAEVAKUMUM YAAM PAADI VARUTHTHAMUM THEERNDHU MAHIZHNDAELOAR "

... which is Self-explanatory... I need not elaborate.

"Oozhaiyum uppakkam kaanhbar ulaivinrhi thaazhaadhu ugnjatrubavar."
says Valhlhuvar.

... meaning .. One who strives hard without slackness, CAN DEFEAT EVEN his own (Contrary) FATE

This is the true depiction of Vedic sense.... quite contrary to Budhisim which advises to be totally free from Desires... Saintly life..

Vedic scriptures says... Control your Desires... Don't become the slave of your desires... Never be Greedy... You be your Master.

[Sudhaama]

[tscii:b990b63135]
r_kk wrote:

// Are these (except Tibet occupation by communist China) are based on any historical evidences? Do you know who invited foreign invaders to India? Please read Indian history. Do you know how much portion of India we lost to China in the last war? Even the powerful army of India couldn’t stop China, how do you expect poor small country like Tibet might have stopped China’s invasion? //

Since this part of discussion is alien to the Scope of this thread, it is transferred to the relevant Thread on History

... "Historical Debates/Qs/Facts/Theories"... and replied. there today.

Further on that History aspect it may be continued there... while the postings relevant to INDIAN HERITAGE will only be dealt here.
[/tscii:b990b63135]

[Uppuma]

[tscii:efd31ea578]Friends,
I am giving from Wikipedia, for all to consume.

Science and technology in ancient India - Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaScience
and technology in ancient India
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
Jump to: navigation, search
Science and technology in ancient India covered all the major branches of human
knowledge and activities, including mathematics, astronomy, physics, chemistry,
medical science and surgery, fine arts, mechanical and production technology,
civil engineering and architecture, shipbuilding and navigation, sports and
games.
Grant Duff, a British historian has remarked: “Many of the advances in the
sciences that we consider today to have been made in Europe were in fact made in
India centuries ago”.
Contents
1 Introduction
2 Mathematics
3 Astronomy
4 Physics
5 Chemistry
6 Medicine & surgery
7 Fine arts
8 Production technology
9 Civil engineering & architecture
10 Shipbuilding & navigation
11 Games & Sports
12 External links


[edit]Introduction
Ancient India was a land of sages, saints and seers as well as a land of
scholars and scientists. Ancient India’s contribution to science and technology
include:
Mathematics – Vedic literature is replete with concepts of zero, the
techniques of algebra and algorithm, square root and cube root.
Astronomy – Rig Veda (2000 BC) refers to astronomy.
Physics – Concepts of atom and theory of relativity were explicitely stated by
an Indian Philosopher around 600 BC.
Chemistry – Principles of chemistry did not remained abstract but also found
expression in distillation of perfumes, aromatic liquids, manufacturing of
dyes and pigments, and extraction of sugar.
Medical science & surgery – Around 800 BC, first compendium on medicine and
surgery was complied in ancient India.
Fine Arts – Vedas were recited and recitation has to be correct, which gave
rise to a finer study of sound and phonetics. The natural corollary were
emergence of music and other forms of performing arts.
Mechanical & production technology – Greek historians have testified to
smelting of certain metals in India in the 4th century BC.
Civil engineering & architecture – The discovery of urban settlements of
Mohenjodaro and Harappa indicate existence of civil engineering &
architecture, which blossomed to a highly precise science of civil engineering
and architecture and found expression in innumerable monuments of ancient
India.
Shipbuilding & navigation – Sanskrit and Pali texts have several references to
maritime activity by ancient Indians.
Sports & games – Ancient India is the birth place of chess, ludo, snakes and
ladders and playing cards.
[edit]Mathematics
Mathematics represents a very high level of abstraction attained by human brain.
In ancient India, roots to mathematics can be traced to Vedic literature, which
are around 4000 years old. Between 1000 BC and 1000 AD, a number of mathematical
treatises were authored in India. Will Durant, American historian (1885-1981)
has once said that “India was the mother of our philosophy... of much of our
mathematics.”
It is now generally accepted that India is the birth place of several
mathematical concepts, including zero, algebra and algorithm, square root and
cube root. Zero is a numeral as well as a concept. It owes its origin to the
Indian philosophy which had a concept of “sunya”, literal translation of which
is “void”, and zero emerged as a derivative symbol to represent this
philosophical concept.
Geometrical theories and pattern were not unknown to ancient Indians and find
display in motifs on temple walls, which are in many cases replete with mix of
floral and geometric patterns. The method of graduated calculation was
documented in a book named “Five Principles” (Panch-Siddhantika) which dates to
5th Century AD.
A. L. Basham, an Australian Indologist, writes in his book, The Wonder That was
India that "... the world owes most to India in the realm of mathematics, which
was developed in the Gupta period to a stage more advanced than that reached by
any other nation of antiquity. The success of Indian mathematics was mainly due
to the fact that Indians had a clear conception of the abstract number as
distinct from the numerical quantity of objects or spatial extension."
Algebric theories, as also other mathematical concepts, which were in
circulation in ancient India, were collected and further developed by
Aryabhatta, an Indian mathematician, who lived in the 5th century, in the city
of Patna, then called Pataliputra. He has referred to Algebra (as Bijaganitam)
in his treatise on mathematics named “Aryabhattiya” Another mathematician of the
12th century, Bhaskaracharya also authored several treatises on the subject –
one of them, named “Siddantha Shiromani” has a chapter on algebra. In 1816,
James Taylor translated Bhaskaracharya’s Leelavati into English. Another
translation of the same work by English astronomer Henry Thomas Colebruke
appeared next year in 1817.
The credit for fine-tuning and internationalizing these mathematical concepts -
which had originated in India – goes to the Arabs and Persians. Al-Khawarizmi, a
Persian mathematician, developed a technique of calculation that became known as
"algorism." This was the seed from which modern arithmetic algorithms have
developed. Al-Khwarizmi’s work was translated into Latin under the title
Algoritmi de numero Indorum, meaning "The System of Indian Numerals." A
mathematician in Arabic is called Hindsa which means "from India."
Bhaskara, followed by Madhava and other mathematicians of the Kerala school made
major inroads into the invention of Calculus that were not to be repeated
anywhere until the 17th century by Newton and Leibnitz.
[edit]Astronomy
Ancient India’s contributions in the field of astronomy are well known and well
documented and earliest references to astronomy are found in the Rig Veda, which
are dated 2000 BC. During next 2500 years, by 500 AD, ancient Indian astronomy
has emerged as an important part of Indian studies and its affect is also seen
in several treatises of that period. In some instances, astronomical principles
were borrowed to explain matters, pertaining to astrology, like casting of a
horoscope. Apart from this linkage of astronomy with astrology in ancient India,
science of astronomy continued to develop independently, and culminated into
original findings, like:
The calculation of occurrences of eclipses
Determination of Earth’s circumference
Theorizing about the theory of gravitation
Determining that sun was a star and determination of number of plants under
our solar system
[edit]Physics
The root to the concept of atom in ancient India is derived from the
classification of material world in five basic elements by ancient Indian
philosophers. These five “elements” and such a classification existed since the
Vedic times, around 3000 BC before. These five elements were the earth
(prithvi), fire (agni), air (maya), water (jaal) and ether or space (aksha).
These elements were also associated with human sensory perceptions: earth with
smell, air with feeling, fire with vision, water with taste and ether/space with
sound. Later on, Buddhist philosophers replaced ether/space with life, joy and
sorrow.
From ancient times, Indian philosophers believed that except ether or space, all
other elements were physically palpable and hence comprised of small and
minuscule particles of matter. They believed that the smallest particle which
could not be subdivided further was parmanu, a Sanskrit word. Paramanu is made
of two Sanskrit words, param meaning ultimate or beyond and anu meaning atom.
Thus, the term "paramanu" literally means “beyond atom” and this was a concept
at an abstract level which indicated the possibility of splitting atom, which is
now the source of atomic energy. The term "atom" however should not be conflated
with the concept of atom as it is understood today.
Kanada , a 6th century, Indian philosopher was the first person who went deep
systematically in such theorization. Another Indian, philosopher, Pakudha
Katyayana, who was a contemporary of Buddha, also propounded the ideas about the
atomic constitution of the material world. All these were based on logic and
philosophy and lacked any empirical basis for want of commensurate technology.
Similarly, the concept of theory of Galliean relativity (not to be confused with
Einstein's theory of relativity) was available in an embryonic form in the
Indian philosophical concept of “sapekshavad”, the literal translation of this
Sanskrit word is "theory of relativity”.
These theories have attracted attention of the Indologists, and A. L. Basham, a
veteran Australian Indologist has concluded that “they were brilliant
imaginative explanations of the physical structure of the world, and in a large
measure, agreed with the discoveries of modern physics."
[edit]Chemistry
Ancient India’s development in chemistry was not confined at an abstract level
like physics, but found development in a variety of practical activities.
In any early civilization, metallurgy has remained an activity central to all
civilizations from the Bronze Age and the Iron Age, to all other civilizations
that followed. It is believed that the basic idea of smelting reached ancient
India from Mesopotamia and the Near East. In ancient India, the science of
smelting reached a high level of refinement and precision. In the 5th century
BC, the Greek historian Herodotus has observed that “Indian and the Persian army
used arrows tipped with iron.” Ancient Romans were using armour and cutlery made
of Indian iron.
In India itself, certain objects testify to the higher level of metallurgy
achieved by the ancient Indians. By the side of Qutub Minar, a World heritage
site, in Delhi, stands an Iron Pillar. The pillar is believed to be cast in the
Gupta period around circa 500 AD. The pillar is 7.32 meters tall, tapering from
a diameter of 40 cm at the base to 30 cm at the top and is estimated to weigh 6
tonnes. It has been standing in the open for last 1500 years, withstanding the
wind, heat and weather, but still has not rusted, except very minor natural
erosion. This kind of rust proof iron was not possible till iron and steel was
discovered few decades before.
The advance nature of ancient India’s chemical science also finds expression in
other fields, like distillation of perfumes and fragment ointments,
manufacturing of dyes and chemicals, polishing of mirrors, preparation of
pigments and colours. Paintings found on walls of Ajanta and Ellora (both World
heritage sites) which look fresh even after 1000 years, also testify to the high
level of chemical science achieved in ancient India.
[edit]Medicine & surgery
Ayurveda as a science of medicine owes its origins in ancient India. Ayurveda
consists of two Sanskrit words – ‘ayur’ meaning age or life, and ‘veda’ which
means knowledge. Thus, the literal meaning of Ayurveda is the science of life or
longevity. Ayurveda constitutes ideas about ailments and diseases, their
symptoms, diagnosis and cure, and relies heavily on herbal medicines, including
extracts of several plants of medicinal values. This reliance on herbs
differentiates Ayurveda from systems like Allopathy and Homeopathy. Ayurveda has
also always disassociated itself with witch doctors and voodoo.
Ancient scholars of India like Atreya[1], and Agnivesa have dealt with
principles of Ayurveda as long back as 800 BC. Their works and other
developments were consolidated by Charaka who compiled a compendium of Ayurvedic
principles and practices in his treatise ‘Charaka-Samahita, ” which remained
like a standard textbook almost for 2000 years and was translated into many
languages, including Arabic and Latin. 'Charaka-Samahita' deals with a variety
of matters covering physiology, etiology and embryology, concepts of digestion,
metabolism, and immunity. Preliminary concepts of genetics also find a mention,
for example, Charaka has theorized: blindness from the birth is not due to any
defect in the mother or the father, but owes its origin in the ovum and the
sperm.
In ancient India, several advances were also made in the field of medical
surgery. Specifically these advances icluded areas like plastic surgery,
extraction of catracts, and even dental surgery. Roots to the ancient Indian
surgery go back to at least circa 800 BC. Shushruta, a medical theoretician and
practitioner, lived 2000 years bebore, in the ancient Indian city of Kasi, now
called Varanasi. He wrote a medical compendium called 'Shushruta-Samahita. This
ancient medical compendium describes at least seven branches of surgery:
Excision, Scarification, Puncturing, Exploration, Extraction, Evacuation, and
Suturing. The compendium also deals with matters like rhinoplasty (plastic
surgery) and ophthalmology (ejection of cataracts). The compendium also focuses
on the study the human anatomy by using a dead body.
Yoga is a system of exercise for physical and mental nourishment. The origins of
yoga are shrouded in antiquity and mystery. Since Vedic times, thousand of years
before, the principles and practice of yoga have crystallized. But, it was only
around 200 BC that all the fundamentals of yoga were collected by Patanjali in
his treatise, named “Yogasutra”, that is, “Yoga-Aphorisms.” (For more
information, see Yoga Sutras of Patanjali.) In short, Patanjali surmised that
through the practice of yoga, the energy latent within the human body may be
made live and released, which has a salubrious affect on the body and the mind.
Now, in modern times, clinical practices have established that several ailments,
including hypertension, clinical depression, amnesia, acidity, can be controlled
and managed by yogic practices. The application of yoga in physiotherapy is also
gaining recognition.
[edit]Fine arts
Max Muller, a German Indologist has once declared that “ If I am asked which
nation had been advanced in the ancient world in respect of education and
culture then I would say it was –India.” Ancient India’s fine art and performing
arts attest to this fact. This find expression in music, musical instruments,
dancing, paintings and several other art forms.
Music had a divine character in India and in recognition of that the Indian
Goddess of learning, Saraswati is always shown holding a musical instrument,
namely, the veena. Likewise, Krishna is associated with ‘banshi’, that is, the
flute - a musical instrument, which traveled throughout the world from India.
Indian devotional songs and reciting influenced religious recitations in several
eastern countries, where the style was adopted by Buddhists monks. The India
developed several types of musical instruments and forms of dancing, with
delicate body movements and grace.
Paintings have remained the oldest art form as found in several cave paintings
across the globe. In India also, in places like Bhimbetka, a UNESCO declared
world heritage site, pre-historic cave paintings have been discovered. In
relatively recent times, paintings and carvings on rock had significantly
developed, and many such rock carvings have been found dating to the period of
the emperor Ashoka. Indian influences may be seen in paintings at Bamiyan,
Afghanistan, and in Miran and Domko in Central Asia. Sometimes, such paintings
depict not only Buddha but Hindu deities such as Shiva, Ganesha and Surya.
[edit]Production technology
Mechanical and production technology of ancient India ensured processing of
natural produce and their conversion into merchandise of trade, commerce and
export. A number of travelers and historians (including Megasthanese, Ptolemy,
Faxian, Huen Tsang, Marco Polo, Al Beruni and Ibn Batuta) have indicated a
variety of items, which were produced, consumed and exported around the known
world by the ancient Indians.
[edit]Civil engineering & architecture

The Indus Valley Civilization existed along the Indus River in present-day
Pakistan. The Mohenjo-daro ruins pictured above were once the center of this
ancient society.
India’s urban civilization is traceable to Mohenjodaro and Harappa, now in
Pakistan, where planned urban townships existed 5000 years before. From then
onwards, the ancient Indian architecture and civil engineering continued to
develop and grow. It found manifestation in construction of temples, palaces and
forts across the Indian peninsula and the neighbouring regions. In ancient
India, architecture and civil engineering was known as sthapatya-kala, literal
translation of which means the art of constructing (something).
During the periods of Kushan Empire and Maurya empires, the Indian architecture
and civil engineering reached to regions like Baluchistan and Afghanistan.
Statues of Buddha were cut out, covering entire mountain faces and cliffs, like
Buddhas of Bamiyan, Afghanistan. Over a period of time, ancient Indian art of
construction blended with Greek styles and spread to Central Asia.
On the other side, Buddhism took Indian style of architecture and civil
engineering to countries like Sri Lanka, Indonesia, Malaysia, Vietnam, Laos,
Cambodia, Thailand, Burma, China, Korea and Japan. Angkor Wat is a living
testimony to the contribution of Indian civil engineering and architecture the
Cambodian Khmer heritage in the field of architecture and civil engineering.
In mainland India of today, there are several marvels of ancient India’s
architectural heritage, including World heritage sites like Ajanta, Ellora,
Khajuraho, Mahabodhi Temple, Sanchi, Brihadisvara Temple and Mahabalipuram.
[edit]Shipbuilding & navigation
A panel found in Mohenjodaro depicts a sailing craft, and thousands of years
later Ajanta murals also depict a sea-faring ship. The science of shipbuilding
and navigation was well known to ancient Indians. Sanskrit and Pali texts are
replete with maritime references, and ancient Indians, particularly from the
coastal regions, were having commercial relations with several countries of
across the Bay of Bengal like Cambodia, Java, Sumatra, Borneo, and even up to
China. Similar maritime and trade relations existed with countries across the
Arabian Sea like Arabia, Egypt and Persia.
Even around circa 500 AD, sextants and mariner’s compass were not unknown to
ancient Indian shipbuilders and navigators. J.L. Reid, a member of the Institute
of Naval Architects and Shipbuilders, England, at around the beginning of the
20th century has got published in the Bombay Gazetteer(Volume XIII, Part II,
Appendix A) that "The early Hindu astrologers are said to have used the magnet,
in fixing the North and East, in laying foundations, and other religious
ceremonies. The Hindu compass was an iron fish that floated in a vessel of oil
and pointed to the North. The fact of this older Hindu compass seems placed
beyond doubt by the Sanskrit word 'Maccha-Yantra', or 'fish-machine', which
Molesworth gives as a name for the mariner's compass".
[edit]Games & Sports
Several games now familiar across the world owe their origins in India,
particularly, the games of chess, ludo (including ladders and snake), and
playing cards. The famous epic Mahabharata narrates an incidence where a game
called Chaturang was played between two groups of warring cousins. The age when
epic Mahabharata was written is variously dated around 800 BC to 1000 BC. In
some form or the other, the game continued till it evolved into chess. H. J. R.
Murry, in his work titled “A History of Chess”, has concluded that “chess is a
descendant of an Indian game played in the 7th century AD”. The Encyclopedia
Britannica states that “we find the best authorities agreeing that chess existed
in India before it is known to have been played anywhere else.”
The game of cards also developed in ancient India. Abul Fazal was a scholar in
the court of Mughal emperor Akbar. In his book, “Ain-e-Akbari”, which is a
mirror of life of that time, records game of cards is of Indian origins.
Martial arts by the name of Kalaripayattu were a native of Kerala, a state of
India. Kalaripayattu consists of a series of intricate movements that train the
body and mind.
[edit]External links
History Of Indian Science & Technology
Ancient India's Contribution to World's culture
Indian physics
Seafaring in ancient India
Retrieved from
"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science_and_technology_in_ancient_India"
Categories: History of science | History of India | Science and technology in
India

uppuma

[/tscii:efd31ea578]

[Idiappam]

Hi uppuma, don't believe half what wikipedians say! The tales are written by any one who have access to the wiki. And wiki admits some tales are just hear-say. Your quote is taked from another Vedic propaganda site and fixed up for wikipedia!

Good luck!

[Uppuma]

[tscii:7131b4ad22]Friends,
I got this from one of my Archives downloaded, without the source, a beautiful view of Vedic Avathars of Lord- Vishnu, which is linked to Darwin’s Theory, and we feel how Great is Indian Vedic Civilisation from 5000 years or earlier.

உயிரியல் கொள்கையாக விளங்கும் டார்வின் கோட்பாட்டை விளக்குவதாய்த் திருமாலின் 10 அவதாரங்கள் அமைந்துள்ளன. நீரில் வாழும் உயிராக மச்சாவதாரம், நீரிலும் நிலத்திலும் வாழும் தன்மையுடைய உயிராக கூர்மவதாரம், நிலத்திலே மட்டுமே வாழுகின்ற தன்மையுடைய விலங்காக வாரக அவதாரம், பிறகு விலங்கும் மனிதனுமாக நரசிம்ம அவதாரம், அதன் பின்னரே வளர்ச்சி அடைந்த முழு மனிதனாக கிருஷ்ணன், இராமன் அவரதாங்கள்.

அதில் மனிதனை நெறிப்படுத்தும் தத்துவங்களை மீறிய ஒரு விஞ்ஞான அதிசயம் பொதிந்து கிடப்பதுதான் முக்கியம். உயிர்களின் வளர்ச்சியை பரிணாமப் படிகளாக உலகுக்கு அறிவித்த டார்வின் சித்தாந்தம் இந்துமத இதிகாசங்கள் பொருந்தி இருப்பதைக் காணலாம்.
டார்வினுக்கு நமது இந்து மதத்தில் உள்ள 10 அவதாரங்களைத் தெரிய வாய்ப்பு இல்லை. ஆரம்பத்தில் உயிரனங்கள் தண்ணீரில் தோன்றியது. பிறகு அதே உயிரினம் தண்ணீரிலும் நிலத்திலும் வாழும் தகுதி பெற்றது. அதன் பிறகு நிலத்தில் வாழும் விலங்குகள். அடுத்து படிப்படியாக அந்த விலங்குகள் வளர்ச்சி பெற்று குரங்காகி அதிலிருந்து மனிதன் தோன்றினான். இந்த மூன்று அவதாரங்களை கவனித்தால் டார்வின் விஞ்ஞானியின் பரிணாமக் கொள்கையோடு ஒத்துப் போகிறது. இங்கேயும் செல் [ஜீன்] விஷயம் தெரிகிறது. மனிதனுக்கு அவனது ஜீன்கள் என்ற ஜீவ அணுவில் ஏற்கனவே எல்லாம் கற்றுக் கொடுக்கப்பட்டிருக்கிறது. எதை, எந்த காலகட்டத்தில் அவன் கண்டுபிடிக்க வேண்டும் என்ற விதி ஏற்கனவே நிர்ணயிக்கப்பட்டுள்ளது. அப்படித்தான் இருக்கவேண்டும் என்ற விதி. அதன்படிதான் மனித குலம் வளர்ந்து வருகிறது என்கிறார்கள் ஆராய்ச்சியாளர்கள்.
மீனில் ஆரம்பித்த அவதாரம் 5-வது அவதாரமாக வருவது வாமன அவதாரம். வாமன அவதாரம் என்பது விஞ்ஞான ரீதியாக பரிணாம வளர்ச்சியில் மிகச் சரியானது. இந்துமத இதிகாசங்கள் ஆயிரக்கணக்கான ஆண்டுகளுக்கு முன்பே அறிந்து வெளியிட்டுள்ள அறிவியல் செய்தி.
மற்ற அவதார புருஷர்களைவிட இவர் குள்ளமானவர்! நான்கு அவதாரங்களை அடுத்து மிகச் சரியாக விடுபட்ட [ மிஸ்ஸிங் லிங்க் ] இந்த குள்ளமான வாமன அவதாரம். விஞ்ஞானத்திற்கு ஒரு முன்னோடியாக இருக்கிறது.
''மிஸ்ஸிங் லிங்க் ''என்பது உயிரின வளர்ச்சிப் படிகளில் அடிக்கடி உபயோகிக்கப்படும் ஒரு சொல். '' விட்டுப்போன கண்ணி '' குரங்கிலிருந்து மனிதன் தோன்றினான் என்று விஞ்ஞானம் ஒப்புக் கொண்டாலும் குரங்குக்கும் மனிதனுக்கும் இடையில் ஏதோ ஒன்று இருக்கிறது. அந்த மிஸ்ஸிங் லிங்க் எதுவென்று விஞ்ஞானிகள் அவ்வப்போது தலையை பிய்த்துக் கொள்கிறார்கள். ஆனால் குரங்குக்கும் மனிதனுக்கும் உள்ள உருவ ஒற்றுமையைப்
பார்த்தால் விடுப்படவில்லை என்பது தெளிவாகுகிறது.
டார்வின் சித்தாந்தப்படி உயிர்கள் தண்ணீரில்தான் உருவாயிற்று என்று 200 ஆண்டுகளுக்குமுன்னால்தான் ஆச்சரியமாக கண்டறியப்பட்டு. இந்து மத இதிகாசங்கள் ஆயிரக்கணக்கான
ஆண்டுகளுக்கு முன்னமே முதல் அவதாரமாக 1.' மச்ச அவதாரம்' என்று மிகச் சரியாக காட்டியுள்ளது.
2. 'கூர்ம அவதாரம்' [மை வடிவம்].
3. 'வராக அவதாரம்' 4.காட்டுக்கு ராஜாவான சிங்கத்திற்கு 'சிம்மாவதாரம்'.
5. மிருகங்களிலிருந்து முதுகுத் தண்டு நிமிர ஆரம்பித்த குள்ள ஜீவனான 'வாமன அவதாரம்.
6வது பரசுராம அவதாரம், 7வது அவதாரம்
இராம அவதாரம் 8வது பலராம அவதாரம்.
எல்லாமே மனிதன் சாதாரணக் கருவிகளான வில்
ஈட்டி, கோடாரியை பயன்படுத்திய காலகட்ட அவதாரங்கள்!
A beautiful application of SCIENTIFIC idea on Ancient Indian HERITAGE, and Valluvar refers the Vamana Avatar, and Paripadal of Sangam Lit. gives complete Ten Dasavahara.
Uppuma.
[/tscii:7131b4ad22]

[bis_mala]

Vedic Avathars of Lord- Vishnu,

Vishnu was one of the lesser gods in the Vedas, and researchers say that the story of his avathars is puranic. So your phrase "vedic avatar" is incorrect, unless you are trying to "rectify" for yourself what has already been written/said in the Vedas.

[Sudhaama]

Vedic Avathars of Lord- Vishnu,

Vishnu was one of the lesser gods in the Vedas, and researchers say that the story of his avathars is puranic. So your phrase "vedic avatar" is incorrect, unless you are trying to "rectify" for yourself what has already been written/said in the Vedas.

Dear Ms bis_mala,

I have high regard for you, because of your rich and worthwhile postings in general.... So I am unable to believe whether you say so, on Vedas.!!!!!

If you personal belief on Vedas is... that Vishnu is INFERIOR TO OTHER GODS.. Well I will not comment... It is your PERSONAL-BELIEF... You have every right to have your own... especially because...

...Out of all the Holy-Scriptures in the world.... it is the Vedas only... which render full freedom for the followers to adopt His / Her Own path... as per his own Contentions, Assumptions or belief.

And if your personal Faith out of all the various Vedic-Gods is other than Vishnu... then too I will not Comment... It is your Personal Faith applicable only to you and similar others... and NOT ALL of the Vedic-followers.

So to say...You can say Lord Shiva is supreme... or Kali-devi is supreme...or Muruha is Supreme.... and so on.... as per your personal faith and belief. NOTHING WRONG TO SAY OR BELIEVE SO.... because Vedas accomodate for such varied contentions.

But please don't say that Vedas say as per your personal faith... SO CHEAP ON VISHNU.... .No No. Not at all.

Vedas do not denigrate Vishnu as you say.... but Quite contrary... as the SUPREME. ... How?

Veda Aham Etham Mahaantham ... Dhatha ...Chakra-Pravidhwan ...Tham Evam Vidhwan Amritha Iha bhavathi... Na Anya Pantha ayanaaya Vidhyathae.... Naraya Parabrahma thathvam Narayana Parahga... Naraana Paro Jyothi Athman Narayana Paraha.... Yachxcha Kinchith Jagath Sarvan dhrusyathae Srooyathepe va antha bahischa thath sarvam Vyapya Narayana Sthithaha....At the commencement and end of Vedic chanting, We say HARIHI OHM Why? (I hope you know the meaning; so I have not elaborated)

Vedas say clearly... that the Supreme God is One... He exhibits Himself in the Form and Name you choose....

...One Supreme God created other Gods, and residing within them, bestows grace through them.

Radically conforming to Geetha, God can be worshipped in either of the following four methods..

(1) Any one or the other Gods of several forms....ONE IN ALL.SHAPES... as propogated by Sri Sankaracharya

(2) One Supreme God in the UNIFIED FORM...containing all the other Gods within.... ALL IN ONE SHAPE.... as propogated by Ramanujacharya.

(3) Any form of God of ONES OWN MAKING...even an Ordinary Stone... if one beieves it as God and worships so.... God enters even that stone and renders Grace to that individual devotee... HONOURING HIS / HER FAITH.

(4) Cosmic-Abstract...SHAPELESS FORM...Invisible God... Accessible by meditation.

In brief... it is ONLY THE INDIAN HERITAGE... which renders abundant freedom and Options to the followers of varieties and hues...

..which fact has been acknowledged by one and all the Open-minded Global Scholars of different Faiths and various National Heritages.

[KoH]

In brief... it is ONLY THE INDIAN HERITAGE... which renders abundant freedom and Options to the followers of varieties and hues...

...as acknowledged by one and all the Open-minded Global Scholars of different Faiths and National Heritage.

Then why the hell Graham Staines and Sons were burnt alive? What happens to Muslims? How about the Buddists? Which Indian Heritage are they?

[indian224080]

In brief... it is ONLY THE INDIAN HERITAGE... which renders abundant freedom and Options to the followers of varieties and hues...

...as acknowledged by one and all the Open-minded Global Scholars of different Faiths and National Heritage.

Then why the hell Graham Staines and Sons were burnt alive? What happens to Muslims? How about the Buddists? Which Indian Heritage are they?

This is similar to how the saviors of tamil culture throw eggs and broom sticks over other people.
This is also similar to how a Terrorist organization in Sri Lanka is killing/Butchering Muslims considering them as Non-Tamil.
Also similar to 56 hindus burnt alive in a train.

[Sudhaama]

In brief... it is ONLY THE INDIAN HERITAGE... which renders abundant freedom and Options to the followers of varieties and hues... .as acknowledged by one and all the Open-minded Global Scholars of different Faiths and National Heritage. Then why the hell Graham Staines and Sons were burnt alive? What happens to Muslims? How about the Buddists? Which Indian Heritage are they?

The Massacre of Graham Staines along with innocent children, is HIGHLY INHUMAN... One of the WORST CRIMES OF HUMANITY.... an UTTER SHAME to Indian Nation... as well as a Grave INSULT TO INDIAN HERITAGE...

Indian Scriptures and Heritage... neither approves nor even relent to the least.... on such TURANNICAL ATROCITIES to anyone...

...especially to THOSE NOBLE SOULS.... who were rendering Yeoman Social service Indian Humanity...

Instead of expressing our Gratitude and appreciation, what has been meted out to them in return...Bestial Fanaticism... IT IS UNPARDONABLE..

Muslims Christians and the people of such other faiths too are part of Indians...

...but Christians are of Israel-Heritage and Muslims are of Saudi-Arabian Heritage

Indian Heritage comprises of Vedic-faith, Budhism, Jainism, Sikhism and such other faiths which originated from the Indian Soil.

[KoH]

As you can see it from the poster Indian224080 the Indian Heritage is well displayed?

You said "...Out of all the Holy-Scriptures in the world.... it is the Vedas only... which render full freedom for the followers to adopt His / Her Own path... as per his own Contentions, Assumptions or belief."

And I asked why the followers of the Vedas don't tolerate others as the history shows as well as the present!

If you say that the Muslims are of Saudi heritage then the Christians are of European and not of Israel. Muslims and Jews follow the Brith and Christians don't! Muslims and Jews don't eat pork but Christians do! I think Indians also eat pork, but I am not sure. Perhaps you know it better.
All these three religions are monotheistic and go back to Abraham! For the Jews the Old Testamnt counts and for the Christians The New Testament is important!

And from my personal point of view it is the man who creates god and religion and all the athrocities.

Though Buddism is of Indian origin what happened to it on Indian soil?

That is the reason why I don't accept your vedic faith!

[indian224080]

I apologise if i have misled you. My point was Be it any religion violence is common. We cannot say he is a fanatic just because he is a follower of vedic life.
Violence has beeen done by Jews,Muslims,Xians, Hindus and any/all religion in this world.

[KoH]

If the Religions are so violent then why to follow any? It is the man who is violent, it is the man who is religious, it the man who makes religion and it is the man who wages war; also in the name of God as Irak shows! It is a human nature to abuse and being abused!

I for my self tolerate every religion but accept none! Jesus was Good, Martin Luther King another Good, Mahathma the only Great! He is the one and only Indian Heritage I accept!

[Sudhaama]

"indian224080"

// You said "...Out of all the Holy-Scriptures in the world.... it is the Vedas only... which render full freedom for the followers to adopt His / Her Own path... as per his own Contentions, Assumptions or belief."
And I asked why the followers of the Vedas don't tolerate others as the history shows as well as the present!//

Yes. That is the RIGHT POINT... which the Fanatic Hindus has to Question themselves and answer to not only to Fellow-Indans but also to the entire Humanity as well as to God....Rather they have to INTROSPECT.

Some people easily forget... WHAT FOR THE RELIGIONS DO EXIST?

Primarily to self-inculcate at every stage and moment in Life... that there EXISTS A SUPER-HUMAN POWER ruling over and admonishing the Mankind...CONSTANTLY...

"Oh Man! I sent to Earth several Great Apostles or Prophets or Divine-Messengers like Abraham Moses, Jesus-Christ, Mohammad,
Budha, Mahaveer, Guru-Nanak-dev... and so on ... of other Religions...

... as well as Nayanmars, Mahans like Pattinaththaar, Arunagirinathar, Ramalinga Valhlhalaar, Alwars, Rishis, Acharyas...

...as also God Himself in several Awatars of Vishnu and Siva.

What for they came down to Earth?... Just to preach or advocate TERRORISM OR VIOLENCE?... Culminating in Social-Chaos?

ALL RELIGIONS ....WITHOUT EXCEPTION... PREACH ONLY NON-VIOLENCE.... as well as UNIVERSAL-BROTHERHOOD SPIRIT of Global-Humanity. Even the Holy Koran preaches so....

But the pity is... similar to the misinterpretations of the Original texts of other Religious Scriptures including the Vedas by the Hindus...

... Some Muslims too have mis-interpreted the HIGH SPIRIT of Koran and practicing Violence based on suich misconstruitions.

For example...the Holy Koran states...KAAPHIR HAI WOH, JOE BANDHAE NAHI ISLAAM KAE

...Which means..."The Non-Followers of my Divine- Message from God named Islaam... are KAAPHIRS... the Atheists (God's Opponents/Enemies)

The Prophet Mohammad meant in the good sense... pinpointing on a section of the then Arabian people who ignored to hear His holy message, discouraged and laughed at the followers...

.. and finally pelted stones on the SAL (Divine-Messenger Mohammad) forcing Him to shift away from Mecca to Medina.

The prophet meant those narrow-minded people whom He named as KAAPHIR... and waged a Holy-war against them ... named as JEHAD.

But some Muslims now-a-days have misinterpreted this Holy message... attributing to ALL THE NON-MUSLIMS...

... treating them equal to Satan... God's Enemy..

...which tendency may lead the Humanity towards Stone-age.

//All these three religions are monotheistic and go back to Abraham! For the Jews the Old Testamnt counts and for the Christians The New Testament is important!//

Even within Christianity there are several Sects like Catholic, Protestant, Pentacoste, Seventh-day-adventist, Jewish etc.

Amongst Muslims... Shia, Sunni...etc.

Budhist... Mahayana, Heena-yanma... etc. Similarly amongst Hindus too....

But all such different sects of Christians are named commonly as Christians... because basically they follow the Holy Bible... as their BASIC-SCRIPTURE ... be it the Old Testament or the New Testamant.

Similarlty all the so called Budhists follow commonly the Dhammapada....

... and all the Hindus follow the Divine Vedas... irrespective of individual Sects or Divisions. and Varied Sub-Faiths

//And from my personal point of view it is the man who creates god and religion and all the athrocities//

No No... all the Religions are the creation by God...

Creation by Man... is the ATTROCITRIES AND SELF-ANNIHILATION...

...KILLING HIS PEACE OF MIND...as well as Huge destroyal of Earthly Wealth....

...the Common-Treasure belonging to the Global Humanity..

//Though Buddism is of Indian origin what happened to it on Indian soil? That is the reason why I don't accept your vedic faith!//

Will you please Clarify? What do you mean by this?

//I apologise if i have misled you. My point was Be it any religion violence is common. We cannot say he is a fanatic just because he is a follower of vedic life.. Violence has beeen done by Jews,Muslims,Xians, Hindus and any/all religion in this world.//

Violence is MAN-MADE....and Out of Purview and Scope of ANY RELIGION.

... A Suicidal approach... far contrary to the purpose and Invaluable messages

of Divine-Scriptures like the Bible, Koran, Dhammapoada and Vedas.

...conveyed by ONE GOD for the benefit of the High-Wisdom Soulful birth, named Earthly-Humans.

[Uppuma]

Dear Koh,

No Civilised Person would support violence on Indiviudals, but read Bible- it is the order by God and Prophets to destroy God Worship places, and it is repeated several times.

Now, KOH- it is equally Violent in THE Activity of Church to convert mainly the Economically weaker and low educated class all over the world, and the method used is highloy objectionable.

If Conversion is banned, even the terrorism from Arab- due to oppostion to this Prostylisation would minimise.

I feel that each Religion should respect others, and refrain from commenting and converting.

Church planted Maxmuller to mistranslate Vedas and we see lot of our friends use these wrong translations.
Vedas and Bible etc., belong to that period, we could pick Good portion and live by it without distrubing others.
uppuma

[KoH]

[quote="Uppumaa"If Conversion is banned, even the terrorism from Arab- due to oppostion to this Prostylisation would minimise.

I feel that each Religion should respect others, and refrain from commenting and converting. [/quote]


And if the Vedic Faith is also banned then the Indians can be freed from their cuffs called Caste System! Don't you agree?

It is easier for the poor and those on the bottom of the society to try another god as their god so far is not kind enough, isn't it? This is also the reason why people pray to god or call for god in times of trouble!

If a Brahmin can and will sit, eat and drink on the same table, plate and glass, give his sons and daughters to those of Shudras and Dalits then only I will blieve in the Vedic Faith. And this point is beyond your immagination!

[KoH]

And from my personal point of view it is the man who creates god and religion and all the athrocities//

No No... all the Religions are the creation by God...

Creation by Man... is the ATTROCITRIES AND SELF-ANNIHILATION...

...KILLING HIS PEACE OF MIND...as well as Huge destroyal of Earthly Wealth....

...the Common-Treasure belonging to the Global Humanity..
All the religions have only one common goal - to make people slave to god!
But the Vedic faith does not only make the people slave to God ... Not only to God. It makes also some equal as gods and all others slave to this wannabe semi gods!

[Uppuma]

Dear Friends,

KOH Feelings against Casteism is OK, If anyone visits Tamilnadu Villages- it is not Brahmins who practice Untouchablity, mostly by Upper Caste Non-Brahmins, and Vedas has nothing to do with it.

If we go by critical datings accepted Geetha and Manusmrithi are dated to 100CE, Tholkappiyam to 100BCE, and Tholkappiyam has 4 Varnas, and denying of education to 4th Varna and all. Tholkappiyam gives regard to Sathi, where as Manusmrithi do not.

SO, Casteism has nothing to do VEdas, and Visit any Hotels in Cities all eating commonly.

Vivekanand has been acepted as reverred Rishi. and he was not a Brahmin.

CaSTEISM IN Tamilnadu has Grown in much higher Pace in Tamilnadu in the Last 40 years of Regional Party ruling.

Hinduism has absorbed the good points of Buddism and hence it moved out, and got onto worshipping of Buddah which was his Teaching.

[bis_mala]

Mr Uppuma:
Isn't there anything better to write than brahmin, caste and untouchability? Why attack upper caste hindus?

Do not try to propagate your views of dating Tamil Literature. by writing on it everywhere! Tolkaapiyam date is discussed in a special thread devoted to it. Discuss it there. Any problem with that please?

[Sandeep]

Castiesm is followed by all and everybody irrespective of he is a brahmin, forward caste or backward caste.

Sad part is unlike in the past today people understand that there is no basis for caste system and still practice it. As is said you can teach the ignorant but what to do with those who act ignorance.

[bis_mala]

Large-Hearted INDIAN-HERITAGE .....Exemplary for MANKIND.

That being the title of this thread given by Uncle Sudhamaa, one would have expected exemplary things in the Indian Heritage to be discussed.
Examples to other nations of the world!! to other cultures!!

Large- hearted!! Exemplary!!

[indian224080]

Dear Friends,

KOH Feelings against Casteism is OK, If anyone visits Tamilnadu Villages- it is not Brahmins who practice Untouchablity, mostly by Upper Caste Non-Brahmins, and Vedas has nothing to do with it.

If we go by critical datings accepted Geetha and Manusmrithi are dated to 100CE, Tholkappiyam to 100BCE, and Tholkappiyam has 4 Varnas, and denying of education to 4th Varna and all. Tholkappiyam gives regard to Sathi, where as Manusmrithi do not.

SO, Casteism has nothing to do VEdas, and Visit any Hotels in Cities all eating commonly.

Vivekanand has been acepted as reverred Rishi. and he was not a Brahmin.

CaSTEISM IN Tamilnadu has Grown in much higher Pace in Tamilnadu in the Last 40 years of Regional Party ruling.

Hinduism has absorbed the good points of Buddism and hence it moved out, and got onto worshipping of Buddah which was his Teaching.

Uppuma,
No use explaining some things. We now see Lots of happening things. Things u mentioned are natural if one watches the world with a neutral eye.
Regards
Indian224080.

[Lambretta]

Castiesm is followed by all and everybody irrespective of he is a brahmin, forward caste or backward caste.
Exactly! :) Criticising one particular caste in this scenario & then turning it into a unilateral caste-bashing wud be unfair & double-standards!

[shambhavi]

the true mahan like ramakrishna were able to explain the unity in all religions and was beyond caste etc, nowadays many people use caste for their own selfish purposes to further their own ends. i do think india is one of the most tolerant nations where people are allowed to practise their own religion or the absence of one, the atrocities that were mentioned are not part of indian culture alone but of entire humanity as we always try to force or views on others. the mistakes of our forefathers should be corrected and their is no need to villify any particular religion or group of people.

[karuvaadu]

Dear Friends,

KOH Feelings against Casteism is OK, If anyone visits Tamilnadu Villages- it is not Brahmins who practice Untouchablity, mostly by Upper Caste Non-Brahmins, and Vedas has nothing to do with it.
BS. Wrong! Also Brahmins!


If we go by critical datings accepted Geetha and Manusmrithi are dated to 100CE, Tholkappiyam to 100BCE, and Tholkappiyam has 4 Varnas, and denying of education to 4th Varna and all. Tholkappiyam gives regard to Sathi, where as Manusmrithi do not.
Hmm. younger than the bible? Follow Mala's advice!


SO, Casteism has nothing to do VEdas, and Visit any Hotels in Cities all eating commonly.
pecunia non olet! What about your private houses?


Vivekanand has been acepted as reverred Rishi. and he was not a Brahmin. Does it mean that each Brahmin is a rishi?


CaSTEISM IN Tamilnadu has Grown in much higher Pace in Tamilnadu in the Last 40 years of Regional Party ruling.
Higher pace than what? All India? What do you mean by regional party?


Hinduism has absorbed the good points of Buddism and hence it moved out, and got onto worshipping of Buddah which was his Teaching.This is the lie of the year! Hinduists became buddists. I am rolling on the floor laughing! No Idol worshiping, No God Theorie, No Animal Sacrifice and absolutely against the Geetha teaching meaning pacifism!

How I love genuine remarks! :rotfl:

[bis_mala]

Dear Koh,

No Civilised Person would support violence on Indiviudals, but read Bible- it is the order by God and Prophets to destroy God Worship places, and it is repeated several times.

Any violence advocated in our Vedas, uppu? Any special mantras in Vedas invoking blessing of One without a Second to overcome enemies? Who were the Dasyus?


I feel that each Religion should respect others, and refrain from commenting and converting.

I would add offensively commenting and forcibly or by deceit converting



Church planted Maxmuller to mistranslate Vedas and we see lot of our friends use these wrong translations.
Vedas and Bible etc., belong to that period, we could pick Good portion and live by it without distrubing others.
uppuma

Nevermind who planted. You and I have no evidence. (But if you have, please come out with it). It is good for everyone to know how Max Muller misinterpreted. Pl give the verse (original), verse (how Max M translated it) and how in each case the correction should be. Please get down to solid work for the benefit of the world of hubbers. For each verse, also show the relevance to Indian exemplary and large-hearted heritage. My thanks in advance for the wonderful job you are about to embark upon......

[abbydoss1969]

Dear Koh,

No Civilised Person would support violence on Indiviudals, but read Bible- it is the order by God and Prophets to destroy God Worship places, and it is repeated several times.

Any violence advocated in our Vedas, uppu? Any special mantras in Vedas invoking blessing of One without a Second to overcome enemies? Who were the Dasyus?


I feel that each Religion should respect others, and refrain from commenting and converting.

I would add offensively commenting and forcibly or by deceit converting



Church planted Maxmuller to mistranslate Vedas and we see lot of our friends use these wrong translations.
Vedas and Bible etc., belong to that period, we could pick Good portion and live by it without distrubing others.
uppuma

Nevermind who planted. You and I have no evidence. (But if you have, please come out with it). It is good for everyone to know how Max Muller misinterpreted. Pl give the verse (original), verse (how Max M translated it) and how in each case the correction should be. Please get down to solid work for the benefit of the world of hubbers. For each verse, also show the relevance to Indian exemplary and large-hearted heritage. My thanks in advance for the wonderful job you are about to embark upon......

At one point Max mueller was made a defacto brahmin by tying the sacred thread . :!: But later he was disowned :?:

[indian224080]

Dear Koh,

No Civilised Person would support violence on Indiviudals, but read Bible- it is the order by God and Prophets to destroy God Worship places, and it is repeated several times.

Any violence advocated in our Vedas, uppu? Any special mantras in Vedas invoking blessing of One without a Second to overcome enemies? Who were the Dasyus?


I feel that each Religion should respect others, and refrain from commenting and converting.

I would add offensively commenting and forcibly or by deceit converting



Church planted Maxmuller to mistranslate Vedas and we see lot of our friends use these wrong translations.
Vedas and Bible etc., belong to that period, we could pick Good portion and live by it without distrubing others.
uppuma

Nevermind who planted. You and I have no evidence. (But if you have, please come out with it). It is good for everyone to know how Max Muller misinterpreted. Pl give the verse (original), verse (how Max M translated it) and how in each case the correction should be. Please get down to solid work for the benefit of the world of hubbers. For each verse, also show the relevance to Indian exemplary and large-hearted heritage. My thanks in advance for the wonderful job you are about to embark upon......

At one point Max mueller was made a defacto brahmin by tying the sacred thread . :!: But later he was disowned :?:

At one point Max and Brits were made as Supreme intellectuals by Tamil intellectuals of the Justice Party tooo..... :D.

[bis_mala]

When the Aryan Invasion Theory was first published a special group of people in India were hailing it and claiming Indo-European kinship with the Brits. Now they suddenly realised their folly and have dropped it like a hot potato.

They just did not have the brains to see far ahead then....What a pity!!

Now the question of heritage is taking a different route for them..........

[devapriya]

[tscii:edaf797a7d]Friends,

Certainnly Casteism in Hinduism is not a Pleasant one and I quote GILBERT Slater- who gives from Maxmuller, and I Quote from Tamil Translation by PanmozhiPulavar Appadurai.
ÁÛÅ¢ø ÌÈ¢ì¸ôÀðÎ þýÚ ÅÆ츢ÖûÇ º¡¾¢ Ó¨È §Å¾í¸Ç¢ý Á¢¸ô ÀƨÁÂ¡É ºÁÂò ¾òÐÅí¸Ç¢ø þ¼õ ¦ÀÚ¸¢È¾¡? "þø¨Ä" ±ýÈ ´§Ã¦º¡øÄ¢ø ¿¡õ «¨¾ «Øò¾Á¡¸ ÁÚðÐÅ¢¼Ä¡õ. ¦ÀÕﺢì¸ø Å¡öó¾ º¡¾¢ «¨ÁôÒ Ó¨Èò ¾¢ð¼òÐìÌ §Å¾ Ýì¾í¸Ç¢ø ±ò¾¨¸Â ¾ÃÓõ þø¨Ä. «Ð §À¡Ä§Å Ýò¾¢Ãâý þÆ¢¾¨¸ ¿¢¨Ä¨ÁìÌ ¾¡Ã§Á¡; Àø§ÅÚ ÅÌôÀ¢É÷ ´Õí§¸ ÌØÁ¢ Å¡Æ, ´Õí§¸ ¯ñ½ô ÀÕ¸ò ¾¨¼ Å¢¾¢ìÌõ ±ó¾î ºð¼§Á¡; Àø§ÅÚ º¡¾¢Â¢É÷ ¾õÓû ´ÕÅÕ즸¡ÕÅ÷ Á½ ¯È× ¦¸¡ûŨ¾ò ¾ÎìÌõ ӨȨÁ§Â¡; «ò¾¨¸Â Á½ ¯ÈÅ¡ø ÅÕõ À¢û¨Ç¸ÙìÌ Å¢Äì¸ ÓÊ¡¾ ¾£ìÌȢ¢ðÎð ¾£ñøò¾¸¡¾ÅḠ´Ð츢 ¨ÅìÌõ ¸ðÎôÀ¡§¼¡; ±Ð×õ «ÅüÈ¢ø þø¨Ä. «òмý º¢Åý, ¸¡Ç¢ ¸¢ÂÅ÷¸Ç¢ý «îºó ¾Õõ ¦ºÂø Өȸ¨Çô ÀüÈ£§Â¡; ¸ñ½É¢ý º¢üÈ¢ýÀì ¸Ç¢Â¡ð¼õ ÀüÈ¢§Â¡; .. ... §Åòò¾¢ø ´Õ ÍÅÎ Ü¼ì ¸¢¨¼Â¡Ð. ¸¼×ÙìÌâ Á¾¢ô¨Àò ¾¦Á¦¾Éì ¦¸¡ñÎ ÀÆ¢ÝØõ ´Õ ÌÕÁ¡÷ ÌØÅ¢ý Å£õÒâ¨Á¸û, ÁÉ¢¾ þÉò¾¢ý þøÄí¸¨Ç Å¢Äí¸¢Éí¸Ç¢Ûõ ¸¢Æ¡¸ þÆ¢× ÀÎòÐõ Ó¨È ¸¢ÂÅü¨È ¾Ã¢ìÌõ ±ó¾î ºð¼Óõ «ÅüÈ¢ø þø¨Ä. ÌÆó¨¾ Á½ò¾¢üÌ ¾Ã§Å¡, ÌÆó¨¾ Å¢¾¨Å¸û Á½ò¨¾ò ¾¨¼¦ºö§š ¸½Åý À¢½òмý ¯Â¢ÕûÇ ¨¸õ¦Àñ½¢ý ¯¼¨ÄÔõ ¨Åò¦¾Ã¢ìÌõ ¦À¡øÄ¡ô ÀÆì¸ò¨¾ ¾Ã¢Å¢ì¸§Å¡ «¾¢ø ´Õ Å¡º¸í Ü¼ì ¸¢¨¼Â¡Ð. þ¨Å ¡×õ §Å¾ò¾¢ý ¦º¡øÖìÌõ ¦À¡ÕÙì̧Á Á¡ÚÀð¼¨Å." Quote frm Maxmuler “þó¾¢Â ¿¡¸Ã¢¸ò¾¢ø ¾¢Ã¡Å¢¼ô ÀñÒ”- ¸¢øÀ÷𠺢§Äð¼÷, ¾Á¢ú ¸¡.«ôÀ¡Ð¨Ã. Àì¸õ 40,41.

Friends, Barathiar has condemned people who misinterpret and talk against Inidian Heritage and Dravidians as per Burrows, Emavow,Caldwell, BishopBrown, A.L.Basham, Gilbewrt Slater, S.c.Banerji Lvaskori etc., are the people who came from with the ProtoDravidian Language and this is getting wider acceptance now.

Aryan theory is getting totally rejected.

devapriya

[/tscii:edaf797a7d]

[bis_mala]

[tscii:ac095a97ff]Friends,

Certainnly Casteism .................................................. .............wider acceptance now.

Aryan theory is getting totally rejected.

devapriya

[/tscii:ac095a97ff]


They are saying that there is something in the DNA tests carried out which scientifically supported the allegedly rejected theory still! Tell us something about it and whether we should accept or reject the DNA test results and why.

[Sandeep]

When the Aryan Invasion Theory was first published a special group of people in India were hailing it and claiming Indo-European kinship with the Brits. Now they suddenly realised their folly and have dropped it like a hot potato.

Who are these people, please clarify.

When the theory was introduced did any other group oppose it. If anyone did which group and what is their possition on AIT now.

[bis_mala]

When the Aryan Invasion Theory was first published a special group of people in India were hailing it and claiming Indo-European kinship with the Brits. Now they suddenly realised their folly and have dropped it like a hot potato.

Who are these people, please clarify.

When the theory was introduced did any other group oppose it. If anyone did which group and what is their possition on AIT now.

Special group: writers, indologists of Indian origin, and politicians. Almost no one opposed then. You may have to read all their books and highlight the passages where they supported the theory. Enormous work.

Now some Indian historians are objecting . Many hubbers also object.

It is too time-consuming to go into details. Furthermore, forum rules prohibit any such discussion. on AIT.

If you know sufficiently about this topic, you may either accept or reject the statement outright.

Devapriya wrote:

Friends, Barathiar has condemned people who misinterpret and talk against Inidian Heritage and Dravidians as per Burrows, Emavow,Caldwell, BishopBrown, A.L.Basham, Gilbewrt Slater, S.c.Banerji Lvaskori etc., are the people who came from with the ProtoDravidian Language and this is getting wider acceptance now.

Aryan theory is getting totally rejected.

Suggest you discuss with Devapriya, who may have the details. Just pm her. You can have a sweeet nice discussion on AIT privately. I am in fact trying to find out and learn from her on DNA. She is more knowledgeable, it appears to me. She is also the latest on the scene.
I had a bit of notes on AIT which I had thrown into the waste-paper basket.

[Sandeep]

I accept your clarified statement.

But isnt it because today we have better understanding of the sciences related to researching into history and moreover todays historians are not burdened with the limitations imposed by 19th century western thinking. I read somewhere that in 1st half of 19th century if any one made any statement differing from biblical history he was considered mislead.

Anyway too much of the topic and hence rest my case here :)

[Sandeep]

ONE SHORT QUESTION

Can anyone please explain what he/she mean by saying "Large-Hearted INDIAN HERITAGE"

[bis_mala]

I accept your clarified statement.

But isnt .................................................. ........ 1st half of 19th century if any one made any statement differing from biblical history he was considered mislead.

I have no info. on this. If you say so, you must be right!! I did Empire history for SPM. Now can't remember on this point. For degree, economic history, Malayan History. Later Legal History.


Anyway too much of the topic and hence rest my case here :)

That's why, may be you can pm Devapriya. Thanks

[bis_mala]

ONE SHORT QUESTION

Can anyone please explain what he/she mean by saying "Large-Hearted INDIAN HERITAGE"

Magnanimous?
Accepting even the failure of good conduct in others?
Accommodating and Forgiving transgressions

[Sandeep]

...but Christians are of Israel-Heritage and Muslims are of Saudi-Arabian Heritage

While the religions of Christianity and Islam are not part of Indian Heritage, doesn't the followers of these religions share the same Heritage as other Indians. Again isn't the mughal empire, architecture, culture part of Indian Heritage. How about the colonial past of India.

Specifically does Taj Mahal, Red fort, Parliament house, Rashtrapati bhavan, India gate and many many architectural splendors encompass Indian heritage. How about the art forms like Opana & Dhappukottu (Muslim), ChavuttuNadakam (Christian)? Arent they also integral part of Indian Heritage?


Indian Heritage comprises of Vedic-faith, Buddhism, Jainism, Sikhism and such other faiths which originated from the Indian Soil.

I am quiet confused to find "Vedic-faith" instead of Hinduism in this list. Can you please explain.



Magnanimous?
Accepting even the failure of good conduct in others?
Accommodating and Forgiving transgressions


Can we see these qualities in the about mentioned aspects.

[bis_mala]

You are bringing in very interesting and thought-provoking arguments and this should be a guide for this thread for some time to come for this discussion. Let's take one point at a time.

You said:

While the religions of Christianity and Islam are not part of Indian Heritage,(.......I know you are just stating uncle Sudhamaa's thought process and it is not your own...)

Is place of origin a criterion? If you go by that, Christianity did not originate in Europe. St Paul preached in Damascus but this is now under Muslim rule In the end Christianity can qualify as heritage for not even Israel, as the religion is not exclusively practised there. Your thoughts on this point...?

[Sandeep]

Is place of origin a criterion?
Place of Origin is sure a major criterion...(sentence continued)

If you go by that, Christianity did not originate in Europe. St Paul preached in Damascus but this is now under Muslim rule In the end Christianity can qualify as heritage for not even Israel, as the religion is not exclusively practised there. Your thoughts on this point...?

...but not a compulsory one as your examples show. Same way today Buddhism is more part of Chinese and Japanese Heritage than that is of India.

What these examples show us is how much the entity is integraded or becomes integral to the country.
1) Christians and Europe
Though Christ was not in Europe, the Church system (that we today know as Christianity) originated and spread from Europe. And hence though the consepts talk about non-European places the consepts itself originated from Europe.
2) Buddhism in China
Sometime back I went to a Chinese Buddhist temple. I was expecting to see the statue of Gautham Buddha. Instead I saw the statue of Goddess of mercy (An chinese goddess). There was no statue of Buddha. Thats integration with local culture.
So is Islam/Christianity (again religion not people) integrated or intertwined with India. If yes how, if no why?

[bis_mala]

Is place of origin a criterion?
Place of Origin is sure a major criterion...(sentence continued)

If you go by that, Christianity did not originate in Europe. .................................................. ............................................... Your thoughts on this point...?

...but not a compulsory one as your examples show. ..................

What these examples show us is how much the entity is
integraded or becomes integral to the country.
[list]1) Christians and Europe
.................................................. , the Church system (that we today know as Christianity) originated and spread from Europe. ...............................originated from Europe.
2) Buddhism in China
........................../color]

So. in a large-hearted heritage, Christian and Islam traditions can be accomodated. It's large- hearted.and not narrow minded. It's "hearted" and not "minded". Your response to this point please?

[stranger]

While the religions of Christianity and Islam are not part of Indian Heritage

Were they part of native American Heritage? :roll:

[goodsense]

While India remains 80% Hindu, India's Parliament is represented by one foreign womam of Italian - Christian descent and one muslim member; Abdul Kalam which we all know. How much more of a large-heartedness can one expect.

[bis_mala]

While India remains 80% Hindu, India's Parliament is represented by one foreign womam of Italian - Christian descent and one muslim member; Abdul Kalam which we all know. How much more of a large-heartedness can one expect.


mmmmm! Do not forget:

1. India did not declare herself a Hindu state. It is a secular country. This kind of argument has a legal flaw.

2. In predominant Chinese Singapore and predominantly Malay Malaysia, there are a number of Indian Ministers and other post-holders under the parliamentary system. There is no single Indian majority constituency in Malaysia. as Dr. Mahathir pointed out. They are all holding posts under the large-heartedness of the other races like Chinese and Malays. Also note that Malaysia has declared itself a Muslim country and yet....!! So, India is not the only large-hearted entity on the globe. In other words, you have not done anything that the others had not done. Right? Ah! I forget: Singapore has a President who is of Indian origin. To surpass their large-heartedness, you have to do more. Much much more!!


one foreign womam of Italian - Christian descent

If you do not want this kind of problem, then: 1. Do not go overseas. 12. Even if you go, do not look at other races and fall in love. 3. Just remain in your village and marry your aththai poNNu or maamaa poNNu. Once a woman or man of some other race is accepted as a daughter or son in law, you cannot deny her/him the perks that go with it. You cannot have the cake and eat it too!!
By marriage, she becomes your immediate intertwined really connected inseparable eternal heritage!! There is no two ways about it. According to SEAsian law she could even claim half your personal property upon divorce and probably your entire property upon demise. So just being a member in parliament is nothing.

Do not forget, it is in the books also, V K Krishna Menon even stood for elections in England. Were they large-hearted to allow that?

[Sandeep]

//So. in a large-hearted heritage, Christian and Islam traditions can be accomodated. It's large- hearted.and not narrow minded. It's "hearted" and not "minded". Your response to this point please?//

In India Christianity and Islam has always been accomodated, but not integrated. Why they are not integrated? Are we large hearted enough to accept that we are all "kafirs" or that our believes will "take us to hell". Large heartedness doesnt mean allowing others to "piss on our head".

Kalam's presidency has nothing to do with large-heartedness. It would be an insult to Indians of non-Indian faith, to say that any recognision given to them is because of Indian's large heartedness. He deserves as much rights and has as much duties.

//Were they part of native American Heritage? //

No. In case of US the native americans (and their heritage) were crushed with pure military might of the Europeans. If you see US demography magority americans are off Europeans decent and natives are a very minor %. This is entairly different from that of India where almost all are natives (irrespective of religion)

[goodsense]

Whatever it is, many of us have lived in other democracies that were slower to allow such representations.

[devapriya]

India -Hinduism and Vedas are complimenting to each other.

Tamil Sangam Literature confirms it.

As for discussion of Islam and Christianity; many Theological scholars have written those debts to Hinduism, as Religions AND Languages use Syncreteism.

[bis_mala]

Whatever it is, many of us have lived in other democracies that were slower to allow such representations.

Agreed. Not all countries reflect large-heartedness.



India -Hinduism and Vedas .................................................. .......Syncreteism.

Most importantly you are confirming all these!! Mr Solo-man, you should be commended for your endurance and tenacity. Keep it up.


Kalam's presidency ................... He deserves as much rights and has as much duties.

Yes,as you pointed out somewhere above, heritage should not be considered vis-a-vis individuals, because they have their rights under the constitution which treats everyone equally.

[Lambretta]

In India Christianity and Islam has always been accomodated, but not integrated. Why they are not integrated? Are we large hearted enough to accept that we are all "kafirs" or that our believes will "take us to hell". Large heartedness doesnt mean allowing others to "piss on our head".
Good point, Sandeep! :D
Being tolerant/large-hearted as regards religion or culture does NOT hav to mean accepting even the possible insults from other faiths/cultures. Even in the US, which is noe burgeoning into a Democracy, altho ppl. show interest in other faiths, tat doesn't mean they'd downplay their own original faith.


Kalam's presidency has nothing to do with large-heartedness. It would be an insult to Indians of non-Indian faith, to say that any recognision given to them is because of Indian's large heartedness. He deserves as much rights and has as much duties.
Exactly.


In case of US the native americans (and their heritage) were crushed with pure military might of the Europeans. If you see US demography magority americans are off Europeans decent and natives are a very minor %. This is entairly different from that of India where almost all are natives (irrespective of religion)
Exactly again! :D

[stranger]

Large heartedness doesnt mean allowing others to "piss on our head".

Sure,

Is that why Babri mosque was demolished?!

Who was pissing on whose head here, Sandeep?!

Who is our here???

[stranger]

On what legal grounds of India it was demoslished, Sandeep?!

[bis_mala]

[tscii:c821949465]
In India Christianity and Islam has always been accommodated, but not integrated. Why they are not integrated? Are we large hearted enough to accept that we are all "kafirs" or that our believes will "take us to hell". Large heartedness doesnt mean allowing others to "piss on our head".

According to uncle Sudhamaa, it must be large-hearted and exemplary for the entire mankind. We are supposed to isolate, bring up and examine such issues/items in Indian heritage.

On closer scrutiny, I would say that India's constitution also clearly guarantees religious freedom and no religion is stated as official religion.

Hence no religious majority accommodates another in a situation where all of them are equal.

Indian literature contains books on Islam and Christianity too. I do not know of books written in other languages, but in Tamil there are books (poetry) and epics of Christianity and Islam too. There are more Churches and Mosques in India than even in Christian and Muslim countries. India has a larger population of Muslims than many Muslim counties themselves.

Muslims and Christians in India are people of India who originated there.

It is a well-known fact that religions do not accommodate one another and one would claim the other to be in error. But we have to bear in mind that we on the subject of Indian Heritage and not Hindu or Vedic or Christian or Muslim Heritage. “ Vedic or Hindu “ is Indian (and also Nepalese) but not everything Indian is “Vedic or Hindu”.

Please note Hindu culture is not confined to India alone though it may have originated in India. A former Thai Prime Minister said: “We (Thais) are in so many ways Hindu”. An former Indonesian President visiting India told Vajpayee on an official function:” So much of our Bahasa Indonesia (Indonesian language) is Sanskrit and so much of our culture is Hindu based” Many Indonesian writers say that though they ceased to be Hindus and become (majority) Muslims, their cultural substratum is Hindu.(Read works of research scholars and PhD) thesis by Indonesian ). The name “Indonesia” announces it openly. Whilst foreign heritages had also become part of Indian Heritage, one must note that Indian Heritage has also extended far beyond its borders (projected influence).


For the reasons stated, I would consider Christianity and Islam fully integrated in Indian heritage. Pleae comment.[/tscii:c821949465]

[stranger]

In annai vELaanganni "temple", several Hindus go and pray. :)

[rajraj]

In annai vELaanganni "temple", several Hindus go and pray. :)


Hindus pray in Nagore durgaa also! :)

[stranger]

uNmai uNmai, raj! :)

[Lambretta]

Hindus pray in Nagore durgaa also! :)
Wow! Surprised to hear tat! :)

[SRS]

--

[SRS]

[tscii:b17c674070]
In India Christianity and Islam has always been accommodated, but not integrated. Why they are not integrated? Are we large hearted enough to accept that we are all "kafirs" or that our believes will "take us to hell". Large heartedness doesnt mean allowing others to "piss on our head".

According to uncle Sudhamaa, it must be large-hearted and exemplary for the entire mankind. We are supposed to isolate, bring up and examine such issues/items in Indian heritage.

On closer scrutiny, I would say that India's constitution also clearly guarantees religious freedom and no religion is stated as official religion.

Hence no religious majority accommodates another in a situation where all of them are equal.

Indian literature contains books on Islam and Christianity too. I do not know of books written in other languages, but in Tamil there are books (poetry) and epics of Christianity and Islam too. There are more Churches and Mosques in India than even in Christian and Muslim countries. India has a larger population of Muslims than many Muslim counties themselves.

Muslims and Christians in India are people of India who originated there.

It is a well-known fact that religions do not accommodate one another and one would claim the other to be in error. But we have to bear in mind that we on the subject of Indian Heritage and not Hindu or Vedic or Christian or Muslim Heritage. “ Vedic or Hindu “ is Indian (and also Nepalese) but not everything Indian is “Vedic or Hindu”.

Please note Hindu culture is not confined to India alone though it may have originated in India. A former Thai Prime Minister said: “We (Thais) are in so many ways Hindu”. An former Indonesian President visiting India told Vajpayee on an official function:” So much of our Bahasa Indonesia (Indonesian language) is Sanskrit and so much of our culture is Hindu based” Many Indonesian writers say that though they ceased to be Hindus and become (majority) Muslims, their cultural substratum is Hindu.(Read works of research scholars and PhD) thesis by Indonesian ). The name “Indonesia” announces it openly. Whilst foreign heritages had also become part of Indian Heritage, one must note that Indian Heritage has also extended far beyond its borders (projected influence).


For the reasons stated, I would consider Christianity and Islam fully integrated in Indian heritage. Pleae comment.[/tscii:b17c674070]

Above post is not at all accurate. Christianity did not emerge until Roman times, and Islam is mostly Muhammed's interpretation of Judaism. One can look at the biography of Muhammed and see he was a caravan driver who had extensive contacts with Jews in particular. Only after learning all the Jewish stories did he become a "Prophet." There is nothing coincidental about that. Now if you want to say Hinduism did not emerge until after Roman times, then we can also make the claim that Islam and Christianity are native to India! But that is nonsense. It is true there may be small groups of Jews who came to India as refugees to avoid persecutions. However most Indians who call themselves as "Christians" or "Muslims" are descendants of those forced to convert. The descendants may not agree, but logically speaking, Moghul invasions were not a peaceful time in Indian history! And British rule was just as bad, no need for descriptions.

[SRS]

On what legal grounds of India it was demoslished, Sandeep?!

On what legal grounds was Babri Masjid built in the first place? :lol:

[Idiappam]

On what legal grounds of India it was demoslished, Sandeep?!

On what legal grounds was Babri Masjid built in the first place? :lol:

The King owned all the grounds -- Legal enough!

"Hindus' allowed themselves to be conquered. They were splinters by the Vedic caste system, preoccupied with Vedic rituals - those that they brag, up till now, that it is good for society.. The Conquers took their lands. Why grumble now?

Still the conquers are going on - this time not for grounds but the minds of hindus.. And they are winning.. It is time the vedics rethink their 'greatness' of their Vedas.

[SRS]

The King owned all the grounds -- Legal enough!

So you will also agree, the King using stones from Shiva Temple to build Babri is legal?


"Hindus' allowed themselves to be conquered. They were splinters by the Vedic caste system, preoccupied with Vedic rituals - those that they brag, up till now, that it is good for society.. The Conquers took their lands. Why grumble now?

Yes, why grumble. If Vedic Indians had been violent and stolen the gunpowder idea from the Chinese, they could have built big ships, sailed around the world, and killed off most of the natives with smallpox.


Still the conquers are going on - this time not for grounds but the minds of hindus.. And they are winning.. It is time the vedics rethink their 'greatness' of their Vedas.

Who is winning what? The whole world has accepted the greatness of Vedas.

[bis_mala]

So you will also agree, the King using stones from Shiva Temple to build Babri is legal?

OK, so neither building the Mosque on the allegedly caused ruins of the Shiva Temple nor allegedly demolishing the Mosque are large-hearted Indian Heritage. exemplary for mankind. So we have to exclude these events as these events do not qualify to be called large-hearted or exemplary in any manner. You are supposed to look for those large- hearted, exemplary ones. SO DO NOT GO ON THE REVERSE.


Vedic Indians had been violent and stolen .................................................. ..killed off most of the natives with smallpox

This is also not an item under large-hearted exemplary I.H.

Caste-system: hmmm.. not large-hearted exemplary I.H..


a Healthy, SECULAR and NON-RELIGIOUS Simple approach of Concern to any Individual member of Global- Humanity.


So what are the items you can include under large-hearted exemplary I.H.? Nothing?