Large-Hearted INDIAN-HERITAGE .....Exemplary for MANKIND

[goodsense]

When I think of Large-Heartedness, I think of excellent role-models. By excellent role models I mean an entity of good balances, fairness determined by good judgment, accommodating(again with good judgment and worthwhileness) deserving etc. - all the positiveness it will bring forth in the interest of the common good.

[bis_mala]

When I think of Large-Heartedness, I think of excellent role-models. By ecellent role models I mean an entity of good balances.

an example? such as....

[goodsense]

I have edited my post, was going to but saw your last post poped up so quickly. If you still want examples, I will have to come back later when I have more time. Let me think.

I know Bis-mala or something close, is the name given to any Muslim saint or Guru. Are you one by chance?

[SRS]

OK, so neither building the Mosque on the allegedly caused ruins of the Shiva Temple nor allegedly demolishing the Mosque are large-hearted Indian Heritage. exemplary for mankind. So we have to exclude these events as these events do not qualify to be called large-hearted or exemplary in any manner. You are supposed to look for those large- hearted, exemplary ones. SO DO NOT GO ON THE REVERSE. [/b]

Babri was built on the site of the Ram Mandir, not Shiva Temple. I think you know that. I gave the stones from the Shiva Temple as an example. The Moghul's did not care which god the temple was for; all temples that belonged to the "kafirs" were destroyed. The stones from the formerly Hindu temple were then used to build mosques. Was the Babri Masjid built in this way? I do not know for sure, but there is a good chance.


Caste-system: hmmm.. not large-hearted exemplary I.H..

What does the caste system matter? The rest of the world was practising slavery at the time.

[bis_mala]

OK, so neither building .................... nor allegedly demolishing ........ exclude these events .......................................... REVERSE. [/b]
Babri was built on the site of the Ram Mandir, not Shiva Temple. .................................................. ....................... good chance.

Caste-system: ............I.H..
What ..............................slavery at the time.

OK, OK, so what do we have after eliminating these....for large-hearted exemplary I.H.?

[bis_mala]

.............................
I know Bis-mala or something close, is the name given to any Muslim saint or Guru. Are you one by chance?

Hahaha!. naan B.I. SIVAMALA, not bismillah.
I shortened it to bis_mala!! enna Muslim pEr maathiri theriyuthaa? I am not a muslim. I am a Saivite tradition Hindu.

[goodsense]

SRS wrote "If Vedic Indians had been violent and stolen the gunpowder idea from the Chinese, they could have built big ships, sailed around the world, and killed off most of the natives with smallpox".

I think you missed an important part here - putting the natives on "reserve" to take their lands away. With the Guns and small pox, the natives are almost extinct.

No doubt the Europeans and Arabs being the most meat-eating people, had the greatest aptitude for aggression (which undermines reason and logic) while they want the world to think of them as being more intelligent and better able to take control - run things.

[goodsense]

This "vedic indian" thing needs to be clarified. I am confused. I understand vedic teachings, but I think people here take it to mean the promotion of caste. I take it as good character/deeds or the aspiration of good character/deeds. As we know not all Vedic Indians are of good character or better than non-vedic Indians or other race or creeds or people of other religion so to speak and that includes people like me. Many of us are aspirers with the hope that by the time we leave this world, we will be perfected (gained salvation) or close to it as we strive each day.

The term, "Vedic Indians" should not imply that such a group or class of people are better over others. Thus, not all Vedic Indians follow Vedas (a path to follow) to the extent as they should. Meanwhile there are people from other religions or people with no religion that fill those gaps. So its really hard to determine.........

[bis_mala]

As we know not all Vedic Indians are of good character or better than non-vedic Indians or other race or creeds or people of other religion so to speak

No race or class of persons have been of absolute goodness from the beginning of time nor is there any assurance that they will be so till the end of the world. What is good for one side or class may be bad for the other side. To give you an example, Raja Raja Chozan's sacking of Anuradhapura in Lanka is "Tamil bravery" for me but for my Sinhala friend, it is viewed as pure aggression. Another example: His invasion of Palembang, Indonesia is similarly a military feat for me but aggression for the Sumatrans. It all depends in which angle you are looking at it and from which platform. Similarly the World War II events between Americans and Japs. All these go to fit in with the "survival of the fittest theory".
Since good and bad co-exist in and around us, rather than looking at it from the angle you are suggesting, we simply pick out the large-hearted exemplary secular Indian Heritage for this thread, and discuss.
What would you say?

[goodsense]

All men have a sense of right and wrong, but once that is overstepped, ways are being sought to rationalize or justify it (and no doubt some of these overstepping of the boundaries are justified). Survival of the fittest is no doubt one of them. But no equation from right or wrong to survival of the fittest can exist. From the examples you gave, something is needed in the middle. You can't disturb a society then claim 'survival of the fittest".

[bis_mala]

You can't disturb a society then claim 'survival of the fittest".


Very true. goodsense. "Survival of fittest" is a theory of the animal kingdom probably oft-repeated by philosophers and historians but it is by no means a justification for events in current affairs and sometimes may even be not acceptable for historical events. For another example, you have China still angry over the Nanking Massacre carried out by Japan.. Now that the Chinese are in a strong or stronger position, they would not accept "survival of the fittest" theory for their past defeat, like what you say.

We are doing very well in our analysis of causes, effects and justifications of events but alas! we have not tumbled upon even one large-hearted, exemplary secular I.H. I am getting worried .....

Btw, are you a Muslim? Who is the Muslim Saint whose name is close to bismala. I hope you do not mind giving me some info .....

[goodsense]

Interestingly, I was going to add that I wasn't really following this thread until yesterday. Apart from that, I would leave the Large Heartedness of Indian Heritage , Exemplary for Mankind" topic , to be further debated by the people of India.

No I am not a Muslim. It's obvious that you have not been reading my posts elsewhere.

[bis_mala]

Interestingly, I was going to add that I wasn't really following this thread until yesterday. Apart from that, I would leave the Large Heartedness of Indian Heritage , Exemplary for Mankind" topic , to be further debated by the people of India.

No I am not a Muslim. It's obvious that you have not been reading my posts elsewhere.

No, this is the first time I am reading your posts.
I am not in India too. We leave it to them to debate for the time being .
Bye!

[pavalamani pragasam]

[tscii:7eb9eb5321]When we say large-hearted Indian Heritage..Exemplary for Mankind, can we include our family traditions of respect for elders, necessity to look after aged parents, marriage decisions,, hospitality etc? Much of these are already in the process of exit, though!

“thaayiR siRatha kOyilumillai, thanthai sol mikka manthiramillai”

[/tscii:7eb9eb5321]

[pavalamani pragasam]

[tscii:85511bc94a]Respect for womanhood :almost all our rivers are woman’s names. (in spite of the prevalent increase in female infanticide, foeticide, bride burning, dowry harassment etc)

Respect for motherhood (in spite of the saddening trend of postponing pregnancy, disregard for raising children).

[/tscii:85511bc94a]

[Lambretta]

Respect for motherhood (in spite of the saddening trend of postponing pregnancy, disregard for raising children).[/tscii]
Not to mention possible harassment of even women who r mothers! :(

[devapriya]

[tscii:3a7e92e341]Friends
The Great Indian Heritage is confirmed in Tamil Sangam Lit., Paripadal, where a Madrai Pandya Kingdom’ capital living man says- In your Chola Uraiyur and Chera Vanchi- you wake up against the Crawl of Cock, where as in Madurai- We people wake up against the Chantings of The Lord Brahma given Four Vedas.
âÅ¢Ûû À¢È󧾡ý ¿¡Å¢Ûû À¢Èó¾
¿¡ýÁ¨Èì §¸ûÅ¢ ¿Å¢ø ÌÃø ±ÎôÀ
²Á *ý Тø ±Æ¢¾ø «øĨ¾,
šƢ ÅﺢÔõ §¸¡Æ¢Ôõ §À¡Äì Paripadaltirattu8

One of the Murga’s face is for Vedic Manthra chanting Brahmins.
Áó¾¢Ã Å¢¾¢Â¢ý ÁÃÒÇ¢ ÅÆ¡«
«ó¾½÷ §ÅûÅ¢µ÷ì Ìõ§Á;´ÕÓ¸õ, Thirumurugarupadait7:95,96
One of the Hands of Lord Muruga are for Brahmins who help people for Divine Duties.
Å¢ñ¦ºÄø ÁÃÀ¢ý ³Â÷ìÌ ²ó¾¢Âдը¸; Thirumurugarupadait7:106,7

Friends let us be proud of this Great Heritage.[/tscii:3a7e92e341]

[Sandeep]

The following are good reasons to consider that our Indian Heritage is indeed not very Large-Hearted.

1) Caste System
2) Gender bias (All these naming rivers after women and having Goddess is superficial)
3) Total disapproval of anything one doesnt cater to
- Religions
- Vedic vs Dravidian
- Languages
- New life style vs Old life style

sure we can find many more examples to say that Indians where/are not that Large Hearted.

[pavalamani pragasam]

It is the corrupt politicians who have blown casteist sentiments beyond proprtions. It is the irresponsible media people who are upsetting our sense of values & creating illusions of unreal deterioration . Changes are happening, immoality is on the rise. People ARE struggling to adapt to the very fast changes of lifestyles.

How can naming rivers after women be superficial? Does it not reflect the affection, respect our ancestors had for womanhood? Has arranged marriage system completely disappeared? In spite of nucleus households have the family system broken down?

[stranger]

.............................
I know Bis-mala or something close, is the name given to any Muslim saint or Guru. Are you one by chance?

Hahaha!. naan B.I. SIVAMALA, not bismillah.
I shortened it to bis_mala!! enna Muslim pEr maathiri theriyuthaa? I am not a muslim. I am a Saivite tradition Hindu.

SRS and goodsense do not know thamizh. So please kindly respond them in English! :)

[bis_mala]

SRS and goodsense do not know thamizh. So please kindly respond them in English!
Thanks, I was thinking goodsense knew. But he excused himself thereafter. I'll bear this in mind when I come to this history section. So kind of you to remind me.


sure we can find many more examples to say that Indians where/are not that Large Hearted.

Yes, there is difficulty in finding material to support this thread title, Large Hearted Exemplary, I.H. - somemore at one point uncle Sudhaamaa says it must be secular etc.,

As to family values etc., other nations of the world also have similar or corresponding values, e.g. Filial Piety of the Chinese .....So if others too have, then is it exemplary for mankind?

[Idiappam]

The original poster, Uncle Sudhamma meant just this.

The sanskritic 'good good stuff' is exemplary.. and the Indians are large-hearted to share it with the world..

Cranky!

[jaiganes]

North India gave yoga, vedantha and Ayur Veda while South India(Dravidian) gave Siddha philosopy and medicine to the world. As remarked earlier, family values are somewat common across almost all asian countries and even in southern europe.

[bis_mala]

North India gave yoga,

Pathanjali from Chidambaram, South India. yOga Suutram from Chidambaram. TN,

[bis_mala]

[tscii:4da657563e]Devapriya wrote:-

//Friends
We people wake up against the Chantings of The Lord Brahma given Four Vedas.
âÅ¢Ûû À¢È󧾡ý ¿¡Å¢Ûû À¢Èó¾
¿¡ýÁ¨Èì §¸ûÅ¢ ¿Å¢ø ÌÃø ±ÎôÀ''//

The naanmaRai refers to Tamiz vEtham.

//One of the Murga’s face is for Vedic Manthra chanting Brahmins.
Áó¾¢Ã Å¢¾¢Â¢ý ÁÃÒÇ¢ ÅÆ¡«
«ó¾½÷ §ÅûÅ¢µ÷ì Ìõ§Á;´ÕÓ¸õ, Thirumurugarupadait7:95,96//

The "anthaNar" referred here does not refer to any caste but to "munivars" (ascetics) generally. vELvi means beneficence. This is clear from the last word: "Orkkumme:"; here it means to meditate. Oorththal - thinking. It does not refer to the yaagam of the north.

Å¢ñ¦ºÄø ÁÃÀ¢ý ³Â÷ìÌ ²ó¾¢Âдը¸; Thirumurugarupadait7:106,7 //

Å¢ñ¦ºÄø ÁÃÀ¢ý ³Â÷ìÌ - for those who dwell upon the next world.
It is clear the word iyer here does not refer to caste.

Just like when I say : "Readers beware" - I am not referring to those who are appointed Readers in Universities!!

The meanings of these terms have changed now, Just like "naaRRam" during Sangam Age meant fragrance; now it means bad odor!! [/tscii:4da657563e]

[devapriya]

Friends,
Bismala has a Peculiar problem to deny truths, in the sense of falsehood Tamil or Dravidian pride.

Please read my post in Tirukural Thread as to what Sanam Lit. and Tirukural refers from the mouth of A Tamilnadu University official publication says.

Devapriya

[bis_mala]

Friends,
Bismala has a Peculiar problem to deny truths, in the sense of falsehood Tamil or Dravidian pride.

Please read my post in Tirukural Thread as to what Sanam Lit. and Tirukural refers from the mouth of A Tamilnadu University official publication says.

Devapriya

You have a peculiar problem in you that causes you to see non-existent problems in others. You also cannot distinguish between "truths" and "opinions" expressed by writers. Please declare what pride you are suffering from. I know of one university professor who wrote a book, was charged in court for it , unable to substantiate what he said and eventually dealt with severlely. Yet I know what he wrote was in an official publication.
Official publication does not mean a thing.

[devapriya]

[tscii:d22e0759d2]¦¾¡ø¸¡ôÀ¢Â÷ ¸¡Äò¾¢ø âÂ÷ìÌ §Å¾Óõ ÀÃÁ¡½Óõ ÁðÎõ þÕó¾É ±ýÀÐ:

*ýÀÓõ ¦À¡ÕÙõ «ÈÛõ ±ýÈ¡íÌ
«ý¦À¡Î Ò½÷ó¾ ³ó¾¢¨½ ÁÕí¸¢ý
¸¡Áì Üð¼õ ¸¡Ïõ ¸¡¨Ä
Á¨È§Â¡÷ §¾±òÐ ÁýÈø ±ð¼Ûû
Ð¨È «¨Á ¿ø ¡úò Ш½¨Á§Â¡÷ *Âø§À- ¸ÇÅ¢Âø-1
±ýÛõ ¸ÇÅ¢Âø áüÀ¡Å¢ø, ¾Á¢Æ÷ þøÄÈ Å¡ú쨸¢ý ÓüÀ̾¢Â¡É ¸ÇÅ¢Âø ±ýÛí ¨¸§¸¡¨Ç, â Á½í¸û ±ð¼Ûø ´ýÈ¡É ¸ó¾÷Åò¾¢üÌ ´ôÀ¢ðÎì ÜÚž¡ø «È¢ÂÄ¡õ.
þ¾É¡ø â ¾Á¢ú ÅÆì¸í¸¨Ç ´ôÀ¢ðÎô À¡÷ò¾ø ¦¾¡ø¸¡À¢Â÷ Å¢ÕôÀÓ¨¼ÂÅ÷ ±ýÀÐõ ¦ÅÇ¢ôÀ¨¼.
ÒÈ󾢨½Â¢ø, Å¡¨¸ò ¾¢¨½ô ÀüȢ áüÀ¡Å¢ø
«Ú Ũ¸ô Àð¼ À¡÷ôÀÉô Àì¸Óõ
³ Ũ¸ ÁÃÀ¢ý «Ãº÷ Àì¸Óõ
±ýÚ ÜȢ¢ÕôÀ¾¡ø ¦¾¡ø¸¡ôÀ¢Â÷ ¸¡Äò¾¢ø §Å¾Á¢Õó¾¨Á «È¢ÂôÀÎõ.
Devaneyan-´ôÀ¢Âý ¦Á¡Æ¢ëø Àì¸õ- ÜÍÜÕ,
here Devaneyan also goes on to show that as per Akananuru song there lived a Brahmin who was making Bangles and says there lived Brahmins away from Aruthozil as said in Pathirrupattu song-24, where brahmins called aruthozilar- an equivalent of shadakarma Nishathar- Read and TEach, Do Yagnas and do it for others and While you do yagnas receive from others so that you can give it others(µÐ¾ø & §Åð¼ø «¨Å À¢È÷ ¦ºö¾ø ®¾ø & ²üÈø)

THOLKAPPIYAM -CLARIFICATIONS.
Now as per Vedic Tradition- Marriages are classified as
1. À¢ÃõÁ Ó¨È 2. ¨¾Å 3. ÷„ 4. À¢Ã¡ƒ¡ÀòÂõ 5 …¥Ã, 6.¸ó¾÷Å 7.ᇅ
ÁüÚõ 8. ¨Àº¡º Ó¨È.
And when the Hero and his lover decides to marry instantly without the Elders permission, Tholkappiyar called that type as equivalent to kaandarvam.
Now again as per Veidc traditions kandarvas are the Musicians and musicals are called kandarva Vedas. Tholkaapiyar calls kandarvas “Ð¨È «¨Á ¿ø ¡úò Ш½¨Á§Â¡÷”, Divine men with musical instruments Yaaz.
Again Tholkaapiyar calls Music as Narambin MaRai- KAndarva Vedam.

We all of us certainly feel Casteism is wrong and blame it on Vedas and as I have stated earlier from Gilbert Slater- Vedas are not responsible for it.

Tholkappiyam has Four Varna classification in Depth and full. i.e., Branmins- Anthanars or Parppanar, KShyathrias- Arasu vamsam; Vaisiyas; Velalars, and what are all the specific Duties to them is specifically given.

Brahmins- also called Six Dutied as below-

«ÁÃ÷¸ñ ÓÊÔõ «Ú Ũ¸Â¡Ûõ

§ÀÏ¾Ì º¢ÈôÀ¢ý À¡÷ôÀ¡ý Ӿġ
ÓýÛÈì ¸¢Çó¾ «ÚŦáΠ¦¾¡¨¸*
¦¾¡ø ¦¿È¢ ÁÃÀ¢ý ¸üÀ¢üÌ ¯Ã¢Â÷. 182

§Á§Ä¡÷ ãÅ÷ìÌõ Ò½÷ò¾ ¸Ã½õ
¸£§Æ¡÷ìÌ ¸¢Â ¸¡ÄÓõ ¯ñ§¼. 3
¦À¡öÔõ ÅØ×õ §¾¡ýȢ À¢ýÉ÷
³Â÷ ¡ò¾É÷ ¸Ã½õ ±ýÀ. 4


i.e., they help people to reach Devas and Gods. Brahmins do the wedding for all is all mentioned in Tholkaapiyam to Sangam Literature and Twin Kaappiyams- Silapathikaram and Manimekhalai, a Period covering from 300BCE to 300 CE.

TholkAppiyam also refers to Sanskrit at many places, an easy reference for all is given below:
*Âü¦º¡ø ¾¢Ã¢¦º¡ø
¾¢¨ºî¦º¡ø ż¦º¡ø ±ýÚ
«¨Éò§¾ ¦ºöÔû ®ð¼î ¦º¡ø§Ä. 1
«ÅüÚû,
*Âü¦º¡ø¾¡§Á
¦ºó¾Á¢ú ¿¢ÄòÐ ÅÆ즸¡Î º¢Å½¢
¾õ ¦À¡Õû ÅÆ¡¨Á *¨ºìÌõ ¦º¡ø§Ä. 2
´Õ ¦À¡Õû ÌÈ¢ò¾ §ÅÚ ¦º¡ø ¸¢Ôõ
§ÅÚ ¦À¡Õû ÌÈ¢ò¾ ´Õ ¦º¡ø ¸¢Ôõ
*Õ À¡üÚ ±ýÀ ¾¢Ã¢¦º¡ø ¸¢ÇÅ¢. 3
¦ºó¾Á¢ú §º÷ó¾ ÀýÉ¢Õ ¿¢ÄòÐõ
¾õ ÌÈ¢ôÀ¢É§Å ¾¢¨ºî¦º¡ø ¸¢ÇÅ¢. 4
ż¦º¡ø ¸¢ÇÅ¢ ż ±ØòÐ ´Ã£*
±Øò¦¾¡Î Ò½÷ó¾ ¦º¡ø Ìõ§Á. 5
Sanskrit is always referred as vadamozhi and its words as Vadasol, if insisted I can quote former Vice Chancellor-Tho.Po,Mii. , Devaneya Pavanar, L.Rasaamanicknar .,etc., that these refers to Sanskrit. The Etymological Dictrionary Project formerly under Devaneyan and R.MAthivanan all accept that Tholkaapiyam refers to Sanskrit. Quotes are easy, and for a General Forum like here I think it is enough, a few as below.
“³ó¾¢Ãõ ¿¢¨Èó¾ ¦¾¡ø¸¡ôÀ¢Âý ±ýÚ ÀÉõÀ¡Ã½Õõ

þÂü¦º¡ø ¾¢Ã¢¦º¡ø
¾¢¨ºî¦º¡ø ż¦º¡ø ±ýÚ
«¨Éò§¾ ¦ºöÔû ®ð¼î ¦º¡ø§Ä. ¦º¡ø-880 ÁüÚõ-

á§Ä ¸Ã¸õ Ó째¡ø Á¨½§Â
Ôõ ¸¡¨Ä «ó¾½÷ìÌ ¯Ã¢Â. ÁÃÀ¢71
±ýÚ ¦¾¡ø¸¡ôÀ¢ÂÕõ ÜȢ¢ÕôÀ¾¡ø ¦¾¡ø¸¡ôÀ¢Ââý ¸¡Äò¾¢§Ä§Â âÂõ ¾Á¢Æ¸ò¾¢ø µÃÇ× §ÅåýÈ¢ Ţ𼨾 ¯½ÃÄ¡õ”. Pavanar’s Àì 40 ¾Á¢Æý ÅÃÄ¡Ú.

Many more quotes are easy, either from Tholkaapiyam or Sangam Lit. or from Scholars of Repute. As per Unbiased Scholars Tamil has almost 35% Sanskrit words Tamilised and used, which include the word- ºí¸õ º¢Åý etc., Historical Linguistics should teach us, as to whaether the referred word is used in a certain period literature, and the assumed root follows Tholkappiyar rules, and in most cases From Bismala and Fsg Sorry-No, Assumed roots do not prove anything.

Let us see much more details in coming posts.
[/tscii:d22e0759d2]

[bis_mala]

[tscii:c63cb35d1f]§Å¾õ «ÕÇ¢ÂÅý º¢Åý. ±É§Å §Å¾ ¿¡Â¸ý ±ÉôÀð¼¡ý. ¬É¡ø º¢ÅÉÕǢ §Å¾í¸û «Æ¢óÐÀð¼É. þô§À¡ÐûÇ ¬Ã¢Â §Å¾í¸û §ÅÚ. º¢Å §Å¾í¸û §ÅÚ. ¾Á¢ú áø¸û ÌÈ¢ôÀ¢ÎÅÉ ¾Á¢ú§Å¾í¸û.

¬Ã¢Â §Å¾í¸û ¾¢Ã¢À¡Î¿÷ («¨ÄóÐ ¾¢Ã¢óÐ À¡ÊÂÅ÷¸û ) ż ¿¡ðÊø À¡Ê¨Å. «¨Å º¢ÅÉÕǢ¨Š«øÄ.

§Å¾õ ±ýÀÐõ ¾Á¢úî ¦º¡ø§Ä. §Åö+ò+«õ = §Å¾õ. ¸à ¦Áö Á¨ÈóÐ ¾¸Ã ´üÚò §¾¡ýÈ¢ÂÐ.

§Å¾í¸ÙìÌ Óýۨà §À¡ø ¿¢ÈÀ¨Å ¯Å¦¿Â׸û. ¯ = Óý ¿¢üÀÐ. ¯+« = Óý ¿¢üÀ¨Å. ¯« = ¯Å (Ÿà ¯¼õÀΦÁö) > ¯À.

¦¿Â× > ¦¿º× > ¿¢„ > ¿¢„ò. (¦¿öÂôÀð¼¨Å). text ±ýÀÐõ þ§¾ ¦À¡Õû ¦¸¡ñ¼ ¦º¡ø¾¡ý. ¯À ¿¢„ò ±ýÀÐ ¾Á¢úî ¦º¡øÄ¢ý żÅÊÅõ.

§Å¾õ ±ýÈ ¾Á¢úî ¦º¡ø¨ÄÔõ ¯Å¦¿º× ±ýÈ ¾Á¢ú¡ø¨ÄÔõ żÅ÷ §Áü¦¸¡ñÎ ¾õ ¾¢Ã¢À¡Î¿÷ À¡Ê À¡¼ø¸ÙìÌô ¦ÀÂ÷¸Ç¡ì¸¢Å¢ð¼É÷.

¿¡ø§Å¾õ ±ýÈÐ «Èõ ¦À¡Õû þýÀõ ţΠÀüÈ¢ì ÜȢ ¿¡ýÌ ¾Á¢ú §Å¾í¸¨Ç. þÐ ÓýÉ÷ þíÌ º¢Ä÷ ÜÈ¢ÔûÇÉ÷.[/tscii:c63cb35d1f]

[Sudhaama]

[tscii:89ff4fe9da]quote="bis_mala

// §Å¾õ «ÕÇ¢ÂÅý º¢Åý. ±É§Å §Å¾ ¿¡Â¸ý ±ÉôÀð¼¡ý. ¬É¡ø º¢ÅÉÕǢ §Å¾í¸û «Æ¢óÐÀð¼É. þô§À¡ÐûÇ ¬Ã¢Â §Å¾í¸û §ÅÚ. º¢Å §Å¾í¸û §ÅÚ. ¾Á¢ú áø¸û ÌÈ¢ôÀ¢ÎÅÉ ¾Á¢ú§Å¾í¸û. //

¿£í¸û ¦¸¡ñÎûÇ ÓÊ×.... ¯í¸ÇÐ ¦º¡ó¾-¿õÀ¢ì¨¸ ±ýÈ¡ø, «ÐÀüÈ¢ ¿¡ý ²Ðõ ¸ÕòÐì ÜÚÅÐ ¾¸¡Ð..... ²¦ÉÉ¢ø «Ð ¯í¸ÇÐ ¾É¢ôÀ𼠯â¨Á. þóÐÁ¾õ ±ÉôÀÎõ §Å¾-¦¿È¢ ÀÃó¾-¸ñ§½¡ð¼õ ¦¸¡ñ¼Ð. «ÅÃÅ÷ ¾¡õ¾¡õ «È¢ó¾Å¡Úõ Å¢ÕõÀ¢ÂÅ¡Ú ²üÈ×õ ÅÆ¢À¼×õ ;ó¾¢Ãõ ÅÆíÌõ ´§Ã ºÁÂõ þЧÅ.

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[Lambretta]

*DIGR*
Dear Mr. Sudhaama,
Nice to see u back here! :)
For a while I was afraid u'd left the hub!
Looking fwd to see u resume posting in this thread....unftly tho, I can't read tamil! :(

[Sudhaama]

*DIGR*
Dear Mr. Sudhaama,
Nice to see u back here! :)
For a while I was afraid u'd left the hub!
Looking fwd to see u resume posting in this thread....unftly tho, I can't read tamil! :(

Dear Mr. Lambretta,

I am much moved by your words of personal concern on me. Thanks a lot.

For the past few months I had to be away from you all, because of my Sickness and so have come to India for Medical-treatment... Now I am improving. But even now I am spending most of the time in bed.... Even the few postings I make here, out of Curiosity and Enthusiasm.... are only with physical pains.

However I will continue.... Your words are quite encouraging and invitive.... imbued with affection.

I will continue to do my best in our Hub.... so as to add up Happiness to my Well-wishers.... alongside my Happiness too.

Regarding my postings in Tamil, I wish you make it possible to read the Tamil script, at your earliest convenience. For your information, I, an Indian-Tamilian, learnt Telugu, Malayalam, Hindi etc .....INCLUDING SCRIPTS.... by means of Self-Tuition.... just out of curiosity and interest. Such additional knowledge is very helpful to me.

I am unable to take further pains to repost the same matter of two postings from Tamil to English. Let somebody else oblige with kindness.

And I request my friends to continue this Thread further .... ONLY IN ENGLISH.... because I initiated and intended this Thread only for discussions in English... and it is continuing accordingly so far.

No more deviations please.

With Best Wshes to one and all my Well-wisher-Hubbers,

Lovingly,
Sudhaama

[pavalamani pragasam]

My heartfelt "Get well" wishes to you sudhaama!

[r_kk]

For the past few months I had to be away from you all, because of my Sickness and so have come to India for Medical-treatment... Now I am improving. But even now I am spending most of the time in bed.... Even the few postings I make here, out of Curiosity and Enthusiasm.... are only with physical pains.

However I will continue.... Your words are quite encouraging and invitive.... imbued with affection.


Welcome back Mr. Sudhamma.
I whole heartily wish you to gain good health and actively participate in this forum with same high level of enthusiasm. Take care.
Regards r_kk

[Sudhaama]

For the past few months I had to be away from you all, because of my Sickness and so have come to India for Medical-treatment... Now I am improving. But even now I am spending most of the time in bed.... Even the few postings I make here, out of Curiosity and Enthusiasm.... are only with physical pains.

However I will continue.... Your words are quite encouraging and invitive.... imbued with affection.


Welcome back Mr. Sudhamma.
I whole heartily wish you to gain good health and actively participate in this forum with same high level of enthusiasm. Take care.
Regards r_kk

Wholehearted THANKS to the Exemplary-friend Ms. PP Madam and Lively-critic Mr. r_kk.

Yes... I will try to continue to do my best.... Let us all be Happy and avail the best advantage of our Forum.

[devapriya]

Friends,

Tholkappiyam and Sangam Literature to Mankmekhalai and Tirukural all regard Indian Heritage and its Continuance of Vedic tradtion greatly and I SHALL give them in my next posts.

Welcome Sudamaaji, look forward to your posts.

Devapriya.

[Sudhaama]

Friends,

Tholkappiyam and Sangam Literature to Mankmekhalai and Tirukural all regard Indian Heritage and its Continuance of Vedic tradtion greatly and I SHALL give them in my next posts.

Welcome Sudamaaji, look forward to your posts.

Devapriya.

Yes... Devapriya,... Anxiously looking forward to know your continuation of thoughts.... before I put forth my own... of another factor.

[dsath]

[tscii:0f382cfcaf]Hi There,
I have been following this thread with some interest and these are my own thoughts on this. :)
The Indian subcontinent is home to people of different races and culture, over a period of time. Also genetic researches prove that humans migrated and live in sympatric isolation in India and that’s the reason we are able to track our ancestors (to Middle East, Africa, Central Asia and Australia). An important point to note is that we have ancestors from all over the world; leading to the conclusion the culture we have now is a derivation of all those cultures brought in by different people at different point of time.
Claims that all of India was once Vedic (Sanskrit) or Tamil is plainly laughable.
Also claims that Vedic tradition predates the Tamil tradition and vice versa are not in the best interest of our country. History should be approached as History nothing else. We have had some dangerous outcome of what happens when history is interpreted in a particular way like World War II. So let’s discuss things just as they are or they were.
Secondly coming to the topic in question, not only Indian heritage there are lots of cultures in the world that are good examples to mankind like Japanese, Greek and many more. I think the best thing about our Indian culture is our ability to accept change and incorporate all those changes for the betterment (or determent) of our society with liberal doses of tolerance. Any culture (which had lot of interaction with other cultures) that claims it has survived untouched over the years is sowing the seeds for its own death. Surely we don’t want that to happen to our culture do we?

Thanks for reading every so patiently
Dsath.
[/tscii:0f382cfcaf]

[bis_mala]

Tholkappiyam and Sangam Literature to Mankmekhalai and Tirukural all regard Indian Heritage and its Continuance of Vedic tradtion greatly


Claims that all of India was once Vedic (Sanskrit) .... is plainly laughable.
Also claims that Vedic tradition predates the Tamil tradition........... are not in the best interest of our country

hahaha!! Deserve it!! When will kizavi Devapriya learn her lesson......?

[Sudhaama]

[tscii:1399c202f0]
GREATNESS OF INDIAN-HERITAGE ALONE.... taken-up here.

Quote : Dsath.

// I have been following this thread with some interest and these are my own thoughts on this.//

Glad.. Thanks for putting forth your independant Thoughts.... Please CONTINUE.... whatever it be... PRO OR ANTI to my Postings...

...NOT ONLY YOU..... ANYBODY IS WELCOME..... Because I intiated this Thread.... only with a healthy intention to shape it as a RICH-FORUM OF WISE-DISCUSSIONS....BACKED BY QUESTS AND CONTRADICTIONS.

// The Indian subcontinent is home to people of different races and culture, over a period of time. Also genetic researches prove that humans migrated and live in sympatric isolation in India and that’s the reason we are able to track our ancestors (to Middle East, Africa, Central Asia and Australia). An important point to note is that we have ancestors from all over the world;... ....leading..... to the conclusion the culture we have now is a derivation of all those cultures brought in by different people at different point of time.//

Well... Partly acceptable but....? The present Great Country USA is said to be the Domiciled-Nation of people from several World-Nations, and the majority from Europe and Africa.... Rather it was a CONVERGING-POINT of Toilers, Merchants and Intellectuals from all around the world, as can be ascertained from History.

Whereas it was the Opposite-factor in case of India, as has been asserted by the German and French Historians. So to say the then people from Indian-continent of those days... spread over towards different corners of the world for the sake of advancement....

...since the Indians of those days... were far-advanced by Wisdom and Culture.... EVEN DURING PRE-VEDIC DAYS.... compared to the rest of the wold-society.

Domiciled Indians got mixed-up with the locals,... subsequently returned to India or had Marital-alliances with their Motherland Indians too...

..the outcome of which we now see.... there are Burmese-Tamilian/Bengali-Indians, Sinhalese-Tamilian-Indians, Greek-Indians and the like

// Claims that all of India was once Vedic (Sanskrit) or Tamil is plainly laughable. Also claims that Vedic tradition predates the Tamil tradition and vice versa are not in the best interest of our country. History should be approached as History nothing else. We have had some dangerous outcome of what happens when history is interpreted in a particular way like World War II. So let’s discuss things just as they are or they were. //

Tamil-Culture was the most ancient.... as well as the PRIME-CULTURE OF MANKIND.... ever adopted all over the world...

... and the TAMIL LANGUAGE IS THE FIRST LANGUAGE OF MANKIND... ever spoken in comparison to multiplicity of savage-culture and their Audio-symbolic means of communications, UNWORTHY TO BE NAMED AS ANY LANGUAGE...

.. But they were the origins for several Great Classical-Languages like Latin, Greek, Hebrew etc.

By stating so.... neither those foreign Historians nor the Tamilians mean to under-rate other Cultures or Languages of the Global arena... ever in the History of Mankind...

.. But their scope is to only put forth the factual findings.

Why a German, Max-muller took special interest on India and its Culture and took pains to learn a radically alien Language Sanskrit..

.. just to understand the Vedas and the Indian-culture ( which were availble only in the Sanskrit Texts in those days)...

. is a question which can fetch the due answers by Truth indepth..

The causes of Second World-war was totally different.... not just because of diversity or Confrontation amongst Human-Races. But it was a Combat and Confrontation between different Nations.. for the sake of Competitive-advancement pursued in an INHUMAN-APPROACH... especially because of Jealousy.

Anglo-Saxanian Race... so called the British... is the admixture of several ancient Races well-advanced by Wisdom then.... But they cannot clam as the most ancient. Nor their Language can be claimed to be the Classical-one... similar to Latin, Greek, Hebrew, Sanskrit and Tamil. They do not clain so, in fact... And they accept that English is the ECCLECTIC-OFFSHOOT-LANGUAGE emanated out of several Rich World-Languages of Classical-value during that era..

Despite such a factor English is..No doubt.. the Great Language of Human-pride

By admitting the fact of offshoot-status... the British do not feel to demean their Culture and Language...since it is the undeniable History.

In brief... whatever be the Fact... by way of History and Science.... we are putting forth the factual-status here.

// Secondly coming to the topic in question, not only Indian heritage there are lots of cultures in the world that are good examples to mankind like Japanese, Greek and many more. I think the best thing about our Indian culture is our ability to accept change and incorporate all those changes for the betterment (or determent) of our society with liberal doses of tolerance.

If someone says.... that Aishwarya-Rai is beautiful.... IT DOES NOT MEAN THAT .... OTHERS ARE NOT BEAUTIFUL.... But it only means that we are discussing about that World-beauty alone..... and Nothing beyond.

At the maximum it may be deemed.... that she is "More Beautiful in comparison to some others.... if she is so compared with some other specific Ladies... as in the case of a Contest.

Similar is the case here.... we have taken up to throw our thoughts towards one specific direction only.... and so are confined to discus about Indian-Heritage....

At par with Indian Heritage there are several Global-diversities of Heritage of different World-Nations which too possess Rich-Heritage, similar to India.... But there are disputes amongst the Scientists and Historians....that the Asian-Heritage, especialy the Japanese.... is the Offshoot of Indian Heritage.

... However NO CULTURE OR LANGUAGE EVER OF MANKIND ... IS MEANT TO BE UNDER-RATED HERE... Because each and every sort of Human-culture belonging any National -Heritage has its own due values cherishable in one or the other way.

//Any culture (which had lot of interaction with other cultures) that claims it has survived untouched over the years is sowing the seeds for its own death. Surely we don’t want that to happen to our culture do we? //

Yes... Fully agreed. We do not advocate here in favour of... PURITY OF INDIAN-CULTURE... WITHOUT ANY ADOPTION OR MIX-UP FROM ALIENS.

But the INDIAN-HERITAGE IS THE SEED ... for our present Advanced Indian-Culture....

...a WISE-BLEND by means of the due adoption of a part of PARALLELLY RICH foreign cultures too....

.. matching with the ERA / Time... and Modern-outlook globally.
[/tscii:1399c202f0]

[dsath]

[tscii:2d8ef5627f]First of all thanks very much for posting a reply for my post.
While pondering about your words and the topic in question, it’s hard to accept your arguments for me at face value. Mainly because of the points below:
1. India is a relatively new country considering that we gained independence only in 1947. If you look at our heritage since 1947, all I can see is people fighting over all kinds of things ranging from geography, religion, language, politics (our parliament cannot discuss anything sanely…….most of the times it looks like people there want to prove who has the loudest voice) and even rivers. By all means we cannot accept that this heritage is an example to mankind, let alone exemplary or not.
2. Secondly if you are referring to pre British era, we (Indian subcontinent) were never one singular culture. Of course there is no denying that there was some kind of commonality, but it was not the same. A point to note is the Dravidian kinship (intermarriage between cousins). These were followed by people in the south, but not as we move North. Even when there are religious differences, Dravidian kinship is followed in South. Anthropologists have proved the practice of Dravidian kinship among Australian aboriginals. I think that is remarkable and it cannot be coincidence. So we cannot claim it was one culture or heritage and cannot claim as an example to mankind.
3. I am a tamilian and have a Father who never signs in English (its always Tamil) even though he has a remarkable command on English. On personal experience I think the blind devotion to our language blinds us from really really finding the truth abt our language. May be it was very very old, may be not. We can never find out unless we confuse our language patriotism with our language history. Tamil is a classical language and I am not against Tamil, I am just against people who prevent us finding our real ancestors in the name of language patriotism.
4. Claims like Tamil was the origin for Greek and Hebrew, without any kind of scientific backing is like living in a imaginary world.
5. Also I would like to refute the point that Indians from India migrated to other places. Spencer Wells’ genetic research has proved that Humans migrated from Africa, through the Middle East, South Asia, Indonesia and Australia. He has studied 3 groups of people in TamilNadu as part of his research. A Google search on Spencer Wells will bring you the results. So I think India is something like the USA where people from different places have crossed. Some settled, some moved on. There is some more ongoing genetic research in various parts of India. Also there was a dental research on the similarities of people in Gujarat which also had remarkable results. All these strongly prove that India was a melting point of all those culture. I also read somewhere that the Pallavas who ruled Tamilnadu long ago were actually Persian invaders ----- Amusing and interesting.
6. Last of all Indian culture is a wise blend???? Lets look at some of the factors of this so called ‘advance culture’
Women’s right – Women were not allowed to read Vedas and own property and had to bring a large dowry as a passport for a ‘good’ husband.
Caste system – Worse kind of racism practiced by any culture and still in existence. The Greek, Romans and Egyptians all followed slavery, but not untouchability.
I read the above as Sexist and racist society hardly any kind of example for anyone. Oops that’s a bit strong…………but true………….

DSath.[/tscii:2d8ef5627f]

[bis_mala]

[tscii:cd6d6284a5]
Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2006 12:22 pm
Yes, there is difficulty in finding material to support this thread title, Large Hearted Exemplary, I.H. - somemore at one point uncle Sudhaamaa says it must be secular etc.,


Women’s right
Caste system
I read the above as Sexist and racist society hardly any kind of example for anyone. Oops that’s a bit strong but true


The difficulty continues. But recently Bush visited India and said that there were many things that interested him. Perhaps we can search in his speech for materials to support this thread? I do not have the full text of the speech with me.[/tscii:cd6d6284a5]

[Sudhaama]

Mr dsath's latest posting needs a detailed reply, which i wiill take up soon.

In the mean time, I want to highlight a brief reply,... for the present,....

...so that the topic must not be allowed to go out of the way.... as I notice from its present trend.

Heritage means.... PAARAMPARIYAM... in Tamil i.e., the Ancient Culture, Code of Conduct and Life-Principles... as SET DOWN BY THE INDIAN ANCESTORS.... for the benefit of their Posterity.

It DOES NOT MEAN... WHAT AND HOW THE PRESENT INDIA IS... and its people follow as their present Culture.

Caste-discrimination, or Monarchy or some such factors of dispute...being contrary with Moral-codes as well Ethics... cannot form part of Ideology.

In brief.... HERITAGE IS THE PROVEN-IDEAL.... which by adoption in practice fetched its Rich outcome towards the broad-interests of the common Society on the whole.

I have a lot to speak on it. Please don't divert the Topic towards the present Indian-culture and unpalatable Histories...

...for which there exists other threads which only are well-relevant.
in that angle.

Here please raise up your points on what I or others speak on Indian- Heritage.....

...How our Paramparai conducted themselves, conforming to Moral-codes and Scriptures stipulated and recommended to us....

...ONLY THE POSITIVE SIDE.... Which is worthy for the present days.... Welcome.

[bis_mala]

Tamil-Culture was the most ancient.... as well as the PRIME-CULTURE OF MANKIND.... ever adopted all over the world...

... and the TAMIL LANGUAGE IS THE FIRST LANGUAGE OF MANKIND... ever spoken in comparison to multiplicity of savage-culture and their Audio-symbolic means of communications, UNWORTHY TO BE NAMED AS ANY LANGUAGE...

.. But they were the origins for several Great Classical-Languages like Latin, Greek, Hebrew etc.

By stating so.... neither those foreign Historians nor the Tamilians mean to under-rate other Cultures or Languages of the Global arena... ever in the History of Mankind...

This is well said Mr DSath!!

[Lambretta]

But recently Bush visited India and said that there were many things that interested him.
I'm dubious as to how tat cud be.......but ther seemed to be sumthing (if not many things) abt Bush tat intesrested the ppl./Govt. of AP when they invited him to his recent visit! Interested enuff for a woman ther to give him a parting kiss (on the cheek only tho!) when he visited Hyderabad.....
Neways, better not create a digr. here! :)

[dsath]

[tscii:8038d10dae]Hi there,
First of all Sivamala, I think ‘your’ ‘Well said’ were for Sudhaama’s words. Never on Earth would I dream of saying anything irresponsible like that without strong evidence.
And secondly why ever should we not make references to unpalatable history. It is a part of our PAARAMPARIYAM and I cannot understand why we should look at only the positive sides. We should learn from our history. I don’t want to divert anything from the topic in discussion. But exemplary is a very strong word and strong points are required to prove that.
It’s that our culture has some good and some not so good elements in it. If we are prepared to look at only the positive sides, then who are we fooling (ourselves I guess)?
We had to accept that things like sati existed and we should also be proud of the fact that we were able to route that out. I just hope we could do the same with the caste system. I think we had made progress like no one (in my knowledge) practices untouchability as it was practiced ages ago. But we still have a long way to go before showing the caste system the final door.
I am not denying that we had some great elements in our culture. But look at the whole picture, u never know what you see.
‘Only the positive side’ – Hmm, if we want to sing praises of anything, we can go on and on……….
I think only when we acknowledge the not-so-good elements in our history and accept it and work towards making things better and still be proud to be part of the culture can we call ourselves good.


Again and again I would reiterate the point that before Independence we were never one culture, different cultures…………………..

DSath
[/tscii:8038d10dae]

[Lambretta]

Ppl. who constantly talk of (mainly past) ills against women in socieities like India, aiming blame at Indian culture/social values dont seem to notice equally bad ills existing against women even in 'developed' Western nations! Y doesnt neone 'look at the whole pic.' in ther case too??
No doubt we did hav our drawbacks w/ respect to women's rights, but I ask, how better off is the position of women in the 'developed' West, wher women r almost always worshipped for ther youth & physical beauty alone?! Tat they r able to take equal oppurtunities in education/careers/climbing up the social ladder can be proved to be altogether a different issue in this case!
AS for women not being allowed to read the Vedas, I believe it was an aftermath.......werent ther women sages who contributed to our scriptures in the beginning? (Maitreyi, Gargi etc.)

[dsath]

[tscii:f712733d1c]No one is saying that the early civilizations in other parts of the world all gave equal respect to women. All cultures have their winning points and short falls. A point to note which i have already stated is that all cultures had slavery even the relatively new ones like the Americans indulged in Slavery. My intention here is not to score any points comparing with other civilizations (Western or Eastern).

As we make progress in all other aspects of life, it’s only fair that we expect things like discrimination based on caste, gender, etc is brought into perspective and steps taken to eradicate or at least minimize these discriminations.

Is it wrong to indulge in such daydreams????????

[/tscii:f712733d1c]

[Sudhaama]

The latest trend is leading out of the way.. towards the Overall Indian History & Culture.. which is out of relevance here...

... since the Scope here is only the Sub-topic.... on Heritage

For the rudimentary questions on the Comprehensive Indian-History & Culture.... raised here, I will handle in the relevant another thread... herebelow

..."HISTORICAL LESSONS FROM THE PAST... for the Future-India"

http://forumhub.mayyam.com/hub/viewtopic.php?p=436550#436550

Let us not make the topics under various Threads .... REPETITIVE OR IDENTICAL... DEVIATING from a specific .... Factor intended for.

[Sudhaama]

GOD WAS PARTIAL?....UNFAIR?.... in KOORMA-AWATHAARAM (Vishnu's Reincarnation as the Tortoise)?
...IMMORTAL & UNPARALLEL LESSONS.... ever for Mankind.?

Why the Asuras... the Well-known ENEMY were invited to join with Suras(Devas) to take-part in Churning the Milky-Ocean?.... and why they were denied their due share on the ultimate outcome.... the Amritha?... Does it not tanntamount to CHEATING?

What have you got to say.... PRO? OR ANTI?.... How do you justify....

What is the LARGE-HEARTEDNESS in such a Heritage?.... Lesson for Mankind?.

....Let us discuss.

[dsath]

[tscii:3b6c99965b]This is certainly interesting. If you can’t do something on your own then invite someone whom you think can do the work to help. Once you are finished then dump them. If the other person is not clever enough he loses else he fights.

Lessons: the clever one wins. Physical strength is important but equally if not more important are the neurons in the brain and how well they can respond in a given situation.

We can draw parallel situations in recent history.
The British promised to grant India self rule after the 1st and 2nd World War provided we support them with manpower in the war. What happened after that is history. If a Labour Government hadn’t been in power after WWII then I seriously doubt if we would have gained Independence even in 1947.

Anyway the morale of the story is use your brains to win over your enemy or friend……..if not then suffer for your folly.
[/tscii:3b6c99965b]

[Sudhaama]

[tscii:5c0117487c]
Does God(as per Indian-Heritage) emulate to the Humanity...a SICK-EXAMPLE ...?

.. To CHEAT AND EXPLOIT the Sub-Normals.. by CUNNING-GAME or/and FOUL-PLAY?...

...Encourages HEGEMONY and BREACH OF TRUST?

quote :"dsath"

// This is certainly interesting.

If you can’t do something on your own then invite someon e whom you think can do the work to help. Once you are finished then dump them. If the other person is not clever enough he loses else he fights.....

Lessons: the clever one wins. Physical strength is important but equally if not more important are the neurons in the brain and how well they can respond in a given situation.

Anyway the morale of the story is use your brains to win over your enemy or friend……..if not then suffer for your folly.//

If that were to be the Moral or Lesson from this Episode of Indian-Heritage.... then such a God is the LEADER-CHEATER... Pioneer setting a Bad-precedence and example to His followers to cheat and exploit others.... Especially the Weaker section of the Society.....

Then He cannot be called as God... NOR DESERVES TO BE HONOURED SO... since it is NEITHER JUSTICE BY EQUANIMITY AND FAIRNESS from the Supreme-Ruler common for the Society. Even if any Human-King performs so... He will e condemned by not only the Society but also by all the Gospels Doctrines and Holy-Scriptures..... Rather such an approach runs contrary to Indian-belief and Social Code of Practice or by any Literature or Moral-Regulations stipulated by the then Intellectuals.

So to say.... it will mean only INCONSISTENCY AND SELF-CONTRADICTION.... as also runs radically counter to the very purpose of Reincarnation..

In such a case...irrespective of the Religion behind.... is it not UNWORTHY TO BE A SCHOOL-LESSON FOR CHILDREN.?...

...Since ENCOURAGES SOCIAL-DISHARMONY ... and

...inculcates IMMORALITY at the Human-Budding Stage itself?
[/tscii:5c0117487c]

[dsath]

[tscii:d5c486377c]I am not sure of the moral ethics of this. But it should be included in the text books esp for our younger generation. The lesson to be learnt is that goodness should and will win. Its not automatic that good will always win evil, someone has to do something for it. If the evil group had the amritham then they would have brought chaos to the world and the God helped the good group. If it is labeled cunning and cheating so be it. Remember all is fair in love and war.

The generation before us did not learn the lesson from this story and that’s the reason India was under British rule for sooooooooo long. Had we used all the cunningness and cheating that is recommended by Lord Krishna then all of us would have been living in a different India now. We were waiting around saying goodness (non-violence tactics) will finally win over.

Anyway its all water under bridge now. At least the future generation should learn and employ these tactics if the need arises.
[/tscii:d5c486377c]

[goodsense]

[tscii:9b2624971e]Looking at what you both Sudhamma and Dsath, wrote, I have to say on both grounds, the British is able to make living, sustain it and still desire very much and would do all they can, to keep it that way for this long.

When principles such as those Sudhamma make reference to fail to exists in the interest of the British and overtaken by those referred to by Dsath, then they are likely to claim that you are not following your own rules and may go as far as to put other Indians with same principles who have failed to tow the line in doing what Dsath suggest. This is the politics of their survival.

We lot are a good example to sum up. They first exploited our ancestors, have them paying outrageous tax and rents, ate their food and drank their tea etc. for so many hundreds of years and when they got poor (the majority as a result of this) and were starving, they were fooled and taken to promise lands, only to find that there were worse off and was just another way to make a living for and sustain the British. After that was no longer found profitable due to various revolts, we turned into the hands of Black Dictatorship for some 50 years - since independence from them in 1966 and there seems to be no end while the British continue to benefit from all this (go to the Guyana Indians thread in missc. section) while the blacks too are making easy living off us. This is why they are envious of Indian brain and education and woud do wht they can to keep us down. We are the people that should adopt the principle put forward by Dsath. Why aren’t we? :roll: :x :o

http://jahajis.150m.com/Indo-Guyanese-Guyana-Ormila.htm

Thieves (criminals) and prostitutes belong to the lowest category and even some prostitutes can be ranked over such thieves, but I think there is a lower category than these two groups where these people truly belong. Please help me to define that category :wink:

The closest example at hand of these contrasting approaches can be seen between two PIO here:
1. Vidyaratha Kissoon
2. Myself (OB)

http://jahajis.150m.com/India-scholarships-PIO-Guyana.html [/tscii:9b2624971e]

[dsath]

[tscii:c7c36df690]Most of the current world problems were initiated when the British finally decided to withdraw to their own cocoon.
Iraq, Israel, North Korea, Pakistan, Palestine (and many more in the list) did not exist before the 1940’s. All these divisions should be rightly credited to the British. When the British finally stopped (not because they wanted to but because they couldn’t), the Americans took over. One has only to look at Vietnam, Korea and the Gulf. God knows when they will reach the ‘couldn’t’ stage. I hope its soon.
As far as Indian immigrants are concerned, we seem to be having a bit of a problem, like Sri Lanka, Guyana, Fiji to name a few.
I wouldn’t suggest that the Indian government should play an active role in these problems. The results of Indian intervention in Sri Lanka are all much evident.
If we can bring India out of the ‘Third World Status’ then may be we can attract the Indian immigrants who have settled in other countries to comeback. Something like what Israel was/is doing to Jews world over.
I can’t see any other solutions for the problems that Indian immigrants are facing world over. May be I am just being naïve.
[/tscii:c7c36df690]

[goodsense]

I am well aware of India's position - trying to get on its feet after being worn off to such an extent by the British. What I think is possible and support is for Guyana Indians to invest in their Education in India, not necessarily by scholarship only or to go back to India permanently at this time. My reasons are well known on this forum and elsewhere.

At one time I also was thinking like Vidyaratha Kissoon, willing to set aside the past and start afresh (views made publicly, accessible to the same people who tried to mis-label me, conveniently. You can ask me about this later) which lead to my friendlyness with some blacks. This only resulted to further torments .... and the Nigerians are found to be the worse type of Cobras aroud.

India is struggling to get on its own feet, why would we want to expose Indian Citizens to high risk of being Raped, Robbed and Murdered like what Guyana Indians are experiencing. This Kisson lady is not thinking. Don't know where she resides, how long she left Guyana or how old she is, but she should have some knoweldge of what has been going on in Guyana for some decades since she seems to have knowledge about Guyana's constitution.

[goodsense]

Not only for follow-up, but relates to the topic itself:

http://www.stabroeknews.com/index.pl/article_letters?id=50034975

http://www.jahajeedesi.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=1778

[devapriya]

Friends,

Europeans swindled every land they visited.

Every Religion and Civilisation in every part of the world where the Desert's Religions wnet.

Even Zorashtrism survived only in India and Jews who came to India in 700CE was never attacked for being Jews, only here.

Compare to Bible and its Racist Theories Vedas and its base are much better.

Devaprya./

[goodsense]

[tscii:d00cb7613a]"Europeans swindled every land they visited. Compare to Bible and its Racist Theories Vedas and its base are much better. "

I wonder whether freedom of speech is only granted to men to speak on such issues. Whenever I do, I am called "anti white" and such things by people of English descent here, having no regard for our horrible history at their hands ad first hand experiences. Then you hear them talk about things like etiquette as if they are so superior, refusing to consider what is involved in being a swindler and dwindler.

It looks like they can’t jump on the throats of men as they can on women (and even when the women are alone in isolation). These people! In certain places where they target you, you just have to ignore them. They know very well why they chose such spots :x[/tscii:d00cb7613a]

[Sudhaama]

There is no meaning in blaming the Wolf when deers are not united and some of them are Traitors, exposing their own Team to their common enemy....

...alongside Self-denigration of the Great Culture and Heritage Indians possess, ever from the Evolution-days of Mankind on Earth....when the rest of the World had almost savages. and Tribals.

The worst pity is, as our President Dr. Abdul Kalam said... we did not realise or understand our own Greatness but thought mean and under-rated our Values, alongside infighting amongst our own Rulers of the so called 56 countries of One-India...which helped the Muslim and Christian Invaders quite easily.

.. Not only to loot our National-Treasure, Material-Wealth and selectively beautiful Indian-Women...for sale....

... but also our Great Heritage and Culture... leading to overpowering or domination of alient cultures thrust on us...backthrowing our own Human-Values.

Wolves are Wolves... No use of blaming them... We have to INTROSPECT.

[goodsense]

You must be a God sent and you would believe it if I tell you what I experienced today. I checked the meaning of "savage" to be sure and here are some of the definitions that striked me:

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=savage

1. **Lacking polish or manners; rude.
Not domesticated or cultivated; wild: savage beasts of the jungle.
2. Not civilized; barbaric: a savage people.

3. Ferocious; fierce: in a savage temper.
Vicious or merciless; brutal: a savage attack on a political rival. See Synonyms at cruel.

The list continues....... so accurate :(

[happyindian]

If we are really "large-hearted" and "exemplary", why do we go abt tom-tomming our heritage or find the necessity to?

God knows which culture / tradition we belonged to in our last birth or are going to belong to in our next birth (if there is 1 that is), cudn't we just be content appreciating all cultures across the globe?

[Sudhaama]

If we are really "large-hearted" and "exemplary", why do we go abt tom-tomming our heritage or find the necessity to?

God knows which culture / tradition we belonged to in our last birth or are going to belong to in our next birth (if there is 1 that is), cudn't we just be content appreciating all cultures across the globe?

Good Question ... my dear Happy-Indian.... I am the Iniator of this Thread... So I take the initiative to answer your Question. I wonder how you could not get the answer from the postings and replies so far made.

Have you really gone through the postings here so far? If Yes... You would not have raised this Question or Criticism.

Well. .. We are not Tomm-tomming our Greatness... but BRINGING OT TO LIGHT to our people who are thinking so cheap of our ANCIENT HERITAGE ... which has been ever exemplary to Mankind... as highlighed by even several foreigners including Dr.Anni-Besant, Dr. Max Muller, Dr. Harts, Dr. Percivel and so on ... even while India was under Slavery.

No doubt every Culture and Heritage of different nations all over the world have their own richness and Human-values. Out of them some are quite prominent and Great such as Roman, Greek and Eqyptian.

...We have never under-rated other cultures, while extolling our Indian Heritage... But only analysing and putting forth what is Great in ours... which many are yet to know or understand.

Are You really an Indian?... I pity You, that you don't know your own National- Greatness!...

..If you know you would not have raised this DISCOURAGING Question / Objection/ Criticism....

... ESPECIALLY YOU BEING HAPPY-INDIAN... I wish you must soon become the PROUD-INDIAN too.

Further I will elaborate in my future postings... and JUSTIFY THE HEADING.

[happyindian]

I apologize Sudhaama. Yes I did not read thru the entire thread. I shd not hv used the word 'tom-tomming" but yes I do think that not all parts of our culture or for that matter any culture in the world is exemplary.

Ofcourse will always remain happy being an indian. If I hv to take "pride" in one thing I have to "associate" myself with it. And unless the sense of ego associated with the thing in which I am taking pride is perfectly rational and healthy; it is diff to stay balanced. At some point of time or the other my sense of identity may cause me to bcome a bit rigid in accepting other cultures whole-heartedly. That is why I am happy being an Indian and its hard 4 me 2 c myself as a proud Indian. It gives me immense joy to see my people stride forward in today's life; and also to see that India as a nation is getting the recognition it deserves for its past achievements.

It is also true that someday perhaps we will be born in diff cultures or perhaps we belonged to other cultures in our past lives. So does it mean we must dislike other cultures?

It is all vidhi that once the Indian sub-continent was a gem on the face of earth, then it bcame a garbage bin and now the diamond in dirt is being polished all over again. The whole of South Asia is seeing a rise in fortunes. It is also vidhi that various nations that plundered simpler but spiritual civilizations were once upon a time nomadic paupers, who used rather wicked ways to bcome kings and now again are on the way to losing wealth in many diff ways. But then it is not the fault of the present generation for what their ancestors did (for any culture that is).

Sometimes we do have the tendency to under-rate / over-rate or rate at all, other cultures / ppl. Basically I guess it is not for us to judge various cultures/ people / nations / civilizations; for God made each of of us and determined how things should be; so how can we judge God's plans' or creations?

In a simple way our large-hearteded ness wud show if we truly accept all people world-wide with their good and bad. Am not sure if ALL Indians do that. Personally, in daily life have come across far more caucasians who genuinely say we love the indian way of life (food, clothes, music, spiritualism, etc) compared to indians who imitate the west but go on deriding the ways of the west.

Guess some of us don't realize that ppl who derided India happened to be around in the past when info flow was not much. 2day there are not many such ppl around. Ofcourse must say heartburn and envy is there everywhere when it comes to prosperity irrespective of whether u r indian, chinese, caucasian, etc.

[goodsense]

Sudhaama,

Based on a recent publication of mine and some of your chosen words (in recent post of yours just above), like Wolf, Deer, Savage and Tribal, I though this information sent to me might be relevant.

"A copy of my book,PLACE WITHOUT JOY,on sale for $19.95 post paid,will address these very issues by these morons and would also put these imbeciles in their historical perspective once and for all" by Caesar Agustus.

Never mind the name, he is an old Indian soldier.

[Sudhaama]

Sudhaama,

Based on a recent publication of mine and some of your chosen words (in recent post of yours just above), like Wolf, Deer, Savage and Tribal, I though this information sent to me might be relevant.

"A copy of my book,PLACE WITHOUT JOY,on sale for $19.95 post paid,will address these very issues by these morons and would also put these imbeciles in their historical perspective once and for all" by Caesar Agustus.

Never mind the name, he is an old Indian soldier.

Well... Dear "goodsense'... Will you please put forth here the SALIENT-EXTRACTS from your book...part by part?

Let us all enjoy reading and knowing more.

[goodsense]

I shall. The author resides in the US. He said he doubt whether I'll be able to obtain a copy in Canada, so he is mailing me one.

[goodsense]

For Sudhamma and other interested party, here is the address to obtain a copy of the book by Caesar Agusts I referred to ealier in this thread:

The address is. V. George Davis, 2488 Lake
Ida Rd, Delray Beach, Fl 33445. USA.

NB. You can send payment by check for $19.95, book mailed postpaid.

Caesar said " I can assure you, you will enjoy your time spent reading".

It could be sometime before I get around to reading it.

[Sudhaama]

Significance of TAMIL-NEW-YEAR ..

... Inaugural DAY OF SUCCESS.!!!

Funny British-Calendar.!!.... The World-Calendar too.!!

..Relegating the SCIENTIFIC TAMILIAN-SYSTEM.

Vide my TWO postings ... under the above Titles in another relevant Thread :---

http://forumhub.mayyam.com/hub/viewtopic.php?p=495906#495906

[Sudhaama]

...SUN-GOD the Earthly-Protector

According to Vedas and Astrology, the Planet Sun is the ATHMA- KAARAKA (Soul-might-bestower)...

...which is very VITAL for ones Life-Success.... in the PRACTICAL- SENSE.

Success in the Life of any Person... .as per Astrology of indian-Heritage commensurates with the extent of support from his/her Athma....

If one's Horoscope is grand lucky...in all other respects... but very weak by Sun's placement..

... it is the most unlucky one... since in Reality it only means as a LIFE-PUNISHMENT.... by possessing one Benefit or Wealth but unable to avail it....

So Mankind feels... Better not to have such an Ill-Luck..

We have practically found, that the Pleasures and Successes due for him as per other Planetary-strengths.... do not reach him...in the PRACTICAL-SENSE...being defeated and over-powered by Sun.

So to say... One Man may have an extremely Pretty wife...

...but if he is impotent... resulting in his lack of any Bed-pleasure!...or...

.. finds unable to live with, due to worst bitterness and misunderstandings..or..

.. some other cause for Unhappiness, even though living with..or without.

One may be a King but if he is a dummy under the control of others, holding No powers for any activity or freedom of his own... and so on?

One may be Very Rich, with all sorts of monetary-wealth... but may be unable to enjoy it, due to his chronic ill-health, or lack of Administrative-powers... or Ignorance to make the best use of wealth.

..INDICATING .A SINNER...in the previous births... reaping the due consequences in the subsequent birth....which is named as KARMA.

So just by one single factor of Sun, if a person's Life can be diametrically opposite to the positive-picture of High Strength by means of other planets...

..we can understand the Unparallel immense might of this Emperor-Planet Sun.,...

.. in the Life of not only the Individuals but also the Society as well. So we better take the maximum advantage of this power

Hence the Hindus not only worship this Royal-planet Sun fervently...

...on their Festival- days of Tamil-New Year... Pongal... Aadi-pandigai.. Sankaranthi...etc.

...but also pray daily too....through the Sandhyavandhana-manthra ...thrice DAILY...

...FOR THE SAKE OF THE SOCIETY ON THE WHOLE...

..."Oh! the Great Sun God... Kindly save us from the Sins...If we have committed any Sins or Unlawful deeds or Unapprovable acts or Anything of displeasure to you... during the past days or nights...

...either by Mind, Speech, Hands, Feet, Stomach, or Male-Organ... Kindly pardon (us).

"Oh the God Soorya... You are ever-present with us as OUR PROTECTOR JOTHI... I worship you and Surrender....Kindly Grace us, by kindly accepting this Handful of water as my HUMBLE OFFERING."

[devapriya]

[tscii:80a148ff79]Friends,

Tamilnadu we call today practically came into existence only under British and after Independence. Sangam Period had many Smaller Kings, Madurai was ruled by Ahuthai tribe and close to 300BCE, Pandiyas who were not natives but Outsiders came and won them by Battle. In Asako edicts also Chora, Keralputras, Sathiya putras and Pandiyas are been said- namely Choza, Chera, Athiyaman and Pandiyas. Athiyaman Tribe ruled much wider space than early Pandyas as per Sangam Lits. And Sangam Lit. tells many fights among them and close to 50BCE to 50CE Three Cheras, Cholas and Pandiyas became more dominant and Tholkappiyam and most of Sangam Lit belongs to this Period calls MuVentharkal.
Thani Tamil movement Scholar Mr. Salai Ilanthiraian- in his book “Tamil Kanigal” shows When Two Tamil Kings (Cholan Kurapalli Thunjiya PerunThiruma Vazavan & Pandiyan Velliambalththu Thunjiya Peruvazuthi) stood United a rare Scene the Poet called them as Lord Krishna and Balarama being United- as
PalNira vuruvin panai kodiyaanum
Neelnira vuruvin Nemiyonum
Iru perun theivamum vudan Ninraangu
Vurukezu thoRRamOdu .. ..


Similarly He also shows the Song of Avaiyar where in when all Three Kings stand together - Ovaiyar when She saw all the Three Muventar Together Wonderd as “Brahmins do Three Velvi’s and Three types of Fire-Agni come together these Three Kngs Cheraman MariVenko, Pandiyan ukkiraperuvazuthi and Chozan Perunarkilli.:
Øí ¸¡¨Äô Ò¨½À¢È¢Ð ø¨Ä;
´ýÚ ÒâóÐ «¼í¸¢Â இÕÀ¢Èô À¡Ç÷
Óò¾£ô Ò¨ÃÂì ¸¡ñ¾¸ Õó¾
¦¸¡üÈ ¦ÅñÌ¼ì ¦¸¡Êò§¾÷ §Åó¾¢÷;

இÕÀ¢Èô À¡Ç÷- Twice Born ( dwijarkal)

and one of the Oldest of Chera Kings PerumChorru Udayam Cheralathan’s Justice never fails is said as

¦ÀÕ狀¡üÚ Á¢ÌÀ¾õ ŨÃ¡Р¦¸¡Îò§¾¡ö!
À¡«ø ÒÇ¢ôÀ¢Ûõ, À¸ø ÕÇ¢Ûõ,
¿¡«ø §Å¾ ¦¿È¢ ¾¢Ã¢Â¢Ûõ
¾¢Ã¢Â¡î ÍüȦÁ¡Î ÓØЧºñ Å¢Çí¸¢, and during his regime the BRAhmins did Vedic Velvi every day
«ó¾¢ «ó¾½÷ «Õí¸¼ý ÚìÌõ
Óò¾£ Å¢Ç츢ü, ÚïÍõ - Tamilnadu remained God loving and Practising Vedas.

We need to know more about Sangam Lit.

Devapriya


[/tscii:80a148ff79]

[bis_mala]

Your are trying to twist facts to relegate Tolkappiyam to a later date. AnthaNar did not mean Brahmin.during the Sangam Age. Please see my old posts.

[devapriya]

[tscii:2985201be4]Dear Devapriya,

Please Read Sangam Literature to Mankmekhlai, link all and Your claim is totally false, Pavanar's quote has been given in depth.

Now Tholkapiyam has in depth of Varna System. It denies Education to the Fourth, Fourth cannot enter trade at any time etc., Sangam Literature names many Sub-castes even such as “ Irular, Villiar, Pallar, Vettuvar, Aayar, barathavar, maravar, kuravar etc., Sangam Lit. mentions even Many Gotras of Brahmins such as “Kasiyaba, Vathula, Aathreya, Koutinya, Kousika” etc, and as per Vedic practice calling them “Twice Born” etc.,

No Scholar of Repute with Proper University agree with your meaninless quotes.

Professor Geroge Hart's quotes have also been given.

Even Karunanithi and others who have good knowledge of Sangam agree with this, Kalignanar agrees in Kurolviam that Parppan and Anthanar are Brahmins.

What is your problem in accepting the History and why should you misinterpret it.

Devapriya.
[/tscii:2985201be4]

[bis_mala]

[tscii:fd987058c9]
Tholkapiyam has no Varna System. It did not deny Education to any. Anyone can enter trade at any time., Sangam Literature names many - “ Irular, Villiar, Pallar, Vettuvar, Aayar, barathavar, maravar, kuravar etc., were not castes but people of profession. Where does Sangam Lit. mention any gotras of brahmins?

No Scholar or non-scholar agrees with you.


// Kalignanar agrees in Kurolviam that Parppan and Anthanar are Brahmins.//

May have wrongly thought Brahminism had arrived by then. When Brahmins took over from the locals, these terms were also applied to them. When they succeeded in establishing a monopoly in these "professions" it became exclusive to them. But that was post-Sangam .

What is your problem in accepting the history and why should you insist on misinterpreting it.
[/tscii:fd987058c9]

[devapriya]

[tscii:4276077863]
Dear Friends,

Who Are Parppanar or Anthanar in Sangam (200BCE-200CE) And Tholkaapiyam (50-100CE), is is Munivar,who left the family and do not have any contacts with family etc.,

Brahmins in Sangam Literature(200bce-200CE and Thokappiyam always referred as Parppan, Anthanar, Iyer etc., Now I GIVE from ThiruMurugatrupadai,Which in Depth gives us that They wear Punol with 9 Threads, do VEDIC Rituals of raising Tri-Fire Daily and Practice Vedas. And One of the Faces of Muruga ( Lord Muruga’s Birth Stories in Thirumurugatrupadai has inlfluences of Birth Stories of Marutham in Rig Veda) is for Vedic Brahmins is for Poet says.

4. ¾¢Õ§Åøõ
*ÕãýÚ ±ö¾¢Â *ÂøÀ¢É¢ý ÅÆ¡«Ð
*ÕÅ÷î ÍðÊ Àø§ÅÚ ¦¾¡øÌÊ
«Ú¿¡ý ¸¢ÃðÊ *ǨÁ ¿øĢ¡ñÎ
Ȣɢü ¸Æ¢ôÀ¢Â «Èý¿Å¢ø ¦¸¡û¨¸ 180
ãýÚŨ¸ì ÌÈ¢ò¾ Óò¾£î ¦ºøÅòÐ
*ÕÀ¢Èô À¡Ç÷ ¦À¡Ø¾È¢óÐ ÑÅÄ
´ýÀÐ ¦¸¡ñ¼ ãýÚÒâ Ññ»¡ñ
ÒÄÃ¡ì ¸¡Æ¸õ ÒÄà ¯Ë*
¯îº¢ì ÜôÀ¢Â ¨¸Â¢É÷ ¾üÒ¸úóÐ 185
¦ÈØò ¾¼ì¸¢Â «ÕÁ¨Èì §¸ûÅ¢
¿¡Å¢Âø ÁÕí¸¢ý ¿Å¢Äô À¡Ê,
Å¢¨ÃÔÚ ¿ÚÁÄ÷ ²ó¾¢ô ¦ÀâÐÅóÐ
²Ã¸ò ШȾÖõ ¯Ã¢Âý, «¾¡ «ýÚ Tjirumuru 178-189

A sangam song tells us that a Parppanar house Lady making VaduMangai Urukai.
Punuul is worn only by Family men, and SANyasis are not allowed to wear it.
9 Threads of it refers to have lot of meaning an SUTHAAMA would be Ideal to explain that.

I referred to Thani-Tamil Scholar Salai Ilanthiraiyanar’s he means it as Brahmins of today and Pavanar syas same thing. Let us take Sangam of what it says.

For the Benefit of all of us- I quote Pavanar on what is Marai and what is Anthanar in SAngam Lit.]
" Nalvetham or Nanmarai, Arangam Agamam enbana ellam Arya Noolkale enbathum, Thirukural thavira ippothulla Pandai Noolkalellam Anthanar enbathum Brahmararie Kurikkum Enpathu Sariye. Page- 102 Tamilar Matham.
Samaskrithtil Thalai sirantha illakana Noolakia Paniniyam, Paniniyal BCE4m Noorandile eyarrpattathu. Ilakkana Noolai Viyakaranam enbar vadanoolar. Annoolirku mun ENN Ilakkana Noolkal Iyarrpattathuakach chollap padukindrthu. Avarrul Muthalathu Vetha Kalthathu enpadum Iyendiram"
- Tamilar Varalaru Page 56,57. Tamil Man Pathippagam.

I intend to destroy Pavanar’s Fraud on Kural in Thirukural Thread in Tamil.

Bismala only shows lack of education of what Sangam-Tholkaapiyam -Manimekhalai has, and Valluvar rightly says:
//402. ¸øÄ¡¾¡ý ¦º¡ü¸¡ ÓÚ¾ø ӨĢÃñÎõ
þøÄ¡¾¡ý ¦Àñ¸¡Óü ÈüÚ.
Unlearned man aspiring speech 402
Is breastless lady's love-approach.// Lady without breasts love would be Unattractive and same is Uneducated trying to say about the Literature- what they do not know. Kindly go through my post in CharuNivedita Comments Thread, where I HAVE listed a part of Tholkappiyam verses covering Varna’s and duties of various varnas.

Please stop Stooping. Kindly post from what you know and not what you believe.
Devapriya.
[/tscii:4276077863]

[bis_mala]

still no proof.

[devapriya]

Dear Friends,

Bismala closes her eyes and say the world has become dark.

Pavanar picked about his caste and wrote proudly from Sangam collection.

Maraimalai Aadigal wrote the same way saying his caste is oldest tribe and the Noblest among tamils

You say, it only proves you do not understand Tamil or English correctly.

Devapriya.

[bis_mala]

Dear Friends, Bismala closes her eyes and say the world has become dark.

Please substitute your name for mine and the statement will be right.


Pavanar picked about his caste and wrote proudly from Sangam collection. Rubbish! Where?

Maraimalai Aadigal wrote the same way saying his caste is oldest tribe and the Noblest among tamils Do not accuse people without proof.


You say, it only proves you do not understand Tamil or English correctly.
:!:

[Sudhaama]

Dear Devapriya and Bis_mala,

Please refrain from PERSONAL ATTACKS AND COUNTER-ATTACKS anymore...

...but on the... Substance of your individual contrary stands.

I will be thankful. for your dignified approach and lively presentation...

...OF COMMON INTEREST TO ALL the Hubbers.

[devapriya]

Dear Sudammaji,

Thank you for your ADVICE.

I bring to your attention, that Castes in India are not a Likable one, but they are based from Vedas.

Tholkappiyam and Sangam Literature has in abundance, and I HAVE given them in Charu Nivedita thread.

By keeping eyes Closed, Bismala tells the worlds has become blind.

I am sorry and I shall give the blabbers by Pavanar and Maraimalai aadiagal in the other Thread.

Devapriya.

[Sudhaama]

...

CASTE DIVISIONS : Ordained by GEETHA and VEDAS?



Dear Sudammaji,

Thank you for your ADVICE.

I bring to your attention, that Castes in India are not a Likable one, but they are based from Vedas.

Tholkappiyam and Sangam Literature has in abundance, and I HAVE given them in Charu Nivedita thread.

By keeping eyes Closed, Bismala tells the worlds has become blind.

I am sorry and I shall give the blabbers by Pavanar and Maraimalai aadiagal in the other Thread.

Devapriya.

Yes... in most of the Puranas too.... there is mention of Castes or such Social- classification

...But it is RADICALLY WRONG to say that it is BASED ON VEDAS. No Not at all.

On this point... I am analysing in detail under another thread... "RAMANUJA"....

Please comment there, if you still differ with me.... I will answer your points

The Castes were the making of the Olden days Kings, picking up the names from Vedas... which mean TOTALLY DIFFERENT.

These Castes... created by the Kings... in general, were based on ones occupation mostly....

... and some castes were based on the King's own reasoning... to suit his convenience and PERVERSION too

For example the word "PARHAI" is a Tamil word of Great-Sense of HONOUR"...

.... as of the Services by Bharatha who ruled in absentia of Rama in Ramayana

It means the COMMAND-SERVICES ordained by King or God to the Service-man.... to carry out the ASSIGNED TASKS....

... as DIRECTLY INSTRUCTED by the Master.... on Close proximity and EASY ACCESS to such an Assistant.... Which is a pleasure for the Serviceman.

Thiruppaavai says... "Narayananae namakkae PARHAI tharuvaan"

Hanumaan of Ramayana... and Lord krishna of Mahabharatha performed such a Parhai-service at one stage... in its true sense.

Anybody attributed as PARHAIYAR, in those days... were regarded high by the Society ....

...because of its implication for UNIQUE RECOGNITION by the then King...

...for Loyalty, Trustworthiness, Wisdom, Valour and Spirit of Sacrifice for the Nation.

Such Parhaiyars were employed mostly as... Spies, Messengers, Ambassadors or any such Specific-tasks in foreign nations...

...including Suicidal Pocket- attacks... within the Enemy Country.

Eventually such Remarkable people of Unique and highly COMPLEX COMPETENCE....were treated as Traitors by the Enemy Kings and Invaders ....

...So, if and when such Enemy King / Invader captures the Land ...

...he used to treat the Parhaiyars of former Kings.... very cheap and DENIGRATIVE... as Traitors,

... by evicting them from their...newly occupied... Kingdom...

... also Banning the people from having any access with such Parhaiyars

...who were stipulated to ...BEAT A DRUM... if and when it necessitates to enter any Residential locality... similar to Chandaalhas.

That Unique Drum... thus got the name as PARHAI.

Those Kings subsequently INCLUDED the Parhaiyars "with family" as a contingent of CHANDAALHAS..

Chandaalha was a segment of HABITUAL CRIMINALS...to the worst degree... in the view of those Kings.

Even Kovalan(Husband of Kannaki)... was termed as Chandaalha by the then King.!!!... Was he such a Worst Criminal?

Similarly another Word and Caste of DHAASI....

...a high sense of Service-woman .... prallel to the word "DHAASAN"

Thus the God-service-women were forcibly Stooped down very low... by the then Kings, followed by the whole Society as well.....

...as PROSTITUTE by caste... Quite Contrary to its True Sense and Origin.

Autocratic Kings of extreme Callousness.!!

What the worst sorts of INHUMAN ACTS.!!.... Pitiable.!!!.

But God and the Acharyas... have time to time fought against such Social-discrimination ... based by BIRTH..

For example...we can find from Ramayana, Mahabharatha and Bhagawatham too ....

Preaching SOCIAL EQUANIMITY.!!! .. Universal amity.!!! and Global-family Spirit.!!!.

[bis_mala]

I bring to your attention, that Castes in India are not a Likable one, but they are based from Vedas.

Thanks for this admission.


Tholkappiyam and Sangam Literature has in abundance, and I HAVE given them in Charu Nivedita thread.

:?:

[pizzalot]

Is there a casteless society in the world ? Family and caste are same for most part. Caste being the federation of the families. So casteism necessarily does not mean any harm. It is the concept of hierarchy of castes that is evil. There is no problem if umpteen families unite into 4 castes or 4000 castes. In the base they all stand divided anyway. But the problem is the hierarchy based on castes. And especially if the hierarchy becomes static because it is so endorsed in the religion. So where is this hierarchy enforced ? The Vedas or the Sangam ? I know vedas explicitly state the supremacy of certain castes and inferiority of all others. Please tell me about Sangam literature.

[Rohit]

Is there a casteless society in the world ? Family and caste are same for most part. Caste being the federation of the families. So casteism necessarily does not mean any harm. It is the concept of hierarchy of castes that is evil. There is no problem if umpteen families unite into 4 castes or 4000 castes. In the base they all stand divided anyway. But the problem is the hierarchy based on castes. And especially if the hierarchy becomes static because it is so endorsed in the religion. So where is this hierarchy enforced ? The Vedas or the Sangam ? I know vedas explicitly state the supremacy of certain castes and inferiority of all others. Please tell me about Sangam literature.If one equates caste to class, grade, order, rank, status, level, dignity; then there is no society in the world that is casteless. On the other hand, if one equates caste to lineage, species, ancestry, breed, parentage, pedigree, race or descent; then over 80% of the world's societies would fail to recognise caste, the way it is conceptualised in India; therefore they are, essentially, casteless.

The Indian caste system falls under the latter category whereby the enforcement of caste begins right from one's birth/parentage.

In the casteless societies, on the other hand, one's class, grade, order, rank, status, level, dignity - i.e. the social status - is earned by one's own ability and efforts and it only lasts as long as one remains capable of retaining the earned status. In such societies, one can both earn and loose the status in one's lifetime; while in the Indian society, one's caste carries on forever; irrespective of the (in)ability and/or (un)worthiness for the status.

Thus, when it comes to earning class, grade, order, rank, status, level, dignity; the individual's choice and capability play the decisive role; while there is no such choice available when it comes to the Indian caste system; regardless of one's ability.

However, regardless of the attributes to which one chooses to equate caste, the concept of hierarchy is inherent in the concept of caste itself, and it becomes evil only when it is blindly linked to one's birth and/or parentage. When one equates family to caste exactly as conceived in the Indian society, which is based on birth and not on individual's ability, it can cause nothing less than atrocious harm to the whole society; and there are countless evidences that support exactly that, both in the past and in the present.

In nutshell, any segregation of a society based on such baseless, heedless and blind beliefs is nothing but utter disgrace on the whole society that follows it. The Indian caste system is deplorable on every count; and therefore, it must be completely rooted out at any cost. Period. :)

[Sudhaama]

[quote="pizzalot".... I know vedas explicitly state the supremacy of certain castes and inferiority of all others. ...[/quote]

It is NOT CORRECT to say... that either Vedas or any other Hindu- Scriptures stipulate Caste-divisions within the Society..

... BASED ON PARENTAGE.... or Heridity

...even though there is mention of the so called Caste-names there too.

But those Caste-Names mentioned in Vedas and Geetha... only mean the Four Segments of Humans created so...

... innate with FOUR DIVERGENT QUALITIES ... as Inevitable Social Potentialities

... in Complex- forms of (1) Sathva-guna+ Rajo-guna....(2) Rajo-guna + Thaamasa-Guna.... (3) Sathva+ Rajas+ Thaamasa Guna... and(4) Thaamasa Guna exclusively. ....

...IRRESPECTIVE OF PARENTAGE AND HEREDITY..

Since such Combinations of Humans are Vital for the Cohesive functioning of the Society....

...as ONE UNITED TEAM of Overall beneficiary Aptitude... without any Mutual Superiority Nor Inferiority.

So to say... to achieve any Important major Task....

... Four Sorts of Persons are required...

(1) One person able to concentrate Spiritually coupled with Wisdom

(2) Another with bodily Physical-might with a Mental-attitude of Valour

(3) Another of Large- heartedness with Co-ordinatory propensity.

(4) Another of Service-minded attitude.

Thus the Children of any one and the "Same Parent" of anyone MANMADE Caste ....

...can be of "Different Castes" so Denominated and MEANT SO ..by the Vedas and other Hindu Scriptures.

All the Hindu Scriptures... including Vedas and Geetha...Convey highly Spiritual Values... ALL THROUGH...

...quite opposite to the Parochial or Narrow-minded and Dominative outlook of the King- made Social-caste-system.

Any Gospel...GOD-MADE...Cannot be PARTIAL... Inconsistent and Self- contradictory ...

...when compared to other sections of the same Scriptures.

They INVARIABLY mean... only the LARGE-HEARTEDNESS of Universal- Equanimity Spirit...

... TRUE TO THE "SENSE OF HUMANITY".....Nothing Different .... Nor Beyond.
...

[Badri]

Please....no more caste discussions, no matter how academic or clinical you want to portray it.

This is the last and final warning to all parties involved. This Forum does not condone such discussions.

[Sudhaama]

...
You will "BECOME AS YOU WANT" : Says Upanishad !!!

By the words...."Yath-Bhaavam, Thath Bhavathi !" ...

Athough the Upanishad is a Religious cum Philosophical text ... its high Sense-values well match with the Realistic Life-science too ...

...asserting its imbued LARGE-HEARTEDNESS .... Exemplary for Mankind.... ETERNALLY.

In a similar and Parallel sense.....Geetha says....

Udhdharaeth Aathman Aathmaanam, na aathmaanam avasaadhayaeth
Aathmaiva Aathmano Bandhuhu Aathmaiva Ripuhu Aathmanaha.

...which means.... Oh Man! Raise Yourselves by your Own-self-endeavour.../ by means of your Aathma=Soul

(Because) You are your Own-Friend... as also You, your Own-Enemy (too)

How one can possess two Contradictory Qualities of a Friend as as well as an Enemy?.... That too within his Own-Self?

If you just allow your inborn qualities alone to continue, it may not be adequate for you to rise up, conforming to your ambitions... or

... or if you allow some of your innate Bad qualities accrued from your previous births to continue to exist unabated .. or...

...if you add up of your own... such Bad qualities, due to Malefic association ...

...it may lead you towards added Sinful deeds... worsening your prospects in the current birth.

So you have to improve yourselves more and more towards Sathwa-guna...

....which is the Spiritual-mind...of God-Realisation coupled with the Constant-sense of concern for others too, parallely.... ultimately towards Social-awareness.

Adhi Sankaracharya, the Great.... took up this terminolgy as one amongst the Two Seed-Gospels for founding his Theory of Adhwaitha...

He developed its Concept, one step furthermore . If You can become what you want... why not as God too?...

So he preached the Basic-chanting of the words..."Aham Brahmaasmi"...

So to mean, chanting within oneself constantly " I am God.!... I am God.!!... I am God.!!!"...

And it is a miraculous Truth... that many of the Sankaracharya's ardent disciples...especially the Seers, have really become God...

... to their worshippers fervently making them to call and treat so as "NADAMAADUM DHEYWAM" !!

If we can become...EVEN GOD...Why not just a PROSPEROUS MAN?

Such a Philosophical principle tallies well with the Psychological stipulation of AUTO-SUGGESTION.

...where the Psychology has established with Scientific proofs .. that by... constant suggestion to one's own Inner-self...

....as " I AM GREAT !. I AM SURE, I WILL BE SUCCESSFUL on my Efforts."...

...anybody of whatsoever Competence and Qualification-demands of his ambitions, becomes so, as he aspired for...

...commensurate with the Degree of Self-confidence and Standard of Faith.

Thus we are able to understand that God wishes eveyone to raise up himselves to higher standards , by means of his own efforts...

...more than the Ethical-Standard he was bestowed with at Birth... and that...

... "No one" is DESTINED to Suffer for Ever... by any Reasoning and that..

... God's grace will be available to one and all... EQUALLY and IMPARTIALLY ...

...towards Self-Advancement...and PROSPERITY to ANY HEIGHT !!

... Proportionate to One's Own ENDEAVOUR WITH FAITH !!!
...

[Sudhaama]

.
.God's PARTIALITY in Koorma-Awathaaram.? (Tortoise-shape)

All Awatharas are called LEELAAS (Play)... to convey and inculcate High Morals.. through simple playful approach... for the benefit of Humanity.

That is the Unique value and Greatness of Indian Epics... a part of Indian Heritage.

Dear Friends.. What You all have got to say in reply to the above Valid question? I invite your free thoughts and comments.

Finally I will answer, basing on all your thought-provoking points.

Let us all make it an interesting and lively discussion of several Hearts and Wisdom... WELCOME.
.

[Sudhaama]

.
.INVALUABLE Treasures available for every Human?

..To keep oneself ALWAYS HAPPY and SUCCESSFULLY ADVANCE?

Mahabharatha answers... (Vide Sudhaama's Posting: May-29)

http://forumhub.mayyam.com/hub/viewtopic.php?p=1043804&sid=325351684819057e21e3d980fb2d5e1c#1043804
.

[wrap07]

yes. the Avatharas of God in various times and circumstances have all been at times of people going in wrong way or to inculcate moral values as also to spread the ultimate message that DHARMA ALONE WILL TRIUMPH. it is really wonderful that our Vedas and Idhihasas contain invalauble and unimaginable bundle of thoughts and advices which has guided us for such a long time and will guide us in future also.

[Sudhaama]

.
.Model Lessons from Rama.?

(1) Rama too committed Mistakes and Blunders even...

..in some cases... under the grip of DELICATE AND EMBARASSING confused Circumstantances.

And perhaps some such blunders might have caused Sins... We do not know...

Valmiki does not say about His Sins or Virtues or the so called resultant-effect named Karmas... accrued out of his deeds.

(2) According to Vedic principles...

Amongs the Humans... Nobody is totally a PUNYAATHMA (Virtuous Person)....

...and Nobody is totally Paapaathma (Sinner).

Rather everybody is partly a Sinner and partly Virtuous... of varying degrees from person to person.

So to say UNINTENTIONALLY or INADVERTANTLY we may commit some sins...

..for which the Governments and the Kings may not Excuse...

..but God upto some extent condones and pardons...

..provided the person REALIZES and CONFESSES before God whole-heartedly...

..and promises to be more careful in future.

(2) What are the Lessons imparted by Rama to Mankind?

This is a Big Question to be answered in several volumes of books.

However a few points in brief...

(a) Rama is named as THYAGARAJA... a "King of Sacrifice" .. SELFLESSLY..

... to ensure protection of Social-justice... Family-unity... Moral-Values... and Divine-Doctrines stipulated by Vedas.

Even in case of delicate circumstances he had foregone his rights... thus a tactful Problem-shooter... even at his own cost.

(b) Victory in Life by any means... is the BESTIAL-LAW and Not the Human-Law...

..So not only our intention but also the means and approach also should be righteous, just and commonly acceptable impersonally.

For example if Rama's purpose of seeking help from Sugreeva was to gain strength to win over Ravana...

..he could have gained better strength.. by aligning with Vali the mightier amongst the two brothers.

But he supported Sugreeva and sought his help only... because Vali's support will indirectly mean supporting his unjust deeds and pursuits...

...whereas in case of supporting Sugreeva, it means supporting Justice... especially to an innocent victim.

(c) In Life... unless we are interested in the Others Welfare .. at par with ours...

..we cannot deserve nor expect others to be our Well-wishers..

...Rather Humanitarian-Love and Respect... must voluntarily forthcoming from us first..

Similarly even for the minute benefit and support we gain from others...

..we should duly recognise it... voluntarily... before such human gestures are demanded from others.

Rama proved his sense of Gratitude MAGNANIMOUSLY... more than it deserves by embracing a Boatman Guha, a Monkey Sugreeva and an Asura Vibheeshana... ignoring their status and personal backgrounds.

(d) Rama had utmost respect for Woman-hood and so was strict not to make women as PLAYTOYS of Males... by having several Wives and Concubines...

..thus BREAKING THE PRACTICE in those days of Male Chauvanism.

(e) Even a King is NOT AN EXCEPTION on Human-Laws... and so the Ruler should not violate the Principle of Justice and the Laws of Humanity...

...but must ensure SELF-DISCIPLINE as a Model- Leader for his subjects.

(f) The Voice and Views of every citizen... irrespective of status must be equally honoured and has to be considered IMPERSONALLY ensuring overall- justice and importance to one and all concerned with us.

In brief.. whatever we expect from others... we should volunteer to offer magnanimously...

...by means of our constant endeavour...

... towards optimum UNCULPABILITY in Life.

..Which alone is the GREATEST VICTORY in Life...

...of utmost HAPPINESS... by keeping the Head high...

...with a ROYAL WALK in Life of Supreme Pride and ELEGANCE.!!!
.

[Sudhaama]

.
.God's PARTIALITY in Koorma-Awathaaram.? (Tortoise-shape)

All Awatharas are called GOD'S LEELAAS (Plays)...

..intended to convey and inculcate High Morals.. through simple playful approach...

..for the benefit of Humanity.

That is the Unique value and Greatness of Indian Epics... a part of Indian Heritage.

The Fundamental Principle of Life is displayed in this Awathara. How.?

In fact, this Awathara took place... only to solve the problems and COMPLAINTS from the Innocent Victims, the Devas...against their worst Enemy the Sadists.. called Asuras.

Whereas why the Gods advised them to seek the equal participation by such crucial Enemy, Asuras also... assuring them the due share of outcome... for their due role in churning the Milky-ocean for fetching the Nectar (Amritha)...?

And why they were finally denied their DUE RIGHTS.?

Does it not mean CHEATING.?... Breach of Trust.?

Bhagawatha-purana clearly handles this Story... in a convincing manner.

Vishnu wanted make the Greatest play... to preach His Gospel by ACTION... and so he made a scheme by Koorma-awathara.

Vishnu advised Devas and Asuras to work jointly and unitedly on the task... ensuring mutual well-wishes as a Team... only in case of such a Friendly spirit and RECIPROCAL SINCERETY... He will help them to receive the due returns.

Both the parties agreed and came forward to co-operate sincerely in the collective endeavour. He asked them to bring the huge Vasuki Snake, as also the Mandra Hillock... to the Churning-Site Paarkadal. Both could jointly carry the Hill... only for a few yards... but slipped down making most of them trapped underneath.

They cried for Help... Immediately vishnu rushed to the Spot... and He Himself carried both the huge Snake and the Large Hill to the Site.

Then Vishnu asked them to lift and keep it on His back as a support for churning.

Both the parties could not. Then Vishnu took the shape of a Tortoise and sleeked underneath the Hill. He took another shape also.. to hold the top of the Churning-hillock. Since the Head side was preferred by Asuras.. it was acceded to. Leading all the Devas on the Tail side... Vishnu took a Third shape along with Siva and Brahma.. and the churning process started.

To the wonder of both the Devas and Asuras... the churning process got conducted of its own accord...

Asuras guessed... "Oh Devas are pulling... so we need not take pains... but only just walked to and fro... pretending as if they are playing their due equal role with Devas.

In fact the Churning was conducted by the Tortoise beneath... with the help of Top-hold by another form of Vishnu.

Then the Poisonous gas emanated... Devas and Asuras ran away.

But it was quickly collected by the Lord Siva and drunk.. Thus all of them got saved.

Then Moodevi the Evil force Devil... emanated... followed by several other divine creations like Kamadhenu, Aswa, Chandra, Lakshmi and so on.

Ultimately the God Dhanwanthri came out holding a pot of Nectar.

Yes. Nectar did not emanate out of Churning.!

It was snatched away by Asuras.

Now can anybody say... who deserves the Nectar.? How much.? Why.?
.

[Sudhaama]

.
..God's PARTIALITY in Koorma-Awathaaram.?.

.Answer.!

Without looking at it... just as a Mythological Story.. or doubting on its Veracity...

..as may be acceptable to the Reasoning of the Contemporary age..

...We have to take only the Message behind and the Valuable Lessons out of this God's Drama...

...an ETERNAL LIFE- GUIDANCE for Humanity.

I need not elaborate the Story further... since already known to all.

But the Answer for the Wise Questions raised.

Yes. Sukrachariar the Asura-Guru made a vociferous complaint to Brahma and then questioned the propriety of Vishnu...

...seriously alleging as his Partiallity... and injustice meted out to his disciples, Asuras.

Vishnu replied to Sukrachariar thus...

(1) Yes. Indeed it was Myself... who insisted on Devas to invite Asuras too and ensure a Joint effort... in a Friendly Team Spirit

Because all my creations including Asuras... are my children... whom I am eagerous to upliift somehow. My intention and advice was to forget all the past atrocities commited by Asuras...

..and give them a fair-chance to rise up at least now by this rare opportunity.

Besides as a Praayachiththam and Parihaaram for all their past Sins... by way of unfairness to Devas...

...I wanted the Asuras also take equal amount of pains at par with Devas.

Whereas your disciples have not improved at all.. but continue to dominate over others...

..taking undue advantage of unusual mights bestowed... plus a rare prevelege to fetch Nectar.

Your Disciples the Asuras... behaved not only as the constant Enemies of Devas.. even at this stage..

..and proved as highly selfish too... by feeling happy on hearing heavy loss of Lives of Asuras too, their brethren...

...under the onsalught of the Snake's poisonous emissions.!

Thus Asuras proved that they do not deserve anymore encouragement... but only punishment.

So I had to intervene... and render justice to Devas.

Sukrachariar could not further claim.. in favour of his disciples Asuras...

...but became Dumb-founded.!!

Hence the Lesson to Mankind is...

God is prepared to forgive and forget the past misdeeds and shower His benign grace...

..provided, we realise our self-misconducts, INTROSPECT, Confess..

...and HONESTLY prove our intention by means of our FUTURE APPROACH of...

..GOODNESS TO ALL of the Society...

..with UNFAILING EMPATHY, Reciprocal Sincerety and UNITY...

...coupled with UNIVERSAL-LOVE.!!!
.

[Sudhaama]

.
. Why Lord KRISHNA behaved as THIEF.? as Child's Play?

Was He not rich enough to get abundantly from his Mother Yasodha.?

..Or was He over-controlled by His Mother... denying His Wishes and Demands.?

.Is it an Exemplary Lesson for Mankind.? How and Why.?

Yes. There is an Invaluable HIDDEN TRUTH... behind His Childhood plays..

...the God's invaluable Message by ENACTMENT and Implementation of the Divine TEXTS...and the VEDIC GOSPELS...

coupled with a Practical CODE OF LIFE-GUIDANCE...

...Ever applicable to Mankinnd of all Eras and Ages....

..especially the MOST RELEVANT for the Contemporary Era...

..irrespective of Religious and other aspects of Segmentation of One Human-Society...

..as well as the various MAN-MADE Divisions and Yardsticks...

... for One Mankind.!

My Dear Friends,

I invite your Thoughts and Knowledge on the subject.

.Please put forth analytically...

..Pro or Anti.!. ???
.

[Sudhaama]

.
.

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http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p213/sudhaama/2008/Sangeetha-Oct08/Deepavali11-1.jpg
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.Deepavali: Festival of AUTO-SUGGESTION

..coupled with Universal-Love.!!!

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http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p213/sudhaama/2008/Sangeetha-Oct08/Deepavali12-1.jpg
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What is the Concept of Deepavali-Festival.?...

...So called FESTIVAL OF LIGHTS.!!!

According to Vedas, Upanishads and Sasthras... backed by Scientific analysis...

... it is an Annual Festival... conducted in the "Aippasi" Tamil month.. by Agriculturists mainly...

...supported by all the People of different professions too.!.

It is a Collective Prayer of Nature... combined with Auto-Suggestion and Optimism..

...commencing from the period of Kolu-Festival... celebrated during the previous Tamil Month... "Purattaasi" by Women-folk and Children.

Deepavali is the Grand Social-Festival... praying for the Mutual and Collective Welfare... and United Advancement of the entire Society of the respective Village or Town.

The Concept of Auto-Suggestion... dispelling the Darkness in Life... and enlightening by Self-Endeavour supported by Nature the Super-Human God.!

All the various Gods in Jothi form are collectively worshipped...

...apart from the sense of Decoration of Home...

...by means of Lights spread over

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http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p213/sudhaama/2008/Sangeetha-Oct08/UniversalLove4.jpg
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Artificial Lights are lit... before Sunrise...

...followed by Natural Universal Light.. The SUN God

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Sun is solemnly welcome and prayed at Sunrise...

...with an Optimististic sense of HOPE on Future.
.

[Sudhaama]

.
.Pongal Festival.!.. Symbolic Tamil-Culture of UNIVERSAL-LOVE.!

..further ascertained by the Great Indian Heritage...

..Exemplary for Mankind.!

.How.?
.

[Sudhaama]

.
.
.PONGAL Festival .. the Gesture of GRATITUDE.!


..Emphasising Human-Values of EMPATHY & UNIVERSAL-LOVE.!



.
.Pongal Festival.!.. Symbolic Tamil-Culture of UNIVERSAL-LOVE.!

..further ascertained by the Great Indian Heritage...

..Exemplary for Mankind.!

.How.?
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Gratitude to God- Nature, especially Sun & Earth... the Farm- Workers... Womenfolk... Cattle... Birds...

...plus the SOCIETY ON THE WHOLE. !!!

Self-Ascertainment of MUTUAL-DEPENDANCY... enhanced by the PLEASURE to OFFER... as Duty / COMMITMENT...

...More than the Concept of Self- Right to Claim...

...as the Case of an Individual Man, the Limb of the Society-Body.
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[Arthi]

Pongal festival is also for Lord Krishna and Bogi for Indiran and Mattu Pongal for Lord Shiva

we all know that,in order to teach Indiran a lesson, Lord Krishna asked his cowherd friends to worship Gowardhana hill instead of Indira.
This brushed Indiran's Ego and he sent clouds and thunder to Govardhana hill and it was raining incessantly for 3 days and Lord Krishna lifed the huge Gowardhana Hill with his little finger and protect all the inhabitants and thus he made Indiran realised his mistake and also the divine power of Lord Krishna.

Indiran then seeked Lord Krishna's forgiveness and since then Bogi (which meand Indira) is being celebrated to honur Indira and Pongal to for all baktha's to rembember this Gowardhana story how the little krishna lifted the gaint hill by his little finger :bow:

[Arthi]

Mattu pongal has an association with cattle a especially Lord Shiva's mount Nandhi

The celebrations of the festival are similar to the festivals of Raksha Bandhan where sisters pray for their brothers' well being

[Sudhaama]

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...........
This brushed Indiran's Ego and he sent clouds and thunder to Govardhana hill and it was raining incessantly for 3 days

.SEVEN (7) DAYS & NIGHTS.... NON-STOP Heavy Down-pour of Cats And Dogs.!



and Lord Krishna lifed the huge Gowardhana Hill with his little finger and protect all the inhabitants and thus he made Indiran realised his mistake and also the divine power of Lord Krishna....

Conveying a Lesson to Humanity...

(1) If God be with me... although I an ORDINARY MAN-KIND...at Boyhood stage...endowed with just a 12 years Boy-Strenth...

...can BECOME A GIANT... capable to Lift even a Mountain.!

(2) Auto-Suggestion... by pumping up... SELF-CONFIDENCE.!

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[Sudhaama]

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- The HUMAN-VALUES... Concept of DEEPAVALI...


.. and the Significance of AIPPASI / THULA Month. - Discussion

http://forumhub.mayyam.com/hub/viewtopic.php?p=1930917#1930917
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[Sudhaama]

Grand-Festival DEEPAVALI... MOST IMPORTANT... for Indians.!...


... by Indian-Heritage.! Why.? HOW.?




Yes. Out of all the Festivals and Celebrations of Indians... Deepavali irrespective of the Regions, Profession and Status... deepavali is the Most important and....

.... INDISPENSABLE.... HOLY CELEBRATION.... Why.?

As already said...

(1) Deepavali is the One day in a Year... we celebrate with a LOUD UNDERTONE... of Self-Realisation... on Realities of Life...

...Darkness and Brightness ..or Day and Night are parts of our Life...

..whether One likes and relishes or not.

So is our positive and Negative experiences, circumstances. Hence let us learnto live with it...

(2) There are only... Two Options in Life.,,, Either CURE or ENDURE.... with Disorders if any... around you.

...Share and Exchange your Pleasures and Knowledge... during every moment of your Life-time.

Festivals and Social-celebrations like Deepavali are the best Opportunities and Occasions to EXCEL in the degree of Human-values

(3) Life itself... is an affair of MUTUAL-DEPENDANCE. .So Indian-Heritage subtly reminds the Huanity...

..Look, my dear Man... YOU ARE NOT ALONE... There is your Family of Wife, Children and Parents.... You are mutually dependant... by Give and Take.

..Similarly... there is One People's Society of your Street... a part of your Town... which forms part of your District... which further forms part of your Nation.. whivch ultimately forms part of the Global Society.

So my Dear Man... LEARN TO LIVE WITH ALL... of different Hues and Voices.

..Learn to FORGIVE AND FORGET.... by means of EMPATHY and Reality.

..Learn to pick up the useful ONE Grain ... amongst the MASS of Rubbish... you find in others...

..like the Hen do.... and share with its chicken.

(4) Life means HOPE... HOPE leads to AUTO SUGGESTION...

..AUTO-SUGGESTION... leads towards PERSEVERENCE and TOLERANCE.

...which ultimately leads to GROUP- SUCCESS and COLLECTIVE ADVANCEMENT of all.

More than the Spirit of Family, Nation and the Society...FOR ME..!!.
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..For my Family, Nation and the Society.... I AM.... !!!
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