India's Airforce

[HindustaniLadka]

India has one of the largest and one of the best airforces in the world, but it has been having some problems lately. The IAF's MiG-21 and Jaguar aircraft are getting old and are becoming crash prone because of poor pilot training for these aircraft and becase of technical problems. The IAF has already taken care of the training issue by purchasing more advanced training aircraft, but it still needs to take care of the technical problems buy purchasing new fighters(It has already decided to purchase 126 fighters, but it has not decided which ones to purchase).

I personally feel the IAF should go with the French Mirage or Rafale aircraft as replacements for the MiG-21 since they are combat proven and because France is willing to give India a complete technology transfer and more. Also, India already has experience with French aircraft, so no new training will be needed. As a replacement for the Jaguar fighters, i think India should purchase the Russian Su-34 and give it an MKI upgrade. India has already had a good experience with the Su-30MKI(which is a heavily upgraded version of the Su-37) and the Su-30MKI is the most advanced fighter in service today next to the F-22 raptor...so an Su-34MKI could be very good for the IAF.

Anyway, which aircraft do you think the IAF should choose to replace the MiG-21 and the Jaguar fighters?

[Surya]

If not for the sales of the planes to Pak from the US, India could buy some right now, but now India doesn't wanna get into an arms race with Pak like the US did with Russia. Tough situation.

[HindustaniLadka]

I don't think the US sale will really stop India. India will probably just upgrade more of its aircraft and buy new aircraft without making too mcuh noise. Either way, the US aircraft that Pakistan will be getting are not a threat to India, since India already has superior aircraft. India was able to defeat the f-16s and the f-15s(pakistan is not getting f-15s, but they are far superior to f-16s) in wargames with the US and other countries.

[P_R]

Didn't Condoleezza Rice recently sign an agreement that part of the production processs was going to be in HAL Bangalore ? Also I heard that the new American aircrafts we are going in for are going to have Israeli guidance systems, which would give us a clear advantage in the region ? I know I sound illiterate, informed hubbers please elaborate.

[HindustaniLadka]

I haven't actually heard about hte aircraft being coproduced in Bangalore or about the Israeli upgrades, but they both seem entriely possible since both Russia and France have offered India production rights of certain aircraft and almost all of the aircraft, and even most of the armored vehicles, in the Indian military have been upgraded with Israeli tech.

I personally feel that India should not go for US weapons because the US will basically have control of the Indian airforce(since the IAf will have to get parts, training and equipments from the US) and the US is not very trustworthy. I feel France, Israel and Russia are more trustworthy.

[blahblah]

the US is not very trustworthy. I feel France, Israel and Russia are more trustworthy.

Agreed two hundred percent. -deleted-
And they will suffer in the coming years for their short sighted opportunism.They funded and armed the Taliban,Saddam Hussain,Saudi Arabia and the Pakistanis.Now they are being paid back in their own currency.

India may be forced to by their fighters,but we should never forget that the Americans are not at all trustworthy,and that is a universal sentiment.

There is nothing wrong in depending on nations like France,Russia[which is a foul weather friend] and Israel.

[Rohit]

To me, the question about who can be trusted and who can’t be trusted arises only when there is dependency on others. It is the Indian dependency on countries like France, Russia, UK, US as the established suppliers of advanced military technology and hardware that makes India vulnerable to play in the hands of world’s established military powers.

Israel is relatively a new player in military market. However, the pace at which it has established itself as an innovative force in military technology is exceptional even if one realises the strong US support to Israel.

On the other hand, if one compares the Indian situation with that of the Chinese, the Chinese situation is by far, on a much firmer footing than the Indian situation as far as the dependency on other countries for the supply of critical military hardware is concerned.

So, it is all about the military and political power that a country holds on the world stage. As long as India remains dependent, without establishing itself as a competitive technological and innovative force, the exploitation of its vulnerability would remain unguarded.

[Surya]

I personally feel that India should not go for US weapons because the US will basically have control of the Indian airforce(since the IAf will have to get parts, training and equipments from the US) and the US is not very trustworthy. I feel France, Israel and Russia are more trustworthy.

I feel the exact same way too. But the US basically ownes the war weapon monopoly!! :evil: If the US doesn't want to, what are the chances that France or Israel are going be willing to do business? Basically the final word on any legal weponry transactions in the world comes from the US. Directly or indirectly.

[HindustaniLadka]

I personally feel that India should not go for US weapons because the US will basically have control of the Indian airforce(since the IAf will have to get parts, training and equipments from the US) and the US is not very trustworthy. I feel France, Israel and Russia are more trustworthy.

I feel the exact same way too. But the US basically ownes the war weapon monopoly!! :evil: If the US doesn't want to, what are the chances that France or Israel are going be willing to do business? Basically the final word on any legal weponry transactions in the world comes from the US. Directly or indirectly.

In the past, France and Israel have ignored the US many times and they have sold very advanced weapons and technology to India. Recently, the US told Israel not ot sell extremly advanced Radar, Missile and Aircraft technology to India, but they did anyway.

[Surya]

Oh that's right! I forgot about that. But doesn't isreal really need US's support badly right now, since the stability in the middle east is getting worse by the day?

[HindustaniLadka]

Ironically, while the situation gets worse in countries liek Iraq and Syria, it is improving in Israel. The number of suicide bombings has gone down dramatically in Israel now(Probably because the only people that terrorist dogs hate more than Israelis are Americans...and the Americans are in Iraq, so all the terrorists are flooding into Iraq). Israel has also been losing support from the US recently. For example, they were kicked out of the F-35 JSF program because of their weapons sales to India and China.

[Surya]

-deleted-

[Idiappam]

-deleted-

[P_R]

To me, the question about who can be trusted and who can't be trusted arises only when there is dependency on others. It is the Indian dependency on countries like France, Russia, UK, US as the established suppliers of advanced military technology and hardware that makes India vulnerable to play in the hands of world's established military powers.

Israel is relatively a new player in military market. However, the pace at which it has established itself as an innovative force in military technology is exceptional even if one realises the strong US support to Israel.

On the other hand, if one compares the Indian situation with that of the Chinese, the Chinese situation is by far, on a much firmer footing than the Indian situation as far as the dependency on other countries for the supply of critical military hardware is concerned.

So, it is all about the military and political power that a country holds on the world stage. As long as India remains dependent, without establishing itself as a competitive technological and innovative force, the exploitation of its vulnerability would remain unguarded.
But we are among the biggest defence markets. Our orders are always larger than most others. Plus we pay and not gets jets as part of the aid programmes. So aren't we in a stronger postion than before ?

As far as China goes , I don't know how much of this anti-Chinese drivel so informed hubbers correct me, their R&D is not as well developed as ours. Particularly so in defence. They make most of their progress from reverse engineering which has short term gains only. I remember a while ago Canada withdrawing from a technology agreement when they found that the Chinese had replicated a Canadian nuclear-reactor design inch by inch and wre going to hit the market at a third of the price :lol:
To sum up, how much do we have to really care about whom to trust when our orders are too big to be ignored ? Even if not in absolute terms aren't we going to have clear air-force advantages over Pak and China because of this ?

[HindustaniLadka]

Yeah, we already have a major airforce advantage over China and Pakistan because our tech is more advanced. Also, more countries are willing to sell weapons to us because we do not reverse engineer like the Chinese and the Pakistanis. If you look at Chinese military inventory, everything is reverse engineered. All the tanks are based on soviet T-55 tanks and almost all the aircraft are based on MiG-21s. They have F-16s and Su-30MKKs, but they have small numbers of these and India alreay has other aircraft that can take care of them. We have the capability to manufacture and design our own equipment, but it makes more economical sense to buy weapons from other countries and use the money we would spend to research the weapons on our own on infrastructure instead.

We can also buy the manufacturing rights for certain aircraft (like we did on the Su-30MKIs). By doing that, the supply of parts will not be an issue and some of the money we spend on hte aircraft will go back into the economy.

[blahblah]

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Repeated a hundred times!

Long live the Monarchs of this hub!
[Icon for utmost contempt :roll: ]

And hubbers,please respect the 'Moral Police' :x :x at work.

[Sandeep]

As far as manufacturing Aircrafts in India is conserned unless careful it will go the same way as Arjun Tanks. Which have completed research stage but whose induction to the Army in large scale is still in papers. Same with much hyped LCA from HAL.

We know the main cause for our planes falling from sky like flies is the poor "quality" of work of our govt run organizations.

The Lazy and Currupt govt employees that we have can screw up any world class technology.

[Idiappam]

Truly an Indian Air-farce!

[HindustaniLadka]

Truly an Indian Air-farce!

---deleted----

Anyway, the only planes taht are falling out of the sky are the MiG-21s. The MiG-21s are from the 1960s and they have been in service with the IAF for a very long time. As they get older, their mechanical quality deteriorates, so they start failing in the sky. the IAF has been upgrading them to MiG-21 Bisons. The MiG-21 Bisons have not had any mechanical failures so far and they have proven to be very effective. In an air excercise with 4 US F-15Cs, according to a US pilot, a MiG-21 Bison took out both of his wingmen before they were able to notice it on radar and it took him out shortly after.

The problems in the LCA and Arjun programs have been fixed and the IAF plans to Induct LCAs before 2010. The army has only purchased around 150 Arjun Tanks. It has not purchased more because they are expensive(they cost twice as much as the T-90) and they do not fit with the Indian war doctrine.



MOD Message: HindustaniLadkha, consider this a strict and final warning. No more personal attacks on Fellow hubbers.

[lordstanher]

The Lazy and Currupt govt employees that we have can screw up any world class technology.

Unarguably true indeed! :lol:

[Sandeep]

Anyway, the only planes taht are falling out of the sky are the MiG-21s. The MiG-21s are from the 1960s and they have been in service with the IAF for a very long time. As they get older, their mechanical quality deteriorates, so they start failing in the sky. the IAF has been upgrading them to MiG-21 Bisons. The MiG-21 Bisons have not had any mechanical failures so far and they have proven to be very effective. In an air excercise with 4 US F-15Cs, according to a US pilot, a MiG-21 Bison took out both of his wingmen before they were able to notice it on radar and it took him out shortly after.

Not just MIG-21 others like Jaguar, MIG-23, Antonov-32, MIG 27 are also crashing. And most crashes have been blames at negligence in maintanence and not pilot error. Even the airforce chief has blamed HAL for poor quality of maintanence.



The problems in the LCA and Arjun programs have been fixed and the IAF plans to Induct LCAs before 2010.
Yes LCA will be out in 2010 after 19 years of delay.


The army has only purchased around 150 Arjun Tanks. It has not purchased more because they are expensive(they cost twice as much as the T-90) and they do not fit with the Indian war doctrine.

Exactly my point. We indeginiously develop a tank that doesn't fit our "war doctrine" and that also twice costlier that a much better T-90. All this when India is known for lower production costs. After all T-90 is Russian not Chinese.

[HindustaniLadka]

f\From the data i've seen, the MiG-21 have crashed much more frequently than the others. The MiG-23, Antonoc and MiG-27 have only crashed a few times and that is not something that is compeletely unexpected. Even the US Airforces F-16s and F-18s have had just as many crashes as the MiG-23s, 27s and the Antonov-32.
As replacement for these old aircraft, i was hoping the IAF would purchase more Mirages and Rafales, but that seems somewhat unlikely now because things are not going well with the French. America offered to give India customized version of the F-16C and F-18E/F Superhornet plus the coproduction rights and all the parts and supplys. If the US keeps its offer, i think India should go with the F-16s and F-18s. These American planes will benefit the airforce in many ways, they will provide the IAF with new advanced technology, new weapons and more flexibility.

The LCA and Arjun programs were delayed mainly because of US sanctions, today, the sanctions have been lifted and the versions that exist today are up to date. I don't know about the usefulness of the LCA(i think the government should have purchased more Mirage-2000s instead of funding the LCA program), but i think teh Arjun has a lot of potential. Based on its specifications, it is comparable to the US M1 tank and it can be very effective in the battle field. It has very heavy armour, powerful weapons and it is capable of performing in any environment. The Indian war doctrine can be easily modified to include the tank. The inclusion of heavy tanks in the Indian army will render many of the tanks in the Pakistani army useless(msot of the Paksitani tanks are light tanks that are basically reverse manufactured T-55s with Chinese turrets). If the army does not want to induct the Arjuns, i think it should purchase Israeli Merkava tanks since hey are combat proven and they fit into the Indian war doctrine.