IR's composing technique

[thops]

I'll give you a break :-) Yes, numerous appearances. NizhalgaL, Saadhanai, Villupaatukaaran, Pudhu Pudhu arthangaL and 2 more movies. And in one of these movies, the opening scene is GA and others going to invite Raja for doing music and soem dialogues follow. Either Karagaatakaaran or Enga ooru paattukaaran, I dont remember. "and what is wrong in IR singing a song in each of his movies other than your personal nonpreference for his voice.... " Its not just my non-preference. Technically, there are better singers who could have sung those songs. Even amongst IR fans, his voice evokes mixed opinions. That should tell you something.

6 out of 800 is numerous !!! okay i think there is no point in discussing this...yes it was karagattakaaran...and see "inviting" is a better choice than "begging"...i think the fraction of his fans who do not like IRs singing is insignificant...of course if every time you make this point would count as an extra fan then the number would be high :-)...

[vijayr]

Thops, 6 times is numerous enough when compared with non-appearances from others. This, supposedly coming from someone who is media-shy and shunned publicity.

As for his singing I like(and prefer) his singing too in certain songs(Kaattu vazhi is the latest one), but not enough to warrant him singing 400+ songs several of which could have gone to more deserving singers. And I am sure many IR fans would agree with that too, as much as they like his voice.

[vijayr]

rprasad when did I "adamantly insist my opinions were always right"? I am just defending my views, thats all. Your outburst only reflects on your maturity(or lack of it) :-)And I do have some knowledge of certain first-hand accounts of several people based on which I make comments.
Anyways, there can never be a proper excuse for bad songs, especially in large numbers.

"so what if he complained publicly of same situations being given to him, it does not mean he hated the work."

it doesnt mean he liked it either. No one before(or after) him has publicly complained about the same situations/movies and have ended up doing 50 films a year. Rafi and KK are singers, not composers. They can only sing what has been composed. They have added value to even some of the junk compositions in certain instances. Thats the best they can do.

[app_engine]

OK, getting back to the topic, let me ctrl-c/v of a part of Theodore Baskaran's article from the Hindu
link:
http://www.hindu.com/thehindu/mag/2002/01/06/stories/2002010600150500.htm

The following part is really interesting:
No other artiste's career symbolises the popularity and hold of film music, as does Ilayaraja's. He has been at work in Tamil cinema for 25 years and has composed music for more than 800 films in five languages. For the Tamil diaspora, Ilayaraja has emerged as a cultural force.

Ilayaraja came on the scene 45 years after film music had first appeared. When he entered Tamil films in the mid 1970s, there was stagnation, in film music and in the type of films that were being made. Ilayaraja's innovative creations came as a whiff of fresh air. The song that made him famous in his debut film "Annakili" (1976) "Annakili Unnai Theduthu" (Annam is looking out for you) was authentically folk and soon was playing throughout Tamil Nadu. The film "Kavikuyil" (1977) stabilised his position in the film world.

There are three elements of Ilayaraja's music, the first is the folk music of the Tamils, such as the work songs and march songs. The second is Carnatic music and the third European classical music. Folk music has been used earlier, but quite functionally through classical music idiom. Ilayaraja brought it in with its soul, with its earthy, rooty characteristics. He used authentic instruments like tharai and thappattai (drums). In many films he has demonstrated his skill over Carnatic music, handling some difficult ragas. In 1989 when the Classical Musicians Forum honoured him, Ilayaraja pointed out that classical musicians were not being innovative and were parroting the same ragas and songs. He went on to point out that film musicians, just to survive, have to be creative.

When he came to Madras in search of fortune, he learnt Western music and quickly became familiar with Western Classical. In fact when Ilayaraja went for his first audition in 1968, the piece that he played on his harmonium was Laura's theme from the film "Dr. Zhivago." Much later, in 1989 after dominating the film music scene for a decade, he brought out his first independent album "How To Name It" in which he established his mastery in fusion music. One critic (C.S.G. Prasad) has suggested four factors as the basis of Ilayaraja's success as a music director: his fidelity to the form he chooses, whether it is folk or classical, his musical imagination that provides evocative background score, his sense of harmony which keeps each song under control as it were and lastly his brilliant orchestration.

But most of all, Ilayaraja's understanding of the role of music in films is what set him apart. He realises that film music is not just music placed on the sound track of a film and that it should not be created as if it was a mere aural experience, isolated of the images of a film. It is applied music. It has to integrate with the narrative, not intrude upon it. It has to go with the images that appear on the screen and enhance the quality of cinema. It is part of a viewing experience. To achieve this, the music director should be familiar with the aesthetics of cinema, with its form and with its possibilities.

In cinema, a good music composer is not necessarily a good music director. Ilayaraja's comprehension of cinema is evident in his background scores, which add a new dimension to it. He pays closer attention to this aspect as few have done before. He watches the film fully, grasps the basic thrust of the film and adds appropriate musical score in the soundtrack. Ilayaraja has shown that just as imaginative lighting could enhance the visuals and their cinematic quality, so can background music. This can be pointed out as his defining influence. One film in which this is evident is Balu Mahendra's "Veedu." The film had no song. He also composes music to suit the lead characters of a particular film. This is new to Tamil cinema,. He says that he tries to understand the character, her/ his inner feelings and then decides on the appropriate music and instruments that would go with the particular character.

The director of the film "Bharathi" told me that when he showed him the film script and screened the rushes, Ilayaraja was quick to grasp that the liet motif of the film was the poet's famous lines "Having crafted a fine Veenai, would you fling it, so its timbre is ruined, in the dust"? In the last scene, this song has been placed as an off screen voice. At a poignant moment Ilayaraja joins in with his mellifluous voice to close the song and the film.

[kr]

I have given up posting responses to the postings of constant criticisisms andundermings of IR and his works in all of these threads eventhough I disagree with almost all of those criticisms.. I have rationalized my disagreements with such opinions as those expressed by people belonging to different segments with different tastes and preferences when it comes to music. However, the way these postings now read makes me think that it is written from the perspective that there can be only one opinion and that should match what is posted and whoever has opinions other than those are misinformed or purely blinded by admirations for IR and his works that their opinons lack objectivity. Unfortunately I cannot match such energy and persistence in voicing my contrary point of views.

However, I have come to a conclusion that IR could never do right again by their opinions. I decipher a passion of negativity against IR in these opinions that I have serious doubts that IR and his works will ver by right in their opinions again. There will always be a "but....". It is almost like Bill Clinton and the conservatives. Irrespective of the way Bill Clinton will be adored by his admireres, he can never do right by the conservatives. The same set of actions and opinions offered by Bill Clinton will evoke such different responses.

I truly value the spirit of freedom of speech and expression and is the basis of forums such as these. However, it has become a chore in the recent days to even come and read these postings because there is a constant indignation of IR. I do personally think that maybe in 100 years when people objectively evaluate the music from different composers during this time period devoid of biases shaped by socio, economic, demographic influences and current events of this era, the real relative wroth of these composers will be unearthed. And im my biased opinion, IR will stand above the rest. Until such onjective evaluations are made, I consider all other so-called evaluations just opinions.

I think people have choices. I do not think ARR's actual output in quality or quantity matches the hype nor in my opinion he is at a comparbale level with IR. However, I chose not to go in every ARR thread and insert my negative opinion over and over. I just do not invest even a dollar in his works.

Just musings of an IR fan. No disrespect meant - a contrarian viewpoint.

Also, now that I have taken the time to post a reply, let me register that contrary to views expressed I really enjoy four songs in Kargatttakari (kattu, enga ooru laila, samthule, kotti vacha), Peria marudhu, Three songs from Thedi vandha Rasaa (the song by Malaysia Vasudevan is just phenomenal) etc.

[rajasaranam]

Thops, 6 times is numerous enough when compared with non-appearances from others. This, supposedly coming from someone who is media-shy and shunned publicity.

As for his singing I like(and prefer) his singing too in certain songs(Kaattu vazhi is the latest one), but not enough to warrant him singing 400+ songs several of which could have gone to more deserving singers. And I am sure many IR fans would agree with that too, as much as they like his voice.

Vijayr,

He was never shy about media at any point of time. his opinion about media is here

http://www.ilayaraja.freeservers.com/FOR-ART.htm

FRONTLINE : Why do you avoid journalists and critics?

Ilaiyaraaja : Why should I meet journalists and critics? First if the critics assume that they know music, they can straight evaluate my music and write about it, no one is going to prevent it. If they don't know music, I have nothing to talk to them about.I am not avoiding out of any fear of controversy or anything of that sort. All these critics approach me with a hell of preconceived notions. They literally use me as a mouthpiece to voice their notions about music. Why should I give room for this?

Exactly the same applies to you too wahtever i have shown in bold :)

Where in world did you get the idea [ and a sure one too] that many IR fans agree with your opinion. Why the hell you try to thrust your opinions on us?!!
Infact everytime i buy a album i see is there atleast one song sung by IR. I am A big fan of IR's Voice and i know for some extent that many of my friends too like his voice. I witnessed the whole theatre going berserk during the first day show of 'Pithamagan' When IR started singing 'Yaarathu Yaarathu'.
I like the rendition of 'Idayam oru koil' by IR more than SPB's or a 'Enai thalatta varuvaalo' by IR more than Hariharan's.
For true everyone knows its only SPB and IR who sing without any pronunciation flaws.
I remember only once IR voice being criticized to core when he sang 'Ullukkulla chakravarthi' for rajni in Panakkaran. not because his voice was bad but since it didnt suit Rajni.And similar criticisms have been done upon udit, Karthick, Sankar mahadevan etc., singing for Rajni.
Apart from this and your constant criticism of IR's voice ive never heard any badmouthing of IR's voice in my 30 years of life in TN.
Even semmangudi had praised IR's singing when he listened to some of IR's keerthanais'
If IR's singing was not good enough as you say then why did the whole industry wanted him to sing the Title Song??? Man his voice was/ is adored by millions of fans around the world. and one Vijay trying to change his own prejudiced opinion into a mass opinion is not going to help any cause.

I would like to end up with a true life incident - I was touring kerala a couple of months back. we started talking about music betn us friends The driver who took us around joined in the conversation and said he was a fan of IR and said 'Saare avar music vida enakku IR voice la irukkura jeevan romba pidikkum" . He is a very good friend of mine as of now and we talk frequently over phone and the conversation always revolve around IR.

[vijayr]

rajasaranam, I was talking about his appearance in films. Even with the press, he was more inaccessible as compared to other MDs. And the reasons he has given varies from interview to interview, depending on his mood.What you have posted is just one such reply. Even Kamal has recently said that IR is a "kuzhandhai" who cant handle publicity/press or something to that effect.

"Man his voice was/ is adored by millions of fans around the world"

Rajasaranam, I have seen many posting their opinions quite contrary to what you have said. And many of them are fans of his music. Even Thumburu, who has been defending IR here has expressed his apprehensions about IR singing in TIS in the TIS thread.
Millions of fans for his voice? How do you know? :-) I didnt say IR's singing was completely bad, I said he sang more songs (400+) then his voice warranted. And I know many who agree with me. (If I remember right,Actress Banumathi had once publicly criticized IR for singing) And IR himself says that its the listeners fate to listen to him sing in TIS, with a laugh :-)) Opinions on his singing are mixed, at best. Technically speaking, he goes off-key in many songs. But the emotional content compensates for it adequately in a handful of songs.

[rajasaranam]

And the same Banumathi when produced a movie had IR singing in it :twisted:

[rprasad]

Vijay, the fact that you keeping on talking about the same stuff in a thread which is not related to the thread shows your maturity level. Nobody is making excuses for Ir producing bad songs. For me there is just so much great stuff about IR that all the so called junk songs just dont exist for me and i dont waste my time trying to do research on those. But you seem to derive great pleasure in researching those. Thats fine with me , but this is not the thread for that.
You do not seem to have one constructive topic/idea for this thread to move forward. All you are concerned about is to argue with people about how many junks IR produced and why he did that. Is that relevant for this thread? as i told you why dont you open another thread for these topics. Nobody is preventing you from speaking your mind , it just has to be at the right place. we are trying to explore IR creative skills in composing here. Nobody is interested here to talk about Junks that he produced. We have too mugh good stuff from IR to talk about.
I hope you will stop here.

[kiru]

Actually, I opened another thread 'Hit rate of TFM MDs'. Vijay and others can continue this discussion there. Please devote this thread to the composing techniques'. I now have to go back quite a few pages to get some examples from Vinu and others to analyse in more detail.
There are so many things said in this thread which I dont agree or I think factually incorrect, but then again, I also, will adding to the irrelevance here.
More composing techniques write-up soon.

[vijayr]

rajasaranam, it was only during that movie she made that comment. I think it was Periyamma or somehing. IR just laughed it off.

rprasad, you have contributed to the digression too, so please spare the maturity crap...:-) Like I told earlier, if you didnt like my views you could have left it alone instead of responding to my posts. I replied to one post of venus a few days back(since he addressed some of my earlier points) and from then on it started - a few here started picking on my points and I had to back my views instead of remaining silent. A discussion/digression cannot prolong with just one guy talking. So if you are truly bothered about this digression address your concern to rajasaranam, thumburu and everyone else involved, because they dont seem to be stopping either. And see the first page of this thread for what I had written originally about styles of composing - lyrics for tune vs tune for lyrics with examples(from both IR and MSV). I havent seen you contribute anything apart from nitpicking my posts :-)

[rprasad]

Vijay,

you can count the number of times i responded it is nothing compared to your constant responses to every persons post. I have already asked people( including everyone and not only you, please refer to my earlier post) to stop and also threw in some points about Ir's style to discuss, but as usual you seem to overlook it and talk only about stuff you want. Everyone has an opinion it is not necessary to go on responding to others viewpoints with a view to justify your point. Lets stop here. Thankfully we have people like Kiru to bring some sense to this discussion and steer it in the proper path.

[kavin]

this thread lacks adequate input to do justice to its theme. analysing composing techniques of a music composer requires an understanding of music theory which is lacking in most contributors in this thread. hence the debate reduces itself to discussing reasons for composition rather than the technique. distraction and digression is achieved with ease.
kiru's futile attempt at diverting some postings away from this thread only has managed to bring about more digressions. Futile as it may seem, it effectively stopped the discussion about 'hit rates' and i should encourage kiru to start a thread every time a digression appears.
achuvinte amma gives a glimpse of the process in composition, as did guna, but there is a leap in both instances from what is discussed with the director and what comes out in the end. there seems to be a lot of work done after the tune is selected by the director and in IR's own words, very often, the output is different to what is chosen by the director. my guess is that the director conveys the idea and the composition session is just meant to grasp that idea, the rest is the confidence one has in the other. this confidence is something one cannot debate about, but just accept.
can somebody explain to me how swasathin thalam transforms from the sounds of harmonium, voice and thalam to what its final output is? IR records the discussion of tunes with his director in his audio files but what happens after that? i for one would like to get hold of this voluminous audio tapes of his discussions with his directors. i am also surprised that so early in his career he understood the importance of archiving his output which can match the scandinavian obsession to record keeping.

[tvsankar]

Some of the people in this threaed
Yarellam ir ku oppsite aga, kodutha topic la opinion solgireegalo, avargal ellam oru kelviku kandipaga bhadhil solla vendum.
In the threadyai arambitha Dinoarun indha madhiri 17 th pagekum ir in isaiayi criticise seidhavaraka start panninar?Earlier reply edhuvanga irundhalum 17 th pageil enna nadakiradhu?
Idhu pasu thol porthiya puli yin velai.
Indha madhiriyana oru knowledgeable discussion ku oru reply venduma ungalulku? agree disagree matum discussion illai.
Ellam enna seigireergal? engae irundhu kondu seigireelgal enru konjam ninaithu parungal?
Andha alaviruku ungaluku ellam knowledge irundhal indha thread yen ippadi thisai mari poi irukum?
Namaku enna therigiradho adhai than pesuvom.So ungaluku therindhadhai neengal pesineergal.Ponal pogiradhu!!!
Inimelavadhu unmaiyana IR composing tech patri pesinal adhai overcome seidhu reply pannugiraen enru solli indha threadai thisai thiruppa vendam.
Nammal nalladhu seiya mudiyamal pogalam. Anal kedudhal seiya vendam!! ADhu dhan manidhanin unmaiyana maturity!!!!
With Love,
Usha Sankar.
PS: Ennudiaya indha postku promiseaga yarum reply panna kudadhu.Idhu varai ennudaiya endha postkum indha page il reply vandhadhu illai.Ini melum vara kudadhu.Adhu nichayam IR patriya nalla post ku disturbance aga irukum.Nichayam idhu ennudaiya humble request!!!

[rajdes]

Well, vijay, if you take that line, I dont have anything to say.Lets agree to disagree.
Just an interesting aside. In one of the links given in the old responses, MSV says he has scored about 1700 movies.
Based on all MSV Fans knowledge here, how many of MSV movies will we be able to list here - why dont we try that may be ina different thread. THat would be proof because we should all be able to list out whatver memorables songs over the last 50 years of MSV> If we cant remember, those movies should not be in the list :-)
Lets see if we can make atleast a list of 500 movies,which would give a MSV a non-junk rate of about 30%. What say everybody?

[vijayr]

rajdes, I dont wish to continue this topic further here. (Read earlier posts).

BTW, MSV didnt say he scored for 1700 movies. The guy who wrote the article has said that and I have to wonder if it is a typo or a factual error.I have read some other numbers elsewhere. Even if MSV scored 20 movies/year for the last 50 years he would just reach 1000.
As for listing memorable songs from that era, it requires someone who is exposed well to that era and also has a decent memory :-) (Its also partly subjective, like the IR 1000 stars list which I thought had several duds) If this were 1997,98 there would have been many in DF who would have instantly contributed to that list. Dont know about current crowd. Anyways, listing MSV's songs is'nt going to change your opinion or mine on IR's duds( we would still be disagreeing), so I see it as mostly as a tedious yet futile exercise.If time permits, we both could discuss about it in some other thread.

[vijayr]

kavin,most composing techniques have already been discussed countless time before in this forum over the last 8 years.What a few here are doing is just Ctrl C and Ving from some of those old posts. Nothing much new in terms of input. You can go thru the archives and find a lot more.

[thops]

kavin,most composing techniques have already been discussed countless time before in this forum over the last 8 years.What a few here are doing is just Ctrl C and Ving from some of those old posts. Nothing much new in terms of input. You can go thru the archives and find a lot more.

vijay...i find it amusing that YOU are mentioning that there is nothing much new in terms of input here...your posts/cribs about IR have essentially been the same for the past few years...IRs recycling his tunes, guru/kks being the last good albums of his, his horrible choice of singers including himself, 400 dhandams by Malaysia, Mano, most of his music from mid 80s being dhandams, his inherent contradictions etc etc etc...everytime a new album of IRs releases it is the same arguments...and the same counterarguments...

of course you can blame IR for this...but since IR is beyond redemption at this point all i can do is plead with you to take up some other new cause...

[vijayr]

thops, I had already decided to stop discussing about this and then you still post this. Anyways, to answer you, my complaints about IR has been the same as far as his recent albums are concerned and since am the lone voice here having to defend my views against several newbies it seems as though I am repeating myself. But if you have been here in DF for a long time you will realize my complaints about his recent albums are very new as compared to a topic as jaded as IR's composing technique-which was been beaten to death by 1999 itself.

[kiru]

"my complaints about his recent albums are very new as compared to a topic as jaded as IR's composing technique-which was been beaten to death by 1999 itself."

What can I say Vijay, I am your complaints are very fascinating to you :-) , as can be seen by your active interest in defending it..Where as some of us poor souls here find the "topic as jaded as IR's composing technique" find it fascinating. This is what drives people like me to go read the archives of rjay and srikanth's posts and analyze the songs in the light of techniques which these posters have eloquently elaborated for the benefit of many enthusiasts like me. If not me, I am sure many people will be writing and talking and celebrating IR and his achievements, not necessarily here but in other forums/media. I dont think you will be successful in dampening this energy how much ever you try. Good Luck.

[tvsankar]

Dear Vijayr
I understood somethings from ur postings!!!
1. You know a lot of things about the Music!!!!!!
Avatrai ellam engaluku purindhu kolla mudiyavillai.ie Kazhudhaiku theriyuma karpoora vasanai!!!!
2.IR ai vida u will give good music!!!!!
What a pittty TFM did for past 25 years!!!! We missed ur musical skill in TFM!!!!
3.You carefully preserve this thread's PURITY!!!! pL keep it up!!!
4.But See your feet now!!!
You are postings kupai mails in this thread!!!
IR DID TIS!!!!!

[rajdes]

Vijay,
No problem. I am not interested in really raking up this issue. Fact is since you are the one who is constantly claiming a lesser junk rate for MSV, in particular MSV, I would expect that you would have atleast a list of 100 exceptional- okay lets reduce that expectation- above-average MSV albums. I wouldn't expect hardcore fans from earlier era to come and contribute to that, really.
But it serves no point any way. I am convinced that as far as junk goes, if we really take pains to dig deep into all output of all MD's, junk rate will more or less work out to the same. Except maybe ARR, who, by sheer lack of prolificity, has contained that. However, that is not going to stop HCIRF's from claiming all he produced was junk anyway :-). My take is ARR is not bad and has produced mostly above-average stuff but his range of exceptional stuff wouldn't be that unquestionably high.

[baroque]

[tscii:d1eaefcf32]some one asked for Chorus songs of IR, there you go...
“ ye ayyasami.....” only Balu & Chithra duet. It has a themmangu pattu chorus, dialogues. What a galatta song!! Raaja is awesome with his flute, melam and Balu romantically sings ‘Vaaram naalaachu muzhusaath thoongi urakkam poyaachu vizhiyai neengi’ simply mesmerising!! Smooth transitions from folk chorus interludes to the charanams.
“Megam karukkaiyil...’ Vaidhegi kathirundhaal. The song opens/ends with a folk vocal chorus humming and chorus in interludes.
‘Ey raasathi rosapoo...’ En Uyir thozhan!!! Very pleasant chorus , humming, dialogues harmony, sung by gracious Malaysia Vasu.
Virumaandi’s ‘nethiyiley pottu vai...’ foot tapping chorus number! Listen to that Urumi melam! Thank you Raaja,‘Karumathur....’ My favorite number in this album. I am grateful to Raaja for giving me a full gramathu song. VIRUMAANDI - this life is not enough to enjoy this album! !
“Madhura marikozhundhu...” , “sundari vandaalam...’ Azhagi , ‘sandhu pottu...’Devar magan, Villuppattukkaran - “thandhanaththom solli....” , ‘poda poda punnakku...’En rasavin manasuley, “Raman aandalum...” Mullum malarum. Prelude & interludes have tribal chorus...many more!
[i] “Thamthana thamthana thaalam varum...” sung by Jency,Vasantha is a magical chorus song by Maestro Ilayaraaja in the movie Pudhiya vaarpugal(1979).
Mother of all chorus songs prelude with beautiful chorus humming, Ist interlude has violin works, beautiful chorus, pay attention to the flute , second interlude has bell sounds , fantastic veena, lengthy chorus humming , playful violin, back ground chorus humming throughout the charanams. simply marvelous!!!
[/tscii:d1eaefcf32]

[baroque]

[tscii:e9aec8150a]some one asked for Chorus songs of IR, there you go...
“ ye ayyasami.....” only Balu & Chithra duet. It has a themmangu pattu chorus, dialogues. What a galatta song!! Raaja is awesome with his flute, melam and Balu romantically sings ‘Vaaram naalaachu muzhusaath thoongi urakkam poyaachu vizhiyai neengi’ simply mesmerising!! Smooth transitions from folk chorus interludes to the charanams.
“Megam karukkaiyil...’ Vaidhegi kathirundhaal. The song opens/ends with a folk vocal chorus humming and chorus in interludes.
‘Ey raasathi rosapoo...’ En Uyir thozhan!!! Very pleasant chorus , humming, dialogues harmony, sung by gracious Malaysia Vasu.
Virumaandi’s ‘nethiyiley pottu vai...’ foot tapping chorus number! Listen to that Urumi melam! Thank you Raaja,‘Karumathur....’ My favorite number in this album. I am grateful to Raaja for giving me a full gramathu song. VIRUMAANDI - this life is not enough to enjoy this album! !
“Madhura marikozhundhu...” , “sundari vandaalam...’ Azhagi , ‘sandhu pottu...’Devar magan, Villuppattukkaran - “thandhanaththom solli....” , ‘poda poda punnakku...’En rasavin manasuley, “Raman aandalum...” Mullum malarum. Prelude & interludes have tribal chorus...many more!
[i] “Thamthana thamthana thaalam varum...” sung by Jency,Vasantha is a magical chorus song by Maestro Ilayaraaja in the movie Pudhiya vaarpugal(1979).
Mother of all chorus songs prelude with beautiful chorus humming, Ist interlude has violin works, beautiful chorus, pay attention to the flute , second interlude has bell sounds , fantastic veena, lengthy chorus humming , playful violin, back ground chorus humming throughout the charanams. simply marvelous!!!
[/tscii:e9aec8150a]

[baroque]

[tscii:95d228aec1]some one asked for Chorus songs of IR, there you go...
“ ye ayyasami.....” only Balu & Chithra duet. It has a themmangu pattu chorus, dialogues. What a galatta song!! Raaja is awesome with his flute, melam and Balu romantically sings ‘Vaaram naalaachu muzhusaath thoongi urakkam poyaachu vizhiyai neengi’ simply mesmerising!! Smooth transitions from folk chorus interludes to the charanams.
“Megam karukkaiyil...’ Vaidhegi kathirundhaal. The song opens/ends with a folk vocal chorus humming and chorus in interludes.
‘Ey raasathi rosapoo...’ En Uyir thozhan!!! Very pleasant chorus , humming, dialogues harmony, sung by gracious Malaysia Vasu.
Virumaandi’s ‘nethiyiley pottu vai...’ foot tapping chorus number! Listen to that Urumi melam! Thank you Raaja,‘Karumathur....’ My favorite number in this album. I am grateful to Raaja for giving me a full gramathu song. VIRUMAANDI - this life is not enough to enjoy this album! !
“Madhura marikozhundhu...” , “sundari vandaalam...’ Azhagi , ‘sandhu pottu...’Devar magan, Villuppattukkaran - “thandhanaththom solli....” , ‘poda poda punnakku...’En rasavin manasuley, “Raman aandalum...” Mullum malarum. Prelude & interludes have tribal chorus...many more!
[i] “Thamthana thamthana thaalam varum...” sung by Jency,Vasantha is a magical chorus song by Maestro Ilayaraaja in the movie Pudhiya vaarpugal(1979).
Mother of all chorus songs prelude with beautiful chorus humming, Ist interlude has violin works, beautiful chorus, pay attention to the flute , second interlude has bell sounds , fantastic veena, lengthy chorus humming , playful violin, back ground chorus humming throughout the charanams. simply marvelous!!!
[/tscii:95d228aec1]

[baroque]

[tscii:96440405e0]some one asked for Chorus songs of IR, there you go...
“ ye ayyasami.....” only Balu & Chithra duet. It has a themmangu pattu chorus, dialogues. What a galatta song!! Raaja is awesome with his flute, melam and Balu romantically sings ‘Vaaram naalaachu muzhusaath thoongi urakkam poyaachu vizhiyai neengi’ simply mesmerising!! Smooth transitions from folk chorus interludes to the charanams.
“Megam karukkaiyil...’ Vaidhegi kathirundhaal. The song opens/ends with a folk vocal chorus humming and chorus in interludes.
‘Ey raasathi rosapoo...’ En Uyir thozhan!!! Very pleasant chorus , humming, dialogues harmony, sung by gracious Malaysia Vasu.
Virumaandi’s ‘nethiyiley pottu vai...’ foot tapping chorus number! Listen to that Urumi melam! Thank you Raaja,‘Karumathur....’ My favorite number in this album. I am grateful to Raaja for giving me a full gramathu song. VIRUMAANDI - this life is not enough to enjoy this album! !
“Madhura marikozhundhu...” , “sundari vandaalam...’ Azhagi , ‘sandhu pottu...’Devar magan, Villuppattukkaran - “thandhanaththom solli....” , ‘poda poda punnakku...’En rasavin manasuley, “Raman aandalum...” Mullum malarum. Prelude & interludes have tribal chorus...many more!
[i] “Thamthana thamthana thaalam varum...” sung by Jency,Vasantha is a magical chorus song by Maestro Ilayaraaja in the movie Pudhiya vaarpugal(1979).
Mother of all chorus songs prelude with beautiful chorus humming, Ist interlude has violin works, beautiful chorus, pay attention to the flute , second interlude has bell sounds , fantastic veena, lengthy chorus humming , playful violin, back ground chorus humming throughout the charanams. simply marvelous!!!
[/tscii:96440405e0]

[baroque]

Sorry about the multiple postings! really sorry! love vinu.

[tvsankar]

Baroque
Neenga sonna song ellam good lists!!! Give some songs !!! Multiple post a irundhalulm different a iurku unga list!!! Pl continue this chorus topic pl!!!!

[tvsankar]

baroque
Did you read A.Vikatan? Sujatha told something about IR.I have one doubt!!! Vijayr ku Sujatha solra technical details theriyalai. :lol:
Then how can he tell about IR's dhundams and Msv is lesser dhundums? :lol:

[vijayr]

rajdes, wouldnt take me long to come up with 100 exceptional albums for MSV, can reel it off the topy of my head someday without having to see any discography. But I see it as a wasted effort since you have already made up your minds on MSV's junk rate.A futiler exercise for me.

Kiru, I know that you have been mostly Ctrl C and Ving posts made by several DFers from the bygone TFMDF era and rehashing it here. So I dont need to "dampen" that energy, go ahead. Guess what, the same ppl you have mentioned also have started these threads and contributed to it, check it out.
http://tfmpage.com/forum/29215.21952.13.55.31.html
http://tfmpage.com/forum/8625.11.31.55.html

[vijayr]

tvsankar, I havent even read that article yet as I dont have access to AV. So please spare us your senseless comments :-)

[baroque]

Kiru, Please go ahead with your postings, i really liked your analysis of 'thendral kaatre....'Tabala Raaja! Lets continue...

vijayr, Come on Sir, so what all of IR's techs have been discussed in detail millions of times here!! Some of us were not around that time, IR fans love to talk about his songs zillion times, same stuff,old stuff, new stuff... every time we find something new & excited. Enjoy music!!

[rajdes]

vijay,the discussion is getting fuzzy. Lets answer straight questions, shall we?
1. There is a strong suggestion that MSV did atleast 1000 movies across forums. If I remember right, he himself said 1700 in the link in old responses
2. If so, where are the 500 exceptional albums for 30% non-junk rate?
3. List out the 100 exceptional albums yo u think. It is not a question of convincing me but yourself. You dont know how many albums MSV did. You are guesstimating. When asked to provide a list of MSV movies , you said you have to refer to links or old DF-ers will provide, if they were. Now you say you can reel off 100 off your head. Why dont you reel off?

Okayy, dont respond to any of these above.Let me get specific as I see that you tend to fudge issues if I don get specific

Can you come up with a reliable list for 1963 and mathematically calculate the junk rate for me? I didnt want to get this specific but you are forcing me by fudging issues.
BTW, why is it difficlt for you to accept that of all the movies released in 1963, even Saravanan would struggle to come up with how many movies MSV did. If so, how are you so sure that major % of what MSV did that year is non-junk?

[vijayr]

digression:

rajdes, I dont see anything "fuzzy" about my reply. Like I said, I can come up with a list easily but I see it mostly as a futile exercise. I posted a link for MSV's discography from pazhaya paadal pakkam earlier. I am not sure if you saw it.
http://tfmpage.com/ppp/vr.html

(the links at the top)

If you have tamil fonts you can view movies and list them and we can analyze.

Another list here that actually compiles all movies released year by year
http://www.intamm.com/movies/movielist/moveilist2.htm#Tamil%20Movies%20Released%20between %201931%20%E2%80%93%201996

Shouldnt be difficult to isolate MSV movies in 1963.

I have also posted links to discussions earlier where the general consensus was that MSV did 350-400 movies and most of which are listed in the discography.

Pl continue in Hit rate of TFM MDs thread.

[kiru]

Folks, once upon a time on tfmpage there were really good people from whom I could learn something. I did
did credit rjay earlier for this in this thread. Most of film music knowledge was gleaned from such
individuals here. I have interacted quite a bit with rjay (who got me learning mixing with n-track) privately and havetalked to Srikanth over the
phone few times. Srinath was the one who got me noticing the basslines. I am thankful to these folks.
What I am writing here is all this knowledge I gained formatted to suit this discussion there. I am also generalizing the techniques so as to be manageable for a discussion. So let me get
to another post relevant to this topic.

[kiru]

Almost all MDs use a few idioms (or negatively put - a formula)to build songs. These idioms could be their own or somebody else's or something common. A good MD will create more idioms and use large number of ones. The ostinato idiom is something that is widely prevalent in the 20th century

An ostinato is sequence of notes repeated/looped. IR has used his technique to build light classical/popular melodies.
Listen to the two examples below

1. mazhai varudhu kudai kondu
2. poongkaaviyam pesum oviyam.

The pallavis are orchestrated through ostinato's. IR strictly follows the pallavi/charanam format.A charanam is usually the body of the song. It is like pasta as main course after eating various fancy appetizers. A real indian melody is better backed by a indian taala vaadyam and IR switches to tabla for the charanams (we'll talk later how this was an opportunity for ARR, now lets just note the composing technique alone)

[kiru]

IR always used tabla for classical/semi-classical based songs (there are exceptions to this generalization as well). As mentioned earlier, it suits indian melodies better (tabla is a compromise in film music for mridhangam/ghatam classical arrangement).
In these kind of songs, chords are kept to minumum and only light harmony notes are used. Serious WCM orchestration is used only in the interludes, sometimes without an obvious WCM flavor.Bass lines are used mainly only to highlight the rhythm/taalam. (Vice versa, when other orchestration techniques are being used, the beat pattern is left simple/looped and the chords/bass lines are laid over this rhythm pattern).

Listen to the example

1. sindhiya venmani sippiyil muththachu

In this songs, there are only 3 nadais use. One for the pallavi, which has another tabla overlaidfor just novelty. A slowed down version for the first part of the charanam, the same nadai as in the pallavi (when melliya noolidai) and another one when it starts as alliyum killiyum. THe strings backing for a subpart in the first part of the charanam is also a standard feature

[thumburu]

vijayr, why shouldn't I defend IR when u can sing bhajanai to MSV etal at the cost of IR?
"Now that he has retired from TFM he can sing, dance or play cricket or do whatever he wants:-) The point is, when he was the numero uno and TFM MD he didnt do all that. " - when did he announce that he is retiring from film music? Unlike MSV who acts full length in serials and movies , IR just appeared in one or 2 scenes and so what? when MSV can cash in on his popularity and act, why not IR? Iam talking about what is MSV doing musically these days and not about his resting on past laurels
app_engine does not collectively represent IR fans. I can discern between MSV, VK,GKV. SG could never really ape IR as his interludes and heavy bass were give aways. Where as he has composed like MSV in many songs like "unnai ethanai murai paarthaalum" , "kalyana ramanukkum", " aval oru pachai kuzhandhai" and sometimes the outcome was much better than what MSV did . VK also gave some superb melodies which was far better than what MSV gave like "unnidam mayangugiren" , "gangai nadhiyoram", "oraayiram karpanai", "vaazhvil sowbaaghyam" etc .
Why do we have to care about what he says in interviews? We all know he is full of contradiction. His work speaks for him.
The professional ethics of NOT ONLY IR , but few other older MDs should be questioned too for they too have their share of junks.
Singling out IR alone is mischievous and ulterior .

[thumburu]

sorry, I forgot the digression tag

[thumburu]

posting something relevant now - I felt his tabla usage was innovative in his few songs for erotic situation Take "raja rani jackie", "en deham amudham"( Oru Odai Nadhiyagiradhu) , "Paadhi kaLin mayakkam" (Shankarlal). The tabla had overloaded meaning than what it is usually used for. I also recollect Gangai Amaran's
"vandhanam en vandhanam" from Vaazhve maayam

[vijayr]

thumburu, I have given up on this discussion. But to answer you one last time, MSV did'nt appear in films and serials in the 60s when he was the numero uno MD and when he could have gained something by appearing in films(like how IR did in the 80s). I dont care what he does now. He isnt active in TFM any more and you know that. He probably has time to explore his other talents. If you pretend not to understand my point or arguing just for the sake of it then live in your own delusional world.

[tvsankar]

Vijayr
Digression!!!
Pl participate in the tabla discussion on IR songs in the right spirit!!!Now you discuss on THIS subject.This is the good way of discussion.
The outcome of the discussions should identify the GEMS of IR for the valuable readers!!! Not a junk one!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
With Love.
Usha Sankar.

[vijayr]

tvsankar, OK here are a couple for you

pudhiya poovidhu from Thendrale ennai thodu had a nice "tabla tarang" complementing the main melody lines. Its an instrument where there are different pieces of tabla drums that can be tuned to different notes of the scale and can be used as a melody instrument even though its percussion. IR had used it as a sort of counter to the pallavi. You can hear it distinctly during the pallavi

Kaalai nera kaatre from bhagavathipuram railway gate had a different rhythm pattern that I hadnt heard in any other song. Usually in IR's songs the first table beat that you hear coincides with the start of the melody line. But here the tabla waits till about 2 time measures(or aksharas as they call in carnatic) before it starts off and merges seamlessly with the main melody line.

Recently, Ganashyaama from Kochu kochu santhoshangal has a rhythm pattern that changes every line - a rare characteristic for an IR song. Although the thala is misra chaapu(7-beat cycle) throughout, IR changes the nadai every other line.

In the second version of "kurangu kayyil maalai" from Mumbai express you hear a small prelude with just percussion and little else. Its difficult to decipher/notate where the beats fall in the first two or three listens, it seems they are all over the place and dont fall in the usual places where you expect them to(although the overall timing of each cycle works out to be the same), but its been purposely done that way probably to represent the chaotic situation the song conveys.

[vijayr]

The last 2 examples in above post does not necessarily refer to tabla but more towards percussion usage in general.

I am listening to another song which has eluded me a for a long time. sandhanamittu sadhirradum from Ruchi kanda poonai uploaded by a kind DFer
http://web.music.coolgoose.com/music/song.php?id=186491

A melodious tune with an interesting rhythm pattern

[baroque]

Vango, Vango, Vango VijayR!!! See, you have so much to offer positively. Very kind of you,share your knowledge with us!!! Great Day! Vinu

[tvsankar]

Vijayr
I saw ur post!!! You told good nos.Thanks for the nice write up !!!! Indha azhanga skillai ellam vittutu epadi kupai mails panna manasu vandhadhu adhuvum niraiya page ku!!!
Kiru
Thank u for ur postings!!!!
Indha post ellam padtihu nichayam enjoy panraen.

[tmrrmt]

Guys, keeping aside IR's composing technique, as a layman who loves IR's creations, I am deeply disturbed by the lack of spontaneity in IR's music nowadays - just listen to a "Madai thiranthu" from Nizhalgal, and then listen to "yenna paattu" from ONOK - you will know what I am saying

I was listening to "KALKANDAM Chundil" a Malayalam song by IR - omigosh!! sweet, invigorating,groovy bass lines and a vintage IR breezy meldoy with complex flowing interludes - that is the IR I want to hear - sob, sob, sob!!

[tmrrmt]

"meldoy ' should read as "melody"

[kavin]

[tscii:4717b5bd0d]MASSIMO SIMONINI (Composer & Founder of ANGELICA forum, Italy) - The music of ilaiyaraaja, besides containing many forms, is a good object of reflections and meditations on the form, on its consume, for an eventual, possible expansion. It shows models & rare formulae, unthinkable for the western music song world or western cinema. His film songs feature a metrics that is strictly linked to the images, to the atmospheres of the movie, while the movie itself appears to be composed by a myriad of narrative video clips, which in turn give the song an opening towards other musical forms - A moving open form, that is strictly linked to the inspiration of the moment, ready to welcome anything in a surprising structure, enriched by a, still so strong, indian tradition, where rhythm, melody, devotion and surprise travel together. These entities are seen moving in places where style and form can be continually re-discussed, while still following a logic, a narration. It¹s almost like a kaleidoscopic song, full of rules, but also rich in expressive possibilities...keeps moving...truly vedic .[/tscii:4717b5bd0d]

[njv]

Recently I have been listening IR albums a lot (I mean almost 9 hours at work, 2 hours during commute and 1 hour at bed!) and the more I listen, I completely agree with IR that music is just a "sitthu velai". Since I have been listening a lot, I could easily figure out which song resembles which other song. This came to my mind recently and want your opinion.

Neramidhu Neramidhu Nenjiloru and Snegithanae Snegithanae Ragasiya Snegithanae - is the latter one inspired from the formar?

[vijayr]

njv, not even close :-)

[kr]

njv:

I agree. the first lines are very close. "Neramidhu Neramidhu" and "Sngeidhane Snegidhane" starts are very similar.

[app_engine]

njv,kr,

similarity illeengO...minjippOnA, oru word -mhoom, oru syllable- that will be there between any songs of same meter...

Please focus on Raja's techniques...kindly refrain from bringing other musicians here...:-)

[tvsankar]

Raaja's tech in film music nu oru phd yae seiyalam.Avar niraiya options la seidhu irupar.Hero vai base panni avaroda composing style irukum.
For Rajani, Kamal,Karthick,Mohan,Ramarajan - Ivaragalai manadhil vaithu songs and bgm oru form il irukum.
Anal nichayam repetition irukadhu.Nichayam nadikum hero vin style or story il repetition irukum.Ana IR songs and bgm il repetition irukadhu.Anal andha hero vukana touch irukum.
Adhil Mohan have had a very good opportunity!!!! All mohan films are hit in nos.Songs are marvellous in all his movies.
IR composing nalayae Ramarajanum mohanaum nadipadhu pol thonrum.
Storyai base panni isai amaitha IR GREAT aaga irupar!!!!
Angae pudhu IR ai pakkalam!!!!
this is my opinion about IR composing.Ana subjecta pesa therijavanga pl sollunga.Kekkarom!!!
Kiru contiune ur class!!! i try to learn something!!! Kekkara songai indha madhiri info voda kekkum podhu new dimension kedaikaradhu!!!! I like it.

[tmrrmt]

Tvsankar - I can immediately point out that Kamal's movies had a distinct arrangement/instrumentation, heavily leaning towards percussion innovation, heavy (very heavy) bass lines, especially the mid 80s Kamal movies

with come back with more observations later

[sseshadri75]

was listening to idayam oru kovil (IR version) title song. Till now I have heard only the SPB version but today heard the IR version and was totally taken back!What a difference.

Amazing violin orchestation including veena and flute interludes.
Note the fast violin interludes just before the start of the 1st charanam
Then when IR sings looks like his voice is complemented with some instrument (basso?).All along the charanam,great tabla accompaniments.
Before the start of the 2nd charanam,female humming, followed with tabla and shehnai..
Again IR's voice is complemeneted with this instrument similar to 1st charanam.This is where IR's voice peaks...
Then follows shehanai..and fast violin interludes (which seems to be portraying a climax scene)...
Note the 3rd charanam,this time IR's voice is accompanied with violin interludes...again IR's voice peaks...
Towards the end of the song..amazing violin interludes reach a high pitch and the composition ends there (on a high note)...

Here's the IR version in coolgoose:
http://www.coolgoose.com/music/song.php?id=170816

[sseshadri75]

tvshankar:all said and done,thalaivar
herokku etha matri
story line ku etha matri
situation ku etha matri

paatu amaippar and timeperiod ku etha matri orchestration arrange pannirukkirar.....

the early 80's had emphasis on guitar and violins (with a western touch),then came violins with tabla and flute..then came violins with synth combo etc..

for example
Different Heroes similar subject movies:kizhakku vasal,chinna thambi,chinna gounder,ejamaan
Outcome: there was some rustic/folk touch to all the songs but each song was noticably different...

Two hero movie:agni natchatiram
Outcome: totally classly music in the 80s(oru new generation ku music amicha matri irundadu)

Same hero, different movies:vikram,kakichattai,punnagai mannan
Outcome: Situation and story line resulted in a varied set..but still all had bayangra techno BGMs)

(my 2 kaasu)...

[app_engine]

In the latest interview to Kumudam, IR reiterates what we have discussed a few pages back on this thread...He confirms that for a film, the director is in-charge and if he is knowledgeable, a good song results...From his statement about sahAna, atANA and the illustration of dOsai / idiyAppam, it's quite clear that `exacting team lead' influences the composer to a great extent...

[tvsankar]

In the same interview,when he told about TIS, he mentioned about two things.
1.Dedicatin.2.Kaala pramaanam.
Angae start aradhu IR in composing tech.He applied these two things from his first movie annakali and still now he is doing!!
Expression of the feelings!!!!!!!!!!
He is the king still now!!!!!!!!

[app_engine]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/tamil/highlights/story/2004/08/040805_filmsongs.shtml#38

This celebrates that there's no technique that IR hasn't explored...(avar payanpaduththAdha uththi illai)

appadi irukkumpOthu entha `composing technique'ai cholvathu, edhai viduvadhu...

[Music4Ever]

"appadi irukkumpOthu entha `composing technique'ai cholvathu, edhai viduvadhu..."

Ippadi solli full stop vechuttingaLe :) Rendu mAsama onnumE kaNOm inga.

[app_engine]

While many of IR's songs have great interludes homogenously leading to charaNam, some have that `extra punch' thing at the instant when interlude ends and singer starts the charaNam.

I used to always admire the ending of 2nd interlude in the song `idhu oru pon mAlaippozhudhu'. The flute asecends beautifully and instantly joined / replaced by a solo violin leading to the charaNam. However, Raja gives a big punch with a string combo for less than a second as the climax for the interlude, before SPB starts `vAnam enakkoru bOdhi maram'...I would've admired this ending 1000 times (right from the day I heard it in `valve' radio 2 decades back, to the PC headphone today)...

Yesterday I was listening to a CD given by a friend in my car. This contained some female (solo / duet) songs by IR. And here I heard another magical ending while waiting on a signal. The song being played was `kaNNukkuLLE yArO' by PS/SPS. (I think the film is `kai kodukkum kai'). I hadn't listened to this song much when it was released and didn't have an opportunity to do a deep dive (like I did during nizhalgaL era). It was during this time period that Raja's output was pouring like torrential rainfall and we had trouble in choosing what to listen and what to leave.

Anyways, the first interlude of this song has this magical moment (culmination of the interlude leading to the singer). Is it a single Cello or a group of violins or what! chara rara...Such a magical dive, probably jumping from a higher octave to next! So smooth and brilliant!

I ended up rewinding this portion 10+ times, before I reached my destination!

(BTW, I found PS struggling to sing this song. NOM to PS fans, poRumaiyA, nalla CD systeththila kEttupArunga, evvaLavu strain paNNarAngannu theriyum.)

[prabhudas]

Hi app_engine,
which is this collection? Is it a original CD released or a custom made compilation by ur friend, I happened to watch "Kai Kodukkum Kai" 3 or 4 days ago on SUN Tv afternoon movies, there are some great BG scores even for trivial fight scenes, I happened to record the movie unfortunately after that female duet " kannukkule Yaaro", I am looking for a original CD.
There is a title song by IR also, I never knew that it existed, it was a decent movie, yet because this movie was done after Rajini becoming SS bombed heavily, rajini, Revathi both have acted very well.
The "Nizhalgal" stuff was cool, I think we might have missed so many of such naunces in many other songs for either getting carried away from the breginning of the song itself or not paying close attention
prabhudas

[app_engine]

Prabhudas, I don't know whether it's compilation or copy of some original...but does not have anything printed...just a handwritten `ILAYARAJA MELODIES'...

[saradhaa_sn]

Dear all...

When we are discussing about good songs in this thread, just for a change, I want to introduce a worst song.

The great producers :A.V.M Productions
The great Director : S.P.Muthuraman
The great lyric writer : Vairamuthu (or) Vaali (sure one of them)
The great Music Director :ILAIYARAJA
The great Singer : S.P.Balasubramaniyam
The great Actor : Kamal Haasan

When all those 'greats' are combined in a song, can you expect it will a worst one....????....!!!!.
But it is there.

Movie : UYARNDHA ULLAM
--------------------------------

The multi millioner Kamal gives a party in a Star Hotel, and sing a song there with more respectable (?!?!) manner, to the guests:

"Enna venum thinnungada...doi....
Ulla mattum allungada....doi...."

Wow...what a song from that 'greats'.......!!!!!!!!!!!!!.

Why any one of the greats did not object that 'VERY GOOD SONG'...

I cant digest till now..., Can any of you....??...

[vijayr]

saradha, apart from 2 songs all others in Uyarndha uLLam belong to the category of the above song. I have always wondered as to what goes thru the mind of creators when they create songs like this. With some input from MDs themselves it will be interesting to find out someday.

[app_engine]

vandhAl mahAlakshmiyE, kAlaiththendRal, engE en jeevanE - indha mooNil endha reNdu ungaL choice vijay?

[vijayr]

First 2. Enge en jeevane is decent but I have grown tired of monotonous tabla-based dull SPB/KJY-IR mid-tempo songs of the mid-to-late 80s. This song is a typical example.Kaalai thendral is close too, but the tune/PS's voice saves it for me. VandhaaL mahalakshmiye-in spite of SPB's over-antics for Kamal the tune, rendition everything scores. A freaky light classical song.

[venus05]

Vijayr,

I thought Saradha sn was mentioning about the worst song (I interpret it as "could have been more respectable by picturaization, tune, rendition, lyrics etc." ) overall by greats (not just by IRs tune or beats).

From your statement

1. engeen jevane is a decent but you are tired
2. Kalai thenral close to decent
3. Vandhal mahalakshmiyae - tune rendition everything scores

Looks like none of them are in the worst category (like enna venum thinnungada doi...) . All of the above songs have decent picturization, tune and lyrics.

[jaiganes]

call me a country brute or whatever , but I loved Enna vaenum thinnungada doi!!!
Particularly the way SPB sings "Chicken biriyaaaneee" then follows it up with "Kedacadhai allu " (or something like that) and then the trumpets join in for a grand finale!!!
I pity those who can't enjoy this and other dabbanguthu songs like "Namma singari sarakku"(from kaakki chattai), "Jaathi illai betham illai"(kaadhal parisu). Real fun with SPB and IR putting fast dandanakka with Jazz and blues all set to sindhu bhairavi or kalyani or some proper carnatic raaga(arthaath:(i.e.,) There is a wonderful method in the perceived madness)!!

[saradhaa_sn]

Hi Jaiganes

By comparing "Namma singaari sarakku" with the song "Enna venum thinnungada doi" , where both the songs were sung for entirely different situations, I can understand your scaling performance.

In 'singaari sarakku', the song in in a pakka local 'cheri' area which is well suit for that location and situation. But compossing a 'original dappaanguthu' song for a high class function by a multi millioner, is somewhat undigestable.

[alwarpet_andavan]

In 'singaari sarakku', the song in in a pakka local 'cheri' area which is well suit for that location and situation. But compossing a 'original dappaanguthu' song for a high class function by a multi millioner, is somewhat undigestable.
Without going into the quality or the lack of it in the song in question, i know of incidents where "O Podu" was regularly played in discos frequented by whites in Durban and Jo'berg........:)

[vijayr]

venus, I didnt include all those songs you mentioned. I said"apart from 2 songs.." in my post. Songs like enna veNum thinnungada owe their very existence to SPB who gives his best even for such songs.

[venus05]

Vijayr,

In your first posting you had mentioned that in that movie apart from 2 songs all other songs are in "ennvenum" songs category.

As a response to app engine you pointed that vandhal mahalakshmi and Kalai thendral songs are okay songs and those are songs you mentioned as the "two".

Coming back to the context in which "enna venum" was discussed (cheap songs by greats), I disagree to the argument that "enge en jevane" is a cheap song by the greats (in tune, in lyrcis, in picturization etc.).

This song may (?) fit if the context of the discussion is lack of innovative rhythm, mundane tune etc., not in the context of cheap by greats.

"enna veNum thinnungada owe their very existence to SPB who gives his best even for such songs"

This can be attributed to other artists as well. IR gave best to the worst movie like Kadhal Ovium. ARR gave best effort to Uzhavan.

[jaiganes]

saradha wrote:

I can understand your scaling performance
I am honoured that the galactically stupendous of a genius saradha understands some aspect of me. Frankly I have not understood even a speck of what I am and what my "SCALING" performance is !!! :lol: :lol:
BTW what in the name of the universe is a scaling performance when it comes to discussion of music? Luminiscence please Empress Galactica?!!!
Getting back to such songs, it is the director who asked for such a song, so he got such a song(pickle and pappad song according to IR himself). However it was a popular song in its days and dont get what is the point in complaining about it 20 years later? :huh:

[vijayr]

venus, I said enge en jeevane is a decent song, I didnt say it was cheap. Read my previous post again. Here it is:

"Enge en jeevane is decent but I have grown tired of monotonous tabla-based dull SPB/KJY-IR mid-tempo songs of the mid-to-late 80s. "

My preference is for the 2 songs, but enge en jeevane isnt cheap or bad.

Plus you didnt have to explain about VandhaaL mahalakshmiye and kaalai thendral. I didnt include these songs in the cheap songs category at all.

[vijayr]

" Getting back to such songs, it is the director who asked for such a song, so he got such a song"

jaiganes, for the same situation better songs could be given and have been given by IR. If a song is good/bad both MD and director should take credit/blame. Praising a MD alone for a good song and laying the blame entirely on the director or the lyricist for a mediocre song is unacceptable.

[app_engine]

After a long time I had a chance to listen to `hey, I love you' yesterday (`unnai nAn sandhiththEn' song, found in another CD from a friend)...for some reason, I found this song fitting into the `smooth jazz' format (FM v98.7 in metro Detroit area, a station to which I listen while driving to work, for two years, and the music is soothing to my ears).

Can someone who is an expert in jazz (or the `smooth jazz', which is not boring like the traditional jazz IMHO) clarify?

I love this song, both for the voice of VJ & music... orchestration and chorus are quite catchy(ended up putting on the RPT mode on the player). The second interlude is extraordinary...

It's the songs like this that make one appreciate IR's brilliance in `presentation'. No great lines...not a great melody...(no big talent to boast on screen too)...Actually, they probably couldn't fit an imaginative / catchy poem to the first line and ended up repeating I love you...still, the overall format is very very catchy...

`thuth-thuth-thuth-thurururO
thuth-thuth-thuth-thooorurO' is probably the ancestor of all the `hairabbA's etc. of later years and the continuing trend...

[ananth222]

I'm not a jazz expert, but I think that IR has produced a lot of jazzy greats. It may be due to his knack with maj7 chords - some expert can point out specific songs and usages.
The most obvious is his use of maj7 in simple BGMs. Typical scenes like swimming pool scenes or expensive hotels etc. have this kind of simple jazzy maj7 chord strumming in the background. Like Amaj7 and Emaj7 alternating. Try it out if u have a guitar/keyboard in a jazzy rhtyhm (pattern like takita takita takita takita taka taka).

[ananth222]

check out this BGM from Netrikkan for similar effect:
http://www.ee.duke.edu/~vijay/BGM/netrikann/3-daddytheme.mp3
does anyone know the chords being played?

[app_engine]

Thanks ananth for those nice observations & also the link...
(pls also note I'm a gnAna soonyam when you talk about scales & major minor etc...)

[venus05]

Vijayr,


"My preference is for the 2 songs, but enge en jeevane isnt cheap or bad. "

So can I infer that your opinion

"saradha, apart from 2 songs all others in Uyarndha uLLam belong to the category of the above song"

is not valid any more?

[vijayr]

venus, I revised what I said first looooong time back. I am glad that finally the (tube)light in you burned :-)

[venus05]

Thanks Vijayr.

I am glad that super intelligent like you could respond to me. I am blessed.

Just Because you called me tubelight I am not going to be tubelight, I know my capabilites, I never assess myself by other's scale. But I do assess others by how they address others and also what they preach and what they do.

I am laughing at the irony of life, here you cannot even tolerate to your coDfers questions and you refer the co-DFers as tubelight or judging them as "has comprehension problem" and in the other thread you are complaining "IR is Arrogant / has attitude etc.," towards his co-workers. Good joke. I wish you see yourself in the mirror before calling anybody anything.

In none of your posts , you had mentioned that you have stood corrected. You were just evading by not answering to the point after a posting a sweeping statement without even caring to go into the details (before posting)of the songs in the movie.

Now I could see clearly see how could you arrive those magic 10%, 20% numbers for IR songs.

Interesting!!!!

If you go in detail you may need to "Revise" them.

[vijayr]

Venus, Oh so you are still bitter over that 10%, 20% thing, thats funny. Get over it. I did produce facts and figures when it mattered. Not in THIS particular discussion. The fact that I revised my first statement is very clear in my second one. Even AFTER I mentioned that enge en jeevane is a decent song you still asked me as to why I included it in the cheap songs category. And then you misread me as saying that vandhaaL mahalakshmiye and kaalai thendral were cheap songs and were giving unnecessary explanations as to how they were good, when everyone else understood what I was saying. When I pointed it out you chose to "evade" it.

Now who is having comprehension problems?

As for me not including enge en jeevane, no big deal. We are not compiling any accurate stats or figures here. If we have such a discussion then I'll bother to back every post of mine with stats. Now,Isnt it very obvious that I revised my first statement? To everyone else it is , not for you probably(until it is explicitly stated in high caps I presume). You have serious issues.

[Music4Ever]

Here is a tabla based mindblowing number by IR:

Indha mAn undhan sondha mAn
pakkam vandhudhAn sindhu pAdum

interspersed with lilting strings (?) between words and then the scintillating

sindhaikkuL Adum deepamE kaNmaNiyE
sandhikka vEndum deviyE ennuyirE

Then follows super interludes that are entirely in line with the mood of the number. Salute!

I don't care if this number could have been enhanced if some trained singer had rendered in place of IR. As it is, the song is a life giving melody.

[venus05]

Vijayr,

You are assuming that I am bitter about your 10%, 20% numbers. Yes you have mentioned the right emotion "It is Funny".

Is there any proof that I am bitter about your numbers. Never in my previous posting or in the current posting, had I mentioned my liking or disliking for you 10% 20% numbers. My bitterness is immaterial here. I drew parallels between your claims (and later come and revise it) and you have inferred that I am bitter about your opinion by assuming something.

Obviously you have comprehension problem here.

Like this I can come up with your problems or issues. It is not going to resolve. So let us move on.

Still if you need to narrow down who has probelms or issues, let us take it offline.

Thanks.

[vijayr]

"Is there any proof that I am bitter about your number"

the fact that you brought it up after 2 months in an irrelevant discussion is proof enough. Obviously you are harboring some grudge from some past discussions and trying to harp on an insignificant point when the person who posed the question initially(app_engine) itself didnt bother to continue with it and seemed satisfied with my reply. You werent involved in anything here and tried to jump in the middle after wrongly assuming that I was criticizing all the good songs in the album. To me, thats proof enough.

[venus05]

Vijayr,

I visit this site from '97. I was never involved in the personal attacks or character assasination (either on a fellow DFer or any other artists) to have any grudge on you or for that matter on anybody here. If I need to tell, I will do it right away.

Involvement has to start somewhere. It is a thread of discussion and nobody has any ownership, anybody can ask for clarification and keep going. And I see you do that all the time (jumping in).

I do not want to disturb a person living in the world of assumptions. Good luck to your assumptions (of course when you do it , you call it a proof, nice try) and the subsequent judgements based on them.

Bye.

[vijayr]

Venus, I have been here for over 8 years too and I can discern between a genuine question and a potential flame-baiter.Even after I had clarified myself to the poster concerned earlier, you kept pretending as if you didnt understand what I said.And then you mentioned something about me "evading" you(which was funny) and quoted some of my posts from other threads. It doesnt take a whole lot to put two and two together. I dont stand corrected. My choice is those 2 songs from uyarndha uLLam and even though enge en jeevane might not be cheap or vulgar(which I clarified) it does belong to the enna veNum thinnungada doi category for its mediocrity. Thats what I meant earlier and there is no correction or revision to that. And secondly, I just noticed that saradha hasnt mentioned anything about cheapness or vulgarity as far as enna venum song is concerned. It was just your interpretation. He just mentioned that it was a bad song which didnt fit the situation, period.

[rajasaranam]

Why isn't anybody discussing about "Ottachattiya vachikittu" :?
JG i know you love this song very much as i do ;)

[venus05]

Vijayr,

In ur previous posting you did mentioned that
"you kept pretending as if you didnt understand".
So you infer that I understood your response from the beginning. Then how come did you comment referred me as "tubelight" in your earlier posting.

Either I was pretending or tubelight. I cannot be both. Both of them are your comments on me. Are you contradicting yourself or do I have "comprehension problem" or is an another incident of "revising".

My previous posting is as follows:

"the worst song (I interpret it as "could have been more respectable by picturaization, tune, rendition, lyrics etc." ) overall by greats (not just by IRs tune or beats)"

You put together and preceived that my interpretaion is "Vulgar". Yes. You can put together anything like this according to your outlook or perception. You have all the right to do so.

[vijayr]

Venus, it was you who first used the word "cheap" in the context of the song. Saradha didnt mention it anywhere.

"So you infer that I understood your response from the beginning. Then how come did you comment referred me as "tubelight" in your earlier posting. "

Well only from your previous post(when you made comments like "evading" etc.) it became clear that you were trying to play dumb, probably expecting me to make an offical announcement saying I was wrong about enge en jeevane or something to that effect(duh!). Either that, or you were trying to cover up the fact that you completely misread and misunderstood my initial comments on the topic. Your pick :-)

[venus05]

Vijayr,

You were only clear when I wrote something down the line in the discussion. But you have already judged upfront without any basis(what is the reason etc.,).

My pick is as follows,

This shows how you jump into conclusions in haste without knowing the full picture.

You wanted know what evade means,
When I showed that I did not introduce the word "Vulgar" in the context (which you had mentioned in ur previous posting as my interpretation) , then you changed the context into "cheap". Keep trying.

[vijayr]

Venus, my judgement is based on the content of your posts, period.

What do you mean by "full picture"? What, do I have to wait for another year to get a fuller picture? Absurd.

"When I showed that I did not introduce the word "Vulgar" in the context (which you had mentioned in ur previous posting as my interpretation) , then you changed the context into "cheap". Keep trying."

I said "cheap or vulgar"(I used "vulgar" synonymously with the word cheap). You did say "cheap" right? How about explaining that? who is evading here?

A better example of evasion would be when you completely misunderstood my very FIRST post in this discussion. You assumed I was criticizing vandhaaL mahalakshmiye, kaalai thendral etc. and were trying to tell me back as to how they werent bad songs. That was really funny. When I pointed it out, you didnt bother to say that you stood corrected. And then you misquoted me as saying that enge en jeevane was cheap, when I clearly said in the previous post that it was a decent song. Again when I brought it up you didnt bother to say that you stood corrected. And you are accusing me of "evading". Laughable irony for sure. Come to think of it, I should have been the first one to accuse you of evading and responding selectively. Nice tries there, to cover up your own misunderstanding.

[Music4Ever]

It is more than an hour past midnight, but I simply cannot let go this number, replaying it now for about a dozen times! It appears in the movie Deiva Vaaku and is sung by none other than the Maestro himself along with a female, probably SJ. It is all the way IR in this lilting number and to me SJ fails to impress. The song starts with a beautiful prelude involving the guitar and flute, with the guitar going
tang da dang dang
tang da dang dang
and the mesmerizing flute creating the mood. God, it is unbelievable music. Then IR goes

VaLLi vaLLI ena vandhAn vadiveElan-dhan
puLLi vaithu puLLi poTTan pudhu kOlam-dhan (tang da dang dang)
solli thara solli kEttu
dhinamum solli thandha sindhu pAdinAn
valli inbavalli endru
dhinamum mullai charam kondu soodinAn

The first interlude is richly decorated with flute and some chorus humming. The second interlude is violin and flute in tandem. The violin especially is haunting here.

[tvsankar]

Film : Pudhu pudhu arthangal

song : Eduthu naan vidava en paatai
Thozha thozha

Beautiful thalam!!!! Beautiful composition!!!!!

[venus05]

http://users.wireweb.net/green/pianolessons.htm
In the above link, there are some very interesting lessons on bass patterns. Please click lessons #26,#27,#28 and #29.

In the lesson #28, the author introduces the "Walking Bass Pattern". He explains that there are hundreds of patterns like this used in Rock& roll and other style of music.

At the bottom of the page he gives a link to a MIDI file where he has used the pattern in a actual song.

http://users.wireweb.net/green/pianolesson28.htm

I could think of three songs in which IR used similar patterns

1. Rum Bum Bum (Rock and Roll???)
2. Baa Baa
3. Vanam enna (vettri Vizha)

It looks like IR used several of these patterns and created his own patters as well to meet TFM requirements.

I remember the discussions on "Base guitar usage by our MDs" by TFM DF experts like Srikanth, Srinath, Rjay, Swamiji,Sashi, Sridhar and others. Interesting and informative discussions. Missing those discussions.
Thanks.

[app_engine]

2. Baa Baa ...what song is this?

Probably `pudhu mAppiLLaikku nalla yOgamada' too can find a place in your list...

[venus05]

app_engine,

Your correct. In my list #2 is Pudhu mappillaikku. Sorry for confuding by not giving the enough wordings from the song. Thanks for pointing out this.

It is interesting that , in the same movie for two different genere of songs, IR used similar patterns and in "Raja Kaiyavecha" song, IR used differnt base pattern (to me in this song it is more of rhythm accompaniment).

All of them are good to hear and entertaining as well.

Thanks.

[venus05]

oops...Please replace "confuding" with "confusing" in my previous posting. Thanks.

[app_engine]

http://www.hindu.com/fr/2005/09/30/stories/2005093000070300.htm

Profile on TVG...classical training under TVG gave another dimension in IR's compositions (probably from the rajapArvai period)...the fusions thereafter had a different feel compared to the `lighter' ones prior...

[saradhaa_sn]

oops...Please replace "confuding" with "confusing" in my previous posting. Thanks.

If anything wrong, you can edit in same posting, by clicking 'Edit'.

[S.Balaji]

IR's thala nadai technique during the late 70s and early 80s was..

I mean in tabla

tak tak tak tak...

To list a few :

1. Sindhu nadhi karai oram andhi neram
2. Neramidhu neramidhu
3. Vaan megangalay
4. O Vaanambadi unnai naadi
5. Vaa ponmayilay nenjam ekathil thavikudhu

This thala nadai was prevalent until the early 80s .....

[S.Balaji]

I remember one more song to the thala nadai of IR those days...

Chinajiru vayadhil enakor chitiram thonudhadee.. from Meendum gokila...

the same thalam...

[njv]

dont know if this qualifies to be in this topic. I was listening to Akkarai Seemai Azaginilae from Priya and the first interlude seems to be very familiar. Can someone let me know what it is...

Second interlude is same but different instruments!

[Sanjeevi]

What about the rhythm of 'Ennai thalata varuvala' song. Fantastic and suberp composition.

The following songs has same (or 50% or more matching) rhythm which is enjoyable.
Vennilavukku, priyasaki, atho antha nathioram, ooho kalai kuyilkalae, meenamma and many songs.

[venus05]

I haven't heard of IR reusing the rhythm style of the following songs. IR has not reused the following style rhythms. He might have used some variation but not reused in the similar manner or in the exact way (like the "muthumani malai" rhythm was used in hundreds of songs in a similar syle) .

The interesting thing about this is, most of these songs are rhythm dominated or rhythm oriented and were real hit. Normal trend is to follow the success formula.

1. Thottam konda Rajavae
2. Thanne karuthirukku
3. Marugo..Margo marugayee
4. Malai kovil vasalil
5. Thathom thalango thathom
6. Kattu kuilu manasu kullae
7. Annathae aduraar
8. Enjodi manja kuruvi
9. Kavithai pattu kuilae in vasanthamae (sounds like Dolta tin was used for percussion)
10. Thendral vanthu theendum pothu (soft drum touch)

It is possible that I would have missed to hear some of the songs with the rhythm of the abovementioned songs.I will be more than happy if somebody can point out another song with the same rhythm style.
Thanks.

[krish244]

One of his recent rhythm for which my head unconsciously tries to dance is the rhythm pattern that accompanies the beginning of charanam of "Andha Kandamani.." song of Virumaandi. I really love the rhythm at that point. The tune, rhythm pattern, the lyrics & the singing seems to be a perfect match. The entire song as such has got pretty good percursions.

thanks,

Krishnan

[rajdes]

njv, not sure if it answers your question, I automatically go to "idai oru kodi...idhazh oru kani..." saranam of (guess this song!) from the interludes of Akkarai Seemai

[app_engine]

Clue - it's from a Thamizh film which had the same name as a Mohanlal Malayalm film with IR's music:-)

[rajdes]

app :-)

[Jilaba]

Raja brings out the feelings of the song musically even before the lryics are Added to it and this is the height of creativity. In case of Prewritten lyrics the MD already has something to work upon-- like he has got a lyric which has got all feelings/emotions written and its only a mere juxtaposing of different tunes and coming up with a good one to suit the situation and lyrics.
Idhellaam summa kathai.

Already yedhavadhu tune pottukittu, adhukku thagundha vaarthaigal thedurathu easy.

But, already written lyricsuku, adhuku suitable music compose pandrathu kashtam. Tune ku thagundhapadi words change panna mudiyathu, wordsukuthaan tune potaaganum.

thatswhy IR selected the easy method of 'mettuku paatu'.

[manyu]

I first visited this thread only yesterday. I spent all of today to read the posts. Now I’m half way through. (Into June posts). So I don’t know the “dhandam” discussion is going on. Anyway here is my thoughts on it.

And Vijay, I agree with most of what you said.

In late 80’s and early 90’s most of the good directors who have worked with Ilayaraja earlier didn’t get any more work or Ilayaraja had some misunderstandings with some of them. This definitely had a bearing on his songs. First of all the lyrics suffered. Then slowly he started loosing ground. (That’s only in the number films he was doing)

A person who sees only the films Sivaji acted after 1978-79 (leave out a ‘Mudhal mariyathai’ here, a ‘Thevar Magan’ there), would’ve killed you if you call Sivaji as ‘Nadigar Thilagam’. Look what Amithab is doing to his career now. He is not that great actor in the first place. But he is doing only the roles suited for him and by doing so raking so much accolades from all corners. That’s what Ilayaraja should’ve done after 90’s. Instead he still dished out film after film which had lyrics which looked like newspaper columns. Only keeping the lyrics in mind, his music of the early 80’s surely stands out.

[manyu]

One more thing happened because of Ilayaraja scoring so many films in his peak period. It killed the competition. He did all the good films. He did all the mediocre films. (OK almost). He was not merely the No.1 - By talent he is No.1 - he was the only one.
But look at the TFM now. IMO, ARR is No.1 MD now. But you can easily counter that point, ‘coz the field is more open now. Cashing in on his popularity ARR could’ve easily done many more films. Because he refuses to do so, we get to see so many MDs. After 50’s, this is the time so many talents are working together. We can’t call this anybody’s era like we called 80s Ilayaraja’s Era.

[netfriend4u2005]

manyu: does any one music director or sound engineer have the guts to make a film hit like IR did in his peak time as u claim now?

Even Harish jayaraj and ARR says that they want to work with only best of people and team only. What that means, all others are working with nuts and idiots according to them?

S A Rajkumar once screamed in Kumudam article that all good directors and movies are with IR hence he is not getting any chance to prove. Now what is he doing for last 10 yrs???? He is living with one hit edho oru pattu and remixing for every other movie. K Balachander promoted Mani sharma as the the most talented MD in film industry for his intro in Tamil movie, it sounded as if teasing some one at that time directly or indirectly. But at the end what happened to MD also to KB-- all were just waste.

The new MDs know only to score music on keyboards and artificial sounds nothing much to say

[great]

if anybody is interested in knowing the raagas used by IR ....

go through this site....

http://www.geocities.com/ilaiyaragam/index.html

[app_engine]

http://www.raaja.com/Rv_guru.pdf

Quite interesting reading material...

[njv]

Sorry if this is posted earlier. Spent about 4 hours reading this amazing articles. Will come back to it agian later.

http://www.lolluexpress.com/ilaya1.htm
http://www.lolluexpress.com/ilaya2.htm
http://www.lolluexpress.com/ilaya3.htm
http://www.lolluexpress.com/ilaya4.htm
http://www.lolluexpress.com/ilaya5.htm
http://www.lolluexpress.com/ilaya6.htm
http://www.lolluexpress.com/ilaya7.htm
http://www.lolluexpress.com/ilaya8.htm
http://www.lolluexpress.com/ilaya9.htm
http://www.lolluexpress.com/ilaya10.htm
http://www.lolluexpress.com/ilaya11.htm
http://www.lolluexpress.com/ilaya12.htm
http://www.lolluexpress.com/ilaya13.htm
http://www.lolluexpress.com/ilaya14.htm
http://www.lolluexpress.com/ilaya15.htm

[app_engine]

Though this is not exactly a `composing technique' issue, since this affects the quality of music, I think the following question can be raised in this thread...

Which of the songs in moondRam piRai had stereo recording originally? (If someone still has the LP or someother OST medium, please clarify)...