Ancient Indian scientific Heritage

[pradheep]

Click this link to read great contributions of Ancient scientists Rishis)

http://sakthifoundation.org/ind-her-final.pdf

This is a pdf format. what is good is that it actually gives the sanskrit sloka with it as a proof.

This collection was done by Dr.Gopalkrishnan, a great Indian scientist at IISH.org


Enjoy.

[aravindhan]

This article (which I read) brings up something that has puzzled me for quite some time. Why are we becoming so obsessed with trying to prove that everything that is good or laudable originated from India? They may or may not have - I'm not going to open that can of worms - but does it really matter? It's pretty clear that India is very far from being the world's centre of sciences today, and that it isn't going to magically become so just because it may have been at some point in the past. Isn't it more important to focus on our problems today (lack of a scientific temper, galloping overpopulation, superstition, casteism, communalism, illiteracy, child labour, people dying of starvation, and so on)? How is proclaiming our ancient greatness going to change any problems that plague modern Indian culture and society?

I get the feeling sometimes that we are just running to our ancient past because we are ashamed of our present. I wish we wouldn't be - if we should take pride in our country, it makes a lot more sense to me to take pride in our country for what it is today, not for what it may have been in 8000 BC.

[pradheep]

Dear aravindhan
very good question and insight about the present Indians.
Why do we sing about past glory?. It is history. why do we learn history?. Because it tells us who we were and what was ourglory and also our mistkes.

Look into your own personla life, dont you tell your kids the greatness of your family or do you only open only your family's rotten can of worms?. Of course we should caution our kids the mistakes but should give more importance to impart our family tradition so that they also know their heritage. But just advising would notbe enough , we have to live and be an example.

India had been the cradle of civilzation and knowledge. In every culture people with wisdom had been killed, crucified or posioned. But India had nurtured great men and women.

Here I know Indian kids do not even know to speak their mothertongue. It is shame to the kids mother and dad. if a kid does not know "Mother Tongue" , then the kid's mother has failed in her first step of motherhood. How can culture come without mother tongue. Just wearign Indian clothes and eating Indian food is not Indian culture.

I have seen wherever Indians get together we talk only bad about indian culture. How can their kidsthen like to go to india even for a visit?. we give a bad impression of our own mother-land that has nurtured us.

India is a mother though poor and has starving kids and different cultural background is still great compared to all other cultures. There is civil war in countries with one single language, life style. Indian with more than 300 dialtects and multi cultural is about to home "peace".


Taking bad of India is not the solution to overcome social problems. Social problems can be abolished if each one of us strive to remove it. Talking about our glorious past is a postive attitude giving us hope that we can make ourlives betterand abolish social evils.


So ultimate message...is it wrong to be positive and have a positive attitude?

[Badri]

It is because we have forgotten the glory of our past during the last few centuries that we are where we are, perhaps. As long as Indians were proud of their heritage, they had a motive to better themselves. It is human nature. If your father earned a four figure salary, you would want to better it and earn a six figure one. Even as children, we do this, and continue it as adults.

It is only when we forgot the glorious past, and pandered to the British rulers that we lost our self-confidence. Today, the greatest drawback most Indians face is a lack of confidence. I have been in "foreign" countries, and this is so evident there. Some of course, have been able to break that inferior feeling and have consequently emerged successful, but the vast majority is still reeling under the feeling of an apologetic embarassment of being Indian.

In times like this, it would help to recount the days of yore and step up our confidence levels as Indians.

Aravindhan said:


It's pretty clear that India is very far from being the world's centre of sciences today

Not true at all...we are today emerging as a major hub of development in Asia, and if the current trend is kept up, we would soon make a major impact in the world scenario as well.

There is no call to turn a blind eye towards the problems that India is facing, at the same time, there is a real need to be aware and make other Indians aware of the glory that was once India - if nothing else, it might atleast make us feel ashamed of the state we are in today in comparison, and might prompt at least some Indians to work towards bringing that lost state back again.

[NM]

Aravindhan said:


It's pretty clear that India is very far from being the world's centre of sciences today

Not true at all...we are today emerging as a major hub of development in Asia, and if the current trend is kept up, we would soon make a major impact in the world scenario as well.

There is no call to turn a blind eye towards the problems that India is facing, at the same time, there is a real need to be aware and make other Indians aware of the glory that was once India - if nothing else, it might atleast make us feel ashamed of the state we are in today in comparison, and might prompt at least some Indians to work towards bringing that lost state back again.

Badri,

That was very well said! Being a Malaysian Indian myself, I am always amazed at what our ancestors had achieved. A chinese friend of mine told me he that he was captivated by the beauty and the uniquness of Angkor Wat, built by Indians. He said "how can the first ever civilized people end up like this today? I can't believe it! I am sure you guys have something hidden in you and you just need some tweaking!! " .....I think what he said is true... and I don't think we are far from achieving it. I don't know what the media in India says but in Malaysia, the news mentioned, in a few years, India will be among the top 3 nations in the world - China, America and India - will rule the world economy!!
My Thai friends respect the Indians and are amazed when they find out Indians are tops in the cyberworld! A lot of "non-indians" are thinking that India/ Indians are heading in the right directions.... :cry: :cry: If Indians in the US or UK or elsewhere can do it, why can't the Indians in India?? I am sure we can do it!

[Badri]

Yes NM. Thanks for sharing what your non-Indian friends really think about us. It is a matter of pride that they respect us, if not for what we are today, then at least for our past.

And we are not that far behind even today. Information Technology has played a major role in India's prominence in the today's map. It is not just cheap labour as some people understand. It is quality, it is dedication and a willingness to work hard.

Earlier, the trend was that only Indians who went abroad (US for example) would work beyond 5 PM. And invariably, our own folk would say, "Trust us Indians to carry our slogging nature even when we go to US."

Today, the trend is so different. When I was in the US on a project assignment, even the Americans stayed on with us, late into the evening. I am seeing the same trend here in Australia now. People worldover are recognizing that the willingness to work hard that the Indians have is certainly appreciable, and if they (non-Indians) do not work as hard, they would most certainly lose out to the Indians!! And they respect our capacity to work hard, our dedication, our integrity. I have heard nothing but praise from our American, European or Australian customers!

Yes, maybe we are not as "cultured" as the Europeans or Americans are. But culture is what you define it to be, and that way, we are just as cultured as everyone else is.

Maybe we have poverty.Yes, but think about our population! With the kind of human resources that we have, poverty is inevitable. But why feel ashamed? Let us rather accept and see what we can do to alleviate the condition.

Maybe we have communal riots! Yes, but think about our diversity! Think of the richness of culture that different communities have brought us.

To badmouth about our own country is as good as badmouthing about one's own parents. Yes, our parents are not superdad and supermom, but does that mean we keep pointing out their faults to everyone? do we say to others that our mother is ugly, or fat or things like that??

Well, if some do, then I don't know what to say of them, but just as we do not speak ill of our parents, we should not speak ill of our country either. It is high time we put our cynicism behind us. Cynicism never helped. Instead of cribbing ad naueseum about how bad things are in India, it is infinitely better to see how good it was, it is and work towards how good we can make it in the future.

[pavalamani pragasam]

badri, :clap: "peRRa thaayum piRantha ponnaadum naRRava vaaninum nani siRanthanavE" :D

[HindustaniLadka]

Cheers Badri! :clap:

---deleted----provocative----

[a.ratchasi]

To badmouth about our own country is as good as badmouthing about one's own parents. Yes, our parents are not superdad and supermom, but does that mean we keep pointing out their faults to everyone? do we say to others that our mother is ugly, or fat or things like that??

:thumbsup:

[Badri]

badri, :clap: "peRRa thaayum piRantha ponnaadum naRRava vaaninum nani siRanthanavE" :D

Yes, Mrs PP. I did not know this Tamizh equivalent, but had in mind this same thing that Rama says to Lakshmana after defeating Ravana when I wrote that part. Vibheeshana offers the throne of Lanka to Rama. Lakshmana who sees the beauty of Lanka says,

"Anyway Bharatha is on the throne in Ayodhya. And Lanka is quite beautiful and properous. Why not accept this offer?"

Rama replies "Janani Janma bhoomischa swargaadapi gareeyasi"
meaning, "Mother and motherland are better than heaven itself. Just because another woman is prettier than your mother, would you abandon your own mother and call the other one your mother? Lanka may be more beautiful than Ayodhya, still, that is our motherland, and that is where we belong."

Thanks, Mrs PP for enlightening me on the Tamizh quote. Is it perhaps from Kamba Ramayanam then?

[pradheep]

Dear Badri
Beautiful post. Tamil is indeed a great language. Please do post like these words of wisdom. Instead of keeping these words of wisdom in ourknowledge bank, let us put them into action.

[aravindhan]

the vast majority is still reeling under the feeling of an apologetic embarassment of being Indian.

I have seen wherever Indians get together we talk only bad about indian culture.
Both of these are peculiar to NRIs, as far as I can see. People in India certainly do not have a feeling of "apologetic embarassment" and we most certainly do not diss India when we get together. Sure, we rant about current problems and frustrations, but that's not the same thing as denigrating Indian culture. We certainly don't do the latter.


if nothing else, it might atleast make us feel ashamed of the state we are in today in comparison, and might prompt at least some Indians to work towards bringing that lost state back again.
This is a fundamental point of difference between us. I see nothing to be ashamed about the state we're in today, and plenty to be proud of. The point I was trying to make in my previous post was that people need to overcome this irrational shame, not heighten it - and constantly running back to ancient history instead of looking to the many things in present India we can be proud of isn't helpful at all. What we end up doing is using the past to "apologise" for supposed inadequacies in present-day India, rather than standing up for the fact that present-day India is an amazing place in its own right - not because of what our ancestors did 25000 years ago, but because of what we are doing today. There is no need to feel inadequate or ashamed of being Indian, because India today is a place to be proud of.

For example, the new Airbus 380 is an amazing feat of engineering. But the next-generation backup navigation systems for this and future aircraft which Airbus will develop are being designed and developed by none other than HCL, Bangalore. This is the sort of cutting-edge work we Indians are doing today. I personally find such things infinitely more inspiring - and much more relevant in overcoming the challenges that our country still faces - than exalting the supposed achievements of our ancient ancestors.

All too often, the preoccupation with the glories of ancient India hides a sense of shame with modern India (not that I'm accusing anyone here of that). This upsets and angers me. Thevaram pugazh paduvarkal, aanaal sivan kovilai ikazhvarkal.


dont you tell your kids the greatness of your family or do you only open only your family's rotten can of worms?
Actually, my parents told me very little about my family's history until I was quite old. Instead of telling me how my great-grandfather gave away all our fields to his tenants and turned the ancestral house into a free hospital (or, for that matter, how the next generation squandered all the goodwill he had created), they tried to set an example by the way they lived and treated others. In my opinion, they did the right thing, and I try to raise my children the way they raised me. Family heritage is something to be proud of all right, but it is much better transferred in adulthood than in childhood - what we do today is much more important than what we were in the past.

[pradheep]

Dear Aravindhan
Yes you are correct. I dont see this only as an NRI problem. This is there in India and look what we have read as history. Do we read anything that we are proud of. we read only in history books about war, war war. Is there any thing more than that. Infact everyone wanted to come to india very rarely did indian kings go and conquer out and the reasons now we dont know.

I remember in school days one teacher told in the class that only indian acheivement was idli and sambar, rest all knowledge comes from western world. This is not correct. We measure success with materialistic progress and that is a blind measurement. There is more than that in life.

We are taught that our ancestors were idiots. Infact modern world is slowly progressing that the ancient values of life is the correct way of life. This is now seen in all fields, including medicine, psycology and other feilds. I understand your point...you look at technology aspect, but i am looking at life, which is not a technology based.

This is why i encourage incorporating ancient wisdom in our lives to make the best of it.

[aravindhan]

I remember in school days one teacher told in the class that only indian acheivement was idli and sambar, rest all knowledge comes from western world[...] I understand your point...you look at technology aspect, but i am looking at life, which is not a technology based.

Two comments (not really disagreements, just comments):

1. It seems that I had much better teachers than you, and I'm glad for that! I do believe that a teacher who had the temerity to say some such thing to students in my school would have lost his or her job.

2. As far as life is concerned, I see even less need to go back to ancient traditions. We have a living tradition which is based on the ancient tradition and has evolved from it, and to me that is more valuable because it is closer to me. The wisdom of Basavanna, the dasa-poets of Karnataka, the siddhars, nayanmars, azhwars and the other Tamil poets is worth as much as the vedas and upanishads. But opinions (and tastes) differ.

[stranger]

* Why are we becoming so obsessed with trying to prove that everything that is good or laudable originated from India?

* They may or may not have - I'm not going to open that can of worms - but does it really matter? It's pretty clear that India is very far from being the world's centre of sciences today, and that it isn't going to magically become so just because it may have been at some point in the past.

* Isn't it more important to focus on our problems today (lack of a scientific temper, galloping overpopulation, superstition, casteism, communalism, illiteracy, child labour, people dying of starvation, and so on)?

* How is proclaiming our ancient greatness going to change any problems that plague modern Indian culture and society?

I get the feeling sometimes that we are just running to our ancient past because we are ashamed of our present. I wish we wouldn't be - if we should take pride in our country, it makes a lot more sense to me to take pride in our country for what it is today, not for what it may have been in 8000 BC.

Aravindan! Bravo!

"pazhamperumai pEsuvathu" part of our culture!

We have to be proud of what we are and we are no inferior to anybody. I wish it is true.

Are we going to prove that in science and technology?!

If so, When?

[pradheep]

Dear aravindan
I think I did not bad teachers, but they were not aware of their traditional heritage. Probably their statment drove me to enquire.

You are correct, but our living tradition ischallenged as always been and once in a while it is good to review and check whether we understand it in theright perspective.

[pavalamani pragasam]

[tscii:6ad2cf9a35]Badri, those oft-quoted lines I gave are almost proverbial, they are Bharathiyar’s, I think.[/tscii:6ad2cf9a35]

[gaddeswarup]

I think that it is true that a lot of great mathematics was done by Indians in the past. It is also true that there were some curious mistakes. It would be good to study why the great developments were not sustained. An article in this direction is written by a Swiss Samskrit scholar Johannes Bronkhorst : "Panini and Euclid:Reflections on Indian Geometry", which appeared in Journal of Indian Philosophy, 29, pp 43-80, 2001. I do not have a URL to this but if anybody is interested, I can send a pdf file of the article. Regards,
Swarup

[lordstanher]

I have seen wherever Indians get together we talk only bad about indian culture.

Pradheep,
Um....just wondering- r u sure its our culture itself they talk bad abt, or perhaps the lack of it (among our own ppl.)??
Altho I've lived outside India (Singapore), I personally haven't met ne Indians who bad mouth our own culture! In fact I've heard tat most of the NRIs try to show themselves as more 'Indians' than the Indians in India itself??
Of course, my sister (who lives in the US) also once told me tat many of the Indians who go to settle in the US r initially scornful and negativistic abt being Indians & from India!
And they mix around freely- sumtimes too freely- w/ the locals & adopt their social life/all their ways, until finally, after getting the Green card, they suddenly rem. their roots and turn a new leaf, re-adopting our culture/values and striving to maintain them within their families!


Taking bad of India is not the solution to overcome social problems. Social problems can be abolished if each one of us strive to remove it. Talking about our glorious past is a postive attitude giving us hope that we can make ourlives better and abolish social evils.

A good point! :D However, unfortunately, in today's scenario, the present gen. r under the misconception tat glorifying our glorious past and spreading our culture is the root cause of the social problems in our spciety! Which is y they r found to be going aginst it in ne way possible! :x


So ultimate message...is it wrong to be positive and have a positive attitude?

Nothing wrong w/ tat! :D But IMO its also necessary to call a spade a spade wherever need be! Or else we wudn't know where to develop ourselves! :D

[lordstanher]

We measure success with materialistic progress and that is a blind measurement. There is more than that in life.

Never was a true'r word spoken! :wink: :D
In fact I was once told tat the development of a country is measured not just by its technology but also the desire for materialistic satisfaction among its ppl.!
This made me understand the law of diminishing marginal utility, ie, the more u hav of sumthing, the less u want to hav of it and the more u want of sumthing else & so on....!
Its a pity tat evn ppl. in our society r giving up the best of our culture in satisfying this law! :x


Infact modern world is slowly progressing that the ancient values of life is the correct way of life. This is now seen in all fields, including medicine, psycology and other feilds. I understand your point...you look at technology aspect, but i am looking at life, which is not a technology based.

True. As Swami Vivekananda said, we need to adopt only the technology of the West and the Philosophy of the East (in this case India) in order to truly make progress! :D

[aravindhan]

An article in this direction is written by a Swiss Samskrit scholar Johannes Bronkhorst : "Panini and Euclid:Reflections on Indian Geometry", which appeared in Journal of Indian Philosophy, 29, pp 43-80, 2001. I do not have a URL to this but if anybody is interested, I can send a pdf file of the article.

I've read Bronkhorst's paper. I think he identifies an important problem, and does it well, but misidentifies its cause. He seems to suggest that the problem could have been that science was influenced by grammatical methodology (though there is no clear evidence for this). In my opinion, it was much deeper than that.

Panini's grammar, from a methodological perspective, embodies two trends. The first is the trend towards the primacy of exegesis in scholarly discourse. For some reason, texts by renowned scholars came to have a very special status, eventually becoming a source of knowledge equal to or superior than observation. The second trend is the increasing importance of inductive reasoning, where you used specific examples to derive generalised rules. Taken together, these are capable of producing devastating errors.

But Panini's grammar did not create these trends, nor were they confined to grammatics. You find them equally in philosophical works of the period which - unlike earlier texts - only try to interpret, expound on and clarify the meanings of existing texts; and even the original work that is done still seeks support in interpretation of existing texts.

We see exactly the same disease in the mathematics of the period. Bhaskara tries to argue mathematics using rules of mimamsa. Mimamsa, for heaven's sake! And proofs - where they are provided - tend to be anecdotal, rather than deductive. Bronkhorst argues that philosophy in that period understood the concept of proof. He's right, technically speaking, but the form of proofs they used lacked rigour and routinely accepted exegetic and anectdotal evidence as "proof". Just as the mathematicians did.

So I don't think Bronkhorst adequately looks at what was happening in other disciplines. I think there is a readily available explanation for why the problems he identifies happened in Ancient India, as I've tried to outline above.

There is also a clear parallel with certain modern trends (not just confined to India), where ancient knowledge is being venerated without much independent inquiry. I would like to quote one passage from Bronkhorst's paper:


Aryabhatta is wrong where he gives the volume of a pyramid as: "Half the product of the height and the [surface of the triangular base] is the volume called 'pyramid'." The correct volume of a pyramid is a third, not half, of the product here specified... The same is true of Aryabhatta's incorrect rule for the volume of a sphere.

These errors are discussed in greater detail in a 1985 paper published in a French journal. It tends to flabbergast people because the idea that Sanskrit texts might actually be wrong is not something people think about (which is absurd - no human science can ever be wholly right about everything at any point of time).

And that, I think, is the biggest danger in the current trend of constantly exalting ancient works. Science (and any other field of inquiry) progresses best when it is most open and least dogmatic. Which is why (in my opinion) Indian science didn't progress beyond a point - and why even mathematicians as obviously gifted as Aryabhatta and Bhaskara made such glaring errors.

[gaddeswarup]

Aravindhan wrote

And that, I think, is the biggest danger in the current trend of constantly exalting ancient works. Science (and any other field of inquiry) progresses best when it is most open and least dogmatic. Which is why (in my opinion) Indian science didn't progress beyond a point - and why even mathematicians as obviously gifted as Aryabhatta and Bhaskara made such glaring errors.
_________________
I tried raising this question in two other forums and I have not received any response as cogent as Sri Aravindhan's. I think that Bronkhorst does identify one of the reasons that Sri Aravindhan mentioned namely the respect for received truths (see bottom of page 54 in Bronkhorst's artcle). Perhaps Bronkhorst is trying to see the influence of Panini in these attitudes instead of that of the whole culture of those times.
What is surprising is that some eminent scientists even now are trying to glorify the ancient achievement of Indians without trying to see reasons for stagnation. Recently, there is an artcle in EPW (September, 2003) entitled "Axiomitization and Computational Positivism" by Roddam Narasimha, FRS. Narasimha's theory is that the Indian astromers were not partcularly interested in theories but predictions. They seem to have been remarkably successful in this ; the accuracies of some of the predictions of Aryabhatta and others have not been surpassed until the 18th century. He calls this computational positivism. When I wrote to him saying that Aryabhatta and Bhaskara could have easily verified their farmulae by a few crude experiments, there has been no response.
I hope that Sri Aravindhan will write on a longer article and publish it.
Swarup

[pradheep]

Turmeric fights breast cancer in mice - Thu Jun 9, 2005

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Turmeric, a yellow spice used widely in Indian cooking, may help stop the spread of cancer. Tests in mice showed that curcumin, an active compound found in turmeric, helped stop the spread of breast cancer tumor cells to the lungs. Tests have already started in people, too, said Bharat Aggarwal of the Department of Experimental Therapeutics at the University of Texas M.D. Anderson Cancer Center in Houston, who led the study.

"Curcumin, as you know, is very much an essential part of the Indian diet," he added.

"What's exciting about this agent is that it seems to have both chemopreventive and therapeutic properties. Earlier research showed that curcumin, which acts as an antioxidant, can help prevent tumors from forming in the laboratory.

For their study, Aggarwal and colleagues injected mice with human breast cancer cells -- a batch of cells grown from a patient whose cancer had spread to the lungs.

The resulting tumors were allowed to grow, and then surgically removed, to simulate a mastectomy, Aggarwal said. Then the mice either got no additional treatment; curcumin alone; the cancer drug paclitaxel, which is sold under the brand name Taxol; or curcumin plus Taxol.

Half the mice in the curcumin-only group and 22 percent of those in the curcumin plus Taxol group had evidence of breast cancer that had spread to the lungs, Aggarwal said in a study to be presented to a breast cancer research meeting in Philadelphia.

But 75 percent of animals that got Taxol alone and 95 percent of those that got no treatment developed lung tumors.

Aggarwal said earlier studies suggest that people who eat diets rich in turmeric have lower rates of breast cancer, prostate cancer, lung cancer and colon cancer.

His team would like to try giving curcumin to women who know they have a high risk of breast cancer -- such as those who have a mother or sister with the disease.

No drug company is likely to develop a natural product that cannot be patented, he said. "There are no companies behind it so our only source of funding is either the National Institutes of Health or the Department of Defense," he said.

[malligai]

Pradheep,

Thats a good article, thanks...

Now, lets all start stocking up our turmeric supply.. :)

[pradheep]

buy organically grown turmeric because in our experience we found that it is more potent. In USA find them in health stores that are imported from india.

[HindustaniLadka]

I hate how historians around the world try ot make people think that Europeans, Arabs and the CHinese developed all science, math, etc. and that Indians did nothing even though in realiy, Indian civilization was the first to develop advanced math and science. Even today, scientists do not understand some of the concepts that ancient Indian civilization used or knew about.

[Idiappam]

buy organically grown turmeric because in our experience we found that it is more potent. In USA find them in health stores that are imported from india.

Don't you think 'organically grown' is just a gimmick, just to get a few more bucks for a bag?

[Surya]

Hindustani Ladka, Exactly! :D

Did u know that in the ancient somanathapuram temple, the Indian architects had a Shiva Lingham floating in mid air, due to the position of certain magnetic pillars inside the shrine? Unfortunatly the temple was raided by invaders, and doesn't excist anynmore.
One of the Gopuram's shadow in the Thanjai Periya Kovil built by Raja Raja Chozan never falls on the ground. There is a Shivan temple in Mayavaram I think, (one of the better infromed hubber maybe could help me out on the exact location,) when Thean (honey) Abishegam and honey abishegam only is done to a Shiva Lingham, Parvati can be seen inside the Lingham. She cannot be seen if it's a milk Abishegam, or anything. This only works with Honey. These are just some, there are hunderds of tempels in India that are architectural/scientific miracles!

But these things are never mentioned here, outside of India, on...say the Discover Channel! Most of the things that the discover channel shows here, are programs like, 'THE ABOLA VIRUS BREAKS OUT IN AFRICA' or 'INDIA, THE BIGGEST AIDS CARRYING COUNTRY' or 'THE BUCKINGHAM PALACE, A MODERN WONDER!' :banghead: But when it coems to this, it's just easier for them to pass if off as "Just Stories" and "They did not have enough Knoledge to pull it off, therefore it's not true!" :evil:

[gaddeswarup]

Surya said:


But these things are never mentioned here, outside of India, on...say the Discover Channel! Most of the things that the discover channel shows here, are programs like, 'THE ABOLA VIRUS BREAKS OUT IN AFRICA' or 'INDIA, THE BIGGEST AIDS CARRYING COUNTRY' or 'THE BUCKINGHAM PALACE, A MODERN WONDER!'

I think that there is some truth is in this, but I remember seeing on one of the channels, either Discover(y?) or History in Australia, informative documentaries about Ayurveda , Yoga, Dance etc. According to one of these documentaries, Ayurveda is still practiced widely in Kerala and some times cures or improves the conditions of the patients in diseases which often cannot be handled by the standard western medicine.( But one of the same channels credits the British with breaking the Enigma code where as it seems to have been done by Polish Graduate students and given on a platter to the British). My impression is that now there are efforts to catalogue the traditional medicinal plants, and standard western type research to test some of the claims. It would be good if some body can find the names and addresses of such organizations.
Swarup

[Surya]

That's not the Discovery Channel known to us in the US. :cry:

[pradheep]

Dear Idiappam
|Organic foods are not gimmicks. I have personally researched the value of it.

the nutrient content are lower than the food grown through natural means. In 2005 a research study found the cancer preventing lycopene content was found in higher amounts in the tomatoes grown organically compared with those not. Objective of eating food is to get nutrients needed for the body. (do you need the reference material of the research).

It looks as if organic foods are costlier. This is what every one thinks. But the truth is different. Look at our observation from kitchen. My wife observed that when she makes spice-mix powder, she has to use a pound of non-organic coriander seed powder grown with pesticides and chemical fertilizers. To get the same spice level she has to use one fourth the amount of coriander seed powder grown organically. If you compare the cost, organic coriander seed powder cost three times than the non-organic one, but the net usage is less and so in fact she saves dollars by using organic spices. If spice levels are obviously higher in organic coriander seeds, then think about other medicinal and nutrient levels high in organic foods?. There are several research studies that support my wife's observation that organically grown foods have higher nutrient content.
You might be buying apples, tomatoes, rice, nuts by half or three times the price of organic foods, but in reality you are spending more money for less nutrients. So health wise and economically organic foods are in-comparably superior to non-organic ones. My wife also observed that 99% of the organic mung beans sprouted, while less than 60% of the mung beans purchased from Indian stores only sprouted. This also shows that the viability of the foods grown organically.


So idiappam, if we dont turn organic, we will increase the disease incidence higher. Did you read the latest discovery in science journal about pesticides causing genetic changes without causing gene mutations (i posted in music and pregnancy).

[HindustaniLadka]

That's not the Discovery Channel known to us in the US. :cry:

Our discovery channel is not biased...but it only shows programs about non-controversial stuff and it is ussually pretty accurate. It never talks about cotnroversial topics in Indian history like the AIT.

[pradheep]

[tscii:f870429691]
Testosterone link
David Perrett, professor of psychology at St Andrew’s University in Scotland, says that the results are unsurprising. “We’re actually pretty good at judging somebody’s personality by looking at their face – people get it right more than 50% of the time. In this study, people judging a face for competence in a politician were looking for attributes such as leadership qualities and dominance.”

“We shouldn’t be surprised if testosterone (and its effects) shows up on the face in terms of bone growth – an angular jaw or prominent cheekbones,” he says.

He notes that the former Conservative leader William Hague, who lost to the current UK prime minister Tony Blair in 2001, has a “baby-face”.

Journal reference: Science (vol 308, p 1623) 2005

does is sounds like Samudrika Lakshana - the science of face reading?

[/tscii:f870429691]

[Surya]

That's not the Discovery Channel known to us in the US. :cry:

Our discovery channel is not biased...but it only shows programs about non-controversial stuff and it is ussually pretty accurate. It never talks about cotnroversial topics in Indian history like the AIT.

I haven't seen anything on India that's positive on the disc channel. Now-a-days it's mostly things like "Motorcycle Mansion" or something.

Also the History Channel. They never show non-white history. Occatinally, I see things about the Civil Rights Movement. But other than that....not really.

[gaddeswarup]

Sri Surya wrote:

I haven't seen anything on India that's positive on the disc channel. Now-a-days it's mostly things like "Motorcycle Mansion" or something.

Also the History Channel. They never show non-white history. Occatinally, I see things about the Civil Rights Movement. But other than that....not really.

we may be getting out of the main topic; so please write to me seperately if you like. I did watch a little bit here in Michigan which I have been visiting every year for the last ten years. The selection of topics seems to be different from that in Australia. When I go back, I can post a selection from there. I do get the impression that compared to Europe and Australia, the mainstream TV channels and newspapers in USA give more selective information. This is only an impression since I found the TV here boring and have not been watching much. Regards,
Swarup

[Surya]

I've pm'ed u! :)

[lordstanher]

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Turmeric, a yellow spice used widely in Indian cooking, may help stop the spread of cancer. Tests in mice showed that curcumin, an active compound found in turmeric, helped stop the spread of breast cancer tumor cells to the lungs. Tests have already started in people, too, said Bharat Aggarwal of the Department of Experimental Therapeutics at the University of Texas M.D. Anderson Cancer Center in Houston, who led the study...........

Actually I rem. this was discovered in India 6-7 yrs b4 by sum senior scientists of the National Institute of Nutrition, Hyderabad (affiliated to Indian Council of Medical Research).... :)

[Idiappam]

Dr Vijaya Lakshmi, Hydrebad. That was 10 years ago. Published her findings - clinical tests on mouth cancer patients - and treatment with turmeric.

I have her report somewhere - probably on the bottom shelve of the rack behind! SEe if I can find it.

[pradheep]

Dear lordstanher
You are right...National Institute of Health finds only very few like Turmeric have amazing medicinal properties. More an more modernresearch is proving it.

but I mean to say this knowledge of turmeric is centuries old. Having well researched it was incorporated in our dailylives, especially in rituals.

[lordstanher]

Dr Vijaya Lakshmi, Hydrebad. That was 10 years ago. Published her findings - clinical tests on mouth cancer patients - and treatment with turmeric.
I have her report somewhere - probably on the bottom shelve of the rack behind! SEe if I can find it.

Well, there was a Dr. Vijayalakshmi we knew.......she was formerly an assistant of my late father who worked in the same Institute at Hyderabad long ago......doesn't matter even u can't find her report......I can always try & ask her directly next time I visit Hyd. :D
Neways, the discovery I mentioned was actually reported 6-7 yrs ago & said to've been made by Dr. Kamala Krishnaswamy, the then Director of said institute (& also a family friend of ours).....
oh well, 'nuff of the digression......... :wink:

[lordstanher]

Dear lordstanher
You are right...National Institute of Health finds only very few like Turmeric have amazing medicinal properties. More an more modernresearch is proving it.
but I mean to say this knowledge of turmeric is centuries old. Having well researched it was incorporated in our dailylives, especially in rituals.

Pradeep,
no doubt even our gr8 grandmothers, w/ maybe not even 1/4th of the education tat research scientists hav, wud've long known the amazing properties of turmeric! :wink:
Unftly, our country gets little credit for ne such findings, however early they might've been discovered, comp'd to the findings from scientists of 'developed' nations who mange to make worldwide news w/ such discoveries, however recent they might seem to us!
If only such findings/knowledge from our ppl. received as much publicity as Bollywood films hav.......! :(
PS- I was actually referring to National Institute of Nutrition, Hyderabad.

[Eelavar]

Our discovery channel is not biased...but it only shows programs about non-controversial stuff and it is ussually pretty accurate. It never talks about cotnroversial topics in Indian history like the AIT.

it's not looking an american channel that you will learn somethings about Indians...
:lol:

[pradheep]

Study: Walking on Cobblestones Is Healthy

PORTLAND, Ore. - The path to better health and lower blood pressure may be paved with cobblestones. When people over 60 walked on smooth, rounded cobblestones for just a half-hour a day over four months, they significantly lowered their blood pressure and improved their balance, a study showed.

Behavioral researchers from the Oregon Research Institute investigated the health effects of cobblestones after observing people exercising and walking back and forth over traditional stone paths in China.
the uneven surface of the stones stimulate "acupoints" on the soles of the feet. The theory is much like acupuncture, suggesting that distant and unrelated areas of the body are linked together at certain points and can be stimulated to improve physical and mental health.

Indian traditional Yoga says that all nerve ending comes to foot and so giving pressure to those nerve ending is good for health.

[Ilavenil]

Dear Idiappam
|Organic foods are not gimmicks. I have personally researched the value of it.

the nutrient content are lower than the food grown through natural means. In 2005 a research study found the cancer preventing lycopene content was found in higher amounts in the tomatoes grown organically compared with those not. Objective of eating food is to get nutrients needed for the body. (do you need the reference material of the research).

It looks as if organic foods are costlier. This is what every one thinks. But the truth is different. Look at our observation from kitchen. My wife observed that when she makes spice-mix powder, she has to use a pound of non-organic coriander seed powder grown with pesticides and chemical fertilizers. To get the same spice level she has to use one fourth the amount of coriander seed powder grown organically. If you compare the cost, organic coriander seed powder cost three times than the non-organic one, but the net usage is less and so in fact she saves dollars by using organic spices. If spice levels are obviously higher in organic coriander seeds, then think about other medicinal and nutrient levels high in organic foods?. There are several research studies that support my wife's observation that organically grown foods have higher nutrient content.
You might be buying apples, tomatoes, rice, nuts by half or three times the price of organic foods, but in reality you are spending more money for less nutrients. So health wise and economically organic foods are in-comparably superior to non-organic ones. My wife also observed that 99% of the organic mung beans sprouted, while less than 60% of the mung beans purchased from Indian stores only sprouted. This also shows that the viability of the foods grown organically.


So idiappam, if we dont turn organic, we will increase the disease incidence higher. Did you read the latest discovery in science journal about pesticides causing genetic changes without causing gene mutations (i posted in music and pregnancy).

I agree with you Mr. pradeep. But, the cheapest way to get organic food is to relocate to India, we use semai uram there, no chemicals :lol: .

[pradheep]

I agree with you Mr. pradeep.

Dear Illavenil
Thank God you agreed soemthing I said.

[Eelavar]

[tscii:c55622be0f]Do people here know who was the first man in modern time to fly ??

It was not the the Wright Brothers...

In 1895, full eight years before the Wright Brothers first flight at Kitty Hawk, North Carolina, USA, Shivkar Bapuji Talpade and his wife gave a thrilling demonstration flight on Chowpatty beach in Mumbai !!!!!

just read that:
http://ebusiness.ada.gov.in/library/library/VymanikaShastra1.htm#_CHAPTER_–_1[/tscii:c55622be0f]

[kannannn]

Eelavar, Wright Brothers were the first to invent sustained, controller, heavier-than-air, powered flight, but certainly not the first to fly. In fact, Montgomery and Lilienthal were among the first to fly in heavier-than-air, but unpowered, gliders in 1870's.

[Eelavar]

kannan i'm not talking about an unpowered fying object.

[Eelavar]

kannan,

read that , you will understand that anciant vedic people known very modern time technical term...
In the Vedas they even talk about space orbital station...

http://www.sacred-texts.com/ufo/vs/vs00.htm

It's a part of the the Vimanika Shastra or Science of Aeronautics.

[pradheep]

Dear friends

here are nice articles about ancient indian scientififc technologies,espeically about prisms, chemicals, instruments etc.


http://sakthifoundation.org/IISH.htm

[kannannn]

kannan,

read that , you will understand that anciant vedic people known very modern time technical term...
In the Vedas they even talk about space orbital station...

http://www.sacred-texts.com/ufo/vs/vs00.htm

It's a part of the the Vimanika Shastra or Science of Aeronautics.
Eelavar, Thank you for the link. I spent a considerable amount of time going through the book and what I found was fascinating. Not because it added up to much technically, but because the author has fantastic imagination.

I am reproducing a part of the preface from your link to the book:


"If you are looking for an ancient manuscript on this fascinating topic, you'll need to keep on looking. The Vymanika Shastra was first committed to writing between 1918 and 1923, and nobody is claiming that it came from some mysterious antique manuscript. The fact is, there are no manuscripts of this text prior to 1918, and nobody is claiming that there are. So on one level, this is not a hoax. You just have to buy into the assumption that 'channeling' works.

...there is no exposition of the theory of aviation (let alone antigravity). In plain terms, the VS never directly explains how vimanas get up in the air. The text is top-heavy with long lists of often bizarre ingredients used to construct various subsystems. This includes items such as monkey skin, eagle bones, sea-foam, and many that are only named in Sanskrit. Often the recipes are a mix of plant, animal and mineral ingredients, and involve mixing these ingredients and cooking them at high temperature in a furnace shaped like an animal, such as a frog. One wonders whether we are talking about metallurgy here, or some kind of alchemy. Most of the systems are described as mechanical devices, powered by steam, electricity or even solar power; a number literally involve smoke and mirrors.

There is nothing here which Jules Verne couldn't have dreamed up, no mention of exotic elements or advanced construction techniques. The 1923 technical illustration based on the text (all of which are reproduced here), are absurdly un-aerodynamic. They look like brutalist wedding cakes, with minarets, huge ornithopter wings and dinky propellers. In other words, they look like typical early 20th century fantasy flying machines with an Indian twist. These illustrations do not (except in cross-section) resemble 'modern' UFOs. Nor do they look like ancient portrayals of vimanas, for that matter."

Let me add my own views: The design of any technical product begins with specifications (What exactly do you want the product to do?) and is followed by the means of achieving them (How?). In the case of aircraft, they include Range, Endurance, Speed, Weight, Power Plant and Aerodynamic Configurations, etc (It requires considerable working around to get the combinations right). Unfortunately, the book fails in all these aspects. There are no technical explanations to what is generally required of the aircraft, nothing specifically on what the power required is, and the most important component is missing: aerodynamics. There is no information on what kind of airfoil is used, what the aerodynamic properties of the wing are.. and the list could go on. In short, this contraption, if pushed off a cliff would hit the ground before you could say 'Vimana'.

Looking at where the book came from, I wouldn't give serious thought to its contents. It is just the work of an amateur, who knows nothing about aerodynamics and flight mechanics and who has just tried to pass on his fantasies to a gullible audience.

PS: your link to the supposedly first human flight by Shivkar Bapuji Talpade is not working. Could you produce the technical details here?

[Eelavar]

kannan,

It's not the full book and it is not the sole book which gives details about Vimanas, i will give you other detailed link..


To deny to Babylon, to Egypt and to India, their part in the development of science and scientific thinking is to defy the testimony of the ancients, supported by the discovery of the modern authorities. - L. C. Karpinski


The Jyotish (400 B. C) echoes the modern concept of the earth's place in the universe, the law of gravity, the kinetic nature of energy(Prove the existence of the so-called Free Energy, the Point Zero), and the theory of cosmic rays and also deals, in specialized but unmistakable vocabulary, with the theory of atomic rays. And what was thousands of years before the medieval theologians of Europe argued about the number of angels that could fit on the head of a pin. Indian philosophers of the Vaisesika school were discussing atomic theory, speculating about heat being the cause of molecular change, and calculating the period of time taken by an atom to traverse its own space. Readers of the Buddhist pali sutra and commentaries, who studied them before modern times, were frequently mystified by reference to the "tying together" of minute component parts of matter; although nowadays it is easy for a model reader to recognize an understandable description of molecular composition. By Charles Berlitz p

http://www.atributetohinduism.com/Vimanas.htm
http://www.atributetohinduism.com/Yantras.htm

[Eelavar]

Must see these video

http://www.desitorrents.com/forums/showthread.php?t=41580&page=4

http://www.desitorrents.com/forums/showthread.php?t=40285

I recommend everybody to download those documentaries trough a Bitorrent client.

P.S: you must be registred to download those files.

[devapriya]

Thank you Eelavar,

very Intersting links.

Thank you, the Vedic Knowledge is amazing.

Devapriya

[mahadevan]

It is with great degree of exhiliration that I profess that my 2 year old has an incredible understanding of astrophysics, using her play dough my daughter made a octagonal pattern on large rectangular base measuring 100 mm X 100 mm. X 100 mm evidence for its relation to the helicopter design can be found in the link
http://www.atributetohinduism.com/Vimanas.htm\
thereby I conclude that the scientist at NASA are just attempting to touch the tip of the ice berg that is the knowledge of my daughter !

[Eelavar]

devariya,

Enjoy it. 8-)

[kannannn]

kannan,

It's not the full book and it is not the sole book which gives details about Vimanas, i will give you other detailed link..
http://www.atributetohinduism.com/Vimanas.htm

Let us take one claim at a time. As far as vimanas are concerned, the link you have given quotes Mahabharata and vedas (BTW, I tried in vain to search in this link the verses quoted: http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/index.htm . Could you give the exact links to the verses from the vedas here from this site?). Your site again claims that the so called VS proves that the ancient Indians possessed knowledge of aircraft construction (which I have already shown to be insufficient and impractical). There are no technical details whatsoever. If quotes from the Mahabharata are what 'scholars' rely upon to prove the existence of aircraft in ancient times, I have to say they are wrong. Satellites and Internet are some of the ideas that were originally used in science fiction that later became realities. That does not mean that satellites or internet existed during the time of writing of the science fiction. To emphasize my point further, imagine our successors discovering Bradbury's and Asimov's works in the far future and coming to the conclusion that we infact had the technology to travel to the sun or other galaxies. Doesn't it sound ridiculous? I again request you to post evidence (technical documents) to prove that our ancestors actually possessed the technological know-how to manufacture aircraft.

PS: Could you post the technical details of the 'first human flight' you mentioned in your earlier post?

PS to PS: I am unable to register at the website where the videos are hosted (I couldn't find any option for registration). How do I go about it?

[Eelavar]

kannan,

Such documents are firstly not avaible for the public like us..

Rumors say that few years ago, a chinese team found a manuscript in China near the Tibetean frontier.
This writing was in Sanskrit and tell how construct a flying object or a Vimana (Vimanam in Tamil), the chinese team sent the manuscript (maybe and surely a copy) to the Benares Hindu University to decrypt it..
The major problem must be the understanding of such documents which are crypted in a special coded language , which use symbolism.. In fact you must not read and translate it blindly. You will not understand the hided meaning.


PS to PS: I am unable to register at the website where the videos are hosted (I couldn't find any option for registration). How do I go about it?

Now unfortunately you cannot register if nobody invited you..


DesiTorrents - Message
You must be invited in order to be able to register on DesiTorrents.

Send me your email in Private Message, i will help you. :wink:

The other who want an access can ask me to invite them.

[devapriya]

[tscii:4c01cf3ca3]Various Sciences from Indian Vedic Age:
LINGUISTICS
(Bloomfield, L., Review of Konkordanz Panini Candra Von Dr. Bruno, Leibich, Vol. 5, 1929, p. 267-276): ‘The descriptive Grammar of Sanskrit, which Panini, brought to its highest perfection, is one of the greatest monument of human intelligence and (what concerns us more) an indispensable model for description of languages. The only achievement in our field, which can take rank with it is the historical linguistics of the nineteenth century and this indeed owed its origin largely to Europe’s acquaintance with the Indian Grammar. One forgot that the Comparative Grammar of the Indo-European languages got its start only when the Paninian analysis of an Indo-European language became known in Europe…If the accentuation of Sanskrit and Greek, for instance had been unknown, Verner could not have discovered the Pre-Germanic sound change, that goes by his name. Indo-European Comparative Grammar had (and has) at its service, only one complete description of a language, the grammar of Panini. For all other Indo-European languages it had only the traditional grammars of Greek and Latin woefully incomplete and unsystematic.’…

AN Article from my Archives collection. Vedas has 4 UpaVedas and they are 1.Ayur Veda 2. Danur Veda (ON Politics) 3.Gandarva (Music) 4. Arththa.

From AyurVeda- on health
ANCIENT SURGERY & INDIA
Varanasi on the banks of the Ganges is one of the holiest places in India. It is both the city of Buddha and a destination of pilgrimage for millions of Hindus who come to bathe in the holy river. It is also the home of Ayurveda, one of the oldest medical disciplines.
Ayurveda means ‘science of life’, and its approach to the body is philosophical and holistic. Among the greatest of its ancient writings is the Sushruta Samhita, which describes the tradition of surgery in Indian medicine.
Its author is believed to have been the scholar Sushruta, who lived over 3,000 years ago. Sushruta is said to have been given his knowledge by an incarnation of the god Vishnu. However, it is also suspected that he was simply reporting medical wisdom that had been passed down by word of mouth for centuries.
Illnesses and instruments
In the book’s 184 chapters, 1,120 conditions are listed, including injuries and illnesses relating to ageing and mental illness. For instance, there are accounts of 76 eye conditions, 51 of which were treated surgically. The book also describes 101 blunt and 20 sharp surgical instruments, many of which are surprisingly similar to instruments used today.
Other treatments are also discussed, comprising 700 healing plants, 57 preparations derived from animal sources and 64 preparations from minerals. One of the plants was used to produce suturing thread that had immunity-boosting properties. Others provided pain relief and still others were natural antiseptics.
Leeches
Sushruta also recommended using leeches to keep wounds free of blood clots. This has only recently been rediscovered and is now used, especially in plastic surgery, to help reduce congestion in tissues, especially in wounds and in flaps used for reconstructing body parts.
Sushruta’s general advice to physicians would certainly apply to doctors anywhere and in any age:
A physician who has set out on this path should have witnessed operations. He must be licensed by the king. He should be clean and keep his nails and hair short. He should be cheerful, well-spoken and honest.
The first nose jobs
The compendium goes on to describe some extraordinary surgical techniques, including a revolutionary nose reconstruction, or rhinoplasty. It was common practice in ancient India to punish criminals by amputating the nose. As a result, Ayurvedic surgeons had plenty of opportunities to practise this.
They would cut a leaf-shaped flap of skin from the forehead, making sure that the end nearest the bridge of the nose remained attached. The flap would be brought down over where the nose should be. Then it would be twisted skin-side-out and sewn into place. Finally, to keep the air passages open during healing, two polished wooden tubes would be inserted into the ‘nostrils’.
In a few weeks, when the graft had bonded and blood vessels had formed, connecting the graft to the person’s face, the place where the graft was still attached would be cut. The secret was to keep the blood flowing. The brilliance of Sushruta’s method was his understanding of the function of blood in the largest organ, the skin.
DEVAPRIYA
[/tscii:4c01cf3ca3]

[bis_mala]

The descriptive Grammar of Sanskrit, which Panini, brought to its highest perfection, is one of the greatest monument of human intelligence

Hmm! But PaNiNi was a Tamil woman. Sivaperuman the Dravidian deity initiated PaNini into writing a grammar for the northern language.

[thamizhvaanan]

and the paniniyan type of analysis was also done in tholkappiyam. which one came first? :huh:

[thamizhvaanan]

kannan,

Such documents are firstly not avaible for the public like us..

Rumors say that few years ago, a chinese team found a manuscript in China near the Tibetean frontier.
This writing was in Sanskrit and tell how construct a flying object or a Vimana (Vimanam in Tamil), the chinese team sent the manuscript (maybe and surely a copy) to the Benares Hindu University to decrypt it..
The major problem must be the understanding of such documents which are crypted in a special coded language , which use symbolism.. In fact you must not read and translate it blindly. You will not understand the hided meaning.



Eelavar! this is the problem with accepting any of these myths. Anything related to sanskrit is deemed sacred, cryptic and full of symbols, mainly because the language is a dead one and not many can claim expertise at it. But does the fact that, they are unknown and mysterious, justify us looking for something beyond wat they mean? or even if we look, and we dont find anything, is it right for us to blindly accept wat others say? Everything in sanskrit right from vedas to manuscripts benefits from this "possibility of ingnorance". They say vedas is great, if we ask why, they say u wont understand!!! WTF!!!

[Eelavar]

thamizhvaanan the Vedas is great by its content !!

[kannannn]

Eelavar, we have gone through this before. I again ask - what is it in the vedas that make them great? Unfortunately, no one has come forward to quote anything convincingly. Please visit the thread on Charu Nivedita's comments on vedas.

[bis_mala]

Briefly:

1. PaaNini lived after Tolkaappiyan. The reason is that Tolkaappiyam was the applicable grammar formulated for the 2nd Sangam, which ended with the submergence of the land mass south of TN. Much of Tolkaappiyam was no longer in use by the time of the 3rd Sangam. PaaNini has not been mentioned anywhere in Tolkaappiyam.

2. In ThiruviLayaadal PuraaNam, Paranchothi Munivar says that Sivaperumaan gave PaaNini the grammar for "vadamozi". Sivaperuman is a Southern Deity. There is no mention of Sivan in Rig Veda. Western and Indian historians said that Sivan was/is a deity of the South. Therefore PaaNini was a Tamil.

3 The word PaaNini is in the feminine gender form. paaNan > paaNini. This means a poetess or songstress. This strengthens para 2 above. A poet by the name of Kaakkai Paadini wrote Tamil Grammatical Treatise known as "kaakkaipaadinium". This treatise is no longer available but some of its verses have been cited by commentators to strengthen their explanations here and there. Kaakkaai Paadini lived some time after Tolkappiyan. Since PaaNini has been referred to as a grammarian and a "poet" as well (in northern literature), it is a fair proposal that Paadini presented herself as PaaNini in the northern sector. Like some of us having different user names when we write to a Malay or Chinese forum.
One or more of our Sangam Poets had taught at the Nalanda University and this has been confirmed by historians. So Tamils had established relationships with the North. This is undeniable. See also FSG's posts in this forum regarding expeditions by Tamil kings northwards.

4. There are references to nuns in PaNini's work. There were no nuns in the Vedic system, which relegated women to a subordinate role. So it is fair to conclude that PaNini lived some time before or after Buddha, but most probably after Buddha. PaNini's grammar was for a northern language, which belonged to same family as Sanskrit. Experts have said Rig did not follow PaNini. Sanskrit is not mentioned in PaNini.

5. PaNini did not leave behind any biographic details concerning herself. Much of what scholars say is just guesswork. The only other language that had a comprehensive grammar for itself was Tamil. Hence Tamil grammarian undertook to write grammar rules for a northern language related to Sanskrit ( but pre-existing it). . The "story of Sivaperuman inspiring" is an oblique reference to the fact that the poet was a Tamilian. (a Sivan worshipper). Paadini to PaaNini was an easy crossover. The root for Paadu and PaaN is paa - means verse.

7. PaaNini does not seem to have copied from Greek or Latin grammar. Expressing grammar in verses was the speciality of Tamil grammarians.

[devapriya]

Dear Friends,

As for as Megasthanis references Panini cannot be dated later than 5th Cen BCE. Moreover Panini refers to earlier Grammer books several times.
Greek and Latin are daughters of Sanskrit.

Tholkappiyam dating is only 50-100CE, and it clearly follows Sanskrit Wrting order and follows Brahmi-Pulli dated to 100-300CE, syatem.

We do not have single proof for any Sangam to have happened. They are just Legendary.

I request this thread to look more on Ancient Science.

On Tholkappiyar dating Bmala can come in other Thread.

[bis_mala]

The Greek Invasion of India brought in many western words into Indian speeches and these words found their way into the natural languages in that area which is now western India, Sanskrit being the ultimate beneficiary of all such borrowings.
Seleucus , son of Antiochus, one of Philip's generals, and of Laodice. During the Seleucid Empire he ruled the neighbouring provinces of Persia, Susiana and Media and by 311-302 BC, Seleucus ruled eastern part of Alexander's empire as far as the Jaxartes and Indus Rivers. He afterwards established Seleucia on the Tigris. These events also benefitted Sanskrit eventually. 1/3 Sanskrit remains with Indo-European (borrowed) lexical base. If there was no previous Aryan Migration at all, the only other way to explain the incidence of IE words in Sans is to say that Sans helped itself and acquired those foreign words. Mother Sans Theory (MST) is now
discarded and accordingly no forefathers of Indians came from Iran!! That is the present claim. If anyone still likes the MST. then once again you will be courting the Aryan Migration Theory. It is your choice.

Tolkappiyam belongs to the 2nd Sangam.

[Eelavar]

These are anciant Indian scientific heritage...
A VERY enlighting video..

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8946074383583015610&q=genre%3Adocumentary+duration%3Along+India

Thanks google..

[dsath]

That was a good one. I have also seen the other episodes in the series including Chinese, Roman and Greek. I must admit that the Chinese were the most impressive of the lot.

[kannannn]

Thanks Eelavar for the link. There was a condensed 10 min. program last month on BBC on the same subject, which I as usual remembered after the program was over. A point I would like to add on plastic sugery - the ancient Indians were also experts at reconstructing lips that were cut as punishment for stealing or not paying back debts. The English version of the Russian book, "Tales from the ancient world" makes for interesting reading on this subject. It was published by Mir Publishers, but I am not sure if it is still available.

[dsath]

Kannannn, This episode was part of a series called 'What the Ancients did for us' which was telecast sometime back in BBC 2. It was a 1 hr program and some 'ancients' had 2 parts dedicated to them. One of those UKTV documentary channels usually retelecast such programs. May be you can catch it on one of those channels.
It was really interesting to watch the contrast between ancient cultures.
Most of the Indian inventions and discoveries revolved around spirituality. In contrast most of the Roman inventions were mainly for their army (no wonder they built an empire) and the Egyptians were based on after-life and luxury of the pharaohs.

The fact that only the India civilization has been able to 'live' so long, may be to do with our attachment towards spirituality.

[kannannn]

dsath, many thanks for the info. I'll watch out for the retelecast.

[Eelavar]

It's a pleasure Kannann. :D

[johntony]

:D