Tamil roots of sanskrit words

[F.S.Gandhi vandayar]

Now all historians of world talk about tamil and world history.

Indians talk about sanskrit. No longer they can talk about that.

But indian tamil pandits talk about sanskrit derived words of tamil.
They want to purify tamil,thinking that sanskrit is alien from tamil.

Sanskrit is evolved from tamil. Sanskrit words roots are in tamil.

Tamil pandits classify some words having sound like sanskrit as sanskrit words. For example,

ISHtam,KaSHtam,KuSHtam,NaSHtam,PuSHpam, PaSHpam.

These words are not in literary sanskrit is apparent truth. Ask any sanskrity pandit.

Ishtam-Ittam-idu+am- idu means oneway drop,oneway thinking,persons own view.

Kashtam-kattam-kadu+am, kadu means show restriction,disapproval,angry- like in a square -restricted border,an unrelieved pain

Nashtam- Nattam-natu- means once you pierce it,it should not be taken out - once you do it you can not get return.

Kushtam-kuttam-kudu-kuttai- short - when body elements are short kushtam happens.

Pushpam-putpam-pudu-pidu- take out (Sanskrit word is there)

Paspam-patpam-padu- near floor- shorten - empty

Sometimes tamil pandits boastfully tell that all tamil words changed purposefully as sanskrit words.

Kumbakonam- kudamooku
Kabisthalam-Kurangaduthurai
Mayuram-Mayiladuthurai
Vedharnyam-Maraikadu
Mirugam-Vilangu

Right hand words are tamil as according to tamilpandits.

Kumbakonam-Kumbam+konam- Kumi+am+konam-kuvi+kone-kuvi+ucchi

Kabistalam- kavi+talam-Kavvi+talam- Kavvi a name of monkey based on its mouth. Note patti for Nai(dog), arima for singam(lion)

Mayuram- mayur+am, mai+Oori+am- colour pickled(colour mixed) an another name for mayil

Vedharnyam-vedham+aranyam-veithal+am+aranyam- 'Koorai veithal-kuraiyal maraithal, araniyam-aran- border or kadu was border in olden days.

mirugam- miru+kam- miru-miratchi-payam+angry feeling.

Some tamil words slightly turned and sound like sanskrit. They are not sanskrit words. But tamil pandits say these are sanskrit words.

Pati-pti-Prathi

Payanam-pyanam-prayanam

Agathuman-Aathuman- Athma

Vinnavam-vainavam-vaishnavam

Karkannan-karukannan-kruknan-krushnan

Paraman-piraman-Prahmman

Paramanar- piramanar-Brahminar

I am not criticising tamil pandits. But they have to understand the nature and rationality in the dialects and do best their search in language.

(will be continued)

f.s.gandhi

[F.S.Gandhi vandayar]

Some words of tamil day today use are found in sanskrit. When these words are seen, tamil pandits get inferiority complex and instead of finding out that root they term this as sanskrit derived words.

Thulaparam-thulai+param= weigh balance+weight

Darshan- theriyanam-therisanam -darshan

kaariyam- karumam-karmam-kariyam-kaariyam

pasu- pas in sanskrit means rope. All think cow is controlled through pas so pasu. But pas is from pai-pasai-pasu a tamil root.Pai is the root for pachai and pal(milk)

Shakshi- satchi(santru)- satshat is very often used in stories written by sanskrit influenced writers

Visumbu- visuvam

palam- valam

dayai- thalarvu-thayavu

prachanai-problem- prazhchanai

Sigichai- Sikizhchai- Tamils pandits use 'panduvam' for sigichai thinking that sigichai is sanskrit word.

vishayam- vidayam

osti- uyarthi-osaththi-osti

(will be continued)

f.s.gandhi

[F.S.Gandhi vandayar]

(continuation)

Some roots of sanskrit words.

Juram(fever)- suram=sur+am-suru+am. 'surunguthal due to heat'

suraththal,suranduthal,suriyan are from this root.

Pashana- pasanam- paichanam- pai is the root.

nirupanam- niruvuthal, niru/uru is the root.

patcham-pakkam

elakkam,elakkiam- elatcham,elatchiam

giri-kiri-kuri means malai. kurichi,kuravar has same root.

Suththam- suthai+am - Suthai a name for 'sunnambu'(white/clean).
Asuththam might have evolved in sanskrit since equivalent opposite word forming might be difficult since sanskrit is artificial language.

For example, abaram-baram-param-varam(since 'v' is not in sanskrit) -varai+am, varai(border),Compare varayarai & var(belt).

Therefore abaram(-ve) means borderless-excellent in meaning.

Not only words.Sanskrit Grammar also is from tamil. We can conclude sanskrit is the northern replica of tamil. Sanskrit vedic religion is tamil adapted religion.

Inthran is eulogized in vedhas.

Inthran/varunan= inththu=im+th+u- Im and U are suttu words specified the water/cold water of river. varunan=vari(alai) again a name for water flowing/sea.

The same inththran was god of masses when tamils turned agriculturists. The same inththran was turned sivan later.

The god of water based/agriculturists was inththran. That is why
some of the castes of tamilnadu called themselves inthrakula katthiriyar(Shatriyar) and inththrakula vellalar.

Karikalan celebrated 'inththra vizha' in kallanai. Silapathikaram talks about inthra vizha.

Sanskrit adapted this caste system/ideology.

Sindhu the river name means the same cold water flowing.

Kangai,the river name is formed with the root 'kankai' which means light heat.

If the above concept is followed a significant breakthrough in tamil-sanskrit combination will be invented and the myth that sanskrit is all in india would be broken into pieces.

f.s.gandhi

[F.S.Gandhi vandayar]

Dear friends, :)

Sanskrit is called ‘DEVA BASHA’ in India.

It is actually true. Sanskrit slogans are used / insisted in pujas.

Just like Arabic & Hebrew, Sanskrit also adopted God’s name for every word used while worshipping.

You can observe this in many of Sanskrit words forming.

‘Piram’ is the root for most of the words of slokas in Sanskrit irrespective of the meaning of the word.

Just like ‘Al’ is added in Arabic words and ‘Allae’ in Hebrew words the word ‘Piram’ is added to Sanskrit words.

Tamil differs from this. But ‘Piram’ is from tamil ‘param’- which specifies ‘PARAMPORUL’ or God.

This itself shows from tamil –Prakirutham-samaskirutham was formulated for the sake of God’s prayers. The great cholas who were tamils accepted Sanskrit because of this fact.

Let us examine some of the words.

Pirakadanam- ‘Vilamparam’ – Param + kadanam – Kadanam – ‘Kadantha thanmai’ – means ‘Overtaking god’s popularity’.

Pirakasam- Param + Kasam – Kasam – ‘Lightening like Pon Kasu’- means lightening

Prakiruthi- Param + karu + e - means ‘moolam’

Pirasankam- Param +Sam+ Am—Addressing about god in front of masses

Pirasandam – Param + chandai (Chandam) – means ‘Kodumai or Kadumai’

Pirasavam- Param + Chavam – Chavam means ‘marupaduthal’ – Change – just like Pinam from ‘Pinangu’ base. Giving child birth is change in situation.

Pirasannam- Param + Channam- Channam means ‘Nunniya’ – ‘Alagiya’. ‘Jannal’ a word for window is not portugese origin as tamil pandits say. It is tamil word only.
Pirasannam means ‘shown clearly’

Pirasatham – Param + satham. Satham is from ‘sathu’ root which means ‘soft’. Tamils tell ‘Choru’ is tamil and 'satham' is sanskrit’- There is no 'satham' in Sanskrit. God’s satham is ‘Pirachatham’.

Pirasapathi- Param + Arasu + athi + pathi - This is the name for God ‘Piraman’

Readers are welcome to add more in this way. (will be continued later)

f.s.gandhi

[F.S.Gandhi vandayar]

Dear friends, :)

(Continuation of Param oriented sanskrit words)

Pracharam – Param + charam - Charam has root as ‘Charu’ – means ‘messages about god’ equivalent to ‘Chorpozhivu’

Prachiththam - Param + Chiththam - ‘Kadavulin velippadu’ - ‘arivippu’

Prachinam – Param + Chinam – ‘ a question asked against god’ – vinaa / Kaelvi

Prasuram – Param + saram – Praising of god – later to mean ‘pathippithal’

Prajai – Param + kudisai – parakusai – pirausai – Prajai – citizen / kudimakan.

Piranayam – Param + Nayam - Anbu – kind

Piranavam- Param + Avam – about god – kadavulaip patri – to specify ‘Oom’

Pirathatchinam – Param + Thattu + enai - Thattukku enaiyaka – Thatchinai given to god / Prokithar. Check ‘Thatchina Poomi’ - flat like structure. Check ‘Anka prithatchinam’

Pirathamam – Param + Amam – Amam here is equivalent to ‘Amar’ – means ‘ Muthanmai.

[jaiganes]

FSGV!
whatever you are saying here are quite revolutionary to my mind. I am amazed by these. Can you explain the etimology nehind this. Also can you provide historical evidences that support this hitherto unexplored line of thinking?
Thanks and congrats.

[F.S.Gandhi vandayar]

Dear Mr. Jaiganes, :)

In world history a significant breakthrough has been done by Mr.Maxmuller who identified ‘Indo – Europiean Group of languages’ in 19th century.

His strong belief is man movement in history can be identified through language analysis.

He has done, found out certain truth but ended with wrong conclusion. The thing is he has not analysed tamil / other Dravidian group / North Indian tribal languages.

Importantly north Indian tribal languages are nothing but tamil.

Whenever Indian history studies made Sanskrit is made forefront as if it exposes all Indian hereditary which is a wrong theory. It is 1800 years old unspoken language created only for Hothas / knowledge preservation purposes.

In this case we have to analyse which culture / language influenced this Sanskrit. That will bring you great light to the history.

Thevanayap pavanar started his career as English teacher went on reading English formation and at last he found tamil was the origin for all the languages in the world. He started the roots formation guided by Maxmuller / Galduwell.

My approach is based on that. Many books influenced this. I had an opportunity in my school days to study about various history books. If you want the listing it won’t complete the purpose.

All other Indian languages are phonetically transformed structure / dialects of tamil is real truth.

Knan paranchu / parayu (Malayalam) Na cheppinadu (telugu) which are Shrinkage of Naan parainthathu / Naan cheppiyathu.

Doorvaja Banthgae (Hindi) ‘Theruvasal poththunga’ (tamil)- ‘Kathava Moodunga’ (another dialect)

Doorvaja Kolagae (Hindi) ‘Theruvasal Thoranga’ (tamil) ‘ Kathava Thiranga’ (another dialect)

Yahang Aav (Hindi) ‘Engae Vaa’ (tamil)

Kithap patna(Hindi) 'Puththakam padi'

My purpose is to intiate this vision to masses. People will find out lot of things / truths behind it (including the language pandits.)

f.s.gandhi

[F.S.Gandhi vandayar]

Dear friends, :)

'Param' root -Sanskrit words (continuation)

Param is pronounced as ‘P’ram / Piram in Sanskrit.

Prathapam – Param + Thapam – Thapam has root in ‘Thavu’ – Thaavam – Thapam & Thavaram are old words When man lived in forests and Thaavam means forest fire.

Prathapam means uncontrollable courage like fire.

Prathanam- Param +Thanam – Thanam specifies place. Than – Thaan – is the root. Thaniyam is another word from this root. Prathanam means ‘Muthal edam’

Prathani – Param + Thani – First person – ‘Muthanmaiyanavar’

Prathisi – Param + Thisai – Gods’ place / direction – means ‘West’.

Prathesam- Param + Theyam – Theyam – Thesam.- Gods’ place – People’s place was called in that way.

Prapantham- Param + Pantham – Pantham means ‘varisai’ / Ozungu / relation – Note panthi specifies the same meaning. Prapantham means ‘Nool varisai’

Praphaharan- Param + Akaran – Akaran means ‘Thodakka manavan’ like tamil first alphabet ‘A’

Prapalam – ‘ Valiyulla’ / pukazulla- Param +palam- palam is from ‘valam’ to specify ‘valimai’

Prabu – Param- Paramu- Pramu- Prabu

Prapavam- Famous / Pukazh - Param + Avam – Avam is from ‘avai’

Prapuththan – yount intelligent man – Param + paththan - Paththan is from ‘paththai’ means ‘containing lot of ‘. Paththan – who interconnect / create arts. Paththathi – ‘neri nool’

Pramachariyam – Param +Chaariyam – ‘Kadavulaich chaarntha’ - Belonging to god – unmarried / not belonging to this world life.

(will be continued later )

[solomon]

India has produced the two Worlds Topmost languages, and both are from same origin, but expressing it differently.

From same base, both can claim to be the origin, but both are same and equally different.

You say in Abroad, people do not accept Sanskrit's Antiquity, I DONot know which of the Universities you are talking about, and are they Scholars of Repute and Presented in ACADamics.

Few Thinkers spread this stories in India and Abroad, but nothing is accepted by any Universities, and are worth getting few claps in meetings.

No need to be any bad feelings on either Languages, and both are from India and both make us proud, and expressing opinions without proofs only would put Tamils at a disadvantage.
MosesMohammedSolomon

[F.S.Gandhi vandayar]

Dear Thiru Solomon, :)

Tamil started with suttu oligal / vowels.That is a,e,u . ‘a,e,i,o,u’ are vowels as you know by English. These will have a, aa, e, ee, u, uu, o, oo,i apart from ae, aae, av, ah sounds which were present only in world ancient languages. In this ‘av’ and ‘ah’ sounds were predominantly in ancient languages.

All suttu oligal have meaning only in tamil not in any other language of world.

These suttu oligal formed extension in words.

Expanded words shrinked and tilted in its form formulating new dialects / new languages.

These shrinked words don’t have vowels at the beginning. But have consonants of later origin.

Tamil only can claim the root words since most of the Sanskrit words never start with vowels.

For example : Eravu – Raththiri

Eravu has ‘Iru’ root . This root formed the words ‘erumpu, irul, Irukku, Iruppu etc.

Tamil consonant starting words also have root in vowel starting words.

‘Sanku’ – sam+ku - ‘Sam’ is from ‘Am’ which formulated the word ‘ambalam’ where Am and sam has same meaning ‘club’.

You talked about common origin. If there is a common origin where is the common origin ? No symptoms of common origin prevalent in India.

You must understand Tamil history is related to world history. Hence talking tamil history shall not mean talking against any language / race.

f.s.gandhi

[F.S.Gandhi vandayar]

Dear friends, :)


‘Okku’ is a old tamil word means ‘Thani’. Since a replica of something becoming the same of a thing this ‘okku’ turned in meaning as ‘Pontra, ontrana’.

The same okku is used in telugu as ‘Okkati’.

‘Kokku OKKA kompum paruvaththu’- kural use this word.

This okka turned as ok – ak – aak (ontru) in Sanskrit.

Since Sanskrit is ‘DEVA BASHA’ this ‘aak’ is taken in many words of Sanskrit as root.

‘God is one’ is the principle in any religion. Other gods are specified as ‘Thoothuvar’ in Christin / muslim religion and ‘Avathaar’ in Hindu / Inthu religion.

Hence this ‘AAK’ specifies god’s nature and is root of many words like ‘param’ in Sanskrit.

Observe the following words.

Aaka kundalan – Okka + kundavan = Palaraman was called in this name.

Aaka Chakrathipathi – Okka + Chakkaram + Athi + pathi = Arasan

Aaka thandi – Okka + Thandam = Sanniyasi / godman

Aaka Thanthan – Okka + Thantham (elephant) – Vinayakar / pillaiyar / Lor Ganesh

Aaka pokam – Okka + Pokuthal / spend – ‘Thani yaka anupavi’ – Enjoy singularly.

Readers are welcome to contribute.

f.s.gandhi

[F.S.Gandhi vandayar]

Dear Friends, :)

'Aek'(okku) oriented sanskrit words (continuation)

Aeka vachanam - Orumai (without respect) - cursing god

Aeka vadam - Oru kayiru - one rope used to pull God's charriot.

Aeka vanai – Aek + Aanai = God’s command is same for all people

Aekan – Kadavul

Aekanki – Aek + Ankam = A man who adapted God. ‘Thuravi’

Aekaatchi – Aek + Kaatchi – Otraik kannan (a man of one eye – here ‘Sukiran’ God.

Aekaandam – Aek + Andam (ulakam) = God’s place

Aekaantham – Aek + kaantham = Kaantham is from Kantham – Pillar – here like pillar a place where god / person lives discretely.

Aekopiththal – Aek + Oppuviththal = Ontru cheruthal

[solomon]

* deleted *

[Idiappam]

Solomon, please don't post the same text all over the place. It make discussion difficult. Once is enough.

Pls continue here: http://forumhub.mayyam.com/hub/viewtopic.php?p=147020#147020

[F.S.Gandhi vandayar]

Dear solomon,

We tell you that there is no common origin for tamil and sanskrit and sanskrit is an offshoot of tamil.

The same Maxmuller words about language history has been revealed to you in the topic 'Tamil is elder to sanskrit. Your words seems to be opposing his views.

Our view is what Maxmuller followed through languages' words is correct and his interpretation was wrong since he neglected to get into or didnot have enough days in his life get into the dravidian group or tamil. The last mindset of Maxmuller is reveled by Galduwell which I noted you in 'Tamil is elder to sanskrit' thread.

Why people will hate if sanskrit literature really good for Indian people ?

You specify common enemies are Europeans and they spread false message.You and your views of your forefathers for the past 150 years believed Aryan theory.

You always confuse and mix the so called Brahmins who are identified as caste now with Aryans which is not true and this has been revealed in 'tamil..' thread.

You seems to be based on RSS ideology which neither have evidances nor have proof but it is a belief.

Historieans must have outlook and vision based on evidances and not on beliefs and we have to scroll through all the persons having some positive elements of proof.

Kindly do not lambast the shortcomings of yesteryear scholars. Derive always some positive elements if presented by scholars.

f.s.gandhi

[solomon]

From MosesMohammedSplomon:

FSG- I want you to look at the historical facts and not on wishful thinkings. Aryan Invasion was brought in By Maxmuller, Caldwell etc., and that is because they want to split Indians.

I have facts and go by International consenses of Dating of Literature and where as you Spread false assumptions.

Sanskrit Literature has its good as much as Tamil, and We donot have One Pre Sanskrit Tamil work.

Breaking of words are not Linguistc Science to fullness, An example- Computer is a Pukka TaMIL word- what a computer does- It Processes the Date given. i.e.,
Canthial of Puhithiya Tharavukal- which becaome Cani-Puhu-Tharvu as Computer'; Kanini or Kanipori is not that suitable.

We know this is not a right interpretation, but anybody can publish and another put it in Net and this will only put Indians as People-meaninglessly split and claim ubsurd roots and waste time.

Archeology is the best to guide and based on Stone Inscriptions the Tholkappiyam can be never dated earlier than 200-150 BCE, and first Tamil inscriptions are done after Samane North Indians wrote it in their scripts- the Tamil words, Tamil did not have previous scripts, atleast in pre-500 years prior to 500 BCE, Indus Seals, if you cut the Missionaries, 50% read it as Sanskrit and 50% as Proto-Tamil, but with morethan 4000 types of Pictures, they are more Picotorial than Scriptal.

Look at facts . India and Indian Culture extended from Celon to Iran, with both Tamil and Sanskrit , with Sanskrit on the insistence of Clergy becoming a Grammatical language, giving way to Pali and Prakrits. We have Pali Books telling Vedic/Ramayan/Mahabaat stories and these books have gone to neibouring countries in 250BCE, Asokan periods, now you bluff, no Vedas till 100 BCE, would be childish.
RSS is not a bad word thought I have no connection with it or accept its ideologies, its much better than Dravidians Parties of Tamilnadu, who now follow Varnasramadharma of putting Sons and Grandsons in all Posts.
Go by facts without Prejudices and accept truths.
MosesMohammadSolomon

[F.S.Gandhi vandayar]

Dear solomon,

You wanted references and I gave them. All the owners of books are not wishful thinkers they provide lot of archeological and literary proofs to show that. Due to its length I could not elaborate it.

Words are main source of history telling and all the historians follow this.

You made funny of words separation. It has some concept supported by archelogical findings. Grammatical works shows clear picture of language formation and their history.

Comtemporary meaning and based on suttu olikal, Oru porul kilavikal supported by inscriptions are followed in language reserch.

You accept in one way and reject in another way seems to be contradictory in your views.

Your dating of panini doesn't have any proof. The first inscription of sanskrit language is during 8 the century A.D that too during pallava period and nowhere in India Sanskrit inscriptions found is the reality.

You talked about sanskrit influence present now in India and other countries. Sanskrit has latest origin and spread during radical change in vaishnava. Since it is latest its presence there. You know before 50 years tamil wrote in manipiravalam. Almost tamil extinct. But revived after sankam findings. It doesnot mean sanskrit is earlier is our point. Sanskrit literature contains tamil thoughts and is the offshoot of tamil is our arguement.

During Nayakkar period the latest kings before Bristish Telugu was used.Do you mean telugu is earlier ? British ruled India and the influence of English is there in India. Do you mean English is earlier?

Sindhu valley script never contains sanskrit words is the truth. After all sanskrit words words are shrinked form of tamil. A fully refained tamil nothing shrinked form of words are observed in sindhu valley and all world historians accept that no vedhic influence in sindhu valley. You are redirecting the views.

And in language also Paly-pragrid-sanskrit is the evolution. You redirecting this as Maxmuller way that sanskrit-pragrid-Paly which proved wrong by historians.

In someway you manage to get a place for sanskrit with false findings. It wont stand longterm base.

f.s.gandhi

[Idiappam]

A lot of assumptions you have posted there! Never mind! But just to punture a gapping hole in your thought! Refering to what you said:


Sanskrit Literature has its good as much as Tamil, and We donot have One Pre Sanskrit Tamil work.

Ashtadyayi fame, Panini of 400BCE did not name Sanskrit (or samksrut, samskrit - or whatever that may be its name) as a language he is talking about.

For what language did Panini write grammer for, then? Some Prakirts? When was the "Samskrit" came into being as a name for a language??

All this point just to one thing. Sanskrit was non-existence prior to the 2nd Centure CE - when Valmiki Ramayana was written!

The rest of your lament is noted!

[solomon]

I request you to kindly read my poing in Tamil Elder forum in reply to your Lies.

Carbon 14 dating started only in 20th Cen middle and you say Saraswathi Mahal has 19th Cen test proofs- I leave you with these statements.

Now when you donot have facts, then you start meaningless talks calling RSS views,
-When Sunami attacked Tamilnadu, the first to come resque was RSS and as per Site Informations - One Third of the Total affected Dead Bodies were disposed by RSS Sevaks, the pity is when most of the affected is either Tourists at Spas or Kuppam people, but the People who visited as Tourists and Devotions to Velankanni Temple- 2000 were Dead, where as the SANTHOME Archbishop made another statement of SUNAMI- AS Thomas tomb remained in Mylapur, the place was not affected. And all our Tamil Dravidan TVs took Pain not to show RSS Sevaks, whereas watching NDTV or Aajtak etc., proved all this.

When M.Deivanayagam took the dubious researches of KA.SU.Pillai, MaraimalaiAdigal and others and submiited and received a PHD, saying Entire Tamil Literature- Tirukural, Paripadal, KAlithogai. Thirumurugatrupadai ,Saiva sithanthangal etc., are influenced rather Valluvar copied Bible and all were developed later under Bible infleunce by Thomas' alleged visit. His books had blessings of all major churches, rather Mylapur Archbishop funded them, and I quote Deivanayagam in his first book- Tiruvalluvar Christhuvara?, which had an Aninthurai by Mu.Karunanithi and released by Anbalagan if I remember correct in 1969..
"Valluvar KAPPIYADITHAR ENAK kOOR ENTHATH tAMILANUM MUNVARA MATTAN, ANAL vIRUPPU Veruppu indri Aybavargal thangal Aayvin mudivil Varum karuthugalai veliyida pinvanginal avargal unmai aiyvalargal allar- Pa 131. "
" Christhuvamagihiya Malaiil irunthu Edukkappatta Aramagia Karungal Tamilagiya Gangayil .... Page- 173'
And his gang has received 5 or 6 phd, mphil etc., where as now we know the above statements are Lies to the core. Devaneyan's quotations have been used his final work, Phd Thesis to attack the Tamil's Aborgins.
This research has been going on from Late 50s, and Devaneyan did not Utter a single word to my Knowledge against this Project.
Friends, it is an RSS GROUP maintain a WEBSITE- www.hamsa.org and gives the total news on the frauds of the Thomas visit humbugs., and FSG now you quote this Gentleman to couch your misleading claims.
Almost entire work of Scholars of 20th Cen, now needs to be rejected as Sangam Period is now dated to end around 30-20BCE, and Kalapirar rule in 1st and 2ndCen, and Pallavas coming in around 190CE.
Quoting Obsolete books is of no use.

You were always claiming having dating done for Tamil & Sanskrit literatures and please give those here or to all the Encyclopedias- as Britanica, americana, CHambers, Cromptons etc.,

Now Tell me the names of Universities that follow, which you claim follow and research and YOUr misleading claims.

Please explains your views with proofs instead of trying to meaninglessly Punctur my arguments, Let facts come in open and not false claims.
MosesMohammedSolomon

[F.S.Gandhi vandayar]

Dear Solomon, :)

I stand by my views. Saraswathi Mahal libruary is still there in Thanjavur.

The question is here about sanskrit antiquity. You seems to be talking other issues which is not necessary now.

You kindly talk your views under the heading 'Tamil is elder to sanskrit' topic.

Prove that sanskrit is elder. You can't do it. You don't have proof.

Kindly note adichanallur findings recently in 'THE HINDU' paper. The earlier script of tamil dated through carbon dating back to 500 B.C.

Dont divert the topic.

f.s.gandhi

[Idiappam]

When M.Deivanayagam took the ...... (snipped)
...... (snipped)

Devaneyan's quotations have been used his final work, Phd Thesis to attack the Tamil's Aborgins. .... (snipped)

Solomon, you don't confuse the two persons, M. Deivanayagam and G. Devaneya Pavanar.

Pavanar did not write any book like 'Thiruvalluvar Christavara?".

But if Christians like M. Deivanayagam, wish to claim that Thiruvalluvar was as Christian - and belongs to the Christians, please let them have him. There are claims that Valluvar was a Jain, Buddhist, Muslim, Vedic Brahmin etc etc. Good!

It just shows that the man Valluvar is being admired by everyone, and once they read the little book of his, The Kural, they fall madly in love with him.

Ha! Valluvar must be one 'helluva' handsome guy.!

[F.S.Gandhi vandayar]

This is the thread that I opened to reveal tamil roots of sanskrit words.

So we shall discuss the issue now going on in 'Tamil is elder to sanskrit' thread.

I expect co-operation from Mr. Solomon.

I request Mr.Idiappam also to put your thought on 'Tamil is elder to sanskrit' thread to avoid parallel discussion.

We shall discuss only word roots in this session.

Thanking you,

f.s.gandhi

[Nedunchezhiyan]

Thiru F.S. Gandhi Vandayar

What does Charam in ThirukkOnech'charam' mean? Does it mean kOyil?

Would you be more clear about ur defintion for the word 'Sinthu?'

You have pointed out the word 'am.' Is 'am' some sort of prefix or suffix? as in am+A? am+pu, 'am'irtham, ampalam, amapal, ampaaram, ampaal, ampAL, ampi, ammam.
A Thamizh dictionary say am = azhagu, neer, megham, oru saariyai. What is a 'saariyai?' What is the importance of this word am?

You said most of the sanskirit used terms in the Thamizh temples come from Thamizh roots.
Kumbabishekam is called as kudamuzhukku. Does kumabishekam come from a Thamizh root word? (kumba abishekam?). Where does the word Abishekam come from? If its not Thamizh, what is the equivalent Thamizh form of that word?

nanRi
paNhivu

[F.S.Gandhi vandayar]

After a long time I am glad to watch your postings. Welcome back Thiru Nedunchezhian. :!:

Aaram-saaram-saram is the evolution word saram. Saram means ‘Maalai’. Thiri + kone + Maalai = Thirikonemaalai turned thrikonemalai. Here Thiri = moontru / three.

The place in triangular point is Thirikonemalai. Thiri is tamil word and it is from Thiripu. I have written about that in ‘Amateur Etymology’ column. Maalai also means ‘Aran’ Which is the root of Araniyam.(means anything protects)

I have talked about ‘Inthu’ in ‘tamil is elder to Sanskrit column’.Kindly go through that.One of the meaning of Inthu is ‘Mathi’- arivu. Inthu-sinthu-sinthai came in this way.

Compare ‘Sinthanaith thuli’ . Inthu means also ‘cool water’. When cool water from Himalayan icecap came (sinthi varuthal) naturally the river was called sinthu.

‘Am’ is called root. Do not put it in your grammar mind. Roots are compared in all the languages for their comtemporary meaning. The words of having same root will have common meaning.

At the same time ‘Am’ in ‘Amarvu’, Amaithi & ambalam will have different meaning and ‘Am’ in Amma,Amutham & ampal because historic perspective also is to be taken care of in defining the root words.

Root words in colloquial language is natural and they formulate their own pattern. Words are caught up with one root of common meaning is the reality.

‘Am’ was ‘suttu oli’ when man created first his own word to specify water. It turned ‘amadu’ to specify Am+adu , a place near water / sea. You can club lot of words in this ‘Am’ root. ‘Sariyai’ means a word which is oriented to something (Charpu) and it can be prefix as in ‘Amadu’ and suffix in Kutram (Kutru + am).

I plan to write about the roots ‘ava,apa,avam,apam’ in this column as I earlier wrote about certain Sanskrit words formation in this column after sometime.

Now we look into the word 'Abisehkam" Kumbam is synonym of Kudam and both are tamil words. Abi + Dekam. ‘Avi’ in tamil means things. In ancient days it meant ‘choru’. Later after rituals came into being ‘Avi’ specified ‘Velvipporul’ which are eatables especially. Avi turned abi. Dekam has root in ‘Okku-okam-Ekkam-Eekam’ to specify single (thanitha) / Muzhumaiyana / body especially the body of God.

When body of god is fully put into ritual bath with things of human intake it is called ‘Abidekam’ / Abishekam.

Explore more Thiru. Nedunchezhian. :!: No restriction of Grammar- After all grammars are formulated by us. Historical and natural evolution of words should be observed.

f.s.gandhi

[Nedunchezhiyan]

nanRi Thiru F.S.Gandhi Vandayar

I would like to know if using words like Abidekam and Kumbabidekam seem approrpiate and equivalent to the words Kudamuzhukku and anything alternative to Abidekam. It is perhaps the sanskiritizng of the Thamizh words that have made Thamizh people to think Thamizh words are Sanskirit. Even now most of the people, even in the media such as TVs, Radios and Newspapers say 'pooja' instead of 'poosai.'

There has been some problem with the word 'kONham.' Apparently a Thamizh Teacher I know, refuses that its Thamizh and point reference to this Dictionary released by Saiva Siththanthak Kazhagam and he say its not Thamizh and the word 'kONham' is Sanskirit. Can you provide more insight into the root of the word 'kONham?'

Are there any synonyms for the word 'kONham' which mean angle.

kONham is also used in the saying like 'muthat kONham, muttrum kONham' in that saying does kONham stand for curve line? or angular shape?

We are having a discussion about the Thamizh Dragon yALi (or yAzhi?) under the 'Is Tamil derived from Sanskirit?' topic. Please participate.

nanRi, PaNhivu

[F.S.Gandhi vandayar]

Dear Thiru Nedunchezhian,

Forget about Tamil pandits. In my postings I have revealed their restrictive thinking. They have closed mind and unneccessarily they will expect exact view which are not at all required to derive something.

There won't be any difference with valaivu / Konam purely in literary sense. For mathematical purposes you can differentiate exactly the words.

'Ko' is 'suttu oli' to specify 'Uchchi' top. King was called as Ko. Kone also evolved from this root to specify King. 'Konam' evolved to specify the sharp edge or top point when two lines cross in certain angle. When two straight line turn (valaivu) someway to cross, the word 'Konal' is used. Deviating may be in line deviating in circular path or line itself bend circularly.

Always tamil pandits compare their language with sanskrit which is wrong. For example take miruthangam. Mathangam was used in tamil. Tamil pandits will say Mathangam turned miruthangam with Miru added just like methu turned miruthu. I say melithu - merithu- miruthu is the correct evolution.

'Koni' also specify this 'valaivu' and flexibility.

Kudamuzhukku is synonym to Kumpabhishekam.

Sanskrit was evolved from paly and prakrid which were offshoots of tamil before 4000 years back. So all sankrit words only evolved from tamil roots. Later phonetically changed / shriked tamil words seems to be sanskrit words.

f.s.gandhi

[Nedunchezhiyan]

Beside all of these religious influences and the belief in supreme being, the current words in use in Thamizh which specify supreme being, such as Iraivan, KadavuL, theivam, Bagavan, are they of Thamizh origin? I have recently read an article in which a Thamizh scholar argued that the word 'Iraivan' indicated King and not Supreme being (GOD). Moreover, the Thamizh Scholar said that 'Iraivan' is a better usage of Thamizh than the word 'Arasan.'

Not only that, the word Theivam is also found in ThirukkuraL in kural such as:
"Theivaththal aakathu eninum muyatsithan
meivaruththak kUli tharum"

Did ThiruvaLLuvar, really said that kuraL? or was it one of the inserted kural? What did Thiruvalluvar meant by Theivam? The word, Theivam is it Thamizh?

The Word Bagavan is believed to have come in usage in the latter centuries. Although the first ThirukkuraL says, "Bagavan"

"Akara muthala ezhuththellam aAthi
bagavan muthattae ulagu"

In which some Thamizh scholars says that bagavan may have been mistook for the word 'bagalan' which meant 'sooriyan.' If so then how about the other kurals under the first chapter 'praising of the supreme being?'

Which other chapters were inserted into ThirukkuraL? What was the original name of Thiruvalluvar? What was the original name of Illango adigaL?

Does Thamizh have a Golden Mean, like the one Aristrotle found for the Western Philosophy? Are words categorized or can be categorized into being different and meaning different in accord with Golden Mean in Thamizh?

nanRi, paNhivu

[Nedunchezhiyan]

[tscii:b30c0f2dda]//Aaram-saaram-saram is the evolution word saram. Saram means ‘Maalai’. Thiri + kone + Maalai = Thirikonemaalai turned thrikonemalai. Here Thiri = moontru / three. //

The word 'three' in English, did it come from a Latin or Greek root, which came from a Thamizh(Thiri) root?


nanRi, paNhivu[/tscii:b30c0f2dda]

[Idiappam]

From MosesMohammedSplomon:

FSG- I want you to look at the historical facts and not on wishful thinkings. Aryan Invasion was brought in By Maxmuller, Caldwell etc., and that is because they want to split Indians.
When were the Indians united??? What is the caste system the the Rig Veda prescribed all about?? Is it not about spliting Indians??


I have facts and go by International consenses of Dating of Literature and where as you Spread false assumptions.
Of course, of course! Cook up more 'facts' and go by 'International' consenses. Give more unknown names and unknown facts, and say 'Universities' support them.


Sanskrit Literature has its good as much as Tamil,
Sanskrit has more filth than good! I just don't want to flood the Hub with those filth - I will if you insist on lying. We have all the filith from the Rig Veda to Ramayana to Mahabharata to Manu Smriti to KamaSutra. Do you want me to post them - I am sure the Admin won't like it - they are already having a bad time keeping the peace here!


and We do not have One Pre Sanskrit Tamil work.
That is a blatant lie. And solomon, it does make to happy if Sanskrit is Older right??


We know this is not a right interpretation, but anybody can publish and another put it in Net and this will only put Indians as People-meaninglessly split and claim ubsurd roots and waste time.
Looks like you are talking through your a.. If you can exhibit some of your 'linguistic' prowess in proving that the Sanskrit words named here are indeed of Sanskritc orgin - Please do. Else stay away from commenting on roots of words. YOu lack the skill.


Archeology is the best to guide and based on Stone Inscriptions the Tholkappiyam can be never dated earlier than 200-150 BCE,
Why can't it be??


and first Tamil inscriptions are done after Samane North Indians wrote it in their scripts- the Tamil words, Tamil did not have previous scripts, atleast in pre-500 years prior to 500 BCE, Indus Seals, if you cut the Missionaries, 50% read it as Sanskrit and 50% as Proto-Tamil, but with morethan 4000 types of Pictures, they are more Picotorial than Scriptal.
What has the scripts got to do with the Language. Scripts can be changed anytime. There was no Devanagari Script for Sanskrit until fairly recently. Sanskrit had never a sricpt of its own. It was written in the regional scripts - Telegu, Gujarati, Tamil (Grantha), Bengali, etc.

Then by your logic, Sanskrit is just as old as Devanagari Script - about 800 years old.


with Sanskrit on the insistence of Clergy becoming a Grammatical language, giving way to Pali and Prakrits.
No, it is the other way round - Pali, Prakrits and the Dravidian Lanauges gave birth to Sanskrit.


We have Pali Books telling Vedic/Ramayan/Mahabaat stories and these books have gone to neibouring countries in 250BCE, Asokan periods, now you bluff, no Vedas till 100 BCE, would be childish.
That's nonsense!


RSS is not a bad word thought I have no connection with it or accept its ideologies, its much better than Dravidians Parties of Tamilnadu, who now follow Varnasramadharma of putting Sons and Grandsons in all Posts.
YOu affiliation is clear -- you are a Vedic stooge, an anti-Tamil and you are fast becoming an anti-Idiappam. Take care my boy.

[F.S.Gandhi vandayar]

Dear Thiru Nedunchezhian,

Eventhough theivam / eraivan have meaning as king all forefathers / the death people were worshipped for remembrance of their heroic deeds which would induce youngers to excell well in life. Later they were worshipped in "Nadukal vazhipadu". Tamils of Thiruvalluvar days had the belief that their ancestors would protect them in their hardships.

Apart from "Nadugal worship" there were natural god worshippers.
Inthiran(marutha nilam), Varunan (sea land),Mayon(now thirumal), Kotravai, Murugan were gods of 5 lands of tamil culture. I have already expressed this in "Tamil is elder to Sanskrit" column quoting (1250 BCE) Tholkappiam.

"Meen" word created from "Min" root. Things which had "Minnuthal" tendency was named as meen. Vinmeen is one of that word. And since tamil invented "marakkalam" they got stronghold of sea roots and they were called "thiraiyar". Thirai means "alai". You can observe in all meditaranean sea languages this word 'meen' introduced by tamils. Kindly visit "Some tamil words in world languages" column.

For 'three' evolution kindly visit 'Amateur etymology' column in English literature.

I have already talked about the word "Pakavan"- in "thinamum oru vaarththai" column. Pakavu means 'olirvu'. Pakattu is from this root turned pattu - a silk saree. Pakavan specifies 'Suriyan" a natural god of tamils. The earth is based on Pakavan. That is why valluvar talks about that. Suriyan in turn is tamil word from root 'Sur'. Suram,suraththal are from this root.

Dear Nedunchezhian, due to Atheist movement in tamilNadu this kind of queries came into your mind. Actually during valluvar time tamils worshipped natural gods. We have to take all the meaning of kurals in that perspective only. Not vedhic idol worship pattern.
Infact the Idol worship came into being later by the influence of tamil natural gods worshipping.

f.s.gandhi

[F.S.Gandhi vandayar]

Thank you :!: Thiru. Idiappam for revealing the bogus views of Soloman :!:

Readers shall observe his repeated bluffs. :) Sanskrit language won't have any roots since it is an artificial language. Root words combined with archeology are the main source in interpreting the history.

After Piram & Ekam the godly artificial Sankrit has most of the words from roots ava,aba which also found interchangeable with each other. Words based on ‘Ava’ are lesser than the words from ‘aba’ in Sanskrit. ‘Ava’ is tamil origin since ‘Va’ sound used at the beginning of words is found negligible in north Indian languages.

Ava (Av) is ‘suttu oli’ in tamil – one of the primary communication used in tamil. ‘Ava’ is used as third person / thing which is identified as foreign / farrer thing / new to first and second thing reviewed in mind which are nearer to each other.

Avani – ulakam (world), avan- avvidam(that place), avai / avayam- (persons of distance origin assembled), Avayam kaaththal – adai kaaththal (hen protects to deliver new chickens), aval – a new thing from arisi / choru. ‘Avi’ / aviththal – a new thing created by heating. Avaa / Avaavuthal – desire to attain new things. Avayavam – Uruppu - Extra fittings / elements fitted with body after mind and body.

Sometimes this new things may have aspect of negative to first thing.

avathi / avalam – varuththam (sadness) which is opposite to happiness. Avathooru- Pazhi – bad name also has negative meaning.

Avaai nilai – person in needy (abayam & Abaayam in Sanskrit)
There are lot of words in tamil in this root “Av”. Avvai is one of the words of Ancient tamil.

If we replace this ‘Av’ with ‘Ab’ we will get all Sanskrit words While Sanskrit sometimes use direct tamil words with ‘Av’ roots.
Avatharam / Avathari – used for God’s coming / birth on earth (readymade tamil word)

Avasaram, Avamaanam, Avathanam, avamathi etc. are readymade tamil words that Sanskrit uses.

Abinayam- Abi + nayam = new expressions made in God’s idols.

Abibpirayam – Abi + param + Aayam = The essence of God’s intension (new to ordinary human)

AbiMaanam – Abi + Manam – a love to God who is third to one’s love to himself and his wife

Abimukam – Abi + mukam = meeting with God directly.

Abiyukthan – Abi + uththi + an = Extra ordinary ( distant to ordinary ) knowledged person normally God’s Avathars.

Abiraamam / Abiraami – Abi + aramiyam = God’s meant for beauty. Raman / Paarvathi.

Note : Aramiyam was ancient tamil word to specify Beauty. Aran- Arami-Aramiyam Aran –Arani – Ani ornaments. Aramiyam was used to specify Palace,nila mutram & Green place in earth. This Aramiyam turned ‘Rammiyam’ in Sanskrit.

Abilashai – Abi + Aasai- Extra / new desire normally for God.

Abiviruththi – Abi + Viruththam – Extra / new growth by God’s grace

Abeeshtam – Abi + ittam – Extra / new Bagthi to God.

AbaKeerthi – Abi + Karuththu = new intensions of people created against on someone normally against God.

Readers can add more.

f.s.gandhi

[bis_mala]

Solomon wrote:


Archeology is the best to guide and based on Stone Inscriptions the Tholkappiyam can be never dated earlier than 200-150 BCE, and first Tamil inscriptions are done after Samane North Indians wrote it in their scripts- the Tamil words, Tamil did not have previous scripts, atleast in pre-500 years prior to 500 BCE, Indus Seals, if you cut the Missionaries, 50% read it as Sanskrit and 50% as Proto-Tamil, but with morethan 4000 types of Pictures, they are more Picotorial than Scriptal.

The claimed antiquity of S'krit was itself based on speculation. Historical events like Buddha's passing away, Asoka's missionary work, accounts from travellers from outside India --- from the dates of these events. you have to work back and speculate the Aryans entering India must have come in at least two thousand years before and should have taken at least 2000 years to reach the Gangetic plains issuing the vedas. Hence, 2000 yrs before the Christian Era + 2000 yrs in CE. Buddha's demise is calclulated or speculated by references to whatever records are available from Tibet!!

If one does not believe in Aryan Migration into India - worse still, You cannot use the above speculation method to say when the Vedas were written and when the other works came into existence.

As for Tamil, at least there is a legend / history of Kumari Kandam. S'krit has nothing .

Tamil was always known as Tamil. When you talk of Sanskrit, you have so many different names like Chandasa, Vedic etc., It is disputed whether the other names mean "Sanskrit". Why change names if it is the same language? why many times?

Historians say that it was Sanskrit which did not have a writing system.
Why apply that situation to Tamil?

If the first stone inscription was in 100 CE (for example), that does not mean Tolkappiyam was written in 100 CE. What's the connection?. Tomorrow if another stone insc. is found and it is 10000, would the date of Tolkappiyam become also 10K years old? What's the relevannce??

If Sanskrit is IE, why is it not have a writing system like Greek and Latin - Ah, Bah, Cah, Dah etc.,

If it is not IE, why still depend on the dates speculated on the basis of its IE origin?

[mahadevan]

deva/deiva/theivam, is the root for these the tamil word thee (fire), it is clearly known that we were all nature worshippers, and fire was one of the most sacred (scared too) item of worship, not just in Indian context but else where too. So is it likely that the fire worship resulted in the words deva/deiva/theivam ?

[mahadevan]

About the root of names of the trinity of hindu gods,

Siva (from sivapu 'red' in tamil, the rig translation of it to Rudra (rud, root for red in all IE)is the excellent evidence for it

Narayanan, 'neer' means water in tamil, neeranavan, neerayanam...definetly the root is water

Brahma, this word does not seem to be (atleast to me) like having a tamil root, infact a lot of words in vedic like brahman, brahmin..... seems to be related to it. Brahma is associated to the creation. Was this concept of a necessary creator existing is per vedic, tamil hindu culture ?
The semitic religions have a fixation on creation/creator, so is Brahma some kind of pre semitism introduced by vedic aryans to tamil culture.

[bis_mala]

Brahma, this word does not seem to be (atleast to me) like having a tamil root

piRa = be born, piRappiththal = to give birth, to create as well as procreate.

piRa > bra > bramah.

-mah.: either a word ending or means mother or great. (tamil).

Explained with tamil roots, the meaning is strikingly reasonable and sound. Brings out the meaning well.

p changing to b , Ra changing ra and dropping "i" in the process is nothing new between Sans and Tamil.

Please also be informed that according to Abe Dubois, the French researcher of last century, the word may have come from (A-brah-am)
the prophet Abraham of the Old Testament bible. His theory is that Aryans came from the Middle East to India.

The other deity names you mentioned - you are right and there are authors saying so.

sivaththal - verb. (=become red).
siva +am > siva +(a)m > sivam.

It is the conclusion of Western etymologists that lexical borrowings from another langauge can occur in nouns and not verbs. When a word is directly derivable from a Tamil verbal root, it is definitely Tamil. Furthermore Siva is not an Aryan deity ; they adopted him later from the South.

niir > niiraayinan > naaraayinan: water-god. According to historians the original worshippers of this deity are the fishermen. Womenfolk of these men feared the seas and worshipped niiraayinan > naaraayanan.
Blue seas, blue skies , blue became his colour. (see Pazanthamizar vaRalaaRu by Prof. Ve.Thi. Chellam)

viN > viNNu > VishNu. (sky god). [ also of blue colour ]

Later a fusion took place between ViNNu, niiraayinan etc, and krishNA.


So is it likely that the fire worship resulted in the words deva/deiva/theivam ?

The Latin word "deus" (masculine gender god has been traced to the Tamil word: "thEy" (=to rub against) Friction of stones cause fire.

thEy > thEv > thEvu > thEvan, >thEvi (fem.gen).
thEv > dev (northern languages).
thEy > thEvu > theyvu > theyvam. (Ta)..

The Middle Eastern religions had to progress through a web or multitude of tribal deities - often with conflicts - before eventually arriving at a single god theory. Often the religious leader's tribal god succeeded to become the chief or the only God, suppressing the rest or throwing them into oblivion. The single god emergence contributed to the incorporation of various tribes into one larger community. You may be able to come across books on these in your university or other libraries.

It appears that there were fire worshippers or those doing reverance to fire in Middle East. Such practices were almost always suppressed at great cost as related to devil worship by latter day religions. One would not expect to find any now. Niniveh might have been one of the places closely associated with fire worship.

[Idiappam]

Brahma, this word does not seem to be (atleast to me) like having a tamil root

piRa = be born, piRappiththal = to give birth, to create as well as procreate.

piRa > bra > bramah.

Bramah is usually Tamilised as 'paraman' not 'piRaman' or 'piraman'. The Tamil root seems to be 'para' - (wide)

paramanaip paaduvaar adiyaarkku adiyEn... (Sundaramoorthy Nayanaar)

[bis_mala]

paramanaip paaduvaar adiyaarkku adiyEn... (Sundaramoorthy Nayanaar)

You are au fait with Tamil bakti ilakkiyam as I notice from your partaking in other threads.

Would you consider Manickavasagar to be referring to Sivan, Brahman or just the supreme being at large?

[Idiappam]

paramanaip paaduvaar adiyaarkku adiyEn... (Sundaramoorthy Nayanaar)

You are au fait with Tamil bakti ilakkiyam as I notice from your partaking in other threads.
No so, I am not so much into bakti. Just that I messed around too much with the Othuvars at Tank Road Temple here during my younger days - their singing keep ringing in me.


Would you consider Manickavasagar to be referring to Sivan, Brahman or just the supreme being at large?
Manickavasagar - specifically? Thiruvasagam is classified "thOthiram" meaning 'devotional'. So you can see in it, concepts of supreme god Siva, attributes and description of Him, alongside praises filled with some episodes from puranas. More often Manickvasagar refer to Siva as the supreme being at large.

I will glance through my Thiruvasagam - perhaps the first three chapters and come up with quotes - we will see what Manickavagar says. Meanwhile two lines from him....

paraman kANka! pazhaiyOn kANka!
piramanmAl kANAp periyOn kANka!
---- thiruvandapaguthi - Thiruvasagam

Here piraman is lesser than paraman .....

back in a few hours with more lines

[bis_mala]

[tscii:4ff96253df]
thank you idiappam sir! further research - please take your time. no hurry. In the meantime we shall enjoy with a few more words:


¾¢Ãû > ¾¢Ãðº¢
¾¢Ã𺢠> (¾¢Ãð¨º) > ¾¢Ã¡ð¨º. ( ¾¢ÃÇ¡¸ì ¸¡öìÌõ ÀÆ Å¨¸)

¯Õô §À¡Î¾ø = ( Áó¾¢Ã Å¡¾ò¾¢Öõ ºÁÂò ¦¾¡Ø¨¸¸Ç¢Öõ) ´ýÈý À¢ý ´ýÈ¡¸ Áó¾¢Ãí¸¨Çî ¦º¡øÄ¢, ´Õ ÍüÚ ÓÊó¾×¼ý «Îò¾ ÍüÚ ±Éò ¦¾¡¼÷óÐ ÀÄ ÍüÚì¸û ¦º¡øžüÌ, "¯Õô §À¡Î¾ø" ±ýÀ÷.
¯Õ + ¾¢Ã𨺠+ «õ = (¯Õò¾¢Ãðºõ) > ¯Õò¾¢Ã¡ðºõ > ¯ò¾¢Ã¡ðºõ.


thiraL > thiratchi
thiratchi > thiratchai > thirAtchai = thiraLaaka kaaikkum kodimunthirip pazam.

urup pOduthal = onRan pin onRaaka manthirangaLai cholli, oru chuRRu mudinthavudan maRRoru chuRRu ena, pala chuRRukkaL cholvathaRku urup pOduvathu enpar.

uru + thiratchai + am (suffix) = urththiraatcham > uththiraatcham.[/tscii:4ff96253df]

[bis_mala]

[tscii:1fc39ee0c5]thOththiram

þó¾î ¦º¡ø ±ôÀÊ «¨Áó¾Ð?

¾Á¢Æ¢ø §¾¡ýÚ¾ø ±ýÀ¾üÌò "¦¾¡¼í̾ø" ±ý¦È¡Õ ¦À¡Õû ¯ñÎ. "§¾¡ýÈ¢ý Ò¸¦Æ¡Î §¾¡ýÚ¸" ±ýÈ ¾¢ÕìÌÈû ¦¾¡¼Ã¢ø þÐ ¦¾¡¼ì¸ì ¸Õò¨¾ì ÌȢ츢ÈÐ.±í§¸ §À¡ö ±¨¾ò ¦¾¡¼í¸¢É¡Öõ À¢È÷ §À¡üÚõÀÊ¡¸§Å ¦¾¡¼í¸§ÅñÎõ ±ýÀÐ ¦À¡Õû.

§¾¡ýÈ¢ý - 1 À¢Èó¾¡ø 2 ´Õ ШÈ¢ø ÓýÀðÎò §¾¡ýȢɡø. 3 ´ý¨Èò ¦¾¡¼í¸¢É¡ø - ±Éô ÀÄÅ¡È¡¸ô ¦À¡ÕÙ¨ÃòÐûÇÉ÷. (¬Éø þìÌÈÙìÌô ¦À¡Õû ÜÚÅÐ þíÌ §¿¡ì¸ÁýÚ ).

§¾¡üÚÅ¡ö ±ýÈ ¦º¡øÖõ áÄ¢ý ¦¾¡¼ì¸õ ÌÈ¢ò¾ ¦º¡ø§Ä.
§¾¡ýÚ (¾ýÅ¢¨É) > §¾¡üÚ (À¢ÈÅ¢¨É)>§¾¡üÚÅ¢ (À¢ÈÅ¢¨É).
«¾¡ÅÐ: §¾¡ýÚ¾ø - §¾¡üÚ¾ø - §¾¡üÚÅ¢ò¾ø.

§¾¡üÚ > §¾¡òÐ > §¾¡ò¾¢Ãõ (§¾¡òÐ + þ÷ + «õ).

±¨¾Ôõ ¦¾¡¼íÌõ§À¡Ð «øÄР¡¨ÃÔõ ¸¡Ïõ§À¡Ð ӾĢø ¦º¡øÄôÀÎõ þ¨ÈŽì¸î ¦º¡ü§¸¡¨Å.

§¾¡ò¾¢Ãõ ±ýÈ ¦º¡ø þí¹Éõ ¾Á¢ú ãÄî ¦º¡È¸¨Çì ¦¸¡ñÎ «¨Áì¸ôÀð¼ ¦º¡ø.

§¾¡ò¾¢Ãõ À¢ý Š§¾¡ò¾¢Ãõ ¬ÉÐ.[/tscii:1fc39ee0c5]

[bis_mala]

[tscii:77e3033be0]Òá½õ - ÀÆí¸¨¾¸û.

¦ÀÕõÀ¡Öõ ÀÆí¸¨¾¸û ¾¨ÄÓ¨È ¾¨ÄӨȡ¸ ¦ÅÌ ¸¡Äõ Áì¸Ç¢¨¼§Â Å¡ö¦Á¡Æ¢ÂÇÅ¢ø «øÄÐ ¦ºÅ¢ÅÆ¢î ¦ºö¾¢¸Ç¡¸ ÅÆí¸¢É; À¢ýÒ, ¡áÅÐ ´Õ ÒÄÅ÷ «Åü¨È «Æ¢Â¡Áø ¸¡òШÅìÌõ ¦À¡ÕðÎò ¾¢ÃðÊò ¦¾¡ÌòÐ "þÐ þýÉ Òá½õ" ±ýÚ ¾¨ÄôÀ¢ðÎ, þí¹Éõ ¦ÅǢ£Π¸½¼¨Å¸§Ç þýÚ ¯Ä¸¢ø ¸¡½ì¸¢¨¼ìÌõ - ÅÆíÌõ Òá½í¸¦ÇøÄ¡õ.

±Ø¾¢¨ÅôÀÐ, «Åü¨Èô À¡Ð¸¡òÐ ¨ÅôÀ¾üÌ: «¾ü§¸üÀ, Òá½õ ±ýÈ ¦º¡øÖõ ÒÃò¾ø (= ¸¡ò¾ø) ±ýÛõ ¦º¡Ä¢Ä¢É¢ýÚ §¾¡üÚÅ¢ì¸ôÀ𼧾.
Òá½í¸¨Ç µÐž¡ø Áì¸û ¸¡ì¸ôÀÎÅ÷ ±ýÈ ¿õÀ¢ì¨¸Â¢Öõ, ¸¡ò¾ø ±ýÛõ ¦À¡ÕÙñ¨Á¨Â «È¢óЦ¸¡ûÇÄ¡õ.

Òà + «½õ (Ţ̾¢) > Òá½õ ¬Â¢üÚ.

«½õ ±ýÀÐ ´Õ ¦¾¡Æ¢ü¦ÀÂ÷ Ţ̾¢. ¸¡Ã½õ, §¾¡Ã½õ ±ýÚ ÀÄ ¦º¡ü¸Ç¢ø þùŢ̾¢ ÅÃ측ñ¸.

¿¡Ç¨¼Å¢ø Òà > Òá ±ýÈ «Ê¡øÖìÌõ, ÀƨÁ ±ýÈ ¦À¡ÕÙñ¼¡Å¾¡Â¢üÚ. [/tscii:77e3033be0]


Compare: kaappiyam from kaappu + iyam, kaappu - protection ( a thesis or book to protect and preserve language or literature.)

[bis_mala]

[tscii:5afddf4cc1]¬º£÷ > ¬º¢ (¬º£÷Å¡¾õ) ±ýÈ ¦º¡ø.

Å¡úòÐõ§À¡Ð "±øÄ¡õ º£÷¦ÀÈ ¿¼ì¸ðÎõ" " ¡×õ º£Ã¡¸ðÎõ" ±ýÚ Å¡úòÐÓ¸ò¾¡ý, " ¬ - º£÷" ±ýÈÉ÷.

ŢʦÅûÇ¢ ±ýÈ ¦º¡ø¨Ä ´ôÀ¢Î§Å¡õ. þÐ, þÄ츽ò¾¢ø "Å¢Êó¾ ¦ÅûÇ¢" , Ţʸ¢ýÈ ¦ÅûÇ¢, Å¢ÊÔõ ¦ÅûÇ¢" ±ýÚ Ó측Äò¨¾Ôõ ¾Ø×õ. ¬¨¸Â¢É¡ø þ¨¾ Å¢¨Éò¦¾¡¨¸ ±ýÀ÷. Ó측ÄÓõ ¦¾¡ìÌ¿¢ýÈÀÊ¡ø Å¢¨Éò¦¾¡¨¸Â¡Â¢üÚ.

¬-º£÷ ±ýÀÐõ ¬É º£÷, ¬¸¢ýÈ º£÷, ¬Ìõ º£÷ ±É Ó측Äò¾¢üÌõ ÅÕõ.

"¬º£÷ ¯ÁìÌ!" ±ýÚ ÜȢɡø, º£Ã¡ÅÐ ¯ÁìÌ! ±ýÚ ¦À¡Õû.

þÐ À¢ý ¬º¢ ±ýÚ ¸¨¼į̀Èó¾Ð.

À¢ý §ÅÚ ¦Á¡Æ¢¸ÙìÌõ ¦ºýÚ ÅÆí¸¢É þ¡ü¸û.[/tscii:5afddf4cc1]

[Idiappam]

Great, Bis_Mala, your explanation of the origins for "AsIr" - "Asi"!

[F.S.Gandhi vandayar]

Dear bis_mala,

I could not follow your message since I last my tamil fonts storage :!: However I may reinstall in my computer soon :!:

One of our hubber friend asked me in my mail box about some of his purana words' roots. I answered in his personal box. I am just reproducing it here also.

We always should take the meaning of the words depending on the passage that contains the theme within it. Then The actual meaning can be very easily derived.The words are sometimes becoming "Aakupeyar" in meaning.

Then finding Etymology of the words shall be easier.

The first rule we have to apply is that any word in its origin should have vowels since vowels are man's first phonetical syllables.

Miraculously, Tamil has preserved its vowel starting words in usage eventhough they turned consonant starting words for various usage later and we have to also note that tamil has withstood long time uninterrupted by phonetically changed tamil of north India (Vadapaal tamil).

If we observe the core meaning of both Vowel starting and pertinent consonant starting cases, it would be same. Then we have to look into "Oru Porut Kilavikal"-synonyms.

In the case of "Sumba / Nisumba" I take the pronounciation as "Samba / Nisamba" and you have to inform me if you find any difference.

'Samba'- is consonant starting word. Am turned sam just like in Ambalam(Am)- Santhai(Sam) both having same core meaning.

'Ampu' was used by man to get some result / benefit (Payan / Payanpaadu / Nalam)

Ampu turned sambu to specify the same meaning. Sambu is God Sivan's name to specify "Nala malip pavan"(Worthful).

Nisampu is opposite to this just like in Saththam-Shabtham- NiShabtham(opposite).

Since Sanskrit is Artificial language this kind of arrangement was made (there is no much vocabulary to specify the opposite / parallel words. For example 'Akal' is used with jalam combined many times to specify nearly 50 various 'Jalam')

Mahi saasur= Mahi+Saa+ Asoor. Hear mahi means earth / world. Asoor means "Uyirmaiyaana"- ever living / energetic / enormous. 'Saa' is as 'Sariyai'

Aka- Akanda- Akalam(breadth)- Akilam-(parantha Ulakam)

Aka-Aki-Maki is the evolution. Note Aki is vowel starting. Maki is consonant starting. Any consonant starting word is of later origin.

Ayir-Uyir- Ayira- Asura is the evolution.

Dumra Lochan = Dumra + ulochu +an

Thumi is from umi and both words means "Thuli(very tiny),Thooral(small drop), Vettu (sudden glimpse)"

Thumi turned phonetically Dumir-Dumra.

'Ul' is the root of 'Ulai' and both means 'alai kintra' (poising / flowing here and there) or showy in some instances like in Ulakam / Ulokam(Metal).

Ulaivu-Uloiyu-Ulochu is the evolution.

'Human Eye' portrays this tendency and hence eye is named as "Ulochan" in Sanskrit.

Eventually, 'Dumra Lochan' means 'Sudden glimpse of eye'.

Hey 'meena Lochani – Meena lochani', Actor Arjun starrer-Vidyasakar music- tamil movie song is an example :!:

f.s.gandhi

[bis_mala]

FSG sir! thank you so much. I enjoyed reading your post and noted your points.
anbudan b.i.s_mala.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

LAAVANYAM.
-------------

[tscii:50f6647571]¯Ä¸ò¾¢ø þøÄ¡¾ «ÆÌ!
þó¾ Åð¼¡Ãò¾¢§Ä§Â þøÄ¡¾ - §¾ÊÉ¡ø ¸¡½ì¸¢¨¼ì¸¡¾ ÅÉôÒ!!

ÍÕì¸Á¡¸ì ÜȢɡø, " þÄ¡ «ÆÌ!"
«ÆÌ ±ýÀÐ Á¢¸ò ¦¾Ç¢Å¡¸ ¯ûÇÐ. ¦º¡ü¸¨Çô À¨¼ìÌõ§À¡Ð «ùÅÇ× ¦¾Ç¢Å¢Õì¸ìܼ¡Ð.
´Õ «Õ了¡ø¨Äô §À¡ð¼¡ø ¿ýÈ¡¸ þÕì̧Á!

þÄ¡ «½¢! ¬Á¡õ, «½¢ ±ýÀÐ µ÷ «ÆÌ ÌÈ¢ìÌõ ¦º¡ø¾¡§É!

þÄ¡ «½¢! > þġŽ¢!

¦ÀÂ÷¡øÄ¡ö ¬ì¸¢ §ÀẢâÂ÷¸¨Çܼò ¾¢¨¸ì¸¨ÅòÐÅ¢¼Ä¡§Á!

¬õ!. «Ð§Å ºÃ¢Â¡É µº¨É(§Â¡º¨É), ´Õ "«õ"¨Áô §À¡ðΠŢ¼Âò¨¾ «Ó츢Ţ¼Ä¡õ.

þÄ¡+«½¢+«õ = þġŽ¢Âõ.

±ôÀÊ §ÅüÚ¦Á¡Æ¢ò §¾¡üÈõ ¦¸¡ÎôÀÐ?

þġŽ¢Âõ > Ä¡ÅñÂõ!!

õõõõõ... þô§À¡Ð þÄ쨸 «¨¼óÐŢ𧼡õ! ¡Õõ ¸ñΦ¸¡ûÇ ÓÊ¡Ð, ¿ÁÐ Ä¡ÅñÂò¨¾!![/tscii:50f6647571]

ulakaththil illAtha azaku!
in-tha vaddAraththilEyE illAtha - thEdinAl kANakkidaikkAtha vanappu!!

surukkamAkak kURinAl, " ilA azaku!"
azaku enpathu mikath theLivAka uLLathu. soRkaLaip padaikkumpOthu avvaLavu theLivirukkakkUdAthu.
oru arunjsollaip pOddAl n-anRAka irukkumE!

ilA aNi! AmAm, aNi enpathu Or azaku kuRikkum solthAnE!

ilA aNi! > ilAvaNi!

peyarssollAy Akki pErAsiriyarkaLaikUdath thikaikkavaiththuvidalAmE!

Am!. athuvE sariyAna Osanai(yOsanai), oru "am"maip pOddu vidayaththai amukkividalAm.

ilA+aNi+am = ilAvaNiyam.

eppadi vERRumozith thORRam koduppathu?

ilAvaNiyam > lAvaNyam!!

mmmmm... ippOthu ilakkai adain-thuviddOm! yArum kaNdukoLLa mudiyAthu, n-amathu lAvaNyaththai!!

[bis_mala]

[tscii:8e5b5a57e8]ÐÅõ ±ýÈ À¢ý¦É¡ðÎ The suffix 'thva"
---------------------------------

¸Å¢òÐÅõ, þóÐòÐÅõ ±ýÀÉ §À¡ýÈ þýÉ À¢È ¦º¡ü¸Ç¢ø -ÐÅõ ±ýÈ À¢ý¦É¡ðÎ (suffix) ÅÕ¸¢ýÈÐ. ¾òÐÅõ, ¸¡ÄÉ¢òÐÅõ ±ý¦ÈøÄ¡õ ¾¡Ç¢¨¸¸Ç¢ø ¸¡½Ä¡õ. þÐ ¾Á¢ú - ¾¢Ã¡Å¢¼ ¦Á¡Æ¢¸Ç¢Ä¢Õó§¾ À¢È «Âø ¦Á¡Æ¢¸ÙìÌô ÀÃÅ¢ÔûÇÐ.

«òÐ ±ýÛõ º¡Ã¢¨Â ¾Á¢Æ¢ø ¦¾¡ýÚ ¦¾¡ðÎ ÅÆí¸¢ ÅÕÅÐ. - РŢ̾¢Ôõ «í¹É§Á ÀÆí¸¡ÄÓ¾ø ÅÆí¸¢ÅÕž¡Ìõ. «Ð, þÐ, ±ÕÐ ±Éî ÍðÎô ¦ÀÂ÷ ¦À¡Õð¦ÀÂ÷¸Ç¢ø ÅÕÅÐ ÁðÎÁýÚ; «Æ¢òÐ, «¨¼òÐ ±É Å¢¨É ±îºí¸Ç¢Öõ þÐ ¯ûÇÐ. " ´Øì¸òÐ" "Å¢ØôÀòÐ" ӾĢ ¦º¡øġ𺢸ǢÖõ «òÐ þÕ츢ýÈÐ. "¯¨¼òÐ" (=¯¨¼ÂÐ) ±ýÀ¾¢ø Ð ¯ûÇÐ.

«õ Ţ̾¢Ôõ «Èõ, ¾¢Èõ ӾĢ ÀÄ ¦º¡ü¸Ç¢ø ÅÕõ.

¸Å¢òÐÅõ < ( ¸Å¢+ Ð + «õ) or ( ¸Å¢ + «òÐ + «õ) It does not matter which as both are from Tamiz.

¸Å¢òÐ = ¸Å¢Â¢Û¨¼Â. «õ = ÀñÒ «øÄР̽õ.

¾òÐÅõ ±ýÀÐ:

¾ý > ¾. then ¾ + Ð + «õ = ¾ý ̽õ «øÄÐ ÀñÒ. «Ð ¡¦¾É¢ø ´ýÈý ¯ûÇ£¼¡¸¢Â ̽õ ¬Ìõ.

-ÐÅõ ±ýÈ À¢ý¦É¡ðÎõ ¾òÐÅõ Ӿġ¸¢Â ¦º¡ü¸Ùõ ¾Á¢ú ãÄí¸Ç¢Ä¢ÕóÐ À¨¼ì¸ôÀð¼¨Å.

þô§À¡Ð ÐÅõ ±ýÀÐ "òÅ" ±ýÈ¡¸¢ «Âø ¦Á¡Æ¢¸Ç¢ø ÅÄõÅÕ¸¢ýÈÐ.[/tscii:8e5b5a57e8]



thuvam enRa pinnoddu The suffix 'thva"
---------------------------------

kaviththuvam, in-thuththuvam enpana pOnRa inna piRa soRkaLil -thuvam enRa pinnoddu (suffix) varukinRathu. thaththuvam, kAlaniththuvam enRellAm thALikaikaLil kANalAm. ithu thamiz - thirAvida mozikaLilirun-thE piRa ayal mozikaLukkup paraviyuLLathu.

aththu ennum sAriyai thamizil thonRu thoddu vazangki varuvathu. - thu vikuthiyum angnganamE pazangkAlamuthal vazangkivaruvathAkum. athu, ithu, eruthu enas suddup peyar porudpeyarkaLil varuvathu maddumanRu; aziththu, adaiththu ena vinai essangkaLilum ithu uLLathu. " ozukkaththu" "vizuppaththu" muthaliya sollAdsikaLilum aththu irukkinRathu. "udaiththu" (=udaiyathu) enpathil thu uLLathu.

am vikuthiyum aRam, thiRam muthaliya pala soRkaLil varum.

kaviththuvam < ( kavi+ thu + am) or ( kavi + aththu + am) It does not matter which as both are from Tamiz.

kaviththu = kaviyinudaiya. am = paNpu allathu kuNam.

thaththuvam enpathu:

than > tha. then tha + thu + am = than kuNam allathu paNpu. athu yAthenil onRan uLLIdAkiya kuNam Akum.

-thuvam enRa pinnoddum thaththuvam muthalAkiya soRkaLum thamiz mUlangkaLilirun-thu padaikkappaddavai.

ippOthu thuvam enpathu "thva" enRAki ayal mozikaLil valamvarukinRathu.

[F.S.Gandhi vandayar]

I wanted to write more Mr/Ms/Mrs.(confusion) bis_mala :!: I couldn't do much with my limited time :!:

You are doing perfectly What I expected :!: Continue your posts frequently :!: Lot of hubbers are following you-including me :!:

Since sanskrit is an artificial language, with one tamil root more no. of sanskrit words happened to be evolved. Explore that aspect also in your posts whenever time permits :!: Thanks a lot :)

f.s.gandhi

[bis_mala]

Miss S~mala. (B.I. initials ).. Thanks for the compliments contained in your post. Best regards.

[F.S.Gandhi vandayar]

Dear Miss bis_mala,

There is one more case like this in my business communication in Saudi Arabia to UK.

In UK a company called 'Flexitallic Ltd.'- supplier to our company and a person called Shirley Tolliday whom I have made frequently emails for quotations addressing MR in name for the past six months. Last week that person sent me mail stating that She is Miss and not Mr.

I thought she would have disapointed but she sent me message that she was not upset stating that I must know whom I am talking to which may lead me respecting in its true way.

I believe, I was not making you upset.

Thanks.

f.s.gandhi

[bis_mala]

I believe, I was not making you upset.

Dear FSG aNNa. not to worry. not upset.

anbudan

Miss S~mala

[bis_mala]

[tscii]Dear FSG.

Many Dravidian linguists speak of lexical borrowings by Tamil from Sanskrit. For them, the basis for such thinking is simple. If a word is found in the Sanskrit Lexicon and is also in use in Tamil, then it is assumed that Tamil borrowed it from Sanskrit. The Tamil Lexicon was developed by the then University of Madras based on the Sanskrit Lexicon as to etymology. Hence the Tamil lexicon merely mirrored the Sanskrit Lexicon without independent research for Tamil..

Relying entirely on the opinion-based conclusions Max Muller and William Jones, Sanskrit lexicographers took a firm stand on the antiquity of Sanskrit. Hence for example, when Tamil also had the same word albeit with a slightly different (allegedly “Tamilised”) pronunciation, the Sanskrit lexicographer concluded, ignoring Tamil that it must be a Sanskrit word. All the Dravidian linguistic departments and institutes still follow the Sanskrit lexicon as their gospel. (Since they proceeded on the presumption that Sanskrit was the mother of Indian languages (MST theory prevailed), Sanskrit lexicographer of yesteryears could simply include as Sanskrit all from other Indian languages in his lexicon, the justification being provided by MST)

This was also the reason why Dr Vaiyapuri Pillai of Madr. Uni thought that Valluvar's kuRaL was liberal in borrowing from Sanskrit and it must therefore be a much later work than the Sangam literature. Furthermore scholars belonging to a certain class writing books in the l8c and 19th c ACE said that many words now proven to have Tamil roots were Sanskrit.

We must bear in mind that thus, 18c propositions are now being repeated ( repetition does not make it a fresh piece of evidence ) all over by various independent and salaried Sanskrit, pro-Sanskrit and Dravidian "linguists", powerless to contradict the Sanskrit lexicon even if they wanted to. Furthermore Sanskrit institutes and departments are superior (in organizational setup and lineup) to Tamil (Dravidian) Departments and institutes, whether they are doing linguistic research or not.

Ultimately, all of them are relying on the dates given for Aryan arrival in India, by the early Western historians. Those proposing the falsity of ARYAN INVASION / MIGRATION THEORY have no reason to rely on the estimated dates given by Western historians to date other "documents" such as the Vedas and Upanishads. Their stand also necessitated a fresh explanation and definition for the terms "Aryan" and "Brahmana" and caused a collapse of the theory of their own superiority . The claimed antiquity of Sanskrit also stands without any basis or foundation to support it.

There is really no proof as to the antiquity of Sanskrit. It was also never a "language" spoken by any linguistic group of any given region in India. Why Max Muller and William Jones thought it was a language spoken by any linguistic group of any given region in India is really not known. If Aryan is not a race then whose language is Sanskrit? If then "Indo-European" words in Sanskrit were just borrowed words through contact with old Persians of those days, is Sanskrit still an Indo-European language? (Counter query: Then why certain features of the language are close to Indo-European or Indo-Iranian?)

Whether Sanskrit is an Indian language or Indo-European, why is it called Sanskrit meaning a refined language? What was it refined from? The refined comes from the crude and not the other way round. Where is the unrefined language? What evidence is there to say Prakrit derived from Sanskrit? Answers are also required for all these and many other questions that may arise in the course of our study.

Since there are so many gray areas, the only way to determine whether a word is Tamil or Sanskrit is to examine its roots or possible roots. If the word can be explained by Tamil roots, it is a Tamil word. Sanskrit being a never-spoken liturgical code language, it borrowed from various then existing languages including Tamil to formulate the prayer/liturgy codes. This is the basis on which I intend to carry on my discussion in this and related topics.

Among the various categories of persons in the world, a scholar or linguist is one who is allowed to make any statement in connection with his field, whether true or false. You cannot prosecute him for it if it were wrong. But a doctor or persons of other profession are not so privileged. Thus a doctor cannot knowingly and falsely certify one as having AIDS when he does not have it!! But a linguist can say anything about a word. You cannot litigate on his statement whether you relied on it or not! Do you think otherwise? More so in the field of antiquity of Sanskrit or something where everyone seem to doing scholarly guesswork. Linguistics according to one Western writer, is a faculty to which someone who is not wanted in any other faculty would go!! It is also a field, which has to dance to policies and ideologies. That requires the consumers in the field to be really cautious (caveat)!!

[F.S.Gandhi vandayar]

Dear sister Ms. bis_mala, :)

I agree all of your views. When persons like Mr.Vayapuri pillai is there, wrong leading will always happen.

The lexicon makers forgets one thing. When they find a word in Sanskrit they have to ask for more 'Oru porut kilavikal' - synonyms evolved in that language. Sanskrit is dead now. So if they could not find in its literature they have to search sankritized pattern of such word in other indian languages which they cannot.

I find more than 70 % words of hindi is tamil remaining from semetic group which also ends with tamil roots. You can very easily fit tamil sentences into Hindi without changing their pattern.
'Pichasu'(language of demon) which prevailed all over India before paly and prakrit was tamil and "Maayon" worship was followed all over India.

I am learning Arabic now and when I go deeply I understand lot of literary tamil words used there :!: Now I find reading Arabic very easy. :!:

Anybody had better learn chinese and japanese through tamil than English. The process shall be easier.

When tamil dies or turned into some other language and tamilian identity is closed in India perhaps Indian scholars that you noted may accept tamil's motherliness. They have Psychological barrier like other ordinary indian citizens. What to do bis_ mala :?:

The sanskrit proudness among scholars is just like English proudness among masses of India and this is due to its latest accredition in the chronolgy of world history. We need not worry about that. Paavanar led "akara muthlai"- tamil lexicon. We have to follow this way and advance more :!:

f.s.gandhi

[viggop]

Dear FSG

Siva == Sivapu? Rudra means red?

Does this mean Tamils visualised Shiva as very fair in colour?Shiva wears tiger skin.
Parvathi is dark in colour
Vishnu is always dark in colour(wearing yellow cloth)
Lakshmi is fair(red cloth and lotus)
Brahma is also fair in colour.Saraswathi is also fair but wears white cloth only with Vedas and veena in her hands.

I'm surprised at white cloth of Saraswathi as "white" for women in TN meant different connotations.

[F.S.Gandhi vandayar]

Dear FSG

Siva == Sivapu? Rudra means red?

Does this mean Tamils visualised Shiva as very fair in colour?Shiva wears tiger skin.
Parvathi is dark in colour
Vishnu is always dark in colour(wearing yellow cloth)
Lakshmi is fair(red cloth and lotus)
Brahma is also fair in colour.Saraswathi is also fair but wears white cloth only with Vedas and veena in her hands.

I'm surprised at white cloth of Saraswathi as "white" for women in TN meant different connotations.

Aram - Araththam(Raththam)- blood, uruththiram(uru+thiram)Uthiram,Sevappu-Sivappu,Sekkam-Seveil, Sevvazhai, Sevviya - all specifies Reddish colour. Siva is reddish colour in nature. Human skin of black shadowed light fair is called reddish skin.

In 'Tamil's elderiness to world languages thread' I wrote about Arabians-reddish people. The root is 'Aram'.

Hence siva is not fair in colour. But Black with fair shadow. If you see the colour of blood you will come to know.

kadavul- means kada+Ul= "Ul kadantha thanmai" - meyyari nilai.

Without blood there is no breathing. Hence tamil people identified the god as red as "Ul kadantha thanmai".

Parvathi - Sakthi - okay. Vishnu is from 'Vinnu'. He was called 'Maayon'. Maayon worship is mentioned in Tholkappiam. He was 'Aayar' (marutham milk man) God and he was later termed as Kannan. Kan-means black. Karunan-Krunan- Krishnan is the evolution.

Later during 4th century CE Krishna was made as "Avathara Purushar". Elakkumi(Lakshmi) was called 'Nappinai' in tamil culture.

Brahma is from tamil Paraman and when Vaishna culture was on top during 6th century CE Brahma stories were written. Historien P.T Srinivasa Iyengar mentions that 'Foot story'(i.e. third foot measurement -purana) is the later imagination of third "KADALKOL" occured in tamil country. Visit 'History of tamil' column for tamil Gods.

Saraswathi is also a God evolved in Gangai valley civilization(Saraswathi river civilization) or Vedhic culture during 2nd and 3nd Century CE.

f.s.gandhi

[viggop]

wonderful explanation FSG!

Till this time, i took it as if Shiva's colour was fair!

[Nedunchezhiyan]

excerpts from Thiru A P MASILAMANI's posts from the topic 'Is Tamil Derived From Sanskrit.'

FORMATION OF THE WORD NAARAYANAN AND ILAKKUMI


T: viN > vuNNu > borrowed by others as vishNu. (the sky-god).
You know that rain - water comes from the sky!
Thus, prosperity, ilakkumi became the consort of viN.

niiraayinan > naaraayaNan
naaraayaNan > naaraayaNi - (later concept ) consort of naaraayaNan.

Ilakku > ilakkuthal
Ilakku > ilakkiththal
Ilakku > ilakku + (u)m + i (suffix) = ilakkumi.
Ilakku = any symbol, then: a demarcated place, then: any place.
By 1400ACE or so, Skrt took in the word ilakkumi as lakshimi.


ORIGIN OF THE WORD ILINGAM AND THE WORD IZU



LINGAM

ilingam > lingam > Skrt: linga, ling.

ilu > ilangu (or ilanku) = shine, emit light.
The term ezutu was derived from izutu.

izu (pull, draw) > izuthu > izuthu. You write by drawing (pulling) the pen or writing equipment towards, away from, and to the left or write. Even the English word draw is similarly formed. The earliest man had to draw pictures first which later evolved into characters and letters of the alphabet. The Tamil term ezuthu and the history of writing in many major languages will prove what the early man did. Examination of language and its terms can unfold to you history that can take you back to thousands of years. .

izu changed to ilu. z>l interchangeability. I have written something about this before, as far as I can remember.

excerpts

ilu > ilingam: (originally) meant a ray of light reaching you from a body above, as though it is pulled or descending towards you. Saiva scriptures say that Sivam is oLi vadivinan. This should have been represented by a elongated cylindrical thing, which later evolved into the present lingam in the temples. The receptor of this ray of light is represented by something surrounding it tightly as if penetrating. That completes the picture of the ray and its reception.

This word ilingam tells you a nice story. ilu + ingu + am= ilingam. Ingu varum oLi vadivu. The root words and the picture are entirely Dravidian..

As everything else, things change and we have ilingam represented as man - woman objects, which may be a different way of depicting the god - man relationship.

ilingam > lingam > Skrt: linga, ling.

ilu > ilangu (or ilanku) = shine, emit light.

[bis_mala]

ilingam > lingam > Skrt: linga, ling.

ilu > ilangu (or ilanku) = shine, emit light.

Good, Mr Neduncheziyan. Thanks for bringing up.

[viggop]

Good to know that Vishnu also came from tamil word "vinnu"
and "Krishna" from "kannan"

What about names like "Rama" , "Sita"
Does these names have Tamil Origin too?

[Bebeto]

ilingam > lingam > Skrt: linga, ling.

ilu > ilangu (or ilanku) = shine, emit light.

Good, Mr Neduncheziyan. Thanks for bringing up.

emit light?

eruption ... comes to my mind :lol:

[bis_mala]

[tscii:66dd3e10e3]áÁ(ý) º£¨¾.

The word evolved as follows from Tamil root word:

" ir" (Tamil rootword) means "darkness", "hours of darkness(night time)".

ir - iravu þ÷ > þÃ× ( vu × suffix ).
ir - iraa þ÷ > þá ( aa ¬ suffix)
(other words with aa suffix: kalaa, nilaa, ulaa and so on ).
ir - iruL þ÷ > þÕû ( uL ¯û suffix )
(other words with uL suffix: aruL, poruL, maruL, theruL ).

Do you recognise the root (ir) giving birth to other words?

ir - iraam - raam. (meaning the dark man. Like Krishna, Rama was also dark.)
ir - irraam - iraaman (Tamil form).

Conclusion: Ram is a northern Dravidian word formed from the Tamil root "ir".

ir - iravi (sun). iruLai avippavan or azippavan. avi = azi, means destroy. avi also means cook. avi (rootword) has several meanings or connotations.

ir - iravi - ravi = sun who destroys darkness.

Original meaning of the word "raam" is : black deity. Sanskritist later composed a new etymology for the word to hide its origin and original meaning.

Seetha is claimed to have come from Sri (Sanskrit) which came from "thiru" (Tamil) which in turn came from "thiraL" collection or collection of riches, accumulations.

It is claimed by Skrt exponents that it evolved as follows: sri devi > sii thEvi > siithaa. But sri has been explained above and it came from Tamil and devi (thEvi ) is a Tamil word also. Devi has been explained before.

Pl note that the English word "accumulations" can also mean riches as in "perpetuities and accumulations". (phrase used in land law).

However, Swami Nyanapragasam said it derived from chezi ¦ºÆ¢, (¦ºÆ¢ > ‚ )). The parent root for both thiraL and chezi is: °. I cannot give it in detail here.[/tscii:66dd3e10e3]

Bebeto:

iruption? no eruption! emitting light is the meaning.

[viggop]

Dear Bis_Mala
Thanks a lot for the explanation.Actually, there is supposed to be a pre-Kamba ramayanam in Tamil which was supposed to be very old.Parts of this are put in Project Madurai by one Mr.Chadrasekharan. Even purananooru uses the word 'rama'.This probably means Rishi Valmiki might have composed ramayanam in Thamizh and also later in sanskrit!!!

[bis_mala]

[tscii:42eca2cbfe]Grateful viggop!

Best regards to you.


---------------------------------------------------------------------

Å¡ø vaal = àö¨Á. purity. (vaal has other meanings too. not relevant)

Å¡ÄÈ¢Åý ¿üÈ¡û ¦¾¡Æ¡÷ ±É¢ý. (ÌÈû).

vAlaRivan n-aRRAL thozAr enin. (kuRaL).

val Åø = ÅÄ¢¨Á, strength.

Å¡ø + Á¢Ì+ þ = Å¡øÁ¢¸¢. (àö¨Á Á¢ì¸Å÷).

Åø + Á¢Ì + þ = ÅøÁ¢¸¢ corrupted to Å¡øÁ¢¸¢ = ÅÄ¢¨Á Á¢ì¸Å÷.


þÕû¾£÷ó¾¡÷ = ÓÉ¢Å÷. þÕû§º÷ þÕÅ¢¨ÉÔõ §ºÃ¡¾Å÷, ¦ÅýÈÅ÷.

þÕû¾£÷ó¾¡÷ > þÕû¾£÷ > þÕË÷ > þÕÊ.

û + ¾£ = Ë ( according to grammar ).

þÕÊ > þÕ„¢ > â„¢.

irudi > irushi > rishi. [/tscii:42eca2cbfe]

[bis_mala]

[tscii:ac59b26b97]þí¸¢ÕôÀÐ "þÐ" «øÄÐ þí¸¢ÕôÀ¨Å : " þ¨Å".

þÐ ±ýÈ ¾Á¢ú¡ø. ÁÄ¡ö¦Á¡Æ¢Â¢ø "þòÐ" (itu) ±ýÚ ÅÆí̸¢ÈÐ.

Á¢¸ô ÀÆí¸¡Äò¾¢ø þíÌ þÐ ±ýÀÅüÚìÌ §ÅÚÀ¡Î¸û þø¨Ä.

þÐ > º¢ò¾¡ù. (º£É¦Á¡Æ¢) þò > º¢ò. = means here.

þ > †¢ > ¬í¸¢Ä¦Á¡Æ¢. here.

þ > º¢òÐ (þí§¸) ÁÄ¡ö¦Á¡Æ¢. situ.

¾Á¢úî Í𦼡Ģ¸û ¯Ä¸ ¦Á¡Æ¢¸Ç¢ý ±í¹Éõ ¾¢Ã¢ó¾É ±ýÀÐ ¬ö×ìÌâ Ţ¼ÂÁ¡Ìõ.

þÐ ¿¢ü¸, þ¾Ã ±ýÈ ¦º¡ø ¾Á¢Æ¢ø ÅÆí̸¢ÈÐ. þÐ ±í¹Éõ «¨Áó¾Ð?

þÐ + «È = þ¾È > þ¾Ã.

þÐ «øÄ¡Áø, þÐ ¾Å¢Ã ±ýÚ ¦À¡Õû. «ôÀÊ¡ɡø "ÁüȨÅ" ±ýÚ ¦À¡Õû.

þ¾Ã ±ýÈ ¾¢Ã¢Òî ¦º¡øÄ¢ø ¯ûÇ «·È¢¨½ Ţ̾¢ÀüȢ ¯½÷× Á¨È§Å, «î¦º¡ø Á¡ó¾¨Éì ÌÈ¢ì¸×õ ÀÂýÀð¼Ð.

¯¾¡¸Ã½Á¡¸, "þ¾Ã Á¡¾Õ¼ý ¿£ ¸Ç¢ì¸§Å¡" ±ýÈ Å¡ì¸¢Âò¾¢¨É §¿¡ì¸×õ.



ingkiruppathu "ithu" allathu ingkiruppavai : " ivai".

ithu enRa thamizssol. malAymoziyil "iththu" (itu) enRu vazangkukiRathu.

mikap pazangkAlaththil ingku ithu enpavaRRukku vERupAdukaL illai.

ithu > siththAv. (sInamozi) ith > sith. = means here.

i > hi > Angkilamozi. here

i > siththu (ingkE) malAymozi. situ - here in Malay.

thamizs suddolikaL ulaka mozikaLin engnganam thirin-thana enpathu Ayvukkuriya vidayamAkum.

ithu n-iRka, ithara enRa sol thamizil vazangkukiRathu. ithu engnganam amain-thathu?

ithu + aRa = ithaRa > ithara.

ithu allAmal, ithu thavira enRu poruL. appadiyAnAl "maRRavai" enRu poruL.

ithara enRa thiripus sollil uLLa aqRiNai vikuthipaRRiya uNarvu maRaiyavE, assol mAn-thanaik kuRikkavum payanpaddathu.

uthAkaraNamAka, "ithara mAtharudan n-I kaLikkavO"" enRa vAkkiyaththinai n-Okkavum.

Do not worry about ra>Ra difference. Historically it was ignored for sometime (stone inscriptions evidence).

Ra is actually a double ra written together with a tail hanging down. Also see how Ra occurs in MalayaLam. Ezuththachchan must have realised this clearly.[/tscii:ac59b26b97]

[bis_mala]

[tscii:beccf8add4]Note: It is usual for words to acquire a consonant or lose one when they travel from one language to another and from this side of the border to the other. Example:

chinthu (Tamil/ Northern Dravidian) > hinthu (Hindu)(Iranian) > Hindu > þóÐ (¾Á¢ú)
in-thu (thamiz)

This has been explained by others in Is Tamil derived from Skrt thread. The same rule applies to the words of other languages given in the above post, which are compared to Tamil words.[/tscii:beccf8add4]

[viggop]

I want to know the root of 'Subramanyan'.This is another name for Lord Murugan kept only by Tamils.

[bis_mala]

Dear viggop,


[tscii:a79a14f071]subramaniam
------------------

Í -- ͨ¾ (Tamiz) Íñ½¡õÒ, À¡ø, mortar (¦Åñ¨Á ¿¢Èõ).
Í -- Íò¾õ (white signifies cleanliness )
Í -- Í츢Äõ Skrt. (white) (usage: skrt: Íì¸¢Ä Àðºõ, Í츢Äõ(semen)


ÍôÀ¢Ãͨ¾ - ¸¡ð¦¼Õ¨Áô À¡ø ( ¦Åñ¨Á).
ÍôÀ¢Ãõ - ¦Åñ¨Á, ´Ç¢.

From the above, we have to bear in mind that chu (Í) refers to white or whiteness and purity.

Íñ rootword of Íñ½¡õÒ.

Íñ½õ
Íñ½¡õÒ

Íñ > ÍðÒ (Íñ, + Ò suffix) > ÍôÒ. = white.
ÍôÒ + þÕ + «õ = ÍôÀ¢Ãõ something in which whiteness and/ or purity resides. immaculate! ÍôÀ¢ÃÁïºõ = clean bed, probably of clean white spread.

ÍôÒ(Tamiz) > ÍôÒ subbu (skrt) > subra (skrt).

maNi - Á½¢ = (something pure and precious, e.g. a gem )

subramaNiam - a pure and precious (divine) entity.

Íñ > Í used as prefix in many words denoting purity.


Please note that (sivaththal),* sivappu is pronounced colloquially as suvappu and su Í can also mean redness. According to some researchers, su preceded si in development. Thus it can variously be interpreted that suppu refers to the red deity or ¦ºù§Åû. Either way, chu is the root word and is Tamil.

subramaniam
------------------
The last -am is suffix. Dont' bother about it.

su -- suthai (Tamiz) suNNAmpu, pAl, mortar (veNmai n-iRam).
su -- suththam (white signifies cleanliness )
su -- sukkilam Skrt. (white) (usage: skrt: sukkila padsam, sukkilam(semen)


suppirasuthai - kAdderumaip pAl ( veNmai).
suppiram - veNmai, oLi.

From the above, we have to bear in mind that chu (su) refers to white or whiteness and purity.

suN rootword of suNNAmpu.

suNNam
suNNAmpu

suN > sudpu (suN, + pu suffix) > suppu. = white.
suppu + iru + am = suppiram something in which whiteness and/ or purity resides. immaculate! suppiramanjsam = clean bed, probably of clean white spread.

suppu(Tamiz) > suppu subbu (skrt) > subra (skrt).

maNi - maNi = (something pure and precious, e.g. a gem )

subramaNiam - a pure and precious (divine) entity.

suN > su used as prefix in many words denoting purity..
[/tscii:a79a14f071]

[viggop]

<quote>
suN > su used as prefix in many words denoting purity..
</quote>

like suprabhatham
supraja(kausalya supraja rama) --- good/pure son

[bis_mala]

like suprabhatham
supraja(kausalya supraja rama) --- good/pure son

yes! good.


praja


This word is from Tamil piRa = be born.

The word praja is forged by simply adding the ending -jaa or -ja to the Tamil word. (dropping the intermediate "i" so routine in Ta > Skrt )

The evidence points to Tamil being extensively used in the making of Sanskrit!!

Consider the word praja in all its Sanskrit connotations.

procreation , propagation , birth offspring , children , family , race , posterity , descendants , aftergrowth (of plants) , a creature , animal , man , mankind ; people , subjects (of a prince) ; seed , semen

All these meanings of the word praja are still relevant to Tamil root word: piRa.

[viggop]

<quote>
The evidence points to Tamil being extensively used in the making of Sanskrit!!
</quote>

It could be Tamilians who actually created sanskrit to communicate with North Indian people.

[Uthappam]

<quote>
The evidence points to Tamil being extensively used in the making of Sanskrit!!
</quote>

It could be Tamilians who actually created sanskrit to communicate with North Indian people.

And it was not understood, at all, by those in the north, either.. Ha, what a waste!

[mahadevan]

"It could be Tamilians who actually created sanskrit to communicate with North Indian people"'

That is streching it beyond a limit, but it is for sure that Sanskrit was highly influenced by Tamil durings its creation, just like it heavily borrowed from prakrits. MST is true as long as the 'M' stands for Mongrel

[bis_mala]

[tscii:f389ae0341]
«ñ¼ôÒÙ¸ý - Á¢¸ô¦Àâ ÒÙ¸ý.
«ñ¼¡ = Á¢¸ô¦Àâ À¡¨É.

þÅüȢĢÕóÐ "«ñ¼õ" "«ñ¼¡" ±ýÈ ¦º¡ü¸ÙìÌô "¦ÀâÂ" ±ýÛõ ¦À¡Õû/¦À¡ÕÙõ ¯ûÇÐ ±ýÀÐ ¦¾Ã¢¸¢ÈÐ.
Á¢Ì ¦ÀÕ¨Á¨Âì ÌÈ¢ìÌõ À¢ÃõÁ¡ñ¼õ ±ýÈ ¦º¡ø «¨Áó¾Ð ±ùÅ¡Ú?


¦ÀÕõ «ñ¼õ > ¦ÀÕÁñ¼õ > À¢ÃõÁ¡ñ¼õ!!

þÐ À¢ý À¢ÃõÁ+«ñ¼õ ±ýÚ À¢ÈÆ ¯½ÃôÀð¼Ð ±ÉÄ¡õ.

À¢ÃõÁ¡ ±ýÀÐõ À¢È, Àà ±ýÀÅüÚû ´ýȢĢÕ󧾡 «øÄÐ "¦ÀÕÁ¡ý" ±ýÈ ¦º¡øÄ¢ý ż¦Á¡Æ¢ò ¾¢Ã¢À¡¸§Å¡ ¸Õ¾ò¾ì¸Ð. þÐÀüÈ¢ §Á§Ä ÜÈôÀðÎûÇÐ.

§ÀÃñ¼õ ±ýÚ ¦¸¡ûÇ¡Áø "¦ÀÕõ «ñ¼õ" ±ýÚ (ÅÕ¦Á¡Æ¢Â¢ø ¯Â¢÷ Ӿġ¸ Åó¾Å¢¼òÐõ) ¯ÕÅ¡ì¸õ ¦ºöÅÐ, §ÀîÍ ÅÆ츢ø "¦ÀÕõ" ±ýÀÐ ÀÂý¦ÀÚõ Ũ¸ ¸Õ¾¢.


aNdappuLukan - mikapperiya puLukan.
aNdA = mikapperiya pAnai.

ivaRRilirun-thu "aNdam" "aNdA" enRa soRkaLukkup "periya" ennum poruL/poruLum uLLathu enpathu therikiRathu.
miku perumaiyaik kuRikkum pirammANdam enRa sol amain-thathu evvARu?


perum aNdam > perumaNdam > pirammANdam!!

ithu pin piramma+aNdam enRu piRaza uNarappaddathu enalAm.

pirammA enpathum piRa, para enpavaRRuL onRilirun-thO allathu "perumAn" enRa sollin vadamozith thiripAkavO karuthaththakkathu. ithupaRRi mElE kURappadduLLathu.

pEraNdam enRu koLLAmal "perum aNdam" enRu (varumoziyil uyir muthalAka van-thavidaththum) uruvAkkam seyvathu, pEssu vazakkil "perum" enpathu payanpeRum vakai karuthi.[/tscii:f389ae0341]

"brammaandam" is wrong or sanskritised pronunciation.

[viggop]

What is difference between word "poi" and "Pulugu"
Is there any other word in Tamil denoting "lie"?

[aravindhan]

What is difference between word "poi" and "Pulugu"
Is there any other word in Tamil denoting "lie"?
There is a slight difference in their usage. "puLuku" has the connotation of a shameless, bare-faced lie and is therefore a little more perjorative than "poy".

There are a number of dialectual words meaning "lie" used in some parts of TN which have slightly different connotations. Words used in villages in the Thanjavur area include "puraLi" which specifically means deliberately decietful lies to cause trouble, "poccam" which carries a strong sense of moral repugnancy, and so on. And, of course, every dialect has its own repertoire of colloquial expressions used figuratively to mean lie. In my family, for example, we use phrases like "muzam pODarAn", "noNTi ADarAn", and so on.

[bis_mala]

There are quite a lot of words/expressions in Tamil language for the word lie! I am not able to collect all for you. Hence the following is not exhaustive. Secondly please note that some of the words given here may have other meanings as well, for example, the word aRRam. There may also be words which are hybrid or considered so generally (mixture of Tamil with other language). e.g.AkAcapajncAgkam.

poy and puLugu came from the same root word, but in usage, appear to have different connotations. poy is lie, (generally). "pulugu" is more on the side of lie that is harmless, spoken for the purpose of fun, boasting, surprise, esteem, tricking, trap etc (others you can imagine). One who regularly lies in this manner is known as puLugan or puLugiNi. But not everyone knows the subtle differences in these words and hence they may be used interchangeably.

Here are some for your to digest.



1 acAkacam
2 AkAcapajncAgkam * stupendous lie, as an almanac written in the air
3 Akatam
4 amAntam
5 aRRam
6 cannivEcam
7 coRpuraTTu
8 curi-ttal . to circumvent, accomplish by trickery
9 cuttappoy downright lie
10 illatan2apAvam * total negation, as in 'there is no lie in the mouths of great ones'
11 illAtapoy downright lie, utter falsehood
12 immi lie;
13 kaimmai lie
14 kaLLaccol 1. lie, falsehood; 2. pretence, pretext
15 kaLLam
16 kappi lie, bare-faced falsehood
17 kappuviTu-tal to lie, utter falsehood
18 kara-ttal to conceal, hide, disguise;
19 karaTiviTu-tal to disseminate a lie
20 kaRpitam 1. that which is invented, artificual; 2. fancy, imagination; 3. lie, fabrication
21 katai 1. a long story, anecdote, or narrative; 2. epic; 3. perun3katai , the story of utayan2an6; 4. fabrication, falsehood, lie; 5. romance; 6. fable; apologue; fiction; 7. message, communication; 8. manner; 9. talk, conversation, chit-chat
22 kazuttal lie
23 kirAntu-tal lie in concealment;
24 kiRi 1. falsehood, lie; 2. stratagem, article; 3. deceit, fraud, playful mischief, practical joke
25 kiruttimam 1. that which is artificial; 2. falsehood lie, fraud; 3. a class of demons
26 kimarimUttal 1. slander; 2. exposure of secrets; 3. falsehood lie
27 cazakku
28 caLam

When you have something that you can give and you decide to hide or not to give it away and tell a lie, this is known as "karavu". KaravuLLa uLLam urugum (kuRaL). Also note "poy" can also be negatively expressed as: "uNmaiyinmai" or "meyyazivu" or something. It all depends who is the user and how able she is in playing with words.

[aravindhan]

poy and puLugu came from the same root word, but in usage, appear to have different connotations. poy is lie, (generally). "pulugu" is more on the side of lie that is harmless, spoken for the purpose of fun, boasting, surprise, esteem, tricking, trap etc (others you can imagine).
This is true of modern usage, of course, but I would have said that "puLugu" was originally the stronger word.

[Azhahan]

Is puLugu Tamil?

In German Luege or Lug (poetical) means lie.

[bis_mala]

Aravindan wrote:


This is true of modern usage, of course, but I would have said that "puLugu" was originally the stronger word.

I had taken some time to draft my response to viggop independently and without view of anything contained in your (last ) post. I had posted it without any amendment as I drafted.
As further elaboration by me on the usage and meaning of the word would bring me outside the topic of this thread, I wld leave it as it is!! But this does not mean that I am trying to limit anyone here from delving into the 'ancient" usage of the word. By all means do so if you think it is relevant and if you have the materials..

Azhahan wrote:

Is puLugu Tamil?

Yes it is!! Thank you for pointing out a similar-sounding word in Ger.

[bis_mala]

pul > punmai (pul+mai, suffix). baseness.

pul - pullaRivu - pullaRivANmai.
pul> pulai > pulaiyan. ( one of low status)

pul > pol > poy, 1. falsehood, lie. 2. hole. (and other meanings).
pul > pol > poL > poLLal : a hole in a tree.
pul > pol > poL > poLLamaNi (unbored precious stone).
pul > pol > ponthu : a hole. (pol+thu(suffix) = ponthu. not ponRu. see: man+thiRam = manthiram, not manRiRam )
pul > puL > puzai, 1 hole. (aalappuzai )
pul > puL > puzu, something that liives in holes or grows in closed surroundings, a worm.
pul > puL > puLugu (puL+ (u) + ku ), a lie.
pul > pullaanguzal. (a 'holed' instrument )
pul > puL (that which comes out from an egg (concept of closed surrounding again) ) - a bird.

The root here is "pul" which means a hole, a closed place or something base(derived meaning).

I do not wish to go extensively into this. The above examples suffice to show that poy and puLugu are actually "statements with holes" and that was how the ancient Tamils considered them when deriving their words!!

pul > pulai (something base) > (pu)lai > lie (English)!!!
puLugu > luege or lug (german).

Nothing surprising. More often, you have to behead a Tamil/Dr word to get the Indo-European!!

[viggop]

I want to know the origin of "Vimal"/Vimala/Nirmala/Nirmal/Shymala"

It means pure in sanskrit.
"Mala" means impure.Does this come from the Tamil word "malam" meaning impurity?

Dikshitar priases Goddess in his evergreen Kriti "akhilandeshwari rakshamam" as
"nikhila lOka nityAtmikE vimalE nirmalE shyAmalE sakalakalE"

[viggop]

Listen to the song too!
http://www.musicindiaonline.com/p/x/mUp254P.Jt.As1NMvHdW/

[bis_mala]

I want to know the origin of "Vimal"/Vimala/Nirmala/Nirmal/Shymala"

It means pure in sanskrit.
"Mala" means impure.Does this come from the Tamil word "malam" meaning impurity?

------------------------------------------------

[tscii:4397472e1e]malar ÁÄ÷ (T) flower : > mala -malaa. -mal. -ÁÄ, -ÁÄ¡, -Áø, -ÁÇ¡
vizu malar (T) Å¢ØÁÄ÷ : excellent flower : > vimala Å¢ÁÄ¡, Å¢ÁÄ
niRa malar (T) ¿¢ÈÁÄ÷ splendid flower : > nirmala. niRam= oLi. ¿¢÷ÁÄ¡, ¿¢÷ÁÄõ.
chezu malar (T) ¦ºØÁÄ÷ : beautiful fresh flower : >shyamaLa. º¢Â¡ÁÇ¡
kazu malar (T) ¸ØÁÄ÷ - flower washed by water, lotus : > kamalaa. kamala, kamalam. ¸ÁÄ¡, ¸ÁÄ, ¸ÁÄõ, ¸Áø.

maalai Á¡¨Ä > maalaa Á¡Ä¡. (now spelt as mala ) not phoenetic spelling.

malam ÁÄõ - impurity ÁÄ ( also ÓõÁÄõ)

confusion arises in Skrt because malar : "r" was dropped by them and then word is permitted thereby to confuse with mala meaning impurity which also dropped the -m.

In Tamil, no confusion!!

also: maalikaa (skrt) from T: maalai. (raagamaaliha)

maaliha > malihaa (girl's name in Malay).[/tscii:4397472e1e]

[viggop]

In sanskrit, sandhya means twilight or evening.A junction between afternoon & evening etc.

Did this come from Tamil word "Santhippu"(meaning a meeting place or junction)

[bis_mala]

[tscii:ea4f20a965]¾Á¢ú ¦¿Êø º¢Ä¦º¡È¸Ç¢ø ÌȢġ¸¢Å¢Îõ.
Tamil long vowels in some words become shortened The word saar in Tamil means to reach, to lean over, join. Another form of the same word saar is sEr.

This word "santhiya" is in fact corrupted or forged from "saarnthiyai" (T).

saarnthiyai > santhiyai > santhiyaa. (long vowel shortened and "r" dropped. (i) changed to "a" as word-ending).
( iravum pakalum saarnthu iyayum kaalam).
saarnthu + iyai.

saarnthu is a participle of the word saar (sEr) meaning to join. Participles have been used in the course of word-building in Tamil. e.g.,

aNinthurai (preface) from aNinthu + urai (old word)
parnthurai (recommendation) from parinthu+ urai. (modern word).

saayum + kaalam > saayumkaalam > saayngaalam. (kathiravan saayum kaalam).


saarnthiyai > santhiya then means the time when afternoon and night became mixed.[/tscii:ea4f20a965]

sandhya in Sanskrit : n. (fr. SaNDha} the state of being a eunuch , impotence. Not same.

[Azhahan]

Viggop,

how many words still remain in Sanskrit to be explained? You must be done sooner or later. Why don't you take the word for Water? But to start with which one out of the 70 is your problem I guess.

[Azhahan]

Mala,

a while ago you explained the name Rama= Iraaman with "ir" in Tamil is darkness.

Is it the same with IraavaNan? Somebody of darkness?

If what I guess is right then the whole RaamaayaNam is nothing else than a descrption of the flora, fauna and geography similar to those myths of the ancient greek like the Helena, The Jason and the argonauts.

[F.S.Gandhi vandayar]

Yes. Eravanan has root in 'Er'. Eravu + Vannan = Eraavanan. Means black colour.

f.s.gandhi

[bis_mala]

Mala,

Is it the same with IraavaNan? Somebody of darkness?


and FSG has given you the answer!!


Further:

Ratha or Radha was also a dark girl. The root is also ir = black. Iraathai> Iraathaa > Radha. from Tamil root.

According to P.C. Sarkar whom I read some time back, Radha was a duetero-mongoloid, "yellowish dark". or brown like a Malay, Filipino etc of the SEAsia region. It seems the migration of this kind of people took place in prehistoric times from island of Formosa (now Taiwan) to the Malay Archipelago and then to India. The dark colour may have resulted from some mixture with the Negritos. So, she was probably of Polynesian ( a resultant stock ) descent.

It has been said by other writers here before that Krishnan is from the root "karu" (T). Karu (T) to Kru in Northern adaptation. cf : the term krishNapaksham opp. of Sukkilapaksham. Krishnapaksham is actually the "dark side" of the moon. That confirms the etymology and meaning.

Some more:

The imaginary planet "Raagu". Meaning: black serpent. Also from Tamil root: ir = dark. ir > iraa > iraagu > raagu. ( raagu is northern adaptation.)

[bis_mala]

Viggop,

how many words still remain in Sanskrit to be explained? You must be done sooner or later. Why don't you take the word for Water? But to start with which one out of the 70 is your problem I guess.

If we were to carry on researching on Tamil roots of Skrt words, there are about 60,000 or more and of the remaining, about 50% can be hortly disputed as from Tamil too. This is from about 170000 or more (total). Like Latin, Greek and Hebrew, Skrt is an invented language. Usually a dialect is taken and using it as a base, words are taken from all directions of the earth and a new language is forged.

Skrt is not a "dead" language in the sense that it had naturally grown and existed and then died. It was invented. So it is more like doll, which was made. It does not "die".

There are lot more and hopefully others may come forward.

[viggop]

Is the word "Dharma" from Tamil?

[F.S.Gandhi vandayar]

'dharma' is from root tamil verbial root 'Tharu' which means 'give'.

Tharu- Maram (Tree)-Which gives some benefits to the society.

Tharuvaai- provided with Appropriate period

Tharppanam- giving ritual practices

Tharuni-young woman who gives pleasure

Tharani-earth which gives all natural benefits

Thaaraalam- Giving things with generosity

Thaarai- giving water through hole

Thaar- Bunch of bananaas provided with banyan tree

The above are some of the words from this root.

In Kamba Ramaayanam 'Tharu vanam' is there to specify forest with trees.

'Tharumai / Tharumam turned 'Dharma' in Sanskrit like Marumai / marumam turned marmam.

f.s.gandhi

[viggop]

WHat about the word "Guhan" (living in caves) for Murugan
Also, "Skantha"
Are these words from Tamizh

[bis_mala]

[tscii:91eff1cf0f]"«Ã¢ÂÐ §¸ð¸¢ý ±Ã¢¾Åú §Å§Ä¡ö!"
¦ºù§Åû!!

This deity was originally red in colour and burning fire is also red.

kan > kanal.
kan > kanal > kanaluthal. (burning).
kan > kanalal (burning).

kan + thu(suffix) + an (masculine suffix) = kanthan.

Kanthan was later introduced to North India by the Tamil devotees. Then:

kanthan > skanda.
kanthan > iskandar (in Malay and Indonesian). Now a name of many a Malay and Indonesian.

Skanda a South Indian deity.

kukai > kudai > kuzai.
The root is kuL.

Examine: paL - depression in the ground.
paL > paLLam - depression in the ground.
paL > padukai. depression in the ground.
So, paL can change to padu.
paL also can change to paku. (to split, to divide). paku+ ai = pakai.

Is the rule of change clear? Words change in similar pattern in Tamil.

kuL > kukai ; kuL > kudai , (also kudam, kudavu(kukai). kuL > kuzi > kuzal >kuzaai.

Now we tabulate:

kuL >(kuku)*> kukai like paL >( paku)* pakai
kuL > (kudu)* > kudai like paL > (padu)* >padukai. (kudu) > kudavu. also kudaivu.
kuL > kuttai ; kuL > kudu > kudam.
kuL > (kuku)*> kukan ( person of the cave or kudavu).
kuL >( kuku )> kukam (kuham) a cavern.
kuku - a tubular vessel of the body.

kuhan (kukan) was a name applied to Kanthan,
kudavu = a dance of kanthan.
kudagu malai is a malai with a lot of kudavu or caves.

There are too many derived words in this area from the great root word kuL.
Many millenia must have gone by for the words to undergo such multiple changes.

Modern languages do not show such multiple changes and acceptance(joining) of suffixes.[/tscii:91eff1cf0f]

[bis_mala]

[tscii:e1598ce80e]þô§À¡Ð «ì¸¢ÃÁõ ±ýÈ ¦º¡ø¨Äô À¡÷ô§À¡õ.

þÐ ÓýÒ «+ ¸¢ÃÁõ ±ýÚ À¢Ã¢ì¸ôÀðÎô ¦À¡Õû ¯¨Ãì¸ôÀð¼ ¦º¡øÄ¡Ìõ.

¸¢ÃÁõ ±ýÈ¡ø "Ó¨È". « ±ýÈ Óý¦É¡ðÎ «øÄ¡¾Ð ±ýÈ ¦À¡ÕûÀÎÅÐ ±ýÚ ÜÈôÀÎõ.

§ÀîÍÅÆ츢ø þÐ «ìÌÚÁõ ±ýÚ ¯îºÃ¢ì¸ôÀθ¢ÈÐ - ¸øÅ¢ «È¢× ºüÚ Ì¨Èó¾ ¿ýÁì¸Ç¡ø.

´Õ ¦º¡øÄ¢ý þÃñ¼¡õ ±ØòÐ "¸" Å¡¸ þÕó¾¡ø, «Ð ¾¢Ã¢À¨¼¾ø ¯ñÎ ±ýÀÐ ÓýÒ Å¢Çì¸ôÀð¼Ð.

º¸ì¸Çò¾¢ > ºì¸Çò¾¢ ±ýÈ ¦º¡ø¨Ä §¿¡ì¸¢É¡ø þÐ ÒâÔõ.

¬¸§Å:

«¸ì ÌÚÁõ ±ýÈ ¦º¡ø «ìÌÚÁõ ±ýÈ¡¸Ä¡õ.

ÌÚ(õ)+«õ = ÌÚÁõ. ÌÚ¸¢Â ÁÉò¾¡ø þ¨Æì¸ôÀÎõ Ó¨ÈÂüÈ ¦ºÂø.

«¸(õ) + ÌÚ (õ) +«õ = «¸ìÌÚÁõ > «ì¸¢ÃÁõ.

¬¸§Å, «+ ¸¢ÃÁõ ±ýÚ ¾ÅÈ¡¸ô À¢Ã¢òÐ «¾ý ãÄõ ¸¢ÃÁõ ±ýÈ ´Õ Ò¾¢Â ¦º¡ø¨Ä ¯Õš츢Ţð¼É÷.

þôÀÊò ¾ÅÈ¡¸ô À¢Ã¢òÐò¾¡ý, " ¸¢ýÚ" ±ýÈ þ¨¼¿¢¨Ä ¾Á¢Æ¢ø ¿ýëÄ¢ø ÜÈôÀð¼Ð. þýÚ > ¸¢ýÚ.

«ìÌÚÁõ ±ýÀÐ «¸ò¾¢ý ÌÚ了Âø.


ippOthu akkiramam enRa sollaip pArppOm.

ithu munpu a+ kiramam enRu pirikkappaddup poruL uraikkappadda sollAkum.

kiramam enRAl "muRai". a enRa munnoddu allAthathu enRa poruLpaduvathu enRu kURappadum.

pEssuvazakkil ithu akkuRumam enRu ussarikkappadukiRathu - kalvi aRivu saRRu kuRain-tha n-anmakkaLAl.

oru sollin iraNdAm ezuththu "ka" vAka irun-thAl, athu thiripadaithal uNdu enpathu munpu viLakkappaddathu.

sakakkaLaththi > sakkaLaththi enRa sollai n-OkkinAl ithu puriyum.

AkavE:

akak kuRumam enRa sol akkuRumam enRAkalAm.

kuRu(m)+am = kuRumam. kuRukiya manaththAl izaikkappadum muRaiyaRRa seyal.

aka(m) + kuRu (m) +am = akakkuRumam > akkiramam.

AkavE, a+ kiramam enRu thavaRAkap piriththu athan mUlam kiramam enRa oru puthiya sollai uruvAkkividdanar.

ippadith thavaRAkap piriththuththAn, " kinRu" enRa idain-ilai thamizil n-annUlil kURappaddathu. inRu > kinRu.


[/tscii:e1598ce80e]

[bis_mala]

[tscii:aa93ceafbe]Àâò¾ø ±ýÀ¾üÌô ÀÄ ¦À¡ÕÙñÎ. þÅüÚû À¡Ð¸¡ò¾ø ( to be cherished ) ±ýÀÐõ ´Õ ¦À¡ÕÇ¡Ìõ.

¬Àýõ ±ýÀÐ À¡Ð¸¡òÐ «½¢Å¾üÌâ ¦À¡Õ¨Çì ÌȢ츢ÈÐ. þ¾¢ø «¼í¸¢ÔûÇ ãÄî ¦º¡ü¸¨Çì ¸¡ñ§À¡õ.

¬+Àâ+«½¢+«õ = ¬+À÷(+þ) +«ñ(+þ) +«õ = ¬Àýõ.

¦º¡øÄ¡ì¸ò¾¢ø Àâ ±ýÀ¾¢ÖûÇ þ¸ÃÓõ «½¢ ±ýÀ¾¢Ä¢ÕìÌõ þ¸ÃÓõ ¦¸ð¼É (Á¨Èó¾É). ãÄ §Å÷¸§Ç ÀÂýÀÎò¾ôÀðÎûÇÉ.

þ¾ý ¦À¡Õû: À¡Ð¸¡òÐ «½¢Å¾üÌ ¬Ìõ ¦À¡Õû.
"¬Ìõ ¦À¡Õû" ±ýÀÐ §¾¡ýÈ "¬" Óý¦É¡ð¼¡ÉÐ.(prefix)[/tscii:aa93ceafbe]

Words in "a" meaning ornaments or something connected with ornaments in Sanskrit:
1 AhAryazobhA
2 alaMzAstra
3 Anaddha .
4 analaMkariSNu
5 apanI 7.
6 Ayudha
7 AziJjita.

[bis_mala]

[tscii:536de10eea]cankarAbaraNam: (µ÷ þá¸õ).

ºí¸Ã¡Àýõ ±ýÀÐ ºí¸÷ + ¬Àýõ ±ýÚ À¢Ã¢ì¸ò ¾Ì¦ÁýÀ÷.

ÀÃÁº¢Åý ¸Øò¾¢ø þÕôÀÐ À¡õÒ ¬¨¸Â¡ø: ºí¸Ã¡Àýõ ±ýÀÐ ¿¡¸ò¨¾ì ÌÈ¢ò¾Ð. «Å÷ ÁüÈ ¦À¡Õû¸¨ÇÔõ «½¢ó¾¢ÕôÀ¾¡¸ì ÜÈôÀð¼¡Öõ (±ÎòÐ측𼡸: §¾¡Ä¡¨¼, ¸í¨¸ ), þíÌ ¬Àý¦ÁÉôÀð¼Ð ¿¡¸ò¨¾§Â ÌÈ¢ò¾Ð.

þùŢá¸ò¾¢ý º¢Ä ÀÂýÀ¡Î¸û ¿¡¸ò¾¢ý º£üÈò¨¾¦Â¡ò¾¢ÕôÀ¾É¡ø, ÁüÚõ À¼¦ÁÎò¾ ¿¡¸õ «í¹Éõ º£üÈòмý ¾¢ÕõÒÅЧÀ¡ÖÁ¢ÕôÀ¾É¡ø, «ô¦ÀÂ÷ ¦ÀüȾ¡¸ þ¨ºÂ¡º¢Ã¢Â÷ ÜÚÅ÷.

«Ð ¿¢ü¸, þ·Ð ¿¡¸¾£Àò¾¢Ä¢Õó¾ ¿¡¸÷¸Ç¡ø Á¡¨Ä §Å¨Ç¸Ç¢ø À¡¼ôÀð¼ À¨Æ þḦÁýÚ §¾¡ýÚ¸¢ÈÐ. ¾Á¢Æ¢¨ºÂ¢ø þÐ ÀÆõÀïÍÃõ ±ÉôÀð¼Ð. þáŽý (<þ÷>þÕû, ¬¸§Å ¸ÚôÒ ¿¢Èò¾¢Éý ±ýÀÐ ÓýÒ ÜÈôÀð¼Ð) þ¨º ÅøÖ¿ý ±ýÚõ À¡Êî º¢ÅÉÕû ¦ÀüÈ¡ý ±ýÚõ þýÚ Å¨Ã ÜÈôÀΞ¡ø, ¿¡¸¾£Àò¾¢ø þ¨º ÑðÀÁȢ󧾡÷ Àø¸¢ þÕó¾É÷ ±ýÀÐ ¯½ÃôÀÎõ. À¡½÷ ±ÉôÀð¼¡Õõ «Å§Ã¡õ. º¢ÅÅÆ¢À¡Î «íÌ º¢Èó¾¢Õó¾Ð.

þá¸õ ±ýÀÐ, Óý «Ã¡¸õ ±ýÚ þÕó¾Ð.

«÷ ±ýÀÐ ´Ä¢. (§ÅÚ ¦À¡Õû¸Ùõ ¯Ç).

«÷ > «ÃüÚ
«÷ > «ÃðÎ
«÷ > «÷îº¨É («÷+Í+«¨É). «¨É - suffix.
«÷+¬Ì+«õ = «Ã¡¸õ > á¸õ > þá¸õ.

ÁüÈ ´Ä¢ò¦¾¡¼÷Ò¨¼Â ¦º¡ü¸û:

«÷ > «Õì̾ø = À¡Ã¡ðξø.
«÷ > ¬÷ > ¬÷ôÀâò¾ø.
«÷ > ¬Ã¡§Ã¡ ¬Ãâ§Ã¡ (¾Ä¡ðÎ)

compare: (to show loss of the first letter )

«Ãò¾õ> Ãò¾õ > þÃò¾õ.
¿¢ÃõÀ > ¦Ã¡õÀ.
«Ãºý > áºý > ს.
«¨ÃÂý > áÂý > áö. ...... þýÉ À¢È.


«Ã¡¸õ ±ýÀÐ ¸Ä¢ôÀ¡Å¢ý ¯ÚôÒ ±ýÛõ ¦À¡ÕÇ¢Öõ, ¡ú Á£ðÎõ ¾¢Èý ±ýÛõ ¦À¡ÕÇ¢Öõ þýÚŨà ¿¢¨ÄòÐûǨ¾ §¿¡ì¸¢, ḦÁýÀÐõ «í¸¢ÕóÐ ¦ÀÈôÀ𼧾 ±ýÀ¨¾ ±Ç¢¾¢ø «È¢ÂÄ¡õ. º¢Ä ¦À¡Õû¸Ç¢ø ÅÆíÌõ ´Õ ¦º¡ø, «ÅüÈ¢ø ´Õ ¦À¡ÕÇ¢ø ¾¢Ã¢À¨¼Å¦¾ýÀÐ ¦Á¡Æ¢ þÂøÒ.

[/tscii:536de10eea]

[viggop]

Malaji
The raga for snake is supposed to be "PunnagaVaraLi"
You can hear Pambatti Siddhar's padal rendered by Sudha Ragunathan here(PunnagaVaraLi)
http://www.musicindiaonline.com/p/x/jqK2UyTy79.As1NMvHdW/

An alapana in Shankarabharanam by MS is always great.
Here it here
http://www.musicindiaonline.com/p/x/D4K20FEFf9.As1NMvHdW/
Shyama Sastri's "Saroja dala Nethri"

:-)

[bis_mala]

[tscii:ef8c841b08]Dear viggopji, thank you for surfacing it.

ÅáǢ < ÅÕ + ¬û + þ.

It means a raaga that causes something or somebody to appear in the presence of the person who makes the entreaty. ¬û here emphasizes the management of that appearance or coming. It may also be a comparison, as in Ìó¾ÄÅáǢ; Üó¾ø > Ìó¾ø > Ìó¾Äõ. (shortening of the first letter, which I have already mentioned in earlier posts.).

ÒýÉ¡¸ÅáǢ is one of the ragas which have the snake connection. It carries the naaga name openly whereas in ºí¸Ã¡Àýõ, naagam is referred indirectly or subtly.

Òý + ¿¡¸(õ)+ ÅáǢ.

Òý = venomous. ¦¸¡ÊÂ.

What about naagananthini raaga: this name also openly concerns the snake!

Those who worshipped snakes were called "naagar" in Tamil. Naagathiipam refers to the Jaafna Peninsula. The naaga raagas could have originated from there and the presence of the naaga word or reference may be an indication.

Note: "vaanamengkE, buumi engkE, vaazvu thaazvengE" song in Ambikapathi sung by TM Sounderaraajan and P Banumathi is punnaagavaraaLi, right?
"maanasa sanjararE" by Thygaraaja Swami too!!
[/tscii:ef8c841b08]

[viggop]

Malaji
There are many ragas associated with name "naaga".i think i heard about NaagaGandhari?

"Manasa Sancharare" is raga Saama and it is by "sadashiva brahmendra"(not thygarajar)

[viggop]

Lyrics here
http://www.karnatik.com/c1059.shtml

[bis_mala]

Malaji
There are many ragas associated with name "naaga".i think i heard about NaagaGandhari?

"Manasa Sancharare" is raga Saama and it is by "sadashiva brahmendra"(not thygarajar)

viggopji

Pl recheck on Maanasa SanjararE. During our music lessons, we sang in PunnaagavaraaLi and my notes say this was by Thiyaga swami. Are you able to check with the Kiirththanai book. of Thiyagaiar?

Some websites may not be accurate.

[rajraj]

Mala: Maanasa sancharare,in Shyama, is by Sadhasiva Brahmendrar,not Thyagaraja.

http://www.musicindiaonline.com/l/1/s/ragam.47/

[bis_mala]

Raj, can U pl check with the anthology of Thiyagaraaja SwamigaL.
Is it not there?

I cannot rely on websites because recently I read in a website that the epic MaNimEkalai was by iLangO which is wrong.

I do not have the book with me here in office.

[rajraj]

Mala: I have the two volumes of Thyagaraja's compositions by Rangaramanuja Ayyangar and also the one by Parthasarathi.
The song you are referring to is
'maanasa sancharare raame
varamuni bhaktha loka.......' is in PunnaagavaraLi. Not a very popular composition. When people say 'maanasa sancharare' it is usually the composition by Sadasiva Brahmendrar. It goes like:

maanasa sancharare brahmaNi maanasa sancharare
sri ramNi kucha dhurga vihaare.......

The confusion is due to the popularity of the Sadasive Brahmendrar composition in Shyaama. :)

[bis_mala]

Raj, thanks a lot!

[bis_mala]

[tscii:31970467f1]þô§À¡Ð ¯À¡Âõ ±ýÈ ¦º¡ø¨Äô À¡÷ô§À¡õ.

¯ ±ýÀÐ Óý ¿¢üÀÐ ±ýÈ ¦À¡ÕÙ¨¼ÂÐ ±ýÀ¨¾ì ÜÈ¢§Éý.

¯ò¾Ãõ ¯ò¾Ã× Ó¾Ä¢Â ¦º¡ü¸¨Çì Óý þΨ¸ôÀÎò¾¢Â¢Õ츢§Èý. ¬¸§Å ¦¿È¢Ó¨È¸¨Ç «íÌ ¸ñΦ¸¡ûÇÄ¡õ.

¯ + Ò + ¬ + «õ.

þ¾¢ø Ò - Ţ̾¢. ¬ (Å¢¨É¡ø). «õ = Ţ̾¢.

¯ò¾¢ ±ýÀÐ ¯ +¾¢ (Ţ̾¢) ±ýÚ ²üÀð¼Ð§À¡Ä.

þô§À¡Ð ¿£í¸û ´Õ §¸ûÅ¢ §¸ð¸ §ÅñÎõ. ¯ + Ò ±ýÀ¨¾î §º÷ìÌõ§À¡Ð ²ý ¯ôÒ ±ýÚ ÅáÁø ¯Ò (¯À¡Âõ) ±ýÚ Åó¾Ð? ±ýÚ!. þ¾ÈÌ ÁÃÒ, ´Æ¢Ò, ±ýÈ ¦º¡øĨÁôÒ¸¨Çì ¸ñÎ ¦¾Ç¢×¦ÀȧÅñÎõ.

¬Âõ ±ýÈ þÚ¾¢î¦º¡ø ¬+ ö+ «õ ±ýÚ Ò¨É×üÚ, «¨Áó¾Ð. "ö" ±ýÀÐ ¯¼õÀΦÁö. (¬¸¡! ¯¼ý+ÀÎ+¦Áö ±ýÀÐ ²ý ¯¼ýÀΦÁö ±ýÈ¢øÄ¡ÁÖõ, ¯¼üÀΦÁö ±ýÈ¢øÄ¡ÁÖõ "õ" Åó¾Ð ±ýÚ §¸ð¸Ä¡õ. ¦º¡øÄ¡ì¸ò¾¢ø ҽâÂø þÄ츽õ µÃÇ×째 ÀÂýÀθ¢ÈÐ. ÓØÅÐõ À¢ýÀüÈôÀΞ¢ø¨Ä. «¾É¡ø¾¡ý Á¸+¸û ±ýÀÐ Á¸ì¸û ±ýÚ ÅáÁø Áì¸û ±ýÚ¾¡ý ÅÕõ, ¦º¡øÄ¡ì¸ò¾¢§Ä! §Á + ÀÎ ±ýÀÐ §ÁõÀÎ ±ýÚ ÅÕõ, ¦ÁÄ¢ò¾Ä¡¸. §Á + ÀÊ¡ý = §ÁôÀÊ¡ý ±ýÚ ÅÕõ, §Àø.
«·¾ýÈ¢Ôõ, ¦¾¡øÀÆí¸¡Äò¾¢ø ¯¼ý ±ýÀ¾ý ÁÚÅÊÅÁ¡¸ ¯¼õ ±ýÀÐ þÕó¾¢Õì¸Ä¡õ. «Èõ - «Èý §À¡Ä!! ¯¼õ ±ýÚ ¦ºöÔÇ¢ø Åó¾ÅÆ¢ì ¸ñΦ¸¡ûÇ×õ. )

¯À¡Âõ ±ýÈ ¦º¡øÄ¢ø ¯ûÇ §Å÷¸û, ¾Á¢ØìÌâ¨Å.[/tscii:31970467f1]

[Idiappam]

[tscii:429206523a]'«ó¾¡¾¢' ¾Á¢Æ¡ ż¡øÄ¡?[/tscii:429206523a]

[bis_mala]

[tscii:dc570159ae]«ó¾¡¾¢ ±ýÀÐõ ¾Á¢úãÄí¸Ù¨¼Â ¦º¡ø¾¡ý.

«ý > «ýÚ = ÓÊóÐŢ𼠿¡û «øÄÐ ¸¡Äõ.
«ý > «ñ > «¨½ > «¨½ò¾ø = ¾£ ӾĢÂÅü¨È ÓÊ×ìÌì ¦¸¡ñÎÅÕ¾ø.
«ý > «ýÚ > «ýÚ¾ø = Á¡ÚÀ¼ø, ¦¸Î¾ø (Óʾø, þøÄ¡Áġ̾ø).

«ý > «ý+Ð > «óÐ= Óʾø or «ýÚ > «óÐ > «ó¾õ.
«óÐ - ´ÕŨ¸ô â. (ÁÃõ, ¸Î¾¡º¢ ӾĢÂÅü¨È «Æ¢ôÀÐ)

¬¾¢: see thirukkuRaL thread, my post a few days ago on aathipakavan.

«ó¾õ+¬¾¢ = «ó¾+ ¬¾¢ = «ó¾¡¾¢. (´Õ «Ê¢ý ÓÊ× «Îò¾ «Ê¢ý ¦¾¡¼ì¸Á¡¸ò ¦¾¡ÎìÌõ ¦ºöÔû.

Consider changes between Dravidian languages:

±ýÚ > ±ýÛ (Á¨Ä¡Çõ).
±ýÉ > ±óÐ.
ÅóÐ > ÅýÛ.
¾ó¨¾ > ¾ñÈ¢ (¦¾ÖíÌ).
«ñ½ý > «ýÉ (¦¾)
«ýÚ > «ýÛ (§ÀîÍò ¾Á¢ú)
ÀýÉ¢ÃñÎ > Àó¾¢ÃñÎ (Á¨Ä)
«ñÊÃý > ¬ó¾¢Ãõ (by researchers).

You should be able to find from the above the change: ýÚ > ýÛ > óÐ. is common.[/tscii:dc570159ae]

[harishkumar09]

A place for all South Indians to meet

www.dravidanadu.com

[shoyonika]

Hi,
Just gone through some pages and want to correct some mistakes here.

Firstly, Samskrith is, without any arguements, is the oldest refined language in the world. This is the universal truth.

Samskrith is the purest language completely evolved on its own, without any help from any other language. So, this proves(though no need to) no words or roots from other languages let alone tamil, have been used in Samskrith.

As far as Sri Max Mueller and his works are concerned, he worked on ancient works like Vedas and Puranas whose time precedes Silappadikaram and Manimekhalai by more than 3000 years.

Moreover Samskrith itself means refined, which proves that it is much more classical than tamil which is so crude that it does not even have separate consonants that makes it very difficult to express words whereas Samskrith can represent any word in any manner.

Samskrith has the richest vocabulary free from other influences unlike tamil which is directly influenced by the Samskrith and dravidian vocabulary. One thing more, for the kindest information for some know-it-alls, please do clarify your doubts through reference books and magazines from Archaeological department.

Before heightening your language, do not condemn other languages as it will show how insecured you are about your language and culture.

Lastly post any queries regarding this subject and ill clear all the misconception(which people here have a lot) then and there itself.

[mms]

Dear Friend,
Your View that Samskrit is pure and developed self is as much wrong as FSG aND bISMALA. RigVeda as per Professor Burrows who is the Editor of Dravidian Etymological Dictionary has around 10- 20 words.

Classical Sanskrit has burrowed much more.

Tamil uses nearly half the words burrowed from Sanskrit, Pali and Pragrit.
mms

[bis_mala]

Firstly, Samskrith is, without any arguements, is the oldest refined language in the world.

Please go about thinking logically about the Sanskrit language. The necessity for such a refined language arose only after the class of persons known as BrahmaNa were ordained for their priestly job all over India to spread their creed.

There is no evidence that any race or linguistic group in India spoke this language which is known as Sanskrit today as a home language at any time in history.

About one third of Sanskrit has very close linguistic relationship with the oldest Iranian dialect. Hence it is a foreign language which grew to "perfection" by devouring local pre-existing languages of Indian subcontinent.

[shoyonika]

Dear MMS,
As far as my views are concerned, do check Mr Burrow`s views once more because Samskrith has more forms than ever.
Firstly, there was never a categorization as classical and vedic Samskrith before in India, until under the influence of the european race. They separated(ofcourse we do not) Samskrith because they found LAET lakaar very difficult to understand.
Now coming to borrowed words, as against your thoughts,Samskrith is the root of all languages(chinese,japanese,korean and thai being no exception) including european ones.
So instead of recognizing Mr Burrow`s views, use your own
instincts and go through our own Indian Scholastic works where you can find not one or two but examples running through more than thousands that Samskrith is not a receiving but a gifting language.
How can you propose the views of a foreigner about Samskrith?
Confusions created by their ancestors about Aryans invading India from europe and Rgveda being written in second century bc are more than enough to prove their ever-demanding supremacy.
Aryans never invaded India as there was no need to as they were as Indians as you and me. And Vedas are timeless, might be written and preserved as a need might have rosen to do so due the incapable memory of humans in the later stages and that does not imply that vedas are from 2nd century bc( that would sound as funny as bismala talking sense :lol: just joking).
Lastly, YES, Samskrith is the purest language, and has not taken source from any language whether some believe it or not!
Good-luck everyone.
Bye.

[bis_mala]

So instead of recognizing Mr Burrow`s views, use your own
instincts and go through our own Indian Scholastic works

Yes use your own instincts. Putting aside all the scholarly views you will find that Samskrith was a language of the mantravathis , who came into subcontinent from Iran side. It came as a dialect from that area and further, was developed in the subcontinent to become a "refined language". It is pure in the sense they have washed it up.

Belief and devotion to a language is one thing; history and linguistics are another matter.

I am not saying it is not pure, Anything crude can be refined....Language is not an exception.

[shoyonika]

hi,
dialect means A regional or social variety of a language distinguished by pronunciation, grammar, or vocabulary, especially a variety of speech differing from the standard literary language or speech pattern of the culture in which it exists: Cockney is a dialect of English.
A variety of language that with other varieties constitutes a single language of which no single variety is standard: the dialects of Ancient Greek.
I now think there is no need to explain that Samskrith is no dialectic form of any language.
Now what did you say? belief and devotion and blah blah blah........
all that holds true even in your and gandhi`s(not mahatma gandhi)case.
If you two appraise your own language with such devotion and provenance, then why cant people who can prove their point much more than you praise the mother of all languages, that is Samskrith?

[thenRalkAththu]

If you two appraise your own language with such devotion and provenance, then why cant people who can prove their point much more than you praise the mother of all languages, that is Samskrith?

Simple! Because Sanskrit is not a mother language. It is a composed and refined script!

[bis_mala]

[tscii:2a7a338a68]


hi,
dialect means A regional or social variety of a language distinguished by pronunciation, grammar, or vocabulary, especially a variety of speech differing from the standard literary language or speech pattern of the culture in which it exists

As the nomad “mantravaathis” who entered Afghan area had a form of speech and no writing, it is not easy to accord the status of a “language” to their then speech. Thus they spoke a dialect or more than one dialect. This dialect (or dialects) then fused with local words of Northern Dravidian and Munda to become a liturgical language, which we call Rigkrit (Rig Veda language). This language was different from the other language which later developed and was called “Sanskrit” by the Ramayana period.. These were not actually “languages” in the real sense but are called languages merely by analogy with real spoken languages. About 1/3 of the lexical base of Sanskrit is traceable to ancient Iranian or other Indo-European.

Samskrith is not a real language. The ancient Iranian dialect (which fused with local elements and gave rise to the liturgical form) is now dead.


If you two appraise your own language with such devotion and provenance, then why cant people who can prove their point much more than you praise the mother of all languages, that is Samskrith?

By all means, sing praises of your Samskrith. We love to hear it!! Did I or FSG deny anyone such facility in this hub? Mother Sanskrit Theory was much in the news during the times of Maxie and Willie but we hear little of it today. After India became independent, the British were seemingly no longer enthusiastic to promote it any further. Some in India are still suffering from the hangover. The linguistic theory was then expected to pacify and retain India. Voltaire and other intellectuals of Europe also were interested in it to deprive the Church of its hold on Europe and the influence of the Jews

You are welcome to revitalise the theory but please produce the proof that Sanskrit is the mother of all world languages. A simple statement of claim or assumption is not good enough. We warmly welcome if you open a thread for that purpose. I do not think the moderators here will object.
[/tscii:2a7a338a68]

[shoyonika]

Simple! Because Sanskrit is not a mother language. It is a composed and refined script!
Samskrith needs no ones signature to become a mother language, but some languages have been made classical on protests and request from people of that particular language.
Refined language? yes ,composed language? no.
By the way Samskrith for your kind information, had changed scripts more than 3 times from its refinement from old Samskrith(not dravidian roots) the devanagari being the newest script!

[shoyonika]

[tscii:26fcd62c15]
As the nomad “mantravaathis” who entered Afghan area had a form of speech and no writing, it is not easy to accord the status of a “language” to their then speech. Thus they spoke a dialect or more than one dialect. This dialect (or dialects) then fused with local words of Northern Dravidian and Munda to become a liturgical language, which we call Rigkrit (Rig Veda language). This language was different from the other language which later developed and was called “Sanskrit” by the Ramayana period.. These were not actually “languages” in the real sense but are called languages merely by analogy with real spoken languages. About 1/3 of the lexical base of Sanskrit is traceable to ancient Iranian or other Indo-European.

1. no vEdic people entered BAratha(as India was called previously) from irani side as they were already present here.
2. Samskrith needs no categorization from any fools.
3. there was no language as a northern dravidian at all!
4. Samskrith at the time of Ramayana was different from previous Samskrith.
5. actually
About 1/3 of the lexical base of Sanskrit is traceable to ancient Iranian or other Indo-European this is the vice-versa of the truth[/tscii:26fcd62c15]




By all means, sing praises of your Samskrith. We love to hear it!!After India became independent, the British were seemingly no longer enthusiastic to promote it any further. Some in India are still suffering from the hangover. The linguistic theory was then expected to pacify and retain India. Voltaire and other intellectuals of Europe also were interested in it to deprive the Church of its hold on Europe and the influence of the Jews

not hangover, but love towards mother language.
facts are stranger than fiction but truth alone triumphs. Though of late, people will recover from the novel hangover that dravidian language is older to Samskrith

[kannannn]

Mala, it is futile arguing with people like shoyonika who don't want to believe the facts and are hell bent on thinking that there should be a cultural or linguistic binding factor for a nation to be united. shoyonika, sorry to burst your ego, but have you actually heard the gods speak in sanskrit? If you say it is just your belief, sorry again, but beliefs maketh not science.

[bis_mala]

Mala, it is futile arguing with people like shoyonika who don't want to believe the facts and are hell bent on thinking that there should be a cultural or linguistic binding factor for a nation to be united. shoyonika, sorry to burst your ego, but have you actually heard the gods speak in sanskrit? If you say it is just your belief, sorry again, but beliefs maketh not science.

Kannann, you are 100% right.
We have to write off such persons with peculiar unsubstantiated beliefs.

[viggop]

What is root of word "neivedhyam"? is it Tamil/Sanskrit?

[bis_mala]

[tscii:61a6baf63a]
nivedya to be communicated or related or presented or delivered n. an offering of food for an idol

Presently the word denotes offering of food to the deity.

It came from Tamil ¦¿ö+¨Åò¾ø. Originally ghee was either applied to or offered as food to deity.
Subsequently it also extemded to other food offered besides ¦¿ö.

¦¿ö¨ÅòÐ > ¿¢§Åò¾¢Â. (¦¿ö «øÄÐ ÁüÈ ¯½×¸û ¨ÅòÐ ÅÆ¢Àξø. )

Any worship is an attempt to communicate with the deity. Thus it further extended to communicating with the deity through offering etc.

¦Åñ¦½ö ¾¢ýÀÅý ¸ñ½ý ±ýÀ¨¾Ôõ ¸ÅÉ¢ì¸×õ.

( I have given this in a previous post but now could not find it)[/tscii:61a6baf63a]

[shoyonika]

Naivedhyam is a word very much Samskrith and not tamil as mentioned here. The root for this is `nived` , which means to offer, and the vigrah vakya(word formation) is `yam nivedayathi, tham naivedhyam`, which means that what is offered (to a deity or mane) is naivedhyam and not neivedhyam as explained here.

This info is based on Chakravarti Rajagopalachari`s Samskrith dictionary and Shabdaartha darpana of motilal banarsidas press.
If you want meanings of any Samskrith related words, do not hesitate.
bye.

[shoyonika]

Mala, it is futile arguing with people like shoyonika who don't want to believe the facts and are hell bent on thinking that there should be a cultural or linguistic binding factor for a nation to be united. shoyonika, sorry to burst your ego, but have you actually heard the gods speak in sanskrit? If you say it is just your belief, sorry again, but beliefs maketh not science.
Do not be sorry for I am not hurt or anything as I seldom care for such futile bid to make people believe in what is not right, so carry on.
But one thing in your quote is right that I am trying to unite all through a cultural and linguistic bond, which, in recent times seems to be disturbed by some anti-social elements. Now you dont feel bad but, I had to use that word.
Anyways I hardly care about such useless remarks.
have a good time. bye!

[kannannn]

But one thing in your quote is right that I am trying to unite all through a cultural and linguistic bond, which, in recent times seems to be disturbed by some anti-social elements.
Typical 'Sangh Parivar' mentality!! Anyone arguing against their beliefs is an anti-social or worse, anti-national. My point is simple. Why do we need a linguistic bond for unity? Can't we ackowledge the differences and still be united? Any nation built on the foundation of forced unity is doomed to failure. And you have still not answered my question: have you heard the gods speak in sanskrit?

[shoyonika]

And you have still not answered my question: have you heard the gods speak in sanskrit?
If this is what you want to know, then yes.
I have heard gods speaking, do you wish to hear too?
Believe in it and close your eyes meditating on god.
Then you yourself will hear gods speaking.
Trust me, trust yourself and try it with full heart and soul.

[stranger]

:rotfl:

I thought I heard Hebrew! :lol:

[pavalamani pragasam]

Or Greek & Latin!

[kannannn]

stranger, that's what I intended to say. :lol: On a more serious note, Shoyonika, you should start a thread on spirituality to discuss these things. What are you doing in this thread?

[indian224080]

:rotfl:

I thought I heard Hebrew! :lol:
Nevertheless i DID NOT hear Tamil. :o

[shoyonika]

I thought I heard Hebrew!
yes you will hear hebrew, greek and latin until you clean the wax in your ears very well :lol:

[shoyonika]

stranger, that's what I intended to say. On a more serious note, Shoyonika, you should start a thread on spirituality to discuss these things. What are you doing in this thread?

kya fayda?
just one bath in spirituality wont turn a crow into a crane.
You need to take some advice from your parents. They might be of some help to you.

[kannannn]

waise mujhe aapke posts se kuch fayda nahin dikaye deta. Why don't you answer any questions straight. I wrote, don't speak about spirituality here. And you are beating around the bush.

[stranger]

shoyonika!

This is a thamizh lietrature section!

What is meaning of your id in thamizh?

I hope you know how to read and write thamizh! :D

[kannannn]

stranger, by now you must have known that this person has no knowledge of either our culture or our language. He/she must have come here thinking: 'these hubbers seem to be easy prey for our hindutva preaching'. Alas, he/she is finding the going tough.

[shoyonika]

waise mujhe aapke posts se kuch fayda nahin dikaye deta. Why don't you answer any questions straight. I wrote, don't speak about spirituality here. And you are beating around the bush.

fayda nahin kya? dikaye deta? ?
dikaye deta nahin. dikhaayi detha :lol:

[shoyonika]

shoyonika!

This is a thamizh lietrature section!

What is meaning of your id in thamizh?

I hope you know how to read and write thamizh!
no I dont know the meanming of my id in tamil. Do you know that your id sounds english or do you say that your id too has a tamil root? :lol: As to my tamil knowledge is concerned, I am not saying that I am a great exponent in it, but can do most of the translation works if not with ease.

[shoyonika]

stranger, by now you must have known that this person has no knowledge of either our culture or our language. He/she must have come here thinking: 'these hubbers seem to be easy prey for our hindutva preaching'. Alas, he/she is finding the going tough. when people like you are here, nothing is tough. :wink:

[stranger]

Do you know that your id sounds english.

Sounds??? It is indeed an English word. :D

[kannannn]

dikaye deta nahin. dikhaayi detha :lol:
I am happy with my level of transliterating hindi in english. Answer my question: What are you doing here in the tamil literature section? Start another thread on spirituality if you want to discuss devabhhhhhhasa.

[stranger]

[tscii:7362e4d07c]¸ñ½ý!

þÅÕìÌ ¾Á¢ú §Àº ±Ø¾ ¦¾Ã¢Ô¦ÁýÚ ±ÉìÌõ §¾¡ýÈÅ¢ø¨Ä! [/tscii:7362e4d07c]

[kannannn]

[tscii:164f8a9f40]stranger, ±ÉìÌõ «·§¾ §¾¡ýÚ¸¢ÈÐ. ¸Ä¸õ ¦ºöžü¦¸ý§È þíÌ Ó¨Çò¾¢Õ츢ȡ÷.[/tscii:164f8a9f40]

[shoyonika]

I am happy with my level of transliterating hindi in english. Answer my question: What are you doing here in the tamil literature section? Start another thread on spirituality if you want to discuss devabhhhhhhasa.
you might be happy with your transliterating level, but people who want to attain perfection can do as they wish and they do not need your advice whether or not to start a thread.

[shoyonika]

Sounds??? It is indeed an English word.
then why dont you keep an id in tamil which you love so much?

[stranger]

[tscii:2419df3a4e]¯í¸ÙìÌ «¦¾øÄ¡õ ¦º¡ýÉ¡ø Òâ¡Ð!

«Ð Òâó¾¡ø ¿£í¸û ²ý ¾Á¢ú ¦¾Ã¢Â¡Áø ¾Á¢ú þÄ츢 À̾¢ìÌ ÅóÐ ¸Ä¸õ ¦ºö¸¢È£÷¸û :?:[/tscii:2419df3a4e]

[shoyonika]

[tscii:ae4cec8947]
¸ñ½ý!

þÅÕìÌ ¾Á¢ú §Àº ±Ø¾ ¦¾Ã¢Ô¦ÁýÚ ±ÉìÌõ §¾¡ýÈÅ¢ø¨Ä! and there is no need to know that either.[/tscii:ae4cec8947]

[stranger]

:rotfl:

[shoyonika]

[tscii:913137ac63]
¯í¸ÙìÌ «¦¾øÄ¡õ ¦º¡ýÉ¡ø Òâ¡Ð!

«Ð Òâó¾¡ø ¿£í¸û ²ý ¾Á¢ú ¦¾Ã¢Â¡Áø ¾Á¢ú þÄ츢 À̾¢ìÌ ÅóÐ ¸Ä¸õ ¦ºö¸¢È£÷¸û I am not here to create any kalahangal but to rectify mistakes prevalant here, and for heaven`s sake stop using honorifics and start calling me nee and not neengal.[/tscii:913137ac63]

[pavalamani pragasam]

:roll:

[stranger]

I am not here to create any kalahangal but to rectify mistakes prevalant here, and for heaven`s sake stop using honorifics and start calling me nee and not neengal.

[tscii:b1aa349335]±í¸ÙìÌ «È¢× ¦º¡øÄ¢ ±í¸¨Ç ¾¢Õò¾ Åó¾ ¯í¨Ç þó¾ «È¢Å£É ÌÆó¨¾ ±ôÀÊ ²¸ÅºÉò¾¢ø §ÀºÓÊÔõ :?:

±í¸¨ÇÅ¢¼ «È¢Å¢ø º¢Èó¾Å÷¸ÙìÌ Á⡨¾ ¦¸¡ÎôÀÐ ±í¸Ù¨¼Â ¾Á¢úô ÀñÀ¡Î! :D

±ýÛ¨¼Â ¨Á¦ÀÂ÷ ¬í¸¢Äò¾¢ø þÕôÀ¾üÌ ¸¡Ã½õ ¾Á¢ú ºõÁó¾ôÀ¼¡¾ ÀÄ ¾¢Ã¢¸ÙìÌõ ¦ºýÚ ÅÕÅÐ ±ý ÅÆì¸õ.

¾í¸û ¨Á¦ÀÂÕìÌ «÷ò¾õ ±ýɧš :?:[/tscii:b1aa349335]

[Ronnie The Dutch]

* deleted *

[shoyonika]

[tscii:27e4ea87e0]


«ýɢ§Ã, ±ý ¾Á¢ú ±ôÀÊ?
just ask your mother how much she likes your tamil, if she likes it , then you can guess your own status. my name in bengali means `of the shoyona(shesha shayan)`you can translate it to your own so good luck while asking your mother what if her name means the same as you think my name means[/tscii:27e4ea87e0]

[kannannn]

[tscii:60bf7c7b48]shoyonika, ¾í¸û Å¡¾õ ºüÚõ ±üÒ¨¼Â¾ýÚ. þ¾¢ø ¾¡ö ±íÌ Åó¾¡÷? «Å÷ À¡Åõ, Å¢ðΠŢÎõ. Áü¦È¡Õ §ÅñΧ¸¡û. ¿£í¸û ±¾üÌ À¾¢ø «Ç¢ì¸¢È£÷¸û ±ýÚ ÒâÂÅ¢ø¨Ä. ¾í¸Ç¢¼õ ¾Á¢ú Åâ ÅÊÅõ þÕó¾¡ø, ¾Á¢Æ¢§Ä§Â ºÃ¢ôÀÎò¾¢ ±Ø¾×õ.

PP, ±ÉìÌõ shoyonika Å󾾢ĢÕóÐ ±ýÉ ¿¼ì¸¢È¦¾ý§È ÒâÂÅ¢ø¨Ä. ¡§ÃÛõ Å¢ð¼ þ¼ò¾¢Ä¢ÕóÐ ¦¾¡¼÷Å¡÷¸Ç¡?[/tscii:60bf7c7b48]

[shoyonika]

[tscii:6fbedd1575]
shoyonika, ¾í¸û Å¡¾õ ºüÚõ ±üÒ¨¼Â¾ýÚ. þ¾¢ø ¾¡ö ±íÌ Åó¾¡÷? «Å÷ À¡Åõ, Å¢ðΠŢÎõ. Áü¦È¡Õ §ÅñΧ¸¡û. ¿£í¸û ±¾üÌ À¾¢ø «Ç¢ì¸¢È£÷¸û ±ýÚ ÒâÂÅ¢ø¨Ä. ¾í¸Ç¢¼õ ¾Á¢ú Åâ ÅÊÅõ þÕó¾¡ø, ¾Á¢Æ¢§Ä§Â ºÃ¢ôÀÎò¾¢ ±Ø¾×õ.

PP, ±ÉìÌõ shoyonika Å󾾢ĢÕóÐ ±ýÉ ¿¼ì¸¢È¦¾ý§È ÒâÂÅ¢ø¨Ä. ¡§ÃÛõ Å¢ð¼ þ¼ò¾¢Ä¢ÕóÐ ¦¾¡¼÷Å¡÷¸Ç¡? knowing a language is different and using it is different. I know it, but do not like to use it.[/tscii:6fbedd1575] why only tamil? cant we write in devanagari?

[indian224080]

Can anyone tell me where to get the font thats being used here?
Thanks in advance

[stranger]

* knowing a language is different and using it is different. I know it, but do not like to use it.

* why only tamil?

* cant we write in devanagari?

This is a thamizh literature section and YOUR INTENTIONS are OBVIOUS from YOUR OWN STATEMENT quoted above!

[Ronnie The Dutch]

Can anyone tell me where to get the font thats being used here?
Thanks in advance

Go through this link from the Hub announcement
http://www.forumhub.mayyam.com/hub/viewtopic.php?t=57

[kannannn]

[tscii:4a3279cb41]«ö¡/«õÁ¡ shoyonika, ¿£í¸û ±ó¾ Å¡¾ò¨¾ §Áü¦¸¡û ¸¡ðθ¢È£÷¸û ±ýÚ Å¢Çí¸Å¢ø¨Ä. ±É§Å ±ÉÐ §¸¡Ã¢ì¨¸.[/tscii:4a3279cb41]


I know it, but do not like to use it. why only tamil? cant we write in devanagari?
.[tscii:4a3279cb41]þÐ ¾Á¢ú Ţš¾ þ¨Æ. ±É§Å ¾Á¢Æ¢ø Ţš¾í¸û «¨Áŧ¾ ¦À¡Õò¾õ. §¾Åɸ¢Ã¢Â¢ø Ţš¾õ ¦ºö ŢÕõÀ¢É¡ø, ºÁ¢Š¸¢Õ¾/†¢ó¾¢ ¨ÁÂí¸ÙìÌî ¦ºøÄ×õ. [/tscii:4a3279cb41] This is the reason why many tamilians still feel bitter about the dominance and imposition of a certain language. :evil:


Can anyone tell me where to get the font thats being used here?
Thanks in advance
Visit the testing section of this forum and you will find the answers

[indian224080]

Thank you RTD and Kannnannnnnn

[bis_mala]

[tscii:9b3612cb90]
nivedya to be communicated or related or presented or delivered n. an offering of food for an idol

Presently the word denotes offering of food to the deity.

It came from Tamil ¦¿ö+¨Åò¾ø. Originally ghee was either applied to or offered as food to deity.
Subsequently it also extemded to other food offered besides ¦¿ö.

¦¿ö¨ÅòÐ > ¿¢§Åò¾¢Â. (¦¿ö «øÄÐ ÁüÈ ¯½×¸û ¨ÅòÐ ÅÆ¢Àξø. )

Any worship is an attempt to communicate with the deity. Thus it further extended to communicating with the deity through offering etc.

¦Åñ¦½ö ¾¢ýÀÅý ¸ñ½ý ±ýÀ¨¾Ôõ ¸ÅÉ¢ì¸×õ.

( I have given this in a previous post but now could not find it)[/tscii:9b3612cb90]

I reconfirm this etymology. Dravidian words are appropriated by the Sanskritists, mutilated and claimed to be their own. Sanskritists put out bogus etymology for Tamil words and then lodge claims.

Similarly vEtham and upanishad are also formed from Dravidian roots.
Vetham as well as Upanishad (upaneyavu) are Tamil words from Tamil roots. Reconfirmed.

[viggop]

Sivamalaji
I want to know whether words like "yagam","homam","smriti","sruthi" are also from Tamil.

Since Vedas and Upanishads are from Thamizh, do you think philosophy contained in Vedas and Upanishads were originally from Thamiz Nadu?
Vedas is believed to have come directly from Lord Shiva and just compiled together by Veda Vyasar.

What about the names "Rig", "Yajur","Sama" and "atharva"?do they have roots in Tamil?

[bis_mala]

[tscii:4457c02ad5]
viggopji,

Á¢ÆüÚ¾ø is a word which means "to say";. mizaRRu-tal in current usage means 1. to prattle, as a child; 2. to speak softly. The basic idea in the word is to make a sound with your tongue and lips. Whenever a root is appropriated for the formulation of another word, the fine shades of meanings in the root are usually set aside.

If you examine the word closely, you will notice that it is in the "piRavinai" form. The "thanvinai" of that form is "mizaRu" which may be retrieved from mizaRRu.

Smiruthi is formed in the following manner with the above word.

Á¢ÆÚ (Á¢ÆüÚ) > Á¢Õ > Á¢Õ+¾¢ (suffix) > Á¢Õ¾¢ > ŠÁ¢Õ¾¢.

compare: ¾¢Èõ > ¾¢Ãõ > Š¾¢Ãõ.

suruthi is formed from the Tamil root: suraththal.

ÍÃ > ÍÃò¾ø. (¿£÷ ÍÃò¾ø; ´Ä¢ ÍÃò¾ø.)
ÍÃ > ÍÃ+¾¢ = ÍÕ¾¢. (ÍÃ>ÍÕ).

Will return with other words.[/tscii:4457c02ad5]

[bis_mala]

The word upanishad has been variously analysed and interpreted to mean sitting down near by some Sanskritists and as 'to loosen.,' 'to reach' or 'to destroy' with Upa and ni as prefixes and kvip as termination. As interpretations vary, it is clear that the Skrtists are not sure of the derivation or not entirely satisfied with their own interpretations.
In all teaching sessions, the pupils must be near as they did not have loudspeakers then. They sat for obvious reason. It is not something peculiar to teaching of upanishad alone. Thus Sanskrit etymologies are unfit. The proper etymology of the word is from Tamil.

Sayanaachaaria in 14c ACE reduced them to writing. Otherwise these compos were floating around orally. The name "upanishad" was given to the varied collections probably at the time.

[shoyonika]

I want to know whether words like "yagam","homam","smriti","sruthi" are also from Tamil.

Since Vedas and Upanishads are from Thamizh, do you think philosophy contained in Vedas and Upanishads were originally from Thamiz Nadu?
Vedas is believed to have come directly from Lord Shiva and just compiled together by Veda Vyasar.

What about the names "Rig", "Yajur","Sama" and "atharva"?do they have roots in Tamil?
yaagam is derived from Samskrith root `yaj` means to sacrifice.
homam is also Samskrith from `juh` means offer to fire.
smrthi(memory) is again from Samskrith meaning taken out from memories of learned men(it consists of 18 rishis teaching dharma shastra from their memories from the past scripture).
Shruthi means `heard ones`it`s root is `sru` meaning to hear. these have been the sacred teachings of rishis regarding the daily routines of human beings and their duties, which they have heard from Brahma Deva.
Now secondly, vedas and upanishads are not tamil as said above but pure Samskrith. veda`s root is vid meaning knowledge and upanishad`s root is shad. Neither vedas nor upanishads deal with the philosophical teachings of tamil nadu but both are from ancient times even before tamil was formed(as the mention of vedas is present in tamil because vedas existed before tamil, but can anyone quote any statement regarding the word tamil in either vedas or upanishads?)
Vedas are not from Lord Shiva but from Lord Brahma praising paramatman( the supreme being) from each of his face. the east sided face chanted rg veda, north yajur veda, west sama veda and south atharvana veda. These were learnt by the saptarshis and celestial beings in a whole,and passed on according to guru-shishya parampara(no mention of vedas being written has been made until recent times that is 200bc) but due to the advent of kali eon, people fell short of memory, so, Veda Vyasa divided(not compiled) the vedas again into 4 parts.
Rg veda : root `ruk` meaning chant and `vid`meaning knowledge, so it in total means the knowledge of chants.
Yajur veda: root, remember yaj, from yaagam? same root, this veda deals completely with the knowledge of sacrifices known as yaagas.
Sama veda: meaning the knowledge or science of music which contains the most ancient ragas known as samas.
Atharvana veda: dealing with the science of supernaturals or in easy words magic, wizardry and vashikarana sort of mantras.
and lastly some people read only half the meanings of words. there has never been in ancient times a quarrel amongst Samskrith scholars regarding upanishad, the real meaning given universally is `Upanishad' is derived by adding the prefixes `upa' (near) and `ni'
(with certainty) and the suffix `kvip' to the root `sad' meaning ` to destroy, to go to and
to loosen'. By the word 'Upanishad' is meant the knowledge that destroys the seeds of worldly existence such as ignorance in the case of those seekers of liberation who, after cultivating detachment towards all enjoyments, approach (upa,sad) this knowledge and
then deliberate on it with steadiness and certainty (ni).
So any more doubts, ask me, well if you want the correct meanings. bye.

[shoyonika]

[tscii:87fbfdf7f2]
þÐ ¾Á¢ú Ţš¾ þ¨Æ. ±É§Å ¾Á¢Æ¢ø Ţš¾í¸û «¨Áŧ¾ ¦À¡Õò¾õ. §¾Åɸ¢Ã¢Â¢ø Ţš¾õ ¦ºö ŢÕõÀ¢É¡ø, ºÁ¢Š¸¢Õ¾/†¢ó¾¢ ¨ÁÂí¸ÙìÌî ¦ºøÄ×õ. This is the reason why many tamilians still feel bitter about the dominance and imposition of a certain language.
It is not the question of being bitter of anything, but, though this being a tamil forum, people use mostly engish over here. If language means so important, then why do more than 3/4th in this forum use english?[/tscii:87fbfdf7f2]

[bis_mala]

[tscii:7b8cd76a57]«÷ (¾Á¢ú) = ´Ä¢.

This root has been explained by several researchers/

«÷ > «ÃüÚ >«ÃüÚ¾ø.
«÷ > «ÃðÎ > «Ãðξø.
«÷ > «ÃðÎ > «¾ðÎ >«¾ðξø.
There are other words from this root.

(«)Ãü(Ú) > âü > âì. ( º¡Á¢Â¡Ê¸û ±ØôÒõ ´Ä¢¸Ç¢ý §¸¡¨Å¡¸¢Â Ã¢ì §Å¾õ.) chantings.

Ã¢ì ±ýÀÐ ¾¨ÄÔõ Å¡Öõ §À¡É ¾Á¢ú¡øÄ¢ý ¾¢Ã¢Ò.

¸Á¢ø ÍÅÄÀ¢ø 500 ¾Á¢úî ¦º¡ü¸û Ã¢ì §Å¾ò¾¢ø ¯ûÇÉ ±ýÚ ¸ñÎÀ¢Êò¾¡÷. À¡Å¡½÷ 800ìÌõ §ÁüÀð¼¨Å ±ýÚ §ÁÖõ ¸ñ¼È¢ó¾¡÷.

ħ¸¡Åâ¢ý ¬ö×ôÀÊ «ÃüÚ¸¾ò¾¢Öõ (âì) ºí¸¾ò¾¢Öõ (ºÁò¸¢Õ¾) 2/3 ÀíÌ ¾¢Ã¡Å¢¼ ÁüÚõ Óñ¼¡ ¦Á¡Æ¢¸ÙìÌâ ¦º¡ü¸û ±ýÚ ¬öóШÃòÐûÇ¡÷.

¬ö×Өȸû «È¢Â¡¾Å÷¸û ¬Â¢Ãõ ¬ñθÙìÌÓý ÜȢ ÅÆ¢ô§À¡ìÌ ¬ö׸¨Ç Á£ñÎÓ¨ÃôÀ¾¢ø ±ýÉ ÀÂý!!
¿¨¸ôÀ¾üÌò¾¡ý ºÃ¢ôÀÎõ.

¦¾¡¼Õõ.
[/tscii:7b8cd76a57]

[mahadevan]

It is not the question of being bitter of anything, but, though this being a tamil forum, people use mostly engish over here. If language means so important, then why do more than 3/4th in this forum use english?

Hi Shoyonika, since Tamil lit clearly states what it wants to state, we can discuss the intellectual content of it any language, this is a definitive advantage of Tamil over sanskrit, sanskrit requires a great degree of fabrication/reverse engineering to derive something sensible. Since such fabrications in sanskrit often uses the inefficiencies of the language it makes sense to treat sanskrit lit in sanskrit only.

[bis_mala]

[tscii:5ed51cbb0f]
¡¸õ ±ýÀÐõ ¾Á¢ú¡ø¾¡ý. ¡ò¾ø = ¸ðξø. Áó¾¢Ãò¾¢É¡ø ¸ðÎÅÐ ±ýÛõ ÅÆìÌ þýÚŨà ¯ûÇÐ. ¸Â¢Ú ¸ðÊ즸¡ûÅÐ, ¸¡ôÒì ¸ðÊ즸¡ûÅРӾĢ ÅÆì̸¨ÇÔõ §¿¡ì̸.

¡ > ¡+Ì+«õ > ¡¸õ.
ƒ¤÷ ±ýÈ ¦º¡ø §ÅÚ. ÌÆôÀ§Åñ¼¡õ. ƒ¤÷ ±ýÀÐ ®Ã¡É¢Â ÅÆìÌî ¦º¡ø ±ýÚ º¢Ä÷ ÜÚ¸¢ýÈÉ÷. þ¨¾ô À¢ýÒ ¸ÅÉ¢ô§À¡õ.

¡õ ±ÎòШÃò¾ À¢È¦º¡ü¸¨ÇÔõ ¯Ú¾¢¦ºö¸¢§È¡õ. §¾ÔÀ¡¨¼ þÈóÐŢ𼠿¢¨Ä¢ø, §¾ÅÀ¡¨¼ ±ý¦È¡Õ À¡¨¼ (language ) þø¨Ä

¦¾¡¼Õõ..[/tscii:5ed51cbb0f]

[viggop]

shoyonika
Thanks for explaining from the Sanskrit angle.I welcome both yours and Sivamala's views too.Ultimately, i get to learn lot of things from both of you! :-)

In the Rig Veda, atleast the Gayathri Mantram is supposed to have come from Rishi Vishwamithra.It is he who is supposed to have got the gayathri manthram and it is part of Rig Veda.
So, maybe the rishis added their views to Brahma's veda?

also, the yajur veda is supposed to have 2 parts --krishna yajur and another part composed by a rishi.I too have heard is it ritual oriented.

[viggop]

Sivamalaji
Thanks for your explanation too.Will ask you more questions when i have doubts :-)

[bis_mala]

Viggopji, thank you and best regards.

[bis_mala]

[tscii:44b0953138]. .
homam: The Sans root `juh` allegedly meaning "offer to fire". is fabricated from thamiz "°ú" (verb).

°ú (verb) > °úò¾ø = pouring as for example pouring onto fire. (one of the meanings of this word).
°ú (¾Á¢ú) > ƒ¤ (ºÁò¸¢Õ¾õ).

°ú/°üÚ ±ýÀÉ ´§Ã ãÄòÐî ¦º¡ü¸û. Would not digress into that.

compare: ¯Â¢÷ > ¢÷ > ƒ¢ù (>ƒ£Åý).

ºÁò¸¢Õ¾õ ±ÎòÐ즸¡ñ¼ Àøġ¢Ãõ ¾¢Ã¡Å¢¼î ¦º¡ü¸Ç¢ø °ú ±ýÀÐõ ´ýÚ.

°ú > (°{ú}Áõ) > µÁõ > §†¡Á¡ (Skrt).
casting clarified butter into the fire.

compare: À¡ú > (À¡{ú}Åõ) > À¡Åõ.

Brahman pre-existed the Vedas (per Gilbert Slater) and similar god has been found in Egyptian culture. But the word Brahman is from À¢È(/Ã)+õ+«ý or ÀÃ+õ+«ý. Ancient Egypt had trade relationships with Tamiz states.
[/tscii:44b0953138]

[indian224080]

[tscii:562482f68e]
þÐ ¾Á¢ú Ţš¾ þ¨Æ. ±É§Å ¾Á¢Æ¢ø Ţš¾í¸û «¨Áŧ¾ ¦À¡Õò¾õ. §¾Åɸ¢Ã¢Â¢ø Ţš¾õ ¦ºö ŢÕõÀ¢É¡ø, ºÁ¢Š¸¢Õ¾/†¢ó¾¢ ¨ÁÂí¸ÙìÌî ¦ºøÄ×õ. This is the reason why many tamilians still feel bitter about the dominance and imposition of a certain language.
It is not the question of being bitter of anything, but, though this being a tamil forum, people use mostly engish over here. If language means so important, then why do more than 3/4th in this forum use english?[/tscii:562482f68e]
Shoyonika,
you know that some ilks here are just like Frogs in well. Frogs in a well think that their well is the deepest and its croaking sound is the sweetest in the world. Little they realize what lies outside. Thats what is being done here....

[mahadevan]

And Indianxxxx is the biggest frog of all :lol: :lol: :lol:

[stranger]

:rotfl:

[bis_mala]

[tscii:ecb8f65cc6]To confirm that "homa" is a Dravidian word from Tamil root:

1. Sans is/was an Indo-Euro language. 1/3 of its lexical base is clearly Indo-Euro in origin. (proven fact.) 2/3 of it: Dravidian largely, Munda and other lingos too. (proven fact).

2. Homa has no Indo-European homonym.

3. It can be directly connected to the Tamil word uuzththal. (as shown above). (using rules on word corruption patterns and rules on interchangeability between Dravidian and Indo-Euro).

4. The basic meaning ("casting" (clarified butter into fire) of the words: is strikingly similar between roots °(úò¾ø) and juh.

5. To me, the homa practice does not seem to be Indo-Euro in origin. There is practice of casting things into fire as a ritual in Chinese taoism. More research may be needed on this speicific point.
The Chinese word "uu" "°" means "present" or "have" and is a Íð¼Êî ¦º¡ø (demonstrative) and has a meaning similar to Tamil "uL" ¯û (¯ûÇÐ). A remote connection cannot be ruled out on the etymology of these two words °ú(ò¾ø) and Chinese °. I will conclude that homa is not Indo-Euro practice unless I come across further evidence later.

6. Homa < µÁõ is therefore a Tamil word.[/tscii:ecb8f65cc6]

[shoyonika]

Hi Shoyonika, since Tamil lit clearly states what it wants to state, we can discuss the intellectual content of it any language, this is a definitive advantage of Tamil over sanskrit, sanskrit requires a great degree of fabrication/reverse engineering to derive something sensible. Since such fabrications in sanskrit often uses the inefficiencies of the language it makes sense to treat sanskrit lit in sanskrit only.
Hi mahadevan, nice try but without any luck. Samskrith never requires any advantage over tamil to prove its supremacy, or dominance over roots and words. Fabrications are used by recent languages to just try to compare themselves with Samskrith, in which they have lost the true meaning they want to convey. Samskrith is so dignified that no need has of late been found to reverse engineer anything to form a word or to discuss anything intellectual. Samskrith, and use words from other languages, for that you need to be given a 1st prize in joking. Lastly there is no need of definitive advantages for a language whose writing and word expression itself is incomplete. Just try to write the word Samskrith as it is pronounced in tamil and you can yourself find its so called efficiency against Samskrith.

[bis_mala]

(@ lak-73-228.wohnheime.ruhr-uni-bochum.de) on: Tue Oct 19 19:08:19 EDT 2004

There should be a lot of borrowed words in sanskrit from earlier dravidian languages. This is quiet logical. Obiviously, Tamil is one of the very old dravidian languages so traces of tamil words should be there in sanskrit . there is no wonder about it.

Inian is right!! There were many who saw the truth......
They (Sanskritists ) had no name for the religion. The Iranians gave the name!
They (Sanskritists ) had no name for their holy books. The Tamils gave the names.
Such is the plight of the frogs in the well.

[shoyonika]

That explains the plight of people saying Samskrith is derived from Irani or persian. :lol:
Easiest thing to escape is if you cannot prove tamil older, just say Samskrith is a derivative of persian. But they are not even of the same grammatical setup. Irani or farsi or persian is just the language branch of Indo european language, whereas Samskrith is the head for all the Indo-european language, though has a number of, needs no proofs.
What about Bharatha`s religion`s name? well even a small boy with minimum knowledge would tell the reason for it. There was no need for a religion until the advent of the westerners as the people lived peacefully following Varnashrama systems, and the name if required would be given Vedic religion. So, name of religion was needed only to distinguish between Bharathiyas and pashchatyas. Now what was that about tamil names for Samskrith works? :lol: try to find tamil roots for manimekhalai and silpadhikaram, as joining diphthongs as ai in the end wont tamilise Samskrith.
Lastly people are becoming cultured using Samskrith phrases like frog in the well that is, `koopa manduka`. Sorry for puncturing feelings. Better luck next time.

[bis_mala]

[tscii:c28b26e68b]«¾÷(¾Á¢ú) = ¦¿È¢, ÅÆ¢ ±ýÀÐ ¦À¡Õû.

«¾÷ + Å(ñ)½õ = «¾÷Žõ, ¦¿È¢Ó¨È¸¨Çì ÜÚõ §Å¾õ ±ýÀÐ.

Áó¾¢Ãí¸Ç¡ø §¿¡ö ¿£ì̾ø, ÁüÈ ¾£Â¨Å¸¨Çì ¸ðÎôÀÎò¾ø ӾĢÂÅüÚì¸¡É ¦¿È¢¸¨Çì ÜÚÅÐ.

þ¾¢ø ÅÕõ takman ±ýÈ ¦º¡ø ¾Á¢ú "¾ÎÁý" ±ýÀ¾ý żÅÊÅõ.

±É§Å «¾÷Ž ±ýÀÐõ ¾Á¢Æ¢Ä¢ÕóÐ ¸¼ý¦ÀüÈ ¦º¡ø ±ýÀÐ ¦¾Ç¢×.[/tscii:c28b26e68b]

[shoyonika]

Chinese for present is `iu` and not uu.

[stranger]

Lastly people are becoming cultured using Samskrith phrases like frog in the well that is, `koopa manduka

:rotfl:

[bis_mala]

The earliest inscription in Sanskrit is by the Saka Mahakshatrapa Rudradaman at Junagarh in Gujarat dated to AD 150.

That's how old this stateless, scriptless, speechless Sans is!! :hammer:

[bis_mala]

[tscii:ffeebf1e2a]þô§À¡Ð ¸ñÎÀ¢ÊòÐÅ¢ð§¼ý.....§º¨Ä ¸ðÊ즸¡ñÎ, Åí¸¡Çô ¦Àñ¨½ô§À¡ø Åó¾ þó¾ ¬¼Å÷ ¡¦ÃýÚ.......
¾Á¢ú ¿ýÈ¡¸ «È¢ó¾Å÷... º¢í¸ôââĢÕôÀÅ÷!![/tscii:ffeebf1e2a] :rotfl:

[stranger]

[tscii:b4881f87d7]À¡Å¡¨¼¾¡Åɢ¢ø À¡÷ò¾ ¯ÕÅÁ¡ ?
þÐ âÅ¡¨¼ Å£º¢ ÅÕõ âò¾ ÀÕÅÁ¡ ?[/tscii:b4881f87d7] :rotfl:

[bis_mala]

[tscii:d5e7cb0be0]ÁÂì¸ò¨¾ò ¾ó¾Åý ¡ÃÊ
Á½Á¸ý ¡¦ÃýÚ ÜÈÊ !! :)

---±ý¦ÈøÄ¡õ À¡ÊÅ¢ÎÅ£÷¸û §À¡Ä¢Õ츢ȧ¾!! «ôÀʦÂøÄ¡õ ´ýÚÁ¢ø¨Ä.
«ñ¨Á¢ø ¿¡ý þùÅ¢¨½Âò¾¢ø þ¨½ó¾À¢ýÒ «È¢Ó¸Á¡ÉÅ÷¾¡ý.
À¢û¨ÇÌðÊì ¸¡Ã÷, À¡Åõ!! :rotfl:

¬ö׸û ¬ÆÁ¡¸î ¦ºøħÅñÎõ ±ýÛõ §¿¡ì¸¢ø ¸¢ñÊŢθ¢È¡÷....

«Å÷ ¦À¨à þô§À¡Ð ¬Ã¡ö§Å¡õ!! :lol:

ºÂÉõ = º¡ö (root) +«Éõ (suffix). º¡ÂÉõ ±ýÚ ÅáÁø ºÂÉõ ±ýÚ ÌÚ¸¢ÂÐ. àí̾ø ±ýÚ ¦À¡Õû. º¡ö = º¡öóÐ àí̾ø.

þôÀÊî ¦º¡ø ÌÚÌžüÌ µ÷ ¯¾¡Ã½õ:

º¡× + «õ = ºÅõ (º¡Åõ ±ýÚ ÅáРºÅõ ±ýÚ Åó¾Ð).
ÜõÒ + «õ = ÌõÀõ ±ýÀЧÀ¡ø ÀÄ ¦º¡ü¸û.
º¢Ä ҽâÂø Å¢¾¢¸û ¦º¡øÄ¡ì¸ò¾¢ø ¸¨¼ôÀ¢Êì¸ôÀðÊÄ «øÄÐ þ¨Å ¦¿ÊøӾġöô À¢ÈóÐ À¢ýÒ ÌÚ¸¢É ±ýÚõ ÜÈ¢Ûõ ´ýÚ¾¡ý.....

ºÂÉõ>ºÂÉý>ºÂÉ¢¨¸.

¬¾¢§º¼ý ¸¨¾¦ÂøÄ¡õ ´ýÚõ Ò¾¢¾ýÚ.[/tscii:d5e7cb0be0]

[stranger]

[tscii:5f7133aa61]ºÃ¢ ¯í¸Ù측¸ þýÛõ þÃñÎ ¾¢¨ÃÀ¼ô À¡¼ø¸û À⺡¸ ò¾Õ¸¢§Èý.

þó¾ Ò¾¢ÕìÌ Å¢¨¼ ¸ñÎÀ¢Êò¾ü¸¡¸ ¯í¸ÙìÌ þó¾ À¡¼ø Àâ͸û! :D

ÀÃ¢Í 1

º¢Ã¢ôÒ ÅÕÐ º¢Ã¢ôÒ ÅÕÐ º¢Ã¢ì¸ º¢Ã¢ì¸ º¢Ã¢ôÒ ÅÕÐ
º¢ýÉ ÁÛ„ý ¦Àâ ÁÛ„ý ¦ºÂ¨Ä À¡÷òÐ º¢Ã¢ôÒ ÅÕÐ

ÀÃ¢Í 2

¡¨Ãò¾¡ý ¿õÒŧ¾¡ §À¨¾ ¦¿ïºõ :? :?
«õÁõÁ¡ âÁ¢Â¢§Ä ¡Åõ Åïºõ! :(

:)[/tscii:5f7133aa61]

[bis_mala]

[tscii:cf6587d509]¬†¡! ¿ýÈ¢ ¿ýÈ¢!

"ºí¸õÒ¸ú ÓÃͦ¸¡ñ¼ ¾É¢ÂÃÍ!
±ý ¾Á¢ú¦Á¡Æ¢ì ¦¸Ð§Å¡ ¿£÷ ¾ÕõÀâÍ?"[/tscii:cf6587d509]

[shoyonika]

In the Rig Veda, atleast the Gayathri Mantram is supposed to have come from Rishi Vishwamithra.It is he who is supposed to have got the gayathri manthram and it is part of Rig Veda.
So, maybe the rishis added their views to Brahma's veda?
I have a story about this. Here it goes:
Vishwamitra wanted the Brahmarshi position which was in hands of Vashista Rshi. He meditated, performed sacrifices but was not in that line after doing all these for about 20 thousand years. Sage Vashista was the kulguru of the Ikshvaku clan.
As the story goes, Vishwamitra was travelling in forests to find a place suitable for penance. At that time, a Brahmarakshasa was travelling very hungrily in the same forest. Seeing Vishwamitra, the rakshasa was about to pounce on him and eat him, but the light in Vishwamitra`s face stopped him. Instead he started begging Vishwamitra for food.
Now Vishwamitra, who had something in his mind to overthrow Vashista from Brahmarshi position, put forth a pact in front of the demon. He stated that the demon,if he worked for Vishwamitra once, will be fed with 100 people. The demon agreed the pact.
Vishwamitra now dressed the demon as a cook to King Satyavrata`s kitchen with the instructions he needed to perform. The demon-cook went to the king and introduced himself as a cook with great culinary expertise. The king appointed him as a cook as soon as he savoured the food prepared by the demo-cook.
Now came the major plan. According to rules, a Brahmarshi should not eat meat and if it so happens, will loose his position. The 5th day of his entry into the royal kitchen wa sa festive occasion. As a ritual Sage Vashista had to eat in the palace. The plan was to serve Vashista with human meat and snatch his Brahmarshi position.
At the end, Vashistarshi was served human meat in between vegetables by the demon-cook. When the rshi found something fishy about the food, he checked the dish through his Jnanadrshti(light of knowledge) he found he had been served human meat. Knowing nothing about all this, the king who had water in his palms to perform a ritual met with ill fate, as seeing him in front, Vashishta(who did not know that the king was not responsible for this error) cursed him to become a Narabhakshaka(demon who eats humans alive)for serving him human meat. The king enraged for being cursed for something he had not done, was about to curse the Rshi with the water in his hands, just then hid intelligent wife stopped him as cursing a Brahman would make ill befall the whole lineage. Thus the king poured all the curse water onto his own legs and behold! hid legs started blistering anmd unable to tolerate the pain, ran away to the forest.
By this time, Sage Vishwamitra, came to know all about the hapenings through the demon-cook. He already made the demon-cook enter the body of the king who had already become a bloodthirsty demon. After his entrance into the kings body, the demon-cook, on Vishwamitra`s telling, went to Vashista`s house and ate all 100 sons of Vashista including Shakti and Shatananda and ran away happily. But the sin of Brahma-hatya leaveth none. It could not catch hold the demon as he already was having that dosha, but the dosha ran after Vishwamitra.
Vishwamitra started to yell after seeing the doshapurusha wiuth his long horns red eyes and black face. He escaped to Kailasa where Rudradeva(Eashwara) denied him any help against that major dosha(the sin bourne by killing a Brahman is Brahma-hatya dosha). So Vishwamitra rushed to Satyaloka where Brahma, the creator adviced him to chant the Gayathri mantra from Rg Veda. After doing Gangasnan and chanting Gayathri, he was cleansed of all sins including Brahma-hatya dosha.
So this Gayathri became famous as the Gayathri which cleansed Sage Vishwamitra and hence, Vishwamitra Gayathri.
There is another Gayathri by name Hamsa Gayathri only used by Sanyasis or mystics. So far no views have been added to Vedas but the views of Rshis are present in Upanishads, Shrthis and Smrthis.

also, the yajur veda is supposed to have 2 parts --krishna yajur and another part composed by a rishi.I too have heard is it ritual oriented.
Krishna Yajurveda(rituals of newmoon) and Shukla Yajurveda(rituals of fullmoon) are the categories in which the Ritualistic Veda of Yajus is found.
Any more queries, do ask without hesitation. Bye.

[kannannn]

It is not the question of being bitter of anything, but, though this being a tamil forum, people use mostly engish over here. If language means so important, then why do more than 3/4th in this forum use english?[/tscii]

Because posting in english is easy. BTW, ask your N. Indian friends if they can even distinguish between one southern language from the other. That's how much vain they are.

[tscii:89d8b7f437]Á¡Ä¡, º¢Ä «ýÀ÷¸û ¿¢Â¡ÂÁ¡É Ţš¾õ ¦ºöžü¸¡¸ ÅÕž¡¸ ¦¾Ã¢ÂÅ¢ø¨Ä. «Å÷¸¨Ç ÒÈ츽¢ôÀ§¾ ºÃ¢. ¾í¸û ¸Õò¾¢ø ¾í¸Ù째 ¿õÀ¢ì¨¸ þøÄ¡Áø ÀüÀÄ §Å¼í¸Ç¢ø ÅÕÀÅ÷¸Ù¼ý º£Ã¢Â Ţš¾õ ¦ºöÂÓÊ¡Ð.[/tscii:89d8b7f437]

[bis_mala]

உண்மைதான் திரு கண்ணன். இவர்கள் இழிசொற்களைப் பயன்படுத்தித் தவறான வாதம் செய்து பிற அன்பர்களைத் தரக்குறைவாக ஏசுகிறவர்கள். புறக்கணிப்பதே நல்லது. உணர்ந்தேன்.

[pavalamani pragasam]

[tscii:215e34b2e1]Á¡Ä¡, ¾Ã¡¾Ãõ «È¢óРЉ¼¨Ã ¸ñÎ §¾¡Ã Å¢ÄÌŧ¾ ¯ò¾Áõ. «È¢×¨¼Â «ýÀ÷¸û «È¢Å÷ ¯ñ¨ÁÔõ ÀñÒõ ¯¨ÈÔÁ¢¼ò¨¾.[/tscii:215e34b2e1]

[bis_mala]

[tscii:572187f103]¬õ §Á¼õ!! ¿¡õ ¸Å¢¨¾ô À̾¢Â¢ø ºó¾¢ô§À¡õ. º¢Ä Åâ¸Ù¼ý Å¡Õí¸û. ¿ýÈ¢. :( [/tscii:572187f103]

[shoyonika]

Because posting in english is easy. BTW, ask your N. Indian friends if they can even distinguish between one southern language from the other. That's how much vain they are.
If being vain is concerned, then just measure your worth in the literature field, instead of showing others being vain or worthy. And I in no way am troubling anyone, I too speak and write tamil, so I am not creating any misunderstanding, but am correcting what had gone wrong, though if you want to join others in different threads, it is your own wish Krishna. And if posting in english is easy, then why do you write in tamil? so that some should not understand what you say? come on, this forum is supposed to be for everyone seeking knowledge.

[kannannn]

It is your prerogative to write in english or tamil, but don't bring other languages in this Tamil thread. And I post in Tamil because I love posting in Tamil. But it's not always that I post from my home PC, where I have the fonts.

it is your own wish Krishna Stop calling me by any other name. :evil: :evil: :evil: I have never abused your name and I expect the same from you.

[stranger]

And I in no way am troubling anyone, I too speak and write tamil, so I am not creating any misunderstanding, but am correcting what had gone wrong, though if you want to join others in different threads, it is your own wish Krishna. And if posting in english is easy, then why do you write in tamil? so that some should not understand what you say? come on, this forum is supposed to be for everyone seeking knowledge.

Well, I am not going to blame you.

Sure, everybody is conming to gain knowledge. You can't understand biosynthesis of cholesterol when you dont know the valency of Carbon.

Not everybody can learn everything.






* knowing a language is different and using it is different. I know it, but do not like to use it.

* why only tamil?

* cant we write in devanagari?

This is a thamizh literature section and YOUR INTENTIONS are OBVIOUS from YOUR OWN STATEMENT quoted above!

It is a pity, they let you do your ugly dance around here :(

[viggop]

I want to know meaning of the word
"Neelotpalavalli"

[shoyonika]

This is a thamizh literature section and YOUR INTENTIONS are OBVIOUS from YOUR OWN STATEMENT quoted above!

It is a pity, they let you do your ugly dance around here
Well, atleast our thoughts match somewhere, as thats what I think about you too. :)

[shoyonika]

I want to know meaning of the word
"Neelotpalavalli"
means creeper of the blue lily, and when used as in the name of a person means, as delicate as the creeper of blue lotus.
Neela=Blue, Utpala=Lily, Valli=creeper.

[viggop]

Thanks Shoyonik
It is the name of Goddess Parvathi in a temple in Tamil Nadu

[manyvan2000]

Neelotpalavalli definitely means blue water lily. But the word is clearly tamil.
ul - of water
ulai - water set over fire for boiling rice
ularthu - to dry
ulari - a water fish
ulankalam - vessel to store water
ullolam - large wave
ulliyar - persons skilled in determining suitable places for digging wells
ulgu - duty (on imports)

palam, palaasam, pannam - leaf
ul + palam = water leaf = lily.

Neelam = blue
valli is a very common word in tamil - maravalli, peruvalli, irathavalli, iraasavalli, karpooravalli, kaattukkaaivalli, thaamaraivalli, kappalvalli, sarkaraivalli ... the list is endless.


neelam + ul + palam + valli = neelorpalavalli (neelotpalavalli)

[Vivek]

[tscii:f501f286a1]

Dear Mr. Jaiganes, :)

In world history a significant breakthrough has been done by Mr.Maxmuller who identified ‘Indo – Europiean Group of languages’ in 19th century.

His strong belief is man movement in history can be identified through language analysis.

He has done, found out certain truth but ended with wrong conclusion. The thing is he has not analysed tamil / other Dravidian group / North Indian tribal languages.

Importantly north Indian tribal languages are nothing but tamil.

Whenever Indian history studies made Sanskrit is made forefront as if it exposes all Indian hereditary which is a wrong theory. It is 1800 years old unspoken language created only for Hothas / knowledge preservation purposes.

In this case we have to analyse which culture / language influenced this Sanskrit. That will bring you great light to the history.

Thevanayap pavanar started his career as English teacher went on reading English formation and at last he found tamil was the origin for all the languages in the world. He started the roots formation guided by Maxmuller / Galduwell.

My approach is based on that. Many books influenced this. I had an opportunity in my school days to study about various history books. If you want the listing it won’t complete the purpose.

All other Indian languages are phonetically transformed structure / dialects of tamil is real truth.

Knan paranchu / parayu (Malayalam) Na cheppinadu (telugu) which are Shrinkage of Naan parainthathu / Naan cheppiyathu.

Doorvaja Banthgae (Hindi) ‘Theruvasal poththunga’ (tamil)- ‘Kathava Moodunga’ (another dialect)

Doorvaja Kolagae (Hindi) ‘Theruvasal Thoranga’ (tamil) ‘ Kathava Thiranga’ (another dialect)

Yahang Aav (Hindi) ‘Engae Vaa’ (tamil)

Kithap patna(Hindi) 'Puththakam padi'

My purpose is to intiate this vision to masses. People will find out lot of things / truths behind it (including the language pandits.)

f.s.gandhi



[/tscii:f501f286a1]

Aryan theory is a hoax Mr. gandhi

[bis_mala]

If you take the view that Sans is Indo-European:
Niila (niilam) (=blue) was one of the early Dravidian words borrowed by Sans from Dravidian and was identified so by western linguists and historians.
Niila is not an Indo-Euro term.

Niila forms part of the word niilOtpalam.

If you take the view that Sans arose from Dravidian base as did PaavaaNar and Sw.Nyanapragasam of Nallur, then it was just a concoction from Dravidian lexical base. It may have a claim on words specially made for itself and grammatically and linguistically incompatible with other Dravidian languages including Tamil. But it is proven that Sans had indiscriminately taken Dravidian and Munda roots to form words.

Even in the 2nd view, niilam is Tamil.

But an explanation has to be found for the existence in Sans for many Indo-Euro words and other linguistic elements, since 1/3 of its lexical base is Indo-Euro. One explanation may be that Sans borrowed those words from the west as has already been suggested by those historians who reject the AIT and AMT.

A reasonable conclusion is that Sans is a hybrid invention for liturgical purposes for the priesthood of India.

[viggop]

What does this word mean?

(1) "Sharadhambal" ,
(2) "Sringeri"

[viggop]

I know Sharadha is goddess saraswathi but what is the exact meaning of this name sharadambal?

[Chappani]

Hi Friends,

One of my Uncle's (from Tirunelveli) father name is Isaaki-Appan, I heard its one of the names of Lord Shiva.
This name is something unheard to me and looks like a Middle eastern Name Issac to me.

Can anyone tell me more about this word and its root.

Thanks

[FloraiPuyal]

Hi Friends,

One of my Uncle's (from Tirunelveli) father name is Isaaki-Appan, I heard its one of the names of Lord Shiva.
This name is something unheard to me and looks like a Middle eastern Name Issac to me.

Can anyone tell me more about this word and its root.

Thanks

It is not isaaaki. It is isakki-appan. isakki is from tamil iyakki-appan / iyakki-amman - one who drives the world.
isaac is from hebrew "yitzhaq" which means "he laughs" or "he laughed".

[shoyonika]

is there no meaning of Sharada in tamil?
oh! I should have guessed. you give tamil meaning only after you get the Real Samskrith meanings from me(because this way, it becomes easier to convert some part of the Samskrith meaning and present it in tamil clothing).
anyways, Viggop, Shringeri is the corrupted form of Shringa-Giri, which means the mountain of the deers.
Sharadamba means, `the mother with a Lotus-like Face`.
and both are Samskrith.

[podalangai]

Sharadamba means, `the mother with a Lotus-like Face`.

Shuddha Sanskrit scholars insist it comes from Sanskrit "Sharada" meaning autumn, which produces "Shaarada" meaning "white lotus" (or "cloud") which produces "Shaaradaa" meaning Saraswati ("one who has a face like a white lotus", or "white cloud"). Thani Tamil scholars insist it comes from Tamil "cAru", meaning "beautiful", which produces "cAratam" meaning "melodious" and "cAratA" or "cAratai" (Saraswati).

Scholars of Chennai Tamil (Madras bashai gilfans), however, say that the name comes from "saar", a gender-neutral term of respect in that language.

DISCLAIMER: This post is not an endorsement of any conclusion, contention, convention, assumption, presumption, position, speculation, supposition, fascination, articulation, abduction or indigestion.

[F.S.Gandhi vandayar]

Hi Friends,

One of my Uncle's (from Tirunelveli) father name is Isaaki-Appan, I heard its one of the names of Lord Shiva.
This name is something unheard to me and looks like a Middle eastern Name Issac to me.

Can anyone tell me more about this word and its root.

Thanks

'Iya'- Iyakki & Marthuk (maruthu) were gods of middle east. Isravel (christins) , Ibrahim - Muslims (Abraham in Christian texts) and jews came out of old beliefs of such gods.

'Iya' has gone through elamian(Present ezham) tradition in the middle east. Kindly visit my posts in 'Tamil's elderiness to world languages' posts.

f.s.gandhi

[F.S.Gandhi vandayar]

[quote=F.S.Gandhi vandayar][tscii]


Aryan theory is a hoax Mr. gandhi


Visit my other posts. I am not supporter of Aryan theory. Here I wanted to mention the fruitfulness of Maxmuller's research. Because he was the first man to dig something called 'Language archeology' which is now adapted by all the historiens.

f.s.gandhi

[sundararaj]

A very thought provoking thread. Thanks to f.s. gandhi for the info. Need to go through all the 15 pages once again with more concentration. Will do it.