BEING INDIAN

[nirosha sen]

So!! You are Indian!!!

What do you like about being Indian, either by birth or descent???

What are the drawbacks if any, abt being born an Indian????

This is posed to all Indian born Indians as well as those in the Diaspora, who could be several generations away from the 1st forebear who took that boat out!!

[gaddeswarup]

There is a book "Being Indian" by Pavan K. Varma (Viking, 2004) which discusses many concepts and issues like "Pan Indian Identity" relevant to this question.

[blahblah]

Now Nirosha,as I type this it is 40 views and just one reply!Something is wrong,isn't it? It is a global village coming up and we will have to accept facts.And it means that there is nothing special about being Indian or anything else in itself.We all accept the nationality with which we are born, and become passionate about it. :D

[hehehewalrus]

Being indian means:
Bribing the Village admin officer to get your birth certificate.
Bribing the school peon to submit your KG application.
Bribing the university peon to get your degree certificate.
Bribing BSNL to get ur phone connection.
Bribing PWD to get ur water connection.
Bribing EB to get ur electricity connection.
Bribing ONGC to get ur gas connection.
Bribing RTO to get ur Learners Licence.
Super-bribing RTO to get ur Driving Licence.
Standing in queue from 4 AM to book a railway ticket till the counter opens at 8 AM.
Standing in queue from 9 AM to 1030AM to get a bank statement.


There, those are the starters. Happy fighting now :twisted:

[nirosha sen]

Acrimony huh???!!! This is precisely, what I had in mind, when I put in my poser, Pa!! Ain't we an acrimonious lot???? That in order to get a point across, sometimes it's only thru a fight????

That's definitely a drawback, that I've noticed in many Indians!! :(

[hehehewalrus]

Acrimony huh???!!! This is precisely, what I had in mind, when I put in my poser, Pa!! Ain't we an acrimonious lot???? That in order to get a point across, sometimes it's only thru a fight????

Nirosha, what exactly are you referring to and who? elucidate!

[nirosha sen]

I'm referring to our worst found trait, of course, Pa!! Don't told me you haven't noticed???? :D

A kink in the Indian personality or psyche, perhaps???? What do you think, Walrus????!!!

Anyways, my main intention of starting this thread, is to seek our saving graces too, so let's not get on the war-path too soon, Pa!! :)

[Badri]

WARNING: LONG POST AHEAD!! READ AT YOUR OWN RISK

Hi Niro! Good soul searching exercise Pa!

I think once in a while we need something like this to just look into our own national psyche and see what stuff we are made of and to see how best we can improve.

And I think those of us Indians who are away from India have ample opportunities to observe the non-Indians and spot the differences.

As you have rightly said, sometimes, we seem to want to fight to establish our POV. Then again, the minute we started to talk about being Indian, we feel compelled (rather hehewalrus) felt compelled to list the negatives associated with it, with none of the positives!

Why?

Of course, one reason may also be the way you have worded your poser: What are the drawback to being Indian, if any - so naturally, people begin to point out the obvious drawbacks.

Personally, while as blahblah rightly said, the world is becoming a global village where such distinctions are soon ceasing to become important, it is still a matter of pride to be Indian. The reasons are endless...listing just a few:

a) Our cliched but still relevant national culture and heritage

b) Coming to the present, our culture of acceptance and tolerance. We won't find racial discrimination in India, the types that you still see as an undercurrent in the US or UK or Germany or Australia or any other such country. Yes, we have our squabbles, based on religion and language, but those are like domestic fights that every house has. There is no xenophobia, despite being hassled by invaders time and again.

c) The remarkable way in which we have progressed. With all our attendant difficulties in terms of huge population, poverty etc, we still have been able to excel and are gaining a place of prominence in the world map. Indians are everywhere, and thriving too.


d) The capacity to change, while yet retaining the old values. Most Western countries underwent a drastic change in the last couple of centuries. They progressed in great strides, but at the cost of values that had been cherished for ages. The European family tradition has completely shattered, while progress has been amazing. Religion has lost its meaning, while technology has found new ones. But in India, while still embracing technology and development, we have not lost focus on values, on religion, on spirituality. I think that is a great plus point we have, and in times to come, we would stand head and shoulders above the rest simply because of this one thing - that fact that we retain the best of both worlds.

Yes, the drawbacks are considerable, but I will wait for others to begin posting those before beginning.

One word though to hehewalrus - how long has it been since you visited India?


Bribing the Village admin officer to get your birth certificate: Hospitals give it as a matter of course now. Yes, you can bribe and get a false certificate.

Bribing the school peon to submit your KG application:
As above

Bribing the university peon to get your degree certificate: As above

Bribing BSNL to get ur phone connection: You dont have to. There are too many private vendors in the market. BSNL is bribing customers to stay, by offering a host of benefits!

Bribing PWD to get ur water connection: Perhaps

Bribing EB to get ur electricity connection: Perhaps.

Bribing ONGC to get ur gas connection: Not necessary.

Bribing RTO to get ur Learners Licence: There a dime a dozen learning schools that get your licenses legitimately. I got mine through one. I learnt to drive and got the licenses too.

Super-bribing RTO to get ur Driving Licence: Ditto

Standing in queue from 4 AM to book a railway ticket till the counter opens at 8 AM.: Indian Railways is fully automated. For the last 6 journeys or so, we have only booked online. The ticket gets delivered home.

Standing in queue from 9 AM to 1030AM to get a bank statement: Which bank? Local bank owned by the village panchayat leader? Or banks like ICICI which gives e-banking and e-statements?

The country is progressing too fast for some to kepp pace, looks like!

[hehehewalrus]

A kink in the Indian personality or psyche, perhaps???? What do you think, Walrus????!!!

Scribe Sen,
Why do u use words like KINK when people who have traversed the length and breadth of the country are speaking basic facts?

Anyway, am not surprised, You were actually SURPRISED about animals are treated in India since you thought it is the land of ahimsa. Thats a perfect example of theory(ahimsa) versus practice. So plz dream on, am just glad for the Indian Tourism department for people like you :P :P :P

BTW, I am yet to speak one word against chennai in all my life. Coz i've made one-day trips to chennai 14 times in my life. Period.
Live in a city and you will be a really wiser guy :D

[hehehewalrus]

Coming to the present, our culture of acceptance and tolerance. We won't find racial discrimination in India, the types that you still see as an undercurrent in the US or UK or Germany or Australia or any other such country. Yes, we have our squabbles, based on religion and language, but those are like domestic fights that every house has.

How many states have you lived around India?
Never heard of Northie-Southie divisions?
What about communal clashes? Why does security have to be tightened for a cricket match? What about caste clashes?



d) The capacity to change, while yet retaining the old values. Most Western countries underwent a drastic change in the last couple of centuries.

Badri, frankly IMHO Nostalgia is a bad word. It is merely a way of forgetting accountability for the present while floating in the past. Convince me that corruption will cease to exist a 100 years from now. All this talk of heritage is meaningless when accountability and professionalism is missing.



One word though to hehewalrus - how long has it been since you visited India?

Lived all over Ind. Came out, went back, came out. Known and seen everything, moved around much more than 80% of indians.

Now to the funny part :D


Bribing the Village admin officer to get your birth certificate: Hospitals give it as a matter of course now. Yes, you can bribe and get a false certificate.

You ever been to a govt hospital dude?
Are you aware how hospital ambulances demanded Rs.250 from tsunami affected for retrieving bodies of the dead? (Link will be provided on request)



Bribing the school peon to submit your KG application:
As above

Bribing the university peon to get your degree certificate: As above

What does as above mean???




Bribing BSNL to get ur phone connection: You dont have to. There are too many private vendors in the market. BSNL is bribing customers to stay, by offering a host of benefits!


Agree with the private vendors thing. But last time I went to BSNL office to get their pre-paid card, they turned me out saying they ran out of application forms! Haven't called home last fortnight since they're on strike in India(all NRIs will confirm this!)



Bribing RTO to get ur Learners Licence: There a dime a dozen learning schools that get your licenses legitimately. I got mine through one. I learnt to drive and got the licenses too.

hehehe! DEFINE legitimately. "Legitimately means shelling out Rs.2500 to a driving school out of which Rs.500 goes to the driving inspector, while doing it on your own costs under Rs.300". For an International Licence, its Rs.1000. Befriend any driving school owner, he will tell you.



Standing in queue from 4 AM to book a railway ticket till the counter opens at 8 AM.: Indian Railways is fully automated. For the last 6 journeys or so, we have only booked online. The ticket gets delivered home.

Yeah yeah. 1 billion people surf the net.
Do you know how many people in north india sleep on the counter threshold the previous night?



Standing in queue from 9 AM to 1030AM to get a bank statement: Which bank? Local bank owned by the village panchayat leader?


Nah nah, its the only and only State Bank of India. (Since its a bank, it cant possibly exist in a village, right?) My pal went to SBI asked 8 Dollar drafts from a counter. The reply? "Am I a man or a buffalo?".



Or banks like ICICI which gives e-banking and e-statements?

This one is for you - :lol2: :lol2: :lol2: :lol2: Really hilarious!
http://www.mouthshut.com/review/ICICI_Bank-19509-1.html

Also read these random picks
http://www.mouthshut.com/review/ICICI_Bank-12636-1.html
http://www.mouthshut.com/review/ICICI_Bank-7656-1.html
http://www.mouthshut.com/review/ICICI_Bank-19492-1.html

BTW, I've had bank accts and credit cards from StanC, Citibank, ABN Amro, ICICI and KNOW what I am talking about.



The country is progressing too fast for some to keep pace, looks like!
And you can only be a Congressman :D


BTW, I got my degree certificate in 1 day, Learners License in 1 day, bank loan in 1 week - The University registrar was my dad's pal, the RTO inspector my friend's dad's pal and the bank manager my uncle's pal :notworthy:

[jaiganes]

walrus wrote:

BTW, I got my degree certificate in 1 day, Learners License in 1 day, bank loan in 1 week - The University registrar was my dad's pal, the RTO inspector my friend's dad's pal and the bank manager my uncle's pal
No wonder walrus u are sucha a "pal" manam maaradha baalagan!! :rotfl:
Sorry No english translation for this one....

[blahblah]

Truth sticks out a mile,doesn't it?

It is very true that youhave to spent hours to get a rail ticket in India[comes from experience].It is again true that it is not easy to have a drivers license if you go the right way[I got it when I couldn't drive a car].It is a fact that you get question papers for public exams if you know whom to contact and have the ability to grease palms[I have got it].

Again,coming to it ,this is all quite common in developing countries and we are all patriots.Patriotism is a sort of imagination.What is a nation after all?What is that you will truly be proud about?-Language,State,Nationality,Religion,Caste,Race or something else?I have to confess here that I take pride in all that I am!And so will be all whom I am speaking to!

[dev]

& walrus,Y have u not added this to ur list?... U'll have to bribe to get ur PAN number... :lol: Yep,this happended when my husb applied for his PAn... He was demanded a bribe but my husband never paid it... He just told them that he's not ready to pay it & asked them to send it whenever they feel like... Finally...The PAN arrived almost a year after applying for it...

But I stand with Badri's comments... It's true that many things are changing...towards better...:)


Haven't called home last fortnight since they're on strike in India(all NRIs will confirm this!)

I had no problems calling home... :roll:

[Shekhar]

Which country I am born in, is matter of pure accidence. What I am, is not.
I can be proud of my achievement. Proud of something to the excellence of which I have contributed, which can be defined only in terms of personal achievements.
So I do not believe in community pride. Nor am I ashamed of belonging to it. As an individual I cannot claim credit either to its brightness nor responsibility to its blots, because there are too many vectors, inside and outside, acting upon it.
So I do not understand Nationalistic, linguistic, relgious, regionalistic, racist prides. They are shallow and vain. In the same vein I donot understand shame on the ground of belonging to a particular nation, language etc.
I am neither proud nor ashamed to be an Indian. But I can be proud of or ashamed of my actions, of my behaviour towards other people, of my ethics and values, of my achievements and failures. It makes no difference whether I am an Indian or not, it makes no difference whether I am in India or elsewhere.

[hehehewalrus]

& walrus,Y have u not added this to ur list?... U'll have to bribe to get ur PAN number... :lol:

dev, I didnt add this coz it did NOT happen to me. I DID pay Rs.300 to a guy and applied for a PAN but never got it(This I did after applying on my own twice and not getting it. The first time I applied in person - 8th floor of a govt building. While returning we were informed by the lift operator that the lift is meant for going up ONLY - so we all walked 8 floors down) :lol2: :lol2:

Check this out:
http://www.outlookindia.com/full.asp?fodname=19970813&fname=cover%5Fstory&sid=1&pn=1

"...only 14 per cent of Indians are believing he can get work done quickly by honesty..."

[Cygnus]

Which country I am born in, is matter of pure accidence. What I am, is not.
I can be proud of my achievement. Proud of something to the excellence of which I have contributed, which can be defined only in terms of personal achievements.
So I do not believe in community pride. Nor am I ashamed of belonging to it. As an individual I cannot claim credit either to its brightness nor responsibility to its blots, because there are too many vectors, inside and outside, acting upon it.
So I do not understand Nationalistic, linguistic, relgious, regionalistic, racist prides. They are shallow and vain. In the same vein I donot understand shame on the ground of belonging to a particular nation, language etc.
I am neither proud nor ashamed to be an Indian. But I can be proud of or ashamed of my actions, of my behaviour towards other people, of my ethics and values, of my achievements and failures. It makes no difference whether I am an Indian or not, it makes no difference whether I am in India or elsewhere.

Dear Shekhar!! I held these opinions while I was in India being one of the billion or so warm bodies making up the population. But as soon as you step out of those borders, you have an indelible branding on the forehead that screams one is a 'desi' or one of the subcontinent countries' son or daughter... one cannot fight it , one just takes it on as part of his or her identity and moves along. There is NO 'sublime, citizen of the world' notion anywhere in the world Shekhar.... we are divisive, we are discriminating and we are territorial.

[Sudhaama]

Dear Friends,

Every Man (Person) feels proud ... rather ELATED... of his several POSSESSIONS...

... either being born wise... with Rich knowledge in any one or more subjects...

.. or for the appreciatiation by others on any one factor.. of his achievements, accomplishments etc.

..or for his Richness by Wealth...

... or for being born in a family of high Fame.. or personally...through a Father, Mother or to Relative by blood-relation ... proud to quote..

... or born in a country .. CONSIDERED GREAT... in one way or other...

So to say.. an American can say ... I feel proud to be an American... because MY COUNTRY America is great because of.... Reasons...

... and a Japanese ... or Chinese... or any other National...can also boast proudly...

... and similarly an INDIAN ALSO can say .. I feel proud to be an Indian... because India is Great... due to... so and so... Reasons...

.I don't think ... there is anything wrong to feel Glad by such AUTO- SUGESTIONs...

... EACH IN THEIR OWN WAY which is No doubt a Healthy-Spirit....

But at the same time... anybody should not limit himself by HEARTY- SPIRIT within that BOUNDS of one Nation... but beyond too.

... by developing his OUTLOOK .. towards the Spirit of UNIVERSAL- LOVE... the Global-citizen spirit... of treating ANY other man (Person) equally to himself.by worth as a Human-being.

Rather.. Nobody should... SAY or MEAN ... or even THINK... that

... MY COUNTRY IS GREAT !!.... WHEREAS YOURS IS...." NOT" !!!

[mellon]

we are divisive, we are discriminating and we are territorial.

I dont know about others but "I" am part of the "we" for sure! :)

Thanks, Cygnus, for properly educating highly-educated, kind, gentleman, Mr. Shekhar! :lol:

[dev]

The first time I applied in person - 8th floor of a govt building. While returning we were informed by the lift operator that the lift is meant for going up ONLY - so we all walked 8 floors down

These are all the govt's strategy to keep its citizens healthy...Don't U feel so???!!! :lol:

[Shekhar]

Dear Shekhar!! I held these opinions while I was in India being one of the billion or so warm bodies making up the population. But as soon as you step out of those borders, you have an indelible branding on the forehead that screams one is a 'desi' or one of the subcontinent countries' son or daughter... one cannot fight it , one just takes it on as part of his or her identity and moves along. There is NO 'sublime, citizen of the world' notion anywhere in the world Shekhar.... we are divisive, we are discriminating and we are territorial.

Cygnus,
I have not understood what you are trying to say. 'We are divisive.." means who. The Indians? The world population in general? The world treat Indians because, Indians are divisive?!!

But I am not talking about citizen of the world notion at all. As an individual I have no control on how the one community of the world treats an other community. That is not the issue I am probing. What I am talking about is my feeling and my stand as an Individual towards the country I belong. That is in my control.

Again.. My identity is an accident. My individuality is my choice and achievement.

Regarding absence of 'Citizen of the world' notion. When you generalise you miss out a important part of the truth. And most of the times it is that part of the truth, that makes a difference to our lives. It is those individuals who are not part of the mass, who make difference to life and this world. I am fortunate to have friends from half a dozen countries who are above the community pride that have talked about. For me it is those half a dozen people who matter than a dozen billion people.
No one can insult you without your approval.

[nirosha sen]

I know one thing for sure - Indians in India, sure enjoy more civil rights than those of us, here in a faraway land, Pa!!

[krishnan]

Given below is a link to an article by Prof.Vidyasagar. Actually this article is targeted towards NRI's planning to return to India, and has been doing rounds in mailing lists. I believe it's also discussed in "Forumhub" around 2000. Eventhough this topic is different from the subject of article I feel it is worth reading it here since the author analyzes the pros and cons of being in India on many issues.

http://atcweb.atc.tcs.co.in/~sagar/scit.html

[Sudhaama]

// The first time I applied in person - 8th floor of a govt building. While returning we were informed by the lift operator that the lift is meant for going up ONLY - so we all walked 8 floors down//]

// dev ..These are all the govt's strategy to keep its citizens healthy...Don't U feel so???!!! :lol //

Is it correct .. that it was... "Eight" floors (!!)... to walk-down??.. INCREDIBLE.

No doubt such a system exists... but to such an extent of 8 Floors !!...

If it is true ... it is too bad.

One of the Main problems of India... is.. CROWD... heavy intensity of Population...

So Crowd-management is a big problem at places of assembly of huge mass. So some of the Architects specify lesser amount of Electrical- Lifts (Elevators) than the quantum required as per standard.. in view of Finanicial-economy as well as Space-constraint.

Besides... most of the people have developed a habit of frequently using the lift just for a single person to get down... while a crowd of people waiting to go up... for whom it is more difficult to climb upwards ... than to alight downwards. So on practical observations... the Consultants have made such a practical solution.

In one of the overseas countries I visited... the Lift-operator at the Ground Floor.. made me wait for half an hour... just for the sake of 3 more persons to join with me.. since as per their Rules.. the lift must carry a minimum of 4 persons at a time... in view of economy and operational convenience.... similar to the Car-rules in Singapore..

Situations, Attitude of the people and Rules..... vary from country to country..

[nirosha sen]

Alright, here's my list of the negative of being Indian, Pa :

The Caste System - It just hounds you and permeates the most successful of Indians no matter where we are or how many generations down the line you maybe!!

It's been something I'm particularly ashamed of and have yet to explain the concept of it to either of my children!! They have yet to know the difference and I dread the day when I have to have that particular topic brought up as part of their heritage!

The Heterogeneous Make-Up - I have had a tug-of-war over this one for as long as I can remember, Pa!! This innate difference inherited from the Aryan/Dravidian theory that dogs only Indians in M'sia as opposed to the other races like Malays and the Chinese.

We look different and have our own, language, cuisine,etc. Certainly, it's something to rejoice somewhat over the choices and yet, it also serves to pull us apart and delineats that imaginary line, not to get too close!!

These differences also provides ample ammunition for a lot of of outsiders from as far away as Europe who came to colonise the Indian sub-continent!! It's always been my worst nightmare, in keeping other races from knowing too much abt these differences, so as not to let them exploit them as issues, Pa!!

[a.ratchasi]

It's always been my worst nightmare, in keeping other races from knowing too much abt these differences, so as not to let them exploit them as issues, Pa!!

We dont need outsiders to provide a venue to exploit us, Niro. We Indians are pretty much doing that among ourselves wery well.

The following scenario gets on my nerves.
It shows the ugliest side of being an Indian in Malaysia.

You are proud of your ethnicity just as I am of mine. You tell the Chinese and the Malays of the difference between your ethnicity and the majority of Indians. This far, it's fair enough. But why is there a need to put down the majority of Indians just to show how great your own little group of people are. I despise this. And this happens only among (Malaysian) Indians. I dont see the Chinese claiming to have a higher ground just because they are Hokkiens, Cantonese, Hakka, and etc. Why? Are these beings so hard up for attention that they forget they are also part of the 2.5 million people called Indians? This is exactly why Indians in general are looked down by other races, thanks to the 'highy intelligent' species who insist of being called as member of their ethnic group rather than Indians!Moreso, they also expect the Chinese and Malays to adhere to it!

[hehehewalrus]

Is it correct .. that it was... "Eight" floors (!!)... to walk-down??.. INCREDIBLE.
No doubt such a system exists... but to such an extent of 8 Floors !!...
If it is true ... it is too bad.


Ok here's the full story. Get a coffee and enjoy :D
My friend and I decided to file our taxes ourselves and save the Rs.250 that goes to a consultant. So we took half day leave from office and started from home at 7.30. We thought of skipping breakfast, do the filing by 10 and reach office by 11 AM.

We reached at 9.15 and the Tax Office was on the 8th floor of a 14 storey building. There was a hospital on Floors 3 and 4. There is only one lift and a queue of 30 people for waiting for it. 10 will be taken up at a time by the operator. We stood in queue and got to 8th Floor.

There was not a single person - all 70 desks were empty. We went to the Floor 3(Hospital) to wait. We were seated at a bench. There was a conversation coming from the nearby room of hospital staff - "I found a dead rat in the toilet. Leave it, we will report it on Monday, lets go home after lunch" :lol2: :lol2: :lol2:

The first tax official came by 10.15AM. We got the forms from him and filled it. But it seems we need a xerox of one form and the officer sent us to a xerox machine on the same floor.

The xerox operator refuse to xerox 2 copies. He asked us to get it done outside. Behind the guy was a notice "OUTSIDERS, DO NOT ARGUE WITH THE OPERATOR" :lol2: So we had to go out now.

When we went to the lift, there were 3 other people waiting for it. The operator told us to walk down saying the lift is only for going up. We walked down 8 floors and asked a nearby shopkeeper for the nearest xerox shop. He directed us to the left. We went for half a kilometer, no shop around. We asked another guy who said a xeroxwala exists to the right of the office! Now we covered the half kilometer on the left and a further half kilometer on the right! Since we were short of change, we took just one copy of the form. Walked back to the office.

Now it was 11.00 and being a 14 storey building, queue for the lift was long. We decided to WALK up 8 floors, rather than waste 20 more minutes.

But the officer told us we had xeroxed the wrong form. So previous step was repeated as before :lol2: :lol2: :lol2:

The time is 12:00. We climbed up 8 floors again and the officer asked us to wait. Since his son was trying for a software job, he asked our emails and gave us chairs to sit down :)

An attractive young lady in her early twenties went to the next officer to file her returns. The guy told her it was lunch time. The board behind him says LUNCH: 12:15 PM to 1:15 PM. Lady argues, but no use. She gets very upset. A younger guy sitting in the office gives out a whistle and some of the other staff start laughing at her arguments. "COME AT 1:30", they tell her firmly.

Seeing all this I and friend whisper to each other that in comparison, we were getting VIP treatment :lol2: :lol2: :lol2:

Finally, everything done, we walk out of the door at 12:30 and walk down 8 floors(for the THIRD time). Having proudly covered 8x5 = 40 floors by foot(on empty stomach), we were confident of making an attempt at Mount Everest one day. Reached office after lunch at 2:30 PM

Moral: Don't think extra effort will get the job done. I only lost 5+ hours doing something on my own. Pay what should be paid and get what is legitimately yours. And dont fight the system or complain about it. Just smile, your happiness depends only on you :lol2:

[HindustaniLadka]

One great benefit of being Indian is being able to laugh at the clowns that post in this forum:

http://www.pakistanidefenceforum.com/index.php

Look under any of the threads in the military forums and you will see what i mean.

[jaiganes]

Walrus, you were not prepared for Indian bureaucracy as your father's 'pals' had spiled you by doing everything for you. As a person who has had considerable experience in standing in queues and climbing govt. office stairs, I can tell you this. This country doesn't give you instructions to do each and everything. So as an Indian, I am more aware of the ways and workings of government and always a step ahead and as a result, battle hardened to face any bureaucracy (big companies with "process" focus is a good example). Walrus made a mistake of not equipping himself with the prior knowledge of what was required before entering the office. If it had been US consulate, he would have double checked all the required forms thousand times. This is the problem. As an Indian I have a huge disrespect for anything associated with government, excepting IITs, RECs and few other anomalies.
India is a sleeping giant which has woken up to the need of reforms only now(for the past 14 years). As Indians we carry the cynicism all around us. The satirical wit about everything , including things that we admire is uniquely Indian. This cynicism is however the shock absorber, without which we will never be able to tolerate the happenings of our daily life. We are able to hear shocking news, scandals and violence everyday and still remain unscathed emotionally due to this very cynical attitude which has generous amounts of satire and dark humour. We see public figures whom we imagined as our role models crashing and burning in scams and scandals and are yet able to pull out of sorrow and disillusionment, which would have otherwise destroyed us.
We are resourceful and merciless when it come to survival and as an Indian I have some inbuilt instincts of street smartness which enables me to travel al over the world and yet blend in and be successful. At the same time we don't lose our unique identity and wear the new foreign identity more as a second skin enabling us to survive while retaining the "clever desi" soul deep within to be brought out for counsel in times of distress.
Focus on family is one thing that sets an Indian apart anywhere. An Indian more often than not remains devoted to his/her family and makes enormous personal sacrifices to remain attached to the family as it is the tighly knit family that gives us the strength to compete with everyone else in the globe. One Indian succeding is equal to his entire family and sometimes even the extended family succeding in the daily struggle to conquer poverty. So when I think of being an Indian, I remember
1. Cynicism and satirical attitude to life which means that I am not terribly disappointed if I dont make 50 $ a day.(some times this attitude restricts Indians to being more content with where they are and less ambitious)
2. Committed to family and building strong network of relations.
3. Strong survival insticts and ability to blend in alien environment.

If you guys understand my posting! Then u have done better than me, coz I haven't understood what I wrote. :wink: :lol:

[dev]

JG, :clap:

Etho purinja maathirum iruku,puriyaatha maathirium iruku... :wink:

[Badri]

Hey JG: Good job mate. Yes, I can understand where you are coming from, bcos this very morning I was thinking of the same thing- the cynicism that is such a hallmark of our nature. I wanted to post that in reply to hehewalrus' post, but was too busy this morning to compose a reply. In fact, while coming to work, I was actually posting something like "Too much cynicism is injurious to serenity" but got really busy.

[hehehewalrus]

JG,
Your statement that I was 'spoilt' is GROSSLY incorrect. Nowhere did I imply that I expected some tolerance for any compromise on my part. In fact, I dont expect a quarter from any and prepare myself that way. I never mentioned the xeroxing incidentally originally coz that has nothing to do with the real issue that I was talking about.

In India you have to quickly grasp the system and prepare yourself, else you are quite unfit to tackle it. There is a certain degree of masochistic pleasure in Indian life - rushing 15 minutes early so that you are the first to boad the bus/train, being the first in a serpentine queue, outlasting fatigue for 2 hrs in paying off your electricity bill...which you wont get anywhere :lol2:

That said, what I am extremely against is the number of times you often run into a brick wall when you want a legitimate service. A friend of mine was making a long distance train journey of 36 hours and 30min before boarding the train, got his pocket picked, purse, ticket et al. He managed to get a letter from the stationmaster/RPF to travel though. But at the end of it all, shelled out whatever money he had left in his shirt pocket(all of Rs.20 to cover his expenses till his destination) as a bribe to be allowed to board the train!! The guy knew he lost everything and yet demanded whatever was left!! Such inhuman attitudes you will find everywhere. It is precisely this sort of thing that I brutally condemn.

All said and done, there is a sense of satisfaction when you get something done - it is upto you to prepare yourself psychologically for the troubles....The pleasure of stoically losing oneself in a delightful novel which standing in a 2 hour queue to book a ticket(especially when the rest of the chaps in queue are cursing the heat, the powercuts, the opportunistic queue-bargers and derelict clerks at the counter!) is something to be experienced :D

[krishnan]

Hi Walrus,

Do you know if NRI's who are planning to return back to India can apply for PAN beforehand? If so what is the procedure? Can we apply it online? Any info related to it would be appreciated

[hehehewalrus]

hi Krishnan
I would suggest you look up nrilinks.com or sulekha.com. Even timesofmoney.com would be a good site.
More than relying on web, try to get the email id of someone who has just relocated to India. I will find out from friends who relocated and let you know.

[Shekhar]

JG,
My respect for you has gone a couple of notches up. :thumbsup:

[blahblah]

One great benefit of being Indian is being able to laugh at the clowns that post in this forum:

http://www.pakistanidefenceforum.com/index.php

Look under any of the threads in the military forums and you will see what i mean.

Ladka,I was wondering whether you would be able to do something that makes sense on this forum.I am glad that you did it by unearthing this site.You appear to be too much of a patriot and I have anyaway earned the bad name of chasing fools into other forums.So why not attack this paki defence forum together?Sent me a pm if you are ready to murder some of these brigadiers.And be sure that I will be there even if you don't ally yourself with me. :D

[Guyana]

What it is to be Indian for some people:

GUYANA and TRINIDAD CELEBRATE INDIAN ARRIVAL DAYs

On May 5, 1838 the WHITBY arrived in British Guiana (now Guyana) with 244 Indians as indentured laborers, the first of many such ships to follow.

On May 30, 1945 the FATH-AL-RAZAT arrived in Trinidad with 234 Indians as indentured laborers, and the first of many such ships to follow as well.

Both Guyana and Trinidad, as well as Suriname and several islands located in the Caribbean region, were the destination of hundreds of thousands of Indians brought as indentured laborers, most of whom remained in those lands and raised future generations of Indians who excelled in all facets of life and contributed to the development of those countries at all levels.

This year on May 5 Guyana celebrates INDIAN ARRIVAL DAY with many national and regional ceremonies and services marking the 167th anniversary.

Shortly afterwards on May 30 Trinidad celebrates its 160th anniversary of INDIAN ARRIVAL DAY with events throughout the island nation, with the participation of a 160-person Government of India delegation.

The Global Organization of People of Indian Origin (GOPIO) pays honored tribute and expresses grateful thanks to those who made those first journeys from India to those far away lands for the promise of a better life.

"We are always reminded of their pioneering spirit, determination, persistence and endurance under extremely harsh conditions. While survival must have been the primary concern, they managed to maintain their sense of origin, traditions, culture and religion", said Ashook Ramsaran, Secretary General of GOPIO. Mr. Ramsaran, who was born in Guyana as a third generation Indian, continues, "Their children, grandchildren and following generations will always take pride in this unique accomplishment, recognizing and appreciating the sacrifices and achievements made on their behalf".

"We continue to encourage and support active promotion of the rich and enduring Indian traditions that served their forefathers so well", said Inder Singh, President of GOPIO. He continues, "We also wish to remind all the descendents of those early pioneers to recognize and reach out to others of Indian origin whose forebears also embarked on similar journeys".

[Guyana]

It also happens to be my birthday once again today. So I am celebrating two in one :D

[Guyana]

:P

Post edited by removal.

[nirosha sen]

Belated birthday greetings, dear Urme! :D Hope you had a good birthday bash to celebrate.

Today happens to be my son's birthday, so it's nice to hear of yours too!!

Thanks for the infor. on Carribean born Indians!! You actually have a special commemoration day??? That's great Pa!! Wish we could have the same here in Malaysia, too!

By the way to correct any typos in your posting, just click the edit icon on the top, right hand corner of your posting; and you'd be able to do the necessary changes. :)

[Guyana]

Hi Nirosha,

Just got back from celebrations. I have been dancing my life away for the last eight hours. Had lots of fun, laughter and joy and of course came home with a red and white rose :D

My birthday seems to be the same day as your son's - 6th May, so it is not belated.

Actually its the first time Guyana celebrated Indian Arrival Day. So it was a big thing. I hope to see this on a yearly basis.

Thanks for telling me how to correct my mistakes.

God its bedtime now after four glasses of wine.

[Guyana]

Nirosha,

I have something in my mind I want to share. You see if we don't find ways to reinforce heritage, culture and traditions, we could end up like Jacob. Remember his younger brother went and claimed that Jacob was dead, just to inherit the throne by denying Jacob his birthright. Jacob was put through all sorts before he regained his rightful place as ruler. This was never part of Indian culture where the standard was set by Bharat who had the opportunity to take over Ram's throne, but refused it. I hope this aspect of "Indianess" is preserved by Indians.

Very often we see on this very forum how descendants of Indian indenture-ship are being treated and looked upon. But we should learn to be stronger to rid ourselves of such incumbrances.

For those who have lost track of Indianness, let me remind you its not out of culture to drink wine. Alcohol is used by Hindus on occassions like the celebrations of Holi. I am saying this because I know of the mentality of some people here and how that often gets manipulated by "outsiders".

[Guyana]

Nirosha,

Just for information, you will find some issues on Malaysia under the first website of Global Organization of People of Indian origin:

http://www.jahaji.netfirms.com/reviews/gopio_news_bulletin.htm
http://www.gopio.net/

[nirosha sen]

Thanks for the infor. Urme! Will certainly enjoy reading up on GOPIO's activities. :D

[Niranjana]

HIIIIII! I love being an Indian

[Guyana]

[tscii:a7165cd05b]There were sugarcane estates in Fiji too, why bug only Guyanese. You are just "jealous" of the fact that Guyanese people kept the religion to the extent they do. You are in the wrong place, read the GOPIO web good, you will find Lankan slaves went to Surinam (Dutch Guyana) :twisted:

. http://muse.jhu.edu/cgi-bin/access.cgi?uri=/journals/callaloo/v027/27.2mehta.html&session=45365124
. http://www.landofsixpeoples.com/gynewsjs.htm
- History versus fiction: Documenting Madrasi culture
(Moses Nagamootoo, Hendree's Cure (Peepal Tree Press, 2000)


Could this be the reason why you hate Guyanese and Hindus so much. Ok go on hating me. I can tell you now I am not from Corentyne Berbice.

From GOPIO 2004 conference:

http://www.gopio.net/pio_corner/pm_fiji.doc

"Segregation was so rigid that no Indian could even walk up the steps to the office of the Colonial Sugar Refining Company, an Australia sugar milling company that held sway over the Fiji economy for decades and kept Indian cane farmers servile and subservient to their whims and wishes" :o

I also like these to the highest levels: :x


· deliberate delays in court proceedings to thwart justice

. "...That also brings me to the role that international organisations such as the UN, the European Commission and the Commonwealth should play in fighting against human rights violations and State sponsored racial discrimination. I personally am very disappointed with the response of these institutions, and in particular, the Commonwealth. There are international instruments which safeguard against the violation of human rights; but how often, and how effectively, are they invoked to deal with crisis situations? "


Many of you would recall my old posts (about my British experiences - in the British universities (I written up extensively on various parts of this forum, some of which still exist as to how they cooperate on such issues - there is no escape), as a law student, in the English Courts and the European Courts of Human Rights) from 2002 to 2003 on this very hub with significant interferences (all of which added to me being stressed out) by British agents as I was writing to expose the truth. The webiste of Andrew Yiannides ( Greek man residing in Britain) is still there to support such truths:

http://www.uk-human-rights.org/corruptbritain.htm
http://www.uk-human-rights.org/theproof.htm

N.B. Andrew told the court in August 2003 that he met me at the Court of Appeal (highest one in London) in 2000 in relation to tampered court documents and files. This part as other significant parts are missing from the transcript (since it is important to cover that I met Andrew "after" my complaints of such similar things Andrew was well aware of and was writing about on his web) of that hearing. A copy of that transcript is with the Canadian Minister of External Affairs some months now, who was asked by me to request to listen to the tape and compare it with the transcript to see how material parts are missing and information that were never mentioned by any party in Court are on the transcript, all of which support the defendant (Leeds University) :roll: The matter is ongoing.

There is lots to read here until my next visit which could be months.
[/tscii:a7165cd05b]

[nirosha sen]

Thanks for referring us to those well-written chronicles, Urme!!

Yes, I'm well aware of the discriminatory nature of early inhabitants of Indian origin when I first read, A House for Mr Biswas by V S Naipaul. Frankly, I wasn't shocked at all but merely acknowledged the anomalies inherent in the various Indian communities.

Not only Caribbean Indians but even those from the Mauritius and Fiji Islands, had a kind of snooty attitude!! Matter of fact, the man I met was a Southie by origin, but he was so grotesquely servile towards only North Indian culture that I was appalled! But later, I found out it was due to a kind of mental siege inherited thru the years of subjugated living with their Northie fellow Indians!

As for a certain Annoyance that had been plaguing us lately, well the Admin. had taken care of him with banishment!! :wink:

[Guyana]

Yes, he was too agressive, abusive and made too many misjudgments and he did it to me before in other threads where he came as FTRSS. There has been a series of it in different threads over a year ago by others like him, although in milder tones when they regarded "us" as sland people, people who have lost culture, not Indians (indicated to me to go to my own community), being "stink" and have culture like hispanics, go write to every slave child, referred to as slaves and in particular Guyanese women as mistresses of Englishmen (sugarcane matresses) based on the movie - Guiana 1838.

I don't have the time to list the Chronology of such insults and abuse with respect to references to threads, since it would take time in going through the threads etc. These people are all Tamils and some are from India. So when I made that statement about comparing the situation of Bharat and Jacob and used words like "incumbrances", I knew very well what I was writing about.

Now I am with my community whether we are slaves or whatever, so what is the problem?

Today's Guyanese have no sense of north or south or fair or dark differences amongst Tamils and Indians. All are regarded as Indians. It is on this forum, I learnt of such differences and I "do not" support any form of ill treatment of Tamils as minorities or any minority groups in any part of the world. I thought that was always clear. But of course, that gets lost when the issues are so diverse and get complex at one stage or the other. But one thing I have learnt, as a human being, you can't be everything to every body.


Well the main reason I came back to forum is to state that I note some comments in other threads which could be directed at my recent postings in this tread. If I am right, then I would like to refer such hubbers to what I said in my first two paragraphs above in this post. Good thing is, everything here can be traced including liars and their "motives" for telling lies or for doing what they were doing or say they were doing, can also be traced. Some of them are not even Indians or Tamils although they carry names that indicate so. Yes, its that bad.

[nirosha sen]

Well I for one, would definitely encourage you to keep posting abt our common heritage!! Like you said earlier, if we don't make an attempt, we'd have a lost generation of Indians in time to come. So just embrace, the good, bad and ugly, Pa!! That's why they call it history - Mankind's Story!! :)

[Guyana]

My dear, I note what you say and fully agree and as much as I would like to contribute more regularly, I just can't afford it. I will come when need be - I can't say I will come when I have the time. You know what I mean. Leave me a mail message if for example, there is something to draw my attention to.

Next time I hope to show you a new me.

Until, take care and keep up the good thoughts and spirit :D

[Guyana]

Nirosha! Hope some people can accept the contrast in us here today :), but both are western versions of Indian females.

Had a candy in my mouth, that's all it is :wink:

[nirosha sen]

:D Nice Bob you are sporting too!!

Yeah, my avatar looks great in both the traditional as well as Western!! I always feel the Indian woman should be comfortable in both attire and not feel out of place in either, Pa!!

[Guyana]

Hey! We have certainly met "cross cultural" acceptance, not that I need it though.

My hair-do did not turn out as I would have liked :oops:, but I am sporting it anyway.

:P Catch you later.

[HindustaniLadka]

Yes, he was too agressive, abusive and made too many misjudgments and he did it to me before in other threads where he came as FTRSS. There has been a series of it in different threads over a year ago by others like him, although in milder tones when they regarded "us" as sland people, people who have lost culture, not Indians (indicated to me to go to my own community), being "stink" and have culture like hispanics, go write to every slave child, referred to as slaves and in particular Guyanese women as mistresses of Englishmen (sugarcane matresses) based on the movie - Guiana 1838.

I don't have the time to list the Chronology of such insults and abuse with respect to references to threads, since it would take time in going through the threads etc. These people are all Tamils and some are from India. So when I made that statement about comparing the situation of Bharat and Jacob and used words like "incumbrances", I knew very well what I was writing about.

Now I am with my community whether we are slaves or whatever, so what is the problem?

Today's Guyanese have no sense of north or south or fair or dark differences amongst Tamils and Indians. All are regarded as Indians. It is on this forum, I learnt of such differences and I "do not" support any form of ill treatment of Tamils as minorities or any minority groups in any part of the world. I thought that was always clear. But of course, that gets lost when the issues are so diverse and get complex at one stage or the other. But one thing I have learnt, as a human being, you can't be everything to every body.


Well the main reason I came back to forum is to state that I note some comments in other threads which could be directed at my recent postings in this tread. If I am right, then I would like to refer such hubbers to what I said in my first two paragraphs above in this post. Good thing is, everything here can be traced including liars and their "motives" for telling lies or for doing what they were doing or say they were doing, can also be traced. Some of them are not even Indians or Tamils although they carry names that indicate so. Yes, its that bad.

Nice post Guyana. What i have noticed is that only the Indians that are very Euro-centric or are greatly influenced by white people develop these idiotic skin color biases and north/south biases. If you go to India, no one cares about what side of the country a person is from or what color their skin is. Europeans on the other hand, are unable to understand that Indians come in all skin colors, but still live together peacefully. They expect us to be enslaving and destroying each otehr like they do, so they go around trying to make our society like theirs.

One thing i find hillarious is that many Europeans seem to think that Indian actresses like Priyanka Chopra, Aishwarya Rai, Keerti Reddy, Shilpa Shetty and Kareena Kapoor are European just because they have fair skin. They also seem to think that an Indian with darker skin is of a different race than an Indian with lighter skin. That is like saying Northern Europeans are of a different race than Southern Europeans are of a different race just because Southern Europeans generally have darker skin. Anway, if what they say is true, my parents are of a different race than me because their skin tone is somewhat different than mine.


My point is that i really wish Indians would stop classifying themselves as north or south Indian...doing so only leads to hatred.

[P_R]

My point is that i really wish Indians would stop classifying themselves as north or south Indian...doing so only leads to hatred. Not necessarily. Our nation is anything but homogenous so we are classified as different. We are different but I don't see any reason why that leads to hatred if we can be mature about it !

[HindustaniLadka]

Well, we are racially homogeneous...so that should be enough. We are not linguistically homogeneous, but overall Indian culture(North and South alike) is generlaly the same. We celebrate the same major festivals, pray to the same gods, etc. There are only minor differeneces(for example, Punjabi grooms do not wear turbans at their weddings, but Andhra grooms do) when it comes to culture and a lot of those differences can be attributed to the varying geography of India(food and clothing for example).

[Badri]

Well, we are racially homogeneous...so that should be enough..

Seen that way, we are also homogenous as a species, considering that we all are Homo sapiens

Why even bother then with distinctions such as Indian or non-Indian? After all, we are all one species! May be not geographically homogenous, but as a species, we are.

What's more, we all belong to the Animal Kingdom, so as a Kingdom too we are homogenous. Amoebas to cockroaches to chimpanzees to humans all are not generically homogenous, but as a Kingdom we are!!

:D

[a.ratchasi]

:rotfl:

[P_R]

Well, we are racially homogeneous... A strong sense of deja vu. We are back at the same point. And I am going to ask the same question. Is your conception of India built on this notion of racial homegeneity ? Without racial homogeneity we can't be a nation eh ? So the NE separatist claims are racially justified ? Or are you going to say thay are the same race too !

[Roshan]

Well, we are racially homogeneous...so that should be enough..

Seen that way, we are also homogenous as a species, considering that we all are Homo sapiens

Why even bother then with distinctions such as Indian or non-Indian? After all, we are all one species! May be not geographically homogenous, but as a species, we are.

What's more, we all belong to the Animal Kingdom, so as a Kingdom too we are homogenous. Amoebas to cockroaches to chimpanzees to humans all are not generically homogenous, but as a Kingdom we are!!

:D

:rotfl: :poke:

badri,

This is something typical of your udan piRavaa sagOtharan Kumar. Good reply anyways ! :lol:

[Sandeep]

BEING INDIAN.

Does anyone has any real answer for this. What it means to each one of us.

I found some here who seem very upset about the current situation of India. As if every thing is fine every where else.

For me being Indian is about identifing myself with something some thing, may be very subtle like the flag, the geographical structure, the history etc.

[HindustaniLadka]

Badri, if everyone looked at the world that way, we would have a perfect world.

Anyway, Indians are racially homogeneous for the most part. I know there are people in the eastern areas that are somewhere between Indian and Chinese, but they are a minority. The NE seperatist movement is not legitimate. None of the seperatist movements in India are legitimate.

[Guyana]

I was amazed this morning when I woke up at the number of good responses made while I was asleep. I should change my picture a few more times - this will allow for a closer view of what I really look like.


Hindustaniladka,

Thanks for your compliments.

[Badri]

Badri, if everyone looked at the world that way, we would have a perfect world.

Anyway, Indians are racially homogeneous for the most part. I know there are people in the eastern areas that are somewhere between Indian and Chinese, but they are a minority. The NE seperatist movement is not legitimate. None of the seperatist movements in India are legitimate.

Will someone hit me over the head for missing out on this? :shock:

But when did we ever start talking of seperatist movements in this thread? I thought we were going on about the homogenity of all creation!

:huh:

Where did this come in from? HL, methinks you have a bee in your bonnet.

[HindustaniLadka]

Well, we are racially homogeneous... A strong sense of deja vu. We are back at the same point. And I am going to ask the same question. Is your conception of India built on this notion of racial homegeneity ? Without racial homogeneity we can't be a nation eh ? So the NE separatist claims are racially justified ? Or are you going to say thay are the same race too !

Badri, i was responding to this post by Prabhu Ram.

[nirosha sen]

We are ethnically homogenous??? Is that really true??? Because I thought I had learned it otherwise, from my history/geo. textbooks, Pa!! :roll:

[P_R]

Anyway, Indians are racially homogeneous for the most part. I know there are people in the eastern areas that are somewhere between Indian and Chinese, but they are a minority. The NE seperatist movement is not legitimate. None of the seperatist movements in India are legitimate. Good ! So you acknowledge that there is atleast one other race is India and you also state that , that does not make a case for separation. Lovely ! I am with you till here.
So, for Indian-unity a concept like racial homegeneity is superfluous, right ? Then why talk about racial homogeneity at all. Because if we harp on it, we end up making it the very cornerstone. Somebody shakes that (all you need is a dork with a genetic research lab and a few inches of newsprint) and our definition shakes. That is why we say we are a mature 58 year old nation which is going to redefine nationhood as the world knows it.

The problem is when we try to fit India into a definition of a nation that derives its strenth from some form of homegeneity or the other.

[HindustaniLadka]

We are ethnically homogenous??? Is that really true??? Because I thought I had learned it otherwise, from my history/geo. textbooks, Pa!! :roll:

Yeah, most history textbooks are incorrect about many things theses days, especially about India. Don't take anything you read in a history textbook too seriously because they are usually biased towards Europe.

-deleted-

[nirosha sen]

moderator's note: sorry. this post has to go, as it becomes irrelevant after the deletion of the post above.

[Roshan]

yabbA suththi suththi AIT-ku vanthutaangappA vanthutaanga :lol: I think that was the underlying motive of HL - to somehow bring up the never ending AIT issue and repeat the 'History and Culture' here. I'm damn sure this thread is going to get deleted soon. 8)

[scorpio]

and Roshan, people will ask me innocently which all threads were deleted and why!!!! :wink:

[P_R]

If you look at all these random theories about India, you can see that their only goal is to divide and rule over India by spreading incorrect ideas. A theory motivated to divide people. Fine. How do you combat that.
a) By saying theory is wrong
b) By saying even if theory were right it makes no case for partition

You make case a) I make case b). Because case a) is risky. If tomorrow , due to some unfortunate advancement in our horizons, it is proved that the the theory were right then your argument would lead one to support partition on racial lines.

[suressh]

:)


and Roshan, people will ask me innocently which all threads were deleted and why!!!! :wink:

- yeah... i agree... :twisted:

:)

[Roshan]

and Roshan, people will ask me innocently which all threads were deleted and why!!!! :wink:

Yeah I agree !!! Thats their tactic.. posing an innocent face and creating all troubles. 'vaazhai pazhathula oosi yEthura maathiri' . Unfortunately that's one important aspect which is overlooked by the hub admin team. :cry:

Suresh,
enna aaLaiyE kaanOm. 'ulagam' pakkam neenga thalai kaatti romba naaLaachu. I have to mail you and I'll do it soon. :)

[nirosha sen]

Perhaps Nov, being moderator or RR, could put in a few words then???!!

[NOV]

sigh....

what else is there to say Nirosha?
Discussions on AIT is prohibited. Any further discussions on the subject will be deleted and the poster warned.
Please! Enough is enough.

[nirosha sen]

Sigh.......and I'm the one with the tagline, "Demand a broader view", Pa!! :?

[suressh]

:)

// I always saw every inhabitant of India as a member of the "Indian" race.//

- oh yeah...??? but you always call non-hindi's as FOOLS.... right?

// If you look at all these random theories about India, you can see that their only goal is to divide and rule over India by spreading incorrect ideas. //

- what is your goal by addressing non-hindis as FOOLS my dear ?

:)

[suressh]

:)

Roshan,

yeah.. i know i am regularly irregular to the hub... :)

vanthaal padikkave nEram sariyaaka uLLathu...

anyway... it is quite sometime since we exchanged mails. can u take up the initiative please. puNNiyamaa pOgum... :lol:

:)

[Nichiro]

Dear Friends,
Being a common man is most difficult thing in India.
I pay my tribute to Indian Common Man with a Haiku.


Being An Indian

Being an Indian , is Appearing
on front page of Times of India
As common man of substance.


Nichiro

[Shekhar]

Wilful aberration of truth to suit our argument is self defeating. It takes us no where.
People who take India, or any country, forward, are not blind patriots like HL, but level headed people whose perceptions are clear. Who are well aware and appreciative of good aspects of other societies and negative aspects of their own.
If I say all the muck around me is nothing nauciating and revel in it, or say that it doesn't exist, then I can't make a difference.
I think to take pride in our achievements of the present, rather than relics of the past, only will motivate us to better quality of life.
I feel more proud of the Indian scientists and engineers all over the world, of the common man of substance that Nichiro talks about, of my own commitment and excellence in my own job, than great names of history.
The greatest contributions to the society have been made by unemotional level headed people who have derived happiness from indvidualitic excellece, without an iota of patriotic fervor.

[nirosha sen]

That was well said Shekhar! Your cool, level-headed argument has certainly put a dash of cold water of reason to a much debated subject, Pa!! :D

[P_R]

Excellent post Shekar ! All that you said applies universally but this one line stood out:
Who are well aware and appreciative of good aspects of other societies and negative aspects of their own. IMO this is the defining aspect of Indiannness. The thing is we are aware and appreciative of good aspects of other societies and that is why I feel India will redefine the concept of the nation. But are we really ready willing to open up to our faults.
For instance India's balti on Nepal. How can we pride our democracy, when our commitment to democracy amounts to nought ? The reason, we need to quell the maoists otherwise they'll get into India and be of extreme nuisance value. So ? Is any stand justified ? Ask that and you are an unpatriotic wretch !

[Guyana]

I have some concerns about statements about posting "innocent face" and causing all troubles. I was asleep when various post were made and parts deleted, so its difficult to follow what exactly went on. I hope those statements were not meant for me. I was never here to cause any trouble. Besides all, I do have an innocent face, in pictures and in person as I am being told all the time (last told by a male in person two days ago :D) To a large extent, the face is a true reflection of the state of the heart/mind :wink:

Sometimes we must enjoy "truth" sublimed, with a good sense of humour :)

[nirosha sen]

I'll certainly support your concern Urme!! Anyways, we were hardly discussing anything else except on Indian heritage Pa!! So, don't worry!! We should continue with our discussion as before! :D

[HindustaniLadka]

:)

// I always saw every inhabitant of India as a member of the "Indian" race.//

- oh yeah...??? but you always call non-hindi's as FOOLS.... right?

// If you look at all these random theories about India, you can see that their only goal is to divide and rule over India by spreading incorrect ideas. //

- what is your goal by addressing non-hindis as FOOLS my dear ?

:)

When did i call people who do not speak Hindi fools? I only called anti-Hindi/Sanskrit zealots fools. Oh, and you do realize that i am a Telugu right? So, if i actually said that all non-Hindi spaking Indians are fools, i would be insulting myself.

[Guyana]

edited

[Guyana]

edited

[Guyana]

[quote="Guyana"][tscii:f9d5a2821f]Why some of us are not considered Indians today or accused of not returning to India because of only being fit (see Davie's post back in the British ruling thread in indian history section) for low jobs (indicating that India had no such jobs available), lost Language etc.:

"..Meanwhile between December 1842 and January 1843 the immigrants'five-year contracts were expected to expire. When Indians realized that ships would not be available to repatriate them, many refused to work or accept rations.

Eventually two ships, the Louisa Baillie and the Water Witch were chartered to convey them to Calcutta. Altogether 236 immigrants embarked, 60 remained, 2 absconded soon after arrival and 98 perished. Thirty repatriates on the Louisa Baillie died on the five-month's passage to India mainly due to a lack of proper clothing" :cry: Then you hear Europeans only talking about "Titanic" :evil:

References:

1 Gov. Henry Light to Lord Glenely, no. 17, 19 July 1838. National Archives of Guyana (hereafter N.A.G.)
2 See R. Farley, “The Rise of the Village Settlements in British Guiana”, Caribbean Quarterly 10 (March 1964): 57
3 See Minutes of the Court of Policy (M.C.P.), 19 June, 1850. N.A.G.
4 Colonial Office (C.O.) 112/21. Lord Russell to Light, no. 56, 15 Feb. 1840.
5 John Gladstone to Messrs. Gillanders, Arbuthnot and Co., 4 Jan. 1836.
6 John Scoble, Hill Coolies. A brief exposure of the deplorable conditions of the Hill Coolies in British Guiana and Mauritius. (London: Harvey and Darton, 1839), p. 5. This pamphlet provides a detailed description of the illtreatment of Indians.
7 Ibid; p. 7.
8 The Royal Gazette, 8 May, 1838.
[/tscii:f9d5a2821f]

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PS. I hope people have a full understanding from their own research and all my referenced post, why people left India (while some were lured and fooled, some became poor due to the notorious looting of India by then), what and what they went through and why they did or did not return and what they have accomplished thereafter.

I can see how some Indians feel about Indians like us returning to India which could very well be the future, perhaps not in my lifetime. Should that be, my recommendation would be for them to occupy a place on their own, like "Ryiad" in Saudi Arabia :wink:

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[Who needs to know, let him see and hear]

[NM]

If I say all the muck around me is nothing nauciating and revel in it, or say that it doesn't exist, then I can't make a difference.

I think to take pride in our achievements of the present, rather than relics of the past, only will motivate us to better quality of life.

I feel more proud of the Indian scientists and engineers all over the world, of the common man of substance that Nichiro talks about, of my own commitment and excellence in my own job, than great names of history.

The greatest contributions to the society have been made by unemotional level headed people who have derived happiness from indvidualitic excellece, without an iota of patriotic fervor.
Superb post, Shekhar! : :thumbsup: :clap: the one in bold is my fav...it is true - even a simple man can and should be proud of himself and his achievements!!

[a.ratchasi]

Wonderful, Shekhar!

The lines after which NM has highlighted could not have been made in a truer sense! :thumbsup:

[Guyana]

>>The greatest contributions to the society have been made by unemotional level headed people who have derived happiness from indvidualitic excellece, without an iota of patriotic fervor<<

Agree. But there is always two sides to the coin and we see arguments from the same people that support both sides conveniently.

".. unemotional level headed people who have derived happiness from indvidualitic excellece"

Not only some degree of this should be allowed for the man affected negatively, but the man not affected negatively, but having vested interest in the same matter, can't speak effectively on behalf of those who have been affected negatively. Who was it that said in a recent post in another thread to the effect "O, it looks like they want to migrate, give me the visa" :o Check this out from May 14th. - http://forumhub.mayyam.com/hub/viewlite.php?t=3369

By the way, I had in mind those very quotes from Shekhar and a recent post from another when I wrote my last posts. What does that say and who is ahead of who and who is defining the problem best? Think about it. I don't want to regurgitate what was already said in other threads and the parameters set for "testing", analyzing and questioning. Take some months to do your review and in the right context.

There is also a good and a bad side to be able to edit post here.

" I feel more proud of the Indian scientists and engineers all over the world, of the common man of substance that Nichiro talks about, of my own commitment and excellence in my own job, than great names of history."

It is in the very "Great names of history", inherent flaws can be found in what you are proud about. And how Indian are you genetically, since you seems to imply that the talent is Indian genetically based? If you are Indian by geography, you can clearly see the flaws in what you are trying to claim. If you care to respond, I shall read, but would not particpate given my priorities and the extent to which this debate can go.

[Shekhar]

:?: :!: :huh: :banghead:

[NM]

:?: [/size] :banghead: [size=18]
yeah me too, banged my head real hard, emoticons not working now!! :lol: :lol:

[Roshan]

:?: :!: :huh: :banghead:

ME MORE THAN THAT !!!!
:banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :x :evil: :twisted: :shock: :shock:

[suressh]

:)

// When did i call people who do not speak Hindi fools? I only called anti-Hindi/Sanskrit zealots fools. //

- dont ask my help to recollect your memory my dear. just go through your entire posts and find out where all u have said it, and where all i have pointed out to you.... 8)

anyway... again u contradict... now you say that YOU DIDNT WANT TO SEE EVERY INHABITANT OF INDIA AS A MEMBER OF THE "INDIAN" RACE - just becuase you think they are anti-hindi / sanskrit.... is it?

// Oh, and you do realize that i am a Telugu right? So, if i actually said that all non-Hindi spaking Indians are fools, i would be insulting myself.//

- yeah... that was exactly what i was talking to you all these days... i am happy u got my point finally.... :wink: :)

:)

[HindustaniLadka]

:)

// When did i call people who do not speak Hindi fools? I only called anti-Hindi/Sanskrit zealots fools. //

- dont ask my help to recollect your memory my dear. just go through your entire posts and find out where all u have said it, and where all i have pointed out to you.... 8)

anyway... again u contradict... now you say that YOU DIDNT WANT TO SEE EVERY INHABITANT OF INDIA AS A MEMBER OF THE "INDIAN" RACE - just becuase you think they are anti-hindi / sanskrit.... is it?

// Oh, and you do realize that i am a Telugu right? So, if i actually said that all non-Hindi spaking Indians are fools, i would be insulting myself.//

- yeah... that was exactly what i was talking to you all these days... i am happy u got my point finally.... :wink: :)

:)

I have never made any posts saying that people who ddo not speak Hindi are fools. Find some evidence before accusing me of saying something like that.

//anyway... again u contradict... now you say that YOU DIDNT WANT TO SEE EVERY INHABITANT OF INDIA AS A MEMBER OF THE "INDIAN" RACE - just becuase you think they are anti-hindi / sanskrit.... is it?//

When the hell did i say that?

[krishnan]

I kinda have a "Tirisingu sorgam" feeling being an Indian. Or is it what people call "Rendum kettan"?

- We are exposed to technology, but at the same time R.K.Laxman's man (common man) in my counrty cannot use it.
- We have world class hospitals and facilities at cheap rates to treat foriegn patients, but at the same time my own country men can't afford for their own treatments.
- We have a reasonably good education system with great institutions, but that dosen't produce enough inventors.
- We are one of the country where most number of students graduates per year, but still around 40% of my countrymen are ill-literates
- A country that calls itself democracy, but can't get rid of political heirs.
- A country that has excellent Rail network and huge public (Read Railway) transportation budget, but has stinking railway stations.
- A country where car manufacturing are outsourced to, but where owning a car is still considered a luxury.
- A country that excelled in Construction / Architecture even before the dawn of modern era, but still about 20% of their citizens are homeless.

Above all who owns the responsibility to correct the portions after the "but" on each line? Is it the people, Government, NGO's, combination of all? Who is in to bell the cat? :Sigh. Now I hear the voices why don't you move your 'butt' out of computer and start doing something to correct the things after those "but's" :)

[Sandeep]

Thats our India Khrishan, As often said India is the country of Bul/ock cart as well as space rockets.

With just 58 years we are a young country with a lot of baggage. Our resources have been exploited to the hilt by foreign rulers, we are split amoug us in all aspects (language, color, religion and caste) and to add to all this a humongous population of 1+ billion.

Still we are as a nation improving at a very good pace. Its our impatience that is making it feel slow.

[nirosha sen]

June 3rd - June 11th - We'll have the honour of a GOPIO festival at the Megamall, K L, M'sia.

I understand there'll be a lot of book sales as well by writers of Indian origin. So, for those who can make it - Be There!!!! :D

[a.ratchasi]

Thanks, Niro.
Will be there to check out!! :)

[lordstanher]

- We are exposed to technology, but at the same time R.K.Laxman's man (common man) in my counrty cannot use it.

My feeling is bcos we r apparently not bringing in the right technology to transform the common man's lives or the country's infrastructure or we r not utilising the technology tat we learn for the right purposes......
For eg. after internet was introduced in India, we seem to've learnt to create porn sites much more rapidly then say, online distance education (I'm not aware of ne Univ./edu. institution in India tat has this facility.....ne-one who knows if it does?)



- We have world class hospitals and facilities at cheap rates to treat foriegn patients

Which ones?? :shock: The only "foreign" patients whom I can think r taking treatment from ne of our hospitals r from our neighbouring countries like Sri Lanka, Nepal & maybe Bangladesh......!



- We are one of the country where most number of students graduates per year, but still around 40% of my countrymen are ill-literates

Hmm.....tat cud be bcos nearly half of the graduate students per year happen to get fake certificates w/out actually studying......? :wink: :lol:



- A country where car manufacturing are outsourced to, but where owning a car is still considered a luxury.

Well, not in the cities ne-more.......there r more no. of ppl. who can actually afford cars- atleast 2nd hand ones- comp'd to my parents' time 25-30 yrs ago......



Now I hear the voices why don't you move your 'butt' out of computer and start doing something to correct the things after those "but's" :)

Yea I hear those voices too when I talk such things......so my qsn. to those voices wud be wat they think they can do?? :wink:

[nirosha sen]

Hmmmm....if you guys think you have it bad despite a free-wheeling democratic process, you should hear some of our woes, Pa!!

Things here are equally sad and trying for us too!!! :cry:

[seonaid]

the MIT has named two planets in the solar system after two girls in coimbatore for their contribution to science senthalir and sharanya.--a coimbatorian in malaysia.

[F.S.Gandhi vandayar]

Dear friends, :)

India is one in the following :

1. Caste discrimination and Untouchability atleast in Indians inner minds if not revealed. (Except 5 % elite group who constitute NRIs)

2. Poverty and Unemployment and economic inequivalent (Except 10 % of Indian citizens)

3. Strong religiosity in mind (Except 2 % -social thinkers)

4. Corruption in its peakest rate.

5. Population explosion.

India is not one in the following :

1. Language

2. Religion & Culture

3. Race in the case of north east India and deep south India

My suggestions to make India one are the following.

1. Make India ‘United states of India’ pattern and diverse the power to states except military & natural resources.

2. Support multi language learning, Propogate cultural fusions and encourage inter caste & inter religious marriages by awarding first preference in employment opportunities.

3. Abolish assets rights as per socialistic pattern followed in Russia which was proposed by Jawaharlal Nehru, the first prime Minister of India and thereby corruption also will be eliminated automatically.

4. Create employment opportunities based on regionalwise preferences.

5. Plan, allocate more in budget and spend for scientific advancement and research and development.

In anyone of these are left out there is sure chance of developing subnationalism which may disintegrate or atleast conflicts nature is unevitable.

f.s.gandhi

[Guyana]

http://www.landofsixpeoples.com/news401/ns402084.htm

Confirms what I said in one of Raghu's recent thread on culture (which can't be found now) about the Hindu museum in Toronto.