Clarification

[nsomu]

We are in the process of forming a Tamil Sangam in this part of the Middle East. There was a petty debate regarding naming the organization. Please (any one) clarify whether we should include Tamil letter "Ch" after "Zh" while writing as "Tamil Sangam" (in Tamil)

[F.S.Gandhi vandayar]

Dear nsomu,

Cha and zh depends on how you weigh on the subject. Thanjavur guys will pressurize everything while talking.

But madurai guys will talk light way.

Sangam,Sangu,santhi(junction) ,sangamam & sambavam have same root 'sam' -means club(ontru seruthal).

'Um' turned 'Am' & 'Am' turned 'sam' =ex. ummuthal,kummuthal,Ammuthal,amalthal,ambalam,amai-avai all have the same meaning (ontru seruthal).

'thirayar molzhi' turned tamilzhi and later as tamilzh.

Hence it is immaterial to workout for the sound that the alphabet produces.

Phylosophically(Imaginery also) If you use 'cha' and 'zh' it may give certainity. If you use l and s it may give cool nature. I think out of India cool nature is required.

[nsomu]

Dear Thiru Gandhi,

Vanakkam. My question was when we write Tamil Sangam in TAMIL, should we include the letter "CH" between Thamizh and Changam.

Your answer is elightening and I would like to talk to you...if you can give me your contact number.

Dr.Somu
00 966 508464462

[F.S.Gandhi vandayar]

Dear thiru nsomu, :D

I am a new guy to saudi Arabia and my present location is in Jeddah working as an engineer.

I have to get 'iqamma' (accredition) you know, from saudi government to get cell no. for operation.

Company phone is there. But it would be not appropriate to talk through that.

Certainly I would talk to you during fridays.

In the meantime you can write a letter to my office.

The address is as follows.

F.S.GANDHI, B.E., Marketing and Quality Engineer,
P.O. Box. No. 2761, Jeddah 21461,
Saudi Arabia. Ph: 966 0 2665 2966 Ext: 406

You are also now in saudi arabia.

Let me know your location.

thank you,

f.s.gandhi

[F.S.Gandhi vandayar]

Dear thiru nsomu,

By the by, I misunderstood your query. Sorry :)

According to tamil grammar 'ch' should be there. 'lzagaram mun chagara ottru eratikkum'- A 'nannul sutthiram'. ottru here consonent.

[nsomu]

Dear Thiru Gandhi,

Thanks for the information. It is surprising to note that most of the Tamil Sangams in the world have no "Ch" on their Logos. Only on four occasions I see "Ch" incorporated. Is it true that Grammar need not be followed while creating Logos... as one of my friends who's family is involved in making sign boards and logos for the past three generations, maintains?.

Dr. Somu
Riyadh

[F.S.Gandhi vandayar]

Dear thiru nsomu,

Tamil is grown language even before 2000 years back.

It is better to follow the grammar to make similarities among different dialects in tamil nadu.

Any amendment in grammar can be made if necessity arises and that too authentical way ( a group of tamil veterans can decide and update the grammar) to accomodate tamil words newly invented that does not match with the grammar.

This was followed in sangam period. The 'nannul' grammar was written by nandi munivar during A.D.470 to accomodate north indian words(they are all shrinked tamil words only). Note nandi munivar's mother tongue is kannada.

After that nowhere in history grammar was changed. Perhaps all kings never bother about tamil during that time.

In my opinion grammatical poetry will long live than artificially created work like 'pudukavithai'.

Logos should also follow grammar. Because it appeals directly to people.

[nsomu]

Thank You Very Much Thiru Gandhi. To you and all those who pass through this forum I wish a Very Happy Parthiba Aandu.

Dr. Somu
Riyadh

[Sudhaama]

Strictly speaking... as per Tamil-Grammar and Nannool Sooththiram...

The first letter Consonant Letter... (Uyir-Mey-Ezhuththu) .. in a word... can have only one pronunciation as... Ka, Cha, Tha.. and so on... unlike other Indian-Languages... .. there can be only ONLY ONE Pronunciation for each letter... as Ka, Ga, Gha... Cha, Jaa, Jha.... and so on..

... Since the Phonetic or the Pronunciation is LETTER-BASED.. in those Languages

... whereas Tamil is the only Language in India... the Phonetics in which are SYLLABLE-BASED ... depending upon the leetersplacement as the case of English.

For example one Tamil letter "CHA"..

...is pronounced as ... CHA... in the word ... ."CHANGU"...

....but... as.... "SA".... in the word.... "KASAI".... and

....and ....in another Tamil word.. as..... "JA"... "PANJAM"

... for the same one and Sole Letter ... "CHA".

But all these Grammar-rules apply when you are writing the word in Tamil Script.

Even if it is a matter of Transliterationof a Tamil-word through English letters... this procedure may be adopted...

Whereas you are not doing either of them... but writing in English... for the convenience of one and all the People... you are going to deal with... especially in a Foreign-country...that too... in Saudi-Arabia... where I too was an Employee at Dhahran as a Senior-Civil-Enginer.... and so I can very well imagine the implications.... you are more concerned with ... than the Theoretical aspect of Tamil-grammar.

Practically speaking ... Non-Tamilians ... know our Language only as TAMIL.

... and the Word ...Sangam.. the adopted word Sanskrit.. . if you write strictly conforming to Tamil-grammatical theory... it will lead to more problems for you than serving its purpose...

... Whereas ... if you write as SANGAM... even Non-Tamilian Indian can easily grasp its meaning... because it is the common word in all the Indian Languages as well as well-known even in Thailand, Singapore, Srilanka , Myanmar, Nepal, Bhutan, Tibet... and so on... where Budhism is prevalent.

So PRACTICALLY SPEAKING... to serve its purpose... the Best option is.

..."TAMIL SANGAM".... for the Common usage... including Name-Board and Govt. Registration.

... whereas in the Transliteration of Tamil word into English.. it can be as...

.... THAMIZH CHANGAM.... in my opinion.

[F.S.Gandhi vandayar]

Dear thiru nsomu,

Thiru sudhaama explained the practical applicabilities of logo/name board writing very well.

In english it can be 'tamil sangam'.

In tamil you can add up 'Ch' in the middle of tamilzh and changam.

All grammar works in tamil speaks only about words, their combination and their junction and not PHONETICS.

Because phonetics is practised through mouth and it can be expressed and transformed to next generations through mouth practice only. This will differ time to time and place to place.

In english somewhat they preserve this by identifying old best known word syllables. In tamil there is no such tradition.

I deviate from sudhaama' s opinion in this. I still not understand the letter based and syllable based phonetics explained in his passage and have doubt about that. I think this explanation is new to tamil.

I request sudhaama to explain more in this.

And one more thing from sudhaama's opinion is about the word sangam. Sangam is a tamil word. It originated from tamil. Its root is um-am-sam. Lot of words are there in tamil. Sangu is an example.

I can proove most of the sanskrit words are from tamil.

I request sudhaama to prove sangam is sanskrit word.

Dravidian parties adapted "kazhagam" a equivalent word of sangam thinking in the same way thiru sudhaama told.

I may open a thread regarding this sankrit-tamil myth.

f.s.gandhi

[nsomu]

Thank you Gandhi and Sudhaama. The discussions are becoming lively now. In principle I agree with Sudhaama's explanation , regarding the pronounciation of Uyir-Mey-Ezhuththu according to its placement in a word. I wish he writes more as Gandhi has requested.

Dr. Somu
Riyadh

[nsomu]

Dear Gandhi and Sudhaama

Nannool is by Pavanadhi or Nandi Munivar ?( or they are one and the same?) . Was there a grammar work also known as Veerasoliam? Are there separate grammar standards for Literature and Poetry?.. I think I am asking too much.!

Why I am asking is, recently we had a Kaviyarangam by one of the great poets from Chennai. During that event, he made a pun of a missing "CH" between the word Thamizh and Sangam (While writing in Tamil) in our Logo. He also said he cannot call himself a Tamil Poet If he is not pointing out this mistake. Initially I thought he could be serious... but then the joke he cracked following that statement made me think that he could not be serious about that!. The crowd (almost 3000 of them) enjoyed his joke rather than giving a thought to the statement he made. I should be following the Pied Piper, If I am not awakened!

I have heard that Poets would always find ways to bend or even break rules to carve a space for themselves. Is it true?

Dr. Somu
Riyadh

[Sudhaama]

[tscii:3d3b5a0979]"nsomu"

// Dear Gandhi and Sudhaama.... Are there separate grammar standards for Literature and Poetry?//

No Separate Grammar... There is one YAAPPILAKKANHAM.. common for the Prose and the Verse as the Composition-Standard -code.

// ..... missing "CH" between the word Thamizh and Sangam (While writing in Tamil) in our Logo....//

The conjunction- letter in between Two words ... "CH"... called... ´üÚ ... ("OTRU") .. is a MUST grammatically ....while writing in Tamil... as also while transliterating in the course of the Tamil-text....

... as ..."THAMIZH-CH-CHANGAM" in the letter-pads and matters conveyed to Tamil-knowing persons.

But while writing the Name in the ENGLISH-FORM either in Logo or Name-Board or Letter-Pad..

It is better... to write as per English System... in the PRACTICAL- SENSE..

.. as .. "TAMIL SANGAM" .. only. .. with.... NO.... "OTRU"... "CH"... in between.

Otherwise it will lead to confusion amongst Non-Tamilians... especially the Local-Government employees[/tscii:3d3b5a0979]

[senthilkumaras]

thiruvaalarae,
in my opinion any language that bypasses its grammar is right on the path of deterioration.No established language would neglect its grammar, because neglecting it alters and weakens the built-in core framework of the language itself, and when such neglects accumulate the framework collapse.
Any language without grammar will get erased in a few decades.
Following to the essence of grammar is vital not only in macro-grammar, but also in micro-grammar-like the 'ch' in between "tamizh" and "sangam".
Infact wher else you can see this beauty of transformingletters in the middle of conjoint words!It is one of the UNIQUENESS OF TAMIZH GRAMMAR.
The least important duty of the people to their mothertongue is saving atleast its Grammar from getting deformed;
"we are not speaking it pure,
we are not preventing foreign words disguising as tamil words,
we have already forgotten the greatness,the history and classique of tamizh,
and now we tend to deform the foundation of the language.
what a pity, it is high time we need to mock at ourselves.

Sorry for being hard,
there is no two ways of writing and speaking Tamizh.The answer is "TAMIZHchCHANGAM".
When we can not even pronunciate Tamizh words correctly (perhaps due to lazy tongues ) how can we expect foreigners to read and know Tamizh words.

[senthilkumaras]

and sorry,
it is like writing "examination" and reading as "examinason" or vice versa.Such mistakes make a language less livelier and more corupted.

[F.S.Gandhi vandayar]

Dear Thiru senthilkumaaras, :)

Your attitute is welcome. :)

In saudi scenario they are going to have English logo containing the sounds of English for English knowing people.

In tamil logo they are going to add conjuction.

No tamil grammars spoke about sounds. :o

All talk about santhi-conjuction.

Dear Thiru nsomu,

I forgot to respond you. sorry :!:

You wrote,

/// Nannool is by Pavanadhi or Nandi Munivar ? ///

Both names are same. Nanthi munivar is a kannada scholar tried to find rules to accomodate shrinked north indian tamil words / other indian language words. That was the neccessity because religious teachings like Mahavira,Jain,Vaishnava etc. formed in other dravidian/ sanskrit belt were to be propogated in tamil.

"Veerasoliyam" talks about grammars of poetry writing Anthathi,ula,kuravanchi etc.all folk form of tamil created during 12th and 13 th centuries A.D.

f.s.gandhi

[nsomu]

Thank you very much.. Mr. Gandhi and others. For once I thought, the matter is over. Happy to see it still alive.

Now regarding the wordings in our logo, we enganged a person, fortunately a Tamilian to design it. A personal discussion with him revealed ...that While we are writing " RIYADH TAMIL SANGAM" in English and if the same is to be conveyed in Tamil , it has to be like " RIYADH THAMIZH CHANGAM"..that is maintaining its three worded design. In normal Practice ( other than a LOGO) we have to write RIYADH TAMIZHCHCHANGAM, without splitting THAMIZH and CHANGAM. A logo's purpose is to convey at an instant to which organization it belongs. The wordings are to be arranged without much distortion. It is convinient to write as well as pleasant to visualise if we write in both the languages with the same number of words. Thanks for the inputs of every one.. After all it is a small logo issue. Rest assured we all breath THAMIZH here.

Dr.N.Somasundaram

[Sudhaama]

My Sincere Suggestion ....

In English-Name-Boards, Logo... or Letter-Pads ... MEANT EXCLUSIVELY OR MAINLY for Non-Tamilians :--

.... TAMIL- SANGAM ...

... because our Language Thamizh is known to the world only as... TAMIL...

and .. our Changam... as ... SANGAM.... only... being MORE POPULAR SO t

So Let us NOT CONFUSE others... It is not our Intention... nor out of TAMIL- FANATICISM.

And in such other places ... intended for Tamilians only... it can be as...

... THAMIZH-CH-CHANGAM.