Great THAMIZH - ISAI !

[Sudhaama]

There are several factors to ADVOCATE as Tamil-Isai is the GREAT ... and UNPARALLEL ...

What are they?

[viggop]

As long as the song is in Praise of Hindu Gods,i'll listen to them and like them in any language.

Tamil Isai can be used to propagate principles of our religion to all people.It should be used to inculcate Bhakthi in Tamil Nadu and this will take TN people closer to God.

[Sudhaama]

"viggop"

// As long as the song is in Praise of Hindu Gods,i'll listen to them and like them in any language..... Tamil Isai can be used to propagate principles of our religion to all people.It should be used to inculcate Bhakthi in Tamil Nadu and this will take TN people closer to God //

Music ... is an Art... COMMON TO WHOLE HUMANITY.. without any Barrier of Religion, Caste or even Nationality...

That is the Spirit with which a Christian... Dr. Jesudass took interest to learn Music and became a Musician...

Mr.Jon-Higgins... a Christian American... came to India... exclusively for learning Carnartic-Music... and became a full-fledged Musician..

Sri Vedanayakam-pillai ... a Christian... learnt Carnatic-Music... became a KEERTHANA-COMPOSER... and composed several Tamil Keerthanas... as Common-Lyrics applicable to any God of any Religion....

... For Example... "Arulh purivaay... Karunhai Kadalae"... in Hamsadhwani... used to be sung by all the Musicians including MSSubbulakshmi.

He has also composed Tamil-Keerthanas exclusively in the name of Jesus-Christ....which took part in the concerts of several Non-Christian musicians .. including Ariyakudi, DKPattammal, MS and others....

There are also Gramophone-records of such songs too.

For example...the Tamil-Keerthana... in the name of Jesus-Christ... Gramophone-Record by DKP....

"Chiththam yeppadiyoa? Aiyaa vun..... KARTHTHANAE ..Nee yennai kaividuvaayoa?".

Music is for Common-Pleasure of one and all the Creatures... including the Global Human-beings ...

Only with such a HEARTY-SPIRIT...Sangeetha-Rasikas enjoy music without any parochialism nor unfair discrmination

That was the basis... for allowing Dr. Jesudas as well as Dr. John- Higgins... who were honourably given the Dais ... during Thyagaraja- Aradhana Festival... right at the front of Swamy Sannidhi itself.

Music also IMPROVES Soul-power... because of Bhakthi-sense induced in the Lyrics... coupled with the Subtle-Art...

Because MUSIC is capable of EASY-REACH to the Soul too...apart from the Hearers- MIND according to the proven Scientific- Research.

[Sudhaama]

[tscii:f0a51e19bf]
How Thamizh-Isai is GREAT ?

(1) SWEET : Because Two Sweets are mixed together .. How?

Non-Tamilian Foreigners say that the Tamil is a SWEET Language... because its Phonetics are the lightest than any other Language...

So to say.. there is no tough Pronunciation due to Complex-Letters like.. Pra... Kya.. Shta...etc. in Tamil.

As also No Harsh sounds... like Kha, Gha, Chha, Jhaha, Thha, Ppha.. etc.

Thirdly the pronunciation is simple and easy... such that ... any Foreigner or even any Child find it easy to learn Tamil-Lyric... faster than those of other Languages.

Music is anyhow Sweet for anybody... so when both are inter-twined... it develops a soothing Song... even for a Non-Tamilian...

For example... one German Tourist .. who visited India... in 1952, heard in the Radio... the Tamil Song ...

... "Vaanaththin meedhu Mayilaada kandaen" (Å¡Éò¾¢ý Á£Ð Á¢ġ¼ì- ¸ñ§¼ý :-- THIRUVARUTPA- Poem of Arutprakasa Valhlhalaar Sri.Ramalinga Swamihalh) sung by MS Subbalakshmi ...

Immediately he jumped with Joy...saying ...Ah! it is so Enchanting and Mellifluous... not only the Music but also its soft- words... I am an International Tourist who have travelled not only all over the world but also almost the whole of India too.. and heard the Songs in various foreign and Indian Languages... as well....

...But comparatively... such a best combination of two sorts of Sweets by ... Language plus Music.. I am hearing only Now ... in the Tamil-Songs.

And he ordered 100 Gramophone Records of the Song... and took with him to Germany for presenting to his Relatives and Friends there.

... even though of an Unknown Language to all of them.

...To Continue....[/tscii:f0a51e19bf]

[Idiappam]

Tamil Isai (music) is not just in the Language! Something more in there! Mr Sudhaama - can you guess what they are???

[viggop]

Idiappam
I do not understand your question fully but is it devotion to God that you are talking about?

[Idiappam]

The popular 'Carnatic music' is just about 250 years old! At least, that's what you hear in concerts - songs of the Trinity, a couple of thousand songs - sung over and over again and again by ALL artists - starting with 'Vathapi ganapathim', then 'Ramanee samana mevaru', then 'mariyatha kathura' then 'varamu lasaki'.

Aiyaiyo samy - the same story every concert.

Tamil songs (and even Purandaradasa's kanada songs) are classified and humiliated -'thukadas' and 'sillarai' sung as the last one minute piece at the end of Concerts, that on the average lasts two hours.

There is nothing new anymore in Carnatic music no longer. What's Tamil Isai?? Why is 'carnatic music' and infertile offshoot of Tamil Isai?? What existed before the Trinity?? Who coined the word 'Karnataka Sangeeth' - and when?

What are ploys these Carnatics used to bewilder the ordinary man to keep him away from music? The Melakartha?? What's happening? And what happened??

We have to study the 'carnatic music' closely to seek answers to these questions. More coming up.... But, meanwhile - any questions anyone??

[Sudhaama]

Mr. Idiappam,

Good... Interesting presentation... although some points are disputable...

The word Karnataka .. has nothing to do either with the so called Trinity... nor any such Vagkeyakara (Composers)... nor even the so called state Karnataka...

Nor as per our Tamil Colloquival sense......" Hae.. this man is a Karnaatakam ..."

... by which we mean in Tamil... "Paththaam-pasali".../ Kattai-vandi type / Out-dated...

But in fact..."Karnataka" ... means... ANCIENT... in Sanskrit.. which word has been adopted in Tamil and all other Indian Languages too.. in that good healthy sense only..

Mr. Idiappam... please continue and complete whatever you want to say in totality.. No doubt you have some sensible points...

. .on which... I will reply after your full postings..

[Idiappam]

Mahashtran King Someswara III (1127-1139 AD) ruled a small kingdom, just north of Karnataka. His interest in music brought him to the southern music world. He called it Karnataka Sangita - as that was the name of the place south of where he ruled. His writing - Manasaollase - probably on music (I don't know). The music in the South was none, but Tamil Isai. So, the label Carnatic Music was stuck on was was then Tamil Isai.

But how did 'Carnartic music' come to ignore Tamil music compositions prior to the Trinity. The Trinity: 1. Thiyagaraja (1767 - 1847) 2. Shyama Sastri (1726 - 1827) 3. Muthuswamy Dikshitar (1776 - 1835).

All three born in Thiruvaarur, Tamil Nadu. Learnt Tamil Isai. Thiyagaiyer composed in Telegu, Sastri sang in Telegu and Tamil, Muthuswamy in Sanskrit.

What compositions were there in Tamil before these Trinity?

Theruvil vaaraanO - ennai satRE
Thirumbi paaraanO
---- Muthu Thandavar (1600 AD)

Kaalai thooki nidradum theivame - enai
kai thooki aal theivame
---- Marimuthu Pillai (1712 - 1787)

ArO ivar ArO - enna
pErO aRiyEnE!
---- Arunasala Kaviraayar (1711 - 1779)

These earlier Trinity were deliberately ignored in concerts even when the extent of their works run in multiples of what the later Trinity had done - why?? Because they composed only Tamil??

What Tamil compostions have these three to their credit? Who are the other Tamil composers of this period. We will see later.

While gathering them all, I think I should listen to D.K. Pattamal's voice - "Eppadi paadinaro?" at this site. You too, Mr Sudhaama!

http://www.musicindiaonline.com/l/1/s/album.2298/artist.4/

[viggop]

DKP's eppadi paadinaro is excellent.It was composed by Gopalakrishna Bharathi.

I read that Muthu Thandavar sang one song per day in Chidambaram temple.But alas,only 60 songs is available now,i think.

Most of his bhakthi songs on Lord Nataraja is gone :(

The present day singers just sing what was taught to them by their gurus.Of course,they sing with a lot of devotion which is why God is with them.
:)

[viggop]

Present method of teaching music is said to have been devised by PurandaraDasa.So, the first raga a student is taught is usually MayamalavaGowla

[viggop]

Papanasam Shivam and Koteeshwara Iyer also composed songs in each of the 72 melakartas like Dikshitar.Koteeshwara Iyer's grandson K.Veeramani is also a devotional singer.

[viggop]

Sudhaama and Idiappam
Please listen to this wonderful jugalbandhi of Chitravina Ravikiran and Gaurav Mazumdar(on Sitar).

The RTP in charukesi is simply superb.This concert was in Music Academy,chennai.
http://www.musicindiaonline.com/l/6/s/artist.354/

[viggop]

Idiappam
I do not think anyone wants to insult Thamizh and Kannada songs.Most of the carnatic musicans are Tamils!!!
They are required to sing all songs with equal devotion to God irrespective of the time duration(that is their dharma)

Also,there are lot of new things coming up in Carnatic music.Especially,more interactions with Hindustani music,new instruments like mandolin,guitar,saxophone,keyboard etc are getting introduced in music
Also,carnatic musicians are learning new songs like Bengali songs,Marathi abhangs,hindi bhajans.Madurai Mani Iyer even sang a english note(but heard that if a westerner listens to that,he'll have a poor opinion of carnatic musicians!!! :lol: )
Also, modern day musicans are interacting in the world wide level like L.Subramanian,Ravikiran etc.
With the current technologies like DVD,CD's ,carnatic music is reaching audience throughout the world.
It is really good time for it and musicians and let us pray for its success to Lord Shiva. As long as HE blesses it,nobody can destroy it. :)

[Vikram Sampath]

[quote="Idiappam"]The popular 'Carnatic music' is just about 250 years old! At least, that's what you hear in concerts - songs of the Trinity, a couple of thousand songs - sung over and over again and again by ALL artists - starting with 'Vathapi ganapathim', then 'Ramanee samana mevaru', then 'mariyatha kathura' then 'varamu lasaki'.

Aiyaiyo samy - the same story every concert.

Really dont know if its worth a reply...this is both the most shocking and also simultaneously the most hilarious statement ive heard idiappam..and im pleasantly amused that u have cheerleaders who laud this as well! anywayz...each one is entitled to his views. perhaps uve been terribly unlucky to have heard those 3-4 kritis u mentioned...that is ur problem, not carnatic music's...probably ur choice of artists was pathetic,...the number of kritis composed by sri tyagraja itself is over 20,000 of which nearly 1300 are in vogue right now--as in sung or played by musicians..purandara dasa has composed over a lakh kritis of which a number of them r sung --as tailenders may be, but nonetheless...

and so what if carnatic music is 'just 250 years old'??? just because smthing is ancient it doesnt mean its the BEST! that way cave man's art was as ancient as u can get,.,,so why not eulogise that as well...



There is nothing new anymore in Carnatic music no longer. What's Tamil Isai?? Why is 'carnatic music' and infertile offshoot of Tamil Isai?? What existed before the Trinity?? Who coined the word 'Karnataka Sangeeth' - and when?



im sure uve never heard of anything called 'manodharma sangita'..where an artist improvises extemporaneously...each concert is new...for the artist and the listener...the alapanai, neraval, kalpanaswaram or RTP wouldnt be the same the next day if u hear the same artist..and still u say therz nothing new in carnatic music...my plea---dont make generalised theories based on ur sad experiences...as far the infertile shoot--i already said in another thread that it was too base a thing to say...carnatic music is an evolved version of the ancient tamizh isai and draws from it no doubt...its like an upgraded windows version man. :wink: 24 or 27 panhs of tamizh isai...versus 72 melakartha ragas(ohhh the same word which supposedly 'bewilders common man'...wonder why or how!!) and innumerable janya ragas or derivative ragas...obviously the scope of the canvas is bigger in the latter and hence its the former which is an infertile old version...


What are ploys these Carnatics used to bewilder the ordinary man to keep him away from music? The Melakartha?? What's happening? And what happened??

:lol: again a wonderfully hilarious stmnt..man, u entertain big time!! i didnt know the word melakartha scared u so much...anywayz...Putthandu Nal vazthugaL! ur zeal for the language is admirable...i just request u to keep it within the limits of rational thinking. :)

[viggop]

Vikram
Purandaradasa is supposed to have composed about 4,75,000 kritis.

Muthu Thandavar,Marimuthu Pillai ,Arunasala Kaviraayar composed for the sake of God.They were not interested in competing with any one.Similarily, trinity composed for the sake of God and for HIM only.All these great souls would be pained that what they have composed & language they composed has now become a point of contention!!! They just wont be bothered about such mundane things.They were devoted to GOD and only to sing his praise they composed.
So,the intention of singers should be to capture the bhakthi of these great souls.Language was never an issue for the composers as well as singers!

Even for the Chennai rasikas who flock to concert halls during the december season,language has never been an issue.
The core is bhakthi and music just elevates them there.Nothing else matters, atleast for me.

If you listen to the link I gave,jugalbandhi of RTP in Charukesi by Ravikiran and gaurav,it is simply superb.The music just elevates you to a higher plane.Music has no langauge and it is a language of its own. :-)

[viggop]

A sad state of affairs here
===========================

http://www.sangeetham.com/others/archive.php3?fea=Focus&pass=yes

[Idiappam]

hahahaha! Mr Sampath. You words are edging on mockery and comments on me. Keep your cool and just comment on what I say, will ye!

If you read carefully again, my posts, you would note that I have no complains about the Composers - Telegu, Sanskrit or Kanada or whatever.

It is the progressive suppression of Tamil Songs in concerts, that I wish to address here, besides a few other 'defects' of carnatic music.

Episodes next comming up!

BTW, Mr Vikram, how many ragas are used in Carnatic music???

[Vikram Sampath]

viggop..i dont understand when i ver contested ur claim on bhakti and the fact that it was the sole raison de'tre for the composers-the trinity..i dont understand why u keep hitting back on it again and again..when no one seems to disagree with u on that at all...if u had read my posts on this or the other thread, i think therez a degree of convergence between the views of idiappam, u and me--all i have been saying is that classical music is beyong linguistic barriers...by giving it a regionalistic hue just because a bulk of 'popular' artists come from a certain state, it simple narrows the scope, appeal and acceptance of that art form...thats all...

[Vikram Sampath]

and viggop thanks for that number..of the kritis...i had vaguely remembered it to be around that many..but didnt wanna risk giving a wrong numerical so that the whole world wud then pounce on me for my 'unpardonable sin' :wink:

[Vikram Sampath]

Idiappam sir, i neither have the time nor the inclination to indulge in worthless insinuations with u...so kindly desist from advising me from what to do and what not to do...

coming straight to the last question that u posed...

pal, classical music is also called 'Shastriya' sangeeth..the word 'shastriya' has a meaning here--one that has rules or shastras...so the supposed jargons u claimed that carnatic musicans throw at ppl to initimidate them, is actually their lingo...a C-programmer will talk in terms of if andfor loops, a doctor in his lingo..similarly classical musicians have their own language of communication--if that puts off 'common 'people..cant be helped...these common ppl shud stop seeing a doc as well because half the time we dont understand their mumbo jumbo and jargons...

as u know, there are these 72 melakarta ragas that define the bedrock of carnatic music..they are sampoorna ragas and use all 7 swaras in their ascendant(arohanam) and descendant(avarohanam)..the scheme was proposed by musicologist Venkatamakhi sometime in the 16th century(bad at history dates...so reserve my doubts on 16 or 15th!! come on yaar, gimme some benefit of doubt :wink: ) ragas with 5 notes are called oudava ragas and those with 6 notes are shadava..now, if u have 6 in the ascendant and 7 in the descendant it'll be a shadava-sampoorna raga...simple High school maths will tell u the different permutations combinations possible here-

1) sampoorna - sampoorna
(2) sampoorna - shadava
(3) sampoorna - oudava
(4) shadava - sampoorna
(5) oudava - sampoorna
(6) shadava - shadava
(7) shadava - oudava
(8) oudava - shadava
(9) oudava - oudava

---contd---

[Idiappam]

Mr. Vickram

Thankyou for that unnecesary bombast that you posted in reply. I know all that stuff. I also know what the Tamils have written on music long before the Sanskritis came up with their 'oudava-Shadava' thingy!

My question was very simple! How many ragas are there commonly used in carnatic music?

So stop your bush-beating and come to the point, Mr Sampath!

[Vikram Sampath]

The first case evidently refers to the melakartas themselves and does not generate any janya ragas.(BTW melakaratas are the janaka ragas or parent ragas and their kiddos are the janyas) The example of Bilahari belongs to the 5th or oudava - sampoorna case. Using the sampoorna - shadava case as an example, there are 72 sampoorna arohanams and six shadava avarohanams for each, leading to total of 432 janya ragas of this type. (Again if uve done Maths in class 11 or 12, u cud crack this one...perms and combs chapter!!!) By the same argument, there are 432 janya ragas of shadava - sampoorna type. Following this procedure, one can arrive at a total of about thirty thousand independent janya ragas. However, a large number of these are not in use since they do not have distinct raga swaroopas. This brings us to the important observation that it is not just mathematical jugglery that produces ragas. As the saying goes, 'Ranjayathi ithi Raga' - that which is beautiful is a raga. Ragas are produced through experimenting with the possible combinations, looking for distinct swaroopas. This process has been conducted for centuries by composers and musicians to arrive at some two to three hundred or so janya ragas currently in use.


U can have further variations of janyas called bhashanga raga, upanga raga, vakra ragas and that would take the tally a little more than that...but all that on a later date, lest i dont lose u completely :wink:

i really dont understand ur last stmnt abt 'faults' etc...even if there are faults, so what?? art is an expression of human emotions...humans are imperfect, so their art cant be perfect...art is also a continuously evolving process..what u find imperfect today wud become a part of the form a few centuries later...so letz not get there at all...the point i reiterate is abt the evolutionary aspect of any art...i fully agree (and being a tamilian myself) that the roots of carnatic music lay in the tamizh isai of the ancient tamils who had reached a v early stage of literary and musical supremacy...Idiappam, with times things improve, evolve...even ur operating systems versionz get added features with new versions...how can, then a form thatz evolved now out of its old parent be its infertile offshoot?? it wudnt have survived n thrived in that case...tamizh isai had some 24-27 panhs(panhs was the equivalent of the word raga)..also it totally lacked the hallmark of classical forms--Improvisation. it was more of Kalpita sangeetha or composed music..whereas both styles-Hindustani and Carnatic bank on a lot of Manodharma Sangeetha or Improvised/spontaneous/extemporaneous music(its more in Hindustani than carnatic, agreed)..through components like Alapanai, Neraval, Kalpana swarams, RTP the artist treats the raga like his child..helps it to grow stage by stage and then expose its traits and beauty in all its majesty...this makes singing an ever green, a fresh experience and also challenging...cos ur composing right there on stage, not looking into whatz written in a book or taught by ur guru...thats where the beauty lies..one which the ancient forms DIDNOT have..

take the case of hindustani music as we noe of it today...inital indian classical music as documented by Bharata in his natyashastra in some BC year,..where he said all these 7 swaras emanated from nature etc...and later sharanga deva's sangeeta ratnakara--there was no distinction between Hindustani or carnatic styles--the names also werent known...dhrupad was the most ancient form of Hindustani music..been there for over 1200 years...but with turko persian invasions and influences, the Khayal form developed..which is what is in vogue today...dhrupad has almost died with just the dagars, gundechas and others practising it...khayal gave rise to other offshoots like thumri, kajari, dadara, tappa etc some of which were from the courtesans and looked down upon...but today its a part of any Hindustani musician's repertoire...similarly carnatic music has evolved, changed, metamorphosed from the ancient styles...added on more features, become structured and grown and continues to grow..like the khayal singers abandaoned the elements of dhrupad (alap jod jhala--which if u notice is interestignly similar to our ragam tanam pallavi!), so also composers over the years abandoned languages like tamil and kannada and took on sanskrit and telugu...therez no earth shattering consequence of that...if u say language doesnt matter, then why r u worried abt tamil compos being subsumed??? contradiction of sorts???


and anyway imperfection is good..Perfection is death after alll!

[Vikram Sampath]

ur beyond help sir...live with ur views..Good luck and God bless you..

[Idiappam]

ur beyond help sir...live with ur views..Good luck and God bless you..

Wow, Remarkable feat Mr, Sampath! Really! You have produced a '10 page report' for an answer that just needs 3 digits.

Bewilder Bewilder Bewilder - never mind, that's common amoung some carnaticians and some anti-Tamil elements that I meet often.

Let me post my simple question for a genuine answer from someone.

How many ragas are there commonly used in carnatic music?

[Idiappam]

Mr Vikram mistakenly said:


tamizh isai had some 24-27 panhs(panhs was the equivalent of the word raga)..

You are terribbly mistaken there! You just counted the pans in Thevaaram! There are over 100 pans! Just about the number of ragas commonly used in carnatic music! What 'raaga inovation' are you talking about in carnatic music??

Melakartha eh?[/quote]

[viggop]

Vikram Sampath
My post was not at all against you! I am also of the opinion that music has no language barriers.

Is it not Tamil musicians who have an open mind to singing in all languages? We should appreciate ourselves(Tamilians) for this broad outlook we have.No one forced it upon us but still we sing in different languages.All the Tamil muscians claim that there is no language in music.

[viggop]

Idiappam
Raga improvisations usually happen in RTP.Raga alapanai is supposed to be the place where an musician can show off his knowledge of music(vidwat) & his creativity.

GNB had a style in alapanas when he was elaborating and exploring a particular raga.It became later known as the GNB bani.

Flute Mali used to pick up some important notes of the raga and elaborate on them only(unlike GNB).
SO,you'll find that RTP and raga alapanai of the same ragam will be very different from each artistes.

Even in Songs,you can sing with varying tempos.You can sings songs full of brighas.T.N.Seshagopalan is well known for his brigha laden renditions and also kannakkus.

[viggop]

Manicka mudaliar wrote a book about the mathematical basis of carnatic music.Mathematically,you can have an infinite number of ragas.

[viggop]

Idiappam
Music season concerts as we know now started in 1927.Before that,i think people used to sing in courts of rich people and kings and also in temples.

I dont think there was a progressive suppression of Tamil songs.I think the muscians themselves did not have any agenda to suppress any language especially since 75% of the muscians are Tamils and they speak Tamil at home.They probably chose the songs which brought forth their vidwat of music,brought forth their devotion.
Musiri Subramanya Iyer usually chose thygaraja krithis because of their high bhakthi content and he is supposed to be very good in showing emotions through music.Hence,in his concerts,Dikshitar kritis were almost absent as they were more of philosphical nature.

Why do you say that there was a deliberate suppression of Tamil songs?
What does that achieve for the musicans?Which time did this start to happen?

Atleast for younger generations people like me, we hear songs in all langauges including Tamil and carnatic musicans release casstettes which are based on themes,Kshetras etc containing all language songs.Also,they sing with equal devotion to the Lord in all langaugaes like DKP rendition of "eppadi paadinaro"

[viggop]

Guys
Did anyone of you hear the jugalbandhi(RTP in charukesi) of Ravikiran and Gaurav Mazumdar? Was it not simply superb? That itself shows that carnatic music is apart from any one language

[Vikram Sampath]

in ur zeal to counter me, u didnt notice in that same '10 page report' of mine that i mentioned clearly that (as viggop also said) there can be mathematically infinite no of janya ragas, around 300 janya ragas are in vogue..to add u add 72 melakartas and a few bhashanga/upanga/vakra ragas, u get around 400-450 ragas...sad that u cudnt get even this much out of that "report"and could only jump to condemn the effort i took to share some of my limited knowledge with u.....how many ever it might be, one thingz for sure, the no of ragas in vogue were certainly more than the no of panhs! so u know which one is more evolved than the other...btw, how many panhs were in vogue Mr Learned sir???

and improvisation is in the raga elaboration and exposition...it is not set music sung from a book..i dunno how better i can explain the same concept to u...ive tried all means...and dont think ive succeeded too much..

stop branding others...im not an anti tamilian...im a tamilian myself...but that doesnt make me an irrational zealot...i also need not be a militant carnatic fanatic...carnatic music has stood the test of time and doesnt need worthless people like myself to defend it...if u didnt like it so much, wonder what ur doing on a classical music forum!

u say language isnt important in music in an earlier post and then in the same breath lament on the "suppression" of tamil songs...what a classic contradiction!

[Vikram Sampath]

viggop, i do agree with u on the issue of why those particular kritis were more in vogue...bhakti was of course one thing...at the same time, an important aspect that sri tyagaraja brought to music was the concept of 'sangatis'...it is often said that his kritis(especially the pancharatnas) have been perfected to such an extent that no more improvisation on the sangatis can be done...a simple example is this famous kriti 'Dari ni Telusu kontinaiya tripura sundari...ni' in Raga Shuddha saveri.(u must hear MLV sing it..shall send the link sometime)...the pallavi of one line has 11 sangatis...the anupallavi has some 15 sangatis and the charanam has 10 sangatis...what more cud any other musician add???

the compositions of dikshitar were rich in lyrical supremacy...astute and chaste sanskrit..at the same time, dikshitar travelled to the north extensively and is said to have brought in elements of hindustani music , and north indian ragas too to carnatic music---like Behaag, Dwijavanti, Madhuvanti, etc. also both these composers set many of their compositions in the melakarta ragas which were neglected by musicians for long --mainly because they were too tough to comprehend for them and at the same time tough to distinguish the minute differences between melas of the same chakra(there are 12 chakras of 6 ragas each)...in contemporary musicians DR Balamurali krishna has composed kritis in all 72 melas and in fact many present day musicians have started using his kritis extensively as well....

[Vikram Sampath]

viggop...the RTP was indeed excellent...thanks for the link...but i dotn see the point that u make...both are instruments..so anyway they r free from the crutches of language! so hardly matters which instrument is carnatic n which is Hindustani!

the real challenge comes in a vocal jugalbandi when language enters the scene...ask me abt it...i have been a student of carnatic music for 15 odd years now...and have been experimenting with jugalbandis with my hindustani friends on the concert stage...but its never been a very fulfliing experience for me personally and ive always felt it difficult to keep the synchronisation...i dunno if its my lack of expertise or the general lacuna that vocal music suffers from...dunno!

[Idiappam]

Vikram Said;

carnatic music has stood the test of time and doesnt need worthless people like myself to defend it...

Test of time??? How long was that?? Carnatics used to deplore Tamil songs - There were even walk outs by carnatic fanatics when Dhandapani Desikar sang Tamils songs at a Temple concert, saying that the stage got 'theetu' because of Tamil.

Now you see, a different story - audience got tired of the same non=Tamil 'carnatic' songs - the same 'ragunaayaga' etc. That now senior singers like Sheshagopalan had to grab and sing the Kamba Ramayanam to keep the fizz going. Bombay Sister went for Bharathiar Songs, and Sudha R. got one or two kavadi chindu and some Bharathidasan songs. Tamil Songs are the ones the is sustaining some life in 'carnatic' music. Properly said, 'carnatic music is infertile'.


if u didnt like it so much, wonder what ur doing on a classical music forum!

What else do you know about me, my dear friend?


u say language isnt important in music in an earlier post and then in the same breath lament on the "suppression" of tamil songs...what a classic contradiction!

Ah.. where?? Take your time, Mr Sampath read my posts again! I chose my words carefully!

[Idiappam]

Just another few questions?? What is the western violin doing on a carnatic stage?? Who brought the harmonium to India?? Before these instruments, what was there???

[viggop]

I think Nadaswaram was the chief accompaniment before the violin.Violin was introduced by Baluswamy Dikshitar(brother of muthuswamy).It was further enhanced when the Tanjavur quartet(Pillai brothers who were disciples of Muthuswamy Dikshitar) took to it.

Did not know that harmonium was not an Indian instrument!It has become so synonymous with our music!

Unfortunately,now nadaswaram vidwans are suffering.The situation became so bad that some carnatic musicans led by Semmangudi Srinivasa Iyer conducted a special nadaswaram vizha to show case the power of nadaswaram(mangala isai).Now,I believe the Kanchi Mutt is sponsoring lot of nadaswaram vidwans.The Tamil Film people spoil the image of Nadaswaram and thavil by using it for their "dappang gutthu" songs which have vulgar meaning and dances.:-(

[viggop]

Idiappam
Very surprised that you mention that the audience gets tired? I have attended lot of chennai music concerts when i was in chennai and audience never get tired of the songs.Any song sung well will take us to bliss.there is no tiredness at all.carnatic music songs are not the type of songs where you will get tired if hearing it or singing it again & again. also, the raga improvisation in RTP and alapanai is very much appreciated by the audience.People do poojas and recite skanda sashti kavacam and vishnu saharanamam daily? Do they get tired of it? Carnatic music actually gives people a peace of mind and bliss.

Actually,vidwans and vidushis are singing benagali songs,rabindra sangeeth,marathi abhangs,bhajans etc.they are trying to learn as much as possible too in all languages but mostly they sing devotional songs only and in praise of Hindu Gods/Godesses.SO,they are also trying to enrich their knowledge base as most professionals are required to do so.

[viggop]

OS.Arun too has rendered Kambaramayanam.
Heard TNS is now trying to move to harikatha.Let us wish him well.
Carnatic music came from Lord Shiva.Hence,I believe mere mortals like us cannot do any damage to it.When the Lord decides to take it within himself again,only then it'll get destroyed.Till HE is backing it,it'll keep on getting enhanced by HIS grace.
So,dont worry that carnatic music is dying etc.Lord Shiva is protecting it.This can be seen that it is reaching a worldwide audience and carnatic musicians need not beg anymore and they are getting prosperous. :-)

[viggop]

Sanjay Subramanian,renowned carnatic musician was asked in a concert whether carnatic music is dying.He responded that these predictions have been going on for a long time.Britishers wrote in the gazette that carnatic music is dying after the passing away of the trinity.But,now it is flourishing but the predictions are repeated that it'll die soon.Dont worry.It'll only die when Lord Shiva absorbs it within HIMSELF.it came from HIM and only HE can destroy it.Fortunately,i think,HE is showering his grace on it by getting even young people interested in its beauty.
You would be surprised to know that my organisation conducts "thyagaraja aradhana" annually with only its employees taking part.And all of us are in the age group,21-27 only!!!

[Idiappam]

Vikram said:


there can be mathematically infinite no of janya ragas, around 300 janya ragas are in vogue..to add u add 72 melakartas and a few bhashanga/upanga/vakra ragas, u get around 400-450 ragas...sad that u cudnt get even this much out of that "report"and could only jump to condemn the effort i took to share some of my limited knowledge with u.....

At least Mr Vikram now you are closer to the realities of music! Only 300 to 450 ragas left eh? The claim that the melakarta scheme 'offered' infinite ragas to the world is a bluff in reality. Mathematically true yeah. Bewilder, go on!

If you look at these 300 to 450 ragas (I don't know how you dreamt up that figure), just over 150 ragas a common and popular. The rest have just one or two, or no songs at all to it - They sound horrible or resemble closely another raga. So stop your 'lakhs raga' melakarta brag.


how many ever it might be, one thingz for sure, the no of ragas in vogue were certainly more than the no of panhs!

Another thing for sure - you statment above is terribbly wrong - and it exhibits your anti-Tamil sentiments. Take care!


so u know which one is more evolved than the other...btw, how many panhs were in vogue Mr Learned sir???

There are all there, even in 'carnatic music' by different (sanskritised) names. Keep looking, my dear Sampath!

[viggop]

Guys
Why is this fight over the number of panhs and ragas? Both of them only enhance the carnatic music.They do not conflict each other or try to destroy each other.If they are now known by sankritised names,does that make carnatic music lower? or if they are known by Tamil names,does that make carnatic music lower?

The carnatic musicians dont bother!!! the devoted audiences in chennai and throughout the world do not bother and even Lord Shiva does not seem to bother.Even Lord Shiva has thousands of sanskrit and Tamil names.Does it diminish HIM anyway?

Sirs,
JUst enjoy the music and the bliss and ONEness with God it brings and do not let things like names,languages etc. spoil it!!! All prejudices should melt in the music and all prejudices are because of our egos.

Immerse yourself in the great ,divine,pure spiritual music by letting go of all prejudices,egos,political affliations etc.:-)

[rshankar]

I agree with viggop that we must put this partisan debate to rest before it gets out of hand. My previous posts in this thread were just to highlight the fact that Tamizh songs are in no way inferior to songs in Telugu, and MAY be preferred if the audience so desires, and more importantly, if the musician has not learnt the other language he/she sings in.
I think that the very survival of Carnatic music pays tribute to the fact that it bends and absorbs, rather than breaks. It is possible that many older forms of music were not able to do this and this may have contributed to their disappearance. Most of the music and dance from the region of the Tamizhs has always been very catholic in their approach: take the classical dance forms of India: most of the repertoire is performed to local languages and Sanskrit. e.g.: While kathak is danced to compositions in Hindi/Urdu and sanskrit, mohiniattam and kathakali to sanskrit and Malayalam songs, kuchipudi to Telugu and sanskrit, even in the days when it was called dasiattam, or Sadir or Koothu, bhratanatyam dancers could perform a Tamizh padam (tirvotriyoor tyaagesan chid-vilaasakaaranadi), or a Telugu padam (maaname bhooshanamu) or a Telugu jaavalai (parullanna mata vinnavaddu, praananaayakaa) with equal elan. Following this tradition, current dancers have danced to compositions in Hindi (Dr. Padma Subrahmaniam is credited with using a Meera Bhajan for a Padam first), Bengali, Gujrati (Chandrasekhars) etc. making the repertoire of bharatanatyam so extensive. Similarly, while Hindustani musicians like Bhimsen Joshi are execptions (he has sung some Purandaradasa compositions), most hindustani musicians stick to Urdu/Hindi (and its dialects) lyrics. Rabindra Sangeeth is exclusively in Bengaali, and if the current move to make Odissi music another branch of classical music in India succeeds, then it is another example of a kind of music where the songs are exclusively if not predminantly in Oriya and sanskrit. Unlike all these, I think that we should be proud that Carnatic music has a much wider lyrics-base to exist on.
The language of the songs become important only to those of us (a minority, it appears) that appreciate the innate poetry and godliness of the lyrics and the saintliness of the composers (for die hard, 'true' lovers of music, the lyrics do not seem to carry much weight, because it is difficult to even put a language to the songs several of the 'great' musicians have sung).
Much has been said of the beauty of Telugu compositions, but I love some hindi and kannada songs as well: in the song 'yAd AvE, brindAvan kI mangal lIlA', I was struck by the following lines: 'kOyi kahE yeh mITTA sapna, krishn kahAnI kavi man rachnA, mohE nahIn kaCHu kahnA sunn-nA, mOhE thO brij lAlan lalnA' (the pun on mOhE is great!). In a mIra bhajan, the poetess is asked about the person in her dreams: 'koyi kahE srIrAm hai kya? yA gowrI kAlI maiyA?' and she replies: 'mein kahUn, nahI, gOpAl hai woh ik, ban mei charAyE gaiyAn' (how simple, yet so profound), and she goes on: 'umA patI paramEshwar nahIn, nA nArayan BayahAri, mIrA kA hridaya vihArI, ang pItAmbar, mOr mukut sar, mAlA galE suhAVE'. Similarly, the phrase 'AshegaLeshTO, nirAshEgaLeshTO, suKa, duKa prEmOtsArangaLeshTO' from a purandaradAsa composition also makes my day, or 'sakala vidhyABimAnI, ajana pattadharAnI' also appeals tremendously.
Every language has its innate beauty, and in my opinion, it is the duty of the singer to learn the language, enunciate the words clearly and appropriately and communicate the meaning of the song to the listener to fulfill the prophecy that 'advaita sidhDHiki, amaratvalaBDHiki, gAnamE sOpAnamU'!

[viggop]

Ravi Shankar
you are right.I too agree with you.
I thought only we Tamilians are broad minded but from your post,everyone else seem to be as broadminded in accepting all langauges.For them,the music and dance are a separate language by itself.I think when you become a musician ,you only breath music and things like language,geographical boundaries,all these disappear totally.
Long live such an attitude

[viggop]

After successful completion of Cleveland Thygaraja Aradhana,Michigan thygaraja aradhana is going to start on April 24.US guys can make use of this oppurtunity too.

[Idiappam]

Leaving all those distractions aside and getting back on track, Tamil Isai. The compostions of the Earlier Trinity, as far as I can collect:

---- Muthu Thandavar (1600 AD)
Keerthanai - 60
Padam - 25

---- Marimuthu Pillai (1712 - 1787)
Keerthanai - 25
Puliyur venba
ChithambarEsar viRalividu thUthu
Thillai PaLLu
Chitirak Kavigal
Singaara Velavar Pathigam

---- Arunasala Kaviraayar (1711 - 1779)
1. Rama Naadaga Keethanai - consisting of:
Tharu (Keethanai) - 197
IradikaNNigal (Thabathai) - 60
Kadavul vaNakkam - 1
Viruththam - 268
Miscellaneous - 6
Venba - 2
KaliththuRai - 1
Various Musical pieces - 258

2. Seerkazhi ThalapurANam
3. Anumaar Pillai Thamizh

Any additions???

[viggop]

Idiappam
The entire holy books like Thevaram,thiruvasakam etc can be set to musical tones.Arunagirinathar thirupugazh.Also,vaishnavite works of Allwars.Everything is part of Thamizh isai.

Later works by periswamy thooran,papanasam sivan,lalgudi jayaraman,ambujam krishna etc. are now sung at concerts.

Bharathiyar poem and few non polemical poems of bharathidasan

[viggop]

Ariyakudi Ramanuja Iyengar set the tune for vaishnavite works like thirupavai etc.periaswamy thooran was a freedom figher from a farmer family near coimbatore.though he did not know music,he wrote a lot of songs and they were set to tune by some musician.

Ambujam Krishna belonged to the TVS industrial family,i think.
Papanasam Sivan is a well known film song composer.

Also,I forgot to mention Koteeswara Iyer who has composed Tamil songs in all 72 melakartas.his grandson K.Veeramani sings light devotional songs.

lalgudi has composed several thiallanas and varnams which are very enjoyable.Chitravina Ravikiran has also composed songs in Tamil,telugu,sanskrit and I think his mudra is "ravishashi"

T.N.Bala and Tanjavur Sankara Iyer have composed Tamil krithis recently

if you know about any other recent composers in Tamil,please post here.

[viggop]

Also add Gopalakrishna bharathi and suddhananda bharathi,swami dayanand saraswathi to above list fo Tamil composers

[Idiappam]

On sanskritisation of Tamil musical Terminology - an example:

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---- sEkkizhaar periya puraNam - AnAya nAyanAr puraNam (12th C. AD)

ArOsai and amarOsai, respectively sanskritised as Arohana and avarohana - Who did that?

"pAlai" and 'pan peyarthal' coming up next.

[viggop]

Why should we worry about who changed the names to other languages for whatever reason?

whether it is sanskritised,tamilised,teluguised,it does not matter anyway as Tamilians still rule the roost in carnatic music.

Tamils have more sangeetha kalanidhi awards than people from any other state!.

[viggop]

Idiappam
Also, what is the meaning of the sEkkizhaar's stanza which you posted here.
I do not understand classical Tamil without an Urai.

[Idiappam]

Viggop said:

Why should we worry about who changed the names to other languages for whatever reason?
whether it is sanskritised,tamilised,teluguised,it does not matter anyway as Tamilians still rule the roost in carnatic music.

Yes, they can be even 'englishised'. But the roots - 'what came from where?' is very important here! For this is the 'Great' Tamil Isai thread. Else the Greatness would be brushed aside by some anti-Tamil elements here!

Very important, yes!


Idiappam
Also, what is the meaning of the sEkkizhaar's stanza which you posted here. I do not understand classical Tamil without an Urai

Oh dear! Viggop that verse is just to show, specifically, where some music terms occured in Tamil LIterature. Overall in Anaya Nayanar Kathai of Sekkizhar - there are more verses (about 15) relating to music.

Anaya Nayanar (I don't know when he lived - but before Sekizhar, of course) was a flutist. So, Sekizhar talks about the making of the bamboo flute (Veingkulal) = to some brief descriptions of how some melodies were played by Anaya Nayanar.

I order to understand this verse, that i posted, you need to know the rest of the verses too - the whole story in context. I will post them with brief 'urai's later tonight - my Tamil typing is slow.

[viggop]

Idiappam
Thanks for acceding to my request for the Urai.You can perhaps open a new thread for it if you feel this is not the right thread.

[rajraj]

The earliest trinity in Tamil music is Appar,Sundharar and Sambandhar. Thevaaram verses also happen to be the most ancient verses to be set to music(paNN) by the composers themselves. Thevaaram started the Bhakthi movement in saivite Tamil country and moved upwards north!

[Sudhaama]

"viggop"

// "Idiappam.... Thanks for acceding to my request for the Urai.You can perhaps open a new thread for it if you feel this is not the right thread.//

I agree with Mr. Idiappam.. This is a COMPREHENSIVE-THREAD on the Greatness of Thamizh-Isai...

...which covers each and every aspect of the so called Tamil-Isai... in all the possible outlooks.

So I welcome one and all my friends here to speak out anything whatever they have got to say on Tamil-Isai... PRO OR ANTI..

.. without offending or hurting any Person or Faith or Sentimentimental Beliefs.

... We all are here to reply and clarify suitably as it deserves.

[viggop]

Sudhaama
I do not like to hear any Anti sentiments here.Being Pro-anything does not mean a person is anti-any other thing.If anyone has this opinion,we should only feel sorry for him.
If a pro-tamil isai person is anti-telugu krithis,then his interest in music is not real.it is superficial only because anyone who has immersed themselves in isai will not have such divisive opinions.
Music/Isai is all-encompassing in my opinion & should not be divided on languages,geographic boundaries etc.
This thread can be devoted to greatness of Thamizh Isai only and it should not be anti-telugu isai,anti-kannada isai,anti-sanskrit isai or anti anything.

[SweetestAngel]

hey, do you know where i can find Alaipayuthey veena notations?
thank you

[Idiappam]

Viggop asked:

Idiappam
Also, what is the meaning of the sEkkizhaar's stanza which you posted here.
I do not understand classical Tamil without an Urai.

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---- sEkkizhaar periya puraNam - AnAya nAyanAr puraNam (12th C. AD)

studying from the (hole that produces) first basal note, accordingly the positions for subsequent notes;
and according to the set fingering methods for notes in retrograde (vakkaranai);
and suiting the melody that is played - from the first to last note (on the octave);
in that manner, (on the flute) the ascend and descend, he set to order.

That's is the english 'urai' for the above verse. I hope that's clear!

[viggop]

Excellent! Thanks.Please update us more on Thamizh Isai.
Awaiting eagerly.

[rajraj]

viggop: Some additions to your list:

ANNaamalai reddiyaar
DaNdapaNi desikar
Kambar ( kamba raamaayaNam has been set to music by some musicians. One of my Tamil professors used to sing kambaraamaayaNam verses in the class room. He also sang silappadhikaaram verses.)
Ilango adigaL (silappadhikaaram)

[viggop]

Dear Rajraj
Thanks a lot.TN.Seshagopalan and OS Arun too have rendered songs from Kamba Ramayanam
Bombay Jayashree was involved with a project to make a dance drama on Silapadhikaram along with Ms.Kanimozhi(daughter of DMK chief Karunanithi)
MS made the silapadhikaram song "vadavayirai mathaki" famous by singing it in UN General assembly.

[Idiappam]

Tholkappiam on vannams....

'Varna' is another sanscritisation of the Tamil word 'vaNNam'. Tholkappiar (5th century BC) mentions the vaNNams in Tamil isai. Altogether there are 20 kinds of vaNNams (varna)..

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[rajraj]

Idiappam,
A letter is missing in some of the words: idai ezhudhu is shown as dai ezhuthu!

[Sudhaama]

Idiappam,

//'Varna' is another sanscritisation of the Tamil word 'vaNNam'. //

Vanhnham = Azhahu (Beauty), Chezhumai (Richness)

"Kaal Vanhnham angu kandaen... Kai vanhnham ingu kandaen.."

-- Kamba-Ramayanam

VANHNHAM does not mean.... VARNAM .... another word meaning COLOUR ...

[Idiappam]

Idiappam,
A letter is missing in some of the words: idai ezhudhu is shown as dai ezhuthu!

Thank you raj, That must be a font version error. Corrected that.

[Idiappam]

Idiappam,
//'Varna' is another sanscritisation of the Tamil word 'vaNNam'. //

Vanhnham = Azhahu (Beauty), Chezhumai (Richness)
"Kaal Vanhnham angu kandaen... Kai vanhnham ingu kandaen.."
-- Kamba-Ramayanam

VANHNHAM does not mean.... VARNAM .... another word meaning COLOUR ...

Well 'vaNNam' or 'VARNA', if we restrict ourselves to their use in music everything will fall in place! In Tamil Isai 'vaNNam' means:

1. A melody or a music mode
2. Harmony
3. Rythmic cycle (santha vaNNam)
4. Variation of metre
5. A melodious tune with quick succession of short syllable (as in vaNNa kuzhimbu)
6. etc etc etc

Also meaning in other context:
1. Beauty
2. happiness
3. co-efficient (mathematics)
4. way or manner - as in 'avvaNNam' - In like manner; 'evvaNNam' - in any manner.
5. etc etc etc

---- from my dictionary

[geno]

Excellent work Idiappam avarkaLE!

I found a thamizh akaraathi link which gives the various contextual meanings for "vaNNam":

http://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/romadict.pl?query=%E0%AE%B5%E0%AE%A3%E0%AF%8D%E0%A E%A3%E0%AE%AE%E0%AF%8D&display=simple&table=tamil-lex

Sudhaama,

"sEl" enkiRa sol eppadi miinukkum, (peNkaL) kaNNukkum - kuRippup peyarAka varukiRathO - athu pOla thamizhil pala soRkaL - pala poruL kuRiththu niRpathu neengaL aRiyAthathA? :)

inthath thiri thuvakkiyamaikku nanRikaL! :)

[Sudhaama]

"geno"

// Sudhaama .... "sEl" enkiRa sol eppadi miinukkum, (peNkaL) kaNNukkum - kuRippup peyarAka varukiRathO - athu pOla thamizhil pala soRkaL - pala poruL kuRiththu niRpathu neengaL aRiyAthathA? ://

Idhan Vidaiyai .. ilakkiya-Maedaiyil inrhu alhikkiraen Angu kaanhga.

// inthath thiri thuvakkiyamaikku nanRikaL//

Karumbu thinna yenakku-k- Kooli vaendumaa?... Nanrhi... kalh.. kalh.. kalh.!!!

[viggop]

Idiappam
Excellent posting on varnams from Tholkapiyam.
Please continue your work.
We can all enjoy the greatness of thamizh isai standing on your hard-working shoulders :-)

[Idiappam]

Thank you Geno - that online dictionary would be useful. And thanks to Sudhama and Viggop too.

BTW, Tamils had various types of flutes and pipes, harps (yazh) and drums. Did they have some sort of fiddle - stringed but played with a bow??? What is the Tamil name for that?? Checking.... Anyone....

[viggop]

I have seen rajasthan folk musicians use a instrument which has only a single string and a bow.

[Idiappam]

kinnaram - The violin of the Tamils

Thirunavukkarasar (5 - 6th century AD) frequently mentions this instruments in his Thevaram.

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ÅÇÕí §¸¡Ä ÅÇ÷º¨¼ ¡÷츢¼í
¸¢ÇÕõ §Àâ¨ºì ¸¢ýÉÃõ À¡ð¼È¡ì
¸ÇÕí ¸¡÷츼õ â÷ì¸Ãì §¸¡Â¢§Ä. 5.19.1

µ¾ Á¡¸¼ø ÝÆ¢Äí ¨¸ì¸¢¨È
¸£¾í ¸¢ýÉÃõ À¡¼ì ¦¸ØŢɡý
À¡¾õ Å¡í¸¢ô Àâó¾Õû ¦ºö¾í§¸¡÷
¬¾¢ ¡¢Îõ ¬¨É측 «ñ½§Ä. 5.31.10

ÓÃÖí ¸¢ýÉÃõ ¦Á¡ó¨¾ ÓÆí¸§Å
þÃÅ¢ É¢ý¦Èâ ¡¼Ö ¿£ÎÅ¡ý
¿ÃÖõ šâ¿ý É¡¨Ãä÷ ¿õÀÛì
¸Ã×õ âϾø «õÁ «Æ¸¢§¾. 5.55.9

Å¢Îò¾ àÐÅ÷ ÅóРިÉìÌÆ¢ô
ÀÎò¾ §À¡Ð ÀÂÉ¢¨Ä À¡Å¢¸¡û
«Îò¾ ¸¢ýÉÃí §¸ðÌõÅ¡ð §À¡ì¸¢¨Â
±ÎòÐ §Áò¾¢Ôõ þýÒÚ Á¢ý¸§Ç. 5.86.2 [/tscii:1e0a8a7e4f]

In song 5.31.10 Appar says that even the Ilangai King Ravana sang the Lord with the Kinnaram accompaniment...

BTW, what does Kinnaram mean in Malayaalam?? Web search for 'kinnaram' showed many Malayaalam sites.. Just curious!

[viggop]

Idiappam Sir
What happened to these instruments?
How did the Kinnaram look like? was it a stringed instrument akin to the modern day violin? What happened to Yazh? How did it all disappear in later days? Did the musicians who practiced it lose interest with it and moved over to other instruments?
Some old instruments like mridangam,flute,veena etc are still there.

Hope the archaeolgy department finds some artifacts of these instruments. It would give us a clue to the type of sounds these instruments produce.Probably,people can learn to play it again if we know how it looked like.

[viggop]

Ravana is also supposed to be a great Veena player.

What is the history of nadhaswaram which is known for mangala isai? is it a very old instrument? Is there any reference to it in ancient Tamil texts? How was it known to ancient Tamilians?

[Sudhaama]

Dear Mr IDIAPPAM,

Many Thanks for your ENRICHMENT of this thread... by taking trouble to fech the Original Text forms of ... APT... Tamil Quotations...

... from PURHANAANOORHU ... and ... THAEVAARAM...

But on my TWO Requests...

(1) I am unable to follow the Purhanaanoorhu words.. . Will you please post its meanings also.... word by word.?

(2) VANNAM... as per your Quotations... Does it mean .. "VARNAM"... in the Carnatic-music... similar to Keerthana, Thillaana, Viruththam etc.... in a Concert?....

You know... coventionally the VARNAM... is sung as the Firstl item of Concert

[Surya]

WOW!! :shock: Excellent thread!! Thanks to Sudhamma, and Idiappam, Vignop, etc.! :thumbsup:

[viggop]

Idiappam
Like Sudhaama, I too would like to know the meanings of the Tamil quotes you had reproduced here.

[Idiappam]

Oh dear, I thought I could go on to 'pan peyarthal' (tonic shift) the Tamils described in their Literature - silapathigaram especially. Mr Sudhama, giving meanings 'word for word' for everything I quote would just keep me occupied and busy (Is that indended - I hope not).

Anyway, I will post the meanings soon.

Thank you anyway, for creating this opportunity to share with all of you the Greatness of Tamil Isai.. You too, Viggop and Surya.

Vazhga Pallaandu!

[Surya]

Thanks Idiappam! :clap: Eagerly waiting. :D :thumbsup:

[viggop]

dear Idiappam
You can post the meanings when you are free.Since, I do not know the meanings of classical tamil words,i would be really happy to know their meanings.Erudite people like you have already done the hard work of painstakingly finding the meanings.So,it would be easy for people like me to get to know them standing on your shoulders.No need to put hard work like you :wink:

If you feel that this work distracts you, you can carry on posting on Thamizh Isai only.Maybe, you can teach the meanings in some other thread. :D

[viggop]

[tscii:85cff56619]As there were discussions on varnams in this thread, posting a related topic
Chennaites can attend :-)


Prof S R Janakiraman, venerated musician and musicologist will conduct a special workshop on rare varnams at the Raga Sudha Hall, Chennai in early May. Organised by The International Foundation for Carnatic Music (IFCM), this will be a unique opportunity for students and amateur musicians as well as performers and teachers. They can get to learn a few of the most exquisite but rare varnams from one of the most erudite scholars of this era. The course will cover such rare gems as Ramaswami Dikshitar’s Valachivachi (Hindolavasantam), Subbarama Dikshitar’s Sami entani ne (Surati), Sonti Venktasubbaier’s Nenarunchi (Bilahari), Patnam Subramanya Iyer’s Evaremibodhana (Sahana), Pallavi Gopala Iyer’s Intachalamu (Kambhodhi) and Tiger Varadachar’s Kamalakshi (Manirangu).

Details

·Date: May 7 & 8, 2005.
·Timings: 9.30 am – 12.30 pm (with a 10 minute break in between).
·Venue: Raga Sudha Hall, Mylapore (behind Nageshwara Rao Park), Chennai.
·Open to: Professionals and non-professionals; vocalists and instrumentalists.
·Age: Between 8 and 80.
·Eligibility: Minimum 3 years of learning and/or repertoire of over 25 compositions.
·Recording: Allowed but strictly for personal use.
·Call: 2451 1133, 94440 64190, 98401 22711. Email: carnaticworld@yahoo.com[/tscii:85cff56619]

[Idiappam]

Idiappam
Like Sudhaama, I too would like to know the meanings of the Tamil quotes you had reproduced here.

Tholkappiam on VaNNams - explanatory notes

[tscii:baa97e4c74]Åñ½õ¾¡§Á ¿¡ø ³óÐ ±ýÀ. 204
There are VaNNam(s) twenty, they say.

«¨Å¾¡õ,
They are,

À¡« Åñ½õ ¾¡« Åñ½õ
ÅøÄ¢¨º Åñ½õ ¦ÁøÄ¢¨º Åñ½õ
þ¨ÂÒ Åñ½õ «Ç¦À¨¼ Åñ½õ
¦¿Îﺣ÷ Åñ½õ ÌÚﺣ÷ Åñ½õ
º¢ò¾¢Ã Åñ½õ ¿Ä¢Ò Åñ½õ
«¸ôÀ¡ðÎ Åñ½õ ÒÈôÀ¡ðÎ Åñ½õ
´ØÌ Åñ½õ ´å¯ Åñ½õ
±ñÏ Åñ½õ «¨¸ôÒ Åñ½õ
àí¸ø Åñ½õ ²ó¾ø Åñ½õ
¯ÕðÎ Åñ½õ ÓÎÌ Åñ½õ ±ýÚ


¬íÌ ±É ¦Á¡Æ¢À «È¢ó¾¢º¢§É¡§Ã. 205
know ye, these are the (vaNNam) twenty.

«ÅüÚû,

À¡« Åñ½õ ¦º¡üº£÷òÐ ¬¸¢ áüÀ¡ø À¢Öõ. 206
pA(a) vaNNams
soRsIrththu = where words are set to a consistent meter (sIr)
nORpAl payilum - that we see often in books.


¾¡« Åñ½õ þ¨¼Â¢ðÎ Åó¾ ±Ð¨¸òÐ ¬Ìõ. 207
ethukai = rhyme
idaiyIttu ethukai = rhyming of the 3rd letter of alternate (idaiyIttu) lines
thA(a) vaNNams rhymes such.

ÅøÄ¢¨º Åñ½õ Åø¦ÄØòÐ Á¢Ì§Á. 208
vallezhuththu - hard consonants
vallisai vaNNam, in which hard consonants abound.
example:
Óò¨¾ò¾Õ Àò¾¢ò¾¢Õ¿¨¸
«ò¾¢ì¸¢¨È ºò¾¢îºÃŽ
Ó¾ò¾¢ì¦¸¡Õ Å¢òÐìÌÕÀà - ±É§Å¡Ðõ
- ¾¢ÕôÒ¸ú


¦ÁøÄ¢¨º Åñ½õ ¦Áø¦ÄØòÐ Á¢Ì§Á. 209
mellezhuththu - soft consonants
mellisai vaNNam, in which soft consonants abound.
example:
Àﺢ¦Â¡Ä¢÷ ŢﺢÌÇ¢÷ ÀøÄÅ ÁÛí¸
¦ºï¦ºÅ¢Â ¸ïº¿¢Á¢÷ º£ÃÊÂÇ¡¸¢
«ï¦º¡øÄ¢Ç Á層¦ÂÉ «ýɦÁÉ Á¢ýÛõ
Åﺢ¦ÂÉ ¿ïº¦ÁÉ ÅïºÁ¸û Åó¾¡û.
- ¸õÀ÷

þ¨ÂÒ Åñ½õ þ¨¼¦ÂØòÐ Á¢Ì§Á. 210
Idaiyezhuththu - medial consonants
iyaibu vaNNam, in which medial consonants abound.
example:
«øĢŢƢ ¡Öõ Óø¨Ä¿¨¸ ¡Öõ
«øÄøÀ¼ ¬¨º ...... ¸¼Ä£Ôõ
«ûÇŢɢ ¾¡¸¢ ¿øÄ¢Ã× §À¡Öõ
¯ûÇÅ¢¨É ¡÷ò ...... ¾ÉÁ¡Õõ
- ¾¢ÕôÒ¸ú

«Ç¦À¨¼ Åñ½õ «Ç¦À¨¼ À¢Öõ. 211
aLapedai - lengthening of the letters, the vowels or the mutes, just for the sake of the verse
payilum - are used
aLapedai vaNNam, in which such lengthening occurs often.

¦¿Îﺣ÷ Åñ½õ ¦¿ð¦¼ØòÐô À¢Öõ. 212
nettezhuththu - long vowels or vowel-consonants
neduncheer vaNNam, in which long vowels abound
example:
¡Á¡Á¡¿£ ¡Á¡Á¡ ¡ƣ¸¡Á¡ ¸¡½¡¸¡
¸¡½¡¸¡Á¡ ¸¡Æ£Â¡ Á¡Á¡Â¡¿£ Á¡Á¡Â¡.
¡¸¡Â¡Æ£ ¸¡Â¡¸¡ ¾¡Â¡Ã¡Ã¡ ¾¡Â¡Â¡
¡¡¾¡Ã¡ ᡾¡ ¸¡Â¡¸¡Æ£ ¡¸¡Â¡.
- Sambandar Thevaram

ÌÚﺣ÷ Åñ½õ Ìü¦ÈØòÐô À¢Öõ. 213
kuRRezhuthuthu - short vowels or vowel-consonants
kuRuncheer vaNNam - in which short vowels abound

º¢ò¾¢Ã Åñ½õ ¦¿ÊÂ×õ ÌÈ¢Â×õ §¿÷óÐ ¯¼ý ÅÕ§Á. 214
Chitra vaNNam, in which both long and short vowels occurs.

¿Ä¢Ò Åñ½õ ¬ö¾õ À¢Öõ. 215
nalibu vaNNam, in which the letter Aitham (akh) occurs often.

«¸ôÀ¡ðÎ Åñ½õ ÓÊ¡ò ¾ý¨Á¢ý ÓÊó¾¾ý §Áü§È. 216
akapaattu vaNNam, in which the subject (matter) is complete but the verse isn't.

ÒÈôÀ¡ðÎ Åñ½õ ÓÊó¾Ð §À¡ýÚ ÓÊ¡¾¡Ìõ. 217
puRapaattu vaNNam, in which the verse is complete but the subject isn't.

´ØÌ Åñ½õ µ¨ºÂ¢ý ´ØÌõ. 218
ozhugu vaNNam, in which the sounds are in an easy and flowing style.

´å¯ Åñ½õ ´å¯ò ¦¾¡¨¼ ¦¾¡ÎìÌõ. 219
orUu vaNNam, consists of 'blank verses'
'Blank verses' are made up of unrhymed syllables.

±ñÏ Åñ½õ ±ñÏô À¢Öõ. 220
eNNu - number, numericals, counts
eNNu vaNNam, in which numbers or counts are used.
example:
´ýÚ ¦ÅñÀ¢¨Èì ¸ñ½¢§Â¡÷ §¸¡Å½õ
´ýÚ ¸£Ù¨Á §Â¡Î ÓÎò¾Ð
´ýÚ ¦Åñ¼¨Ä §Â󾢦Âõ ¯ûÇò§¾
´ýÈ¢ ¿¢ýÈí ̨ÈÔõ ´ÕŧÉ.

þÃñÎ Á¡ÁÅ÷ì ÌûÇÉ ¦ºö¦¾¡Æ¢ø
þÃñÎ Á¡ÁÅ÷ì ÌûÇÉ §¸¡Äí¸û
þÃñÎ Á¢øÄ¢Ç Á¡¦É¨Á ¡ٸóÐ
þ¢ÃñÎ §À¡Ð¦Áý º¢ó¨¾Ôû ¨Å̧Á.
- «ôÀ÷ §¾Å¡÷õ


«¨¸ôÒ Åñ½õ «ÚòÐ «ÚòÐ ´ØÌõ. 221
akaippu - lacking flow, harmony
aRuththu - to part or cut.
akaippu vaNNam, in which lines are made of parts, sections.

àí¸ø Åñ½õ Åﺢ À¢Öõ. 222
vanchi - vanchippa (this disctinctivly consists of 2 vanchi sIr, with each sIrs usually having up to four asai)
(--- to elaborate if possible)
thUngal vaNNam consists of vanchi sIrs

²ó¾ø Åñ½õ ¦º¡øĢ ¦º¡øÄ¢ý ¦º¡øÄ¢ÂÐ º¢ÈìÌõ. 223
Enthal - to support (strengthen)
Enthal vannam - in which the words are repeated for strength and clarity.

¯ÕðÎ Åñ½õ «Ã¡¸õ ¦¾¡ÎìÌõ. 224
uruttu - roll
arAgam - the succession of short letters in a verse rapidly repeated
uruttu vaNNam - in which the syllables occurs in rapid succession
example:
¯ÕÓÃÚ ¸ÕŢ ¦ÀÕÁ¨Æ ¾¨ÄþÂ
- «¸õ 158

ÓÎÌ Åñ½õ ÓÊÅÈ¢ ¡Áø «ÊÀ¢Èó ¦¾¡Ø¸¢ «¾ý µÃü§È. 225
mudivaRi yAmal - non ending
adipiRan thozhugi - forming new line
athan OraRRE - like the above (uruttu vaNNam)
mudugu - to appear in multitudes in quick succession
mudugu vaNNam - like uruttu vaNNam but with endless number of lines containing aRagam
example:
À¢¨È½¢ À¼÷º¨¼ ÓÊ¢¨¼ô
¦ÀÕ¸¢Â ÒÉÖ¨¼ ÂÅÉ¢¨È
þ¨È½¢ ŨÇ¢¨½ Ó¨ÄÂÅ
Ç¢¨½ÅÉ ¦¾Æ¢Ö¨¼ ¢¼Å¨¸
¸¨È½¢ ¦À¡Æ¢ø¿¢¨È ÅÂĽ¢
¸ØÁÄõ «Á÷¸Éø ¯ÕÅ¢Éý
¿¨È½¢ ÁÄ÷¿Ú Å¢¨ÃÒøÌ
¿ÄõÁÄ¢ ¸Æø¦¾¡Æý ÁÕקÁ.
- Sambandar Thevaram

Åñ½õ¾¡§Á þ¨Å ±É ¦Á¡Æ¢À. 226
These (the above) are the vaNNams, they(those before the author) say. [/tscii:baa97e4c74]

That is the best explanation of the Tholkappiam text on vaNNams, I can give, with examples. Feel free to comment or correct.

[viggop]

Idiappam
Excellent! you gave us the examples too.It must have been painstaking for you to collect and put them here for our sake.Thanks a lot.

[viggop]

[tscii:5a57d83518]
À¡« Åñ½õ ¦º¡üº£÷òÐ ¬¸¢ áüÀ¡ø À¢Öõ. 206
pA(a) vaNNams
soRsIrththu = where words are set to a consistent meter (sIr)
nORpAl payilum - that we see often in books.


Looking from the above lines, it means that even during tholkapiyar times,there were some books(Olai chuvadi format?) where people could read from. It was not memorized and passed down like the Vedas from teacher to students?

[/tscii:5a57d83518]

[Idiappam]

Viggop,

Tholkappiam is about 2500 years old, the earliest and most important of Tamil works available now - with extensive accounts on Grammer rules. This just shows that the Tamil language was much developed and matured during the time of Tholkappiam.

Tholkappiar, in many instances, mentions books and people before him - sometimes not stating their names. This is just one instance.

Sabapathy

[Sudhaama]

Dear Mr. Sabapathy,

There are different schools of opinion amongst the Scholars...

(1) ...on the Age of Tholkappiam ... considered to be the most Ancient Tamil-Leterature... as you say... some mention it as 2500 years... and some others say... more than 5000 years...

... However...in such ancient Tamil-Letarature of several THOUSANDS OF YEARS ... there is mention of Thamizh-Isai means.. we can understand... how far Thamizh-Isai must be ancient... perhaps even before Tholkaappiam

(2) Another Scholarly Opinion is... that Thirukkuralh... is the MOST ANCIENT Tamil-Literature....of more than 5000 years... (even prior to Tholkaappiam) although it was acknowleged into the Tamilian-fold very late... as well as accepted by the then Thamizh-ch-Changam... too very very late... after the Strong supportive advocation by Avvaiyaar..

... And even in such ancient Tamil-Literature Thirukkural... we find mention of Musical-instruments..... like Kuzhal, Yaazh... etc.... and the high value of Music. ....

... treating Musical-Instruments.. as the BEST COMPARISON for generating Sweetness.!!!

[viggop]

Sudhama
Lot of western scholars do not accept the dates of 5000 years.The earliest Indian literature they ascribe is Rig Veda and they give a date of 1000BC only. Some western scholars says that Thiruvalluvar lived in 8century AD and he was a Jain monk.Tolkapiar lived in 4th century AD and he too was a Jain monk!!!
Ilango adikal was also a jain monk(though silapadhikaram has lot of references to Hindu Gods like Krishna and mythologies and even contains references to Thiruvalluvar)

According to one Srilankan Scholar(dont remember his name), Jainism was the first organized religion of Tamils and they became Hindus later only.It was because of being Jains that Tamils started writing and documentation and before that everything was orally passed.

Sorry for going on a tangent here as these things are offtopic and not related to Thamizh Isai.

Idiappam/Sabapathy Sir
Please continue your posting on pan peyarthal which you promised us :D

[rajraj]

viggop: Ancient Tamil country saw three religions -saivism, budhdhism and samaNam(jainism)- competing for dominance. You can see references to samaNam in Thevaram. Some say the thevaram verses in Tamil were composed to counter the onslaught of samaNam. It was meant to be sung by the common man/woman and learn about savism. That marked the beginning of bhakthi movement in India. If you have Thevaram, you might want to read it.

[viggop]

Forgot to mention the name of Oothakadu Venkata SubbaIyer
who has composed a lot of Thamizh songs.

[Idiappam]

Before coming to Pan Peyarthal, later this evening, just a question:

Which came first - the pentatonic scales (5 notes) or the septatonic scales (7 notes)??

Ok, to make my question clearer:
The mela ragas (septatonic) gave birth to the janya ragas,

or the mela ragas were derived from the pentatonic 'janya' raga by the inclusion of two additional notes?

Sabapathy

[rajraj]

Idiappam,
I remember reading somewhere that ancient vedic chanting used three or four notes. Ancient flute made of animal bone had only four notes. If I can find my books on music, I can verify and let you know. I think music began with three notes and progressed to seven notes.

[viggop]

rajraj
SOme parts of the Rig Veda and the sama veda are supposed to be sung musically.I have heard this type vedic chanting in some ceremonies I have attended in TN.It was nice to hear that though I did not understand the meanings which the brahmins were chanting

[rajraj]

viggop,
Ravishankar (the sitar maestro) says, in his book( My music, my life}, that the earliest chanting was just one note. It progressed to two, three and four. Later they were sung to five,six and seven notes. 'om' has only two notes.
He also says that India developed the seven note octave system long before the west found it.
More later!

[Idiappam]

Viggop said:

SOme parts of the Rig Veda and the sama veda are supposed to be sung musically.

Vedas (not all, probably only the Sama veda) is sung on 3 notes ONLY. Not at all enough to call that music!

[Idiappam]

List of Tamil PaNs (tunes) - as seen in Pinkala NigaNdu

[tscii:76f5ff0867]¾Á¢ú Àñ¸û

¦ÀÕõÀñ - 16
1. À¡¨Ä¡ú 2. ¦ºóÐ 3. Áñ¼Ä¢Â¡ú 4. ¦ÀÇâ 5. Áվ¡ú 6. §¾Å¾¡Ç¢ 7. ¿¢ÕÀÐí¸Ã¡¸õ 8. ¿¡¸Ã¡¸õ 9. ÌȢﺢ¡ú 10. ¬º¡Ã¢ 11. º¡Â§ÅÇ÷ ¦¸¡øÄ¢ 12. ¸¢ýÉá¸õ 13. ¦ºùÅÆ¢ 14. ¦ÁǺ¡Ç¢ 15. º£Ã¡¸õ 16. ºó¾¢

À¡¨Ä¡úò ¾¢Èý - 20
1. ¾ì¸Ã¡¸õ 2. «ó¾¡Ç¢À¡¨¼ 3. «ó¾¢ 4. ÁýÈø 5. §¿÷¾¢Èõ 6. ÅÃ¡Ê 7. ¦Àâ ÅÃ¡Ê 8. º¡Ââ 9. ÀïºÁõ 10. ¾¢Ã¡¼õ 11. «ØíÌ 12. ¾É¡º¢ 13. §º¡Áá¸õ 14. §Á¸Ã¡¸õ 15. Ðì¸Ã¡¸õ 16. ¦¸¡øÄ¢ÅÃ¡Ê 17. ¸¡ó¾¡Ãõ 18. º¢¸ñÊ 19. §¾º¡ì¸¢Ã¢ 20. ÍÕ¾¢ ¸¡ó¾¡Ãõ

Áվ¡úò ¾¢Èý - 16
1. ¾ì§¸º¢ 2. ¦¸¡øÄ¢ 3. ¬Ã¢ÂÌîºÃ¢ 4. ¿¡¸¦¾¡É¢ 5. º¡¾¡Ç¢ 6. ¾Á¢ú §ÅÇ÷¦¸¡øÄ¢ 7. ¸¡ó¾¡Ãõ 8. Ü÷ó¾ ÀïºÁõ 9. À¡ì¸Æ¢ 10. ¾ò¾É ÀïºÁõ 11. Á¡Ðí¸ Ã¡¸õ 12. ¦¸ªº¢¸õ 13. º£¸¡ÁÃõ 14. º¡Ãø 15. º¡í¸¢Áõ 16. þó¾Çõ

ÌȢﺢ¡úò ¾¢Èý - 32
1. ¿ð¼À¡¨¼ 2. «ó¾¡Ç¢ 3. Áĸâ 4. Å¢Àﺢ 5. ¸¡ó¾¡Ãõ 6. ¦ºÕó¾¢ 7. ¯¾Â¸¢Ã¢ 8. ¦¸ªÊ 9. ÀïÍÃõ 10. ÀÆõ ÀïÍÃõ 11. §Á¸Ã¡¸ì ÌȢﺢ 12. §¸¾¡Ç¢ 13. ÌȢﺢ 14. ¦¸ªÅ¡½õ 15. À¡¨¼ 16. Ý÷Ðí¸Ã¡¸õ 17. ¿¡¸õ 18. ÁÕû 19. ÀÆó¾ì¸Ã¡¸õ 20. ¾¢ùŢ ÅÃ¡Ê 21. Ó¾¢÷ó¾ Å¢ó¾Çõ 22. «Ûò¾¢÷ ÀïºÁõ 23. ¾Á¢úì ÌîºÃ¢ 24. «ÕðÒâ 25. ¿¡Ã¡Â½¢ 26. ¿ð¼Ã¡¸õ 27. þáÁ츢â 28. Ţ¡úìÌȢﺢ 29. ÀïºÁõ 30. ¾ì¸½¡¾¢ 31. º¡Å¸ì ÌȢﺢ 32. ¬¿ó¨¾

¦ºùÅÆ¢ ¡úò ¾¢Èý - 16
1. ÌÈñÊ 2. ¬Ã¢Â §ÅÇ÷§¸¡øÄ¢ 3. ¾Û측ﺢ 4. þÂó¨¾ 5. ¡úÀ¾í¸¡Ç¢ 6. ¦¸¡ñ¨¼ì¸¢Ã¢ 7. º£ÅÉ¢ 8. ¡¨Á 9. º¡Ç÷ 10. À¡½¢ 11. ¿¡ð¼õ 12. ¾¡Ï 13. Óø¨Ä 14. º¡¾¡Ã¢ 15. ¨ÀÃÅõ 16. ¸¡ïº¢

ÁüÚó¾¢Èý - 3
1. ¾¡÷ôÀñ¾¢Èõ 2. ¨ÀÔû¸¡ïº¢ 3. ÀÎÁ¨Ä[/tscii:76f5ff0867]

List of Tamil PaNs in Thevarams and Nalayira Theivappanuval (thiviya brapandam) will follow.

[viggop]

Idiappam Sir
WHat is this "Pinkala Nigandu"
Is that a book on Tamil Pan? who composed it and what is the time period? What is the meaning of the word "Pingala Nigandu"?

Lot of Pans seems to have sankrit names! So, I guess this book might have been composed after cultural exchanges between North and South musicians.

When the sama veda was composed , probably only 3 notes were known to the composers then.

I think this thread should be come a sticky on Thamizh Isai!!!

[Idiappam]

Viggop said:

Idiappam Sir
WHat is this "Pinkala Nigandu"
Is that a book on Tamil Pan? who composed it and what is the time period? What is the meaning of the word "Pingala Nigandu"?
Pingala Nigandu - a Tamil Lexicon composed by Pingalar, 10th Century AD.


Lot of Pans seems to have sankrit names! So, I guess this book might have been composed after cultural exchanges between North and South musicians.
Viggop, not 'Lot' of pans but a few. And why 'cultural exchanges'?? I don't know if the Tamils of the 10th century ate Bombay Halwa!


When the sama veda was composed , probably only 3 notes were known to the composers then.
There is no reference to music or notes in the Sama Veda - the Vedics were against music, as you can see from the Manu Smriti - music was the occupation of 'outcasts'

Sabapathy

[viggop]

Idiappam Sir
Thanks for the information on Pingalar.
By cultural exchange, I meant Sanskrit names were accepted into Tamil society and maybe the names were in Sanskrit because raga had a similar name in N.India.So, that raga was given to South and maybe some Tamil Pans might have been used in N.India too.

I did not know that Vedics were against music.Because most Hindu Gods like saraswathi(veena),Naradar(veena?),Krishna(flute) ,Shiva(damarum) were associated with music.Or it could be that these Gods & Godesses were Tamil Gods and vedics later adopted them? Even in Tamil literature, I have read that musicians were treated as a lower caste.Avvaiyar is usually described as a poetess from the caste of bards.I read this in an essay by Prof.George Hart.

Please continue your posting on thevaram,divya prabandham pans and also pan peyarthal etc.Also, please write about nadhaswaram which i guess is an old Tamil instrument.

[Sudhaama]

Dear Mr. Idiappam,

Many Many Thanks for enlightening us ... with so much of Rich-Documental informations on our Great-Thamizh-Isai...

... especially for all the pains you have taken to ellicit and gather such highly valuable News

... which MUST REACH one and all the Tamilians and others too all over. the Globe.

Please continue.

[Sudhaama]

"viggop"

// By cultural exchange, I meant Sanskrit names were accepted into Tamil society and maybe the names were in Sanskrit because raga had a similar name in N.India.So, that raga was given to South and maybe some Tamil Pans might have been used in N.India too.//

Tamilian-Scholars used to participate in the All-India debates and Seminars called SADAS ... convened by the olden-days Kings...

... on various subjects of common-interest and concern on Indian- Culture...

... and one of such subjects was.... Music.

Most of the other Indian-Scholars.. in the course of debates and Seminars ...were using Sanskrit Terminologies...

... since they were accepted and taken into their Regional-linguistic folds too ... by the same term .. as of Sanskrit

... and so found such usage... convenient for mutual expressions and conversation... amongst such various Scholars from different Linguistic- groups

For example ... one such Sanskrit- Word... prevalent in all the Indian Languages ..

... being called by one Common- term amongst all of them as.. RAGA.. only...

...Since.. they do not have any separate another Regional-Language word for Raga... all over India!!

... Unlike Tamil ... where we call the Raga as .."PANH"

But for the Convenience of mutual-grasping, identification and understanding... Tamilian Music-Scholars used to quote as Raga-Panh...

... just as a matter of CIRCUMSTANTIAL -CONVENIENCE .

// I did not know that Vedics were against music//

No Confusion necessary... Music is part of Veda.. and the Vedic- Sasthras.

.. Rather the "Nadham" .. the Musical-sound.. has emanated from the Sound..." OHM."... the Origin of DIVINITY.

//.Because most Hindu Gods like saraswathi(veena), Naradar(veena?), Krishna(flute) ,Shiva(damarum) were associated with music//

Beautifully you have analysed... Yes. You are CORRECT.

//.Or it could be that these Gods & Godesses were Tamil Gods and vedics later adopted them?//

There is No Tamil-Gods... or... Hindi-Gods... and so on. All the Vedic- Gods are COMMON to the whole World Society as well as the entire Cosmic- World too..... beyond Earth...

Siva-Lokam and Vaikuntam are not confined to Earth alone...

Lord Siva is addressed as... "YEN- NAATTAVARHKUM IRHAIVAA POATRI" ... and also as... VISWANAATHAN.

Lord Vishnu is addressed as... VEETRU- IRUNDHU YAEZH- ULAHAM THANIKKOAL SELLA VEEVIL SEER-AATRAL MIKKA AALHUM AMMAANAE ... and also as.... JAGANNAATHAN.

// Even in Tamil literature, I have read that musicians were treated as a lower caste.Avvaiyar is usually described as a poetess from the caste of bards.I read this in an essay by Prof.George Hart //

A Separate Caste as... PAANHAR. ... yes.. Panh-paaduvoar ... Paanhar.

Manu-Smrithi is NOT A SASTHRAM ... nor a Vedic- Gospel.... but just one Tyrannical King- made MANIPULATION.... of olden-days... but

... REJECTED and ...UNACCEPTED by Vedic-Scholars... even during those days of Forcible IMPOSITION by the Dictatorial Kings of those days..

... unfairly DISCRIMINATING by vivi-sectioning One United Society as broadly described and deemed CLEARLY AND EMPHATICALLY SO by ...

..Vedas.... imbued with the Hearty spirit of UNIVERSAL- LOVE ... YAAVARUM- KAELHIR.... and...

... further INSISTS.. to PREFERABLY pray God through Music... by Songs, Bajans and Sthothras too ... set to Music...

.. Which Nayanmars and Alwars had IMPLEMENTED... long ago.

[Idiappam]

Viggop said:


By cultural exchange, I meant Sanskrit names were accepted into Tamil society and maybe the names were in Sanskrit because raga had a similar name in N.India.So, that raga was given to South and maybe some Tamil Pans might have been used in N.India too.

What is more important here is the character of the paNs, not their names. But if you look carefully they may not be sanskrit at all, but sanskritised Tamil name. But the study root words of these names is something that can be discussed later here.


I did not know that Vedics were against music.Because most Hindu Gods like saraswathi(veena),Naradar(veena?),Krishna(flute) ,Shiva(damarum) were associated with music.Or it could be that these Gods & Godesses were Tamil Gods and vedics later adopted them?

They are NOT vedic gods!


Even in Tamil literature, I have read that musicians were treated as a lower caste.Avvaiyar is usually described as a poetess from the caste of bards.I read this in an essay by Prof.George Hart.

Wrong! How much more are you going to put down Tamil Literature. Avvaiyaar said, 'ittAr periyAr idAthAr izhikulathAr' - that puts an end to the misconception of caste discrimination - in Tamil Literature!

[rshankar]

In continuation with all of this is the belief of the divine origin of all of our classical performing arts. If I remember correctly, myth has it that after creating the 4 vEdas, Brahma realised that the study and practice of these were confined only to the twice-born men, excluding the majority of the population. Therefore, he created a fifth veda that was available for all to practice. He is said to have taken vAk (speech) from the rig vEda, ishai (music) from the sAma vEda, aBinaya (expression of emotion) from the yajur vEda, and rasa (experience/sentiment) from the atharva vEda to create the fifth, and he called it the nAtyavEda. A practioner of this vEda was called a 'nata' and he/she was adept in dancing, singing and acting, and the first production by the practioners of this vEda was 'kshIrasAgaramanTHanam'. The tenets of the nAtya vEda were codified by a sage called Baratha muni - no connection to the Barath after whom India is called BArath, or to BarathanAtyam. Over time, the three aspects of the "nata's" abilities were split, giving rise to musicians who did not dance or act, and actors who did not sing or dance very well. Dancers by and large, do learn music and are well versed with most forms of aBinaya, except vAchika aBinaya (aBinaya through the spoken word). So, I think there is music in sAma vEda (you just have to listen to the chanting of sAma vEda: it is not like the chanting of the others..) even if it was not intended! :)

BTW, the name VISWANATHAN has no reference to music. In this name, Shiva is simply referred to as the nATH (god, leader, husband, etc) of the whole universe; nATH is not to be confused with nAdh which is sound or music. I realize that in thamizh they will be written the same way and may even be pronounced the same, which is one of my pet peeves! Explains why someone with a lovely name like padhmanABan becomes bathmanAban (batman for short!)

[Sudhaama]

Mr. Ravi-Shankar

//, the name VISWANATHAN has no reference to music. In this name, Shiva is simply referred to as the nATH (god, leader, husband, etc) of the whole universe; nATH is not to be confused with nAdh which is sound or music.//

Yes... But you have mistaken my Quoting the name of Siva being Viswanathan... that I had related it to NADH... No ..Not so .. but NATH only

... Meaning the Supreme of the Whole Universe...

I reproduce herebelow my reply on the Question ... whether Lord Siva is the TAMIL-GOD???

// There is No Tamil-Gods... or... Hindi-Gods... and so on. All the Vedic- Gods are COMMON to the whole World Society as well as the entire Cosmic- World too..... beyond Earth...

Siva-Lokam and Vaikuntam are not confined to Earth alone...

Lord Siva is addressed as... "YEN- NAATTAVARHKUM IRHAIVAA POATRI" ... and also as... VISWANAATHAN.

Lord Vishnu is addressed as... VEETRU- IRUNDHU YAEZH- ULAHAM THANIKKOAL SELLA VEEVIL SEER-AATRAL MIKKA AALHUM AMMAANAE ... and also as.... JAGANNAATHAN.

[Idiappam]

LET ME make it clear, once and for all!

There is NO music in the Vedas! Sama veda is 'sung' with 3 notes only, and if not for the human voice in it, it will sound just like any fire siren! That, the Sama Veda should be sung with that 3 notes is a practice that came much later.

I DARE all those to rebutt this to give me the Vedic verses that talks about music. - THERE IS NONE!

The first ever text on music in Sanskrit is the Sangeeta Ratnakara of SarangaDeva - 13th Century AD. Prior to this we have only Tamil writings on music and MUSICOLOGY!

The word 'RAGA' is NOT Sanskrit - but Tamil.

THE 'CREATORS' OF INDIAN MUSIC ARE THE TAMILS!

Now, would you sanskrit lovers let me get on with the 'Great Tamil Isai'?

Sabapathy

[rajraj]

Idiappam,
Here is quote from History of South Indian(Carnatic) Music by Rangaramanuja Ayyangar.

'A harvest of 11991 PaNNs known as Adi Isai was the result. Subsequent elimination of unmelodic combinations among them reduced a number to 103. The Tevaram songs of later times used some of the most popular of these PaNNs.'

This number 11991 is from Silappadhikaram and the quote is from the chapter on Silappadhikaram. I suspect it is from 'Kaanalvari'.

Clearly, the Tamils had a very advanced system of music about 2000 years back. They were able to enumerate all the PaNNs using 5,6 and 7 notes. It is the only work to mention such analysis at that time or even later.

What happened to that knowledge? What made that system perish? Did the 72 melakarta (parent scale) system evolve from the 103 PaNNs?

[Sudhaama]

Dear Mr. Sabapathy,

I do not understand the sense behind your wortding addressing... SANSKRIT-LOVERS???

Do you mean all the Sanskrit-Lovers are .. ANTI- TAMIL...?

I am a Sanskrit-Student during the School-days... what is my Stand on Tamil-Language... Should I clarify.. even after my active participation more in the RICH Tamil-Literature Threads... here...

In fact ... I am a Linguist... knowing several Languages... and I love all the Languages.. prevalent all over the World...

...including the Tribal-Languages like Badaga, Gondi, Santhali .. etc..

... as well as that one.... so called Dead-Language... Sanskrit ...which You hate!!!.. God Knows Why????

If you want to ESTABLISH that Music was Founded by Tamilian Culture...

... which later on EXPANDED to all over India... it is an INCREDIBLE News to me.. Please go ahead

[Idiappam]

Do you mean all the Sanskrit-Lovers are .. ANTI- TAMIL...?

Not all, some just pretend to be Tamil-Lovers!

[viggop]

Idiappam/Sabapathy Sir
I did not put down Tamil Literature.As I said,that essay was written by Prof.George Hart(Tamil Chair at Univerisity of Berkley).In it, he gave quotes to agananuru and purananuru which mentioned that there was a caste of bards.
I have not read either agananuru/purananuru so Prof.Hart might have interpreted things in his own way.Paanars were musicians like Yaazhpaanar.

Please do not divide people as Sanskrit lovers/Tamil lovers etc.It is against the Tamil philosophy of respecting other things like the Nayanmars did.I love both sanskrit ,Tamil,Teleugu and all other languages and hence I'm able to enjoy songs in all of them.

Why are you worrying that people are trying to take the credit away from Tamils? Just ask them to look at present day carnatic scenario.Almost every legend in carnatic field are Tamilians and we have won the most number of Sangeetha kalanidhi awards.
Tamils not only created carnatic music but now it is preserved by Tamils only.Who can challenge this assertion? Other classical things like Bharathanatyam dance is also preserved by Tamils only.Many famous dancers like padma subramanian,yamini krishnamurty,chitra vishveshwaran,alarmel valli are Tamils. Chennai,capital of TN, is the Mecca for both classical dance and carnatic music.
It'll be a long long time for anyone to beat us :wink: (unless we become very arrogant and haughty that Lord Shiva decides to remove the knowledge from us)
So,stop worrying :D

This is not to discredit people from other states.There were legends like chowdiah,balamurlikrishna,chembai vaidyanatha bhagavathar,dwaram venakataswamy naidu and lot of greats from other states too.Even John higgins and Harold Powers(first non hindu to sing in thygaraja aradhana in 1955) are there from other countries.They probably do not have the facilities we Tamils have like having a long history.


Please continue your posting on thamizh isai now. :D

[viggop]

List of Sangeetha Kalanidhis
==============================

1929 T. V. Subba Rao, T. S. Sabesha Iyer and M. S. Ramaswamy Iyer
1930 Harikesanallur Muthiah Bhagavatar and T. V. Subba Rao
1931 Pazhamaneri Swaminatha Iyer
1932 Tiger Varadachariar
1933 K. Ponnayya Pillai
1934 T. S. Sabesha Iyer
1935 Mysore K. Vasudevacharya
1936 Umayalapuram Swaminatha Iyer
1937 Chidambara Bhagavatar
1938 Ariyakudi Ramanuja Iyengar
1939 Musiri Subramania Iyer
1940 Kallidaikurichi Vedanta Bhagavatar
1941 Professor Venkataswami Naidu
1942 Mazhavarayanendal Subbarama Bhagavatar
1943 Palladam Sanjiva Rao - flute
1944 T. L. Venkatarama Iyer
1945 Maharajapuram Vishwanatha Iyer
1946 no award - birth centenary of Tyagaraja
1947 Semmangudi Srinivasa Iyer
1948 Rajamanickam Pillai
1949 Mudicondan Venkatrama Iyer
1950 Karur Chinnaswamy Iyer
1951 Chembai Vaidhyanatha Bhagavatar
1952 Karaikudi Sambasiva Iyer
1953 Tirupampuram N. Swaminatha Pillai - flute
1954 Chittur Subramanya Pillai
1955 Marungapuri Gopalakrishna Iyer
1956 Tiruvizhimizhalai Subramanya Pillai - nadaswaram
1957 T. Chowdiah
1958 G. N. Balasubramaniam - vocal
1959 Madurai Mani Iyer - vocal
1960 T. K. Jayarama Iyer - violin
1961 Tiruvidamarudur Veerusami Pillai - nadaswaram
1962 K. Papa Venkataramiah
1963 Budulur Krishnamurthi Sastrigal
1964 Alathur Sivasubramanya Iyer
1965 Alathur srinivasa Iyer
1966 T. S. (Palghat) Mani Iyer - mridangam
1967 no award
1968 M. S. Subbulakshmi - vocal
1969 Madurai Srirangam Iyer
1970 D. K. Pattammal - vocal
1971 Papanasam Sivan (age 81) - composer
1972 Professor P. Sambamoorthy - musicologist
1973 T. Balasaraswati - bharatanatyam
1974 R. Anantakrishna Sarma (age 81)
1975 no award - bi-centenary of Dikshitar
1976 T. Brinda - vocal
1977 M. L. Vasanthakumari - vocal
1978 M. Balamurali Krishna - vocal
1979 K. S. Narayanaswamy - veena
1980 T. N. Krishnan
1981 T. M. Thiyagarajan
1982 Embar S. Vijayaraghavachariar
1983 Dr. S. Pinakapani
1984 Mysore V. Doreswamy Iyengar
1985 Dr. S. Ramanathan
1986 K. V. Narayanaswamy
1987 B. Rajam Iyer
1988 Prof. T. Viswanathan - flute
1989 Maharajapuram V. Santhanam
1990 D. K. Jayaraman - vocal
1991 Nedunuri Krishnamurthy
1992 Thanjai K. P. Sivanandam
1993 Mani Krishnaswami - vocal
1994 T. K. Murthy - mridangam
1995 R. K. Srikantan
1996 Dr. N. Ramani - flute
1997 M. S. Gopalakrishnan - violin
1998 Sheik Chinna Moula - nadaswaram
1999 T. K. Govinda Rao - vocal
2000 R. Vedavalli - vocal
2001 Umayalpuram K Shivaraman - mridangam
2002 Sikkil Sisters (Neela & Kunjumani) - flute
2003 T. V. Shankaranarayanan - vocal
2004 Vellore Ramabhadran --- mridangam


From the above list,tell me how many are non-Tamils? :-)
It is the proof that Tamils need not worry about losing carnatic music ;-)

[Idiappam]

Viggop said:

From the above list,tell me how many are non-Tamils

Pray tell me, how many in the list sang Tamil? Composed Tamil?? Where is Dhandapani Deshikar on the list? He was awarded the Tamil Isai Perarignar title in 1957.

Why did Papanasam Sivan take so long (1971 till near his death) to get his Kalanithi title?? Because he composed in Tamil. Sivan got his Tamil Isai Perariggar title in 1965.

And where are Isai Peraringnars Darmapuram Swaminathan (1986) and Kirupanantha Vari (1967} on that list?? Ignored - they sang Tamil!

And where is our composer Isai Peraignar (1972) Periasamy Thooran on your list?? Ignored - he composed Tamil!


It is the proof that Tamils need not worry about losing carnatic music

Tamils need not worry at all about losing carnatic music, as it is just an infertile offshoot of Tamil Isai - I said that earlier.

Please Mr Viggop, perhaps you don't know, but the impression given to the people is that carnatic music has a non-Tamil Origin - That's rubbish!

[Idiappam]

rajraj said:

This number 11991 is from Silappadhikaram and the quote is from the chapter on Silappadhikaram. I suspect it is from 'Kaanalvari'.

Raj, I can't locate that in The Silapadhikaram. Perhaps, it occurs in Adiyarkku Nallars (12th century AD) comentrary on Silapathikaram - I don't have that with me! Any leads?

[rajraj]

Idiappam,
I have a few books on music,thevaram,thiruvasakam,thiruppavai and other Tamil works. I don't have Adiyarkku nallaar urai. There is a book by a western musicologist. He also mentions the number. I have misplaced the book. When I find it I will let you know whether the source is Silappadhikaram.

[viggop]

Idiappam Sir
Please do not consider Thamizh isai as something sung in Tamil only.

Even Lalgudi Jayaraman,Naina pillai,veena dhannamal,L.Subramaniam,NC Vasanthkokilam,Flute Mali,Madurai Somu,rajarathinam pillai are legends and they are not in the list.
Does it mean that these people also performed only in Thamizh and hence were ignored? Not at all.Lalgudi,LSUB,rajarathinam pillai have played for lot of songs in other languages.Kunnakudi Vaidyanathan is president of Thygaraja Aradhana Sabha for long time now.he should have got the award by now if I go by your logic!
These people also got Isai perarignar awards too!!!
There are many people in the list who have sung in all languages.

The musicians do NOT consider music as something that can be divided by lingusitic and geographical barriers. They consider it as an act of bhakthi and another way to reach God.I think that is the correct attitude towards music.Since we view music from outside,it is we who get divided by things like language,state, nationality,sex etc.How else can Christian like john Higgins and a muslim like ChinnaMoulana sing in thygaraja aradhana if you divide music by religions/nationalities/language?

50% of hindustani musicians are not Hindus.but,Hindu musicans do not compain about that.So, for a true musician,these things do not matter.only musicians with a superficial interest in music will get divided like this & get angry.Music unites and does not divide.

Carnatic music maybe an infertile offshoot(as per your opinion) but it is the only thing surviving now which links us to Thamizh isai.Tamil folk music is also there but folk music is the parent of classical music.So, we have to preserve carnatic music and Tamilians are already doing it whether people like it or not.
For e.g. Some modern stars in carnatic music are sudha ragunathan,sowmya,bombay jayashree,sanjay subramanian,TN seshagopalan,OS.thigarajan,OS Arun,embar kannan,ravikiran-shahsikiran,ghatam karthik etc Tamils only.

So,please do not worry unnecessarily and do not become angry.As long as Lord Shiva blesses Tamils, we will shine in classical dance and classical music.

Please continue your postings on Thamizh isai. :-)

[Idiappam]

Viggop said:


Carnatic music maybe an infertile offshoot(as per your opinion) but it is the only thing surviving now which links us to Thamizh isai.

No! Carantic music lacks the flavour of Tamil isai. Why is the GrahaBedham (pan peyarthal) feature of Tamil music not used in Carnatic music?? Why is it seen in Illayaraja's music?? Why did that man attract so many listeners??


Tamil folk music is also there but folk music is the parent of classical music.

That is just another branch of Tamil music - not the parent.


So, we have to preserve carnatic music and Tamilians are already doing it whether people like it or not.

Yes they are, as I said earlier, by going more towards Tamil singing! Ask Mr T.V. Sankaranarayanan - He got the award Tamil Isai Vendar too - recently!

Listen to his 'Aadum Chidambaramo' here
http://www.musicindiaonline.com/l/1/m/artist.30/

[viggop]

Dear Idiappam Sir
TVS also got the Sangeetha Kalanidhi too!!!

Ilaiyaraja is a musical genius.He knows not only carnatic music but also can compose folk songs.He is another living legend.He has recently released an album on Ramana Maharishi and also on Thiruvasagam.Ramana maharishi album has songs sung by Bombay jayashree and Unnikrishnan other than ilayaraja himself.But,unfortunately,modern tamil film composers are tending more towards rap,pop music filled with vulgar lyrics which demeans women.I hope someone is there to take over Ilayaraja reins and rejunevate Tamil film music.

Good to know that you accept that Tamils are preserving carnatic music(even without grahabedham).They are not only singing in Tamil but also new languages like Marathi(abhangs) and bengali(rabindra sangeeth) proving that music is beyond such walls!!! New instruments like mandolin,guitar,keyboard,sax are now coming inside our music.This is enriching our music and soon you will say that carnatic music has become "fertile" :-) Trust Lord Shiva to protect it.:-)

Happy listening to our great carnatic music.It really fills our soul with peace and takes away anger and other base feeling.Long live our great,divine,carnatic music!!!!

[viggop]

Eagerly awaiting pan peyarthal of Thamizh Isai!!!

[viggop]

GrehaBedham
==============================
http://www.carnaticmusic.esmartmusic.com/primer/grahabedam.htm

[viggop]

On Yazh
=======

http://classical-music-review.blogspot.com/2005/02/blog-post.html

[viggop]

Dear Sirinivasan

The aim of this thread is not to denigrate other languages but only emphasize the contribution of Tamils to carnatic music.Various references to music in Tamil Sangam and later literatures are posted in this topic.It emphasises the greatness of isai found in Tamil lieterature.
Telugu and kannada people can open new threads which tells about carnatic music in their literature too.Any true music lover will be above things like language,religion,nation etc.


Mod Msg: Please do not digress from the main topic. They will be pruned. And, please do NOT bring caste/religion issues here too.. Thanks.

[Idiappam]

The Seven Major Scales in Music - according to Elango Adigal.

Ok here we go! These are few lines from Silapathikaram - ArangetRa Kaathai..

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pAlai = scale
kural = C (sa)
thutham = D (ri)
kaikilai = E (ga)
uzhai = F (ma)
iLi = G (pa)
viLari = A (da)
tharam = B (ni)

Here, Ilango give the names of the 7 Major Scales and explains how they are derived - pan peryathal or palai thiripu.

C to C
cempAlai (T)
Ionian (G)
Dherasankaaabharanam (S)

D to D
padumalaippAlai (T)
Dorian (G)
Kharaharapriya (S)

E to E
sevvazhippAlai (T)
Phrygian (G)
Hanumathodi (S)

F to F
arumpAlai (T)
Lydian (G)
Mechakalyaani (S)

G to G
kOdippAlai (T)
Mixo-Lydian (G)
Harikaambhoji (S)

A to A
vilarippAlai (T)
Aeolian (G)
Natabhairavi (S)

B to B
mERcempAlai (T)
Locrian (G)
(non existent in carnatic)

** Tamil (T), Ancient Greek (G), Recent Carnatic Sanskritisation (S)

More on Western Modes and Scales:
http://www.empire.k12.ca.us/capistrano/Mike/capmusic/modes/modes.htm

What is 'cycle of fifths'?? Can Elango explain that?? We will see!

What is said in O. Goswami's book - History of Indian Music?? Anyone got a copy?

[viggop]

The Seven Major Scales in Music - according to Elango Adigal.

B to B
mERcempAlai (T)
Locrian (G)
(non existent in carnatic)

** Tamil (T), Ancient Greek (G), Recent Carnatic Sanskritisation (S)


Idiappam Sir,
Is B to B(mercempalai) permanently lost to us now in carnatic music? Is it possible to revive that in carnatic music copying what is done in Western music? After Yazh, kinnaram , we have lost 1 more thing :(

[viggop]

Idiappam Sir,
Also, if possible, please try to post the urai of your quotes from Silapadhikaram.I want to learn that too. Sorry for being sooooo selfish :lol: :D :wink:

[Idiappam]

Idiappam Sir,
Is B to B(mercempalai) permanently lost to us now in carnatic music? Is it possible to revive that in carnatic music copying what is done in Western music?

Mercempalai - is not a common scale in the West either! It lacked the fifth G - (panchamam). Panchamam is replaced by the prathi madyamam F#. - ie. it has two madyamams.

Carnatics have, since Venkatamakhi's melakartha system have dumped all the ragas that had two Ma's - F and F#. That's is flaw in that mela system. A lot of Tamil melodies have gone extinct due to that. Fortunately, some are retained in Hindustani Music - they rejected the Venkatamakhi's mela system!

I think Hindustani Ragas, born of Mercempalai, like Hamir, Byak, Lalat (or Lalath) etc have two Ma's! Can someone confirm this - Perhaps Mr Lakshman - would you come here a while please!

Meanwhile, I will work on the Silapathigaram lines quoted.

[viggop]

I recently read in some carnatic forum about the prescence of two Ma's(both the madyamams) where there was a discussion about some technical term.I do not remember it now.
Maybe,skkrisji and Lakshmanji can help.

Thanks for accpeting my request for the urai of silapadhikaram quotes

[Badri]

I think Hindustani Ragas, born of Mercempalai, like Hamir, Byak, Lalat (or Lalath) etc have two Ma's! Can someone confirm this - Perhaps Mr Lakshman - would you come here a while please!

Some Hindustani raags do have both the Madhyamas

For instance, Lalit has the aarohan and avarohan as follows:


'N r G m M m G M d S'


r' N d M d M m G r S

Again Hamir which is comparable to Hamir Kalyani has

S G m P N S'


S' N D P G M P G m R S

I am not sure but maybe even Saranga has a prathi madhyam in its avarohanam.

Note: I have used the notation 'Swara to mean the lower octave and Swara' to indicate the higher octave

[Idiappam]

The Seven Scales in Music - Elango Adigal.
--- Explanatory notes

[tscii:579da2c88b]®÷²ú ¦¾¡Îò¾ ¦ºõÓ¨Èì §¸ûŢ¢ý 70
with a perfect scale with a set of fourteen notes
(spanning two octaves)

µ÷²ú À¡¨Ä ¿¢Úò¾ø §ÅñÊ
wanting to effect (and maintain) a set of seven scales

Åý¨Á¢ü ¸¢¼ó¾ ¾¡Ã À¡¸Óõ
the Tharam (B. Ni) being the higher note (vanmai)

¦Áý¨Á¢ü ¸¢¼ó¾ ÌÃÄ¢ý À¡¸Óõ
and Kural (C, Sa) being the lower note (menmai) ---CDEFGAB

¦Áö츢¨Ç ¿ÃõÀ¢ü ¨¸ì¸¢¨Ç ¦¸¡ûÇì
kaikilai (E, Ga) took the (third) string (meikilai narambu) - the lower fifth from B

¨¸ì¸¢¨Ç ´Æ¢ò¾ À¡¸Óõ ¦À¡üÒ¨¼ò 75
¾Çáò ¾¡Ãõ Å¢ÇâìÌ ®òÐì
besides Kaikilai(E), from the ever-beutiful Tharam(B)
spaced at one interval lower (pakam), is the Vilari(A, Da)

¸¢¨ÇÅÆ¢ô Àð¼Éû, ¬í§¸ ¸¢¨ÇÔõ
¾ý¸¢¨Ç «Æ¢×¸ñÎ «ÅûÅ¢ü §ºÃ
Then re-tuning that to its fifth (kilai)

²¨É Á¸Ç¢Õõ ¸¢¨ÇÅÆ¢î §ºÃ
the rest of the maidens (notes) re-tuned to their fifths

§ÁÄÐ ¯¨Æ¢Ǣ ¸£ÆÐ ¨¸ì¸¢¨Ç 80
from the top strings being Ulai (Ma) and Ili (Pa) to the lowest Kailikai (Ga)
---- two (or three) octaves M P D N / S R G M P D N / S R G -
the forteen notes thus distrubuted
---- (this is known as the 'Greater Perfect System' in Greek music)

ÅõÒ¯Ú ÁÃÀ¢ý ¦ºõÀ¡¨Ä ¬ÂÐ
according to established usage (vamburu marabu)
the Cempalai, became the mother scale (Ayathu - Ay = mother)

þÚ¾¢ ¬¾¢ ¬¸ ¬íÌ«¨Å
The last note taken as the first, respectively

¦ÀÚÓ¨È Åó¾ ¦ÀüȢ¢ý ¿£í¸¡Ð
without losing their natural (petriyin) quality

ÀÎÁ¨Ä ¦ºùÅÆ¢ À¸÷«Õõ À¡¨Ä±Éì
The Padumalai, Sevvali, and Arumpalai scales

ÌÃøÌÃø ¬¸ò ¾ü¸¢Æ¨Á ¾¢Ã¢ó¾À¢ý 85
with (successive notes) becoming Kural (starting notes),
thus shifting (thirinthapin - thirupu = alter, shift), in relation to the first (thaRkilamai)
kilamai - shift in relation to the whole (first)

Óýɾý Ũ¸§Â ӨȨÁ¢ý ¾¢Ã¢óЬíÌ
In a similar manner, stated before, the shifts -

þÇ¢Ó¾ Ä¡¸¢Â ²÷ÀÎ ¸¢Æ¨ÁÔõ
from Ili (Pa) onwards, efecting a shift to kural (Sa)

§¸¡Ê Å¢Çâ §Áü¦ºõ À¡¨Ä±É
kOdi, Vilari, Mecempalai, respectively

¿£Êì ¸¢¼ó¾ §¸ûÅ¢ì ¸¢¼ì¨¸Â¢ý
with extensive notes (kelvi) flowing continuously (kidakkai)

þ¨½¿ÃõÒ ¯¨¼ÂÉ «¨½×Èì ¦¸¡ñάíÌ 90
Selecting the iNai narambu (iNai - union, harmony) strings to adjoin (aNaivura) in sequence

¡ú§Áü À¡¨Ä þ¼Ó¨È ¦ÁÄ¢Âì
These scales on the Yazh lowers (meliya) left

ÌÆø§Áü §¸¡Ê ÅÄÓ¨È ÅÄ¢Â
From kOdi, on the Kuzhal, the scales increases (valiya) right

ÅÄ¢×õ ¦ÁÄ¢×õ ºÁÛõ ±øÄ¡õ
These octaves higher (valivu), lower (melivu), middle (saman)

¦À¡Ä¢Âì §¸¡ò¾ ÒĨÁ §Â¡Û¼ý,
in their splendour (poliya) without errors, the expert (musician)..........
---- Elango refers to mAthavi's teacher here.[/tscii:579da2c88b]

Hope that is clear! Feel free to comment and correct!

Sabapathy

[Sudhaama]

... SPLENDID.... My Dear Mr. Sabapathy... What a RICH-MESSAGE !!

Please go ahead.

[Lakshman]

idiappam:
What type of font is needed to look at the tamil text you have posted?

[Idiappam]

idiappam:
What type of font is needed to look at the tamil text you have posted?

Nice to see you here Mr. Lakshman Sir!

TSCII fonts! I use them, yes!

Sudhaama said:

... SPLENDID.... My Dear Mr. Sabapathy... What a RICH-MESSAGE !!

Please go ahead.

Thank you! I think I have to post a list of Tamil words on Music Terminology soon! Before that, a little on the 'cycle of fifths'.

[viggop]

[tscii:11270ece21]Idiappam Sir,

±ñ½¢Â á§Ä¡÷ þÂøÀ¢É¢ý ÅÆ¡«Ð

Does "noolor" mean experts? One who are well versed in books(nool)?
This is another indication that books were existent during elango's time.Probably in olai chuvadu format.

A question on the history of carnatic music development?

How did Venkatamakhi enforce that his melakartha scheme takes precedence over other existing schmes.Those days there were no technology to spread something newly discovered/created far and wide quickly. And why did Tamils adopt this scheme knowing fully well that it is flawed(not allowing two Ma's)? Was it forced upon by some kings ? Those days ,kings were the only source of sustenance to musicians and if they want to avoid poverty,they better follow the king's orders.Any ideas on this?

[/tscii:11270ece21]

[Idiappam]

[tscii:d014310a89]±ñ½¢Â á§Ä¡÷ þÂøÀ¢É¢ý ÅÆ¡«Ð [/tscii:d014310a89]


Does "noolor" mean experts? One who are well versed in books(nool)?
This is another indication that books were existent during elango's time.Probably in olai chuvadu format.
Yes!

Enniya = well researched
noolor = scholars /authors
iyalbinin valaa athu = not departing from the nature of (that grammer of music)

[Idiappam]

Ok, while writing the story of the Melakarta, lets listen to this -

Radha Samedha - Raag Mishra Yaman - A Hindustani Raaga.
Kunnakudi Vaithyanathan on the Violin at:

http://www.musicindiaonline.com/l/3/s/album.18/artist.175/

Can someone tell me the Arohana/Avarohana of this Raaga, and in which Mela can we possibly fit it into. Thanks!

[viggop]

I have heard this song beautifully rendered by MLV for a Tamil film.Was it really composed by GNB?
This raga looks so similar to Charukesi in carnatic for me.It looked like kunnakudi was playing "Krishna Govinda murare" :D

Awaiting the history of how venkatamakhi's melakarta scheme became accepted by Tamil musicians

[Idiappam]

Awaiting the history of how venkatamakhi's melakarta scheme became accepted by Tamil musicians

Music is an art - not science, nor arithmetics. Venkatamakhi (17th Century CE(AD) just tried to 'systematise' what there was using arithmetics. First, he just grouped them into two - based on the 'Ma' (F or F#)they had. The 12 noted system was in place for thousands of years! Making 22 sruties(tones in a scale) out of this 12 notes - there can be just 72 Melas - not any more. Simple arithmetics.

Another thing Venkatamakhi did, is, he named and renamed the Melas. They say, by using his naming method you can 'detect' the notes that are in place for a specific mela - no big deal! A plain serial number would have been sufficient and easier to handle, instead of the long bewildering 'Sanskrit sounding' names of the Melas - Dheerasankaraabharanam, Simhendramadhyamam, Shadividhamaargini, Naasikaabhooshini, Shadividhamaargini, Maayaamaalavagowla, Vakulaabharanam, Gaangeyabhooshani.

I wonder, if these names really have some meanings in any language??

Then they were made into smaller groups -- The Chakras, causing more choas. The system was intended to see some order out the 'choas' of 'so many raagas'

The Character of the Scales were totally ignored by Venkatamakhi. Of the 72 mela scales 32 were diatonic (having only 2 semitones - seperated - not successive), The rest, 40 scales are chromatic (having 2 or more semitones consequtively.)

The Tamils had a better system of groups
PerumpAlai - Diatonic Scales
CirupAlai - Chromatic Scales

The Pentatonic, Hexatonic and Octotonic scales had no place in the Venkatamakhi's schemes - they are all lumped together and called janya raagas - having nothing special about them! Venkatamakhi had all the Janaka Raagas (parent raagas) in his coup. The rest are chickens!

What a brain!

Saranga Deva, the Musicologist of Ratnagara Fame - did more work! At least, we know that he was fiddling with two Veenas of 22 strings each, trying to get to the bottom, understanding South Indian Music.

More, on the Melakarta and Ratnagara, soon! Going for tea now!

[viggop]

Thanks Idiappam Sir!

But,how come Tamils accepted this scheme when they had a better scheme( as you say).They would know that this scheme would make some pans go away(which had 2 Ma's in them).

Was it forced by some king that all musicans should follow venkatamakhi from some date? how come it spread to all musicans in all the states of AP,TN,Karnataka and Kerala? Musicians should have been able to reject it easily knowing its flaws which you have detailed.

My guess is that it was some fear which made them accept venkatamakhi even though they knew the flaws of his system.

[viggop]

"Krishna mukunda murare" is in raga Maand

Also,I heard that Prof.Sambandamoorthy was totally against this melekarta scheme and he was supported by Maha Vaidyanatha Iyer and semmangudi srinivasa iyer.but,the conservatives prevailed at the Music Academy.

[Idiappam]

Thanks Idiappam Sir!

But,how come Tamils accepted this scheme when they had a better scheme( as you say).They would know that this scheme would make some pans go away(which had 2 Ma's in them).

Was it forced by some king that all musicans should follow venkatamakhi from some date? how come it spread to all musicans in all the states of AP,TN,Karnataka and Kerala? Musicians should have been able to reject it easily knowing its flaws which you have detailed.

My guess is that it was some fear which made them accept venkatamakhi even though they knew the flaws of his system.

Dear Viggop, you would have realised that I have avoided answering this question, when you raised that earlier. My answer may send me to the gallows (the Kings are fierce). But never mind, since you insist, I will take the risk!

The Melakarta Scheme is just that, a SCHEME! To suppress something great like Tamil Isai, you need such schemes! They were put to use effectively by later Schemers too - bewildering the laymen. I hope that is clear! :wink:

Now lets run......!

[Idiappam]

"Krishna mukunda murare" is in raga Maand


There is a paN named 'Kolli' in Tamil! Appar's first Thevaram 'kootrayinavaaru vilakkakileer' is sung to that paN. The present name of that Kolli pan is 'navroj'.

Krishna mukunda, if it does not fit Maand, try Navroj then!

Kolli paN is used for lullabys too, along with the pans Senthuruthi (Madyamaavathi), and Megaraagakurinji (Neelambari).

[Lakshman]

Viggop:

<Also,I heard that Prof.Sambandamoorthy was totally against this melekarta scheme and he was supported by Maha Vaidyanatha Iyer...>

Are you sure it was Maha Vadyanatha Iyer? He died in 1893 and P.Sambamurti wasn't even bornthen!

[sasibaloo]

In my vague memory, a lawyer turned musicologist and close associate of prof sambhamoorthy ,by name vasudeva shastrigal who was doing research work on palm leaves at sarasawathi mahal was raising controversies regarding this subject in early fifties in kalki magazine.

[viggop]

Lakshmanji
It is not Prof.Sambamurthi.I rememeber reading the name as TS.Sambandhmoorthy

Idiappam Sir
I find your answer cryptic and do not fully understand it but if you want to avoid talking about something,then there must be a good reason.

Let us not post anything which will digress from the topic of the thread.Let us continue about Thamizh isai only. :D

[rajraj]

Idiappam,
In his comment (anindhurai) on the book, thennaga isai iyal, by Chelladurai, Avvai Natarajan says ' annilaiyil 11991 paN vagaigaLai annaaLil thamizhar kaNdanar'. Earlier in that paragraph he mentions adiyaarkku nallaar. I suspect you can find it in adiyaarkku nallaar urai. If you are very particular I can call Natarajan and find out where in Silappadhikaaram we can find it. The problem is that he is difficult to get at home.
I will look for other books on music to determine the source. The book by Chelladhurai is good introduction to South Indian Music.

[Idiappam]

Abraham Padithar, in is Karunaamirutha Saagaram - page 620' quotes this verse - from Silapathigaram Arangetra kaathai, he says. But it is probably from Adiyarkku Nallar urai.

[tscii:635220f4bf]¯Â¢Õ¢÷ ¦ÁöÂÇ ×¨Ãò¾¨Åô À¡Ä¢Û
Ó¼ÈÁ¢ Æ¢ÂÄ¢¨º §Âؼý ÀÌòÐ
ã§Åú ¦Àö¾ó ... ... ...
¦¾¡ñÎ Á£ñ¼ ÀýÉ£ á¢Ãí
¦¸¡ñ¼É âÂüÈø ¦¸¡¨ÇÅø§Ä¡÷ ¸¼§É.[/tscii:635220f4bf]

The 11991 pans is also mentioned in the recent urai of Puliyoor Kesigan.

[viggop]

From Kamba Ramayanam(dated 8th century AD)

முழவினில் வீணையில், முரல் நல் யாழினில்
தழுவிய குழலினில், சங்கில் தாரையில்
எழு குரல் இன்றியே, என்றும் இல்லது ஓர்
அழு குரல் பிறந்தது, அவ் இலங்கைக்கு அன்றுஅரோ

veenai,yazh,kuzhal(flute),sangu(conch) and the seven notes are mentioned by Kambar here

[virarajendra]

Dear Readers,

There was a reference to Carnatic Music in an issue of the 'Indian Perspectives' Magazine, in the article titled "From boiled beans to Bangalore" written by Raj Vir Mittal, which is as follows:

---------------------

".....The traditions of the Indian Classical Karnatak (Carnatic) Music can be traced back to Hampi - the centre of activity of the Vijayanagar empire (1336-1646 A.D.) which had reached its pinnacle during the rule of Krishnadevaraya who built temples
in fine and elaborate Hindu style of Architecture....."

----------------------

This Carnatic Music spread throught the empire of Vijayanagara, and also in Tamil Nadu - which came under the suzerainty of this empire and received the impact of this music tradition.

The Tamil Nadu was left to be ruled by the Nayakkar kings appointed by the Vijayanagara Emperors - as their subordinates. The Nayakar kings were essentialy Telungu speaking, a language which received much recognition in its use in administration and in the day to day life of the people of Tamil Nadu under these kings.

This situation created the undermining of the traditional Tamil Music in Tamil Nadu, and the dominance of Carnatic Music and the development of the Keerthanas in Telungu by the Musicians of that period and thereafter - including the Sangeetha Mummoorthis of Tamil Nadu. This situation still prevails in Tamil Nadu.

Music whether it be in Tamil, Telungu, Kannada, or Malayalam it <u>should be appreciated by every one.</u>

But if the Music Recital is to be of Telungu Keerthanas & Songs, then the Music Festival should be correctely called as Telungu Music Festival. If it is to be with Kannada Keerthanas & Songs then it should be correctly referred to as Karnatic(Carnatic) Music Festival. If it is to be with Tamil Keerthanas & Songs it should be correctly referred to as the Tamil Music Festival.

But it is very incorrect to say that it is a "Tamil Music Festival", and the programmes to be referred to as "Karnatic(Carnatic) Music" by leading Singers, and finally on the stage to sing "Telungu Keerthanas".

It is high time the Musicians of Tamil Nadu revived the Tamil Music which received its fatal blow during the Vijayanagara Empire, and bring it back to its prestine glory as spearheaded by Sir Annamalai Chettiar with his "Thamil Isai Iyyakkam".

I trust the Musicians of Tamil Nadu will collectively bring back the Tamil Music on to its pedestal - in Tamil Nadu and among the Tamils all over the World.

[F.S.Gandhi vandayar]

Dear Mr.Idiappam :!:

Excellent work in this thread :!: Your notations are unparallel indeed! I read in "MANORAMA YEAR BOOK 2001" the significance of 'tamil Isai' which was the base for Indian & West Asian music.

In the same book I noticed Tamil 'Sathirattam' turned present 'Bharathanattiyam'.

Panthanallur style Sathirattam is famous one.

Thiru. Sudhaama can open a thread on Bharathanatitiyam also.

Tamil isai does not mean not only singing in tamil :!: It has other proportions that have been clearly put forth by Idiappam. There are tamil names to specify all these present terminology of Carnatic/Hindustani music.

The intricasies of tamil music has been clearly understood by Maestro Ilayaraja and just because of that, it has been easier for him to go on with symphony in Thiruvasakam :!:

Everybody expects glorious past to be revived. Tamilian arts should not die.

f.s.gandhi

[Sudhaama]

// .... I noticed Tamil 'Sathirattam' turned present 'Bharathanattiyam'.

Panthanallur style Sathirattam is famous one.

Thiru. Sudhaama can open a thread on Bharathanatitiyam also. ...

...Everybody expects glorious past to be revived. Tamilian arts should not die.

f.s.gandhi

Dear Mr F.S. Gandhi,

Duly HONOURING your Wish... I have started now a New Thread on Bharatha- Naattiyam ...

http://forumhub.mayyam.com/hub/viewtopic.php?t=5118

Interested Hubbers are welcome to enrich that Thread also.

Mikka Anbudan,
Sudhaama

[viggop]

Thiru Virarajendra
Please let us not divide carnatic music into Telegu Music festival, Tamil music festival etc. Let us call it carnatic music.
Artists can sing in any language they want and i'll enjoy all well rendered songs.

As you have mentioned, it is still Tamilians who are ruling the roost in carnatic music. Chennai is the Mecca of carnatic music.In chennai, every december(dec 15-jan 15), there is a music season held and a Sangeetha Kalanidhi is chosen.I have been to these concerts and have enjoyed them a lot.

Let us enjoy the divine carnatic music and trust Lord Shiva to protect it.
:)

[F.S.Gandhi vandayar]

Thank you Thiru Sudhaama :!:

I may come up with some historical aspects in the 'Bharathanatyam" thread after sometime.

Ofcourse music does not need any language whenever instruments only played. Maestro Ilayaraja's 'Nothing but wind' & 'How to name it' , Hentri Bhithoven's 'waves' & American Lionel Richie's ' Gambling' expressed the atmosphere & feelings to enjoy within it.

But whenever words are filled up language plays important role. At least in TamilNadu, tamil songs should be played. Otherwise. As Director K.Balachandar put it in his film "Sinthu Bairavi",Thalai Aattum Puriyatha Koottam" only will be there in Tamil Nadu!

As Mr.Idiappam told earlier in this thread during 19th century(still continues) tamil was considered as 'Neesa Basha'-Theetu among "Sabhas".

Some two years back I happened to hear Dr.Pushpavanam Kuppusami's concert in tamil Isai with New "Keerthanaas". It was really wonderful! Will present sabhas call him for concert? I think he is considered as a person of folk songs(Naatturap pura Paadal) only :!:

f.s.gandhi

[viggop]

Dear FSG
All languages are sung in today's concerts.Just go to this years december season in chennai.u might catch hold of marathi abhangs and some bengali songs too other than the usual Tamil, tellugu,sanskrit,kannada,malayalam and hindi(usually bhajans)
Let us Enjoy the divine carnatic music.
:-)

[Indrajith]

FYI , Pushpavanam Kuppusami is graduated in carnatic music.

I wonder what people here really mean by tamiz isai. singing songs in Tamil with the same old ragas?? Is tamil lyrics is what you guys mean? or.... I am not able to understand... Pls Explain..!!

[Sudhaama]

FYI , Pushpavanam Kuppusami is graduated in carnatic music.

I wonder what people here really mean by tamiz isai. singing songs in Tamil with the same old ragas?? Is tamil lyrics is what you guys mean? or.... I am not able to understand... Pls Explain..!!

By Two aspects we have to look on this Topic...

One ... by Sahithya... so called Lyrics ... in Tamil.

Second... by the Ancient Tamilian-Music-Culture... UNIQUE AND INDEPENDANT on its own... as Thamizh- Isai- Kalai

... on which Mr. Idiappam has already made a Beautiful and Indepth Analytical postings here.

Tamilian-Musical Art had its own Tamil-terms... like PANH for Raga ... and each Raga as per Tamil is different from what we name commonly in Karnatic music.....

Tamil-Isai-Sangam at Chennai has already made a Research as...PANH- AARAAYCHI (Raga Research)... and put forth their Findings...

.. which are quite THOUGHT-PROVOKING as well as richly informative with a message that Tamil-Music-Culture has SOMETHING MORE TO SAY...

... On Karnatic Music... even though basically both are same.

.. unlike any other Sub-Culture of Indian Heritage... as one Common Group of South-indian Music named KARNATIC-MUSIC ... comprising of Telugu, Kerala, Karnataka regions

... alongside parallelly on North-Indian Music, named as Hindustani Music of Bengal, Maharashtra, Hindi belts etc.

None of them has a separate Sub-Culture as Telugu-Sangeetha- Kala, or Kannada-Sangeetha- Kala or Hindi-Sangeetha- Kala...

... PARALLEL TO TAMIL-ISAI- KALAI.....a Sub-division of Karnatic Music.

So this Thread-Topic.... pertains more to this RICH AND APPLIED KNOWLEDGE ...

...of the Second aspect of TAMIL- MUSIC CULTURE of Ancient days...

... still relevant and lively in the Contemporary Age too.... a pride of immortal TAMIL- CULTURE.

[Idiappam]

Putting that simply...

"Karnatic" music is a branch (recent offshoot) of Tamil Isai.

The reason for saying that karnatic music is different - well, The 'patterns of performing' is rigid with its rules. The terminology is translated from Tamil to non-Tamil.

And there you are, Karnatic Music appears something on its own... Not so.

[Idiappam]

Thiru Virarajendra
Please let us not divide carnatic music into Telegu Music festival, Tamil music festival etc. Let us call it carnatic music.
Artists can sing in any language they want and i'll enjoy all well rendered songs. :)

Yeah, don't worry! The Tamils always had a large stage, that all can share. And sometimes get pushed off it.

Vazhga Tamil. Yet it remains.

I wish I had more time to contribute to this thread with further quotes from Silapathigaram on Tamil musicology and Tamil musical terminlogy - what it used to be - for the non-Tamil terms used now.

[viggop]

Idiappam Sir
Neither of us need to worry about future of carnatic music.As I said, Tamils are still ruling the roost there.And also, we can trust Lord Shiva to protect it :-)

[viggop]

Enjoy this well written article on Chowdiah

http://classical-music-review.blogspot.com/2005/11/blog-post.html

Vazga carnataka sangeetham!

[F.S.Gandhi vandayar]

[tscii:08d502a039]Source : http://www.tamilar.org/tamil-music.asp


The music of the pre-Christian era, namely, the Sangam period is called Tamil music. This period ranges approximately between 300 BC and 3 AD.

Great musical works like Tolkappiam, Ettutogai, Patthupattu, etc provide a lot of information on ancient Tamil music, which is believed by some, as the mother of Carnatic music. Through various books and ancient Tamil treatises we come to know of the existence of different types of music, musical instruments, musical forms, Panns (the equivalent of Ragas) and so on.

The 7 basic notes known by Sanskrit names today were known by pure Tamil names such as, Kural, Tuttam, Kaikilai, Uzhai, Ili, Vilari and Taram. There are even terms for the notes in different octaves. For example, Kurai Tuttam and Nirai Tuttam refer to the Rishabha in the lower and upper octaves respectively.

The other interesting feature is that there lived another set of three composers called the Tamil Moovar (Trinity), who lived about five decades before the Tiruvarur Trinity (Tyagaraja, Muthuswami Dikshitar and Syama Sastri). They were Muthutandavar, Arunachala Kavi and Marimutha Pillai. In fact, the earliest Trinity were the peerless Tevaram Trinity - Appar, Sundarar and Gnanasambandar - who were well known for their language and devotion.

The ancient Tamil treatises like Tolkappiam and Silappadikaram mention 'Pannati', the equivalent of raga alapana. Instruments like Kuzhal (Flute), Yazh (Vina / Harp) and Muzhavu (percussion) seem to have been the accompaniments for both music and dance.

It is very interesting to note that Sanskrit authors like Sarangadeva and Matanga have made profuse use of Tevaram Panns. It is said that the name “Raga” was given to Panns by Sanskrit authors. Raga was however, a well-known term in the Pann period, e.g. Takka ragam, Natta ragam, Pazhantakka ragam, Megha ragam etc. Ragas are not very different from Panns. Though the Panns find great elaboration in Silappadikaram long before the Tevaram songs, it was Gnanasambandar who gave these Panns a new life through his songs and poetry. In fact, Muthutandavar has even composed songs in the traditional Pallavi-Anupallavi-Charanam format, thus laying the foundation for the present day kritis.

Later composers like Gopalakrishna Bharati, Papanasam Sivan, Subramanya Bharati, Periasami Tooran and others have also contributed towards the propagation of Carnatic music with Tamil as the medium of language.

Tamil Music can be studied under different topics like (a) Ancient Musical Treatises and Historical References (b) Musical Instruments (c) Musical Forms (d) Melodic and Rhythmic Forms.

ANCIENT MUSIC TREATISES AND HISTORICAL REFERENCES

Tamil music is considered one of the most ancient music systems in the world. This is a very special system of music, characteristic and specific to the Tamil people. The historical references to the structure of music, musical instruments, method of singing, the circumstances under which the music developed, etc have been cited in very ancient texts that date back to as early as the 1st and 2nd century AD.

TOLKAPPIAM

This text, written by Tolkappiar, gives references to the music that prevailed about 2000 years ago, besides dealing with the life of the early Tamilians, their customs, social and political conditions and the physical and geographical particulars.

From this work, one understands that the country was divided into four main regions - Kurinji (hills), Marudam (arable lands), Mullai (pastoral regions) and Neithal (coastal belts). Later Palai (wastelands) was also added. Each region had its own food, occupation, Gods, music and so on. As mentioned earlier, each region also had a mode or Pann, melodic instrument or Yazh and percussion instrument or Parai. The following is a list of the different regions and their specific Pann-s, Yazh-s and Parai-s.



REGION PANN YAZH PARAI
Kurinji Kurinji Kurinji Tondaga
Mullai Sadari Mullai Erukot
Marudam Maruda Maruda Nellaikinai / Munamuzhavu
Neithal Sevvazhi Vilari Minkot, Navayapambai



It appears that these five Panns were in use from the earliest times and must have originated from the simple folk tunes and tribal songs of the ancient Tamils. The system of naming the musical modes after the land seems to have a parallel in the Greek music system too, where the 5 ancient modes were called Dorian, Lydian, Phrygian, Aeolian and Ionian, after the lands in which they originated.

Tolkappiam refers to the mode of production of sound as “Ahattezhu Vali Isai”. This is the primordial sound that originates from 'mooladhara' and sounds musical. (The great composer Tyagaraja has also echoed this thought in many of his compositions, with special reference to the Charanam of the kriti, ‘Mokshamu Galada’ in raga Saramati).

In the section on alphabets, the author talks of vowels and consonants that exceed the limit of sound. Here, he probably refers to the inter-relationship between language and music.

Tolkappiar mentions a musical form called 'Pattu Vannam'. He has given about 20 different types of Vannam-s, probably classified on the basis of the letters of the alphabet in each of those. He has also given different types of songs like Asiriapattu, Neduven pattu, Adivarai, Seer, Ahaval Osai, Vellosai, etc. which are classified on the basis of the musical quality, metrical structure etc. He also refers to a special type of musical song called 'Tazhisai'.

ETTUTOGAI

As the name suggests, this is a collection of eight different works, as explained below:

NATRINAI:This consists of 4000 verses of Ahaval type. There are many references to musical instruments like Yazh, Muzhavu (percussion), etc and these are equated to the hum of bees, sound of waterfalls etc. There is mention of Ambal Pann, which could be essayed very beautifully, on the flute. There is also a reference to the Muzhavu being used during festival times. Various other drums also have been mentioned which were used in the battlefield, during tight-rope walking, to drive away sparrows from the field and so on.
P
URANANOORU: This is a set of 400 ballad songs mainly sung by court minstrels and wandering bards in praise and honour of the kings of South. The instruments mentioned here are the Seeriyazh with shining strings and Manamuzha, a percussion instrument that was used to accompany female singers. There are references to Panns Sevvazhi, Padumalai and Vilari. Mention of Orchestral music, the 3 octaves and seven notes are also found.

AINKURUNOORU: Five hundred Ahaval type verses are found here, apart from references to Mullai region and the Nalyazh. The other instruments mentioned here are the Tattai, Tannumai (both percussion) and the Thombu and flute (both wind instruments). It is said that Ambal Pann was played on the flute in the evenings. There is also mention of a Pann Panjuram, which was used to portray the emotion of fear. Panjuram, in the present day context, happens to be Sankarabharanam.

KALITOGAI: This work of Ettutogai is a collection of love songs. Music served various purposes in this Mullai region. References have been made to the yazh, which was used to tame wild animals which in turn, could attract cattle, control a mad elephant and so on. There is a reference to a seven-stringed yazh too. The 2 types of flutes mentioned here are the Ambal and Konrai. The music of the flute, which was compared to the dragonfly, was also used as a drone instrument, which prevented the yazh from deviating from its pitch. Mention is made of 4 kinds of Murasu, namely, Ponmurasu, Viramurasu, Koraimurasu and Nayamurasu (all drums). These have been used in the battlefields and also to pass on information. Another interesting reference to Kuravai Koottu (a type of folk art) has been made, wherein the accompaniment was Tannumai, which is equivalent to the present day mridangam. Panns Nottiram and Sevvazhi have been mentioned as creating the Soka (pathos) rasa (emotion). Besides, there is a mention of Unjal pattu or swing-song. There is also a reference to the people in the Neithal region making use of the whole bone to make yazh with the tree fibres as strings.

AHANANURU: This consists of 400 songs apart from many references to music. The most interesting one is the likening of Panns with rasas and the cries of animals. It has been said that Sevvazhi Pann expresses grief. There is also a reference to an elephant that stood transfixed after listening to the strains of Kurinji Pann. Sevvazhi Pann was also performed on yazh while praying. Yazh seems to have been a very popular instrument. The wind instruments referred to are Konrai Kuzhal and Thombu. Muzhavu is mentioned as having been played with hands and sticks and the Kinai was used as an accompaniment for vocal music.

PARIPPADAL: Of all the works in Ettutogai, this is the one that abounds in references to music and music related aspects. This could also be called Paripattu. The songs are in praise of Vishnu, Muruga and river Vaigai. After every poem, the name of the poet, the music composer and the Pann are specified. The first 11 songs are set in Palaiyazh Pann, the next 5 in Nerthiram or Nottiram (Bhoopalam) and the next four in Gandharam. There are a number of poets who have contributed to Parippadal. There is a verse, which compares vocal music and instruments to Nature. It is also mentioned that the blending of the yazh with the 2, 5 or 7- holed flute sounds beautiful. Another interesting feature is the mention of yazh being played to the pitch of the flute.
Neival Pann was used to portray happiness and this was sung to the accompaniment of yazh. Palai Pann was used to depict the emotion of joy to the accompaniment of yazh, kuzhal and muzham. We see references to Seer and Pani as being synonymous to Tala. We also find references to the descriptions of dancers and musicians. Among the wind instruments, there are references to Thombu, which resembles the flute and to flute itself. It has been mentioned that the blending of flute and muzham sounded good and that the flute was played opening and closing the holes with fingers. Muzham was considered to be an auspicious instrument, which was played during festivals and marriages. It's mentioned that Lord Muruga was propitiated by girls to the accompaniment of Muzhavu. A particular verse suggests that a paste called 'Mann' was applied on the ‘eye’ of the Muzhavu. It almost resembled the Tannumai. These details prove that the Muzhavu had carved an important position for itself in the music for that period. There are also references, which indicate that the Murasu was played by beating with a stick and that the three instruments Maddari, Tatari and Tannumai were played to the beat of ‘seer’ which is a synonym for Tala. Mention is made of brass instruments also. There is a very interesting reference to modal shift of tonic found in Parippadal.

PADITRUPATTU: This work consists of 100 Ahaval type verses. This is divided in to 10 sections with 10 songs each and for each song, the rhythm and melody (Tookku and Vanmai) have been mentioned. Tookku is a synonym for Pani, which means Tala. There is a reference to Kuravai dance. It is also mentioned that the female musician, Virali, sang Palaiyazh pann to the accompaniment of yazh, which sounded very pleasing. Apart from the Periyazh, references are also made to Seeriyazh. 'Sangu' or conch was another instrument that was highly respected. 'Valampuri Sangu', a conch with an anti-clockwise twist was accorded even a higher place as this was scarce to procure. There is reference to Thombu, a wind instrument that was probably a larger version of the flute. There is a verse that suggests that one side of Tannumai, the percussion instrument, had a paste applied on it and that it was played with hands. This seems to suggest that Tannumai can be considered the equivalent of the present day Mridangam. Muzhavu was used in festivals while Murasu was used in battlefields. It seems each region had its own native tree. The king or chief who won the battle would make a Murasu out of the defeated King’s native tree and sound it, which would cause embarrassment to the defeated king. Lord Muruga was the special deity. There are many references to music in this work, which gives us an insight into the music of Kadai Sangam period (later Sangam period).

KURUNTHOGAI: In this, the Panar are mentioned extensively as being devoted to learning music and entertaining the people. These people were richly rewarded with presents. The chief of peasants, Yevvi, gave flowers of gold as a reward. Thus, where the chief died, the Panars sang with a lot of grief.
The instruments referred to here are Tannumai, Tondagam, Padalai, Murasu and Muzhavu of the percussion category. The flute and conch are the two wind instruments that are referred to. It is said that the music from the flute resembled the chirping of a bird called Vanga. This is the reason why flute got the name Vangiyam. The conch is also known by another name called 'Panilam'.

The instruments, Parai and Sangu are said to be played during marriage. The Tondaga Parai or Siruparai, belonging to the Kurinji land, was said to have been played by the people who guarded the city during nights, in order to drive away the beasts. The Pann Padumalai is said to belong to the Palai land and is portrayed as one sung for happy occasions. The Vilaripann, also called Irangarpann, is said to belong to the Neithal land and is supposed to portray a sad mood/emotion. The musical composition mentioned here are 'Vallai pattu' or 'Aval pattu' belonging to the folk-music, Kalarippa and Parani, belonging to martial music. The Vallai pattu is supposed to be sung by a young damsel in love, in praise of her lover while pounding. The martial music was sung by the Panar in the battlefield.

f.s.gandhi


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[DrMBala]

Tamil music is "Holy Music"

Tamil music is sometimes categorised into Devotional, Classical and Popular Folk music. Rythms of popular folk music express a vitality which stems from the closeness of its contact with the life of a people. Classical music deepens and refines these associations with life and its moving ragas and melodies have withstood the passage of time and remain almost timeless. Finally, the devotional music of the Tamil people, gives expression to the ecstasy that comes from transcending our fragmented and partial self and becoming one with that which is whole and therefore holy.

Please sent your personnel opinion on this topic to this discussion forum.

Dr.M.Bala Tharumaningam

[tvsankar]

dear all,
thamiz isai miga vuyarnthathu.vedhanayagampillai,gopalakrishna bharathiyar,
paapanaasamsivan,arunachalakavi,sirantha raagangalil periya padagargal paadiyullanar.kavadichindhu,nondichindhu,ponra paadalgal annaamalai reddiyaar ponror iyarriyavai.tharkaalaththilum vairamuththu ponror ezuthiya 'poovil vandu..' enra paadal ponravaiyum sollalaam.
bharathiyaar, bharathithasanaar ivargal paadalgalsollavallayo,kakkai siraginile nandha lala, thunbam nergaiyil.. ponra padalgal sollikkonde pogalam.
thangamani.

[rajasaranam]

why this topic has come to an abrupt end :( Idiappam Ayya thayavu seithu thodarungal :!:

[Sudhaama]

why this topic has come to an abrupt end :( Idiappam Ayya thayavu seithu thodarungal :!:

Why addressed to Idiappam...ONLY.?

Not only IDIAPPAM...but also other APPANS too can put their heads together...

...by bringing out their Thoughts and Knowledge... Mutual-exchange...

..to enjoy this Sweet Topic.
.

[Uthappam]

Hybernating?? I may try to wake him up...

[Sudhaama]

.


Video - RANJANI GAYATHRI Duet - Vocal CONCERT


- வழி மறைத்திருக்குது (கோபாலகிருஷ்ண பாரதி) - நாட்டக்குறிஞ்சி

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76aQwBJhmm8


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[raagadevan]

"The Silapadigaaram is not only a story of love and misunderstanding, but also a text with a wealth of detail about the music of its time. T.M. KRISHNA uncovers the intricate relationship between the Tamizh landscape and melody that it reflects".

http://www.thehindu.com/arts/magazine/article974391.ece?homepage=true

[harishkumar09]

Hi friends, can anybody give me a link to Bharathiyar's paadal "Pozhuthu Pularndhadhu" in MP3 format ?

[Lakshman]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sW5ZIcEFdPM

[R]

Hoping will get at least a response, posting this query.. Need lyrics for this song

thamizhin azhage by the composer Smt. Mathioli Saraswathi.

Thanks

[harishkumar09]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sW5ZIcEFdPM

Really great song ! Lyrics and the Music and also the Photos !