Glorious THYAGARAJA- KEERTHANAS !!!

[Sudhaama]

(1) SINGERS: Most of the Tamilian-MUSICIANS do not know Telugu..... Still they PREFER to learn and ENJOY singing MORE of Telugu Songs especially Thyagaraja Keerthanas... Why?

(2) RASIKAS: Most of the AUDIENCE in Tamilnadu also do not know Telugu... Still they prefer Telugu songs composed NOT ONLY by Thyagabrahmam... but also OTHER Vakgeyakaras TOO who composed in Telugu...like Shyama Sasthri, Mysore Vasudevachariar, Poochi Srinivasa Iyengar, and so on... preferably Thyagaraja Keerthanas .. although all of them are of alien Language Telugu.... Why?

(3) COMPOSERS : While Thyagarajar's Mother-tongue was Telugu and he composed most of his Keerthanas in his Mother-Tongue... even the Non-Telugus like Mysore Vasudevachar, of Kannada Mother-tongue,and Ramanathapuram Srinivasa Iyengar, of Tamil Mother-tongue too had composed only in Telugu ..Why?

(4) ORGANISERS: Similarly.. in all the Towns and Cities having abundant Sangeetha- Rasikas ... the ORGANISERS (despite most of them Non-Telugus not knowing Telugu language)... are happier to organise a Thyagaraja- Aradhana Festival more than any other Music-Festival. ..Why?

(5) POPULARITY : Even though several Music-Festivals are celebrated annually all over India... such as Bhahath-Khande Festival... Thansen Festival.. and the like.. for Hindusthani-Music... alongside the Narayana- Theertha- Festival, Dheekshitha-Festival, Shyama-sasthri Festival, Thrimurthi- Festival, Swathi-Thirunal Festival, Navarathri-Music- Festival ... the Annual celebration of the Thyagaraja-Aradhana-Festival at Thiruvaiyaaru only is the ....MOST POPULAR one .. involving even the International broadcast by Radio and TV programmes.... Why ?

[viggop]

Sudhama
Just because the press does not give coverage to other festivals does not mean that they are bad.Musicians like to sing in any language in praise of God.It'll take them closer to God.All musicians say that they can reach God through music(Nadopasana).So,the aim is to please God and everything is for HIM.
I do not know a bit of telugu but I read English translations of the song if I like them very much.

[Sudhaama]

"viggop"

// Just because the press does not give coverage to other festivals does not mean that they are.... "bad"....//

Did I mean... "BAD"...?

If you say .. that the Crane is of higher-Degree WHITE than Milk... Should I take it that the Colour of Milk is Black.?

Further I clarify here... I mean by POPULARITY.. Thyagaraja-Aradhana Festival is more Popular Nationally and Internationally too. I had raised a Question here... Why So?

If you want to differ with me to mean... that I am not correct to say so...

Welcome... please come forward... which other one is more popular?

And if you agree with me... then please put forth your Opinion in that angle.... on which I will participate along with all other friends here time to time.

//Musicians like to sing in any language in praise of God.It'll take them closer to God.All musicians say that they can reach God through music(Nadopasana).So,the aim is to please God and everything is for HIM//.

(1) One of the Objects of Keerthanas sung in the name pf God is for OBEISANCE towards God as one of the several means of Expression of Devotion and Prayer.... But it gives PLEASURE for all the other Hearers too... as an Art.... irrespective of Divinity inherent.

(2) There are also NON-DEVOTIONAL Musical-songs ... especially in Dramas and Cinemas... which too are enjoyed by the Rasikas as well as the Commonfolk..

So to say... Music has got Two strengths...

(1) Prayer by Devotional-Expression imbued with Soul- Pleasure.

(2) Enjoyment and Subtle Expression of all the Moods in Life.

[Vikram Sampath]

hi!

I cant understand why something like classical music needs to be seen through a linguistic prism? first and foremost carnatic music is NOT tamil music! it is perhaps true that today the world of carnatic music boasts of many musicians who happen to be Tamilians and chennai is quite a hub for this art form. But historically speaking most of the great composers have used Telugu in abundance for their compositions, be it Saint Thyagaraja and Shyama Shastri or Annamacharya, Bhadrachala Ramadasa or more recent composers like Mysore Vasudevacharya or Yoganarasimham. of course Dikshitar stuck to Sanskrit in his compositions while the Dasas(like purandara dasa, kanaka dasa, vijaya vittala dasa etc) used Kannada. hence all these concepts of "alien language" to carnatic musicians doesnot make any sense to me...(alien to whom? and why?)

[viggop]

Vikram Sampath
Most ancient Tamil classical texts have been tuned to carnatic music.Like the works for St.Gnana Sampandhar,Manikavasagar etc. I agree that language is no barrier to music and one should have an open mind in these things.

[Sudhaama]

"Vikram Sampath"

// I cant understand why something like classical music needs to be seen through a linguistic prism?//

Well-said... Will you please ELABORATE... as to Why it should Not be Viewed So?

//.. first and foremost carnatic music is NOT tamil music! //

No.. It is Not correct to say so....Ancient History proves... that MUSIC was part of the Advanced Tamilian-culture... predating other HUman- Cultures...

Even though named differently in Tamil, ... like PANH to mean Raga and PAANHAR for an Instrumentalist... the Carnatic-Music was the Ancestral property of the Ancient- Tamilians, which is being shared by others now all over the world... like Several -light-flames emanating from one Main Jothi...

That is the reason for any Music-concert anywhere in the World... we can find the majority of Audience Tamilians... because it has been continued since several centuries back... whereas others started only recently... and so Rasikas are comparatively lesser from the other parts of India..

Alwars Arulhi-cheyal (Divya-prabhandham) as well as Saivai- Thirumurhais of Nayanmars have been SUNG in Musical-tunes ... just in the presence of God to them.. Those Ragas have been recorded even in the olden Palm-leaves as well as Copper-plated and the like Documents.

// it is perhaps true that today the world of carnatic music boasts of many musicians who happen to be Tamilians and chennai is quite a hub for this art form...//

Because Tamilians were the the earliest Owners... several centuries prior to others... which they nurtured further... as detailed above.

...// But historically speaking most of the great composers have used Telugu in abundance for their compositions, be it Saint Thyagaraja and Shyama Shastri or... hence all these concepts of "alien language" to carnatic musicians doesnot make any sense to me...(alien to whom? and why?)//

That is the Question ... I will answer... after hearing from all of you.

[Vikram Sampath]

sudhaama, it pains me to see people fostering such parochial views EVEN in soemthign like classical music...anyway u, like anyone else is entitled to his/her own prejudices and beliefs...its after all a free and democratic country where in the name of history we could give anything and everything a go-by! :wink: being a tamilian myself, i do not dispute the greatness of the language in terms of its classsicism right from the time of the Sangam period, and that all south indian languages have been offshoots of it...but the region "Carnatic" is neither entirely in tamil nadu, nor is it present day Karnataka as some people wrongly think..it covers a vast area of southern india which spans all the 4 states(if u would remember the Carnatic wars that were fought here in the 18th century)...and carnatic music has emanated from this very region...so the culture is a composite one and to call something as the "ancestral property" of a particular clan smacks of nothing but regionalistic jingoism at its nadir! if u r carrying this debate just to score brownie points or ruffle feathers on this forum or worse for popularity, so be it...but dont paint things with a historical coat to buttress ur claims...good luck and God bless...

[Vikram Sampath]

u spoke about the Panh and other terminologies of Tamizh isai...very true..the roots of carnatic music may certainly be in this ancient and not-so-developed musical form of the ancient Tamils and it does find a refrence even in the silappadikaram. the tamizh isai spoke of 21(some say its also 24 or 27)panhs...and many of these have counterparts in carnatic music undoubtedly( like "nattarakam" for Panthuvarali or "indhaLam" for Nadanamakriya and so on)...but its highly presumptious to assume that this ancient form of music is what carnatic music is in its present day form..music like any art form evolves with time and with more people joining the bandwagaon...so from 24 or 27 panhs, we had the 72 melakarta raga scheme(which has NO similarity to the way panhs were structured, FYKI) and was mainly the work of musicologist Venkatamakhi who was both an erudite scholar of Sanskrit and telugu...the person u call as the Pitamaha of Carnatic music and who has laid out the structure for the manner in which carnatic lessons have to be taken--saralai varasai, janti varasai etc in mayamalawagowla is Saint Purandara Dasa who composed ONLY in Kannada and who worshipped Vitthala of Pandharpur in present-day maharashtra...none of the so-called Trinity of carnatic music composed in tamil, if u noticed!! so while the oirgins might be Tamilian no doubt, the development, enrichment and growth of Carnatic music to the form it is in today has been possible mainly a large section of non-tamil population and hence this exclusivist rights in my view is a faulty one...so kindly have a more egalitarian and broader outlook in life! :)

[Sudhaama]

"Vikram Sampath"

//... it pains me to see people fostering such parochial views EVEN in soemthign like classical music.//

Dear Vikram Sampath.. why should you feel PAINFUL or think as Hurt .... simply somebody differs with you in opinion or knowledge?..I don't understand...

Whatever I say... has a basis and justification... which I had hinted in brief to start with... on which I want to hear from you .. that is the reason, I addressed it to you...

I am open-minded enough to consider others opinions and Knowledge. And if I am Wrong at any stage... I will hesitate the least to retrace my thoughts and steps and will be happy to fall in line whatever is the Right one.. So please continue.... whatever you have to fortify your stand.

That is the object of this Thread... I initiated... with much zeal.

//...the region "Carnatic" is neither entirely in tamil nadu, nor is it present day Karnataka as some people wrongly think..it covers a vast area of southern india ...//

The name "Carnatic" here, does not relate to any Region... It has nothing to do with the present state so called Karnataka too.

The word "Carnatic- Music".... is the English form of "Karnataka- Sangeetham"... where the word KARNATAKA means ANCIENT..

The Karnataka-Sangeetham is the Most ancient one ... the Foremost amongst all the International Music- Spectrum.

Sapthaswaras of Karnataka-Sangeetham have emanated from Lord Siva,

//"Sa Ri Ga Ma Pa Dha, Ni., Vara Sapthaswara...//

...as described by Sri Thyagaraja .. in

..." Naadhathanum Anisam Sankaram Namaami" .. in Chiththaranjani...

And also... in his another Keerthana... "Raga-Sudhaarasa" in Andhoalika .

.... "Sadhaasiva mayamagu Naadha Ohmkara Swara ..." ...

... which means...Naadhoankaaram ... is another form of depiction of Lord Sivas existence through Sound.

If this Music has originated from the Lord Siva Himself... is it necessary to describe further as to how far Ancient it is. ?

Am I wrong to say so?

[Vikram Sampath]

:D ok..atleast i succeeded in getting u to say that Carnatic music emanated from Lord shiva!!! now by mathematical induction does it mean that Lord Shiva was also a Tamilian???...plzzz for heavens sake dont give "historical proofs" to make that claim :wink: Lord shiva etc are mythical characters my dear Sudhaama...its mythology and so letz leave it at just that! i would rather believe Bharata in his natyashastra where he says that the 7 swaras emanated from nature...each of these r soundz made by certain animals..like dhaivata or Dha is the neighing of the horse..somethign else comes from the elephant trumpet, the peacock's shrill cry etc...indian music's closeness and origins from nature is what makes nature-based concepts(like morning ragas, evenign ragas, seasonal ragas in hindustani music etc) possible...


and i dont know in which language "karnataka sangeeta" means "ancient music"...!!
:shock:

the point i make is simple...the original Indian music is undoubtedly very old...did i ever contest the claim that indian music is not ancient???? and what an irnoy, u quote a telugu kriti to justify ur claim that Indian music is ancient !!! :lol:

and as u rightly pointed out and as i did, a lot of elements were drawn from the ancient tamizh isai...but music like all art forms grows with time..and over the centuries, it metamorphosed into soemthign totally different, which we know today as Carnatic music...in the north turko persian elements interacted with the native music of Dhrupad (the music which baharata's Natyashastra and Saranga dev's sangeeta ratnakara speaks abt) to give rise to the Hindustani khayal music of today....so art form is a continuously growing thing...
this being the case, any particular community or clan, or linguistic combination claiming that th music is their "ancestral property" and all others are "like sparks from the main Jothi" is in my view a very untenable and self serving argument...

thus, i conclude by saying that ur initial idea of telugu being alien to carnatic music which triggered this debate is soemthing i dont agree to...because something is alien if it isnt a part of it...telugu, kannada, sanskrit, malayalam, even Marathi(in terms of abhangas) have contributed to carnatic music's growth as much or perhaps much more than tamil has and hence nothign is alien to the music...the fact that a lot of musicians or Rasikas r from tamil nadu doesnot make carnatic music an out and out tamilian music....its an "INdian classical music" form and letz leave it at that...like India, it too has a composite colour of different hues which we need to understand, appreciate and respect...else carnatic music will get confined to the state of tamil nadu only and to the select few Tam brahms who would undrestand and appreciate it...letz not have things come to that pass..


it was nice discussing things with u..i mean no malice...was just peeved by irrational arguments...good luck and god bless!

[viggop]

Vikaram Sampath
"Karnatakam" means "ancient" in Tamil.I think Sudhaama here is trying to prove the same point that music does not have any language barriers.He probably expected someone to argue here saying that it is only Tamil music etc.

I disagree with your statement that other languages enriched carnatic music more than Tamil.NO.Every language has enriched carnatic music ***equally***.Nothing is more equal than others and if this thought comes to our minds,it'll be bad for carnatic music.The aim of the trinity is bhakthi and bhakthi alone! They would be crying if they find that the language they used to reach God is a point of contention!

[Badri]

Agree with both Vikram Sampath and Viggop..especially about the point of the Trinity crying to think their natural utterances expressing their devotion were becoming points of contention for people with nothing better to do!

This kind of vain and futile hairsplitting is positevely valueless, to say nothing of how irritating, as Vikram said, such irrational arguments are.

In a time when music is being recognized as transcending all languages, in a world where an MS Subbulakshmi can sing to the UN Assembly and be applauded for it, or Robbie Williams give a concert in the East and be raved about, it is ridiculous to pay attention to such trivilaties.

In my opinion, if we keep focussing on such trivia, we shall end up losing sight of the more wonderful and divine aspects of music. If we wallow in the primeveal mud and slime of vain and pointless arugements, how are we to rise up and taste the sublime taste of melodies?

I do not wish to cause offense to anyone by this post. Just expressing my views on how absolutely useless pointless arugements are!

[rshankar]

Since many opinions have been expressed on this topic, and everyone has stated that there is no malice intended (!), here is my 2 cents worth:
To begin with, I have to give you my background which does color and bias my judgement. My parents speak Tamizh, and I understand Tamizh, Telugu, Kannada, Hindi and Sanskrit, and consider English my mother tongue. I work in medical research, where, because of a significant drop in funding, I have noticed that people now-a-days choose their interest governed by lack of competition or availability of funds in a particular area, and not the way I was trained: first develop an interest and then seek funding. I think something very similar may have operated with the composers. At the time of the Trinity, Tamizh literature was very highly developed and compositions in Tamizh literally had to float up the 'potramarai' kulam before they would be treated with any respect. I think (and please correct me with references, if I am wrong) that Telugu did not have this 'problem' at that time, and I 'suspect' that 2 of the trinity took the easy way out, and chose a language with little competition! MD compsed mainly in Sanskrit, but to set the record staright, SS has a few (disputed) Tamizh compositions credited to him, and MD has composed in 'manipravalam' with Telugu and Tamizh words. Purandaradasar did compose in mainly in Kannada, but he also has a few Sanskrit songs (lambOdara is in Sanskrit, and so is venkatAchala nilayam).
Finally, at least in the US, my observation has been that the majority members of carnatic music associations are Tamizh-speaking individuals. Given that this music, like all other art forms is a 'performing' art form, it needs the audience to thrive. Therefore, if the audience is mainly Tamizh-speaking, I think that it is not inappropriate to ask for songs in Tamizh. I think that we have enough compositions in Tamizh that will do justice to any concert - in fact, I have heard concerts exclusively in Tamizh (from the varnam to the mangalam), and their musicality was no different (neither less nor more) from the usual fare. So, while I do not think that any one language is better, or offers better musical scope, I think that the needs or preferences of the audience need to be kept in mind (once again, in this business as in any other, the consumer (audience) is always right!).

[Idiappam]

Ravi Shankar! You got them all down to earth! Great post!

[Idiappam]

Tamils have always insisted that - you got to know the meaning of the song for full appreciation!

Refer: Thirukkural - paN ennAm pAdaRkku iyaipinREl....
Thiruvasagam = solluga sollin poruLunarnthu ....

[viggop]

I agree with Idiappam.We have to learn the meaning of the song(whichever language it is sung).Most of the songs are full of Bhakthi ,philosophical meanings.
Even for Tamil songs , we have to understand its philosophical meanings and only then we can really enjoy it.
I try to get the meanings of my favourite Tamil,Telugu,Sanskrit,Kannada,Marathi,Bengali songs as I believe it takes me closer to God

[Vikram Sampath]

well, idiappam, ur right...not earth, im crawling in nether world... :wink: GREAT post Ravi shankar, indeed!! :D

[viggop]

Ravi Shankar
I agree most of the audience are Tamil speaking but the beauty is that most of the audience are broad minded too. :)

Similarily,most of the singers are Tamils and they sing songs in all languages with the same devotion with which they sing in Tamil.

Again,if you have seen interviews of carnatic artistes and bharathanatyam dancers,they say that "music is bhathi" and they are realising God through carnatic music(Nadopasana).That is the strength of the music.

When you are utterly devoted to carnatic music, any song rendered correctly will bring a lot of happiness in you and you feel that you are getting closer to God.

As Idiapam said,we who form the audience should strive to understand the meaning of the songs be it in any language.This will give us happiness,mental peace and unity with God.

[viggop]

Dear Ravi Shankar
I would disagree with you that trinity took to telugu because it is an easy way out and they lacked knowledge of Tamil that much.
The nayak kings in Thanjavur at that time were Telugu and they imposed telugu.

Tygaraja was a Telugu. So,he composed songs easily in his mother toungue.Dikshitar was a tamil but he composed most of his songs in Sanskrit.I do not know about the mother tongue of shyma sastry.Note that atleast Thygaraja and Dikshitar had direct experiences from God himself.Infact,it was due to grace of Lord Murugan at tiruchendur that Dikshitar could compose songs!
So, they had divinity with them and they could have easily composed songs in any language and it would be the best still. And they were not concerned about self glorification nor were they interested in proving their language skills.I think they were mainly into pure bhakthi.

Thyagaraja sung "Nidhi chala sukhada" refusing to accept money from the king because he wanted to praise only the Lord.Even if it means abject poverty.Dikshitar sung a song praising Goddess Lakshmi when his wife begged him to get money from the King because of their poverty.But he refused and it is said that Godess Lakshmi herself appeared in his wife's dream telling her that money is not the real wealth.How can you say that such people took the easy way out and did not compose in Tamil because they did not have mastery in it?
Their music is about bhakthi and only bhakthi and not language.Lord Rama granted an audience to Thaygaraja when he was in his deathbed.So,much is the power of selfless devotion to the Lord.

Bhakthi only riases you to the Lord and it never brings anyone down to earth.It is only arrogance and pride which will bring people falling down.

[Idiappam]

Viggop said:


As Idiapam said,we who form the audience should strive to understand the meaning of the songs be it in any language

Who said I said all those things you said I said?? I din said that, read again!

I said, singers should sing in a language understood by the listener - agreeing with Ravi Shanker!

[viggop]

Dear Idiappam
Please accept my apologies if I have misunderstood your post.

I believe that as a lover of carnatic music I should try to understand the meaning of all the devotional songs whatever be the language it is sung.
I hope all the carnatic musicians too to understand the meaning ,the bhakthi behind the songs they sing,be it in any language.It will help them to reach God and help me too

[Sudhaama]

Dear Friends,

I am surprised to note... that the trend of discussions have jumped towards the last chapter of thoughts on the matter...

... skipping off several... in-between factors... intermediary stages.. of the topic...

... rather the trend has reached to the point of... What and How it should be?

... which is the Ultimate Question... we must see LATER... as the LAST..

Your kind attention is invited towards my Questions raised hereabove on

.. Several....WHYs... on all the pertinent Angles of present Realities...of

Musicians... Audience... Organisers.. as well as the Popoularity... Why... So?

[Idiappam]

Barathithasan song on Tamil Isai:

[tscii:86bdc8ff58]À¡¼¸÷

¿¡Ôõ Å¢ü¨È ÅÇ÷ìÌõ;
Å¡ö¡ü¨Èô ¦À⦾ýÚ
¿¡¼Ä¡§Á¡?
§À¡ö ¯í¸û ¦ºó¾Á¢Æ¢ý
¦ÀÕ¨Á¢¨Éô Ò¨¾ôÀ£§Ã¡
À¡¼¸÷¸¡û!
§¾¡Ôó§¾ý ¿¢¸÷ ¾Á¢Æ¡ü
À¡¼¡§Á ¦¾Öí¸¢¨º¨Âî
¦º¡øÄ¢ô À¢î¨º
®Ôí¸û ±ýÀ£§Ã¡?
ÁÉ¢¾¨Ãô§À¡ø þÕ츢ýÈ£÷
±ýÉ Å¡ú×!

¦ºóòÁ¢Æ¢ø þ¨ºôÀ¡¼ø
þø¨Ä¦ÂÉî ¦ºôÒ¸¢ýÈ£÷
Á¡É Á¢ýÈ¢ô!
¨Àó¾Á¢Æ¢ø þ¨ºÂ¢ý§Èø
À¡úí¸¢½üÈ¢ø Å£úóТ¨Ã
Á¡öò¾ ÄýÈ¢
±ó¾Á¢Æ¢ø þ¨ºÂ¢ø¨Ä,
±ó¾¡ö째 ¯¨¼Â¢ø¨Ä
±ýÀ Ðñ§¼¡?
¯ó¾Á¢¨Æ «È¢Å£§Ã¡
¾Á¢ÆÈ¢×õ ¯ûÇЧš
¯í¸ð ¦¸øÄ¡õ?

¦ÅǢ¢ɢ§Ä ¦º¡øŦ¾É¢ø
¯õ¿¢¨Ä¨Á ¦Åð¸ì§¸
¼ý§È¡? ¿£Å£÷
¸¢Ç¢§À¡Äî ¦º¡øžýÈ¢ò
¾Á¢ú áü¸û ¬Ã¡öóÐ
¸¢Æ¢ò¾¢ ð˧á.
ÒÇ¢±ýÈ¡ø ÒÄ¢¦Âý§È
¯îºÃ¢ìÌõ ÒĢ£§Ã
ÒÙ¸ §Åñ¼¡õ
ÐÇ¢ÂÈ¢×õ ¾Á¢ú¦Á¡Æ¢Â¢ø
¯ûÇЧš À¡¼¸÷ìÌî
¦º¡øÅ£÷ ¦Áö¡ö![/tscii:86bdc8ff58]

[rshankar]

The language of the fare offered in any concert has to be taken from 2 points of view:
1. I have already expressed my opinion that the listener's choice should be kept in view. Given that the one fact that most (if not all of us) expressing ourselves here seem to agree upon is that in addition to its musicality, Carnatic music attracts us because of it's spirituality. In telugU: 'adhvaita siDDHIki amaratva laBDHiki gAnamE sOpAnamu' literally: music (gAnam) is the stairway (sOpAnam) to adhvaita siDDHi and obtaining immortality (amaratva laBDHi), I think that understanding the composition is crucial (albiet, not critical) to experiencing this plane of the music. While I agree that in an ideal world, all devotess would learn all languages and appreciate all songs, in practice I find that people well versed in 2 let alone many more languages are rarer than hens teeth. So, singing songs in a language that is well known to the audience is actually a great step in fostering a contemplative atmosphere in any concert. So, while I am not a proponent of tamizh isai only, I made the point that if the audience is composed to tamizh-speaking people, then songs in tamizh stand a much greater chance of being appreciated. If the performance is in a predominantly telugU speaking audience, then songs in telugu should be standard fare, and so on.
2. Another equally important aspect is the performers ability to understand and enunciate songs from different languages well. While I would say that it is imperative (and critical) for artistes to know the languages they choose to sing in, once again, all of know that it is sadly not true. I hold the practice of writing down songs and notations in tamizh to be responsible for many 'murders': like 'abarAma baktI' instead of 'appa rAma Bakti yentO gopparA', or 'anubama gunAmbudE' instead of 'anupama gunAmbuDHE' etc. Knowing the language is important to know how to split words when they sing neravals etc. Take this phrase for instance: 'DHaraNIlO nIvanti daivamu lEdandI' (there is no other god like you on this earth)...I have been utterly aghast at a singer going at it in the following way: daraNilo nIvantI (repeated several times) and then singing 'daivamu lEdandI' over and over again (almost as if he was daring the audience to convince him that god existed!). I am sure that had he understood the language better, he would have split the phrase differently, or better still, not chosen that particular phrase to split. So, from the point of the performer as well, they must stick to languages they are comfortable with.
So, what I am advocating is to vary the fare so that communication between the performer and audience is established easily and early in the concert, so that, the performer can then use the rest of his/her prowess in elevating them to an astral/spiritual plane.

[viggop]

Ravi Shankar
I agree with this point.As I posted previously,the singer must realize the meaning(literal and philosophical) meaning of the songs in which he sings.Only, then can he reach the spiritual plane and take the audience with him too.Otherwise,God will not be pleased at all.They should keep in mind that they are singing only for God's sake and not for their sake.Any slight ego in them will be punished by God and they'll be easily brought down to earth by HIM.

Even I have heard non-Tamil classical greats like Nedunuri Krishnamoorthy making lot of mistakes in singing Tamil songs.Also, the sruti bedham(pronounciation techniques) is extremely important.They have to make sure that they pronounce properly the words of the language in which they sing.This is the dharma of the carnatic music professionals.

As you observed,they should mix the fare and sing in any language with equal devotion.My point was that this language thing about which is greater language/great composers etc. should never be allowed inside
the concert hall.

Imagine if Sri Thaygaraja hears about that his music is greater than Dikshitar's music and there is a fight between other mortals who is greatest.I'm sure he would be shocked because his intention again is not to prove himself to be better than others.The intention of composers like Thygaraja and Diskhitar was Bhakthi--simplest way to reach God.

[viggop]

Idiappam
A humble request.Please do not post such polemical poetry by BharathiDasan in this thread.Reading such poetry will make people angry and filled with hate and other base feeling which will not take us closer to God.Reading/Hearing carnatic music songs/bhajans/abhangs in any language will evoke feeling of Bhakthi and will take us closer to God.

[viggop]

All the carnatic music singers should remember the story in Thiruvilayadal.There comes an arrogant singer who says that entire Pandya kingdom should be given to him if no one can match him in singing. Lord Shiva easily conquers his arrogance and that singer runs away in the night!

SO, carnatic singers of every generation must remember that it is through Lord Shiva's grace that they are able to sing well.If they become famous,rich and prosperous through music,it is again through HIS grace only.All the praises showered on them by audiences belongs to HIM only.Otherwise,none of them can even open their mouths :D

Looking at the current generation of singers,i feel they are much better now than previous generations.They need not wallow in poverty and CD's ,DVD's makes carnatic music reach audiences even in USA.Thygaraja aradhana is conducted not only in Thiruvayaru but also in Sydney and Cleveland etc.

So,Lord Shiva is showering his grace on them because they are not arrogant.They should never forget this and always remember that singing is for the Lord and only for the Lord.A slight tinge of arroagnce and then HE'll quell it like he destroyed kali in dance and Ravana's arroagnce. :)

[Idiappam]

Idiappam
A humble request.Please do not post such polemical poetry by BharathiDasan in this thread.Reading such poetry will make people angry and filled with hate and other base feeling which will not take us closer to God.Reading/Hearing carnatic music songs/bhajans/abhangs in any language will evoke feeling of Bhakthi and will take us closer to God.

I am not particularly concerned about what God feels, but the feelings of the hubbers are important to me! So, I will remove the last section of that Barathithasan song. Thank you for your kind advise.

[viggop]

I am not particularly concerned about what God feels, but the feelings of the hubbers are important to me! So, I will remove the last section of that Barathithasan song. Thank you for your kind advise.

Idiappam

It was a humble request and not advise. :D
Thanks a lot.

Wow! To say that you are not concerned about what God feels means that you must be a very brave person who always follows Dharma.Then, God will be your slave.There is one story to prove this.Total devotion to the Lord will make HIM obey you.

Lord Krishna wants to test the devotion of a potter who always chants his name.Lord Krishna goes and sits inside one of the pots the potter has made.Prompty,the potter sits on top of it and Krishna is not able to come out.Krishna asks the potter to release him but the potter refuses to release him unless Krishna blesses him that his devotion will never waver.Till that,he refuses to leave Lord Krishna from inside the pot by sitting on top of it.Lord Krishna,even though he has the power to lift the entire mountain with his little finger, cannot do anything now but accede to devotee's request.Only after Lord Krishna blesses him,the potter 'releases' Krishna :D The potter was so devoted that he could imprison the parabrahmam who contained the whole universe within himself.The potter refused to listen to Krishna's pleadings and his feelings :D You must be like the potter to make that statement.

[viggop]

Idiappam Sir
Another humble request.Please participate in the "Thiruvasagam" thread in Tamil Literature section.
Me,Madhu,Yudhagit and Ilavenil will greatly benefit by your knowledge of Thiruvasagam.The thread is struggling as none of us know a lot in Thiruvasagam.

[Vikram Sampath]

Ravi shankar, this time it was truly an interestign post that u made...while it does appear convincing, what im trying to say is this...while it is a good practice to suit the audience's choice and sing in a language they can associate with, doing that all the time compromises on the music! customer is king no doubt, but then at what cost??? dilution of the 'classicism' and 'tradition' just to pander to the so-called majority of the audience??


You did mention about concerts where varnam to mangalam the songs are in tamil..fair enuf...we have similar concerts in Bangalore on the Dasa sahitya where from start to end all compositions are in kannada...so, thats just not the point here...till about half a decade back tamil and Kannada songs were not even considered 'classical' enough to be included in the repertoire of any musician...sanskrit and telugu ruled the roost...these songs were at best tail-enders....(in fact purandara dasa kritis continue to be mere tail enders to this day, dont they)..so at that time wasnt the audience predominantly Tamil??? did they abandon the form ONLY because the songs were not in their own language...u r then ascribing a very parochial and regionalistic attitude to all tamilians--"we wil listen and appreciate only if its in our native language"...so that brings us to the original topic of this thread--so does that mean, carnatic music is tamil music /tamizh isai and the answer is an emphatic NO as i already elucidated earlier...for instance, if u observe the Hindustani vocal music scenario where 90% of the vocalists are maharashtrians--some tikekar, ankalikar, abhyankar, amonkar, talwalkar, sadolikar..in short *.kar :wink: (in C parlance!)...so does that make Hindustani music Marathi music??? or do these ppl resort to only Marathi songs?? in fact abhangas are tail enders in Hindustani concerts as much as they are in many carnatic recitals! the original places of origin of Hindustani music--be it Lucknow, or Jaipur, gwalior etc hardly listen to it these days...the case is similar to what happens in Andhra pradesh with carnatic music...so do the hindustani chaps compromise on the music just to "play to the galleries" and get a few extra claps????

i fully agree with ur statement abt the way musicians murder the lyrics due to ignorance...they should go the extra mile to understand what they sing, else its a futile attempt...they wudnt be able to emote and what doesnt come from the heart doesnt reach anotherz heart...thats one reason why a lot of carnatic concerts get reduced to mere lyrical and arithmetic jugglery, a lot of cacophony and very less melody and 'bhaava'...im not saying all of them,.but in cases where the singer is oblivious to the meanings. a very reputed singer once rattled on "Brandy yathako manuja" to a dasa kriti which was actually "bhranthi yathako"(why are u dazed o man! ) :wink:
and the majority of the kannada speaking crowd sat stunned to noe if he was propagating teetotalism :wink: so i agree there that one must take supreme care of the lyrics, esp since carnatic is more sahitya oriented...

[Idiappam]

Vikram wrote:

so does that mean, carnatic music is tamil music /tamizh isai and the answer is an emphatic NO

You are right there! Carnatic music is just an infertile offshoot of Tamil Isai!

[Idiappam]

Idiappam Sir
Another humble request.Please participate in the "Thiruvasagam" thread in Tamil Literature section.
Me,Madhu,Yudhagit and Ilavenil will greatly benefit by your knowledge of Thiruvasagam.The thread is struggling as none of us know a lot in Thiruvasagam.

I think there is great progress, with all of you there, especially Yudhajit! Great really. See you at the Tamil Isai thread soon.

Meanwhile, I will listen to a thirupugazh set to kunthalavarali at this site. You too, Mr Viggop!

http://www.musicindiaonline.com/l/1/s/album.2284/artist.51/

[viggop]

Carnatic music came from Lord Shiva himself.It belongs to HIM.

[viggop]

Idiappam
Arunagiri's thirupugazh was lovely but unfortunately,i do not understand its meaning.Please post the meaning in some threads.For e.g.
Dr.Jaybee is giving us translations of Skanda Sashti Kavacham.

Similarily,erudite persons like you can take a literature section(say Thirupugazh) and explain its meaning(literary and philosophical) in simple words.It would benefit lot of young people like me. :)

[Vikram Sampath]

Vikram wrote:

so does that mean, carnatic music is tamil music /tamizh isai and the answer is an emphatic NO

You are right there! Carnatic music is just an infertile offshoot of Tamil Isai!


Idiappam, if that was meant as a joke...ok well taken, i tickled myself to death..but if u meant what u said, then it was quite a base thing to say and facts would prove ur statement otherwise..!
God bless!

[Idiappam]

Over to Tamil Isai thread! Shall post there on Tamil Isai!

[Sudhaama]

For all such oppositions... there are ... UNBIASED... VALID.. .HEALTHY.. Answers... based on REASONING...

... Which I will put forth as the LAST man... after hearing from others ... more knowledged ...

... but like-minded with me...as... PRO THYAGARAJA-KEERTHANA ADMIRERS

... In fact I am WAITING ... Dear Friends... Nobody to speak on the OTHER SIDE?

[Idiappam]

What opposition did you note here, Mr Sudhamaa?

[viggop]

Sudhaama
Are you assuming being pro-thygaraja keerthanas means being anti-non thygaraja keerthanas? Nothing like that.I like carnatic music because of its nature.Other than keerthanai,you have varnams,javalis ,padams,RTP's etc too in carnatic music.everything is enjoyable in carnatic music.Every keerthanai of every composer rendered well is beautiful.being pro does not mean being anti others!

[Sudhaama]

[tscii:2e4c213f48]
Copied from another Thread of The Hub... Reproduced here.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

"viggop"

Tyagaraja proceeded from Kovvur to Tirupati. As the party was leaving, Sundaresa Mudaliar thrust a bag of gold coins into the palanquin in which Tyagaraja was to travel. The disciples were requested not to inform Tyagaraja about the money. En route at Nakalapuram, dacoits began stoning the convoy, terrifying the disciples but not Tyagaraja who stated that since they had no money they need fear nothing.

The penitent disciples then confessed to the Guru about the presence of the cash whereupon Tyagaraja felt that the money ought to be given to the robbers at once. At this, one of Tyagaraja’s disciples mentioned that Mudaliar had been emphatic that the money was meant for Rama’s worship and so they did not have the right to dispose off the cash. Tyagaraja resolved the problem in his usual forthright fashion by stating that if it was Rama’s money He ought to protect it Himself. For his part, he sang the kriti mundu vENUka in darbAr and the stoning stopped. The dacoits rushed to Tyagaraja and fell at his feet and requested him to enable them to have a repeat vision of the two handsome warriors who had appeared and guarded the convoy when he began his song. Tyagaraja realised that his song had ironically enabled the bandits to have a darshan of his Lord, while he had himself not had the pleasure.
[/tscii:2e4c213f48]