The Greatest Indian Epic - Mahabharath [Archive]

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Raghu

31st March 2005, 08:36 PM

Dear all,

Let's discuss about the Greatest Epic ever and it's Characters, from the Pandavas, Kauravas to Lord Krishna. I would be greatful if intellectuals like Sudhaama / Pradheep actively take part in this.

Ok, here is my first Question, Lord Vishnu took an Avatar as Krishna during the Dwapara Yuga as Krishna/Balram, and as Ram/lakshman in Satya Yuga, where the lord is to take an Avatr as Kalki in the Kali yuga.

were all my statements above correct, Kalki avtar is said to be the last Avatar in the process, this is the Lord's 10th Avatar!

now, which year did the greatest battle of Kurushestra take place?

viggop

31st March 2005, 09:13 PM

Dear Raghu
Let us stick to the characters of Mahabharatha.Going into dates in tricky and will lead to confusions.

Lakshmana was an avatara of Adi Seshan

viggop

31st March 2005, 09:15 PM

I think Mahabharatha as a story starts with King Janemajayan /King Yayati?

Raghu

31st March 2005, 09:34 PM

Dear Raghu
Let us stick to the characters of Mahabharatha.Going into dates in tricky and will lead to confusions.

Lakshmana was an avatara of Adi Seshan

Dear viggop

Ok, cool, but Balram was an avatar of Lakshman right?

Raghu

31st March 2005, 09:44 PM

was the greatest warrior Karna Right about his Dharma, ie, even though he knew that his
dearest friend Dhoriyodhana was fighting an adharma Yuth, and he will be fighting his own brothers?

Are his reasons justified by the fact, his life was indebted to Dhoriyodhana, I think he chose
the right path, any different opinions?

hehehewalrus

31st March 2005, 11:24 PM

Viggop,
Yayati's story is different. I think the king you are referring to is Vichitra Veerya(or Veeran?). Yayati was another ancient king whose storyline is somewhat similar to Dushyantha.

Reminded of the Mahabharat series that ran on Doordarshan starting Sunday October 2 1988. Interestingly, the Seoul Olympics ended that day :D

Vichitra Veerya rules over Hastinapur and during the course of his hunting expeditions, happen to encounter Ganga and marries her..Ganga is of course the sea goddess who tosses 7 of their children into the sea. The moment Vichitra questions her, she leaves him for good.

wait a minute, if my memory is right, VV was father to Dhritharashtra and Pandu. If thats the case, VV is not the guy who married ganga...did Pandu and Dh.... come up so early in the family tree?

anyways, the mahabharat on TV was good fun(Oct 88 to May 90) - lot of old Hindi actors/actresses. Rupa Ganguly played Draupadi, Nitish Bharadwaj as Krishna, Puneet Issar as Duryodhan(following his successful portrayal, Puneet enjoyed a fine casting in a murder mystery serial that ran Thursday nights 9:50), Praveen Kumar as Bheema - Praveen is none else but the guy who won the discus bronze medal for India in the Teheran Asian Games 1974 :D

hehehewalrus

31st March 2005, 11:26 PM

Remember Amrapali and Yayati's stories appearing back to back in Amar Chitra Katha releases in the mid-80s. I think RK Narayan covered yayati in "Gods, Demons and Other Stories".

Badri

1st April 2005, 06:19 AM

It is sad that sometimes the only way we get information about our immortal epics is by way of TV serials.

Anyway, hehewalrus, that was Shantanu. He was Bheesma's father. It was he who married Ganga.

Madhu, regarding your question about Karna, I have this to share with you.

was the greatest warrior Karna Right about his Dharma, ie, even though he knew that his
dearest friend Dhoriyodhana was fighting an adharma Yuth, and he will be fighting his own brothers?

Are his reasons justified by the fact, his life was indebted to Dhoriyodhana, I think he chose
the right path, any different opinions?

Actually, although at face value, what Karna did seems right to everyone, and therefore, Krishna and Arjuna seem to be the villains of the piece in unfairly killing Karna, consider the following argument.

Karna was ridiculed as a mere charioteer's son even though he excelled in the archery contest. Duryodhana for his own selfish reasons more than friendship for Karna immediately stepped in and offered Karna a kingdom, and made him the king of Anga Desa.

This made Karna indebted to Duryodhana. So far so good. In fact, the friendship between Karna and Duryodhana was so strong that it seems once Karna was playing dice with Duryodhana's wife when her upper garment slipped and fell, and she did not notice it. Duryodhana, who happened to come by, saw this and he helped her with her dress, without saying a word in anger, meaning he trusted Karna so much.

Excellent relationship. Now comes the tricky question of Dharma. Clearly, what Duryodhana did later on (tricking the Pandavas, and worse, disrobing Draupadi) was wrong. Now, if Raghu, I were really a good friend of you, would I cheer you in your wrong doing, or would I step in and tell you the consequences of your act? Would I counsel you and prevent you from doing something that would bring harm on you, or would I egg you on, and participate along with you in the wrong doing?

This is what Karna did. He, along with Duryodhana, Dusshana and Shakuni became counted as the Dushta Chatushtaya or the Four Villains for his infamous act in disrobing Draupadi. In fact, it was he who suggested it to Duryodhana in the first place.

While people argue that Karna was an epitome of gratitude, nothing can be farther from the truth. In actually leading his best friend down the path of ruin and ultimately to death, he not only brought a blemish on friendship but also on gratitude.

Perhaps by fighting he tried to make amends. Even then, his fight was against Arjuna, so there was the element of personal vendetta too involved in his supporting Duryodhana in the war. It was not purely an unselfish participation, merely for the sake of Duryodhana who had helped him. Therefore in fighting for Duryodhana, there was no question of any dharma at all - neither dharma as in right vs wrong, nor in dharma as in a debt of friendship.

In fact, with respect to Karna, one can say, with friends like these, who needs enemies!!

Badri

1st April 2005, 06:24 AM

Viggop,
Yayati's story is different. I think the king you are referring to is Vichitra Veerya(or Veeran?). Yayati was another ancient king whose storyline is somewhat similar to Dushyantha.

Actually Viggop is right. The Mahabharatha story can be said to start with Yayati. He was the forefather of the Kuru line. Yayati had three sons, and lived to a ripe old age, when he wanted to enjoy the pleasures of youth again. He approached each son, and requested them to exchange their youth for his old age. The first 2 refused, and only the 3rd Puru accepted to sacrifice his youth to satisfy his father's desire. Yayati further enjoyed as a young man, with renewed vigour, when wisdom finally dawned on him that no matter how much one strives to enjoy the pleasures of the world, one never gets truly satisfied. Much chastened, he returned the youth back to Puru and further rewards him by making him the heir to the throne although he was the third son. One of Yayati's son founds the Yadava race. Puru's descendants became the Kuru clan to which both the Kauravas and the Pandavas belonged.

hehehewalrus

1st April 2005, 09:22 AM

Anyway, hehewalrus, that was Shantanu. He was Bheesma's father. It was he who married Ganga.

Badri, thanks for correcting :D Nice recollection there! I forgot how Bheeshma was born. I remember the point where Ganga takes another baby to the river and Shanthanu follows her and stops her before she tosses that one. Who exactly was Bheeshma's mother?

About Yayati, I am not able to remember much. I can only recollect this fragment : Yayati is going on a chariot with his first wife and they approach a group of boys playing in the forest. The boys note him and cry out "It's father"! Yayati's wife cries out, "Father?? Nooooooo!!!" :P Is that the same Yayati or am I totally wrong there?

Its not true that other than TV there is no way of recollecting these stories. Starting with Krishna(1980) Amar Chitra Katha was released as a fortnightly and covered one character from history/mythology each issue. This was the bread-and-butter of most school kids and they covered arguably lesser known characters in great detail, such as Shikhandi, Parasurama, Hari Singh Nalva. (When I was 12, I fractured my hand and was exempt from school for 2 months. My mother used to get half dozen books daily from the nearby library to keep me occupied. When Mahabharat started in October, my joy knew no bounds - Ramayan had ended in July 88 and the scenes of those funny graphic wars between Indrajith and Ram/Lakshman vanished for a while. Good to see those funny fights where the TV screen shows two toy arrows approaching each other at top speed, with a loud whoooooooooosh sound in the background, and then one arrow hits the other exactly in the middle and splits it into two! :lol2: :lol2: :lol2: After watching those fights, we kids started collecting ballpen refills and fire away on "targets" all over the neighborhood)

blahblah

1st April 2005, 11:24 AM

Nice topic guys.Even as a Christian Hindu Mythology has fascinated me always.I have grown up reading them.I can't be sure about my memory.But if I can join in:

The great novel,Yayati by V.S. Khandekar if I remember right,gives a complete insight into the life of this king.He became prematurily aged due to a curse from Shukracharya for illtreating his daughter Devayani whom Yayati married.

Now for Bhishma and Shantanu,Shantanu was the king Mahabhishek in an earlier birth.Once when he was in Indra's durbar,Goddess Ganga entered the place.Due to breeze her dress was slightly removed from her body.All present removed their gaze out of respect for the Goddess but Mahabhishek who was mesmerized by the beauty of the Goddess stared at her.Upon this,Brahma cursed him that he will be born in the Bharatha dynasty and will have Ganga as his wife from whom he will suffer great grief.

When he was born as Shantanu he was once sitting near the Ganga river and saw a beautiful woman.The rest of the story is already discussed here.

Later ,Devavratha,the son of Ganga and Shantanu was returned to him by the Goddess.Once Shantanu went to see the chief of fishermen in his country.He was not home and Shantanu fell for his daughter Satyavati who was alone at home.He requested her hand in marriage,but the fisherman kept the condition that her children should inherit the kingdom.The king returned in sadness as it was the right of Devaratha.Upon seeing his father sad,Devavratha asked his charioteer about the happenings and went to see the fisherman.He promosed that he won't raise claim to the throne.Not satisfied with this the chief raised the suspicion that one day his children may stake claim to the throne.At this Devavratha took a terrible vow,that he will never marry or have children of his own and will stay away from power forever.Devas appeared on the sky and showered praises and flowers upon him ,surprised at his devotion for his father.From that moment he was called Bhishma,one who has taken a terrible oath.[The usage 'Bhishma Shapatham' was derived from this].

Raghu

1st April 2005, 02:28 PM

Dear all,

Great to see all the Participants, esp Blablah being a Christian his knowledge is commandable in Hindusim.

HHW,

Please try and discuss about Mahabharth or Ramayana only, if possible, thanks

hehehewalrus

1st April 2005, 03:13 PM

Ragu,
What do you mean?? Was I talking Greek and Latin here?? :? :?

viggop

1st April 2005, 06:13 PM

Dear BlahBlah
Mahabharatha is an Indian Mythology.Hindu Gods play a part in it because at those times all were following Hinduism in India.

All people of Indian origin can ***own*** it and comment on it.

Karna was also a great donor.Arjuna's arrows could not kill him because of his accumulated Dharma.

Lord Krishna had to disguise himself as a poor brahmin and ask for all the good dharma as Bhiksha.only after Karna gives that,his life departs.So,Lord Krishna blesses him that he'll reach the heaven for warriors.

blahblah

1st April 2005, 06:44 PM

viggop

1st April 2005, 07:38 PM

Dear BlahBlah
I meant that Mahabharata is an epic of India,not Hindu epic.Hindus do not own any exclusive right to comment on it.All People of Indian origin can own it as their own.

Hope you did not take it any other wrong way??? If yes,you can pm me if there is something wrong in it and i'll delete it immediately.

Raghu

1st April 2005, 07:44 PM

Karna was also a great donor.Arjuna's arrows could not kill him because of his accumulated Dharma.

Lord Krishna had to disguise himself as a poor brahmin and ask for all the good dharma as Bhiksha.only after Karna gives that,his life departs.So,Lord Krishna blesses him that he'll reach the heaven for warriors.

Did you know that Hanuman from Satya Yuga was on Arjuna Chariot, protecting him all the way, as per Lord Krishna's request? ,

Hanuman ji also came to test the physical strength of Bhima in Mahabarath.

viggop

1st April 2005, 07:56 PM

Raghu
I know that Hanuman came as an old monkey and destroyed the arrogance of Bhima in Mahabharatha.

How come Hanuman was in chariot of Arjuna? I have not read this story.

viggop

1st April 2005, 08:00 PM

Karna was also born with a Kavacham and kundalam.
Even that is taken away by Krishna in the battle when he is pierced with Arjuna's arrows.With which God did Kunti beget Karnan? Was it Surya?

Raghu

1st April 2005, 08:37 PM

How come Hanuman was in chariot of Arjuna? I have not read this story.

Yes, this is true, I have seen This on the Krishna Series, Once Karna has been Killed, Lord Krishna takes Arjuna to a secret place, and tells him to come off the chariot, and he calls for Hanuman ji, who appears in front of him from the chariot, and as soon as Hanuman ji leaves the chariot, it blows into pieces and the lord Krishna tells Arjuna that Hanuman Ji was protecting him from the formidable & ferocious force of Ankaraj Karna.

Sudhaama

2nd April 2005, 12:41 AM

(1)Karna's Father is Sun God but he was the forsaken child of his Mother Kunthi.... picked and brought up by "Raadhaaeya" ... the Charioter of Duryodana. ... So he was considered as a Non-Kshathriya by the Kings, in those days Only a born Kshathriya was considered qualified to become a King or even play or fight with the Royal-family members... or even the common Kshathriyas... in wars..

(2) Duryodana, an Embodiment of Jealousy... could not win over the Pandavas in any Game or even the playful fights with any one of them....considered INVINCIBLE. ... during their early days of Boyhood.

(3) While Duryodana was waiting for someone...(even a Stranger)... who could challenge the valour of Pandavas... he was very happy to find Karna as the best choice to fit in that place of his demand... He considered him as the possible future support to confront Pandavas.. And so moved his Diplomatic coins to gain the friendship of Karna... out of Selfishness and Wickedness. Hence made Karna his Junior-King to rule over the country called "Anga-desam"

(4) Karna's character is UNPARALLEL with any Epic or Story... even Internationally...so commented by the Global scholars... Because he was such a Great NOBLE Man on one face but coupled with an unusual attitude of Complexity, Perplexity and Paradoxical-principles.... Very difficult for anybody to define him correctly either as Good or Bad... In fact he was a Combination of the Best possible Propensities of a Noble Human... even Divine... along with the opposite qualities of a Beastly Cruel Sadist too. .. on the other face.

(5) Hanuman was the Emblem in the Flag of Arjuna... We can see in the Geethoapadesam pictures.

Surya

2nd April 2005, 07:39 AM

This always interests me. :D

Krishna at the end of Shree Krishna's avataram, is sitting below a tree, resting. When a hunter takes aim at Krishna's feet thinking it's a fruit, and shoots the arrow. The arrow kills Shree Krishna. And this is justified because, In Vishnu's last avatar (Shree RAM) Shree Ram kills Valee from behind, shooting valee on his back with an arrow. Which is against the Yudha Dharm. And vaalee is supposed to have taken another life of the Vedan in that time.

PS: Great Topic!! :thumbsup:

viggop

2nd April 2005, 10:38 AM

Surya
Normal people will not die if a toe is cut off.But,Lord Krishna dies!!! That is because his duty is done and he no longer needs to be in the earth.
So,he uses this oppurtunity to leave his mortal body.It also teaches us that bad karma will have bad reaction and even God cannot avoid it.
So,try to accumulate good karma is the message to all of us

blahblah

2nd April 2005, 11:15 AM

Viggop,no misunderstandings.

I consider Bhishma,Karna and Abhimanyu as the greatest characters in Mahabharatha.I don't agree with the bad friendship aspect of the Karna-Duryodhana relationship expressed by Walrus here.I believe even if there were personal reasons for Karna being allied with the Kauravas,it was just and reasonable for him to do so.

Mahabharatha is a great epic of trust,valour,deceit,greed and dharma.

A particular incident which unfolds great drama is the killing of Drona by making him believe that his son Aswathama is dead and taking advantage of his love for his son.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Discussing this particular topic reminds me a little incident of religious tolerance.Years back when DD was telecasting this serial,my local parish church postponed the sunday mass by 30 minutes to let us watch it! Consider that our little village has 90%christians in the total population! Those are ways we have forgotten far back! :cry:

Roshan

2nd April 2005, 11:59 AM

Discussing this particular topic reminds me a little incident of religious tolerance.Years back when DD was telecasting this serial,my local parish church postponed the sunday mass by 30 minutes to let us watch it! Consider that our little village has 90%christians in the total population! Those are ways we have forgotten far back! :cry:

Oh!! that's really heart warming and great blahblah !! Thanks for sharing it here. :) But hardly it opens a bigot's eyes. See how the way some 'preachers' are making fun of Pope's health condition :twisted:

viggop

2nd April 2005, 02:07 PM

All the deceits in the war is done by Krishna.
He is the master of all the aluguni games.

Dronacharya was the chief commander of Kaurava army.He is impossible to defeat in the war.

When an elephant called Ashwathama dies,Krishna asks Yudishtra to tell a lie.Yudihstra refuses to tell a lie.So,Krishna asks him to tell "Aswathama kapi kunjaraha"
The first two words mean "Ashwathama Died" .This he tells loudly.The last word is "Kunjaraha" meaning elephant.When Yudishtra tells this,Krishna blows his conch so that it is not heard clearly to Drona.Saddened that his son has died,Drona puts down his weapons and starts to meditate.Taking this oppurtunity,Draupada's son(Drishtadyumna?) cuts off his head when Drona was meditating!!!(a courageous act by a prince???)

Because of Yudishtra's adherence to dharma,seems his chariot was always in the air and never touches the ground.
Anyway,for telling that one lie, Yudishtra's chariot falls to the ground and becomes like other chariots.

viggop

2nd April 2005, 02:17 PM

After Drona's death,Duryodhana appoints Ashwathama as the chief commander of Kaurava army.Ashwathama to avenge the death of his father by foul means,does a foul act in the night.He sneaks into the Pandava army camp in the night and kills five sons of arjuna thinking that they are pandavas themselves.
Arjuna gets mad at this and wows to kill Ashwathama.But ,both are great warriors and both know how to use the brahma astra.(supposed to be the most powerful weapon)
In the war,when ashwathama & Arjuna meet,they both use brahma astra.This will lead to a major catastrophe so Krishna asks both to withdraw that weapon.Arjuna complies but Ashwathama refuses and so Krishna uses his divine powers to stop it.
But,i think it still causes lot of destruction to pandava army.

Angered by Ashwathama's refusal to withdraw his weapon,Krishna curses him thus

"Since you thought your victory depends on death of others,your defeat will depend on your living till eternity!" .

Thus,Ashwathama beccomes a chiranjevi.Krishna then plucks out a jewel which was in Ashwathama's head from the moment he was born and this causes him lot of pain.
Thus Ashwathama has to withstand all the pain and he has no death to relieve him of that pain.Painful lIfe for him

blahblah

2nd April 2005, 03:00 PM

When an elephant called Ashwathama dies,Krishna asks Yudishtra to tell a lie.Yudhishtira refuses to tell a lie.So,Krishna asks him to tell "Aswathama kapi kunjaraha"

Forgive me if I am wrong.My idea is that as per Krishna's advice the Pandavas named an elephant 'Aswathama'.Then Bheema killed that elephant.The Pandava group cried out that 'Aswathama is dead'! Then Drona asked Yudhishtira whether it is true.He said "Aswathama HRUTHA frumgaya'.He pronounced the word which I have written in caps in a low voice[which means elephant] so as to make Drona believe that his son is dead.

I am so confused about this as I have little knowledge about Sanskrit and I speak from memory.Some one to clear this stuff please?I don't mind acknowledging that I am very weak at other languages! :cry:

Surya

3rd April 2005, 07:59 AM

madhu

3rd April 2005, 08:46 AM

Hi !

I dont know whether this posting is relevant here.. But the name "Aswathama" made me recollect about a description from the novel of popular marathi writer V.S.Kandekar.(in his novel Amudhakkodi.....of course I read it only in tamil).

There he describes Aswathama as the sole representative of mankind..

Why ?

He has been devoid of mother's love.. no milk.. only flour mixed in water..
Nothing from his famour father DronA... Though his father loved him.. his best pupil was Arjuna only
No good friends... Duryodhana gave Anga desh to Karna but nothing to Aswathama
No marriage or wife...
No speacial positions in Kurukshetra war also..
Duryodhana made him "Senapathi" after he lost everything in the battlefield.. A senapathi without Sena ! :D
Even then Aswathama killed the upa pAndavAs and took revenge.
With his name even Yudhistra told his only lie ! ( of his lifetime)

He lost even the jewel from his head, which will give him eternal pain and a bloody hole...

There is only one way to escape from all the problems of life.. DEATH..
But he is a Chiranjeevi and fate closed even that door for him..
So, even today he is roaming with a bloody head and pain with no end to his sorrows... searching for something.. which may or may not occur..

Likewise, every human being in this world is having eternal pain inside and searching for a solace..

So.. Ashwathama is the real representative of human being in Mahabaratha..

(I am not a good writer.. I just try to recollect it..If somebody knows more about this may plz post it)

thanks

viggop

3rd April 2005, 07:48 PM

Good one Madhu!
About the philosophical meaning of Ashwathama character.
Why was Ashwathama devoid of mother's milk?
I think Kripi(sister of Kripacharya) was the wife of Drona.

Also , who curses Lord Krishna that his yadava clan will be wiped out? Is it Kunthi or Gandhari?

Surya

4th April 2005, 06:20 AM

Also , who curses Lord Krishna that his yadava clan will be wiped out? Is it Kunthi or Gandhari?

That was Gandhari. There's another reason for the extinction of the Yadhava Kulam. After Krishna the Yadhavas are so proud, they are blinded. They just drank, and partied, drank and partied etc. One day there are some Rishis doing a Yaagam and the Yadhavas are completly drunk. They decide to mess around with the Rishies so they dress one of the Yadhavas as a Pregnant Woman and disturb the Rishis Thabas. The Rishi knows what's going on due to Nyana Dhristi, but still remains calm. The Yadhavas are presistent in their annoying behavior and finally the Rishi, now pushed to his limits curses,
"Ivanukku oru irumbu thoon pirakkum, antha thoon un Kulathai azhikkum!"
Meaning, He will give birth to a huge iron piller and that pillar will destroy the Yadhava Kula.
The Yadhavas don't take this seriously, and finally leave, on their way to the Palace, one of the Yadhavas starts getting contractions, and very painfully, gives birth to an iron pillar! The other Yadhavas now petrified decide that they can't let the piller excist, because the curse stated that it will destroy the Yadhavas. So they somehow grind it up and rid it in the middle of the ocean. After a few days the waves bring the iron powder to the shore, (that's why u can still find metal on the beaches with a Magnet) This powder some how fertilizes a certain area of the beach, and huge thorn weeds start growing. Later, as usual the Yadhavas are drinking and messing around with each other, when one of them gets pushed into the thorn bush, and hurts his arm. Now enraged, he breaks one of the branches off, and uses it as a weapon against the individual that pushed him down, now this guy does the same, and it turns into a huge fight, and eventually leads to the demise of the Yadhavs.

Regards. 8)

atomhouse

4th April 2005, 02:31 PM

Here is an interesting information,

When the Agneya weapon, "a blazing missile of smokeless fire" is unleashed by the hero Adwattan in mahabaratha war,
"Birds croaked madly...the very elements seemed disturbed. The sun seemed to waver in the heavens. The earth shook, scorched by the terrible violent heat of this weapon. Elephants burst into flame and ran to and fro in a frenzy...over a vast area, other animals crumpled to the ground and died. From all points of the compass the arrows of flame rained continuously and fiercely."
" An incandescent column of smoke and flame as bright as the thousand suns rose in all its splendour...An iron thunderbolt, a gigantic messenger of death, which reduced to ashes the entire race of the Vrishnis and the Andhakas....The corpses were so burned as to be unrecognizable. The hair and nails fell out; pottery broke without apparent cause, and the birds turned white....After a few hours all foodstuffs were infected.... To escape from this fire, the soldiers threw themselves in streams to wash themselves and their equipment..."
- The Mahabharata
Observers feel these descriptions suggest an atomic war!

"When the Rishi City of Mohenjodaro was excavated by archaeologists in the last century, they found skeletons just lying in the streets, some of them holding hands, as if some great doom had suddenly overtaken them. These skeletons are among the most radioactive ever found, on a par with those found at Hiroshima and Nagasaki."
"Futhermore, at Mohenjo-Daro, a well planned city laid on a grid, with a plumbing system superior to those used in Pakistan and India today, the streets were littered with 'black lumps of glass'. These globs of glass were discovered to be clay pots that had melted under intense heat! "
- D. Hatcher Childress, "Ancient Indian Aircraft Technology"
In The Anti-Gravity Handbook

Raghu

4th April 2005, 03:11 PM

After Drona's death,Duryodhana appoints Ashwathama

No, it was Ankaraj Karna who was appointed as the commander in Chief, Aswathama got appointed after Karna dies

Raghu

4th April 2005, 03:24 PM

Also , who curses Lord Krishna that his yadava clan will be wiped out? Is it Kunthi or Gandhari?

it was Ghandari, she curses Lord Krishna in Kurusheshtra, after seeing al the corpses and the mourning of the widows

Raghu

4th April 2005, 04:35 PM

More or less, the greatest warriors of Kauravas, Like Bhishmar, Guru Drona and Ankaraj Karna were killed in an adharma war, esp Karna, Lord Krishna deprived Karna of his powers in 7 deceitful ways.

1) Send Indran to Deprive his Kavasa Kunadalas
2) Get Kunti to ask Karna uses his Naha Ashthira only once at Arjuna
3) Karna's Chariot wheel get stuck in the earth, during the battle, due to some curse by a bhramin
4) Vows to Kunti, that he will not kill any other pandavas , but Arjuna, later Karna
Defeats all 4 Pandavas and grants their life
5) Lord Krishna Pushes Arjuna's chariot, ask Karna Fires the Nahasthira, so it only takes Arjuna's Crown
6) Curse by Parashuram, as Karna lies,and pretends to be a brahman to learn Archery from the great Acharya.
7) Lord Krishna Makes Karna use an Asthiram on Gadotgaja (Bhima' son), which Karna reserved for Arjuna

any thing else, I missed?
_________________
Om Namashivaya

viggop

4th April 2005, 04:49 PM

I think Karna was trying to pass over as a brahmin to some guru.But,Krishna takes the form of a scorion and keeps on biting him when the guru sleeps on Karna's lap.Blood gushes forth but Karna bears the severe pain so as not to wake up his guru.After the guru wakes up and asks Karna the reason for so much blood.When Karna tells him the reason,he immediately knows that Karna cannot be a brahmin because brahmins cannot withstand that much pain as they are not strong people.Only a person from Kshatriya class(royal lineage) can withstand it and curses Karna for lying.

Also, remember that the above incident takes place long before the war has even started.So,Krishna being the suthradari(one who is cause of everything),comes as a scorpion even then knowing fully what will happen in the future.

Krishna also comes as a brahmin and asks Karna for all his good karma as otherwise the soul does not leave the body.Even when he is dying,karna grants it to him.

viggop

4th April 2005, 04:58 PM

One interesting thing about Krishna pushing the chariot down when the Nagaasthra is about to kill Arjuna.Krishna could have easily done it even when Karna sends his asthram.But,Arjuna had ego that it would not do anything and he could destroy the weapon using his prowess alone.
All his weapons fails to stop the Naga Astra and only then he asks Krishna for his help.

The moral behind this is that Lord demands total devotion,total surrender onto him.If there is a slight ego which makes us think "we" ,"I" can do anything,then he'll prove it to you that even an atom cannot move without HIS will.

Another story to support this is when Draupadi is being disrobed.She is full of arrogance and never calls to Krishna.She tries to protect her "Body" associating her atma with this body.atma is undying and this body is just a clothe for it for some time.Finally,draupadi lets go of her association with her body and reveals her breasts and prays to Krishna with both hands beseeching HIM.
**ONLY** then,Krishna saves her honour.

Raghu

4th April 2005, 05:00 PM

viggop

4th April 2005, 05:02 PM

Can someone tell me the story behind Karna's wheel getting stuck because of a curse during the battle?

Raghu

4th April 2005, 05:15 PM

The moral behind this is that Lord demands total devotion, total surrender onto him. If there is a slight ego which makes us think "we" ,"I" can do anything, then he'll prove it to you that even an atom cannot move without HIS will.

exactly, this reminds of another greatest event, when the Pandavas were in their VanaVasha, Lord Krishna wanted to destroy Arjuna's Ego of being the greatest archer, Lord Krishna calls up the supreme personality of God Head, Parama Iswar (Rudra i.e. Maheshwar,) so Lord Shiva takes the body of a hunter, and ventures into the jungle, there Arjuna and Maheshwar shoot a deer, both Arjuna's arrow and Maheshwar's arrow strikes and kills the deer at the same time, both of them had an argument as to who killed the deer first, this led to a fight, Arjuna tried all his asthirams on the supreme personality of GOD head, Maha Iswar, without realising this, Arjuna was like an ant in front of an Elephant, later Arjuna tried 'MalYuth (wrestling)' with Lord Maheshwar, in which Lord Shiva Hugged him Tight, and Arjuna could not even Move an inch, nor was he able to breath.

Lord Krishna appear in front of him and asks Arjuna to open his Gnana KaN (Eyes of wisdom), when he does Paramatha Maheshwar appears in front of him and grant him a boon. This was a huge blow for Arjuna's Ego.

viggop

4th April 2005, 06:04 PM

A very tough quiz on the Mahabharatha.I scored 10/25

http://www.funtrivia.com/playquiz.cfm?qid=150304
&origin=http://www.funtrivia.com/search2_act.cfm_QN_type=quizzes_AND_searchstring=
The+great+mahabharatha_AND_Go.x=13_AND_Go.y=14

4th April 2005, 06:53 PM

Nice quiz Vinugop... scored 22/25 :-)

3 that eluded me are : First arrow (Dhushasana), Beema's son's guru (krishna) and Jayatrada (Shiva's boon).

Querida

4th April 2005, 10:20 PM

viggop

5th April 2005, 11:33 AM

2 questions
============
(1)Can someone tell me the story behind Karna's wheel getting stuck because of a curse during the battle?

(2) I think Krishna also sacrifices the life of "Aravan" .another son of the Pandavas.But the above quiz gives name of Bheema's son being sacrificed.I have not heard about this story too.

blahblah

5th April 2005, 01:19 PM

The quiz was a good one,though a bit tough.

Yet,it may interest you to know that I scored 25/25 at the second attempt! :D :D :lol:

5th April 2005, 01:52 PM

2 questions
============
(1)Can someone tell me the story behind Karna's wheel getting stuck because of a curse during the battle?

...Karna traveled to mount Mahendra where the great sage Parashurama lived. He bowed before the great rishi and with folded hands, he pleaded, зI am a brahmana descending in the line of Bhrigu. Please instruct me in the science of arms.' Hearing that the youth was a brahmana, Parashurama replied, зIndeed, you are welcome here.' Karna then took up his abode in the great sage's hermitage and became his disciple. While residing on Mount Mahendra, he met many Gandharvas, Yakshas and Rakshasas. He made friends with them, and they instructed him in how to use many weapons. He became a great favorite of the demigods. One day as he was roaming the area around the hermitage, he happen to kill a cow by accident. When he informed the brahmana who owned the cow, the brahmana became enraged and cursed Karna saying, O wretched person, you shall bear the fruit of this sinful act. While fighting with you worst enemy, the earth shall devour your chariot wheel. In that state of confusion, your enemy will cut off your head. Just as you have killed my cow when she was inattentive, so your enemy will kill you in the same way!' Karna tried to pacify the brahmana, but the brahmana would not withdraw the curse. Thus Karna returned to his preceptor greatly unhappy.

... and since he lied to Parasurama that he was a Brahmana, when Parasurama came to know that he was a kshatriya and not a Brahmana, he cursed Karna that he will forget all mantrams to divyastrams when he needs them the most....

Raghu

5th April 2005, 03:15 PM

wow this is all so interesting..thanx Raghu and to the many hubbers for contributing...i never had the chance to see tv serials let alone read the books (comic or otherwise)...so im really appreciate this thread :D

No Problem Querida, I always wanted to start this, as I found this topic ever so interesting than anything in life, but was afraid of poor responses and interaction, but now I am happy to see many responses.

viggop

5th April 2005, 03:37 PM

Will Kunthi also curse Krishna when they attend the cremation of Karna?
When Yudishtra comes to know that Karna was their own elder brother,he is filled with remorse and confronts Kunti about it.
He is angry that his mother kept this as a secret.

He curses that from then on, women will never be able to keep any secrets :-)

Raghu

5th April 2005, 04:23 PM

Raghu

5th April 2005, 09:13 PM

Q1)

I am a bit confused, if Karna's dharma was to be loyal to his friend and encourage evil, then dharma is subject individuals conception? :? :?

Q2)

This was the reason why Panchali married all of the Pandavas, After Arjuna wins Draupadi in the contest and takes her home to show his mother(kunti), Yudhistar told Kunti that he had bought a fruit(meaning draupadi), Kunti matha without realising it was a women, rather than a fruit, she told the pandavas to share it, hence they shared her.

how can this be justified?? :x :x

to make it worse, Arjuna & Bhima had other wives too, now none of the Kauravas Including Ankaraj Karna and Duriyodhana had more than one wife (well, as far as I know).

what kind of dharma is this? :x

Raghu

5th April 2005, 09:18 PM

Q3) What happend to Vikarna, the ONLY athma who opposed Duchadhana seducing Draupadi and left the palace, did he not fight the batlle, I think he did, and wantedto fight along with the pandavas

viggop

5th April 2005, 09:21 PM

viggop

5th April 2005, 09:31 PM

Some mythological stories about Draupadi

(1)One story is that in her previous janams,she was a great devotee of Lord Shiva.She does penance to Lord Shiva to get a husband.When Shiva appears before her and asks for a boon,she repeats "I want a husband" 5 times and hence she gets 5 husbands as Draupadi

One more sizzling story is that Rishi Maudgalya had a devote wife called Nalayini.This rishi was afflicted with leprosy and his face was disfigured and ugly.Once,Nalayini was serving him food and eating too.Because of leprosy,one of Rishi's finger fell into the food Nalayini was eating.Nalayini did not flinch and calmly continued eating the rice without displaying any revulsion.So much was her devotion to her husband.Pleased by this, the rishi asked his wife for a boon.She then asked the rishi to make love to her in 5 different forms and the rishi should turn himself into a handsome man(instead of having the ugly leprosy afflicted face ).The rishi accedes to her request but she is not satisfied with his love.So, the rishi finally curses her that in her next janam ,she'll have 5 husband to quench her thrist of conjugal love.

viggop

5th April 2005, 09:34 PM

Draupadi is also one of the panchakanyas(5 eternal virgins) in Hindu mythology.This boon is also said to have been granted by Lord Shiva.However many times she makes love with her 5 husbands,she'll become virgin again.

viggop

5th April 2005, 09:38 PM

Raghu
I think only erudite persons will be able to give you explanations about the dharmic aspect of these stories.
Arjuna is also supposed to have a wife in Pandya kingdom called "Alli" (Alli arjuna)

Raghu

5th April 2005, 09:38 PM

Raghu
There is one meaning behind Draupadi marrying 5 men.
It seems that a husband should possess the qualities of pancha pandavas.
That is a man should follow/uphold dharma as Yudishtra,strong as Bheema,warrior against evil like Arjuna and skilled in tools like Nakula and Sahadeva.

what ever the reason it was, it was highly disgusting, esp marrying your husband brothers (brother in laws)

P.S:- Do NOT tell this to your wife ;-)

er, what made u think I was married, just because I am talking about spiritualism, you probably labelled me as a married man with couple of teenage kids in his 40's :x :x :lol: :lol: , any way, if One is a 'Sakalakalavalavan' like me, one does not need to worry, :lol:

ok, that's enough, let us not deviate from the topic, did you know what happened to Vikarna?

viggop

5th April 2005, 09:39 PM

Atleast 1 Kaurava brother is supposed to have joined the Pandavas in the war.Do not know whether he was killed in the war or not.

Raghu

5th April 2005, 09:49 PM

Atleast 1 Kaurava brother is supposed to have joined the Pandavas in the war.Do not know whether he was killed in the war or not.

Viggop,

It would be great, if you can or some post about Vikarna.

Q 4)

What was the reason for Vidura to break his bow and not to take part in the war? :?

Surya

6th April 2005, 07:05 AM

There is one meaning behind Draupadi marrying 5 men.
It seems that a husband should possess the qualities of pancha pandavas.
That is a man should follow/uphold dharma as Yudishtra,strong as Bheema,warrior against evil like Arjuna and skilled in tools like Nakula and Sahadeva.

Viggop, What abt this?
The sons should always listen to their mothers without doubting her words. Because they say that they have a gift for her, and the mother who is busy, doesn't look, and says "Share it between the 5 of u." Which leads to the marraige of the Pandavas.

Later. 8)

Badri

6th April 2005, 09:43 AM

Q1)

I am a bit confused, if Karna's dharma was to be loyal to his friend and encourage evil, then dharma is subject individuals conception? :? :?

If you had read my post on this question earlier in this thread, Raghu, maybe it would be a little helpful? Anyway, let me try and answer the latter part of your question.

What is Dharma? Dhaarayate iti dharmaha...is the definition given for Dharma...translated literaly "That which is worn is called Dharma" - meaning that which is to be upheld.

But the interesting thing is going by the meaning that which is worn...like clothes. Although Dharma is said to be universal, it is also individual. Meaning, one cannot apply the same dharma to every situation. Just as you would wear one set of clothes to work, another set of clothes to play cricket and an entirely different set to go swimming, and a total lack while bathing, Dharma too differs depending on the situation.

Again, a man is father to his children, son to his parents, husband to his wife, brother to his sister, friend to his friends - each of these roles calls for a different dharma on his part. He has to fulfill those dharmas as appropriate. In that way, while it is not an individual's own conception of what dharma is, it does mean that there is no one dharma that has to be followed irrespective of the situation.

Then again, Vyasa gave a beautiful summarization of what Dharma, Papa and Punya (Virtue and Sin) are.

Asthadasa Puraneshu Vyasascha Vachanadwayam
Paropakara punyaya paapaya parapeedanam

Translated: The 18 puranas written by Vyasa can be condensed and understood based on 2 statements of Vyasa

a) Punya or virtue is to help others
b) Paapa or sin is to harm others

Very simple, almost black-and-white concept. If your actions harm another person or society, it is sin and therefore not dharma. If your actions bring betterment to society or individuals, then it is punya and therefore dharma.

Again, cannot apply this statement blindly. There are nuances of dharma. What may appear good may not be really good for a person in the long run. Again, what may appear bad may really be good. A doctor cutting open a man's stomach to heal him is actually doing a good thing, although one would view a murderer doing a similar thing differently.

Again, dharma decrees that for the sake of the family, an individual can be given up or harmed, for the sake of a town, a family can be destroyed, for the sake of a country, a whole town can be wiped out etc etc.

Who takes a call on these, who can be the best judge is debatable, and not something I wish to go into, but suffice it to say one's own conscience, in accordance with what has been presribed by the wise in the form of shastras or scriptures is certainly dharma.

viggop

6th April 2005, 11:25 AM

Raghu
In Mahabharatha,there is an interesting conversation between a lake spirit and Yudishtra about dharma.

Read this link about Lord Krishna's musings on Dharma

http://sai.aros.net/dharma.html

jaiganes

6th April 2005, 11:41 AM

amazingly wonderful explanation. thanks for the post viggop!!

a.ratchasi

6th April 2005, 12:02 PM

Raghu
In Mahabharatha,there is an interesting conversation between a lake spirit and Yudhistira about dharma.

This takes place when the brothers of Yudhisthira are killed one by one for disobeying the lake guarding Yaksha . For the Yaksha to grant their lives back, Yudhisthira is required to answer a list of questions put forth failing which Yudhisthira too will fall prey to the being.

viggop

6th April 2005, 12:50 PM

a.ratchasi
DO you know what was the questions put forth by that Yaksha and Yudishtra's answers to that? It is supposed to be a good tutorial on Dharma.
Please post it here.

a.ratchasi

6th April 2005, 01:21 PM

viggop, as mush as I want to, I am in the midst of clearing something which has to be done at soonest. :(

Nevertheless, a quick search online brought me to this link:
http://www.cs.memphis.edu/~ramamurt/gems/gem60.html

Below are the excerpt:

"Yudhistira knew that these could be none other than the words
of a yaksha and guessed what had happend to his brothers. He
saw a possible way of redeeming the situation. He said to the
bodiless voice: "Please ask your questions."
It asked:
What makes the sun shine every day?
Yudhistira replied: The power of Brahman.

What rescues man in danger?
Courage is man's salvation in danger.

By the study of which science does man become wise?
Not by studying any sastra does man become wise.
It is by association with the great in wisdom that he gets wisdom.

The yaksha asked: What is more nobly sustaining than the earth?
Yudhistira replied: The mother who brings up the children she
has borne is nobler and more understanding than the earth.

What is higher than the sky?
The father.

What is fleeter than the wind?
Mind.

What is more blighted than the withered straw?
A sorrow-stricken heart.

What befriends a traveller?
Learning.

Who is the friend of one who stays at home?
The wife.

Who accompanies a man in death?
Dharma. That alone accompanies the soul in its solitary journey after death.

Which is the biggest vessel?
The earth, which contains all within itself is the greatest vessel.

What is happines?
Happiness is the result of good conduct.

What is that, abandoning that man will be loved by all?
Pride-- for abandoning that man will be loved by all.

What is the loss that yields joy and not sorrow?
Anger giving it up we will no longer be subject to sorrow.

What is that, by giving up which, man becomes rich?
Desire-- getting rid of it, man becomes wealthy.

jaiganes

6th April 2005, 01:58 PM

yudhishtra's Q&A with the yaksha and Nachikethus' Q & A with yama are the most interesting and enlightening Q&As in hindu religious texts. Some say that these Q&As were not originally a part of the story but inserted by upanishad experts who wanted the essence of upanishads to permeate far and wide, while remaining immortal within the text of the great epic like Mahabharath and Ramayan.

viggop

6th April 2005, 02:29 PM

Nachiketa with Yama --- Is it in Katha Upanishad?
Sage Yagnavalkya's debate with his wife Gargi in another upanishad is also supposed to be very good.

viggop

6th April 2005, 02:47 PM

Coming to charcater of Draupadi,she appears very haughty, arrogant,proud and vengeful character.
She is born in the yagna of Draupada.The objective of the yagna was to take revenge(not noble) on Drona and both Drishtadyumna and Draupadi are born in it.

She laughs at Duryodhana when he slips and falls in Indraprastha.
She takes a vow not to plait her hair till she drinks the blood of dushashana.Hence she is also very vengeful person full of fury.

She loves Arjuna more than other husbands and does not treat them equally as Arjuna.This is supposed to be adharmic! Hence,she is the first to fall down dead on the way to Himalayas at the end.

She is much sinned against too.Arjuna loves Satyabhama(?) more than Draupadi.Yudishtra keeps her as an object in the game of dice and loses her.She is disrobed publicly.When Pandavas have to be incognito for 14 years,she is serving as a servant for some queen.

Raghu

6th April 2005, 04:46 PM

sbadri99,

thanks for your detailed exp on dharma, but I still think dharma is circumstancialy individualy based on our atma :)

pradheep

6th April 2005, 08:39 PM

Dharma is difficult to understand if we dont understand what it is meant for. Dharma is meant for us to know our essence (Atma). We all chose our own dharma.example..not speaking a lie is a dharma. Now some one can adhere to this principle, but it becomes his dharma only when we does not give it up even when his life is in danger. That way that principle that he followed becomes his dharma and that lightensup his "Individuality". Example is Harichandra who used speaking Truth as his dharma. Look at karna , for him to be loyal to his friend is dharma. Even now karna is know for that.

But ordinary people will have pricniples but when they give that up in challenging situations , it will never ripen to dharma. A principle is like a raw fruit, it ripens to dharma when the principle is not given up in any situation.

Look at the life of nayanmars and alwars. For one washerman (dobi) nayanmar every day washing clothes of a shiva devotee free of chrage as the first duty ,was his principle. It did not become a dharma until he was challenged and refused even to stake his life for his principle. Then that principle became his dharma and got enlightenment. This is why dharma always will save oneself. Dharma alone can help us to know the self.

Ordinary mortals would in the place of nayanmars would give an excuse saying "What can I do. I tried maximum to find a shiva devotee and stick on to my principle. But what to do I could nto find and so I cannot stick to to my words". Then his principle becomes a failure and also not frutify to dharma.

This is what we see in mahabharata.....each one has a principle and that is the dharma for them. That projects their strength of their individuality and attains moksha. Thus we should always stick on to one principle in life and never give it up. That alone will save us. we will meeet hardships but that is a means to test us. Alas very few only make it up. Then their principle becomes Dharma for rest of the people.

Raghu

6th April 2005, 09:58 PM

Dear Pradheep,

Welcome, thanks for posting at last.

Yes, I agree with you, Dharma is based on individual conception of atma. which may vary due to circumstances. for example, I am againts killing of any living entities that is my dharma, but if I see a tiger or a snake charging at some one, I may have to kill it to save another live, here my dharma changes according to my Consciousness(atma)

viggop

6th April 2005, 10:07 PM

Raghu
Please unveil the story behind Vidura now.:-)

viggop

6th April 2005, 10:10 PM

I liked these most among Yudhishtra's answers!

Who is the friend of one who stays at home?
The wife.

Who accompanies a man in death?
Dharma. That alone accompanies the soul in its solitary journey after death.
Remember the dog which went with Yudishtra to the heavens.

What is happines?
Happiness is the result of good conduct.

What is that, abandoning that man will be loved by all?
Pride-- for abandoning that man will be loved by all.

What is the loss that yields joy and not sorrow?
Anger giving it up we will no longer be subject to sorrow.

What is that, by giving up which, man becomes rich?
Desire-- getting rid of it, man becomes wealthy.

Pride,anger and desire!!! If only we can conquer them!!!

Sudhaama

6th April 2005, 10:40 PM

[tscii:11ce809b3d]
Mr. Pradheep has beautifully analysed the Point

And... Further.. certain clarifications are to be defined more ...which I add...

"pradheep"

//Dharma is difficult to understand if we dont understand what it is meant for.//

This Sanskrit word .. taken in all the Indian Languages including Tamil... means ..in Tamil... "ARHAM" («Èõ)... even which carries several meanings and definitions according to Tamil Dictionary and wide usage in Literature..

Sanskrit Nikandu(Dictionary) too presents several meanings... all relevant to day to day life of Mankind...with or without the faith in God.

But the most conspicuous meanings of this Word Dharma... are...

(1) Divine-Commandments ( Aandavan Kattalhai).. the Ultimate Code
(Ex: Manitha-Dharmam).

(2) Set-Law commonly applicable as a Yardstick or Basic-principle as the order of the day...(for Example "Yuga-Dharma").

(3) Specific Way of Life under specifc delicate circumstances (Aapath-Dharmam).

(4) Righteousness unharming to anybody's Best interests towards the Life-Goal. (Para-Dharmam / Supreme Will of God)

(5) Utmost Self-Discipline (Suya-Dharmam)

(6) Moral-approach of Empathy ...of Self-realisation as One in the Family, ..One amongst the Society... One within the God's Creations... and the One bound by Life-Code of Practice commonly applicable to any Creature.

//But ordinary people will have pricniples but when they give that up in challenging situations , it will never ripen to dharma. A principle is like a raw fruit, it ripens to dharma when the principle is not given up in any situation//.

Some times... one Dharma competes or Classhes with another Dharma ... culminating in a Dilemma or Embarassing Situations in practical Life of Reality. Such situations are called as . DHARMA- SANGATAM"... as have been confronted by some Historical and Puranic Characters as well as we too see in our Lives sometimes....

For example ... a Police Inspector find his Father is caught red-handed as the Criminal... where arises the clash of Principles..

... whether to carry out his official duty as an Inspector ?

.. or the Moral duty to his Father?... since...both are his Principles.

Under some such challenging circumstances ... the Heroes have decided differently... where only we get the HIGHLY VALUABLE LESSONS for our Life.

For example... the Best Character... in any Epic or Literature... for analysis.

Karna was caught in between two Dharmas... both are worthy and meaningful... but in discerning and chosing the BEST according to Situation... Karna failed...

Because Sucees of Righteousness towards everybody's Life-Goal is the the God's Will of UTMOST PRIORITY and Preferable under any and all circumstances... whether Vibheeshana, Harischandra, Lakshmana, Kumbakarna, or Meer-Jaffer.

//Look at the life of nayanmars and alwars.... principle became his dharma and got enlightenment. This is why dharma always will save oneself. Dharma alone can help us to know the self //.

While the man is placed in between his Mind's activities like...Desires Wishes Ambitions and the like on one side...and...

His Conscience Questions him on his Duties...and Commitments...and Bounds based by Laws, Principles, Disciplines, Gospels and so on based by Wisdom... raise Questions to him...

Irrespective of Dharma-Sangatam...even under day to day situations... only Dharmic principles helps him decide.

//Under such situations Ordinary mortals would in the place of nayanmars would give an excuse saying "What can I do. I tried maximum... I cannot stick to to my words". Then his principle becomes a failure and also not frutify to dharma.//

There only Man to Man differs in appklication of his Wisdom couple with Mind.

For example..two boys are taught how to use a Match-stick to make a Flame out of it. Both of them are EQUALLY wise and so have learnt well.

One boy lit several street- lamps in the village... making the whole village bright... and he studied at his home ...got educated more.

While the other... threw the match-spark on a Hut... making the whole Village burn...

Both have applied their Wisdom and Knowledge... But whereto?

There comes Dharma... to make him differentiate rather DISCERN by himself as also help others to convince him realise his FAILURE of Right Mind-application... bound by certain principles in his own interests as well as his Moral commitments in Life.

//This is what we see in mahabharata.....each one has a principle and that is the dharma for them.//

While Duryodana alone... had no principle... nor Dharma... inspite of his enormous Streengths around in support of him...

... Except engrossed by Adharmic Goal of ... Finshing his Brothers Pandavas somehow.. UNREASONABLE and unjust Wish...

... Based on Sheer JEALOUSY... and Nothing Else...

... So God interfered at every stage whenever the relevant Dignitaries in power and positions utterly failed in their DHARMAs...

... and had to show to Posterity of Humanity... that any amount of Power canbnot make an Adharmas win...

Best words of convincing answer on the Question of miserable onslaughts towards the failures and pitiasble End of Karna.. the GREAT-MAN ..
.
"¦ºï-§º¡üÚì ¸¼ý ¾£÷ì¸ §ºÃ¡¾ þ¼õ §º÷óÐ Åïºò¾¢ø Å£úó¾¡Â¼¡ ¸÷½¡.... "¿¡Ûõ"... ¯ý ÀÆ¢ ÍÁó§¾É¼¡"

("Senjoatru Kadan theerka saeraadha Idam saerndhu Vanjaththil veezhndhaayadaa Karna.... Naanum vun Pazhi sumandhaenada")[/tscii:11ce809b3d]

pradheep

6th April 2005, 10:48 PM

Dear Raghu
I dont agree that dharma keeps changing. Dharma is the same everytime and everyplace. There are four types of dharmas..... universal, individual, social and human dharma.

Now in the case you mentioned, your still follow dharma againts killing of any living entities.

But you take up the task of "protecting dharma " of a human dharma and kill a tiger or a snake charging at some one. So killing act is not the problem here but "protecting" is dharma here. That does not change any time any place. If you protected soemone in India will that change going to usa or UK or any other place. ?. You would do the same. It is the intention of the act the problem and not the act.

pradheep

6th April 2005, 10:57 PM

Dear sudhama

Very good for bringing the word "DHARMA- SANGATAM". Yes that sankatam is what helps us to know what is our real "Self". ordinary mortals would be bothered about "Me, my mine" attitude. In the example you gave, an ordinary police inspector would see a son in a criminal and fail in his decision because he is attached to his "My son, My family" attitude. A correct one would not see a son but see only a criminal who is dangerous for the soceity.

This failing of dharma is so clear now in India...the reason for all social immorals and social problems.

Mahabharata is an epic that shows how a king strayed from the dharma and instead appointed an unworthy son duryodhana as the prince. Our modern politicians are such dhrithirastras ruining the country.

Mahabharatha is the biggest literary work in the world, which is comlete in all fields. Personally clarity dawned in me after knowing mahabhratha.

geno

7th April 2005, 12:57 AM

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Guyana

7th April 2005, 02:23 AM

>>This failing of dharma is so clear now in India...the reason for all social immorals and social problems. <<

Think of when and why this failing started. Think of what deprivation does to people - what they had taken away from them - the needs of everyday survival. Those who done the taking away have long rot to the bottom and now seeking the path of "Dharma" to find themselves. Indians should not lose focus of this while they struggle for survival - they should not allow themselves to rot to the bottom. There should be compassion for such struggles of survival and seeking to hold on to dharma.

Guyana

7th April 2005, 02:24 AM

>>There should be compassion for such strugglers of survival "while" seeking to hold on to dharma.

Guyana

7th April 2005, 02:25 AM

Sorry >> Those who did the taking away have long rot to the bottom and now seeking the path of "Dharma" to find themselves.

Guyana

7th April 2005, 02:32 AM

May be a better way to say it is: There should be compassion for those who had almost everything taken away from them (those who were cheated outright)while they struggle for survival and keeping with Dharma at the same time which can sometimes result to conflicting actions which further results to social immorals and social problems.

Sudhaama

7th April 2005, 05:50 AM

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Mr. Geno,

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[/tscii:2d00d23eef]

Sudhaama

7th April 2005, 08:55 AM

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a.ratchasi

7th April 2005, 10:06 AM

These are some the of Q&As between Yudhisthira and the Yaksha that kept me of interest when I first read it:

What is more numerous than grass?
The thoughts that arise in the mind of man are more

The best of all things that are praised. What is it?
The most praiseworthy thing is skill

The most valuable of all possessions?
Knowledge

What is it, controlling which will lead to no regret?
The mind, when controlled, leads to no regret

What is that, when renounced makes on agreeable?
Pride

What is true restraint?
The restraint of one's mind

What is real ablution?
Washing the mind of all impurities

viggop

7th April 2005, 11:25 AM

Why are some posts not displayed properly?

Raghu
What is the story of Vidura you were mentioning? Please post it here when you have time.Thanks

Raghu

7th April 2005, 02:32 PM

Dear Pradheep

Some times... one Dharma competes or Classhes with another Dharma ... culminating in a Dilemma or Embarassing Situations in practical Life of Reality. Such situations are called as . DHARMA- SANGATAM"... as have been confronted by some Historical and Puranic Characters as well as we too see in our Lives sometimes....

For example ... a Police Inspector find his Father is caught red-handed as the Criminal... where arises the clash of Principles..

... whether to carry out his official duty as an Inspector ?

.. or the Moral duty to his Father?... since...both are his Principles.

Under some such challenging circumstances ... the Heroes have decided differently... where only we get the HIGHLY VALUABLE LESSONS for our Life.

For example... the Best Character... in any Epic or Literature... for analysis.

Karna was caught in between two Dharmas... both are worthy and meaningful... but in discerning and chosing the BEST according to Situation... Karna failed...

Look at Sudhamaa's example, is it not the similar example as I have given, doesn't it mean Dharma can be challenged according to situation at times, like sudhamaa sir explained this is called in tamil Dharma Sankatam.

please post your view on Dharma Sankadam ?

Raghu

7th April 2005, 02:37 PM

Dear Viggop,

Vidur had a bow which can destroy the universe, which was granted to him by the supreme personality of god head Maha Iswar(Lord Shiva),similar to Shiva thanusu in Ramayna, which lord Rama broke to mary godess Sita. but Lord krishna played some trick, so that he vowed not to fight the battle, some one please correct me if I am wrong.

and while the pandavas were away for their vana vasa Lady Kunti stayed with Vidura, and Lord Krishna stayed at Vidura's cottage when he went as a messenger to Dhuriyodhana.

Raghu

7th April 2005, 02:39 PM

Dear all

Please Please do not post in thamizh, as many of us forbiden to dwonload tamil fonts, due to fire wall restrictions on our networks.

viggop

7th April 2005, 03:21 PM

I thought Kunti went along with the Pandavas in the forest.It is there she asks them to share Draupadi.
Vidura was a great devotee of Lord Krishna

He is supposed to have given the banana peel instead of banana to Krishna when praying but the Lord accepted it gladly because of his devotion.Similar ,one Nayanmar was throwing stones at the lingam deeply absorbed in Bhakthi thinking them to be flowers but shiva gladly accepts it.In Kalahasthi,the hunter nayanmar,kannappa nayanar, offers pork to the Lingam which is accepted by the lord much to the anger of the priest.

Is not Vidura called as Sanjaya? He narrates the entire war to Dhiritharashtra by seeing thru Gnana Kann.

7th April 2005, 03:31 PM

Dear Viggop,

Vidur had a bow which can destroy the universe, which was granted to him by the supreme personality of god head Maha Iswar(Lord Shiva),similar to Shiva thanusu in Ramayna, which lord Rama broke to mary godess Sita. but Lord krishna played some trick, so that he vowed not to fight the battle, some one please correct me if I am wrong..

Vidhur did have this bow. But Krishna had nothing to do with him not fighting. He has no prejudce and is impartial and sees the pandavas and Kauravas as the same. He didnt want them to fight and hence wouldnt side anybody. After failing to convince Duryodhana not to go into war, he breaks his bow at the darbar, announcing that he will not side anybody.

viggop

7th April 2005, 03:35 PM

Sudhaama
Excellent post on why Karnan had to be defeated and destroyed.The higher cause of dharma precedes all individuals. :D

7th April 2005, 03:36 PM

I thought Kunti went along with the Pandavas in the forest.It is there she asks them to share Draupadi.
Vidura was a great devotee of Lord Krishna

The draupadi story happened much earlier. This was when they were accomodated in the "arakku mAligai" in deceit where they was an attempt to kill them.

Is not Vidura called as Sanjaya? He narrates the entire war to Dhiritharashtra by seeing thru Gnana Kann.

Sanjaya is Dhritharashtra's charioteer. He was a yogin who visualised the entire war using his gnana kann and narrated it to the king.

Vidhura is Dhridhrashtra's half brother.

Raghu

7th April 2005, 03:54 PM

Thanks TS for your info, but I am Sure Maha Iswar granted a boon to Vidura in the form of a Bow.

("Senjoatru Kadan theerka saeraadha Idam saerndhu Vanjaththil veezhndhaayadaa Karna.... Naanum vun Pazhi sumandhaenada")

thanks sudhama sir for remainding me this, greatly sung by Dr.S.Govinderajan in the thamizh film karna, this song and film still brings tears in my eyes as and when I recall them, greatest clasic film in Thamizh , thanks to awsome acting prows of the legendary greatest actor Dr. Shivaji Ganeshan :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

7th April 2005, 03:59 PM

Thanks TS for your info, but I am Sure Maha Iswar granted a boon to Vidura in the form of a Bow.

Thats what i said. he did have a bow which he destroyed when the war was confirmed.

jaiganes

7th April 2005, 04:25 PM

ts!
Shri Krishna did play a trick on vidhura to make him break the bow. Lord krishna comes to hasthinapur to negotiate a settlement between Pandavas and the Kauravas. Duryodhan rejects the peace offer and says that Pandavas have violated the agreement of being in exile and incognito as they were exposed in The kingdom of virat when Arjuna came out of hiding and fought the Kauravas to save Uttara kumara, the prince of Virata and hence they have to spend 12 more years in exile. But Lord krishna says that is not so. The ensuing peace deal fails and duryodhan says that he will not give even 5 pin head space of land to the pandavaas. War is declared as the only way out. Shri Krishna knows that if Vidhura participates in the war, then Pandavas will lose as Vidhura is none but the Dharma raja in human form. Hence he plays a trick by asking Vidhura for hosting him in Hastinapur and avoids the palace of Kauravas or Bhishma. This creates suspicion in the mind of Duryodhan and the next day when war plans are being done, he insults Vidhura by saying "Paksham Paandavar pakkam, batchanam Kauravar pakkam" meaning that he eats Kaurava's food but is loyal to Pandavas. This enrages Vidhura who takes an oath that he will never participate in another war for the prince of hastinapur and breaks the bow in a fit of rage. Krishna plays a similar trick on Aswathama and sows seeds of suspicion in the minds of Duryodhana and Karna which prompts Aswathama to take an oath that he will not participate the war as long as Karna is alive. The trick he plays is that he(shri krishna) drops a jewel and asks Aswathama to bow and take it, Duryodhana and Karna who see this think Aswathama has sold himself to the pandavas and karna insults him for this.

Raghu

7th April 2005, 04:50 PM

viggop

7th April 2005, 05:16 PM

I thought Ashwathama was born with the jewel on his head.It is embedded into his body.

Raghu

7th April 2005, 05:23 PM

I thought Ashwathama was born with the jewel on his head.It is embedded into his body.

Not sure about that :?

and thanks for the link about the Mahabharth quiz, I got 18/25

jaiganes

7th April 2005, 08:31 PM

hey!
slight misunderstanding. what krishna drops is his modhiram or ring. Jewel is something he is born with and in the last day of the war, shri krishnaa takes that jewel away from him as a punishment for his unjust practices in the war (by killing children of the pandavaas when they are asleep).

Raghu

7th April 2005, 08:50 PM

Raghu

7th April 2005, 09:21 PM

7th April 2005, 09:35 PM

viggop

7th April 2005, 09:38 PM

The story I know is different.It is because of Asura Surapadman.He'll get a boon along with his 2 brothers that only shakthi from Shiva can destroy them.After that,he'll be a tyrant and kill all good people, torture rishis,disturn their yagna etc.So, the Devas will not know what to do.They need a shakthi of Shiva to destroy him.But,Shiva will be interested in meditation and will never be interested in procreation.He is supposed to be the highest yogi.

Then,the Gods will decide that Manmadhan is to be used to generate feeling of Kama in Lord Shiva towards Parvathi so that they can bring forth a child(shakthi of Shiva) to kill surapadman.I think Manmadhan will disturb Shiva's meditation with his arrows of love.
Angered by this,Shiva will burn him to ashes but on Rathi's pleading,he'll say that she'll appear only to her eyes in a beautiful form.
Anyway,the arrows of Manmathan will succeed and Shiva will unite with his consort Parvathi and hence Murugan/Karthikeya is born.He'll later destroy Surapadman as commander of Deva army.

7th April 2005, 09:43 PM

Dear all,

Can somebody tell me, why Lord of Lords 'Maha Iswar' burnt 'Manamadhan' to ashes, was it a trick by Lord Krishna as well.

While Lord Shiva was meditating, Manmadha was performing a lustful dance to attract rathi and distract Lord Shiva, Maha Iswar got annoyed with his illicit act and burnt him to ashes, but one his temper cooled down, he granted a boon to Rathi, that her husband Manmadha will re-incarnate as some one(who) in some Yuga (was it Dwapara Yuga)??

Unable to bear Taraka's harassment, sages and angels, all pious persons and Goddess Earth herself, went to Brahma and prayed for help.

Brahma said, "It is impossible for me to kill Taraka. Even Hari and Hara Cannot do it. He can be killed only by a son of Hara. If Hara has to get a son, he must marry Parvati. He is now, in penance. Parvati goes to him every day to attend upon him. But Shiva does not even open his eyes and see her. So how can this marriage come about?

Again the angels met in conclave. They were now engaged in making Shiva stop his meditation and marry Parvati. So they sent Brihaspati to Kusumapura to fetch Manmatha. Manmatha went to them with his sugarcane bow and flowery arrows along with his consort Ratidevi, and asked them, "What do you want me to do? Please tell me."

"Lord Kama," Indra replied, "Now you have to confer a great benefit on the world. Taraka's wickedness has become intolerable. The one to kill him is Shiva's son, who is not yet born. But Shiva has not ended his penance. Without ending it his marriage cannot take place. Parvati who is to be his wife is near him but Shiva does not so much as look at her. Now he must be made to fall in love with Parvati. And that, only you can do."

Kama realized the importance of his role. He now thought of aiming his floral arrow at Shiva and thereby ending his tapas. Even if he had to lay down his life in this venture, he would never mind. Would he not have done a great deed for the welfare of the world? So thinking, Kama arrived with Rati at Shiva's penance-grove.

Just at that time Parvati had also come as usual with fruits and flowers to worship Shiva. Her friends were also there. Parvati stood with folded hands singing in praise of Shiva. Pleased with her devotion and delighted with her sweet voice, Shiva just for a moment stopped his meditation and looked at her once. Kama decided that was the most opportune moment and got ready to make Shiva fall in love with Parvati. Unafraid of the eye of fire on Shiva's forehead, he shot five of his arrows of flowers at his heart. Shiva's tapas were broken.

This made Shiva terribly angry. He opened the fiery eye on his forehead. With a frightening noise a fierce blazing flame burst forth. It seemed the fire of final destruction had struck the body of Kama. As he stood, he was reduced to ashes. Shiva, smearing his body with the same ash, disappeared.

viggop

7th April 2005, 09:50 PM

Kripi and Kripacharya are brother and sister.They are said to be born out of the reeds(kripa means reed in sanskrit)

Ashwathama is also said to be son of Lord Shiva too.There is a mythological story about this but it is quite erotic.(as other Hindu mythology stories)

viggop

7th April 2005, 09:59 PM

TS
As I have posted earlier about Ashwathama,
Krishna curses him to be a chiranjeevi

Raghu

8th April 2005, 01:40 PM

yes, Lord Krishna sends bhim anna to fetch it!

Arjuna and Krishna set out in pursuit of Aswaththama. They find him eventually and before he could be captured, he takes a blade of grass and sends it to abort Abhimanyu's wife's foetus by using the brahmastra. The foetus gets saved by the grace of Krishna.

Arjuna grabs Aswathama and brings him before Draupadi, who lost all her sons to his treachery. Draupadi says,

"Arjuna, please release Aswatthama forthwith.Dronacharya was your guru. He taught you everythingyou have known in archery. He loved you as a father might love a son. Aswatthama thus is like a brother to you. When Drona died, his wife Kripi, did not join her lord in the funeral fire because her son, this Aswatthama who stands now before us, was still alive. If you kill him now in this moment, Kripi will suffer the pain too of losing her only child. I do not wish upon Kripi the pain I as a mother have myself suffered in the loss of my children... Let this pain remain with me and let Aswatthama go.. let him go his way, for he has suffered both retribution and humiliation enough. Please release him!".

She asks him to shave Aswaththama's hair and take the gem off his head for in old days, one is considered to be dead if shaven by ones enemy. Arjuna Tonsures Aswaththama and takes the gem from his head and gives it to Krishna. Aswathama travels into the himalayas to do tapas.

Dear TS,

what I meant was, Lord Krishna sends Bhim anna to fetch the stone from his head and he does, not Arjuna (This was shown on Lord Krishna Series by Ramanad Sagar), once Druapadi finds all five of her sons killed by Aswathama, it was Bhima who get aggresive and runs after Aswathama, followed by Yudishtra and Arjuna, but Lord Krishna runs behind Bhima, on Arjuna chariot, but this time, Arjuna is riding the chariot !, he ctach up on bhima, but by that time Aswatham has already projected the bhrama asthira, so to retaliate Arjuna also projects the bhrama asthira, but lord Krsihna asks bhrama to disable it, he does, then lord Krishna curses Aswathama that he will be a Chiranjeeve and tellms Bhima to fetch the stone from Aswathama

Raghu

8th April 2005, 01:47 PM

Dear Viggop & TS,

I remember the story now, both of you are correct regarding Maha Iswar burning Manmadha

Viggop, pls reply to my PM, thanks

viggop

8th April 2005, 06:36 PM

Looking at TS story,even though Draupadi lets go off Ashwathama ,she wants to humilate him by shaving his head.

What about the character of Kunti devi in Mahabharatha?

She is a very playful as a girl who misuses the mantra given to her by Vyasa(?) and loses her virginity even before marriage.She too gets a boon to become a permanent kanya(another one of the panchakanyas)

Also,she disposes of baby Karna in a casket in the river and in the end of the war,she asks Karna to spare Arjuna's life by getting a promise to use Naga Asthram only once.This shows impartiality being a mother.

To her credit,she takes care of Nakula and Sahadeva as her own sons(children of Pandu and Madri) and undergoes lot of suffering along with the Pandavas even though born as a princess.After the war,she accompanies Dhiritharastra and Gandhari and lives with them in the forest serving them as both cannot see.
I think she jumps into the flame and dies following Gandhari.

Is there any other interesting stories in Mahabharatha concerning Kunti?

Raghu

8th April 2005, 07:16 PM

This shows impartiality being a mother.

Oh yes, so true! :x :( :cry:

Raghu

8th April 2005, 07:20 PM

Q1) How did Maharajah Pandu die?

Q2) Did he had any brothers or sisters except, dhirithiratchasa

Raghu

8th April 2005, 07:26 PM

Q3) What was the reason Balaram anna for not participating in the war?

Once Balaram Anna was going to use his Plough ayudha, againts some demon, which was suppose to destroy the entire universe, but his younger brother Lord Krishna stops that, why was Balaram Anna so angry, I just can not remember the situation?

viggop

8th April 2005, 08:00 PM

Q1) How did Maharajah Pandu die?
=================================

Pandu is cursed by a rishi for accidentally shooting an arrow on the rishi while the rishi was in a deer form.
The deer was making love to another deer while pandu shoots an arrow at it.the rishi ,turns himself into human form and curses that Pandu will die if he ever consummates a marriage.
So,Pandu cannot unite with either Kunti or Madri.So, he asks Kunti to use the special Mantra given to her by Vyasa muni and hence Yudishtra,Bhima and Arjuna are born from different deities.

But,now Madri does not have any child of her own.So,Pandu wants to consummate the marriage even though he knows that he'll die if he does it.Madri tries to talk him out of it but he insists.He dies immediately.After Nakula and Sahadeva are born,Madri throws herself into the fire for being responsible for her husbands death.

viggop

8th April 2005, 08:09 PM

Q2) As far as I know,Pandu had no brothers/sisters apart from Dhirtharashtra. He is afflicted with albino disease.

Raghu

8th April 2005, 08:17 PM

viggop

8th April 2005, 08:37 PM

Raghu

8th April 2005, 08:46 PM

Raghu
Also,most of the stories sound irrational and does not suit the moral values of this time.Maybe,these stories were conceptualised when the concept of marriage(1 man and 1 wife) was not yet concrete.
Eroticism is very rampant in mythology of all old cultures like Greek,Roman,Indian,Chinese,Arab etc.
But,let us not digress from Mahabharatha in this thread.

I agree with you, but there was one SOLID example of 1 Man to 1 Women concept before the mahabharath, yes I am indeed talking about Lord Rama and Godess Sita during Ramayaa in Satya Yuga, Prior to Dwapara Yuga Mahabharath

Raghu

8th April 2005, 08:50 PM

Viggop,

Did you know why Balram anna did not take part in the fight, as far as i know, prior to battle, Duriyodhana and Shakuni mama tried to deceive Balram anna into the kaurava army, what went wrong? :?

Was it not Balram anna who taught Mace fighting skills to Bhima and Duriyodhana?

Surya

9th April 2005, 12:11 AM

///Satya Yuga///
Ragu,
Is that another name for Thretha Yugham? I didn't know that. :)

Sudhaama

9th April 2005, 01:02 AM

Dear Friends,

I am confused to find the trend of touching various points here and there...

...totally unconnected to each other... raising questions... on all... at a time.

Such a trend... will it be interesting to the Reader?

... or to anybody any knowledgeable person to post his reply.?

I suggest... please take up... one by one.

Common to all the Questions raised here in general, .. I put forth here the initial clarifications which can help you to pick up the threads further.

(1) Mahabharatha is named as "PANCHAMO-VEDA".. meaning the Fifth-Veda... supplementary to Four Vedas. Whatever was felt by God as left over in the Vedas... have been set right here by the dint of Preachings and Episodes.... as final clarifications.

(2) Only in that Divine Spirit... Four more Needhi-Sasthras or Gospels... have emanated in Mahabharatha.... ..They are..

(a) Bhagawad-Geetha..
(b) Vishnu- Saharsranama .
(c) Yaksha-Prasna
(d) Vidhura-Needhi.

(3) This is the only Awathaara where the God takes three Awathaaras (Parasurama, Balarama and Krishna) simultaneously... each in a different approach... but towards one common Goal

(4) At some stages we find the clash between these Awatharas of same God Himself... by which we get several Morals of Pattimanram type.

- Parasuramas Approach was.. to make the Kings .. the Rulers REALISE.. their responsibility to govern the country and perform towards the welfare of the People... instead of fighting for their ownership rights on the spur of Avariciousness and Selfishness ... ignoring their fundamental duty to the people... prior to claiming their personal rights..

- Balarama's approach was entirely based on TRUTH... the Theoretical- Approach. on Life.... He was supporting Duryodana and Kauravas side in general... advocating for peaceful settlement without resorting to war between brothers.

- Krishna's Approach... was .. more than the dubious TRUTH....

... but REALITY is more Important and the Practical approach in Life...

So to say nobody should exploit others based on dubious Truth or Laws only... but based on Reality and Empathy... the Moral-approach in Life... imagining oneself in the other man's position.

Thus the whole Story of Mahabharatha is the Drama of Clash between these three IDEALS... we normally see in our day to day Life.

... enacted by different characters and events webbed and woven as a net of Pros and Cons... and even Inconsistencies at some stages.

(5) Balarama tries His best ... taking advantage of His Voice with Kauravas ... towards an amicable settlement... by persuading Kauravas to render justice to their brothers Pandavas. But He failed.

And as a next step He persuades Pandavas seeking the support of His brother Krishna.... wherein Krishna vehemently opposes Balarama and differs with the idea of yielding to the wicked peoples pressure-tactics... eventually resulting in oppression of Righteousness... exploiting their sincere adherence to Peaceful measures in principle....

which is the Reality ... to be based upon in Life-approach.... being the Practical one contrary to Balarama's approach... the Theoretical one.

Fed up with His failure to convince either sides... Balarama abruptly leaves the country for Theertha-Yaathra... vowing not to be a party for any side during war.

He returns on the last day of the War... and along with Krishna watches the Fight between Bheema and Duryodana in the Battlefield..

When Krishna Himself hints to Bheema to knock at Duryodanas thigh... contrary to Stipulations.. the first person to object to such violation was Balarama...

... which leads to serious arguments between these two Awatharas of one and the same God.

Finally Balarama agrees in Principle... that in the detiorating stages of Time... when Evil forces tries to dominate over Righteousness...

when wicked people come to Power.. they take advantage of Idealogies to their favour

.. and try to exploit the Righteous people making them as innocent victims ...

Under such circumstances... the factor of REALITY (Yathaarththam) should be taken as the Basis for our Decisions....

...which only can ensure the Ultimate Win of Maha-Sathyam...

... the Victory of Righteousness.... over the Evil-powers

geno

9th April 2005, 08:53 AM

Sudhaama,

I posted that kannadhasan lyrics since you had changed the last line of "vanjagan kaNNanadA" to "un pazhi koNdEnadA" - in ur preceding post!

I did not intend to participate in the "dharma" discourse here!

A few of my observations :

1. Nakula and Sahadeva - are the sons born to "Ashwin twins" and NOT to Madri & Pandu as suggested here.

Kunti teaches Madri the "secret mantra" to copulate with deities as pandu cannot copulate with his wives normally due to the curse

2. Vidhura the younger brother to dhritarashtra and Pandu, was also born to "Vyasa" just like his elder brothers, but his mother was not one of royal lineage but a maid-servant in the court of Ambika and ambalika - the mothers and dhritarashtra and pandu.

Satyavathi, the mother of Vyasa (whom she "begot" thru sage parasara during one of the boat sojourns that the sage undertook, with her being the boatwaman as she was a fisherwoman - even her antecedants too are further mired in more exotic myths - with the "seeds" of a passing by angel, "dropping" his seed on seeing the fisherwoman foster mom of satyavathi, which falls into the river where a fish eats that "seed" and thru which "satyavathi" is born!!) - she asks vyasa to "copulate" with ambika and ambalika - as her sons thur Santhanu maharaja - die leaving their wives widowed and the kingdom heirless.

2. Vyasa, who till that time has lived in the forest as a "wilderness" man with all his locks and "Dark complexion"(remember his original name is "Krishna Dvaipyana", meaning the dark child or black child born in an island) - when he arrives at his "mothers' orders to Ambika and ambalika's anthappuram - makes them terrified.

Ambika - after many "unsuccessful attempts' closes her eyes when vyasa copulates with her - and so her son "Dhritarashtra" is born blind!

Ambalika is very terrified when she sees vyasa and so she masks her Maid-servant to pose as her, when Vyasa arrives in her zenana!

The maid-servant(of low caste) is not afraid of Vyasa, and so she is at peace with him ; Vyasa is pleased with her and so due to their copulation - "Vidura" a KNowledgeable and healthy child is born!

When ambalika's attempt to evade Vyasa is known to satyavathi - she again senda Vyasa to her; Ambalika - shivers and shudders at the "exotic"ness of Vyasa when he takes her - and so her son "Pandu" is born with palpitations

3. Thus "Vidura" is the most healthy child of the 3 - who is also teh most knowledgeable.

Krishna uses this "Shudra"ness of "Vidhura" - in a very subtle way to create doubt about him, thru the doubts of him being corrupt.

My personal opinion about the Mahabharatha's intent is - it was used by the vedic religion to "establish" the "Varunashrama dharma" as an accepted form of society.

"Varna" is mentioned even in the original "Samhitas" and all along has been the intention of Vedic religion.

Bharata was the most effective tool to "preach" it and expand its reach.

That seems to be the underlying theme of mahabharatha - over riding all other "dharmas".

If at all it had any over-arching or impkicit intentions about a just society - it simply failed to evoke that aspect in the next 2 millennia of indian society!

However the more obvious and explicit intent of Mahabharatha has been a resounding success! :)

geno

9th April 2005, 09:27 AM

Regarding Karna's role:

1. Kunti - when her sons returned from Draupadi's Swayamvaram, declared even without turning and lloking at what they have brought, that they "her sons" should share whatever they have
b(r)ought, she aided in the distorting of "dharma"!

And worse, her sons listening to her mom's "order" treated Draupadi as if she is a "product" to be shared - at that very moment - took off all "Human-ness" away from her.

That day, "Draupadi"s womanhood was completely and eternally violated.

2. Even according to Kunti, "her sons" should share what ever they had brought then. So, "technically" Karnan - being Kunti's son, just like his brothers, has a rightful share over Draupadi.

3. When thes shameless Pandavas, used thier wife draupadi as a "product" to bet on - they violated her womanhood for the second time

4. Pandavas "knew" -even at the time of betting - that if they lose the bet - then it simply means - Draupadi becomes the "property" of the Kauravas, or in other words - another addition into their Harem.

5. Karna's insult to draupadi in the court simply equals his brothers' Pandavas insult to draupadi's womanhood!

According to that situation - Draupadi has NONE else to blame but Pandavas.

6. Dhuryodhana was the son of the reigning King, and so according to the then prevailing norms - there was nothing wrong in him aspiring to be the king.

7. The actual disrobing of Draupadi in the court - is the most ethically flawed thing (according to the story flow)

8. What would have Draupadi done or Krishna even? - if Kauravas simply inducted her into their court harems without much ado of these disrobing?

At best - she could have been an "un willing" inmate in the zenana prison of the Kauravas - as Pandavas would have left the court with their heads hanging!

9. If someone wants to argue - that it was illogical that Pandavas bet Draupadi AFTER they lose THEMSELVES in the bet - since WHen Draupadi Married Arjuna in the swayamvaram - she gave her consent ONLY to be Arjuna's wife - and NOT the wife for all 5 pandavas!

If that "Kunti Logic" is right - then this Kaurava (or shaguni Logic) too should be "technically" permitted in favor of Kauravas.

10. The moment - those shameless Pandavas bet Draupadi - they Lost the entire "Dharma" game!

From that moment on, it was NOT "dharma" but Krishna who is navigating Mahabharatha! :)

Querida

9th April 2005, 09:59 AM

thanx Geno and Sudhamma sirs for taking the time to rewrite all that in english...appreciate it :D

viggop

9th April 2005, 11:07 AM

Geno
I agree with you that Krishna ,being the supreme Lord,manipulates everyone of his pawns carefully in the Mahabharatha.He is the suthadari,the controller of everything and the actions and reaction too comes from HIM only.He is both the cause and the effect.As he shows in in his Vishwaroopa before the war to Arjuna,everything in the Universe resides inside him.Arjuna sees himself,the entire battlefields,all his cousins,all the army men within Krishna.If Krishna had wanted,there would have been no war,no ego,no jealousy at all. HE could have stopped everything!!! But, he does not do so.He wants to teach the dharma,karmic effect etc to human beings.So,he manipulates everything which will ultimately lead to destruction of adharma.

Regarding social implications of Mahabharatha,you can open a separate topic for it.Let us discuss only the story aspects of the Mahabharatha here. ;-)

geno

9th April 2005, 01:38 PM

viggop,

I wasn't trying to start a socio-political discussion based on the M.Bharatha!

As i saw some of the "story details" were missing i was tempted to "fill it up"! :)

geno

9th April 2005, 01:56 PM

Querida,

Thanks! But You can read "thamizh fonts" here on the hub, WITHOUT having to download any fonts to your system!

Link :

http://www.suratha.com/reader.htm

Go there and copy & paste - the post which looks "jumbled up" for you (that is the post(s) in thamizh) from here - in the upper part of the box there.

Press the Radio button denoted as "TSC" and in the lower part of that box - you would get the properly converted thamihz text!

You NEED NOT download any font - and you wont run into Firewall problems if you use this method!

Instead of curbing thamizh posts here - i urge friends to make use of ways like these - to overcome those difficulties - which are AVAILABLE for FREE - on the net!

Thanks! :)

Sudhaama

9th April 2005, 05:49 PM

Yes. Radically I agree with Mr. Geno..... We want you to enjoy reading in Thamizh... the Growth of which is the main scope of this Forum..

I am repeating the same Question what Mahakavi Bharathi asked...

" Why should you discuss in English... while you all are Thamizhars... having the best opportunity to discuss the enjoyment of the beautiful language Thamilzh...

...see does any Englishmen converse in any other language amongst them...similar to Chinese... Japanese.. or French or anybody in the World... except you the blessed Tamilian... be Thamizhan an not Tamilian anymore.... Let our Great THamizh...Spread wider and wider over the world... Even the Strangers let learn and enjoy our Sweet Classical Language of Global Standard.

... Dear Friends...we say in a healthy spirit...Kindly think over... why we should not feel free to say in a language we feel better free and more expressive as English the best Language for discussing Science... Thamizh is theBest means of communication to discuss on Indian Culture and Religions... amongst THamizhars...

... Non-Tamilians also let enjoy outlook ... is it not secondary... to our freedom of mutual free-means..?

.. so to say... to discuss within our family.. should we resort to another language... just for the sake of convenience of another ?

Kindly think awhile... why Mr. Geno and myself should take the trouble of typing in Thamizh? ...

... while typing it in the English fonts is EASIER for us... ?

We are Not the Linguistic- fanatics...but thinking in the healthy angle of advancement of our language... the "no-way inferior one"... for this purpose.?

Why not we all enjoy conversing in our Language better-suited for the purpose ?

Is it so difficult fo you to make it possible to even READ?

jaiganes

11th April 2005, 11:20 AM

Geno!
great post!
The question od draupadi and pandavaas has been a asked many times and many learned scholars have tried to give explanations, most of them unsatisfactory. Some have tried to hide this behind the shard of symbolism and alternative meanings to this incident. And your contention of Mahabharatha being used to establish the social segeregation is indeed true. There is an incident in Hastinapur court when Duryodhan and Dharmaputra (or yudhishtra) are asked a question to ascertain who is fit to rule the land. The question is what should be the punishment for murder, if it is committed by a Brahman and if it is committed by a low caste "shudra". yudhistra replied that the low caste person committing murder should be executed, while the Brahman should be let off with a simpler and less painful punishment. Duryodhana contradicts and says that the Brahman or a kshatriya committing an offence must be punished more severely as they were fully aware of the cause and effects of a sin and still went ahead. This argument is rejected and Duryodhana is made to 'eat a humble pie' in the court in front of all learned men like Bhishma and Vidhura. Whatever be the symbolisms that Mahabharatha conceals within it, it is an epic which reinforced caste system in the Indian psyche in a profound way. The only good thing about the epic is that it is a true reflection of whatever times it is representing and doesn't try to defend it in any manner. The issue is however when handful of scholars(?) are working overtime to justify many passages of Mahabharatha which were acceptable in its times but simply irrelevant today.

Badri

11th April 2005, 11:35 AM

Jaiganes said
There is an incident in Hastinapur court when Duryodhan and Dharmaputra (or yudhishtra) are asked a question to ascertain who is fit to rule the land.

That is strange! Haven't heard of that one.

But according to Manu's code of laws, the brahmin is to be punished more severly for the same reasons as pointed out by Duryodhana...it is part of Manu Dharma! Maybe things had undergone a great change by the time of the Mahabharatha

viggop

11th April 2005, 12:15 PM

Guys
If you want to discuss social implications of Mahabharatha,please open a separate thread.Let us keep this one to stories in it,discussion about the characters and philosophical meanings etc.
Thanks everyone for your understanding.

Raghu

11th April 2005, 01:47 PM

///Satya Yuga///
Ragu,
Is that another name for Thretha Yugham? I didn't know that. :)

I think so :? , BTW, Unga Avatar Super pa :wink:

Raghu

11th April 2005, 02:57 PM

Dear Sudhama sir

If, as you say Mahabhratham was the fifth veda, was Ramayana the 4th veda, like you have said, Mahabhratham had 3 avatars of Lord Vishnu (Lord Krishna, Balaram and Parasuram) during these Dwapara Yuga period, I heard Maha Iswar took avatar as the Pandavas, is that true? Prior to this during the Satya Yuga Lord Vishnu incarnated as Lord Rama and Lakshman, so was Ramayana the 4th Veda?

Prior to both of these Lord Vishnu incarnated as many entities, like

1. Koorva
2. Macha
3.Narashima
4. as a Bhramin (I forgot his name)
5. Rama
6. Laksham
7. Krishna
8. Balrma
9.Parasuram
10. Kalki avatar yet to happen in Kali Yuga

is my order correct, if not please enlighten me

Dear Geno Ji

Excellent points, esp regarding rights of women during that era. Pandavas first adharma was disgustingly sharing a women with 5 brothers :x , then gambling their wife :x (this shows how addiction/blind pride and stupidity can lead one to hell), but in the war pandavas used many adharma tactics win over the kauravas, like killing the greatest warriors like Karna, Bhishma pitamah, Guru Dronacharya,Karna's son, while on the other hand Kaurava's only adharma tactic was the killing of the great warrior abhimanyu, Karna together with Dronacharya performed this illicit act.

Then comes the aswathama illicit act, I feel Aswathama's act had personal reasons (like Killing of father, dronacharya, and the disliking of the pandavas from long ago).

Raghu

11th April 2005, 03:06 PM

(2) Only in that Divine Spirit... Four more Needhi-Sasthras or Gospels... have emanated in Mahabharatha.... ..They are..

(a) Bhagawad-Geetha..
(b) Vishnu- Saharsranama .
(c) Yaksha-Prasna
(d) Vidhura-Needhi.

Where does Shrimad Bhaghavatam comes in your list, according to His Divine Grace, Sripala Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhuda, Shrimad Bhghavtam was scripted during the Mahabharatham as well, though I don't know the difference between Bhahavad Gita and Shrimad Bhaghavatham

Sudhaama

12th April 2005, 12:23 AM

[tscii:a4fb407ca9]
Dear Mr. Raghu,

I will reply to you tomorrow. Please bear with me.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Dear Mr. Geno,

Many Thanks for your wealthy and interesting post... giving me an opportunity to bring out the unknown or less-known or misconceived notions... even amongst the Vedic-believers...!!!...

Mahabharatham is indeed the Great Unparallel Epic of the world being the Eternal-Lesson for the Human-Society universally ... irrespective of ones Religion or some such faith.

And even on such an authentic Gospel enacted as a Drama... even the Vedic-Believers, having Religious- Faith... being Theists are raising questions and doubts

... there is no wonder in You... questioning the Rudimentary factors of the Propriety of this Epic Mahabharatha itself ..... .

In fact ..on each and every line or even word on your postings I have a lot to speak of.... because you have misunderstood them.....

But no doubt your questions are quite SENSIBLE... exhibiting your sharp Wisdom... I appreciate... my dear Geno.

After Others and I complete answering all your Volley of Questions raised so far..

.... please continue such questions further too...

Here are my Replies to your Queries...

//"Vidura" is the most healthy child of the 3 - who is also teh most knowledgeable.//

Yes... in every way by Physical-strength as an Invincible warrior, as well as of High-Wisdom (Vidhura-Neethi .. considered one of the Gospels... a part of Mahabharatha was made by him)

According to Mahabharatha... Vidhura was the incarnation of "Yama" (Dharma-raja)... who had to take birth as a Human-being facing all undue blames ... insults and shame...due to a curse on him by a Rishi who considered the Judgement rendered to him... (conviction for a pittance of fault of paltry worth... caused due to boyish ignorance in a playful attitude) was highly unfair, unjust

Accordingly Vidhura.... another character in Mahabharatha pitiably suffers.

// Krishna uses this "Shudra"ness of "Vidhura" - in a very subtle way to create doubt about him, thru the doubts of him being corrupt.//

No. .. Shudraness has nothing to do here. Even Krishna was a Shudra.... being a Yadava. Nor Krishna played any cunning game based on Caste-feelings...anywhere at any time. But the Kings, including Duryodana had such a sick-mind very much... so he totally ignored Vidhura's advices at several times. . In fact Krishna was dead-against such discriminations. He has never encouraged nor advocated in favour of any disparity amongst the Human-beings on the basis of birth... in any manner.

Indeed Krishna showed his impartiality irrespective of caste or Status... his sincere reciprocation of true-love from any corner.... by this rare gesture.

Krishna did not need Vidhura in any manner either as Friend or Enemy in the Warfield.

Infact Krishna wanted to save him from his delicate position as of Balarama his Brother... However He did not manipulate or perform any machinisation from behind with nefarious motive.. but the sincere reciprocation of whole-hearted love from Vidhura..

Vidhura did not know nor feel that Krishna was the God's incarnation. But Vidhura being an impeccable Pinnacle of Righteousness as also an Expert in all the Saasthras... saw and felt Krishna as the Embodiment of Righteousness... and an exemplary Human-being ... an all-rounder well-knowledgeable Scholarly King... who could answer and clarify on every point of doubt either on Life-codes applicable for any common man, as well as on Reign-codes pertaining to the Royals. And mainly Vidhura loved Krishna sincerely to the core of his heart.. which the latter knew well.

While Duryodana planned cunningly to drag Krishna to his side... at least to gain a partial support for him... so that in times of future need can be made use of for any mediation.... .This gesture implied no whole- hearted love ... far contrary to Vidhura towards Krishna

So when Krishna arrived at Hastinapura....exhibiting a grand pomp as if for a visiting Emperor-Guest.... pretending humbleness.... Duryodana invited Krishna....to be his Royal-guest in his palace... which the Yadava-King Krishna could identify...in comparison to the other side...

Vidhura showing his small House naming it as a Hut... as a Single man...invited without any pomp or paraphernalias normally expected to receive a King or a Learned person...

... but with a truly cheerful face, exhibiting only Sincere Regard and Affection...the Humane-Love... and nothing else.

True affection and sincerety of Vidura was reciprocally acknowledged and preferred by Krishna irrespective of simplicity... so accepted his invitation and stayed with him as his Guest... ignoring the Royal- treatment offered by Duryodana.

Whereas Duryodana felt it a shame to him... and that Vidhura made his plans a failure by inviting the same person competing with him simultaneously...

Vidhura's gesture was whole-hearted on his own self-drive of Voluntary Invitation-offer to Krishna which was duly reciprocated... to show as a Lesson for Humanity...

... that the Sincerety and True Love are the utmost important criteria for ADJUDGEMENT...

... which Quality can supersede and overweigh any other factors of Enchantments in life.

... One of the High-Lessons... through Moral-gestures... by action.. without words.

´ôÒ¼ý Ó¸õ ÁÄ÷ó§¾ ¯ÀºÃ¢òÐ ¯ñ¨Á §Àº¢, ¯ôÀ¢øÄ¡ì ÜÆ¢ð¼¡Öõ ¯ñÀ§¾ «Ó¾õ ¬Ìõ

(Oppudan Muham malarndhae upasariththu Unhmai paesi, Uppillaa Koozh ittaalum unhbadhae Amudham aahum.)[/tscii:a4fb407ca9]

Raghu

12th April 2005, 02:26 PM

[tscii:88fe63dcad]Dear Mr. Raghu,

I will reply to you tomorrow. Please bear with me.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

[/tscii:88fe63dcad]

Thank you Sudhama Sir

viggop

12th April 2005, 02:56 PM

What about Gandhari?
She was the princess of present day Gandhar.She was very dutiful wife who covered her eyes just because her husband was blind.This inspite of marrying him knowing that he was blind.
Unfortunately,she was not a good mother as Duryodhana never respected her words.
Even then,in the end,she tries to save duryodhana by asking him to come before her without wearning any clothes>she then unties the cloth which have covered her eyes.Lord Krishna again plays a trick on Duryodhana and her powerful eyes does not cover all of Duryodhana's body.
Unfortunately for her,her brother Shakuni is cunning person who ruins duryodhana completely and makes him run after wealth.
Finally,she accompanies Dhiritharashtra into the forests and burns herself up in flames by throwing her body into the fire.

Raghu

12th April 2005, 05:28 PM

Dear Viggop, Sudhama and others

Oh yes, another Adharma way of Killing, in mace fight, one is not supposed to hit the oponent below the waist line, and un armed, here this is what bhima does, he kills dhuriyodhana while he is un armed and on his thighs!

On hearing this Balram anna (as Lord Krishna fondly calls him) rushes to the seen fuming with anger towards bhima, who was ready to challenge Bhima for a fight, but Lord Krishna console balram anna about all the adharma's the kauravas did and that Dhuriyodhana deserved that.

so the point Lord Krishna is trying to get is you can not win adharma with dharma alone, at times you have to confront adharma with adharma.

what are your views friends?

12th April 2005, 06:05 PM

Raghu

12th April 2005, 06:24 PM

... at the sabha, when the pandavas lost Draupadi in the game, Duryodhana called her and asked her to sit in his lap (thighs). Bhima took a wow then to kill him by breaking his thighs....

Oh yes, I forgot about that incident

Sudhaama

13th April 2005, 03:33 AM

"Raghu"

// "ts"..... at the sabha, when the pandavas lost Draupadi in the game, Duryodhana called her and asked her to sit in his lap (thighs). Bhima took a wow then to kill him by breaking his thighs..//

Not only that of Bheema...

But also Draupadhi takes a vow that she will tie up her Hair only after applying the Blood from the same Thigh of Duryodana... by hitting at it....

... admixing with the blood by breaking the dirty-hand of Dussaasana... who caused a worst possible insult to any lady ... especially a Queen...by derobing her in the presence of a vast assembly of people..... (on the orders of the King and Brother Duryodana)

Thus all the three commitments were carried out by Bheema...

viggop

13th April 2005, 12:08 PM

Draupadi makes a vow to drink the blood of Dushashana and Duryodhana

13th April 2005, 01:36 PM

Draupadi makes a vow to drink the blood of Dushashana and Duryodhana

It was bhima not Draupadi

Raghu

13th April 2005, 01:45 PM

Dear Sudhama sir

If, as you say Mahabhratham was the fifth veda, was Ramayana the 4th veda, like you have said, Mahabhratham had 3 avatars of Lord Vishnu (Lord Krishna, Balaram and Parasuram) during these Dwapara Yuga period, I heard Maha Iswar took avatar as the Pandavas, is that true? Prior to this during the Satya Yuga Lord Vishnu incarnated as Lord Rama and Lakshman, so was Ramayana the 4th Veda?

Prior to both of these Lord Vishnu incarnated as many entities, like

1. Koorva
2. Macha
3.Narashima
4. as a Bhramin (I forgot his name)
5. Rama
6. Laksham
7. Krishna
8. Balrma
9.Parasuram
10. Kalki avatar yet to happen in Kali Yuga

is my order correct, if not please enlighten me

(2) Only in that Divine Spirit... Four more Needhi-Sasthras or Gospels... have emanated in Mahabharatha.... ..They are.. (a) Bhagawad-Geetha.. (b) Vishnu- Saharsranama . (c) Yaksha-Prasna (d) Vidhura-Needhi.

Where does Shrimad Bhaghavatam comes in your list, according to His Divine Grace, Sripala Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhuda, Shrimad Bhghavtam was scripted during the Mahabharatham as well, though I don't know the difference between Bhahavad Gita and Shrimad Bhaghavatham
_________________
"Ekam Sataha Vipraha Bahudha Vadanti,"
"The truth is One, but different Sages call it by Different Names, but ultimatley everything leads to Maha Iswar (Shivam)"

Raghu

13th April 2005, 08:57 PM

Bhima's son Gadotkaja had a son called Barberik, who knew the outcome of the war thanks to the boon granted by lord Krishna, does not barberik sound like what is now a greek name?, after all the Aryan invasion was from Greece right?

another question, what was Karna's wife and son's name?

was it not Arjuna who killed Karna's son fom behind(another Adharma killing) to take revenge on Karna for killing abhimanyu(another adharma killing)?

Karna's son was not mentioned as much as abhimanyu in mahabharth, why? :o :shock:

and who was Yuyutsu in the Epic, I forgot who he was :(

Thiru

13th April 2005, 10:39 PM

I vaguely remember this.. so i might not be 100% right..
I think yuyutsu was born to dhirdhirasthra and was the last of the 100 kauravas.. He was against the injustice done to draupathi and the pandavas and joined the pandavas in the war.. He was the only kaurava to survive the war...

Thiru

13th April 2005, 10:42 PM

Raghu
the dasavadharam comes in this order

1.Matsya or macha (fish)
2.Koorma (Turtle)
3.Varaha (Boar)
4.Narasimha (Half lion )
5.Vamana (dwarf)
6.Parasurama
7.Rama
8.Balarama
9.Krishna
10.Kalki

Thiru

13th April 2005, 10:43 PM

btw, does someone remember the name of the last character of mahabarath? He's supposed to be the grand son (or great grandson) of abhimanyu...

Sudhaama

13th April 2005, 11:52 PM

"Raghu"

// Dear Sudhama sir... //

Thanks my dear Mr. Raghu. Welcome. I am glad to note your high calibre as a Gentleman.!!!.

// If, as you say Mahabhratham was the fifth veda, was Ramayana the 4th veda, like you have said, Mahabhratham had 3 avatars of Lord Vishnu (Lord Krishna, Balaram and Parasuram) during these Dwapara Yuga period//

Mahabharatha is called... as the 5th Veda...

...not because of three Awathaaras of Vishnu are involved...

.. but because of its message-content ... a translation of Veda into Reality...

In fact almost all the Main Devas... including the Lord Shiva... are involved in this Epic.

Out of all the Awatharaas of one and the same God, Vishnu...

...Krishna-awathaara is only called as POORNA-AWATHAARA....

...due to several reasons... one of which is that He being the Monitor- Conductor... so called Soothra-Dhaari ( meaning the person who operates a Doll-show ... Bommalaattam.... Soothra= Thread;... Dhaari = Holder / Conducter / Operator)... from behind the relevant characters...

... gets done... making others as the Doers or Heroes and Heroines while the God takes up the dual Role of just a Servant. of Human-beings...
on one side...

... alongside the simultaneous Role of the Supreme-conducter from behind.. ... ensuring the realistic enactment of Vedic- Dharma by action...so to say by the dint of Implementation of the Vedic-Gospels

... an Embarassing status carried out in an amazingly emulative manner.

//, I heard Maha Iswar took avatar as the Pandavas, is that true?//..

Pandavas are Not the Awataras of Lord Shiva... but the sons of different Devas....e.g.... the 3 Sons born to Kunthi, Pandus first wife. plus 2 for Madri his 2nd wife.

Kunthi's:--

Yudhishtira - Yama...
Bheema - Vaayu-Deva...
Arjuna - Indra...

Madri's :--

Nakula & Sahadeva - Aswini Devas...

Maheswar Shiva... graces and helps Arjuna a lot ... he being the staunch Shiva-devotee... but Shiva does not directly participate much in Mahabharatha... but on a few occasions.

... unlike Ramayana... where Hanuman is the Complex- embodiment of Vayu and Lord..Shiva .

// Prior to this during the Satya Yuga Lord Vishnu incarnated as Lord Rama and Lakshman, so was Ramayana the 4th Veda? //

Veda comprises of 4 parts... so called 4 Vedas... Ramayana is not named as 4th Veda.

Lakshman is not the Awathara of Vishnu... but he is of Aadhi-saesha (Vishnu's servant... (Five-hooded Holy-Snake)

But as a matter of gratitude and appreciation by Lord Vishnu... towards Adi-sesha for his remarkable performance in Ramayana...

... he is bestowed with a high honour as Elder brother... Balarama... a Complex admizture of God and his Servant within one shape ( Vishnu + Adisesha)

//...Prior to both of these Lord Vishnu incarnated as many entities, like

1. Koorva.... 2. Macha ...3.Narashima ...4. as a Bhramin (I forgot his name) ...5. Rama ...6. Laksham ...7. Krishna...8. Balrma ...9.Parasuram
10. Kalki avatar yet to happen in Kali Yuga //

Not so the order of Awathaaras are as below :---

(1) Macha Awatharam... Combined with the body of the Fish.

(2) Koorma Awathaara ... Combined with the body of a Tortoise.

(3) Varaaha Awathaara ... Combined with the body of the Boar(Not Pig)

(4) Narasimha-Awathaara ... Combination of a Man and Animal ..Lion

(5) Vamana ... Tiny-Man... First shape of Mankind.

(6) Parasurama... Full Man's shape... with Complex-characters of Man + Beast
.
Sudhaama" said...

//(2) Only in that Divine Spirit... Four more Needhi-Sasthras or Gospels... have emanated in Mahabharatha.... ..They are.. (a) Bhagawad-Geetha.. (b) Vishnu- Saharsranama . (c) Yaksha-Prasna (d) Vidhura-Needhi.

Raghu in Reply...

//Where does Shrimad Bhaghavatam comes in your list, according to His Divine Grace, Sripala Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhuda, Shrimad Bhghavtam was scripted during the Mahabharatham as well, though I don't know the difference between Bhahavad Gita and Shrimad Bhaghavatham//

Bhagawatham ... was made by Sukha-brahma-Rishi... a Complex Life-History of... Dhruva-charithram... Narasima-awatharam...etc of Vishnu... along with the major content on early days of Krishna ... ... including Kamsa-vadam... Rukmini-Kalyanam... Govardhana-giri lifting...etc...

... In brief.. the major content of Bhagawatham... is the narration of various sorts of Krishna-Leelas ... during His Boyhood ...

...prior to the commencement of Mahabharatha epic's stage involving Krishna....

Bhagawatham is different from Mahabharatha... even the authors are different.

... even though Krishna takes part in both... but one after another..

geno

14th April 2005, 04:07 AM

Sudhaama avargaLE!

I did not intend to participate in the discussion here, but for that Kannadhasan lyrics!

I largely differ from your views - on the "nature and intent" of the M.Bharatha, but as some friends here wanted i refrain from discussing them, and just let the discussion about the "epic" unravel itself :)

But there are certain unmistakable things in M.B - like the (Extra-marital) sons of the "Vedic gods" i.e. the Pandavas - prevailing over "others" - which is a very strong symbology - a portend for things to come then! (M.B must have been "edited" between 800 B.C 200 B.C by various authors, and also "enriched" throughout the later centuries by various "seers"!)

But we can continue with other lines of thought elsewhere or in another apprpriate time! :)

Badri

14th April 2005, 05:14 AM

btw, does someone remember the name of the last character of mahabarath? He's supposed to be the grand son (or great grandson) of abhimanyu...

Abhimanyu's son was Parikshit, Parikshit's son was Janamejaya

He was the one who was credited (?) with doing a great sacrifice (homa) to destroy all the snakes of the world, to avenge his father's death by the bite of the snake. A brahmin named Astika, who was supposed to be born to a Naga and a human, stops the dastardly sacrifice, and saves the snakes.

viggop

14th April 2005, 07:57 AM

Even today,there is a belief that Astika manthram can be used to ward off snakes.

The avatars of Vishnu can also be said as Human evolution.
From the animal forms,we move to different human forms and the last one who has already appeared is Krishna(as a great teacher).

Raghu

14th April 2005, 02:40 PM

Dear Sudhama Sir

Thank you very much for your detailed answer, very much appreciated.

Geno

Welcome, please do post your views regardless of what, so we can clear your/our doubts and have a healthy Argument :D

Thiru

Thanks for the info regarding the avatars of Lord Vishnu

Viggop

Regarding the avatars of Lord Vishnu, it indeed shows the evolution process!, never thought of that before :shock:

Thiru

14th April 2005, 05:01 PM

viggop

14th April 2005, 06:57 PM

Balarama in Mahabaratham
===============================
Balarama and his wife Revathy had a daughter called Vatsala. Krishna's sister Subadra had married Arjuna and they had a son called Abhimanyu. It had been agreed by elders that Vatsala and Abhimanyu would get married.

But, as the Pandavas had lost their kingdom to the Gauravas, Balarama and Revathy changed their minds and decided to give Vatsala in marraige to Latchana Kumara, Duryodhana's son.

Abhimanyu, with the help of Gadothgajan (son of Bheeman and Idumbi) married Vatsala. Vatsala was brought to Gadothgajan's place, while Gadothgajan took the guise of Vatsala in the palace. He (i.e Vatsala) appeared as a monkey, tiger, etc., only to Lakshana Kumara, who ran away from Vatsala in fear calling her a monkey, tiger, etc., All gathered thought Lakshana Kumara had gone mad. When Balarama heard that Vatsala had married Abhimanyu with Lord Krishna's blessings was overjoyed and welcomed them to his palace.

Raghu

14th April 2005, 07:51 PM

Sudhaama

14th April 2005, 08:29 PM

Vedic-Culture (Hinduism) a SCIENTIFIC- RELIGION and RAMA- KRISHNA?.

Dr Max Muller, a German Scholar... a multi-linguist Specialist...... was the first Foreigner to learn the advanced Sanskrit.... who took much pains to translate Vedas into English.

He... although a Christian... commented thus... after his deep unbiased Research...

Vedic- Culture... so called Hinduism... is a SCIENTIFIC -RELIGION... so to say based on Reasoning. For every Question on any point perplexing as a mystery or incredible... if one probes deep ... he can find an AMAZING TRUTH... by the dint of convincing Scientific-answers...

For example... anybody can question why God Vishnu... should incarnate as Fish, Tortoise, Boar, Animal-Beast by shape and Animal-Best by Qualities... etc.... appears RIDICULOUS DENIGRATION of God the Supreme in every respect... in the Religious angle.?

For this Question... my Answer is ... there is a Scientific-Theory behind these wonderful Sequence of Advancement on Creature Evolution on Earth....Relating withh the Scientific conclusions of.... DARWIN'S THEORY... we can analyse...

(1) The First creature on Earth... was born in Water... MACHCHA (Fish) Awathaaram

(2) Second creature as a next stage but in addition to the first one... was also born in water...but could survive in the Land also ... with its food being the First creature .. KOORMA (Tortoise) ... ''"

(3) Third Creature in addition to the previous too... was born on Earth... but living on the banks of Rivers... with its food on Root-Vegetations ... from beneath the Ground-suface .... VARAAHA (Boar) ..

(4)Fourth Creature was a Brainy Animal... Dominating / Ruling over all the other Creatures ... NARASIMHA (Lion+Man)...

(5) Fifth-creature was a Tiny one but of high Wisdom ... VAAMANA (Tiny-man) ...

(6) Sixth was the Full-grown Man... but with Beastly Qualities of Offensive domination with Physical + Brain Mights ... PARASURAMA(Man + Beast)

(7) Next was the FIRST MANKIND... a well-developed Creature with mighty power of Wisdom innate with Social-Spirit of Unity in Diversity... while confronting Common-problems :.RAMA ( Whole-Man)

(8) Advanced one... to deal with all the other Creatures amicably ...working towards Unified Advancement...(Started along with the previous one: (MONKEY) but developed next)... ... BALARAMA(Discerning Wise)

(9) Final-Creature ...as the Great Man... endowed with Applied Wisdom towards high standard Subjects like Science, Religion and such Rich Knowledge areas.. beyond his realm on Earth. .......... KRISHNA (Advanced MAN)

Raghu

14th April 2005, 08:55 PM

Hats off sudhama sir, for the wonder ful info,

Raghu

14th April 2005, 09:21 PM

Sudhama Sir

Please enlighten me about the names of Karna's wife and Children?

thanks a lot

Sudhaama

15th April 2005, 06:23 AM

"Raghu"

// Sudhama Sir... Please enlighten me about the names of Karna's wife and Children?//

I don't have any Reference here with me now at America... whatever I am posting here... are all out of my memory.... And I cannot remember such trivial characters... (insignificant for this high topic. of Mahabharatha)

Perhaps Mr. "badri99" may be able to furnish you...the Answer..

... since he seems to be an All-rounder with vast knowledge...

... Or anybody else too?

Badri

15th April 2005, 06:37 AM

Appa! Mr Sudhama! You are too much.

Anyway, I know the names of 2 sons of Karna

a) Chitrasena
b) Vrshasena. this was the son killed by Arjuna, in memory of Abhimanyu, in the very sight of Karna.

I have no idea of Karna's wife's name. Although there is a tamil traditional play (a ala therukoothu) in which they refer to a Ponnuruvi as the wife of karna

Querida

15th April 2005, 08:53 AM

sorry on a tangent here but thanx Geno for the reader site....finally make sense of jumbled gibberish :D

Raghu

15th April 2005, 04:23 PM

A Brief History on the Greatest Warrior - Ankaraj Karna

A great hero of the 'Mahabharata'. Karna lived such a life that he became another name for generosity and loyalty. It was his misfortune to be shunned as a person of low caste. To him loyalty was more important than the emperor's throne. He sacrificed his life for his master

The Ganga was flowing full to the brim. An old man stood on the bank. He made obeisance with folded hands to the sun that was just rising. He prayed as usual:"Oh Sun God! You give light to the whole world. I have no children and my life is miserable. Have mercy on me. Grant me a child. Bestow light on my life

As the prayer ended, Adhiratha's eyes were filled with tears. This was not the first time all this had happened. Every day he would pray like this, He was already becoming old. He thought perhaps God had not heard his prayer at all.

Adhiratha was about to leave. Then he saw something floating. Adhiratha stood still. The object was floating towards him. When it came near him Adhiratha bent down. Lo, it was a large basket! Inside, on a soft cushion, there was a child. It wore a Shining armor; it had a glowing earornament. The Child was lovely; it shone like a miniature sun.

Adhiratha was overwhelmed with surprise, pity and joy. At once he picked up the child from the basket. Tears of joy flowed from his eyes profusely. How strange! He had found a child just where he had stood in prayer! Did it mean that God had heard his prayer? Poor child, to whom does it belong? What did it matter! In future it would be his, and only his. Adhiratha joyfully took child in his arms and went home.

Radha was Adhiratha's wife. Like her husband she was also pining for a child. When she saw the child she could not contain her joy. They brought up the child lovingly.

They named the child Vasushena. But the name Karna stuck to the child.

Karna grew up to be a boy. He was brighter than his friends, stronger and more determined. Even as a boy he liked bows and arrows. He was far ahead of others in archery and in marksmanship. Those who watched him were surprised. "He is so young, but already so intelligent and so sure of his aim!" they said.

Karna wished to improve his mastery of archery. He longed to become an outstanding archer and a great warrior. But he needed a teacher to train him, didn't he? He was looking for such a teacher.

Once when he was talking to somebody, the great Parashurama's name was mentioned. Karna asked:

"Who is Parashurama?"

"He is the son of the sage Jamadagni. Although a sage, he is an outstanding warrior.

"Who is Parashurama?"

"How is that?"

"He has gone round the whole country twenty-one times. No Kshatriya could vanquish him. When he lifts his bow the whole world trembles. He knows the intricacies of archery. Do you know what people say about him?"

"What do they say?"

"He is the very embodiment of the art of archery. He is God born on this earth to wipe out injustice."

When Karna heard this, admiration and respect for Parashurama grew in him. He wished to become the disciple of such a great man and learn archery only from him. But there was one nagging doubt: would Parashurama accept him as his disciple?

Karna made bold and went to the hermitage of Parashurama. He prostrated before him. Parashurama asked:

"Who are you, Child

"They call me Karna."

"Why did you come to me?"

"You are regarded as a matchless and outstanding warrior. You know the intricacies of archery. I wish to become your pupil. Do not reject me."

When he observed Karna's humility and love of learning, Parashurama took pity on him. As Parashurama desired Karna gladly demonstrated his skill. Parashurama was surprised at his dexterity andconcentration. He felt Karna's skill was beyond his years. He also felt that Karna deserved to be his pupil. He agreed to teach Karna the art of archery. Karna was overjoyed.

In those days only Kshatriyas and Brahmins were allowed to stay with and learn archery from a teacher.

Parashurama hated that Kshatriyas. Therefore he had decided to teach archery only to Brahmins. He thought Karna was a Brahmin. And Karna refrained from telling him that he was not a Brahmin.

Karna's training proceeded without any hindrance. He would grasp his teacher's instructions instantly. He would carry them out perfectly, at the first attempt. Thus Karna grasped the technique of archery from the teacher. And he served his teacher with affection. Quite some time passed

One afternoon Parashurama was somewhat tired. He rested with his head in Karna's lap. He fell asleep.

At that time a bee flew in from somewhere. Flying hither and thither it settled on Karna's thigh. Within a few minutes it began to bore Karna's thigh. Karna could not attempt to drive it away. Even a slight movement of his thigh would disturb his master. So inspire of the increasing pain Karna sat still. He thought that his suffering did not matter if the teacher's sleep was not to be disturbed. The bee continued to bore Karna's thigh. Blood began to ooze from the thigh. The blood touched Parashurama's cheek. He woke up. He was taken aback and said:

"What is this, child? Where did so much blood come from?"

Karna explained what had happened.

Asked Parashurama: "Did you put up with so much pain without a murmur?"

"The pain did not seem unbear able to me."

Parashurama was surprised. He looked at Karna from head to foot. He had all along assumed that Karna was a Brahmin boy. But a soft-bodied Brahmin could not have endured so much pain. Karna was not a Brahmin. Parashurama suspected strongly that Karna was a Kshatriyas. Angrily he spoke to Karna in a harsh voice:

"You, Karna I"

"Yes, master?"

"Tell me the truth, who are you? Have you not hidden something from me?"

"What have I hidden, I do not "Are you a Brahmin boy? Tell me, tell me the truth."

Karna did not reply. He stood silent, with his head bowed. He had assumed that he was really the son of Adhiratha whobrought him up, Adhiratha was a charioteer. He Karna, was a charioteer's son; neither a Brahmin nor a Kshatriyas. What answer could he give to his teacher? He was Miserable and filled with fear. Karna's silence convinced Parashurama that his suspicion was confirmed. Karna's modesty, courage, reverences for the teacher and love of learning- he forgot all in his wrath. "You, boy! Have you not deceived your teacher and received training? I have taught you the use of mighty weapons; but when you most need this knowledge may you forget it all!" So Parashurama cruelly cursed Karna.

Karna felt as if the ground on which he stood gave way. He had hurt his teacher's feelings. Besides he had acquired the curse by which he would forget all he had learnt, when he needed it next, he left Parashurama's hermitage.

The education of the princes, the Pandavas and the Kauravas, in archery had just concluded. A display of their skill had been arranged. This news reached Karna.

He went there, curious to see the exhibition of the skill of archery by the princes.

There was a large field outside the capital Hastinavati City. A stadium had been constructed there. In the center there was a huge arena. The rest of the stadium was for the spectators. There was a huge gathering of people to witness the display. Members of the royal family were also there.

The display began. The princes gave an exhibition of riding swift horses. They performed strangle feats of horse riding. They drove chariots in breath-taking ways. They sat on elephants and fought. They swung and brandished swords in various ways and showed a variety of tricks. Arjuna all by himself gave an effortless display of archery. He showed the use of mighty arrows, which amazed the audience. Everybody began to praise him: "There is nobody to equal Arjuna. He is supreme in archery."

At that time there was a sound of thunder near the door. The people turned to look. A youth was striking his arms as if in challenge and advancing. His radiance, his

well-built body, his tall stature, his bright armor and ear-ornament-all dumbfounded the people. A murmur rose on all sides:

The youth who had stepped forward was none other than Karna. When he came to the arena he turned towards Arjuna and said:

"You, Partha, do not think that there is no better archer than you and be puffed up with vanity. I shall display far greater mastery than your." So saying, Karna demonstrated his skill. He shot the Parjanya weapon into the sky and brought down rain; with the Vayavya weapon he checked the rain. By Agneya weapon he checked the rain. By Aneya weapon he kindled fire, and with the Varuna weapon he put it out. Into the mouth of a swiftly turning metallic figure of a boar he drove five arrows. He shot an Antardhana weapon, which made him disappear; swiftly he appeared in another part of the arena. After their display he took a mace and showed in how many ways he could wield it. People were astounded at this superb mastery. There was uproar on every side.

Hardly was the display over when Duryondhana raced to the arena, embraced Karna and said, "You matchless warrior, your Valor and knowledge of arms have overwhelmed me. Here, my kingdom and I are all yours. Tell me what you desire. I want to fulfil your wish at once."

In reply said Karna: "Maharaja, I do not want anything else. Your friendship and a bout of archery with Arjuna: These are the only two I want." Duryondhana said, "If so, your wishes are as good as fulfilled. From today you are my bosom friend; you are my equal. Need I fear anybody in future?"

All this talk provoked Arjuna who was nearby. Said he, "You Karna! We did not invite you but still you came. We did not ask you to speak, still you are talking too much, You have disturbed a quiet assembly. I will kill you at once. Be armed and get ready to fight."

Karna flared up at this and said:

"You Arjuna! This arena is not reserved for you. This is a public place. Whoever knows archery may exhibit it here. What is your objection? You are insulting me. Does a true warrior blabber? Come, fight. I will kill you with my arrow here and now."

Both of them got ready to fight. Dronacharya, who had trained the princes, had to agree to this. There was utter confusion in the assembly. Kunti, the mother of the Pandavas, fainted when she heard that Karna and Arjuna were to fight.

Kripacharya walked up to the arena. He knew well the rules of a duel. He said to Karna:

"Look, Karna. This person who is ready to fight against you is Arjuna. He is a prince of the race of the Moon, son of king Pandu. The person to oppose him should be his equal in all these respects. Whose son are you? To what race do you belong? Whose pupil? Tell it to the assembly."

Karna bowed his head overcome by a sense of shame and sorrow. 'I am the son of a charioteer. Therefore, it seems I belong to a low race. These people are making it a big issue. What does it matter who I am 7 Is not courage important for a man?' thought Karna. But that was the practice of the time. What could be done? Karna stood silent.When Duryondhana saw what had happened he was furious. "You Kripacharya, what are you talking about? You think that Arjuna is a prince and Karna is not, don't you?

Well, then, here and now I make Karna a king. He can then challenge Arjuna, cannot he?" So saying, he then and there crowned Karna, King of Anga State. The people shouted in approval. Karna was overwhelmed with gratitude. "Maharaja, how can I repay you for this favor?" he asked. Duryondhana said, "Karna, I value your friendship more than anything else. Let it always be mine" and embraced him.

Arjuna and Karna were about to fight. At that moment Adhiratha came there. He had just heard that his son had become a king. Karna went to him and saluted. Adhiratha lovingly embraced his son and blessed him thus: "Child, may your fame increase." Bhima who observed this understood that Karna was the son of Adhiratha. He said in a slighting voice: "You, Karna, are you not the son of Adhiratha, the charioteer? How can you be the equal of Arjuna born in the lunar race? Because he stands by the side of the sacred fire, does a dog get the right to eat the sacred offering? You are unworthy of the Anga kingdom; you are not even fit to be killed by Arjuna in a battle" so insulted Bhima. When Duryondhana heard this he became furious. He turned to Bhima and shouted: "Your words are not worthy of a Kshatriyas. For a Kshatriyas, valor is most important. How do Karna’s caste matters? Indra's mighty weapon, Vajraayudha, was forged out of sage Dadhichi's bone; Dronacharya was born in a s sacred pot; they say that Kripacharya was born in a handful of sacred grass. Why should birth matter? Karna was born with sacred earornament and armor. He shines like the sun. How is such a person unworthy of the kingdom of Anga? if anybody does not approve of the coronation of Karna let him fight against Karna and win."

There was commotion in the assembly. As it was getting dark, the assembly ended. People went home, praising Karna's prowess.

The friendship between Duryodhana and Karna grew day by day. Not for a moment did Duryodhana think that he was the emperor and Karna was his inferior. He was always in the company of Karna, He would tell him everything . When the officials employed for the purpose began to sing his titles he would stop them and make them sing Karna's titles, and feel happy. Every day he would give precious gifts to Karna. he valued greatly Karna's character, strength, honesty and generosity.

And Karna reciprocated. Duryodhana was dear to him as his own life. For his sake karna was prepared to offer his life. When others insulted by calling him the son of a charioteer, Duryodhana alone had treated him as his equal; so Karna had great regard and friendship for Duryodhana.

Karna was matchless in charity. So was he in carrying out his promise. Hundreds of poor people used to come to him. Wiht a smile Karna would give them money or clothes. He was called " Danashoora" ( outstanding in generosity).

The Kauravas and the Pandavas were sons of brothers. For the sake of the kingdom they were always at loggerheads. Whenever there was a quarrel Karna was on the side of Duryodhana, the eldest of the Kauravas. For him I must fight; in the future war I must kill his enemies, the Pandavas; in particular I must destroy the most powerful among them, Arjuna. That will please Duryodhana. Such were his thoughts. He had confidence in his ability to protect Duryodhana even if Bhisma, Drona and others let him down. Whenever Duryodhana was worried about the stronger of hte Pandavas, Karna would assure him. " Please do not worry. Only, let there be a war between ourselves and hte Pandavas, then you will see. I am going to crush them." Such words gave Duryodhana comfort and confidence.

The Kauravas and the Pandavas decided to wage a war for the kingdom. Krishna went to Hastinavati to prevent the war and bring about an agreement between the two. In the king's court he advised Duryodhana not to wage a war. Duryodhana did not heed the advice. When he left Hastinavati Krishna took Karna a little distance with him. He made him sit by his side in the chariot. Karna was diffident and uneasy. He thought: Krishna is a great man. Compared to him who is I-a low caste man! Why does he make me sit next to him? Krishna realised this. He said with a smile: -

"Karna, you need not be embarrassed. You think that you are the son of a charioteer, don't you? But no, it is not true. Adhiratha is your foster-father; not the real father.

You are Kunti's son. Kunti gave birth to you when she was not yet married. Fearing that people would blame her, she put you in a basket and sent you floating on the river Ganga. Adhiratha found you. Karna, you were born by the grace of the Sun God; you are a Kshatriyas, and the eldest of the Pandavas. As you are my aunt Kunti's son, you are related to me also. Come with me. I will take you to the Pandavas. Because you are the eldest among both the Kauravas and Pandavas, you will be the emperor of the Kaurava Empire. The Pandavas will also be very happy when they come to know that you are their eldest brother. Both Duryodhana and Dharmaraja will accept you as the emperor. There will be no war and thousands of people will escape death. You belong to a great family, but all these days you have been regarded as the son of a charioteer. Enough of such humiliation! You should live as the emperor obeyed by the Kauravas, the Pandavas and the Yadavas, but you have been begging alms of Duryodhana!"

On hearing Krishna, surprise, happiness and sorrow at once overcame Karna and his voice was choked. It was difficult to speak. Said he: "Krishna, you say that Kunti was the mother who gave birth to, me. That may be. However, she abandoned me at the instant of my birth. But as soon as he saw me Adhiratha lovingly carried me home.

Mother Radha has fed me with her milk. Adhiratha has treated me better than his own son. He has brought me up lovingly -and celebrated my marriage. No matter what you offer me, how can I leave the parents who have lavished such love on me? And now about Duryodhana. We are two bodies but one soul. When the whole world was mocking me as lowborn, he honored me. I went to him as a nobody, but he bestowed a kingdom on me. He has given boundless* friendship. How can I repay his debt? In declaring war on the Pandavas he has mainly relied on me. Shall I join the Pandavas and betray him? No, Krishna. Duryodhana is the master who gave me succour. He is my master, my all. I will stand by him and fight the Pandavas. If I win I shall have the satisfaction of having done my master's work; if I die I shall have glory. So I am resolved. Now let us part."

On hearing Karna, Krishna was inwardly full of admiration. "Bravo Karna! You are the very embodiment of loyalty to the master" thought he. But he took leave of Karna without showing his feelings.

Next morning Karna was offering prayer to the sun on the bank of the river. At that time Kunti came there. Krishna himself had sent her there. He had asked her to get a promise from Karna that he would not kill the Pandavas. The moment he saw Kunti, Karna respectfully touched her feet and saluted her. Said Kunti, "Child, you are my son. The Pandavas are your younger brothers. You have been thinking of your brothers as your enemies. You have vowed to kill them. Please do not do so. Leave the camp of the Kauravas. Join your younger brothers. Am I not your mother? Hear my words, Karna. Is it not the duty of children to carry out the wishes of their parents?"

Replied Karna: "Mother dear, you are my mother, true. But till now people have been ignorant of this fact. Those who looked after me and brought me up are also my parents. How can ' I give them up? This is the time of war, a time when all those who have eaten Duryodhana's salt must fight for him, not rearing death. For the last thirteen years I have enjoyed all princely privileges with him. It was his friendship that brought me everything. All these days I haven't once said a word about my brothers.

Suppose now, when war is imminent, I talk about them and go over to the Pandavas. The whole world will call me a traitor. Therefore my joining the Pandavas is unthinkable. But mother, I will comply with one of your requests. You desire that I should not kill the Pandavas. I agree; I will not kill any of the Pandavas except Arjuna. Whether I kill Arjuna or Arjuna kills me, it won't matter. In either case you will be definitely left with five children. Now let us part." With these words Karna saluted hismother and wished her good-bye.

The armies of the Kauravas and the Pandavas got ready for war. Bhishma became the Supreme Commander of the Kaurava army. He was listing the names of the important generals on his side and on the side of the Pandavas. In those days the mighty warriors used to rank as Atirathas and maharathas according to their prowess.

Bhishma said of Karna: "This Karna is not an Atirathas; he is not even a purnaratha. Even the teacher who taught him has cursed him. Also the natural armor and earornament he had at birth, he has presented to others. So he is not as strong as he used to be. Therefore, he is an ardharatha." So Bhishma ranked him disparagingly, far below the renowned generals. Dronacharya who was nearby also said: "Yes, yes, tie is very vain. Truly he is an ardharatha."

Karna who heard all this was very much pained. He was also enraged. Said he: "Bhishma, why do you hate me so much? I am innocent. Still you always prick me with such fierce words. You are the Supreme Commander. Is it right to sow conflict in the army? Who can say that you know your responsibility as the Supreme Commander?

You are extremely old; you are senile. That is why you talk like this. "He turned to Duryodhana and said: "Friend, this man thinks he is the only warrior in the world. Single-handed, I can destroy the Pandavas and their army. But when he derides me in this fashion, why should I fight? Even if I kill the enemies, this Supreme Commander will get the credit. I do not like it. In any case, he will be defeated in the war. After that I will fight and kill the enemies". So saying, Karna renounced the war and walked away.

The war began. As Suprem Commander Bhishma fought against the Pandava army for ten days. He killed thousands of soldiers in the Pandava army. Even the mighty Arjuna found it difficult to stop him. Having fought like this for ten days, Bhishma fell, with arrows stickling all over his body.

True- ' Karna was angry with Bhishma because he had insulted him. But when he saw Bhishma's valor his entire wrath evaporated. Such was his magnanimous nature. He would recognize and admire whatever was good and noble even in enemies. Bhishma's prowess won his admiration. He went to see Bhishma who was lying in a bed of arrows. "Bhishma, I am Karna; I have come to pay my respects to You," so saying he touched Bhishma's feet and saluted.

A flood of tears gushed out of Bhishma's eyes. He embraced Karna as a father would embrace a son. "Karna, you think that I hate you, don't you? No child, truly I have the slightest feeling of enmity towards you. I know you are a mighty warrior. You are like a god. In valor and munificence there is nobody to excel you. In the art of war you are the equal of Krishna and Arjuna. But you are very vain about your strength. I used to speak to you harshly to check your vanity, that's all", said Bhishma.

When Karna heard this voice was choked with affection. "Grandfather, if I have spoken to you harshly in anger or ignorance, please forgive biess and me me," said Karna.

Bhishma told him that Karna was Kunti's son and said: "Karna, it is not possible for the Kauravas to win this war. Join the Pandavas. Advise Duryodhana to stop the war.

And let all of you live peacefully."

"It is impossible for me to join the Pandavas. Success or failure-God will be done. I shall fight to the end on the side of Duryodhana; he trusts me and relies on me." So saying, Karna again saluted Bhishma and returned.

After Bhishma, Drona became the Supreme Commander of the Kaurava army. On the fourth day the battle was waged in the night in the light of torches. Bhima's son Ghatotkacha fought fiercely that night. He was the son of demon Hidimba. He was very valiant and also a wizard.

The Kaurava army reeled under Ghatotkacha's magic. Seeing this, Karna faced him. He had a formidable weapon called Vaijayanti, Which he had kept by to kill Arjuna. But now he used it against Ghatotkacha and cut him into two. The Kaurava army was overjoyed at the valor of Karna. On, hearing that Karna had used up the Vaijayanti weapon Krishna and Arjuna heaved a sigh of relief.

Drona fought for five days and died. Thereafter Karna became the Supreme Commander. On the very first day he belabored in battle Nakula, one of the Pandavas. He could easily have killed Nakula. But remembering his promise to kunti he spared Nakula.

Karna was eager to kill Arjuna. In every respect he had excelled Arjuna. But there was one big handicap. He did not have as brilliant a charioteer as Arjuna had in Krishna.

He sent word through Duryodhana and persuaded the valiant Shalya to become his charioteer. But this only harmed Karna. Shalya was the uncle of the Pandavas.

Although he had joined the Kauravas he loved the Pandavas. And the Pandavas had made a secret prayer to Shalya: "if ever you become Karna's charioteer, speak to him in such a way that he loses heart."

Shalya did so. He began to praise Arjuna highly before Karna. He spoke so as to imply that Arjuna was mightier than Karna. This threw cold water on Karna's enthusiasm.

Poor man! That was his misfortune. The charioteer who should have helped him was himself inviting defeat. Besides, that very day he had lost two sons in the battle.

But Karna did not lose heart. That day there was a fierce battle between himself and Arjuna. Karna fought in such a way that both armies were thrilled and full of admiration.

Krishna, Bhima and others were exhorting Arjuna: " What is this Arjuna, Your fighting is so lifeless? Karna is subduing all your weapons. Put more fire into your fighting,"

Do what he may, Arjuna could not gain the upper hand in the fight. So he used the Brahma arrow. At the Very sight of it, the Kaurava soldiers were terrified and began to run helter-skelter. But Karna was unmoved. Laughingly he used a mighty weapon and stopped it. Not content with that, he aimed the Snake Arrow, which he had kept by to use against Arjuna. Its blazing light lit up the whole battlefield. The Serpent, Arrow who raced like a leaping flame would have surely killed Arjuna. But in the nick of the moment Krishna pressed the chariot with his foot and depressed it by five inches. The Snake Arrow who should have hit Arjuna's head struck his crown. The crown tumbled down.

Thus the Snake Arrow was wasted.

Karna thought of shooting another mighty arrow. But on account of Parashurama's curse he could not recollect its use. Besides, the left wheel of his chariot got stuck in the ground. The chariot tilted. The horses stumbled. All dangers crowded on Karna as if there was no end to his misfortunes.

Karna turned to Arjuna and said: "Arjuna, the wheel of my chariot is stuck in the ground. Give me but a moment's respite. I will lift it and set right the chariot. Thereafter we may resume the fight. When I have got down from the chariot and I do not have the bow, do not shoot an arrow. That would not be worthy of a warrior like you.

Probably Arjuna would have agreed. But Krishna came in the way. "Arjuna, this is the right moment. If you hesitate now you cannot kill him later. Shoot your arrow without scruple," said he. Karna jumped down from the chariot and tried to lift the wheel with all his might. But he was unfortunate. He was a very strong man and he did his very best, but the wheel would not move. And even as he strove, obeying Krishna's advice Arjuna shot the Anjalika Arrow at Karna. The radiant Karna's head rolled down as if the sun tumbled from the sky.

Thus Karna sacrificed his life for the sake of his friend and master Duryodhana. He became the model of -truthfulness and loyalty.

viggop

15th April 2005, 07:03 PM

Good writeup on Karna.He would not immediately die.His dharma protected his life.Krishna comes as a brahmin and asks him to donate all his dharmas.Even on his death and knowing well that he'll die if he surrenders it,he'll still magnanimously give it away.Krishna blesses that he'll reach the heaven of warriors.
After his death,all the other pandavas will come to know that he was their own elder brother.Yudishtra will weep unconsolably and curse Kunti.But,what is the use of crying now? :-(

Raghu

15th April 2005, 07:13 PM

Yes, Viggop, I am so much addicted to the character of Karna, and I will be till my Atma leaves this material body. :cry: :cry:

Any way, Yudishtra refuses to be King after all the Kauravas are dead, he was traumatised by the fact, the pandavs have killed their elder brother in an adharma way, but Lord Krishna convinces him to accept the throne

viggop

15th April 2005, 08:39 PM

Raghu

15th April 2005, 08:49 PM

According to Hindu philosophy,the atma is undying.SO,Krishna will never feel sad for any death of the body.He does not bother about leading everyone to death as the death is for this body only.
That is why ,he leads everyone to the war.Some scholars have even accused Krishna to be a war-monger because he wanted the war and he did everything silently for the war and destruction therein

Of Course, the Atma never dies, the Atma takes birth and a new body according to its karma, be it its past life or present. Until this Atma differentiate Spiritualism from Maya (illusion) this material world, and surrender UN to the ParamAtma, Maha Iswar to attain Mukthi (salvation), it evolves around an indefinite loop of birth, old age, diseases and death. This is what has been happening for billions and billions of years.

The best way around this is simple but HONEST devotion to the Maha Iswar and free our selves from the Maya Surrounding us

Sudhaama

16th April 2005, 01:52 AM

"viggop"

VATSALA-KALYANAM.. in Mahabaratham
===============================

//Balarama and his wife Revathy had a daughter called Vatsala...... When Balarama heard that Vatsala had married Abhimanyu with Lord Krishna's blessings was overjoyed and welcomed them to his palace//

This Story... also cinematised as ... Maya-Bazaar ...is Not an authentic one...May be a Fiction..

It does not form part of Mahabhaaratha

Sudhaama

17th April 2005, 05:41 PM

"Niranjana"

// Ok, a question from Indian Mythology..... What would you have done if you were Draupadi? Would you under any circumstance have married 5 men at a time? Would you be able to love each of them equally?//

Yes... if I were born as Draupadi ...I would have GLADLY married one and all the Pandavas...

... as Draupadi RIGHTLY DID.... especially under their typical circumstances in the forest

(1) Although Arjuna had several wives, none of them could accompany their husband in the forest... except Draupadi... because she was the common wife to all of them... So this was an advantage to a wife ensuring NON-SEPARATION from her Husband(s)

(2) I would have got maximum Enjoyment of life by having various types of five mighty Husbands of sorts... as Draupadi had... by means of authorised Marriage."

(3) Also I would have got maximum support from Five great warriors... whom I could proudly quote to others... as Draupadi did.. .but because she became over-proud of it to an extent of ARROGANCE..... which SINFUL Mind- sickness fetched her grave punishment...

... that even with the possession of five great warriors as Husbands... an innocent wife too can be seriously made helpless... if she lacks GOD-REALISATION.... captivated by sinful deeds

(4) Once mischivously Krishna created an embarassing situation for Pandavas in forest..... when Draupadi had to CONFESS.. that she desired to have Karna too as ONE MORE HUSBAND !!!

(5) Draupadi has another name as "Paanjaali"... since she hailed from the then Paanjaala-daesam... the present Punjab...

viggop

17th April 2005, 06:35 PM

Sudhaama
I think Krishna tempts Karna that he can marry Draupadi provided Karna joins the Pandavas.Krishna ,being her closest friend,uses her as his pawn in the great game.

Sudhaama

17th April 2005, 08:13 PM

"viggop"

//Sudhaama ...I think Krishna tempts Karna that he can marry Draupadi provided Karna joins the Pandavas.Krishna ,being her closest friend,
uses her as his pawn in the great game //

No. Not So... Krishna never treated Draupadi so cheap ... Nor her Husbands Pandavas... nor Draupadi herself....

... but in fact all of them ESPECIALLY DRAUPADI ... had a burning Heat of Revenge within them... against Karna..

... that Draupadi was defamed MAINLY BECAUSE OF KARNA's instigation.... Duryodana implemented... IMMODESTY.. a grave injustice to an inocent Woman...and Queen Draupadi..

Even Krishna was much upset and terribly angry with Karna... for his such a shameful act caused by him.... even in spite of Karna being a NOBLE-MAN... (unlike his Friend Duroyodana ... an Embodiment of all the Inhuman-Qualities)

So it was beyond even a dream for Krishna to make Karna amicable with Pandavas...

...except to persuade Karna for his avoiding support to Adharma's Victory by means of his taking side with Duryodana.

We have to note that Krishna asked Kunthi to reveal her identity as the Mother of Karna as her son ... and also allowed Karna to know his brotherhood with Pandavas...

... but until Karna's death.. Krishna never allowed Pandavas or Draupadi to know of Karna's unknown blood- relation with Pandavas as their brother... another Son of Kunthi...

Because Krishna did fear of the probable development of complacency in Pandavas for antagonsing the sinful criminal Karna... especially in case of Draupadi...
.
After Kunthi's failure in making Karna to fall in line with Pandavas ... or at least to keep off the brotherly dispute....

Krishna met Karna..and persuaded on the dire necessity of fetching Victory for Righteousness ... and how Karna being the Son of SUN has more responsibility than others... and why it was unfair to support Duryodana ... the total shape of Evil-forces ....

... the highly meaninful discussions between them... brings out Karna's whole Heart... coupled with High Wisdom the ONE FACE of Karna... the Good side of his NOBLE character towards Righteousness....

Karna reveals to Krishna that he agrees with all the justifications on the Pandavas side...

...and that knowingly he has to fight against Dharma... as also against his own blood- related brothers....

The most important factor here is that he confidentially reveals to Krishna...

..."that he knew well that ultimately Pandavas will win" ...

...because Dharma is on their side... while Duryodana's side was Adharma...

... However... just for one man Duryodana's Sake... he would fight with whole-hearted sincere support for him... and even will die for him...

... as a Duty towards a Friend who fully trusts him... as also as a mark of Gratitude to Duryodana for support at his critical moments... when others all around condemned and rejected him at such helpless challenging occasions...

This shows the Greatness of Karna ... the GOOD side.by one Face... while his OTHER FACE ...was a CRIMINAL one....

Karna is a COMPLEX- CHARACTER. of Contra- distinction... Very difficult to define wholly and understand him well..

Raghu

18th April 2005, 02:38 PM

... that Draupadi was defamed MAINLY BECAUSE OF KARNA's instigation.... ..

this the ONLY black mark in Karna the legend, enough to spoil his character

Sudhaama

19th April 2005, 12:37 AM

KARNA the Complex of ... MAN & the BEAST ... TWO Opposite Faces....

"Sudhaama" :-- //... Draupadi was defamed MAINLY BECAUSE OF KARNA's instigation..//

"Raghu":-- .//... this the ONLY black mark in Karna the legend, enough to spoil his character //

ONLY Black-mark?....Now I will put forth the contra-distinctory Characters of his both the Faces ...

MANs Face on one side and the BEAST's Face on the Other side.....

(A) BEAST -Face... the CRIMINAL Karna...

(1) While Karna was basically a NOBLE-MAN with high Principles of EMULATIVE- IDEALS .... his intimate Friend, Duryodana was the opposite to his Propensity of Noblity by Character... in every sense.. ... being an embodiment of... Jealousy, Greed,Wickedness, Vengeance, Hatred, Hypocricy, Oppression, Domination, Selfishness, Tyranny and Injustice ... Mainly... JEALOUSY. and GREED

When Duryodana expressed to his Friend Karna.... his peaceless mind due to the Invincible advancement by valour and Fame of Pandavas outweighing Kauravas in one and all respecs .... Karna kindles such a negative Life-approach by a Sick-mind in Duryodana ..... by repeatedly advising him that they both would jointly avenge Pandavas ...

Was there anything to avenge or revenge or treat anybody as ENEMIES... just because he is more competent in any talent, outweighing all others... Was it not necessary for a Sportive-spirit there... instead of Battle- spirit? Other than exhibiting their better talent than all others.. what harm or injustice Pandavas had done to Kauravas? ... But one-sided Enmity of Duryodana sheerly out of Jealousy and Greed...

...on which Pandavas could not help.. Just for pleasing Duryodana... should they get defeated FALSELY in the Games... although they were capable of winning or performing as the best of emulative talents?

Karna could have advised Duryodana to beat out Pandavas... with a COMPETITIVE APPROACH... instead of COMBATIVE-APPROACH between the Brothers... because he knew about the values of Dharma, the Righteousness as also the suicidal trend of sick-mindedness by Jealousy, Greed and Wickedness... By which healthy persuasion, Duryodana might have got awakened on reconsideration through Positive- thinking.... at least..in the long run. Such a healthy aaproach from a trustworthy friend Karna would have definitely made an impact in the one-side minded Duryodana.... If not total reversal of Duryodana as topsy-turvy... at least it could have developed a healthy challenging attitude by means of Introspection, Self- improvementt and could have lead towards at least a check on his rash determination... to radically antagonise and finish the Pandavas at any cost.... Rather Karna was a party to FANNING, INSTIGATING AND JUSTIFYING... Duryodana's wicked Intention and Deeds... right from the beginning of his Friendship.

(2) Bheeshma was the most competent and authoritative Mediator between both the sides ... being the highly respected Senior-family-member as well as the high Intellectual, sincerely NEUTRAL AND IMPARTIAL.

Whereas by means of repeated surmisive and baseless blames, .Karna created Hatred and Disbelief in the mind of Duryodana towards Bheeshma... that the latter was partial, one-sided and highly favouring Pandavas to the radical detriment to Kauravas.

Consequently Karna and Bheeshma often had a bitter arguments resulting in an unending mutual-hatred... and whenever Duryodana was persuaded by his parents along with Bheeshma ... it was Karna... who UNNECESSARILY and UNCALLED FOR ... plunges himself in between.... thwarting the healthy endeavour of all others with the leadership of Bheeshma ... towards an amicable settlement ensuring peace in the country without war... ensuring eschewance of bitterness between the brothers.... caused UNREASONABLY AND UNJUSTLY... but only by SENSELESS AND RASH Antagonism to all such peaceful efforts towards development of amity...

Only by such NEGATIVE INSTIGATIONS by ONE AND THE SOLE person the trusted Friend of highly Noble-character basically...Duryodana became more and more ENRAGED that he was forsaken by all except his Friend Karna.... and developed more Hatred and Jealousy towards Pandavas.... as the MOST BITTER DIAMETRICAL ENEMIES... who werte trying tograb away his legitimate ownership on Kingdom... while Pandavas has no right in any manner.

(3) Pandavas were prepared to get contented with just at least Five Houses only as their due share ... which offer was conveyed by Krishna their Ambassador.. representing on their behalf... Such a proposal was acceptable and supported by all (while Duryodana was the silent spectator initially).. Karna alone vehemently opposed it... saying Pandavas had no legal claim nor moral right to even stay within Duryodana's Legitimate Kingdom. Enthused by such instigative encouraging and justifying words from his trustworthy Friend, ... Duryodana declares that he would not allow to Pandavas even a Pin-head space of property ... which was exclusive to Kauravas only.

Thus all the peaceful efforts came to an End... because of one single sole interference of KARNA ONLY..

... To Continue..

vir

19th April 2005, 12:14 PM

can somebody clarify :

Dhridrashtra was elder to Pandu and was as such the rightful successor to be the King....However, since he was visually impaired...Pandu was crowned the king....to act in his elder brothers place.....so he was just an acting king.....

Being Dhridrashtra's eldest son, was Duryodhana not entitled to be crowned as the next king?........How does it matter that Yudishtra was born ahead of Duryodhana..........

Also , by lineage, Yudishtra and other other Pandus were not the bloodline of Pandu..... In that case how can they lay any claim for ruling the country..

viggop

19th April 2005, 01:52 PM

Vir
discrimination against the visually challenged was not against the law then!!!
Atleast duryodhana could have given back the Indraprastha which pandavas built after they came back from dwelling in the forest for 14 years.he could have kept the hastinapura to himself but he refused to give even a pin head of land.
Greed and jealousy will always lead to downfall.

Badri

19th April 2005, 02:20 PM

In fact, according to the prevailing Dharmashastras of that time, a son born blind, deaf or otherwise impaired was automatically disinherited!

Raghu

19th April 2005, 03:54 PM

Dear Sudhama Sir,

Yes, what Karna did was adharma in our view, ie supporting his evil friend Duryodhana, that was Karna's dharma according to him.
he thought, to pay Duryodhana for bringing him up, he would sacrifice his life, no matter what, and that is exactly what he has done. so according to him he has accomplished his dharma.

this why I find dharma so confusing :? :? :? , what is dharma to one may be an adharma to others, I don't find any concrete platform for dharma.

Could you please enlighten me on this. :?

thank you

Sudhaama

19th April 2005, 11:59 PM

"vir"

// Dhridrashtra was elder to Pandu and was as such the rightful successor to be the King....However, since he was visually impaired...Pandu was crowned the king....to act in his elder brothers place.....so he was just an acting king....//.

Pandu was not crowned as an ACTING-KING... but as a King himself... because Dhrithrashtra lost his chance... as also his lineage heirs ... as per the then existed Dharma-Sasthra ... However Sasthras were NOT RIGID on the matter but gave enough room for flexibility of options.

// Being Dhridrashtra's eldest son, was Duryodhana not entitled to be crowned as the next king?........How does it matter that Yudishtra was born ahead of Duryodhana..//

In fact Mahabharatha fight was in between the TWO GROUPS OF HEIRS... one by the latest Monarchy and the other Ex-Monarchy.... Both have their own points of justifications...

That is why... on the advice of Krishna... Pandavas were prepared to share half of the Empire equally amongst Kauravas and Pandavas... as the right of Pandu on one side and the same equally for Dhrithrashtra on the other.

// Also , by lineage, Yudishtra and other other Pandus were not the bloodline of Pandu..... In that case how can they lay any claim for ruling the country..//

In the Property or Kingdom ownership... such consideration is immaterial. .. especially when there was no competiotor for Pandavas... as the Pandu's born children.

The most interesting Basic-factor in Mahabharatha is... that behind every odd or untoward development ...

... there was a hidden mistake or blunder by one of the Key- Persons ... Good or Bad.... without which there would not have been any Epic of Mahabharatha at all.... a Warning Lesson to Humanity. eternally

One such best example of the BADs...is... the INCONSISTENCY of Bheeshma.

At the earlier juncture...Bheeshma turned down the proposal to make Dhrithrashtra as the King...because of his physical handicap...

... and so his younger brother Pandu.. was enthroned (Pandu had NO legal-right.. to occupy the throne... being younger to Dhrithrashtra)

But while the similar consideration came once again... after Pandu's death... Dhrithrashtra's Physical-Handicap was ignored and was made as the SECOND KING... after his younger brother Pandu..

.. But Bheeshma found out a solution.... by making Dhrithrashtra's brother Vidhura ( an intelluctual warrior) as the King's adviser...

Whatever it may be ... both the Resonings are INCONSISTENT. as well as INTRA-CONTRADICTORY...

If the former justification was Right and Proper... the latter one cannot be so since contradictory... and Vice-versa.

The starting point for all the subsequent confusions was this BLUNDER. of RIDICULOUS Self-contradiction... by the Wise Senior Leader of the Heirarchy.

But most of the Scholars do not contribute to such a Negative view on Bheeshma, but interpret his actions and thoughts in a Positive Healthy way... on which we will see later.

Sudhaama

20th April 2005, 12:08 AM

"viggop"

// discrimination against the visually challenged was not against the law then!!! //

No Question of Discrimination... It is the matter of COMPETENCE TO EFFECTIVELY PERFORM THE DUTY of a King / Emperor.... more than the factor of his BIRTHRIGHT.....

Because.. Peoples welfare shoud not be in jeopardy due the Kings Handicap... either physically or by competence to be the Proper Ruler.. to carry out all his duties efficiently.

Pandu was preferred over Dhrithrashtra...by the Advisory-committe of Scholars... considering all the relevant factors in totality... not only the Visual handicap of Dhrithrashtra.

There have been several cases in the History and Puranas... where the Eldest brother was not enthroned... but one of his younger brothers... on consideration of the comparative suitabilty amongst different brothers and such heirs... to rule over the Kingdom... safeguarding the reputation of the Ancestry... defending the country confronting the probable attacks from the Enemies.. and so on.. as applicable to a Ruler.

// Atleast duryodhana could have given back the Indraprastha which pandavas built after they came back from dwelling in the forest for 14 years.he could have kept the hastinapura to himself but he refused to give even a pin head of land.//

Because of Karna's Strong objection ... to allow Pandavas to reside within the Duryodanas country... even though the nation of birth for Pandavas too.

Pandava Vana-vaasam... 14 years? .... No.. That was in Ramayana. But in Mahabharatha.. it was 13 years... (12+1 )

//Greed and jealousy will always lead to downfall.//]

Yes... with any amount of SUPPORTING- MIGHTS ... one may acquire..!!

There we can see the God's Hand working behind and against such nefarious Forces... especially as the RULER

Sudhaama

20th April 2005, 12:37 AM

"Raghu",

// what Karna did was adharma in our view, ie supporting his evil friend Duryodhana, that was Karna's dharma according to him….. he thought, to pay Duryodhana for bringing him up, he would sacrifice his life, no matter what, and that is exactly what he has done. so according to him he has accomplished his dharma.…. I find dharma so confusing :? :? :? , what is dharma to one may be an adharma to others, I don't find any concrete platform for dharma…Could you please enlighten me on this. :? //

Karna’s sincere “ Sense of GRATITUDE “ .. is No doubt quite laudable

..And his spirit of INDEBTEDNESS as well as the accrued sense of Duty of repayment towards all the benefits he got from his Duryodana ... .There is NO ADHARMA in it

Even in his Sacrifice towards such a NOBLE-CAUSE on one side ..OK

But at WHAT COST?... There arises the Question of DHARMA- SANGATAM .. a Clash between Two sorts of Dharmas. Which one to be PREFERRED?

There only Karna. SLIPPED and committed a BLUNDER of ANTAGONISING Dharma

Can anybody kill his own Son. UNJUSTLY?....just to save his Sheep ?

Raghu

20th April 2005, 05:08 PM

Dear Sudhama Sir

"Raghu",

Karna’s sincere “ Sense of GRATITUDE “ .. is No doubt quite laudable
..And his spirit of INDEBTEDNESS as well as the accrued sense of Duty of repayment towards all the benefits he got from his Duryodana ... .There is NO ADHARMA in it

Of course, there is no adharma in it

Even in his Sacrifice towards such a NOBLE-CAUSE on one side ..OK

But at WHAT COST?... There arrives the Question of DHARMA- SANGATAM .. a Clash between Two sorts of Dharmas. Which one to be PREFERRED?

that was exactly my point, how does one decides what is dharma in a situation like that (Dharma Sankatam), does the situation, environment and circumstances play a part in it?

There only Karna. SLIPPED and committed a BLUNDER of ANTAGONISING Dharma

Can anybody kill his own Son. UNJUSTLY?....just to save his Sheep ?

sorry, but who killed, his own son? :shock:

Sudhaama

21st April 2005, 09:35 AM

"Raghu"]

// Sudhaama :-- But at WHAT COST?... There arises the Question of DHARMA- SANGATAM .. a Clash between Two sorts of Dharmas. Which one to be PREFERRED?//

// Raghu :-- that was exactly my point, how does one decides what is dharma in a situation like that (Dharma Sankatam), does the situation, environment and circumstances play a part in it? //

It is very Simple… Keeping the Mind (Heart) and Wisdom at equal plane of Yardstick we have to measure the Pros and Cons of a Problem evaluating on the basis of One after another Dharma … one after another imagining ourselves in the other man’s position also… so to say by the Moral-approach. We can easily get an Answer… which Dharma-criteria… is preferable under a particular situation.

Some such situations do arise in our day to day life to a lighter or heavier degree time to time.

For Example…imagine..

You’re the responsible G.M of a Major Company… suddenly you get a call from your boss at another Country … to start immediately by next flight… for attending a Crucial-meeting… for which all concerned feel your personal presence and participation… is quite imperative and inevitable

Whereas on the same day… you have already planned to receive your prospective Son-in-law from Overseas …a long awaited guest… of highly competitive offers…

What will you do… since you are caught in between Two parallel Dharmas… one the Official-duty and the other your Family duty… especially your daughters Future…her married life… under such dilemma… depending upon the circumstances you may decide.by preferrence.

But if thesituation is such that in one of the cases… some eventuality of Sin is attached… that one has to least preferred… How ?

An Orphan boy got his life shaped by a … Rich man…. Which lead him to become the Senior Police officer at the same Town… So the Boy takes a Vow that he will pay back to the Rich man… for the Gratitude in his future.

But surprisingly…One day that Rich man is caught Red-handed by the Police-Officer… with a clear proof for his anti- national activities… a serious Crime deserving the worst punishment for any Criminal… What should the Boy do ?

Should he forego his Police-duty and pay his gratitude by helping a Criminal to escape?... A case of Dharma-Sangatam.. In brief…

(1)Swaya-Dharma: One’s own interests… the Basic, Elementary Dharma…

(2)Griha-Dharma: Duty to Family interests, Wife and Children – Higher to (1)

(3)Pithru-Dharma… Duty to Parents… Greater than 1 & 2

(4)Karthavya-Dharma:- Duty to Profession… Greater than.. 1 to 3

(5)Samaaja-Dharma … Duty to the Society… Greater than 1 to 4

(6)Raja- Dharma: Duty to Motherland.. Living Country & Rulers :- Greater than 1 to 5

(7)Sathya / Deva-Dharma… Moral-Code. .Duty to God : GREATEST of all

// "Sudhaama… "There only Karna. SLIPPED and committed a BLUNDER of ANTAGONISING Dharma… Can anybody kill his own Son. UNJUSTLY?....just to save his Sheep ? //

// Raghu :-- sorry, but who killed, his own son? :shock //:

It is only an Analogy… imagining one’s own Two sorts of Possessions under jeopardy… when he has an option to retain only one amongst the two…either the Sheep or his own Son… which is GREATER for him amongst the Two.?

The next important Questions

(1) Just because Duryodhana gave the Deserted … Forsaken. Karna a Helping hand … a Succour at his crucial moments of dire crisis .

Did Duryodana deserve to be Karna’s Friend with the Consequence of Paying a HEAVY PRICE by Self-sacrifice and the further worst for Karna ?

(2) Why Duryodana supported and helped Karna... contrary to all others?... Was it for rendering Justice to him?.. Kind-hearted?... Sense of Friendship?

Raghu

21st April 2005, 02:26 PM

Dear Sudhama Sir,

Your posting on different types of Dharma was highly informative, thanks a lot

(1) Just because Duryodhana gave the Deserted … Forsaken. Karna a Helping hand … a Succour at his crucial moments of dire crisis .

Does Duryodana deserve to be Karna’s Friend with the Consequence of Paying a HEAVY PRICE by Self-sacrifice and the further worst for Karna ?

Duryodhana never deserves friend like Karna

(2) Why Duryodana supported and helped Karna… contrary to all others Was it for rendering Justice to him?.. Kind-hearted?... Sense of Friendship?

Never, it is for his own selfish reason, he wanted some one to defeat Arjuna as Defaeting Arjuna was like Defeating the Pandavas, he found the perfect warrior for that, hence he used the situaution wisely, was Shakuni behind this wise decision, I don't think duryodhana was wise or cunning enough to make decisions like this :shock:

viggop

21st April 2005, 05:54 PM

Sudhaama Sir
Thanks for your posting on various types of dharmas.Nice to know that Swaya dharma is the least important

Raghu

21st April 2005, 05:58 PM

Sudhaama Sir
Thanks for your posting on various types of dharmas.Nice to know that Swaya dharma is the least important

I did not know there were this many types Dharmas' :roll: :shock:

Raghu

22nd April 2005, 08:21 PM

Lord Krishna has been cursed by a Rishi called Uttang, did any one know this, after the war is well and over, Lord Krishna Returns to dwarakai, on the way he encounters couple of demons, after destroying them, he hears the Meditation vibration of Rishi Uttang, so the lord stops and pays him a visit, the Rishi gracefuly recieves the lord with great love and affection, but the rishi suddenly found out that Lord did not stop the Mahabharatha battle, he curses the lord, the rest tobe continued on Monday.

I will tell you what the curse is after watching Ramanand Sagar's Krishna today,....

Raghu

22nd April 2005, 08:24 PM

Sudhama sir,

so when you are in a dharma sankatam, you choose higher type of dharma, right?

Which category did Karna's dharma fall into?

thanks

Sudhaama

22nd April 2005, 08:43 PM

"Raghu"

// "viggop".... Sudhaama Sir...Thanks for your posting on various types of dharmas.Nice to know that Swaya dharma is the least important//

// I did not know there were this many types Dharmas' ://

NOT .only..." There.... WERE... "... "But... THERE ARE ...". Existing Now too...

.. 32 (Thirty-Two) Varities of Dharmas... prescribed by the Vedic- Dharma- Sasthras.. which were sincerely adopted by the Ancient Indians ... several thousands of years back itself...

... while the rest of the world... is understood to be comparatively far behind in Culture as well as Human Emanicipation and Advancement... ..

... by which News...the Advanced standard of Indian Culture OVERWHELMIMG .... all other World Human-Cultures can be understood and discerned properly....

... so appreciated by the Non-Hindu overseas Research Scholars

... Especially they wonder that such an advanced Healthy mind Indian people of yester-era had ....

.. so that there is also one Dharma.. exclusively towards NURTURING other Creatures like Ants, Snakes, Crow and such other petty creatures as well...

...apart from patronising... Nature... like pouring water to at least one SHADE OR FRUIT-GIVING Tree every year...

... .a..." LIVE AND LET LIVE POLICY".... by Co-Operation with Nature.

Out of such prescribed Dharmas I have mentioned here only the Seven -Dharmas...the Salient ones... relevant to the context.

Dharma means ... ARHAM ... in Tamil, the high and uncompromisive HUMAN-VALUES ...

... which has been accentuated ... all through the various Tamil- Scriptures.. irrespective of Religion... more than the Overall Indian Vedic Culture.

viggop

23rd April 2005, 11:41 AM

Raghu
Lord Krishna wanted the war to happen.He did everything for that.What was the curse of the rishi on Krishna? I'm curious to know.

sanjay

25th April 2005, 03:27 PM

Friends,
I have one sincere request. Please do not pass remarks on the 2 epics - Ramayana & Mahabharatha. They are not just stories but acts that are ingrained in the faith of the devout hindu.

Qs like whether Lord Rama was right in klling vaali from behind a tree, whether Lord krishna did the right thing by covering the Sun & assisting Arjuna in killing abhimanyu's slayer are superfluous. Every act has a reason.

Dr.Rajagopa;lachari rightly remarked that these epics are like mother's milk & beyond any human questioning.

I hope the readers consider the sentiments of many others like me & desist from passing judgements.

geno

25th April 2005, 03:36 PM

Raghu

25th April 2005, 05:25 PM

Raghu
Lord Krishna wanted the war to happen.He did everything for that.What was the curse of the rishi on Krishna? I'm curious to know.

Continuing ....

Rishi Uttunk,was about to curse Lord Krishna ,as the rishi got angry by the fact the lord being able to stop the war did not, Rishi being a great scholar, forgot about the truth for split second and became controlled by human emotions like ego and anger, due to this he forgot about the 'Maya' concept and that the Lord is standing infron of him, and he was about to curse, but Lord Krishna explains about dharma, karama and destiny, the rishi realised his false ego and surrendered unto the lord, and he asks the lord, he wishes see the Vishvaroopa of Lord Vishnu that Arjuna once enjoyed. The lord agrees to this and shows his Vishvaroopa and asks the Rishi, if he wishes anything for him. The Rishi replied, I want water for the community as the were was extreme water shortage, so lord grants him the boon and departs.

But the lord wanted to play a little trick on the Rishi, as he knew that Rishi Uttung was still under the influence of maya, as he often had false ego. So Lord Krishna asks Indran to disguise him self as a dirty old man and take some water to the rishi, so indran went with water, but the rishi would not even look upon his face as the rishi only saw the dirty perishable maya body of this atma, Rishi refuses to drink the water,and virtually chase the dirty man, suddenly he realised his false ego and his attachment to maya ,and begs mercy from Lord Krishna and lord Krishna forgives him and remove the maya from the rishi's mind and continues the journey back to dwaraka, there is another meaning will encounter with Balram in dwaraka, ..to be continued

Raghu

26th April 2005, 09:38 PM

Continuing....

Lord Krishna arrives at Dwaraka, he has been greeted with a tremendous reception by Balram, as Balram runs towards the lord Krishna to hug him, Lord Krishna has been confronted by yet again by some demon, Balram confronted the demons and killed the demon (NOTE, THE DEMONS DID NOT HAVE ANY WEAPONS, when they were killed)

This was a trick played by Lord Krsihna, to teach Balram anna a lesson.
Remember How Balram was annoyed and was fuming by the fact that Bhima killed an unarmed Duryodhana, Balram has done exactly the same thing, which Bhima has done before.

Ok, here is the tricky bit, was there any dharma in Balram's and bhima's act, regardless of the fact that their opponent was devil, evil, ...etc?

Sudhaama

27th April 2005, 06:44 AM

"Raghu"

// Remember How Balram was annoyed and was fuming by the fact that

.... "Bhima killed an.... "unarmed"... Duryodhana" //

It is NOT CORRECT to say that Krishna wanted a War.. and so he machinised towards such a mass-Disaster by weaponry.

In fact Krishna tried his level best to bring out an amicable settlement... but failed..

.. On which Balarama too had to cut a sorry figure before Krishna... accepting his failure.. in spite of His Greater Voice on both sides.... especially with Kauravas... including the King Dhrithrashtra.

Krishna... as a last endeavour to avoid war...asked one by one of Pandavas and finally Draupadi... to suggest the suitable way to AVOID WAR...

Each one said different ideas ... suggesting to AVOID war...

... except... three... Arjuna, Bheema and Draupathi... FAVOURING WAR...

Yudhistra tried to convince them.. but miserably all failed... and had to put down his face .. on...

... the HOT WORDS OF DRAUPADI... that all because of him ... and no more COWARDICE..

And also...It is NOT CORRECT to say that Duryodana was UNARMED ...while he was hit by Bheema.

Two important factors ... we have to note here.

(1) It was the Conventional practice... by Yuddha Dharma...

... that at the last stages... after tiring the Enemy by series of Offensive attacks... (similar to initiation of a Game with Fast-bowling ... to be followed by Spin-Bowling)...

... the Next step used to be ...to weaken the enemy one after another... by eliminating his supports and allied strengths... like... losing his Chariot, Crown... his Defence-arms... then his Bow or some such weapon... with which... the combat is conducted...

... Finally making him a NIRAAYUDHA-PAANI (Armless)... as a Silent-Gesture of challenge...

... "Oh my Enemy... I have slashed down all your supporting strengths... Now Tell me are you going to continue the Fight... or accept the DEFEAT... and Surrender ... or RUN-AWAY... exhibiting your gesture...

... that you are accepting the Defeat to-day... but will come back next day fully armed to fight with greater Strength...

... while such a gesture of CHALLENGE from a defeated Enemy... may be accepted by the opponent... or Not.. since left to the Victor's discretion.

... But without conveying any message by any sort of gesture... but tries to retain back his strengths... or by any sort of Restoration or Revival...

... AT THE BATTLEFIELD... it is a challenge... which will be countered by the opponent... even though the Enemy be UNARMED..

... Since the Purpose of War itself... is either to DEFEAT OR ELIMINATE the opponent....

there is No place for Mercy or Sympathy or Humanitarian-spirit in the War-field.

that is the Reason... wars are always eschewed, avoided and averted by Wise people.

That is why Bheeshma could not defend in favour of his side... on the criticism of Duryodana...

... about the attack by Arjuna on Karna as well as by Bheema on Duryodana.

(2) During Bheema-Duryodana Fight...Why Krishna waited until last ...

... and SUDDENLY INTERFERED... at what Stage?... Why Then?

if Krishna would not have interfered...

Duryodana's last moment CHEATING Bheema... would have lead to the

... UNJUST... DEFEAT AND DEATH of Bheema... as innocent VICTIM...

.. of Duryodana's FINAL ATTEMPT... Cowardice FOWL-GAME. What was it ?

Raghu

27th April 2005, 04:18 PM

Dear Sudhama sir thanks for the perfect explanation.

I have question for you, Lord Krishna & Arjuna goes on a pilgrimage to calash to do a thalami to wards the PARAMATHAMA Maha Iswar and get a boon (Weapon) to slay one warrior, This warrior had been granted a boon by Parama Iswar that he will be immortal (except on some condition), Gadotkaja goes to inform Duryodhana in his military camp, that Lord Krishna & Arjuna have gone to Kailash to get a boon from Maha Iswar to slay this warrior? Duryodhana laughed at Gadotkaja, insulted him and sent Gadotkaja back.

In the next day, during the battle, lord krishna plays a trick yet again, he turns day into night using his sudharsana chakaram, so Duryodhana & this other warrior were overjoyed by the fact, that Arjuna could not kill this warrior, out of this excitement, Duryodhana tells this warrior to come out of hiding and he does, and when he does Lord Krishna instructs Arjuna to shoot the arrow (Boon from Maha Iswar) at this warrior and carry his head towards his father and drop it on his hands/laps, so Arjuna does this. And the warrior's father blows into pieces.

who was this warrior? Was it King Jeyatrada? :?

viggop

27th April 2005, 05:04 PM

Raghu
I think it was jayatrada.This king got a boon from Shiva that he should be able to keep at bay other pandavas except Arjuna for 1 day in a battle.he does this successfully when Abhimanyu is inside the chakravyuham and other pandavas cannot save abhimanyu.So, Arjuna vows to kill jayatrada or kill himself by next day evening if he cannot succeed in killing jayadratha.
When kaurava camp comes to know this vow of arjuna,they try their best to protect jayatrada from hands of arjuna and succeed till Lord Krishna steps in and does the trick of causing the eclipse.

viggop

27th April 2005, 05:07 PM

Raghu

27th April 2005, 05:17 PM

There is one interesting thing here.There was another eclipse just before the war and Krishna causes this brief eclipse during the war.this has been used by some scholars to find out the date of mahabharatha.When in astrological history did 2 eclipses occur within few days of each other(i dont know the excat date difference). Since,this can be scientifically determined,some people tried to find the date of the mahabharatha war using this information in the epic

Oh yes, I remeber this from the Tamil Film Karnan, when two rishis are chanting vedic mantras along the river side, Duryodhana approaches shakadeva to ask a date to commence the war in which Victory will be for them, here Lord Krishna plays a trick for the eclipse to occur

Sudhaama

28th April 2005, 01:19 AM

My Dear Mr. Raghu,

One Request... Please read this Thread... right from the Beginning... as if you are A STRANGER reading for the first time.

Please tell me then... what you feel... about this Thread-matter you have made...

Do you find it interesting to read continuously... as the Topic on ONE SUBJECT.?

Don't you find it ..... as simply a BEGGAR'S SHIRT... without any Cogency or Continuity... or Mutual- Relevance...my dear Friend?

Jumping here and there... HAPHAZARDLY... AT RANDOM.. What is this CONGLOMERATION ?...

(Sorry for my BLUNT AND OPEN-CRITICISM... although with a healthy Intention as YOUR WELL-WISHER....(Repeat: "Your Well-wisher"))

Dear Mr. Raghu,...Is this a... THINNAI-PAECHU... or ... OOR- VAMBU- MADAM .. or Thunhukku- Thoranham... or REALLY a WORTHY FORUM?

Sorry to say... You are LEADING OTHERS also ... in your peculiar way of Scattered- presentation to the VIEWERS.... making them MAD

You are discussing about Karna... in the midway you leave him in the lurch and jump to Balarama... then that too left half-done... then over to Bheema... left incomplete... and then Krishna & Eclipse.. left midway ... then Lord Parameshwar... Ohm Nama-Sivaaya !!!! !!! !!!! !!!! !!! !!! !!!

In spite of my SPECIFIC REQUEST.?.... Pinpointing this Lacunae...

... in this BEAUTIFUL FORUM you have rightly started and WELL- PARTICIPATED by several Hubbers...

... in a VERY INTERESTING MANNER.... by individual post ONLY...

I have raised some questions ... at several places... wherever you have DRAGGED ME...

... and I am waiting for your REPLIES... from one and all the Hubber- participants...

... thus it will become INTERESTING in all respects.. ENSURING COGENCY.

After which I will Reply to those Questions I had raised ... on Karna, Krishna.. Duryodana... and so on.

I hope You or others will not mistake me... but will take in a HEALTHY- SPIRIT.

Raghu

28th April 2005, 02:50 PM

Dear Sudhama

Thank you very much for your not so NICE words, I am very serious about this, you will have to accept that my knowledge on this subject is very limited unlike your broad knowledge, I am just answering questions and postings bits from the greatest epic, It will be imposible for me to start the mahabharath story from the begining to end, perhaps you should write that, so all of us can learn from it, I just post my questions here for which I don't know the answers.

I seriously started this topic on an INNOCENt thought, well if you have been offended by this, then I am terribly sorry, as that was never the intention.

thanks

Sudhaama

29th April 2005, 05:30 AM

My Dear "Raghu"

// Thank you very much for your not so NICE words, I am very serious about this,.....I seriously started this topic on an INNOCENt thought, well if you have been offended by this, then I am terribly sorry, as that was never the intention.//

Once again I confirm my APPRECIATION for initiating this very Good Valuable topic... as a Separate thread

I reiterate that I am happy to note .... several people with Good knowledge are posting rich stuuf ... Quite-interesting by individual postings

I have never meant .. that I FEEL OFFENDED... Nor I offended others..

As one of the WELL-WISHERs towards the Successful continuation by making all concerned happy..

I commented only on the PERFORMANCE . AND NOT ON any PERSON.

So to say... the Present unpalatable TREND OF NON-COGENCY...

... Leaving every part of the Topic INCOMPLETE, being Left in the MIDWAY. .

... in spite of my repeated clarification... with UNFAILING. affection ... and Regard to all..

... I don't follow why you must feel upset by my Strightforward CRITICISM on the Unwelcome trend.... not only in the Readers' interest... but also others including you

//It will be imposible for me to start the mahabharath story from the begining to end,//

No Not that I mean.. But only COGENCY Without leaving any point taken-up INCOMPLETE

I request all my Friends here to reconsider my comments on the current Trend and try to make it duly purposeful by changing the Trend as you feel Proper and Better. Thanks

Sudhaama

29th April 2005, 06:09 AM

[tscii:432cda5977]
Duryodana’s FOUL- PLAY to KILL BHEEMA by Cheating.

Initially Krishna and Balarama were only the silent Spectators at the Battlefiled on the last day of war.... between Bheema and Duryodana with Gadhayudhas.

... until the Fight conformed to the Yudha- Dharma ... and...

Krishna did not interfere until the last moment... when Duryodana played a Cunning-Game.

On the persistent offensive onslaughts by Bheema.... Duryodana was becoming weaker.. since he could not face his Enemy's severe Blows... nor could counter effectively.

Then Duryodana declared ... “ Hae Bheema You know everybody has some part of the Body weakest than the rest of his Body. I will reveal the secret of my Weakest Spot of my Body... on which you can try to hit and defeat me .... And I challenge ... You cannot defeat me .. even then...

Whereas reciprocally you also must reveal your weakest Spot of your body... on which I will hit and defeat you... It is a challenge.. Can you accept my challenge and prove your might better than me?...

My weakest Spot in my Body is... my Chest .. ( IT WAS A LIE).. What about yours Bheema?

Bheema believed it ... and replied.... "OK I accept your challenge My weakest spot of my body is my Head (TRUE) Let us see... who is mightier... to withstand even by facing the hits at the weakest Spot of the body".

And immediately Bheema started hitting at the chest of Duryodana... believing his Enemy's words as true...

...but it could not make any impact because his whole body (Except Thighs)... was already FORTIFIED by Gandharis Spiritual-Look through her Naked-Eyes on him... just on the previous day.

Contrarily... Duryodana started hitting forcefully on Bheema”s Head... by frequent blows after blows... which could not be managed by Bheema...

He felt giddy .. since it was really his weakest part of his body... whereas Bheema's repeated hits on Duryodanas Chest were totally failing....

... and laughingly Duryodana stood Rock-like

All the Spectators could note Bheema getting weaker and weaker.

If left in the same trend.... within a few more minutes... Bheema would have collapsed... culminating in his death as well as Pandavas defeat....as innocent victim of Foul-play

But at that critical stage.... Krishna PATTED on his Thigh... and shouted...towards Bheema... “ Well-done Bheema... Go on”

... and repeatedly patted his own Thighs.. smilingly

Bheema was initially wonderstruck and confused... started thinking ..

..." What is it I have well-done?... Is Krishna mocking at me?’

Then in a few seconds he picked up Krishna's Clue of Patting his Thigh

.... Which reminded Bheema on his Vow... to hit at Duryodanas thighs

.. and that Blood will be applied on Draupathis Hair... a TOUGH-VOW

.... "Until then I will not drink water with my hands but only the water which sprinkles up, due to the Gadhayuda-blow on water-surface..."

Thus awaken by Krishna's Clue cum Reminder... Bheema managed to raise up himself with much difficulty... and hit a severe blow on his Enemy’s thighs which proved fatal

Thus making Duryodana’s FOUL-PLAY an Adharmic-attempt for fetching
a CHEAP-VICTORY through CHEATING.... by means of... ..

... Exploitation of .. the RIGHTEOUSNESS of Bheema.

Such a nefarious Intention... of wicked Duryodana... .was THWARTED. .

... by the Timely-intervention of Krishna.
[/tscii:432cda5977]

madhu

29th April 2005, 07:43 AM

Hi Raghu !

I heard a story often from my thatha patti !!

When Duryodhana wanted to fix an auspicious date for the war , Krishna goes to the river bank to perform "amavasya tharpan" ( sorry if thepronounciatoins are wrong). But the day was not Amavasya.

Duryodhana thinks that it is amavasya and fixed some date. But Suryan and Chandran got confused and came there to ask Krishna about it. Then krishna tells them that on Amavasya sun and moon will be together. And just they are together.. it is indeed Amavasya.

Is this story anywhere in Mahabharath ? Or just "paatti sonna kadhai" ?

EdenWoods

29th April 2005, 12:33 PM

I support HHWalrus and Blahblahst here.
.
Our Indian Epics/Puranas are no doubt among the greatest in the World. We all share this view.
.
But then, some chap comes running in, tries to appropriate them, and pollutes them with their funny views and ideology. The very intention is to encourage abuse and bad-blood...
.
I would advise such people to leave our Hinduism and our holy Epics alone, and restrict themselves to their typical hate-filled ideological stuff...
.
Let us not run down what each of us holds divine.

sanjay

29th April 2005, 04:11 PM

Eden,

Correction. Hehewalrus & blahblah are anti hindu.

If U post a topic supporting hindusim, U are pro RSS, fascist & communal, according to them.

For them, anti hindu is secular.

viggop

29th April 2005, 06:07 PM

Friends
Let us keep this topic to discuss Mahabharatha.Thanks everyone for your understanding.

Sudhaama

30th April 2005, 12:11 AM

FOUL- PLAY by Duryodana... was DEFEATED.by Krishna ... (Continued).

"Why should you Krishna interfere.... and FAVOUR.. one side... It is NOT FAIR... So far you were NEUTRAL... Now you have become PARTIAL" .. said Balarama ... blaming Krishna.

"Yes... Even now I continue to be Neutral only... But I ask you one question on the RUDIMENTARY- PRINCIPLE in Life .....

....When somebody is trying to easily win over the other ..

... by means of CHEATING.... or telling UNTRUTH .. or .EXPLOITING the RIGHTEOUS persons .... .

...and such other WICKED-APPROACH... rendering INJUSTICE unfairly towards an INNOCENT ....

... Will You KEEP QUIET... just watching the Fun... as SILENT- WITNESSES... ?

... similar to the Great Dhrithrashtra, Bheeshma, Drona, Karna ... and such other persons considered to be of DIGNITY....

... Had SET A POOREST EXAMPLE ... in the Human-History... by allowing a SHAMEFUL INCIDENT...

... to openly derobe a Woman.. ESPECIALLY THE INNOCENT...Draupathi a respectable Queen ..in the Royal-assembly itself... which is the Court of Justice.

... and thus seriously defamed and insulted the Dignity of Throne committed to render due justice... to any common SUBJECT of the country....Not only Draupathi... Is it Not the Worst Crime asnd Shame?

... Under such crcumstances... while the due dignitaries of power in the high Chair... behave unfairly...

...Don't you have any Moral-duty to INERFERE .. correct the wrong path...?

I did only that ... RIGHT PATH... as per my Duty... as a NEUTRAL DIGNITY.... common for both.

... by correcting the False-message of Duryodana... and indicating the TRUTH...

... that the Fact is... his Weak-Spot is Not his Chest... but his THIGHS.

Had he not told that LIE ... intending a FOUL-PLAY... I might not have interfered at all.

.. So I conveyed the TRUTH... CORRECTING UNTRUTH of Duryodana...

... so as to NULLIFY the probobility of UNDUE Victory for adharma...

If I follow your Advice.. to keep quiet allowing the Wicked to act as they like...

... then nobody on Earth ... will believe .. God ... nor the Righteousness nor the...

Basic Life-Gospel: SATHYAM-AEVA JAYATHAE (Truth Only will TRIUMPH).

Thiru

30th April 2005, 12:31 AM

Sudhaama,

I've heard this before somewhere but want to confirm it..

As per rules of the war, a person should not attack the other person below the hips... when bheema hit dhuriyodhana on the thigh, that was supposed to be against the rules of the war... The reason that bheema hit dhuriyodhana on the thigh was because that was the area that dhuriyodhana covered with banana leaf (as per krishna's instructions) when gandhaari opened her eyes...

Also, did aswathama had to use the conch to signal end of the day's war for some reason? I know there was some trick involved in that one too...

Madhu, that was not some patti story.. its infact true.. krishna tricked sun and moon to meet to create amavasya, eventhough sahadev had given a different date for the same..

hehehewalrus

30th April 2005, 01:10 AM

Thiru,
as per Amar Chitra katha, bheema broke Duryodhana's thigh since during the infamous game of dice, after Draupadi was sold, Duryodhana slapped his thigh indicating she sit on his lap having become a slave. A furious bheema recollected this during the war...
Thats what ACK said.

Thiru

30th April 2005, 01:19 AM

hehehewalrus

30th April 2005, 06:10 AM

Thiru,
The south indian and north indian versions of indian epics have quite a few differences. As such ACK has been the best and most reliable. They have well researched narrations and in 85-89 ran a complete series on the Mahabharata running to close to a 100 issues.
Gokulam is incorrect, that I know :) Tinkle and ACK are both from India Book House, so contentwise they are the same.

Sudhaama

30th April 2005, 07:29 AM

"Thiru"

// Sudhaama... As per rules of the war, a person should not attack the other person below the hips... when bheema hit dhuriyodhana on the thigh, that was supposed to be against the rules of the war... The reason that bheema hit dhuriyodhana on the thigh was because that was the area that dhuriyodhana covered with banana leaf (as per krishna's instructions) when gandhaari opened her eyes..//.

There is a Yudhdha-sasthra... part of Raja-Dharma-Sasthra... which stipulates... varying YUGA-DHARMAS... varying from yuga to yuga...

For example Vanavasam in Ramayana 14 years... Mahabharatha 13 years.

In Thretha-Yuga... hitting at a NIRAAYUDHA-PAANI... was Unlawful...

But In Dwapara-yuga ... Kali-yuga... allowable.

Similarly... hitting below the hip was unlawful until Thretha-yuga End..

But subsequently during Dwapara yuga... it depends on the Vow taken at the time of completing his learning under the Guru...which too varies from one Guru to another... because the Guru... or the so called Teacher of Warfare... have been given the option. suiting to the situations.

When Arjuna... hesitates to hit at Karna... being a Niraayudhapani... attempting to manage to restore the stuck-up chariot...

( since his Charioter Salyan... had deserted and eloped... leaving Karna helpless)

Krishna urged Arjuna to attack Karna... irrespective of his armlessness... since the object of war itself is to make the Enemy... HELPLESS... and Accept the Defeat....

... Or else the Enemy to be eliniminated by Finishing him... as per Law of War.

Similarly... in case of Duryodana... on the instigation of Karna... Bheema patted on his Thigh and called Draupadi to sit on his lap... because she had become his Slave....

Then Bheema... became FEROCIOUS... on this Insult... took a vow.. that with bhis Gadhjayudha... he will hit on the same thigh... and kill him... until then ... will not drink water by hands... but only the sprinkled water caused by hitting on the water-surface... with the Gadhayudha..

Draupadi took a vow... that she will not tie her Hair... until.. she smears the blood from Duryodanas thigh (which was shown by Duryodana as her seat) on her hair..

Both these vows were fulfilled by Bheema... by hitting at Duryodanas thigh... and applying the blood on Draupathis Hair.

Knowing this possible Danger to her son... Gandhari... tries make him stronger by passing on her spiritual powers through her Eyes... but due to Krishna's trick.. Duryodana... violated his mother's instructions to stand before him naked, after his morning-bath...since he covered his Upper-Leg-regions with Banana-leaves... as per advice of Krishna...

Thus his Thighs... could not be fortified... and became VULNERABLE... to suit the Vows of Bheema and Draupathi... all because of the timely trick played by Krishna

Part of this story... although I had written in this thread... just yesterday... I have repeated here once again for your convenience.

Please go through that posting... which gives more details and justifying points... on the embarassing circumstances... due to theFOUL-GAME played by duryodana... an attempt to cheat and kill Bheema...was solved by TRUTHFUL means.

Stories vary from author to author.... so we should rely opon the Moola-paatam ... Mahabharatha by Vyasa... which only is authentic... based on which I have furnished the particulars here.

Thiru

30th April 2005, 07:51 AM

Thanks sudhaama for the clarification..
btw, I read vyaasar virundhu when I was young but my parents strictly told me that I shouldnt read it because not anyone can just read it...
Me and my sister didnt heed to their advise and started reading it... and we both suddenly started getting boils in our body all of a sudden and people started blaming our reading of vyasar virundhu for it... Though it seems crazy and funny now, we had to drop our efforts in reading the full book.. has anyone heard something like that?

Sudhaama

30th April 2005, 08:00 AM

Mr. Thiru,

"Vyasar-virundhu' by Rajaji has been republished... in the name ofMaha-bharatham by Rajaji.

He has correctly written strictly conforming to Vyasa... without any addition of his own Fictions... but true to the Original of Vyasa .. unlike some others . who have deviated ..from the Original ... at a few places.

So Vyasa Virundhu is wholly dependable... but it is only a brief version in a story-form... without the aspect of justifications.

Sudhaama

30th April 2005, 08:09 AM

Mahabharatham at Home?

There is a unfounded belief ... amongst Tamilians... that the Mahabharatha-upanyasam should not be conducted at Home... and if violated it will cause undue misunderstandings amongst brothers of that Family.

But Ramayana is not so... since auspicious for the Family... if Upanyasam conducted at Home.

But I have not heard from anybody in my life... about the Stipulation of

... BAN TO READ MAHABHARATHA by anybody at Home...

Only the Upanyasam is banned ... Not reading the Book... or discussing...

Your Illness has nothing to do with reading Vyasar Virundhu...

ILLNESS after .READING it.... Kaakkaa utkaara Pazham vizhundha Kadhai...

Thiru

30th April 2005, 08:24 PM

Your Illness has nothing to do with reading Vyasar Virundhu...

ILLNESS after .READING it.... Kaakkaa utkaara Pazham vizhundha Kadhai...

I know.. but when you are 10 years old, you dont have the say :)

Sudhaama

30th April 2005, 10:43 PM

In my Opinion ... Illustrated Indian-Epic-Stories ... aiming towards educating children ... are in some aspects APPRECIABLE... especially for their venture to enlighten the Budds of tender-stage... and as healthy-seeds.. on our Great Indian-Heritage...

... But at some places... their versions are far-deviating from the Originals

... as also in some respects ... TOTALLY WRONG AND MISLEADING...

Perhaps because they give more importance to the Subsidiary Literatures sprouted from the Original-Epics....

So to say ... they are based on Thulsidas Ramayana.... in case of Raamayana... in preference to Valmiki...

How can I say... some parts .... of Pictorised Children's stories... as WRONG .... and MISLEADING ?

.... [In this country America... these Children's Stories in English... especially... illustrated..... on Indian-Heritage... are VERY POPULAR... amongst Indians here...

And with my embaraasing expereience with my Grand-children.... who have grasped the contents verbatim... as it is in the books... are raising some WISE-QUESTIONS to me..... I find often placed in embarassing position ... Neither I am able to say... they are Wrong... Nor I am able to explain to them... in a convincing manner... logically... and perceptibly to Wisdom.]....

For example in Ramayana.. it says... that the King-Janaka ... sent calls to different countries... inviting the various Raja-kumaras

... to prove their best Challenge ... to TIE-UP THE CHORD... of SIVA-DHANUSU... a TOUGH-TASK...

.. on a STIFF BOW... So difficult and challenging on the Might of a Warrior.... even to BEND IT... just the Primary-process.... for the sake of tying its Chord.... and then hold it at the same stage with a single hand... that too... LEFT HAND... leaving the RIGHT-HAND FREE...enabling to Tie-up with the other end of the Bow....

Whereas the pictorial children story says... that the challenge was to BREAK THE SIVA-DHANUSU...

Will any King INVITE THE WARRIORS... to BREAK a Bow.. a Holy-weapon

... Especially... the BLESSED ONE ... received... from Lord Siva Himself?

Valmiki says the former... and further justifies... that Rama... proved His Might one step higher and beyond... the MINIMUM STIPULATION...of only ..JUST TYING UP THE CHORD...

Valmiki also justifies... why unusually and unconventionally... Janaka stipulated this Bow-Challenge?...

Because .. one day while Seetha-devi was playing the Ball-throw and Catch-play along with her Friends in the Garden...the Ball thrown by Seetha was so forceful... that within a few seconds... it reached INCREDIBLY too far... the very REMOTE... Aayudha-Godown .. through its window.... and beneath the Box of Siva-dhanusu....

...All the play-mates followed by Servant-MALE-MEMBERS...searched and found it hiding beneath the Bow-Box...

But none of them ... EVEN JOINTLY... could not lift or even just to move the Bow-Box ...

... Then Seetha said... what all of you the MALE MIGHTY WARRIORS... employed to protect we the ladies... Can't you even lift this Single Box...?

.. Saying thus... she CASUALLY LIFTED UP the Bow-Box just with her LEFT-HAND ... and Retrieved the Hiding-Play- Ball.

,,,Just at that moment... the King Janaka passing by at a distance... noticed all this Episode.. and got AMAZED to note such UNUSUAL AND INCREDIBLE VALOUR of... an AFTER-ALL A Weaker-Sex... LADY!!!..

Then he .. decided... to carve out a plan of... Judging-Test on Might and Valour... on the same Bow....

.. to select the APT MATCH ... of UNUSUAL MALE-MIGHT... to suit...

... for his Daughter Seetha...of Proven... UNUSUAL FEMALE-MIGHT.

Which one amongst these Two different versions are BETTER CONVINCING?....

Similarly...such UNREASONABLE... and MISLEADING VERSIONS...

...on.. Mahabharatha too... have spread in the Society... contrary to the Originals.

For examnple... I ask one Question ...on Mahabharatha...??????

While Yudhistra or the so-called Dharma-puthra... the eldest brother of Pandavas... were getting CHEATED by the onslaughts of several Wicked- tricks... especially during the Chess-game...

... Dharma innocently and ignorantly was YIELDING to all the NEFARIOUS MACHINATIONS... of his Enemy... in the Robe of so called ...Bothers

... and thus became a SCAPE-GOAT ... and pitiable VICTIM... not only himself but also his affectionate brothers... who honour their eldest brothers words as Veda-Vakku ...

... On such situations... what was the reaction of the brothers... ?

Was it CORRECT and JUSTIFIED... just to SUCCUMB... ignoring one's OWN- WISDOM?

Here Vyasa... and other Authors differ.

hehehewalrus

30th April 2005, 11:05 PM

Whereas Amar-chithra-katha says... that that the challenge was to BREAK THE SIVA-DHANUSU...

Same thing was shown in Ramanand sagar's Ramayan(Feb 1987).
Congrats to Arun Govil :D

jaiganes

30th April 2005, 11:32 PM

thiru wrote

btw, I read vyaasar virundhu when I was young but my parents strictly told me that I shouldnt read it because not anyone can just read it...

It is your parents way of telling you to stay away from adults only stories. Considering the subject matter of Mahabaratha it definitely classifies as something only mature people can comprehend. In fact the stories are so tumultuous that even mature minds are not able to digest major portion of mahabharatha.

Sudhaama

1st May 2005, 01:22 AM

"jaiganes"

....Considering the subject matter of Mahabaratha it definitely classifies as something only mature people can comprehend. In fact the stories are so tumultuous that even mature minds are not able to digest major portion of mahabharatha.//

Yes.. that is the GREATNESS cum Mystery of Mahabharatha... giving adequate...

... Scope for HUMAN -WISDOM-APPLICATION... to understand the DIFFERENCE...

... Between the TRUTH and REALITY... in Life ... where we meet Beastly-Men... alongside Godly Human too.

... Indian-Epics are the Great Eternal Lessons for the Global-Humanity...

If Good-people ... do mistakes... it leads to BLUNDERS from others...
.. is the EXLUSIVE Message of Ramayana...

... where Nobody amongst the Main-characters were basically the BAD ...including Kaikeyi, Mandharai.. and even RAVANA..as also Dasaratha...

But all these people ... slipped a little out of the way at one stage... which lead to a big History and Purana...as Ramayana...

Even the Lord Rama... God... slipped...ONLY ONCE... which lead to worst consequence.... of capture of his Divine-wife...

Thus God himself shows to posterity... Oh my dear Children.. How others and I burnt our fingers... due to our mistakes which lead to subsequent Blunders and unnecessary sufferings for all...

... while at some other stages others and I have stood like Rock ... to establish .

..... the High-values of RIGHTEOUSNESS... and such other Rich Human principles...

... to make YOUR OWN LIFE MEANINGFUL... WORTHY...and SUCCESSFUL

Similarly... if Bad-people come to power... what will happen?... ..

... MAHABHARATHA.... in which Ramayana-Lessons are subtly INCLUSIVE.

And even with all the various sorts of Mights and Supports ... cunning-games ... Foul-plays...Invincible Greats by Dharmic-power coupled with Warrior- Talents ... all those cannot Win ...

And ... in such cases... God will DEFINITELY INTERFERE by coming as the Total-supporter to the Righteous section of Mankind...

... and that God will SELFLESSLY go to any extent to Protect the inerests of such Righteous people... establishing the Moral-Values... in Human Life.. as a Society... irrespective of His fetching ILL-FAME.

... Further showing that God will even accept the BLAMES...UNDUE CRITICISM... for the sake of Righteous people...

...and will even be preapred to become a SINNER BY RECEIVING the Sins of others.... and suffer for it unduly....

... just to save RIGHTEOUS PEOPLE... including Pandavas and Karna.(the Right-Man at the Wrong place)

"You my dear Children on Earth... better take the lessons".....God Says and Shows.

... as ETERNAL-LESSONS by action more than Words ... Divine Message through Mahabhaaratha

Raghu

2nd May 2005, 05:12 PM

Whereas Amar-chithra-katha says... that that the challenge was to BREAK THE SIVA-DHANUSU...

Same thing was shown in Ramanand sagar's Ramayan(Feb 1987).
Congrats to Arun Govil :D

HHW, Ramanad sagar's Ramayan was made in 1987 :shock: , what about his other epic 'Krishna' was that filmed in 1987 too, have you seen this.

Dear Sudhama sir,

Thanks for the clarification about Dhuriyodhana and bheema, please bare my mistakes, as I post everything based on Ramand Sagar's Krishna, Tamil Film Karna and last but not list books by 'His Divine Grace Sripala Bhakthivedananta Swami Prabhuda'.

Now that Dhuriyodhana & Bheema, Karna & Arjuna issues have been cleared, please answer some of this questions.

1) Who was Shishupala?

2) Why was Kripachrya not allowed to command the kaurava army, after Karna, why was Aswathama appointed as the commander?

3) Why didn't barberik(bheema's grandson, gadotkajah's son), take part in the war, but he was able to see the war through his divine eyes like Sanjaya :?

4) what was Karna's Father in law's name, did he take part in the battle?

thanks

Raghu

3rd May 2005, 04:16 PM

Sudhama ji,

Please reply to my PM asap, thanks

a.ratchasi

4th May 2005, 12:44 PM

I came across this online version of Mahabharatam. It's translated by a Kisari Mohan Ganguli.

The common English translations usually begin with Santanu (SECTION XCV) but this online version goes beyond that.

Mahabaratha (http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/maha/index.htm)

Do note that it is highly comprehensive.

Raghu

4th May 2005, 08:02 PM

A.Ratchasi,

thanks for the link.

Sudhaama

4th May 2005, 10:20 PM

Thanks to .Ms. Ratchasi for posting the useful INFORMATION for the Hubbers

"Raghu"

// (1) Who was Shishupala?... (2) Why was Kripachrya not allowed to command the kaurava army, after Karna, why was Aswathama appointed as the commander?.....(3) Why didn't barberik(bheema's grandson, gadotkajah's son), take part in the war, but he was able to see the war through his divine eyes like Sanjaya :? ....(4) what was Karna's Father in law's name, did he take part in the battle?//

Dear Mr. Raghu,... You know..... on every major Subject... similar to Mahabharatha.. carrying valuable and intricate mysterical Substance imbued or implicated... openly or subtly hidden... for anybody... there arise several Questions...

.... broadly to be classified... under the Captions.... WHAT-?.... WHY-??............HOW-???

"What"... part of Questions... may be known to many... but remembered sharply..

.. even on the insignificant part of the Subject by some like... Mr. Badri 9999999999999*... !!!...

.. And perhaps he may be able to answer if you ask him... any such Questions like.... "What is the Name of Nakula's Brother-in-law... and How many children he had... and What are their Names?..."... on which points... I am BLANK..

Alternatively.... You can try Online... as Ms. Ratchasi has quoted hereabove....But...as I have already told you... I don't pay much attention to such Miscallaneous aspects. The areas I am interested to convey, as also discuss with you all, are on...

... WHY-? and HOW-??...sections only... which approach alone can lead us towards the better side of the subject... more interesting containing the most purposeful substances.... worthy for Life.

... from this Greatest Moral-Epic on Truth Vs Reality in Life... alongside the Lessons from various challenges dramatised by multifaceted Characters.

//... Amar-chithra-katha says... that that the challenge was to BREAK THE SIVA-DHANUSU..//
//Same thing was shown in Ramanand sagar's Ramayan(Feb 1987).... Congrats to Arun Govil //

We have to remember that the Programme you are referring to, was in Hindi... mainly intended for North-Indians... for whom Sant Thulsidas is more important than Valmiki and Thulsidas Ramayana is deemed authentic and Greater than the Original-text... Valmiki Ramayana... We cannot blame or Criticise or under-estimate anybody on such a spirit... People are so dedicated to Thulsidas Ramayana... more than anything... Rather it is their Faith we have to HONOUR... being a Religious aspect.

So anybody cannot deviate from Thulsidas amongst such people ..and if violated... especially if it is in Hindi medium and even in any language... and pushed amongst North-Indians... such a story will have NO MARKET.. especially in the Hindi-belt.. Such is the People's high veneration to the Great Sant Thulsidas.

A lot more to say HIGHLY about Sant Thulsidas... I will say later at an appropriate place...

Almost all the Regional authors in other Languages... including Kamban in Tamil.. have deviated from the Original content of Valmiki.... suiting to their individual angle and outlook... perhaps.... compatible to the respective Regional peoples' unique Psychology.

As per the Original Texts Ramayana and Mahabharatha.... by Valmiki and Vyasa... Rama and Krishna are shown on both sides ...as God by Spirit on one side...as well as an ordinary Man by thoughts and weaknesses on the other side...

Whereas Kamban depicts Rama... as an EXEMPLARY ... IDEAL... HUMAN ... with nil-weaknesses...as well as Seetha... the MODEL IMMACULATE WOMAN... in a greater degree than the picturisation by Valmiki...

Similarly... Vyasa... depicts Krishna as an EMBODIMENT OF VIRTUES even under the worst Critical-moments... SELFLESSLY...

... while Villiputhoorar charactereises Krishna...as a Complex-character of Highest Divinity coupled with Most EMULATIVE- HUMAN to a greater degree than that of Vyasa.

In Literatures and Epics... such varying outlooks by different Authors commensurate with the fertility of their Thoughts and Imagination... are quite common ... and rich enough to enjoy the various sorts of Mosaic-beauties of Literature alongside such other parallel perceptions. relevent to Humanity.

//Now that Dhuriyodhana & Bheema, Karna & Arjuna issues have been cleared, please answer some of this questions.//

How do you say so... .even after noting my mention under Karna... as ...."TO CONTINUE"... And on Duryoodana too... a lot more

...and on Arjuna... the Great Siva-Bhaktha... well-graced by Him... in different forms... especially by granting Paasupadha-asthram... for which Arjuna could go to Siva-lokam... as well as accompany Krishna to Vaikuntam... To and fro.. an unimaginable previleges for Human-beings...

Oh ! ... I have not even started so far ... a lot lot lot to say on that ANOTHER Complex-character... Arjuna...Lessons for Human-Life

Raghu

5th May 2005, 02:16 PM

a.ratchasi

6th May 2005, 07:21 AM

1) Who was Shishupala?

Raghu, Rukmini was to be wedded to Sisupala by her evil brother Rukmi, though the maiden herself was very much in love with Krishna. Krishna comes just in time and saves Rukmini from marrying Sisupala. Thus, the animosity between Sisupala and Krishna grew further as Sisupala was not fond of Krishna even before.

That's the primary reason why Sisupala insulted Krishna during Yudhisthira's Rajasuya when Krishna was chosen to grace the Agrapooja.

Raghu

6th May 2005, 07:25 PM

Surya

8th May 2005, 04:37 AM

EXCELLENT THREAD!!! Although I haven't participated much, I'm a vivid reader of this thread. And it's rememinded me of many facts about Mahabarath which I had forgotten lately. :thumbsup:

Querida

8th May 2005, 08:49 AM

Thanx A.Ratchasi for the english version..will be sure to read up on it! :D

Sudhaama

9th May 2005, 09:03 AM

Can God be CURSED by anybody...?... And Can God DIE.. ?

Yes... both these mysteries have occurred in Mahabhaaratha... in case of Lord Krishna.. who was cursed by Gandhari... which had befallen on Him and His posterity innocently...

And this is the only Awathaara... where God Himself DIES during the Awathaara.. that too a cruel-death !!

How then Krishna deserves to be named as God or God's incarnation?

A Punyaathma or a Saint cannot be cursed and if cursed ... it will boomerang back on the Curser.... Then about God it is needless to say.. that it will definitely boomerang by the multifold degree.

But it has not... in case of Krishna .. Why?

Until Mahabhaaratha War... Krishna was immaculate... free from even the least extent of Sin.

Whereas... after Krishna received the Sins and Virtues of Karna...as Dhanam... Krishna became a Paavi (Sinner)... similar to any Ordinary man on Earth .

So Curse can reach an ordinary Man Sinner... easily...the dire consequence of which had to be unduly faced by Krishna... just because of His good intentions to save Karna from an indefinite stage in between Life and death on Earth....

But for Krishna's grant of Mukthi to Karna... he would have been rotting on Earth as a handicapped... Valetudinarean... with the support of a littlle quantum of Punya(Virtues) he had gained on one side...

...alongside the comparatively large amount of Sins on the other side...

Such grave sins since taken over by the God Krishna... He had to die out of Cruel punishment as an innocent victim for an inadvertent hit by a hunter

Thus God Krishna had sacrificed Himselves... just to save an INNOCENT AND IGNORANT Criminal Karna.. basically a Noble-Man.

viggop

9th May 2005, 10:33 AM

Sudhaama Sir
Is not Krishna's death also a part of HIS divine play? When he felt the need to leave the earth, he shed this mortal body.As per the law of Karma, the hunter who shot the arrow aiming at Krishna's toe was Vaali in his previous birth.Rama killed Vaali by foul play and he too had to die likewise according to Law of Karma.

According to some versions of Ramayana, Rama too died by committing suicide by jumping into river Sarayu.

Raghu

9th May 2005, 03:49 PM

Can God be CURSED by anybody...?... And Can God DIE.. ?

Yes... both these mysteries have occurred in Mahabhaaratha... in case of Lord Krishna.. who was cursed by Gandhari... which had befallen on Him and His posterity innocently...

yes this happened after the war, when Ghandari, dhiritharatchar, kunti and lord Krishna visits the battle field, and ghandhari was very upset by seeing many perished bodies, and the weeping of all the widows, mothers,..etc.

And this is the only Awathaara... where God Himself DIES during the Awathaara.. that too a cruel-death !!

How then Krishna deserves to be named as God or God's incarnation?

yes, but GOD has taken an avatar as a human, his death proves that no body escapes from the vicious cycle of Karma

A Punyaathma or a Saint cannot be cursed and if cursed ... it will boomerang back on the Curser.... Then about God it is needless to say.. that it will definitely boomerang by the multifold degree.

But it has not... in case of Krishna .. Why?

Until Mahabhaaratha War... Krishna was immaculate... free from even the least extent of Sin.

Whereas... after Krishna received the Sins and Virtues of Karna...as Dhanam... Krishna became a Paavi (Sinner)... similar to any Ordinary man on Earth .

Yes, one becomes a sinner, when one deprives the property of another

Raghu

9th May 2005, 06:04 PM

According to some versions of Ramayana, Rama too died by committing suicide by jumping into river Sarayu.

Yes, I saw that bit Ramanad Saagar's Ramayan, but I did not know Rama Committed suicide :shock:

Sudhaama

9th May 2005, 09:08 PM

"viggop"

//....According to some versions of Ramayana, Rama too died by committing suicide by jumping into river Sarayu.//

Oh ... how painful it is to hear this sort of CHEAP look ... on the Divine-approach!!!.... Similar outlook may also give a like-meaning that Seetha jumped in Fire..... Twice.... to commit Suicide!!!"

According to Valmiki... Rama invited all the people who were with him... including the whole lot of Ayodhya people... asked them to PURIFY themselves... by getting the ablusions with the Punya-Nadhi Sarayu River...

... and Rama bestows all of them Mukthi / Moksha... the Liberation from further births....

Except Hanuman... who wants to preferably SERVE in Earth... continuing his duties for the Devotees for EVER...

And Dasaratha... deemed UNFIT at that stage... for Moksha... but only SWARGA..

... followed by subsequent Rebirth on Earth... to clear off his Karmas. during Rama-Awathaara.

Raghu

9th May 2005, 09:34 PM

viggop

9th May 2005, 10:03 PM

Thanks Sudhaama for this clarification. Sorry if I had pained you by my meagre knowledge and false interpretation of the story.

Sudhaama

10th May 2005, 06:22 PM

[tscii:4bd6b79c2d]
Is .Sarayu-River. of such a SANCTITY to get PURIFIED from ALL Sins?

For this Question our Acharyas render a beautiful reply. Worthy for Human-Life.

If we want to get milk from the Cow we can get it ONLY FROM ITS TEATS. And Nowhere else even though the Milk is the Transformation of the Cow’s Blood spread over its whole body.

Similarly even though God’s every part of His Body is Holy for us we can get His Grace ONLY FROM HIS HOLY-FEET.

Krishna says in Bhagawad Geetha

Sarva-dharmaan parithyajya …“MAAM-YAEKAM SARANHAM” vraja
Aham thvaa Sarva-Paapaebhyoa Moksha ishyaami MAA- SUCHAHA.

to mean “ When you are placed in such a GRAVE SITUATION unable to decide what to do LEAVE IT TO ME by Surrendering at my FEET. I will save you from ALL YOUR SINS and also ..Liberate. DO NOT WORRY .””

… A High Sense of Hope and Assurance… by God to Humanity.

Same sense applies here in case of Rama who took all his family –members as also the Ayodhya People along with Him to Sarayu-River…. by Leading them

… Rama FIRST walked into the Sarayau-River… then… STANDING WITHIN Knee-deep water . addressed all His followers

… All of you Come Now… take BATH in this Punya-Nadhi which will purify you free from all Sins thus Qualifying you to attain Mukthi / Moksha following me thereto.

How could He say so?... Because Rama was standing on the River-bed.. His holy-Feet IMMERSED in Water

Because of contact of His Feet with the water while the people concurrently take bath His Grace reaches them to purify free of Sins.

Thus all the people could get QUALIFIED to accompany Rama to His Abode Vaikuntam.

The Secret behind “Mukthi” Liberation from SINS and Cycle of BIRTH or..

while under. UNSURMOUNTABLE DIFFICULTIES in Human-Life.
[/tscii:4bd6b79c2d]

Thiru

10th May 2005, 06:52 PM

Raghu

10th May 2005, 07:22 PM

Sudhaama,

In mahabharatha there is a sequence when Hanuman meets Bheema.. Can you elaborate on the significance of this meeting? Also, I read somewhere that Hanuman and bheema were almost like brothers (hanuman was born to vayu & bheema was born by the grace of vayu)...

Yes, Lord Krishna wanted get rid of bheema's ego, so during the Pandavas's vanavasa,
he resquests Hanuman, to take an avatar as a very old & weak monkey, so hanuman ji did
and was sitting , under a tree, bheema came in contact with him, and he had to cross hanuman ji,
bheema full of ego, starting saying how greater warrior he was and this old monkey does not know him and respect him,
all hanuman ji said was, I am an oldand weak monkey, I am unable to get up, please move my tail and go pass me, bheema thougt that a greatest warrior like him was being insulted by an old monkey.
so he got angry and tried to move the Old monkey's tail and he could not even move it at all, he realsied that this monkey is indded a mahaatma, and appologises for his sin and hanuman ji shows his true form and blesses bheema.

Raghu

10th May 2005, 08:53 PM

Thiru,

Similarly Arjuna's ego was devasted by Maha Paramathma Maha Iswar in the form a Hunter, during the same vanavasa.

Sudhaama

10th May 2005, 10:01 PM

"thiru" :

//In mahabharatha there is a sequence when Hanuman meets Bheema.. Can you elaborate on the significance of this meeting?//

// Also, I read somewhere that Hanuman and bheema were almost like brothers (hanuman was born to vayu & bheema was born by the grace of vayu//

Hanuman being a Vishnu-bhaktha... used to volunteer... to correct if any Vishnu-devotee... goes out of the way either by thoughts or actions.

And He felt... Bheema being a Vishnu-bhaktha... was slipping towards a wrong direction of... Head-Weight... which is one of the Greatest Inimical qualities to be curbed off... for any Devotee.

So Hanuman intentionally lied down across the path by which Bheema used to pass by for taking daily bath.... prior to Pooja.

On seeing an Old Monkey obstructing the way...

"Hae You Monkey keep off the way"... Bheema shouted...

"Oh.. Being very old ... I am unable to lift-off my Tail... If you want your way... You can make way Yourselves... by shifting my tail out of your way."... Replied Hanuman.

Angered by these words.. Bheema kicked off Hanuman's Tail... He felt much painful as if he had kicked a Rock... Then he tried to Lift it for shifting... but Could not...

Then Bheema became furious... " Oh You are a Magician... playing with me?"... saying so he lifted the Gadhayudham... which hit back... Bheema himself... making him .. bewildered..

Then Bheema asked .."Hae Monkey tell me why you are delaying my Vishnu-pooja?"

"Oh!... Vishnu-pooja... can you perform carrying such a HEAVY-WEIGHT on your Head?"

" What heavy Weight?"

"Ego... Greatest Obstruction in the Devotional path... for any devotee... Even though You are performing Pooja sincerely to Lord Vishnu daily... it will not fetch you the due result... nor you can get the Grace of God... until you think you are great... If you feel you are Great .. show your might with me in any way ... either by Knowledge or by Physical-Might"

"Oh .. You are not an ordinary Monkey as I was thinking of you so cheap... then I thought perhaps you are a Magician in the disguise of a Monkey... that too wrong I have understood now... because...

You showed me your physical-might first... now you are quoting Dharma-sasthras too... which proves that you cannot be just any ordinary person.... since you could OVER-POWER even me... the Invincible warrior.. in both the ways.. Please tell me who you are.. and why you are coming in my way?"... asked Bheema

" Oh I see.. If I show God here... will you worship Him?"... saying so Hanuman showed... Lord Vishnu... in his Chest.

Bheema was amazed to see the same Vishnu idol there.... which he used to worship daily.

Then Bhema realised that it as not just a Monkey but a Mahaan...

So Bheema shed tears and prostrated at the feet of Hanuman... Immediately Hanuman picked him up and embraced...

Then Vayu-deva came there and said... " I am happy to see both of my Sons... you brothers... have come together"... and He blessed them

Raghu

//...Yes, Lord Krishna wanted get rid of bheema's ego, so during the Pandavas's vanavasa,
he resquests Hanuman, to take an avatar as a very old & weak monkey, so hanuman ji did
and was sitting , under a tree, bheema came in contact with him, and he had to cross hanuman ji,
bheema full of ego, starting saying how greater warrior he was and this old monkey does not know him and respect him,
all hanuman ji said was, I am an oldand weak monkey, I am unable to get up, please move my tail and go pass me, bheema thougt that a greatest warrior like him was being insulted by an old monkey.
so he got angry and tried to move the Old monkey's tail and he could not even move it at all, he realsied that this monkey is indded a mahaatma, and appologises for his sin and hanuman ji shows his true form and blesses bheema.//

Hanuman NEVER TOOK REBIRTH... nor Re-incarnation... the so called Awathara...

...but He is a CHIRANJEEVI... living ETERNALLY... so blessed by Rama.

Thiru

10th May 2005, 10:30 PM

Sudhaama,
Thanks.. but according to some versions, bheema goes to the forest in search of Sauganthika flower which Draupadi asks for...

Sudhaama

10th May 2005, 10:52 PM

Raghu

12th May 2005, 03:36 PM

"Thiru"

//. but according to some versions, bheema goes to the forest in search of Sauganthika flower which Draupadi asks for..//

Yes...Bheema goes out in search of Saugandhika Fllower for Draupathi ...

But his meet with Hanuman... was not in that Context ...If I remember correct.

Dear Sudhama sir, pls respond to my PM as and when time permits, Regarding your above post, as far as I know this incident did take place when bheema goes in search of Saugandhika Fllower, pardon me if I am wrong

Can you elaborate a bit more abou the incident in which Arjuna's ego was blown by Lord Maha Iswar?

thanks in advance.

Sudhaama

12th May 2005, 11:15 PM

"Raghu"

// .... as far as I know this incident did take place when bheema goes in search of Saugandhika Fllower, pardon me if I am wrong //

Mr.Raghu & Mr. Thiru

Yes .. After re-thinking I recollected that you are CORRECT.

// Can you elaborate a bit more abou the incident in which Arjuna's ego was blown by Lord Maha Iswar?//

Yes that is one of the THOUGHT-PROVOKING parts of Bharatham...

... conveying Rich-Moral behind...TAUGHT BY LORD SIVA... to Arjuna..

... applicable to anyone amongst the Mankind.... ETERNALLY.

I will take up that ... after Completing the Ones... already on Hand

Raghu

13th May 2005, 02:26 PM

Thanks Sudhama sir

As far as I remember, Maha Iswar comes as a Hunter in the Jungle, Maha Iswar and Arjuna kills a wild boar at the same instant, Arjuna picks up an Argument with mahaeswar, as to whom the boar belongs to, soon this develops into physical fight, arjuna used all his arrows, but failed miserably(huge blow for his archery skills and the ego related to this), he then picked up Gadhayudha fight, again failed miserable, and so son, at least Arjuna Tries Mal Yutham with Maheswar, when the Lord Hughed him Arjuna could not Move an inch, he realised this was no ordinary Man, and Lord Shiva appears in front of him and grants him a boon in the form of an asthram, what was the asthram?

thanks

Nitai

16th May 2005, 09:21 AM

I heard the story differently.

Arjuna was a famous fighter, and he attained fame by fighting many great demigods, including even Lord Siva. After fighting and defeating Lord Siva in the dress of a hunter, Arjuna pleased the lord and received as a reward a weapon called pashupata-astra.

Nitai

Nitai

16th May 2005, 09:33 AM

When Arjuna was hunting in the forest, so Lord Siva appeared before him.

A boar was killed in hunting and Lord Siva claimed that “I have done this killing, ” and Arjuna said, “No, I have done this.” So there was controversy and because of this there was fight between Lord Siva and Arjuna.

viggop

16th May 2005, 11:31 AM

In the mahabharatha, Lord Krishna asks Yiduishtra to go and get knowledge of dharma from Bhishma.Bhishma is one of the 12 people in the world who is supposed to know about all forms of dharma.Yudishtra goes and asks him a lot of questions on Hindu dharma and bhishma then says the Vishnu sahasranamam and answers Yudishtra's questions.
This is also one more very important part of Mahabharatha where Hindu dharma can be learnt.