The Greatest Indian Epic - Mahabharath

[viggop]

In that yagnam, Draupada wanted only a son.He will not want a daughter.But still Draupadi will be born first.She will be born as a mature girl and not as a baby, i think.Draupada will be unhappy because he wanted a son who can kill Drona.So, he'll continue the yagnam till a son is born.Finally, Drishtadyumna will behead Drona in the war.

[S.Balaji]

In that yagnam, Draupada wanted only a son.He will not want a daughter.But still Draupadi will be born first.She will be born as a mature girl and not as a baby, i think.Draupada will be unhappy because he wanted a son who can kill Drona.So, he'll continue the yagnam till a son is born.Finally, Drishtadyumna will behead Drona in the war.

My reference is from Rajaji's Vyasar Virundhu....
Draupadha will specifically pray to get one daughter who can marry Arjuna so that he will be with him forever...
and a son who can kill Drona...

[viggop]

Also, Dronacharya will ask for the panchala kingdom as a gurudakshina after their teaching is over.First the kauravas will try to get the kingdom but will lose.In the mahabharatha serial on TV, it'll be shown as if Karna will not be able tie the string on his bow in this war.I dont know how far is this authentic.Then, Drona will ask for the same thing from the Pandavas.These 5 people will go and destroy panchala army and capture Draupada alive.Though Drona will forgive him and give back the whole kingdom(?), Draupada will desire for vengeance following his humiliation.Actually, Drona's desire to capture Draupada alive is also vengeance because Draupada will humiliate him when he went asking for wealth.

[viggop]

It is sad that people like Dronacharya and Draupada , who were well versed with Vedas and other scriptures , well read during their times desire base things like revenge! :-(

[S.Balaji]

[tscii:2819070d8c]Viggop,

You are right… Drona and Durupadha were childhood friends and Durupadha will tell Drona that once he becomes a king he will help him.
Drona was a poor Brahman and after marriage , he will need money to sustain and will approach Durupadha.. However Durupadha will scold him saying that a King and an ordinary man can never be friends… and will send him away….
Drona will keep this in mind and will look for an opportunity . In further pursuit of money, he will approach Parasurama who at that time was distributing all his wealth to others as a dharma.
It will be too late for Drona when he reached Parasurama. However Parasurama will suggest that he has only the Divine Astras as wealth now and if Drona wishes, he will teach the entire range of Astra war fare… Drona will accept it and will learn the entire range of astra warfare and will go home.
One fine day, he will come across the Pandava and Kaurava princes trying to get the ball which fell in the well. Drona will ask Yudhistra if he can take it out, what he will give in return. Yudhistra will say that he will arrange for a good Bhojana for the Brahman…
Drona will just chant some mantras on a piece of stick and will throw into the well. He also form a range of continuous sticks and will easily get the ball out of the well.
Yudhistra will be amazed by the act of Drona and will ask him who he is. Drona in turn will say , please narrate this incident to Bhishma .. When it was narrated , Bhishma will realize that its Drona and will invite him to be the Guru and Acharya for both the groups… That’s how Drona will become their Guru….
Its an established fact that Drona liked Arjuna only as he was the most dedicated student…
As a gurudakshina , he will ask the entire group to win Durupadha as a revenge but nobody could beat him ( I mean Gauravas ). However, Arjuna will beat him quite easily and get the entire Panchala kingdom for Drona and will also capture Durupadha as a prisoner for Drona.
Drona , on seeing Durupadha will tell… Friend, you said earlier that a king and an ordinary person cannot be equal. Now I have beaten you… Atleast now you and me are equal..
And gracefully, he will half of the kingdom back to Durupadha… but alas Durpadha will not forget this incident and will look for revenge and rest is history..

The moral of the story probably is…..Even the best of the friends can become bitter enemies ….

Oops.. when we address a topic in Mahabaratha, we will have to go back by several steps to get into the root… Because Mahabaratha is such a fabulous epic , with small small stories with multiple sub stories and branches………….
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[S.Balaji]

It is sad that people like Dronacharya and Draupada , who were well versed with Vedas and other scriptures , well read during their times desire base things like revenge! :-(

Dear Viggop,

I too wonder on this aspect. Infact the great Chanakya also had mentioned about this friendship factor in Arthasastra...
He says, even the best of the friends may become worst enemies in life and in such an event, he says, it will be terrible...
He also says , one should never share the best of the secrets to anybody ... not even to his best friend and not even to his wife !!!
The reason he states, the best friend may become a worst enemy and whatever he had shared will be exposed totally
Sorry for this digression...

[viggop]

SO, Drona's guru is parasurama.I never knew about this one.I have heard about the story of how Drona will retrieve the ball using blades of grass powered with mantras.
What did Drona do with the other half of the Kingdom of Panchala? He would have no use of a kingdom.
Drona was invincible in war just like Bhishma.WHile Bhishma was defeated using Shikandi, Drona will be killed using his love for his son.But still not defeated in war.He'll bve doing tapas after throwing away his weapons and Drishtadyumna will kill him from behind using this oppurtunity.

[viggop]

Also, before the war starts, Bhishma will classify the greatest warriors on both sides known as mahaarthis(i think).He'll classify Arjuna and Bheema as mahaarthis in the Pandava side>Whom will he classfy in Kaurava side?
I think he'll not include Karna here so Karna will get angry at this insult and will not participate in the war for first 10 days(atleast till Bhishma falls).Will Bhisma classify Drona as a maharathi in Kaurava side? anybody has information on this?

[S.Balaji]

[tscii:edf3d47435]
SO, Drona's guru is parasurama.I never knew about this one.I have heard about the story of how Drona will retrieve the ball using blades of grass powered with mantras.
What did Drona do with the other half of the Kingdom of Panchala? He would have no use of a kingdom.
Drona was invincible in war just like Bhishma.WHile Bhishma was defeated using Shikandi, Drona will be killed using his love for his son.But still not defeated in war.He'll bve doing tapas after throwing away his weapons and Drishtadyumna will kill him from behind using this oppurtunity.

yes, Parasurama was the Guru to Drona for archery and use of weapons...
I think Ashwathama will be made the ruler of the half of Panchalam..

About Drona taking charge from the 12th day of the war.... I need atleast 2 days atleast to describe the destruction he made on Pandava army.. the kind of damage he inflicted on the pandava army was so terrible...that Krishna will summon the entire pandavas and will tell them clearly as follows :

IN WAR THIS BRAHMAN CAN NEVER BE DEFEATED... AND THE WAY HE IS CONDUCTING THE WAR , SOONER OR LATER.. YOU ALL WILL BE WIPED OUT AND WILL BE SMITHEREENS...
Better use AHARMA ways to eliminate him...

Followed by this, he will highlight the fact that Drona is very very affectionate towards his son Ashwathama and if somebody can tell a lie that Ashwathama is dead, Drona will not have any interest left out and it will be an easy task for us…
Nobody will come forward.. Infact Arjuna , as a true warrior, will refuse outrightly to utter any falsehood and that too to his Guru..
Even others will refuse…. Finally, of all the persons, Yudhistira will come forward… for the sake of kingdom…..
Ultimately, Bhima will kill an elephant by name Ashwathama and will run before Drona and will loudly shout saying that I HAVE KILLED ASHWATHAMA… but again he will lower his head in disgrace and out of shame…
Drona was about to use BRAHMASTRA at this juncture…. Knowing the terrible effect and the impact of this greatest of the astras, Yudhistra will be very concerned and also Krishna…
Drona on hearing the shouts of Bhima will not believe his words… He will refer to Yudhistra … the basic reason is … of all the persons, Yudhistira is well known for following truthfulness and dharma….
However, even Yudhistra will utter the biggest of the lies in the world by saying… ASWHATHAMA ATHAHA… ( loudly )…. KUNJARAHA ( low voice )…. But Drona will hear the first words only and will be totally down… He will lose all his interests now and will drop all his armoury and weapons and will sit in Yoga posture….
At this moment…. Drustadyumnan will storm in and will cut the head of Drona……

Thus , Drona will end his life….. its really a sad sad sad event…

Again, it goes to prove that the Pandavas could have never won the war ….but for the aharma ways they adopted to eliminate their KEY RIVALS…

I will do a separate posting on WHAT KIND OF DESTRUCTION DRONA INFLICTED ON PANDAVAS DURING THOSE 5 DAYS OF DRONA AS THE COMMANDER AND WHAT TECHNIQUES HE USED … especially the ploy to capture Yudhistra alive…



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[S.Balaji]

Also, before the war starts, Bhishma will classify the greatest warriors on both sides known as mahaarthis(i think).He'll classify Arjuna and Bheema as mahaarthis in the Pandava side>Whom will he classfy in Kaurava side?
I think he'll not include Karna here so Karna will get angry at this insult and will not participate in the war for first 10 days(atleast till Bhishma falls).Will Bhisma classify Drona as a maharathi in Kaurava side? anybody has information on this?

Actually its called .. MAHARATHI...

The most highly skilled of all warriors are called "elephant-riders" or in hindi "maharathi. A maharathi is said to be one who could safely defend himself against several thousand ordinary soldiers or cavalry men. An Atiratha is one who can defend himself against 10000 men. Athiratha is one who does the war by riding on a Chariot....
karna and Arjuna belong to that elite group .. Ofcourse Bhisma and Drona were the pioneers of that art.

One story goes like this...

Bheeshma knew long before that Karna is kunti's son and had high regards for him as a skilled warrior. Also, Bheeshma wanted somedbody who is equally loyal to Hastinapur like him and who can do the war in case he is out of the war... He preferred Karna as the best guy as he is already a good friend of Duryodhana and a skilled warrior as well who can match Arjuna arrow by arrow , astra by astra....
It was deliberate ploy by Bheesma to keep Karna away from the battlefield

In Kauravas... Bagadhathan was called a Maharathi.. .as he was well known for elephant fighting.... and he had the best of the elephants by name SUPRADHEEPAKAM...( I had mentioned about Supradeepakam earlier )

[viggop]

It is said that after uttering that lie, Yudishtra's chariot will also touch the ground.He was so dharmic that his chariot will be floating inches above the ground.

When Arjuna will be desperate to kill Jayadratha before the sunset, Drona will come and block his way.He'll challenge Arjuna to a fight.Krishna will advise Arjuna not to fight with Drona.There is no way he was going to win this fight with Dronacharya and that too within the evening.Arjuna will tell his guru that he wont fight him now and circumbulate around Drona's chariot as a mark of respect to his guru and continue his mission to kill jayadratha.

[viggop]

Balaji
Can you please elucidate about Dronacharya's plans to capture Yudishtra alive. I have heard about it.The reasoning was that if the leader is captured, there was no way anyone who is going to fight after this.This was the same logic used by Kumbhakarna when he captured sugriva and started walking towards lanka amidst the battle.
also remember, Drona and also Bhishma participated in the adharmic killing of Abhimanyu.

I think Abhimanyu even chides Drona that being a Brahman,he is following adharmic path in killing him.

[S.Balaji]

[tscii:f432727a30]
It is said that after uttering that lie, Yudishtra's chariot will also touch the ground.He was so dharmic that his chariot will be floating inches above the ground.

Sage Vyasar had mentioned about this Chariot of Yudhistira not touching the earth… There is a poetic touch to this …. Actually Dharmaputra ( as Yudhistira is called by the universe ) was so pure in his virtues and acts ( earlier he will be acknowledged by a Yaksha… you know the various questions posed on him and how he answered )
That his foot was not supposed to touch the GREEDY AND ADHARMIC WORLD…
So, when he uttered the falsehood to Drona for the sake of kingdom, Vyasar will mention that the chariot of Yudhistira touched the earth as he also became part of this adharmic world..




When Arjuna will be desperate to kill Jayadratha before the sunset, Drona will come and block his way.He'll challenge Arjuna to a fight.Krishna will advise Arjuna not to fight with Drona.There is no way he was going to win this fight with Dronacharya and that too within the evening.Arjuna will tell his guru that he wont fight him now and circumbulate around Drona's chariot as a mark of respect to his guru and continue his mission to kill jayadratha

When Jayathradha hears the news that Arjuna determined to Kill him the next day… he will slightly panic ( eventhough he was a skillful warrior )and will approach Drona ( Drona was the commander )… and will also ask Drona… What difference that you have made to Arjuna and others….. Drona will say that he gave the same type of training and education to all his pupils but Arjuna was more dedicated and hence he became an expert in archery …
Drona will also comfort Jayatharadha by saying that – Don’t worry… Tomorrow I will form a vyuga which will have a big force in the front and you will be the final one …
Thus Drona will form a formidable vyuga the next day in which DRONA HIMSELF WILL BE IN THE FRONT !!
Arjuna on seeing Drona will start the war… However, Drona will , in his customary style, will SHOWER on Arjuna with arrows… ( ambu mazai )…
Arjuna will find it extremely difficult to penetrate Drona… He will be very much concerned .. .so also was Krishna….
Krishna now will find a way out…. He will tell Arjuna that .. ONE CAN NEVER BEAT THIS MAN BY WARFARE… The only way to overcome him is to surrender to him…. Arjuna will take Krishna’s word as it is and will plead to Drona saying that…
RESPECTED GURU… YOU ARE NOT ONLY MY GURU… YOU ARE EVERYTHING TO ME.. YOU ALSO KNOW THE PURPOSE OF MY WARFARE TODAY… I DON’T WISH TO FIGHT WITH YOU TODAY…PLEASE ALLOW ME TO MOVE FORWARD.
Drona , on hearing these words of Arjuna will proudly allow Arjuna to pass beyond him…to reach his final destination … Jayathradha…

Actually this particular day of war saw some great great battle between Bheema and Karna
Purisiravas and Satyaki
Satyaki and Drona
Dhrusthaduymanan and Drona
Karna and Arjuna

Arjuna will find it virtually impossible to kill Jayathradha… but finally the ploy of Krishna will enable him…

TO SUMMARISE THIS... ARJUNA USED BYPASSING TECHINIQUE ON DRONA TO FORGE AHEAD !

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[viggop]

Drona will also be guarding the chakyavyuha formation.The pandavas(other than arjuna) will be unable to break or defeat him.Bhima and Yudishtra will be at their wits end.Jayadratha will guard the front of the chakravyuha.Abhimanyu(16 year old) will break the chakravyuha in lighning speed with his chariot and totally confuse jayadratha.Before jayadratha will regain his senses, abhimanyu will already be inside the formation much to the panic of Kauravas.Drona , being the commander of the army will ask jayadratha to protect the front side and he'll get inside formation to chase abhimanyu.Jayadratha , with help of boon of Lord Shiva will manage to keep the 4 brothers(except Arjuna) at bay for the entire day.
Inside the chakravyuha, Abhimanyu will be impossible to beat.Karna will deceitfully attack Abhimanyu from behind cutting off his bowstring.Then Drona will break his chariot,sword in sucession.Finally, son of dushashana will hit abhimanyu from behind with a mace and kill the 16 year old warrior when he was trying to defend himself with the chariot wheel.

[S.Balaji]

Balaji
Can you please elucidate about Dronacharya's plans to capture Yudishtra alive. I have heard about it.The reasoning was that if the leader is captured, there was no way anyone who is going to fight after this.This was the same logic used by Kumbhakarna when he captured sugriva and started walking towards lanka amidst the battle.
also remember, Drona and also Bhishma participated in the adharmic killing of Abhimanyu.

I think Abhimanyu even chides Drona that being a Brahman,he is following adharmic path in killing him.

Abimanyu's vatham took place after Drona took charge of the war... This happened after Bheeshma was down...Bheeshma hence had no role to play... but Abimanyu will face Bheeshma also and Bheeshma will be wondered by the skills of him and will mentally compare him with Arjuna ..

About the ploy to capture Yudhistria alive,, actually the original karta of this idea was Sakuni !! and through Duryodhana, they will request Drona to capture Yudhistra alive... by this time, both would have realised that like Bheeshma, Drona also will not kill any of the Pandavas and will try this ploy.
Drona will be extremely happy on hearing this from Duryodhana and will appreciate him.. He will also wonder that.. Yudhistira is such a great personality thats why he is called AJADHACHATRU.. meaning... someone who has no enemies..
Hence Drona will be in pursuit of Capturing Yudhistira...
He will start with a plan to divert the focus of Arjuna by launching agroup of SUICIDE SQUADS !! they are called Thirigarthas.... headed by Susharma...
As per the war rules, if someone challenges you to fight, you as a kshatriya will have to accept it and fight with him... Arjuna followed Susharma and will fight with him while Drona with his entire army will pursue on Yudhistira....
When on the first day, Drona was about to capture Yudhistira... Arjuna will surface from nowhere and will fight Drona very strongly.. THis will force Drona to retreat for a moment.....
Thats how that day will end

The next day, Drona will create Chakra Vyuga.... THE ULTIMATE VYUGA IN WARFARE WHERE ONLY ARJUNA KNEW HOW TO PENETRATE AND HOW TO COME OUT OF IT.

Alas, poor Abimanyu only knew how to enter but not how to get out of it.....

Yes, while dieing, Abimanyu will curse everybody including Drona ...as he will not have even a single arrow with him to fight but will be surrounded by the entire Kauravas..
Drona infact will tell Karna to cut the bow of Abimanyu from behind which Karna will do it immediately... They will kill the charioteer , the horses , etc etc and will fire on Abimanyu from all corners...

Finally, I think the son of Dushashan will kill Abimanyu when he is down and totally exhausted...

[S.Balaji]

Drona will also be guarding the chakyavyuha formation.The pandavas(other than arjuna) will be unable to break or defeat him.Bhima and Yudishtra will be at their wits end.Jayadratha will guard the front of the chakravyuha.Abhimanyu(16 year old) will break the chakravyuha in lighning speed with his chariot and totally confuse jayadratha.Before jayadratha will regain his senses, abhimanyu will already be inside the formation much to the panic of Kauravas.Drona , being the commander of the army will ask jayadratha to protect the front side and he'll get inside formation to chase abhimanyu.Jayadratha , with help of boon of Lord Shiva will manage to keep the 4 brothers(except Arjuna) at bay for the entire day.
Inside the chakravyuha, Abhimanyu will be impossible to beat.Karna will deceitfully attack Abhimanyu from behind cutting off his bowstring.Then Drona will break his chariot,sword in sucession.Finally, son of dushashana will hit abhimanyu from behind with a mace and kill the 16 year old warrior when he was trying to defend himself with the chariot wheel.

Its true... I think while I was typing the posting, you had already posted this ! pl see my earlier posting on this...

Yes, Karna under the instructions of Drona will cut the bow of Abimanyu from behind....

Yes, Jayathratha also had a boon from Lord Shiva that he will be invincible for a day....which he will use it on that day...

One small info.... while Abimanyu successfully penetrated and entered the chakravyuga... Jayathradha will also successfully close the breach caused by Abimanyu and will strongly resist the other 4 pandavas from following Abimanyu... This will render the poor guy helpless and will not have any support from Pandavas...

Just imagine a single person...Jayathradha countering the mighty 4 pandavas including Bheema......He was so strong that day...

Even the day of his death... he will not die so easily and will fight with Arjuna until the fag end of the day.. and it will be almost sunset when Krishna will apply his ploy....

[viggop]

Balaji
You mentioned that Krishna will absorb the Nayarana Astra of ashvatama.But I read, that Krishna will ask everyone in the Pandava army to bow down to it.If you attack the astra,it'll become more powerful.So, all the people in the pandava army will lay down their arms to mae the astra ineffective.Bheema will be the only proud but foolish warrior who will swing his mace against it.So, the astra will taget him.Arjuna will pull off the mace from Bhima's hand and Krishna will take Bhima behind his back.so, finally the astra will lose its meaning and become ineffective.

[S.Balaji]

[tscii:3b9a60f217]Actually the unfortunate death of Abimanyu had to be attributed to Yudhistira and Bheema as they were the ones who will encourage Abimanyu to lead them and penetrate the Chakravyuga and they will assure him that they will follow him ….
But as Jayathradha was so strong that day in the front, they will not be able to pass him and Abimanyu will have his fate sealed…
My point is…even otherwise, Abimanyu would have died as he had nobody to back him …..the Kauravas would have anyway killed him


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[viggop]

Actually,Duryodhana will provoke drona by saying that his love for pandavas will be so great that he wont kill them.Drona will be hurt by all this coming from a fool such as duryodhana.On the day of his death,he'll intrpspect his life. he'll know that he has become attached to worldy desries and accumulated lot of sins.that is why he has to hear harsh words from people like duryodhana.he had thrown all the dharmas laid down by bhishma during the war(like not fighting after sunset).he'll use powerful astras like brahmaastra on ordinary soldiers and will kill thousands of them.he had become adharmic and probably,he'll lose any interest on the war and will fight only for duty's sake on his day of death.

[S.Balaji]

[tscii:0e32fb0c67]
Balaji
You mentioned that Krishna will absorb the Nayarana Astra of ashvatama.But I read, that Krishna will ask everyone in the Pandava army to bow down to it.If you attack the astra,it'll become more powerful.So, all the people in the pandava army will lay down their arms to mae the astra ineffective.Bheema will be the only proud but foolish warrior who will swing his mace against it.So, the astra will taget him.Arjuna will pull off the mace from Bhima's hand and Krishna will take Bhima behind his back.so, finally the astra will lose its meaning and become ineffective.

I think I mentioned about Vaishnava astra which Bagadhathan will use against Arjuna … by chanting the mantra and will apply on Ankush ! as he will not have any other arrow left out, he will apply on Ankush…As it was SriVishnu’s astra , Krishna will bring himself before Arjuna and will absorb it.. It will become a garland to him !!
The astra which Aswathama used was Bramasiras… which he will use when the pandavas will try to catch him and he will emerge out of Sage Vyasar’s hut….


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[S.Balaji]

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Actually,Duryodhana will provoke drona by saying that his love for pandavas will be so great that he wont kill them.Drona will be hurt by all this coming from a fool such as duryodhana.On the day of his death,he'll intrpspect his life. he'll know that he has become attached to worldy desries and accumulated lot of sins.that is why he has to hear harsh words from people like duryodhana.he had thrown all the dharmas laid down by bhishma during the war(like not fighting after sunset).he'll use powerful astras like brahmaastra on ordinary soldiers and will kill thousands of them.he had become adharmic and probably,he'll lose any interest on the war and will fight only for duty's sake on his day of death.


Viggop,

I think that was a melodrama only … Drona did not use Bramastra during the war… but was about to use it …. Krishna will realize that Guru Dronacharya is about to chant the divine mantra which will destroy the entire universe… ( probably like today’s nuclear device ?? )
He will hurriedly summon the entire pandavas to utter that lie and rest is history.

I don’t think Drona ever used Bramastra before that in the war…. As it’s a destructive weapon.. the astra of Lord Brahma… the creator of living beings….

I also heard that Lord Brahma himself will appear before Drona and will advise him not to use the Bramastra as he is not following dharma but Drona will emphatically reject Brahma by saying that he he following his dharma to the Kauravas…..

Drona never let down Duryodhana during any part of the war as his commitment was total…
The only lapse he did was allowing Arjuna to by pass him enabling him to march towards Jayathradha… which otherwise, Arjuna would never have reached him as Drona was a master and nobody could beat him…







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[S.Balaji]

Incidentally, in the war, those who knew the art of applying Bramastra were :

Bheeshma
Drona
Karna
Aswathama

And

Arjuna

[S.Balaji]

[tscii:6732c9bac2]Viggop,

I have a query..

It appears very silly to me… as to how Karna was left alone in the battle field when he was the COMMANDER of the Kauvrava army… I know Saliyan ditched him and he left him in disarray but as per the war formation, the Supreme Commander is supposed to have back up of Chariots , elephants and other support if one chariot or support is lost …
What made Karna himself to get down from the chariot and try to lift it from the fateful pit…..is a mystery…..
He could have very well asked some army man or assistant to lift it…
Which means Karna was totally alone and isolated that moment ????
If you go through the way, the formation was given for Bheeshma and Drona, you will be amazed by the backup and the support they had ….
At one stage , Bheeshma will lose his chariot several times and will be replaced quickly by another one.
So also for Drona… Drona’s chariot will be destroyed by Bheema several times…. And will have back ups immediately…


Even Arjuna will wait for Karna to get back to normal position as after all Arjuna is a great warrior and he had high respect for Karna…
However, under the insistence of Krishna , he will fire an arrow on Karna to end his life…

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[viggop]

Karna's protoectors of the chariots like his son susharma will all be killed by Arjuna.Shalya will keep on pulling down the confidence of Karna.But at last, Shalya will say that only Karna can defeat and kill Arjuna.He'll also become commander of Kaurava army after Karna's death and will be killed by Yudishtra on 18th day.

Karna will spare the life of yudishtra twice on the day of death and also life of shadeva(or Nakula?) because of his promise to Kunti.

Karna will ask Krishna to stop goading Arjuna to send an arrow when he is lifting chariot saying it is against dharma.Krishna will laugh at this and ask Karna where was his dharma when Draupadi was disrobed(it was karna's idea), where was his dharma when he cut off the bow string of abhimanyu from behind, and what was he doing when duryodhana was scheming all the evil plans.Karna will know what Krishna said was true!

[viggop]

Dronacharya and karna will use brahmaastras on arjuna.when the war is over, Krishna will ask Arjuna to get down from the chariot(usually practice is for the charioteer to get down first).Arjuna will obey Krishna.Then , Lord Hanuman in the flagmast of Arjuna chariot will go away and Krisna will step down later. The minute Kirshna septs down, the chariot will brealk into pieces.Krishna will tell Arjuna that brahmaastras of Drona and Karna will hit Arjuna's chariot but because of his prescence and hanuman, their effect will be delayed.Once, they intend to leave the chariot for ever, it'll get destroyed.

[S.Balaji]

[tscii:cbd32b3bbb]
Dronacharya and karna will use brahmaastras on arjuna.when the war is over, Krishna will ask Arjuna to get down from the chariot(usually practice is for the charioteer to get down first).Arjuna will obey Krishna.Then , Lord Hanuman in the flagmast of Arjuna chariot will go away and Krisna will step down later. The minute Kirshna septs down, the chariot will brealk into pieces.Krishna will tell Arjuna that brahmaastras of Drona and Karna will hit Arjuna's chariot but because of his prescence and hanuman, their effect will be delayed.Once, they intend to leave the chariot for ever, it'll get destroyed.

Can you pls give the reference …

Drona and Bheeshma well before the war commenced will clearly tell Duryodhana that they cannot kill the pandavas as their love and admiration is equal to both Gauravas and Pandavas…however they will fight to the end and destroy the pandava army and will fulfill their duties…
I still have a doubt whether Drona could have used Bramastra as everyone knows that it would have killed Arjuna instantly…
But Drona was about to use it and that time only Krishna intervened and his ploy worked out ( uttering the falsehood )

I also doubt whether Karna had used Brahmastra… as at the time of chanting the mantra he would have lost memory as that was the curse by Parasurama ( oops… Parasurama was everwhere !! ) his Guru….that at the most appropriate moment in his life, Karna will forget to remember those divine astras ( including Bramastra )..

However all the powerful arrows of Bheeshma, Drona and Karna all … the Chariot will be absorbing due to the effect of Hanuman and Krishna’s presence….

Also, Krishna will ask Arjuna to come out of the chariot to teach him a lesson that it was not Arjuna who won the war but the presence of Krishna and the omnipresence of Hanuman which saved him from the likes of Bheeshma , Drona and Karna’s divine weapons….


[/tscii:cbd32b3bbb]

[Raghu]

I also doubt whether Karna had used Brahmastra… as at the time of chanting the mantra he would have lost memory as that was the curse by Parasurama ( oops… Parasurama was everwhere !! ) his Guru….that at the most appropriate moment in his life, Karna will forget to remember those divine astras ( including Bramastra )..

However all the powerful arrows of Bheeshma, Drona and Karna all … the Chariot will be absorbing due to the effect of Hanuman and Krishna’s presence….

Also, Krishna will ask Arjuna to come out of the chariot to teach him a lesson that it was not Arjuna who won the war but the presence of Krishna and the omnipresence of Hanuman which saved him from the likes of Bheeshma , Drona and Karna’s divine weapons….


[/tscii:d8e491cfb9]

Dear Balaji anNe

No Karna never used his bhramastra as he forgot the mantar chanting due to curse inflicted upon him by Parasuram.

as far as the chariot incident, is if I am correct, Lord Krishna will take Partha to remote place and will ask him to step down from te Chariot, as soon as both of them step down the chariot will blow up, Lord Krishna would say, it was the greatest Hanumanji who was protecting him by sitting as a Silai on the ratham from karna, huge blow for Partha's ego :D

[Raghu]

As far as I know only Arjuna and Aswthma used Bhramastra when they were fighting alone!

[S.Balaji]

As far as I know only Arjuna and Aswthma used Bhramastra when they were fighting alone!

Dear Raghu,

Ashwathama I think used Bramasiras.... not Bramastra...
Which was countered by Arjuna... this will take place after the war is over... and when the pandavas will be search for Aswathama...
He will come out of the hiding from Sage Vyasar's hermitage... On seeing the pandavas, he will pull out a grass and will chant the mantra which will become bramasiras... which Arjuna also will fire a counter....
WHile Arjuna, under the instructions from Krisha will withdraw it..Aswhathama will change the direction towards the womb of the wife of Abimanyu...intentions being that the entire pandava race should not have any successor..
However the Divine Grace of Krishna will protect the womb and Parikshit will be born....

[Raghu]

Dear Balaji AnNe,

Yes the incident that you have described above is correct, but I still, I think, they both used Bhramstra, pls pardon my ignorance if I am wrong, perhaps Viggop or Sudhama Sir can clarify this

[S.Balaji]

Dear Balaji AnNe,

Yes the incident that you have described above is correct, but I still, I think, they both used Bhramstra, pls pardon my ignorance if I am wrong, perhaps Viggop or Sudhama Sir can clarify this

Dear Raghu,

My reference is from Vysar Virundhu . Also from the great Dr. Mazoom Razaa ...
Also, there is a posting from Mr. HariKrishnan in Ramayanam thread on this...
Pl go through that as well as he had done a very beautiful analysis and also has given a note on WHAT CARE THE TEACHERS TOOK TO TEACH THE ASTRAS TO THEIR PUPILS...
Nice one from Mr. HariKrishnan..

[S.Balaji]

[tscii:4710381109]Dear Raghu,

Besides, I suggest you read the writings of CHO in Thuglag on Maharabaratham pesugiradhu… Wonderful analysis and presentation from CHO…
He had also mentioned about Ashwathama having used Bramasiras…
[/tscii:4710381109]

[viggop]

Balaji
Ashwatama will invoke the grass using the brahma siras mantra saying "Wipe out the Pandavas from the face of the earth".Arjuna will countyer it.Narada will get afraid about the destruction that these two could cause and will ask them to withdraw it.Arjuna will be able to withdraw it but Ashwatama due to his sin of butchering the sons of Draupadi will forget the mantra.I think the mantra will kill Parikshit's foetus which will later be brought back to life by Lord Krishna.
Seems Ashwatama was so beautiful and radiant before the war.he is considered as an amsa of Lord Shiva.But,when he kills the sons of draupadi in the night, all his tejas will be gone and he'll look horrible and old and will hide in ashrama of sage Vyasa.

[S.Balaji]

[tscii:3f2339e19e]Viggop,

I have just few points to share on your previous posting.

Aswathama was not taught by his father Drona on how to withdraw this astra. So he could not withdraw. Besides, he directed the course to another route…( He did not forget as he was not taught at all on this aspect ). It has no relation to Aswathama killing the sons of Draupadhi , I think.

I doubt whether the astra killed the foetus. Actually before it could cause damage, Krishna’s divine power saved it.

The reason for Aswatham hiding in Vyasar’s hermitage is not because of his personality undergoing a change but for fear of the Pandavas chasing him…


[/tscii:3f2339e19e]

[S.Balaji]

[tscii:c6d7dcefff]Just one small digression, IMO , except in the case of Satyavan , there was no case where a dead man or woman was given life again….( the foetus of Parikshit inclusive )

Even Markandeyar was saved by Lord Shiva when Yama tried to pull him along with Shivalinga in the famous shrine.. Thirukkadayur….

There were several instances of Adi Shankara and Thirunavukarasar saving the lives of several but even those were actually restored from virtual death stage and not actual death..

Sorry for this digression… Back to Mahabaratha….


[/tscii:c6d7dcefff]

[Raghu]

[tscii:6fb0ced15c]
Seems Ashwatama was so beautiful and radiant before the war.he is considered as an amsa of Lord Shiva.But,when he kills the sons of draupadi in the night, all his tejas will be gone and he'll look horrible and old and will hide in ashrama of sage Vyasa.

really, i did not know that! :roll: :shock: :shock:


[The reason for Aswatham hiding in Vyasar’s hermitage is not because of his personality undergoing a change but for fear of the Pandavas chasing him…




correct[/tscii:6fb0ced15c]

[S.Balaji]

[tscii:306ebb012f]Another interesting aspect of Mahabaratha war was… the anticipated Mother of all battles between Karna and Arjuna…
Krishna knew very well in advance that Karna’s only target is Arjuna and he will spare others… Krishna also knew that Karna had 2 strong weapons :

1. Sarpamugastra
2. Vajrayudha of Indira ( which Karna got it as a quid pro quo when he sacrificed his kavacha and kuntala )

Krishna started worrying about this 2 elements when Karna joined the war after Bheeshma fell…
Krishna was worried on when Karna will be using the Vajrayudha on Arjuna and will be looking for ways and means to nullify it…
Ultimately he will use Katotkacha , the son of Bheema … who will create major havoc to Gauravas in night warfare…There will be a scenario when the Kauravas will be so frustrated with Katotkacha ( he was basically an asura ) that Duryodhana will push Karna heavily to use Vajrayudha and kill him… Else the Kauvara army will be reduced to bare minimum…
Karna will reluctantly use the Sakthi weapon of Indira and this will kill poor Katotkacha…
By adopting this ploy, Krishna will successfully save Arjuna….while Karna will be repenting for the lost opportunity….

The moral ultimately is.... to gain something in life.... one has to lose something........

Poor Pandavas, eventhough they got their kingdom, none of their children existed ( due to Aswathama killing the entire sons of Draupadhi and Abimanyu and Katotkacha also dieing in the war )
[/tscii:306ebb012f]

[viggop]

Balaji
Thirugnanasampandhar will bring a dead girl back to life in Mylapore .:-)
Manmathan will be brought to life after being burnt to death.

Mahabhartah war is a phyrric victory for the Pandavas.That is why Gandhari will curse Krishna.She'll accuse him saying that he could have easily stopped the war if he had wished.She'll curse that the entire Yadava race will also perish.Krishna will accept Gandhari's curse saying that it'll solve the problem of how to get rid of his race!!!

[S.Balaji]

[tscii:bbbac2d55f]
Balaji
Thirugnanasampandhar will bring a dead girl back to life in Mylapore .:-)
Manmathan will be brought to life after being burnt to death.

Mahabhartah war is a phyrric victory for the Pandavas.That is why Gandhari will curse Krishna.She'll accuse him saying that he could have easily stopped the war if he had wished.She'll curse that the entire Yadava race will also perish.Krishna will accept Gandhari's curse saying that it'll solve the problem of how to get rid of his race!!!

Correct.. Gandhari will curse Krishna as in her opinion, she felt that Krishna, if he had wanted, could have easily averted the war..
Instead, Krishna played a lead role in eliminating all the rivals.. by wicked means…probably to restore Dharma….but Gandhari was not reconciled and hence the curse came out of her….

After the war … the pandavas will seek the blessings of Dhirudhirashtra and Gandhari… every one will fear to go near Gandhari… after all she had lost her entire 100 children…a sorrowing mother…
However, she will be composed and will bless all the pandavas…

She will pose only one question to them….

ITS TRUE… MY SON WAS A SINNER AND HE TRIED TO DISROBE DRAUPADHI AND DID SO MANY BAD THINGS TO YOU ALL AND HE DESERVES TO BE KILLED.
But the way he was beaten is not convincing to me….. as this event had happened before Krishna and Yudhistra…
She was referring to the incident when Bhima breaks the thighs of Duryodhana ( which is totally against war rules )
However, Bhima will try to comfort her by saying….

MOTHER, WE ALL KNOW THAT YOUR SON DURYODHANA CAN NEVER BE BEATEN IN MACE FIGHTING. I WAS FORCED TO USE THIS PLOY AS I HAD NO OTHER OPTION…PLEASE PARDON ME FOR THIS…
Immediately Gandhari will forgive Bhima and will bless him as well..

Gandhari’s eye rays are so powerful… While blessing Yudhistira, she will turn her eyes to another direction… even by doing that also… a portion of eye will see the foot of Yudhistira and it is said that immediately his foot will turn dark…..
So powerful was her eyes…..





[/tscii:bbbac2d55f]

[S.Balaji]

[tscii:c59eaf8cae]Also, one of the reasons for Krishna not averting the war was….. It is believed that at that stage, the world was over populated and Bhoomadevi came pleading to the Lord saying that … I AM UNABLE TO BEAR THIS HEAVY LOAD OF OVER POPULATION. PLEASE HELP ME.

The Lord found the best way to reduce the overpopulation…. MASS DESTRUCTION …. THROUGH A WAR…. SO THAT ONE ENTIRE RACE WILL VANISH…
NEW WORLD… NEW GENERATION WILL EMERGE….

This is one of the reasons for Krishna not averting the war…..

Infact , Krishna will mention this fact to one Rishi after the war….who like Gandhari was about to curse Krishna and at that time , Krishna will reveal the reason.. He will also show his Vishwaroopa Dharshan to that Rishi….
[/tscii:c59eaf8cae]

[Badri]

That is not quite the correct version of the story. Bhoomadevi doesnt complain about the burden of population. If that were so, then consider the population now! It is much much more than what would have been during the Dwapara age. And also consider how many people died in the war! One tsunami that came last year destroyed more lives!

It is all absurd to say Krishna came to destroy the population. If that were the case, then every criminal who is accused of genocide is an avatar! Even Hitler, one can then argue, came to reduce Boobharam!! What Bhoomadevi complained to Krishna was about the load of Adharma. The earth is carrying mountains and oceans! Is the weight of puny humans going to be unbearable? It was the weight of adharma that she is said to have lamented against, and which was the reason why Krishna declares too that "Yada yada hi dharmasya glanir bhavati bharatha" etc.

To not recognize this fundamental fact and to merely look at the superficial meaning only shows the entire epic and the sacred avatar of Krishna in a bad light.

I know that was most certainly not your intention, still, I thought it is really necessary for us to understand the real meanings behind the epics. So, please do not take this personally, Balaji.

[S.Balaji]

OOps... Dear Badri...

Even my thoughts about the Avatar of Krishna are virtually the same as yours...

What you had conveyed is a philosophical interpretation of the ultimate intention of The Lord...

What I had conveyed was WHAT ACTUALLY SAGE VYASAR HAD NARRATED AND ALSO WHAT ACTUALLY KRISHNA HAD CONVEYED THIS TO THE RISHI AFTER THE WAR....

It is a fact that Bhoomadevi had pleaded to the Lord to save her from the heavy BOOBARAM.....

[viggop]

Yes.Gandhari's eyes and anger will be very powerful.After, Yudishtra's toe gets burnt by the corner of the eye, Arjuna will run and hide behind Krishna.If she had cursed Pandavas, then pandavas would also have perished.I dont think Bhima will go and plead like that to Gandhari.
After the war, Dridharashtra will be staying with Pandavas with Yudishtra ruling.Bhima will go and taunt Dritharashtra saying he is a shameless fellow eating the food of Pandavas etc.Yudhistra will console Dritharashtra saying that Bhima was a brute and he knew nothing other than fighting.
Finally, Dritharashtra, Gandhari and Kunti will leave to the forest, and fall into the fire and shed mortal coils.

One son of the Kauravas will go to the side of Pandavas and there will be 1 daughter among the 100 brothers too.Not sure whether that person who joined the Pandavas will die or live.Maybe someone in Kaurava side would have killed him.

[viggop]

I think Gandhari's power is because of her pathibhakthi and devotion to her husband? She tied a cloth to her eyes when she learnt that her husband was blind.

[S.Balaji]

I think Gandhari's power is because of her pathibhakthi and devotion to her husband? She tied a cloth to her eyes when she learnt that her husband was blind.

Correct. She will take this decision of tieing her eyes as a clear message to her husband ....
Such was her pathibakthi levels.....

In return for that she got all those divine powers which she will apply on Duryodhana's whole body up to waist and her powers will pass on to him but as he had covered the portion below his waist, the thighs will not get the powers...This will happen the previous day before the fight with Bheema...
which finally could not save him from his end as well...

[viggop]

Yes.Even that was due to a trick of Lord Krishna.He'll know that duryodhana is going to meet Gandhari and he'll come inbetween and make fun of duryodhana.Hence, duryodhana will comes some of his private parts and hence the thighs will get covered too from the protective rays of Gandhari.

[Raghu]

Correct. She will take this decision of tieing her eyes as a clear message to her husband ....
Such was her pathibakthi levels.....

very tricky question for today's women :lol:


Viggop AnNe

Yes that is how Bheema defeats Duryodhana by hitting him in his thighs, using his Adharma Yutham skills!

[S.Balaji]

[tscii:5e71a0c7c9]Raghu,

Another aspect before Duryodhana and Bheema fight … Duryodhana himself will offer the kingdom ( rather no other choice ) to Yudhistira… ( this will happen when he is inside the pond to cool himself ).. Duryodhana will continue saying that since he had lost all his brothers and dear friend Karna, he had no further intentions to continue and will tell Yudhistira that – Its all yours. You can take it but Yudhistira will be very furious now … He will say very rude words …. YOU WERE THE KARTA FOR KILLING ALL OUR DEAR ELDERS AND GURUS BESIDES OUR SONS…You also deserve to die now ( this he will utter out of frustration )… At this stage, Duryodhana will say, I am already exhausted and tired… what to do….
Now, Yudhistira will suggest, you can chose any one of our five brothers…. And fight with mace… Even if you win one of us, you can take back the kingdom….( Krishna will be very upset with this words of Yudhistira as Duryodhana was well known for his mace fighting )…
However, Duryodhana, out of pride and arrogance will chose Bheema by saying that only Bheema can match me on mace fighting…. And the fight will start… rest is history…


[/tscii:5e71a0c7c9]

[S.Balaji]

[tscii:88d16e9c8c]There will be a stage when after Duryodhana was down after the fight with Bheema, he will start abusing Krishna … recapturing all the events from the start of the war like :

1. Bheeshma was down by bringing in Shikandi
2. Drona was killed by telling a falsehood
3. Making Katotkacha as a sacrificial lamb before Karna and made him use the Sakthi of Indira which he had preserved for Arjuna
4. Karna was killed when he was trying to lift the chariot
5. Jayathradha was killed by creating temporary darkness
6. Purisiravas was aimed at when he was fighting Satyaki
7. Finally he was lied low by breaking the war rules ( indirectly commenting to Arjuna that Bheema will break the thighs of Duryodhana and will fulfill his vow in Rajyasabha )

His focus will be only on Krishna.He will further chide Krishna by saying that.. I LIVED LIKE A TRUE KING… I HAD ALSO FOUGHT LIKE A TRUE KSHATRIYA.. AND ALSO GOING TO DIE SOON. I WILL DEFINITELY BE IN HEAVEN WITH MY BROTHERS AND FRIEND KARNA..
WHILE THE WORLD WILL CURSE YOU FOR HAVING FOUGHT BY WICKED MEANS AND WAYS TO WIN THE WAR….
You will be remembered for winning the war by deceit…

When he completes the above words, FROM THE SKY… THE DEVAS WILL SHOWER WITH FLOWERS ….

And the entire Pandavas and even Krishna will feel ashamed….

At this moment, even Krishan will acknowledge what Duryodhana said was TOTALLY CORRECT. Without deceit , we could not have won the war….

Twice Duryodhana will be showered by flowers from the sky…

This chapter in Mahabaratha will be very interesting …. Even the devas could acknowledge Duryodhana for dieing like a true Kshatriya…..

Probably this is one occasion where Krishna will be put to embarrassment…
[/tscii:88d16e9c8c]

[viggop]

Balaji
It is said that even Duryodhana will reach heaven after his death.Seems he was a good ruler and a good king.his only weakness was jealousy over Pandavas from childhood days.

[viggop]

Balaji
I think the only way to stand up to God is to follow HIS path(in which case we become God).Even a slight mistake in dharma in any of our births,he'll make use of it to punish us.But of course, he has the power to forgive us only if we surrender to him completely.

[S.Balaji]

Balaji
It is said that even Duryodhana will reach heaven after his death.Seems he was a good ruler and a good king.his only weakness was jealousy over Pandavas from childhood days.

Viggop,

Great !! I just finished posting my previous one on this topic only and seeing your posting now !!
yes, as he fought like a true Kshatriya and died like one... He will rightly deserve the place in Heaven....

I also had raised this query earlier :

Was there any evidence on how Duryodhana led the kingdom when the Pandavas were in exile... I have not heard of the subjects getting unhappy or upset with his rule...
There is no concrete information I could get on this.....

Can somebody come out with an posting on this pls...

I

[Badri]

Yes.Gandhari's eyes and anger will be very powerful.After, Yudishtra's toe gets burnt by the corner of the eye, Arjuna will run and hide behind Krishna.If she had cursed Pandavas, then pandavas would also have perished.I dont think Bhima will go and plead like that to Gandhari.

In fact, not only Gandhari, even Dritharasthra was very powerful, even physically. After the war, when the Pandavas go to them to seek blessings and convey their sorrow, Dritharashtra would hug each one. When it comes to Bhima's turn, Krishna would stop Bhima and instead move a metal statue in front of Dritharasthra. The old king, in full sorrow of his sons' deaths and in anger towards Bhima who killed them, will embrace the statue with such force that it will actually shatter to smithereens. Thinking he has actually destroyed Bhima, the king will then repent and start to lament, when Krishna would reval the ploy and then let Bhima embrace the blind king.

Thus, Krishna was ever by the side of the Pandavas, saving them at every step.

[viggop]

Krishna was saving them in this materialistic world only.They all had to spend their time in hell for sometime before entering heaven.Even yudishtra had to reach through an opening from hell.This is because he told a partial lie to kill Drona.The Lord did not save them here.

[S.Balaji]

[tscii:3d78cf8c01]There was another occasion when Lord Krishna will save from Sage Durvasar… who was known for getting upset and immediately coming up with some curse….

Oneday, Durvasar … with his entire parivaar.. will come to Yudhistira ( when in exile ) and will say that he wish to have food with him .. and will say that he will come back after taking bath….
Draupadhi will be wondering how to handle this as just moments before that the pandavas would have emptied the food for the day…..
As usual, she will pray to Lord Krishna…. ( for Krishna Draupadhi is like a sister )… and the Lord will appear immediately…. And will also ask for food….
Draupadhi’s woes will be compounded now…. And she will tell Krishna that there is nothing left out…
Krisha will ask for the vessel on which Draupadhi prepared the food and will find that there is a small particle of rice and will eat it casually…..
It’s a symbolic message to the world…..Lord, by taking just a small piece…. Satisfies the Universe by his divine Grace …
Immediately.. Durvasar and his entire parivaar will feel as if they had a full lunch !!!
And will tell Yudhistira that they did not want lunch as they are already feeling as if they had more than enough lunch…

Thus the Supreme Lord will save the pandavas from another Embarassment…

The moral is…. SURRENDER BEFORE THE SUPREME LORD…. HE WILL BE WITH YOU …..
[/tscii:3d78cf8c01]

[Raghu]

[tscii:4b1b64647a]

The moral is…. SURRENDER BEFORE THE SUPREME LORD…. HE WILL BE WITH YOU …..


correct!!!, Give up the false EGo we have, such as me me and me, I I and I, Mine mine and mine, once this realised, and experienced, one will realise we are nothing but manifestation of 'Isa'(Iswar), we are all parts and particles of the Supreme Parmatma, Maha iswar, then by attaining this knoweldge, you have attained all the knowledge of the universe!!!, no matter how much u study abt this mundane world, no matter if you have PHD in science or mathematics, these are all Maya, ONLY applicable in this world, these are all like passing clouds, once these clouds pass away u will realise ur ParaBhraman( your origin), and finaly leading to Maha Iswar!

Balaji anNe

What are your views on my above post?[/tscii:4b1b64647a]

[S.Balaji]

Raghu...

Yes... precisely.... No second thoughts on that.........

I also remember in this context...

KATRADHU KAI MANN ALAVU... KALAADHADHU ULGALAVUUUUU..

Also from Ramalinga Swamigal... I think...

ULGAM YAAVAYUM THAAMULAVAAKALUM.... NILAIPERUTHALUM NEEKALUM NEENGALAA.

ALAVILAA VILAYAATUDAYAAR AVAR.. THAILAVAR.... ANNAVARKAY SARANAANGALAY......

[S.Balaji]

[tscii:f8b746830a]Amongst the 100 brothers… there was an odd man out… He was Vikarna… Known for following values..
He was the only guy who will argue with Duryodhana and others during the Draupadhi disrobing episode… but unfortunately will get overruled by others….

In the war also… still Vikarna will fight for Kauravas and will get killed by Bheema… Bheema, it is heard … will feel very sad for having killed Vikarna as he knew very well that Vikarna had been an exception amongst the Kauravas..

Thus ends another small but interesting character in this great epic..

[/tscii:f8b746830a]

[viggop]

I heard there was atleast 1 brother who will fight with Pandavas.Maybe,i'm wrong.

[viggop]

I think his name was Yuyutsu

[Hari Krishnan]

2 questions
============
(1)Can someone tell me the story behind Karna's wheel getting stuck because of a curse during the battle?

(2) I think Krishna also sacrifices the life of "Aravan" .another son of the Pandavas.But the above quiz gives name of Bheema's son being sacrificed.I have not heard about this story too.

I am going through the old pages. Interesting posts indeed. Here are your answers:

1) While returning from Parasurama, cursed that he would forget whatever he learnt by cheating the Guru, Karna keeps shooting his arrows in frustration. That's how he killed a cow belonging to a Brahmin, without realising that it was a cow. The Brahmin cursed him that the wheel of his chariot would get stuck at the most difficult time.

2) The story of Aravan is an addition by Villi. It is narrated in Villi Bharatam. I have not come across the name in Vyasa Bharatam.

[Hari Krishnan]

A very tough quiz on the Mahabharatha.I scored 10/25

http://www.funtrivia.com/playquiz.cfm?qid=150304
&origin=http://www.funtrivia.com/search2_act.cfm_QN_type=quizzes_AND_searchstring=
The+great+mahabharatha_AND_Go.x=13_AND_Go.y=14

It is a nice quiz indeed. But the answers/choices contain wrong suggessions. I have reported the errors to the website. :-)

[Hari Krishnan]

Atleast 1 Kaurava brother is supposed to have joined the Pandavas in the war.Do not know whether he was killed in the war or not.

No. Not a single Kaurava brother joined the Pandava side.

[Hari Krishnan]

Atleast 1 Kaurava brother is supposed to have joined the Pandavas in the war.Do not know whether he was killed in the war or not.

Viggop,

It would be great, if you can or some post about Vikarna.


Q 4)

What was the reason for Vidura to break his bow and not to take part in the war? :?

Ans for Q 3) Vikarna died on the 14th day of the war, and was killed by Bheema. He killed 7 of the Kaurava brothers that day. After killing Vikarna, Vyasa says, Bheema shed tears saying, 'Gory indeed is this war, Vikarna, in which you and Bheeshma had to be killed.'


Ans for Q 4) As far as I can recollect, Vidura abstains from joining either side and the incident of his breaking the bow is not to be seen in Vyasa Bharata. But, I will have to double-check this. My memory may be slipping.

The incident of Vidura breaking his bow and going away from the Sabha is found in Villi Bharata. This was becasue Duryodhana insulted him for playing the host to Krishna, against his orders.

[Hari Krishnan]

Coming to charcater of Draupadi,she appears very haughty, arrogant,proud and vengeful character.
She is born in the yagna of Draupada.The objective of the yagna was to take revenge(not noble) on Drona and both Drishtadyumna and Draupadi are born in it.

She laughs at Duryodhana when he slips and falls in Indraprastha.
She takes a vow not to plait her hair till she drinks the blood of dushashana.Hence she is also very vengeful person full of fury.

She loves Arjuna more than other husbands and does not treat them equally as Arjuna.This is supposed to be adharmic! Hence,she is the first to fall down dead on the way to Himalayas at the end.

She is much sinned against too.Arjuna loves Satyabhama(?) more than Draupadi.Yudishtra keeps her as an object in the game of dice and loses her.She is disrobed publicly.When Pandavas have to be incognito for 14 years,she is serving as a servant for some queen.

I am sorry to say this. The perception of Draupadi is not right. And it is not right to say that she did not treat everyone of the Pandavas equally.

Draupadi is an admirable character. Very brave; excellent in wisdom; very precise in her stand; very sound in her reasoning and logic.

Hope we will have more time to see the facts and come to conclusions rather than on impressions. :-)

[Hari Krishnan]

hey!
slight misunderstanding. what krishna drops is his modhiram or ring. Jewel is something he is born with and in the last day of the war, shri krishnaa takes that jewel away from him as a punishment for his unjust practices in the war (by killing children of the pandavaas when they are asleep).

Are you speaking about the incident that is associated with Vidura (which is again a hearsay) or Aswathama? If it is Aswathama, it is Sironmani that was removed from him.

[Hari Krishnan]

Dear Viggop,

Vidur had a bow which can destroy the universe, which was granted to him by the supreme personality of god head Maha Iswar(Lord Shiva),similar to Shiva thanusu in Ramayna,

What Vidura had was known as Narayana Dhanus. The very same bow that Sri Rama had. These divine weapons keep changing hands from time to time.

[Hari Krishnan]

I thought Kunti went along with the Pandavas in the forest.It is there she asks them to share Draupadi.
Vidura was a great devotee of Lord Krishna

He is supposed to have given the banana peel instead of banana to Krishna when praying but the Lord accepted it gladly because of his devotion.Similar ,one Nayanmar was throwing stones at the lingam deeply absorbed in Bhakthi thinking them to be flowers but shiva gladly accepts it.In Kalahasthi,the hunter nayanmar,kannappa nayanar, offers pork to the Lingam which is accepted by the lord much to the anger of the priest.

Is not Vidura called as Sanjaya? He narrates the entire war to Dhiritharashtra by seeing thru Gnana Kann.

No. Kunti stayed with Vidura. She did not accompany Pandavas. The sons did not want their mother to undergo suffering.

The banana peel story is interesting. But once again, not to be found in Vyasa or Villi. Can you please let me know the source?

Sanjaya was the charioteer whereas Vidura was the youngest of the three - Dhritharastra, Pandu and Vidura.

As mentioned elsewhere, Charioteer was not the equvilaent of a car driver. The Chariots of kings and emperors were driven by their ministers, or other smaller kings. This was essential because Charioteer played a very vital role in times of war. He played the part of counsellor too.

[Hari Krishnan]

I thought Kunti went along with the Pandavas in the forest.It is there she asks them to share Draupadi.
Vidura was a great devotee of Lord Krishna

The draupadi story happened much earlier. This was when they were accomodated in the "arakku mAligai" in deceit where they was an attempt to kill them.



Draupadi story in arakku mALigai? It is AFTER the arakku mALigai incident that Pandavas reach Ekachakra and stay there for more than a year. After the killing of Baka, the Pandavas go to Panachala hearing the news about Draupadi's proposed swayamvaram. Therefore, the marriage takes place about 2 years after arakku mALigai incident.

[Hari Krishnan]

I thought Ashwathama was born with the jewel on his head.It is embedded into his body.

Not sure about that :?



Yes. It was known as sironmani.

[Hari Krishnan]

My god! Though interesting, it is very difficult to navigate back and forth to post replies and go back to the original page to continue. May be I will continue some later. :-)

[S.Balaji]

While returning from Parasurama, cursed that he would forget whatever he learnt by cheating the Guru, Karna keeps shooting his arrows in frustration. That's how he killed a cow belonging to a Brahmin, without realising that it was a cow. The Brahmin cursed him that the wheel of his chariot would get stuck at the most difficult time.


Mr. HariKrishnan,

Why should that Brahman curse Karna specifically on the wheel of his chariot ... I wonder why should he take that particular aspect to curse on Karna....
Normally while cursing, its natural human tendency to come out with whatever that one gets into his mind...

Can you pl enlighten us on this ..

[S.Balaji]

[tscii:7f0081a967]Mr. HariKrishnan,

Why Karna could not get another Chariot ? ( I had raised this query earlier )… As a Commander of the Kaurava force, he should have had adequate back up and reserves… Also, if Saliya had ditched him in between, Karna should have had back up for that as well…Was it not a tactical blunder by Karna….
or probably at that time, the force was reduced bare minimum...
[/tscii:7f0081a967]

[S.Balaji]

[tscii:0aad3f45af]

Coming to charcater of Draupadi,she appears very haughty, arrogant,proud and vengeful character.
She laughs at Duryodhana when he slips and falls in Indraprastha.
She takes a vow not to plait her hair till she drinks the blood of dushashana.Hence she is also very vengeful person full of fury.


Draupadi is an admirable character. Very brave; excellent in wisdom; very precise in her stand; very sound in her reasoning and logic.
Hope we will have more time to see the facts and come to conclusions rather than on impressions. :-)

If Draupadhi was so admirable character, why did she comment on Duryodhana like…. THE SON OF A BLIND MAN IS ALSO BLIND … etc etc ( I am not getting the exact wording but she had conveyed similar to this it seems )
Was it a spontaneous reaction ….There was no other news after that Draupadhi apologizing to Duryodhana for having uttered such insulting words on his Father…

Besides, Draupadhi uttering of words on Karna when he comes to participate in the contest to marry her….

There is no doubt that disrobing Draupadhi is a sinful act... but the above incidents might have provoked and triggered both of them to think and react negatively against Draupadhi ??
[/tscii:0aad3f45af]

[Hari Krishnan]

[tscii:168f84dfb0]Mr. HariKrishnan,

Why Karna could not get another Chariot ? ( I had raised this query earlier )… As a Commander of the Kaurava force, he should have had adequate back up and reserves… Also, if Saliya had ditched him in between, Karna should have had back up for that as well.. Was it not a tactical blunder by Karna….
or probably at that time, the force was reduced bare minimum...
[/tscii:168f84dfb0]

Karna had picked up a quarrel with Salya, who was his charioteer at that time. You know the saying 'a bad workman quarrels with his tools.'

The chariot getting stuck was just one of the reasons behind the defeat of Karna and was not the only one. Of course, replenishments were on way for Karna. If one remmbers that it was the 17th day of the war, one can see easily that they (on either side) were not left ith much resources. But, Krishna advices Arjuna (this is there explicity in Bharata) 'Kill him before he ascends another chariot.'

I agree that Karna was a great philonthropist et al. But it is also true that Vyasa classes him as one among the 'dushta chathustra' - evil four. The worst rogues ever. Karna's character is a mixture of the good and the evil. The evil side was high.

I am amazed at the kind of arguments that have taken place here. Please do not get carried away by cinematic/TV portrayals.

On the friendship of Duryodhana and Karna. There is not a single line in Vyasa Bharata to the effect 'edukkavO kOkkavO.' I welcome anyone to disprove me.

This particular incident is depicted in Bharata Venba. As far as Vyasa Bharata is concerned, even this good streak is not noteworthy. If he was such a great friend of Duryodhana, please do tell me why he ran away from the battlefield, when the Gandharva Chitrasena tied Duryodhana to his chariot wheel and dragged him along? Why he - once again - ran away from the battle field when Brahanala (Arjuna) fought with all of them, single handedly.

At least six or seven instances can be quoted when Karna deserted Duryodhana, in times of need.

[Hari Krishnan]

Number one: A character is not assayed on the basis of an isolated incident. Every character has its plus and minus points. It is like what Valluvar said, 'guNam nAdi, kutramum nAdi..... mikka koLal.' What I said above is based on this 'mikka koLal.' This incident of Draupadi laughing at Duryodhana is a bit exaggerated one. Everybody laughed at the way he behaved that day and she was one among them.

This subject cannot be convincingly explained in a single post. I will give a complete description of the incident later.

Why would you expect Draupadi to apologise to Duryodhana later? Did Duryodhana apologise for any of his attrocious ways? From the first plot to kill Bheema, Arakku Maligai et al?

It was true that Duryodhana was disappointed at not being able to get Draupadi. And that was at the root of all the troubles, as far as Duryodhana-Draupadi incidents are concerned.

You mention about the words of Draupadi about Karna. One should not forget that it was Swayamvara. Which means, the bride is free to choose her groom. But from the persons who first qualify, stringing the bow and striking the target. She has every right to reject a person whom she did not like. I do not see anything wrong in what she uttered.

'I won't marry you Suta, even if you string the bow and strike the target,' was what she said. Now, tell me what's wrong about it? The reference to the unknown birth? Or the word Suta? Suta does not mean Sudra, please. That is another popular myth.

[Hari Krishnan]

There is no doubt that disrobing Draupadhi is a sinful act... but the above incidents might have provoked and triggered both of them to think and react negatively against Draupadhi ??
[/tscii]

You are welcome to tell me how these incidents were at the root of all the troubles that Draupadi and Pandavas faced later.

[S.Balaji]

[quote]Number one: A character is not assayed on the basis of an isolated incident. Every character has its plus and minus points. It is like what Valluvar said, 'guNam nAdi, kutramum nAdi..... mikka koLal.' What I said above is based on this 'mikka koLal.' This incident of Draupadi laughing at Duryodhana is a bit exaggerated one. Everybody laughed at the way he behaved that day and she was one among them.

Correct. A character should not measured by an isolated incident..
but was it true that she uttered such words...
In my opinion, anybody will get furious if someone utters wrong about their parents .... I expected some respectable behaviour and treatment to someone WHO WAS THEIR GUEST...




Why would you expect Draupadi to apologise to Duryodhana later? Did Duryodhana apologise for any of his attrocious ways? From the first plot to kill Bheema, Arakku Maligai et al?

I think we should not equate Draupadhi with others as Duriyodhana was known for his wickedness. and bad character...
but Draupadhi need not follow the same path...
I FEEL IF SHE HAD APOLOGISED TO DURYODHANA... THE VARIOUS EVENTS WHICH FOLLOWED WOULD HAVE BEEN AVERTED..I MEAN.. THE ACT OF DISROBING... AND ALSO THE WAR....
Pls comment...



It was true that Duryodhana was disappointed at not being able to get Draupadi. And that was at the root of all the troubles, as far as Duryodhana-Draupadi incidents are concerned.

Do you mean that Duryodhana also wanted to marry Draupadhi ?



You mention about the words of Draupadi about Karna. One should not forget that it was Swayamvara. Which means, the bride is free to choose her groom. But from the persons who first qualify, stringing the bow and striking the target. She has every right to reject a person whom she did not like. I do not see anything wrong in what she uttered.

'I won't marry you Suta, even if you string the bow and strike the target,' was what she said. Now, tell me what's wrong about it? The reference to the unknown birth? Or the word Suta? Suta does not mean Sudra, please. That is another popular myth.

Agreed... it was a swayamvara and Draupadhi had the right to choose her choice...
Was there any eligibility criterion that a non Suta only can participate.. Was it part of the criterion set by Durupadha...

If Draupadhi is known for her wisdom.... THE SOURCE AND THE ORIGIN OF ONE'S BIRTH SHOULD NOT BE A FACTOR AT ALL..TO DETERMINE ONE'S RIGHT OR CHARACTER OR TRAITS..

This is my humble opinion...

[S.Balaji]

[quote="Hari Krishnan
I am amazed at the kind of arguments that have taken place here. Please do not get carried away by cinematic/TV portrayals.

Sorry Mr. Harikrishnan...

Atleast my postings are not with reference to Cinematic / TV portrayals..

I am not sure about the source for others ...

Most of my references are from either Chakaravarthy Rajagopalarhari or from other sources but not from what you had mentioned as TV or Cinema...

[viggop]

Balaji
If duryodhana had also apologised , and renounced the kingdom etc., then too nothing would have happened.Duryodhana wanted kingdom and moreover he wanted to get rid of panadavas.the kingdom alone will not satisfy him.when yudishtra built indraprastha, why did Duryodhana want that too. he wanted everything for himself + pandavas to be gone for good.

Harikrishnan Sir
The story of Vidura accdepting the banana peel was shown in TV serial only. :oops:
I welcome you to present the right facts about Draupadi so that we get more knowledge.I've not read the Vyasa original mahabharatha.I've read Rajaji's english translation of Mahabharatha.

[Hari Krishnan]

[tscii]

but was it true that she uttered such words...
In my opinion, anybody will get furious if someone utters wrong about their parents ....

Mr. Balaji,

The incident of Draupadi laughing at Duryodhana is narrated by Rajaji. The much respected (and so-called) translation of Mrs. Kamala Subramanian speaks of it for a complete chapter. But neither of them have written that she uttered words like, ‘The son of a blind man is also blind.’ This was a dialogue spoken in the TV serial, hearing which, I was also shocked and quickly leafed through my copy of Mahabharata and was convinced that this was a matter of dramatic element that the playwright has added.

This happens with every re-creation of the epic. The dialogues, the incidents, the moods, the tone, everything varies from version to version. Every creative writer would do that. Otherwise, we would not have so many differing versions. But, you will agree with me when I say, such depictions should not go into the character as cast in the original work, if one is really serious about the pursuit of the epics.

Now, here is the particular portion in the epic, translated by Kisari Mohan Ganguli, who has exercised utmost care (he has stated so in the introduction) to keep the translation closest to the Sanskrit text. This has been done with authenticity in view, and not ease/pleasure of reading as the primary motive.

Please go through this section. Please tell me where it has been stated that Draupadi laughed, or used such words that are alleged? Even Duryodhana, while recapitulating, does not accuse her of either laughing, or using such words.

However, there must have been some missing Sloka that mentions that Draupadi laughed. So many others laughed and she was one among them. I believe this because Bharati has mentioned this twice in his Panchali Sabatam, which is almost a translation of Vyasa. Even there, we do not find that she used such words as are alleged. It is true that she laughed. But the allegation that she said, ‘This fellow’s father is blind and therefore this fellow is also blind,’ is baseless.

Quote: Mahabharata Sabha Parva, Section 66
<><><><><><><><>

Vaisampayana said,--"That bull among men, Duryodhana, continued to dwell in that, assembly house (of the Pandavas). And with Sakuni, the Kuru prince slowly examined the whole of that mansion, and the Kuru prince beheld in it many celestial designs, which he had never seen before in the city called after the elephant (Hastinapore). And one day king Duryodhana in going round that mansion came upon a crystal surface. And the king, from ignorance, mistaking it for a pool of water, drew up his clothes. And afterwards finding out his mistake the king wandered about the mansion in great sorrow. And sometime after, the king, mistaking a lake of crystal water adorned with lotuses of crystal petals for land, fell into it with all his clothes on. Beholding Duryodhana fallen into the lake, the mighty Bhima laughed aloud as also the menials of the palace. And the servants, at the command of the king, soon brought him dry and handsome clothes. Beholding the plight of Duryodhana, the mighty Bhima and Arjuna and both the twins--all laughed aloud. Being unused to putting up with insults, Duryodhana could not bear that laugh of theirs. Concealing his emotions he even did not cast his looks on them. And beholding the monarch once more draw up his clothes to cross a piece of dry land which he had mistaken for water, they all laughed again. And the king sometime after mistook a closed door made of crystal as open. And as he was about to pass through it his head struck against it, and he stood with his brain reeling. And mistaking as closed another door made of crystal that was really open, the king in attempting to open it with stretched hands, tumbled down. And coming upon another door that was really open, the king thinking it as closed, went away from it. And, O monarch, king Duryodhana beholding that vast wealth in the Rajasuya sacrifice and having become the victim of those numerous errors within the assembly house at last returned, with the leave of the Pandavas, to Hastinapore.

And the heart of king Duryodhana, afflicted at sight of the prosperity of the Pandavas, became inclined to sin, as he proceeded towards his city reflecting on all he had seen and suffered. And beholding the Pandavas happy and all the kings of the earth paying homage to them, as also everybody, young and old, engaged in doing good unto them, and reflecting also on the splendour and prosperity of the illustrious sons of Pandu, Duryodhana, the son of Dhritarashtra, became pale. In proceeding (to his city) with an efflicted heart, the prince thought of nothing else but that assembly house and that unrivalled prosperity of the wise Yudhishthira. And Duryodhana, the son of Dhritarashtra, was so taken up with his thoughts then that he spoke not a word to Suvala's son even though the latter addressed him repeatedly. And Sakuni, beholding him absent-minded, said,--'O Duryodhana, why art thou proceeding thus'?

"Duryodhana replied,--O uncle, beholding this whole earth owning the sway of Yudhishthira in consequence of the might of the illustrious Arjuna's weapons and beholding also that sacrifice of the son of Pritha like unto the sacrifice of Sakra himself of great glory among the celestials, I, being filled with jealousy and burning day and night, am being dried up like a shallow tank in the summer season. Behold, when Sisupala was slain by the chief of the Satwatas, there was no man to take the side of Sisupala. Consumed by the fire of the Pandava, they all forgave that offence; otherwise who is there that could forgive it? That highly improper act of grave consequence done by Vasudeva succeeded in consequence of the power of the illustrious son of Pandu. And so many monarchs also brought with them various kinds of wealth for king Yudhishthira, the son of Kunti, like tribute-paying Vaisyas! Beholding Yudhishthira's prosperity of such splendour, my heart burneth, efflicted with jealously, although it behoveth me not to be jealous.'

"Having reflected in this way, Duryodhana, as if burnt by fire, addressed the king of Gandhara again and said,--'I shall throw myself upon a flaming fire or swallow poison or drown myself in water. I cannot live. What man is there in the world possessed of vigour who can bear to see his foes in the enjoyment of prosperity and himself in destitution? Therefore I who bear to see that accession of prosperity and fortune (in my foes) am neither a woman nor one that is not a woman, neither also a man nor one that is not a man. Beholding their sovereignty over the world and vast affluence, as also that sacrifice, who is there like me that would not smart under all that? Alone I am incapable of acquiring such royal prosperity; nor do I behold allies that could help me in the matter. It is for this that I am thinking of self-destruction. Beholding that great and serene prosperity of the son of Kunti, I regard Fate as supreme and exertions fruitless. O son of Suvala, formerly I strove to compass his destruction. But baffling all my efforts he hath grown in prosperity even like the lotus from within a pool of water. It is for this that I regard Fate as supreme and exertions fruitless. Behold, the sons of Dhritarashtra are decaying and the sons of Pritha are growing day by day. Beholding that prosperity of the Pandavas, and that assembly house of theirs, and those menials laughing at me, my heart burneth as if it were on fire. Therefore, O uncle, know me now as deeply grieved and filled with jealousy, and speak of it to Dhritarashtra.
<><><><><><><><>

End of quote.

Apart from not saying anything about Draupadi’s laughter, this section gives out the real reason behind Duryodhana’s anger. Jealousy.



I expected some respectable behaviour and treatment to someone WHO WAS THEIR GUEST...

Now, this branches off to another issue. Duryodhana was NOT their guest. He was a part of the host. Please read Panchali Sabatham. i have written a verse for verse commentary, together with concordance from Vyasa. You may in particular see this page:

http://www.harimozhi.com/Article.asp?id=293

The Panchali Sabatham, with commentaries written so far can be accessed from here:

http://www.harimozhi.com/ListArticle.asp?lngArticleId=22





I think we should not equate Draupadhi with others as Duriyodhana was known for his wickedness. and bad character...
but Draupadhi need not follow the same path...
I FEEL IF SHE HAD APOLOGISED TO DURYODHANA... THE VARIOUS EVENTS WHICH FOLLOWED WOULD HAVE BEEN AVERTED..I MEAN.. THE ACT OF DISROBING... AND ALSO THE WAR....
Pls comment...

I have substantiated more than enough. I think the question of apology does not arise in the circumstances.





Do you mean that Duryodhana also wanted to marry Draupadhi ?

Yes. Very much. More than that, when she was brought to the Sabha, Duryodhana moved his vastra aside and showed her his left thigh. Bare, naked thigh. And asked her to come and be seated on his thigh. "ayvar kUttu manaivikku naaNamE?" writes Bharati, as the words of Duryodhana. 'What is the need for the joint-wife of five to be ashamed?' He intended to have her as his concubine and ordered Vidura to fetch her to the Saba, first. Dussasana, when he reached her private chamber and when she pleaded that she was in menstural cycle and therefore was in a single piece of garment alone, he laughed and said, 'You be clad in a saree or be nude. I don't care. You are my brother's slave. Come with me now.' Need any further evidence?

I notice another comment by Viggop here. That she wanted to drink the blood of Dussasana. It was Bheema's vow. Bharati, towards the end of his work, has taken a portion from the Bengali 'Uru pangam' (breaking of the thigh) and added it to the vow of Bheema. Nonetheless, Bheema did drink his blood. That is another matter for another discussion, if needed.

[S.Balaji]

[tscii:9fa53baaf9]Dear Mr. Hari Krishnan,

Thank you very much for the clarification..

Pl tell us on this…I have heard that the laughing incident happened when Duryodhana went a guest to the new palace of Pandavas . I mean when Duryodhana fell down…

Can you pl clarify on this..
[/tscii:9fa53baaf9]

[viggop]

Harikrishnan Sir
I thought Draupadi will want to wash her hair with blood of dushashana.Bhima will kill dusshashana on the 17th day(or 18th day?).He will catch Dusshasana by his throat, put him on the groud and cut off both his hands.then,he'll break open dusshashana's chest, pluck the heart and drink it.

Also, i think Yuyutsu will be a kaurava prince who will join the Pandava side.

[Hari Krishnan]

Agreed... it was a swayamvara and Draupadhi had the right to choose her choice...
Was there any eligibility criterion that a non Suta only can participate.. Was it part of the criterion set by Durupadha...

If Draupadhi is known for her wisdom.... THE SOURCE AND THE ORIGIN OF ONE'S BIRTH SHOULD NOT BE A FACTOR AT ALL..TO DETERMINE ONE'S RIGHT OR CHARACTER OR TRAITS..

This is my humble opinion...

What is a Swayam-varam? The bride going around with a garland in hand and choosing her groom, as in the case of Nala-Damayanthi. On the otherside, the father of the bride would set some condition. Like Sri Rama had to string the bow of Shiva. Like the one that Drupada laid down that the person should be able to string the bow and shoot the target.

It is not as easy as that. There may be one; there may be none; or there may be many, who could perform this. The caste criterion was not primary, since Arjuna when he achieved the fete, was believed to be a Brahmana. Therefore caste considerations were set aside.

Let us assume that more than a single person could achieve the fete. (In this case, the five brothers married her. That is a different issue altogether. It was a post-competition-development. The other four did not participate at all.) If there were three different princes, or ordinary folks who could string the bow and shoot the arrow, does or does not the bride have the right to choose her groom? That is the question.

Karna was about to string the bow. Everyone hoped that he could do it. Panchali saw this. Somehow or the other she did not like Karna. Therefore she told him, 'I would not marry a Suta, even if you complete the game.' Here is the relevant portion from Vyasa.

Quote:
<><><><><><>
And beholding the plight of those monarchs, Karna that foremost of all wielders of the bow went to where the bow was, and quickly raising it strung it and placed the arrows on the string. And beholding the son of Surya--Karna of the Suta tribe--like unto fire, or Soma, or Surya himself, resolved to shoot the mark, those foremost of bowmen--the sons of Pandu--regarded the mark as already shot and brought down upon the ground. But seeing Karna, Draupadi loudly said, 'I will not select a Suta for my lord.' Then Karna, laughing in vexation and casting glance at the Sun, threw aside the bow already drawn to a circle.
<><><><><><>

Once again, Suta is NOT the name of a caste. It is just a synonym for a Charioteer. There are three are four variants to this word. The meaning differs from a Bard to Charioteer. It does not refer to a caste. There is no basis for such a meaning.

She did not like Karna and therefore she said even before he could complete the task, 'I won't marry you, even if you complete.' The son of a charioteer is of course the way Karna is addressed. That was how he was known. Almost everyone was calling him Radheya, whereas he actually was Kaunteya. Radha was the wife of Adiratha, the Charioteer who found Karna in the river.

We should not confuse ourselves with today's ideas with yesterdays conventions. It was perfectly right for everyone to be addressed by the caste name - even if Suta staands for a caste name. Thus, it is very common to come across expressions like 'O Brahmana'., 'O Vysya,' etc.

But the tone of address would express it all. Drona was always addressed as 'O Brahmana' by Bheema. In the later years, especially during the war, this never once was a respectable address. It was meant to be a ridicule.

But one cannot hold Panchali for demaning a person by caste. It was not the name of a caste.

[Hari Krishnan]

[tscii:60dfa801ff]Dear Mr. Hari Krishnan,

Thank you very much for the clarification..

Pl tell us on this…I have heard that the laughing incident happened when Duryodhana went a guest to the new palace of Pandavas . I mean when Duryodhana fell down…

Can you pl clarify on this..
[/tscii:60dfa801ff]

Balaji, please see the five paragraph long quotation that I have given from Vyasa. That narrates the incident completely. In fact, that IS the incident which is elaborated, added and dished out in different formats.

[S.Balaji]

[quote="Hari Krishnan"]
Panchali saw this. Somehow or the other she did not like Karna. Therefore she told him, 'I would not marry a Suta, even if you complete the game.' Here is the relevant portion from Vyasa.



But seeing Karna, Draupadi loudly said, 'I will not select a Suta for my lord.' Then Karna, laughing in vexation and casting glance at the Sun, threw aside the bow already drawn to a circle.

[quote]Once again, Suta is NOT the name of a caste. It is just a synonym for a Charioteer. There are three are four variants to this word. The meaning differs from a Bard to Charioteer. It does not refer to a caste. There is no basis for such a meaning.
/quote]

Dear Mr. Hari Krishnan,

Very precise. I am also coming to this point only...

How can Draupadhi reject by saying the words...I WILL NOT SELECT A SUTA...

Forget the caste element... As you mentioned ... its very clear...

Which means... she touched the aspect of profession of Karna's father. who was a Charioteer...?

[Hari Krishnan]

For the attention of moderators:

As reported earlier, I was not able to browse the Hub for the past fifteen days or so. However, I am now using the 'misterprivacy' linke to browse The Hub, which I presume, is blocked by my ISP.

Now, I have another problem. Though I have opted for watching this thread, I am not getting an intimation. I keep visiting this page hourly, only to see a response here, without the mail intimation reaching. Is this because I am browsing through another site? Do I have to live with this, or is there an alternative?

Thanks.

[Hari Krishnan]

Dear Mr. Hari Krishnan,

Very precise. I am also coming to this point only...

How can Draupadhi reject by saying the words...I WILL NOT SELECT A SUTA...

Forget the caste element... As you mentioned ... its very clear...

Which means... she touched the aspect of profession of Karna's father. who was a Charioteer...?

This point has already been answered. We should not be confusing today's ideas with yesterday's conventions. I do not see anything insulting here. He was known as the son of a charioteer and that was how almost everyone called him. Why should one exclude Draupadi and hold her critically, for something which was in vogue, practice, which was the convention?

In case you still want to call Draupadi arrogant, haughty etc. please do so. I am not her advocate :))

Though I sound critical of Karna here, I do have my admiration and love for this character. Even Duryodhana for the matter. I am a dispassionate observer of human behaviour. Nothing more than that.

[S.Balaji]

For the attention of moderators:

As reported earlier, I was not able to browse the Hub for the past fifteen days or so. However, I am now using the 'misterprivacy' linke to browse The Hub, which I presume, is blocked by my ISP.

Now, I have another problem. Though I have opted for watching this thread, I am not getting an intimation. I keep visiting this page hourly, only to see a response here, without the mail intimation reaching. Is this because I am browsing through another site? Do I have to live with this, or is there an alternative?

Thanks.

Mr. HariKrishnan,

I get messages onto my Yahoo id... and browse this TFM.. ( my link is established from TFM to Yahoo id whenever any posting is made by other DFers on the said topic )

[Hari Krishnan]

Mr. HariKrishnan,

I get messages onto my Yahoo id... and browse this TFM.. ( my link is established from TFM to Yahoo id whenever any posting is made by other DFers on the said topic )

Thank you. I will be obliged if you can teach me how to do it.

[S.Balaji]

Mr. HariKrishnan,

I get messages onto my Yahoo id... and browse this TFM.. ( my link is established from TFM to Yahoo id whenever any posting is made by other DFers on the said topic )

Thank you. I will be obliged if you can teach me how to do it.

Pls go to the top of this page... There will be an icon for PROFILE.
Pl click and you will get into your personal profile..

There is a field for your Email id.. If you update your id there and save it... You should get the updates related to the threads which you are a participant

[S.Balaji]

[quote="Hari KrishnanThis point has already been answered. We should not be confusing today's ideas with yesterday's conventions. I do not see anything insulting here. He was known as the son of a charioteer and that was how almost everyone called him. Why should one exclude Draupadi and hold her critically, for something which was in vogue, practice, which was the convention?

In case you still want to call Draupadi arrogant, haughty etc. please do so. I am not her advocate :))

No. No.. Thats not my intentions at all... We are only trying to analyse what sequence of events that led to Duryodhana and Karna getting so negative against Draupadhi......



Though I sound critical of Karna here, I do have my admiration and love for this character. Even Duryodhana for the matter. I am a dispassionate observer of human behaviour. Nothing more than that

I had another query earlier... This is about the administration of Duryodhana when the Pandavas were in exile.. Was there any grief or complaint about his admn. capabilities.
Were the subjects happy with him....
Was he arrogant as a King also ....

Can you pls... clarify...

[Hari Krishnan]

No. No.. Thats not my intentions at all... We are only trying to analyse what sequence of events that led to Duryodhana and Karna getting so negative against Draupadhi......

If that is so,

a) The hostile feelings that Duryodhana had for Draupadi, stem from the jelousy that he had for Pandavas.

b) One has to go back to the day on which Kunti came to Hastinapur, after the death of Pandu, with Dharmaputra who was about 16, Bheema 15, Arjuna 14, and Nakula Sahadeva about 12. Duryodhana was a day younger to Bheema. He grew up in the palace of Hastinapur for the first 15 years with the feeling that he was the sole emperor of Hastinapur. That the sons of Pandu returned to Hastinapur was something which could not be digested by him. So was Dhritharashtra.

c) The logic is very complicated on the lien on crown of Hastinapur. Pandu was of course holding a care-taker government on behalf of Dhritharashtra. But nonetheless, it was he who expanded the kingdom and added to its frontiers.

d) The crown that was with Pandu, came back to Dhritharashtra since Pandu left for the jungle on self-exile.

e) Dhritharashtra wanted the crown to go to his son, undivided. But it could not be so, because Yudhisthira became the eldest.

f) Whatever it was, the opinion of the public was strongly in favour of Pandu's sons getting their fair share.

g) The half-share that was allotted to Pandu's sons was nothing more than an unusable, uninhabited forest. They built a city on it, wherein people came to reside. If it was a difficult task to establish a new city, it was more than difficult to get it populated. Which people would come to reside in a place if it is not well-protected, and well-governed?

h) Dharmaputra's fame reached beyond China, Java etc. He was well known everywhere. He performed the Raja Suya Yaga. Performing this Yaga needed the support of all the kings around. Either they have to pay their goodwill, or they have to fight against giving it. Nobody - including Sisubala - resisted when Dharmaputra sent his brother's around and everybody willingly partook in the Yaga. Dharmaputra had earned such name.

i) Duryodhana could not bear this. His impression of Dharmaputra was that he was a coward and that but for the support of Bheema and Arjuna, he could not survive.

j Duryodhana saw a match for Bheema in himself. He needed a match for Arjuna, which he found in Karna, whom he made a king when the latter was in an ugly situation, which was of his own making.

k) Karna kept adding fuel to fire. He was the one who was always intensifying the greed and unjustified desire of Duryodhana to annex the land of Pandavas.

l) Hostility against Draupadi stems from the fact that she was a black beauty. One should see how Dhritharashtra reacted when Vidura reported that Kauravas have taken the hand of Draupadi. And then Vidura tells Dhritharashtra, 'Do remember that the sons of Pandu are Kauravas too.' This desire for Draupadi was deep seated in Duryodhana and to an extent Dhritharashtra too (that is, in getting her for his son.) If evidence is needed, please read the portion on the game of dice, to know how meanly he behaved.

It is a very vast and complicated subject. I can provide the support material, evidence etc. for those who want to understand the subject. Having devoted more than 35 years of my life to the study of epics, I do believe I have a reasonable grasp, perceptive powers, and that I am honest enough to base my conclusions strictly on evidence.

On the other hand, if people think that I can be cornered with the evidence that I supply, I am out of this game. I have better things to do. :-) I have enough conviction about what I have concluded and don't have to be told that my understanding is wrong, with the material that I supply. :-)

We may proceed accordingly.


[/quote]

I had another query earlier... This is about the administration of Duryodhana when the Pandavas were in exile.. Was there any grief or complaint about his admn. capabilities.
Were the subjects happy with him....
Was he arrogant as a King also ....

Can you pls... clarify...[/quote]

Duryodhana's rule was perfect. He was a very able and good administrator. He was particular that the people should stand by his side when at the end of 13 years the Pandavas return. He was aware of the effects of adverse public opinion. Otherwise, why should 11 akshaunis stand behind him, while only 7 stood behind Pandavas?

[viggop]

HariKrishnan Sir
Was there a Kaurava known as Yuyutsu who joined Pandavas?

[Hari Krishnan]

HariKrishnan Sir
Was there a Kaurava known as Yuyutsu who joined Pandavas?

We know that Gandhari's pregnancy lasted for two years and more. During this period, a nurse was appointed to look after Dhrirasthra. According to one version this woman belonged to the Vysya community. Another version says she belonged to Sudra community. Yuyutsu was born to Dhritharashtra and this maid. Yuyutsu - much before the war commenced - joined the side of Pandavas. He was the one who was in charge of the kitchen/cooking during the Raja Suya that Dharmaputra conducted.

And, Yuyutsu was the sole survivor on the Kaurava side - apart from
Kripa, Krithavarma and Aswathama. Later, he became the guardian of Parikshith.

[viggop]

Kripacharya was also a greta warrior and he fought for the Kauravas.He was advisor to Dritharashtra.Also, brother in law to Dronacharya as Kripi was his sister.
But,no one managed to kill him.Why? Because Duryodhana was down before that and Kaurava side surrendered.Kripa along with Kritavarma stood outside as guardians when Aswathama butchered songs of Draupadi,Shikandi etc.
So, they also share the sin but I think they escapd without any punishment.Kritavarma was army chief of Yadava clan and was given to Duryodhana by Lord Krishna.

[S.Balaji]

[tscii:d3f7236acd]
I was exploring the various chances of the existence of the famous Gurukshetra where the war took place which is part of Haryana now ….

( BESIDES THIS, CAN SOMEONE BRING OUT THE VARIOUS RULERS AND THE KINGDOM THEY HAD RULED AND WHAT IS THE NAME OF THOSE KINGDOMS TODAY ? )


Here is an interesting article from Ms. Nandita Krishna who is Director, C P Ramaswami Aiyar Foundation , Chennai :
Last week, at the C P Art Centre in Chennai, T K V Rajan, archaeologist turned television producer, presented an exhibition titled "In Search of Krishna", a well-documented collection of material about the excavations conducted at the various sites connected with the life of Krishna and the events of the Mahabharata. In view of the ongoing excavations at Ayodhya, it is worthwhile to see what the Mahabharata excavations revealed.
Over 35 sites of the Mahabharata have been identified in the North, all of which have yielded material culture - painted grey ware (PGW) pottery painted over with designs in black pigment, and antiquities in uniform and identical levels. This pottery is made of a superior quality of paste formed of well levigated clay and fine, well-burnt fabric achieved by distributing heat in the kiln evenly. This civilisation is also characterised by the use of iron, unknown to the earlier Harappans.
Hastinapur, between Meerut and Mawana in Uttar Pradesh, is now a forgotten village, but excavations in 1952 revealed the existence of Vidur-ka-tilla (Vidura's palace), Draupadi-ki-rasoi (Draupadi's kitchen) and Draupadi Ghat (for bathing), besides copper utensils, iron seals, ornaments made of gold and silver, terracotta discs and several oblong-shaped ivory dice used in the game of chauper.
Iron objects numbering 135, and which included arrow and spearheads, shafts, tongs, hooks, axes and knives indicate the existence of a vigorous industry. There are indications of brick-lined roads and drainage systems, and an agro-livestock based economy. The PGW of Hastinapura has been assigned to 1100-800 BC. The events of the Mahabharata probably occurred around 1000-900 BC.
Later, according to the Matsya and Vayu Puranas, a heavy flood on the River Ganga destroyed Hastinapura, and Nichakshu, the fifth king after Parikshit (Arjuna's grandson) who ascended the throne after the Kurukshetra war, shifted his capital to Kausambi, 50 kilometres from Allahabad. There is definite archaeological evidence of a massive flood level. The devastation by the Ganga is still visible in the thick clay soil.
After their exile, the Pandavas asked for three villages: Paniprastha, Sonaprastha and Indiraprastha, generally identified with modern Panipat, Sonepat and Puranaqila in New Delhi. These sites have also yielded the same pottery and antiquities. Building structures with drainage systems and PGW were excavated at Purana Qila.
Kurukshetra, now in Haryana, was the site of the Kuru war. Excavations here have yielded iron arrow and spearheads, dated by Thermoluminence (TM) to 2800 BC. Today it is a town of bathing pools. At the Brahma Sarovar, a large lake 3,600 feet by 1,500 feet, Krishna, Balarama and Subhadra are said to have bathed after a solar eclipse. Bhishma lay on his bed of arrows at Bhishma Kund. Arjuna shot an arrow into the earth and a cool fountain of water flowed out directly into Bhishma's mouth, creating the Ban Ganga pond. Eight kilometres away is the village of Thanesar, the capital of Harsha Vardhana in the sixth century.
Yet, the excavations were stopped soon after these finds were revealed, and were never resumed. Why?
The submergence of Dwaraka is described vividly in the epic. Arjuna asked the residents to vacate the city immediately as it was going to be submerged by the sea. Dvaravati, according to the Sabhaparva of the Mahabharata, was heavily fortified. Dr S R Rao started excavating the Dwarkadish temple till he hit the remains of 15th, 12th and 9th century AD temples. He dug on, passing two earlier temples, until, at a depth of 9.5 metres, they came to the remains of two towns destroyed by the sea. From the earlier of the two they recovered the characteristic lustrous red pottery of the period and region. Encouraged by his findings, he decided to search for Dwaraka.
Underwater exploration yielded two gateways, fort walls, bastions and a jetty at a depth of 10 metres off Dwaraka, in the Arabian Sea. Apart from corresponding to the Mahabharata's description of the architectural features of the city and the mode of its submergence, it has directly fixed a date by TM for the pottery of Dwaraka at 3520 years BP (Before Present).
Other finds include pottery, bronze and iron implements, three-holed triangular stone anchors at Dwaraka, a late Harappan type of seal made of conch of a composite animal - a bull, unicorn and goat - and lustrous red ware pottery at Bet Dwaraka, linking the site to the Harappan culture, and thereby establishing its continuity.
Bet Dwaraka was an island frequented by Krishna who is said to have visited its Shankhodara Temple. It also contains the only ancient temple for Matsya, the epic saviour of the world at the time of the Great Flood. The materials discovered at Dwaraka corroborate history and myth, and fix a date for the inundation of the city - between 1500 and 1300 BC.
The most remarkable aspect of both epics is their geography. The Mahabharata mentions many small villages, tanks and hills, which are still identifiable.
What is the historicity of the Mahabharata? Our doubting historians will never accept any of these finds unless they are supported by inscriptions, which will never be forthcoming as the earliest Indian inscriptions belong to 300 BC. So, do we treat the epic as myth till they are satisfied?
Western scholars tried to establish a connection between Krishna and Christ, claiming that the former was derived from St Thomas' teachings about the latter, but literature and archaeology have proved otherwise. The Chandogya Upanishad mentions that Krishna Devakiputra was a student of Ghora Angirasa and the author of the Upanishad, which repeats the teachings of the Bhagavat Gita word by word.
In the 4th century BC, Chanakya refers to the story of Krishna's birth, while Megasthenes mentions that the Sourasenoi (Surasenas or Yadavas) worshipped Herakles (Krishna). Their two great cities were Methora (Mathura) and Kleisobora (Krishnapura?) on the navigable river Yobares (Yamuna). He also mentions that Herakles (Krishna) sent his daughter Pandaia to rule over the kingdom of Mathura (Madura) on the southern sea. Was she a descendant of the Pandavas, and did the latter re-emerge as the Pandyas, whose southern capital was named after Krishna's capital, Mathura?
Panini, Patanjali and the Buddhist and Jain works also mention Krishna and the events of the Kurukshetra war, while the Chinese traveller Yuan Chang records that a great war was fought at Kurukshetra and the bones of dead warriors lay buried under the soil.
In 180-165 BC, the Greek ruler Agathocles issued coins with images of Vasudeva holding a chakra. Several inscriptions are available in the first century BC: the Greek ambassador Bhagavata Heliodorus erected a Garuda column to Vasudeva at Besnagar; the Mora Well inscription near Mathura mentions the worship of the five Vrishni heroes, including Vasudeva; stone enclosures (Narayana vatika) were built for Vasudeva and his brother Shankarshana (Balarama) at Ghosundi and Hathivada.
The most controversial site is, of course, the temple at Mathura, the birthplace of Krishna. I am not aware if any excavation has been done here, but tradition and even eminent historians associate the site with the birth of Krishna, which is why Aurangazeb consciously chose to build a mosque over it.
Apart from knowing that vyuhas were army formations, I never really understood their formation or penetration. Rajan has computerised them to work out how the various Kaurava warriors were placed and how the Pandavas entered and destroyed these vyuhas, increasing the sophistication of what was always believed to be a primitive tribal war.
Krishna's divinity is a matter of faith, established by his identification with Lord Vishnu. But archaeology has conclusively established the veracity of the Mahabharata and the existence of the cult of Vasudeva-Krishna at a very early period. The epics form the soul of India, and Rajan has done well to document and bring alive ancient history.

[/tscii:d3f7236acd]

[S.Balaji]

[tscii:274a31a7b6]Let us discuss about the various individuals who participated in the war and their kingdom…
There is one school of thought that some kings from South India also took part…


The Pandava Army
The Pandava Brothers:
Prince Yudhisthira, Eldest son of Pandu
Prince Bhima, Second son of Pandu
Prince Arjuna, Third son of Pandu
Twin Princes Nakula and Sahadeva, Youngest sons of Pandu

The Kingdom of Panchala:
King Dhrupad, Father-in-Law of the Pandavas
Prince Shikhandi, Elder son of Dhrupad
Prince Dhrishtadhyumna, Younger son of Dhrupad

The Kingdom of Matsya:
King Virata, Friend of the Pandavas
Prince Uttara, Son of King Virata

The Kingdom of Dwaraka:
Prince Satyaki
Prince Krishna (Served as Charioteer to Arjuna - vowed not to lift weapons during the war)

Others
Demon Ghatotkacha, Son of Bhima through the demoness Hidimba
Prince Abhimanyu, Son of Arjuna through Princess Subhadra of Dwaraka

The Kaurava Army

The Kaurava Brothers:
Prince Duryodhana, Eldest son of King Dhritarashtra
Prince Dushasana, Second son of King Dhritarashtra
And 98 others…..

The Kingdom of Hastinapur:
Bhishma, Grand-uncle to Pandavas and Kauravas, forced to side with Kauravas due to loyalty to King Dhritrashtra
Drona, Teacher to Pandavas and Kauravas, forced to side with Kauravas due to loyalty to King Dhritrashtra
Ashwathama, Son of Drona
Shakuni, Maternal uncle to the Kauravas ( WHO WAS THE KING OF KANDHAR , NOW ITS IN AFGANISTHAN !! )
Kripa, Family Sage and Advisor to the Kuru Dynasty, forced to side with Kauravas due to loyalty to King Dhritrashtra

The Kingdom of Anga:
Karna, illegitimate and abandoned elder brother of Pandavas, believed by most at the time to be son of a charioteer, but actually the son of Kunti

The Kingdom of Madra
King Shalya, Maternal uncle to the Pandavas, tricked into giving a promise to fight for the Kauravas by Duryodhana and Shakuni

The Tribe of Trigartha
Chief Susharma

The Kingdom of Dwaraka
Kritaverma, General of the Dwaraka Army ( as per the wishes of Duryodhana, Krishan gave his entire army to fight for Gauravas while he agreed to the wishes of Arjuna to be his Charioteer and will not take up arms )

The Kingdom of Sindh ( WHICH IS PART OF PAKISTAN NOW ! )
King Jayathradha, Brother-in-law to the Kauravas
Others – Bagadhathan… known for his Elephant based warfare.
Poorisiravas…..another valiant warrior…
[/tscii:274a31a7b6]

[S.Balaji]

During the Kurukshetra war, several weapons were used. The weapons, and their most notable users, included:
Bow and arrows- Arjuna, Bhishma, Drona, Karna, Abhimanyu, Aswathama
Mace- Bhima, Duryodhana
Spear- Yudhishtira
Dagger/Sword- Nakula, Sahadeva

[S.Balaji]

[tscii:a0858cabd5]The two Supreme Commanders met and framed "rules" for the war. The rules included:
·Fighting must begin no earlier than sunrise and end exactly at sunset.
·Multiple warriors may not attack a single warrior.
·Two warriors may "duel," or engage in prolonged personal combat, only if they carry the same weapons and they are on the same mount (no mount, a horse, an elephant, or a chariot).
·No warrior may kill or injure a warrior who has surrendered.
·One who surrenders becomes a prisoner of war and a slave.
·No warrior may kill or injure an unarmed warrior.
·No warrior may kill or injure an unconscious warrior.
·No warrior may kill or injure a person or animal not taking part in the war.
·No warrior may kill or injure a warrior whose back is turned away.
·The rules specific to each weapon must be followed. For example, it is prohibited to strike below the waist in mace warfare.
·Warriors may not engage in any "unfair" warfare whatsoever

[/tscii:a0858cabd5]

[S.Balaji]

[tscii:1a830f7614]

Each army consisted of several divisions; the Kauravas had eleven while the Pandavas controlled seven. A new division ("akshauhini") includes 21,870 chariots and chariot-riders, 21,870 elephants and riders, 65,610 horses and riders, and 109,350 foot-soldiers.
At various times during battle, the Supreme Commander could order special formations ("vyuhas"). Each formation had a specific purpose; some were defensive while others were offensive. Furthermore, each formation had specific strengths and weaknesses. The formations were named after the animal or item it resembled as follows:
·Krauncha vyuha- Heron formation
·Makara vyuha- Fish formation
·Kurma vyuha- Turtle formation
·Trishula vyuha- Trident formation
·Chakra vyuha- Wheel or Discus formation
·Kamala vyuha- Lotus formation
[/tscii:1a830f7614]

[a.ratchasi]

Here's a little something on samsaptakas of the Trigartas.

Warriors Sworn to Victory or Death (http://members.cox.net/apamnapat/entities/Samsaptaka.html)

[viggop]

Thanks a.r. That was very interesting.Even though they knew, they would never be able to kill Arjuna, they still wanted to batlle him till the last.They were the earliest "suicide squads".

[viggop]

In that site
http://members.cox.net/apamnapat/entities/Dhrishtadhyumna.html
it is mentioned that Drishtadyumna is killed by ashwatama.Is this true? I thought he will survive the war.can somebody clarify this?

[S.Balaji]

Thanks a.r. That was very interesting.Even though they knew, they would never be able to kill Arjuna, they still wanted to batlle him till the last.They were the earliest "suicide squads".

Their main objective was to challenge Arjuna and drag him away from the main stream war area so that Drona can have an unrestricted access to Yudhistira and capture him alive...

THis was a ploy by Drona ( as Duryodhana wanted Yudhistira to be captured alive )

[S.Balaji]

In that site
http://members.cox.net/apamnapat/entities/Dhrishtadhyumna.html
it is mentioned that Drishtadyumna is killed by ashwatama.Is this true? I thought he will survive the war.can somebody clarify this?

Drushtadhyumnan will be killed in the night after the war gets over ( I mean when Duryodhana was down ).. Besides Drushtadyumanan, the sons of Draupadhi will also get killed by Aswathama...

[viggop]

What a wasted life for Drishtadyumna.He was born for taking revenge and his life ended after the objective.

[S.Balaji]

What a wasted life for Drishtadyumna.He was born for taking revenge and his life ended after the objective.

I too wonder .. I dont see any justification at all for the creation of Drishtadyumnan... As his father had ditched his childhood friend Drona and Drona took revenge and there ended the matter.
The reverse revenge which Durupadha wanted had no justification at all...

[viggop]

Balaji
If you do holy yagas with such objectives such as revenge and vengeance,it will bring destruction only.It'll never turn out to be positive nor will it bring good things to the world.Ravana also did his tapas asking for immortality.But, he did not get it and finally he died causing a lot of deaths.Look at Vibhishana.He did not ask for immoratlity but still got it.

[dr#]

just to extend what you so correctly pointed out.......draupadi who was also born of the yagna ended up childless (her sons were killed by ashvatthama, kripa, and kritavarman after duryodhana was mortally wounded), and indeed indirectly caused the decimation of the kuru race including her own clan (the panchalas).

what comes around goes around...........

dhristhadyumna- born to kill drona............killed
shikhandi-amba reborn to kill bheeshma.......killed


if you ask me the whole story hinges around bheeshmas vow or around shantanu preventing ganga from drowning her eighth child. either way the events triggered off seem to inevitably lead to the division and ultimate ruin of the dynasty.

[Badri]

dhristhadyumna- born to kill drona............killed
shikhandi-amba reborn to kill bheeshma.......killed .

Did everyone else become immortal, that one specifically points out only to Shikandi or Dristadyumna?

Bheesma wasn't born to destroy anyone - he too died!
Drona wasn't born to anyone - he too died!
Ultimately, everyone died, did they not?

These things happen for a purpose. One cannot hope to find morals for everything!

[dr#]

drona and bheeshma died in battle according to their dharma.....and to their expectations.

the ones i mentioned died ignobly, and panchali lost her children causing her great suffering. i just wanted to further illustrate that ill curses tend to backfire on the protagonists......well except drupada who ironically did die in battle.

[Badri]

drona and bheeshma died in battle according to their dharma.....and to their expectations.

the ones i mentioned died ignobly, and panchali lost her children causing her great suffering. i just wanted to further illustrate that ill curses tend to backfire on the protagonists......well except drupada who ironically did die in battle.

Panchali lost her children causing her great suffering! Did all the other mothers whose children died in the battle, enjoy that? They too suffered, didn't they? Then why only point out Panchali? The fact is these things happen for a reason! One cannot go into the pros and cons or the morals of every act!

[dr#]

i suppose so

[Raghu]

just to extend what you so correctly pointed out.......draupadi who was also born of the yagna ended up childless (her sons were killed by ashvatthama, kripa, and kritavarman after duryodhana was mortally wounded), .

No No it was Aswathama who killed all Pandavas children while Kriparcharya and Kritivarma were on guard, while aswathama were killing the children in the tent, while they were sleeping. Lord Krishna will this was going to happen, so he will take Pandavas to do some sort of Pooja or Yaga.

[Hari Krishnan]

Yes. Raghu is right. It was Aswatthama who killed the sons of Draupadi while they were fast asleep in their tents. The other two were forced to stand guard while Aswatthama did this. I quote from Srimad Bhagavata:

"When in course of the Mahabharata war the wrriors of the Kaurava and Pandava hosts had allen like heroes and when Duryodhana (son of Dhrtarastra) had hsi thigh broken by a stroke of the mace dealt by Bhima (who had the appetite of a wolf) Aswatthama (the son of Drona) severed the heads of Draupadi's sons while they were asleep and presented them to Duryodhana--an act which he imagined would please his master (Duryodhana) but which really proved most distasteful to him since everbody would strongly condemn such an odious act." (Srimad Bhagavata, Book One, Canto 7, Sloka 13-14)

Duryodhana was lying with his broken thighs in the battlefield. He was alive, undergoing all the pain and suffering of death for more than two days. In the meanwhile, Aswatthama went to him and asked him to be announced as Commander in Chief, in order to fight with the Pandavas who were alive. Duryodhana consented. But he did not expect this kind of foul play. He was clearly displeased and dismayed with Aswatthama.

[S.Balaji]

[tscii:f0df895bb7]Mr. Harikrishnan,

I understand while Duryodhana was down after he was hit on his thighs… he will chide Krishna and the pandavas by pointing out all the negative tactics used by them to eliminate their main rivals…. And while he completes his chiding… with the words…. I LIVED LIKE A KSHATRIYA… AND I AM GOING TO DIE LIKE A TRUE KSHATRIYA….
As soon as he uttered those words, I heard the Devas will shower him with flowers…. And it happened twice in that moment….. and this will make Krishna and the entire pandavas totally ashamed….
Besides, Krishna will admit that what Duryodhana said was correct, Pandavas could never have won the Kauravas through normal war methods and only by negative tactics, could have defeated…

Can you pls enlighten us on this ..
[/tscii:f0df895bb7]

[viggop]

When Duryodhana was lying for 2 days, somebody could have attempted to cure him and make him fight again? After all, breaking the thighs does not mean death? Does he die because of loss of blood ? Why did not Bhishma kill him immediately , like say crushing his head etc. after breaking his thighs. Sorry for such silly questions but i'm curious to know.

[S.Balaji]

When Duryodhana was lying for 2 days, somebody could have attempted to cure him and make him fight again? After all, breaking the thighs does not mean death? Does he die because of loss of blood ? Why did not Bhishma kill him immediately , like say crushing his head etc. after breaking his thighs. Sorry for such silly questions but i'm curious to know.

Viggop,

The wound which Duryodhana got from Bheema was not only on his thighs ... but also on other parts of the body and it was a deadly blow.. Remember besides, the thighs were BROKEN.... How he can get cured in such a case ??? He was physically dead.. clinically alive... Had some breath to talk to Aswathama and give final instructions...

[Hari Krishnan]

When Duryodhana was lying for 2 days, somebody could have attempted to cure him and make him fight again? After all, breaking the thighs does not mean death? Does he die because of loss of blood ? Why did not Bhishma kill him immediately , like say crushing his head etc. after breaking his thighs. Sorry for such silly questions but i'm curious to know.

As Balaji rightly pointed out, this kind death is slow. It is something similar to dying on the crucifix. Jesus was crucified by about 9 in the morning and gave up the ghost by about 3 pm. It takes an even longer time some times. I have to give an entire description of the process.

You know, with the hands raised up, spread and nailed, the lungs get constricted and breathing is restricted. Therefore, the person on the cross would try to stand erect so that the lungs may relax and function properly. He cannot stand like that with one foot nailed on the other, for a long time and his knees would buckle, making his hands hang from the cross, which would once again constrict or squeeze the lungs, as the rib cage would narrow down in such a posture. The process goes on and on. And therefore, the legs are broken at the knee joints when being crucified, so that the person cannot use his legs to stand erect. This quickens death and minimises the suffering.

Similarly, Duryodhana fell down with the blow on his thighs. He could no longer stand. Obviously, he would have been wounded with the blows of Bhima on other parts too. But breath was still running. He could see others, speak with them etc.

Even natural death is a very slow process, which most of us do not notice. Excepting in the cases of massive heart attacks and haemorrhages, natural death takes a minimum of five to six hours. I was with my father and my mother during their last hours, sensed they are sinking and watched the process. Sorry for the digression. But I just thought of sharing another information. :-)

[Hari Krishnan]

[tscii:4a4d3ae7e3]Mr. Harikrishnan,

I understand while Duryodhana was down after he was hit on his thighs… he will chide Krishna and the pandavas by pointing out all the negative tactics used by them to eliminate their main rivals…. And while he completes his chiding… with the words…. I LIVED LIKE A KSHATRIYA… AND I AM GOING TO DIE LIKE A TRUE KSHATRIYA….
As soon as he uttered those words, I heard the Devas will shower him with flowers…. And it happened twice in that moment….. and this will make Krishna and the entire pandavas totally ashamed….
Besides, Krishna will admit that what Duryodhana said was correct, Pandavas could never have won the Kauravas through normal war methods and only by negative tactics, could have defeated…

Can you pls enlighten us on this ..
[/tscii:4a4d3ae7e3]

Yes. The last hours of Duryodhana are quite moving. Bheema kicks him on his cheeks and his head. Dharma chides him for doing this. Duryodhana tells him at that time. 'Just do not mind it. In a few more hours dogs, wolves and foxes are going place their feet on my head. Let him do whatever he wants.'

And then, he says, 'What I ruled was the very swarga. What is there for you to rule over? Go and be the king of the graveyard! (pOi sudu kAttai aaLungada!)

It is a very long debate. Those last moments were moving, no doubt. What he says is right. It is doubtful if Bheema could have won if Duryodhana was not beaten on his thighs. It is not that Bheema was any less adept with the mace. Duryodhana anticipated this moment ever since Pandavas went on exile and was training himself with the mace, with a steel statue of Bheema. He was practising every day; whereas Bheema's practice was not that intense. You know why the rabbit is faster than the lion. In the Aesop fable, the lion wonders how could this rabbit run so fast, faster than its own self. The rabbit answers, 'You are running for the sake of getting a meal for saving yourself from hunger; I am running for the sake of saving my life.'

All the other points that you observe are there in the text. It is really moving. But Krishna gives every word of Duryodhana back. Do you think that he would remain silent at such an unjustifiable stance? If it was wrong for Bheema to beat him with the mace on the thighs, the history of adharma of Duryodhana starts from their boyhood, from poisoining Bheema as a lad, from attempting to burn all the five Pandavas and Kunti in the house of lac.... it is a very long stream of unrighteous deeds, which ended up with one blow on the thigh.

This needs a prolonged discussion. This question cannot be answered in a short two-three para long reply. Every bit of an argument, point of view, and every line of thought in the Epic has got its own validity, its own strength and at times its own weakness. Every character is just as human as we are. That is why both the epics remain unquestionaly great, over thousands of years.

[S.Balaji]

Dear Mr. Harikrishnan,

Thank you very much for the information on the final moments of Jesus..another great Messenger of God... Amazing is your thorough knowledge and reading and understanding of the subject...
Thank you again for sharing your personal experience also...
Nice explanation of the process ...

YOU HAVE BROUGHT VALUE AND KNOWLEDGE TO THE DF.... Please continue your great work....

[viggop]

Dear Mr.HariKrishnan Sir
Thanks for the clarification about duryodhana's death.The final moments of Jesus Christ which you have described are really painful to even read.:-(
Why does the human mind think of such cruelties to other human beings.:-(

[Hari Krishnan]

Dear Mr.HariKrishnan Sir
Thanks for the clarification about duryodhana's death.The final moments of Jesus Christ which you have described are really painful to even read.:-(
Why does the human mind think of such cruelties to other human beings.:-(

Viggop,

I have not gone in detail. What I have written on the last hours of Jesus is just about 20%.

Bible is my favourite too. The wealth of lterature belongs to humanity. As far as it is handled with respect. No single community can lay absolute right or claim over it.

[r_kk]

I have not gone in detail. What I have written on the last hours of Jesus is just about 20%.

Bible is my favourite too. The wealth of lterature belongs to humanity. As far as it is handled with respect. No single community can lay absolute right or claim over it.

Please go ahead with the balance 80%. It seems some hubbers here are capable of writing a historically inaccurate stories in to a perfect time scale recrds, even in hour basis. I accept these are good literature (only in literature point of view). I hope you might have read the all the parts of these kind of holy books. Please explain the balance. I will join little later.

[Hari Krishnan]

[quote=Hari Krishnan]

Please go ahead with the balance 80%. It seems some hubbers here are capable of writing a historically inaccurate stories in to a perfect time scale recrds, even in hour basis. I accept these are good literature (only in literature point of view). I hope you might have read the all the parts of these kind of holy books. Please explain the balance. I will join little later.

I can sense the sarcasm over there. I am not visiting the ForumHub to while my time away exchanging words on who is right and who is not; or to judge the historical accuracy of any particular incident; or to bandy words. I am just sharing whatever came in my way and whatever I learnt, appreciated, enjoyed.

Number one. This is a thread on Mahabaratha. It was just incidental that I referred to a parallel from Bible. I had my reservations while doing so. Now, here is the result. :-)

When I said I have written only 20% of what I know, I was trying to tell Viggop that this incident is even more moving. Period.

Number two. I am not for throwing challenges and for picking up the gauntlet. Let the gauntlet lie as it is there. No problem. :-) I don't consider this issue worth another word.

Number three, please excuse me. Or you may even like to forgive me, if you so please. I do not have time for quarrels. As I said already, I have better things to do.

[viggop]

Dear HariKrishnan Sir
Let us continue on Mahabharatha in this thread as you say.Though I understood your intentions when you explained the heart wrenching incident in Bible,some people might misinterpret it.

[Hari Krishnan]

Viggop:

I have been a Hubber from year 1999. I was confining myself to Tamil Literature section, though. Though I have never been interested in Indian History thread - in those days that is to say - I joined these two threads on the Epics just because of the keen interest evinced here and just because I thought I have something to contribute.

If something is perceived to be inaccurate, let that be stated openly, instead of baiting me. I know that the question is about what I had stated (9 am and 3 pm). That's how it is described in books by respected authors. When I say that Duryodhana was lying in Samantha Panchaka, with his thighs broken, for two days, and if I am asked to substantiate, I can quote chapter and verse from Mahabaratha or Srimad Bhagavata. In a similar manner, if a question is raised on the veracity of what I have written, I can understand that. I am either going to substantiate, or say 'I don't know; I know only this much.' There ends the matter. I don't see a purpose behind pulling me into an unwarranted challenge. :lol: I am not interested in quarrels and this fish is seasoned enough not to bite a bait. :lol:

If at all I can contribute something positive, I would unhesitatingly and very happily come forward. And that's that. Thank you Viggop.

[S.Balaji]

[tscii:7bb73ca236]Dear Mr. Hari Krishnan,

For all the sins that he had committed on Pandavas ( and various adharmas ) , ultimately Duryodhana reaches Swargam only ( which is normally assigned for Punya aathmaas ) ….. What is the justification for this ?? Is it because he died like a true Kshatriya in battlefield …. Or any other reason… I am not able to understand this…… Pls enlighten us…
And also the shower of flowers which the Devas did to him ….

Pl enlighten us on this…..
[/tscii:7bb73ca236]

[Raghu]

[tscii:47d69192d2]Dear Mr. Hari Krishnan,

For all the sins that he had committed on Pandavas ( and various adharmas ) , ultimately Duryodhana reaches Swargam only ( which is normally assigned for Punya aathmaas ) ….. What is the justification for this ?? Is it because he died like a true Kshatriya in battlefield …. Or any other reason… I am not able to understand this…… Pls enlighten us…
And also the shower of flowers which the Devas did to him ….

Pl enlighten us on this…..
[/tscii:47d69192d2]

Dear Balaji AnNe


Ok let me try, Harikrishnan sir, pls correct be if I am wrong.

Duryodhana had only 3 negative aspects with him,

1) Deceit
2) Jealousy
3) disrobing of Draupadai

It was Duryodhana's jealousy over Pandavas that led to war, but his brain was shakuni, Duryodhan was a puppet for Shakuni, and he had NEVER used any Yuth Adharma in the war, where else pandavas NEVER respected or followed Yuth Dharma, and he did fight till the last breath of air!

But Pandavs on other hand always used adharma to win the war, in cases of Karna, Drona and Bheesma !

besides your Moksha alias Mukti is not calculated on this birth ,here I am talking about the Atma within Duryodhana , this atma has gone through many transmigrations of bodies, along with it, it carried all its Karma, be it good deeds or bad deeds, so according to his karma his atma has attained mukti, perhaps Duryodhana's atma has done more good deeds than evil, similar to Pandavas, so we cannot say that, Duryodhana was evil and how come he attained Mukti, these all depend on Poorve Genma Karma!

ellam avan seyal

Om NamShivaya

[r_kk]

I can sense the sarcasm over there. I am not visiting the ForumHub to while my time away exchanging words on who is right and who is not; or to judge the historical accuracy of any particular incident; or to bandy words. I am just sharing whatever came in my way and whatever I learnt, appreciated, enjoyed..

Dear Mr. Hari Krishnan,
First of all I am not against you or any one writing here. I am against the concepts of converting or justifying myths through scientific or historical data. I accept MB is a great epic and uncomparably good literature. As long as it is discussed in that aspect, I never even bother to interfere. If some one says, a human can hold the so-called soul as per his wish even after his major life supporting organs were pierced by multiple number of arrows, I have no option except placing my views, even if you compare it with a better altered so-called historical evidences with accurate time scales.

Please go ahead....

[Hari Krishnan]

Mr r_kk,

Thanks for your views. What I have written on Duryodhana is supported by the actual text from Vyasa Bharata and Srimad Bhagavata, It is not I who say that Duryodhana was lying there for two days, but Vyasa and Suka. Therefore your allegation should most properly be levelled against them and not against me.

Speaking of the last moments, if at all interested, please go through the words of Satyavan (Savithri) that Vysa gives, narrating all the symptoms and the pain that he is going through. He speaks of 'his head being pierced with thousands of nails at the same time; profuse sweating; pain on the back and chest.' Anyone who reads this portion can see what Satyavan was describing was nothing other than a heart attack.

May be, heart attack is a recent development and did not exist during the time of MB.

Every kind of view is welcome, as far as I am concerned. It is a free for all forum. But every freedom comes with its limitation. Why at all should I write the balance 80% for somebody to come and examine later! Am I taking some university exam or what!

I am presenting certain facts, support them with textual evidence and give an appropriate interpretation, from my point of view. How I do it is my business. If the interepretation is not convincing, yes, please go ahead and say why you think it is not convincing. Or raise a question on its validity. Sarcasm and veiled threats won't help in any manner.

[Badri]

Mr Hari Krishnan! That was by far the most level-headed statement made on this Hub in a long time.

Personally, I have great respect for r_kk's sensible views, but the superb way in which you demonstrate your total lack of interest in getting into any argument is laudable.

And besides, r_kk, faith is a personal prerogative! If one man is willing to believe that a man can hold on to his life for as long as he wants, or that a woman could wage a war with death and bring back her husband to life, it is Faith. Not all logic in this world can pierce that faith, and as such, it is a wholly unnecessary and unwarranted intrusion for anyone to cast any aspersions on that faith.

I do agree that you are extremely sensible in your views. And it is also clear that you do not subscribe to many views expressed in this or similar threads. That being the case, it is best if those that believe are left to their belief! There is no gain for either party in trying to do anything about the other.

And I think Mr Hari Krishnan's superb example is worthy of being emulated.

With this note, I hope all digressions will once again be ended, and we can resume discussing the epic and its stories.

[r_kk]

Mr. Hari,
I thought 9 am - 3pm was your own view. If you would have told the source reference, I wouldn't have asked for the balance 80%. I thought raising comments on 20% may not be worthwhile.

Any way, let me stop here and allowing this discussions to flow.

[Hari Krishnan]

Mr. Hari,
I thought 9 am - 3pm was your own view. If you would have told the source reference, I wouldn't have asked for the balance 80%. I thought raising comments on 20% may not be worthwhile.

Any way, let me stop here and allowing this discussions to flow.

Here are excerpts from The Bible:

"And straightway in the morning the Chief preists held a consultation with the elders and scribes and the whole council, and bound Jesus and carried him away, and delivered him to Pilate." (Testament according St. Mark, Chapter 15, Verse 1)

"And it was the third hour and they crucified him." (Ibid, Verse 25)

"And when the sixth hour was come, there was darkness over the whole land until the ninth hour." (Ibid, Verse 33)

""And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying E-lo'i, E-loi, la'ma sa-bach-tha-n-' which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why has thou forsaken me?" (Ibid, Verse 34)

Since he was brought to Pilate "in the morning" (first verse) the calculations of the 'first hour' and other references to hours, commence from 6 am in the morning, which is believed to be the first hour, when the sun rises.

Therefore, third hour is 9 am, the sixth hour is 12.00 noon and the ninth hour is 3 pm. This is the prevalent view.

If you 'thought' this was my view, I would better have been asked why I hold that view. Or the basis for what I say. Instead, you asked me to write the balance 80%. In what way would that substantiate what I had expressed in the first place? And then the question took a U turn and criticised an incident which was not discussed at all. The event that is mentioned in your second post refers to Bheeshma, which was not the point of discussion, at least for now.

And now you say that commenting on the first 20% is not worthwhile. Beautiful.

Now I have given the basis for what I wrote. I would not have done this, because I respect the purpose behind the thread. However, if people prefer to indulge in nit-picking, I have to throw the cards on the table, open for everyone to see.

I hope this matter stands clarified here, if at all it was clarification which was sought for, as it appears to be, on the surface. Shall we stop the discussion of Bible and Jesus in this thread, with this?

[viggop]

Yes.Let us continue on Mahabharatha in this thread.Why did Duryodhana find a place in heaven? I read that Yudishtra was so surprised to see him there.Yudishtra is supposed to have entred heaven with his body itself.

[S.Balaji]

Dear Mr. Harikrishnan,

We have gained a lot from your valuable postings including the posting on Jesus....
Requesting you to enlighten us on Mahabaratha .....

Pl post on the justification for Duryodhana attaining the Swarga....

[Hari Krishnan]

Thank you Balaji and Viggop. In fact, I started writing my view on the point raised by you last night, and was diverted mid-way. The point is not easy of answering in a short form. Give me time for a day or two. Let me think of how to present the subject. Or we can break it into convenient pieces and tackle it.

[Raghu]

[tscii:7afe199e36]Dear Mr. Hari Krishnan,

For all the sins that he had committed on Pandavas ( and various adharmas ) , ultimately Duryodhana reaches Swargam only ( which is normally assigned for Punya aathmaas ) ….. What is the justification for this ?? Is it because he died like a true Kshatriya in battlefield …. Or any other reason… I am not able to understand this…… Pls enlighten us…
And also the shower of flowers which the Devas did to him ….

Pl enlighten us on this…..
[/tscii:7afe199e36]

Dear Balaji AnNe


Ok let me try, Harikrishnan sir, pls correct be if I am wrong.

Duryodhana had only 3 negative aspects with him,

1) Deceit
2) Jealousy
3) disrobing of Draupadai

It was Duryodhana's jealousy over Pandavas that led to war, but his brain was shakuni, Duryodhan was a puppet for Shakuni, and he had NEVER used any Yuth Adharma in the war, where else pandavas NEVER respected or followed Yuth Dharma, and he did fight till the last breath of air!

But Pandavs on other hand always used adharma to win the war, in cases of Karna, Drona and Bheesma !

besides your Moksha alias Mukti is not calculated on this birth ,here I am talking about the Atma within Duryodhana , this atma has gone through many transmigrations of bodies, along with it, it carried all its Karma, be it good deeds or bad deeds, so according to his karma his atma has attained mukti, perhaps Duryodhana's atma has done more good deeds than evil, similar to Pandavas, so we cannot say that, Duryodhana was evil and how come he attained Mukti, these all depend on Poorve Genma Karma!

ellam avan seyal

Om NamShivaya can some one validate my point here???

[viggop]

Dear HariKrishnan Sir

Please take your own time.But do explain how Duryodhana got into heaven.I think he must have sepnt sometime in hell too like all the Pandavas(except yudishtra).The concept of hell and heaven are somewhat confusing to me in Hindu context.We have the cycle of birth and death and that cycle ends only when we get Moksha.Moksha is merging with Brahmam or Shivam or Vishnu etc.So, does this this heaven mean being merged with Brahmam?Oncemerged, there is no seprate identity of a individual soul(jivatma),right? so, how come yudishtra has body too in heaven? Or maybe, this heaven is just another planne of existence and people in heaven too have to strive for moksha? I think i'm getting confused by reading various philosophies.:-(

[Badri]

Dear HariKrishnan Sir

Please take your own time.But do explain how Duryodhana got into heaven.I think he must have sepnt sometime in hell too like all the Pandavas(except yudishtra).The concept of hell and heaven are somewhat confusing to me in Hindu context.We have the cycle of birth and death and that cycle ends only when we get Moksha.Moksha is merging with Brahmam or Shivam or Vishnu etc.So, does this this heaven mean being merged with Brahmam?Oncemerged, there is no seprate identity of a individual soul(jivatma),right? so, how come yudishtra has body too in heaven? Or maybe, this heaven is just another planne of existence and people in heaven too have to strive for moksha? I think i'm getting confused by reading various philosophies.:-(

Viggop: Can I try my hand at answering this, or was this question addressed only to Hari Krishnan?
:wink:

[Hari Krishnan]

Badri, please go ahead.

As far as I am concerned, I belong to that category of persons who have reasons to believe that what is described in the epics are true, at least in part and the geographical/historical references that they contain can be traced back. The details given are so vivid.

But as for the point that is raised now, this is one of those points where the story moves away from history to a matter of theory.

Please go ahead and give your views. The question might have been addressed to me. But everyone has his/her view, which nonetheless deserves attention.

Regards,
Hari Krishnan

[Badri]

Thanks Hari Krishnan.

Well, we find an answer to Viggop's query in the B.Gita where Krishna says that those who perform the various sacrifices that are detailed in the Vedas attain to Heaven and enjoy the pleasures therein. Ch IX Sh 20

Traividyaa maam somapaah pootapaapaa
Yajnairishtwaa swargatim praarthayante;
Te punyamaasaadya surendraloka-
Mashnanti divyaan divi devabhogaan.

But thereafter, after having enjoyed those vast heavens, when the accumulated merit is finished, they have to return to the world, as evidenced by the next shloka.

Te tam bhuktwaa swargalokam vishaalam
Ksheene punye martyalokam vishanti;

Then again, he says that those that desire the objects and undertake the various rites and rituals enjoined in the Vedas are forever coming and going. (heaven and earth). But those that do not think of anything else except me attain Moksha.

As Viggop rightly said, there is no coming from Moksham. Again as Krishna says, "Yad gatva na nivartante tad dhama paramam mama" Attaning which there is no return, that is My Abode or Moksha.

From this, it becomes clear that heaven and hell may well be different planes of existence to which the Jiva or the soul attains to and enjoys/suffers the fruit of those specific actions which take the jiva there. When that gets over, the Jiva is born again.

However, all the other actions that the Jiva does during its earthly sojourn give the results too - the good and the bad that we enjoy even when we are born and live on Earth.

So, specific karmas enjoined in the Vedas or prohibited by them take man to heaven or hell. All other karmas merely sustain him on earth giving him various joys and sorrow. But to get beyond heaven, hell and earth, is Moksha.


And in fact, seen from this angle, one can even understand how or why even Duryodhana can go to Heaven. How good or bad a person is has nothing to do with going to Swarga. This is clear if we look at the behaviour of Indra as mentioned in the epics, there are times when he really stoops pretty low. Also consider Nahusha who became Indra for a while...his behaviour too was not noteworthy, despite attaining to such a high status. Then what to say of people who merely by force of their acts can attain to heaven without a corresponding mental or internal evolutionj.

One must not think that ordinary good acts will take us to heaven. If that were the case, then we will neither have joy nor sorrow in this life on earth. If all joys were to be enjoyed only in heaven, and all sorrows only in hell, then why do we say "poorva janma karma" when good or bad comes into our lot in our day to day life?

This alone clearly indicates that doing certain karmas, certain yagnas, yagas, or say dying in the battlefield doing the duty (veera swarga) etc can take a Jiva to heaven for a specific period of time. When that is over, he comes back. So going to heaven is not the final achievement. Moksha alone is the final emancipation.

Of course, seen from a Jnana point of view, all this is meaningless. It is only when seen from a Karma point of view that all these make sense.

[viggop]

Thanks Badri for your detailed explanation.
:-)

[Raghu]

Yes Badri is right, Lord Krishna says in Gita, that if one does good deeds, he will get a place in heaven for an 'X' period of time, same goes for hell, if one conduct evil deeds, he will go into hell, again for an 'X' period of time, then once these X time periods have expired these atmas will take an another birth in the form another perishable body.

In Mahabhartha as far as I know only Karna and Bheeshma, and sudhama, Lord Krishna's dearest friend(from child hood) will attain Mukti, the rest including the Pandavas will only go to heaven.

The process of attaining mukti, is by self realisation, knowing ur Bhraman(origin) and free ur self from Maya, devote your bhakthi to Iswar or Isa as it is known in Gita, and just think of only Iswar, and this is the ONLY way to Mukti.

any other suggestions

[Badri]

Raghu, when in a nutshell, you have captured the essence of Jnana and Bhakti margas, what else is there to add or suggest!!

Of course you are right! All the Vedas, Upanishads, and Sutras declare that only by Jnana or by Ananya Bhakti can the Lord be known. And knowing Him, of course, is becoming Him, or merging with Him.

[Raghu]

Raghu, when in a nutshell, you have captured the essence of Jnana and Bhakti margas, what else is there to add or suggest!!

Of course you are right! All the Vedas, Upanishads, and Sutras declare that only by Jnana or by Ananya Bhakti can the Lord be known. And knowing Him, of course, is becoming Him, or merging with Him.

thanks Badri anne, I just wanted to clarifications from other intellectuals like you, as the saying says.

'Known is a drop unknown is an ocean, who knows him self knows all'.

thank you.

[sivajayan]

'Known is a drop unknown is an ocean, who knows him self knows all'.

Isn't it that drops form the ocean? Isn't it that the more you know the most you don't know?

[S.Balaji]

While I was going through some of the postings about the Drona and Durupadha friendship turned enemity and finally bitterness ending up with Killing Drona..... ( really really indigestable ... No one will shudder to think of killing his friend.... Such was the enemity )

The same Maharabaratham also highlights the incomparable friendship and the bondage between SriKrishna and Sudhama.
Its we ordinaly mortals who look for levels and divisions... but for the Almighty... all are one.....

The episode of Sudhama getting prepared for meeting his childhood friennd Krishna who is a King now and all he had was few pieces of Aval.... which he took it hesitatingly and met Krishna. How Krishna welcomes him and attends to him with great care .....

Krishna will also ask him ... Friend what did you bring for me ?? and will not wait for him... He will search and find a small piece of aval... packed in old cloth... and will GLEEFULLY have it....

While writing this... enakku mei silirkiradhu........

Krishna knew everything..... He wanted to honour and please his childhood friend.... and took the aval.... with the enthusiasm of a kid...... Just to show that he is the same old Krishna to Sudhama.......

We should learn from Ramayana and Mahabaratha.....

[sivajayan]

While writing this... enakku mei silirkiradhu........
Mate you may be suffering from a lung infection, better you consult a doctor.

[S.Balaji]

[tscii:215d499d1d]Earlier I raised a query on Amba getting boon from Lord Muruga. It was Lord Karthikeya who gave that garland to Amba and told her that the one who wears this garland will become a Kshatru of Bheeshma….
As Lord Muruga was present at that time , does it mean that Lord Muruga’s Avatar and the entire Surabadhman episode all happened before Mahabaratha… Does it also mean that Tamilnadu was existent during that time… as Lord Murugan is Tamil Kadavul..
Sorry for this digression…
[/tscii:215d499d1d]

[pamrang]

Hi,
I was going thru the posts - highly enlightening!

I have a question about Dronacharya - At the time of the war, Bheeshma (because of his oath), kripacharya (because he was the Kula Guru and thus probably bound to Hastinapur) and many others side with the Kauravas for their own reasons, though reluctantly. But, why did Dronacharya have to side with them? He was not the Kula Guru and so, I do not see how he could have been bound by duty to the king/country etc. When Vidura, who was the prime minister, could refrain from taking sides, what put Drona in a position to side with the kauravas?

If this has been already dealt with in the posts earlier, please refer me to the right place.

Sorry for the digression.

[Raghu]

While I was going through some of the postings about the Drona and Durupadha friendship turned enemity and finally bitterness ending up with Killing Drona..... ( really really indigestable ... No one will shudder to think of killing his friend.... Such was the enemity )

The same Maharabaratham also highlights the incomparable friendship and the bondage between SriKrishna and Sudhama.
Its we ordinaly mortals who look for levels and divisions... but for the Almighty... all are one.....

The episode of Sudhama getting prepared for meeting his childhood friennd Krishna who is a King now and all he had was few pieces of Aval.... which he took it hesitatingly and met Krishna. How Krishna welcomes him and attends to him with great care .....

Krishna will also ask him ... Friend what did you bring for me ?? and will not wait for him... He will search and find a small piece of aval... packed in old cloth... and will GLEEFULLY have it....

While writing this... enakku mei silirkiradhu........

Krishna knew everything..... He wanted to honour and please his childhood friend.... and took the aval.... with the enthusiasm of a kid...... Just to show that he is the same old Krishna to Sudhama.......

We should learn from Ramayana and Mahabaratha.....

Yes Balaji anNe, lord Krishna's friendship with sudhama, and Karna's friendship with Duryodhana are an example of how friendship should be,

the scene when Lord krishna will run out of his palace, once he hears that his friend is in dwaraka is still fresh in my mind, this is HOW FRIENDSHIP SHOULD BE, , NON SELFISHNESS

[viggop]

Balaji
Skandapuranam is told by Valmiki to Lord Rama.He mentions about Saravana Poigai.This is present in Valmiki's ramayanam.So, Skandha was there at that time of Ramayana.

[Raghu]

Balaji
Skandapuranam is told by Valmiki to Lord Rama.He mentions about Saravana Poigai.This is present in Valmiki's ramayanam.So, Skandha was there at that time of Ramayana.

Lord muruga was mentioned as kartikeya in Mahabharath and Shrimad bhagavatham, but there is no mention of Lord Ganesh in either of these epic, could some one correct me, if i am wrong?

thanks

[Badri]

It is well recorded that Ganesha was the one who actualy wrote the entire Mahabharatha, while Vyasa dictated it!

[S.Balaji]

It is well recorded that Ganesha was the one who actualy wrote the entire Mahabharatha, while Vyasa dictated it!

Yes, Lord Ganesha was requested by Sage Vyasa to write .. However, Ganesha laid one condition that he will have to narrate without a pause... for this Vyasa requested Ganesha again that Ganesha before writing, should understand the essence and meaning of every word and then write.... This gave some breathing time to Vyasa to narrate...
It is also heard that Lord Ganesha, to write , broke his Thantham to write

[Raghu]

It is well recorded that Ganesha was the one who actualy wrote the entire Mahabharatha, while Vyasa dictated it!

Yes, Lord Ganesha was requested by Sage Vyasa to write .. However, Ganesha laid one condition that he will have to narrate without a pause... for this Vyasa requested Ganesha again that Ganesha before writing, should understand the essence and meaning of every word and then write.... This gave some breathing time to Vyasa to narrate...
It is also heard that Lord Ganesha, to write , broke his Thantham to write


yes Badri anNe and balaji anNe, i agree it was Lord Vinayagar who wrote the epic, but in the actual Mahabhartham epic as far as i know, Lord Ganesh is not mentioned at all, even all the demi gods, like indran, chandran, bhoomi devi, etc etc are all mentioned but No Lord Ganesh :cry: :cry:

[Sudhaama]

It is well recorded that Ganesha was the one who actualy wrote the entire Mahabharatha, while Vyasa dictated it!

Yes, Lord Ganesha was requested by Sage Vyasa to write .. However, Ganesha laid one condition that he will have to narrate without a pause... for this Vyasa requested Ganesha again that Ganesha before writing, should understand the essence and meaning of every word and then write.... This gave some breathing time to Vyasa to narrate...
It is also heard that Lord Ganesha, to write , broke his Thantham to write

yes Badri anNe and balaji anNe, i agree it was Lord Vinayagar who wrote the epic, but in the actual Mahabhartham epic as far as i know, Lord Ganesh is not mentioned at all, even all the demi gods, like indran, chandran, bhoomi devi, etc etc are all mentioned but No Lord Ganesh :cry: :cry:

Out of all the Vedic Gods... the Scriptures say... that Ganesha and Hanuman are the HUMBLEST Gods on Earth. ...

... and especially Lord Ganesa demands Humble-attitude as the RUDIMENTARY -CHARACTER..... more than Bhakthi ... (from His Devotees.)

... for Happiness and Success with least Obstructions and Delays in Life

Such an exceptional Quality to the highest degree... was much appreciatedby Lord Vishnu... and so...

... Goddess Lakshmi, named Ganesa as... VISHNUPRIYA... which is one of his 108 Names...

... and is chanted during Archanas TO Ganesa, as ... VISHNUPRIYAAYAI NAMAHA ..

Such a God... of utmost Humble character...despite his Great Godly- might..

... Will write his own Greatness?.. or at least mention His own Name in Writing Mahabharatha?..

While Ganesa was writing Mahabharatha with the Coventional- Writing-Tool ... "Ezhuththaanhi"....

...Vyasa at one stage, took it as a Challenge... and started dictating too fast to follow in writing. but Ganesa did not lag behind. and so counter- challenged by matchingly fast writing.

But for such a Superfast Speed and force of these two sorts of mutual-challenges, the Ezhuththaanhi could not cope up.... So it got broken.

Then Ganesa felt it as another challenge of Circumstances... or an Obstacle..!! ... To the God of Obstacle-Clearance...!!!

Within a Trice of a Second... Ganesa broke one of His own Horns and continued writing fast, ensuring unaffected Speed.

Vyasa immediately shed tears... seeing this Remarkable gesture of Sacrifice...

... by this SMALL-BOY Ganesa...

... just to keep up to the Commitment ... coupled with the Utmost sense of DUTY.

Vyasa blessed Him and advised to leave the Broken-Horn unchanged... as a Divine-Message to Humanity... that...

DUTY IS THE TOP-MOST PRIORITY... Over all other Considerations ... including One's Self-Interests in Life.

[Raghu]

Dear sudhama sir

Wonder ful posts, esp the last line.

by the way, pls reply to P.messages i have sent in the last couple of weeks.

thanks a lot sir

[viggop]

HariKirshnan Sir
I'm awaiting your post on Duryodhana's ascent to heaven. :)

[Badri]

Raghavan's little story on the above is really worthy reading. Please do go through Yudhistra's journey in heaven...

http://forumhub.mayyam.com/hub/viewtopic.php?t=4768&highlight=

[mahadevan]

Our epics have a lot of references to demons, are these demons a divergence from our ancestry in evolution, that emphasized on physical strength rather than intellect ?
In ramayana we do have monkey kindoms, are they also similar species that diverged from ours. Vaali/sukriva 's kingdoms had so many monkey soilders that are amenable like humans.

[Romani]

Dear friends,

I am a newbie here. Rarely have I seen such scholarly discussions on the Mahabharatam as I see here. My namaskaram to all the people who have contributed to the discussion.

While glancing thru the previous pages I saw a query from someone, on why Duryodhana with all his sins ended up in heaven. Since I have a theory of my own I would like to share it with you all. Let me whether I am right or wrong.

For all his sinful nature, Duryodhana personified the human element of bravery and manliness. He was the man who had no fear even the most dangerous circumstances. He embodied pride and self confidence. Let me quote from the Mahabharatam, where Duryodhana with his thighs broken down, in deep pain, with all his hopes dashed and himself awaiting death, tells Sanjaya to console his parents thus (note the number of times he asks with pride - who is more fortunate than himself)

Quote :

My parents are not ignorant of the duties of battle. Instructed by me, O Sanjaya, tell them that are afflicted with grief these words: I have performed sacrifices, supported a large number of servants properly, governed the whole earth with her seas! I stayed on the heads of my living foes! I gave wealth to my kinsmen to the extent of my abilities, and I did what was agreeable to friends. I withstood all my foes. Who is there that is more fortunate than myself? I have made progresses through hostile kingdoms and commanded kings as slaves. I have acted handsomely towards all I loved and liked. Who is there more fortunate than myself? I honoured all my kinsmen and attended to the welfare of all my dependants. I have attended to the three ends of human existence, Religion, Profit, and Pleasure! Who is there more fortunate than myself? I laid my commands on great kings, and honour, unattainable by others, was mine, I always made my journeys on the very best of steeds. Who is there more fortunate than myself? I studied the Vedas and made gifts according to the ordinance. My life has passed in happiness. By observance of the duties of my own order, I have earned many regions of blessedness hereafter. Who is there more fortunate than myself? By good luck, I have not been vanquished in battle and subjected to the necessity of serving my foes as masters. By good luck, O lord, it is only after my death that my swelling prosperity abandons me for waiting upon another! That which is desired by good Kshatriyas observant of the duties of their order, that death, is obtained by me! Who is there so fortunate as myself? By good luck, I did not suffer myself to be turned away from the path of hostility and to be vanquished like an ordinary person! By good luck, I have not been vanquished after I had done some base act! Like the slaughter of a person that is asleep or that is heedless, like the slaughter of one by the administration of poison, my slaughter hath taken place, for I have been slain as unrighteously, in contravention of the rules of fair fight! The highly blessed Ashvatthama, and Kritavarma of the Satwata race, and Saradwat's son Kripa, should be told these words of mine, 'You should never repose any confidence upon the Pandavas, those violators of rules, who have perpetrated many unrighteous acts!'

(MBH Shalya Parvan 9.61 Tr. Kisari Mohan Ganguli)

End Quote

[S.Balaji]

Romani...

Well said.... Kisari Mohan Ganguli is one of the veterans on epics......

Yes....its true that despite Duryodhana's wickedness and animosity towards Pandavas...he was a good ruler....administered his subjects well...

Lived like a true Kshatriya...and died as a Kshatriya....in a warfield

He finally reserved his rightful place in Heaven....

[Sudhaama]

... Why SWARGA for Duryodana.?


Romani...

Well said.... Kisari Mohan Ganguli is one of the veterans on epics......

Yes....its true that despite Duryodhana's wickedness and animosity towards Pandavas...he was a good ruler....administered his subjects well...

Lived like a true Kshatriya...and died as a Kshatriya....in a warfield

He finally reserved his rightful place in Heaven....

Duryodana was NEVER THE RULER KING on the Throne... but only his father Dhritharashtra, even on the day when a grave Injustice was meted out to Dhraupathi... on the commands of Duryodana... the EMBODIMENT of wickedness.

Mahabharatha nowhere praises Duryodana under any context ... but the Negative.

When the Question of Successor to Dhritharashtra was taken up for consideration... the Royal- Scholars -Team headed by Bhishma declared Duryodana as Unfit to become a King...

.. and only Yudhishtra was the most suitable and the best Qualified to occupy the Throne... by the dint of all the tenets of a Ruler Successor..

Such a spark of negation and Denial for the claim by Duryodana... enraged him against Bhishma and Pandavas... which was further fanned up by Karna.

Despite all the Negative points towards his discredit, Duryodana got qualified to reach SWARGA ... by the following justifications.

(1) Mahabharatha occurred at the final stages of Krishnawathara.. and so it forms part of it. Only on the appeal of Bhoomi-dhevi, Krishna had to take another birth on Earth, just to annihilate the mass of worst Sinners and establish the Greatness of Righteousness... especially amongst the Ruler Kings.. In that respect He needed the Co-operation of the Positive and Negative forces as well. Duryodana trapped under extreme Jealousy became IGNORANT on Life-principles.. Thus he fell in line with the machinations of Krishna, resulting in destroyal of all the mass of the Wicked forces in the shape of Mankind. .. which part of service to God even though on the Negative side, deserves recognition.

(2) As Kshathriya, Duryodana's duty was to face the War. He did it DUTIFULLY, for which he was rewarded.

(3) The most important factor is SAJJANA- SAHAVAASAM...Sasthras affirm, that even a worst Sinner can be condoned .. if he befriends and supports Good people so called Sajjanas. Duryodana was fully qualified in that respect by his TIMELY SUPPORT to Karna, as well as to keeping the Stalwarts like Bhishma, Kripa, Drona and so on.. along with his side... He even befriended Lord Krishna . Such high values of Royal- strategy should not be left unrecognised.

So,.. for taking the WRONG-SIDE... those Good people Karna, Bishma, Drona, Krupa and such others were miserably punished.

... while on the other side... just for joining and patronising the Sajjanas the RIGHT GREATS... the Wicked Duryodana was provisionally exonerated to Swarga. .. postponing his other part of facing the music for his sins.

One IMPORTANT factor... we must not forget. Swarga is ..ONLY A TEMPORARY STATUS of pleasure, on completion of which one has to take the due rebirth and face the past Remnant Karma.

Not similar to MUKTHI... Liberation from Rebirth... the Greatest outcome of God's grace saving from further onslaughts of sufferings.

Eternal Life- Lesson for Mankind... from God.... more by action than by Words.

[Raghu]

Yes, Like Sudhama sir said, Duryodhana never ruled Hastinapur, it was under the admin of His Father!

But one MUST accept the fact, that Duryodhana never used Yuth Adharma to in the war, well, may be except when abhimanyu was killed by a group of warriors, including Duryodhana him self!

[Sudhaama]

Yes, Like Sudhama sir said, Duryodhana never ruled Hastinapur, it was under the admin of His Father!

But one MUST accept the fact, that Duryodhana never used Yuth Adharma to in the war, well, may be except when abhimanyu was killed by a group of warriors, including Duryodhana him self!

One Criminal cruelly murdered his own mother, and then conducted her last rites, sincerely with pomp and great show.

In such a case,...Does he become qualified to be GLORIFIED... or CONDONED?

[Raghu]

Yes, Like Sudhama sir said, Duryodhana never ruled Hastinapur, it was under the admin of His Father!

But one MUST accept the fact, that Duryodhana never used Yuth Adharma to in the war, well, may be except when abhimanyu was killed by a group of warriors, including Duryodhana him self!

One Criminal cruelly murdered his own mother, and then conducted her last rites, sincerely with pomp and great show.

In such a case,...Does he become qualified to be GLORIFIED... or CONDONED?

Sudhama Sir, who duryodhana? :shock: , pls explain

[Sudhaama]

Yes, Like Sudhama sir said, Duryodhana never ruled Hastinapur, it was under the admin of His Father!

But one MUST accept the fact, that Duryodhana never used Yuth Adharma to in the war, well, may be except when abhimanyu was killed by a group of warriors, including Duryodhana him self!

One Criminal cruelly murdered his own mother, and then conducted her last rites, sincerely with pomp and great show.

In such a case,...Does he become qualified to be GLORIFIED... or CONDONED?

Sudhama Sir, who duryodhana? :shock: , pls explain

My words can be taken in Two different senses.

(1) One as a Simile... Similarity... Parallel Example, similar to Literatures, including Thirukkuralh. So to say, the Answer whatever is due in the Example, will become applicable in the case of Duryodhana too.

(2) Two in the direct sense.. or Metaphor.. Imagine Dharma as Duryodana's mother he had already murdered tyrannically inch by inch since long years all through his past life....

... then preaching sermons to others and pretending as if he strictly follows the Rule-of War-Discipline and Battle-codes of practice.

All illusory and Self-centred Drama to cheat the Right-minded people.

A Simple example...

A murderer is rendered the punishment of Death. Can he ask back that the King also has become a Criminal by committing the same Crime of killing another criminal. So the King too deserves the equal punishment!!

Besides... the next and the MOST IMPORTANT MORAL LESSON ...in Mahabharatha...

Why God Krishna, showed Out-of- the- ways... to his followers Arjuna and Yudhishtra?... Can't He not have performed in the direct approaches and won over the Evils... without violating the War-Codes prevalent then?

By this does Krishna not deserve to be blamed for instigating Lawlessness, Violation of Moral-Codes, Partiality, Bias and Exploiitation of the Opponent's Dhaarmic adherences.?

I welcome Friends to answer this IMPORTANT QUESTION...

I will reply as the last... after hearing from all of you.

[S.Balaji]

Mr. Sudhama....

Let me try to put my views on your question on Lord Krishna's acts of using Adharma... to finish the war...

Lord Krishna's main objective was reestablish DHARMA..... to do that ..... he didnt mind even doing ADHARMA... to render justice.....
this prompted him to venture into all adharmic ways to eliminate giants like Bheeshma, Drona, Karna and even Duryodhana finally....
( infact he will ask Arjuna to shoot an arrow on Purisiravas...who actually will be fighting another guy... Satyaki and not Arjuna... but still Srikrishna pushed Arjuna to shoot that arrow.... because... Satyaki was representing the Dharmic forces ..led by Yudhistira.... )

Probably this could be the reason...

There is also a saying in Tamil...

THANNAI KOLLA VANDHA PASUVAYUM KOLLALAAM...

[S.Balaji]

Can someone enlighten me on this query :

The Mahabaratha epic covered few countries only...rather only Barath...( even considering Kandahar - kingdom of Sakuni to be part of India earlier ).... I could not see participants from other countries...

Does it mean that during this period..only India was in existence...

[Lambretta]

Or maybe even other civilisations (I can think of only the Egyptian/Sumerian) tat were in existence then were too far flung from India so there was poss' no chance of contact for them w/ India then.......?

[Raghu]

Can someone enlighten me on this query :

The Mahabaratha epic covered few countries only...rather only Barath...( even considering Kandahar - kingdom of Sakuni to be part of India earlier ).... I could not see participants from other countries...

Does it mean that during this period..only India was in existence...

Dear Balaji anNe,

Let me try, pls pardon me if I am wrong, Dwapara yuga was supposed to be older than 5,000 yrs old, bharath, probably consisted of Afghanistan,Iran, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Nepal, Tibet, and probably some countries which are situated above Nepal as well, Srilanka was never part of it, cos in Ramayana which was prior to Mahabharth occured in 'Satya Yuga', in which Lanka was clearly mentioned

[viggop]

In a TV program,Tamil professor Gnanasampandham said this story

The pandavas were jealous that Lord Krishna was always priasing Karnan.
So, they said to Krishna that they'll exceed Karna's magnanimity.So, Lord Krishna created a mountain of gold coins and a mountain of silver coins and asked pandavas to distribute to poor.Pandavas distributed to all the poor people who vame and asked for charity but the mountain of gold and silver coins never became empty.

Then,Lord Krishna asked Karnan to come and asked him to distribute the wealth to poor.When karnan was there, 2 poor people came and asked for charity.Karnan ordered the ENTIRE MOUNTAIN of gold coins to be given to one poor man and the entire mountain of silver coins to another poor man.Hence, it disappeared within a second.
Pandavas , on seeing this, were humbled and understood why Krishna regarded Karna's magnanimity better than themselves.

[viggop]

In the war, When Krishna asked Karnan to donate all his dharmas,Karnan gave it willingly to Krishna.A drop of karnan;s blood also fell on Krishna and because of this,even Lord Krishna asked "Whether you want anything from me?" Lord Krishna never gives anything that easily to anyone.Even the most devout will be tested and he will play with them for a while before handing out anything to them.But, a drop of Karnan's blood made even the Lord ask whether anything is needed from him! such is greatness of Karnan's magnanimous character.
When you come into contact with magnanimous people, you will also become magnanimous and the goodness will spread.

[Raghu]

Yes, though Partha was Lord Krishna's beloved friend, he had the MOST respect for Karna

[srivatsanvr]

Hello This is my firat post! I am happy post my first post in this great topic!

MahaBharatha-The Jaya should be made the National Epic for its accomplishment to the Humanity!

[Lambretta]

Yes making it a National Epic wud be fine, provided the present gen. India has ne interest/regard for all this, which is rather diluted at present! :(

[Raghu]

Yes making it a National Epic wud be fine, provided the present gen. India has ne interest/regard for all this, which is rather diluted at present! :(

Lamby,

Ignorant is a bliss, what to do, ellam Mayaiyin vizhaiyatu :(

[Lambretta]

Aama ellame namma thale ezhuthu thaan......enna syiamudiyum! :( :huh:

[viggop]

Story of Aravan
================

This character plays a very small part in mahabharatha.
Aravan is supposed to be son of Arjuna and a Tribal woman.He will be sacrificed before the start of war(narabali). It seems only persons who have 64 characteristics of a male can be killed.Only Krishna and Aravan qualified for this.Aravan was chosen to be sacrificed as Krishna was indispensable to the Pandavas.Before dying,on the eve, he wished that he should get married.But, no one was willing to give their girl to a person who is going to die tomorrow.Lord Krishna changed himself as a woman and married aravan.Next day Aravan was sacrificed.

There is also a story that Nakula(who was great in astrology) suggested this idea to Duryodhana! I'm not sure which is the correct version

[a.ratchasi]

The following has been a mind boggling one for quite some time.
Finally I have the time and memory to put it forth here. Hope the hubbers could shed some light on this.

Why did Drona who vowed vengence against Drupada, taught archery to Sikhandi?

[Raghu]

Why did Drona who vowed vengence against Drupada, taught archery to Sikhandi?

Never head this before, will get back to you on this!

[viggop]

Shikandi is an reincarnation of Amba.Bhishma forcibly abducted amba/ambalika and another princess and defeated and killed their beloved prince who was about to marry them.
Amba comittied suicide and it is said she prayed to Lord Murugan(!) to grant her rebirth so that she could take revenge on Bhishmar.
On rebirth, Shikandi as a man, wears some garland which was left by Amba before she committed suicide and becomes half-woman.

Kirshna uses Shikandi as a front against Bhishma in the final battle with Arjuna.Arjuna, sends arrows from behind shikandi and fells Bhsihma.
I am not sure who taught shikandi archery.I do not think it is Dronacharya

[srivatsanvr]

Why did Drona who vowed vengence against Drupada, taught archery to Sikhandi?

Never head this before, will get back to you on this!

May be it is Drona's greatness, that he taught, Archery, even to his enemy's son: Infact, if the student is deserving, Guru will teach him.

[Arthi]

Shikandi is an reincarnation of Amba.Bhishma forcibly abducted amba/ambalika and another princess and defeated and killed their beloved prince who was about to marry them.
Amba comittied suicide and it is said she prayed to Lord Murugan(!) to grant her rebirth so that she could take revenge on Bhishmar.
On rebirth, Shikandi as a man, wears some garland which was left by Amba before she committed suicide and becomes half-woman.

Kirshna uses Shikandi as a front against Bhishma in the final battle with Arjuna.Arjuna, sends arrows from behind shikandi and fells Bhsihma.
I am not sure who taught shikandi archery.I do not think it is Dronacharya

Did Amba commit suicide???
She prayed to Lord shiva :?: not MURUGA :?:
clarify plz

[srivatsanvr]

Nice quiz Vinugop... scored 22/25 :-)

3 that eluded me are : First arrow (Dhushasana), Beema's son's guru (krishna) and Jayatrada (Shiva's boon).

ummmmmmmmmm :( I scored only 20/25

[srivatsanvr]

Why shd not we talk about Vidhura and some important aspects of Vidhura neethi! For Vidhura is the one who saved all the Paandavas from "Vaaranavatam", when Dhuryodhana planned to burn them alive!

Infact it is an interesting scene...the way Vidura saved Paanadavas! Here it comes!

Paanadavas along with Kunthi are leaving for Vaaranaavatham. Before leaving they are getting the blessings of Dhritharashtra, Bhishma, Drona and other elders of the family. When they come to Vidura to get his blessings, who had smelled the collusion of Dhuryodhana and Sakhuni, asks a question to Yudhistra, in front of all the elders!

The question is:"Which animal can escape from a great forest fire"? At once, Yudhishtra says, only a rat can do that as it can make holes in the ground and hence can escape when there is a forest fire! This question was totally out of context and hence no one gave importance, but for Yudhishtra!

In their way to Vaaranavatham, Yudhishtra was deeply contemplating on Vidhura's question for he knew that Vidhura will not waste his words!

After reaching the palace, Yudhishtra came to know that there was only one entrance/exit for the entire palace and he also started smelling the conspiracy! As a custom, local people came to see their Prince, with few gifts and the Paandavas accepted them happily. There was a last person, who came with a cage in this hand and handed over the cage to Yudhistra as a gift.

When Bhima saw what was inside the cage, he was surprised to see that, as what he saw was a "RAT". So Bhima asked him,"Do you think, it is wise to bring a Rat as a gift, that too when you are coming to see a King?"
The hard-looking man replied, "Oh! Mighty Prince, don't under estimate the Rat, as it is the only Animal, which can escape from a Forest fire"

Hearing this, Yudhishtra gets a spark and identifies him as the man sent by Vidura. Thus the hard-looking man, who was sent by Vidhura is an expert in creating underground passage!

[viggop]

Hi Srivatsan
This is a new story to me.Not heard of that before.Can you recall the entire portion here? Why are they asked to move to a wax palace etc?What happened when they escaped the fire. This thread will become active again

[Raghu]

Good to see the thread being re-activated, I will get back on the topic very soon

[Arthi]

Nice quiz Vinugop... scored 22/25 :-)

3 that eluded me are : First arrow (Dhushasana), Beema's son's guru (krishna) and Jayatrada (Shiva's boon).

ummmmmmmmmm :( I scored only 20/25

what Quiz :roll: can I participate?

[bingleguy]

Hi All !

:D

[bingleguy]

Hi All !

:D

[srivatsanvr]

Priya Ar. Viggop!

Thanks for giving me the previlage to narrate this great story!

After the Graduation of Paandavs and Kauravas, Dhritharashtra was in a compulsion to announce, who is the next King of Bharatha Dynasty. Though, by rule Yudhishtra was the Heir-Apparant, his putrapaasam held him back and he consulted with Bhishma, Kripa and Vidura about this, without showing his hidden agenda. Those three gentle men said, Yudhishtra shd be announced as an heir apparant of the Dynasty.

An unsatisfied Dhritharaashtra, set spies to know the mentality of people. The people's mentality and his own courtier's mentality was directly against his own wish of ascending his Son Dhuryodhana,as the next King. At once, Dhritharashtra consults one of his Ministers, by name, Kanika. Kanika's advices are one of the most controversial advices, which we will see later. Kanika's advices as seen even today as a practice. If we see the foreign policy of USA, it is alomost very close to Kanika's Rajaneethi(Though, they do not know that). Anyway, Kanika indirectly adviced Dhritharashtra that, the only way out is "to kill Paandavas with Kunthi".

will continue soon......

[viggop]

dear Srivatsan.
That was an interesting post.I have never heard of this Kanika before.What a twisted 'needhi' he has offered to Dritharashtra!

[shoyonika]

Kanika was a brahmin living in forests of saurashtra.
He was invited by Duryodhana on persuasion from Sakuni, who had had his friendship with kanika from years.
Kanika was banished from his country of malwa because he was a kootaneethigna(cunning). His treachery towards the king of malwa, had made him infamous with the subjects. But Brahmin he was, and never could be given death-sentence( as a brahmin should not be puinished even after his sins are proved but has to be sent to exile with family) so he was banished along with his family.
But his family removed him from their group and went away to magadha to seek help from the ruler for their livelihood.
So he had to live in a forced exile in the forests of sourashtra from where he was asked to come to the court of hastinapur to deliver a lecture to dhrthrashtra to encourage duryodhana to wage the wars against pandavas.
It is said that when he came to hastinapur to teach the blind king, he came empty handed, but, on his way home, he had taken the Rajya-Lakshmi(the goodluck) of hastinapur with him. But so far no mention has been made about his wife or his whereabouts after his infamous kanikaneethi in hastinapur.

[viggop]

I'm surprised that Dritharashtra colluded with this plot to kill off Pandavas.I was of the opinion that though dritharashtra's puthrapasam wanted the kingdom for his son duryodhana, he never went as far as to kill the Pandavas or involved himself in any plot like this.
Only Duryodhana and Shakuni were involving themselves in such plots.
Can anyone confirm that Dritharashtra was aware of this plot to kill Pandavas but he willingly allowed it to happen?

[S.Balaji]

I have read Rajaji's vyasar virundhu and nowhere it mentions that Dirudhirashtra was aware of the plot to kill the pandavas....
Infact, on hearing the news that the pandavas were killed in fire inside the wax bungalow, he will be in tears and will cry along with Gandhari....

Indeed Diru was eager to have his son in the throne basically because he could not occupy as he was blind ........but this new story that he was part of the plot to kill pandavas is something ridiculous to hear ....

Any argument has to based on some facts.....

[shoyonika]

dhrtharashtra was never willing for the war, instead, he was trying to prevent the war as he knew the strength of dharma was more than strength of thousands of elephants. But fate wanted different things to happen, and so came kanika, who brainwashed dhrtharashtra to wage wars to prevent the death of his own sons,duryodhana and all. All this can be found in Mahabharatha in full published by all India Brahman sangha and also by moola bharatha of choukhamba samskrith samsthan, you can find one more in geetha press gorakhpur`s edition of vyasabharatha.

[kannannn]

I have read Rajaji's vyasar virundhu and nowhere it mentions that Dirudhirashtra was aware of the plot to kill the pandavas....
Infact, on hearing the news that the pandavas were killed in fire inside the wax bungalow, he will be in tears and will cry along with Gandhari....

Indeed Diru was eager to have his son in the throne basically because he could not occupy as he was blind ........but this new story that he was part of the plot to kill pandavas is something ridiculous to hear ....

Any argument has to based on some facts.....

Balaji, what you quote is interesting. Because, I remember (and checked now to be double sure) 'Vyasar Virundhu' saying that Dridharashtra did know of the plot. Infact, Rajaji says that when pandavas return after their marriage to Panchali, Dridharashtra is first disappointed that they are alive, but hides his disappointment.

[viggop]

This is news to me. I had not known that Dritharashtra was actually involved in this plot or knew about its existence.

To continue with the story, what happened after that? Did the man sent by Vidura dig a underground tunnel for the Pandavas?

[S.Balaji]

Vidura suspected something fishy in the arrangement by Durodhana and he indirectly warns the pandavas to be careful.
The pandavas after this , were very watchful and never slept peacefully.
Gradually, Bheema digs a tunnel which leads to the city end ......
In anticipation of the emerging trouble, the pandavas swiftly move out of the palace and escape through the tunnel...
the palace will be set ablaze by Shakuni's men .... there will also be 5 men and 2 women inside ( appointed by Shakuni to take care ) unfortunately they will be burnt to ashes....

this will make everyone believe that the pandavas had died and everyone will cry...

I think even Dirudhirastra and Gandhari also will cry

Kannan.....
Are you sure, Rajaji mentions that Dirudhirashtra was AWARE OF THE PLOT TO KILL PANDAVAS BY SENDING THEM TO THE WAX PALACE ?

[a.ratchasi]

After the Graduation of Paandavs and Kauravas, Dhritharashtra was in a compulsion to announce, who is the next King of Bharatha Dynasty...

Actually, the Pandavas animation had this part of the narration in it.

More on this (http://www.urday.com/conspiracy.htm)

Film Details (http://www.mandy.com/1/film3.cfm?id=624)

[kannannn]

Kannan.....
Are you sure, Rajaji mentions that Dirudhirashtra was AWARE OF THE PLOT TO KILL PANDAVAS BY SENDING THEM TO THE WAX PALACE ?
I am absolutely sure. Initially he is hesistant, but on the persistent nagging of Duryodhana he finally agrees.

[shoyonika]

In anticipation of the emerging trouble, the pandavas swiftly move out of the palace and escape through the tunnel...
the palace will be set ablaze by Shakuni's men .... there will also be 5 men and 2 women inside ( appointed by Shakuni to take care ) unfortunately they will be burnt to ashes....
1). Shakuni hatched a plan to kill Pandavas and to fulfill it, sent minister puranjana to build a lac castle (lakshagriha) at Vaaranaavata. He now told Duryodhana to convince Dhrtharashtra to send Pandavas to Vaaranaavata, which ofcourase was not too difficult as there was an annual festival going on at Vaaranaavata at that time. Dhrtharashtra knew nothing of the plan and sent for Dharmaraja, who inturn agreed to pay his obeisence to the deities at the festival. Pandavas left for Vaaranaavata. Now Vidura, who overheard the Shakuni-Duryodhana plan to kill Pandavas, sent a messenger to Pandavas, describing the map of the palace with the underground tunnel made by Puranjana, the minister to Duryodhana, to escape after setting fire to the castle.(Puranjana had planned this tunnel to escape immediatley after setting fire to the castle as soon as the Pandavas fall asleep). Lastly Vidura also mentioned of him sending a boat for them at the end of the castle to move across river.
2). After this message was read out by Bhima to Dharmaraja(Yudhishtira), they chalked out a plan. It was not difficult to manage, as a Bhillapurangri(hunter`s wife) and her 5 sons had dozed off due to overdrinking. The unsuspecting Puranjana was waiting for the Pandavas to fall asleep in the other end of the castle. Now it was the Pandavas`s turn to act wise. Bhima waked all up and with the help of Arjuna, set fire to the castle leaving the gap for them to move towards the tunnel. After this, he carried all his brothers and mother Kunti on his shoulders to the other end until they were out of danger. Here they saw Vidura`s boat waiting for them and rowed over to the other side of the river safely. Here they met Dhaumya Rishi who later became their Kulpurohit. After this comes the episode of killing of Hidimbasura, Marrying Hidimbi and moving to city of Ekachakra. By this time, the bodies of the 5 sons with their mother, the hunter`s wife, were recovered in a very bad condition along with Puranjana`s. So the people thought Pandavas along with mother Kunti were dead in the last night`s fire outbreak and so was Puranjana.
3). After all these incidents, and the return of Pandavas, though happy at first, Dhrtharashtra could not hide his fears as he had soon come to know through Vidura that his son Duryodhana and Shakuni were responsible for the fire. Now he had started to develop a sort of step-motherly attitude towards the Pandavas as he knew they would kill his children had he denied their request to grant them their holds. The reason for him not being happy for their return was he was frightened that the end of his children was soon approaching.

[aanaa]

do u have title songs in mp3 format - prefer tamil version

[Raghu]

Kannapa, a tribal hunter, was a devoted follower of Lord Siva and one of the 63 Nayanars. Once a priest at the temple objected to his offering meat to a Siva linga. Lord Siva wanted to test the extent of Kannapa's devotion. Blood issued from the right side of the Linga. Kannapa tried to treat it with herbs but failed. So he gouged out his right eye and used it to cover the bleeding wound. Then the left eye of the linga began to bleed. Kannappa was about to gouge out his left eye when he was stopped by Siva, who took him, placed him on his right side and granted mukti.

According to Swami Sivananda's book, Sixty-Three Nayanar Saints, pg. 44, some Saivite traditions believe that Kannappa was the reincarnation of Arjuna. Arjuna, worshipped Siva for seeking the Pasupatha Astra and failed to recognize Him in the form of a hunter. Thus, according to this tradition, Arjuna had to be born as a hunter and adore the Lord before attaining final liberation. This belief is not adopted by all Hindus.

The famed Kalahasti temple, located near the renowned Tirupati temple is the site of this incident.

[Sudhaama]

Kannapa, a tribal hunter, was a devoted follower of Lord Siva and one of the 63 Nayanars. Once a priest at the temple objected to his offering meat to a Siva linga. Lord Siva wanted to test the extent of Kannapa's devotion. Blood issued from the right side of the Linga. Kannapa tried to treat it with herbs but failed. So he gouged out his right eye and used it to cover the bleeding wound. Then the left eye of the linga began to bleed. Kannappa was about to gouge out his left eye when he was stopped by Siva, who took him, placed him on his right side and granted mukti.

According to Swami Sivananda's book, Sixty-Three Nayanar Saints, pg. 44, some Saivite traditions believe that Kannappa was the reincarnation of Arjuna. Arjuna, worshipped Siva for seeking the Pasupatha Astra and failed to recognize Him in the form of a hunter. Thus, according to this tradition, Arjuna had to be born as a hunter and adore the Lord before attaining final liberation. This belief is not adopted by all Hindus.

The famed Kalahasti temple, located near the renowned Tirupati temple is the site of this incident.

While the devotees take pains to spread the values and greatness of God, especially the form of deity one prefers...

...God in various forms ... adopts the Opposite approach... to spread the due Values and greatness of HIS DEVOTEES...amongst the Society...

... thus exhibiting His Exemplary devotees to be well-known by the public... making them Famous, so as to be followed by even the common-man.

Rather the God in all forms... prefers such approach because four purposes are served. by this typical approach.

(1) God feels happy by making His devotees getting Famous...even if it be of more degree than Himself.... as the case of a Child to the Parents.

(2) Such test-results show the unswerving STEADFASTNESS on devotion,, Forbearance and DETERMINATION with Strong Will-power... which God wants to show to the World... as a Lesson...

... that Not only in the purview of Devotion to God...but also in the Rudimentary Life, Mankind has to adhere to such an Intellectual approach... duly worth for his high birth..

(3) It is an indcation of Recognition for devotion and acceptance of
the particular devotee to His fold... by which gesture, the devotee becomes immensely happy for the accomplishment of his Goal.

(4) By exhibiting the devotee's greatness... God's intention of conveying His message to the beneficiaries, the Mankind... becomes SIMPLIFIED by means of an Episode...

.... better than Preaching a Tough Theory on God-Human relations.

The Story written by Raghu...in general, is correct... and the Kalahasthi Siva Temple is the same where Lord Siva played such an immortal Leela.

... but it is not correct to say that a Priest prevented him from offering Meat to the deity.

In fact, this Forest temple for Lord Siva... was installed by the Hunter Kannappa himself,... treating an ordinary stone picked up by him...as Siva-lingam... for his convenience of daily worship.

Observing the degree and intensity of Devotion... Siva wanted to make the world know of him.... although a simple Hunter... ignorant of any Theory of Devotion or God..

Thus when that Ordinary man... became a Nayanmar... by the dint of impeccable devotion...and finally attained Mukthi, Bliss Sivaloka...

...as also even Navagrahas especially Rahu and Kethu worshipped this Siva-lingam,

... the Thonda-mandala Tamilian King was so impressed that he built up the big Temple at Kalahasthi.. and arranged for Poojas and festivals..

But there is no authenticity to say that the same Arjuna was reborn as Kannppa .... even though Arjuna too was a Staunch Siva-devotee.

Puranas have categorically asserted that both Arjuna and Kannappa attained Salvation / Mukthi... ensuring NO REBIRTH.

The Slokas uttered by Arjuna in the Geetha... in the course of his conversation with Krishna....

... as well as those, while he sees the Viswaroopa darsana of Krishna...

... exhbit his clarity of understanding Krishna's message of One God in several forms.... of choice by the devotees.

One Episode in Mahabharatham... to prove ONE God's various forms....as perceived by Arjuna....

Arjuna was so highly devoted to Lord Siva, that he never used to take daily food prior to conducting Siva-pooja. at a particular Siva-lingam he had installed in the forest similar to Hunter Kannapa.

Once, at a late time for his routine Pooja, Arjuna and Krishna were left at a place quite far away from Arjuna's Siva-Temple. Both felt terribly hungry.

Arjuna said "Krishna, without performing Siva-pooja at my temple, I cannot take food now... even though it is now past mid noon.".

"Oh I see. Well. But by the time you reach your temple it will become night. Can you sustain hunger till then? Without food can you walk so far? ... Best alternative is to worship that Siva from here itself... Or looking at the Sky you can pray Siva. because God is everywhere"

"No Krishna I have to do pooja by Archana to my Temple Siva-lingam only"

"OK. If you are able to see the same Siva-lingam here, will you conduct the Pooja?"

"Yes Krishna, I will be very thankful, if it can be made possible"

Krishna sat on the ground and asked " Look at me Arjuna, what do you see here?"

"Oh Krishna I see the same Lord Siva of my Temple... in you". said Arjuna and conducted the pooja. Then only he took food alongwith Krishna.

The next day Arjuna was wonderstruck to find the same Conduct of the pooja.... as also the garland and the pooja flowers as he performed the pooja....

... were lying on the ...Siva-Lingam of his Temple. of daily worship.!!!

[Raghu]

But there is no authenticity to say that the same Kannappa was reborn as Arjuna.... even though Arjuna too was a Staunch Siva-devotee.



Dear Sudhama Sir, Please forgive me , if I am wrong but ...

Once in a forest, Krishna and Arjuna will be walking, there Krishna will play a leelai for Arjuna to Meet Lord Shiva.., Paremeshwar will take the avatar of a hunter, and will be chasing a Pig, both Arjuna and the Hunter will shoot the pig simaltaneously at the same time, and they will fight over who killed it first, the argument will get Physical and will eventually end un a war, Arjuna will be defeated all the time, eventually, Arjuna will engage in Mal yuth, with Ishwar, Ishwar will hold hug Arjuna and he will not be able to breathe or move, Arjuna will realise the truth and bow down b4 the lord, and conduct a Shiva Pooja and the Lord will give him some Varam( Perhaps that famous Asthram ?.....)

I think this Incident is related to Kannapar nayanar :roll:

[Sudhaama]

But there is no authenticity to say that the same Kannappa was reborn as Arjuna.... even though Arjuna too was a Staunch Siva-devotee.



Dear Sudhama Sir, Please forgive me , if I am wrong but ...

Once in a forest, Krishna and Arjuna will be walking, there Krishna will play a leelai for Arjuna to Meet Lord Shiva.., Paremeshwar will take the avatar of a hunter, and will be chasing a Pig, both Arjuna and the Hunter will shoot the pig simaltaneously at the same time, and they will fight over who killed it first, the argument will get Physical and will eventually end un a war, Arjuna will be defeated all the time, eventually, Arjuna will engage in Mal yuth, with Ishwar, Ishwar will hold hug Arjuna and he will not be able to breathe or move, Arjuna will realise the truth and bow down b4 the lord, and conduct a Shiva Pooja and the Lord will give him some Varam( Perhaps that famous Asthram ?.....)

I think this Incident is related to Kannapar nayanar :roll:

Yes. This episode of Siva-leela with His devotee Arjuna....

... is a part of Mahabharatha. But it has no relation with Kannappa.

[Surya]

Can someone enlighten me about Arjuna's Revenge on those who killed his son "Abhimanyu"? :)

I know that Abhimanu knows how to go into Chakra Vyugam but doesn't know how to come out.

Story Behind It: Krishna Explains to Draupathi about going into Chakra Vyugam when Draupathi is pregnant with Abimanyu. When he finishes on going into it, he sees that Draupathi has fallen Asleep. So he stops there not explaining how to come out. Thus Abhimanyu who listens to his inside Draupathi's Womb, knows how to go in, but not to come out.

So in Battle, Abimanyu goes into Chakra Vyugam, but doesn't know how to come out, so he contines to fight, and is eventually killed because he is enourmously outnumbered....


I know this much, but I don't know anything about Arjuna's Revenge. :)

[pamrang]

Story Behind It: Krishna Explains to Draupathi about going into Chakra Vyugam when Draupathi is pregnant with Abimanyu. When he finishes on going into it, he sees that Draupathi has fallen Asleep. So he stops there not explaining how to come out.

Sorry, a little correction, if I may - Arjuna was explaining the chakravyuha to Subhadra when she was pregnant with Abhimanyu.

[Surya]

:oops: Thanks for the correction! :)

Any info on the revenge? :)

[Sudhaama]

Story Behind It: Krishna Explains to Draupathi about going into Chakra Vyugam when Draupathi is pregnant with Abimanyu. When he finishes on going into it, he sees that Draupathi has fallen Asleep. So he stops there not explaining how to come out.

Sorry, a little correction, if I may - Arjuna was explaining the chakravyuha to Subhadra when she was pregnant with Abhimanyu.

Not Arjuna... Surya is correct by saying that it was Krishna.

Once Subhadra asked Krishna out of curiosity " Oh Krishna. I heard several Expert- warriors praise highly of Chakra-vyooham...

...one of the War-strategies to be challenged and fought out in a particluar order and sequence... by a SOLITARY WARRIOR . What is that great in it?"

Krishna replied..." Subhadra, you are thinking so cheap ot it, since you don't know its magnitude and might... to be fought against single-handedly...

.... while a huge Army stands in Concentric Circular-rows, one within the other.... protecting the Commander at centre....

... presenting a frightful image either to enter or exit."

"Then how can it be possible to be fought by a Single man facing a huge mass of Warriors." asked Subhadra

" Yes Subhadra, there lies the secret of its strategy. Rather it is a challenge. If nobody comes forward to face the challenge by the Enemy, it will mean a Silent acceptance of defeat.

So when all other War-tactics fail or dubious of Victory... the Wise warriors used to choose this tough alternative...

...which can be countered only by a Complex mights of Wisdom, Memory, Valour and multiple Warfare-competence.

As per the rules of Chakra-vyooham... some will be dummies at the specified locations... while some others the real warriors. Who are the dummies and who are not.... is the Secret...

Such order of locations used to be different for the Entry and Exit

Immediately when the Counter-warrior has succeeded the entry and reached its central point....

...there stands one Solitary warrior of Super might. .. who has to be won over singlehandedly prior to return.

After winning over him the Counterer has to unaffectedly get out of the Vyooham by fighting persistently ..

.. which Return-order conforms to another formulae and order of sequence.

So the Enemy army suddenly changes the locations immediately after successful entry.of the Counterer

So the most important factor is the particular order of Combat- force locations by its a standard... which has to be meticulously remembered and wisely followed by the Challenger.

In such and such order the Enemy Fight-locations has to be identified and felled down... but ignoring so and so dummy locations, even though posing terrific.... while entry and reach the Central warrior" said Krishna.to Subhadra.

Then Krishna just paused for a moment... when he heard a Voice from within the Womb of Subhadra..."Oohm"

Krishna was wonderstruck to know that another person too was over-hearing the Secret...

...although not intended for him being too early... as immature and not even a fully grown baby in the womb

By that time Subhadra's Snore was heard, since she fell fast asleep....

Then Krishna stopped describing further and left off.

But when the Kauravas challenged the warrior Abhimanyu who won over all his Combatants successfully by other warfares...

...Abhimanyu felt light of Chakra-vyooham and thought..." Oh I know how to enter. In the same order I can come out.(which was wrong as per Stipulations... but based on his Surmise or Assumptions)

So he RASHLY ventured into it, ignoring his elders advice. By means of his half-knowledge he could successfully advance by entry and defeat the Central warrior too.

But when he wrongly ventured in the same order while return...

...the enemies grouped against him and made him fall down from his chariot.

While he struggled to get up...against the onslaughts from five warriors all around...

.. Jayathradhan joined as the sixth man from behind... who repeatedly stabbed Abhimanyu from the back and miserably killed him like a Hunter on an animal...

... not like a Warrior with another equal, face to face... in the Battlefield.

Arjuna's contention was....

(1) No doubt my son Abhimanyu erred in his warfare... which could have been taken advantage of by proper means of moblising the right forces in greater magnitude as per stipulations.

And in such a course if my son was defeated or even killed, I wouldn't mind as was the case of Bheema's son Gatothgaja was felled down by Sakthi ayudham conforming to the Regulations of War.

There neither Bheema nor myself have any grievance... because in a war it is natural and acceptable.

But Abhimanyu was killed by six persons... all violating the stipulations of Chakra-vyooham....especially by stabbing at the back by Jayathradha ... the WORST UNFAIRNESS and CRUEL out of all.. So he is my deadliest enemy.

(2) While we feel aggrieved for the loss of our another Son Gadothgaja too, we are proud that his death was an honourable one... being Veera- maranham ... Death with Valour

..while my son Abhimanyu's death was caused by total Violations of SIX warriors simultaneously. ..which made him unable to not even pick up his arms fallen closeby on the ground....

... further worsened by Jayathradha killing like an Animal. thus Abhimanyu could not qualify himself for Veera-maranham...

...but only Narakam, even though a warrior who fought until the last moment for a noble cause.

It is a grave injustice to my great son... because of war-violations by the SIX Enemies... especially by Jayathradha.

(3) When challenged so by Arjuna... calling for Jayathradha to fight against Arjuna single-handedly...or seek an apology for his grave violation of warfare.... Jayathradha stealthily escaped without accepting the challenge and IGNORING two options offered by Arjuna.

This enraged Arjuna who felt " Jayathradha is a Coward to hide himself like a Thief instead of facing the Challenge from a warrior.".

He felt it shameful to leave a War-Defaulter cum Coward escape anymore unaffected.

So he determined as a Revenge...to search and kill Jayathradha...

...in which respect the Cunning game of Sakuni was foiled by Krishna's miraculous support.

The main Lessons here are ...

(1) Immature or incomplete knowledge will not help to achieve the Goal.

(2) Rashness in decisions... without realising the Realitty... or by the lack of adequate Self-assessment... will be disasterous.

So, similar to ....Thrishanku swargam.... Kattabomman-Veeraappu...

...ABHIMANYU- VIVEKAM....... has become another proverb.

[kannannn]

ooh! correct me if I am wrong. Was it not supposedly predestined that Abhimanyu should die in war? Was it not the reason, Arjuna was called away by Krishna deliberately when he was half-way through his explanation to Subhadra? Atleast that's what I've heard say.

[Sudhaama]

ooh! correct me if I am wrong. Was it not supposedly predestined that Abhimanyu should die in war? Was it not the reason, Arjuna was called away by Krishna deliberately when he was half-way through his explanation to Subhadra? Atleast that's what I've heard say.

No. The Question of Arjuna does not arise here. Please see my post above.

[kannannn]

OK. Thanks Sudhama. But about his going to 'Narakam', I remember Rajaji's 'Vyasar Virundhu', where he says he attains 'Veera Swargam'. Again correct me if I am wrong.

[Surya]

Sudhamma Ji,
Thanks you VERY MUCH for that very detailed and enlightening post! :D

On Arjuna's Revenge, and also on what Chakra Vyugam was! :D

[Raghu]

Dear Sudhama sir and others, can some 1 pls answer these

1) What was Karna's bow, called?

2)What was Karna's Son called?

3) Didn't Arjuna kill Karna's son to take revenge for killing 'Assisted' Cowardly killing of Abhimanyu?

[viggop]

What I have heard about chakra vyooham.It is supposed to be known as Padma Vyooham in which Abhimanyu died,,i think

Suicide warriors belonging to kauravas side challenge arjuna and they take him away by taunting him.Because his ego was punctured by these guys,arjuna goes after them inspite of Krishna's advice.Meanwhile, as there is no one to enter Padma Vyooham,Bhima requests Abhimanyu to enter as abhimanyu claims knowledge of entry.Bhima assures abhimanyu that he & other pandavas will also help him in his return.Abhimanyu enters the vyooham with Duryodhana being the central warrior in the vyooham.Jayadratha had got a boon from Lord Shiva that he can defeat all pandavas except arjuna for a day.He uses this boon and wards off Yudishtra,Bhima,Nakula and sahadeva from following abhimanyu into the vyooham and they are unable to help him.

I think it was one of duryodhana;s son who finally kills abhimanyu with the blow in the back.By that time, he is very tired as all his weapons are broken.Karna breaks abhimanyu's bow by shooting from behind as per Dronacharya's advide.All these actions are adharmic.

[viggop]

I think Karna's bow is called "Vijaya". Arjuna does kill Karna's sons.I think one of the sons also took to drive karna's chariots in the war

[Surya]

Yes, Karna's Bow is called Vijaya.

[pizzalot]

I have no doubts it is the greatest literary work. But I cannot withstand the morals in it.

I do not even agree that Pandavas were legitimate claimers of the throne. It was Bhishma who should be the ruler. When he himself supported Duryodhana why were the Pandavas wanting the throne ? On what rights ? The entire administration was supporting Dhuryodhana.

Next thing is I do not believe word by word of this epic. Karna was the son of a Charoteer. But he was hailed and praised by Dhuryodhana. I see in Dhuryodhana the heart and mind to accept a lesser previleged man. For me he looks more virtuous than Pandavas.

Pandavas won the war by crooked means. They did not have experience to rule. They had no expert advicers like Bhishma/Dhuryodhana. Then how did they rule ?

Based on what I read, this war was the greatest genocide in Indian history. And all because of Pandavas. No where in Mahabharatha there is evidence that Dhuryodhana and Co were not good rulers. Their people were after-all happy. The Pandavas were simply the "rebels" or the "destroyers". All for "greed" of power. They could have been the insurgents in real life.

Just because they had Krishna on their side, they won the war. In anycase, why did Krishan support Arjuna ? Just because Arjuna is related ? Or because he asked him for help first ? Should he not, instead, think who the people of the country fovoured ? Kauravas with the intellectuals on their side obviously were better administrators.

Also I feel this classic keeps reminding us of "birth based caste system" again and again. Even good charectors like Krishna and Karuna are finally merged into the Kshatriya caste as if Vyasa watched their conception and birth. It is this thing that irritates me.

The next thing I hated was the charector of Draupadi. She was simply irritating for me since child-hood. How can Pandavas share her. And how can she even live sleeping with so 5 men ? Or is she a Tibetan ?

Also Draupadi is the one who humiliates Dhuryodhana and so she is the one directly responsible for the war which costed so many lives.

Bhishma and all Kauravas have great respect in me including Gandhari.

May be I am a descendant of Kauravas. In that case I wish to rather take revenge on the Pandavas.

[Raghu]

Next thing is I do not believe word by word of this epic. Karna was the son of a Charoteer. But he was hailed and praised by Dhuryodhana. I see in Dhuryodhana the heart and mind to accept a lesser previleged man. For me he looks more virtuous than Pandavas.

.

NO!!! Duryodhana was NEVER Virtuous at all, it was KARNA who is VIRTUOUS, Duryodhana was cunning, he wanted some warrior who can challenge Arjuna in Archery and some one who can defeat Arjuna, he found this Karna , hence he made him a King, but Karna was NEVER aware of Duryodhana's Cunningness!

[pizzalot]

NO!!! Duryodhana was NEVER Virtuous at all, it was KARNA who is VIRTUOUS, Duryodhana was cunning, he wanted some warrior who can challenge Arjuna in Archery and some one who can defeat Arjuna, he found this Karna , hence he made him a King, but Karna was NEVER aware of Duryodhana's Cunningness!

I would rather put it this way. Karna was rejected by Pandavas because of he was poor and lower in Status. He was disqualified after he won the contest. It was Dhuryodhana's brave and broad mindedness that appealed him. See, he need not have made him a King. He could have had him as a slave and yet made him work for him against Arjuna. If he was really after his talent he could have very well gone to woe Krishna himself, with whose support he was sure to win. But since the beginning he did not try much. It was at the behest of Shakuni he finally went to ask for HIS help. Dhuryodhana was humiliated by the Pandavas especially by the ugly Bhima. He was also humiliated by Draupadi. He just wanted them to be destroyed. He was not a smart politician in any way like Pandavas. He was a outspoken person who spoke out his heart. But the Pandavas were the real cunning people. There are a lot of incidence this is proven.

My theory is since because they won the war they had become heroes. If Dur was so cunning and wicked, he would have gone to hell. But see he goes to heaven. Inspite of winning the war the Pandavas were stopped at the heaven-gates and cursed to hell. It was just one of them ( I forgot to say it earlier, Yudhirshtra is my only favorite among the Pandavas ) who was granted the privelege of the heavens. In the heavens Dhur and Karna and other Kauravas were already there to greet him.

It is as though God gave the Pandava terrorists what they wanted on the earth but gave the Kauravas the eternal peace.

It is the off-springs of the Arjuna(grandsons) who finally ruled the earth. I am pretty sure they went to hell after they die.

In short anyone who supported or supports Pandavas went or will go to hell. On the other hand Kaurava supporters like me are good, plain and non-cunning people so we will must be going to heaven.

You must remember here that Dhuryodhana even let the sons of the incapable Pandav to rule for a while. He took their Kingdom (Indraprastha) rightfully back after they lost it to Dhur. What face did they have to ask for it afte 14 years ? If I lose something in gamble it is gone forever isnt it ? It was so unfair for others to intervene and say Dhur had to to retuen it back after 14 years. See, even here those cowards made politics. This simple guy Dhur did not know how to do politics.

Pandav, the incapable, had all his sons very wicked and cunning. "younger" they were more wicked they become. Dharma was OK. But Bhima onwards their wickedness and cunningness grows. Nag and Saha should be nothing but pile of wickedness and cunningness. Karna was not really the son of Pandav.

Mahabharatha is a great epic. No doubt about it. But one should read the hidden values in it. The Pandavas won the war and so whoever wrote it could not explicitly say the ruling Pandavas were correct. But the truth is hidden in many places. It is not a good idea to let someone ( who could be descendants of Pandavas ) to read it and explain it for you because they will have an hidden agenda.

Krishna is an exemption here. Though he supported Arjuna/Pandavas, he was in-fact punishing him for his/their greed. He wanted to be the "best" warrior and asked his Friend and Relative Krishna to teach him and only him the Chakravyuga a war strategy. Karna taught him and only him and see how knowingly he made Arjuna suffer by letting Abi die ? Thus even though Krishna helped Pandavas on earth he was actually helping Kauravas and Bhishma to go to heaven.

Dhur means wicked. How come all of the Kaurava names start with Dhur or Wicked ? Will any parent name their kids as "Wicked" ? This itself is a proof that the epic was writers were sponsored by the victorious Pandavs. They made themselves as heroes and their opponents as wicked. They must have simply asked them to name all the Kauravas as meaning "wicked". In reality they all must have had different names and titles. May be the people hailed them as even good.

But the writer is a genious. He has embedded the truth in several places so that even after ages if one reads with an intelligent mind, he can discover the truth.

In anycase the writer makes it easy for us to know who was right and who was wrong. Only the good goes to heaven. And here the Kauravas were the good ones.

Jai Dhuryodhana !

[Raghu]

I would rather put it this way. Karna was rejected by Pandavas because of he was poor and lower in Status. He was disqualified after he won the contest. It was Dhuryodhana's brave and broad mindedness that appealed him. See, he need not have made him a King. He could have had him as a slave and yet made him work for him against Arjuna.

NO, That is against Kshatriyas Dharma, Only a King can fight another King

[pizzalot]

Raghu, several rules were broken during the war See Bhima killed Dhur hitting him on the thighs against the rules.

A woman killed Bhishma against the rules.

Karna could have easily killed Arjuna even not being a king.

Also there are lot of evidences Dhur and Karna were friends. Karna was even playing chess with Dhur wife. Dhur never felt jealous about Karna. He is always described as an impulsive person. He could not have been a strategic and cunning person at all.

[Raghu]

Hi

Hold on,

I will give a detailed, explanation :-)

[srivatsan]

NO!!! Duryodhana was NEVER Virtuous at all, it was KARNA who is VIRTUOUS, Duryodhana was cunning, he wanted some warrior who can challenge Arjuna in Archery and some one who can defeat Arjuna, he found this Karna , hence he made him a King, but Karna was NEVER aware of Duryodhana's Cunningness!


Jai Dhuryodhana !

Pizza, dont make a fuss here. This is one of the serious threads going on in this forum.....Talk with some sense and dont throw whatever you feel like....

[srivatsan]

Hi

Hold on,

I will give a detailed, explanation :-)

Raghu Sir or others, please dont waste your time in explaining or responding to these kind of childish pranks...I think we are seriously discussing here...better not consider non-sense here!

[Sudhaama]

Hi

Hold on,

I will give a detailed, explanation :-)

Raghu Sir or others, please dont waste your time in explaining or responding to these kind of childish pranks...I think we are seriously discussing here...better not consider non-sense here!

No No.. dear Mr Srivatsan,

Please do not hurt any Hubber... by hitting at him/ her personally. In your opinion, may be what he says...is a NONSENSE...but...

...we the other Hubbers at equal status have no Moral right to comment or criticis so.... out of the way...

... deviating or CONTRARY to the Spirit of a Public Forum ... especially of Global purview ...

... OPEN TO ANYONE of the World... either Knowledged or Radically IGNORANT.

Our friend is just putting forth his Thoughts, Knowledge and Contentions on Mahabharatha...

..in an UNUSUAL DIRECTION... as much as he is able to perceive in his own VARIED OUTLOOK.

Even though it is our Great Indian Heritage Treasure... of IMMENSE HUMAN- VALUES ...

...Exemplary for Global Mankind... ETERNALLY. .. We believe quite opposite to His views.

So I am VERY HAPPY that one friend we got anew... who has kindled our thoughts...

... as a Spur for Knowledge on this Great SIMPLIFIED Gospel in the practical Life approach while dealing with various types of personages.

Even the Gods and Prophets like Jesus, Krishna, Siva, Sankara, Ramanuja and the likes too... were badly criticised and opposed face to face.

If they wanted they could have resorted to any measure directly or indirectly to FINISH the existence of such opponents.

But they had not taken such an ELEMENTARY APPROACH...

Whereas they the Exemplary LEADERS OF HUMANITY... have availed such oppositions...

... as the best opportunity to improve on their noble sides... by countering in FINER DETAIL...

... perceptible even to a Totally Ignorant Commonman.

So let us follow their Footsteps... by trying to answer the Questions raised here... if you can...

...Irrespective of the person behind the Question..Otherwise please keep silent.

At the same time I hope our new Friends on the opposite side too will NOT FORGET...

...to reciprocate our gentlemanly approach conforming to the norms of Civic manners in the public...

...and hence will not take up an Intentional differing approach... but only an OPEN MINDED outlook ...

...nor use any Terminolgies OFFENSIVE OR WOUNDING to the Opponents.

We welcome any healthy criticisms and oppositions subject to the bounds of such Intellectual Human norms.

I am closely watching how you on the other side are handling this Challenge.

Finally I will step in... to impress him... making to decide himself as to what is correct and what is Non-sense....

...On this Mahabhaaratha, the Immortal DRAMATIC GOSPEL...for the Global Mankind.!!!

[johntony]

the extract of the epic mahabharat in my opinion is that " The Truth [Dharma] never ever be defeated" it does not matter whether adharm is more powerful in comparison to dharma.


some of my frinends was always criticised to lord krishnas diplomacy with karna & others in the mahabharat at my student life when there any discussion
about mahabharat occured.


karna was more powerful than arjun
bhism pitamaha was also very experinced and powerful, overall kouravas were more powerful than pandvas , than why pandvas win that battle?


and the answer is only the lord krishna [ i.e. gyan, truth, dharma,]
what is the main roal of the lord krisna in this battle ?


he was only a driver(saarthi) of arjun`s wheicle (Rath), and he motivated arjun
to be indulge only in the karma without expecting its result.
he dont touched any arms (shastras) in the whole battle.


though its true that lord krisna plays diplomacy in the battle but it was to establish dharma,truth, to save the world. it is also true that lord krishna has tried to his extreme that the battle of mahabharta does not takes placed, but the god also failed in front of hungerness of property, greediness, selfishness, lustness & diplomacy of kouravas.
so to neutralize poisions of kouravas (adharma) the god krisna used another poison of diplomacy. there are nothing seems odd about it.


if we got virul fever we are not taking another poision in the form of medicine to kill appropriate viruses?
if one got small wound in his feet and by neglecting proper cure to it,if that feet gets more infectected and begin to rotten then to save his life it is a wise choise that he should relive all affection to his feet, and live his reminded life with one feet.


i learn this through the epic mahabharat.

[srivatsan]

Sudhaama Sir, Sorry if I had over-gone...

I do not know why many persons rate Arjuna inferior to Karna. There have been many many instances where Arjuna's valour been explained Mahabharatham.

Arjuna, by his capacity did penance and Got Pashupathasthra from Lord Shiva. For this, he even fight with Lord Shiva and only after impressed by Arjuna's valour Lord Shiva gives him the asthra...

Secondly, in the time of vana vasam, when Dhuryodhana was arrested by some Gandharwas, in the forest, Karna was severly hurt in the fight with Gandharvas and escaped from the battle field. It is Arjuna and Bhima who fougt with those Gandharvas and saved Dhuryodhana.

Similarly when Padavas were in Agnynatha Vasam in Upaplavya desham, Kaurava forces, including Bhishma and Drona invaded Upalavya. Karna too was in that force. Every one was single handedly defeated by Arjuna, that too with a novice charioteer...

So I dont think, Arjuna is inferior to anyone. Karna may be a great warrior with equal might to Arjuna. But he was not all that a "gem" in Character...proofs to follow!

[Sudhaama]

Sudhaama Sir, Sorry if I had over-gone...

I do not know why many persons rate Arjuna inferior to Karna. There have been many many instances where Arjuna's valour been explained Mahabharatham.

Arjuna, by his capacity did penance and Got Pashupathasthra from Lord Shiva. For this, he even fight with Lord Shiva and only after impressed by Arjuna's valour Lord Shiva gives him the asthra...

Secondly, in the time of vana vasam, when Dhuryodhana was arrested by some Gandharwas, in the forest, Karna was severly hurt in the fight with Gandharvas and escaped from the battle field. It is Arjuna and Bhima who fougt with those Gandharvas and saved Dhuryodhana.

Similarly when Padavas were in Agnynatha Vasam in Upaplavya desham, Kaurava forces, including Bhishma and Drona invaded Upalavya. Karna too was in that force. Every one was single handedly defeated by Arjuna, that too with a novice charioteer...

So I dont think, Arjuna is inferior to anyone. Karna may be a great warrior with equal might to Arjuna. But he was not all that a "gem" in Character...proofs to follow!

Dear Mr Srivatsan,

I did not mean that you have transgressed your bounds.

But I wanted to caution you ...NOT TO CONSIDER CHEAP or Get Emotional ...

...NOR DISCOURAGE the opponent on the Contrary stand to your Belief

.... There lies the Rudimentary Norm for any OPEN-FORUM like ours.. where even a Schoolboy may raise his doubts and Questions here....

.... while we don't know the person behind the Voice.. So my Suggestion is.... as I already stated...

... Take it as another Best Opportunity to analytically JUSTIFY YOUR STAND... the Truth.

In fact I wholeheartedly thank our new Friend for coming forward to participatehere along with us.

[selvakumar]

NO, That is against Chathiriya Dharma, Only a King can fight another King

mm.... I think the soceity was much more divided in those days. Mahabaratha, being a great epic portrays these things clearly. The caste system which is one of the things followed strictly in those days is a nice example for this.

RaghuJi, I think if we should respect only talents then Kirubachariyaar should not have prevented Karna just because of the fact that he is not a king

In that case, DHURYODANA was bold enough to break this old nastiytradition. :)

[Raghu]

I do not know why many persons rate Arjuna inferior to Karna. There have been many many instances where Arjuna's valour been explained Mahabharatham.


Dear Srivatsan, :-)

Pls dont address as me sir, I am not worthy of it nor I am old enough for that :-), I am lot younger than you assume :-)

Right on your above point, My knowledge isbased on Mahabharatha serial by Ramanand Saagar, and the Mahabharth book.

Krishna has many times, Explained to Karna was better Warrior than Partha (Arjuna), in many occasion, before Karna led the war as Commander in charge in Gurushetra, Arjuna will be over joyed, arrgonace and ego will blind his Eye, Krsishna would say 'Partha, dont underestimate Karna's ability, he is a far better warrior than you, you can only win him over deciet and wickerdness!

Then we all know all the six deceits Karna has been under

1) Kavasa Kundal - Cuuningly deprived from him
2) Curse from Parashuram
3) Nakasthra issue
4) Curse from bhramin saying that his chariot will be stuck in earth
5) His chariot will walk away -- (he was the Uncle of Pandavas, Can some one remind me his name)
6) ????




Arjuna, by his capacity did penance and Got Pashupathasthra from Lord Shiva. For this, he even fight with Lord Shiva and only after impressed by Arjuna's valour Lord Shiva gives him the asthra...


Yes this is true, Aum NamaShivaya



Secondly, in the time of vana vasam, when Dhuryodhana was arrested by some Gandharwas, in the forest, Karna was severly hurt in the fight with Gandharvas and escaped from the battle field. It is Arjuna and Bhima who fougt with those Gandharvas and saved Dhuryodhana.


This is Common in any war fare, you are right Arjuna single handedly defeated the Kauravas, including Karna, but Karna single handedly defeated Pandavas for the last 5 days he Commanded the Kauravas!



So I dont think, Arjuna is inferior to anyone. Karna may be a great warrior with equal might to Arjuna. But he was not all that a "gem" in Character...proofs to follow!

No Ajuna was inferior to many warriors like Bhishma, Jeyadrathan, Dronacharaya, Angaraj Karna, even to Aswathama to certain extent!

[Nakeeran]

Raghu Sir

May I get explanation for :

1. Why did Drona ask for Ekalaivan's thumb finger -
So that Arjuna will not have any equal warrior
or THE DIRTY CASTE WAR HERE ALSO :twisted:

2. Drona I believe told Karna that he can teach only Kshatriyas -
If yes, why did he teach his son who was a Brahmin guy ?

[Raghu]

RaghuJi, I think if we should respect only talents then Kirubachariyaar should not have prevented Karna just because of the fact that he is not a king

In that case, DHURYODANA was bold enough to break this old nastiytradition. :)

Indeed!!! Only TALENTS should be appreciated , teh casts, class and all that Crap should not come in at all.. But yes though I loudly applaud Dhurodhana for his bold move, there were self fish reasons behind it, he wanted some one to defeat Arjuna, he knew Only Karna can do it, so he made use of the circumstances wisely!

small request, dont call me Ji, Machi sounds better, Sariya Machi
:-) :lol:

[Nakeeran]

RaghuJi, I think if we should respect only talents then Kirubachariyaar should not have prevented Karna just because of the fact that he is not a king

In that case, DHURYODANA was bold enough to break this old nastiytradition. :)

Indeed!!! Only TALENTS should be appreciated , teh casts, class and all that Crap should not come in at all.. But yes though I loudly applaud Dhurodhana for his bold move, there were self fish reasons behind it, he wanted some one to defeat Arjuna, he knew Only Karna can do it, so he made use of the circumstances wisely!

small request, dont call me Ji, Machi sounds better, Sariya Machi
:-) :lol:

Raghu sir

I think Duryodhana accepted Karna as his friend even before Karna could prove his skills ( remember that display day )
I dont see any vested interest here by Duryodhana

Pl enlighten me here

[Raghu]

Raghu Sir

May I get explanation for :

1. Why did Drona ask for Ekalaivan's thumb finger -
So that Arjuna will not have any equal warrior
or THE DIRTY CASTE WAR HERE ALSO :twisted:


Hello, this was one of Krishna leela, Drona knew Ekalaiva was better archer than Arjuna and he feared that He may excell him (dronarcharya) in Archery and may pose a threat to the Pandavas, as he felt that he may Join the Kauravas against the Pandavas.



2. Drona I believe told Karna that he can teach only Kshatriyas -
If yes, why did he teach his son who was a Brahmin guy ?

I dont think Dronacharya taught Aswathama any Archery skills,

Could Sudhamma Sir pls, enlighten us on this.

[Nakeeran]

Raghu Sir

May I get explanation for :

1. Why did Drona ask for Ekalaivan's thumb finger -
So that Arjuna will not have any equal warrior
or THE DIRTY CASTE WAR HERE ALSO :twisted:


Hello, this was one of Krishna leela, Drona knew Ekalaiva was better archer than Arjuna and he feared that He may excell him (dronarcharya) in Archery and may pose a threat to the Pandavas, as he felt that he may Join the Kauravas against the Pandavas.



2. Drona I believe told Karna that he can teach only Kshatriyas -
If yes, why did he teach his son who was a Brahmin guy ?

I dont think Dronacharya taught Aswathama any Archery skills,

Could Sudhamma Sir pls, enlighten us on this.

Raghu Sir

I think your version may be wrong.
There is no Krishna leela here on Ekalaivan episode. Besides, Drona had no reason to fear that EK may join Kauravas as during that phase , THE ENTIRE PANDAVAS & GAURAVAS WERE VERY YOUNG & NOONE FORSAW ANY EVENTUAL WAR
In other words, Drona didnt have any disparity between Pandavas & Kauravas during this phase .
Pl clarify me


As per you Drona didnt teach Aswathama.
Then how did he learn the art of archery ? Infact he had divine weapons I believe

[Raghu]

RaghuJi, I think if we should respect only talents then Kirubachariyaar should not have prevented Karna just because of the fact that he is not a king

In that case, DHURYODANA was bold enough to break this old nastiytradition. :)

Indeed!!! Only TALENTS should be appreciated , teh casts, class and all that Crap should not come in at all.. But yes though I loudly applaud Dhurodhana for his bold move, there were self fish reasons behind it, he wanted some one to defeat Arjuna, he knew Only Karna can do it, so he made use of the circumstances wisely!

small request, dont call me Ji, Machi sounds better, Sariya Machi
:-) :lol:

Raghu sir

I think Duryodhana accepted Karna as his friend even before Karna could prove his skills ( remember that display day )
I dont see any vested interest here by Duryodhana

Pl enlighten me here

No, Duryodhana only saw and met Karna during the archery competition, it was Shakuni who told Duryodhana to make Karna his friend, it was the wicked Shakuni indeed!

[selvakumar]

This is Common in any war fare, you are right Arjuna single handedly defeated the Kauravas, including Karna, but Karna single handedly defeated Pandavas for the last 5 days he Commanded the Kauravas!
Raghu machi ! That is not 5 days.. It is only 2 days in which he commanded his side !
Pithaamagar - 10 Days
Dhronaacharyar - 5 Days
Karna - 2 Days
Salliyan - 1 Day
Total - 18 Days ! Please correct me if I am wrong.

I agree with your views regarding Karna.. Ofcourse Karna is a better warrior than Arjun.

[selvakumar]

No, Duryodhana only saw and met Karna during the archery competition, it was Shakuni who told Duryodhana to make Karna his friend, it was the wicked Shakuni indeed!

Could be ! But a person like Duryodhana (the prince) need not accept a person (who is son of a chariot driver) as his friend.

He could have made him as one of his subordinates or some other person by giving him the same kingdom.

But he accepted him as his friend rather than blindly following the advices / misguidance from elders like Kirubaacharya or others that being a king he should not do that. Hope I am clear. I think Duryodhana excelled here in breaking the tradition here :)

[Nakeeran]

This is Common in any war fare, you are right Arjuna single handedly defeated the Kauravas, including Karna, but Karna single handedly defeated Pandavas for the last 5 days he Commanded the Kauravas!
Raghu machi ! That is not 5 days.. It is only 2 days in which he commanded his side !
Pithaamagar - 10 Days
Dhronaacharyar - 5 Days
Karna - 2 Days
Salliyan - 1 Day
Total - 18 Days ! Please correct me if I am wrong.

I agree with your views regarding Karna.. Ofcourse Karna is a better warrior than Arjun.

Selva Anne

PERFECT . :D

I think Karna was the commander for just 2 days after Drona fell
Your listing of days is ABSOLUTELY PERFECT :thumbsup:

[Nakeeran]

No, Duryodhana only saw and met Karna during the archery competition, it was Shakuni who told Duryodhana to make Karna his friend, it was the wicked Shakuni indeed!

Could be ! But a person like Duryodhana (the prince) need not accept a person (who is son of a chariot driver) as his friend.

He could have made him as one of his subordinates or some other person by giving him the same kingdom.But he accepted him as his friend rather than blindly following the advices / misguidance from elders like Kirubaacharya or others that being a king he should not do that. Hope I am clear. I think Duryodhana excelled here in breaking the tradition here :)

Selva Anne :D

Golden words ! what you have mentioned here.

True. Duryodhana could have easily made him his Dhalapathi instead of a King .

[Nakeeran]

No, Duryodhana only saw and met Karna during the archery competition, it was Shakuni who told Duryodhana to make Karna his friend, it was the wicked Shakuni indeed!

Could be ! But a person like Duryodhana (the prince) need not accept a person (who is son of a chariot driver) as his friend.

He could have made him as one of his subordinates or some other person by giving him the same kingdom.But he accepted him as his friend rather than blindly following the advices / misguidance from elders like Kirubaacharya or others that being a king he should not do that. Hope I am clear. I think Duryodhana excelled here in breaking the tradition here :)

Selva Anne :D

Golden words ! what you have mentioned here.

True. Duryodhana could have easily made him his Dhalapathi instead of a King .

[selvakumar]

Selva Anne
PERFECT . :D
I think Karna was the commander for just 2 days after Drona fell
Your listing of days is ABSOLUTELY PERFECT :thumbsup:
Nakeera Thanks ! :)
Yup.. Karna - Dhuryodana bond is one of the interesting things in this great epic.

Lord Krishna's attempts to pull karna to the Pandavaa's side failed miserably because of this :)

[johntony]

i am glad, very very glad.