Films of Mani Ratnam

[ajaybaskar]

Lajjo shooting will start by september 8-)

Aamir-Maniratnam-ARRahman :clap:

one more hindi movie from Mani will be awesome - maybe a soft romantic movie with Hrithik in the lead :wink:

hrithik good in romance?

HRITHIK NOT BETTER THAN AMIR KHAN IN ROMANCE.

Hrithik is very talented. Thing is that he has not got the right oppurtunity to prove himself. Mani sir will make him act. After all, he made a 3 yr old to strike gold in Anjali..

[thimuru]

Lajjo shooting will start by september 8-)

Aamir-Maniratnam-ARRahman :clap:

one more hindi movie from Mani will be awesome - maybe a soft romantic movie with Hrithik in the lead :wink:

hrithik good in romance?

Mani can make anyone act.......so its just the question of finding unusually interesting combos...... :D .......Hrithik has great mass 8-)

he made prasanth act in thiruda thiruda? :roll:

[MADDY]

Lajjo shooting will start by september 8-)

Aamir-Maniratnam-ARRahman :clap:

one more hindi movie from Mani will be awesome - maybe a soft romantic movie with Hrithik in the lead :wink:

hrithik good in romance?

Mani can make anyone act.......so its just the question of finding unusually interesting combos...... :D .......Hrithik has great mass 8-)

he made prasanth act in thiruda thiruda? :roll:

that was a action movie and no need for "great" acting skills....... :roll: ........watever was reqd for that "kathir" role, he had done it..... :D

[P_R]

he made prasanth act in thiruda thiruda? Rolling Eyes
Of course. It is one of the very few movies where Prasanth was watchable. Prasanth intro scene, where Malaysia confronts him when he is trying to steal the jeep, is done pretty well.

You feel very sad for Anand. The guy had Prasanth for lunch in that film. But his career wasn't even half as good as Prasanth's.

And Heera. Her performance in that film is her best.That movie should have done much much better than it did.


.watever was reqd for that "kathir" role, he had done it... If I am right Kathir was played by Anand and Prasanth's role was Azhagu.

[MADDY]

.watever was reqd for that "kathir" role, he had done it... If I am right Kathir was played by Anand and Prasanth's role was Azhagu.

i had that confusion, thought of checking wikipedia or imdb but was lazy to do that..........but now i know, we have a IMDB with us here :wink:

[P_R]

:-)

ThirudA thirudA is one of my favourites. RGV was the co-writer of the script. Anand's intro is equally good. The dissolve from the India map to the burgled house... and Anand on the roof (PC Sreeram getting wild orange here). He falls through the roof on a flustered girl and asks: " nooru roobaikku sillarai irukkumA " :lol:

If I remember right it was Rahman's fourth film, the BGM was great (I am a sucker for violins !), the visuals, SPB and his tactics ("sarkAr sothukku aasaippada koodAdhu" :D) and one of the climax stunts ever.

It should have done much better. Perhaps with more star value it would have been more saleable, though nearly all the performances were good.

[thimuru]

pr...the dialogues should have been made clear!

yedho kenathukulla ukaandhu pesura maadhiri kusu kusunu pesikitaina

[P_R]

Watching Thalapathy.

Arvind Swamy's intro (Jaishankar and Sriidhya's too).

townsfolk follow a water-diviner and the machine digs for water. Celebrations abound as water rains on all the crowds.
Till now we have no idea who these three are.
Then a woman comes and speaks the first (only lines) of the scene to the Srividhya. "thappu paNNittiyE mA, oru puLLaiyOda niruthittiyE.....innoRu puLLai pethurindhA, innum paththu ooru nalla irundhirukkum"

Srividhya pauses (and we hear the train puff theme music IR :thumbsup:), so we gather who she is. Jaishankar places a comforting hand on her (we guess who he is and we know that "he knows", so understand what kind of person he is).
MR's grasp of visual storytelling, is just amazing :notworthy:

[raaja_rasigan]

Watching Thalapathy.

Arvind Swamy's intro (Jaishankar and Sriidhya's too).

townsfolk follow a water-diviner and the machine digs for water. Celebrations abound as water rains on all the crowds.
Till now we have no idea who these three are.
Then a woman comes and speaks the first (only lines) of the scene to the Srividhya. "thappu paNNittiyE mA, oru puLLaiyOda niruthittiyE.....innoRu puLLai pethurindhA, innum paththu ooru nalla irundhirukkum"

Srividhya pauses (and we hear the train puff theme music IR :thumbsup:), so we gather who she is. Jaishankar places a comforting hand on her (we guess who he is and we know that "he knows", so understand what kind of person he is).
MR's grasp of visual storytelling, is just amazing :notworthy:

andha pulla ippo enga irukkano...

a superb movie by:

Rajinikanth
Maniratnam
Ilayaraaja

[ramsri]

Watching Thalapathy.

Arvind Swamy's intro (Jaishankar and Sriidhya's too).

townsfolk follow a water-diviner and the machine digs for water. Celebrations abound as water rains on all the crowds.
Till now we have no idea who these three are.
Then a woman comes and speaks the first (only lines) of the scene to the Srividhya. "thappu paNNittiyE mA, oru puLLaiyOda niruthittiyE.....innoRu puLLai pethurindhA, innum paththu ooru nalla irundhirukkum"

Srividhya pauses (and we hear the train puff theme music IR :thumbsup:), so we gather who she is. Jaishankar places a comforting hand on her (we guess who he is and we know that "he knows", so understand what kind of person he is).
MR's grasp of visual storytelling, is just amazing :notworthy:

PR :clap:
visiting this place after a while, its nice to see the old-timers haven't lost the touch!

[MADDY]

great point PR :clap: .......

i remember one scene in Uyire/Dil se where the terrorist group executes their Republicday/Independence day plan in their minds........each person will visualise their part in the assasination plan :(

also, everytime, SRK approaches Manisha physically, her mouth gets stuck open and she gets a attack sort of thing......later in the movie, Mani links it to the child-rape scene of Manisha, which is y she doesent like men nearing her.......ARR uses the same BGM for both the scenes - which is the link - truly amazing 8-)

[ramsri]

pr...the dialogues should have been made clear!
yedho kenathukulla ukaandhu pesura maadhiri kusu kusunu pesikitaina

thats true - in fact, hushed dialogues seem to be a sort of mani ratnam trademark. has someone asked him about this??

Remember the ponnu pakkara sequence in Roja - where madhu's sis and arvind swamy have a chat over coffee with the village elders looking on in the background. First time I saw the movie I had no clue what the hell was going on... gets irritating at times. I understand the content of the scene meant that the dialogues had to be hush-hush. But - when weighed against the significance of what was being said, surely the lines could've been more audible.

I remember a mani ratnam feature by anita nair which started with a conversation she had with her cabbie on the way to the big man's house. On being told that she was going to talk to MR, the guy said something like, "Would you please ask him why is it that all his heroines shriek and the heroes mumble when they deliver their dialogue?" :D

[MADDY]

pr...the dialogues should have been made clear!
yedho kenathukulla ukaandhu pesura maadhiri kusu kusunu pesikitaina

thats true - in fact, hushed dialogues seem to be a sort of mani ratnam trademark. has someone asked him about this??

Remember the ponnu pakkara sequence in Roja - where madhu's sis and arvind swamy have a chat over coffee with the village elders looking on in the background. First time I saw the movie I had no clue what the hell was going on... gets irritating at times. I understand the content of the scene meant that the dialogues had to be hush-hush. But - when weighed against the significance of what was being said, surely the lines could've been more audible.

I remember a mani ratnam feature by anita nair which started with a conversation she had with her cabbie on the way to the big man's house. On being told that she was going to talk to MR, the guy said something like, "Would you please ask him why is it that all his heroines shriek and the heroes mumble when they deliver their dialogue?" :D

its a open secret that Maniratnam is a Mahendran-inspired product.......Mahendran, if i'm not wrong, is the first person who dared to de-dramatize the tamil cinema and its viewers.......soft, silent dialogues were a important step towards it :D .....Maniratnam took it to the next level with inaudible dialogues, a bit artificial :oops:

but the legend, proves he is a ever-evolving person and his critics need to update themselves :D .......Guru is the perfect example on how Mani can break his monotonity......dialogues were loud, clear, lengthy just like any maarwadi businessman speaks :D ......

[P_R]

Ramsri Welcome back :victory: :2thumbsup: :clap: :cool2:
enga pOyitteenga ivvaLavu naaL ?
Maniratnam took it to the next level with inaudible dialogues, a bit artificial Et tu ? MR hardly had any inaudible dialogues pre-Roja. And artificial is a word I'd hesitate to use with that phase of his career.

The curt-dialogues (Thalapathi and beyond) that he is lampooned is something that is just blown out of proportion. He has always had a sensible mix without being vaLa-vaLa. Most importantly he never ever has a piece of dialogue for something you can see on screen. If someone comes drenched in the rain in an MR film you won't have someone asking him: "En ippidi mazhaila nanajittu vareenga ?". That would be radio play writing. Largely the dialogues would fit into the expected conversation of the characters, and move the story forward.

As for the hush-hush of TT....I still like it. Thiefspeak, I say :-)

[Cinefan]

Welcome back Ramsri :D

PR has said enough about MR&his dialogues.They are crisp&his characters never talk more than what is needed.I like that style.

If at all I have a problem with a Mani film,it's with the climax of Agni.........I really had to strain my eyes to see what was happening(Prabhu&Karthik shifting Vijayakumar from 1 room to another inside the hospital).

[P_R]

If at all I have a problem with a Mani film,it's with the climax of Agni.........I really had to strain my eyes to see what was happening(Prabhu&Karthik shifting Vijayakumar from 1 room to another inside the hospital).IMO It was one of the most interesting climaxes in TF History. One of those instances where MR just snatched the baton and sprinted, leaving the competition and even the audience gasping for breath. Stunning visual style.

First of all Agni Natchatram camerawork is phenomenal. Impressive even by today's standards. When I drive home in rains late night this week I can't help thinking of a lone rickshsaw in a wide AdyAr(?) road. The sodium vapor lit yellowness, the bright-yet shady subways, the inconsistently lit electric trains, the too-bright-to-be-sharp sun in the hot sunny outdoors are all excellent.

The climax is just MR-PC Sreeram cutting loose. The basic idea of the climax is from Godfather, where Michael shifts Don Corleone's hospital bed. MR crafts the build-up scenes to it extremely well. With the families getting closer ("enga veettu ponnu dhaan" - Sumitra about Tara - such a normal line that is so touching)

The eye-straining lighting makes an otherwise people filled climax so eminently watchable. The audience has to consciously attempt to keep pace with what's going on. For instance the sequence where a child distracts the gunman, is pretty cliched. But the lighting makes the lapse of concentration so believable that it takes the thrill to a new level.

My favourite is that short sequence where Prabhu runs up to get a bottle of saline. You see him in shots of quick steps, somersaults across a table to get the saline (second bottle mind you, you don't expect to get the correct bottle in the very first bottle you pick, even if you are a hero !). And when he is on his way back downstairs he gets shot and he drops the bottle. This is from the staircase which branches out both sides in a V.

The bottle is dropped and we see it in slow motion from above (Prabhu's PoV) as it falls and he shouts "Ashok". Karthik eneters the frame from below to take it. For a moment MR messes with your sense of direction. You don't know what is above-below-left-right. And he prolongs that wonderful moment in slow motion. Visual stylist non-pareil :notworthy:

[ramsri]

Welcome back Ramsri :D


nandri, nandri :) its good to be back
thanx for the rousing welcome - cinefan, PR...

getting right down to the res - PR's note on the Agni Natchatram climax was truly inspiring (makes me want to watch the flick all over again!) - there's a lot more to be said about that movie but I'll park that aside for a while till I can come up with a suitably insighful post... :)

turning attention instead, to the topic of dialogues in MR movies (which we've been talking abt anyway...) there's a scene from Kannathil Muthamittal which comes immediately to mind:

This is the one where Madhavan is giving his speech at a writers congregation in Sri Lanka while his daughter (Keerthana) is sitting on a park bench across the road talking to a bearded stranger (the guy of course, is one of the rebels - a human bomb, but we don't know that right now...)

Keerthana: yen tamizh oru madhri pesareenga??
Man (sardonically) : idhuvum tamizhdaan...
:notworthy:

that one line, to me, drove home the point with the kind of force that reams of dialogue (about the liberation movement, tamil eelam etc.) could never have hoped to match. and the best part, is that its the kind of thing that works on two levels - you could take those words at face value, or you could choose to read between the lines and discover a hidden meaning there which would otherwise have gone unnoticed.

so the proof of the dialogue is really in the interpretation...
subtlety - thy name is mani ratnam! :thumbsup:

[littlemaster1982]

There's a scene from Kannathil Muthamittal which comes immediately to mind:

This is the one where Madhavan is giving his speech at a writers congregation in Sri Lanka while his daughter (Keerthana) is sitting on a park bench across the road talking to a bearded stranger (the guy of course, is one of the rebels - a human bomb, but we don't know that right now...)

Keerthana: yen tamizh oru madhri pesareenga??
Man (sardonically) : idhuvum tamizhdaan...
:notworthy:

that one line, to me, drove home the point with the kind of force that reams of dialogue (about the liberation movement, tamil eelam etc.) could never have hoped to match. and the best part, is that its the kind of thing that works on two levels - you could take those words at face value, or you could choose to read between the lines and discover a hidden meaning there which would otherwise have gone unnoticed.


I've never thought this way :oops: Ramsri :notworthy:

[Roshan]

while till I can come up with a suitably insighful post... :)

turning attention instead, to the topic of dialogues in MR movies (which we've been talking abt anyway...) there's a scene from Kannathil Muthamittal which comes immediately to mind:

This is the one where Madhavan is giving his speech at a writers congregation in Sri Lanka while his daughter (Keerthana) is sitting on a park bench across the road talking to a bearded stranger (the guy of course, is one of the rebels - a human bomb, but we don't know that right now...)

Keerthana: yen tamizh oru madhri pesareenga??
Man (sardonically) : idhuvum tamizhdaan...
:notworthy:

that one line, to me, drove home the point with the kind of force that reams of dialogue (about the liberation movement, tamil eelam etc.) could never have hoped to match. and the best part, is that its the kind of thing that works on two levels - you could take those words at face value, or you could choose to read between the lines and discover a hidden meaning there which would otherwise have gone unnoticed.
so the proof of the dialogue is really in the interpretation...
subtlety - thy name is mani ratnam! :thumbsup:

Welcome back Ramsri :) :D

I couldnt get you exactly? :roll: What is the hidden meaning here?

[ramsri]

Welcome back Ramsri :) :D

I couldnt get you exactly? :roll: What is the hidden meaning here?

Roshan -
Not sure how to explain this elaborately :) but let me try...

The guy in the park is a human bomb (though we don't know it at the beginning of the scene). Now because this is mani ratnam territory, we know this character is being introduced to us for a reason - which will presumably be brought out as the scene progresses. The trick for the director here is to use the conversation between him and the girl to gradually reveal to the audience what kind of man he is and what he's doing on that park bench at that juncture of the story (remember this is a man who's about to die in a few minutes - giving up his life for the Cause). And in a style so typical of him, MR chooses not to give the young man an impassioned speech about why he is what he is, what his motivations are and all that jazz (which would scarcely have been believable given that there's a 10-yr old girl at the other end of the conversation). Instead the dialogue between the two is woven in a way that offsets the girl's childish innocence with the derisive remarks of the terrorist. So when he says "Idhuvum tamizhdhan", you're sure it's not just his accent he's talking about, but something far more significant - it's about the spirit of being a Tamil... he's almost saying "Nangalum tamizhargaldhan" - or maybe even "Nangadhan tamizhargal" - it's a philosophy that has formed much of the basis for various Lankan militant groups claiming a Tamil Eelam of their own. And he says it in a way that instantly explains his background, his principles and all that he stands for. If you're really listening to the character speak, you realize right away that something profound has just been said. And the effect it creates is of the kind that no protracted dialogue or inspired acting could've hoped to create. It's just brilliant writing :notworthy:

The scene, for me, is a masterclass in cinematic subtlety... not just because it manages to convey a message like that, but because the message is only there for those who want to read it. You could a) read a totally different meaning to what he said, or b) completely miss the import of what was said, or c) not bother to analyze what was actually said - and in all three cases, you would end up enjoying the scene just as much... :2thumbsup: [/i]

[thilak4life]

Ramsri's interpretation of that scene was quite obvious I thought, but his writeup is elucidative. :thumbsup:

[ramsri]

Another scene from Dalapathi deserves a mention - the one where Surya, Kalyani and her husband are at the temple... (Kalyani and Surya are of course, mutually unaware of each others' presence and of the blood relation that exists between them). A train horn sounds in the distance - immediately, as if by instinct, all of them turn toward the direction of the sound as the camera pans to show us how they react. The expressions on Surya's and Kalyani's faces are almost identical (we know why) and consistent with the mother-and-long-lost-son-pining-for-each-other sentiment reinforced at various points in the film.
Jaishankar's expression on the other hand, is a study in inscrutability - again, we know why - the train does not mean as much to him as it does to the other two. And yet, he presents the benevolent facade of one (in fact, the only one) who is sensitive to the turmoil they are going through, even though he himself is distanced from it... :thumbsup: , I say!

Like that other brilliant scene from Nayagan which we've discussed before (maybe elsewhere), this one too has no dialogue - which only adds to its appeal. Someone made the point earlier about how MR would never have a line of dialogue for something he could show you on screen... well, this scene is a standing example... :clap:

[ramsri]

BTW - what was the name of Jaishankar's character in Dalapathi? Come to think of it - did he even have a name?? :confused2:

[thilak4life]

BTW - what was the name of Jaishankar's character in Dalapathi? Come to think of it - did he even have a name?? :confused2:

No

[P_R]

Nice one ramsri. Well captured. Makes me want to revisit.


earlier about how MR would never have a line of dialogue for something he could show you on screen... well, this scene is a standing example... :exactly: One of the very few writers who knows the difference between writing for films and writing for radio-plays. I can think of a ten different ways in which that scene could have been ruined.

btw I don't think Jaishankar had a name in that film.

[thilak4life]

This ostensibly belongs to some other thread, but no, it belongs here. Anyway I posted this in orkut.


Nayagan's crying scene became way too iconic, rarely a performance oriented role became that iconic, elevating Kamal to a thespian stature, and celebrated around the Country(all the more special for a tamil film) like never before, while an elementary casual viewer might underrate what I'm going to say next. It's the context of crying in that particular scene which would become a textbook for few, but for majority, operatic. Now to the film, Velu doesn't cry his heart out at every turn, he isn't broken when he faces death in different forms. Because, Velu is an animal, and a survivor, a true 'master of the game'. But only when he has an opponent...

Case in point ->
1) When his dad dies, he avenges the inspector.
2) When Vaapa (who took care of him) dies. He kills the inspector
3) when his wife Neela dies. He kills the whole Reddy family!

All of 'em are his OWN mistakes. Velu vents his frustration out when there is a perpetrator involved, but what happens when there is no one to be blamed?

When his son dies, he expresses it out with groans and self-disappointment, but this is hardly noticed with care and better perspective! Instead, we get few idiots who overused this particular moment at the expense of being a 'mimicry artist'! As we can see, when others do it, it's funny (I personally find it amusing, not funny). But when Velu naicker does it in the film, it's not!

[thilak4life]

Few more, although this is more of a comparison, (updated from my original) Will post more in coming days..


Pudhupettai looses its grip right somewhere along the second half (final third was downright laughable.) Similarities are ample with AE, Inba's journey to become a politician is much like Kokki's journey, both being slum dwellers, Inba's marriage is broken in the end, he leaves his wife, Kokki leaves his kid and meaningful relationships with women are anything but defunct (one leaves him and the other dead - this of course, was interesting as such) Kokki kills his dad, Inba kills his brother, although for different reasons as it appears, both being difficult childhood, and bad upbringing. In both the cases, the characters are instinctive survivors who would do anything to achieve their goal, and their journey into politics ends in different ways, and their last assault is for different reasons, Kokki for revenge, and ultimate survival - ironically he ends up in a fairy tale, Inba's however is quite opposite, ambitious & opportunistic, although ending up from where he started (hence, making it cyclic, and more interesting.) What Mani does in 45 minutes (or less?) is stretched for a longer run time to nothing significant 'thematically', mainly to surface realism and offer a different narrative. Perhaps "authentic" is the word for Selva's portrayal, but the themes with which he handles is handled better by Mani, although less authentic in its portrayal. BTW, from what I see, the prostitute angle is a homage to Mani's Nayagan, and Sonia's character (and her brother) is more of a homage to De Palma's Scarface, where Al's friend marries his sister, infuriating Al to shoot him, here it's the other way around, Kokki marries his friend's sister, infuriating him to shoot Kokki, although Kokki survives. Selva has such characters to irreverence of Kokki, who use women for personal gratification.* Selva has such long sequences trying to make it comprehensive but he doesn't realize the power of obscurity. Comprehensive films are welcome, but it could really make better use of cinematic reality, that is not to spoonfeed, but use the liberty of visual narrative/terse writing! For example, a single line from Inba, indha pomblainga kitta vechukuvE kudatha, appo appo, ponnama, paarthoma, senjOma-nu thirumbiranum covers the whole point*. 50 milli sarAyathu kaaga, SarAya kadai-yE vanga kudathu!

The beauty of AE opening is its juxtaposition of three social classes in one particular context (before the focal point of the three narratives to follow,) we see a lower class (flawed) goon who never cares about 'mores' in a relationship, we see the bourgeoisie Surya asking Esha deol to come to his place, she says, kalyanathuku munnadiya, pacha paavam (the way she says it...nevermind), then we see a high-class yuppie in Siddarth who runs around Trisha, and says a very naive hippie line pittsburgh-la mottai poddalam (slightly artificial) for their future kid. He even threatens to commit suicide to impress, and prove his "love" to her, like any irresponsible kid! Irrespective of shortcomings, :notworthy:.

[equanimus]

That was a good one, Ramsri. The framing is brilliant here. The camera moves, pans and cuts fluidly as accorded by a virtuoso. (The scene can be watched over here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yNc5AW1vCJY).) Mani's screenwriting is of the topmost order. The other day, in a different thread, I used 'Maniesque' writing to mean the right opposite of 'expositional.' That's exactly what his writing is like.
In this aspect, I don't think there is a definitive predecessor to him in Tamil cinema. Mahendran or Balu Mahendra surely had subtly written scenes, scenes with less dialogue (or even, no dialogue) but the sparser dialogue still were significantly expositional. But, Mani took it to the next level. With Mani Ratnam, the scenes didn't speak to the audience at all. The audience was put in the scene. You hardly need words to grasp a situation if you're in it (in real life). In many cases, his dialogue is even simply tangential to the scene. Giving some wonderful moments for Tamil cinema.

While I think there are far better examples to elicit the greatness of Mani's writing than thaLapathi (not a huge fan of the film though I really do like it), I think thaLapathi posed a challenge to Mani's writing skills in an obtuse way. Before coming to that, let me quote Prabhu Ram as I'm going to pick my polemic from there. And, for once, in the appropriate thread. :)


Nice one ramsri. Well captured. Makes me want to revisit.


earlier about how MR would never have a line of dialogue for something he could show you on screen... well, this scene is a standing example... :exactly: One of the very few writers who knows the difference between writing for films and writing for radio-plays. I can think of a ten different ways in which that scene could have been ruined.

btw I don't think Jaishankar had a name in that film.
Funny you should say that, Prabhu Ram. The way I see it (after having revisited the film sometime back), I think there are many such scenes in thaLapathi which are all but destined to be ruined. And, Mani diligently tries to pull it out of the rut every time. Not that he doesn't manage to succeed, but the result isn't as sparkling as it ought to be.

Now, I don't mean to be hyper-critical of the film. It's a finely made film, the performances are superb (never mind the overly stiff and silly Arjun), the craft is outstanding (even by Mani's standards), the music is sublime. Not to forget the iconic scenes in the film which are stuff of the legend. But, the sheer content and the way it's rendered brings down the film. Many of the film's parts are too melodramatic and over-the-top that it best suits a no-holds-barred kitsch treatment. And, yet, Mani places these scenes in his world. And, the result is a weird concoction of the subtle and the over-the-top. Mani's dialogues, even if sparse, tends to work like a sledgehammer. ("unna mARi enakkoru aNNan irundhurundhA, nI poRandhappavE engamma unna vitteRinjiruppAnga." Really! Rajini stands out in this scene nevertheless.)

Honestly evaluating, I think Mani tried to evoke the mythical angle by making it like it "happens" in myths. Like in one of those scenes, Devaraj talks to the newborn daughter of Banu Priya in her house, "idhu sUryA, unakku enna vEnAlum kekkalAm. illa'nnu solla mAttAn!" But the result frankly is somewhat unrewarding.

[thilak4life]

Thalapathy's dialogues are often saved by Mani's direction (from the performance he extracts, and not to mention the superlative cinematography, music.)


"unna mARi enakkoru aNNan irundhurundhA, nI poRandhappavE engamma unna vitteRinjiruppAnga." Really! Rajini stands out in this scene nevertheless.

It's a spontaneous reaction indeed, nuanced and apt!

and,


Many of the film's parts are too melodramatic and over-the-top that it best suits a no-holds-barred kitsch treatment. And, yet, Mani places these scenes in his world. And, the result is a weird concoction of the subtle and the over-the-top.

But it offers an unique experience which I cherish and love! :)

[thilak4life]

And Thanks for the clip, Sir!

[P_R]

Ah equanimus, let me declare upfront that I am a sucker for well made melodrama...Well, the "well made" in the previous sentence was just my ego talking and can be ignored :-).

Let me mention a non-iconic scene, but one of those links between events that every story needs to have. When Devaraj comes to Surya's place:

When Devaraj comes to meet Surya asks him to move in with him I am defencelessly floored by the last lines that close the argument.
"ivvaLo pEr irukkAnga dEvA.."
"unakku ivvaLavu pEr irukkAnga....enakku nee oruthan dhaanE irukke"


When I am up on my feet I do think that the scene is a bit unreal, the lines pretty cliched and even DEvarAj's preceeding lines (maNushANA maathare blah blah) are plain naive. But all that is after the event. He just had me that moment. That is the precise reason why MR is so enjoyable. (Coming to think of it, none of the lines and force of the decision, are beyond the impulsive Devaraj)

I agree that MR has this schizophrenic mix of subtlety and -to use your word- sledgehammer. Some of his sledgehammers erase any other nice memories one would like to have about the film (eg. Bombay). ThaLapathy is nowhere there.


But, Mani took it to the next level. With Mani Ratnam, the scenes didn't speak to the audience at all. The audience was put in the scene.Nice perspective. Very true !


I think thaLapathi posed a challenge to Mani's writing skills in an obtuse way. Was the challenge acute and his writing obtuse ? Interesting angle though :mrgreen:


But the result frankly is somewhat unrewarding. The myth of "enna vENumnAlum kEkkalAm" not working may be there. But the very mortal limitedness that SuryA feels in that scene pushes everything else to the background. "dEva en kayila andha kuLandhaiya koduthappO eppidi irundhichchu theriyumA..." is a line we know miles before it is spoken. We understand he is not as much as Deva says he is. He cannot give the baby what she wants (as the mother quite piercingly, eloquently and silently says). Rajini :notworthy:

[thilak4life]

Okay, "Guru" fans can take a peek at "What movie you last saw" thread. :)

[equanimus]

Ah equanimus, let me declare upfront that I am a sucker for well made melodrama...Well, the "well made" in the previous sentence was just my ego talking and can be ignored :-).
PR,
I am a sucker for melodrama too. salangai oli, nandhA (to pick diverse, melodramatic films), the list is long. Actually, when I mentioned about the film being melodramatic, I wanted to add this caveat note and mention nandhA in context. Now, that is another film which deals with a broken mother-son relationship; it is melodramatic and it works so well. There, the content is really heavy that one doesn't feel like questioning its appropriateness. In other words, the film is possibly more effective because of the very melodrama.
But, here in thaLapathi, the setting is fittingly bleak, as bleak as it gets in a Mani film. But, what Mani makes of it is shockingly simplistic. Frankly, I must say, the adaptation (from the Mahabharata) is rather poor (considering how strong the source material is). When the mother and son meet, it takes no time for them to bridge the unbridgeable gap, they hug each other and weep together. [For a comic relief, let's cut to another scene from another film and recall the first line that Venu Gopal gets to speak to one of his four sons. :rotfl: That cracker of a line, anyone?]
There's simply no dilemma, no crisis, in the minds of these characters. Less said about Arjun, the better. "en aNNan koodavA nAn ithana nAL mOdhittu irundhEn!" he quickly turns apologetic about his tiffs with Surya. And, what does Duryodhana do? He surrenders, of course! ("en surya'voda kudumbam en kudumbam!" he declares.) Ah, why beat around the bush, it's a cloying, full-fledged family reunion out there! (Arjun calling out Surya as "aNNA!" is another such moment; I refrain from calling it "priceless" only because it comes from Mani Ratnam. :))


He just had me that moment. That is the precise reason why MR is so enjoyable. (Coming to think of it, none of the lines and force of the decision, are beyond the impulsive Devaraj)
That's what I referred to as the "challenge." Here, Mani still manages to succeed, but the impact that ought to be there is not there.



I think thaLapathi posed a challenge to Mani's writing skills in an obtuse way. Was the challenge acute and his writing obtuse ? Interesting angle though :mrgreen:
The challenge is indeed acute, but it can be seen as a formalistic challenge only in an obtuse sense (or by obtuse guys like me).



But the result frankly is somewhat unrewarding. The myth of "enna vENumnAlum kEkkalAm" not working may be there. But the very mortal limitedness that SuryA feels in that scene pushes everything else to the background. "dEva en kayila andha kuLandhaiya koduthappO eppidi irundhichchu theriyumA..." is a line we know miles before it is spoken. We understand he is not as much as Deva says he is. He cannot give the baby what she wants (as the mother quite piercingly, eloquently and silently says). Rajini :notworthy:
Very true and a very effective scene. And, I quoted that line to say that it works rather well in the context of mythology. It's the film that I find unrewarding on the whole in the context of the mythology.

[thilak4life]

BTw, I thought Amudha's lines was much like Arjun, with "pa", "ma", very textbookish, and also the way its spoken was slightly similar!

[P_R]

considering how strong the source material is Stiff standard. I remember reading a recent interview by Malayalam director Lohitadas. He said "all stories have been told by vyAsar". These kind of statements are usually made very superficially but with "this" source material it is largely true.


When the mother and son meet, it takes no time for them to bridge the unbridgeable gap, they hug each other and weep together. Quite a let down. But I would say that is a scene that was doomed to fail, but MR had redeemed it "not wholly or in full measure but substantially"


The challenge is indeed acute, but it can be seen as a formalistic challenge only in an obtuse sense (or by obtuse guys like me). Ah. Don't even bother replying :-) That was just me, not being mature enough to leave a potential pun alone. Was itching to say something more like your angle being right us reaching a congruence.


It's the film that I find unrewarding on the whole in the context of the mythology. I thought MR's interpretation was pretty human an -dare I use the word - real.
If the original parted with his kavacha kundaLam, Surya (besides all the "deeds") makes a powerful impact with "yENNen azhugureenga....verum paNam !"

It would be great if he considers more of these kind of reinterpretation themes doing what Vishal Bharadwaj is doing.

[equanimus]

considering how strong the source material is Stiff standard. I remember reading a recent interview by Malayalam director Lohitadas. He said "all stories have been told by vyAsar". These kind of statements are usually made very superficially but with "this" source material it is largely true.
Absolutely. Mahabharata is so rich and profound that anything is bould to fall short in comparison. I'm sure you'd agree, to take into account the strength of the source material would not be to set a stiff standard, but to expect some sophistication in adapting it and handling the various themes as it is all there already!



The challenge is indeed acute, but it can be seen as a formalistic challenge only in an obtuse sense (or by obtuse guys like me). Ah. Don't even bother replying :-) That was just me, not being mature enough to leave a potential pun alone. Was itching to say something more like your angle being right us reaching a congruence.
Ha ha, I know! But, I couldn't resist another obtuse (!) pun in turn.


I agree that MR has this schizophrenic mix of subtlety and -to use your word- sledgehammer.
By the way, I initially did call it "a weird concoction of subtlety and the sledgehammer." There was a nice ring to it. (However, I changed it because the peer-opposite of 'subtlety' would rather be "sledgehammer-ness" or something. Duh!)

[thilak4life]

Equanimus,

I agree on broader terms in terms of a mature Mani from the Nayagan days. Let's forget the bad sensationalized sequences in Guru, the film has an underlying propaganda of glamourizing the rise of a bourgoisie Entrepreneur to a visionary, this I personally find surprising and underwhelming, coming from the man who made Iruvar. In Nayagan, the deeds were of less personal interest, because of the character. Gurukhant is different from Velu and Anandan, who were both lowbrow in a plebeian sense. Anandan's interest is fascinating in general, for one could emphasis over a simple line, yaarum pasi patni-oda irukka kudaathu. Or, does he love the power he attains? Or, Is it to prove a personal point? Or, is it a combination of things? With Guru, Mani's love for the middle class spirit is ostensible enough. He clearly stresses, that India needs many such Gurukhants to cope globally (with the Gandhi metaphor in the courtroom, you go 'wtf',) and he brings the middle class values along. He says to the effect that the rising of the middle class is curbed in India (he says even the Sarkar and the system is a part of it,) and hence Guru's rise is being questioned, now isn't that contradictory to the defense of Guru being too powerful to not to let go scot-free? (let me play the devil's advocate here) While Mani brings in a justification with such passion, the denouement looks less convincing, for what is to follow is the mere opposite. Or, the jury must be manipulated by the end of that hilarious speech. Velu's court proceeding is made obscure, and hence exciting enough, for we don't get see such a contradiction. :)

However, there's a clear justifcation available. From the start, you see a middle class boy who is ambitious, getting bigger and bigger. The film is more of Guru's own perspective, it begins with his monologue (I think you missed it,) and ends with his 'success' speech. How his dreams are attained is what the film is about, and hence all views expressed are justified to him. I personally find such a take to be very elmentary, less interesting, and less rewarding. Thematically, the film is again on the obvious lines. I missed the non-judgmental Mani here, and in the process of being a puppeteer, ends up being a marionette for the reliance propaganda (and indirectly, Bachchan upheaving.) The masala moments are the lowest yet for a Mani film. The overman lines from Guru to Saxena, or to the Jury (with some pompous BGM).

I certainly don't find the question of Morality and yes, I don't find the flawed protagonist going Scot-free to be utterly problematic. But it's the profuse enchantment that Mani offers to Guru, the handling with which he approaches the character. Thankfully he didn't make it kitschy in Nayagan with court sequences, or the cinematic confrontations from Velu to the antagonists, with one liners, and finally, the less complicated Velu isn't justified, Velu's justification or his daughter's objection are equally balanced. Compare that to Manik-Sax being insignificant by the end of it. All the more problematic here. [In essence, I find Nayagan flawless and seamless, this I say while categorically finding Iruvar to be his best film/biopic.]


[tscii:8c2e72cfe4][/tscii:8c2e72cfe4]Thilak,
I've seen Guru only once (yet to revisit it, despite missing the first few minutes including the first song). So, I might not have the same things to say about the film over multiple viewings. I really liked the film, but am not comfortable calling myself a *fan* of the film, and don't want to sound too defensive about the film. :) But -- but, I don't buy the the criticism on the film in terms of its morality.

Firstly, I don't think it was a hagiography of Dhirubhai Ambani. Mani clearly fictionalized the material he has (which is bound to resemble one of these astonishingly successful entrepreneurs) with the various other elements like romance, love and friendship in his film. I think his vision was to chronicle the rise of an entrepreneur in a left-leaning nation (with all of his trademark "commercial elements") and not to document the rise of Dhirubhai Ambani. What's so questionable abou this, I don't get. And, I appreciate the way Mani treats his "biopic" films. They're no exposés. He is sensitive to his protagonists and builds their stories around their personal lives. And here, it was especially commendable because the protagonist is a businessman, a man who is only interested in promoting himself. There's simply nothing to romanticise about him.
Secondly, I don't think Mani took sides with the protagonist here. To say this would be somewhat akin to say that Mani took sides with Anandan in Iruvar. The beauty of Mani's non-judgementality lies in the way he puts Anandan and Thamizh Chelvan on the same pedestal and observes them regardless of their ideologies (or, the lack of it in Anandan's case).

Now, Guru, I thought was a smart and mature film because as much as it's sensitive to his protagonist, it is not blind about him. Throughout the film, the only "reasons" offered to Gurubhai's deeds are his own interests. The film is not apologetic about his criminal activities. In this aspect, the depiction here is much more honest than in Nayagan. Where you hardly get to see Velu Naicker doing his business. And, what's more ironic than the same audience which empathised with a much bigger (in pure legal terms) criminal like Velu Naicker finds it hard to accept that a Gurubhai (whose crimes are far lesser in comparison) goes scot-free?
Many pointed out how the judgement scene is ridiculous. (I might agree about some of the lines spoken by the judges just before the judgement though! After all, the finale in such cases are often a matter of formality.) The truth, I think, is we've watched way too many films in which criminals are let go off just like that, and this was equated to that. Really, what other sort of judgement can one expect on a man as powerful as Gurubhai?
The final speech was Gurubhai just showing off his achievements, his reach among the mass ("public se kya darna sahab? main khud public hoon!"), manipulating the junta so as to cement their support for him and threateningly pointing out his inevitability -- as his photos are being clicked all over. When he gets up, he even turns around, poses for these camera and gestures with his hand before starting his speech. Again, Mani doesn't villainize him here either ("khada ho jaoon ya, iske liye bhi license chahiye?"). But the choice is again apt because that's what the film is about.

I think the court scenes in general are played out in an outright masala format, but they also had strong moments such as these. (It's worth mentioning that Nayagan even keeps out of a court scene like this.) The whole film is unabashedly mainstream film; most of the masala moments actually worked for me. The staging of the ending was a bit too upbeat and on a congratulatory note for me though. But again, that exactly is the reality.

[kannannn]

[tscii:838125d26d]

vidya balan - Guru is shown as a person who is very self-centred......so Vidya balan was a contradiction to that character of Guru.....the "will u marry me sequence" and ending it with a "rakhi tying" is vintage mani
So, Vidya Balan's character was created to show the soft side of Guru? Well, see that is the problem. Every character in Guru seems to have been 'created' to showcase Guru's persona. As I said, the movie seems like a chronicle of Guru's life. I don't have a problem with it as long as there is perspective. Here it is just reads like a dateline of Guru's Shakti Parivar. 19xx - Guru starts SP. 19xx - Guru charged with excise tax evasion, and so on.


Climax is 100% reality.....If u read dhirubhai's life story, he was slapped a fine of Rs.60crores+ out of his Rs.40000000000 property for all his irregularities

movie is about how a confident human mind can overcome any obstacle.........if thats a worthless excercise :roll:
I don't mind if the climax was what happened in reality. Mani could have done two things. Either show strong arguments against the committee's charges, or leave it for the viewer to infer (just as in Nayagan, as equanimus pointed out). You can't show a dumb court scene with no relevance to the charges and end the movie on that note.

Firstly, I don't think it was a hagiography of Dhirubhai Ambani. Mani clearly fictionalized the material he has (which is bound to resemble one of these astonishingly successful entrepreneurs) with the various other elements like romance, love and friendship in his film. I think his vision was to chronicle the rise of an entrepreneur in a left-leaning nation (with all of his trademark "commercial elements") and not to document the rise of Dhirubhai Ambani. What's so questionable abou this, I don't get. And, I appreciate the way Mani treats his "biopic" films. They're no exposés. He is sensitive to his protagonists and builds their stories around their personal lives. And here, it was especially commendable because the protagonist is a businessman, a man who is only interested in promoting himself. There's simply nothing to romanticise about him.
I don’t mind movies with grey characters. In fact, I would prefer such movies to Mani’s. The problem with Mani’s movies (after Nayagan) is that he touches all issues superficially. In Guru, the protagonist is not your pristine ethics-conscious businessman, but for such a character to work, I expect either
a) the inner turmoil of the character to be presented in a convincing way
or
b) the character to overcome, or succumb to, external battles against him.

Guru doesn’t deal with the first. Fine. But the second isn’t dealt with strongly either. Mani just seems to have skimmed the surface of Guru’s struggles. As a viewer, I expect more than just empty challenges to the protagonist. At every turn we see the same words thrown at Guru: “Yeh kaam tere se nahi hoga” . And what do we see next? Voila, our hero (?!) has overcome the challenge, with nothing more than a smile as response. This movie has superficiality written all over it. Right from the scenes in textile market to the final committee hearing, the movie revolves around Guru with the other characters created to just aid in the magnification of his character.

And speaking of superficiality, notice the scene where Sujatha and Guru are left standing alone, just a foot away from each other after Sujatha’s brother reveals Guru’s true intentions behind his offer to marry. Cut to the next scene, where a tram worms its way through (!!) between them signifying a distance in their relationship. Now, if Mani was going for symbolism here, I am sorry for him. All, I could think of was how Mani would have asked Abhishek and Aishwarya to move away so he could create space for symbolism. As series of such corny scenes only left me wondering if Mani knew what he was doing!!
[/tscii:838125d26d]

[thilak4life]

our hero (?!) has overcome the challenge, with nothing more than a smile as response.

This was irritating after a point. Abhishek uses his smile, and later his drooping jaws to varying proportions. Mainly because he is insufficient to convey deeper moods with a suitably nuanced expression, like Kamal or Lal!

[thilak4life]

The tram symbolism was to pave way for the song which was to follow. In any case, I thought Mani was crying out loud about Gurubhai's achievement. Imagine a "Velu-naicker-naicker-naick.." or "Anandan" chorus in "Nayagan" and "Iruvar" respectively. :)

[ramsri]

So we've got quite a discussion going here after all! :)
thilak, kannan - extremely insightful views on Guru - still plenty of room for discussion there - but I'm going to pass over that right now, choosing instead, to stay with Dalapathi 'cos I think we have some unfinished business there...
Picking up the pieces from equanimus then -



Frankly, I must say, the adaptation (from the Mahabharata) is rather poor (considering how strong the source material is). When the mother and son meet, it takes no time for them to bridge the unbridgeable gap, they hug each other and weep together.
There's simply no dilemma, no crisis, in the minds of these characters.


Agree wholeheartedly. That was quite unlike Mani. But I'm inclined to think PR has a point when he says the scene would've ended up a stinker anyway, and Mani probably just about managed to salvage something from it, by constructing it that way.
Be that as it may - my experience watching Dalapathi has been that such shallow scenes and cliched reactions are more the exception than the rule. Agreed, it does have its Aw-c'mon-gimme-a-break moments where the screenplay slips out of line... Arvind Swamy's "unna madhri enakkoru annan irundhurundha" and even for that matter, the "accham illai, accham illai" is the kinda stuff that makes you cringe. But such moments are few and far between. In general, the film tends to follow the "non-expositional", putting-the-audience-in-the-scene style equanimus had talked about earlier. The characters look, feel, talk and react to situations in a way thats consistent with how they've been written, and in line with our understanding of what kind of people they are. That's what authenticity is about, in my book. The film doesn't lie about its characters and their moralities. It doesn't feel the need to justify actions, events, situations, reactions - it relies on the strength of its characterizations to do all that. It assumes that what you've been told about these people is enough to make up your own mind as to why someone said what they said, in the way in which they said it. Equanimus - not sure if I'm reading you correctly - but all this, in part at least, is responsible for ultimately creating the effect of the audience being "in the scene", rather than the scene "speaking to the audience".

There might be exaggeration and melodrama (which I'm glad to note, is not a bad word on this forum :D), but one thing you will not find is pretence. And that's more than can be said of some of MR's more recent writing - superficial is not a word one would normally associate with his work, but he's increasingly (and not without good reason) being accused of artificiality and a tendency to deal with so-called issues at the surface rather than delve deeper and come up with something profound. But hey - I'm digressing here - more on all this when we talk of Guru
:wink:


He just had me that moment. That is the precise reason why MR is so enjoyable. (Coming to think of it, none of the lines and force of the decision, are beyond the impulsive Devaraj)

PR - it's interesting you should mention it. We're often led to believe that the ultimate mark of a filmmaker's craft is the ability to create the kind of moments that stay with you long after you leave the cinema. In all of MR's work, one could name at least a dozen such scenes that have achieved cult status and become iconic. On the other hand, you have these wonderful, albeit non-iconic moments (such as the one you've mentioned) - whose effect you don't feel until much later, or after repeated viewings. The greatness of the scene, basically, is in its simplicity - you're in and out of the moment so quickly you probably don't realize how much you've enjoyed it! :2thumbsup:


I quoted that line to say that it works rather well in the context of mythology. It's the film that I find unrewarding on the whole in the context of the mythology.

I'm not sure if the film is meant to be taken in the context of the mythology. Guess we're all agreed that the enormity of the source material is such that it would almost always completely dwarf any attempt made to adapt it. What Mani's adaptation does is lift the spirit of the Mahabharata's characters and try to place them in a setting of his choice. Admittedly, it comes across as shallow and halting at times :x , but I don't think that's necessarily a result of looking at it in the context of the epic. The mother-son weepie scene, for example, would've been no more believable if it'd been "original". So to sit in judgement of the film on an absolute level, and say it doesn't go down well in light of the original, might just be a tad unfair. What say you??
That said, I've gotta agree with your fundamental point that of the themes common to the source and the adaptation, there were a few that could (indeed, should) have been better woven into the screenplay. Karna's conversation with Kunti before the great war is the stuff of epic legend - and immediately comes across as something that could've made for brilliant screen material. Wonder how that kind of thing got sidelined - looks like MR missed a trick or two there after all... :huh:

[ramsri]

All this talk of Dalapathi has really whet the appetite...
Was just watching this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yODMRVKuvBU&feature=related) and found myself completely blown away (yet again!) by the sheer intensity of the scene. Watch how it starts on an ordinary note - "Inga ungaLukku oru thani court, thani police" (the lawman taking the first round - its his den, after all), note the self-effacing smile on Deva's face when the collector says "Oru thani AtchiyE nadathareeNga". When he reacts with "Udhavi kettu varANga..." you still have no idea what we're headed for... Surya's first remarks ("neeNga eppayAvadhu yEzhaya irundhirukengaLA...?") might sound cliched but you can't help falling for the earnestness with which they're delivered.
Then the escalation - "Yedhu seri yedhu thappunu mudivu seyya nANga irukOm" and "Neenga senjA seri, adhE nAnga senjA thappA??"
The tab line from the collector which you know has been coming for a while - "Unga kathalukku indha oor janaNga bayapaduvAnga, nA bayapadamAten"
A critical point in the conversation - the music (:thumbsup:) takes over as the camera peeps out from behind Arjun's shoulder to show us how Surya is taking this.
And then the climax -
"Unna mAdhri rowdythanam paNravaNgaLa enaku pudikAdhu"
"Idhu Surya saar - urasAdheenga" (a line written specifically for Rajni??).
MariyAdha illAma pesarAn rascal!!
Dai, thodra pakalAm, thodra pakalAm!!

(Awesome!! The knee-jerk reaction here... :notworthy:)

And then Deva diffuses the situation with -
UngaLuku ippo enna vENum?...

A combination of screenwriting, acting, direction, camerawork and music that's just out of this world... phenomenal... yet again, :notworthy:

[equanimus]

[tscii:4108fe698c][/tscii:4108fe698c]Thilak,
My defence for the film is purely about its politics and surely that's the biggest criticism that the film faced. I thought it was a good film, but I don't think it's an exceptionally well-made film (as I said before, I can't even say I'm a *fan* of the film; it won't even make the top 5 films of this year for me), but I think it's strong on its politics. In short, I agree with how Greatbong summarised the film in his review (http://www.greatbong.net/2007/02/07/guru-the-review/).

In the lavishly mounted “Guru”, Maniratnam (arguably India’s finest mainstream movie director) tries to answer these questions through the fable of Gurukant Desai or Gurubhai, a thinly-disguised surrogate for Dhirubhai Ambani, challenging you to interpret this man as either a crooked businessman who justified his brazen transgressions of the law by self-servingly appealing to a higher ideal (the freedom to make money) or a revolutionary who broke the anaconda-like grip of the permit raaj (you needed a permit to import machinery, you needed a permit to increase production, you needed a permit to make more profit) on Indian businesses by showing how the system itself made it impossible to run a successful enterprise without engaging in corruption.
It's one of the best reviews I've read on the film. The thing I most liked in the film is its politics and the way Mani conceived his lead character. Otherwise, it's a rather straightforward film with all commercial trappings. (Just read Greatbong's review again, he calls it "straitjacketed.").


With Guru, Mani's love for the middle class spirit is ostensible enough. He clearly stresses, that India needs many such Gurukhants to cope globally (with the Gandhi metaphor in the courtroom, you go 'wtf',) and he brings the middle class values along. He says to the effect that the rising of the middle class is curbed in India (he says even the Sarkar and the system is a part of it,) and hence Guru's rise is being questioned, now isn't that contradictory to the defense of Guru being too powerful to not to let go scot-free? (let me play the devil's advocate here)
I don't get what you mean by "middle class spirit." I don't think Mani wanted to play out this film as the success of the middle-class spirit at all (By the way, I hated the caption -- "Villager, Visionary, Winner"; one of the reasons why I thought the film would suck). If Gurukant Desai or Dhirubhai Ambani did anything at all, it was the right opposite of what the bourgeois does, or even thinks of doing. The middle-class people (I for one don't!) might revere Ambani for what he became, but that's in the aftermath. And, his "spirit" (whatever it means) is anything but middle-class. And, if the bourgeois middle-class thinks otherwise, what's more ironic than that! That's exactly why what you've said above is contradictory.

Guru isn't really an idealist-capitalist, that is, a capitalist on ideological terms. He's a businessman who finds the government policy (the license raj) unfair, manipulates it to his own good, tweaks and breaks the government regulations by playing it to the bureaucrats. The film challenges the audience to judge him for what he is. There's no pretentious reason offered for his corruption.
Guru's defence -- a self-serving speech on his struggle, success and strength -- is not relevant to the case at all. In fact, he tacitly accepts the accusations about of his unlawful activities and his defence is only about the whys. It's all said in rhetoric. But, he does make the all-important point about the license raj and regulations that were best done away with. The Nayagan-equivalent is Naicker's scene with his daughter. Again, the difference between the two scenarios is glaringly -- Guru's unlawful activities are far smaller in comparison and largely "victimless" (government can of course be seen as one!).
Manik Dasgupta and Shyam Saxena (despite not having a good share of screen time; one of the places where I think the film could've done much better) have really sinister criticisms to offer against Guru and they never change their minds.
This conflict isn't played out as a conflict of ideologies because it isn't. The ones who find Guru reprehensible are not all socialists. Manik Dasgupta is, but Saxena isn't really one (at least, not shown as one). Saxena is hell-bent on exposing the corruption of Guru, but isn't opposed to his ideology (if at all Guru had one). He is angered at the way Guru has left strains of corruption wherever he went. Or, he is a zealously idealistic journalist trying to pull off something big. These are fascinating dimensions that Mani adds to the small role which is unfortunately cut short. He loathes Guru's ways, but unlike Manikda his conflict with Guru isn't personal (effectively portrayed in those scenes where these two confront each other). He's very well aware of what he and Manikda are doing to Guru; more clearly than Manikda himself. In a very good scene, Manikda, after coming to know of Guru has suffered a stroke, naively asks why did it happen to Guru, who's at least twenty years younger to him. Madhavan coldly replies, "Shaayad hamaari vajah se." When asked what, he says, "Aap, main, Swatantra, sab unke peechhe pade hain na?" But, wait, he isn't being apologetic, only truthful. He is just about to publish a new article and he asks for Manikda's nod (which the latter gives). And, he doesn't mind crossing the line himself when it comes to exposing the corruption of Gurubhai.
It is these dimensions that Mani adds to the characters that squarely put Guru and the Manik-Shyam duo on an even pedestal and makes the conflict interesting.


with the Gandhi metaphor in the courtroom, you go 'wtf'
Actually, some serious political commentators consider the analogy to be apt. (I can't say about the aptness myself thanks to my lack of political awareness.) But, we should see it in pure political, lawful terms, because that's exactly how Guru means it. (I know zilch about Ambani, by the way, all I used to know about this fellow was that he's considered a major national icon post-independence, and that he makes it to the top 10 every year in Outlook's greatest icons or something like that. The rest is all on random reading and hearsay.)

Let me end this by making a controversial case. I think the politics of this film is more stimulating than the politics of a film like anbE sivam. My choice of anbE sivam is intentionally provocative (I very much like the film nevertheless). Now, that's one film we all love to love, isn't it? Whose politics is conveniently pleasing. I don't mean to say it shies away from the realities of the world, it surely doesn't (that's how we got those wonderful moments with the ambulance on a roadside). But, it puts it all in one universally agreeable basket of altruism.

[equanimus]

Kannan,
I think I see where you're coming from. Your criticism isn't really about the film's politics (and its "stance" about Guru) as much as the lack of it (politics). I suppose your complaint is rather that the film isn't engaging enough in showing the actual struggles that Guru faced, and the audience doesn't get to witness a real contest, and that it doesn't offer strong perspectives about Guru. This is one of the biggest criticisms Mani has faced for many of his films -- Dil Se, Iruvar, Kannathil Muthamittal etc.

Now, the film engaged me for sure, but it doesn't really delve into in great detail about Guru's struggle and the challenges he faces in his dizzying rise as an entrepreneur; there's also a liberal dose of other elements (love, personal life etc.) to the film. This again is one of the "hallmarks," (or a dull trait, based on how one sees it) of Mani Ratnam. As you've mentioned, this tendency "to touch upon the aspects at a surface level" can be seen in many of his films.

But, I don't read that as superficiality at all. I'll try to respond to this criticism (if at all I've captured it right) and the way I read this purported "lack of depth/intensity" one of these days. Just my two cents.

[thilak4life]

Oh, Apologize for the delayed response. I've been meaning to reply to this. Now that I have all the time, Let's start. I'm glad that morality is out of the question, why would such an elementary view be discussed? :)


The middle-class people (I for one don't!) might revere Ambani for what he became, but that's in the aftermath. And, his "spirit" (whatever it means) is anything but middle-class.

Well, that's precisely what I meant. Mani himself is a part of the consummate bourgeoisie who isn't politically well equipped. His line of thinking is much in line with middle class consumerism and consumption, who cares zilch about the effects of capitialism, but still revere the dhirubhais of the world, for it benefits 'em of course. But, I couldn't care less on the "effects of capitalism" or whether it's good or bad i. But what I do care about is Mani's handling , and his craft of sculplting brilliant narratives with such refinement and finesse!


With Guru, Mani's love for the middle class spirit is ostensible enough. He clearly stresses, that India needs many such Gurukhants to cope globally (with the Gandhi metaphor in the courtroom, you go 'wtf',) and he brings the middle class values along.

We talk about nonjudgmentality, borrowing my favorite critic's phrase, Guru is an ode to capitalism. Whether this is good or not, is not my issue, but how this simple premise was made, it's too sensational for my liking. But, to claim that Mani didn't stress it out is not true. Guru is nothing but Reliance's baby!

Let me also clarify this,

He(Guru) says to the effect that the rising of the middle class is curbed in India (he says even the Sarkar and the system is a part of it,) and hence Guru's rise is being questioned, now isn't that contradictory to the defense of Guru being too powerful to not to let go scot-free? (let me play the devil's advocate here)

This was for,


The truth, I think, is we've watched way too many films in which criminals are let go off just like that, and this was equated to that. Really, what other sort of judgement can one expect on a man as powerful as Gurubhai?

If Guru was in fact that powerful, then why defend on lines of being targetted as a middle class entrepreneur to the jury, and his rise is curbed? Isn't that a contradiction to the fact that he's too powerful for the jury? However, I realize the fact that Guru once again could have played with the legal hassles too, and came out the winner. So, the speech and the court proceedings fall in place, yet again.

And to the beginning. Guru has always been a keen observer, and the street gambling sequence in turkey where he wins it all, is what the film was about. And, what we get is less rewarding and an equal gamble like the last bet, (except that we end up being underwhelmed, more so for a Mani fan.) I say it again, there was an unabashed glamourization of Gurubhai's rise for the most part, except that there was a dramatic paralysis phase, Sujatha-Guru pick themselves up from, that was perhaps a countermand to Vidya balan's life, (Btw, Saxena's relationship with her ends up tragic/short, Manikda is left stranded with no one,) whats more than a visual cue in her funeral, when Gurubhai helps Manikda out to place the last log? :) Besides, we also see Guru end up successful both personally and professionally, while none of the ideologists, or socialists or even communists aren't spared one way or the other (whats more than the commie who ran incapable of supporting Sujatha? .) If the film was to slamdunk the *other* completely, then why debunk it with such elusive deftness, and such propaganda. Worst of all, a tag of "Villager, Visionary, Winner" (thanks for reminding,) cringeworthy for Mani standards!


The film challenges the audience to judge him for what he is. There's no pretentious reason offered for his corruption.

The reason is clear, he is ambitious, and he tweaks and breaks the set rules - Fine. But that wasn't ambiguous in any case, and the film doesn't let us judge, because it already challenges us with a propagandistic product! What's more ridiculous is the way the court sequence was kitsch, weird, and utterly ridiculous, for it makes the Jury more gullible than the audience. Wait, before the court proceedings too, The shareholder to Gurubhai about his unmarried three daughters, and his support for Guru - Is there anything more judgmental, and slanted than that? Such manipulative sequences has often been a part of his, but it's exaggerated to no measures here. Finally, I have to end up with the positives, Mithunda and Maddy were both brilliant, and the acting wasn't bad in general (perhaps a more nuanced actor could have helped the film, Irrfan in Guru would be the *thing*.) Rajeev Menon's work here is absolutely brilliant. And, heartfelt eulogies to Mani, for this film was still decent enough for the premise it hangs with, and proves that he wouldn't get substandard even if he was forced to. :notworthy:

[kannannn]

Kannan,
I think I see where you're coming from. Your criticism isn't really about the film's politics (and its "stance" about Guru) as much as the lack of it (politics). I suppose your complaint is rather that the film isn't engaging enough in showing the actual struggles that Guru faced, and the audience doesn't get to witness a real contest, and that it doesn't offer strong perspectives about Guru. This is one of the biggest criticisms Mani has faced for many of his films -- Dil Se, Iruvar, Kannathil Muthamittal etc.
Let me clear the air here. I don't have a problem with movies that don't have a strong plot. In fact, I love films where the plot is just a device that helps the director unleash his philosophical musings. There is a thrill to such films. Mani doesn't make such movies, so I won't walk that road. Let me just list a couple of movies that deal with either the social themes with personal life of the protagonist as a backdrop or vice versa. How about 'Thaneer Thaneer' for the first? The movie is a powerful statement on political apathy and the struggle of the common man. Saritha's personal problems are just fleetingly touched upon. As for the second, Hazaaron Khwaishein Aisi comes to mind. The tumultous 70's is just a backdrop to the events that unfold in the life of KK, SA and CS. Neither is pretentious and most importantly neither confuses the viewer. Unfortunately, Mani tries to dabble in both social and personal aspects of his characters' lives that more often than not, his real intentions are unclear.

Wait, before the court proceedings too, The shareholder to Gurubhai about his unmarried three daughters, and his support for Guru - Is there anything more judgmental, and slanted than that? Such manipulative sequences has often been a part of his, but it's exaggerated to no measures here.
:exactly: Mani's ambiguity comes to the fore again in this outing. He builds a strong case for Guru and yet pretends to take the middle path.

Anyway, I am eager to hear equanimus' take on the criticism against Mani. More grouses against him start here(from the old discussions):
http://mayyam.com/hub/viewtopic.php?p=899478#899478

[thilak4life]

Kannannn,


Unfortunately, Mani tries to dabble in both social and personal aspects of his characters' lives that more often than not, his real intentions are unclear.

This is what I like about Mani. :) I don't think he dabbles though. It appears so because, he isn't making a statement, or taking a stance in his narrative, lets the viewer to dissect the themes, motifs, and the nuances themselves. The non-judgmentality that he exhibits in his narrative is second to none. The admiration for Mani's craft is simplistic to many, that is the cinematography or music - because they find his films to be void of stimulative implications. This I disagree. Moreover, if one is put off by the political correctness (or lack of) in his films, or any specific detail in his films, one could still love the understated handling by Mani, his refinement easily makes up for the lack of authenticity we expect (the reason I rate Kamal a few notches above Mani is precisely because of the balance he achieves here.) Regarding the dialogues, I'm a fan of visually driven narrative with terse writing, I admit. This is also to do with tolerance for the filmmaker's trope and trademarks to complement his style, in that respect, let me bring Tarantino (bohemian,) or Woody Allen (Neurotic.) Not to say that Mani or these filmmakers have no variety, but every filmmaker have their own personal style attached to different characterizations spread across their oeuvre. Mani's style and his way with the characters are much suited to his subtlety. However, their background often justifies such characters! Even the kid in KM is a self-centered brat, spoilt by the upbringing, which is reflected by Simran's concern, and Madhavan's weakness for the child. In fact, this quality defines her relentless urge to meet her mom!

As for Iruvar dialogues, I agree that Prakash Raj's lines sounds like a pseudo (you get the feeling that Suhasini was the one who spoke) at times, with such stress. But on subsequent views, you see that the whole film isn't about intricate details, and realism. Was Lal's dialect, persona, and ways of dialogue delivery anywhere close to being 'junta's delight' (like MGR's.) It's just reflection of realism - mended, and sculpted with deft touches. Thamizh Chelvan's characterization is a caricature (in Mani's standards) for a reason, and he's a convincing characterization from what I see. His dravidian inclination, and his love for the language is stressed, it has some reverberance to the general theme of Anandan (terse) having lesser faculties than Thamizh Chelvan (verbose,) but still sways the millions. There's an underlying beauty to Thamizh chelvan's view to life being different from Anandan's, and their relationship adds an extra dimension to this. The film also has brilliantly conceived sequences that's unparalleled, it would be unfair to reject it. It's my favorite Mani Ratnam film, easily one of the best from commercial Indian cinema.

Mani is from an elitist, upper middle class background, and his films often reflect his view towards life, the mood and feel his narrative often expose. He has also passed his own vision and philosophy of life, though deceptive. For the best example, the love in Alaipayuthey isn't the instinctive love between the lead characters, not the one which develops after the marriage, not the one that suddenly blossoms out of minor or major rifts, but the one which is put to test in the worst of times. This was presented nonchronologically with superbly chosen events from the relationship, and Mani's viewpoint has often been elusive in the film. But the presentation is subtle and least judgmental. And, I would still say he is one of his kind, surpassed Mahendran, and Balu Mahendra in my estimantion, inspite of the fact that he falters comparatively in terms of authenticity (lack of Tamilness, tamil roots,) and strayed over unwarranted (and equally unrequited) territories. In essence, I would be equally sad with just one particular style of filmmaking, that is, with filmmakers like BR, KB, etc (although I've begun to hate their style in comparison,) or Mani Rathnam, Mahendran, Balu Mahendra. Very few try and strive to achieve that balance, and we know who it is.. :)

[crajkumar_be]

This is what I like about Mani. :) I don't think he dabbles though. It appears so because, he isn't making a statement, or taking a stance in his narrative, lets the viewer to dissect the themes, motifs, and the nuances themselves. The non-judgmentality that he exhibits in his narrative is second to none.


He builds a strong case for Guru and yet pretends to take the middle path.

[thilak4life]

This is what I like about Mani. :) I don't think he dabbles though. It appears so because, he isn't making a statement, or taking a stance in his narrative, lets the viewer to dissect the themes, motifs, and the nuances themselves. The non-judgmentality that he exhibits in his narrative is second to none.


He builds a strong case for Guru and yet pretends to take the middle path.


Oh, Guru is a film that I thought was a definite case of having a clear cut case of capitalism and a success story, it was never a middle path. Only the film is refined for its made by Mani.

And, when I speak of non-judgmentality, it's not the complete lack of it, but it's been the least of all commercial filmmakers. Because, his case is often been on balanced grounds than endorsing a faction (save Guru.)

[MADDY]

well, i agree Guru is one film where Mani strongly advocates for the protagonist ......the scene before the climax where a person comes to Guru and says - "i dunno if u r right or wrong, but with ur shares, i got my daugthers married" - i think that was Mani's judgement on this issue :D ....

throughout the movie, he builds so many "pros" for Guru, that we are left with no option but to believe Mani was "for" Guru and not the usual middle stand he took for Dil se, Bombay, Kanathhil muthamittal, Iruvar......but i felt he did show some scenes "against" Guru - his selfishness towards his own bro-in-law, unfairly publicising the contractor's deal to buy him, bribing manekda's employees for the same, digging up old issues to shut the minister, etc etc. - but i agree he lacked any force when he placed these negative points......

i presume, it would be bcos, Dhirubhai is a big icon in west (india).......i mean, he is suppposed to be one of the major reasons behind Gujarat's giant growth, his shares have really uplifted many gujaratis, mumbaiites lives.......i remember one friend of mine, shedding tears for his death :shock: .......mani had to play with this sentiment to deliver a hit in Hindi and boy it worked absolutely well...... :D

[kannannn]

This is what I like about Mani. :) I don't think he dabbles though. It appears so because, he isn't making a statement, or taking a stance in his narrative, lets the viewer to dissect the themes, motifs, and the nuances themselves.
Adhellam dhaan avar padangalil kidaiyadhu engiren :D


The non-judgmentality that he exhibits in his narrative is second to none.
Non-judgementality is the last thing I expect from a movie-maker. A movie must have a perspective, whatever the subject, otherwise it just becomes a dramatization of events (that's exactly how I view Guru - Mani's odd support for the character notwithstanding). Impartial analysis should be left to documentary makers.


This is also to do with tolerance for the filmmaker's trope and trademarks to complement his style, in that respect, let me bring Tarantino (bohemian,) or Woody Allen (Neurotic.) Not to say that Mani or these filmmakers have no variety, but every filmmaker have their own personal style attached to different characterizations spread across their oeuvre.
Aaha, ore line'la Mani'ya Tarantino, Woody Allen kooda serthuttingale :D . Their trademark is not just the dialogues. It goes much beyond that. We will digress if we venture into that aspect.

I may seem too critical of Mani, but it is only because he is often praised as THE best director we have. Take away that sobriquet, and I do agree that he has made some good entertainers.

[MADDY]

I may seem too critical of Mani, but it is only because he is often praised as THE best director we have. Take away that sobriquet, and I do agree that he has made some good entertainers.

can we help if people are in awe of this man :huh: - i think mani is defnitely below Mahendran and BR - when it comes to finer aspects of story telling.......but i think he is the most successful in giving commercial cinema with great aesthetic sense.........technology wise - he beats the *new* guys left-right, leave alone BR and Mahendran.......and the variety of themes - there too, he scores a point over the rest........

he has his own way of making movies - which is defintely not the most superior - but received well by people......

[equanimus]

[tscii:0c5b289c67][/tscii:0c5b289c67]Morality, I think, is very important in the discussion of a film like Guru. Not because its protagonist deals with a moral conflict within himself or with others, but because he simply doesn't. Here's a protagonist who refuses to see his business through the prism of morality and ethics. The central conflict in Guru is not between two moral perspectives, but between morality and the absence of it. This is why it should not be taken as a capitalism vs. socialism duel, as capitalism is also an ideology and very much about being morally right. The conflict is between the morality of the Nanajis (I pluralise intentionally to say that most Indians held up to the same moral) and the amorality of Guru.

My viewing of Guru (the film) was in this point of view. The film actively engages with the amorality of Guru when it comes to pursue his goal. This is where Mani takes the 'allegorical' path (as he has done many times before) and places this very angle in the various strands of the film; in his relationship with his wife, brother-in-law, mentor and so on. Many might not be able to approve of Guru's decision to marry Sujata. (Sujata when she comes to know of it is shattered herself.) But, Guru has no problem with it and the way he sees it, it has nothing to do with his love for his would-be wife.
Mani also comes up trumps in the way he 'humanizes' Guru. In any other film, we'd have had this relentless pursuer of wealth portrayed as a slimeball, but not so with Mani Ratnam. Vidya Balan connects more to Guru than her idealistic father or even her husband. She buys into the pragmatist standpoint of Guru. (Not to forget that she's a shareholder of Shakti Corporation.) In a sheer populist sense, the Nanajis of the world have become less significant and influencing. This is not the director judging them, but contemporary social reality. This is why a Dhirubhai Ambani is a national icon while a Ramnath Goenka isn't quite.
I must say, Mani Ratnam creates a miniature of the social scenario effectively by establishing these characters. Like I was talking about Shyam Saxena before, he's the real peer-opponent of Guru in many ways in the film, while Nanaji is his father-figure from whom he inherits his ethics. But much as Shyam inherits his vitalities from Nanaji, he is similar to Guru in many ways. He's also quite amoral (or non-judgemental) when it comes to exposing Guru. He carries his job with unquestionable fervour to expose Guru and his corruption, but he would't mind if the expose is called off, he can indulge in a banter with him, unlike Nanaji. And, Guru for what he is simply holds no grudges against these people who judge him. He lives with them. "Ab pair padoon, kya?" he asks his brother-in-law when he's miffed at the way Guru sidelined him.
I don't understand the question about why these shades of Guru are brought into the film. That's precisely the idea! It's simply because Guru is the central protagonist in the film, these dimensions are added to his character. But at the same time, neither is the morality of his opponents deconstructed, nor their charges against Guru answered in the film (or by its protagonist).

Here's where I significantly differ from the criticisms on the film and why it holds up better than a Nayagan in terms of a balanced artistic viewpoint. (Nayagan is a far more raw and visceral film, flawlessly executed, and a breakthrough in its formalistic aspects. So, no question about which is the better film overall.) You say, in Nayagan, things are kept simple (even simplistic) and obscure, and there can't be severe complaints. Absolutely. But, why keep it simplistic when there is a social angle in the story? (Just watching The Godfather and Nayagan side by side will tell us the social angle is the big difference between the two films.) Now, I'm not fond of consciously deconstructing characters within a film at all, but it sticks out if the filmmaker avoids doing what I'd call as "natural or spontaneous deconstruction." Mani hardly deconstructs Velu, but he (and "the public" in the film) completely deconstructs Guru for the audience (which includes you and me) watching the film. In fact, by virtue of the characterisation, there's no need for an explicit deconstruction. Because Guru himself is shown to know as much (his amorality surfaces again) as can be deconstructed about him. This is the real challenge that was posed to the audience (or, at least, to me). Like someone said when the film was released, it's like 'The People vs. Larry Flynt.' (I haven't seen the Miloš Forman film myself, but the premises of the two films seem to be strikingly similar.)
Now, only by watching the film, I came to witness the "negative shades" (or, the amoral side) of Guru. I didn't have any idea about the backstory or the history of events. It's the director who portrayed these events and provoked his audience. Like I had originally mentioned in my notes on the film (which Thilak linked to here), I didn't approve of the way the denouement is staged either (too upbeat for a cynic like me!), but I don't think it came off as fake. While it's the staging I disapproved of (for that matter, I don't find the romanticisation of the larger-than-life hero in Iruvar as absolutely fitting either; I take these as fetishes, not that that's how one must take it; after all, it's reasonably appropriate to stage it for the film's audience as if to suggest that the audience is part of the junta in the film), I think it depicts the reality. Who're these people who're cheering for Gurubhai? What do they think of him? Why are they cheering for him?
You mention about the cab driver, the share-holder of Gurubhai's company. Now, that scene was indeed amusing to me, and what instantly hit me was again the Nayagan-connection. But, it almost works like a wink-wink scene here where Mani overtly deconstructs a scene like that (in the generic sense), even as he plays it out the same way. In Nayagan, Velu is shown as a saviour in a literalist sense in such a scene, but here the cab driver is a shareholder who's willing to be complicit in Guru's corruption (a shareholder!) as far as he makes his profit out of his "share." This backstory is very much underlined in Guru. But even here Mani remains doggedly neutral. Who's he to pass a judgement on the cab driver who made money out of the investment?

Isn't that why we first see Guru addressing an empty ground as the film starts? (Which I missed, by the way.) And, as the film draws to an end, we see the same shot (and the ground still seems empty), but the shot extends further and we realise that now we've a full audience! But, the questions raised (by his brother-in-law, Nanaji, Shyam Saxena all of who vanish from the narrative at some point or the other) all remain nevertheless.

In any case, the denouement, regardless of how it worked, doesn't sum up the whole exercise. In Guru, Mani engages with a contemporary reality in an inconspicuously commercial format, but also provokes the audience with its subversiveness. Yes, he doesn't go the full mile. I think the commercial format and not-going-the-full-mile is by design as far as Mani Ratnam goes. I've come to live with it. May be, I'd have liked a film like this even more if someone more contemptuous about formulaic cinema had made it, but that's irrelevant. It's for this very subversiveness and slyness, I think Guru holds up. Unlike Yuva which was more wishful thinking than reality. Now, that's a film about which I'd say, "this film was still decent enough for the premise it hangs with." :) (The Inba story is superb to say the least, but that doesn't sum up the whole exercise, to borrow the same expression. :)) But, the premise of Guru itself is potent, the way I see it. I'd be as critical of reading this film as "an epic paean to can-do spirit." (NY Times called it that.) Not because it's being critical of the can-do spirit (wow, what a premise! I'd want to make a film like that :)), but because it falls far short of summing up the full exercise.

[equanimus]

In general, the film tends to follow the "non-expositional", putting-the-audience-in-the-scene style equanimus had talked about earlier. The characters look, feel, talk and react to situations in a way thats consistent with how they've been written, and in line with our understanding of what kind of people they are. That's what authenticity is about, in my book. The film doesn't lie about its characters and their moralities. It doesn't feel the need to justify actions, events, situations, reactions - it relies on the strength of its characterizations to do all that. It assumes that what you've been told about these people is enough to make up your own mind as to why someone said what they said, in the way in which they said it. Equanimus - not sure if I'm reading you correctly - but all this, in part at least, is responsible for ultimately creating the effect of the audience being "in the scene", rather than the scene "speaking to the audience".
Absolutely, Ramsri. If you read my post again, I wasn't suggesting that Mani doesn't follow a putting-the-audience-in-the-scene style. That's elementary Mani Ratnam. These scenes are executed in typical Mani style, and that was the acute challenge I was talking about. :) When the plot proceedings and dialogues are all but screaming out loud for a kitsche treatment, Mani insists in putting them in his world!


I quoted that line to say that it works rather well in the context of mythology. It's the film that I find unrewarding on the whole in the context of the mythology.

I'm not sure if the film is meant to be taken in the context of the mythology. Guess we're all agreed that the enormity of the source material is such that it would almost always completely dwarf any attempt made to adapt it. What Mani's adaptation does is lift the spirit of the Mahabharata's characters and try to place them in a setting of his choice. Admittedly, it comes across as shallow and halting at times :x , but I don't think that's necessarily a result of looking at it in the context of the epic. The mother-son weepie scene, for example, would've been no more believable if it'd been "original".
Surely, it'd not have been! I didn't mean to say that the film failed (I am not sure if I'd say the film failed at first place, but it's really underwhelming for sure) because it looked at the source material "in the context of the epic." I was just challenging my own criticism by reasoning out why Mani might have gone intentionally overboard in many scenes in the film.

So to sit in judgement of the film on an absolute level, and say it doesn't go down well in light of the original, might just be a tad unfair. What say you??
Going down well in light of the original is a very tall order indeed. There have been good adaptations of Mahabharata though. Like Benegal's superb Kalyug.

[kannannn]

i think mani is defnitely below Mahendran and BR - when it comes to finer aspects of story telling.......but i think he is the most successful in giving commercial cinema with great aesthetic sense.........technology wise - he beats the *new* guys left-right, leave alone BR and Mahendran.......and the variety of themes - there too, he scores a point over the rest........

he has his own way of making movies - which is defintely not the most superior - but received well by people......
:notworthy: :notworthy: I will leave it here for you guys to discuss Mani and his movies :D .

[equanimus]

Let me clear the air here. I don't have a problem with movies that don't have a strong plot. In fact, I love films where the plot is just a device that helps the director unleash his philosophical musings. There is a thrill to such films. Mani doesn't make such movies, so I won't walk that road.
Kannan,
Apologies if there was a lot of air to be cleared in my "adhiga prasangi" capturing of your criticism. :) I didn't mean to ask if your criticism is on movies that don't have a strong plot at all. And, as you say, Mani hasn't made such movies either.

Unfortunately, Mani tries to dabble in both social and personal aspects of his characters' lives that more often than not, his real intentions are unclear.
That, in a gist, sums up what I was trying to say in that post of mine.

Kannan,
I think I see where you're coming from. Your criticism isn't really about the film's politics (and its "stance" about Guru) as much as the lack of it (politics). I suppose your complaint is rather that the film isn't engaging enough in showing the actual struggles that Guru faced, and the audience doesn't get to witness a real contest, and that it doesn't offer strong perspectives about Guru. This is one of the biggest criticisms Mani has faced for many of his films -- Dil Se, Iruvar, Kannathil Muthamittal etc.

Now, the film engaged me for sure, but it doesn't really delve into in great detail about Guru's struggle and the challenges he faces in his dizzying rise as an entrepreneur; there's also a liberal dose of other elements (love, personal life etc.) to the film. This again is one of the "hallmarks," (or a dull trait, based on how one sees it) of Mani Ratnam. As you've mentioned, this tendency "to touch upon the aspects at a surface level" can be seen in many of his films.


Non-judgementality is the last thing I expect from a movie-maker. A movie must have a perspective, whatever the subject, otherwise it just becomes a dramatization of events (that's exactly how I view Guru - Mani's odd support for the character notwithstanding). Impartial analysis should be left to documentary makers.
Well, I very much consider it a merit. When the camera is not judgmental on the characters. Not that it's one of the first things I expect from filmmakers (after all, what's more judgemental than expecting that films must be non-judgemental?), but I cherish that quality in any form of storytelling. This doesn't mean at all that the film doesn't offer any perspectives. Telling a story without getting judgemental, isn't that by itself a perspective?

I may seem too critical of Mani, but it is only because he is often praised as THE best director we have. Take away that sobriquet, and I do agree that he has made some good entertainers.
Ah, now I feel like I should distance myself. I don't think of him as the "THE best director we have" at all. Also, it depends on who the "we" over there refers to. If we're talking about Tamil cinema, yes, I think he's one of the best filmmakers we have, but again not the best.

And, I wholeheartedly agree -- *nods aggressively* -- about Hazaaron Khwahishein Aisi! Now, that's a wonderful, wonderful film, and the best film of 2005 (among what I've watched, of course) to my mind. Here are my notes (http://movielane.blogspot.com/2005/04/hazaaron-khwahishen-aisi-two-thumbs-up.html) on the film that I wrote back in 2005.

[kannannn]

Apologies if there was a lot of air to be cleared in my "adhiga prasangi" capturing of your criticism. :) I didn't mean to ask if your criticism is on movies that don't have a strong plot at all. And, as you say, Mani hasn't made such movies either.
It was probably my post that was ambiguous (as it happens so often these days). Glad to have it out of the way.. :)

Well, I very much consider it a merit. When the camera is not judgmental on the characters. Not that it's one of the first things I expect from filmmakers (after all, what's more judgemental than expecting that films must be non-judgemental?), but I cherish that quality in any form of storytelling. This doesn't mean at all that the film doesn't offer any perspectives. Telling a story without getting judgemental, isn't that by itself a perspective?
It is my view that any story told with a perspective turns out to be judgemental - eventually. Perhaps expectations are different on the subject.

And, I wholeheartedly agree -- *nods aggressively* -- about Hazaaron Khwahishein Aisi! Now, that's a wonderful, wonderful film, and the best film of 2005 (among what I've watched, of course) to my mind. Here are my notes (http://movielane.blogspot.com/2005/04/hazaaron-khwahishen-aisi-two-thumbs-up.html) on the film that I wrote back in 2005.
Excellent write up there. That's one movie I can't stop raving about. BTW, I was a member of Collective Chaos as well when I was in Bangalore until 2005. Shame they had to end it. Their mailing list is still active though, with some stimulating discussions from well-informed members.

[thilak4life]

This is what I like about Mani. :) I don't think he dabbles though. It appears so because, he isn't making a statement, or taking a stance in his narrative, lets the viewer to dissect the themes, motifs, and the nuances themselves.
Adhellam dhaan avar padangalil kidaiyadhu engiren :D

There are.. Some of 'em in this very thread, and there are lot more..



The non-judgmentality that he exhibits in his narrative is second to none.
Non-judgementality is the last thing I expect from a movie-maker. A movie must have a perspective, whatever the subject, otherwise it just becomes a dramatization of events (that's exactly how I view Guru - Mani's odd support for the character notwithstanding). Impartial analysis should be left to documentary makers.

But, it's one form of storytelling, a skill which for all its blandness on paper still captivates the viewer, I understand that you personally find it underwhelming. I think the aspects within or between his characters are very elementary, but it's subtle, and matter-of-fact with Mani's refinement or glossiness (depends on how you look at it). I also think there is no dramatization of events, he rather elucidates the events with some deft touches.



This is also to do with tolerance for the filmmaker's trope and trademarks to complement his style, in that respect, let me bring Tarantino (bohemian,) or Woody Allen (Neurotic.) Not to say that Mani or these filmmakers have no variety, but every filmmaker have their own personal style attached to different characterizations spread across their oeuvre.
Aaha, ore line'la Mani'ya Tarantino, Woody Allen kooda serthuttingale :D . Their trademark is not just the dialogues. It goes much beyond that. We will digress if we venture into that aspect.

I meant their style of filmmaking has their trademark handling of different characters. Of course, I know there is lot more to be discussed...


I may seem too critical of Mani, but it is only because he is often praised as THE best director we have. Take away that sobriquet, and I do agree that he has made some good entertainers

Kannannn, I accept the criticism, and his mainstream values to add to it, he has his share of flaws, but I generally find his finer qualities outdoing his flaws or shortcomings. For that matter, every other filmmaker has. I rate Kamal haasan, and Vishal baradawaj over Mani Ratnam, but Mani over the spread of two decades, still remains one of the best filmmakers in commercial cinema. I would be absolutely shaken if Mani's style of filmmaking was non-existent.

As for Mahendran, Balu Mahendra and Mani Ratnam, I prefer Mani, and I also prefer Mani to KB and Bharathiraja. This I say after some serious introspection. Enough Gushy talk for today :) But in general, I realize the general criticism, even I have my share of 'em. But with Mani, it's his personal vision of his films, so it's imperforate from what I see. He is confined to his own self-realization and, he has matured in time.

[thilak4life]

Equanimus,

The post on Guru is interesting as always, but I still don't feel convinced. The execution, acting, and the presentation as a whole was clobbering for Gurubhai. Anyway, I've had my share of criticism.

[thilak4life]

And, Sudhir's handling is impeccable in HKA. The denouement was surprisingly matter-of-fact and unapologetic for what it is, and the film glides along. The start was symbolic: the riots and slaughtering of men, only for the blood to be washed away at the brink of dawn..

[equanimus]

Thilak,
Yeah, I'm tired of writing about the film already! I'm not *that* fond of the film myself. :) I don't think it's a great film at all, I don't even think it's tightly crafted. But, I do think it's unfairly dismissed by critics and moviegoers (who take movies "seriously," whatever that means) as a film that glorifies Ambani. I remember reading a very well-written critique of the film that, nevertheless, ended with a note that J. R. D. Tata would serve as a much better example for today's youngsters and wannabe-entrepreneurs than Ambani. Now, that's like saying a film set in the times of "freedom struggle" is better off with a Veerapandiya Kattabomman than a Marudhanayagam as its protagonist.

[thilak4life]

I remember reading a very well-written critique of the film that, nevertheless, ended with a note that J. R. D. Tata would serve as a much better example for today's youngsters and wannabe-entrepreneurs than Ambani. Now, that's like saying a film set in the times of "freedom struggle" is better off with a Veerapandiya Kattabomman than a Marudhanayagam as its protagonist.

:lol: Nice Analogy.

[kamath]

Maniratnam is a director gone lucky. He has the best of technicians.

In his films, there is no script as such. He takes a contemporary person/episode & films it.

Egs : Guru, nayakan, bombay, roja, dil se

[MADDY]

Maniratnam is a director gone lucky. He has the best of technicians.

In his films, there is no script as such. He takes a contemporary person/episode & films it.

Egs : Guru, nayakan, bombay, roja, dil se

best of technicians?? he has maintained his sound quality - be it IR or ARR........Rajeev menon, santhosh sivan, P.C.Sriram, or anyone - his picture quality has always been great......

all the movies u mentioned, except for Guru, the movie surrounds the event and not the event itself.......compare it with other director's works which will be directly abt the even itself....

[P_R]

In his films, there is no script as such. He takes a contemporary person/episode & films it. :lol:

[Nerd]

Superb article:
http://www.behindwoods.com/tamil-movies-slide-shows/movie-1/mani-ratnam/mani-ratnam.html

[ajithfederer]

Kamal sir - a Mani contribution? :lol:

Superb article:
http://www.behindwoods.com/tamil-movies-slide-shows/movie-1/mani-ratnam/mani-ratnam.html

[Nerd]

[tscii:14f3e45843]The heading may be mis-leading but the innertext is so good that each and every word fits the bill 8-)

An acting legend whose fame stretches across the country, he started his career decades before his tryst with this director. But what makes their union an event of historical significance is that the film Nayagan changed the course of both their lives forever. Mani’s movies got greater recognition, Kamal started challenging himself more and his ever increasing appetite for variety became even greater. Not to mention the national award he received for his performance in this masterpiece.[/tscii:14f3e45843]

[MADDY]

super article.......Nayagan defintely changed Kamal's course of career......idhu marukka mudiyadha unmai..... 8-)

y did they leave out arvind swamy :cry:

[thilak4life]

Kamal got into his auteur work from '81. As the writer-producer-actor with SSR for RP. They had already done the film, "Sommokadidhi Sokokadidhi" two years earlier.

But he started making films with all his long time friends from. Sippy for "Saagar", Sujatha's script for "Vikram" (86?). He influenced KB to make way for his chaplin homage with Chaplin chellapa in "Punnagai mannan". Next up, produced his friend Santhana Bharathy with Sathyaraj for "Kadamai ganiyam katupadu"(87). Prathap pothan for "Vetri Vizha". "Nayagan" with Mani Ratnam in 87', Suresh krishna in 88', again with SSR in 88' for Pushpak. Crazy for "Apoorva Sahodarargal" in 89'.

If there were directors who were to shape Kamal, it was KB, and KV (although he is known to dominate when directing with both the legends). As per this theory, one could very well say, Balu mahendra and Bharathiraja were shaped by Kamal.

So, it's just that "Nayagan" is such a great film, that people claim Kamal redefined himself. He redefined all along from 79' to 87', in significant ways. In other words, if there was no "16 vayadhinile", "sigappu rojakkal", "Moondram pirai", "Salangai Oli", "Swathi muthyam", "Raja paarvai", "Varumayin Niram Sigappu", "Ek Duuje Ke Liye", and many more. Then perhaps Mani as a contributor is acceptable, otherwise it's just pretty stupid.. As usual BW makes an half-baked list.

As for the list, Rahman is the best contribution by Rathnam. Hands down!

By the by, his contribution on (re)shaping two other actors, one - the ever-so-dependable Revathy, and next, the man who would become a youth icon back then, Karthik. Giving their respective best for Rathnam in "Mouna Raagam". Ironically, both these actors were first introduced and mentored by Bharathiraja.

[selvakumar]

Her beauty put India on the world map when she won the Miss World title in 1994 and she was cast by Mani in his period drama Iruvar, her talent was noticed and she went places after that before things came a full circle. Her mentor Mani cast her again in his latest venture Guru opposite Abhishek, now her husband in real life.
:lol2:

[P_R]

If there were directors who were to shape Kamal, it was KB, and KV (although he is known to dominate when directing with both the legends). ............

So, it's just that "Nayagan" is such a great film, that people claim Kamal redefined himself. He redefined all along from 79' to 87', in significant ways. In other words, if there was no "16 vayadhinile", "sigappu rojakkal", "Moondram pirai", "Salangai Oli", "Swathi muthyam", "Raja paarvai", "Varumayin Niram Sigappu", "Ek Duuje Ke Liye", and many more, then perhaps Mani as a contributor is acceptable, otherwise it's just pretty stupid.. As usual BW makes an half-baked list. . Well said Thilak. :thumbsup:

[thilak4life]

[tscii:4288554858]PR, Watched "Blood brothers"? It's running in few theaters in USA.

Digression:

Digression
(Mani's protege) Siddarth is now making waves in Vishal barathwaj's "Blue brothers" (cinematography by Guillermo Navarro, who won an oscar for his brilliant work in Pan's laybrinth) Santhosh sivan's film "Prarambh" with Prabhu deva is said to be simply superb as well. These are part of quad-collage films “AIDS Jaago” (other direcotrs are Mira nair and Farhan akthar)

Siddarth's nuanced performance and Prabhu deva's instinctive performance are both praised by those who have seen the film. So, check it out..
VB on Siddarth: (http://www.freshnews.in/sivans-aids-jaago-film-better-than-mine-vishal-19322)

About “Blood Brothers”, he said: “It’s quite a multi-starrer. It has Siddharth (Tamil actor) in the lead. I think he’s too mature for his age. He’s so well-read and experienced so much of the world cinema. I’d love to work with him again. My film also stars Ayesha Takia, Pavan Malhotra and Pankaj Kapur in a small role. Can you imagine how difficult it was to accommodate them in a film of 15-20 minutes?”

End digression.[/tscii:4288554858]

[P_R]

12 minute film ?
So I am not sure if it is likely get a wide screening. Waiting for my youtube samaritan to come along.

[P_R]

Watching it (http://www.indiafm.com/broadband/video/Special-Features/ZogyBB60/3/Vishal-Bharadwaj-s-Blood-Brothers.html)

[Sanjeevi]

Kamal sir - a Mani contribution? :lol:

Superb article:
http://www.behindwoods.com/tamil-movies-slide-shows/movie-1/mani-ratnam/mani-ratnam.html

:banghead:

they could have added Mohanlal, Mamooty, Nag, Rajini and IR in the list :lol:

[thilak4life]

[tscii:1cfe12d268]PR, Watched "Blood brothers"? It's running in few theaters in USA.

Digression:

(Mani's protege) Siddarth is now making waves in Vishal barathwaj's "Blue brothers" (cinematography by Guillermo Navarro, who won an oscar for his brilliant work in Pan's laybrinth) Santhosh sivan's film "Prarambh" with Prabhu deva is said to be simply superb as well. These are part of quad-collage films “AIDS Jaago” (other direcotrs are Mira nair and Farhan akthar)

Siddarth's nuanced performance and Prabhu deva's instinctive performance are both praised by those who have seen the film. So, check it out..
VB on Siddarth: (http://www.freshnews.in/sivans-aids-jaago-film-better-than-mine-vishal-19322)

About “Blood Brothers”, he said: “It’s quite a multi-starrer. It has Siddharth (Tamil actor) in the lead. I think he’s too mature for his age. He’s so well-read and experienced so much of the world cinema. I’d love to work with him again. My film also stars Ayesha Takia, Pavan Malhotra and Pankaj Kapur in a small role. Can you imagine how difficult it was to accommodate them in a film of 15-20 minutes?”

End digression.[/tscii:1cfe12d268]

[thilak4life]

Watching it (http://www.indiafm.com/broadband/video/Special-Features/ZogyBB60/3/Vishal-Bharadwaj-s-Blood-Brothers.html)

Let us know what you think of it...

[rajasaranam]

[tscii:b44d912ea0]The heading may be mis-leading but the innertext is so good that each and every word fits the bill 8-)

An acting legend whose fame stretches across the country, he started his career decades before his tryst with this director. But what makes their union an event of historical significance is that the film Nayagan changed the course of both their lives forever. Mani’s movies got greater recognition, Kamal started challenging himself more and his ever increasing appetite for variety became even greater. Not to mention the national award he received for his performance in this masterpiece.[/tscii:b44d912ea0]

Aahaa naan ithathaan konja naalaikku munnadi 'ORN' Thread'la solli threada ranagalamaakkittom. Innorru Vaattiyaa :shock:

[ajithfederer]

Spot on :thumbsup:

Kamal got into his auteur work from '81. As the writer-producer-actor with SSR for RP. They had already done the film, "Sommokadidhi Sokokadidhi" two years earlier.

But he started making films with all his long time friends from. Sippy for "Saagar", Sujatha's script for "Vikram" (86?). He influenced KB to make way for his chaplin homage with Chaplin chellapa in "Punnagai mannan". Next up, produced his friend Santhana Bharathy with Sathyaraj for "Kadamai ganiyam katupadu"(87). Prathap pothan for "Vetri Vizha". "Nayagan" with Mani Ratnam in 87', Suresh krishna in 88', again with SSR in 88' for Pushpak. Crazy for "Apoorva Sahodarargal" in 89'.

If there were directors who were to shape Kamal, it was KB, and KV (although he is known to dominate when directing with both the legends). As per this theory, one could very well say, Balu mahendra and Bharathiraja were shaped by Kamal.

So, it's just that "Nayagan" is such a great film, that people claim Kamal redefined himself. He redefined all along from 79' to 87', in significant ways. In other words, if there was no "16 vayadhinile", "sigappu rojakkal", "Moondram pirai", "Salangai Oli", "Swathi muthyam", "Raja paarvai", "Varumayin Niram Sigappu", "Ek Duuje Ke Liye", and many more. Then perhaps Mani as a contributor is acceptable, otherwise it's just pretty stupid.. As usual BW makes an half-baked list.

As for the list, Rahman is the best contribution by Rathnam. Hands down!

By the by, his contribution on (re)shaping two other actors, one - the ever-so-dependable Revathy, and next, the man who would become a youth icon back then, Karthik. Giving their respective best for Rathnam in "Mouna Raagam". Ironically, both these actors were first introduced and mentored by Bharathiraja.

[ajithfederer]

:rotfl2: :rotfl:


Kamal sir - a Mani contribution? :lol:

Superb article:
http://www.behindwoods.com/tamil-movies-slide-shows/movie-1/mani-ratnam/mani-ratnam.html

:banghead:

they could have added Mohanlal, Mamooty, Nag, Rajini and IR in the list :lol:

[MADDY]

Mani and ARR are like Man and money, respectively..... :wink:

apart from kamal in that list, all others are arguably mani's products only......ash no doubts - is a mani product, how many ever ":lol2: " icons we get.....

[selvakumar]

Mani and ARR are like Man and money, respectively..... :wink:

apart from kamal in that list, all others are arguably mani's products only......ash no doubts - is a mani product, how many ever ":lol2: " icons we get.....
I was not questioning on that. The reason why I laughed was - Even after acting in Iruvar, she was criticised for looking like a DOLL on screen. But BW's claims are :lol: Correct me if I am wrong. Mani might have given her a debut in one of his *good* films (though we share a diff of opinion on the film :wink: ).


her talent was noticed and she went places after that before things came a full circle
I am 100% sure that you will agree with me on this :wink: Even after Iruvar, she was criticized and I am still clueless on how she became successful in Bollywood :shaking: :rotfl:

and In GURU, she was good :)

[thilak4life]

She looked like a "Doll" in Iruvar, and the role was structured like that, but in her other (in many ways "opposite") role (as Kalpana), she was really obscure that she ranges from being innocent to manipulative to even solicit! But I agree with Selva that this film hardly elevated her, she was always treated as a show pony, before SLB's films and "Taal". Personally, I find her more digestable in her tamil films (Iruvar and KK) than in her hindi films (exceptions like Guru, Raincoat happen) From JA's trailer, Ash looks vibrant and fresh, which is a good thing!

[thilak4life]

Also try catching her bengali film, "Antar mahal". Ghosh knows to extract a good performance..

[equanimus]

Also try catching her bengali film, "Antar mahal". Ghosh knows to extract a good performance..
You mean 'Chokher Bali'. I haven't seen it though. But, 'Antar Mahal' is a superb watch.

[thilak4life]

Also try catching her bengali film, "Antar mahal". Ghosh knows to extract a good performance..
You mean 'Chokher Bali'. I haven't seen it though. But, 'Antar Mahal' is a superb watch.
Yeah "Chokher Bali", "Antar mahal" came later, and yeah, it has no Ash.

[MADDY]

so, kamal and ash out of the list........next--> madhavan was pretty famous as soon as ghar jamai and Sea hawks serials came in 90's.....he was a heartthrob by then.......he was very popular........so, he just benefitted from AP a bit and cant call him a maniratnam product........also, its kamal who has given him excellent roles like A.Ars and samayakkara maama :clap: ........so madhavan is not a maniratnam product :D

preity zinta's first movie was soldier and not Dil se as ppl. think.....so she is also out of the list :D

Abhishek bachan acted in 10 odd movies b4 doing Yuva.....how can he be in the list :D

his assistant directors are so waste that - they are not fit to be considered a contribution :D ....his protegees - manoj was introduced by BR, Sidarth was famous after Rangdebasanti, and Karthi is a paruthiveeran boy - they cant be MR's credits
:D

a.r.rahman too, got a break in roja but he really became famous after Gentleman - chikku bkku rayile song.......he became a household name after muqabla song........he bcame a national favorite after rangeela......his international fame was due to ALW...... :D

Mani hasnt contributed much - let him better get back to drawing board.... :lol:

[Thirumaran]

Mani hasnt contributed much - let him better get back to drawing board....

:notworthy:

MR kitta kaetu paarunga, Ithai thaan solluvaar, u reflect MR :lol2:

[MADDY]

Mani hasnt contributed much - let him better get back to drawing board....

:notworthy:

MR kitta kaetu paarunga, Ithai thaan solluvaar, u reflect MR :lol2:

:notworthy:

[thilak4life]

Maddy don't over react. :)

[Jyothsna]

Ilayaraja , Rahman,Ravi.k.chandran,p.c ivangaloda best nu partha, athu manirathnam padama than irukum.
Avar introduce panna technicians n actors parthale avoroda taste theriyum.i think hs best contributions are A.R.R n Madhavan.Avar padatha parkum pothu sila thavaruhal therinja kuda marupadi marupadi pakanum nu thonum.

[Thirumaran]

BTW what is there in the article. Can someone post the article :roll:

[thilak4life]

An interesting article with an interesting parallel:

http://passionforcinema.com/anjali-mockingbird/

P.S: I didn't like Anjali all that much. To me, it's out of Mani's elite league..

[crajkumar_be]

Thilak,
avatar super as usual! edhula varradhu idhu? conpees

[thilak4life]

Thilak,
avatar super as usual! edhula varradhu idhu? conpees

Pesum padam Just when Kamal and Amala exchange that (superb) romantic glances, before Kamal calls the other end, and kisses through the phone to her mom, and gets some music :rotfl:

[equanimus]

I quite disagree with your point about "signature naivete" actually. Mani Ratnam admirably corrects some of his past "sloppiness" in Roja and Bombay. I don't mean to say he had captured the background (Mani Ratnam's God is in the lack of details, you see) of the terrorists extremely well or in great detail, but the portrayal of "ideology" is real, vicious and unrelenting.
Hmmm you are quite right. I was laughing at he's-so-brave-he-should-be-on-of-us-scene. It doesn't even look like a joke by the Kitti-voiced terrorist.
It is definitely better (deeper ?) than Roja,Bombay. I am tempted to say he was getting better but the fingernails on the board effect of "munnERiya naadugaL yudhdhaththai niRuththittaanga" stops me.
Yes, I do agree that line from the terrorist is inexplicable. (Is he pointing out to Amar that the latter is no different from him in showing "resistance"? After all, Amar is also asking them to "join India.") But, his retorts at Amar's questions are well handled. Like when Amar expresses his surprise that the leader looks like "us." The viewpoints expressed by both sides are a tad simplistic indeed, but that's fitting. Amar is an AIR reporter who wants to find out how people of India feel about 50 years of independence, but is hardly able to "see" those people of India.



The characters don't merely exist as symbols, but with all shades and idiosoyncrasies. In other words, the narrative doesn't play to the allegory, the allegory is buried in the narrative and the film plays out just as wonderfully, with the same intensity, even if viewed purely as a love story. I am not sure I got this. Can you elaborate, perhaps in the MR thread.
I am of the basic opinion that MR is all surface - nice shiny beautifully done surface - but there-endeth-the-story. You - as always - seem to see a whole lot more. It would be great to hear that.
You're being too kind, of course. I was recalling how Amar, a Delhi-based ("central Indian") male (fittingly, he works for All India Radio, Delhi), falls in love with, and chases a mysterious, inaccessible female whom he meets in one of those "marginal" states. SRK plays an enthusiastic AIR reporter who's thrown in a world he just doesn't understand. He's often predisposed to be make light of many of the life-altering everyday realities of that place. This merges seamlessly with the feminist narrative of a "ain't-I-cool" romantic man's relentless pursuit of a quietly mysterious woman, a "femme fatale" who has other things on her mind. He teases her, chases her, the sexual tension is there right from the beginning. But, why is she a femme fatale? He says, he isn't able to "understand" her how much ever hard he "tries." But, apart from asking for her hand "like a man" unceasingly, what does he do to "access" her? These feminist overtones reflect the undertones of "resistance" to the "national" hegemony we see in the film. Meghna might be in love with Amar, but she has to fight that, fight him even, if she wants to retain her own self. The denouement of the feminist narrative is disturbingly cynical. Which also brings the "national" narrative to an abrupt end leaving several questions unresolved.

Philip Lutgendorf's review of the film (http://www.uiowa.edu/~incinema/dilse.html) is an illuminating read in that it discusses about some of the buried motifs of the film.

[P_R]

Beautiful post equanimus :thumbsup:
Great link as well. For some reason I am reluctant to immerse myself in the search for subtexts in Maniratnam films. Cigar is a cigar etc.

But I I particularly enjoyed the one about the way in SRK's persona was used to present the male/nationalist patronizing love. I had never thought of it that way.


For instance, I would never think of any allegory nationalist or otherwise that would explain Maniratnam's ending. That mutually assured destruction is the fate ? That exposing the fringe for what they are will be taken as violation of rights in the eyes of justice ? (Oops my right wing slip shows !)

The ending, to me, it is incredibly attractive as the only possible end in the Amar-Meghna love story. It was just not meant to be but that's the way it happens.

The explanatory drawl of Srinivas's ("indha kaadhalil maRNam dhaan.....") is typical MR. :mad: EngaLai konjam nambunga saar. Gavanamaa padam paarppOm.

[equanimus]

But I I particularly enjoyed the one about the way in SRK's persona was used to present the male/nationalist patronizing love. I had never thought of it that way.
SRK's character sketch clearly borrows heavily from his popular onscreen persona. What is striking is how cold and inaccessible Manisha remains throughout the film, which leads to SRK's frustration. (That doesn't stop him from agreeing to an alliance with Preity Zinta, however.) That's why, I think, the feminist overtones are strong in the film.


For instance, I would never think of any allegory nationalist or otherwise that would explain Maniratnam's ending. That mutually assured destruction is the fate ? That exposing the fringe for what they are will be taken as violation of rights in the eyes of justice ? (Oops my right wing slip shows !)
Prabhu Ram,
As I've already admitted, the denouement does bring the "national" allegory to a very abrupt end, which leaves several questions unanswered. As if the director has a marked indifference to it. But, the juxtaposition of the (male-female) love story with a "national" story, I think, is potently constructed. (And, then, there are some little things. Like why Preity Zinta is specifically shown to be hailing from Kerala, and not some generic "Hindi-speaking state" like Bombay or Delhi.) I think it'd be fair to call the denouement in the wake of the "national" narrative, a "creative failure."

[MADDY]

As I've already admitted, the denouement does bring the "national" allegory to a very abrupt end, which leaves several questions unanswered. As if the director has a marked indifference to it.But, the juxtaposition of the (male-female) love story with a "national" story, I think, is potently constructed. (And, then, there are some little things. Like why Preity Zinta is specifically shown to be hailing from Kerala, and not some generic "Hindi-speaking state" like Bombay or Delhi.) I think it'd be fair to call the denouement in the wake of the "national" narrative, a "creative failure."

which is why the film worked for me :D .......i could never view it as a complete obsessive love story standalone or as a movie having interesting comments on nation's status, on the other hand......it was the juxtaposition of both the themes which was mesmerising, compels me into viewing it multiple times.......

and i love the way SRK's character was built......that naivety stays throughout the film......right from his over-the-board compering for a normal AIR show to chasing a unknown girl into deep, interiors of India....then in the second half when manisha narrates her past, he just shrugs off in a "what-can-we-do-now" manner........to being completely oblivious of his marriage arrangements, i think it was superb....

from equa's link :

further heightening the overall sense of dis-location, and suggesting the impossibility of realizing romantic fantasy in the midst of oppressive contemporary realities

noothula oru comment.......throughout the film, theres a sense of dis-location..........

[MADDY]

The explanatory drawl of Srinivas's ("indha kaadhalil maRNam dhaan.....") is typical MR. :mad: EngaLai konjam nambunga saar. Gavanamaa padam paarppOm.

:rotfl: in hindi it comes as - mujhe maut ki godh mein sone do.........which does sound a more personal comment than a general comment on love.......

[Vivasaayi]

the romance between mohanlal and aishwarya rai in inruvar is very underrated

my most favourite among manis movies...so beautiful

[kannannn]

These feminist overtones reflect the undertones of "resistance" to the "national" hegemony we see in the film. Meghna might be in love with Amar, but she has to fight that, fight him even, if she wants to retain her own self. The denouement of the feminist narrative is disturbingly cynical. Which also brings the "national" narrative to an abrupt end leaving several questions unresolved.

I may sound like a chronic critic, but I don't quite understand. Could Manisha's character have been any different? Or for that matter Shah Rukh's? I think the bottom line is the portrayal of love between a rebel and a conformist. The same parallel, that of hegemony and resistance, could have been interpreted in any other setting, IMO. Coming to think of it, would role reversals have worked? I don't think so.

As for bringing the "national" narrative to an abrupt end, isn't that his wont? Has MR ever been clear about "national" issues in any of his movies?

All that said, I liked 'Dil Se'. This, along with 'Kabhi Haan Kabhi Naa' and 'Maya Memsaab' will remain my favourite Shah Rukh movies.

[equanimus]

These feminist overtones reflect the undertones of "resistance" to the "national" hegemony we see in the film. Meghna might be in love with Amar, but she has to fight that, fight him even, if she wants to retain her own self. The denouement of the feminist narrative is disturbingly cynical. Which also brings the "national" narrative to an abrupt end leaving several questions unresolved.

I may sound like a chronic critic, but I don't quite understand. Could Manisha's character have been any different? Or for that matter Shah Rukh's? I think the bottom line is the portrayal of love between a rebel and a conformist. The same parallel, that of hegemony and resistance, could have been interpreted in any other setting, IMO. Coming to think of it, would role reversals have worked? I don't think so.
Kannan,
Isn't that the point? That a role reversal wouldn't have worked? Also, I don't quite see this as a love story of a rebel and a conformist. I think that far simplifies the crux of the story that Mani constructs.


As for bringing the "national" narrative to an abrupt end, isn't that his wont? Has MR ever been clear about "national" issues in any of his movies?
Your point is well taken. In my reading of the political films of Mani Ratnam, he raises all relevant "questions," and betrays a stubborn diffidence to offer a coherent "resolution," or be fully "clear" as you put it. This often works fine for me, at times even intrigues me. Moreoever, the films in which he does offer some sort of "resolution" (Roja, Bombay), it's not only abrupt, but also extremely weak. (In Roja though, that should be the last of one's concerns. There are bigger problems there, like the unbridled celebration of pop-nationalism.)

P.S.:- When I say "coherent resolution," I don't use it to suggest a simplistic resolution or something to that effect, but an overall relevant "meaning" out of all that we see in the film.

[VENKIRAJA]

the romance between mohanlal and aishwarya rai in inruvar is very underrated

my most favourite among manis movies...so beautiful

It is difficult to explain such a portrayal,supposedly between Late x and present y.I would rate the acting of Aishwarya rai in the scene after she awaits ML in Thiruthani(or some temple)as her best ever.She looked very very pretty too....girls are lovely in a saree....! :P
But the "macham" scene was a bit vulgar IMO.Rest were okay...the voice of her was a bit defying also,something which made me feel "anniyam" after some of her later movies.(Trisha's dubbing voice is the only convincing match to me)The romance between Aish no 1 and Lal is simply superb...especially those scenes in between the 'Narumugaiye' song.I didn't like the way MR put an end to Aish.

[kannannn]

Kannan,
Isn't that the point? That a role reversal wouldn't have worked? Also, I don't quite see this as a love story of a rebel and a conformist. I think that far simplifies the crux of the story that Mani constructs.

This is going to sound like a circular argument, but the characterisations in any other way couldn't have worked. So, my point is, there is nothing extraordinary in that.


In my reading of the political films of Mani Ratnam, he raises all relevant "questions," and betrays a stubborn diffidence to offer a coherent "resolution," or be fully "clear" as you put it.
'Diffidence' - ellam illai. I don't think he understands the issues clearly :D .

Anyway, this is turning out to be another endless debate. As is the motto of the Hub, 'let us agree to disagree' :D .

[thilak4life]

the romance between mohanlal and aishwarya rai in inruvar is very underrated

my most favourite among manis movies...so beautiful

More to do with Ash's freshness in this film(this being her debut) and Mohanlal's gracefulness me thinks. They pulled it off. For a change, we don't have to wince.

[thilak4life]

She looked very very pretty too.

I second this about Ais-u of the time...

[equanimus]

In my reading of the political films of Mani Ratnam, he raises all relevant "questions," and betrays a stubborn diffidence to offer a coherent "resolution," or be fully "clear" as you put it.
'Diffidence' - ellam illai. I don't think he understands the issues clearly :D .
That's what I meant, actually. That he's diffident -- lacking confidence in his ability to understand the issue. It's like, he's admitting that he's not totally clear about the issues himself.

[rangan_08]

One thing I noticed about Mani's films is that inspite of being a trend setter, most sought-after director etc., he has not shot even a single song sequence in a foreign location unless and otherwise the story demands it (a song in Russia in Guru). Is it a plus or a minus ??? I dont know.

Another general point I woul like to share here is, when a creator makes a movie based on historic events, audience simply ignore it in the BO if it is based on the darker sides of history. A classic example I would say is Hey Ram (Hindu-Muslim riots). Either the audience feel that they have a moral responsibility or they must be ashamed. You can probably add Schindler's List also.

On the other hand, if glorious parts of history is made into a film it will get tremendous response eg. Veerapandia Kattabomman.

[Vivasaayi]

One thing I noticed about Mani's films is that inspite of being a trend setter, most sought-after director etc., he has not shot even a single song sequence in a foreign location unless and otherwise the story demands it (a song in Russia in Guru). Is it a plus or a minus ??? I dont know.

Another general point I woul like to share here is, when a creator makes a movie based on historic events, audience simply ignore it in the BO if it is based on the darker sides of history. A classic example I would say is Hey Ram (Hindu-Muslim riots). Either the audience feel that they have a moral responsibility or they must be ashamed. You can probably add Schindler's List also.

On the other hand, if glorious parts of history is made into a film it will get tremendous response eg. Veerapandia Kattabomman.

they love heroism rangan...simple.

they wanna see their forefathers as heroes.

[kannannn]

In my reading of the political films of Mani Ratnam, he raises all relevant "questions," and betrays a stubborn diffidence to offer a coherent "resolution," or be fully "clear" as you put it.
'Diffidence' - ellam illai. I don't think he understands the issues clearly :D .
That's what I meant, actually. That he's diffident -- lacking confidence in his ability to understand the issue. It's like, he's admitting that he's not totally clear about the issues himself.

Oh ho! Wrong interpretation!! I thought you meant he was too shy to put forth his solution. Yes, it does make sense :).

[MADDY]

caught glimpses of Bombay on KTV (seems to be manirtnam vaaram :lol:)

romance scenes in the begining, amidst backdrop of beautiful natural scenary is so fresh and leaves us breathless........manirtnam has to be the most chivalrous director in history of tamil films...........its always the male protaganist who goes tirelessly after the female protaganist and not the other way around........i cant remember any instance where the female lead takes the lead in love in Mani's movies except for simran in kannathil muthamittal where she expresses her love indirectly to madhavan and "second" aish's flirting with mohanlal character in iruvar.....amala after prabhu in agni natchithram and radha after mike mohan in idhaya kovil can be passed as abberations in this trend........its such a refreshing change from other greats like KB who always has 1000+ females lined up after his male protaganist.......and even today's directors like aameer make movies that have female protaganists who confess undying love for male characters........ :D .....

another scene that caught my eye was when the marriage registrar office peon asks the couple "aap log madhrasi hai kya"? manisha retorts back smiling "athaadi, naa idha varaikkum madras paathhadhe illa".........it is a dig at general mumbaiites view that "madras = TN+AP+Kerala+Karanataka" :lol: .........it was appreciated in chak de too which came 13 yrs after Bombay......

the discomfort the house owner's wife shows on knowing Manisha is a muslim is a very realistic description of mumbai's conservative marathi people.........there are many areas in mumbai, where muslims are not given houses for rent....i know that for a fact.. :oops: .....i think mani has used his short life in mumbai to a great extent in this movie........ :D

Maniratnam - Indhiyavin kurusowa :lol2:

[crajkumar_be]

simran in kannathil muthamittal where she expresses her love indirectly to madhavan and "second" aish's flirting with mohanlal character in iruvar.....
rendu series of scenes-ume abarama irukkum.. 8-)

[P_R]

.....1000+ females lined up after his male protaganist....... So far removed from the ground realities, isn't it ? :-)

[Vivasaayi]

aishwarya rai showed her potential in romance and rama right in her first movie...adhukapuram onnum perusa...mmm

she gave any good performances in hindi?

[MADDY]

she gave any good performances in hindi?

Guru :D .....


So far removed from the ground realities, isn't it ?

aaama aaamaa :lol: .........azhagan padam ellam paathhutu, veetla irukkura ENO, gelusil ellam dhwamsam :oops: :cry:

[Vivasaayi]

caught glimpses of Bombay on KTV (seems to be manirtnam vaaram :lol:)


Maniratnam - Indhiyavin kurusowa :lol2:

:oops:

oru difference...

ulagam fulla kurasawa va copy adichainga

mani visayathula ulta

[MADDY]

simran in kannathil muthamittal where she expresses her love indirectly to madhavan and "second" aish's flirting with mohanlal character in iruvar.....
rendu series of scenes-ume abarama irukkum.. 8-)

8-)

[jaiganes]

As I've already admitted, the denouement does bring the "national" allegory to a very abrupt end, which leaves several questions unanswered. As if the director has a marked indifference to it.But, the juxtaposition of the (male-female) love story with a "national" story, I think, is potently constructed. (And, then, there are some little things. Like why Preity Zinta is specifically shown to be hailing from Kerala, and not some generic "Hindi-speaking state" like Bombay or Delhi.) I think it'd be fair to call the denouement in the wake of the "national" narrative, a "creative failure."

which is why the film worked for me :D .......i could never view it as a complete obsessive love story standalone or as a movie having interesting comments on nation's status, on the other hand......it was the juxtaposition of both the themes which was mesmerising, compels me into viewing it multiple times.......

and i love the way SRK's character was built......that naivety stays throughout the film......right from his over-the-board compering for a normal AIR show to chasing a unknown girl into deep, interiors of India....then in the second half when manisha narrates her past, he just shrugs off in a "what-can-we-do-now" manner........to being completely oblivious of his marriage arrangements, i think it was superb....

from equa's link :

further heightening the overall sense of dis-location, and suggesting the impossibility of realizing romantic fantasy in the midst of oppressive contemporary realities

noothula oru comment.......throughout the film, theres a sense of dis-location..........

DilSe truly India ki Dil Se.
Everything in the movie was Superlative, except the audience.

[MADDY]

DilSe truly India ki Dil Se.
Everything in the movie was Superlative, except the audience.

:shock: :shock:

sonnadhu nee dhaana :roll: sol sol :lol:

[A.ANAND]

rajini,kamal movie release ana eppadi avannnga fans ellam 'uyira viduvanggalo'athu mathirthan ennaku maniratnam movie :D
antha alavukku naan 'mani paithiyam' :lol:

avaru padam release date nerunnga-nerunnga ore irukkum santhosama irukkum.athey nerathila manasu thik..thik-kunnu adikkum[padam flop agakudathunnu]release annaikku office-la off. :D movie pattutu veliya vara audiance reaction-na paapen,seriuse-sa vanthangga ore happy!polabikiitu vantha ... :(

movie flop-po illa hit-to,eppadiyum 1week athey sinthanaithan.eppadiyum4 show pattudiven .anthalavukku avroda movie-inna oru veri :lol: guru varaikkum poikittu irukku.he is my 'chellam' :lol:imo tamil cinema -ve avarukku nandri kadan patti rukku :2thumbsup: nandri ketta tamilan oru silar avara ennma kindal pannarnunnga!

[jaiganes]

DilSe truly India ki Dil Se.
Everything in the movie was Superlative, except the audience.

:shock: :shock:

sonnadhu nee dhaana :roll: sol sol :lol:

Yes!!
I have reservations on his Bombay and Iruvar (probably due to the political chopping of so many dialogues and scenes). But Dil Se is a unique movie where he brings in so much of "intensity" and the Delhi backdrop usage, it was simply too good. Sore points were there- but overall it was sincere and offcourse thecreative minds in the project were at their best - Santhosh Sivan, ARR, Gulzar and Mani.
The 'Fatal' attraction aspect never reached the audience(so did the symbolism aspect) as the discussions in the previous pages have aptly brought out.

[R.Latha]

மணிரத்னம் இந்தியிலும், தமிழிலும் ஒருசேர எடுக்கவிருக்கும் படத்தில், இந்தியில் அபி ஷேக்பச்சன் - ஐஸ்வர்யாராய் நடிக்க, தமிழில் விக்ரம் - ஐஸ்வர்யாராய் ஜோடியாகி இருக் கிறார்கள்.

ஷங்கரின் `ரோபோ' படத்துக்கு முன்பே ஐஸ்வர்யாராய் விக் ரமுக்கு ஜோடியாக நடிக்கத் தொடங்கி விடுவதால், ஷங்கர் படத்தில் ஐஸ்வர்யாராய் நடி�பாரா என்ற கேள்வி தொடர்ந்து கொ�டிருக்கிறது. ஷங்கர் ஐஸ்வர்யாராயிடம் 2 வருஷமாக மொத்த கால்ஷீட் கேட்டதால் ஐஸ்வர்யா தர�பில் தயக்கம் �டித்த தாகவும் தகவல். அதே நேரம் மணிரத்னம் கேட்டதும், கேட்ட தேதிகளை கொடுத்துவிட்டார், ஐஸ்வர்யாராய்.

தமிழில் விக்ரம் - ஐஸ்வர்யாராய் ஜோடி சேரும் மணிரத்னம் படம் செ�டம்பர் 27-ந் தேதி தொடங்குகிறது. இந்த� படத்தில் விக்ரம் நெல்லைத் தமிழில் பேச வே�டியிரு�பதால் அதற்காக `நெல்லைத் தமிழ்' தெரிந்த ஒருவரை பயிற்சிக்காக விக்ரமிடம் அனு�பி வைத்திருக்கிறார், மணிரத்னம்.

[Srimannarayanan]

மணிரத்னம் இந்தியிலும், தமிழிலும் ஒருசேர எடுக்கவிருக்கும் படத்தில், இந்தியில் அபி ஷேக்பச்சன் - ஐஸ்வர்யாராய் நடிக்க, தமிழில் விக்ரம் - ஐஸ்வர்யாராய் ஜோடியாகி இருக் கிறார்கள்.

ஷங்கரின் `ரோபோ' படத்துக்கு முன்பே ஐஸ்வர்யாராய் விக் ரமுக்கு ஜோடியாக நடிக்கத் தொடங்கி விடுவதால், ஷங்கர் படத்தில் ஐஸ்வர்யாராய் நடி�பாரா என்ற கேள்வி தொடர்ந்து கொ�டிருக்கிறது. ஷங்கர் ஐஸ்வர்யாராயிடம் 2 வருஷமாக மொத்த கால்ஷீட் கேட்டதால் ஐஸ்வர்யா தர�பில் தயக்கம் �டித்த தாகவும் தகவல். அதே நேரம் மணிரத்னம் கேட்டதும், கேட்ட தேதிகளை கொடுத்துவிட்டார், ஐஸ்வர்யாராய்.

தமிழில் விக்ரம் - ஐஸ்வர்யாராய் ஜோடி சேரும் மணிரத்னம் படம் செ�டம்பர் 27-ந் தேதி தொடங்குகிறது. இந்த� படத்தில் விக்ரம் நெல்லைத் தமிழில் பேச வே�டியிரு�பதால் அதற்காக `நெல்லைத் தமிழ்' தெரிந்த ஒருவரை பயிற்சிக்காக விக்ரமிடம் அனு�பி வைத்திருக்கிறார், மணிரத்னம்.

I heard vikram is out of the project now.

[Vivasaayi]

மணிரத்னம் இந்தியிலும், தமிழிலும் ஒருசேர எடுக்கவிருக்கும் படத்தில், இந்தியில் அபி ஷேக்பச்சன் - ஐஸ்வர்யாராய் நடிக்க, தமிழில் விக்ரம் - ஐஸ்வர்யாராய் ஜோடியாகி இருக் கிறார்கள்.

ஷங்கரின் `ரோபோ' படத்துக்கு முன்பே ஐஸ்வர்யாராய் விக் ரமுக்கு ஜோடியாக நடிக்கத் தொடங்கி விடுவதால், ஷங்கர் படத்தில் ஐஸ்வர்யாராய் நடி�பாரா என்ற கேள்வி தொடர்ந்து கொ�டிருக்கிறது. ஷங்கர் ஐஸ்வர்யாராயிடம் 2 வருஷமாக மொத்த கால்ஷீட் கேட்டதால் ஐஸ்வர்யா தர�பில் தயக்கம் �டித்த தாகவும் தகவல். அதே நேரம் மணிரத்னம் கேட்டதும், கேட்ட தேதிகளை கொடுத்துவிட்டார், ஐஸ்வர்யாராய்.

தமிழில் விக்ரம் - ஐஸ்வர்யாராய் ஜோடி சேரும் மணிரத்னம் படம் செ�டம்பர் 27-ந் தேதி தொடங்குகிறது. இந்த� படத்தில் விக்ரம் நெல்லைத் தமிழில் பேச வே�டியிரு�பதால் அதற்காக `நெல்லைத் தமிழ்' தெரிந்த ஒருவரை பயிற்சிக்காக விக்ரமிடம் அனு�பி வைத்திருக்கிறார், மணிரத்னம்.

mani sir shankar maadhiri 2 varusham padam eduka maataru...neat planning ...neat finish

[A.ANAND]

மணிரத்னம் இந்தியிலும், தமிழிலும் ஒருசேர எடுக்கவிருக்கும் படத்தில், இந்தியில் அபி ஷேக்பச்சன் - ஐஸ்வர்யாராய் நடிக்க, தமிழில் விக்ரம் - ஐஸ்வர்யாராய் ஜோடியாகி இருக் கிறார்கள்.

ஷங்கரின் `ரோபோ' படத்துக்கு முன்பே ஐஸ்வர்யாராய் விக் ரமுக்கு ஜோடியாக நடிக்கத் தொடங்கி விடுவதால், ஷங்கர் படத்தில் ஐஸ்வர்யாராய் நடி�பாரா என்ற கேள்வி தொடர்ந்து கொ�டிருக்கிறது. ஷங்கர் ஐஸ்வர்யாராயிடம் 2 வருஷமாக மொத்த கால்ஷீட் கேட்டதால் ஐஸ்வர்யா தர�பில் தயக்கம் �டித்த தாகவும் தகவல். அதே நேரம் மணிரத்னம் கேட்டதும், கேட்ட தேதிகளை கொடுத்துவிட்டார், ஐஸ்வர்யாராய்.

தமிழில் விக்ரம் - ஐஸ்வர்யாராய் ஜோடி சேரும் மணிரத்னம் படம் செ�டம்பர் 27-ந் தேதி தொடங்குகிறது. இந்த� படத்தில் விக்ரம் நெல்லைத் தமிழில் பேச வே�டியிரு�பதால் அதற்காக `நெல்லைத் தமிழ்' தெரிந்த ஒருவரை பயிற்சிக்காக விக்ரமிடம் அனு�பி வைத்திருக்கிறார், மணிரத்னம்.

mani sir shankar maadhiri 2 varusham padam eduka maataru...neat planning ...neat finish :yes:

[MADDY]

looks very weak nowadays.... :(

http://www.behindwoods.com/features/Gallery/tamil-movies-events/photos-5/jayamkondaan-audio/jayamkondaan-20.html

[raaja_rasigan]

looks very weak nowadays.... :(



what is his age, now?

[MADDY]

looks very weak nowadays.... :(



what is his age, now?

he is 1956 born , 52 yr old now :)

[A.ANAND]

looks very weak nowadays.... :(

http://www.behindwoods.com/features/Gallery/tamil-movies-events/photos-5/jayamkondaan-audio/jayamkondaan-20.html
avaru innum mappila mathiri 'jammu innu' irukkaru sir :lol: ,enna avaru hair-rukku mai adicha ellam sariayidum :D

[sakaLAKALAKAlaa Vallavar]

http://thatstamil.oneindia.in/movies/specials/2008/08/06-manirathnam-to-make-modern-ramayana-with-aish-abhishek.html


ரூ120 கோடி..மணியின் நவீன ராமாயணம்!

இந்தியாவின் மிகச்சிறந்த இயக்குநர்களில் ஒருவராகப் புகழப்படும் மணிரத்னம் தனது அடுத்த படத்தின் படத்துக்கு தயாராகிவிட்டார்.

தமிழ், தெலுங்கு மற்றும் இந்தி மொழிகளில் தயாராகும் இந்தப் படத்துக்கு இந்தியில் ராவண் (ராவணன்) எனத் தலைப்பு வைக்கப்பட்டுள்ளதாகத் தெரிகிறது.

தமிழ் மற்றும் தெலுங்குப் படங்களின் தலைப்புகளும் ராவணன் என்றே வைக்கப்படக்கூடும் எனக் கூறப்படுகிறது.

இந்தப் படம் ராமாயணக் கதையின் நவீன வடிவமாக இருக்கும் என்கிறார்கள் விவரமறிந்தவர்கள்.

ராமராக அபிஷேக் பச்சனும், அவர் மனைவி சீதையாக ஐஸ்வர்யா ராயும் நடிக்கிறார்களாம். முக்கிய வேடம் ஒன்றில் அமிதாப்பை நடிக்க வைக்கவும் முயன்று வருகிறார் மணிரத்னம்.

ராவணன் எனும் பவர்புல் வில்லன் பாத்திரத்தில் ஆதித்ய பஞ்சோலியும் அனுமானாக கோவிந்தாவும் நடிக்கவிருப்பதாகத் தகவல்கள் தெரிவிக்கின்றன.

இந்தப் படத்தின் தமிழ்ப் பதிப்பில் அபிஷேக் பச்சன், ஐஸ்வர்யா ராயுடன் விக்ரம் மற்றும் கார்த்திக் இருவரும் நடிக்கப் போவதாகக் கூறப்படுகிறது. இவர்களில் ராவணன் யார், அனுமான் யார் என்பது மட்டும் இன்னும் முடிவாகவில்லை.

இந்தப் படம் புராண ராமாயணம் கிடையாது. அதே நேரம் அந்தப் பாத்திரங்களை நினைவூட்டுகிற விதத்தில் திரைக்கதை உருவாக்கப்பட்டுள்ளதாக மெட்ராஸ் டாக்கீஸ் வட்டாரங்கள் தெரிவிக்கின்றன.

இந்தப் படத்தின் பட்ஜெட் கிட்டத்தட்ட ரஜினியின் ரோபோவுக்கு நிகராக இருக்குமாம். காரணம் மிகச் சமீபத்தில்தான் மணிரத்தனமும் அனில் அம்பானியின் ரிலையன்ஸ் நிறுவனமும் இந்தப் படம் தயாரிப்புக்கான ஒப்பந்தத்தில் கையெழுத்திட்டனர். அதன்படி ரூ.120 கோடி செலவில் பிரம்மாண்டமாக உருவாகிறது இந்தப் படம்.

ஏற்கெனவே, மகாபாரத்தைத் தழுவி அதன் நவீன வடிவமாக தளபதி படத்தை எடுத்தவர் மணிரத்னம் என்பது குறிப்பிடத்தக்கது.

உங்க ராமாயணத்துல 'சேது' வருமா மணி சார்!

[sakaLAKALAKAlaa Vallavar]

[tscii:196abe5915]http://sify.com/movies/tamil/fullstory.php?id=14734984


Mani makes more money!
By Moviebuzz | Wednesday, 06 August , 2008, 12:51


India's best known director Mani Ratnam and his Madras Talkies has signed a record Rs 120 crore deal with the Anil Ambani run Reliance Entertainment Big Picture, for his new untitled film in three languages- Hindi, Tamil and Telugu.

Mani sir as he is affectionately known in Kollywood has been quietly working on the script of this film, since the release of his super hit Guru in January 2007.

The Hindi version will feature Abhishek Bachchan- Aishwarya Rai and Govinda in a negative role. The Tamil and Telugu version will have Vikram doing Abhishek’s role while Aishwarya Rai will be the common heroine for all the three versions. It is going to be a tight rope walk for her as she has to juggle her dates with Shankar's Rajinikanth extravaganza 'Robot', during the same period.

And the role being done by Govinda would be essayed by Pritviraj, who actually started his career in Tamil in a villain's role in Kana Kandein. There are rumours that Karthik who last worked with Mani in Agninakshthram, will also be roped in to play an important role. Priya Mani too will be playing a role in the film which will start rolling in Karaikudi from September 10, and will also be shot in the forests of Madhya Pradesh.

Mani's all time favourite and his 'discovery' A.R Rahman will be composing songs for this film which has now become one of the hottest projects in the country. Ace cameraman Manikandan who is now shooting for Priyadarsan's Biloo Barber in Pollachi will be the cameraman.

Mani sir as usual was unavailable for comment and Reliance Entertainment Big Picture spokesman in Chennai too refused to talk about the deal.[/tscii:196abe5915]

[jaiganes]

[tscii:822d895e96]http://sify.com/movies/tamil/fullstory.php?id=14734984


Mani makes more money!
By Moviebuzz | Wednesday, 06 August , 2008, 12:51


India's best known director Mani Ratnam and his Madras Talkies has signed a record Rs 120 crore deal with the Anil Ambani run Reliance Entertainment Big Picture, for his new untitled film in three languages- Hindi, Tamil and Telugu.

Mani sir as he is affectionately known in Kollywood has been quietly working on the script of this film, since the release of his super hit Guru in January 2007.

The Hindi version will feature Abhishek Bachchan- Aishwarya Rai and Govinda in a negative role. The Tamil and Telugu version will have Vikram doing Abhishek’s role while Aishwarya Rai will be the common heroine for all the three versions. It is going to be a tight rope walk for her as she has to juggle her dates with Shankar's Rajinikanth extravaganza 'Robot', during the same period.

And the role being done by Govinda would be essayed by Pritviraj, who actually started his career in Tamil in a villain's role in Kana Kandein. There are rumours that Karthik who last worked with Mani in Agninakshthram, will also be roped in to play an important role. Priya Mani too will be playing a role in the film which will start rolling in Karaikudi from September 10, and will also be shot in the forests of Madhya Pradesh.

Mani's all time favourite and his 'discovery' A.R Rahman will be composing songs for this film which has now become one of the hottest projects in the country. Ace cameraman Manikandan who is now shooting for Priyadarsan's Biloo Barber in Pollachi will be the cameraman.

Mani sir as usual was unavailable for comment and Reliance Entertainment Big Picture spokesman in Chennai too refused to talk about the deal.[/tscii:822d895e96]

If this is true - my sincere condolences to Maniratnam fans...
Abishek - aishwarya - reliance indha nexuslendhu eppo velile varuvaar?
Amir Khan padam lajjo drop
Kamal udan adutha padamum drop
what is happening to money ratnam?

[A.ANAND]

[tscii:397e62aa12]http://sify.com/movies/tamil/fullstory.php?id=14734984


Mani makes more money!
By Moviebuzz | Wednesday, 06 August , 2008, 12:51


India's best known director Mani Ratnam and his Madras Talkies has signed a record Rs 120 crore deal with the Anil Ambani run Reliance Entertainment Big Picture, for his new untitled film in three languages- Hindi, Tamil and Telugu.

Mani sir as he is affectionately known in Kollywood has been quietly working on the script of this film, since the release of his super hit Guru in January 2007.

The Hindi version will feature Abhishek Bachchan- Aishwarya Rai and Govinda in a negative role. The Tamil and Telugu version will have Vikram doing Abhishek’s role while Aishwarya Rai will be the common heroine for all the three versions. It is going to be a tight rope walk for her as she has to juggle her dates with Shankar's Rajinikanth extravaganza 'Robot', during the same period.

And the role being done by Govinda would be essayed by Pritviraj, who actually started his career in Tamil in a villain's role in Kana Kandein. There are rumours that Karthik who last worked with Mani in Agninakshthram, will also be roped in to play an important role. Priya Mani too will be playing a role in the film which will start rolling in Karaikudi from September 10, and will also be shot in the forests of Madhya Pradesh.

Mani's all time favourite and his 'discovery' A.R Rahman will be composing songs for this film which has now become one of the hottest projects in the country. Ace cameraman Manikandan who is now shooting for Priyadarsan's Biloo Barber in Pollachi will be the cameraman.

Mani sir as usual was unavailable for comment and Reliance Entertainment Big Picture spokesman in Chennai too refused to talk about the deal.[/tscii:397e62aa12]

If this is true - my sincere condolences to Maniratnam fans...
Abishek - aishwarya - reliance indha nexuslendhu eppo velile varuvaar?
Amir Khan padam lajjo drop
Kamal udan adutha padamum drop
what is happening to money ratnam?

ithu ellam oru periya problem illa sir!dont worry :cool2:
avaru yyaru kuda pannarar enbathu mukkiyam illa!product eppadi varathu innuthan mukkiyam.avar padam pannrar endra news-se namakellam perum santhosam:D

[jaiganes]

I wish I could share your enthu.
After seeing Guru - I must say I am dampened by Mani's moves these days. If this news is any true, then it will be third movie with Abhishek who cannot act and there are loads of manoj bajpais, Amir Khans, KKs and Ranvir Shoreys out there in Bolly who are way better actors than abhi- no -shake bachan. Lesser spoken about Mrs Aish bachan's acting talents the better - not a company you should be in at the stage when your career is knocking on international fame.

[complicateur]

[tscii:99ef1d5d45]A rainy weekend prompted a viewing of Anjali. The downpour probably reminded me of the opening sequences. The usual suspects greatly enhance the re-view quotient of the movie. Shamili still brings that ever-familiar lump to ones throat. During every introduction scene for Anjali, the back of the frame, from where she enters, is invariably over-lit. Couple that with the translucent white gown she is perennially clad in and one is forced to believe that Mani and Madhu Ambat wanted to convince the audience that we were definitely viewing a cherub descending to earth. Raaja is his usual glorious self - equal parts poignant and playful in both the soundtrack as well as the BGM. The performances, particularly Revathi, Raghuvaran and the little child who plays Anu, are all excellent. If Revathi holds fort in the latter half during her sequences with Shamili, Raghuvaran is brilliant in his silent suffering in the initial stages. There are a couple of seconds where he shares screen space with Revathi, unable to answer her (rather justifiable) question after slapping his daughter, during which his eyes are brimming, not with tears but with pain. Serves to remind you that there is skill and then there is talent.

Anjali, as with most Mani saar films, is exceptionally well written and designed. There is great consistency in character description (the daughter has this little tik of repeating kaNNellAm thaNNi after saying someone is crying that repeats throughout the movie) and motivation. But there is one specific aspect that revealed itself to me during this viewing that actually enhanced my understanding of the charm this movie held for me as a child.

As a child, answering the telephone as quickly as possible came to be an unconditioned reflex for me. Even when most often the person at the other end would peremptorily request to speak to someone of more importance within the household because I was just a kid. In the world that Mani creates in Anjali however, an Assistant Commissioner of Police doesn’t think twice before informing Shekhar’s young son that his father’s life might be in danger because a ruffian baying for his blood has just been released on bail. There are no “just kids” in Anjali. They are accorded the respect of post-adolescents, if not full-fledged adults. They have their own tribe, initiation rituals and bonding patterns. The knee-jerk reaction to adversity (Arjun being confronted by an older kid when they walk in with the vegetables) is one of machismo, not the familiar run-and-hide-behind-authority or propriety. The kids take an active part in getting their pregnant mother to the hospital and are even allowed the freedom to speak out of turn and call adults out on their inadequacies. Mani’s biggest success was creating a world were children are afforded as much respect as their guardians and in doing so he was able to connect with the need of every child in the audience to be taken seriously.
[/tscii:99ef1d5d45]

[crajkumar_be]

Ilaiyaan is the hero of Anjali. It's been a long time since i watched it (loved it the first time i watched it as a sinna pulla). IMO, not one of Maniyaan's better works. It had artificiality written all over it

[complicateur]

crajkumar_be: Definitely not Mani's best work. Pre-Roja that would go to Mouna Ragam (IMO) and post-Roja to Iruvar. I just revisited the film and was trying to understand why I liked it so much when I first saw it.

[NOV]

Kannathil Muthamittal?

[VENKIRAJA]

crajkumar_be: Definitely not Mani's best work. Pre-Roja that would go to Mouna Ragam (IMO) and post-Roja to Iruvar. I just revisited the film and was trying to understand why I liked it so much when I first saw it.

My favorite work is Iruvar. Nayagan has its 'inspiration' imsai sadly, to become my second most favorite film. :)

[thilak4life]

Iruvar > KM, just my opinion.

And Iruvar is better than Nayagan too.

As for Anjali, I previously posted a PFC article (http://passionforcinema.com/anjali-mockingbird/) which I seem to agree with. Mani certainly inspires from TKAM, and in many ways, he has come out alright. Though "Anjali" in the end falls prey to its denouement. The characters and their relations are certainly derived from "To Kill a Mockingbird". Shekar is Atticus, and "Boo" is shared between Prabhu, and at different times, Anjali and Janagaraj, Arjun and Arun are Scout and Jem, the Bob is not a racist here, but a criminal, and it's not a wrongly accused rape case, and unlike Atticus, Shekhar is a mere witness. Mani's optimism wanes unlike TKAM. Anjali's Boo (Prabhu) kills Anjali's Bob, but he is also taken off and acquitted to jail (Again). Boo is a social misfit like Janakaraj, but the latter is taken to the asylum. Boo is mentally challenged, but he has this fondness for kids, like Anjali. But Mani decides to share Boo's character with Prabhu's character, Janakaraj and an Autistic child, and from the beginning to end, he intends to use the characters as emotionally manipulative element. None more so than Anjali. That's where I believe Chitra's character fits in.

In any case, I find this interesting. And I don't mean to say he has totally derived from TKAM by any means. But I find it to be an interesting parallel. :)

[thilak4life]

And One particular thing that Mani hasn't lost it is the kids.

Arjun and Anu evolve through the length of the film, while they start off with lies, false maturity, and childish tricks - IMO, they are no less irritating kids than Scout and Jem. In the end, there is a definite change, not exactly "mature", but a new-found understanding of the world. A&A are confronted by Anjali's reappearance, her condition, and their father's tussle with the criminal (Like Scout and Jem's with boo and Atticus' tussle with Bob). But this being suburban Chennai, I'd assume it's far fetched to expect Racism being part of the theme. What Mani succeeds at, as I said, the film as windows of the children (A&A). Towards the end, they have compassionate sibling love for Anjali inspite of her condition, and the fear of Prabhu is rightfully lost. In TKAM, Scout and Jem have similar change with Boo as the film goes by.

[crajkumar_be]

And One particular thing that Mani hasn't lost it is the kids.

:shock: That's the biggest negative of Anjali in particular and Mani films in general IMO

[Vivasaayi]

i hate kids in manis movies :mad:

just now realised how mani combined to kill a mocking bird and ET in his movie :)

[thilak4life]

And One particular thing that Mani hasn't lost it is the kids.

:shock: That's the biggest negative of Anjali in particular and Mani films in general IMO

That was in context to TKAM's kids, he hasn't lost the essence of the book. The bold part below.


Arjun and Anu evolve through the length of the film, while they start off with lies, false maturity, and childish tricks - IMO, they are no less irritating kids than Scout and Jem. In the end, there is a definite change, not exactly "mature", but a new-found understanding of the world. A&A are confronted by Anjali's reappearance, her condition, and their father's tussle with the criminal (Like Scout and Jem's with boo and Atticus' tussle with Bob). But this being suburban Chennai, I'd assume it's far fetched to expect Racism being part of the theme. What Mani succeeds at, as I said, the film as windows of the children (A&A). Towards the end, they have compassionate sibling love for Anjali inspite of her condition, and the fear of Prabhu is rightfully lost. In TKAM, Scout and Jem have similar change with Boo as the film goes by.

[crajkumar_be]

That was in context to TKAM's kids, he hasn't lost the essence of the book. The bold part below.

I got that but couldn't agree with this :)
[Upd: chi, read that again :oops: ... i mean Scout and Jem are nothing compared to our brats here]


IMO, they are no less irritating kids than Scout and Jem.

[Vivasaayi]

That was in context to TKAM's kids, he hasn't lost the essence of the book. The bold part below.

I got that but couldn't agree with this :)


IMO, they are no less irritating kids than Scout and Jem.

yes... :?

tkamb kids not even irritated 20% as much as the anjali kids.

[thilak4life]

That was in context to TKAM's kids, he hasn't lost the essence of the book. The bold part below.

I got that but couldn't agree with this :)


IMO, they are no less irritating kids than Scout and Jem.

Not even their characterizations? Scout and Jem are written with similar "adhigaprasangithanam", but they do have a feel of childlike quality about 'em. But when you adopt it into motion pictures, there are other elements which could come into this. Acting, dialogue delivery, etc. Mani's kids suffer from a pseudo-voice pivoting them, and his long history of kids portrayal leads us to believe this way. In fact, Most of his kids act, and behave like a young Suhasini, too irritating for their own good. If you get what I mean.

But I believe the characters A&A are no less irritating kids than Scout and Jem. This is of course with respect to Shekhar/Atticus, and other adults. Not necessarily my "reaction" to them. Or their acting in general.

[thilak4life]

Vivasaayi,

This could be because of acting, language, and the way they deliver some lines. But If you ask a random person of this film in isolation, who doesn't know Tamil and perhaps even Mani's history, there is a strong possibility of 'em not feeling irritated of the kids as we are.

And yeah, most of what I wrote above is in terms of theme of the film, and the characters. Sure I didn't really "love" the kids. But, my reaction to them is no different from my reaction to Scout and Jem. Though with Scout and Jem, their "innocence" were striking, but with A&A, you don't get that feeling.

[Vivasaayi]

Vivasaayi,

This could be because of acting, language, and the way they deliver some lines. But If you ask a random person of this film in isolation, who doesn't know Tamil and perhaps even Mani's history, there is a strong possibility of 'em not feeling irritated of the kids as we are.

And yeah, most of what I wrote above is in terms of theme of the film, and the characters. Sure I didn't really "love" the kids. But, my reaction to them is no different from my reaction to Scout and Jem. Though with Scout and Jem, their "innocence" were striking, but with A&A, you don't get that feeling.

yeah....i understood ur point with ur reply to cr. :)

except that suhasini part...trying to decipher :roll:

[thilak4life]

"except that suhasini part...trying to decipher "

Well, that was my reaction.

Mani's kids (in the films) are not as irritating as Suhasini, but enough to call them younger not-so-bad versions of her. :lol:

[crajkumar_be]

Not even their characterizations? Scout and Jem are written with similar "adhigaprasangithanam", but they do have a feel of childlike quality about 'em. But when you adopt it into motion pictures, there are other elements which could come into this. Acting, dialogue delivery, etc. Mani's kids suffer from a pseudo-voice pivoting them, and his long history of kids portrayal leads us to believe this way.


yeah, first thappa purinjukitten (see prev post edited).




In fact, Most of his kids act, and behave like a young Suhasini, too irritating for their own good. If you get what I mean.

:exactly: The world would be a better place without KB's women and Maniyaan's kids :razz:

[Vivasaayi]

"except that suhasini part...trying to decipher "

Well, that was my reaction.

Mani's kids (in the films) are not as irritating as Suhasini, but enough to call them younger not-so-bad versions of her. :lol:
:lol:

[thilak4life]

In fact, Most of his kids act, and behave like a young Suhasini, too irritating for their own good. If you get what I mean.

:exactly: The world would be a better place without KB's women and Maniyaan's kids :razz:

Egjactly. KB's women are the worst-u. :twisted:

[A_Ajith]

Edhuku

Vendam

Panidu

No maten

Sari

Ok Bye


Wow Mani movie dialogues rocks!!!!

[Anban]

Kannathil Muthamittal? Mani Ratnam is the master of his own cliches.

this movie too has such cliches.. but still inspite of that, it is a superb movie..

[A.ANAND]

Maniratnam movie-a rasikanum,alasi arayakudathu! :D :cool2:

[Anban]

Maniratnam movie-a rasikanum,alasi arayakudathu! :D :cool2: rasikka mudiyalayea !! athu yeannuthaan alasi aarayurom..

[MADDY]

Maniratnam movie-a rasikanum,alasi arayakudathu! :D :cool2: rasikka mudiyalayea !! athu yeannuthaan alasi aarayurom..

EKSI, do u alasify why u dont like sam anderson movies or JKR movies?? u just leave it and go rite, andha madhiri maniratnam padathhayum vittuttu ponga

[ajithfederer]

An overwheming :yes:

Iruvar > KM, just my opinion.

And Iruvar is better than Nayagan too.

[ajithfederer]

:lol: :yes:


:exactly: The world would be a better place without KB's women and Maniyaan's kids :razz:

[VENKIRAJA]

An overwheming :yes:

Iruvar > KM, just my opinion.

And Iruvar is better than Nayagan too.


:exactly:

And I didn't like TKAMB either. Anjali seemed like a good movie, but when I watched it as a kid - I believed rich kids living in big apartments talking english in some Convent will behave like that. They had actually grown up with MR. Sidharth of Ayutha ezuthu looked like Anjali's Tarun (10 varudam kazhithu..)

[A.ANAND]

Maniratnam movie-a rasikanum,alasi arayakudathu! :D :cool2: rasikka mudiyalayea !! athu yeannuthaan alasi aarayurom..

ungglala rasikka mudiyala inna,athukku manirtanam enna pannuvar??oru velai unnga rasanaikku perararasu,dharani,hari movie-than pidikkumo ennavo! :roll:

[Scale]

[tscii:e020c43360]In what way Mr. Bruce Lee& overwhelming Mr. Barrack Obama? :D

Both KB & MR have one thing in common. They have created some intelligent characters in W/K a revelation to their era which TF have never experienced. KB is a filmi theorist & Mani brings modern/technical brilliance on screen thru his characters. That’s their style of film making and it worked <flawlessly, don’t bang>. KB is a godfather of TF.. Some of them might rebuke these characters as adhigaprasangithanam, blah blah...but certainly not. May be the Veterans Directors have to take a backseat and watch (Story/Dialogue/Director) KH's Dasas women Krishnaveni paati & Aandal or AS Kiran or DM Gauthami. No... No..... they are not adhighaprasangighal certainly made the world a better place for few atleast. You people have never learnt to be selfish and sketch characters of your presence and importance. For Mani, on how to exploit kids appropriately make a sequel on KP, Father & Mother smooching live in front of their childrens. Why MTV, FTV. Great concept for Mani Sir! Kalaachara seerkedu. I can quote many.... <Move to sticky topics>


Thilak, Anjali inspired from TKAMB? Are you sure?
[/tscii:e020c43360]

[Scale]

Maniratnam movies are more than rasikkum thanmai kandippa alasi arayavendiya vagaiyil niraya padangal thanthirukkirar. Even I can do that for movies like Indhra, Satya etc....

Two great interview/Article of KB & MR

http://passionforcinema.com/k-balachander-in-discussion/


http://desitrain.com/2006/06/27/the-genius-of-mani-ratnam-by-kartik-krishnan/

[sarna_blr]

[tscii:5672d6d6c4]In what way Mr. Bruce Lee& overwhelming Mr. Barrack Obama? :D

Both KB & MR have one thing in common. They have created some intelligent characters in W/K a revelation to their era which TF have never experienced. KB is a filmi theorist & Mani brings modern/technical brilliance on screen thru his characters. That’s their style of film making and it worked <flawlessly, don’t bang>. KB is a godfather of TF.. Some of them might rebuke these characters as adhigaprasangithanam, blah blah…but certainly not. May be the Veterans Directors have to take a backseat and watch (Story/Dialogue/Director) KH's Dasas women Krishnaveni paati & Aandal or AS Kiran or DM Gauthami. No… No…. they are not adhighaprasangighal certainly made the world a better place for few atleast. You people have never learnt to be selfish and sketch characters of your presence and importance. For Mani, on how to exploit kids appropriately make a sequel on KP, Father & Mother smooching live in front of their childrens. Why MTV, FTV. Great concept for Mani Sir! Kalaachara seerkedu. I can quote many…. <Move to sticky topics>


Thilak, Anjali inspired from TKAMB? Are you sure?
[/tscii:5672d6d6c4]

well said :2thumbsup:

hubbers widely used language'la sollanum'naa, KB padam ( includes story, charactor, etc I mean ALL ) pudikkalainaa ?? avanukku rasanai illainu aththam :)

[MADDY]

Both KB & MR have one thing in common. They have created some intelligent characters in W/K a revelation to their era which TF have never experienced. KB is a filmi theorist & Mani brings modern/technical brilliance on screen thru his characters. That’s their style of film making and it worked <flawlessly, don’t bang>. KB is a godfather of TF.. Some of them might rebuke these characters as adhigaprasangithanam, blah blah...but certainly not. May be the Veterans Directors have to take a backseat and watch (Story/Dialogue/Director) KH's Dasas women Krishnaveni paati & Aandal or AS Kiran or DM Gauthami. No... No..... they are not adhighaprasangighal certainly made the world a better place for few atleast. You people have never learnt to be selfish and sketch characters of your presence and importance. For Mani, on how to exploit kids appropriately make a sequel on KP, Father & Mother smooching live in front of their childrens. Why MTV, FTV. Great concept for Mani Sir! Kalaachara seerkedu. I can quote many.... <Move to sticky topics>[/tscii:a2ed1e3975]

just bcos 2 kamal fans said it, we neednt drag kamal's movies and his creations into this..........its not just kamal fans who hate mani's kids(in movies).......

to be fair, i like the anamoly or what do u say Inappropriateness in Mani's movies......like old ladies dancing for a first night song, kids talking abt adult things, terrorist having mercy, terrorist cracking jokes with radio journalists, riots ending up peacefully, business tyccon escapes economic offences with a 4.30 mins arguement etc etc........i would certainly say, these are the things that make the mani's movie watching more interesting like u expect a vanilla ice-cream but get a chocolate ice cream at that place........nevertheless chocolate is inappropriate for that place :)

[thilak4life]

Scale,

I was appreciating it, not meant to make this TKAM "inspiration" a negative. In any case, I seem to have liked "Anjali" more than most here. No offense. :)

[Scale]

[tscii:6e4c893cce]Maddy,

Its very simple and you know this tactics of counter arguing what we have learnt from mayyam's musical experience. :lol: I developed this habit of questioning, quarrel and to get convinced finally <be it right or wrong>. Sincerely, NOM to any! I don’t know how I edited the post "On a director's perspective, In 75 yrs of TF no women characters are as good and strong as KB's women. One after the other..They are stalwarts not just weeping guise" If this was included Kamal fans or non KH fans, comparison on KH 's women would have become immaterial.

Reg Mani's works what you got chocolate icecream instead of vanilla icecream is his devil MBA's "doctrine". He has been terribly confused in differenciating art and commercial movies. He has past his prime. Things are getting worst now more with his association to Bachan's family. "Ravana" next :evil: Neverthless he has given some fresh ilaneers in movies like anjali, iruvar, & KM. And you know the end result. Someday the burnt fingers needs to be healed! He also need "Alaipayuthe", Guru :) (I liked Dasa too- Spectacular show)

Thilak, Thanks for the clarification. I was literally traumatized! Anjali is my all time fav of Mani & IR Combo. I wish Mani makes a sequel with ARR. That would be Priceless!
[/tscii:6e4c893cce]

[groucho070]

Thilak, Thanks for the clarification. I was literally traumatized! Anjali is my all time fav of Mani & IR Combo. I wish Mani makes a sequel with ARR. That would be Priceless!
[/tscii]

Noooo.....not sure what you are traumatised for. But I was traumatised by Anjali. I have not thought about genocide till then, or ever, till I saw that movie....don't ask me who my intended victims were.

I may have been softened by age...but a sequel will bring that murderer out of me again.

By the way, I like your avatar. :)

[Scale]

:lol: :rotfl: vendama vutruvom. prachanaiye illai. PFC Dr. Jaiganes :wink:

Thanks groucho. I love this Avatar :D

[ajithfederer]

Dude,

I am in no way a mr or kb basher as per your assumption and its my Opinon that Iruvar is the best work of MR much better than Nayagan.

And if you ask me why MR's kids and KB's women are irritating because i find them irritating and cliched.

And regarding the KH link, weak thing bro, try something harder!.

[tscii:05aee74a73]In what way Mr. Bruce Lee& overwhelming Mr. Barrack Obama? :D

Both KB & MR have one thing in common. They have created some intelligent characters in W/K a revelation to their era which TF have never experienced. KB is a filmi theorist & Mani brings modern/technical brilliance on screen thru his characters. That’s their style of film making and it worked <flawlessly, don’t bang>. KB is a godfather of TF.. Some of them might rebuke these characters as adhigaprasangithanam, blah blah...but certainly not. May be the Veterans Directors have to take a backseat and watch (Story/Dialogue/Director) KH's Dasas women Krishnaveni paati & Aandal or AS Kiran or DM Gauthami. No... No..... they are not adhighaprasangighal certainly made the world a better place for few atleast. You people have never learnt to be selfish and sketch characters of your presence and importance. For Mani, on how to exploit kids appropriately make a sequel on KP, Father & Mother smooching live in front of their childrens. Why MTV, FTV. Great concept for Mani Sir! Kalaachara seerkedu. I can quote many.... <Move to sticky topics>


Thilak, Anjali inspired from TKAMB? Are you sure?
[/tscii:05aee74a73]

[crajkumar_be]

Scale,
Next?

[Scale]

AF,

I have given a clear explanation in my previous post. Read it again. I can quote from several other Directors tho dragging KH works and women is not my intention actually but that have served the purpose logically.

I disagree your opinions on KB's women and MR kids. Thats what my reply is for some people try to generalize it. Opinions differ and we can live with it. NOM, AF & Mr. Bruce Lee in advance :) Bala - Is soonapaana dead?

[Scale]

Welcome Bala! :)

[crajkumar_be]

Scale,
nandri. LEt's follow the tharaga mantram of A2D/D2A :razz:

//dig soonapaana is down for now and is in no hurry for a revival :)

P.S: naanum Mani admirer dhaan.. just pointed out a facet i don't like in his movies and i understand that you dont agree with what was being pointed out

[P_R]

Very good post complicateur !

Interesting line of thinking about why Anjali is appealing to the kid-viewer. As the kids seemed to have a 'world' of their own.

Slipping out and dancing in the night was all unbelievably thrilling to watch. It was extremely make-believe, where was there that kind of 'independence' in the real world. Forget cycling to the moon, rAthiri nErathil etc. This itself was quite amazing to watch and left quite an impression. My cousin- much to my annoyance - started calling me "dei AnnA".

Of course he overdid it, the children in MR's films can do with some good spanking (a la Srividhya in punnagai mannan). Regarding KB's heroines- they are meant to get on one's nerves I guess. Artist v Art all apart, Sindhu Bairavi and Manadhil Urudhi vEndum have made me develop sufficient antipathy towards SuhAsini for this lifetime.

[groucho070]

Of course he overdid it, the children in MR's films can do with some good spanking (a la Srividhya in punnagai mannan). Regarding KB's heroines- they are meant to get on one's nerves I guess. Artist v Art all apart, Sindhu Bairavi and Manadhil Urudhi vEndum have made me develop sufficient antipathy towards SuhAsini for this lifetime.

:lol:

Yeah...forced feminism - almost patronising, if you ask me. It was different in KB's 70s, where I feel he showed real women with real issues. We can dispense with some characters which are like charicatures (Fadafat Jeyaletchumi in Sollataan Ninaikkiren comes to my mind), but overall they gave new faces and meaning to the TFI. Remember Sowcar, Sri Vidhya, Jeya Chitra, Sujatha, Sri Priya, Sri Devi...they all had memorable roles thanks to KB. What happened to them 80s onwards?

[thilak4life]

Reading between the lines,

dancing in the night was all unbelievably thrilling to watch. It was extremely make-believe, where was there that kind of 'independence' in the real world.
This reminds me of Revathy in Mouna Raagam, except that she's not a kid. :lol2:

[thilak4life]

Kb's heroines are incredibly masochistic, and handling of such characters is devoid of sensitivity. We have exceptions. But if you watched most of 'em in his oeuvre, you get the feeling the he is subverting "mores" and normality at expense of their characters.

[P_R]

Reading between the lines,

dancing in the night was all unbelievably thrilling to watch. It was extremely make-believe, where was there that kind of 'independence' in the real world.
This reminds me of Revathy in Mouna Raagam, except that she's not a kid. :lol2:

Yeah, instead she was this young lady whose heart torn apart due to a personal tragedy :P

[thilak4life]

Reading between the lines,

dancing in the night was all unbelievably thrilling to watch. It was extremely make-believe, where was there that kind of 'independence' in the real world.
This reminds me of Revathy in Mouna Raagam, except that she's not a kid. :lol2:

Yeah, instead she was this young lady whose heart torn apart due to a personal tragedy :P

:lol:

[MADDY]

Yeah, instead she was this young lady whose heart torn apart due to a personal tragedy :P

my dad always raises this point to criticise this movie........i mean, she could have just moved on in other aspects in life..... :)

[P_R]

Maddy, the whole movie was about her not being able to move on.
"ukkArdA sOmbEri" and all sit oddly. I like that film too, but it i will have to say MR was still cutting his teeth.

Regarding Nayagan v Iruvar debate.....I would pick Nayagan twice over.

[thilak4life]

PR, Nayagan is a great film. But personally speaking, Iruvar is seminal work in Tamil cinema to-date.

I don't know if I could do justice to the film. But once again, Mr.Rangan's review is simply stunning. You should have read it by now.

[Anban]

Maddy,

Mani is very much worth discussing .. My problem with him is, he repeats his own stuff again and again.. Hence i got bored.. :(

infact, i like Thiruda THiruda very much.. its a cool movie ..

[A_Ajith]

He wrote Story and SCREENPLAY for CAPTIAN's SATHIRYAN. It was one of the best movies of Captain till date

[Vivasaayi]

[tscii:5d3712004f] For Mani, on how to exploit kids appropriately make a sequel on KP, Father & Mother smooching live in front of their childrens. Why MTV, FTV. Great concept for Mani Sir! Kalaachara seerkedu. I can quote many.... <Move to sticky topics>
[/tscii:5d3712004f]

as u have deliberately brought kamalhaasan(kurudhipunal) into this thread.here are the similar roles which are sketched by kamalhaasan.

kids in kamal movies:

mahanadhi - shobana and the boy (before going to jail and after released from jail.)

avvai shanmugi - the girl charecter

sathileelavathi - 3 kid charecters are there.

kurudhipunal - the kid charecterization(u dint watch only the smooch right?)

aalavandhan twins - flashback

ask mani to watch these movies to know how kids really are in earth!...not as his kids who are from venus.

I think u r so obsessed with that kiss that u have mentioned only that particular scene among kamals movies!

[sarna_blr]

ask mani to watch these movies to know how kids really are in earth!...not as his kids who are from venus.

:shock: :omg: r u from venus , if no, hw r u able to know abt venus kids :roll:

[Vivasaayi]

ask mani to watch these movies to know how kids really are in earth!...not as his kids who are from venus.

:shock: :omg: r u from venus , if no, hw r u able to know abt venus kids :roll:

from manis movies :huh:

[MADDY]

ask mani to watch these movies to know how kids really are in earth!...not as his kids who are from venus

:lol2:

actually mani's dad is also known as "Venus ratnam" :)

[sarna_blr]

ask mani to watch these movies to know how kids really are in earth!...not as his kids who are from venus.

:shock: :omg: r u from venus , if no, hw r u able to know abt venus kids :roll:

from manis movies :huh:

:lol2:

no jokes please :huh:

[Vivasaayi]

ask mani to watch these movies to know how kids really are in earth!...not as his kids who are from venus.

:shock: :omg: r u from venus , if no, hw r u able to know abt venus kids :roll:

from manis movies :huh:

:lol2:

no jokes please :huh:

ohhh...that sounded funny?..thank u!

[MADDY]

ask mani to watch these movies to know how kids really are in earth!...not as his kids who are from venus.

:shock: :omg: r u from venus , if no, hw r u able to know abt venus kids :roll:

from manis movies :huh:

wow, Mani has done wat NASA couldnt do :notworthy: finding life in venus :notworthy:

[Vivasaayi]

ask mani to watch these movies to know how kids really are in earth!...not as his kids who are from venus.

:shock: :omg: r u from venus , if no, hw r u able to know abt venus kids :roll:

from manis movies :huh:

wow, Mani has done wat NASA couldnt do :notworthy: finding life in venus :notworthy:

but u see...people who dont belong to earth could be very annoying to human beings...thats what people here are talking abt

his annoying kids :lol2:

[sarna_blr]

ask mani to watch these movies to know how kids really are in earth!...not as his kids who are from venus.

:shock: :omg: r u from venus , if no, hw r u able to know abt venus kids :roll:

from manis movies :huh:

:lol2:

no jokes please :huh:

ohhh...that sounded funny?..thank u!

Vikky be serious, oruththar Kamal'a iluththaarungradhukkaaga, Mani'ya indhalavukku pottu thaakkakoodaadhu :huh:

Anjali vEnum'naa copy/inspiration'aa irukkattum adhu vEra kadhai-pazhaya topic :wink:

[HonestRaj]

kids I liked from Mani movies:

1. Nayagan - when kamal's son & daughter play like their father & iyer delhi ganesh

2. Sathriyan - When VK, after becoming AC for 2nd time, he will be playing with his son (that type of scenes are new to VK)

[MADDY]

Maddy, the whole movie was about her not being able to move on.
"ukkArdA sOmbEri" and all sit oddly. I like that film too, but it i will have to say MR was still cutting his teeth.

i think she has a problem with her married life/louu life and is ok with other aspects.....i think this was bought out pretty well........aana neraya per convince aagala-nnu theriyudhu

[sarna_blr]

but u see...people who dont belong to earth could be very annoying to human beings...thats what people here are talking abt

his annoying kids :lol2:

enna oru kandupidippu :lol2: Vikky, neenga endha oor'la irukkeenga :roll:
oru naayi innoru naaya vEttayaadaadhu :huh:
oru panni innoru panniya kollaadu :huh:
but manushan dhaan innoru manushana :huh:

it will be better if u stick to topic rather than speaking abt venus mars jupiter etc :)

[Vivasaayi]

mani is one of my most fav directors!..but certainly his kids are :mad:

as honestraj has mentioned - chathriyan kids are :) !

[littlemaster1982]

Maddy, the whole movie was about her not being able to move on.
"ukkArdA sOmbEri" and all sit oddly. I like that film too, but it i will have to say MR was still cutting his teeth.

i think she has a problem with her married life/louu life and is ok with other aspects.....i think this was bought out pretty well........aana neraya per convince aagala-nnu theriyudhu

Naanum idheydhaan yosichen :roll:

[MADDY]

but u see...people who dont belong to earth could be very annoying to human beings...thats what people here are talking abt

as if all people on earth are not annoying.......... :lol2: seri vidunga, scale kamal-a izhuthadhu thappu dhaan....... :)

[Vivasaayi]

she was so happy n the first scene...which was eventually after karthiks death if we look at the timeline of the movie...

[sarna_blr]

Maddy, the whole movie was about her not being able to move on.
"ukkArdA sOmbEri" and all sit oddly. I like that film too, but it i will have to say MR was still cutting his teeth.

i think she has a problem with her married life/louu life and is ok with other aspects.....i think this was bought out pretty well........aana neraya per convince aagala-nnu theriyudhu

I was convinced until she says kambali poochchi oorura maadhiri irukku other than this single scene, Mounaraagam is a very good movie

mEdayai pOlE vaazhkkai alla 8-)

[Vivasaayi]

but u see...people who dont belong to earth could be very annoying to human beings...thats what people here are talking abt

as if all people on earth are not annoying.......... :lol2: seri vidunga, scale kamal-a izhuthadhu thappu dhaan....... :)

panchayatha kalachachu..ambuduthen

[MADDY]

she was so happy n the first scene...which was eventually after karthiks death if we look at the timeline of the movie...

even during a depressing married life, she cracks jokes and keeps playing pranks........

i think there must be 1 or 2 yrs gap betn karthik incident and the rain song :?

[Vivasaayi]

i think mani is caught between the idea of portraying a cute bubbly heroine and the charecter which is actually demanded by the story.he wants the charecter to be both interesting to the people and sticking with the story.

[app_engine]

Digression -



Artist v Art all apart, Sindhu Bairavi and Manadhil Urudhi vEndum have made me develop sufficient antipathy towards SuhAsini for this lifetime.

I was a big critic of Suhasini's character (and she used to play similar ones often) when SB got released - I think 1985. Used to criticize the NA award policy etc (Radha could not get for MM because it was Radhika's voice, for e.g.)

However, last year - i.e. 22 years after the movie got released-, I got a chance to view again in DVD. I'm forced to acknowledge it's a stunning performance by Suhasini in SB. And my viewpoint has totally changed and my current rating of the movie / characterisations - phenomenal. Am I getting old? Has the world changed? May be.

Ended up watching it over and over again. It also had decent sub-titles and hence watched a couple of times with Detroiters too. They loved the movie / music. (Suhasini's sarees were 'WOW' for American women, esp the one she wears for 'pAdaRiyEn') :-)

Did you watch SB recently or just old memories?

End-digression

[Nerd]

Maddy, the whole movie was about her not being able to move on.
"ukkArdA sOmbEri" and all sit oddly. I like that film too, but it i will have to say MR was still cutting his teeth.

i think she has a problem with her married life/louu life and is ok with other aspects.....i think this was bought out pretty well........aana neraya per convince aagala-nnu theriyudhu
Naanum idheydhaan yosichen :roll:
Ejjattly.. Oruthanukku louu failure-nA 24 hours-um adha pathiyE nenachikittu iruppAingaLA? Apdippattavanga suicide panniruppAnga (80s). She gets cranky and whiny only if she starts thinking sbout her lost louu.. Rain and sardarji are no way connected to her love life, she sort of finds solace in them.. Mouna raagam is mani's finest!

[app_engine]

Oruthanukku louu failure-nA

I thought the Karthik character gets killed - tragedy, yes, but love failure? :roll:

[Nerd]

Oruthanukku louu failure-nA

I thought the Karthik character gets killed - tragedy, yes, but love failure?
Right. End of the day, she was unable to marry the one she loved.. I feel death of the one you loved is as bad as not being able to live with him/her .. :?

[complicateur]

PR: Thanks. The idea behind having precocious kids inhabit films is that every one loves a precocious kid, when they are not the ones dealing with them 24/7. romba sutti and related terms went from being a warning to an endorsement. I think that might have been Anjali's biggest accomplishment.

Thilak/PR: Regarding Mouna Ragam I had a few theories.
1. I think the timeline is rather significant. Divya is still in college so obviously not too much time (at most 2 years) has passed since Manohar's death. So she might still be in denial and overcompensating. The scenes after the peN pArththal she moves on to anger because she is forced to come to terms with the death (no real excuse to not want to get married). Everything including the marriage and post marriage is bargaining (if she doesn't sleep with Chandrakumar somehow she is being faithful to Manohar - orE sinna puLLathanamA irukkum). The biggest deviation from the Kubler-Ross stages of grief is the lack of depression associated with the loss of Manohar. The first time we actually see her depressed is when Chandrakumar starts his "Taming of the Shrew" technique.
2. The opening might have just been Mani's way of sending mixed signals to the audience. Maybe she is just a free spirit, who didn't like being shackled. But NO! Here is the twist in the tale, she was in love before. (Even though this is fairly hammy if you think about it)
3. The entire sequence with the Sardarji started with a possible fish out of water trend but descended into banality. I thought he could have derived more humor from VKR and Mohan's interactions.

On the whole Mouna Ragam was an interesting first take on life of a girl from 80's Madras. I had written something that stood out sometime ago. Athayum kEzhE post pannidarEn.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
An obviously conflicted Divya sits on the roof of her house - is it still even her house any more? - as her mother tries to talk her into participating in that most well designed of awkward situations, the first of many nights to be spent with someone you barely know. The archaic ceremony that had taken place earlier in the day, something she had been emotionally blackmailed into, had done nothing to change her apprehensions. Her mother repeating banal statements, the understanding of which is predicated on unquestioningly buying into tradition, just serves to aggravate her further. It is the purpose of youth to disrespect age and the bane of the aged to forget their youth.

It is here that Rathnam's writing stood out to me, demonstrating a considerable understanding of the inner workings of a joint family. Divya's sister-in-law (brother's wife), in all probability realising that the argument would hardly solve anything, asks to speak to her privately. The next scene has Divya facing Chandrakumar in a room. Implied is the fact that the sister-in-law succesfully talked Divya down off the roof. What exactly transpired between them is of no importance, because the average Tamil cinema viewer already knew the outcome. The genius in the writing is how this foregone conclusion is engineered. And who better to do it than a character who probably faced similar apprehensions not long enough ago to have forgotten them?

[P_R]

Did you watch SB recently or just old memories?
Old memories largely. But it comes on and off on TV. Surely don't have the patience to sit and watch it completely. I see parts on and off and yet to experience much change yet.

I almost always laugh out loud when she sings with a conscious expression "thalaikanamum enakku illai".

Inside joke ? :-)

The teary smile in kalaivANiyE and things of that sort I still feel unimpressed. I think it is also because I am not able to connect much to the character.

[P_R]

Mouna Raagam from Kubler-Ross (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C3%BCbler-Ross_model) perpective :bow:

en pangukku...

She is actually not that chirpy in the flashback. She is morose and sober and it is Manohar who is full of life. So perhaps by being chirpy was perhaps trying to live the life Manohar didn't. heh heh :P

All said, the rain-dance and sardarji taunts being overcompensation is a bit strained IMO. I just see them as commercial thrust-ins that didn't gel well with the characterization. The edges showed.

Completely agree that comedy could have been internally developed

VKR: kalyANam mudinjittA ? honeymoon-nu onnu irukkE
Mohan: union negotiation-nu onnu irukkE
VKR: unakkellAm evan yA poNNu kuduththAn :rotfl:


VKR: nee oru makku yA :lol:

[app_engine]

mounarAgam - nice film with some irritations here & there. The worst one being the picturization of 'pani vizhum iravu':-( This was my most fav song when the album got released (nice vocal harmony and innovative orchestration at that time) and used to listen to in headphones in the night. (Recently a Boston radio found this to be worthy to air among many classics that fellow hubber irir123 recommended to them).

Never had a chance to see the movie during those days and was so irritated when I saw this atrocious picturization in a VCD full of songs. My opinion didn't change when I viewed the movie either. Should learn from malayALi directors on how to bring in such songs in a movie like this without irritability.

I'm not sure what came first nAyakan or MR. If nAyakan came later, then we can safely assume that Mani has improved by leaps and bounds by that time (on song picturizations).

[NOV]

Sindhu Bairavi was the best movie of that year and Suhasini and Sivakumar's acting were impeccable. Until then both had been only average in acting terms.

SB surely deserves to up there among one of the finest Tamil movies ever made although I understand that the subject matter may bring discomfort to many viewers.

[groucho070]

[tscii:1351d5932b]
Sindhu Bairavi was the best movie of that year and Suhasini and Sivakumar's acting were impeccable. Until then both had been only average in acting terms.
SB surely deserves to up there among one of the finest Tamil movies ever made although I understand that the subject matter may bring discomfort to many viewers.

I'd say Siva Kumar had his own style. He had always been average, and his average performance was useful here. Too bad his real life Mr. Nice Guy personality seeps into his performance, and he is not convincing when playing otherwise. But he did well in that Tanneer Totti song, or Thom, thom aveesam. As for Suhasini…I really can’t place her. Here, I see KB in her performance…you see that in all strong female portrayal of KB’s films 80s onwards. I felt Sulakshana’s portrayal as the naïve wife has been grossly underrated. Now, I am not joining the “revise, revive” bandwagon here…but her performance was really moving. But I agree SB should be up there as one of the finest…but in the context of 80s onwards. Subject matter discomfort-ah? Well, after KB’s incestuous temptation of Apoorva Raganggal and low-life inspection of Tappu Taalanggal…SB is nothing. Just about a snobbish carnatic musician whose arrogance is crumpled when he has extra marital affair. Ampudutheen.
[/tscii:1351d5932b]

[Scale]

Its not just one film. Take his entire filmography (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K._Balachander), KB has got a phenomenal success rate in introducing new perception and stalwarts of female characters. Yes, its all old memories largely but I am sure its one after the other. Some Veteran Hubbers can dig further.

Bala, When you have just said KB's women and Maniyaans kids are irritating I really dont mind. I value your opinions. But How does that world becomes a better place? Worst scenario, TFI wouldnt have been better without KB & Mani to a lesser extent. You think KBR, BR, Visu's women and kids are that interesting?

Vivasayi, are you nilavu? :roll:

[jaiganes]

Mouna Raagam is a movie I have seen 36 times. Never a dull moment - the film was short and sweet. Just a mature man-woman relationship explorer from story stand point - but the characterizations were rather unique.
Divya - volumes can be written on how she was modelled after so many upper middle class rebels and how thousands of young women in Chennai wanted to be like her - Independant, sharp and humorous. They say films become cult classics/classics . In this case Divya's character and the way Revathi made it look so luminous on screen has made the character a cult classic. Its impact and the fact that it officially gave birth on screen to some of Sujatha novel heroines is a literary landmark - a watershed. For leading ladies before Divya would have been labelled 'arrogant soon to be tamed spoilt rich girls' in the script - bright bold and red.
This character then became Mani's stock character. His leading ladies more often than not become some version of Divya - save for manisha's characters in Bombay and DilSe this statement still holds true.
Though everyone loved the cameo by Karthik that kinda balanced Divya's character - the character that impressed me was Mohan's chandra and what a great casting decision to put mohan in there. There is an actor who is voice wise challenged, but well equippped otherwise to emote and visually express. Again this character is a U turn for the husbands tolerating wife character in thamizh cinema hitherto. The usual husband would have won the stalemate by a tight slap to his wife's cheek or some sort of forceful measure to show his 'aambalai thanam'. Here chandra does something so sensitive and so very middle class - where men are brought up to be sensitive to women and soon a generation of men would try to emulate mohan's character subconsciously.
And offcourse the champ - Manohar who went on to become another stock character in mani's movies from there.. the bold guy - who gives two hoots to society and norms . so Mouna ragam is a starting point for so many things and no wonder it was a starting point to Mani's different approach to his movie making career in Thamizh cinema.

[Anban]

the only thing that irritates me in mounaragam is the comedy track between vkr and that singh.. :banghead:

[crajkumar_be]

Bala, When you have just said KB's women and Maniyaans kids are irritating I really dont mind. I value your opinions. But How does that world becomes a better place? Worst scenario, TFI wouldnt have been better without KB & Mani to a lesser extent.

V
ada, "world would be a better place" ellam oru pechukku solradhu.. adhellam serious a eduthukkalama? :)


You think KBR, BR, Visu's women and kids are that interesting?
Visu :lol: His films/characters reach a point beyond a line where everything we see is awesome entertainment :lol:

[sakaLAKALAKAlaa Vallavar]

http://sify.com/movies/tamil/fullstory.php?id=14802820

Meltdown hits Mani?
By Moviebuzz | Friday, 21 November , 2008, 11:28


Reliance Big Pictures (RBP), which has struck deals with Hollywood studios was said to be making four films in Tamil- Mani Ratnam's bi-lingual Ravana in Hindi, Tamil, Telugu, Cheran's Autograph- 2, Hari directed Surya's Singam to be produced by Studio Green, and a Fazil film with Pritviraj.

Due to world wide recession and economic meltdown, the grapevine is abuzz that they have put three of these films for which shooting is yet to start, on the backburner. Meanwhile sources in the industry say that they have sent a letter to Mani Ratnam to cut down his budget, from the originally signed Rs 120 crore to Rs 60 crore!

This has come as a major setback to Mani who was shooting his film on a lavish scale in the forests of Kerala. The meltdown has hit Mani the hardest, as his action adventure film, a modern day 'Ramayan' a bi-lingual has top stars like Abhishek Bachchan, Aiswarya Rai, Govinda, Vikram, Prabhu, Pritviraj, Karthik, Priyamani and so many others.

Reliance Big Pictures it seems has told Mani that his film is not commercially viable at the rate they purchased due to global meltdown and recession. Mani will now have to either look for a new producer or do some cost cutting if he has to continue with Ravan.

The corporate theory now is that all top actors and directors in Bollywood are willing to slash their salary, and bring down production cost. So why can't Mani do some drastic cost cutting.

However when contacted the COO of Big Pictures Mahesh Ramanathan, refused to comment. Mani Ratnam also was not available for comment.

[selvakumar]

Ennamoe Mani, shankar alavukku big budget padam edukkura maari solluraanga :? I thought Mani is a miser when it comes to production. Rs.100/- koduthaalum, Rs.10/- la padatha mudichuduvaarunnu nenaikiraen :?

Mani athigamaa kaasu selavazhicha padam ethu ? Nayagan ?

[complicateur]

Selvakumar: Probably Guru or Yuva: Actors fees being the highest portion for Yuva and all the period sets / Ash's salary being the biggest budget hits in Guru.

[crajkumar_be]

Selvakumar: Probably Guru or Yuva: Actors fees being the highest portion for Yuva and all the period sets / Ash's salary being the biggest budget hits in Guru.
IMO Mani (to an extent Raajkamal also) kaasu ellam remba kudukka maattaaru (maybe for Guru)...
Mani na sambalam kammiya vaanga ready-a iruppaanga...

[complicateur]

Selvakumar: Probably Guru or Yuva: Actors fees being the highest portion for Yuva and all the period sets / Ash's salary being the biggest budget hits in Guru.
IMO Mani (to an extent Raajkamal also) kaasu ellam remba kudukka maattaaru (maybe for Guru)...
Mani na sambalam kammiya vaanga ready-a iruppaanga...
OhO! Mumbai-la bayangara strittaa salary vaanguvainga-nnu nenachEn (thats why I mention just Yuva not AE). But you may be right. The second generation Bacchan's definitely have a high level of respect for Mani-saar.

[Vivasaayi]

Selvakumar: Probably Guru or Yuva: Actors fees being the highest portion for Yuva and all the period sets / Ash's salary being the biggest budget hits in Guru.
IMO Mani (to an extent Raajkamal also) kaasu ellam remba kudukka maattaaru (maybe for Guru)...
Mani na sambalam kammiya vaanga ready-a iruppaanga...

nce sarathkumar complained for mani asking him to act for a "adimaatu"rate.

[Scale]

1. 100+ crores. sarva saatharnama solraaingha... :idontgetit: Mani Sir. neengaluma?
Shall we suggest Shankar productions :lol2:

/Dign
Just checked his website
What cinema means to me in his diary, check www.directorshankar.com
:rotfl:

What does Shankar mean to me?
The producer is a piecemeal cheapskate. All (http://spictures.org) interesting!
The Director is large-scale swindler. :Sivaji,
Enthiran: The Disaster continues:
/End Dign

2. The irony is the "nattamai" sarath kumar have never tasted sugarcane nor heard about that expert's adage "karumbu thinna kooliya"! PKMC was one good performance from him but adhayum GM kadichi thuppittaru.. avar sariya thaan pannirukkaru irundhalum vera yarayavadhu potrukalam. idhukku peru ennanganna which MR never did to anyone.

[Scale]

Due to world wide recession and economic meltdown, the grapevine is abuzz that they have put three of these films for which shooting is yet to start, on the backburner. Meanwhile sources in the industry say that they have sent a letter to Mani Ratnam to cut down his budget, from the originally signed Rs 120 crore to Rs 60 crore!

It looks like the aapeesar Senthil have written such a letter to Gaunder and what would be his reaction?

GM : aapeesar, kodikku ethanai saibarunnu theiryuma ungalukku.

senthil : andha calculatora edu man. press zeros 0000000 only 0 appears

GM : err.... bavyama "120la paathiyavadhu evvalavunnu theriyuma

Senthil: 120 div by 12 div by 20 = 0.5 (zero pulli five)

GM : ooooow, appa 0.5 kodi thaane budgetla koraikkanum 60 kodi eppadi koraikka solreengha

Senthil: adada...unnoda rothaenaya poche athellam management
not matmatics. film rolla korai.

GM : :roll:

paavam Mani Sir :(

[HonestRaj]

Today morning Sun Tv showed

Thalapathy

For the entire team :notworthy:

[P_R]

Resumed aayitha ezhuththu

Barathiraja is just brilliant....every single scene he is in, he is fantastic

When he meets Surya (pOgalai)

when he receives Surya when he is discharged from the hospital

The scene where he orders Inba's hit....

and the scene when Inba is comes after killing Guna

thappu paNNittendA.....(when he says Inba alive)

Inba: aNNaNai kolla vachchitteengaLA
(embraces him, when he has a menacing gun )
BR: paththu vayasula en appanai kattaiyaala adichchu konnEn....un vEdhanai enakku puriyudhu

That is as oily as it gets

tharudhalai avanai thalaila suttirukkaNumdA :lol:

As far as extracting performances goes ManiRatnam is in a league of his own :bow:

[Avadi to America]

Sindhu Bairavi was the best movie of that year and Suhasini and Sivakumar's acting were impeccable. Until then both had been only average in acting terms.
SB surely deserves to up there among one of the finest Tamil movies ever made although I understand that the subject matter may bring discomfort to many viewers.


I am just wondering it. did you see the movie "Roosappu ravikaikari" released in 1979? He acted as an Illiterate who happened to marry a educated urban girl. and then the story shows how their married life goes something like.

[thilak4life]

Sivakumar? Always thought of him to be a limited actor. I couldn't make out the difference from his act in Paasa paravaigal or SB or what have you. The man is a broken radioplayer in his emotional set-pieces. I thought he struggled a bit in Roosappu ravikaikari (he acted a bit like a retard than a village dunce), and it's been a while since I've seen Marupakkam, I was a kid then, so my estimation of his acting would have been sufficiently lenient. Maybe he gets noticed for his lead pairing with top heroines. A strange comparison, but I'd say Delhi Ganesh is head and shoulders above Sivakumar and I'd say that with my eyes closed(:P). Delhi comes off authentic even when KB writes dramatic lines and blotchy subplots for him...

[groucho070]

Interesting view, Thilak. I wrote something similar. Not sure about Delhi Ganesh being better though. But Siva Kumar is just so and so, good for certain parts...if not he would have been strong in the industry today.

[crajkumar_be]

A strange comparison, but I'd say Delhi Ganesh is head and shoulders above Sivakumar and I'd say that with my eyes closed(:P). Delhi comes off authentic even when KB writes dramatic lines and blotchy subplots for him...
No comparison whatsoever. Delhi G is in a different universe :notworthy:

[joe]

Delhi G is in a different universe :notworthy:

Avar eppavum mappula thaan iruppar-nnu keLvi patten .athai sollureengala :lol:

Btw ,Delhi G is a great actor. 8-)

[thilak4life]

A strange comparison, but I'd say Delhi Ganesh is head and shoulders above Sivakumar and I'd say that with my eyes closed(:P). Delhi comes off authentic even when KB writes dramatic lines and blotchy subplots for him...
No comparison whatsoever. Delhi G is in a different universe :notworthy:

:yes:

I didn't mean to compare. But I can't understand the higher status that Sivakumar gets. People claim he is a "dramatic actor" and all. And one invariably tends to bring a natural like Delhi G, because he is subdued at everything he does, especially the heavier dramatic roles! I hope the coming "character actors" look up to Delhi G, and not that caricaturer Sivakumar. :)

[joe]

But I can't understand the higher status that Sivakumar gets.

Obviously ,It is because he got Hero status .. Even better actors like Bhalaiah ,Ranga Rao are not given better status than many heroes of their time ,though They are miles ahead in acting talent.

[thilak4life]

But I can't understand the higher status that Sivakumar gets.

Obviously ,It is because he got Hero status .. Even better actors like Bhalaiah ,Ranga Rao are not given better status than many heroes of their time ,though They are miles ahead in acting talent.

I know. That's why I said "he gets noticed for his lead pairing with top heroines." I'm talking about waxing eloquent about his "acting". :)

[MADDY]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DTMsU3oOXwg&feature=related

old interview of Maniratnam during Guru times......talks abt songs/music in his movies.......he clearly means Rahman is the best suit for his movies.........looking back at it, Mani moving to rahman choosing synth over acoustics has become a event in the world movies... 8-)

[AudazJay]

mounarAgam - nice film with some irritations here & there. The worst one being the picturization of 'pani vizhum iravu':-(

I'm not sure what came first nAyakan or MR. If nAyakan came later, then we can safely assume that Mani has improved by leaps and bounds by that time (on song picturizations).

He sure did improve a lot since his Mouna Ragam days. I don't know about his earlier films, but the first time I heard a similar range song and was left stunned soon after, was Rukumani, Rukumani.

I was 7 or 8 yrs old when the song was released...and i used to love hearing to it esp the part when d drum beats comes in.

More than anything, my neighbor had a teenage daughter by the same name and I used to sing this particular song to her. I never understood why she hated me doing it...until my dad told me that it was a first-night song. I never understood much Tamil back then, you see :oops2:

Anyway, Rukumani remains as one of my favorite songs...and I love the picturisation, esp the scene where Arvind is pushed into the room and the camera focused on Madhu sleeping on the floor. The expression on Arvind's face was priceless :happydance:

[AudazJay]

Divya - This character then became Mani's stock character. His leading ladies more often than not become some version of Divya - save for manisha's characters in Bombay and DilSe this statement still holds true.

I beg to differ. The uniqueness and complexity of Divya was not apparent in Mani's subsequent characters.

Madhubala had it in her in Roja but the rest of the heroines were more one dimensional.

I stand corrected here but i felt that in Mouna Ragam, MR has somewhat managed to grasp a woman's point of view on love and life. Nevertheless, this element was clearly missing in his subsequent films.

[AudazJay]

A strange comparison, but I'd say Delhi Ganesh is head and shoulders above Sivakumar and I'd say that with my eyes closed(:P). Delhi comes off authentic even when KB writes dramatic lines and blotchy subplots for him...
No comparison whatsoever. Delhi G is in a different universe :notworthy:

:yes:

I didn't mean to compare. But I can't understand the higher status that Sivakumar gets. People claim he is a "dramatic actor" and all. And one invariably tends to bring a natural like Delhi G, because he is subdued at everything he does, especially the heavier dramatic roles! I hope the coming "character actors" look up to Delhi G, and not that caricaturer Sivakumar. :)

A cousin of mine once brought us a DVD (I can't remember the title though) whereby Sivakumar was the hero and kamal was the villain :omg:

I can't exactly remember the storyline, but i figured that it was about 3 sisters who rented a place in the hero's house and subsequently, all of them fell in love with him. (How ironic :rant: ) The movie ended with the girls' marriage to other men and Sivakumar was left to ponder on his life alone.

My cuz and I had a hearty laugh at Sivakumar's performance when all of a sudden my mom joined in and said that Sivakumar happened to be one of the best looking men in the tamil cinema back then! I nearly choked! :frightened:

On the other hand, I'll definitely vouch on your statement about DG. He's totally remarkable! Loved him in Michael Madana Kamarajan and Nayagan :yes:

[P_R]

(I can't remember the title though) sollathaan ninaikkiREn directed by K Balachander

[NOV]

when all of a sudden my mom joined in and said that Sivakumar happened to be one of the best looking men in the tamil cinema back then!yes... in fact the only one. (leaving his acting aside.)

[kid-glove]

There is no poll in this thread.

Here's a suggestion:

The best choreographed/conceived meesick video in a Mani Ratnam film. I'll start with the obvious ones:
"Sundari kannal oru seidhi"
"Narumugaiye"
"Vidai Kodu engal Naadae"

[crajkumar_be]

Kood combinesan! and a tough poll too...

[kid-glove]

Two more:
"Iravu nilavu", (this song mostly due to Ilaiyan)
"Mandram vandha Thendralukku "

Very tough.

[P_R]

"Sundari kannal oru seidhi"
unseletted....maNdaiyin koNdaiyin

rAjA rAjAdhi rAjan indha
All songs in AN for that matter

Chinna chinna Aasai... trendsetter for eroini intros

more to come