Violence against women

[pavalamani pragasam]

Violence against Women

One news item in today’s newspaper caught my attention and has set me thinking. It was an announcement in connection with the International Day for the Elimination of Violence Against Women observed on November 25th.
While appreciating the magnanimous purpose for observing such a day I could hear a feeble voice from the group of hen-pecked husbands and “jilted” lovers requesting a day be set aside for elimination of violence against men. I could not help recalling the evergreen favourite comedy scenes in TV channels of Kovai Sarala thrashing Vadivelu.
But my random ruminations led me finally to certain discoveries.
On a serious note, I remembered those gallant knights of Sir Arthur’s Round Table. The dearth of such GENTLEMEN is accutely felt today, there is no doubt about it. How lucky were those “damsels in distress” of those bygone days! Today ghastly molestations can take place in public places right in front of an audience.
Why is such violence prevalent against women? Let us leave alone the primitive races living in the deep jungles of Africa. But in today’s global context of many enlightened races interacting electronically how do we account for its presence everywhere?
This is a deep subject for research and reparation. Why are women subjected to acts of violence? And by whom? It is not at all fair that the “fair sex” should suffer in the hands of unfair men, unfairly thought of as the stronger sex.
Ever since the days of creation Eve has been thought of as Adam’s toy. The Adam kid has never grown up. He is becoming more and more wicked. The cunning male tires not improvising methods of harassing the hapless female. Is it a fault of the hormones?
Male domination provided way for chauvinistic practices keeping women as second-grade citizens down the ages. In the early stages of civilisation societal customs were rather crude. Refinement came with the passage of time. Gross injustices to women were rectified. Sati was abolished. Child marriages were made illegal. Social stigma attached to widowhood was removed. Widows found the climate changing in favour of their remarriage. Domestic violence and eve-teasing became punishable crimes. The ignominious dowry system came under the stern scrutiny of law. Yet, violence against women continues.
The free globe-trotting modern woman is educated, enlightened and self-supporting. Still the respect that is her due is eluding. Why? How many men support the women achievers ungrudgingly? How is it the male ego just refuses to accept the fact of gender equality?
In such a scenario I strongly believe the Media plays the villain. It corrodes the good values that are necessary for happy, healthy human interaction. Instead of arriving at higher levels of regard and respect for man’s complementary part ie woman, man gropes in his short-sighted vision of woman as an entity of mere flesh and blood, stripped of intelligence and integrity.
His predicament is highly aggravated by the Mammonaic Media. The treacherous Media throws too many baits in front of woman’s vanity, its cunning guiles seek to shroud her in veils of obscenity. She has succumbed, an unsuspecting prey forgetting her native sensitivity and propriety. Mistaken goals have paved the way to her pain and loss.
If she must overcome violence against her she must find her moorings, meaningful ambitions and undying values. She must outwit the vicious, multi-headed Media demon and prove her worth. Awake woman! Awake!
:|

[Hemant Trived1]

Dear Friends,

One thing I really hate about Tamil Movies is, ALL MALES INCLUDING HERO , VILLAIN TO COMEDIANS SLAP WOMEN.
:evil: :evil: :evil:
I am always pained when women are slapped in movies. Most of you might have observed this thing.

It is high time people come out in open condemning this sort of treatment of women in Tamil movies.

Machoness has to be limited to beating the villains and anti-socials.
AND NOT WOMEN . :evil:

YATRA NARYASTU PUJYATE
TATRA VASANTI DEVATA.

[nirosha sen]

Violence isn't just confined to physical abuse alone but the day to day mental and verbal abuse that many women go thru. It happens in most households and it reduces the stoutest heart to a quivering, suffering mess!! It is this constant beratement that is distasteful and yet it continues in all strata of society ......

[Sandeep]

In a movie hero breaks a fish pot and the fish is shown flapping. Another scene he slaps his wife. There was huge outcry about the first scene but nothing about the second scene.

Its a shame that we who consider women as Shakthi treat them like this. And women also are responcible for being silent about the suffering of fellow women.

More alarming is the fact that many of these domestic violence happen even among highly educated couples.

[blahblah]

Pavalamani says the new women is educated and self supporting.Sandeep says violence happens even amongst the well educated.And both statements are true.The only difference being the educated woman is more likely to stand up against violence.These social goals can only be achieved by education and awareness.See the Tamil movies,as Hemantji pointed out,where it appears a bit more manly to beat up his wife :o .And I remember my mother telling me the day before my marriage that a real man doesn't beat his wife taking advantage of the extra physical power given to us by God to protect our women :) .And she even warned me that if I ever did it she will be the one who will take me to the cops. :roll:

[pavalamani pragasam]

Congratulations, blahblah! You are a MAN in the right sense of the word! Your mother should be proud of you. My thanks to her!

[Sandeep]

We need more mothers like blahblah's and ofcource men like him. I, sure, am encouraged.

But as society whats the solution. Education helps ok, it would help solve almost all the social problems, but that is taking a hell lot of time. Unless people feel that they are not going to get away with any such behavior no immediate solution can be found. Like in blahblah's case he knows his mother will not let him get away :lol:

[Gayathri]

Cant agree more!! The state of woman in tamil movies is awful! she is more of a sex symbol. There arent many tamil movies where woman are portrayed clever and intelligent. But movies are not the only place to some extent movies do reflect the true state of woman in India.

I got married a year ago. My mother-in-law lives next door to her elder sister and family. My mother-in laws sister has a son and he is married too. When we went to visit them next door I noticed some thing strange the daughter in law of the house sat on the floor while we were all sat on the sofa. Me not realising the situation grabbed her by hand and asked her to sit next to me but she still would'nt sit on the sofa. When we came back home my MIL told me that she is not allowed to sit on the sofa, while her MIL is sat on it, and she added that the daughter in law was a very respectful person. But I found it very offensive. Why cant she sit on the sofa? why does she need to sit on the floor? isnt this also a form of violence?

[NOV]

It is so heartwarming to read what the men of this forum have written. With the respect they give to their women-folk, this trait will be carried on to the next generation and soon we will have mutual respect between both sexes.

Gayathri's episode is terrible. Unfortunately, women tend to be thier own enemies. Sad.

[Sandeep]

Gayathri you can use your relation with your MIL (which seems to be great) as an example. I am sure your MIL will help you in this. May be you have the chance to change someones life.

[M2J]

Dear Friends,

One thing I really hate about Tamil Movies is, ALL MALES INCLUDING HERO , VILLAIN TO COMEDIANS SLAP WOMEN.
:evil: :evil: :evil:
I am always pained when women are slapped in movies. Most of you might have observed this thing.



its not alright unless they deserve it :twisted:

[Roshan]

Unfortunately, women tend to be thier own enemies. Sad.

Well said NOV!!! Even though I'm a woman I have to agree with you fully ! It all depends on our own thinking and how a person is brought up and how she/he is guided.


BlahBlah,

Hats off to your Mom!! We need more mothers like her! and not expecting the media to change the world!!

[blahblah]

Well guys,Probably its that my mom brought us all up as a single parent after my father passed away when we were all in School :cry: .That sense of independence and faith in the ability of women could have helped her :) .And I tell you I have seen many such mothers who do not bring up their sons as hammers and daughters as nails 8) .

[Gayathri]

Gayathri you can use your relation with your MIL (which seems to be great) as an example. I am sure your MIL will help you in this. May be you have the chance to change someones life.

Funnily enough the daughter in law doesnt seem to complain!! :roll: and there are loads of things in our culture I'd like to see a change in. :)

[Roshan]

there are loads of things in our culture I'd like to see a change in. :)

Gayathri, you've got a point here ! I think we should try and discuss more on this cultural aspects rather than trying to find 'lame' excuses for such problems ;)

[Gayathri]

there are loads of things in our culture I'd like to see a change in. :)

Gayathri, you've got a point here ! I think we should try and discuss more on this cultural aspects rather than trying to find 'lame' excuses for such problems ;)

yeah roshan! State of woman in india is very pitiable things like widow remarriage, relationship or another marraige after divorce etc these things are always seen in a bad way. I totally agree with the orthanukku oruthi, but if the oruthan is not anymore why cant she fall in love or marry innoruthan? why is this always wrong? I sometimes feel that Indian culture is indian woman's own enemy. If a woman remarries does that mean she has lost her morality?Our culture emphasises morality and chastity for woman. But what exactly is being morale? What exactly is culture?

[Sandeep]

Most of the marriages are arranged and parents see it has their responcibility. They have pressure from society also. But once women get married parents are freed from the burden (its a fact that marrying of daughters is a real burden on the poor parents in Indian condisions :( ).

In case of widows they themselves have to find a groom which is new for them. It becomes more difficult depending on your In-laws and if you have children.

But now a days if you find your groom I dont think the society will object to it .

[Bdolf Hilter]

XYZ

[Sandeep]

Why feminism has not caught popular support in India. I can understand a man opposing it. But why no support even from a large minority of women?

In western countries there are feminist groups who keep the govt engaged on women issues. Ofcource we cannot replant the same consept in India because of cultural difference, but some sort of Indian equivalant.

[Bdolf Hilter]

XYZ

[camille sundram]

Sandeep, I am surprised that you are unawares of feminist groups in India. They are very active and very vocal. The problem is whether the Government and Powers That Be, male-dominated, listens to them.

Being a feminist does not mean that we want to belittle or insult men. Being a feminist means being aware of the discrimination we face as a result of our gender, and doing something about it.

Only uneducated, uncultured, immature, unintelligent men will feel intimidated by us. An intelligent, confident man, secure in himself as a man and as an individual will never feel threatened by a woman. In fact he would enjoy it and if she is his spouse, would be proud of her.

The majority of Asian men feel intimidated, that is why they are chauvinistic.

[camille sundram]

Bdolf Hilter

I am sorry to say this and I know that you have misspelt the name, but I find your avatar and name highly-disturbing. Why have you chosen it?

[Bdolf Hilter]

XYZ

[Sandeep]

Sandeep, I am surprised that you are unawares of feminist groups in India. They are very active and very vocal.

Yes there are many feminist groups in India. But they dont have a support base.

Governments are not intimidated by the feminist person(active and vocal) but rather the support they have among the larger female population(who are not active and vocal). That is exactly where Indian feminist have failed, to get the support of the common women.


feminist does not mean that we

So you are a feminist. Tell me one thing. There are two kinds of discrimination one against women and the other supporting women. Most feminists seem to support the second one while oppose the first. Isnt that hypocrisy?

[Sandeep]

Bdolf Hilter

I am sorry to say this and I know that you have misspelt the name, but I find your avatar and name highly-disturbing. Why have you chosen it?

I think "Bdolf Hilter" is the alter ego of the real person behind him. He does not talk all "goody goody" but if you ignore the roughness in his words you will find a very serious consept.

[blahblah]

Hum!Every one has the right to choose his user name.It may look a bit funny some times ,but that is what adds fun to the hub.We all like to be a bit different,don't we?

[camille sundram]

Bdolf Hilter

I am sorry to say this and I know that you have misspelt the name, but I find your avatar and name highly-disturbing. Why have you chosen it?

You are welcome to say anything to me, only if you are a hindu radical supporting these RSS thugs then please never ever adress me.

The irritation is very much intended. I have not mispelt anything. First you see the devil in uniform that ever lived on earth. Then the name Bdolf Hilter: The devil's name was Adolf Hitler. There is no name like Bdolf. A is followed by B. Adolf's rule is over, now it is Bdolf's time. Bdolf is entirely different from Adolf. That is what it is saying. I know I should not have taken that devil's likeness but you have to be a greater evil than a devil to stand up against rasicm and religious fanatism.
Bdolf is the goodie chasing out the arian superiority.

Not at all, I am against fanaticism and extremism in any religion, Hinduism included, although I am a Hindu myself. It's just that every time I see that devil, I get so angry, more so since I have been researching on WW2 and the horrors still give me nightmares. Thanks for the explanation. Much appreciated.

[camille sundram]

Hum!Every one has the right to choose his user name.It may look a bit funny some times ,but that is what adds fun to the hub.We all like to be a bit different,don't we?

I am not denying anyone's right to choose their names but I will object strongly if that person's name is racist or sexist or tasteless for example KKK or Wife-beater. It is not funny and I don't want that kind of "difference" in a public forum. I am sure I am not the only one.

Bdolf's name disturbed me as I thought it was idolising the devil reincarnate. Now that he has explained his reasons, which I think are fantastic, I am relieved.

[Bdolf Hilter]

Not at all, I am against fanaticism and extremism in any religion, Hinduism included, although I am a Hindu myself.
We have more in common as you assume. 8)


It's just that every time I see that devil, I get so angry, more so since I have been researching on WW2 and the horrors still give me nightmares. Thanks for the explanation. Much appreciated.
All that glitters is not gold so said somebody very long ago! Don't let illusions take control. Regarding your nightmares: be a regular hubber and I'll blow away your nightmares, better spoken I don't let you sleep to avoid your nightmares. Just think of me - I know you can't resist me - :lol:

[blahblah]

Camille,This fellow Bdolf himself is more disturbing than his username :lol: :lol: :lol: .After all,'what is ina name?'[Who said it?Shakespeare?].And on fanaticism,I agree with you both:That is the last thing I would like to see on this hub. 8)

[davie]

the answer to this thread is very simple. Thamizh or telugu or any place in this world is with the same issue. I will say in 40% households of men dominate women. the other 40% women dominate men. Only 20% of households, people understand each other and live peacefully.
For people who say women are physically, mentally abused in tamil nadu. Do u people say this because ur mom and dad were not living in peace? just fighting with each other??
I u all like the western concept of dating and marrying, even in their culture nice men lead peaceful life. But some guys who are always looking for women just divorce the wife in less than 1 year of marriage. Especially in USA these incidents are very very common. If india becomes like USA, then there will be about 80% of single women with kids as in the USA, then they start searching for a friend + husband to take care of their kid, to hang around etc.
do u people want such kind of things to happen in india????
Because of the culture in india, many guys dont have girl friends in india. If guys have to date and marry then no single guy will be leftout without a girl friend. Everyone will be looking for girls lol, like these americans.
one of my american friend was quite sad about his culture because gals do abortions even at the age of 12 or less than 15. So sad about that country.

[Reena]

Bdolf,
Who are you calling kids?

There is only two reasons a man would hit a woman.
1 She is sooooo annoying! that she's pushed him over his limits.
2 He is too scared to fight with guys, so he fulfilles that area of his life on a woman, and there is a word for those guys.
"Pathetic" :x

[blahblah]

What fun!I wonder how will u all contribute to the cause :? .Davie,show me the 40 %houses where women dominate! :o And you Reena,Do you really understand the causes for domestic violence?How about an alcoholic and a drug addict?Don't you think poverty,inequality and the traditional belief that women should stay a step below men contributes to violence when egoistic men find their women not so willing?Don't you think polygamy and cheating are reasons? :? Hear this:A couple of yrs back an interesting case came before a Banagalore court:A man killed his wife with an axe when she kept asking him for money.It became clear in court that the man was a bonded labourer!He borrowed Rs.5000 for his daughter's marriage from the local landlord on the condition that he will work for him for six months.During this time he was allowed a daily ration of four raggi balls a day!The evidence in court proved that he brought most of the food home for his wife and most of the days he was starving and working on the field! :( Consider the psychological reasons in some cases when one of the partners is mentally ill!Do you still stick to your two reason theory? :wink: We move forward when we understand things a little better. :lol:

[davie]

yea there are cheap morons who are behind money. many times money is one of the driving factors for all evil.

[Reena]

blahblah wrote,
Don't you think poverty,inequality and the traditional belief that women should stay a step below men contributes to violence when egoistic men find their women not so willing?

Well, that would be a case, where the man is pathetic.

blahblah wrote,
A man killed his wife with an axe when she kept asking him for money.It became clear in court that the man was a bonded labourer!He borrowed Rs.5000 for his daughter's marriage from the local landlord on the condition that he will work for him for six months.During this time he was allowed a daily ration of four raggi balls a day!The evidence in court proved that he brought most of the food home for his wife and most of the days he was starving and working on the field!

That would be the first one, the wife who keeps annoying the husband.

Well, maybe not a two reason theory, maybe 3. The third one being, psychological problems for one of them, or both.

[Querida]

[quote="blahblah"]How about an alcoholic and a drug addict?Don't you think poverty,inequality and the traditional belief that women should stay a step below men contributes to violence when egoistic men find their women not so willing?Don't you think polygamy and cheating are reasons?

So very true blahblah thank you for stating these reasons...im sorry Reena but i dont think that because someone is annoying is ever an excuse to hurt them in anyway.... :o the very sad thing about abuse is that women cause other women pain...it is mother-in-laws that encourage sons to discipline their wives and daughter-in-laws are no better either...some having heard so many horror stories disrespect their mother-in-law from the very beginning.. :x whatever the reason i will never believe that any reason as trivial as annoyance, attitude, rudeness, even lying is any reason to be abused....words do enough damage must hands and tools join in as well? :(

[a.ratchasi]

And I remember my mother telling me the day before my marriage that a real man doesn't beat his wife taking advantage of the extra physical power given to us by God to protect our women :) .And she even warned me that if I ever did it she will be the one who will take me to the cops. :roll:

Bravo to your mom, blahblah.

[camille sundram]

So you are a feminist. Tell me one thing. There are two kinds of discrimination one against women and the other supporting women. Most feminists seem to support the second one while oppose the first. Isnt that hypocrisy?[/quote]

See, you missed my point. I said I am a feminist in the sense that I stand up for my rights - I am not one for the superiority of sexes as I believe that we are equal - after all the Shiva-Sakthi concept is a fundamental belief in our religion. If you need to label me, then "human rights activist" is a better description. 8)

I don't know about "hypocrisy" - it is the backlash of years of oppression - rabid feminists therefore see themselves as independent of men and can survive, in fact thrive without men. That's their belief, but basic rights as the right to vote and right to drive that are automatically given to men as birthrights are/were not available to women. So of course women resented that, and some went to the other extreme.

[davie]

@cute ratchasi
not really ratchasi. real men are brave yet they are courteous.
they command respect.not like dummies. lol

[Shekhar]

I have seen very decent men hitting their wives ocassionally and feel ashamed later, because they could not take wagging of their tongue. Women know how to hurt men especially their husbands through their tongue. Men can never match this. Husbands who are not strong enough to withstand this, breakdown and hit their wives.
More decent the husband is, more is the wife's tongue wagging because she can get away with it.
Solution is simple but tough. It always takes two to have a fight. Don't respond to whatever the wife says. Nothing makes a woman more furious than to see a husband calm like Budha when she is letting a flurry on him!
Husbands, try at home, you can really enjoy it!! :D

But what I am talking above is elitist idea of violence.
Domestic violence in the real world is beyond imagination and comprehension of people who sit before the computers to spend time :cry:

[a.ratchasi]

Well-said Shekhar!

Problem lies at both ends of the spectrum.

And davie, :)

[davie]

yep real men never beat their wives. but they are not dummies.
i know my uncle who washes dishes daily. my aunt just commands/orders him to wash dishes.
talented real men never give an opportunity to fight, or they know how to divert a fight into a mutually agreable decision.
beating and tongue lashing are just crazy things whichwill spoil the relation. According to you, Don't respond to whatever the wife says. Its similar to the common saying the best way to win the argument is not to argue. yea if u want to be abuddha dats also fine. infact most of us are buddhas when some employer rebukes us. :lol:
@cute ratchasi. pls tell us what u think.

[Querida]

very true davie :)

but you know just as the boss riles you up...that also at times means y'all come home and pass on the negativeness...and dont worry im not saying that us ladies are all good either..i know some open their mouth the moment the husband sets foot thru the door.... :x

guess we all need a lesson in buddhism...but hell call me selfish but if i enter Nirvana there is no way im going to come out and wait till 'everything to last piece of grass enters with you' :wink:

[davie]

wow i like ur quote corida and ratchasi where are u

[a.ratchasi]

....that also at times means y'all come home and pass on the negativeness...

I was succumbing to the above at one point of time.
Even a non-issue would annoy me to the max.
Fortunately, I realised what I was doing and took control of the whole situation.

The moment I reach home, I make it a point to inform whoever at home that I had a bad day in the office.
They would understand that and leave me all alone.

Within no time, negativity was left at the doorstep of my office!

And just for the record, the cause of stress is not because of my boss and no she is not one of the hubbers! :wink:

[davie]

honey u should stop worrying too much. Life is not for worrying. Just because of worrying or getting frustrated no change is gona result. Just think what can be done about the situation and how to tackle that problem. If u want help always consult or talk to some sweet persons likeu

[mandangi]

In India even well educated people harass women. In Vijayawada famous psychiatrist Dr Indla Rama Subba Reddy raped a women belonging to backward community. He also used to harass his wife. His wife divorced him.

[Querida]

education does not constitute intelligence...intelligence does not constitute feeling....

hence i am not a bit surprised that educated people would do so....we can only hope that in education they also learn of what is truly important in life....though to blindly expect it and then be surprised just separates us from the tragedy...

[Shekhar]

education does not constitute intelligence...intelligence does not constitute feeling....

hence i am not a bit surprised that educated people would do so....we can only hope that in education they also learn of what is truly important in life....though to blindly expect it and then be surprised just separates us from the tragedy...

How true Querida..

Concept of education in ancient India was holistic. Education meant imbibing the right vaues, skills and knowledge to handle one's life efficiently. It was not simply learning what is right and what is wrong, but acquiring the capability to judge and decide what is right and what is wrong, what nurtures life and what destroys.
Woefully, today, perhaps allover the world, education means only acquisition of knoweldge (more bookish than useful), which hardly helps one to decide right path of life.
Whatever values and philosophy I have derived to handle my life, whatever little wisdom I have acquired, has been invariably AFTER my formal education. through voluntary reading.
So sadly, today 'educated' doesnot mean any thing of personality attitudes and maturity of a person.... :(

[Querida]

that people atleast realize this and go so far as to make efforts on their own to learn more of this 'informal education' is certainly encouraging :D

[davie]

querida ur becoming cute day by day. i mean ur avtar 8)

[blahblah]

If the ultimate aim of education is not character formation we will only end up making powerful villains.Last month we in Maharashtra heard about a sensational case of domestic violence.Deepak Pandey,aide de camp to the Governor Mohammed Fazal,was booked for cruelty to his wife Nidhi Pandey,[who too is an IAS officer in good position] mainly for dowry harrassment,including holding his service revolver to her head threatening to shoot her.The police simply didn't take any action at first though the lady registered two cases with them.It was only when a group of women IAS officers stormed into the DGP's office that they were forced to do something.In most shools,there is a separate paper for value education or moral science,but it doesn't serve much purpose.

[Querida]

querida ur becoming cute day by day. i mean ur avtar 8)

alright i get it i will change it tomorrow! :D
now all i want to say is sayonara!

[mandangi]

education does not constitute intelligence...intelligence does not constitute feeling....

hence i am not a bit surprised that educated people would do so....we can only hope that in education they also learn of what is truly important in life....though to blindly expect it and then be surprised just separates us from the tragedy...

In those days i also thought that well educated people are well civilised. After seeing people like Dr Rama Subba Reddy i changed my opinion.

[blahblah]

Who's that little beauty you are talking about,Mandangi? :?

[Sandeep]

What are most common types or Violence against women.

Let me put some down.

1) Domestic violence (Physical)
2) Domestic violence (Phycological)
3) Dowry related violence (May come under #1 but this one has a face to itself)
4) Rape (Inside and outside marraige)
5) Eveteasing
6) Abortion or killing girl child because of her gender.

Anything else gals and guys.

[Surya]

I think you got em all.

[Querida]

What are most common types or Violence against women.

Let me put some down.

1) Domestic violence (Physical)
2) Domestic violence (PSycHological),
3) Dowry related violence (May come under #1 but this one has a face to itself)
4) Rape (Inside and outside marraige)
5) Eveteasing
6) Abortion or killing girl child because of her gender.

Anything else gals and guys.

no...but it's sickening to see how many forms of violence against women there are...

[unhappyboy]

Please stop watching male dominated serials especially Malayalam
serials which actually believe in propagating violence against women. One casual look at any Malayalam serial can give some
understanding to the viewer about how biased they are towards
women.

I believe no sex should dominate the other . Everyone is equal
in todays world. Inequality is a thing of the past!!!

[Querida]

Please stop watching male dominated serials especially Malayalam
serials which actually believe in propagating violence against women. One casual look at any Malayalam serial can give some
understanding to the viewer about how biased they are towards
women.

I believe no sex should dominate the other . Everyone is equal
in todays world. Inequality is a thing of the past!!!

thanx for that...but i digress from addressing you because of your username...we all have our worries...i have read of yours as well...just hope for the best and dont be so blind to faith...you must also take iniative...i know i am not mature nor wise enough to give such advice...but i think you should listen to Malligai and change that username ok? :)

[pavalamani pragasam]

Coming back to the hub after a long vacation I am happy to go through the valuable thoughts posted here. A healthy trend towards more awareness to the matter shall surely lead to beneficial results. For a very long time a sad tradition has been allowed to continue in our society.
Let me be precise: there has been a marked gender inequality in the family which naturally extended into the society. Male population enjoyed partiality; their foibles were condoned; an unquestioned priority was given to them. Mothers, grandmothers, aunts, sisters also joined in this conspiracy. The men and boys were treated like a superior species. It is futile to go into the causes for this practice.
But lately with social reformation and enlightenment, with equal opportunities of education and employment for both the sexes women today find themselves in a very favourable environment. But the men find it hard to get out of their habits of superiority deeply embedded in their psyche. In course of time, let us hope, men shall get accustomed to the normal, fair share of respect that women deserve.
The family plays a big role in bringing about this change. We need more mothers like blah blah’s. Educational institutions should think it their duty to inculcate good values in young minds.
Last but not least, MEDIA should stop projecting women as cheap sex symbols.
Apropos this subject, let me reproduce the thoughts expressed in a recent newspaper article titled, “Perils of peer pressure”. A study of youths aged 16-24 years from (1)slums,(2)college-going students found out the masculinity norms they had. Their ideal of a “real man” was one who was dominant, aggressive, sexually powerful, potent and controls women. They expected the “real woman” to be submissive, both sexually and otherwise, and to to drink, become addicted to substance abuse, visit sex workers, get into fights and harass women- proving themselves to be a man is found important. These young men are under a lot of pressure to subscribe to their group’s masculinity norms.
Aren’t these expectations, the violence-provoking trends being aided and abetted by the tinsel world and its smaller but more powerful version- the television?

[visu]

Hi pavalamani nice thoughts.
But i think many women too want a husband who is superior to them in all aspects. Nowadays the first think they look for in man is he should be employed in better job than hers. they dont give character first preference.

How a man treats woman basically comes from how he was brought up in family. Its does'nt mean if he is highly educated he will be good. All these things come from heart not from brain. When i was a kid my parents always thought me to share everything and love my sister(if i smack my sister my mum will smack me twice hi hi). So it got embedded in my mind . i feel very angry if anybody beats up a woman.
But some familes do show partiality right from kids. One of aunt she always scold her daughter no matter what her son do to his sis.
There are more educated women out there. They could start imbibe these values into their kids.And dont put all the blame on men.

NOTE:- don't expect indian men to behave like white men. You know what they expect(yeah they talk soft & nice) and after they Get(###) what they want they will run away.

[pavalamani pragasam]

What Visu is quite true. Two points are clear: our men are different; family values taught from childhood are important.
I also agree that women are guilty of bringing about whatever unpleasantness we may find in our lives.( It is a known fact here that my sympathy is for the male kind! :) . I feel men are sometimes more wronged than wronging. :( .
Even in today's "Open page" of The Hindu there is a very sensible article on the present day woman's freedom- is it a blessing or bane. The write-up echoes my ideas, it has even almost quoted my words in my former posting here, "Pollution" :!:

[r_kk]

Except few human segment (example a tribal society in China), all other societies are filled with thought of men supremacy. Even after education, women are bonded with so many invisible and visible rules set by the men, mostly derived from existing social beliefs called culture and religions. All the beauty contests, make-up advertisements, cat-walks and in many forms, nice brain washing is going on to keep the female as lesser human being. Women freedom wish also today commercialized and totally misguided. Great brain washing is done also by giving unrealistic holy status (many Tamil movies, you can find…). Without coming out those real clutches, there is no freedom. I can write more about the core problems without beating around the bush, but I am worried whether this thread is meant for that or not.

[pavalamani pragasam]

Please go ahead, r_kk! what else do you think is this forum for?
I wish to have healthy discussions about gullible women being duped around the world by avaricious, lecherous agencies. What else could be wished for more than true dignity of womanhood to be established?

[r_kk]

You might have heard the story of Ameena, a young child from Hyderabad married to an Old Arab seikh who had been stopped from flying from India by air hostess. It is not a just once incident. Deccan Chronicle revealed that still lot of Hyderabadi Muslim girls are virtually sold off by poor parents to rich old Saudis every year. If you read the following article you will know how serious is this issue.

Extract from The Asian Age (August 2000):
"The Wakf Board has no records regarding the number of marriages. But brokers in the Old City areas here say that on an average, 20 such marriages are performed in the Old City every month... Police officials say that matters come to light only when the girl-victim comes forward to lodge a complaint. The Arabs arrive at Hyderabad on a short trip, drive straight to the homes of the brides pre-fixed by brokers, and are married soon after. The parents are paid amounts ranging between Rs 10,000 to 50,000. They take their brides to their hotel rooms and dump these hapless girls after a week or so, and then catch flight home."
Also note how low can khazis as well as our own people could go to make money, these vultures are feeding on the flesh of our young sisters. Instead of fighting against these, the All India Muslim Personal Board (AIMPLB from Andra Pradesh) has decided to file a petition against before the Supreme Court on extension of the Child Marriage Restraint Act to Muslims, saying that as per the Shariat, a girl could marry after reaching puberty (i.e., medically after the age of 10~14).

Ok, let us come to the core subject. What Islam says about such acts? I don’t want to explain now and hoping that you will find answer to the following questions in internet.
1. How many times the prophet married? What are the situations?
2. What was the age of Alisha when she got married and what age she had become mother?

The above is just a tip of ice berg. For Christian and Hindu also, I have so many questions. The meaning of various viratham (Karva Choath etc, Is there any viratham for longevity of wife performed by husband?), Why God created man first in his own form and female from man (first dependency) etc… so many.

After all, do you know what happened to Amena? She got married to very old man (more than twice her age) few years back. Why our feminists are not acted to save now? What was stopping them? Are these feminist really act for cause or trying to gain fame when the issues are hot?

If you find my postings are not part of healthy discussions, please inform me. I will stop posting further.

[pavalamani pragasam]

Well, r_kk, you have highlighted the atrocious incidents that are, as you say, are the tip of the iceberg. The practices in all the religions only expose the state of "civilisation" we have attained in reality, in spite of all the advances we have made in science & technology. Lifestyles have changed, amenities have multiplied, luxurious living is the blessing(!?) of today's world,it seems. Falsities, blind beliefs, abnoxious rites continue to thrive in the "religious" lives of people. There are activists groups doing their mite to alleviate the sufferings & to check the downtrend. As I had said in the beginning of the thread UN is also advocating the cause of eradicating violence against women. It needs the utmost cooperation of all the strata of society throughout the world to bring in a really decent habit of cohabiting of man & woman, a life of fruitful understanding, meaningful existence. Besides the outstanding outrageous incidents, even the general pattern of familial values are not fully conducive to enhance the dignity of womankind. How shall we change this scenario? How shall be better the mindsets of people to accept gender equality. Ideas towards this end are welcome!

[hehehewalrus]

Nice thread. But one of the reasons why women are exploited is due to women themselves. There are more girls these days interested in the glamour fields rather than science and research. This is surprising since for years, girls have always performed better than boys in all streams of education.
Women need to overcome the obstacles imposed by society to pursue their ambitions.

[Querida]

NOTE:- don't expect indian men to behave like white men. You know what they expect(yeah they talk soft & nice) and after they Get(###) what they want they will run away.

well Visu i dont know about your note...it kind of undermines what you said earlier...again some ppl have found true love with other races...and again there are quite alot of indian men who would run away too...and the same can be said of women as well...maybe white gurls more so...because for them it is in public but shamefully indian gurls do the same...there are many of us who do look at character before all else...yet there are many more who only look at education and wealth...and that is why other races are preferred at times...they seem to be more tolerant of differences in expectations...they are also more tolerant of separation as well..so in many cases will not go through the same hardships as of one's own race to stay together...but do keep in my mind this is my opinion from my narrow scope of life...i cannot speak for everyone hence yours and others insight is truly welcome :D

[r_kk]

In Tamil literatures, from Sangam period to recent, you can find male superiority most of the time (excluding few countable writters). It is so blended with our culture; it is very difficult to make a equal world soon, as long as we falsely proud about our culture.
Read the following article regarding male superiority in Tamil literature.
http://www.languageinindia.com/sep2001/genderandlang.html

Even in spirituality, ladies were considered as inferior. Read the following article taken from "Farewell to God" by Charles Templeton, which may create a storm in mind.
http://www.submission.org/christians/templeton_women2.html

Please read thoroughly before making any comments.

[pavalamani pragasam]

Exactly. Now the time is ripe for rethinking, for acknowledging gender equality. Are we not an enlightened lot?

[happyindian]

Nice thread Pavalamani - good you started it - and gr8 responses too.

Now lets look at this from the biology part of the sexes:

1) Why are men stronger than the women in strength?
Simply because they are weaker in all matters otherwise! Male babies have higher mortality rates than female babies, more delicate digestive constitutions than female babies and develop language skills (+ other growing up milestones like walking, etc) later than female babies. All the muscle and strength in boys comes only after puberty. Why? Simply to protect the most delicate part of the man's body that starts developing after puberty. :wink:

Moreover, men are not designed to bear physical pain. Nature wise, women are considered the 'stronger species' fit for giving birth. Plus women are endowed with enormous patience as compared to men. Women are more fit for multi-tasking jobs as their brains are designed so. Men are more prone to stress than women. The para-sympathetic and sympathetic nervous system can function at the same time in women but in men only one can work at the same time, so a angry man simply cannot be loving, while a woman shouting at her husband in anger can feel love for her child at the same time.

2) Socially why are men expected to pass on the family baton with females being given all the inferior roles?
I think women have given that mantle to men. Women are by nature more cunning and born survivors. They know men are easily prone to aggresiveness, plus they have better ability for physical prowess, so women use men as pawns to get what they want (except few of those independent women). A woman can raise her son to treat other women like herself well (like blahblah's wonderful mom) but most women would rather use the son to remain the greatest object of affection in the son's life even after he is married (natural jealousy, its Freudanian guys, its in the deep-psyche so a woman wud not realise herself and would be shocked if you explained it to her). That is why you hv the very natural biological basis of a Mother-in-law Versus Daughter-in-law inability to accept each other. When a woman has many children or with education, awareness and raising levels of working women, you can expect this MIL vs DIL problems to reduce but not be completely gone. A blessed few men have women in their lives (mother, sister(s), wife, daughter(s)) who don't fight over him.

Like someone wrote abt a DIL who sits on the floor -- well, if the MIL wanted, she could get the entire family to treat the DIL as an equal. But to keep her power, she hasn't. Sometimes I feel, women, esp Indian, will never be able to get over kitchen politics, cannot help making comparisons and will try to keep their immature ego, come what may. When this DIL becomes a MIL herself, lets see how she will be able to restrain her frustration as she too will want to treat her DIL the same way as her MIL treated her. How is she going to raise her sons in their attitude towards women? Men treat women as inferior as their moms told them so. So women hv an equal role as a man's in psychological abuse against women (naturally, you cannot clap with one hand).

Abt movies, infantile men can only make movies reflecting their own true natures. So you hv men who boost their Pseudomasochistic tendencies by slappin women, 'conquering' women thru eve-teasing, etc. Aborting female foetuses hv already created probelms in some places in Himachal Pradesh and some Gujrati communites, where there are very-very few females for men to get married too. They learnt their lesson, when will the other communities follow suit??

[pavalamani pragasam]

Very interesting, happyindian! I admire the accuracy & veracity of all the facts you have revealed. They resemble my ideas almost cent percent! Very long ago in this very section one Ellen had a dicussion of man's masterliness where I remember having given these points, explaining also woman's knack of taking a second place knowing fully well her sway over the brood! The facts about MIL & DIL are also true. very magnanimous, self-confident, self-reliant women with lots of intellectual activities alone cant spare their energy & ingenuity in this peculiar warfare creating a perpetual dilemma for the menfolk of the household. The TV mega serials are making big money on this theme. It is at once amusing and infuriating- the way womanhood is portrayed by them. If such stuff propagated through the MEDIA is not censored, censured, made aware of, there is going to be no end to violence against women, no real enlightened existence of happy human beings on this earth!!!

[pavalamani pragasam]

The topic of female infanticide, very much a part of violence against women, induced me to post my story, "India Smiles" in this miscellaneous section. Please let me have feedback.

[happyindian]

Very nice Pavalamani - please give me the link to your story "India smiles".

The prob with these mega-serials is that they lead women in general to think that such sadistic behaviour is normal and acceptable in a society. Not many MILs understand that it is ABNORMAL to feel satiated when anyone is unhappy, esp if it is someone you needle for the sake of keeping power to yourself. Only development of interests and hobbies can help some of these elderly women.

[pavalamani pragasam]

Both men & women(including MILs :) ) need to be appreciated to feel good! Keeping oneself employed creatively is the clue to that good feeling of self-esteem :D

[lordstanher]

[quote="davie"]If india becomes like USA, then there will be about 80% of single women with kids as in the USA, then they start searching for a friend + husband to take care of their kid, to hang around etc. do u people want such kind of things to happen in india????/quote]

Well said, davie! Unfortunately, the new-gen. Indian women today, who wish to gain the 'independence' they always talk abt, seem to be straying into the same path, what w/ live-in relationships etc....quite common in the Metros.
I do believe that women in our country deserve equal rights and dignity/justice BUT I don't approve of this deviation of theirs from our culture/way of life in the name of 'freedom'!

[Surya]

Quite true, I agree 100%! :)
Woman should not be beaten, torutured, etc. After all, in our Hindu Sashtras, it's said a town where there is no temple, and where woman suffer is bound to founder sooner of later. Woman should have equal rights etc, but letting go of our culture is no way to do it. :)

[lordstanher]

Deccan Chronicle revealed that still lot of Hyderabadi Muslim girls are virtually sold off by poor parents to rich old Saudis every year. If you read the following article you will know how serious is this issue.

Yea I do rem. this article.....and I believe u've also heard about numerous cases where Indian girls/women from poor families were offered jobs as maids (or just ne jobs) in Dubai but after being taken there, they were sold into prostitution to other countries- can u dig tat- SOLD! in this age of 'democracy', 'liberty' etc.....ha! And ppl. who were behind this operations were Indians (NRIs)themselves!
And this has been happening for the last 2 decades until the Indian Govt. is finally said to've put an end to it recently! Sheesh......after hearing such things, I wonder if India deserved to become a democracy at all! I mean this crime used to go on during the Moghul invasion, centuries ago!!
The same thing also used to happen here in Singapore, before maybe obtaining Visas for entering Sing. was made compulsory for Indians in 1986.


For Christian and Hindu also, I have so many questions. The meaning of various viratham (Karva Choath etc, Is there any viratham for longevity of wife performed by husband?),

Well, I know tat atleast among South Indians, there is a ceremony to honour the wife when she's known to've become pregnant (called SEEMANDHAM).....I havn't heard of northies following this...??
And yea, I've also a question abt Hinduism- despite being a Hindu myself, I've always questioned the belief of woman accepting her husband as God......how can NE woman in NE religion accept her husband as God, when she sleeps w/ him, has xxx w/ him etc.....when I asked my mum this, she said it was bcos husbands used to be the sole bread-winners of homes, so the wife had to worship him for being the provider for the whole family!
But I still argue how ne woman cud hav such an intimate/promiscuous relationship w/ God??! If this is acceptable, it comes under Blasphemy! LoL.....:-)
Ne of ur views??


Why our feminists are not acted to save now? What was stopping them? Are these feminist really act for cause or trying to gain fame when the issues are hot?

I hav the same qsn. myself in this regard, for all those 'Mahila Sabhas' out there (nuff said!)

[Maxwell]

Violence against women... not a good thing. Should be condemned by all. Woman is just worthy of respect as a man.

According to Hinduism, a woman is a form of energy (shaktiswarupini) or an aspect of Shakti. She is mata, the Mother Goddess, or devi the auspicious one. As a young child she is kanya, the goddess Durga. As a wife she is patni and saha dharma charini, a partner in her husbands religious duties. As a mother she is worthy of worship (matrudevobhava).

[jaiganes]

Surya wrote:



After all, in our Hindu Sashtras, it's said a town where there is no temple, and where woman suffer is bound to founder sooner of later.


Nice to have all these shastras, qurans, bibles saying nice things. But all this amounts to nothing as long as men hold reins in the society. What is needed now is to reform our society, our country and create an equal opportunity environment for all. Discrmination and intimidation of all kind should go and women should get equal wages, even in the farm labour sector. What we have achieved in big cities like Bangalore must reach the last village. Till then violence against women and their oppression will continue. I read in this thread of some concerns that women liberated will drop all cultural values and will automatically become western. I do not approve that argument . This argument undermines the intelligence of women and their concern for our culture. Our culture is whatever it is because women have been nurturing it. Just look back and you will realise that this culture would not have survived were it not for the women who run the family in the most difficult of circumstances. Usually it is the men in the family who philander around and cause cultural degradation and not the other way.

[blahblah]

It is of no use to glorify woman as Shakthi,Durga,Lakshmi etc and then beat them up :x

.It is easy to make big speeches,but a more practical solution will be to consider women as human as men are and equal to us.So we understand each other and their concerns and feelings.Also each and every one taking a pledge to treat our women well and respect their dignity will go a long way. :)

So the next time your wife annoys you,take a deep breath,suppress the temptation to shout and count till 100[which I frequently practice and not preach alone] :lol: :lol: :lol:

[lordstanher]

jaiganes,
we r not suggesting tat all women who become liberated will go western and drop their cultural values.....and u r no doubt rite in saying tat our culture had survived all these decades only bcos of the women......BUT we all hav surely noticed tat there is a notable deterioration of our culture among majority of the present gen. girls/women (esp. in the metro cities, which hav a high degree of western influence) who openly say tat they want to be nothing like the previous gen. women who were traditionally-oriented and 'conservative'....it is these women who r misled w/ the wrong idea tat if they break free of our culture and values and adopt even the worst of the West, their sex can come forward in our society! But tat's not necessarily true of course!
So I meant to quote the saying "open ur arms to change if u will, but don't let go of ur values."

[jaiganes]

Dear lordstanher,
I agree! but compared to the number of men having such dreams of aping western culture and disregard for our culture , the number you are referring to is very very less. Also such people (male/female) exist more in the upper class, the lower class people are hard pressed for earning one square meal a day and it has always been the middle class which has been carrying on with all this talk about values, culture etc., If you walk back centuries, you will find the same thing with civilizations. So as i agree with you on that count, I also wish to remind you that a superior culture would be one that is more humane and caring in its approach. The evaluation has to be done by actions of the people who follow the culture and as far that is concerned, we Indians are a big zero as women in our country are among one of the worst oppressed, although slightly better than some other nations. Domestic violence by an abusive husband is tolerated and sometimes even glorified in media and social circles. Insensitivity has become the hallmark of Indian male, while suicidal patience has become the sole propriety of Indian woman. It is a shameful situation and still people cannot tolerate a woman driving a car or a woman in office.Even normal educated men exhibit their archaic chauvinism in all ways imaginable. They are stopped short only by a little fear of law they have(Thank God for that). In villages, situation is even more terrifying. If big cities have more western influence and villages are free of that, then it is safer for women in big cities. Atleast they wont be paraded naked and gangraped by sarpanches and upper caste people! :banghead: So look around and see the bright young kids in big cities. There is a good chance that they will not grow up to be wife beaters in the future. How confident are you about the chances of the same for children brought up in villages ?

[scorpio]

"Insensitivity has become the hallmark of Indian male, while suicidal patience has become the sole propriety of Indian woman. "

No truer words have been spoken better than what you have written!

Very sad but TRUE! :cry:

[blahblah]

It is no use blaming foreign culture.Discrimination against women always existed in our society.We have to change from within.A woman has her right to dignity whether she wears a saree or jeans and T-shirt.

I was shocked to hear an incident where,Symbiosis,Pune's major management institute,issued a dress code for girls following the rape of a student in the campus premises.What sort of a message are they trying to convey? :x This is like raping the rape victim again :evil: :evil: :evil: .

As some one pointed out early in this thread,child and women trafficking is rampant in our society.My own state,Kerala,which takes pride about being a well educated society is no different :( .In Kerala's Malappuram and Calicut districts,"Arabikkalyanam"[the ptactice where young girls if 13 or 14 are sold to rich Arabians in marriage] is common.Sometimes these parents ask the school teachers to make their daughters fail in school because they fear that once these kids are out of school it will be difficult to find a groom for them! :?

[jaiganes]

Kerala has a healthy ratio of 1058 females to 1000 males. National average is 927, which is very low! :(
Atleast women are not getting killed/maimed/raped and abused there! Cultural guardians should first get the social situation civilized, then we can comfortably sit down and lay all rules to either sexes.

Another irritating aspect is the role of media like cinema in promoting misogynist tendencies among young men. How many incidents have we heard/seen in the recent times, when an unrequited love resulted in throwing acid or murder of the lady involved. Definitely men involved were not some illiterate villagers, they were college going youth who are having skewed up and romanticised view about love, affection etc., which is put in their heads by cinemas and TV serials. In this case exposure to indian media itself is so harmful(western media is more mature when it is handling Love). This idea has been taken to extreme and the success of movies like "Kaadhal Kondein" and "Manmadhan" only highlights this point. This is doubly tragic for women because they give up their love due to compulsions from family, only to be bathed in an idiot's Acid bottle. :cry:

[blahblah]

Kerala has a healthy ratio of 1058 females to 1000 males. National average is 927, which is very low! :(
Atleast women are not getting killed/maimed/raped

Jaiganes,your ignorance is shocking.The male female ratio is fast changing in Kerala.The statistics is not at all dependable as more than two million Keralites live in Gulf countries and many more in other countries and states.Many of these people are missed out and most of them are men.For example I my name is not included in the voters list,but my wife's is.

Women are indeed getting killed,maimed and raped.You refer any malayalam newspaper for a day and tell me whether there aren't many such news of women committing suicide,being killed,raped and harrassed for dowry.Human character is almost the same everywhere,atleast in different states of India.

By the way do you know that women do not go out alone after 6 pm in Kerala?You travel thorough out the state and tell me how many women you can see after 6 on govt or private buses.

[hehehewalrus]

blahblah,
just now discussed your militant kerala patriotism with sonu gopi over mail, unfortunately u have rubbished kerala now :lol2: :lol2: :lol2: :lol2:

[blahblah]

But truth is truth and it sticks out a mile. :banghead: :banghead:

[Sandeep]

Blahblah,

Beg to differ but the situation of Kerala women are far better than that in other parts of India. The fact that so many rape and abuse cases are getting reported itself is a proof for that. Atleast parents and the society are standing with their daughters and fighting.

Kerala women are better educated than their male counterparts and the percentage of employment is very high amound kerala women.

I am not at all suggesting everything is good and bright but definitely far far better.

About the sex ratio thing. Though you have a point I dont think that sex ratio among NRKs is huge enough to effect the sex ratio of the state. At least I am sure that girl child is not killed or abused for the reason that she is a girl by their parents or family.

[blahblah]

Blahblah,

Beg to differ but the situation of Kerala women are far better than that in other parts of India. The fact that so many rape and abuse cases are getting reported itself is a proof for that. Atleast parents and the society are standing with their daughters and fighting.

Kerala women are better educated than their male counterparts and the percentage of employment is very high amound kerala women.

I am not at all suggesting everything is good and bright but definitely far far better.

About the sex ratio thing. Though you have a point I dont think that sex ratio among NRKs is huge enough to effect the sex ratio of the state. At least I am sure that girl child is not killed or abused for the reason that she is a girl by their parents or family.

Why are we such hypocrites and denying what are only facts? :x

I am sure too the women in Kerala fare better than the poor souls in other states.Just to consider you arguments,I agree that they have better education than men.And jobs too-right.

The main reason is that the Kerala women themselves led a silent revolution in the 80's and 90's when they took up the noble profession of nursing which was till then looked upon with disgust.In almost every field including sports,they are better than us[applicable only to Kerala].

But none of these happened because their men were kind to them or respected their dignity in general as a society.Instead women in Kerala despite all their success,is still not allowed the socil freedom they deserve. :x

About the sex ratio.What are you proud of?How do you explain an adult sex ratio of 1058 and a child sex ratio 963 and their difference?Any idiot can see that something is amiss.Where did all the girls go?Aren't they simply being born?How can you be sure Sir,there isn't female infanticide in Kerala? :evil:

[Sandeep]

I dont know the ratios nor do I have proves for anything but I have felt that kerala women are doing better.

May be the environments we have seen are different. May be what I have seen around me cannot be generalised on to the whole of Kerala.

[jaiganes]

Hey guys!
I am not a keralite!
Whatever the statistics may or may not say, Kerala has one of the very few matriarchical social systems in India. That much I know. Can anyone of you explain to rest of the people what happened to that society or how things function in a matriarchical society. The only other matriarchical society in India that comes to my mind is in Meghalaya. But the status of women is better in both places. I am yet to come across a malayalee male who treats his wife or daughters badly. Explain this and we have a solution to this problem. Plus Kerala and Thamizh Nadu were one of the early states to enact legislations ensuring rights to family property for women. That too can explain something that will set things right on an Indian level.

[Sandeep]

Can anyone of you explain to rest of the people what happened to that society or how things function in a matriarchical society.

Matriarchical society is still strong in Kerala. But legally it stopped to exist since 1976. My community follow matriatchical society. I carry my mothers family name and not my father's.

So its simple if you have a girl child you family will continue. Old times even property was like that. You get property from your mothers family not your fathers. But as I said now legally this is not valid. So ,though I am a member of my mothers family, since I was born after 1976 I dont have legal rights on the family.

[scorpio]

Sandeep,

Any idea why the system was not legally made valid?

I cannot even think how our society would be if we all had initials of our moms. ( like M.Kumaran, s/o Mahalakshmi 8)

[NM]

[quote=jaiganes]
Matriarchical society is still strong in Kerala. But legally it stopped to exist since 1976. My community follow matriatchical society. I carry my mothers family name and not my father's.
So its simple if you have a girl child you family will continue. Old times even property was like that. You get property from your mothers family not your fathers. But as I said now legally this is not valid. So ,though I am a member of my mothers family, since I was born after 1976 I dont have legal rights on the family.
Strange that we can find this society in Malaysia too, one the southern states practice this and it originates from Indonesia....perhaps the Indian kingdom brought it over to Indonesia and subsequently to M'sia.

[Sandeep]

Dont know I think as part of Unification of law.

You dont keep you mothers name but her family name.

More on the system.

Women retain thier maiden name even after marraige because even after marraige they dont become part of husbands family.

[sonu gopi]

[quote=jaiganes]
Matriarchical society is still strong in Kerala. But legally it stopped to exist since 1976. My community follow matriatchical society. I carry my mothers family name and not my father's.
So its simple if you have a girl child you family will continue. Old times even property was like that. You get property from your mothers family not your fathers. But as I said now legally this is not valid. So ,though I am a member of my mothers family, since I was born after 1976 I dont have legal rights on the family.
Strange that we can find this society in Malaysia too, one the southern states practice this and it originates from Indonesia....perhaps the Indian kingdom brought it over to Indonesia and subsequently to M'sia.

Yes, NM we find this practised widely in the State of Negri Sembilan (9 principilities makes the state of N. Sembilan) - they are ppl of Minangkabau origin from Bukit Tinggi, Sumatra - Indonesia.

I was really amazed when I see the similarities of my origin with that of my Minangkabau friends here in Malaysia. :D

Sonu Gopi :wink:

[jaiganes]

sonu gopi wrote:



Yes, NM we find this practised widely in the State of Negri Sembilan (9 principilities makes the state of N. Sembilan) - they are ppl of Minangkabau origin from Bukit Tinggi, Sumatra - Indonesia.

Interesting to know this. Tell me what is the state of men(the non dominant sex) over there? If it is something better compared to the state of women in patriarchical societies, then it is something that ppl in general can adopt and improve their social indicators. :wink:

[NM]

JG:
I remember reading that the females are made heir to properties and that females set the rules and they are considered the head of the household...

Sonu Gopi....perhaps you have more info on that one?? :wink:

[jaiganes]

Yesterday in the news, I came across two ghastly items.

1. A woman in Andhra Pradesh was made to walk on fire to prove her chastity :(
2. In North India, a village panchayat annulled/cancelled a love marriage because they belonged to different sub-castes! :cry: :cry:

Now we are supposed to be in 21st century.. I am ashamed.

[NM]

Jaiganes...
does it really happen in this day and age??? very embarassed to hear that!! :oops: :oops:

[jaiganes]

I guess it happens only in India! :(
Good that you are 1000 KM from this holy land!!

[NM]

I really thought India has improved, you know, in terms of child slavery and discriminations against women and I thought the caste system was dying....i must be really ignorant..!! :oops: :oops:

[lordstanher]

I agree w/ the earlier statements tat Tamil/Malyalam movies/serials actually glorify abuse/violence against women! And more often than not, they usually depict traditionally-clad women in vulgar ways!
I've heard of parents verbally censoring English movies, claiming tat they r "vulgar" etc. etc...
But my qsn. to our 'conservative' society is how come no-one bothers to raise their voice against Indian movies tat blatantantly depict harassing/molesting women and robbing them of the 'pure' image tat Indian women r known for, even in the so-called romantic song and dance sequences in our films, where the heroine- more often than not- clad in a Saree, and tat too provocatively, dances seductively in the rain......there goes the hero fondling/kissing her on all the 'exposed' areas, even pulling off her Saree (when married couples can't walk just holding hands in public!) and there goes ur 'tradition-bound' audience (mostly the male) enthusiastically approving and applauding all this on-screen display of kamasutra! Cute!
Not only the songs....I've heard tat in most Indian cinema theatres, whenever they see even a brief scene where a woman's Saree pallu slips & falls even accidentally, the male audience goes clapping/jeering/whistling.......worse still, I've heard of them throwing coins when a rape scene is shown! So much for maintaining our 'culture' & 'values', huh?!
I find it so ironic tat in a country w/ 2,000,000 gods (inc. female deities!), ppl. r still able to make films depicting women as cheap, alluring objects and get away w/ it! Y don't we take a look at our own society, instead of incessantly criticising Western movies??!!

[jaiganes]

NM wrote


i must be really ignorant

After all that sparring in the jokes and other section, now you agreee!!!.
Jokes apart, India has indeed improved, bcoz, five to six years ago incidents like these would have gone unnoticed. Now media(news) is projecting such stories and literate people are showing semblance of waking up. So all is not bad. But the situation is not rosy either.
Lordstanher wrote:


Y don't we take a look at our own society, instead of incessantly criticising Western movies

Yes. That is the plea for everyone. Lets not blame western influence for everything . What we need is a social reform that will not eject out the essence of ancient culture, just repair/remove that is not correct and we don't want a social revolution that will affect stability either. I guess, our human resources development minister Shri. Arjun Singh is doing something in this regard.

[NM]

NM wrote

i must be really ignorant After all that sparring in the jokes and other section, now you agreee!!!. :lol: :lol: :lol: U got me there!!
Anyway, yep, agree with you, India is improving now and I think, it will be a better place for Indians worldwide to consider living in near future...

[Mira24]

Hi..
FRANKLY gAYATHRI, IF THE daughter inlaw u referred will NOT use misuse the freedom thats given to her, she has every right in the world to sie next to her MIL...pls dot mistake me...i'e seen some daughter-in-laws (My amma's friends' mother is being illtreated) illtreat their MIL to the extent that I cant desrcibe it here..

But, if DIL is good and considering the age of DIL u referred, this is the age to live to the fullest and enjoy life..after all dont we women deserve it???..
In one line, I will say the DIL should DO WHAT SHE LIKES..Iam sure we women know our limits!!!!!

May be I would say you should talk to the DIL directly ....

[Shekhar]

Hi..
In one line, I will say the DIL should DO WHAT SHE LIKES..Iam sure we women know our limits!!!!!

Mira ... Your post is in the wrong thread. It should have been in the "A joke per day.." thread. Sure it would have been the joke of the day.... :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Mira24]

Shekhar...When u knew to criticise it, u should have known to explain it too....iam sure u didnt understand what I said...
:lol: :lol: :lol:
Of course we do know our limits and we need not prove it with anyone..i onlt meant that the Daughter in Law (I donno what on earth u understood by DIL) deserves next to the MIL..

[Mira24]

tat too provocatively, dances seductively in the rain......there goes the hero fondling/kissing her on all the 'exposed' areas, even pulling off her Saree (when married couples can't walk just holding hands in public!) and there goes ur 'tradition-bound' audience (mostly the male) enthusiastically approving and applauding all this on-screen display of kamasutra! Cute!
Not only the songs....I've heard tat in most Indian cinema theatres, whenever they see even a brief scene where a woman's Saree pallu slips & falls even accidentally, the male audience goes clapping/jeering/whistling......"

I agree with this for sure...how come we follow such strict rules at home but not outside it? if you see the males who whistles for such scenes would normally belong to 3rd class C Grade audience type...but they always manage to quiten the decent middle-class people...is that the middle-class weakness?

[jaiganes]

Mira wrote


is that the middle-class weakness?

No that's the trait of the species!, They are unheard(except in letters to the editor section of the hindu ;-)), unseen(invisible). They are consumers of the society, silently consuming everything good or bad.

Coming back to violence against women, DIL - MIL fight is an internal phenomenon, it is one woman against another and IMO, it is a level playing field. But violence against women perpetrated by the brutal sex (I wouldn't call men who beat up women as the stronger sex) is condemnable and sadly it has silent consent from the society. Wife beaters are rarely arrested and in most of the cases, the affected person is advised not to complain for the sake of success of the institution and security of any kids involved. The law must be changed and victims of abuse by spouses must be guaranteed full protection by police and support by the government. And all wife beaters must be banned from entering into a legal wedlock again, thereby preventing such silent crimes from being perpetrated.

[Mira24]

I agree with it..thats the trait...Middle-class, highest consumer section but silent on all important issues..

sadly the ones who shape India's future are worthless actors(calling themselves superstar, ultimate star, illay thalapathi when they are not even ACTORS!!!!!!!), rowdies, third-class C Grade Cinema Audience and illiterate politicians like Laloo (loose lollu)...

And still we have not figured out to a way change it!!!!!!!!! No wonder so many hate to llive in India..I guess thats the tactics used by these actors and politicians who depend largely on illiterate audience...

Very sad and depressing depsite of me tryin to come over it!!!!

Thanks,
Charu.

[lordstanher]

*Sorry I'm not able to revert too promptly/often in these threads....neways....

What we need is a social reform that will not eject out the essence of ancient culture, just repair/remove that is not correct and we don't want a social revolution that will affect stability either.

Tat exactly is wat even I'd said earlier in this thread! But tat exactly is wat is not happening in the present society, is it? :)
And tat's y I'd expressed my concern abt the increasing number of women in our cities who r giving up most of the valuable aspects of our culture/values in the name of 'independence' or 'liberation', and u'll know wat I was talking abt if u know abt wat college girls- and even housewives- in most of the cities r getting into nowadays, right from smoking/drinking to pornography/illicit sex. :cry:
And u mite be rite in dismissing this, saying tat compared to the men aping western culture, the number of such women is currently very less, but we may not know abt wat mite happen further on....?
I know I mite offend many here and sound very biased but I personally believe tat the previous generations of women in our country were definitely better than the present (and maybe future) ones, for our culture is believed to've been existant for all these decades mainly bcos of the former, esp. the middle class women. And of course its not as if women of those times never worked in jobs or ventured out of the houses at all just bcos of their traditional outlook.....IMO, it was those women tat cud truly be regarded as the ideal women of not just their time but ne time! And its a pity tat most of the men of their time never realised the value of such women & seldom gave them the respect tat they were truly worthy of!
I'm not sure if men r going to change overall for the better, but I suspect tat the women r sadly never going to be the same again, barring a small fraction of them, in cities or even otherwise!
The thot tat we've lost such a precious wealth in our society really makes me depressed sumtimes..... :cry:

[Sandeep]

When MIL and DIL fight who is getting harassed.

I think it is the poor husband. This is violence against men. :roll:

[son]

Women are harassed all over the world. They are harassed in all forms starting from sex to kitchen work. ( there are exceptions)
Infact few individuals dare to kill women after sex. I am aware of one seriel killer who killed about 300 women after sex.
Horrible world this is!!!
It is also devastating to know the statistics that more women suffer from clinical depression than men. Why is all this emotional tortures reserved only for women???? Do we want our beloved mom or wife to suffer from depression?? I just had depression for just two days and felt how cruel it is to suffer from depression. The most terrible things in this world are the homicides and cold blooded cruelties. (I am not scared when i see the dead bodies of poor victims, but surely scared when seeing the criminals like seriel killers who commit heinous unbelievable crimes)

men and women are human beings. dats it. no one is superior or inferior.

[scorpio]

Violence against women need not be physical all times. I had few experiences in my workplaces which were really disturbing. Will share one of them now.

There used to be a person in my ex-workplace. He was a senior both in position and experience. He used to make unnecessary comments about the sari, chappals, jasmine on the hair etc etc. He used to say how fat his wife had become of late and how people like me manage both home and career skilfully :cry: and all nonsense stuff. Wouldn't spare us even in the cafeteria asking the females to eat well and take care of our health ( as though it matters to him :shock: ). He would carefully mouth words which will convey his intentions but are not obscene or sensual. No need to say about his penetrating stares which made working- along, hell, literally.

He was so close to the highest boss and I was the only female among Managers in the organization and I had to interact with this person for official matters. Rules on workplace harassment were not laid emphatically as they are now. There used to be no other way but to endure this guy and avoid him whenever possible.

Lucky enough, I got offer from another place and moved on. But, can't help but feel sorry for other females working with that pervert! Yuck!

[mandangi]

In police department sexual harassments are more. I know one women who is wife of a gazetted government officer and joined constable job. She faced harssments from many police men including SI in her station.

[mandangi]

Women are harassed all over the world. They are harassed in all forms starting from sex to kitchen work. ( there are exceptions)
Infact few individuals dare to kill women after sex. I am aware of one seriel killer who killed about 300 women after sex.
Horrible world this is!!!
It is also devastating to know the statistics that more women suffer from clinical depression than men. Why is all this emotional tortures reserved only for women???? Do we want our beloved mom or wife to suffer from depression?? I just had depression for just two days and felt how cruel it is to suffer from depression. The most terrible things in this world are the homicides and cold blooded cruelties. (I am not scared when i see the dead bodies of poor victims, but surely scared when seeing the criminals like seriel killers who commit heinous unbelievable crimes)

men and women are human beings. dats it. no one is superior or inferior.
I think even devils do not behave so horribily.

[jaiganes]

I am sorry to hear that scorpio! :( :(

[mandangi]

In India Bihar tops in violence against women. There harassments and killings for dowry are very common.

[Shakthiprabha.]

Well, here is one of the incidents which I can never put off from my mind.

I was around 15, my nails had always been blue. So mom and dad were worried, if it has anythign to do with HEART PROBLEM. Bindas I was, not worrying about the consequences or the seroiusness of it. My parents chose not to tell about it too.

We had this famous heart surgeon/consultant near our house. He was a man of around 30 - 35. He had his own clinic near our place.

My mom did not say, whats gonna happen (probably knew not or was clueless herself) and I happily went inside to be checked by the doc.

Doc asked my mom to be out. Mom was initially uncomfy, later had to obey. Doc initially HAD NO NUSRSES OR ANYONE TO HELP HIM. He wanted to take ECG for me. (whatever it is, i am not sure about the medical terms, it was an instrument, to be kept near the chest area.)

I was asked to remove clothes, and doc without ANY NURSE did every check by himself.

It was not violence. PROBABLY he DID HIS DUTY. But for a 14 year old, with no one in the room, NOT EVEN A NURSE, being checked by a male doc, initimately.., IS PSYCHOLOGICALLY not so healthy.

I am nto sure, if many would agree with me, BUT I WAS EXTREMELY IRRITATED, SCARED, CAME HOME AND CRIED TO MOM. She was helpless who then said, "may be I should have stayed!"

I was certified normal. i AM 300 PERCENT SURE, doc was a normal guy, who DID NOT intend doin any harm to me.

But, a 14 year old WILL NOT UNDERSTAND THAT. I would have been happy if he had asked my mom to stay, or had a nurse to do it.

I may sound queer, conservative, but yes, I could not forgive that doctor for YEARS.

I feel I am elaborating too much on such topics, just wanted to mention here, that VIOLENCE can be even psycological in nature.

thx..again

I hope DOCTORS have these in mind. thanks.

[jaiganes]

From recent newpaper reports, the maximum number of professionals who abuse their clients seem to be teachers and doctors. These are two professions, we have accorded the maximum respect. I guess worms always find their way into apple.

[Querida]

Hey Shakti....that's not being overly conservative...that's common instinct kicking in...even if the doc was pure he should have a nurse by him.. and ecg on first visit...that's kinda drastic...i know one of my friends kept avoiding going to the doctor...the doc was a family friend but it got to the point she was feeling uncomfortable with a male doc finally i introduced her to my fam. doc (femme) and luckily too cause she had been suffering from a thyroid problem that she did not know of until she went..as for blue nails....i still get them...i always have cold,moist hands and feet....doctor says it's cause im anaemic(iron deficiency)

[mandangi]

From recent newpaper reports, the maximum number of professionals who abuse their clients seem to be teachers and doctors. These are two professions, we have accorded the maximum respect. I guess worms always find their way into apple.
It is not at all related to profession. It depends only upon mentality. One of my relatives is also harassing his wife daily. He is also doctor. There is no rule that doctors and teachers do not have bad character.

[davie]

Hey Shakti....that's not being overly conservative...that's common instinct kicking in...even if the doc was pure he should have a nurse by him.. and ecg on first visit...that's kinda drastic...i know one of my friends kept avoiding going to the doctor...the doc was a family friend but it got to the point she was feeling uncomfortable with a male doc finally i introduced her to my fam. doc (femme) and luckily too cause she had been suffering from a thyroid problem that she did not know of until she went..as for blue nails....i still get them...i always have cold,moist hands and feet....doctor says it's cause im anaemic(iron deficiency)
Well even if this thread is for violence against women, i thought of writing what i know regarding low BP and anemia.

Well if you are suffering from low blood pressure, eat lots of vegetables/fruits. A multivitamin supplement will help. Taking large doses of iron tablets is not a better idea, coz your body needs very little amount of iron per day, but the iron consumption should be consistent even if its very less.
Proper food habits can eliminate such problems. If u have moist hands/cold hands i think uhave to increase the consumption of minerals (esp vegetables and eggs). Fish is a must. Be careful with salt consumption

Always learn to keep track of your body and dont forget to do a google search to know more about the kind of problems you have and the solution for them. All these advice is for every one both young and old

[mandangi]

In India women mainly face harassments by husbands or mother-in-law\father-in-law in home. Sexual harassments in office are less. Women need not fear to domestic harassments or harassments in office. Women can darely file complaint in police station against harassments. But women who do that are less.

[lordstanher]

Shakti,
really sorry to hear abt ur incident w/ the doc....I know how u felt, I can feel my hands trembling after reading it, believe me......inspite of being a guy! Whew! :shock:
I've had similar apprehensions abt male docs. examining women and had decided long b4 tat when I'd be married, I wud never take my wife- or daughter if I had one- to a male doc! I mean, u can't really tell their character in these matters!
And no I don't think u were being conservative or nething....I agree tat a male doc really shud've had a nurse around....I know tat in the US or even Sing., which r not conservative comp'd to India, its common for male doctors to examine female patients- even as gynaecologists! but I've heard tat there usually is a nurse in their presence when examining the patients....
Nevertheless, I'm quite surprised tat u had to go to a male doctor, even if u were young.....um, surely there were female doctors around in ur city in those days as well...?

[lordstanher]

Sexual harassments in office are less. Women need not fear to domestic harassments or harassments in office. Women can darely file complaint in police station against harassments. But women who do that are less.

Lol! Yevaru chepparamma? (Who sez so my dear?) :P
In fact fyi, harassment of women in offices tat r male dominated, or hav to work w/ male colleagues, is really the max. in sum cities.....sadly, even if women r in positions like IAS officers, they are harassed by Senior IAS officers!
There was even an article in 'Deccan Chronicle' (hyd. newspaper) last Dec. abt the increasing harassment of junior women IAS by senior male ones in Guwahati (Assam).....said tat sum of the women r forced to take transfer to other places while sum others r even forced to submit themselves to this treatment! Gawd! Tat is so pathetic! :x
And as 4 complaining to police against this, it said tat many of them did tat of course.....but not surprisingly, most of the IAS men hav connections w/ politicians and/or wield sum influence, so.......well u can guess the rest! :(
Damn! this really makes me wonder if India really is a 'democracy'?? :evil:

[NM]

Shakti & Scorpio...sorry to hear abt those incidences! These seem to be a global problem, not only in India.. Sad, isn't it??:cry: :cry:
And I do agree with lordstanher, harassment of women in male-dominated offices is the max!! :( :(

[jaiganes]

NM !
Are there any female dominated offices? In India I can only think of some garment export units. They too have mojority female workers but the managers and supervisors are usually male. I have seen certain export units in Whitefield Bangalore. They arrange for the shoddiest means of transport for all their workers. They arrange the vals generally used for shifting houses. So people are herded in without having anything to hold on to. And people on the peripheru have to pray that they don't fall out of the van. These ladies have no other go as they will have the usual problems travelling my public transport.

[NM]

NM !
Are there any female dominated offices? In India I can only think of some garment export units. They too have mojority female workers but the managers and supervisors are usually male. I have seen certain export units in Whitefield Bangalore. They arrange for the shoddiest means of transport for all their workers. They arrange the vals generally used for shifting houses. So people are herded in without having anything to hold on to. And people on the peripheru have to pray that they don't fall out of the van. These ladies have no other go as they will have the usual problems travelling my public transport.
Yes, JG, there are...I've been part of that too.......there are pros and cons, different kinds of problem but not harrassment :lol:

[Roshan]

Doc initially HAD NO NUSRSES OR ANYONE TO HELP HIM. He wanted to take ECG for me. (whatever it is, i am not sure about the medical terms, it was an instrument, to be kept near the chest area.)

I dont think it's an ECG test. I had undergone an ECG test myself, as my previous work place demanded a complete medical report from all their recruits. For an ECG, too many wires would be attached to your chest for a while. As long as I know every hospital has the ECG unit separately - separate from doctor's consulting room, and only the nurses and some other techinicians would get involved in such tests. In your case it would have probably been a normal test I guess - just to check your heart beat and breathing pattern.



I may sound queer, conservative, but yes, I could not forgive that doctor for YEARS.

No not at all conservative!! Any 'ordinary' woman - especially at that age would react in a similar way. In your case you have cried to your mom once getting back home, but I have seen some girls crying at the doctors' itself - forcing the doctor to have a relative in - while examining.



i AM 300 PERCENT SURE, doc was a normal guy, who DID NOT intend doin any harm to me.

Thats good and encouraging to know !! :D



But, a 14 year old WILL NOT UNDERSTAND THAT.

Yeah true!!

[jaiganes]

-deleted-

mod's msg: pls don't deviate or make light of this serious issue.

[blahblah]

I may sound queer, conservative, but yes, I could not forgive that doctor for YEARS.


You do not sound queer or conservative,but have raised a seious issue related to medical ethics and the topic under discussion.I simply do not understand why he didn't have a female assistant present and asked your mother out!

I heard recently of a situation where male doctors carry out the mandatory physical examination of female aspirants for Indian Army posts.

When it happens to a 14 year old,I come close to calling it abuse.I too don't forgive him for not allowing your mom to stay.That is the least he should have done. :x

[Shakthiprabha.]

hey thx... all :)

Its nice to know...i am not obnormal u see :)

This incident, was NOT TAKEN BY ME EASILY... though I used to wonder, if i am making a moutain out of molehill...

anyway................roshan,not sure roshan, he had lot of wires, fixed with that instrument,was checking monitor, then me, then fixing refixing it again and agian on me..(sorry roshan, i am unable to proceed in detail)

:(

[NM]

Shakti,
I just feel like whacking that guy! Didn't your mom confront the doctor? I can see how this incident has affected you!! To be honest, I started out writing my experince this morning but stopped and deleted the whole thing half-way cos' I can't bring myself to re-live the whole episode! I managed to put that incident at the back of my head but your experiences are just bringing back old memories!!!
Take care...& thanks for sharing your experiences..... :thumbsup:

[Roshan]

sorry roshan, i am unable to proceed in detail

:(

No probs. I can udnerstand. But usually the ECG tests are carried out in a separate unit and only female nurses and technicians are allowed to handle female patients.

[blahblah]

So you ladies thought it happens only to girls?It's child abuse and nothing else.I feel like saluting SP for being brave enough to come out with something like this.Not many people do it.The victim always live a teen age so hellish with a scarred mind while he/she has done nothing to deserve it!I can only understand NM too well.

If I have a daughter one day,I feel I have to think many times before taking her to a male doctor. :x

[Shakthiprabha.]

well blah blah,

It can be otherway too. There are many women, who take adv of beign a woman. I am sure all mustve seen 'sigappu rojakkal'.

Stories are not just out of nowhere. It portrays real life in many cases.

It is such a shameful thing to think, that MOTHERS OF THESE DAYS, are too careful about child abuse, (as young as 3 or 4 year old children) that they dont even let any distant relative carry the child. :(

Feeling sad bout the scenario. One becoems sceptic about everything, every situation and every person around. THAT IS NOT HEALTHY.

I wonder what else is the solution ?!?

Recently, my freind had her 6 yera old daughter complaining of indecent touches by the GYM owner :(

My friend WAS UNBABLE TO initially handle it. Then she I guess, spoke to that guy(though he had explannations reg the same), and to her daughter.

When the child is small enought that they cant express, many men(or women too?!? ..not sure) take adv. SICK AND SAD.

Sad that mothers need to educate a child about BAD AND GOOD TOUCHES at the age of 6!!!!!!!!!!!!! :(

Where are we heading? :(

so much for indian culture!

[blahblah]

Oops!Not too sure about that Indian culture part.In western culture,it is probably more than what we see in ours.

It is only a child's right to discover his or her identity in this world without having to carry the burden of other people's sins.
And I feel outraged to hear such incidents as I am sure that all these children will virtually spent their childhood in shame and humility,which they certainly don't deserve.They feel the guilt all the way,while they are only victims!

And as you said it is very unfortunate that a mother has to teach a six year old about good and bad touches.

[Roshan]

It can be otherway too. There are many women, who take adv of beign a woman. I am sure all mustve seen 'sigappu rojakkal'.

Exactly !! Good you came out with it coz, I was planning to discuss on that too. I have seen by myself and have heard from various people about these kind of perverted women who try to hang on their male superiors with the idea of getting increments, promotions and various other benefits. :x This kind of perverted behaviour of these women gives a bad impression about the other women too.
:evil:

I saw a news item recently about a female teacher in Australia - who was accused of sexual abuse of one of her male students who was around 12. :twisted: Sickening creachers ! :twisted:

[lordstanher]

[quote="RoshanI have seen by myself and have heard from various people about these kind of perverted women who try to hang on their male superiors with the idea of getting increments, promotions and various other benefits. :x This kind of perverted behaviour of these women gives a bad impression about the other women too. :evil: [/quote]

Yea I agree whole-heartedly! :)
I'm sure I'm not the only one whoz heard of those boss-secretary stories! I'd even read in the local paper tat secretaries behave like tat and even dress the way they do so the boss won't regard them as 'nobodys' or 'wimps'......tats of course considered part & parcel of the promotion/bonus idea from their side! Y go 4 such jobs then?! Sick ppl.! :evil:

[lordstanher]

Are there any female dominated offices?

Um....not many offices but public schools in India r more or less 'female-dominated' workplaces.....nearly all of the teachers there r women, and the Principals r also in most cases women so I (personally) think tats one of the jobs 4 women in India where they seldom face ne interference/troubles, as opposed to the ones where males r the majority/superiors......just IMHO!
Conversely, one of my lecturers here in sing. told me abt countries like Australia where there r chances of males getting harassed in such workplaces..... sorry but I cudn't help finding it amusing to think abt it at 1st......cos we r more used to hearing abt women being at the receiving end! :)

[jaiganes]

It is better that schools are female dominated as we donot want young minds to get corrupted by some nuts. I had a Thamizh teacher who used to come to class fully drunk!! There were instances where he corrected mid term "French" papers in mabbu (influence) and one student got 110 out of 100 as our drunken monk gave 2 marks for 1 mark questions!!! :lol: :lol: :lol: Cannot imagine a lady doing the same!!!!!

[Shakthiprabha.]

hey i wonder, how many watches hindi movies.

There is one recently about male harassing issue.

cast : akshay kumar, priyanka and kareena..in 'AITRAAZ'
(A remake of english movie 'DISCOURSE'-demimoore, douglas)

[Querida]

Hey Shakti i know it was said before but i really have to commend you for coming out and discussing a valid issue...again i do agree with Roshan about the testing...that's why i thought it was too drastic... i too have had an ECG (electrocardiogram) done when i was about seven for slight heart murmer...again female doc and lots of nurses...well mostly cause i was trying to get away! :roll: anyways let it be past..hope talking about has lessened some of the strife you have associated with the incident...

btw Davie thanx alot for the advice...will watch out for that...but i have been taking iron supplements which seem to be helping me :D

[a.ratchasi]

There are not only direct 'hang ons' but also indirect ones.
If they cant get anywhere near the boss, well you can then detect them within the 50m radius with the ppl the bosses are close to.

But then again, this indirect 'hang ons' are done by both the genders.

[davie]

It can be otherway too. There are many women, who take adv of beign a woman. I am sure all mustve seen 'sigappu rojakkal'.

Exactly !! Good you came out with it coz, I was planning to discuss on that too. I have seen by myself and have heard from various people about these kind of perverted women who try to hang on their male superiors with the idea of getting increments, promotions and various other benefits. :x This kind of perverted behaviour of these women gives a bad impression about the other women too.
:evil:

I saw a news item recently about a female teacher in Australia - who was accused of sexual abuse of one of her male students who was around 12. :twisted: Sickening creachers ! :twisted:

I think hangons such as the ones to get increments and promotions need not be between men and women. We all know that similar things happen every where, in tamil (kaaka pudikkuradhu) :) . We are always attracted by the opposite gender. I think its our innate human characteristic. Most of the dads like their daughters more than their moms and vice versa. We can notice many such kind of similar behaviors in humans. I think there is nothing wrong in all these. Exclude abnormal beings like the teacher that roshan was mentioning. I am just refering to mentally healthy human beings. Ratchasi was saying about direct and indirect kind of hangons. Well indirect never works most of the time :rotfl:

[r_kk]

Hi Sakthi Prabha,
There was no mistake from your side and hence you need not feel bad for being alone during medical examinations. Just forget it and go on with your life.

In few countries and remote places in India, the numbers of female doctors are very less. For the examinations of breast cancer and fetus growth during pregnancy, I had taken some of my family members to male doctors. I considered those doctors as a noble person and never had any suspicious thoughts about their professions. In all the case they ask some of the close family members to stay with the doctor in examination room. Even in case if a female patient is checked by male doctor alone as long as the doctor performs his noble duty, the patient need not to feel bad.

There are rare incidences in which doctors didn’t show the noble characters that profession needs. In such cases, the sufferer should be brave enough to expose such crooks in order to avoid suspicion on the entire doctor community. In such cases also the sufferer need not to feel bad about themselves because mentally they have not done any thing wrong. As long as one’s mind is pure, they need not feel bad about themselves.

Ok, let me come to another issue related to the women’s rights.
Recently Indian judicial system rejected that caste of mother can not be considered as caste of the child for a case of women who won the election from a reserved constituency in AP. I feel this is degrading the women’s right to have full right on their babies after divorce or re-marriage. It may discourage inter caste marriages too in future since it indirectly imposes the children need to follow father’s traditions.

Any comments?

[mandangi]

Ok, let me come to another issue related to the women’s rights.
Recently Indian judicial system rejected that caste of mother can not be considered as caste of the child for a case of women who won the election from a reserved constituency in AP. I feel this is degrading the women’s right to have full right on their babies after divorce or re-marriage. It may discourage inter caste marriages too in future since it indirectly imposes the children need to follow father’s traditions.

Any comments?
My mother said that in those days they used to give reservations to OC women who marry SC\ST\BC men for encouraging intercaste marriages. Now that rule is removed. If not for discouraging intercaste marriages why did they remove that rule?
According to our law if a widow or divorcee remarries, children born by her first husband should not use surname of their step father and also not eligible to use reservation by caste of their step father. But they are having property right from their step father.

[nirosha sen]

Here's a piece of news that's raised my hackles, People!!

In Pakistan today, a woman raped by 5 men a few years back was left in tears of outrage as her rapists were left off scot free, save for one fella whose conviction was a life-sentence!! :evil:

This was following an appeal by the defendants whose conviction was overturned by the Hight Court!

The woman in question was Mukthiar Mai, a young woman who was raped and tortured by these men on the orders of a tribal court because her brother had had an affair with one of the court officials' sister!!

Anyone else like to shed more light on this piece of news that had me gritting my teeth, so early in the morning??????!!!!!! :x

[Badri]

I know...I saw that news item too! Felt too angry to even say anything!! Even now, I feel so affected by it that I don't believe I can post anything coherently except to say that "barbaric" doesnt even come close to describe the incident and the people involved!!!

:x :x :x

[scorpio]

What is this? 'Eye for an eye', 'Tir for tat' maadiri, 'rape for affair' -aa??

All this only points to a basic problem- Illiteracy. The way females from urban and semi-urban areas get empowered and have the courage to break their shackles, if only the rural and tribal women get educated, our society can escape from backwardness, atleast partially.

Did any of you read about a woman who came to the court bravely to point fingers at her own husband for having molested her five years back? The school girl who was forcefully married to her molester, lived with him, bore a child and came to the court when the case came for hearing five years later, to plead for punishment for her present husband who has spoiled her life. Guess what happened then? She was killed by her ex-molester, present husband for having spoken the truth! :twisted:

[jaiganes]

Contrasting piece of news is Bilkis Bano identified the accused in court yesterday. Truth is women can get justice only if women's group and political parties back them. Sadly women's group is not all that powerful to cover for each and every affected woman in this country. Only solution it seems is to set up women's support group legal cells at district level composed of only women advocates. These groups can provide legal security in cases where women are the victims.

[Roshan]

niro and scorpio,

This is really sad and pathetic !! Lack of strict laws and corruption are major factors that help the culprits easily get away :twisted: Really sad !! :cry:

Months ago I saw a news in Junior Vikatan. There's this man in a village in TN - who is in his late 30s and married his niece(sister's daughter) who is just 9 years old. The man is already married and has children. When asked for the reason, he said, that he purposely did it to take revenge from his wife who had eloped with their neighbour (what a reason to give !! :twisted: ). The highlight is that he had re united with his wife later but doesnt want to send the poor little girl back to her parents. The worst and most annoying part is.. the wife says.. according to their custom once the 'thaali' is tide it can only be removed once the husband(?) is dead. She therefore says, the little girl has to remain as a wife of her husband but they'd take care of her as their daughter :twisted:

Intha kodumaiyai ennenRu solvathu.. :twisted: :cry: :cry:

[scorpio]

Roshan,

Yeah, I too read that! :banghead:

[Badri]

Intha mathiri news laan engirunthu kidaikutho!!!

Times like this, Ignorance is bliss...the more you hear about things like this, the more irritated you become with the entire human race!!

I know, media is helping a lot, by bringing these atrocities to light, so that remedial measures can be taken, but at the same time, I can't help feeling it would be a wonderful thing if we never really heard things that churn your stomach and make you mad with rage!!!

[blahblah]

Anyone else like to shed more light on this piece of news that had me gritting my teeth, so early in the morning??????!!!!!! :x

I didn't know they are acquitted.The incident happened many months back when this Gujar woman's 11 year old brother was seen walking with a high caste Mastoi tribe girl,the sister of one of the accused.They were said to be romantically involved!So the Mastoi tribal court ordered that she be raped by the girls brother and afew others.Six people were condemned to death some months back and now I hear that they are acquitted! :?

[Badri]

11 year old brother?????????

As Obelix would say, "These Mastois are crazy"

[lordstanher]

Nirosha,
Very sorry to hear abt the incident u mention! No doubt very shocking indeed.....but of course I've heard of similar 'revenge rape' cases happening even in Indian villages....and ultimately most hav the same ending- the culprits get away scot-free..... :(
Btw, my frend here tells me an equally brutal case of rape, of a ten-yr old girl tat happened aboard a train journey back in 1994......he cudn't rem. which part of India it hap'd but the worst part is this particular incident was never even reported in ne Indian newspaper/mag....guess y?? cos the 2 culprits who committed the crime together happened to be Army Officers, Lt. Generals or sumthing..... :x Turns out tat altho the 2 officers were found guilty for this act, the Army forbid the Indian press from reporting/publishing this incident in India fearing tat it'd turn out to be a disgrace to the Army....imagine! :evil: :evil:
But it was published in the Daily Tabloid, a UK newspaper, where my friend had found it.....turns out tat when the 2 officers were committing the crime, there was a junior officer/cadet in their train compartment who witnessed it but as his Seniors, they strictly forbid him from telling on them to neone.....but finally weeks later when he learnt of the agony the girl's parents were going thru, he decided to confess it all to their Army HQ, following which the culprit officers were court-martial'd or sumthing.....
But the irony is tat it still took quite sum time in this case for justice, plus the case was cleanly kept hidden from Indian public cos the culprits hap'd to be men of High rank/positions! Damn! :evil: :evil:
And I suspect there mite be a large no. of similar unreported cases in India...?
But if this is how officials of the Indian Army itself (who're supposed to protect our citizens, inc. women/children!) turn out to be, its surely the most pathetic disgrace of all! :evil:

[blahblah]

Lordstanher,on the contrary,most of these crimes are reported in Indian media.This country certainly enjoys some press freedom and a bit more than really needed :evil: .The only thing is that it seldom helps.There is a hue and cry for a few days,the media celebrates it and thats it.People forget things fast.

I dont think the army in India is strong enough to dictate terms to the media or to forbid them from publishing anything.The only thing these powerful villains can do is to make sure that it doesn't reach the media. :wink:

[Badri]

People forget things fast.

A truer word was ne'er said!! People are so wrapped up in their own individual lives that they cluck their tongues in sympathy for a few days and then it is back to their own sad lives!!

[lordstanher]

People forget things fast.

A truer word was ne'er said!! People are so wrapped up in their own individual lives that they cluck their tongues in sympathy for a few days and then it is back to their own sad lives!!

R all their lives sad?? :wink:
But yes, its true they certainly forget.....barring incidents where the victims r page 3 models! :x

[Querida]

Ugh Sick sick sick depraved people... :evil: :banghead: i could not believe what i was reading makes my blood just boil! do tell me what can we do?...i don't want to just cluck my tongue but what can i do?

[nirosha sen]

Somehow this kind of violence is worst in Muslim societies around the world. Particularly, Pakistan, Bangladesh and all those Arab countries, Pa!! What a curse it is to be born a woman in these places!!

In African societies, it is female circumcision!!! God, why this obsession with private parts alone???? Circumcision is certainly that you know!! Nothing but mutilation, be it for men or women!!
Sigh.....

[blahblah]

In African societies, it is female circumcision!!! God, why this obsession with private parts alone???? Circumcision is certainly that you know!! Nothing but mutilation, be it for men or women!!
Sigh.....

I wouldn't bring male circumcision as it is less risky and is advocated by many religions,though I am very mush opposed to the practice.W have to consider the subject under discussion too.

But female genital mutilation comes from all wrong and sexist assumptions.It takes inspiration from a statement which is attributed to Prophet Mohammed[but never proved],when he says,'it brings radiance to her face'.Mostly this is followed in very orthodox Muslim society as people feel that the unwanted desires of the woman will be kept at bay as circumcision either reduces or eliminates pleasure in the act of sex.The very purpose of female circumcision is sexist and is to stop a woman from eating the forbidden fruit.
Ihave heard that in North Sudan 80%women are circumcised,but many of them opposes doing it for their daughters.It is evident that this was done against their will.

[nirosha sen]

It is sheer butchery; done by women shamans under very unhygenic conditions with rusty blades!! What torture for the young girls, Pa!!

For what reason??? Preventing them to enjoy what????? A non-responsive woman makes a frigid partner, Pa!! So, where do they get this notion from??? :shock:

[Roshan]

But female genital mutilation comes from all wrong and sexist assumptions.It takes inspiration from a statement which is attributed to Prophet Mohammed[but never proved],when he says,'it brings radiance to her face'.

He never said it hence never proved. It's completely a wrong notion. I have done some wide reading and clarified with some Islamic religous scholars on this issue. It's just another false statement attibuted to Prophet Mohammed. It's a rule implemented by some un educated, male dominating societies.
Neither Quaran nor authentic Hadhiths mentions anything on female circumcision. Infact an Islamic Religious scholar told me that this practice is something "Haram" - prohibitted.


Mostly this is followed in very orthodox Muslim society

I dont know what you mean by orthodox here. There are orthodox Muslims in all parts of the world. As long as I know it is mostly practiced in Sudan ( as you said) and some parts of India. I have never seen or heard of such a practice among Muslims here in my country.

What ever the reason - it is indeed a highly condemnable act !!! Just another type of violance against women. :twisted:

[lordstanher]

Somehow this kind of violence is worst in Muslim societies around the world. Particularly, Pakistan, Bangladesh and all those Arab countries, Pa!!

Um...not really all Arab countries.....Saudi Arabia I've heard is a relatively safe place for women.....altho of course they don't hav total freedom in sum aspects (eg. having to wear burka in public, forbidden to drive cars), they r known to hav far better security & safety there comp'd to women who hav more freedom in most other countries.....I believe the punishment for rape/molestation in Saudi is straightaway death sentence and a guy can get arrested if he gives more than a momentary glance to a woman passing by.....!
On the other hand, there r sum Arab countries tat aren't tat safe 4 women even tho they may seem so.....for eg. Dubai, which is known to be a highly cosmopolitan /advanced Arab nation......most of u mite know tat there were many Indian girls/women who were sold into prostitution over there (and then taken to other countries) in the last 2 decades until our Govt. finally woke up & put a stop to it..... :evil:


Circumcision is certainly that you know!! Nothing but mutilation, be it for men or women!!Sigh.....

Again, as Roshan said, this practice is non-existant in most muslim countries, even in hardcore Islamic ones like Saudi......but yes I'm aware tat it still exists in Sudan and even Egypt (where I rem. they'd petitioned to ban the practice in 1997 but itwas declined! :evil: )

[blahblah]

Roshan,it was just a typing mistake and what I meant was very orthdox muslim societies in the world.I didn't mean to call thw whole Muslim society orthodox or refer to them in general.No hard feelings please.

[pavalamani pragasam]

Male circumcision is actually being encouraged by doctors for better maintenance of hygiene. But the barbaric African practice of mutilating female genitals need to be condemned in the strongest terms. I remember reading a detailed article about the practice in Readers’Digest long ago. It was a blood curdling article with all minute details of the cruel procedure described in uninhibited frankness. The famous African model who found asylum in England, herself a victim is the loud exponent of this atrocious anti-human barbarity.

[Roshan]

Somehow this kind of violence is worst in Muslim societies around the world. Particularly, Pakistan, Bangladesh and all those Arab countries, Pa!! What a curse it is to be born a woman in these places!!



Nirosha, I thought you were a mature individual. Please avoid making such sweaping statements. Please try to analyse the facts properly before giving opinions and please remember the fact that Pakistan and Bangaladesh have elected women as their country leaders in the past and present.


Roshan,it was just a typing mistake and what I meant was very orthdox muslim societies in the world.I didn't mean to call thw whole Muslim society orthodox or refer to them in general.No hard feelings please.

No hard feelings at all. I'm not that sensitive as regards religion :) So nothing to worry. I was just trying to point out the fact that - female circumcision has nothing to do with the religion. Besides I very well know that you are one of those who have a broard mind and understanding on such sensitive issues. I have always admired your unbiased views even when it comes to your own religion. I really appreciate that. So no hard feelings at all. :D

Cheers !! :D

[Roshan]

On the other hand, there r sum Arab countries tat aren't tat safe 4 women even tho they may seem so.....for eg. Dubai, which is known to be a highly cosmopolitan /advanced Arab nation......most of u mite know tat there were many Indian girls/women who were sold into prostitution over there (and then taken to other countries) in the last 2 decades until our Govt. finally woke up & put a stop to it..... :evil:



lordstanher,

I agree but on the other hand UAE is a libaralized Muslim country where women can just move around without any controls and restrictions. Unlike Saudi Arabia, women can wear whatever clothes they like as long as it's decent. Besides the government has implemented several plans for women's education and the number of local women seeking employment is also increasing.

[Roshan]

Male circumcision is actually being encouraged by doctors for better maintenance of hygiene.

Yes true !!! I remember a detail answer given by writer Sujatha in his book 'yEn yethaRkku yeppadi" on male circumcision. In that he had said, that usually in the US, doctors tend to encourage circumcision when a male child is born (no matter what religion the child belongs to).

[nirosha sen]

Woh!! Roshan???? What's bringing abt this tirade??? Female circumcision is indeed happening in the world, Pa!! And yes, it is only Muslim society that does it although in differing degrees. Some countries do them as total mutilation while others say it's merely a minute slice of the labia!!

I live in a Muslim country Pa!! This was a topic I had a chat with Muslim lady-friends and they said that it was indeed encouraged in their religion but not necessarily after reaching puberty!

Perhaps, they do not choose to talk abt it, primarily because it is a religious issue. The only reason it's been brought to notoriety is because of the publicity that the West has given it and the numerous testimonials that victims themselves have given.

[nirosha sen]

More on Mukhtar Mai's sad tale of horror : Today's papers gives a detailed account on how she was dragged out of a Council meet which had summoned her father and 13 yr old brother.

Mai is from the Gujar clan while her assailants are from the Mastoi clan. Apparently, her 13 yr old brother was allegedly sexually molested by the Mastoi men. So in order to cover up their crime, they cooked up a story abt her brother having had relations with a Mastoi woman!

They had set up a council meet and had tried to drag out her little brother there which was protested by her father, and were both hauled up before the council. In accompanying them there, the defenseless woman was suddenly pounced on by one of the Mastoi men, and dragged away kicking and screaming into one of the houses. The rest of the onlookers merely laughed except for the helpless raving and rantings of her weeping father.......

Despite the recent verdict, Mai continues to appeal for justice! :cry:

[Roshan]

I live in a Muslim country Pa!! This was a topic I had a chat with Muslim lady-friends and they said that it was indeed encouraged in their religion but not necessarily after reaching puberty!

Perhaps, they do not choose to talk abt it, primarily because it is a religious issue. The only reason it's been brought to notoriety is because of the publicity that the West has given it and the numerous testimonials that victims themselves have given.

Please try to understand that just because your friends say - it doesnt mean that it is said in the religion. May be your friends too are un aware or ignorant of such issues. I reiterate that female circumcision is NOT encouraged by the relgion. It's just another form of false belief and practice in the name of religion. For that matter no religion can be excluded of such beliefs and superstitions. If you go to question them they at once would attribute it to their religion or religious custom coz that's the easiest way of getting away with it. Like the 'thaali' issue of that 9 year old kid I mentioned before.

[scorpio]

Hi Women hubbers,

For a change, it is time to celebrate-

AsatoMa Satgamaya
TamasoMa Jyothirgamaya
MrityonMa amrutham gamaya
Shanti, Shanti, Shantihi!

Oh Woman!
From untruth, lead me to the Truth,
From Darkness, Lead me towards the Light,
From Death, Lead me to Life Eternal.
Let there be peace, harmony and tranquility.

HAPPY WOMEN"S DAY :thumbsup:

[nirosha sen]

And to you dear Scorpio! :D

Wonder how much we have come so far, in our rights as citizens of the world, Pa?????

There are still women out there who die a thousand deaths each day from mental and physical torture of all kinds. Let's spare them a thought as we ruminate on this special day! :(

[lordstanher]

Niro,
do u rem. there was an equally brutal rape case in an Indian village (can't rem. where or which state :? ) back in 1982/83.......there were 5 guys who gangraped a woman and even tho she took the matter upto court, they were all left scot-free! :evil: And worse- they even took 'revenge' on their victim by killing her once & 4 all! :evil: :twisted:

PS- Happy Womens' Day to u - didn't know it was today!

[a.ratchasi]

Just a follow up on the female circumcision matter

Both male and female circumcision is not a religious requirement.
Rather it is encouraged due to health reasons. :roll:

Circumcision for the girl child is done when she is in her infancy due to obvious reasons.

Anyways, there are 3 hukums (deeds).
i)Wajib
Hukum that falls under wajib are compulsary and are found in the Quran.
Failure to do is very sinful.
Examples of wajib, praying and fasting

ii)Sunat
It is good if you do the deed, where you earn your blessings if done. Otherwise, it is not a sin if you fail to do it.
Example:Circumcision

iii)Makruh
Deeds that are not categorised as sinful or blessings are called Makruh.
Example:Smoking


***words in italics are in malay

[lordstanher]

I agree but on the other hand UAE is a libaralized Muslim country where women can just move around without any controls and restrictions. Unlike Saudi Arabia, women can wear whatever clothes they like as long as it's decent. Besides the government has implemented several plans for women's education and the number of local women seeking employment is also increasing.

Yea I'm aware of tat.....was just trying to explain to Niro tat unjust acts against women don't necessarily happen only in countries tat r more 'restrictive' and dominating towards women, just bcos they happen to be Islamic ones. :wink:

[Roshan]

azhagana ratchasi,

You are always an azhagi (meaning great here) when it comes to analysing matters and trying to look at the facts properly. All what you have said is correct and I would like to make a small addition to the following. Hope you woudn't mind :)


ii)Sunat
It is good if you do the deed, where you earn your blessings if done. Otherwise, it is not a sin if you fail to do it.

Example:Circumcision

According to the religion, here circumcision means only male circumcision. Infact male circumcision is encouraged by all Abrahamic religions - Judaism, Christianity and Islam. Even now Jews practice it as much as the Muslims do.

Anyways, I think we have had enough on this issue and lets move on to something else. :)

Lordstanher,

Thanks. I understand your point !! :)

[nirosha sen]

Yes, let's move on folks!!! We are all aware of what's happening in societies, regardless of what the Ulamas say!

Ratchasi in particular should know what's happening in the M'sian context despite vigorous denials by authorities concerned. Recent arrest of those young Malaysian women in a famous nightspot is a case in point!!

Sadly, no matter what atrocities are done in the name of God, He/She could never be put in the docks with the rest of us, mere mortals, Pa!!

[a.ratchasi]

Niro, yes, I am indeed aware of what is happening locally.

Dont let the zealots' action influence you.
That incident you have mentioned was and is still being condemned by the majority of Malaysians.

I am not going to blame it on religion.
What those fellas did touched perversion at its max.
They are nothing more than a bunch of sick minds trying to play the role of 'moral' police.

[blahblah]

Hi Ladies,Happy women's day!It may be a bit of commercialisation, but makes me feel good to say it!
Enjoy yourselves!I was wondering what little thing I can buy for my wife, then thought that I will reach home early and go out with her than falling prey to Archies or Hallmark :wink: .

[a.ratchasi]

Hi Ladies,Happy women's day!It may be a bit of commercialisation, but makes me feel good to say it!
Enjoy yourselves!I was wondering what little thing I can buy for my wife, then thought that I will reach home early and go out with her than falling prey to Archies or Hallmark :wink: .

Blahblah, I dont know if your greetings would have made my day, but your intention to take your wife out to celebrate the day certainly did! :D

Have a splendid evening! :thumbsup:

[Roshan]

Blahblah, I dont know if your greetings would have made my day, but your intention to take your wife out to celebrate the day certainly did! :D

Have a splendid evening! :thumbsup:

Yes !!! :)

[Querida]

AWWWWW how sweet great idea what better way to celebrate than the spend time with your better half :D

[Guyana]

Was told to continue here from other topic: crimes against women.

I don't think the crimes against women discusssed and violence against women are the same things. The former refers to physical and psychological injury and theft of property, while the latter talks about physical abuse only. Any way, I did not notice this thread before.

[Guyana]

http://www.ctv9.ca/topnews.jsp?id=/news/stories/2005/06/news-20050622-04.htm

http://www.canada-city.ca/canada-immigration/posting.php?messageid=3698

Clash of cultures related to murder.

[Surya]

Hi Ladies,Happy women's day!It may be a bit of commercialisation, but makes me feel good to say it!
Enjoy yourselves!I was wondering what little thing I can buy for my wife, then thought that I will reach home early and go out with her than falling prey to Archies or Hallmark :wink: .

Why couldn't u take ur mom or sisters out for women's day?? :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

Just joking. :wink:

[lordstanher]

Why couldn't u take ur mom or sisters out for women's day?? :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:
Just joking. :wink:

Hey machi...u do hav a point man! :D Yea y not mom or sister.......they're women too......can always take ur wife out for Valentine's Day (if u believe in it....I don't!)......or of course ur wed. anniversary! :wink: :lol2:

PS- sorry for the digression!

[Surya]

:lol2: Exactly! Where is our friend BB? :?

[lordstanher]

Ok, reverting to the topic of the thread......I just read in msn groups abt an incident in bbay where a 16 yr old boy raped his own mother!! :shock: :evil: Tat is simply disgusting......can't find enuff words to describe it! Yuck! How perverted cud u get.....!! :evil: :evil:

[r_kk]

***** his own mother!! :shock: :evil: Tat is simply disgusting......can't find enuff words to describe it! Yuck! How perverted cud u get.....!! :evil: :evil:

Sorry Lordshander,
As he3 had pointed out earlier, you can't select some rare cruel events/incidences (call center issue, house wifes becoming victim of internet porno, Dr. Prakash's scandals etc..) and discuss those as the public or general issues.

I feel that this thread will be meaningful, if we talk about sufferings of women due the illogical practices of/mistreatement by a large segment of society (honor killing, dowry issues, fanatical laws/religious beliefs behind cruel punishments to woman etc etc).

[lordstanher]

Sorry Lordshander,
As he3 had pointed out earlier, you can't select some rare cruel events/incidences (call center issue, house wifes becoming victim of internet porno, Dr. Prakash's scandals etc..) and discuss those as the public or general issues.
I feel that this thread will be meaningful, if we talk about sufferings of women due the illogical practices of/mistreatement by a large segment of society (honor killing, dowry issues, fanatical laws/religious beliefs behind cruel punishments to woman etc etc).

U may be right in saying tat wat I mentioned was a rare/isolated incident & not one of a regular/general basis........but I did notice tat sumtimes even an isolated incident involving an 'ordinary' individual is mentioned here & becomes the subject of a discussion relating to a general/public issue.......? :?
Neways, if its considered irrelevant here, I wudn't mention it......! :D

[blahblah]

Why couldn't u take ur mom or sisters out for women's day?? :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:
Just joking. :wink:

Hey machi...u do hav a point man! :D Yea y not mom or sister.......they're women too......can always take ur wife out for Valentine's Day (if u believe in it....I don't!)......or of course ur wed. anniversary! :wink: :lol2:

PS- sorry for the digression!

So here are two big bullies trying to protray a noble act of self sacrifice in bad light. :lol:

You Surya and lordstanher,you may understand that I do not have a sister and my mother stays more than 1500 kms away! Will that be enough reason for one poor fellow not to take them out on women's day????
:evil: :evil:

[lordstanher]

So here are two big bullies trying to protray a noble act of self sacrifice in bad light. :lol:
You Surya and lordstanher,you may understand that I do not have a sister and my mother stays more than 1500 kms away! Will that be enough reason for one poor fellow not to take them out on women's day???? :evil: :evil:

Oooooops!! Sorry blah!! :? forgot tat ur mother lives away (in Kerala?).....my apologies!!!!!!! :D
PS>> 'hope u were joking while calling me a 'bully'......? 'cos I've never been one even in real life.....only got bullied around a lot! :D

[nms]

I dont know whether anyone have noticed that in Indian Movies the villain rapes and is punished (usually the victim marries him :banghead: ) and the hero goes unpunished for eve-teasing :cry: .Both are anti - women and are illegal.

There must be a change in the whole society.The education should have a sea-change teaching "how to live" rather than "to earn a living".Moral education should be given priority.Here most women wish to see her son as a high -scorer in all the subjects.But doesn't think about their character.

And the media....it's discrimination is the most.You can see photographs of prostitutes in dailies with headlines " AZHAGIGHAL KAIDHU" and not the men involved in that act. A recent example may be of Jayalakshmi.Almost all dailies and weeklies were writing their"COVER stories" on her private life.The involvement of Government Officials with respectful positions in the society was not in the forefront.

The perception and attitude towards women should change .It will take a long time and can be brought by only education and awareness.

[Vini Vidi Vici]

:lol2: Exactly! Where is our friend BB? :?
Who do you mean by BB? I would like to have some clarification about this.
Who or what is BB? Bad Boy, blahblah, Bridgette Bardot, Boris Becker, Bibi Jones, BB King, ....?
As I came to know from a thread in the History section that he is from Germany near Hannover I thought I may mail him as I am every week there in Hannover at the Medical High School to lecture there on surgery.

He has a funny witty way, I must say. What do you think about him?

[blahblah]

Who or what is BB? Bad Boy, blahblah, Bridgette Bardot, Boris Becker, Bibi Jones, BB King, ....?
As I came to know from a thread in the History section that he is from Germany near Hannover I thought I may mail him as I am every week there in Hannover at the Medical High School to lecture there on surgery.

He has a funny witty way, I must say. What do you think about him?

It is the same question what I wanted to ask you.You have named six of the BB's but yet I don't know whom you are mentioning here.I know two of them from Germany who are BadBoy and ofcourse our beloved Boris Becker.I certainly do not know some of the names you have mentioned.Anyway thanks for putting me in the same league. :D :D

I can see that you are doing some research on BB's.Are you teaching the same subject in that particular 'Hangover' school?? :twisted:

[Vini Vidi Vici]

It is the same question what I wanted to ask you.You have named six of the BB's but yet I don't know whom you are mentioning here.I know two of them from Germany who are BadBoy and ofcourse our beloved Boris Becker.I certainly do not know some of the names you have mentioned.Anyway thanks for putting me in the same league. :D :D

I can see that you are doing some research on BB's.Are you teaching the same subject in that particular 'Hangover' school?? :twisted:

As you make me turn my head - ouch, I tried to be a bunny but I am definitely not - towards you, you are a good BB too (what do you prefer? BB too or BB 2)

[Surya]

You Surya and lordstanher,you may understand that I do not have a sister and my mother stays more than 1500 kms away! Will that be enough reason for one poor fellow not to take them out on women's day????

That's exactly why I said I was kidding. Sorry though.

Bully? Did u foget what u did to poor old Madakkai? :wink: :lol:

Anywayz,

VVV,
Other than BadBoy, and Blah, I don't know any of the other BB's. :?

[lordstanher]

Bully? Did u foget what u did to poor old Madakkai? :wink: :lol:

Um.......u mean MANDANGI........tat other guy from AP......? :?
I do miss him & his catchy, to-the-point posts.......'wonder y he isn't visiting ne more......!

[lordstanher]

I dont know whether anyone have noticed that in Indian Movies the villain rapes and is punished (usually the victim marries him :banghead: ) and the hero goes unpunished for eve-teasing :cry: .Both are anti - women and are illegal.

Tats true.....its really ridiculous to insist tat the villain marry the victim as his 'punishment'! Tats like sum kind of a jungle law! :evil:


Moral education should be given priority.Here most women wish to see her son as a high -scorer in all the subjects.But doesn't think about their character.

Exactly! Its a similar case even when parents look for a groom for their daughters.......first thing they ask is wat his salary is! :evil:
They may think tat their daughters will be well-off w/out having to struggle if they marry guys w/ high salary/income......but therez no guarantee tat a high income earner wud be good enuff to spend part of his earnings for his wife's/family's happiness/comforts.......
in fact there r loads of young chaps w/ high earnings in the bigger cities who blow up their money lavishly on momentary or even unwanted pleasures/passtimes.......they don't care abt wat their character shud be like as they take it for granted tat their high income wud make them suitable for a good marriage alliance ne day!


And the media....it's discrimination is the most.You can see photographs of prostitutes in dailies with headlines " AZHAGIGHAL KAIDHU" and not the men involved in that act.

Happens all the time.......I rem. one fellow hubber saying in another thread tat instead of arresting prostitues, the men who go to them on each day shud all be arrested! Too bad its not really possible in reality tho.......

[blahblah]

I do miss him & his catchy, to-the-point posts.......'wonder y he isn't visiting ne more......!

If you really miss him,I can always tell you where to meet him. :wink: :D

And Surya,it is always nice to meet an old friend,particularly,one with a saffron coat. :lol:

[lordstanher]

If you really miss him,I can always tell you where to meet him. :wink: :D

Hmm....... :? ok in tat case do tell me......or send me a PM......


And Surya,it is always nice to meet an old friend, particularly,one with a saffron coat. :lol:

Saffron coat??!! :shock: Tat sounds like sumthing from the '70s.......they even wore shocking pink ones in those movies....... :tongueout: :lol:
Just kidding this time- I cud guess wat u actually meant..... :wink: :lol2:

Oh well, digression regretted again........! :roll:

[ssanjinika]

I dont know whether anyone have noticed that in Indian Movies the villain rapes and is punished (usually the victim marries him :banghead: ) and the hero goes unpunished for eve-teasing :cry: .Both are anti - women and are illegal.


Funny you should bring that up...I was following the story of the Pakistani woman who was ordered to be gang raped by the village council and another one which happened in Madhya Pradesh( I think) where a woman was ordered to marry her father in law bcoz he raped her.The village heads decided that the husband she was with for 13 years was now her son and she had become the wife of the father in law when he raped her .
How can people think this way.Is illiteracy the root cause of it ? Its baffling.

[blahblah]

I was following the story of the Pakistani woman who was ordered to be gang raped by the village council and another one which happened in Madhya Pradesh( I think) where a woman was ordered to marry her father in law bcoz he raped her.The village heads decided that the husband she was with for 13 years was now her son and she had become the wife of the father in law when he raped her .
How can people think this way.Is illiteracy the root cause of it ? Its baffling.

We have already discussed the case of Mukhtiar mai which you are referring to.

As for the second case I too am outraged though there are factual errors in what you have written,for example,it was not a order/judgement ,but a 'learned opinion/interpretation of Islamic law'.Further,contrary to the reports in media,the scholars didn't ask the victim to marry the rapist. :)

But none of these things can reduce the injustice that had been committed against the victim.The ruthless media torned her into pieces and the Chief Minister refused to intervene in support of the woman.I am of the opinion that the media should willingly offer the victim compensation for violating her right to privacy and violating the Supreme court directive on treatmet of rape victims by disclosing her name and details.

Word by word interpretation of religious texts,instead of an interpretation in the spirit of the text doesn't help either.At the end of the day,these 'learned men' look like donkeys in the sight of the public :evil: :x .

[ssanjinika]

As for the second case I too am outraged though there are factual errors in what you have written,for example,it was not a order/judgement ,but a 'learned opinion/interpretation of Islamic law'.Further,contrary to the reports in media,the scholars didn't ask the victim to marry the rapist. :)


Thanks blahblah for pointing out the factual mistakes in my post...I guess I was just too shocked by the whole incident that I misinterpreted the news reports..or dare I hope the news reports were a bit too creative :P
Anyways jokes aside the issue is serious..whats even more appaling is the fact that the government /law cannot do anything about it for fear it would spark communal riots.
Of course its not always the men who do the injustice...a lot of times men are victims too but any discussions on that would be out of context under this topic :P

[Surya]

And Surya,it is always nice to meet an old friend,particularly,one with a saffron coat. :lol:

Why thank you! I take that as a compliment!! :D :D Although I'd prefer a saffron bandanna. :wink:


I do miss him & his catchy, to-the-point posts.......'wonder y he isn't visiting ne more......!

I think our Blah *2 here has probably created a permenant phobia of public forums for Mr.Katty. :lol2:

[nirosha sen]

I'm really disturbed by the news of that rape in Madhya Pradesh, guys!! Isn't India a secular country with a common code of law for all its citizens???? So, why cut so much slack for religious laws???? :shock:

[blahblah]

I'm really disturbed by the news of that rape in Madhya Pradesh, guys!! Isn't India a secular country with a common code of law for all its citizens???? So, why cut so much slack for religious laws???? :shock:

Sorry,I forgot to point out another factual error in Sanjinika's post.Muzaffarnagar where this incident took place is not in Madhya Pradesh,but in Uttar Pradesh.

India is ofcourse a secular nation but not with a common code of law.When it comes to personal law,the Muslim Personal Law Board acts as a competent authority to carry out the Shariat law[I object to this].Unfortunately the right wing Hindu fundamentalists have made it a habit to make use of every such incident to malign the Muslim faith that they have driven most of the Muslims to an extent where they can't accept a Uniform Civil Code.

Today,a common Muslim has more faith in their own 'out of the age' laws than in the Indian Penal Code and I am forced to say that a very small group of Hindus[who deserve as much punishment as the Taliban]is responsible for it.

A uniform civil code is a real need and it is the solemn duty of the citizens of India[who belong to other religions]to convince the Muslims that it wont be used as a tool to suppress them.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Note to mods:Though religion is a forbidden subject here,you can surely understand that I am speaking for national interest here.I believe I am not biased and that my views are balanced.So please let my post stay here! :D

[pavalamani pragasam]

[tscii:55306f14ea]News in today’s(23-7-’05) “Mumbai Mirror”:

23 lakh young men may not find brides in 5 years

1.37 crore female foeticides in a decade jolt NHRC, panel chief warns of serious implications if situation continues.

Chandigarh: With 1.37 crore female fetuses destroyed following sex determination tests in the last decade, National Human Rights Commission(NHRC) on Friday expressed concern over the menace of female foeticide and warned that if the situation continued, over the next five years, over 23 lakh young men may not find brides.There are enough laws to check sex determination tests but their implementation remains poor, NHRC chairperson justice A S Anand told reporters on the sidelines of a workshop on HIV/AIDS. ‘I cannot recall one incident where a diagnostic centre has been closed down( which was found guilty of carrying out such test). This is a murky business,’ he lamented.

Expressing concern over the declining sex ratio, he said 204 districts in the country had skewed ratio and added ‘if this situation continues, over the next five years 23 lakh young men may not find brides to marry.’

Even in the national capital, the sex ratio was 819 females per 1,000 males, he said adding only public awareness can help tackle the problem.
[/tscii:55306f14ea]

[r_kk]

[tscii:c537370c3d]

where a woman was ordered to marry her father in law bcoz he raped her.The village heads decided that the husband she was with for 13 years was now her son and she had become the wife of the father in law when he raped her .
How can people think this way.Is illiteracy the root cause of it ? Its baffling.

Many times, I had raised a question about the holiness of religions itself. Whether we have to consider religions as great and holy and blame just few humans as if they had interpreted wrong. Do you think that the village heads had taken their own decision or their interpretations are wrong?

Just read Sura 33:36-38 to understand which is wrong. Religions or its interpretations. I don’t want to explain further. I am leaving to individual’s own understanding. Read point 6 & 7 of the following web site if you nned any more details
http://www.fam.aust.com/helal/alhaqq/AniIslam/woman.html

[/tscii:c537370c3d]

[Shekhar]

A couple of years ago, the Supreme Court directed the Central Government to evolve a common civil code as response to a public interest litigattion.
Of course no government has the political will and guts to bring in a modern civilised common civil code for the fear of losing minority votes.
An other option is to modernise and truly "civilise" the civil code of each religions. Though the Hindu civil code has been amended innumerable times to the advantage of women, including property rights, abuse and divorce procedures, any attempt to change the muslim civil code, the clerics shout holy murder. Infact in the famous Shah Bano case, the Rajiv Gandhi Govt. went to extent of amending constitution to evade supreme court ruling which would have given life sustenance to the innumerable hapless women who are left in lurch by the husbands.

[pavalamani pragasam]

[tscii:cfe814c5db]From a very sensible & enlightening article by Shabana Azmi in today’s “Hindustan Times:

What you’d rather not know about the girl child..

..In the posh areas of Mumbai such as Colaba, 860 girls were born for every 1000 boys in 2003. In New Delhi, the residents of the affluent South Delhi are among the worst offenders. Late last year a survey of births in hospitals in the area revealed that only 762 girls were born per 1000 boys. In a normal population there should be more than 950 girls for every 1000 boys.

The fact is that the worst form of discrimination and violence against girls is perpetrated in affluent, educated, urban families across the country. It is practiced silently, behind closed doors, with the active connivance of doctors and with the use of technology. Two words describe this phenomenon- sex selection. Selection of the desirable sex and elimination of the unwanted one.

An analysis of the statistics reveals interesting patterns. The worst child sex ratio is in the more prosperous states, in Himachal Pradesh, Punjab, Haryana, Gujarat and Maharashtra. These are all the states where the rate of literacy is higher than the national average and where economic growth is higher than in other regions. Baffled? Look around you, in your neighbourhoods, and you will begin to get the clues. Notice the mushrooming of ultrasound clinics and nursing homes and you will see a pattern. Technology is providing the answers, not just for the way we run our lives, but also how we influence the creation of life itself.

There is an Act (The Preconception and Pre-natal Diagnostic Techniques or PCPNDT Act) that prohibits sex selection, before or after conception. Testing the sex of a child before it is born is illegal. Sadly, there have been no convictions under this Act so far: The only real impact has been that the practice has gone underground.

Sex selection, however, is not only about technology. It is about the status women have in society and the prejudices they face from the time they are conceived. Amongst educated families (if that is indeed an appropriate term) the desire is for two children, a result of years of conditioning to “Hum do, hamare do”. Of the two, one child most certainly has to be male. So, what happens if the first child is a girl? Subsequent daughters are eliminated until a boy is conceived. Propertied families would rather not have the burden of a girl, lest the son-in-law demand a share of the goodies once the daughter is married. In families that have no landed property or assets, the issue is one of dowry. In short, daughters are an economic liability.

A common argument that I have heard people use for their preference of sons is that since women often face a raw deal in life, it is better not to bring one more into the world. This is like saying that it is justifiable to eliminate poor people to prevent them from suffering a life of deprivation. If we fear having to give dowry, let us eliminate dowry, not daughters. If we fear that a girl will go through life facing violence, let’s eliminate violence, not women. Is daughter slaughter the response of a mature society?

So, what are the consequences of having a society that has a paucity of girls? My friends often jest that it will be a blessing in disguise because it will increase the value of girls. Anecdotal evidence demonstrates how far that assumption is from reality. In states like Haryana, where sex selection has been practiced over a period of time, the results are already visible. Incidents of trafficking of girls from poor areas are in the increase. The girls are ‘bought’ and forced into polyandry. Instances of child prostitution and abduction are already being reported.

What then will be the structure of society be with a paucity of women? What will the consequences be for the family unit and community, and what of the institution of marriage?

Imagine the plight of women forced into polyandrous marriages. I shudder to think how much more vulnerable a woman would be to sexually transmitted diseases and HIV/Aids. What of the increase in violence against women? One can only conjecture, but the possible scenarios are frightening…Stop sex selection.
[/tscii:cfe814c5db]

[Roshan]

Hi to Shekhar and blahblah ! :D

[Shekhar]

Hi Roshan :D :D Nice to see you too.. :wink:

PP mam's post is extremely disturbing. Ours must be the most hypocritical society in the whole world.
But the way woman has evolved and emancipated in the past two decades, definitely gives hope of a great "come back" of Woman in India, like never before.
Infact, seeing women growing in stature in society and hijacking every field from men, I get scared sometimes that we may be heading towards a woman dominated society!! :wink: :)
But in the villages.... yes.. it is a matter of concern :cry: :(

[ssanjinika]

I wonder if anyone saw the movie "Matruboomi".Its a movie about a futuristic India where due excess female infanticide ,the felmale population becomes so low that there are not enough women for the men to marry and live with.There is this family consisting of a father and 5 sons.Due to the lack of women in society all the 5 men marry the same woman. And the story starts from there.I havent watched this movie but I heard that it got international recognition.

[nirosha sen]

:lol: Well, Mahabharat had already beat them to it, folks!! Her name was Draupathi and her husbands were the Panch Pandavas!

[ssanjinika]

True..but Mahabarath was not in the woman's point of view..it certainly did not explore Draupadi's relationship with each of her husbands.This story is a stark view about what would happen to societies where the female population is so low that men have to share wives.
Come on NS where is your imagination ???With so many women available only we see so many instances of rape,tourture for dowry and what not in our society ,what would happen in a world where there are not enough women to begin with?Do you think they will be cherished just because they are difficult to find?? :lol:

[Shekhar]

I would like to live in a society where there are atleast three women (if not five) to each man!! Wow!! :D :D :D

[Shekhar]

True..but Mahabarath was not in the woman's point of view..it certainly did not explore Draupadi's relationship with each of her husbands.

Sanjanika..It does. It is quite a revelation on Draupadi's maturity.

[pavalamani pragasam]

Shekar, you may rue your fate if & when your wish comes true! Please read my story, "India smiles" in the story section :lol:

[lordstanher]

I would like to live in a society where there are atleast three women (if not five) to each man!! Wow!! :D :D :D

:shock: Um.....'hope ur only joking mate, or atleast 'hope tats how it sounds to ur better 1/2......'cos as u might've heard, 2 can play the same game :wink: :lol:
and wat w/ today's scenario where both the sexes strive to attain similarity in just abt everything, I wudn't reckon this impossible..........('nuff said!) :lol: :lol: :lol:

Just joking myself......no offence! :wink: :D

[Surya]

I would like to live in a society where there are atleast three women (if not five) to each man!! Wow!! :D :D :D

Be careful what u wish for, u might get it! :lol:

[stranger]

Honestly, Shekhar's comment reminds me of a "joke" in the latest Rajni movie! :lol:

[Surya]

:shock: :o
Stranger,
I really hope that ur not talking about...."Oruthanukku yezhindhu nikka mudiyaliya, annal avanukku 9 pondati kekutha."

That is brutal! :wink:

[stranger]

Of course, such a comment might sound brutal as it is "violent" against men! But that beautifully describes the "dirty attitude" of several "cheap men" who are living in our society today! 8)

We cant avoid getting brutal when dealing with brutes! 8)

[lordstanher]

We cant avoid getting brutal when dealing with brutes! 8)

Ahh.....interesting..... :D reminds me of a dialogue by Amitabh B in the movie "Agnipath".......the transl. is sumthin like: "This world itself is quite spoilt, so its necessary to remain spoilt if you want to survive"......not always true I feel tho..... :wink: :D

[pavalamani pragasam]

What you feel is right, lordstanher :)

[Shekhar]

Be careful what u wish for, u might get it! :lol:

Oh yea.. You are right. Infact one is one toomany for any man!! :wink: :lol: :lol:

[lordstanher]

What you feel is right, lordstanher :)

Glad there r ppl. who think it is right, Mrs. PP! :wink: :D