25. ENGIRUNTHO AZHAIKKUM EN GEETHAM [Archive]

Manisekaran

3rd January 2005, 02:47 PM

25. ENGIRUNTHO AZHAIKKUM EN GEETHAM
Here is a story of the taste for film music taking a diametrically opposite stand- thanks to the coming of Raja. We have seen that as afar as possible Raja had tried to avoid copying from earlier tunes. The one other area that Raja deliberately avoided was copying from Hindi tunes. When Raja came to the industry, there was a craze to copy Hindi tunes into Tamil songs. Raja was of the strong opinion that Tamil songs should have their separate natural identity or MAN VAASANAI. He felt there was much to be experimented in the Tamil songs. The Tamil language was already being adulterated with so much foreign words, and Raja had no control over that. But he was pretty confident that he could impose upon an area where he could dictate terms. He did this in composing the songs, many times on pure carnatic Ragas. As Raja was churing out excellent songs year in and year out, the cine song fans had more and more of the Tamil tunes to taste, and the craze for Hindi tunes were completely driven into oblivion. By the first few years, Hindi tunes were chased beyond the borders of Tamilnaadu. The Hindi craze was completely substituted with Raja’s tunes.

As far as possible the Mumbai producers and MDs had all along avoided copying tunes from Tamil songs. However, Raja’s influence was simply too tempting I suppose. After struggling hard to falling into the trap of Raja’s music, they finally succumbed and conceded total defeat. Hindi singers yearned to sing under Raja. Both Lata Mangeshkar and Asha Bhosle were desiring to sing under Raja’s music. It was Asha who sang first. One could remember SHENBAGAME SHENBAGAME by Asha in ENGA OOR PAATTUKKARAN. Then came Lata in ENGIRUNHTO AZHAIKKUM EN GEETHAM in EN JEEVAN PAADUTHU.

Raja’s music drew attention from the Hindi composers. Rakkamma Kaiyai Thattu was one song that was copied from Raja. One would remember BBC selected that song from among 166 countries under the heading of Song of the Planet. The news dated 21 November 2002 says “Tamil track heads song poll. A Tamil song is currently in the lead in a poll to find the most popular tune in the world, beating tracks by the Beatles, Queen and Led Zeppelin. The song, Rakkama Kaiya Thattu, features in Indian film Thalapathi, made in 1991. It was written by a film lyricist called Valee and the music composed by Ilayaraja. Its leading position indicates the fact that India has so far submitted the most votes in the BBC World Service poll on its website.”

Within a span of just 15 years the Hindi film industry copied Raja’s songs. Chinnathamby songs were also copied later.

In 1999 the Madhya Pradesh government conferred upon Raja the LATA MANGESHKAR AWARD for his achievement in music.

The great Hindi composer Naushad Ali, whom I met personally in the Mumbai Holiday Inn Hotel in December 2001 had many nice things to say about Raja. He had earlier made a public statement as follows: “ What this man has achieved is 100 times more than what any of us have achieved; only time can tell the quantum of his achievements”

Coming from Naushad Ali, which is the best accolade anyone can give on Raja. That was the barometer to gauge the superb musical mind of Raja. I consider that the best award Raja could have received from the Doyen of Hindi Film Music.

I personally consider ENGIRUNTHO AZHAIKKUM the best of all songs sung by northerners in Raja’s music. This may not be a landmark song, but I have marked it as one that, to my taste happens to be the very best, sung by northerners. The orchestration is most uplifting to the soul. Hindi songs, almost always used violins to enhance the melody. Here Raja too has used violin in most effective and moving way. But we do see raja excelling in the background and orchestration.

The talent quest winner tried her best to sing out this song. It was recorded, and finally omitted, as she was no close to Lata’s performance.

Listen to it: http://tfmpage.com/cgi-bin/song.pl?id=mani-25.1

I am sure readers have much to agree and disagree on this subject. Let us have the views.

kiru

4th January 2005, 12:04 AM

Definitely, Lata was not in her prime, when she sang this song. But I think, one can HEAR her in the latter part of the charanams - the coolness in the top octaves. Similary, the ageing voice of Yesudass was used in pithamagan, again requiring singing at higher octaves. Vijay,Madhu have a long way to go in this area. No wonder a talent quest singer could not do justice to this song.

This song could be considered a best representative example of a melody that IR was doing those days. A tabla (almost looped, with no variations), a varying bass line, a harmony line that adds character to the song, like the bell like sound in this one and strings backing in the later/higher octave part of the charanams. Also, note, the stings backing for the last pallavi singing. Apparently, something ominous happens on screen when the song ends. Strings are better used for this, so they start out with the pallavi and end with the ominous note - raaja's BGM touch in the song itself.

kiru

4th January 2005, 12:14 AM

I forgot the flute fills - flute is to raaja what a lead guitar is to a rock musician.

Manisekaran

4th January 2005, 08:32 AM

PONNU OORUKKU PUDHUSU

Yesterday the ASTRO Satellite station showed Ponnu Oorukku Pudhusu. This time I watched the movie witha learning eye and a listening ear. The village was introduced as Pannaipuram. There were mention of Devaram and Thenee.

Could someone confirm if the village shown is the actual Pannaipuram where Raja comes from.

Thank you.

Manisekaran

NOV

4th January 2005, 09:17 AM

I too watched the movie POP, paying attention to what you have mentioned abt the song. :)
Was also wondering whether one of the houses could be Ilayaraja's birthplace!

What great songs! Pity that they have sunk to obscurity now. :(

SN23

4th January 2005, 12:09 PM

Some way or other i also think that some other native singer could have sung better. May be Latha could not sing with the actual meaning of the words. Moreover her voice did not suit that actress (sudha ?, who married director bharath of one terror movie acted by sarath babu, rajkumar and sunitha). Sudha looked very young to the aged voice of latha. Chitra could have been a better choice.

M Madhanraj

4th January 2005, 04:27 PM

Mr Manisekaran

Since we are talking about Pannaipuram. I have some sweet memories about it and I thought let me share with you all. It was year 1985. I was doing my +1. IR & GA - they have celeberated Pavalar's Birthday in Pannaipuram. I heard that time 5 Acres of land was made very clean and stage was made in the center. It was open for all. Since my native was BODI (40 Minutes Bus travel to PP from Bodi), I got an opporunity to visit PP. You will not believe the MAD crowd (on IR's Music). It was like TEMPLE FESTIVAL. All the buses were re-routed to PP that evening. Almost 3 lakh people gathered in the ground and I was one among them. Just imagine it.
They have started the program, GA started with one of Thai Moogamibika's song. IR was singing 'IDHAYAM ORU KOIL' and GA & Chitra were singing 'ANDHA NILAVATHAAN KAIYILA PIDITCHANE'. MV was singing 'POONGATRU THIRUMBUMA...' It was just mesmorising. Unfortunately RAIN GOD came and disrupted after 13 songs. IR & Co. waited for sometime and whole crowd got very upset and they have disbursed from that place. On return we did not get BUS. We had to walk upto nearby THEVARAM town and got the bus in the Morning. Whole night we were in PP that day. It's still green in my heart.

Thanks for going thru' full text.

Regards

M Madhanraj

thumburu

4th January 2005, 06:25 PM

"Engirundho" is another case of a classic song spoiled due to poor choice of singers. IR's version was only marginally better than the over aged Latha's. But the interludes were different in both versions and were great. But the most haunting song from the movie was SJ'S "ore murai un dharisanam". How I wish SJ had sung this also instead of Latha!!!

gragavan

4th January 2005, 09:43 PM

When Raja came to the industry, there was a craze to copy Hindi tunes into Tamil songs. Raja was of the strong opinion that Tamil songs should have their separate natural identity or MAN VAASANAI. He felt there was much to be experimented in the Tamil songs. The Tamil language was already being adulterated with so much foreign words, and Raja had no control over that.
Hi Manisekaran, Nice writeup. But a small comment. I dont understand how many hindi tunes were used in tamil movies when Raja entered TFM. MSV, the predecessor of IR was strongly discouraging reusing hindi tunes even for the movies remade from hindi. He was bold enough to refuse the offer to score music for MGR's movie (Naalai Namathaey). I couldn't trace any song resued by KVM also. Proabably you can point out Veda, but those were handful of movies. Please clarify if I am wrong.

IR's entry in TFM is a good change and he leapt to bring new dimensions to TFM, and nobody can deny that. But I really dont understand the talk of TFM degrading at his entry. I dont think IR will enjoy such comments on him. I am surprised to read such comment in your writeup.

Even when IR was in his peak, so many hindi movies like Maine Pyar Kiya, Tezab, KMSKMT were quite popular and their songs too were appreciated by TFM fans. No need to mention that Hawa Hawa song. Whatever be the quality, those songs could penetrate fortress of the southern listener, which was sealed for Hindi songs in general. It doesnt mean that IR didnt do well. Similar thing could have happened in 70s also. In my opinion, when we write some great achievements like our "Raja Raja Thaan", we need to be unbiased. And it is not a good practise to make unfavourly statements on others to praise somebody. Sorry for the comment. In general, I could not digest you, the person with detail knowledge about TFM, writing such things.

Regards,
Ragavan

Music4Ever

5th January 2005, 12:55 AM

eden

5th January 2005, 02:01 AM

G Raghavan,
Whether there was `musical influence' by Hindi or not during the pre-IR days / post-IR days cannot be commented by me (which is for musical pundits to analyze and conclude, obviously).

However, as someone who closely followed the listening trends / cultural trends of 70's & 80's (from real grass root levels -especially in small villages and small towns...big cities could have been even more polarised towards north/foreign music), I can vouch for the sea change from the immediate period pre-IR-entry and after, toward TFM...(I'm not referring to the 60's but mid / late 70's)

Pre-IR-entry : Those with gramaphone players in their home collected mostly `Hindi LP records' or `western' while TFM was reserved for commercial `sound-set' people who organized the noise for marriages and such functions (and invariably stuck to MGR-Sivaji songs). The `educated' and `elite' found pride in telling `I don't listen to TFM stuff...me only `vellai panni' (jocular reference for a famous hindi MD) etc.'.

Post-IR-entry : Though the 45 RPM continued for a while in TFM, it was fast getting replaced with the 33 1/3 RPM and IR's music was hot - not only with the `sound-set' noise makers with horn speakers, but also with those who snob around with their own musical systems...then with compact cassette becoming popular in the early 80's (with the burma bazar panasonics, ofcourse:-)), initially it was recording from radio broadcasts but later the recording centers that became very popular, all to make TFM-available-on-demand.

Certain hindi songs like qurbani were ofcourse very popular in TN despite IR's musical feasts, but it was no longer considered `elite-taste', but just another variety...

Music4Ever

5th January 2005, 03:03 AM

I must humbly submit, however, that those with a liking for anything remotely Hindi continued to listen to Hindi songs into early and mid eighties, even after the advent and subsequent popularity of Ilayaraja. At college these admirers invariably had Hindi as the language subject. At the mass level, IR certainly made heavy inroads, but Hindi was never popular with those masses to begin with. It is inconceivable that IR, whose numbers were largely folk to begin with, would almost overnight change the tastes of the so-called "elite" listeners. The change, if at all any, would have been slow and over a large period of time.

senthilv.com

5th January 2005, 03:07 AM

Kiru:

Azhagi song trivia is not about the lyrics. It's about the prelude.

Ragavan:

I think, Manisekaran is writing from the insider perspective. The songs of the period might not truly reflect the insider buzz of that time and I doubt he is referring to MSV or KVM.

Eden:

Very good points.

Raaja not only created a trend but he took the baton from MSV and "saved" TFM with his powerful music.

Manisekaran

5th January 2005, 06:33 AM

Ragavan,

Thank you so much for your comments. Perhaps I should have made things clear. That Hindi tunes were popular just before IR's entry was a statement made by Panju Arunasalam- who has been deeply immersed in song writing.

Yes,I have the video tape of MSV in a program called Thirayum Isayum which he himself directed. In that program, he even says that he initially refused to compose for Naalai Namathe on the fear that he may be influenced by Yadon Ki Barat. But he went ahead to give tunes which were original. We do appreciate his stand.

Lioni from Dindigul has stated in a few of his programs that IR chased hindi influence beyond the borders of Tamilnaadu.

Next, Panju even made a bolder statement to say that the reason why he was looking for new talents (IR) was because of the degeneration in the Tamil Film music. That would be a direct blow on MSV/ KVM. Radio Singapore, as early as 1972, in a special program said that MSV's music was already on the decline. The station quoted the film Raman Ethanai Ramanadi. But I thought the songs there were good- at least Ammadi ponnukku Thanga Manasu and Sithirai Maatham Powrnami Neram.

I am only providing the good side of Ilayaraja- firstly on the request of the IR fans, and secondly IR has already been hit hard by his bashers. I wanted to take a middle path. Kindly look at the song Nallavarkellaam.Reservations were expressed, and I left it to the readers to decide the style I ought to follow. By and large they wanted me to write on the good side alone. But I am equally capable of revealing more and more of highly explosive news, information and facts that would create tsunami tidal waves. That was never the purpose. We are discussing IR's music, and not the man.

Thanks for calling me a knowledgeable person on TFM. But I have always said that I am not a knowledgeable person. Kindly look at the mistakes, nay blunders I have made, and how I have been corrected by more knowledgeable persons.

This series in not any attempt to satisfy any reader. I write my observations and opinions without fear or favour. Simply sorry that digestion is left to the readers. I still stand by my views, and would continue to do so. Even the last sentence in my recent posting says that readers may agree or disagree with my views. That is the freedom that readers ought to be given. Let me enjoy my freedom as a writer.

I made a statment to say that the song Engiruntho Azhaikum En Geetham was the best to be sung by Northerners. But many are differing, and feel that Chitra or SJ would have been a better choice. It is this disagreement that makes the discussion lively and makes me happy.

You need to be sincerely thanked for standing by your views. It is the clash of opinions (not emaotions) that brings out the spark of truth. You are enriching the discussions.

Anbudan,
Manisekaran

Manisekaran

5th January 2005, 07:13 AM

Madhanraj,

As I was watching the movie Ponnu OOrukku Pudhusu, I had a feeling that Ilayaraja would ahve returned to his native village to entertain the villagers with his songs. You have confirmed my thoughts.t is a case of telepathy. Your posting is first time and first hand information for me. I am still learning.

Are you able to confirm if the village shown in the film ponnu oorukku Pudhusu is the actual Pannaipuram? I want to visit the village in my next visit to Tamilnadu.

Nanriyudan
Manisekaran

kiru

5th January 2005, 09:29 AM

I think MSV set the lyrics to tune most of the time. This way he was constrained or could give music only to the sandhams of the favored/limitied lyricists. Fortunately, there were talented lyricists who gave more meaningful words.
In contrast, IR most of the times, gives out the tune first. This way he dictates the sandhams. When ARR came, some discerning listeners appreciated the injection of new sandhams in film music. So this probably is one technical reason for the 'rejuvenation' of the film music industry, apart from more use of the folk or western classical idioms. But I am just speculating. Other, more knowledgeable posters can chime in.

Renault

5th January 2005, 09:41 AM

In the title credits of the movie "Karakattakaaran" in one of the frames, Ilayaraja will be shown sitting beside a hut in a state of thinking.

In my wild guess that should be his home in Pannaipuram. The movie being produced by Gangai Amaran is the strong clue in my guess. The title credits of the movie will be shown in a different fashion considering the movie came out in 1989 and Gangai Amaran would have loved to show himself and Ilayaraja with their rural backgrounds when their respective title credits are displayed.

Not sure if someone can conform this.

gragavan

5th January 2005, 02:06 PM

On the other hand, MSV used a couple of Hindi numbers for his tamil songs. One was Irandu kaigal Naanganal in Tirisoolam which clearly reminds a number from the North Indian original movie. The second one was Sambo sivasambo in NinaithalE inikkum (from the hindi number Mehabooba mehabooba).

It is surprising that MSV discouraged using Hindi tunes.Hi, Even there are examples with IR, (Nallaverkellam and Kanavu Kaanum Vaazhkai ), and it doenst mean IR didnt discourage hindi tune reusage. Exceptions cant be the examples. :-)
regards,
G.Ragavan

Manisekaran

5th January 2005, 02:59 PM

Dear Brothers Music4ever and Ragavan,

Let me see if I can make it clearer still. I was not discussing about Tamil MDs copying from Hindi tunes per se. I was trying to mention about the strong craze for Hindi songs. All of us may remember Bobby, Aa Gale Lag Jaa, Aap Ki Kasam and Yaadon Ki Barat that came just before Raja was about to enter the industry. I msyelf had seen these movies a couple of times. They were instant hits in Malaysia. Sholay was deliberately delayed by the government of Malaysia as even the local Malay people were composing from Hindi tunes. Such was the impact and craze in my country. All I intended to say was that Ilayaraja had provided good music and substitued the craze for Hindi songs with that of Tamil songs. It is an open secret that when IR was dominating in the south, the north did not have many great movies with great songs.

I did not mention the names of MSV/ KVM or any other MDs copying from Hindi tunes. It was the craze I was trying to say. I feel music is universal and nothing harm in copying from foreigners so long as it serves its purpose of entertaining us.

I also believe copying would go on forever.

Some quick examples:-

1971- Justice Visvanathan- Kan Vazhiye- Vedha
1971- Arunothayam- Enga Veettu Thanga Theril-almost the tune of the Aradhana song Gungunare -KVM
1972 Kanimuthu Pappa- Raathayin Nejname- Sharmilee song
1972- Nalla Neram - Tick Tick - almost the tune of the Hathi Mere Saathi song-KVM
1975- Uthaman- Kelai magane- Aye Mere Beti- Aa Gale Lag Jaa song -KVM

During IR's period copying continued. Ore Jeevan from Neeya (1979) and of course Vennilla Thanga Thattu etc.

There had been exchange of tunes from both sides.

It is a fact, as brother Ragavan has pointed out, that MSV was very firm in not following Hindi tunes. Just look at all the Sujata Cine arts Productions of Balaji, and later Naalai Namathe and even Sivagamiyin Selvan. MSV too has some exceptions as pointed out by Music4ever. Same goes for Ilayaraja, as in the case of Neengal Kettavai.

Thanks to Music4ever and Ragavan for the stimulating thoughts and postings.

I personally feel that copying may go on forever. So I was talking of craze for Hindi songs. If I have given the wrong signals, then I must apologise. Very sorry. Really sorry to everyone.

Music4ever and Ragavan,
Can I, with your permission, move on to the next song?

Manisekaran

rajeshkrv

5th January 2005, 03:04 PM

HAathi meri saathi was produced after the hit of nalla neram
So tamil should be the original.

yvsmani

5th January 2005, 03:08 PM

I feel valayosai kalakalavena was more good than engiruntho azhaikkum. ( pronunciation as well as voice)

Manisekaran

5th January 2005, 03:18 PM

Rajeskrv,

Deiva Cheyal was produced by Dandayuthapani films in 1967. It was starred by Muthuraman and happened to be an utter flop. Then Devar took Hathi Mere Saathi in 1971, it became an instant hit. It was said that within the first few weeks Devar recovered the cost of production and the rest was to be profit. On hearing the good news of the great success of the movie in the north, Dever went to Maruthamalai to perform a special pooja. It was in 1972 that Devar did the Tamil version using MGR and KR Vijaya.

Hathi Mere Saathi would ever be in the history of Malaysia. Circus shows were not performed in Malaysia for some years. And so when Hathi Mere Saathi was screened, it drew people from all races, including children and adults. That was the only movie that ran for 185 days at the Royal Theatre in the Penang Island. An average run of any best Hindi movie never exceeded two weeks in my country.

Manisekaran

NOV

5th January 2005, 07:21 PM

guys, please use this thread to gain knowledge, not to thrust your opinions.

manisegaran is an encyclopaedia in tamil movies and music; he can make mistakes of course, but pls be mindful of passing careless remarks. I have seen these going on for quite a while.

please add value to the discussions.

Music4Ever

5th January 2005, 07:50 PM

Mani AvargalE,

I read with great interest all your valuable contributions. My remarks were on some points in those posts that followed yours.
Please keep contributing your thoughts on TFM's most cherished MD.

And now no more distractions from my side.

M Madhanraj

5th January 2005, 09:39 PM

Mr Manisekaran

I am really sorry. I have seen this movie long time remember. Also I doubt whether I can make out whether it is IR's Village.

Also for your info. I have enjoyed one more 3 hours full program by IR when he came to PERIYAKULAM (Near Theni) and all the 3 hours he was standing and giving signs to the MUSICIANS. This was one of the best musical night I have enjoyed with IR in front. He was so dedicated and output was fantastic. All were Very Very melodious songs. KJ/Chitra/Susheela - all were there. KJ & Susheela - Singing KANNAN ORU KAI KUZHANTHAI, Chitra Started with 'YAETHOTHO YENNAM VALARTHANE' and IR Ended with 'RAJA RAAJAATHI RAAJAN INDHA RAJA'. PS was also singing 'KAALAI THENDRAL PAADI VARUM'. It was a great evening. I was just looking at IR's action for full 3 hours. I will give small sample. When 'VAZHAIYOSAI KALA KALAVENA' song was going on, in the interlude, 'KANNAE UN KAN PATTA KAAYAM', IR was just (little) raising his hands and All violin went UP. Just hear the song once again and go thru' my text. U will enjoy it.

U R always welcome to our area (theni District), if possible visit my native (Bodi) and U can visit our family members.

I have enjoyed 6 to 7 IR's Music Concerts and most of them In Madras.

Regards

M Madhanraj

vijayr

5th January 2005, 10:21 PM

I think this whole Hindi influence changing after IR is just a story wafted around by some sections of the media/audience. Like someone else pointed out a significant section of the urban audience continued to listen to Hindi songs even in the 80s. Composers like Laxmikant-Pyarelal, Bappi Lahiri etc. were invited to compose in TFM and they even managed a few hits like Uyire Unakaaga etc.
Tezaab, QSQT etc. were very popular in the late 80s. IR's influence was more in the rural segment of the audience due to the numerous village movies he composed music for and the folk flavor in his music.
And secondly, Both MSV and IR have drawn inspiration from a number of old HFM compositions. Senthamizh then mozhiyaaL's opening lines/sandham was from an old HFM song. So was "aayiraththil oruthi amma nee" by TMS from"ajeeb dastaan yeh hai" by Lata M and so on.
So I guess we can put this to rest.

vijayr

5th January 2005, 10:26 PM

Digression:

"I think MSV set the lyrics to tune most of the time. This way he was constrained or could give music only to the sandhams of the favored/limitied lyricists. Fortunately, there were talented lyricists who gave more meaningful words."

The "sandham" inherent in the lyrics can always be modified by the MD setting the tune. In many songs, MSV
completely changes and introduces new sandhams even for pre-written lyrics by virtue of how he splits,twists, elongates and shortens certain words of the lyrics while setting the tune. He was the best at that.

genesis

5th January 2005, 11:51 PM

Mani Sir,

"When Raja came to the industry, there was a craze to copy Hindi tunes into Tamil songs"

I think graghavan and music4ever are discussing about the above sentence from your posting. In my opinion there was craze for Hindi songs in Tamilnadu before IR's entry - not to copy. That craze died after IR's entry due to 2 reasons.

1) Quality of Hindi songs and movies declined in the 80s
2) IR was delivering better quality than HFM.

Generally there is a habit by Hardcore IR fans to degrade others (MDs, Directors, Lyricists, Singers) to praise IR. Unfortunately the sentence quoted above seem to fall in this category. We just do NOT want to hear something like that coming from a well-informed person like you.

Thank you.

Music4Ever

6th January 2005, 12:42 AM

At the risk of digressing further, I quickly offer the rationale that my post was motivated by Mani's desire to welcome diverse views. Were it not for that, I would have been still a silent reader.

Lest a few here misunderstand my intent, it is not my desire to tarnish a MD of IR's ilk and stature; his achievement is unparalleled in TFM history.

eden

6th January 2005, 01:26 AM

Most of us do NOT want to hear things that contradict certain opinions WE HOLD DEAR, even when they are true:-)

Sometimes, the truth may be so obvious and kasappu but even then we tend to minimize it / sugar coat it by some round-about explanations or focussing on insignificant stuff / half-truths etc (for e.g. claiming deteriorating quality which is not possible to objectively quantify in art forms and ever arguable or using skewed segmentation statistics like `chennai was still differnt -it was only a rural phenomena'...well movies were still produced by kodambakkam and not in madurai or pannaipuram..., weakness of competition, classical impurity, inspirations, exceptions etc.)

That Raja changed both the musical and listening trend wholesale in TN is an outright fact regardless of whether we want to hear that or not - though it may be arguable whether it was for the better or otherwise.

This can be easily seen from the level of importance given to MD in the TF industry from his entry onwards (please compare this with the level of importance given to MD's before in TFM or even today in say Malayalam, Telugu or Kannada industries - even the latest status in TF for most MD's is dismal with the possible exception of ARR; Similarly compare the extent one used to hear Hindi songs in say Bangalore or Hyderabad or Kochi v/s in Chennai)

(Likewise it is true that Rahman once again changed both the musical and listening trend in TN, for better or otherwise. MSV fans try to minimize the Raja trend and so are the Raja fans who try to minimize the Rahman trend.)

tezaab, QSQT were big hits like qurbani, disco dancer and certain other hindi stuff...even boneyM-ABBA-MJ-Madonna were a rage among college students in TN, but I didn't see anyone trying to identify himself with ONLY that music in the 80's thus totally alienating from TFM (which was definitely the snob prior to Raja, many didn't want to claim listening mgr-sivaji songs regardless of whether they enjoyed them or not).

Those alternate music sources (hindi/ western) became PART of the collections during Raja era - along with Raja's, TR's and even Shankar Ganesh's outputs (including his dubbed bappi-lahari stuff like in aboorva sahodarigal). However, to quote LP's uyire unakkaga album to say there was `still hindi influence' implying no big Raja trend (when posters were showing MD's pictures all around TN and recording centers were mushrooming with big Raja oil-paintings etc) is quite away from the reality, IMHO...

My humble request to such nay-sayers, please talk to a Keralite and say KJY was just a singer who delivered the creative output of someone else...or KSC only played to the tune of someone and check the response:-))) Don't risk injury if you're inside Kerala or in the gulf:-)) (These two are the poster stars in any music shop in Kerala along with LM...you can't see devarajan master or ouseppachan etc:-))

vijayr

6th January 2005, 01:53 AM

I was just claiming otherwise to points made earlier to the effect that IR drove HFM away from TN. I am saying it is not entirely true. Many sections of the college/urban audience (I have personally observed from several of my classmates) continued to listen to a lot of Hindi hits in the late 80s/early 90s. I am not sure how much percentage of the audience prior to 1976 claimed to listen to only HFM, but I guess the percentage was small (restricted mostly to cities)

senthilv.com

6th January 2005, 01:53 AM

eden:

:-)

Senthil

vijayr

6th January 2005, 01:59 AM

Anyways, most of the points listed above by all posters are just opinions and not facts. Unless otherwise we have some form of opinion poll done around 1978 or 80 as to how much percentage of the audience preferred TFM/HFM we cannot come to any hardcore conclusions. Every big MD starting from GR to ARR have changed the listening trend and have created a tremendous local impact, this is not just limited to IR. When ARR appeared in 1992, all the craze for weak albums like Aashiqui or Saajan died down amongst the urban audience in Chennai, even if temporarily. So even ARR can be credited to a certain extent for driving out HFM's influence :-)

eden

6th January 2005, 02:06 AM

It's a myth again to equate Raja's success with success of folk music.

He did have his share of great folk hits, including those for BR, no doubt. However, his music for most movies for the mega stars during his peak -Rajini & Kamal- and lesser known stars like Mohan, pratap pothen, karthik etc always had more westernised scores than any folk. Though Raja's folk sounds brought him into reckoning and made people look at him initially, it was his capability to handle western / carnatic music with competence / skills to fuse them and present them in an attractive way packaged with mesmerising instrumentals that brought him wide recognition and appreciation, IMHO. That way he set more trends than one - not just a machAnappatheengaLA trend but also a nAnE nAnA trend, a paruvamE pudhiya pAdal trend, pon mAlaippozhudhu / pani vizhum malar vanam / andhi mazhai trend, iLaya nilA / poongAtru pudhidhAnadhu / rOjAppoo Adi vandhadhu trend etc.

Dismissing Raja as a folk trend setter is like telling Bill Gates is just a dos guy...

eden

6th January 2005, 02:46 AM

"I am not sure how much percentage of the audience prior to 1976 claimed to listen to only HFM, but I guess the percentage was small (restricted mostly to cities)"

vijay, I lived in a hamlet during that period, with a population of <500...there were only 4 households in that place who could own a record player or a spool-cassette player and they had no Tamil songs:-(

I observed similar trend with many of my relatives who lived in towns like virudhunagar, pollachi, palladam, tiruppur, palayankottai, dindigul, thanjavur, trichy & madurai who owned music systems having only bobby , yadon ki bharat & the like - strictly no tamil songs. Why, even some of the radio listeners used to only tune to `radio australia' to listen to `international top 10' and stuff like that...(similar observation was also made by many of my college mates with the IR phenomena in the early 80's as we used to discuss this a lot - hours and hours analysing...)

Hence prior to '76, it was definitely not a big-city or college-hostel ONLY phenomena IMHO.

I do not discount the impact by ARR as well. This you can see from my post. I agree it's a mistake usually done by HCIRF's and I'm not one. I like and admire IR's music but hate to idolize / roll-model him or any cine person.
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IR's wave (tsunami?) included some strong community influence as well. Some more pointers to cultural influence post-IR in TN by TFM (don't dismiss them as a technology thing as technology is common for TN, Kerala, AP, Karnataka and other parts of India as well):

-tea shop music (not a big phenomena elsewhere like TN)

-bus music (definitely a TN thing...In Kerala, the only routes having bus music are those connecting TN, elsewhere considered nuisance...even while travelling in these routes keralites from other parts of state used to be grumpy...I traveled in Karnataka and AP too quite a lot in bus but no music. Don't dismiss this as a govt. transport thing, in TN even govt. buses had to have cassette players, all these point to the influence / force of TFM)

vijayr

6th January 2005, 02:51 AM

I dont think anyone claimed that Raja is just a folk trend setter. A sizeable portion of the urban audience continued to listen to HFM even after IR's entry, in spite of his westernized scores. Many Hindi movies ran well in Chennai and elsewhere and their music was quite popular too. I am not sure of the comparison in percentages of audience claiming to listen to ONLY HFM before and after 1976. Most of whats stated here(including mine) is just hearsay without backed by concrete numbers or facts. Myth is stating that Raja stopped HFM influence/listening completely. I have seen a few people here commenting along those lines and thats untrue. In their initial years MSV/IR/ARR made the local audience listen to them in complete attention. As years went by and their music became more familiar(or monotonous) interest shifted a little more to HFM. It happened to MSV in the late 70s, happened to IR in the late 80s/early 90s and right now Rahman himself has moved to more HFM.

eden

6th January 2005, 03:12 AM

"Myth is stating that Raja stopped HFM influence/listening completely"

-I agree with you vijay. However, the fact is people stopped telling `I only listen to RDB, abba, boneyM etc....who'll listen to tamil music'.

This is my first hand experience and not hearsay:-)

eden

6th January 2005, 03:25 AM

Another trend change by IR:
One of the trends in the pre-IR era was associating songs with MGR-Shivaji by the public by and large, even associating the songs with their political ideologies...not so much with MSV-KVM (I myself had to remove so many songs from my MSV list after coming to DF as they belonged to KVM, V Kumar and many others), although Kavingar KD had a better recognition than any of the MD's prior to IR and so were TMS/PS...

There's no such ownership question in the post-IR era as the music shop / recording center will have IR's / ARR's picture and people started listening / buying music on its own merit / MD's performance and not because it was a MGR song. (Sad to say, this is slowly being reversed by mediocre MD's now...)

vijayr

6th January 2005, 05:05 AM

"There's no such ownership question in the post-IR era as the music shop / recording center will have IR's / ARR's picture and people started listening / buying music on its own merit / MD's performance and not because it was a MGR song. (Sad to say, this is slowly being reversed by mediocre MD's now...)"

That was more due to the "hype" era which started in the 80s and took newer meaning in the 90s. Things were different in the earlier days. MDs were unassuming, never insisted that their face be splashed in posters or cutouts be made for them. They quietly went about doing their job. Its unfortunate that they didnt get the credit they deserved while the actors stole all the fame. Even in IR's era there were Kamal and Rajni hits and so on, but the MDs got more attention.

Manisekaran

6th January 2005, 06:23 AM

Dear Friends,

The Hindi song influence matter seems to have stirred the hornet's nest. All seem to hold strong views.

Taste is something personal. I listen to all songs from all MDs. I was not a serious listener of IR's songs untill I was called upon to produce a show on his songs. in a span of three months, i read widely and listed some 150 songs of IR in which I was able to fathom the depth of his intellegence in music. Then I discovered him to be the greatest genius in recent times. But studying all these MDs had shown that they are great in their own ways. When one is praised it may appear or perceived that another is being supressed. It is a relative situation.

My worst nightmare has come true. In my own observation, the most sensitive threads had always been on Ilayaraja. I was reluctant until some IR fan asked me to contribute on him. When I started I did express that this should not turn out to be a clash between the factions. Now I am seeing the faction is already well placed in this thread. When I started on KVM, there was a well culculated move to distract me. Now I see this happening here. I express my views freely. Whats harm in that? Readers can agree or disagree with me. But to persecute and slaughter on my views over and over is very unfair.

I dont want to be seen as the cause of split. I thought of giving most of the 150 songs with some message. I feel I am not allowed to do that.We all have some profession to concentrate on. I have mine. Posting here is just to share some knowledge I have. I had equally gained.

This is a well thought of decision. Certainly not an emotional outburst.

So, dear readers, thank you for being with me, and most importantly correcting me.

Dear TFM Teaam, thank you for sparing some space for me.
Let the winners be the winners. I admit I have lost, and lost miserably. Now that I have gone , you may all continue from where I have stopped. I am going to write the entire articel in my local papers.

Sorry, it is a painful decision.

Manisekaran

Rangarajan nambi

28th August 2012, 04:08 PM