Thiruvasakam- porulh vilhakkam thevai

[Ilavenil]

yaravathu thiruvasakam yenakku vilhakki solla mudiyuma? G.U. Pope udaiya mozhipeyarcchi yenakku sila idangalhi puriyavilai. Naannae purinthukolhum alhavirgu yenakku tamizh gnanam pothavillai.

--Nandri.

[Yudhajit]

Vanakkam Ilavenil,

I will try to help you. Could you please let me know what exactly do you want in thriuvachagam.

natpudan,
Yudhajit

[Ilavenil]

Vanakkam Ilavenil,

I will try to help you. Could you please let me know what exactly do you want in thriuvachagam.

natpudan,
Yudhajit

Thanks for the reply. Since everybody says that "Thiruvasagathukku urugar oruvasagathukku urugar", I didn't want to miss out what people who had read it, enjoyed. I wanted understand the literary meaning of Thiruvasakam. I do understand it is very difficult to explain from the first line to the last. I was wondering if you can help me with explaing what certain words mean? I will go ahead and read up about it and make a list of words I don't understand and post it here, few words at a time. Thanks again and really appreciate your help.

[Idiappam]

Perhaps you should read the life story of Manickavasagar. YOu would then understand why he says 'certain' things in his songs!

[Ilavenil]

Perhaps you should read the life story of Manickavasagar. YOu would then understand why he says 'certain' things in his songs!

Hi Idiappam,

I did read about his story from a web-site. It was just one page. Moreover, Manikavasagar talks lots of things other than his own story. I also was going through some of the nayanars' life story. Nirayasolirikirar, puriyathan mataen engirathu.

[geno]

Ilavenil,

vaNakkam! :)

"Idiappam" avargaL - ingu pala ANdukaLAka thodarnthu - ezuthi varukiRaar. :D

nalla thamizhaRingar :D pazaiya naNbarkaLukku avarudaiya perumaikaL niRaiyavE theriyum!

niRaiya kaRRuk koLLalAm avaridam! :D

avarai, punai peyarai vaithu - edai pOdAtheerkaL! :)

idiAppathukku - adiyum, mudiyum kidaiyAthallavA? athu pOla - aLLa aLLa kuRaiyAtha - "thamizh amuthasurabi" Idiappam! :)

[Ilavenil]

vivaram theriamal, avaraipatri villaiyattaga pesivitaen, Geno.

Idiappam avargallae, naan kuriyathil pizhai irunthal, porutharullum.

[Ilavenil]

#"Kogazhi" yengae ullathu?

#"Annipaan" (annipaan thall vazhalga) apadiyendral yenna?

#"pingnagan" Sivan udaia peyara? Antha peyarukku porul unda?

#" vimala" yendru Sivanai allaipathen?

# nirangal or ainthudaiyai, vinorgal yetha
marainthirunthai yemperuman valvinaiyaen thanai----- porul villangavillai.

Thanks.

[Yudhajit]

#"Kogazhi" yengae ullathu?
$ "Kogazhi" - Thiruvavaduthurai has many names one of them is kogazhi.
#"Annipaan" (annipaan thall vazhalga) apadiyendral yenna?
$ "Annipaan" - Annithal, arugil varudhal. Annipaan, arugil varuvapavan.

#"pingnagan" Sivan udaia peyara? Antha peyarukku porul unda?
$ "Pingnagan" - Peeli aninthavan,

#" vimala" yendru Sivanai allaipathen?
$ "Vimala" - Malam endral masu, vimala endral masatravane

# nirangal or ainthudaiyai, vinorgal yetha
marainthirunthai yemperuman valvinaiyaen thanai----- porul villangavillai.
$ Neengal ulagathai kanbathu 5 pulangalal than. Pirapennum pini neeka kadinamana muraigalal allamal, karumbu chatrinil thenkalanthu, appodu karantha polkalanthal evvalavu innikkumo, avvalavu innimaiyaga yelithaga, mathil thondri pasa malam arruppan, esan.

Dear Idiappam and others, adiyen chinna payyan, Phizhai irrundal thiruthavaum. nandri


Thanks.

[Ilavenil]

#"Kogazhi" yengae ullathu?
$ "Kogazhi" - Thiruvavaduthurai has many names one of them is kogazhi.
#"Annipaan" (annipaan thall vazhalga) apadiyendral yenna?
$ "Annipaan" - Annithal, arugil varudhal. Annipaan, arugil varuvapavan.

#"pingnagan" Sivan udaia peyara? Antha peyarukku porul unda?
$ "Pingnagan" - Peeli aninthavan,

#" vimala" yendru Sivanai allaipathen?
$ "Vimala" - Malam endral masu, vimala endral masatravane

# nirangal or ainthudaiyai, vinorgal yetha
marainthirunthai yemperuman valvinaiyaen thanai----- porul villangavillai.
$ Neengal ulagathai kanbathu 5 pulangalal than. Pirapennum pini neeka kadinamana muraigalal allamal, karumbu chatrinil thenkalanthu, appodu karantha polkalanthal evvalavu innikkumo, avvalavu innimaiyaga yelithaga, mathil thondri pasa malam arruppan, esan.

Dear Idiappam and others, adiyen chinna payyan, Phizhai irrundal thiruthavaum. nandri


Thanks.

Awesome! Unmaiyilae ivalavu thelivaga villakuveergal yendru naan ninaikkavillai. Thanks. Apadiye poividatheergal, innum pala venavoda, vAra iruthiyil thirumbuven. Kelvi ketpatharga naa thiruvasakathai nunukkamaga padikka avagasam thevai.

Thangal thamizh yengu payindreengall? Thamizhil merpadippu padithathu undo? Thanks, once again. :clap:

[Ilavenil]

# 9 vayil kudil -yena yethai kuripidugirar?
# nalathan illatha siriyorkku nalgi
nilam thanmel vanthu arulli neellkazhalkal katti--- puriyavillai.
#orathar ullathu-- porul?
# kalla pulakurambai--porul?

#maramai vayagathin veverae vanthuarivam
therene thetra thellivae yen sinthaniyum
ootrana unar amthae udaiyanae
vetru vigara udambin ullkidappa
aatraen yem aiya arane o yendru yendru--- puriyave illilai.

[Ilavenil]

#panjapalliyum--- iyumpulanum ondra? vera porull unda?
#kratha vedam= woodman yengirar Pope, yen?
#kevedavar?
#mavettu agiya agamam vangi- puriyavillai
#santhamputhuri nadantha kathai yenna?
#povanam-yena yentha orai kuripidkirar?

[Yudhajit]

# 9 vayil kudil -yena yethai kuripidugirar?
$ Aram pavam ennum arung kayetral katti pulu alukku moodi,
malam serum onpathu vaill.. enndral nammudaya udambil ulla 9 thullaigal.

# nalathan illatha siriyorkku nalgi
nilam thanmel vanthu arulli neellkazhalkal katti--- puriyavillai.
$ maanikka vasaga peruman, thannai sirumai padhuthi kolgirar, nalanthan illatha siriyerkku endru. nilam - bhoomi, vanthu arulli - namakku intha bhoomil bandlimitted sense than ullathu, intha bhoomill unarathakka vannam vanthu arul seythu. kalalgal - (thiruv)adigal.


#maramai vayagathin veverae vanthuarivam ..
$ enna arumaiyana padal aaga aaga Ilavenil i have to thank you for giving me this opportunity..
mattramam vayagathin - palaveru mattru karthukaludaya aringargal aaivu seidu, aaivin mudiva saaraga therum
thettrane.. aaga, parungal enna arumaiyana varthai.. thetram endral theory. thettran - he is the theory, thettra thelive. ootrana unnarkku amuthe - en ullathil oorum, unnutharkku ariya amudai pondravane. ennal entha udalil irrukka mudiyavillai, iyane..

[Ilavenil]

yudhajit,

neengal yenudaia matra kalvikkum vidai kurungal puragu naan adutha kelvikku pogiraen. kelvikettpathu yellithalava? yen tamizh asiriai arugil ilatha kuraiai neekkiyatharkku nandri.

[madhu]

Hi ilavenil !
enakku thiruvasagam theriyala.. but.. unga kelviyai padikkumpodhu thonRiyadhai ezhudhugiREn...


kratha vedam= woodman yengirar Pope, yen?

"kratham" enRaal "hunter" enRudhan poruL. adhanaal krAtha vedam enbadhu arjunanukkaga vedanin uruvathil vanthadhai kuRippiduvadhaga irukkalam..

#povanam-yena yentha orai kuripidkirar?

maduraikku pakkathil irukkum "thiruppUvanam" enRa ooraga irukkalam.. En enRal adharku arugilthan manickavasagarukkaga nariyai pariyakkiya "narikkudi" enRa oor irukkiradhu..

"thirupoovanam" oru periya siva sthalam. ange thirunavukkarasaril Thevarap padal petra kovil irukkiradhu.

[Ilavenil]

Hi ilavenil !
enakku thiruvasagam theriyala.. but.. unga kelviyai padikkumpodhu thonRiyadhai ezhudhugiREn...


kratha vedam= woodman yengirar Pope, yen?

"kratham" enRaal "hunter" enRudhan poruL. adhanaal krAtha vedam enbadhu arjunanukkaga vedanin uruvathil vanthadhai kuRippiduvadhaga irukkalam..

#povanam-yena yentha orai kuripidkirar?

maduraikku pakkathil irukkum "thiruppUvanam" enRa ooraga irukkalam.. En enRal adharku arugilthan manickavasagarukkaga nariyai pariyakkiya "narikkudi" enRa oor irukkiradhu..

"thirupoovanam" oru periya siva sthalam. ange thirunavukkarasaril Thevarap padal petra kovil irukkiradhu.

Thanks Madhu.

Arjunarukku yevvagail Sivapiran uthavinar yendru theriyuma ungallukku? Therinthal kurungall please.

[madhu]

Hi ilavenil !

mahabharathathil... pOril thevaipadum enRa kAraNathiRkAga sivaperumAnin "pAsupadham" enRa asthirathi peRa arjunan thavam purinthan. Appodhu sivaperumanum, deviyum vedanum avan maniviyum pola vedam tharithu vandhanar. oru panRiyai karaNamAga koNdu sivapiran arjunanudan saNdai ittu pin varam thanthAr.

idhu kaLidasanin "krAtharjuneeyam" enRa noolil kooRappadugiradhu.

intha thala puRANam keralathil uLLa "kAdampuzha" enRa oorukku sollpapdugirathu.."Kaadu+ambu+puzha"

[Ilavenil]

Hi ilavenil !

mahabharathathil... pOril thevaipadum enRa kAraNathiRkAga sivaperumAnin "pAsupadham" enRa asthirathi peRa arjunan thavam purinthan. Appodhu sivaperumanum, deviyum vedanum avan maniviyum pola vedam tharithu vandhanar. oru panRiyai karaNamAga koNdu sivapiran arjunanudan saNdai ittu pin varam thanthAr.

idhu kaLidasanin "krAtharjuneeyam" enRa noolil kooRappadugiradhu.

intha thala puRANam keralathil uLLa "kAdampuzha" enRa oorukku sollpapdugirathu.."Kaadu+ambu+puzha"

Mahabarathathil, Sivapiranai patri athigam sollappadavillai yengira kuraitheerkka inthakathai uthavum pollum.

Thanks Madhu.

[Ilavenil]

Thiruvasagar varisaiyaga pala oorgallai patri kurippidigirar. Naan avatrai varisaipadutthiullaen. Antha idathapatri arinthavargall, villakkam tharavum. naanum mudinthavar thediparkiren.

Vadavoor
thiruaavoor
karuaavoor
pavanasam
Venkadu-- Thiruverkada?
oori
pandoor
thevoor
idaimaruthu
thiruvaanji
maruthoor
kamboor
engoi
thuruthi
iyaru
thrupanai
kallumalam
kallukundru
kutralam
mahendra verpan- mahedragiri?

[Ilavenil]

Thiruvasagar varisaiyaga pala oorgallai patri kurippidigirar. Naan avatrai varisaipadutthiullaen. Antha idathapatri arinthavargall, villakkam tharavum. naanum mudinthavar thediparkiren.

Vadavoor
thiruaavoor
karuaavoor
pavanasam
Venkadu-- Thiruverkada?
oori
pandoor
thevoor
idaimaruthu
thiruvaanji
maruthoor
kamboor
engoi
thuruthi
iyaru
thrupanai
kallumalam
kallukundru
kutralam
mahendra verpan- mahedragiri?

Thiruvaavoor-- Birth place of Manikavasagar

karuavor-- Lord Velladaiyappar was worshipped by vishnu in the form of white rishabam

Pavanasam-- Agasthiyar had given 9 flowers to Uromacha munivar. He had asked him to throw it in thambiraparani and worship the spots where the flowers go. One such spot is pavanasam, one of navakailayam (9 kailasam) in Thirunelveli.

Thiruvengadu-- Lord Venkadar. Sage Swetaketu was saved from the cluthes of death.

Idaimaruthur-- Lord Maruadandavar-- Maruda maram (tree) is in plenty here. illness due to evil spirits are said to be cured here.

Thiruvanjikalam-- Lord vanchikuleswarar. place is in Kerala. One of the 63 nayanmar, the king, Cheran perumal, is from here.
kadampoor-- Lord Amritaghateswarar. indran worshiped Sivan to get Amirtham here.

Thiruveengoimalai-- Lord Maragathachaleswara was worshiped by Agasthir in the form of fly to by pass the crowd.

Thirupanai-- Lord Azhayagiyanathar. Sundramorthy
nayanar saw Lord's cosmic dance here.

Kutralam-- To balance the crowd in Kailasam in North during Siva Parvathi's wedding, Agasthiyar went to kutralam in South and visualized the wedding here.

Mahendragiri-- It is in orissa.

[Yudhajit]

Hi ilavenil,

I remember Mahendragiri is near kanyakumari.
Iyaru - Thiruvaiyarau - 5 rivers. Swami Iyarappar. Sri Thiyagraja swami also was also there.

So ilavenil, i beleive you must have finished "Shiva puranam" of Thiru Maanikavasagar, so shall i request you to share with us, what have you learnt. We will discuss, "Karkka Kasadara" and it will be useful for other members also.

anbudan,
Yudhajit

[madhu]

Thiruvasagar varisaiyaga pala oorgallai patri kurippidigirar. Naan avatrai varisaipadutthiullaen. Antha idathapatri arinthavargall, villakkam tharavum. naanum mudinthavar thediparkiren.

Vadavoor
thiruaavoor

Thiruvaavoor-- Near madurai

Pavanasam-- near courtallam

Thiruvengadu-- between sirkazhi and poompukar

Idaimaruthur-- thiruvidaimaruthur --- ( it is in between thalai marudhur (Srisailam) and thirupudaimaruthur in tirunelveli dt.).. so idai maruthur ...

Thiruvanjikalam-- in Kerala, of course.

Thiruveengoimalai-- near Kulithalai on the banks of the cauvery

iyaru - must be thiruvaiyaru only...

[Ilavenil]

http://forumhub.lunarpages.com/hub/viewtopic.php?p=75015&highlight=#75015

Mahendragiri, Nagercoil to Thirunelvelli route-il irrukirathu. Aanal, Mahabarathathil ulla Mahendragiri, athuthana yendru theriyavillai. Naan Mahendragirikku school trip poi irrukiraen (naan Kumarimavattathai sernthavall).

Angae ISRO ullathu: "A sub-scale cryogenic engine test-stand" seiya muyarchithuvarugirargal.

Matrapadi, Mahengragiriyin mukkiyathuvam theriyavillai. Aanal, Mahedragiri yendru Orissavil oru Sivasthalam ullathu. Athai patrithan than puraanathil kuripitapattulatham.

This is what I read about Mahendragiri in Orissa: "Amidst rich scenic beauty of the evergreen forests, Mahendragiri, 5,000 feet high, stands in its unrivalled glory in the Parlakhemundi subdivision of the district of Gajapati, Orissa. The hill is associated with mythological stories from the Ramayana and the Mahabharata. It finds mention in the works of poets Kalidas and Radhanath Ray. The rivulet Mahendra Tanaya flows down the hill with her usual trickling note. Archaeological remains at Mahendragiri make an interesting study for the scholars. Sivaratri is the main festival here which draws a large crowd'.

[Ilavenil]

Hi ilavenil,

I remember Mahendragiri is near kanyakumari.
Iyaru - Thiruvaiyarau - 5 rivers. Swami Iyarappar. Sri Thiyagraja swami also was also there.

So ilavenil, i beleive you must have finished "Shiva puranam" of Thiru Maanikavasagar, so shall i request you to share with us, what have you learnt. We will discuss, "Karkka Kasadara" and it will be useful for other members also.

anbudan,
Yudhajit

Yenna neegal, kindalseigirirgalla? Naa innum pathi kinaru kuda thandalla. Athuvum, neengallum Madhu-vumthan yenakku "konar urai". Yenapoi villakkasolgireergallae? Thamizh vaguppu mudivatharkku mun thervu yezhutha sonal yeppadi? Aanal, neengal sonamathiri, naan muzhuvathaiyum padithu porull therinthukondapin, nicchayamaga kalanthuraiyadalam.

[Ilavenil]

Idaimaruthur-- thiruvidaimaruthur --- ( it is in between thalai marudhur (Srisailam) and thirupudaimaruthur in tirunelveli dt.).. so idai maruthur .

Samasgrithathil "Madhyarjuna Kshetram" yendru thiru-idai-maruthur" kuripidapattullatham.

[Yudhajit]

Ilavenil, sivapuraanam motham 95 vari padal thane, first we will understand sivapuraanam thoroughly, i tell you why, Shiva peruman himself came here and asked maanika vasaga peruman to tell whatever he had sung sofar, then shiva peruman wrote everything and signatured as "Maanikkavasagan solla Azhagiya thiruchitrambalamudayan ezhudiyadhu - Thiruchitrambalamudyan". So we have to analyse and enjoy -get the reall meaning of it. Adhu tamil inbam. i want to tell you something

Yesterday i happened to read something about "Kamba ramayanam", in that Kaikeyi is telling Rama to go to forest. The same day morning Dasharatha told Rama is going to be the king, Rama is not very happy or sad about this, again kaikeyi is asking him to go to forest, now also he is not very happy or sad about this. He is calm, ramanudaya mugam "Chithiralarntha thamarai pola" irunthadam,
why kamba is saying chithiralarntha thamarnnu solararnnu parthal, thamarai azhaga irrukkum, anal vadi vedum. Chithirathil varintha thamari eppodhum malarnthu azhaga thondrum. Enna arumaiyana uvamai, why i am saying this is we have analyse sivapuraanam and feel the real joy, what do you people say Ilavenil and Madhu ?

[Ilavenil]

Hi Yudhajit,

Naan http://www.shaivam.org/siddhanta/thivacha.html

web-site-il irunthuthan thiruvasakkam patri therinthu kondaen. Putthagavadivil parthathillai. Agaiyal, yenakku athu yethai varugall yen theriyathu. Antha web-site-ilirunthu print paninapo, 90+90 pakkangal vanthana.Naan thiruvasakam muzhuvathu 180 pakkangal yendru ninaithirunthen. Neengal solluvathai konjam villakka mudiyum?

It was like this in PDF format:
# Part1 (From sivapurANam to koththumbi)
# Part2 (From theLLenam to achcho padhikam)

Partheergalla, yethanai varigall undo yendrukoda yenakku theriyathu, kattrukkollum aarvam mattum than yenakku undo, yennai poi villakka soneergallae?[/url]

[Ilavenil]

Yudhajit,

Naan mellum thodargindren yenudaiya venakkalai.

sukkamodu thulathu soorai maruthathu---?

yeriyathi valliyin kotka peyarkkum kuzhakan muzhuvathu---?

keedam puraiyum kizhavon naalthorum---?

viripozhil---?

Sivapuranam muthalil iruthu meendu orumurai kalanthurayada vendumendral, athaiyum seiyallam.

[Yudhajit]

If you take it in the right sense, i would like to tell you something,
First you started asking something in "Sivapuranam", then after that you asked in "Keerthi thiru agaval" after that you are asking in "Thiru anda paguthi".. All are in thiruvachagam only. But what i suggest you is, first we will discuss all 95 padal in "Siva puranam". Thiruvasagam has many "marai porul" - marai - vedam enavum eduthukkolalam, marai -marainthulla porul enavum eduthukkolalam.

So you want to learn this, i will also join in this learning. we all discuss and find out the reall meaning and share the pleasure of understanding.

thiruchitrambalam.

[viggop]

I think Thiruvengadu has another name called Vedaranyam(aranya-forest in Sanskrit)

P.N.Kumar who used to post in this hub some years ago was also very knowledgeable in Holy books on Lord Shiva(Both Tamil and Sanskrit)

[viggop]

Arjuna tree is the tree of "Marutha" and the place where Lord Shiva appears as a Linga under this "Martha" tree is called Arjuna Kshetra.

The Thiruvadaimaruthur in Thanjavur which Sri Adi Sankara visited is called Madhyaarjunam. Srisaila, in Andhra, is called Mallikarjunam as Lord Shiva resides under a Marutha Tree which has also got Jasmine creepers on this tree. Sri Adi Sankara visited this tree and became ecstastic on seeing the linga at the foot of this tree. His happiness flowed like the waves of a flood and became a sloka called Sivanandalahiri.

[Yudhajit]

I guess Vedaranyam - thiru marai kadu

[madhu]

Hi!

ThiruveNkadu is "Swetharanyam".. it is near Sirkazhi.

[Ilavenil]

Siva puranam


namachchivAya vAzga nAdhan thAL vAzga
imaippozudhum en nenychil nINgAdhAn thAL vAzga
kOgazi ANDa kurumaNidhan thAL vAzga
Agamam AgininRu aNNippAn thAL vAzga
Egan anEgan iRaivan aDivAzga


naan purinthu kondathu=

Na-ma-chi-va-ya vazhga. Sivaperumanudaiya adigal/ kalgall vazhga
Kogazi (thiruvaduthurai) yedru oorinai anda manipondra guruvin adigal/ kalgall vazhga
sivanae agamam-aginindru namai arugil eerpavannudai adigall vazhga

(Yudhajit, neegal arugal varupavan yendru kurineergal, Pope, arugil eerpavan= Lord draws you, yendru solugiraar)

oruvanagi, oruvurume illathavanumana iraivanadi vazga.

-----Yen arivukku yettiyathai solli irrukidren, neengallum ungalludaiya villakkathai sollungall.

[madhu]

Hi iLavEnil !

Egan anEgan iRaivan aDivAzga

"anEgan" enRa vArthaikku onrum illAdhavanai enbadhu poruLA ?

alladhu "onRAi palavAi" enbadhu pOla ... vadamozhiyil "saguNa brahmam" engirArgaLE.. adhu pOla poruL koLLalAmA ?

[Ilavenil]

Hi iLavEnil !

Egan anEgan iRaivan aDivAzga

"anEgan" enRa vArthaikku onrum illAdhavanai enbadhu poruLA ?

alladhu "onRAi palavAi" enbadhu pOla ... vadamozhiyil "saguNa brahmam" engirArgaLE.. adhu pOla poruL koLLalAmA ?

Hi Madhu,

Naan G.U. Pope-udaiya mozhipeyarpai vaiththu thAn anEganukku apadi purull kondaen. Neengal kuriullathu yenakku puriyavillai, vadamozhiai pattri nEngal kurippitulathai villaki kurungallaen. NAnum katrukkollvaen.

[madhu]

Hi !

thamizhil kooda "anegam" enral, onrukku mERpattadhu enrudhan poruL kollvuvom. onrum illathadhu enru kooRuvadhillai.. adhanal...
"Egan Anegan" enbadhaRku... Adi sankararin Advaitha muRaipadi..
oru parabrahmam Aga iruppadhAl Egan enRum, pallayiram kOdi uyirinangaLin uLLe iruppadhAl anEgan enRum azhaikkapadum iRaivanain adigaLai potRuvadhAga koLLalAm allavA ?

[Ilavenil]

Aha! nichayamaha neengal koorum purull villakkam sariyagathan irrukkum. nEngal soluvathupollae yeduthokollalam.

[Yudhajit]

namachchivAya vAzga nAdhan thAL vAzga
imaippozudhum en nenychil nINgAdhAn thAL vAzga
kOgazi ANDa kurumaNidhan thAL vAzga
Agamam AgininRu aNNippAn thAL vAzga
Egan anEgan iRaivan aDivAzga

Nice with your explanation ilavenil and madhu.

" vanakkamudan arambikirar, sivaya vazhaga ena arrambikkavillai".
Just thought of imaipozhudhum neengamal irrupadhu, very tough but focusing all your thoughts on siva.

Absolutely no problem with first two lines. Here comes my doubt,

but, Kogazi aanda endru solvathu yen ???
Siva has no tense.. only we have, he is still ruling then why maanikkavasaga peruman, aanda endru solgirar ?

Aagam aginindru endru than solgirar, nindra endru sollavillai.
aagamam aginindru annippan. aagamam enpathu enna ??,
did he mean to say, if we read/follow aagamam, you will understand siva and that means siva comes near to you ???

Egan anEgan iRaivan aDivAzga - Egan there is no other equal or above to him. Anegan - avene than annaithu uyirkalum - madhu's explanation was good for this line.

so let us try to find this

Kogazi aanda endru solvathu yen ???
aagamam aginindru annippan

Madhu and Ilavenil now the stages is your's

Thiruchittrambalam

[Ilavenil]

Yennadhu ithu, aagamam patri naanum Madhuvum post panninathu missing? Was I day dreaming?

[madhu]

Hi Ilavenil !

I think there is some problem in the server.. Almost all my postings of yesterday is gone....
:cry: :cry:

[Yudhajit]

hi madu and ilavenil,

Could you please repost it !

[Ilavenil]

vera onnum illae Yudhajit, NaangaL

" Agamam Agin^inRu aNNippAn thAL vAzga"

patri pesi kundu irrunthom. Naan sonna viLakkam, SivapirAnae agamamgirar. Avarai nEkinal agamamthukku poruL illae, yendraen. Atharkku Madhu, ithae karuththai, Adi Shankararum kuri ullaithai sutti kAttinar.

Mudhu sonna varigaL ninaivillae, poruL: sagutharunathiL kadavuL ninaivu alathu agamam namakku uthavathu yendru.

NEngal sonathu pola, yen yellam kadantha kAlathil kuripidapattulathuyendra arayavendum yendren.

[madhu]

mannikkavum..

neraminmai karaNamaga viLakkamaga ezhudha mudiyavillai..

Nan sonnadhu..

"Govindhanai bajippai mooda nenjame.. Avi pOgum nEram.. avan aruLE kAkkum.. Agama sUthirangaL aNuvum udhavAdhE".. enRA Bhaja Govindhathin varigaLthAn..

[Gopi]

Yellorukkum Vanakkam

I am a new member. I read through the whole thread of this conversation.

I have read a slightly different interpretation for the phrase 'kokazhi Anda...' in some book.

The interpretation goes like this:

"Kokazhiyil yezundaruli yennai (author) Aandu konda".

[Yudhajit]

Bhaja govindaM bhaja govindaM
govindaM bhaja muuDhamate .
saMpraapte sannihite kaale
nahi nahi rakshati DukR^iJN karaNe


DukR^iJN karaNe - i guess it doesn't mean aagamam, madhu could you please explain in detail so that we could understand better.

What is aagamam - i have explored some explanation we will find in detail

. 'Aagamam' is a Sanskrit word for which the corresponding word in literary Tamil, is “tonRiyatu” meaning: 'was revealed' to the ancient Seers when they were in deep meditation/communion with God. The Aagamas prescribe in detail the selection of places and sites for locating a temple, the measurements such as length, width, height etc., for the construction of the temple and the kriyas or the rituals of worship to be performed for each deity.

From Saint Tirumoolar's Tirumantiram we have the following nine basic Siva-Aagamas: KaaraNam, Kaamikam, Veeram, Vuyar-chintam, VaatuLam, viyAmaLam, Kaaloththaram, suppiram, Makutam. In the same manner, there are Aagamas for the worship of Tirumaal (Vishnu) and Shakti (Sri or Lakshmi). Aagamas have four broad subject-headings: Kriyai, Sariyai, Jnaanam and Yoga. Generally, however, Aagamas give instructions mainly on the construction of temples and the rituals to be followed in the worship of the deity. The Aagamas stress on the Bhakti-marga - or the love for a personal God through devotion and total surrender. The Shaivite method of worship follows the instructions laid down in the Aagamas; the worshipers commonly known as Hindu follows the instructions of the Vedas.

Thiruchitrambalam

Note:
i will not be available for next 4 days here. going for "Panguni Uttaram"

[viggop]

Bhaja govindaM bhaja govindaM
govindaM bhaja muuDhamate .
saMpraapte sannihite kaale
nahi nahi rakshati DukR^iJN karaNe

DukR^iJN karaNe means grammar

The story goes like this :-
Adi Sankara was travelling somewhere when he saw a old man involving himself in studying Sankrit Grammar.Adi Sankara sang this song immediately.
What it means is that, when you are about to die,knowledge of Sanskrit grammar is not going to help you.
You will be born into this world again and again according to your karmas.The only knowledge which will help you avoid this karmic cycle is the knowledge of God.You have to realize "Shivam" or "Brahmam" and once you realize it, you will escape the cycle of birth and death.

[viggop]

Adi Sankara's "Advaita" deals with "Gnana Marga" way of realizing God.

[Ilavenil]

Yennapa, aLukkaL, karuthai azhagaga potti pottu solugireergaL. Naan oru gnana soniyam poL yenakae thondra Arambithuvitathu.
UngaLukaellam samaskrithamkuda therinthu irukirathu, yenakku tamizhae sariyaga theriyavilai :cry:

Kogazhi Anda- Now it makes sense.

[madhu]

Ilavenil !

neengaLE ippadi sonnal nAn enna solluvEn ?
en "avatar" madhiri nan oru "pacha puLLa"-dhan.
innum therindhu koLLa vENdiyadhu ekkachakkamA irukku..

ellorum solluvadhai kettu koNdirundhAle niRaiya vishayam kidaikkum..

enRum anbudan

[viggop]

Ilavenil
I do not know Sanskrit. I just read the translation from some site and posted it here.
Discoussions like this will enhance the knowledge of everyone present here.

[Ilavenil]

vEgam keDuththANDa vEn^dhan aDivelga
piRappaRukkum pinynyagandhan peygazalgaL velga
puRan^dhArkkuch chEyOn than pUN^gazalgaL velga
karaN^guvivAr uLmagizum kOngazalgaL velga
chiramguvivAr ON^guvikkum chIrOn kazal velga 10


This is the next stanza. NeengaL yeLorum viLakkam sonapiragu nAn soLgiraen :wink:

[Yudhajit]

Yesterday i had a discussion with one tamil pandit, i asked the meaning of "Kogazhi", he told its one of the name of thiruvavadudurai, but also it means Ko - means king/God here kogazhi means kings's sengol.

So can we interpret this way, while Maanikavasaga's period, the rule of king might not be good, that's why he is saying "Kogazhi aanda" in past tense. what do you say ??

regards,
Yudhajit

[Yudhajit]

[tscii:65a0c53c54]§Å¸õ ¦¸ÎòÐ ¬ñ¼ §Åó¾ý «Ê ¦Åø¸
À¢ÈôÀÚìÌõ À¢ï»¸ý ¾ý ¦Àö¸Æø¸û ¦Åø¸
ÒÈò¾¡÷ìÌî §º§Â¡ý ¾ý âí¸Æø¸û ¦Åø¸
¸Ãõ ÌŢš÷ ¯û Á¸¢Øõ §¸¡ý ¸Æø¸û ¦Åø¸
º¢Ãõ ÌŢš÷ µíÌÅ¢ìÌõ º£§Ã¡ý ¸Æø ¦Åø¸

§Å¸õ ¦¸ÎòÐ - manadu alai paynthu, vegamaga seiyakkudiya seyalgal ellam iraivanai adaya udavathu, so antha vegathai keduthu,
¬ñ¼ - thanpal izhuthukkonda §Åó¾ý «Ê ¦Åø¸
intha adi thelivanadarkkapuram, adhutha adi[/tscii:65a0c53c54]

[madhu]

[tscii:f28ca9b3ec]Hi Ilavenil..!

you hv given these lines..

puRan^dhArkkuch chEyOn than pUN^gazalgaL velga

but Yudhajit posted the same as

ÒÈò¾¡÷ìÌî §º§Â¡ý ¾ý âí¸Æø¸û ¦Åø¸

i dont hv Thiruvasagam with me..
Plz check and tell me which one is correct ?[/tscii:f28ca9b3ec]

[Ilavenil]

[tscii:eff708f291]Hi Ilavenil..!

you hv given these lines..

puRan^dhArkkuch chEyOn than pUN^gazalgaL velga

but Yudhajit posted the same as

ÒÈò¾¡÷ìÌî §º§Â¡ý ¾ý âí¸Æø¸û ¦Åø¸

i dont hv Thiruvasagam with me..
Plz check and tell me which one is correct ?[/tscii:eff708f291]

Hi Madha,

Mannikkavum, konjam velai athigam irrunthathanaL pathiL aLikkavamudiyaviLai.

http://siddhanta.shaivam.org/thivach1.html#chiva

Mele uLa link-il irrunthuthan naan thiruvasakam kandaen.

[Yudhajit]

[tscii:464024ba54]HI Madhu and ilavenil,
ÒÈò¾¡÷ìÌî §º§Â¡ý ¾ý âí¸Æø¸û ¦Åø¸ enpathe sari.
porul vilakkam : ÒÈò¾¡÷ìÌ - irraivannai agathile kandal avannukkum nammakkum entha dooralmum illai. purathile kandaal avan vegu doorathile irruppan, enpathai, ÒÈò¾¡÷ìÌî §º§Â¡ý engirar maanikkavasaga peruman.

regards,
Yudhajit[/tscii:464024ba54]

[Ilavenil]

Yesterday i had a discussion with one tamil pandit, i asked the meaning of "Kogazhi", he told its one of the name of thiruvavadudurai, but also it means Ko - means king/God here kogazhi means kings's sengol.

So can we interpret this way, while Maanikavasaga's period, the rule of king might not be good, that's why he is saying "Kogazhi aanda" in past tense. what do you say ??

regards,
Yudhajit

Hi Yudhajit,

Kadavulai kuda nAm "Andavan" yendru kadantha kalathiL thanae kuruginrum, atharkkum yethavathu veru poruL irukinratha?

[Ilavenil]

[tscii:5e6cc64cc9]HI Madhu and ilavenil,
ÒÈò¾¡÷ìÌî §º§Â¡ý ¾ý âí¸Æø¸û ¦Åø¸ enpathe sari.
porul vilakkam : ÒÈò¾¡÷ìÌ - irraivannai agathile kandal avannukkum nammakkum entha dooralmum illai. purathile kandaal avan vegu doorathile irruppan, enpathai, ÒÈò¾¡÷ìÌî §º§Â¡ý engirar maanikkavasaga peruman.

regards,
Yudhajit[/tscii:5e6cc64cc9]

UngaL vilakkam purinthathu AnaL intha vari yenakku puriyaviLai.

Puraththarkkuch cheyon than pUN^gazalgaL velga
MEndu viLakka mudiyuma?

[Yudhajit]

[tscii:d06c11dc78]ÒÈò¾¡÷ìÌî §º§Â¡ý - endral irraivannai aga kangalal kaanathavarkku avan §º§Â¡ý - doorathil irrupavan.

i guess its clear now ??[/tscii:d06c11dc78]

[Ilavenil]

Purinthu vittathu. Yenna Yudhaji, romba velaiya? pathiL aLikka nAL agivittathu?

[Yudhajit]

Hi ilavenil,

Sorry pa, i had a release last week, that's why it took long time to reply.
approm how'z your work ?
shall we continue with the next line..

[Ilavenil]

Isan adipORRi endhai adibORRi
thEsan aDibORRi Sivan chEvaDi pORRi
nEyaththE ninRa nimalan aDi pORRi
mAyap piRappu aRukkum mannan aDi pORRi
chIrAr perundhuRai nam thEvan aDi pORRi 15
ArAdha inbam aruLum malai pORRi

G.U. Pope transilation:

Praise to the foot of ICan ! Praise to my Father's foot !
Praise to the foot of the Teacher ! Praise to Civan's roseate foot !
Praise to the foot of the Stainless, who in love stood near !
Praise to the foot of the King, who cuts off delusive birth !
Praise to the foot of glorious Perun-turrai's God ! (15)
Praise to the Mount, in grace affording pleasures that cloy not !

---Yennodaiya viLakkam.

Isannudai adi (kAlaLai) patRRi potri. Yen Thanthai adi potri.
Thesan-- ? adi potri. Sivanudaiya sevadi- ? Sezhumaiyana adi potri.
NEyam (anbu)- anbu vazhi nindra kutra matra iravan adi potri.
Inthan ulaga vazhagai oru mAyai, athai vittu vEdu peru kidaikka uthavum mannan adi potri.
Serar perunthurai- Oor peryara? namudaiya thevanudaiya adi potri.
Alakkamudiyatha inbaththai aLLikkum malai (kailasa malaiyil vasippavan? malaiai pondra periyavan?) potri.

[madhu]

HI Ilavenil !

seerAr perunthuRai enbadhu ippodhu uLLa AvudaiyAr koyilai kuRikkum.
Manivasagar thannudaya pAdalgaLil ThirupperunthuRai iRaivanai pAda kAraNam andha kOyilthAn avar pANdiya mannanukkAga vasool seidha paNathil kattiyadhu..

Parameswaran muthozhilil azhikkum thozhil purivadhal avanai "mAyap piRapparukkum mannan" enRu sollugiRar enRu thOnRugiRadhu.

adhu pOlavE amaidhiyAga iruppadhAlum, adhigam mARAmal iruppadhAlum ( "nilaiyin thiriyAthadangiyAn thOtram" enRu vaLLuvar solvadhai gavanikkalam), ingu iRaivanai malai enRu azhaikkiRAR pOlum..

[Ilavenil]

Hi Madhu,

Tamil mozhi migavum arumaiyana sezhumaiyana mozhi, orae varthaikku vevveru poruL kondAllum suvaiyagathan irrukkindrathu. Yudhajitudaiya vera yethavai karuthai sollugirarar yendu parkallam. :)

[viggop]

Dear Ilavenil
"Mayap pirappuarukkum Mannan".
What I think is that in Hindu philosophy,this world is Maya(unreal)
People will have the cycle of birth and death due to their karma.When you are born in Human form,you are expected to strive to attain mukthi.If you attain mukti,you are out of this cycle of birth and death.All the suffering comes because of this birth in this unreal world.Lord Shiva has the power to guide us to mukti.We merge with the Lord and hence we are out of this cycle of "samsara"(repeated birth and death and the troubles associated with it).No more pirappu and irappu for us in this unreal world.

[viggop]

So,I think anyone born in this world should strive continuously to reach Lord Shiva.But since we are born because of our past karmic actions,we have to about doing our duty in this world without any attachment to the result of it.
For e.g.

If atma takes the body of a man,you have to do the duty of taking care of your parents(as a son),your wife(as a husband), children(as their father).
If atma takes body of the woman,then we have to do duty of daughter,wife,mother and daughter in law(extra!)

This duty is to be done dispassionately,meaning that we are not expected to do it for getting praise.A man should try to earn for supporting wife and children through honest means.If his wife and children dont praise him for that,he should not get disillusioned because that is his duty(karma).A wife should cook for her husband with devotion.If the husband does not praise for her cooking,she should not get disillusioned because she has to do duty without expecting the result(praise or abuse).

[Yudhajit]

[tscii:7d30a9145e]®ºý «Ê§À¡üÈ¢ ±ó¨¾ «Ê§À¡üÈ¢
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º£Ã¡÷ ¦ÀÕóÐ¨È ¿õ §¾Åý «Ê §À¡üÈ¢[/quote]

§¾ºý - indtha vaarthai, naamaga varraintha ellaigallai udaya desamaaga irrukka mudhiayadhu. §¾ºý - enbadhu Thejas, thejomayam idhilil ulladhu pol, 'Oli(light) porinthiyavan" enbadhaga irrukkum.

§¿Âò§¾ ¿ ¢ýÈ ¿ ¢ÁÄý - Neyam enbathu "Anbu" - Neyathey ninra nimalan enbadhu anbirukkum idathilellam irrukkum thooyavan. in simple words "Anbe sivam" :)

Ilavenil:- anbu vazhi nindra kutra matra iravan ithuvum perfect.

You are correct ilavenil thamizh oru innimayana mozhi.

I spent some time on this sentence. "Maya pirappu" innum oru porul irrupadhaga thondriayadu - piranthu vittal ondru nichayam adhuthan irrappu. Á¡Â - endral irraakka(to die). Maya pirrappu endral irrappu ondre nichayamai nagarnthu kondirrukkum latchiyam illatha pirappu, so athagaya Á¡Âô À¢ÈôÒ «ÚìÌõ ÁýÉý - en sivan, yenendral pirappukku oru latchiyam vanduvittathey. sivanai adaivathu than adhu

º£Ã¡÷ ¦ÀÕóÐ¨È - sirantha amaippudaya Thiruperundrai, nam devan adi potri.

Thiruchitrambalam

[/tscii:7d30a9145e]

[Yudhajit]

[tscii:7cfa2a9c78]
¬Ã¡¾ *ýÀõ «ÕÙõ Á¨Ä §À¡üÈ¢
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«Åý «ÕÇ¡§Ä « Åý ¾¡û Å½í¸¢î
º¢ó¨¾ Á¸¢Æî º¢Å Òá½õ ¾ý¨É
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[rajraj]

Yudhajit: You are right. 'thesu' stands for light or brightness in Thevaram as in 'thesu yeriya paadham vaNangaamai theriyaan'.

[Ilavenil]

A man should try to earn for supporting wife and children through honest means.If his wife and children dont praise him for that,he should not get disillusioned because that is his duty(karma).A wife should cook for her husband with devotion.If the husband does not praise for her cooking,she should not get disillusioned because she has to do duty without expecting the result(praise or abuse). :lol: :lol: :lol:

I also thought about karma and maya you had mentioned. :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Ilavenil]

[tscii:780d9f7b2f]
¬Ã¡¾ *ýÀõ «ÕÙõ Á¨Ä §À¡üÈ¢
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«Åý «ÕÇ¡§Ä « Åý ¾¡û Å½í¸¢î
º¢ó¨¾ Á¸¢Æî º¢Å Òá½õ ¾ý¨É
Óó¨¾ Å¢¨É ÓØÐõ µÂ ¯¨ÃôÀý ¡ý[/tscii:780d9f7b2f]

G.U. Pope-in mozhipeyarppu:

Praise to the Mount, in grace affording pleasures that cloy not !
Because He, Civan, within my thought abides,
By His grace alone, bowing before His feet,
With joyous thought, Civan's 'Ways of Old' I'll tell,
That thus my former 'deeds' may wholly pass. (20)

Yennudaya viLakkam:

Sivaperuman yen sinthai muzhuvathaiyum Akramithu irrupathal avarae yennullu arulpalikirar. Antha aruLin karanathal nan avarudaya pathathai vanagi, manam magizhnthu, intha Siva puRAnathai yennudai mun piraviyil seitha pAvangaL anaithu yennai vittu neengum varai vidathu yeduthu solluvaen.

[viggop]

Ilavenil
I do not understand the joke! If anything is offensive in my post,please point it to me and I'll delete it.

[Ilavenil]

Ilavenil
I do not understand the joke! If anything is offensive in my post,please point it to me and I'll delete it.

No, no, no. Nothing is offensive in your post. I just thought, how it would feel like if a husband does everything for his family and he has to have the courage not to expect in return. What you have told is 100% true. But, since it is not that easy, since we expect appreciation in every single step in our life, I just laughed. I know some housewifes who wouldn't even cook if their husbands don't appreciate the food even if it tastes like crap.

NAn serithathu ungaL karuthai pArthalla, ungaL karuthai mAnidargaL payanpadutha thudanginaL ulagiL, "thunbam" yendra sollukae idam irrukkathuthu. AnAl sArasari manithargaLin mananilai appadi illaiyae yendru ninaithu sirithaen..

Yen serippu ungaLai kayapadithi irrunthaL thayavuseithu manniththu, "Thiruvasakathai" patri ungaL karuthai avapothu vanthu sollivittu pongaL :(

[viggop]

Ilavenil
Thanks for clearing this up! I thought I had hurt you inadverently. You are right that normal people expect appreciation for everything.But,the use of understanding religious works like thiruvasagam is to learn these truths and try to follow them.If we can put into practice these points atleast 2/10 times in our life,it'll be very much enhanced. :)

[Ilavenil]

the use of understanding religious works like thiruvasagam is to learn these truths and try to follow them.If we can put into practice these points atleast 2/10 times in our life,it'll be very much enhanced. :)

Absolutely!

[Ilavenil]

kaN nudhalAn thangaruNaik kaNgATTa vandhu eydhi
eNNudhaRku eTTA ezhil Argazhal iRainjchi
viN niRaindhum maN niRaindhum mikkAy, viLaNgu oLiyAy,
eN iRandhu ellai ilAdhAnE nin perumchIr
pollA vinaiyEn pugazumARu onRu aRiyEn

G.U. Pope:
I came, attained the grace the 'Brow-eyed' showed,
Adored the beauteous foot by thought unreached.
O Thou, Who fill'st the heaven, Who fill'st the earth, art manifested light,
Transcending thought, Thou boundless One ! Thy glory great
I, man of evil 'deeds' know not the way to praise !

[Ilavenil]

kaN nudhalAn thangaruNaik kaNgATTa vandhu eydhi
eNNudhaRku eTTA ezhil Argazhal iRainjchi
viN niRaindhum maN niRaindhum mikkAy, viLaNgu oLiyAy,
eN iRandhu ellai ilAdhAnE nin perumchIr
pollA vinaiyEn pugazumARu onRu aRiyEn

G.U. Pope:
I came, attained the grace the 'Brow-eyed' showed,
Adored the beauteous foot by thought unreached.
O Thou, Who fill'st the heaven, Who fill'st the earth, art manifested light,
Transcending thought, Thou boundless One ! Thy glory great
I, man of evil 'deeds' know not the way to praise !

Azhagiya puruvangal porunthiya kan udaiya un arulalae nan intha nilai vanthu adaya mudinthathu. Yennaththirkku yettatha azhagiya yezhi porunthiya un paathangalai patri (iranji- pitchcha yeduthala?),yenna (countless or thoughts) mudiyatha yellai illatha unnudaiya periya kaalgalai patri, pollaatha pavangalai theitha naan, unnai pugazhnthu sollalakuda ondrum ariyathavan.

[Ilavenil]

pullAgip pUDAyp puzhuvAy maramAgip
pal virugamAgip paRavaiyAyp pAmbAgik
kallAy manidharAyp pEyAyk kaNaNgaLAy
val achurar Agi munivarAyth thEvarAych
chellAa ninRa ith thAvara chaNgamaththuL

ellAp piRappum piRandhu iLaiththEn, emberumAn
meyyE un pon aDigaL kaNDu inRu vIDu uRREn
uyya en uLLaththuL ONgAramAy ninRa
meyyA vimalA viDaippAgA vEdhaNgaL
aiyA enavONgi Azhndhu aganRa nuNNiyanE

[rajraj]

iLavenil,
Looks like you are translating Pope's translation into Tamil.
nudhal means forehead or netri. kaN nudhalaan is one with an eye on the forehead, Sivaperuman. The meaning should be : 'netri kaN udaiyavan karuNai kaN kaatta'

[Ilavenil]

iLavenil,
Looks like you are translating Pope's translation into Tamil.
nudhal means forehead or netri. kaN nudhalaan is one with an eye on the forehead, Sivaperuman. The meaning should be : 'netri kaN udaiyavan karuNai kaN kaatta'

Hi Raj,

Mikka nandri. Yenakku theriyAmal poivittathu. ThangaLum avvapothu intha "thread"ukku vanthu pogavum. :notworthy:

[Ilavenil]

pullAgip pUDAyp puzhuvAy maramAgip
pal virugamAgip paRavaiyAyp pAmbAgik
kallAy manidharAyp pEyAyk kaNaNgaLAy
val achurar Agi munivarAyth thEvarAych
chellAa ninRa ith thAvara chaNgamaththuL

ellAp piRappum piRandhu iLaiththEn, emberumAn
meyyE un pon aDigaL kaNDu inRu vIDu uRREn
uyya en uLLaththuL ONgAramAy ninRa
meyyA vimalA viDaippAgA vEdhaNgaL
aiyA enavONgi Azhndhu aganRa nuNNiyanE

G.U. Pope:

Grass was I, shrub was I, worm, tree,
Full many a kind of beast, bird, snake,
Stone, man, and demon. 'Midst Thy hosts I served.
The form of mighty Asuras, ascetics, gods I bore.
Within these immobile and mobile forms of life, (30)
In every species born, weary I've grown, great Lord !

HE FOUND THE MASTER
Truly, seeing Thy golden feet this day, I've gained release.
O Truth! as the OngAram dwelling in my soul,
That I may 'scape. O spotless one ! O Master of the bull !
Lord of the VEdas! Rising, sinking, spreading, subtile One ! (35)

Pul, Poondu, puzhu, maram, virugam?, paRavai, paambu, kal, maanida piravi, paey, vallimaivaintha asurar aagi, munivarai, thevaraai, yellaa pirappum piranthu illaithaen, indru, un thiru adigallai kandaen, intha ulaga vazhkaiyil irrunthu veedu peyaru petraen. Yen manathil omkaaramaga thigallgira unmaiyana, kutramattra, vidai paaga, vethangallil, aazhamum agandrum thigallum nunukkamaanavanae.

[rajraj]

iLavenil,
vimalaa = maasatravane, maasatravaa, thooyavane :)

[Ilavenil]

iLavenil,
vimalaa = maasatravane, maasatravaa, thooyavane :)

Yeah, appadithan Yudhajitum sonnAr. maasu= kutram illaiya?

[rajraj]

iLavenil,
I think you are mistaking kutram for kuRai. kuRai means defect, flaw or imperfection. kuRai atravan is probably what you wanted to say. kutram refers to guilt and criminality.
Cheers!

[Ilavenil]

ok, Raj, point taken.

[Ilavenil]

veyyAy, thaNiyAy, iyamAnanAm vimalA
poy Ayina ellAm pOy agala vandharuLi
mey nyAnam Agi miLir kinRa meych chuDarE
egnAnam illAdhEn inbap perumAnE
agnAnam thannai agalvikkum nal aRivE

G.U. Pope:
Thou art the heat ! and Thou the cold ! the Master Thou, O spotless One !
Thou cam'st in grace, that all things false might flee,
True Wisdom, gleaming bright in splendour true,
To me, void of all wisdom, blissful Lord !
O Wisdom fair, causing unwisdom' self to flee far off

[geno]

[tscii:e1592ea5e4]þǧÅÉ¢ø!

¯í¸û ¬÷Åõ Á¸¢ú ¾Õ¸¢ÈÐ! :)

'¾¢ÕÅ¡º¸òÐìÌ ¯Õ¸¡÷ ´ÕÅ¡º¸òÐìÌõ ¯Õ¸¡÷' ±ý¸¢È ¦º¡ü¦È¡¼÷ «Ê¢ø ¯ñ¨Á þÕôÀ¨¾ - ÀÌò¾È¢Å¡Ç÷¸Ùõ ´ô¦À¡ì¦¸¡ûÅ¡÷¸û! ( «¾¡ÅÐ ¦ÅÇ¢ôÀ¡ðÎ ¦Á¡Æ¢Â¢ý ¯ýɾõ ÌÈ¢ò¾ ´ôÒ¾ø :) )

¾Á¢Æ¢§Ä§Â ¾Ã ÓÂüº¢ ¦ºöÔí¸§Çý!

¿£í¸ ¾Á¢Æ¢ø ¾ð¼îÍ ¦ºöÂì ܼ §Åñʾ¢ø¨Ä. ¬í¸¢Äò¾¢§Ä§Â ¦ºöÐ - À¢ý «¨¾ò ¾Á¢Æ¢ø Á¡üȢ즸¡ûÇ ÀÄ ¸ÕÅ¢¸û þ¨½Âò¾¢ø ¯ûÇÉ.

þó¾ ŨÄôÀì¸ò¨¾ô À¡Õí¸û :

http://www.suratha.com/reader.htm

«ó¾ô Àì¸ò¨¾ ¿£í¸û ¯í¸û ¸½¢½¢Â¢ø §ºÁ¢òÐ ¿¢ÚÅ¢ì ¦¸¡ûÇÄ¡õ. offline ¬¸ì ܼ «ó¾ô Àì¸ò¨¾ô ÀÂýÀÎò¾¢ì ¦¸¡ûÇÄ¡õ :)

Use the Top part of that tool for typing in english - and once you have typed - just press the radio button called "Romanised" - which is in the middle region of the two parts, and lO! you wud have the properly converted "thamizh" equivalent of what you typed in the upper part of that box!

If there are any changes to be made regarding spelling or santhip pizhai - u can make them and then post the thamizh script here.

This way you can type in english and covert it to thamizh script.

Sont worry about santhip pizhai, oRRup pizhai et al! :D

We would rather have an (unintended) defective thamizh script post - rather than trying to read thamizh in english!

This is just my humble suggestion, and if u have any more queries please do ask me and id be glad to help :)[/tscii:e1592ea5e4]

[Ilavenil]

inimae Tamizhilae yezhuthukiraen ( Ippothu library la irrunthu yezhuvathal romanized tamilil than yezhutha mudiyum, manikkavum).

[Ilavenil]

veyyAy, thaNiyAy, iyamAnanAm vimalA
poy Ayina ellAm pOy agala vandharuLi
mey nyAnam Agi miLir kinRa meych chuDarE
egnAnam illAdhEn inbap perumAnE
agnAnam thannai agalvikkum nal aRivE

G.U. Pope:
Thou art the heat ! and Thou the cold ! the Master Thou, O spotless One !
Thou cam'st in grace, that all things false might flee,
True Wisdom, gleaming bright in splendour true,
To me, void of all wisdom, blissful Lord !
O Wisdom fair, causing unwisdom' self to flee far off

வெப்பமும், குளிர்ச்சியுமன மாசற்றவனே,பொய்மையை எல்லாம் நீக்கி அருளி, உண்மையான அறிவாகத ்திகழும் சுடரெ, ஞானம்/ அறிவு அற்றவன் நான், இன்பம் அளிக்கும் பெருமானே அந்த ஞானத்தை எனக்கு ஊட்டும் நல்ல அறிவானவனே.

[geno]

[tscii:114d53cf12]வெப்பமும், குளிர்ச்சியுமன மாசற்றவனெ,பொய்மையை எல்லாம் நீக்கி அருளி, உண்மையான அறிவாகத்திகளும் சுடரெ, ஞானம்/ அறிவு அற்றவன் நான், இன்பம் அளிக்கும் பெருமானே அந்த ஞானத்தை ஏனக்கு ஊட்டும் நல்ல அறிவானவனெ. [/tscii:114d53cf12]

[tscii:114d53cf12] þǧÅÉ¢ø!

«Õ¨Á! :)

«¾¢¸õ ±ØòÐô À¢¨Æ¸û ¸¡½Å¢ø¨Ä! :D

µÃ¢Ãñ¨¼î Íð¼ ¯í¸û þΨ¸¨Â Á£ñÎõ ¾Õ¸¢§Èý.

¯í¸û þΨ¸(Post) Unicode ӨȢø ¯ûÇÐ. ¿¡ý TSCII ±ØòÐÕ Ó¨È¢ø ¾Õ¸¢§Èý :)

"¦ÅôÀÓõ, ÌÇ¢÷ÔÁ¡É Á¡ºüÈŧÉ!

¦À¡ö¨Á¨Â ±øÄ¡õ ¿£ì¸¢ «ÕÇ¢, ¯ñ¨ÁÂ¡É «È¢Å¡¸ò¾¢¸Øõ ͼ§Ã!

»¡Éõ/ «È¢× «üÈÅý ¿¡ý, þýÀõ «Ç¢ìÌõ ¦ÀÕÁ¡§É!
«ó¾ »¡Éò¨¾ ±ÉìÌ °ðÎõ ¿øÄ «È¢Å¡ÉŧÉ! "[/tscii:114d53cf12]

[Ilavenil]

[tscii:c15e19b0c2]வெப்பமும், குளிர்ச்சியுமன மாசற்றவனெ,பொய்மையை எல்லாம் நீக்கி அருளி, உண்மையான அறிவாகத்திகளும் சுடரெ, ஞானம்/ அறிவு அற்றவன் நான், இன்பம் அளிக்கும் பெருமானே அந்த ஞானத்தை ஏனக்கு ஊட்டும் நல்ல அறிவானவனெ. [/tscii:c15e19b0c2]

[tscii:c15e19b0c2] þǧÅÉ¢ø!

«Õ¨Á! :)

«¾¢¸õ ±ØòÐô À¢¨Æ¸û ¸¡½Å¢ø¨Ä! :D

µÃ¢Ãñ¨¼î Íð¼ ¯í¸û þΨ¸¨Â Á£ñÎõ ¾Õ¸¢§Èý.

¯í¸û þΨ¸(Post) Unicode ӨȢø ¯ûÇÐ. ¿¡ý TSCII ±ØòÐÕ Ó¨È¢ø ¾Õ¸¢§Èý :)

"¦ÅôÀÓõ, ÌÇ¢÷ÔÁ¡É Á¡ºüÈŧÉ!

¦À¡ö¨Á¨Â ±øÄ¡õ ¿£ì¸¢ «ÕÇ¢, ¯ñ¨ÁÂ¡É «È¢Å¡¸ò¾¢¸Øõ ͼ§Ã!

»¡Éõ/ «È¢× «üÈÅý ¿¡ý, þýÀõ «Ç¢ìÌõ ¦ÀÕÁ¡§É!
«ó¾ »¡Éò¨¾ ±ÉìÌ °ðÎõ ¿øÄ «È¢Å¡ÉŧÉ! "[/tscii:c15e19b0c2]

Hi Geno,

Thanks for the corrections. UNICODE use pannumpothu, Tamizhil yezhuthuvathu pol illaye. Migavum siramamaga ullathu. uthaaranathirkku, "enakku" enpathai, "Enakku" yendru kavanakkuraival yezhuthi irrupaen, ippothu paarungaL padippatharkku migavum asingamaaga irrukkirathu. Ithai thiruthuvathenral, meendum yezhuthavendum. :cry:

[rajraj]

iLavenil,
The interpretation for the last line is slightly different, I think.

gnaanam= wisdom, arivu .....agngnaanam= ignorance,aRiyaamai,matamai.

akal= remove, separate

agngnaam thnnai akalvikkum nal aRive = Oh! wisdom who removes my ignorance or

en aRiyaamai akaRRum nal aRive.


cheers!

[Ilavenil]

iLavenil,
The interpretation for the last line is slightly different, I think.

gnaanam= wisdom, arivu .....agngnaanam= ignorance,aRiyaamai,matamai.

akal= remove, separate

agngnaam thnnai akalvikkum nal aRive = Oh! wisdom who removes my ignorance or

en aRiyaamai akaRRum nal aRive.


cheers!

agngnaanathai "antha gnaanam" yendru thavaraaga purinthu kondu vittaen, neengaL solluvathu sariyae.

[geno]

Ilavenil,

neengaL thamizhilthAn ezuthavENdum enbathillai!

e-kalappai enkiRa "ceyali"yai (tool) payanpaduththinAl siramam irukkAthu enRu eNNukiREn. Angilathil uLLeedu seivathE eLithaay uLLathenRaal thodarungaL.

ungaL "thiru(vAsakap) paNiyai" thodarungaL! :D

[Ilavenil]

ஆக்கம் அளவு இறுதி இல்லாய், அனைத்து உலகும்
ஆக்குவாய் காப்பாய் அழிப்பாய் அருள் தருவாய்
போக்குவாய் என்னைப் புகுவிப்பாய் நின் தொழும்பின்
நாற்றத்தின் நேரியாய், சேயாய், நணியானே
மாற்றம் மனம் கழிய நின்ற மறையோனே

Akkam aLavu iRudhi illAy, anaiththu ulagum
AkkuvAy kAppAy azhippAy aruL tharuvAy
pOkkuvAy ennaip puguvippAy nin thozhumbin
nARRaththin nEriyAy, chEyAy, naNiyAnE
mARRam manam kazhiya ninRa maRaiyOnE

[Ilavenil]

ஆக்கம் அளவு இறுதி இல்லாய், அனைத்து உலகும்
ஆக்குவாய் காப்பாய் அழிப்பாய் அருள் தருவாய்
போக்குவாய் என்னைப் புகுவிப்பாய் நின் தொழும்பின்
நாற்றத்தின் நேரியாய், சேயாய், நணியானே
மாற்றம் மனம் கழிய நின்ற மறையோனே

Akkam aLavu iRudhi illAy, anaiththu ulagum
AkkuvAy kAppAy azhippAy aruL tharuvAy
pOkkuvAy ennaip puguvippAy nin thozhumbin
nARRaththin nEriyAy, chEyAy, naNiyAnE
mARRam manam kazhiya ninRa maRaiyOnE

Akkam (creation?), yentha aLavukolalum aLakkamudiyathavan, mudivu illathavan, neeyae anaithu ulagathaiyum padaippai, kaappai, theeyavai azhippaai, aruLpaalippai, kettavaRRai pokkuvaai, unnai thothuvathal yennai unnul, unnai saarnthavanai puguvippaai, naRumanathai vida subtle- aanavanae (tamilil yenna?), ?Seyaai, ? nanniyanae (? nuNukkamanavanae), mana maatraththai tharum vedhangalaip pondravanae.

[Idiappam]

?Seyaai, ? nanniyanae

sEyaai = tholaivil iruppavanE
naniyaanE = arukil iruppavanE

(The Lord) who is far yet so near!

[viggop]

mARRam manam kazhiya ninRa maRaiyOnE

Idiappam Sir
Is this marai(vedham) the 4 Vedas in Sanskrit(Rig,Yajur,Sama ,Atharva)?
Or Manikavasagar/Gnanasampandhar/sundarar and appar meant some other Tamil works when they used the word "marai".
If it meant the Sanskrit Vedas,it means that all these great Nayanmars must have understood Sanskrit too and must have learnt Vedas from North Indian brahmins? Or by the times of Nayanmars, Vedas were well spread in Thamizh land too?

[Idiappam]

mARRam manam kazhiya ninRa maRaiyOnE

Idiappam Sir
Is this marai(vedham) the 4 Vedas in Sanskrit(Rig,Yajur,Sama ,Atharva)?
Or Manikavasagar/Gnanasampandhar/sundarar and appar meant some other Tamil works when they used the word "marai".
If it meant the Sanskrit Vedas,it means that all these great Nayanmars must have understood Sanskrit too and must have learnt Vedas from North Indian brahmins? Or by the times of Nayanmars, Vedas were well spread in Thamizh land too?

manam kazhiya ninRa maRaiyOnE
He who stands hidden from our hearts.

Here, in context it means that the lord is hidden!

Vedic influence was there in Tamil country long before the 'Manikavasagar/Gnanasampandhar/sundarar and appar ' period.

Ilango Adigal (2nd century AD) mentions some vedic gods too - see manaiaRappadutha kaathai of his Silapathigaram.

Nayanmars did understand the vedas, I guess. But, it seems that only Appar opposed the Vedics in a few of this songs!

The rest later!

[viggop]

Thanks Idiappam Sir
If vedas were there even during the Silapadhikaram period,that means Tamils must definitely have mastered Sanskrit and vedas during 2nd century AD.Otherwise, there is no way they could have understood vedas.It also means that there was a rich cultural exchange between South and North India even during those times when there was no easy communication.

Nayanmars and alwars were very wise and well read people.Atleast the big 4 of the nayanmars were very erudite.Since, they praised Vedas, does that mean the philosophy in Vedas was in agreement with Tamil Saivite philosophy spread by the Nayanmars? Because ,other philosophies like Advaita,Dvaita and VishishtaDvaita also base themselves on Vedas.

With much respect and deference to all these great philosophers who were blessed by God Himself,i want to know whether Vedas could be interpreted by anyone in anyway to suit their philosophy? Some english translations of Vedas which I read did not contain much philosophical meaning.Maybe,the Vedas as available to these Nayanmars were different and are lost now?Because people of the calibre of GnanaSampandhar,manikavasagar,sundarar and appar were blessed and cannot go wrong.THere must be something very good in Vedas that all the philosophers in North and South cherish them.

[Idiappam]

Viggop said:

It also means that there was a rich cultural exchange between South and North

There is no richness in the vedas!


Since, they praised Vedas, does that mean the philosophy in Vedas was in agreement with Tamil Saivite philosophy spread by the Nayanmars?

Where??? The praising of any form of worship is THE phliosophy of the Tamils - The Siddhantic tought! That's the reason they appreacited vedic worship! Remember the Vedas are polytheistic, unlike the Tamil Saivism!


Because ,other philosophies like Advaita,Dvaita and VishishtaDvaita also base themselves on Vedas.

You are wrong there!


i want to know whether Vedas could be interpreted by anyone in anyway to suit their philosophy? Some english translations of Vedas which I read did not contain much philosophical meaning

There is no philosophy in the Vedas, so stop looking for that there! There Rig and Sama vedas are just 'devotional' songs that is sung during the various barbaric rituals of the Arayans. Yajur Vedas is about conducting sacrifices - animal included. The Atharvan is a book of charms that you can use if you belive in black magic.


Maybe,the Vedas as available to these Nayanmars were different and are lost now?Because people of the calibre of GnanaSampandhar,manikavasagar,sundarar and appar were blessed and cannot go wrong.

Yes they may not be talking about the 4 Aryan Vedas.


THere must be something very good in Vedas that all the philosophers in North and South cherish them.

That 'all forms of worship goes to the Lord' is a basic thought of the Tamils - weather or not the 'vedas contain good or bad'.

[Ilavenil]

Aga motham, neenga rendu perrum, naan yezhuthina viLakkam saria illaiyannu sollave illa.

[viggop]

Idiappam Sir
Thanks for your clarification.

Even Tamils were polytheistic,I thought.Because Mal/Vishnu ,Murugan(Tamil Kadavul) was also worshipped by the Allwars plus lot of village deities like Madurai Veeran etc. with lot of animal sacrifices too

I'm surprised that you are saying that Advaita,Dvaita and VishishtaDvaita are not based on Vedas.If so, i was grossly misinformed.What are these philosophies based upon?

I thought that Advaita emphasised Gnana marga form of worship(than ritualistic karma marga)while VishishtaDvaita and Dvaita emphsised Bhakthi marga of Vedas(than gnana marga).Adi Sankara,Ramanujacharya and Madhwacharya have written bhashyas on upanishads,brahmasutras etc and I thought these works were based on Vedas and they praised the vedas too in their slokams.The followers of these philosophies like Sankaracharyas and Jeeyars praise the Vedas a lot and conduct schools all over India for Vedic training.SO, i assumed that those philosophies must have been based on Vedas.what will they be teaching in these Vedic schools? My guess is that they might have some other way of interpretation other than the english interpretations I read as otherwise this cannot be sustained on false things.

Also, I read somewhere that only 6% of vedas are remaining now and 94% are lost.Surely, philosophers like Adi Sankara,ramanujacharya and madhwacharya were equal in calibre and brilliance to Tamil Nayanmars and they too wont be fooled to believe in Vedas if it really did not have anything useful.

There is some missing link between the Vedas praised by all these philosophers and perhaps the Vedas we have now which were translated to English.

[viggop]

Ilavenil
Mannithu Vidungal !!!
Idiappam Sir is a well read scholar who has lot of knowledge in Thamizh, different philosophies,classical music etc.I could not resist the temptation to ask questions and learn from him. Please continue your posting on Thiruvasagam too so that everyone can learn as much as about Hinduism.

[Ilavenil]

kaRandha pAl kannaloDu neygalandhAR pOlach
chiRandhaDiyAr chindhanaiyuL thEnURi ninRu
piRandha piRappu aRukkum eNgaL perumAn
niRaNgaL Or aindhu uDaiyAy, viNNOrgaL Eththa
maRaindhirundhAy, emberumAn valvinaiyEn thannai

கறந்த பால் கன்னலொடு நெய்கலந்தாற் போலச்
சிறந்தடியார் சிந்தனையுள் தேனூறி நின்று
பிறந்த பிறப்பு அறுக்கும் எங்கள் பெருமான்
நிறங்கள் ஓர் ஐந்து உடையாய், விண்ணோர்கள் ஏத்த
மறைந்திருந்தாய், எம்பெருமான் வல்வினையேன் தன்னை

G.U. Pope:

As when are mingled milk, sweet juice of cane and butter,
Thou dost distil, like honey, in the thought of glorious devotees,
And cuttest off the continuity of births - our mighty One !
HUMAN EMBODIMENT AND ENLIGHTENMENT BY GRACE
Thou hast the colours five ! While heavenly ones extolled
Thou didst lie hid, our mighty Lord ! In the strong grasp of deeds, (50)

[viggop]

What are the 5 colours of Shiva mentioned here?

[Ilavenil]

What are the 5 colours of Shiva mentioned here?

Yudhaji, nirangaL 5-i, imbulangalodu oppitaar.

[rajraj]

ஆக்கம் அளவு இறுதி இல்லாய், அனைத்து உலகும்
ஆக்குவாய் காப்பாய் அழிப்பாய் அருள் தருவாய்
போக்குவாய் என்னைப் புகுவிப்பாய் நின் தொழும்பின்
நாற்றத்தின் நேரியாய், சேயாய், நணியானே
மாற்றம் மனம் கழிய நின்ற மறையோனே

Akkam aLavu iRudhi illAy, anaiththu ulagum
AkkuvAy kAppAy azhippAy aruL tharuvAy
pOkkuvAy ennaip puguvippAy nin thozhumbin
nARRaththin nEriyAy, chEyAy, naNiyAnE
mARRam manam kazhiya ninRa maRaiyOnE

Akkam (creation?), yentha aLavukolalum aLakkamudiyathavan, mudivu illathavan, neeyae anaithu ulagathaiyum padaippai, kaappai, theeyavai azhippaai, aruLpaalippai, kettavaRRai pokkuvaai, unnai thothuvathal yennai unnul, unnai saarnthavanai puguvippaai, naRumanathai vida subtle- aanavanae (tamilil yenna?), ?Seyaai, ? nanniyanae (? nuNukkamanavanae), mana maatraththai tharum vedhangalaip pondravanae.

iLavenil,
My interpretation:

Akkam should be interpreted as birth or beginning- aadhi.
aadhiyum anthamum illaadhavan. aLavyu illaai = aLappadharkariyavan. He uses these in some other verses.
pokkuvaai means guide or show the path.
puguvippai should be interpreted as 'one who gives salvation'
One who shows the path to salvation (mukthi).
I think nARRam means something else. I have to think.
maatram manam kazhiya = my mind is filled with different
or conflicting images of you- you have no beginning, you have no end, you are not 'measurable' or assessable, you are near, you are distant, you create, you protect, you destroy......
In short I am confused by the changing (maatram) roles you play.

[Ilavenil]

ஆக்கம் அளவு இறுதி இல்லாய், அனைத்து உலகும்
ஆக்குவாய் காப்பாய் அழிப்பாய் அருள் தருவாய்
போக்குவாய் என்னைப் புகுவிப்பாய் நின் தொழும்பின்
நாற்றத்தின் நேரியாய், சேயாய், நணியானே
மாற்றம் மனம் கழிய நின்ற மறையோனே

Akkam aLavu iRudhi illAy, anaiththu ulagum
AkkuvAy kAppAy azhippAy aruL tharuvAy
pOkkuvAy ennaip puguvippAy nin thozhumbin
nARRaththin nEriyAy, chEyAy, naNiyAnE
mARRam manam kazhiya ninRa maRaiyOnE

Akkam (creation?), yentha aLavukolalum aLakkamudiyathavan, mudivu illathavan, neeyae anaithu ulagathaiyum padaippai, kaappai, theeyavai azhippaai, aruLpaalippai, kettavaRRai pokkuvaai, unnai thothuvathal yennai unnul, unnai saarnthavanai puguvippaai, naRumanathai vida subtle- aanavanae (tamilil yenna?), ?Seyaai, ? nanniyanae (? nuNukkamanavanae), mana maatraththai tharum vedhangalaip pondravanae.

iLavenil,
My interpretation:

I have to think.
maatram manam kazhiya = my mind is filled with different
or conflicting images of you- you have no beginning, you have no end, you are not 'measurable' or assessable, you are near, you are distant, you create, you protect, you destroy......
In short I am confused by the changing (maatram) roles you play.

Arumaiyana viLakkam. Ellor manathilum ulla kuzhappam thanae ithu :)

[rajraj]

What are the 5 colours of Shiva mentioned here?

Yudhaji, nirangaL 5-i, imbulangalodu oppitaar.

iLavenil,
It is not aimpulan (five senses). It refers to the five elements in nature- earth,sky,air,water and fire. Remember Shiva appears in all five forms in different temples. In another verse he sings 'vaan aagi maN aagi vaLi aagi oLi aagi'.

[viggop]

Rajraj
Do you mean the panchaboothams?

There are temple for Shiva for each of his panchbootham manifestations. 4 are in TN and Kalahasthi is in Andhra.

ThiruvAnaikA - appu - water
ThiruvaNNAmalai - thEyu - fire
ThirukkALahasthi - vAyu - air
KAnychIpuram(Ekampam) - pruthvi - land
Chithamparam - AkAsam - sky

Muthuswamy Dikshitar has composed beautiful Krithis for each of these temples when he visited them.Famously known as panchalinga/panchabhutam kritis.

Listen to Bombay Jayashree's rendition of them
http://www.musicindiaonline.com/l/1/s/album.2308/artist.103/
The 5 kritis are
(1)Ananda Natanaprakasham(Kedaram)
(2)Sri Kalahastheena(Husseni)
(3)Arunachalanadham(saranga)
(4)Jambuphate(Yamuna Kalyani)
(5)Chintayamam(Bhairavi)

DK jayaraman also included Parvathi Pathima and Sri Parvathi Parameshvarow in the Kritis list.

[rajraj]

Viggop: Thanks for the info on panchabootham and Sivaperumaan.
I have all the composition by the Thiruvarur trinity- Thyagaraja, Dikshithar and Shyama Sastri and several records.
The five elements are known as panchabootham.

[Ilavenil]

kaRandha pAl kannaloDu neygalandhAR pOlach
chiRandhaDiyAr chindhanaiyuL thEnURi ninRu
piRandha piRappu aRukkum eNgaL perumAn
niRaNgaL Or aindhu uDaiyAy, viNNOrgaL Eththa
maRaindhirundhAy, emberumAn valvinaiyEn thannai


Karantha paalil kaRkandu, nei ivaRRai kalanthaar pol, unnudaiya sirantha adiyavargaLin sinthanaiyuL thenaga oori nindru, intha ulaga vazhvil paRRai agatri maRupiravi tholai neekum engaL iraivanae,
nee imboothangalagi irruppavan, vinnavar (vaanathil ulla thevar maRRun pira kadavuLgaLal) kaanamudiyathapadi maRainthu irrunthai, vaLvinai (? naam munpu seitha nalathu maRRum theyanae)
niRaNgaL Or aindhu uDaiyAy, viNNOrgaL Eththa
maRaindhirundhAy, emberumAn valvinaiyEn thannai - sariyaaga theriyavilai.

[Ilavenil]

ThiruvAnaikA - appu - water
ThiruvaNNAmalai - thEyu - fire
ThirukkALahasthi - vAyu - air
KAnychIpuram(Ekampam) - pruthvi - land
Chithamparam - AkAsam - sky


Thiruvannamalai:
Bhrama introduced himself to Vishnu as the Creator of the Universe, to which Vishnu replied that he was the architect of the Universe. An argument ensued between both as to their superiority over one another, when there appeared before them - a huge lingam of fire - with tongues of flames blazing out of it.

Curious to trace the origins of this column of fire, Bhrama assumed the form of a swan and flew upwards, while Vishnu assumed the form of a boar, and burrowed down into the earth.

While Bhrama was flying upwards in the guise of a swan, he saw the petals of a thaalambu flower drifting down. Tired by the futility of his efforts to reach the top of the mysterious column of fire, Bhrama requested the flower to acquiese to his lie that he had seen the top of the column where the flower had previously resided. Accompanied by his accomplice, Bhrama confronted Vishnu and asserted that he had indeed discovered the origin of the cosmic column. An enraged Shiva appeared out of the fiery column and cursed Bhrama so that he would not be worshipped in temples on earth. Then both surrendered to this column of fire with prayers.

The manifestation of Shiva in this column of fire in front of Bhrama and Vishnu, is carved in stone, as the Lingodbhavamurthy manifestation of Shiva, and is always enshrined in the rear niche of the sanctum enshring a Shivalingam. Since most temples face east, Lingodbhavar faces West.

[viggop]

Nanri Ilavenil.I have heard of this story before too.
Hope you liked Bombay Jayashree's rendition of the panchabootha/panchalinga krithis of Dikshitar

[viggop]

You can listen to thiruvempavai ,thirupalliyezhuchi of Manicavasagar in
http://www.musicindiaonline.com/l/7/m/language.8/
Beautifully rendered by MLV

[Ilavenil]

Viggop Sir.

Linksukku nandri.

[viggop]

Please continue this valuable topic.

[Ilavenil]

maRaindhiDa mUDiya mAya iruLai
aRambAvam ennum arum kayiRnAl kaTTi
puRamdhOl pOrththu eNgum puzu azukku mUDi,
malam chOrum onbadhu vAyil kuDilai
malaNgap pulan aindhum vanychanaiyaich cheyya, 55

vilaNgu manaththAl, vimalA unakku
kalandha anbAgik kachindhu uL urugum
nalam thAn ilAdha chiRiyERku nalgi
nilam thanmEl vandhu aruLi nILgazalgaL kATTi,
nAyiR kaDaiyAyk kiDandha aDiyERkuth

G.U. Pope:
I lay, hidden amid illusion's shrouding gloom.
Thou binding with rare cords of virtue and of sin,
Didst clothe with outer skin, enveloping with worms and filth, -
Within my nine-gated dwelling foul bewildered,
By the five senses sore deceived, - (55)
To me, mean as I was, with no good thing, Thou didst grant grace,
That I, with mind erewhile embruted, - pure one ! - should
Become commingling love, in soul-subduing rapture melt !
Thou cam'st in grace on this same earth, didst show Thy mighty feet
To me who lay mere slave, - meaner than any dog, - (60)

மறைந்திட மூடிய மாய இருளை
அறம்பாவம் என்னும் அரும் கயிற்னால் கட்டி
புறம்தோல் போர்த்து எங்கும் புழு அழுக்கு மூடி,
மலம் சோரும் ஒன்பது வாயில் குடிலை
மலங்கப் புலன் ஐந்தும் வஞ்சனையைச் செய்ய,

விலங்கு மனத்தால், விமலா உனக்கு
கலந்த அன்பாகிக் கசிந்து உள் உருகும்
நலம் தான் இலாத சிறியேற்கு நல்கி
நிலம் தன்மேல் வந்து அருளி நீள்கழல்கள் காட்டி,
நாயிற் கடையாய்க் கிடந்த அடியேற்குத்

[viggop]

This 9 gated opening is the human body.I have found this reference to gross body as that with 9 opening in sanskrit upanishads too.

I think Manicavasagar wants to get rid of this human body(which is acquired because of previous karmas and which will undergo decay and death) by attaining moksha and merging with the lord.

[Idiappam]

Viggop said:

I think Manicavasagar wants to get rid of this human body(which is acquired because of previous karmas and which will undergo decay and death) by attaining moksha and merging with the lord.

The 'merging with the lord' is a Vedantic concept, not Siddhantam! In Siddhantam you just 'reach the feet of the Lord'!

[viggop]

Viggop said:

I think Manicavasagar wants to get rid of this human body(which is acquired because of previous karmas and which will undergo decay and death) by attaining moksha and merging with the lord.

The 'merging with the lord' is a Vedantic concept, not Siddhantam! In Siddhantam you just 'reach the feet of the Lord'!


Is it? I did not know this difference.In Siddhanta,the atma/soul reaches the feet of the Lord but it is different from the Lord? It enjoys permanent bliss at the Lord's feet?

I'm just trying to learn more about our religion Hinduism.Do not have knowledge to distinguish between Vedanta/Siddhanta etc.I'm just clubbing them under "Hindu philosophy" and trying to learn more. :D

It would be great if moderators allow us to create religion based threads on topics like Siddhantam if we can assure them abuse of other religions will not take place in the threads. Unfortunately,such threads are hijacked by people having lot of anger and hate in them and end up abusing other philosophies and religions :(

[Ilavenil]

Viggop said:

I think Manicavasagar wants to get rid of this human body(which is acquired because of previous karmas and which will undergo decay and death) by attaining moksha and merging with the lord.

The 'merging with the lord' is a Vedantic concept, not Siddhantam! In Siddhantam you just 'reach the feet of the Lord'!

Idiappam Sir,

I know nothing about vedantha and siddhantha. All I knew as a child was, I am a hindu, we go to temple and pray. I have just started to learn that hinduism is not what I really thought it was. Can you please explain the origin of Siddhantham and how it is different from vedantham and its concepts, please? I am trying to see where my belives really fit in.

Thanks.

[Sudhaama]

// Viggop said:... I think Manicavasagar wants to get rid of this human body(which is acquired because of previous karmas and which will undergo decay and death) by attaining moksha and merging with the lord.

Idiappam wrote:

// The 'merging with the lord' is a Vedantic concept, not Siddhantam! In Siddhantam you just 'reach the feet of the Lord'!//

Sidhdaantham... and Vedhaantham are different words whose meanings also are different.

SIDHDHANTHAM = Theory / Principle / Doctrine...

... such as Saiva-Sidhadhantham = Saiva principles or as above.

Vedhaantham = Philosophy, ( Detailing the Spiritualism more than the Religious aspects...Inter-relations between various Life-objects, Created Souls, Abstract-powers and God's Divinity.. Cosmic / Super-soul)

Veda + Antham = Extremity of Vedic sense (Philosophy beyond Religion)

[Ilavenil]

thAyiR chiRandha thayA Ana thaththuvanE
mAchaRRa chOdhi malarndha malarchchuDarE
thEchanE thEn AramudhE chivaburAnE
pAchamAm paRRu aRuththup pArikkum AriyanE
nEcha aruLburindhu nenychil vanycham keDap 65

pErAdhu ninRa peruNgaruNaip pOrARE
ArA amudhE aLavilAp pemmAnE
OrAdhAr uLLaththu oLikkum oLiyAnE
nIrAy urukki en AruyirAy ninRAnE
inbamum thunbamum illAnE uLLAnE


தாயிற் சிறந்த தயா ஆன தத்துவனே
மாசற்ற சோதி மலர்ந்த மலர்ச்சுடரே
தேசனே தேன் ஆரமுதே சிவபுரானே
பாசமாம் பற்று அறுத்துப் பாரிக்கும் ஆரியனே
நேச அருள்புரிந்து நெஞ்சில் வஞ்சம் கெடப் 65

பேராது நின்ற பெருங்கருணைப் போராறே
ஆரா அமுதே அளவிலாப் பெம்மானே
ஓராதார் உள்ளத்து ஒளிக்கும் ஒளியானே
நீராய் உருக்கி என் ஆருயிராய் நின்றானே
இன்பமும் துன்பமும் இல்லானே உள்ளானே

G.U. Pope:
Essential grace more precious than a mother's love !

EPITHETS OF PRAISE
Spotless splendour ! Brightness of full-blown flower !
O Teacher ! Honied ambrosia ! Lord of Civa-town !
O venerated One, Guardian, Looser of PAcam's tie,
Working in grace of love, that in my mind delultion may die out ! (65)
Great river of exceeding tenderness, with ceaseless flow !
Ambrosia that satiates not ! Infinite, almighty Lord !
Light unseen that lurks within the souls that sought Thee not !
Thou Who abidest in my soul, till melting waters flow !
Thou Who art without pleasure or pain, Who yet hast both ! (70)

[viggop]

OK.No more discussion on Siddhantam/Vedantam/BG in this thread.this thread will become a joke if people who are trying to reach God become angry and start abusing other people.
Let only thiruvasagam posts and its explanations be on this thread. Sigh!


Mod Msg: Digressions pruned out. If you want to discuss off-topic, pls go to the approrpriate forum and start a new topic.

[Idiappam]

* deleted *

[viggop]

Caste/religious based abuse are not allowed in this forum. :(

Please let us keep this thread to discuss Thiruvasagam only.

[Idiappam]

To me who lay mere slave, - meaner than any dog, - (60)
- Thiruvasagam!

[viggop]

நேச அருள்புரிந்து நெஞ்சில் வஞ்சம் கெடப் 65

Here,does "Vanjam" mean delusion? what exactly does the word "vanjam" mean here?Please explain.Thanks

[viggop]

Today,i read something strange about Nayanmars in Hindu newspaper.
It said that Manickavasagar has not been named as a nayanmar either by appar or sekizhar.Is this true?
The article then says ,probably manicavasagar lived suring some other later time than 3rd-8th century AD.But analysing the Tamil works for manikavasagar,scholars are of the view that he could not be placed later than 8th century AD. then,how come he is not counted as one of the nayanmars?

also, the article says that the oldest nayanmar was Karaikal Ammayar?

[rajraj]

நேச அருள்புரிந்து நெஞ்சில் வஞ்சம் கெடப் 65

Here,does "Vanjam" mean delusion? what exactly does the word "vanjam" mean here?Please explain.Thanks

viggop: vanjam means illusion, lie, deceit ,fraud etc. Here it should be illusion or 'maayai'.

[Idiappam]

Viggop said:


It said that Manickavasagar has not been named as a nayanmar either by appar or sekizhar.Is this true?
Yes, that is true. But why do you mention appar here? It was Sundarar of the 9th Century who listed the 62 nayanmars (63 including himself) in his Thiruthondar Thogai - Manickavasagar is not on that list.

Samayak kuravar Naalvar - Sambandar, Appar, Sundarar and Manickavasagar. Authors of Thirumurais 1 - 8.


The article then says ,probably manicavasagar lived suring some other later time than 3rd-8th century AD.But analysing the Tamil works for manikavasagar,scholars are of the view that he could not be placed later than 8th century AD. then,how come he is not counted as one of the nayanmars?

Manickavasagar's Tamil is simple. Simpler than Appar's. He speaks pluralistic Saivism. Therefore scholars think he is born after Sankara (the advaitin) - 5th Century, putting him closer to Ramanuja and Madhava - of the Dualistic School.

Appar and Sambandar are dated 6th - 7th Century - the Pallava period. Appar talks a lot about Kanchi. Some scholars put Manickavagar before Appar - between 3rd - 5th Century, because Appar mentions the 'Wolf into Horses' episode that is said to have happened during Manickavasagar's life. Appar's lines goes:

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Thirunavukkarasar Thevaram 4.4.2


also, the article says that the oldest nayanmar was Karaikal Ammayar?
Yes, she is the most Senior of all the Nayanmars! Her writings are found in Thirumurai 11.

[viggop]

Thanks Idiappam.I'm sorry.It is "Thiruthondar Thogai" by Sundarar which has been mentioned in the article.

Coming to the main question.Why is not manickavasagar not named as one of the 63 nayanmars.
People must have known his works(Thiruvasagam).He is fit to be one of the Nayanmars as Shiva appeared to him twice.Once for the "nari turning into Pari" and the other in Chidambaram during his last days.

Adi Sankarar's date is 788AD-820AD.That is the official date of Sankara.Since Adi Sankara praises Sampandar in his Soundarya lahari as Dravida sishu,does that mean he accepts the philosophy of shaiva siddhantam?Like sampandhar defeated Jains in debates,Shankara defeated buddhists in N.India.

[Idiappam]

We have 63 Nayanmars. Plus 1 individual saint - Manikavasagar

As I said, the 63 Nayanmars is based on Sundarar's Thiruthondar thogai list. The later Namiyandar Nambi and Sekkizhar continued the 63 Nayanmar canon - Manikavasagar was ommited by all three. That being the main reason for the controversy of his date.

Maraimalai Adigal has written 2 volumes on this controversy running to more than 600 pages, in his 'Manikavasagar varalarum kalamum' - I have not seen that work.

Sambandar and Appar mentioned a number of Nayanmars in their works - but failed to mention Manikavasagar - by name.

Nayanmars who lived before Sambandar and Appar:
Kotchengat Cholar , Chandesar, Kannapar, Sakkiyar, Kanampullar, Amarneethi, Arivaldayar, Naminanthi, Thandi, Pugalthunai, Pugalcholar, Eripathar, Kurruvar, Murthi, Aiyadigal Kadavar Kon, Thirumoolar and Karaikaal Ammai.

Contemporary Nayanmars of Sambandar and Appar:
Kulachirai, Siruthondar, Nilakanda Yazhpanar, Nilakandar, Nindraseer Nedumaram, Mangayarkarasi, Murugar and Appoothi Adigal.

Sankara's 'dravida sisu' is again a controversy - who did he talk of - Sambandar?? Why? Probably he admired the Tamils Saints and their way of religion. In his Sivananda Lahari (verse 63), Sankara praises Kannappa Nayanaar, "marvellous, simply wonderful'.

But the anti-Jain-Buddhist campaign is another story. I am not really happy with Sambandars words on that issue. Very cruel!

[viggop]

Idiappam Sir
I read the translation of Sankara's Sivananda Lahari.It is supposed to have been composed in Sri Kalhasthi.There too ,Sankara mentions kanappa nayanar as hunter..In another work called "Subrahmanya bhujangam" ,he mentions Valli as the hunters daughter.he definitely knew the local legends in TN.This is composed in Tiruchendur when he was supposed to be very sick and Murugan cured him. Most likely he was a Tamilian too since malayalam was probably not there in 8th century AD as a separate language? but strange things is that there is no reference to Adi Sankara in any of the Tamil works.The only reference of Adi Sankara is in some temple in Cambodia. So, this lead to another controversy.Some people claim that there was no Adi Shankara at all but he just a myth.Some people claim that there are multiple people with name shankara and later all got attributed to one Adi shankara( like avvaiyar/nakeerar story).i read one claim that Adi Sankara and Sampandhar were the same person!!!

There is a lot of controversy about some of sampandhar's words.I read a Tamil Christian scholar argue that sampandhar had used the word "karpazhipu" etc. and that has to be done on jains.she argued that sampandhar was advocating genocide and rape on Jain followers.
also, it seems that some king butchered 8000 Jain monks after sampandhar defeated them in debates.She attributed this behaviour of Sampandhar to him being a Vedic brahmin who was out to kill followers of non Vedic religions.Other scholars were saying that karpazhipu probably meant some other thing in those days.

Onnume puruyalai!!! instead of going into all controversies,we can try to follow the good teaching of sampandhar,manicavasagar,adi sankarar and leave out their controversial teachings if any. :D

[rajraj]

viggop: If you can, get a copy of Thevaram-muthaal thirumurai by Sambandhar. There are verses castigating Jainism. There was also a practice to execute Jains using 'kazhuvetral'. If I am not mistaken there was/is a festival in Madurai for that.
Some say that Thevaram verses were composed to arrest the onslaught of Jainism in ancient Tamilnadu. It was also set to music so that the common man could sing.
Those who interpreted Thevaram might have gone overboard in accusing Sambandhar of promoting genocide.
There was violence to protect the religions- saivism, jainism(samaNam) and budhdhism (boudhdham).
You are right! We should take the positive aspects of Thevaram.
I am sure Idiappam has more to say.

[viggop]

Yes rajraj. we have to take only the positive things from all these great philosophers to reach God.
rape and genocide is still going on in India and the world in name of religion.For e.g. Kashmir(attack on Hindus),Gujarat(attack on muslims),Bosnia(attack on muslims,Afghanistan(attacks on non muslims) etc.

Let us avoid all such hate and anger.it does not help us reach God at all.

[Ilavenil]

Manikkavasagaruma kadavul peyarai solli pirarai(jains) thunpuruththa sonaar? nambamudiyavilai.

[Idiappam]

No!

[viggop]

Ilavenil
I think gnanasampandhar and appar were in the forefront against Jainism.Appar was sometime a Jain before he reconverted back to Hinduism.Due to this,till his end,he had a feeling that he was impure because he abandoned Lord Shiva for sometime(when he was a Jain).By Manickavasagar's time,probably Jainism was already waning and it was no longer a threat to Hinduism.Once the Cholas became powerful,they defeated the kalabrar kings(Jain kings of Karnataka) and hinduism became powerful again in TN.

[viggop]

some questions
================

Why is thiruganansampandhar known as "AludaiPillai"?
Did Sundarar/any other nayanmar also debate and defeat Jains?
What about allwars?did they participate in debates against Jains/Shaivites?Does Nalayira Divya prabandham consist of any such information on debates?

[Idiappam]

Sundarar did make a few mentions here and there of the Jains (samanar or amanar).

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7.33.9[/tscii:8f5ecd887e]

Here, he ridicules the chants of the Jains as 'njamaNa njAnjaNa njANa njONa....' The Jains chanted Sanskrit or someting else?

[viggop]

Idiappam Sir
Please clarify my other questions too.

As I said earlier, we should only follow teachings of these philosophers which are good.We can ignore saying which do not suit our times.

India is now a secular country where people of all religions like hindus,jains,buddhists,christians,muslims,sikhs,pa rsis,jews can follow their religion.No one has any right to make fun of other people's religions or their beliefs.

[solomon]

Dear Vigipop,

"I refer to your asking about Thendir Karpazhikka-" as per A.S.Gnanasampandthan, highly regarded scholar, here it is "Thendir " and the reference is to their Educatiion Kalvinilai and raping. This has been explained many a times, Devakala and Deivanayagam, both anit Tamils, see my posting ibn Kural or I sugest a separate forum for that .

And killing of 8000- is another myth, we see names like Sahasranamam, Kodiarchanai, Latcharchanai etc., ; if in a village a big Prayer Yagna held and the places were called "ChathurVethi Mangalam" in same way Ennayiram gramam- and few Samana Scholars whom Sambandaar defeated from a village named that actally killed themselves, but the things are wrongly interpreted.

If you can invite Devakala or Alexander Harris we can discuss on Christianity also.
MosesMohammedSolomon.

[viggop]

Dear Solomon
Can you explain the "karpazhipu" in simpler english.I really want to know the true meaning.I'm finding it difficult to understand your english.

If the meaning is different,then we can be proud that great philosophers like gnanasampandhar are really Godly and it is we ordinary folks who misinterpret things.Is A.S.Gnanasampandthan, the person who comes in pattimanram's in Jaya TV?I heard he is a respected professor.

I do not agree with Alexander Harris/Deivanayagam etc when they say that all hindu religious works like devaram,divya prabandam was about Christ.I expect them to be secular and not cause hard feeling among people of my religion.I'll also respect their decision to follow their religion and will not condone anything which hurts their religios beliefs.simply put,i'll respect their religion and i expect them to respect mine.

[Idiappam]

Sir Viggops.

I thought you were asking about Saint Sambander use of the word 'karpazhippu' on the Jains. He did.

[viggop]

Idiappam Sir
I know gnanasampandhar did use the word "karpazhipu".I want to know in what sense he used the word? was that to spread hate on other religious people? or that word has some other meaning? Gnanasampandhar is someone on whom there are lot of stories that Lord Shiva/Goddess Parvathi helped him etc.Will such a person use words which ask for genocide on people who just have a different point of view? if the answer is yes,then as a Hindu,i'll feel bad about it.I do not like people getting angry because someone has a different point of view.

Also,
(1)Why is gnanasampandhar known as "aludaipillai"?
(2)What about allwars?did they participate in debates against Jains/Shaivites?Does Nalayira Divya prabandham consist of any such information on debates?

Please answer these questions when you have time.

[solomon]

The context in which The word used by Gnanasampanthanar was to cutoff the wrong education of Samanar.
Thendir Karpazhikka- Thendir Kalvinilai.
If a man has a name Sahasranamam- it means AyiramPeyar.

When Yagnas were conducted with lot of Devots and Kodiarchanai or Laksha or Kodi Vedic chanting done, the name of the area was called like ChathurVedimangalam etc., Again Ennaiyiram might be a name of Gramam, where a Prayer with 8000 Vedic Scholars did Chanting.

We do not have to go by how misinterpreters view it.
MosesMohammedSolomon

[viggop]

Thanks a lot Solomon. You can also post and clarify thiruvasagam for us when Ilavenil starts posting thiruvasagam verses.

[Ilavenil]

anbarukku anbanE yAvaiyumAy illaiyumAy
chOdhiyanE thunniruLE thOnRAp perumaiyanE
AdhiyanE andham naDuvAgi allAnE
Irththu ennai ATkoNDa en^dhai perumAnE
kUrththa mey nyAnaththAl koNDu uNarvAr thamgaruththil 75

nOkkariya nOkkE nuNukkariya nuN uNarvE
pOkkum varavum puNarvum ilAp puNNiyanE
kAkkum en kAvalanE kANbariya pEr oLiyE
ARRinba veLLamE aththA mikkAy ninRa
thORRach chuDar oLiyAy chollAdha nuN uNarvAy 80

Loving to loving ones ! Effulgent One, Who all things art,
And their negation too ! Great Master, whom no darkness gathers round !
First One, Thou'rt End and Midst, and art devoid of these !
Father, Lord, Who drew'st, and mad'st me Thine !
Eye of the minds that see by keenest glance of wisdom true, (75)
Hard to be eyed ! Subtle understanding, none can scrutinize !
Holy ! Who comest not, nor goest, nor mingling liv'st !
Guardian who guardest us ! Great Light whom none can see !
Flood of delight ! Father ! Light of all passing splendours
That appear ! Unutterably subtle Intellect ! (80)

[Idiappam]

adutha irru varigal theriyavilai.

I don't understand! Entha Varigal??

[karthik_sa2]

the clear meaning of thiruvasagam can b understood if u hear illayrajas symphony oratorio in thiruvasakam.pls buy original cd's and listen to them

[Ilavenil]

adutha irru varigal theriyavilai.

I don't understand! Entha Varigal??

Looks like I posted the wrong passage. I will re-type it. Sorry about that. :roll:

[Ilavenil]

the clear meaning of thiruvasagam can b understood if u hear illayrajas symphony oratorio in thiruvasakam.pls buy original cd's and listen to them

Are you sure it has meaning of thiruvasagam too or is it just the verses?

[poovizi]

Thiruvasagam simpony csset composed by illayaraja is so demand in chennai market.
so hurry up,

[Ilavenil]

anbarukku anbanE yAvaiyumAy illaiyumAy
chOdhiyanE thunniruLE thOnRAp perumaiyanE
AdhiyanE andham naDuvAgi allAnE
Irththu ennai ATkoNDa en^dhai perumAnE
kUrththa mey nyAnaththAl koNDu uNarvAr thamgaruththil 75


Unnidam anbai irrukkum adiyavarukku anbane, yellavatrillum nee irrukirai, illavatrillum nee irrukirai, jothipol vellichchamanamavane, irrul pondravae, thotram illatha perumai undaiyavanae, muthalumai, mudivumai, naduvumai, illathavanumanavane, yennai un pakkam eerthukonda yennudaya perumaane, koormaiyanam unmaiyana arivaal unarnthavar tham karuthil

[Ilavenil]

mARRamAy vaiyagaththin vevvERE vandhu aRivAm
thERRanE thERRath theLivE en chindhanai uL
URRAna uNNAr amudhE uDaiyAnE
vERRu vigAra viDakku uDambin uLgiDappa
ARREn em aiyA aranE O enRu enRu 85

pORRip pugazndhirundhu poygeTTu mey AnAr
mITTu iNgu vandhu vinaippiRavi chArAmE
kaLLap pulakkurambaik kaTTu azikka vallAnE
naL iruLil naTTam payinRu ADum nAdhanE
thillai uL kUththanE thenbANDi nATTAnE 90

allal piRavi aRuppAnE O enRu
chollaRku ariyAnaich chollith thiruvaDikkIz
cholliya pATTin poruL uNarndhu cholluvAr
chelvar chivaburaththin uLLAr chivan aDikkIzp
pallOrum Eththap paNindhu. 95

thiruchchiRRambalam

Translation by G.U.Pope:
Of all that in this world diverse pronounced as truth
Is known, Thou art the knowledge sure ! Full certitude !
Precious ambrosia, fountain welling up within ! My Owner Thou !

PASSIONATE INVOCATION
I can't endure, our Guru, in this changing straitened frame to 'bide.
Aran! All Thy saints made true invoke Thee, (85)
Worshipping abide, and praising Thee, from falsehood freed,
Hither return no more ! That deeds and birth cling not,
To sever bonds of this deceitful sensuous frame the might is Thine !
Lord who dost dance, trampling dense darkness down !
Dancer in Thillai ! Dweller in the Southern PAndi land ! (90)
Thou Who dost cut off evil birth ! - Adoring ever, Thee they name,
Whom words declare not; then 'NEATH THY SACRED FEET
THEY LEARN THE MEANING OF THEIR SONG. The blessed ones
In Civan's town who dwell, - full many a one, - beneath
The feet of Civan, lowly bending utter praise. (95)

[Idiappam]

Hi Ilavenil,

Thank you! Nice to see your Thiruvasagam up again, to read and refer. Now that we have seen the first chapter. Please continue to the next! :D

[viggop]

Hi SOlomon
You clarified the alternate meanings of "karpazhipu" used by gnanasampandhar and i was satisfied with that.Please allow Ilavenil to continue her good work on posting more thiruvasagam verses.

[Ilavenil]

2. kIrththith thiru agaval

thillai mUdhUr ADiya thiruvaDi
pal uyir ellAm payinRanan Agi
eNil palguNam ezilbeRa viLaNgi
maNNum viNNum vAnOr ulagum
thunniya kalvi thORRiyum aziththum 5

ennuDai iruLai ERaththurandhum
aDiyAr uLLaththu anbu mIdhUrak
kuDiyAk koNDa koLgaiyum chiRappum
mannum mAmalai magEndhiram adhanil
chonna Agamam thORRuviththu aruLiyum 10

kallA Taththuk kalandhu inidhu aruLi
n^allA LODu nayappuRavu eydhiyum
panychap paLLiyil pAlmozi thannoDum
enychAdhu INDum inaruL viLaiththum
kirAdha vEDamoDu kinychuga vAyavaL 15

virAvu koNgai naldhaDam paDindhum
kEvEDar Agik keLiRadhu paDuththum
mAvETTu Agiya Agamam vANgiyum
maRRavai thammai magEndhiraththu irundhu
uRRa aim mugaNgaLAL paNiththu aruLiyum 20

nandham pADiyil nAn maRaiyOnAy
andhamil AriyanAy amarndhu aruLiyum
vERu vERu uruvum vERuvERu iyaRkaiyum
nURu nu|Ru Ayiram iyalbinadhu Agi
ERu uDai Ichan ippuvaniyai uyyak 25

[Ilavenil]

2. kIrththith thiru agaval

thillai mUdhUr ADiya thiruvaDi
pal uyir ellAm payinRanan Agi
eNil palguNam ezilbeRa viLaNgi
maNNum viNNum vAnOr ulagum
thunniya kalvi thORRiyum aziththum 5

ennuDai iruLai ERaththurandhum
aDiyAr uLLaththu anbu mIdhUrak
kuDiyAk koNDa koLgaiyum chiRappum
mannum mAmalai magEndhiram adhanil
chonna Agamam thORRuviththu aruLiyum 10

kallA Taththuk kalandhu inidhu aruLi
n^allA LODu nayappuRavu eydhiyum
panychap paLLiyil pAlmozi thannoDum
enychAdhu INDum inaruL viLaiththum
kirAdha vEDamoDu kinychuga vAyavaL 15

virAvu koNgai naldhaDam paDindhum
kEvEDar Agik keLiRadhu paDuththum
mAvETTu Agiya Agamam vANgiyum
maRRavai thammai magEndhiraththu irundhu
uRRa aim mugaNgaLAL paNiththu aruLiyum 20

nandham pADiyil nAn maRaiyOnAy
andhamil AriyanAy amarndhu aruLiyum
vERu vERu uruvum vERuvERu iyaRkaiyum
nURu nu|Ru Ayiram iyalbinadhu Agi
ERu uDai Ichan ippuvaniyai uyyak 25

G.U. Pope

he sacred foot that danced in Tillai's city old
Is His, Who in all varied lives has energized;
Revealed in beauty of innumerous, varied qualities;
In earth, in sky, and in celestial worlds.
All ordered lore hath He revealed, and He made void. (5)
My darkness hath He driven for aye far off.
Within His servants' inmost soul that love o'erflows
He dwells, - His glory and His choice.
On great MahEndra's biding hill
In grace He caused the uttered Agamas appear. (10)
He came with the good goddess,
Pleasant and gracious, mingling with men at KallAdam.
With her whose words are milk in the 'fivefold couch,'
He caused sweet grace, that unfailing accumulates, to grow.
In guise of a woodman, of her whose lips are crimson, (15)
He sank in the lovely expanse of the swelling breast.
Becoming a fisherman He caught the shark.
And he received the Agamas, a rich spoil.
Moreover, on MahEndra seated, the self-same Agamas
From His five mouths He graciously spake forth. (20)
In our abode a BrAhman He became,
And as a deathless Guru dwelt in grace.
Assuming diverse forms, and diverse habitudes,
As hundreds of hundreds of thousands of natures,
I Can, Lord of the bull, that the world might be saved, - (25)

[viggop]

Thiruvasagam URAI:-
http://ta.wikibooks.org/wiki/Thiruvasakam

[Uthappam]

Hi SOlomon
You clarified the alternate meanings of "karpazhipu" used by gnanasampandhar and i was satisfied with that.Please allow Ilavenil to continue her good work on posting more thiruvasagam verses.

karpu means kalvi lah, Idiappam should know that, but not telling/

[Idiappam]

Let me get the Sambandar Thevaram and comment. Anyway, kaRpu means kalvi (learning, knowledge) too.

kal ->kaR as in
kalvi -> kaRRal -> kaRkai -> kaRpu.

[shaivam.org]

In thiruvAsakam, thiruvempAvai and thiuppaLLiyezuchi are provided with explanation at http://www.shaivam.org/siddhanta/thivempalli_t.htm

Hope it would be useful for the followers of this topic.