Origin of Hindi and Urdu

[dr#]

There have been lots of threads about the rights or wrongs of hindi as a national language. Can anyone shed some light on how hindi evolved and tell us more about its supposed deccan origins?

also how different is urdu from hindi?

thanks

[HindustaniLadka]

Urdu is basically Hindi written in Farsi script. Urdu also borrows a lot of words from Farsi, but it sounds the same as Hindi when spoken.

[visu]

I have heard the current form of hindi(khadriboli) developed in delhi area around 500 yrs back. Actually it arose out of need for comminucation between invading moguls and local hindus. Initially it was dubbed as "Camp Language"
Later the hindus gave it sanskrit flavour and called HINDI.
Muslims gave it perso-arabic flavour and called it URDU.

I read the above fact in Malayala Manorama year book many years back.

[dr#]

actually i've read that in malayala manorama as well, which is why all this talk about deccan influence is news to me.

[HindustaniLadka]

I have read in many books taht Hindi actually originated in the Deccan area, not in Delhi.

[Mad Max]

Urdu was created by Akbar. He wanted to unite all of India's religions and create a new religion called din-ilahi. For this new religion, he wanted to create a new language. So he took the Hindi language and mixed a few arabic words in it and adopted Arabic as the script and created the Urdu language. I think Urdu is 99% Hindi+1% Arabic written in arabic script. I am not sure of this, but I think most of the muslims who speak Urdu are followers of din-ilahi, which is a mix of Hinduism, Sikhism & islam.

[lordstanher]

Urdu was created by Akbar. He wanted to unite all of India's religions and create a new religion called din-ilahi. For this new religion, he wanted to create a new language. So he took the Hindi language and mixed a few arabic words in it and adopted Arabic as the script and created the Urdu language. I think Urdu is 99% Hindi+1% Arabic written in arabic script. I am not sure of this, but I think most of the muslims who speak Urdu are followers of din-ilahi, which is a mix of Hinduism, Sikhism & islam.

I rem. learning in history class at school tat Urdu was a mixture of Hindi+Kurdish(a dialect spoken in Iraq, the counting of nos. in this lingo is same as in Hindi)+Persian.......but neways, history, which is nevertheless a mystery, is known to hav more than 1 version..... :wink: if u let ur curiosity overcome u, u'll get too embedded inside it!

[lordstanher]

Initially it was dubbed as "Camp Language".

Hey yeaa.....tat rings a bell....I just rem'd. learning tat too, in school, many yrs ago! Feels so exciting to walk down memory lane :)

[visu]

I have read in many books taht Hindi actually originated in the Deccan area, not in Delhi.

No mate! That doesn't make sense. Hndi is closer to north indian languages like haryanvi nepali bengali not deccan languages. Under Hyderbad Nawab Hindustani got a presence in the area that's all. Actually its called Deccani. You could take that as a Dialect. Remember Bhojpuri(Bihar) is also lingustically counted as Hindi. I would say Hindi is a collection of various Dialects.

[lordstanher]

Initially it was dubbed as "Camp Language".

Hey yeaa.....tat rings a bell....I just rem'd. learning tat too, in school, many yrs ago! Feels so exciting to walk down memory lane :)

Heyyyyyyyy no waitaminit!! I just rem'd- twas URDU tat was invented as 'Camp lang.'......not Hindi! Good to refresh onez memory once in a while :D

[dr#]

i heard from someone when i was a kid that urdu differs from hindi by a matter of one or two dozen words......is that true or just bs?

[HindustaniLadka]

I think it is true. I asked some of my Pakistani friends about it and they all said that the only idfference was some vocabulary. Even when you hear someone speaking Urdu and Hindi side by side, it is very difficult to notice any major differences in the spoken language.

[aravindhan]

Actually, the question can only be answered if you separate the written and spoken languages.

- Spoken Hindi and spoken Urdu are virtually indistinguishable - very often, you can't tell which language someone is speaking unless you pay very close attention. However, written Hindi and written Urdu are very different. You have to learn each separately - you can't just know Hindi, learn the nastaliq script and hope to understand Urdu. I can read both, so I know what I'm talking about. Written Urdu is very Arabised, not only in vocabulary but also in grammar. For many words, the plurals are supposed to be formed not by adding "-en" or "-on" as we do in the spoken language, but by modifying the stem as is done in Arabic. So, for example, the plural of "labz" (word) is "alfaz", of "khwatoon" (woman) is "Khawateen", and so on.

- This language developed in north India. The Prakrts spoken in the Indo-Gangetic region developed into Apabrahmsa, which developed into a set of spoken dialects (Khariboli, Brajbhasha, Awadhi, etc.) from which the spoken language that is modern Hindi-Urdu evolved. A number of poems and songs were written in the various dialects, particularly Brajbhasha and Awadhi, during the mediaeval period. Amir Khusro wrote poetry in the speech of the Delhi-area, which he called "Hindavi".

- A version of this language was carried to the kingdoms of the Deccan. There it was refined and polished into a written literary form called Dakkni. Both written Hindi and written Urdu have evolved from Dakkni. To this extent, we can say that written Hindi evolved in the Deccan (although, obviously, spoken Hindi evolved in the Gangetic valley).

- Mughal poets began experimenting with using the language they used for everyday conversation to write their poetry. They were much inspired by Dakkni, and they appear to have used it as the base for their poetry after modifying it to reflect the verb forms used in the Delhi area. Mir-Taqi-Mir's poetry is particularly notable for its use of spoken forms and the spoken idiom. This new written form had a number of names, including Hindvi, Dehlavi, Rekhti and Urdu.

- As the Mughal empire declined, the written language of poetry became more and more Persianised and artificial. Some researchers have speculated that this was because the aristocracy were all too conscious of the decay that was going on around them, and their language and customs therefore became more and more ostentatious and persianate (as beautifully captured in Shatranj ka Khiladi). This Persianised language has evolved into modern Urdu.

- One author, Bharatendu Harishchandra, led a movement to combat the increasing persianisation. Bharatendu Harishchandra identified a scale of language, from extremely Persianised to extremely Sanskritised. In the middle was the speech of educated people in the towns of eastern UP which, he said, should be the standard on which he based the written language. He himself wrote a number of works in this standard. It's a pity that he's not read nowadays - his language is simply amazing. Modern Hindi is largely based on the written language which Bharatendu Harishchandra developed.

- The development of new written languages did not affect the way people spoke. So although written Hindi and Urdu continued to diverge through the rest of the 19th and 20th centuries, the spoken language stayed the same.

- In the middle of the 20th century, a decision was taken to sanskritise written Hindi, rather than following the more syncretic Hindustani tradition. This has helped to push Hindi further away both from Urdu and the spoken language (not to mention what Bharatendu Harischandra had wanted it to be). Similarly, written Urdu has been unbelievably Arabized in the latter half of the 20th century, which has pushed it away from both written Hindi and the spoken language.

A good outline of the history of Hindi and Urdu is Amrit Rai's "A House Divided". It's not an unbiased book - he is a partisan of a reunited common written standard - but it's nonetheless a very good summary of the history of the languages.

[oohlala]

Nice post Aravindhan.

Yeah spoken Hindi and Urdu are simillar. When i was in college there was a guy from Jammu and during intro on the 1st day he said that he know only Urdu and English(he was speaking in hindi according to us). when the prof asked him wat he was speaking, he said that he's speaking Urdu. :D

[HindustaniLadka]

So...which one came first, Hindi or Urdu?

[Idiappam]

So...which one came first, the egg or the chicken?

[lordstanher]

So...which one came first, the egg or the chicken?

Can toss a coin & decide lah! :wink: :lol:

[Crab]

Knock Knock,

I read online that the language we hear in Bollywood films is actually Hindustani not Hindi!

Is that true?

:?:

[Crab]

Urdu speakers in India must not be confused with the Urdu speakers in Pakistan.

Most of the Pakistani Urdu speakers ethnically belong to one race - Punjabi. Their sharp facial bone structure and light complexion easily gives away their race.

However, most of the Indian Urdu speakers ethnically don't belong to any single dominant race. You can find Punjabis, Pashtuns, Sindhis, Bengalis, Kashmiris, Malayalees and even scheduled people in India who speak Urdu. The differing facial bone structures (sharp to oval) and complexions (light to dark) are a living evidence.

:P

[HindustaniLadka]

"Punjabis, Pashtuns, Sindhis, Bengalis, Kashmiris, Malayalees"

NONE OF THESE ARE RACES, THEY ARE ALL LANGUAGES. THERE IS ONLY ONE RACE IN SOUTH ASIA. STOP MAKING UP GARBAGE AND STOP TRYING TO SPREAD HATRED...

[Surya]

I wonder why the mods have not taken out crap's post since it scraps of the AIT. :roll: How is it when we say something about the AIT it gets erased? :?

[HindustaniLadka]

Urdu speakers in India must not be confused with the Urdu speakers in Pakistan.

Most of the Pakistani Urdu speakers ethnically belong to one race - Punjabi. Their sharp facial bone structure and light complexion easily gives away their race.

However, most of the Indian Urdu speakers ethnically don't belong to any single dominant race. You can find Punjabis, Pashtuns, Sindhis, Bengalis, Kashmiris, Malayalees and even scheduled people in India who speak Urdu. The differing facial bone structures (sharp to oval) and complexions (light to dark) are a living evidence.

:P



Seriously, if you think people are a different race because htey speak a different language...you must also beleive that all the black Africans in Africa are made up of thousands of different races...since there are thousands of tribes all over Africa that speak very different languages from each other...

[napolims445]

haha...haha...MOD

[Devarishii]

[Idiappam]

Yes, Devarishii! Sometimes it is better if you say nothing! :D

[sundararaj]

I heard that both Urdu and Hindi are developed basically as a language for controlling elephants and Horses !!

[Rohit]

Normally; most people with average mental capacity hold language as nothing more than just a communication medium, which is true, only when it comes to the use of a language. But such perception is absolutely false when it comes to grasp the exact developmental and evolutionary course of the language. The notion, that language is nothing more than just a medium of communication, completely falls over when one closely examines the whole evolutionary process involved in the development of a language.

The level of evolution of a language directly reflects the level of cognitive development of the people who developed that particular language.

Here is some more light on the state of affairs between the cognitive endowments of the societies and the development of their languages:

Society, Culture, Nation and such other words, encapsulate the concept of Civilisation, which consequently entails people or public as a whole.

Public broadly divides into two groups: - Intellectuals and General Public or masses

The Intellectual Group further divides into two governing categories: - Honest and Corrupt

Similarly, the General Public also divides into two predominant categories: - Aware and Impetuous

Though, it is normal to expect Intellectuals and General Public somewhere in the middle of the pertinent categories, the following analytical discussion is based on the undiluted, predominant categories listed above.

For a civilisation to come into being and develop, interaction between the intellectuals and general public, no matter how significant or insignificant it may be, is inevitable and this is a fundamental ground upon which the formation of any society can be based. Based on the above four categories of human conducts, the following four sets of social interaction process that can take place among the people can be identified.

Intellectuals -- General Public
1) Honest -- Aware
2) Honest -- Impetuous
3) Corrupt -- Aware
4) Corrupt -- Impetuous

The quality of such interaction may change over time. Nonetheless, it is essentially a very slow process and it takes several generations for a society to identify requisite changes for improvements and advancement in the state of affairs of language development, which is essentially achieved by the quality of the operative feedback loops.

The process begins with some sort of communication between the people. In order to establish any communication, the invention and use of languages was only natural and logical course. For a language to be comprehensible and intelligible to all people involved, the development and grasp of various concepts that could provide means for common mental representations of people, places, objects, events, situations, activities; and other concrete and abstracts terms are absolutely essential. Thus, concepts form the basic building blocks of human thoughts and then become the foundation of mental categories, which people use for classification, in evaluating information, in making decisions and then act accordingly. This way, concepts get firmly planted in language and in turn the entire process forms a strong psychological bond between concept formation and evolution of the language.

Thus:

- The power of language reflects people’s ability to form clear and strong concepts, which in turn depends on the quality of interaction process that is operative among the group of people at a given period of time-frame.

- The level of evolution of language directly reflects the quality of cognitive endowments of the society that speaks that language.

- Language forms the fundamental base of human cognitive process, which develops and evolves over generations and centuries depending on the existing communicable thoughts and knowledge.

- The level of evolution of language directly reflects the level of progress and advancement of the society.

- The level of evolution of language directly reflects the quality of interaction among the various members of the society in question.

The following are the representative examples of the developmental courses of four societies based upon the evolution of their languages

1) Honest -- Aware

Concepts: - Clear
Language: - Evolved
Cognitive Process: - Actualising
Society: - Developed
Feedback: - Generative

2) Honest -- Impetuous

Concepts: - Cogent
Language: - Developed
Cognitive Process: - Effective
Society: - Latent
Feedback: - Restorative

3) Corrupt -- Aware

Concepts: - Vague
Language: - Deceptive
Cognitive Process: - Pretentious
Society: - Crippled
Feedback: - Restorative

4) Corrupt -- Impetuous

Concepts: - Weak
Language: - Slender
Cognitive Process: - Obscured
Society: - Backward
Feedback: - Degenerative

It should not put too much of a strain on the peoples' minds wanting to conclude where both of these languages; in fact, any of the 26 or so Indian languages stand, not in terms of the number of their speakers, but in terms of their abilities to serve the demands and sophistication required in the communication needs of today and future.

:D :) :thumbsup:

[SRS]

The level of evolution of language directly reflects the quality of cognitive endowments of the society that speaks that language.

So, how relevant is Sanskrit today? Huet replies: "How relevant is Internet in this Kali Yuga? Let us not be too arrogant with technology, please."

"Relevance of something depends upon its usefulness. Sanskrit is rich with applicable information," explains Sudhatma. "Sanskrit covers almost all practical subjects, whether it is tool manufacturing, medicine preparation or astronomical research."

Jiten, who holds a degree in computer science, points to the potential of Sanskrit as the most advanced computer language: "NASA and many research firms have been looking at it as a possible computer language since its syntax is perfect and leaves little room for error."

"Sanskrit is like a timeless work by a great artist. Present day regional languages borrow more than 80 per cent words from Sanskrit. It is significant in this Internet age, just as it was useful earlier," adds Yelagalawadi.

http://www.rediff.com/netguide/2003/jul/24sanskrit.htm

[Rohit]

A language becomes dead when the quality of cognitive endowments of the people that speaks that language degenerates, rendering them incapable of forming new and advanced concepts, which eventually drives the language to its extinction.

A language becomes dead when it ceases to evolve; for it becomes incapable of remaining the base of human cognitive process and it is no longer useful in communicating existing communicable thoughts and knowledge.

A language becomes dead when it becomes incapable of serving the communication needs of the time.

A language becomes dead when it becomes useless in the progress and advancement of the society.

A language becomes extinct when interaction in that language ceases.

:D :) :thumbsup:

[SRS]

According to G.H. Hardy, renowned British mathematician, most of theoretical mathematics has no application or usefulness to the "real world." Nevertheless, this does not decrease the "value" of theoretical mathematics. As Hardy states, mathematics provides its own justification. Those who assign sweeping "value" judgements to an entire field, for example, mathematics or linguistics, usually do not have deep familiarity with the subject matter of which they speak, rather, their knowledge is limited to a certain portion of the subject matter. For example, an engineer may use laplace transforms in the day-to-day work by referring to a standard table, but only a professional mathematician will take the time to derive the transform and justifiy the properties of the transform using an axiomatic scheme. Very clearly, one can see the difference in insight. As well as the relative meaning of the term "useful."


"It is undeniable that a good deal of elementary mathematics-- and I use the word 'elementary' in the sense in which professional mathematicians use it, in which it includes, for example, a fair working knowledge of the differential and integral calculus) has considerable practical utility. These parts of mathematics are, on the whole, rather dull; they are the parts which have the least aesthetic value. The 'real' mathematics of the 'real' mathematicians, the mathematics of Fermat and Euler and Gauss and Abel and Riemann, is almost wholly 'useless'(and this is as true of 'applied' as of 'pure' mathematics. It is not possible to justify the life of any genuine professional mathematician on the ground of the 'utility' of his work."

- A Mathematician's Apology, by G. H. Hardy

[Rohit]

Here, language is meant as natural language and not as artificial languages used for software development for, or programming of, computers and robots or AI that may not develop autonomous thinking capacity of their own in a foreseeable future.

A language must carry social dimensions; and likewise, there must exist linguistic dimensions of society too.

A language can serve as a medium of communication, only if it is spoken and/or written by society.

A language must be capable of communication of thoughts and experiences through structural representation of conceptual terms having cognitive dimensions and/or orientations.

A language should be capable of serving as a medium of communication, both for vocal and/or written instructions as well as in education in general.

When a language loses its social dimensions, and at the same time, the linguistic dimensions of society towards the language no longer exist, the language degenerates, becomes dead and eventually goes extinct.

Those who suffer from cognitive degeneration, which renders them incapable of grasping the overall process involved in language development and its evolution as briefly described earlier, invariably use false analogies and dissonance ridden fallacies to maintain the false value of the dead and/or extinct languages.

Such approach avoidance conflicts are frequently observed in those dull novices who are inculcated to assimilate almost all forms of fallacies and blunders, since they severely lacked in autonomous thinking ability to grasp the essentials and correlates of situations. And therefore, they may never realise the fact that they indiscriminately keep committing fallacies and blunders while arguing without having any real evidence in support even when the situation necessarily requires some strong ones.

Nonetheless, there is no stronger evidence of the death of a language than the dead language itself.

:D :) :thumbsup:

[SRS]

Language does not reflect a society's cognitive development, nor the cognitive development of a human being, except in a limited evolutionary sense. Most infants learn to speak between the ages of 1 and 5. But how many are capable of manipulating an algebraic equation between the ages of 1 and 5? Anyone who has done programming understands that language is merely syntax; this syntax can be grasped merely through countless repetitions until a certain precision is achieved. More familiarity with the conventions of the language syntax will result in greater precision and greater variations of the code - example being, one will proceed from loops to arrays and classes. There is very little in the way of "cognitive development" required for this; this is why India is turning out millions of programmers annually and software companies like IBM/Microsoft are hiring these Indian graduates over graduates from Western universities, to cut labor costs. In fact, a baby learns to speak much the same way a programmer learns to program - only in the case of the baby, there is much greater flexibility; there is not such a great need to be "precise."

Now, I have said language is merely syntax. However, the structure underlying that language may require enormous amounts of mental ability to grasp. Computer science is a prime example, its underlying algorithms being purely mathematical. So anyone can learn to program, very few in fact will be able to grasp the underlying mathematical axiomatic scheme of their code.

The cognitive development of a society should be judged by the age of that society. In this scheme, India and China are the most developed societies. This makes more sense, as one can trace the origin of all basic maths, and even the roots of advanced maths, not to mention the origin of science (of which medicine is an application) to these two societies. Example being, one will find the first calendar, the first instance of a successful surgery, the origin of algebra and the real number system, the origin of astronomy, the earliest literatures, and the earliest instances of advanced technology and architecture, to be traceable to these two societies. Mathematics is the highest form of cognitive ability a human being can possess; it is no accident then that India and China have made great contributions in this direction.

[Rohit]

There is a fundamental difference between linguists and language professors using cellular phones and the scientists and engineers developing and designing cellular networks and phones those work and can be used by consumers.

There is a fundamental difference between scientists, mathematicians, engineers and other professional experts using a particular language and the linguists, language professors and cognitive scientists who are experts in analysing the state of affairs and psychology of languages.

Though interacting, but in each of the above two cases, the two situations are entirely different and primarily unrelated, as they are regarding the expertise in two entirely different fields, which may eventually aid each other in their progress, forming a feedback loop.

Similarly, there is a fundamental difference between a child learning to speak an already existing language and a society developing a language, maintaining it and keeping it alive for future generations as a medium of communication as well as the means of cognition transfers.

However, the ability of a child to learn and speak the language taught by his/her parents at home and/or teachers at school in itself is an evidence of cerebral endowment of the child. While a family dog or cat may have learnt the meaning of a few basic commands given in a particular language, they will never be able to learn and speak the language of the house in their entire lives. The reason is simple, biologically dogs and cats do not posses the required cerebral endowments to learn and speak human languages. For them, the question of developing a structured language, maintaining it and keeping it alive for future generations as a medium of communication as well as the means of cognition transfer may never arise.

Therefore, a child learning to speak a language is a first major step in the journey of his/her cognitive development, which is initiated by his/her parents or guardians using a language they learnt from their parents or guardians. The level of success in the rest of the child's cognitive journey would depend on the availability of valid information and knowledge at that time and in that language, combined with the cerebral endowment of the child to acquire further new and advanced knowledge as he/she grows up. No cognition survives unless it is transferred to, or exchanged with, family members, friends, colleagues and/or other members of society, the same way the past generations did, forming a feedback loop, which is entirely of different nature than the two illustrated and mentioned above.

Thus, it is the succession of cognition transfers that forms the foundation of cognitive development of a child; and all cognition transfers necessarily depend on the level of evolution of the language being used at the time, which itself depends on the cognitive and cerebral endowments of the past generations and the level of evolution of the language being used at that time.

A fully grown-up human may have a priory knowledge of 5 + 7 = 12, but he/she may entirely lack the knowledge or ability to solve an algebraic equation, which a child of 12 or less may well be equipped to solve it simply because he/she learnt it at school. This is a clear example of cognition transfer, which is only possible through a structured language. More involved and advanced mathematical treatments, scientific works and other intellectually demanding professions will require advanced level of conceptual grasps that can be conceptualised and/or symbolised and then expressed for normal usage as well as for formal cognition transfers, which requires a language that is evolved enough to do just that. If the language is not evolved enough to serve that need, further refinement of the language is warranted. The society that does precisely that, reflects the cognitive and cerebral endowments of the society.

However, the switching of a language to the one with rich vocabulary and in which more valid information and knowledge are available and that which aids in enhancing and acquiring new and advanced knowledge may play a major role in shifting the course of cognitive development of a society, as English did for the past generations of India, it currently does for the present generations and it may continue to serve that need for the future generations too, killing most Indian languages over the time.

Perhaps, one more effort to understand and grasp the following may help to come out of the vicious spiral of false analogies, heavy reliance on fallacies and blunders.


Normally; most people with average mental capacity hold language as nothing more than just a medium communication, which is true, only when it comes to the use of a language. But such perception is absolutely false when it comes to grasp the exact developmental and evolutionary course of the language. The notion, that language is nothing more than just a medium of communication, completely falls over when one closely examines the whole evolutionary process involved in the development of a language.

The level of evolution of a language directly reflects the level of cognitive development of the people who developed that particular language.

Here is some more light on the state of affairs between the cognitive endowments of the societies and the development of their languages:

Society, Culture, Nation and such other words, encapsulate the concept of Civilisation, which consequently entails people or public as a whole.

Public broadly divides into two groups: - Intellectuals and General Public or masses

The Intellectual Group further divides into two governing categories: - Honest and Corrupt

Similarly, the General Public also divides into two predominant categories: - Aware and Impetuous

Though, it is normal to expect Intellectuals and General Public somewhere in the middle of the pertinent categories, the following analytical discussion is based on the undiluted, predominant categories listed above.

For a civilisation to come into being and develop, interaction between the intellectuals and general public, no matter how significant or insignificant it may be, is inevitable and this is a fundamental ground upon which the formation of any society can be based. Based on the above four categories of human conducts, the following four sets of social interaction process that can take place among the people can be identified.

Intellectuals -- General Public
1) Honest -- Aware
2) Honest -- Impetuous
3) Corrupt -- Aware
4) Corrupt -- Impetuous

The quality of such interaction may change over time. Nonetheless, it is essentially a very slow process and it takes several generations for a society to identify requisite changes for improvements and advancement in the state of affairs of language development, which is essentially achieved by the quality of the operative feedback loops.

The process begins with some sort of communication between the people. In order to establish any communication, the invention and use of languages was only natural and logical course. For a language to be comprehensible and intelligible to all people involved, the development and grasp of various concepts that could provide means for common mental representations of people, places, objects, events, situations, activities; and other concrete and abstracts terms are absolutely essential. Thus, concepts form the basic building blocks of human thoughts and then become the foundation of mental categories, which people use for classification, in evaluating information, in making decisions and then act accordingly. This way, concepts get firmly planted in language and in turn the entire process forms a strong psychological bond between concept formation and evolution of the language.

Thus:

- The power of language reflects people’s ability to form clear and strong concepts, which in turn depends on the quality of interaction process that is operative among the group of people at a given period of time-frame.

- The level of evolution of language directly reflects the quality of cognitive endowments of the society that speaks that language.

- Language forms the fundamental base of human cognitive process, which develops and evolves over generations and centuries depending on the existing communicable thoughts and knowledge.

- The level of evolution of language directly reflects the level of progress and advancement of the society.

- The level of evolution of language directly reflects the quality of interaction among the various members of the society in question.

The following are the representative examples of the developmental courses of four societies based upon the evolution of their languages

1) Honest -- Aware

Concepts: - Clear
Language: - Evolved
Cognitive Process: - Actualising
Society: - Developed
Feedback: - Generative

2) Honest -- Impetuous

Concepts: - Cogent
Language: - Developed
Cognitive Process: - Effective
Society: - Latent
Feedback: - Restorative

3) Corrupt -- Aware

Concepts: - Vague
Language: - Deceptive
Cognitive Process: - Pretentious
Society: - Crippled
Feedback: - Restorative

4) Corrupt -- Impetuous

Concepts: - Weak
Language: - Slender
Cognitive Process: - Obscured
Society: - Backward
Feedback: - Degenerative

It should not put too much of a strain on the peoples' minds wanting to conclude where both of these languages; in fact, any of the 26 or so Indian languages stand, not in terms of the number of their speakers, but in terms of their abilities to serve the demands and sophistication required in the communication needs of today and future.
In nutshell, the information and knowledge generated by the distant past generations, when utilised, enhanced, refined and added to by the cerebral endowments of the past generations, generating information and knowledge that essentially reflected the cognitive endowments of the past generations, which became the foundation of cognitive development for present generations.

Similarly, the information and knowledge generated by present generations, when utilised, enhanced, refined and added to by the cerebral endowments of future generations, generating information and knowledge that would essentially reflect the cognitive endowments of future generations, which would become the foundation of cognitive development for the generations of remote future.

The mechanism by which such transfers of refined, new and advanced cognition can take place is through a language that evolves with time and keeps pace with the changing communication demands and/or needs of the time.

An utter absence of such a language reflects the prevalent lack and/or heedless suppression of cognitive and cerebral endowments of society.

:D :) :thumbsup:

[Rohit]

I am getting terribly frightened when I read some of the most cognitively degenerated, ignorant, distorted, disoriented and pretentious posts about the past Indian achievements in science, technology and mathematics, when there have been no real evidences of recognised cognitive outgrowth of Indians in any of the stated fields. Except a few isolated cases.

In order to embrace even the spur of an idea of achievements of a society in any field, the existence of some real evidences of the true cognitive developmental state of the society is absolutely necessary. And the true developmental state of any society gets reflected in its sustained ability in timely realising of intrusions of undesired and corrupting binding factors in the system that would certainly drag the growth of entire society.

On the contrary,

There is not a single credible reason why Indians could not apply the wealth of the claimed Indian knowledge in advancing the human development of Indian people when the West has evidently done so.

The evolution of all Indian languages remained ceased for centuries and have no chance of any recovery.

Today, Indians have no choice but to keep relying on English language for their education and receiving recognised professional qualifications.

Today, India anxiously looks towards the West for new research works and technologies.

Today, India is heavily dependent on the literature in English language for information and knowledge in those advanced fields.

Today, India is heavily dependent on English language for acquiring new and advanced knowledge in almost all advanced fields.

India is heavily dependent on Russian and other foreign technologies for its military and defence equipment needs.

India is heavily dependent on foreign technologies for its needs of commercial, scientific, engineering, domestic and household gears.

Most educated and modern Indians have abandoned their original Indian way of life and happily adopted the western way of life.

There are so many logical and obvious questions that have more negative answers than they have positive. Yet there exists an abundance of Indian imbeciles who sincerely believe in those fabricated and twisted allegories, fallacies and blunders, constructed by a few heedless charlatans.

But when one asks these charlatans, why couldn't we Indians apply this knowledge for our own development? In reply, they become absolutely mute.

Perhaps the entire Indian population was suffering from sever Amnesia or Alzheimer's disease; and as a result, no Indian could remember the mathematics, science and technologies, invented by the past Indian generations; and transfer the cognition to the successive generations.

Maybe the ancient Indians had serious problems in documenting their works; but then, it generates serious disparity, as no one could ever claim anything about it.

Furthermore; how come the whole of India and her massive population of hundreds of millions of Indians became slaves to a few foreign invaders even when Indians were 2000:1 strong against the invaders?

So, no amount of false rationalisation could ever account for such dismal and opprobrious records of Indian impetuousness.

Only a complete blockhead would absorb such make-believe allegories, heedlessly discharged by the impostors.

Or maybe, these impostors are just prompting the rest of the Indians to jog their minds rather than memories.

:shhh: :ashamed:

[SRS]

[tscii:40de23a822]
However, the ability of a child to learn and speak the language taught by his/her parents at home and/or teachers at school in itself is an evidence of cerebral endowment of the child. While a family dog or cat may have learnt the meaning of a few basic commands given in a particular language, they will never be able to learn and speak the language of the house in their entire lives. The reason is simple, biologically dogs and cats do not posses the required cerebral endowments to learn and speak human languages. For them, the question of developing a structured language, maintaining it and keeping it alive for future generations as a medium of communication as well as the means of cognition transfer may never arise.

It is true that the ability to "speak" may be taken as a valid measure of limited cognitive development. However, cognitive development is a rather superflous term here; a more precise term might be cognitive processes . According to Wikepedia, these cognitive processes include "memory, attention, perception, action, problem solving and mental imagery." Now, enhanced language skills might aid one's memory, attention, perception and mental imagery. Problem-solving is a dfferent matter. Alreadty neurological science has drawn the conclusion that the right hemisphere of the brain is responsible for such endowments as reading, writing, and oral communication (all of which are based on a firm grasp of language . However, the left hemisphere of the brain is responsible for abstract problem-solving. So very clearly one can see that simply acquiring language skills by themselves does not in any way, except perhaps at the barest minimum - which would be crude memory at best (one could remember in one's native language as opposed to a foreign tounge) - does not increase one's skill in approaching logical problems. There is a simple reason for this. Common language by itself is simply too imprecise. The [b] languages utilized by science and mathematics require the utilization of the left hemisphere of the brain . Some might even take exception with the use of the term "language" in the latter regard. Mathematics, at the pure level, has more to do with identifying patterns. The pattern is independant of any language description. G.H. Hardy says that these patterns create their own reality. By looking at the extreme case of the autistic savant (http://www.guardian.co.uk/weekend/story/0,,1409903,00.html) one can see that is indeed true.

If there is any reason to write anything down in mathematics, it has to do with the limited memory of humans, as well as the fact that mathematics serves a practical function as well. Science, of course, is largely applied mathematics. The utilization of mathematics is there simply to ensure consistency.






Therefore, a child learning to speak a language is a first major step in the journey of his/her cognitive development, which is initiated by his/her parents or guardians using a language they learnt from their parents or guardians. The level of success in the rest of the child's cognitive journey would depend on the availability of valid information and knowledge at that time and in that language, combined with the cerebral endowment of the child to acquire further new and advanced knowledge as he/she grows up. No cognition survives unless it is transferred to, or exchanged with, family members, friends, colleagues and/or other members of society, the same way the past generations did, forming a feedback loop, which is entirely of different nature than the two illustrated and mentioned above.

Again, cognitive is too broad a term. One must refer to the specific cognitive process within the following: memory, attention, perception, action, problem solving and mental imagery. I have already made the case that simply acquiring language skills will not in any way improve one's reasoning (logical) abilities. Only experience at pattern identification and pattern manipulation, both of which require no language skills whatsoever, will improve one's logical abilities. An excellent example is Stephen Hawking. Before the onset of illness, Hawking had refined his problem-solving skills (by problem-solving I mean mathematical and scientific ability) to such a tremendous extent, that when his ability to communicate with others was severely curtailed, his ability to reason nevertheless remained intact. Yet more proof that the left hemisphere and the right hemisphere serve two distinctly different functions, and that language is no barrier to the function of the left hemisphere.




Thus, it is the succession of cognition transfers that forms the foundation of cognitive development of a child; and all cognition transfers necessarily depend on the level of evolution of the language being used at the time, which itself depends on the cognitive and cerebral endowments of the past generations and the level of evolution of the language being used at that time.

The evolution of common, crude imprecise language that by modern standards, decades of education serve to rectify. :D


A grown-up human may have a priory knowledge of 5 + 7 = 12, but he/she may entirely lack the knowledge or ability to solve an algebraic equation, which a child of 12 or less may well be equipped to solve it simply because he/she learnt it at school.

The cognitive process being exploited here is memory.




This is a clear example of cognition transfer, which is only possible through a structured language.

One does not need necessarily need a language to count. Counting is probably an instinctual process. Example, if a female dinosaur had five eggs in the nest, she will know she has four eggs in the nest. If seven more eggs are laid, she will know she has twelve eggs in the nest. I doubt if the dinosaur is capable of any "structured language", however I am sure she will notice if an egg is missing.




More involved and advanced mathematical treatments, scientific works and other intellectually demanding professions will require advanced level of conceptual grasps that can be conceptualised and/or symbolised and then expressed for normal usage as well as for formal cognition transfers, which requires a language that is evolved enough to do just that. If the language is not evolved enough to serve that need, further refinement of the language is warranted. The society that does precisely that, reflects the cognitive and cerebral endowments of the society.

It was more likely the evolution of the left hemisphere of the brain, as opposed to the right hemisphere of the brain, that is responsible for the increase in cognition, as per the most primitive man, compared with successive lines of his descendants. Primitive man will understand that rubbing two sticks together will create enough friction to start a fire. He may also possess such mental capacity to attempt the same with other materials (refine the process). However, it is unlikely that primitive man cared why or how the fire was started; he was indifferent to any molecular structure, neither did he concieve of producing fire on a large scale. Neither did he to think to write the manner of producing the fire, as it was such a simple process. Only successive lines of his descendants accomplished this feat, based largely on evolution of the left hemisphere of the brain. [/quote]



However, the switching of a language to the one with rich vocabulary and in which more valid information and knowledge are available and that which aids in enhancing and acquiring new and advanced knowledge may play a major role in shifting the course of cognitive development of a society, as English did for the past generations of India, it currently does for the present generations and it may continue to serve that need for the future generations too, killing most Indian languages over the time.

Language is as much a cultural phenomenon as it is a measure of cognitive development. It can be said that in like anywhere else for a long time, education was restricted to a select few. The rise of free public education has only been made possible as a result of mass-scale industrialization. I fail to see any shift in cognitive development, other than the use of a computer, which most jobs require these days. Despite the advent of free public education, the vast majority of any total non-homogenous population do not
pursue lucrative professions, which, incidentally, require high levels of problem-solving skills, e.g. engineering and medicine. The majority simply learn an array of specialized skills (book-keeping, power-point presentation, etc.) that are not very different from what they might have pursued before the advent of free education). What is the difference between a farmer keeping track of his crop yield, and deciding how much to sell at the market, than an accountant or broker? The average individual who goes to university to study accounting or become a broker does so largely to become familiar with the situations he may encounter. In theory, he could learn all such skills at the job itself; however, it is more cost-efficient for a large bank or corporation if this individual has a theoretical idea of what he will encounter (and possible solutions) while on the job. Now, there is nothing wrong with these professions. However, I am simply saying that if the introduction of English made such a vast impact on the cognitive development of the total population, then the great majority should be pursuing lucrative fields that promise high dividends, as that makes the most economic sense. Of course, the tacit assumption is that this "cognitive development" would include problem-solving (reasoning and logic skills), which I do not think is the case.





For a civilisation to come into being and develop, interaction between the intellectuals and general public, no matter how significant or insignificant it may be, is inevitable and this is a fundamental ground upon which the formation of any society can be based. Based on the above four categories of human conducts, the following four sets of social interaction process that can take place among the people can be identified.

That is not the case at all. As I have already stated, modern public education is a very new development. No ancient civilization that I am aware of had any system in place in which all were required to go to school.





- The power of language reflects people’s ability to form clear and strong concepts, which in turn depends on the quality of interaction process that is operative among the group of people at a given period of time-frame.

The interaction process is not necessary, although it can be
beneficial. Many of the greatest ideas simply arise spontaneously, as a result of sub-conscious pondering.




- The level of evolution of language directly reflects the quality of cognitive endowments of the society that speaks that language.



The vast majority of the population of any civilization contribute nothing to any famous achievements that that civilization may be responsible for. This is true of the ancient times as well as the present. It is simply a fact that most people, to a certain level, prefer to avoid abstraction. Whether the abstraction is in the form of a poem or a complex mathematical theorem.




- Language forms the fundamental base of human cognitive process, which develops and evolves over generations and centuries depending on the existing communicable thoughts and knowledge.

What the modern educational system has shown is that the brain, at least not yet, is not necessarily wired for abstract thinking, but must usually be trained for such a task. Simply learning to read and write does not do the job.[/tscii:40de23a822]

[Rohit]

Cognitive Development is the end result and Cognitive Process, which is partly innate/inherited and partly acquired through formal or informal education, study and personal experiences, is what goes into achieving that end result. And those abilities, which are innate or inherited are too, in a way, acquired. Usually, only a small fractional part of innate/inherited abilities are decided by the biological factors of individuals.

For example:

1) Without the avilibility of previous works in Atomic theory and the knowledge of the existence of electrons discovered by J.J. Thomson, and the existence of Atomic Nucleus, discovered by Ernest Rutherford, Neils Bohar would not have succeeded in developing his Atomic Model and won the Nobel Prize; and the successive scientists would not have succeeded in refining that model to its current form and also won the Nobel Prizes.

2) Without the previous published and recorded works of previous generations of scientists in physics, atomic theory and particle theory, the solid-state physics would not have reached the maturity that it has and no electronics and digital revolutions would have taken place as we all are witnessing, giving routine examples of the role computers play in our daily lives.

3) Without the availibity of published results of Michelson Morley's experiment, Einstein would not have succeeded in developing his theory of Special Relativity and subsequently the General Theory of Relativity.

4) Without the recorded information and knowledge of previous works on blackbody radiation, Plank would not have succeeded in developing the foundation of Quantum Theory, which won him the Nobel Prize.

5) Without the knowledge of Plank's Quantum Theory, Einstein would not have succeeded in explaining Photoelectric Effect, which won him the Nobel Prize.

These are just an infinitesimally small number of examples in a small number of fields, signifying the importance of succession of cognition transfers in those fields, which require a well-developed language that undeniably plays a decisive role in the cognitive development of a society.

That is why the term Cognitive Development encompasses the human developmental process in its broadest sense, with language playing a significantly important role in that process.

Culture broadly encompasses "The way of thinking" and "The way of doing things" of a society, which says it all about the overall developmemtal phase of a society, its language or languages and the state they achieve as the result of it.

A priory knowledge of 5 + 7 = 12 of a human being is identical to the instinctive knowledge of a female animal knowing how many eggs she had laid; and that is why it is termed as 'a priory knowledge'.

Therefore, it is not necessary that the identifier and solver of a problem need be the same person. A problem may have been identified, known or existed for a long time, even as long as a few generations, without a solution due to lack of necessary theoretical and/or technological advances in the field and/or due to lack of insight altogether. However, when someone finds the solution to the same old problem, long time after it was first identified, it may well appear so easy and simple. And there are plenty of such examples in mathematics, science and engineering in general and in many other fields having anthropological significance. Some examples of this are listed above. Here, the crucial and deciding factor is simply the contingency of solution on time dependent evolution of cognition.

Yes, the brain is not wired for all types of abstract thinking, but it acquires such ability through education, experience and study. However, there are elements of cerebral endowments, which are innate and responsible for some becoming inborn genius at very young ages. Nonetheless, the overall Cognitive Process becomes more efficient under right environmental conditions. That is why, both 'nature' and 'nurture' play equally important roles in one's cognitive development; and the richness of language used to transfer those information and knowledge plays a major role in deciding the final outcome of one's cognitive development.

Therefore, given the two identical brains, the one, which is trained through education and study in a richer language, would far outperform the one that is neither trained through education and study nor has access to information and knowledge that the former has, which, as the cosequence, would predominantly decide the quality of experiences the individuals would go through. History provides undeniable evidences and records of this undeniable fact.
:D :) :thumbsup:

[SRS]

These are just an infinitesimally small number of examples in a small number of fields, signifying the importance of succession of cognition transfers in those fields, which require a well-developed language that undeniably plays a decisive role in the cognitive development of a society.

Undeniably, a well-developed language will play some role (the degree will vary) in the "cognitive development" of certain individuals. In the case of the greater mass of a given population, this role will be insignificant. As I have said, within certain parameters, although volumes of information are available at lightning speed on virtually any subject, most individuals are content to choose a mediocre profession. By mediocre, I am referring solely to salary, the choice of a high salary obviously referring to sound economic sense. Clearly, the availability of information, irrespective of language, does not correspond to an increase in certain cognitive capabilities, particularly reasoning and problem-solving skills, as seen in the decline of educational standards in the UK and North America since the advent of the Internet. On the other hand, India and China are producing engineers at an astonishing rate in proportion to the industrialized West. India is already a nuclear power; its "third-world" status will vanish in a few decades.

[SRS]

These are just an infinitesimally small number of examples in a small number of fields, signifying the importance of succession of cognition transfers in those fields, which require a well-developed language that undeniably plays a decisive role in the cognitive development of a society.

Undeniably, a well-developed language will play some role (the degree will vary) in the "cognitive development" of certain individuals. In the case of the greater mass of a given population, this role will be insignificant. As I have said, within certain parameters, although volumes of information are available at lightning speed on virtually any subject, most individuals are content to choose a mediocre profession. By mediocre, I am referring solely to salary, the choice of a high salary obviously referring to sound economic sense. Clearly, the availability of information, irrespective of language, does not correspond to an increase in certain cognitive capabilities, particularly reasoning and problem-solving skills, as seen in the decline of educational standards in the UK and North America since the advent of the Internet. On the other hand, India and China are producing engineers at an astonishing rate in proportion to the industrialized West. India is already a nuclear power; its "third-world" status will vanish in a few decades.

[SRS]

These are just an infinitesimally small number of examples in a small number of fields, signifying the importance of succession of cognition transfers in those fields, which require a well-developed language that undeniably plays a decisive role in the cognitive development of a society.

Undeniably, a well-developed language will play some role (the degree will vary) in the "cognitive development" of certain individuals. In the case of the greater mass of a given population, this role will be insignificant. As I have said, within certain parameters, although volumes of information are available at lightning speed on virtually any subject, most individuals are content to choose a mediocre profession. By mediocre, I am referring solely to salary, the choice of a high salary obviously referring to sound economic sense. Clearly, the availability of information, irrespective of language, does not correspond to an increase in certain cognitive capabilities, particularly reasoning and problem-solving skills, as seen in the decline of educational standards in the UK and North America since the advent of the Internet. On the other hand, India and China are producing engineers at an astonishing rate in proportion to the industrialized West. India is already a nuclear power; its "third-world" status will vanish in a few decades.

[Rohit]

Initially,


Language does not reflect a society's cognitive development, nor the cognitive development of a human being, except in a limited evolutionary sense.

Anyone who has done programming understands that language is merely syntax.

Now, I have said language is merely syntax.

Common language by itself is simply too imprecise.
Then,

The evolution of common, crude imprecise language that by modern standards, decades of education serve to rectify.

Language is as much a cultural phenomenon as it is a measure of cognitive development.

However, the structure underlying that language may require enormous amounts of mental ability to grasp.

Now, enhanced language skills might aid one's memory, attention, perception and mental imagery.
And now,


Undeniably, a well-developed language will play some role (the degree will vary) in the cognitive development of certain individuals.
The above quoted specific statements, in three specific parts, clearly show a gradual shift from a heedless complete denial to a reasonable acceptance of the undeniable fact that a well-developed language undeniably plays an important and decisive role in the cognitive development of society.

Gladly, the discussion so far has successfully yielded one more individual from the state of complete denial to the state of acceptance of the undeniable fact. This is more than sufficient, irrespective of the incorrect demarcation of the degree and the number of individuals involved, as it is equally applicable to all societies.

Given identical spread of human abilities, those 'certain' individuals would translate into a percentage of the population of a society, which should be the same for all societies; and therefore, a society with larger population should produce more number of those 'certain' individuals than a society with a smaller population. Therefore, given identical human abilities, the scenario should result in equal cognitive developmental growth of all societies, which was not, and is not, the case. Why? The answer to this is as follows.

Society, by its very nature, is a dynamic system. And like any dynamic system, whose response depends on its initial conditions, the developmental course of a society is also governed by its initial conditions set by the initial world-view adopted by the society, which essentially depends upon the quality of apprehension and interpretation of the reality around them.

The world-view adopted thus, essentially sets the course of "The way of thinking" and "The way of doing things" of the society, which sets the course of their language and/or languages and thus the course of their Cognitive Process. The Cognitive Process set up thus; sets the path of the society's cognitive journey; which also sets the beginning of the accumulation of the society's Cognitive Endowments.

Since, Cognitive Endowment is an accumulated, intangible wealth of a society; the rate at which such wealth is accumulated would depend on the rate at which new and diverse valid, rational and logical cognition in all conceivable and possible real fields is acquired.

The rest is as explained in my first post, which was also pepeated again recently, about the develomental courses of the four types of societies. Please go back to that post, read it again, considering as it is inserted here as continuation of what has been said above, to grasp the essece of mechanism and dynamics involved in the developmental process of human societies.

Like any dynamic system, an injection of the new input or the component changes or modifies the legacy of its initial conditions and enhances its performance, the shift of language to a richer and well-developed one, is more likely to change the course of Cognitive Process and thus the Cognitive Development of the society.

Therefore, the degree and percentage by which a well-developed language could enhance the Cognitive Process and thus the Cognitive Development of a society would greatly depend on the percentage of people coming out of the held fixed and narrow world-view and adopting a relatively flexible and broader world-view expressible in the new language, which reflects "The way of thinking" and "The way of doing things" of a different, but developed society.

:D :) :thumbsup:

[Rohit]

Today is 26th January 2007.

Today India celebrates the 57th anniversary of the establishment of India as The Republic of India.

English:Happy Republic day to all Indians.

Urdu: Sare desh ki awam ko Jamburiat Din ki khas khas mubaarakbad.

Hindi:Sare desh wasion ko PrajaSattak Din - evam - GanaTantra Diwas ki hardik shubhKaamna.

:thumbsup:

[SRS]

Anyone who has done programming understands that language is merely syntax.

Now, I have said language is merely syntax.

Common language by itself is simply too imprecise.

Language is merely syntax, unless one insists on absolute precision . In mathematics, this precision is attained by resorting to set theory. There is no "rich vocabulary" as such in set theory. If one contrasts set theory with a language such as English, the imprecise nature of English is grossly apparent.


The evolution of common, crude imprecise language that by modern standards, decades of education serve to rectify.

It has been my experience that the vast majority are incapable of successfully self-educating themselves beyond a very limited extent even with excellent teaching aids at their disposal. Hence the need for school, which consists of repetition of basic facts, examinations, and experimentation. When, in fact, all of the above, except, to a certain degree, experimentation (due to constraints on the availability of sophisticated instrumentation), could be grasped by an individual simply by reading a book. The primary problem consists of the variance in the language of the book and the language used by the individual, and (2) an inability to make new assumptions based on prior knowledge, without necessarily being explicitly informed of the new assumptions. In the case of (2), the issue cannot be rectified merely by acquiring new language skills. Much more important are the development of analytical thinking skills.


Language is as much a cultural phenomenon as it is a measure of cognitive development.

It is a cultural phenomenon in that the literary and dramatic works of a given society may revolve around the primary language used by that society. However, language is not the only contributor to the cultural development aspect. Science is another.



However, the structure underlying that language may require enormous amounts of mental ability to grasp.

In the case of computer languages, and in the case of set theory, for example. The structure underlying a human language, however, so-called grammer, can only be limited in precision, due to the "impurity" of that language, resulting from words borrowed from other languages. A prime example being English.


Now, enhanced language skills might aid one's memory, attention, perception and mental imagery.

But not aid in the development of logical reasoning and analysis. The development of logical reasoning and analysis is an artificial process, not an evolutionary one. If Ramanujan had been born to a tribe of cannibals, we would not have heard of him today. Of course, the cannibals would speak a language, and perhaps even developed a crude form of mental imagery, as one can derive from drawings in the caves inhabited by primitive humans. There perception might also be superior to that of humans living in conventional society, in regards to certain tasks.




Given identical spread of human abilities, those 'certain' individuals would translate into a percentage of the population of a society, which should be the same for all societies; and therefore, a society with larger population should produce more number of those 'certain' individuals than a society with a smaller population. Therefore, given identical human abilities, the scenario should result in equal cognitive developmental growth of all societies, which was not, and is not, the case. Why? The answer to this is as follows.

First of all, one should at the outset distinguish between significant aspects of cognitive development and insignificant aspects of cognitive development. By significant, I am referring to say, a major scientific or technological innovation. Or else, a literary masterpiece. Anyone can learn Newton's Laws. But how many will learn Newton's Laws, then celestial mechanics, and then go on to revolutionize the aircraft industry? Anyone can write an essay or a poem. But how many can write a novel on the level of Shakespeare? In the context of significant and insignificant that I was referring to earlier, significant will equate with such advances as will make a major impact in a given field. Whereas, insignficant refers to the cognitive development of the ordinary individual, irrespective of the world-view adopted by him/her, and the neighboring society. In simple terms, the cognitive development of most individuals is so insignificant, that to judge the cognitive development of the society that they belong to, raises the obvious question: just who is responsible for the advance of that society (if we take advance of that society as a measure of "cognitive development)? The answer is not so obvious. One must be specific as to the term "advance." I will choose science. In this case, less than 3% of the population contribute anything of lasting value. This is readily apparent if one considers that even within the scientific field itself, the vast majority of scientists make no lasting contribution whatsoever. It is not a question of motivation or world-view; it is simply that there is such a variance between the manner in which intelligence has "evolved", and the need for highly specialized training, and the ability to synthesize the two, that most individuals, even very good scientists, never proceed beyond a certain point. Genius, of course, is another matter.

[Rohit]

Anyone can write an essay or a poem. But how many can write a novel on the level of Shakespeare?
Ironically, the arguments and statements from the other end are unwarily becoming more and more self-contradictory and self-defeating, which rather proves what I have been saying so far.

Anyway,


He uses examples from Shakespeare to make the point that one must master the language before being able to play with it, be creative with it.

By bending and breaking rules, as Shakespeare did so many times in his writings, we create new words, new idioms and new ways of saying things.

Out of 1 million words used by Shakespeare, only 46,000 are used differently today, or just 5%.

David understands that grammar is what helps us understand words.

If words are said alone, we really don't know what they mean.

He also understands that words become a word class when we use it a particular way.

David showed us that Shakespeare teaches us not to be scared about being creative with language, he teaches us to dare with language.

Being able to dare with language means being linguistically sophisticated.

Isora understands that language and culture go together in life and in teaching, pointing out that language is the means by which culture is expressed and that culture reflects the whole of human behavior.

Isora told us that the objective of teaching foreign languages in Cuba is to enhance learners' culture.

Widdowson started his talk by reminding us that ELT has changed very radically over the last decades as a consequence of English becoming an international language, or the world language.

http://www.teachingenglish.org.uk/iatefl2003/magali_23.shtml

The National Endowment for the Arts: The mission of the National Endowment for the Arts is to enrich our nation and its diverse cultural heritage by supporting works of artistic excellence, advancing learning in the arts, and strengthening the arts in communities throughout the country. Established by Congress in 1965, the Arts Endowment is an independent agency of the federal government and is the largest annual funder of the arts. Since then, it has awarded more than 120,000 grants in all 50 states and the six U.S. jurisdictions.

http://www.shakespearesantacruz.org/info/pr_3.05.html
It is also in accordance with the common understanding that language reflects culture, which is nothing but "The way of thinking" and "The way of doing things" of a society - which is the whole of human behavior as rightly stated and emphasised by Isora in the above quote.

Like I have said countless times that, language reflects thoughts of people, which undeniably reflect the cognitive abilities of people.

Hence, literature or peice of works in arts, science, engineering, mathematics, technology and such like intellectually demanding fields containing new ideas, imaginations, theories, concepts; requiring new terminology, words, symbols, vocabulary and sophistication reflect/express the thoughts; and thus the cognitive abilities of those intellectuals, as well as the Cognitive Endowments of the society that creates them.

More on language and thoughts:


The definition of the word "language" can be limited to mean "a vocal and auditory means of communication, which works by the symbolic process, which has a complex structure, and which is constantly changing so long as it remains in use."

There are six implications of this definition:

1) Although language is primarily auditory and vocal, it can be extended by the activity of writing.

(2) Whenever communication is intended, the media is a system of language.

(3) We can use sound symbolically to speak of an infinite number of concrete, abstract, mythological, and fantasied concepts which can be changed and adapted to new uses.

(4) Through a scientific treatment of language, some of the principles of language development, its structure, and use have been discovered and demonstrate that no set of features can be expected to be universally present in all languages.

(5) Languages are responsive to the culture they serve.

(6) Since language changes, the English teacher has a responsibility to make a continuous effort to evaluate and, possibly, to utilize new language theories.This article appeared in "language, linguistics, and school programs, proceedings of the spring institutes, 1963." Champaign, ill, Ncte, 1963)
Those, whose cognitive abilities continue to fail them in grasping the state of affairs between thoughts and language and vice-versa, must attempt to attend some primary course on thoughts and language. The highlights and description of one of the many such available courses are provided below.


Highlights of this Course

This graduate course on language and thought brings together ideas and findings from cognitive, developmental, and cultural psychology, as well as linguistics, anthropology, and ethnology. The course is a high-level exploration of the fields of language and thought. The extensive reading list provides an excellent grounding in the field to prepare future research scientists. In addition, the related resources link to web sites that provide resources for further study.

Course Description:

Subject examines the many interrelationships between language and thought. Do people who speak different languages think differently? Does learning new languages change the way you think? Do polyglots think differently in different languages? Are some thoughts unthinkable without language?

http://ocw.mit.edu/OcwWeb/Brain-and-Cognitive-Sciences/9-402Language-and-ThoughtFall2002/CourseHome/index.htm
RE: Problem solving skills/abilities

The utter incapacity of all Indian languages in dealing with the advanced subject matters of science, mathematics, engineering and technology in general; also of economics and modern commerce etc. was a long running and major problem and it is still a major problem.

Isn't there any Indian who would volunteer and demonstrate his/her problem solving skills or abilities and solve this long running, serious and awkward problem for the sake of Mother India's pride?

I am sure, he/she will have a strong traditional Indian problem solving skills or abilities to solve the problem, which will be:

When India has already inherited English, which has already solved the problem and serves the purpose perfectly well; then, why bother to do anything at all? :wink:

Fact:

Nobel Prize Winners 1901 - 2001

Indian population = 18% of the world population

Field--Indians--Total
Literature--2--104
Chemistry--0--151
Peace--1--117
Economics--1--58
Physics--2--180
Psychology & Medicine--1--186Which equates to just 7 Indians out of a world total of 796.

Most, in fact all of them (i.e. Indians) had their education in English. They also studied English literature in respective fields of their interest. All of which shifted and enhanced the way of their thinking and doing things.

And the 7 counts, out of a total of 796, barely make it to 0.9% of the total.

Moreover, out of those 7 counts, at least 3 of them are Non Resident Indians (NRI), which may correctly represent their due contributions as NRIs, but it reduces the net percentage count of resident Indians to an opprobrious 0.5%; when it should be at least 18% or 147 out of 796, if not more.

Which sums it up well enough to prove the point, leaving none whatsoever scope for any dispute.

And finally, a quote from Shakespeare, which goes something like this:


Take away the language they speak, their culture will soon die away.
And this is not far from fact.

Therefore, there is no point in dragging the issue when all arguments essentially prove the same fact.

That is all I have to say for now.

It is entirely up to the readers and other people to grasp the essentials and correlates in the state of affairs of thoughts, cognitive abilities, development of language and/or languages, cognitive processes, cognitive endowments and finally the cognitive development itself, which is the end result.

:D :) :thumbsup:

[SRS]

As I have said, the "cognitive development" of most individuals, regardless of any level of schooling, societal development, etc. never proceeds beyond a mediocre level. This is best illustrated by the fact that since the advent of the Internet, which makes so-called "cognitive transfer" possible on an unprecedented scale, educational standards in the industrialized West have continued to decline. One way to rectify this would be to reformulate the entire economic system, but doing so would create mass chaos, as the very existence of the predominant economic system, Capitalism, relies on those with mediocre cognitive abilities performing mediocre tasks. Whether evolution will correct the problem is open to large debate, and I will pass no comments in that regard.

Therefore it makes no sense to judge the "cognitive development" of any society as such a judgement makes little sense, given that those contributing to any such "cognitive development" in fact constitute a tiny elite, less than 5% of that societies' total population. :D

[SRS]

Speaking of Noble Prizes, the largest number of Nobel Prize winners in all the physical sciences were German (who studied in German of course). Going by the logic of Rohit, India should adopt "German" as the medium of instruction; relative to which the rate of Indian Nobel Prize winners can be expected to increase exponentially!

[Rohit]

......given that those contributing to any such "cognitive development" in fact constitute a tiny elite, less than 5% of that societies' total population.:D
For a country like India, an increase in current elite class from an insignificant 0.13% to 5% would amount to a phenomenal 37-fold increase in the scale of national cognitive growth, which would be sufficient to change the whole equation when it would come to rate high calibre works in every intellectually demanding field, both at national level as well as at global level. Like I said earlier, it can take generations, but it can happen, if and only if, there is a real shift in "The way of thinking" and "The way of doing things" of the Indian society at large scale.

:D :) :thumbsup:

[Rohit]

Speaking of Noble Prizes, the largest number of Nobel Prize winners in all the physical sciences were German (who studied in German of course). Going by the logic of Rohit, India should adopt "German" as the medium of instruction; relative to which the rate of Indian Nobel Prize winners can be expected to increase exponentially!
Whether one speaks of German, English or French, or any other language for that matter, the end result would be strongly correlative of the fact that any language that expresses "Scientific way of thinking" and "Scientific way of doing things" would yield into higher cognitive development or growth of the society than the languages that do not. Therefore, any language that expresses "Scientific way of thinking" and "Scientific way of doing things" would essentially bring about strongly correlative outcome or outcomes in terms of cognitive development or growth of the society.

:D :) :thumbsup:

[sundararaj]

Good info...thanks :D

[SRS]

Speaking of Noble Prizes, the largest number of Nobel Prize winners in all the physical sciences were German (who studied in German of course). Going by the logic of Rohit, India should adopt "German" as the medium of instruction; relative to which the rate of Indian Nobel Prize winners can be expected to increase exponentially!
Whether one speaks of German, English or French, or any other language for that matter, the end result would be strongly correlative of the fact that any language that expresses "Scientific way of thinking" and "Scientific way of doing things" would yield into higher cognitive development or growth of the society than the languages that do not. Therefore, any language that expresses "Scientific way of thinking" and "Scientific way of doing things" would essentially bring about strongly correlative outcome or outcomes in terms of cognitive development or growth of the society.

As I have said before, those who make significant contributions to the "cognitive development" of a society tend have to IQ's well-above-average; these individuals need a minimum of basic education; thereafter, they are able to draw conclusions for themselves; conclusions, which, in fact, may have a revolutionary impact on the society around them. This is well-evidenced in the lives of so-called "geniuses." I will give three examples. Newton discovered calculus in isolation while in a barn, Ramanujan simply saw mathematical conclusions without proofs, and wrote the proofs by himself; Gauss, when he was 8 yrs old or so, was able to sum the first 100 numbers in his head using some logic he had never come across in any book .

The point of the matter is, the vast majority of individuals, regardless of exposure to vast amounts of information, regardless of educational background, will never be able to perform the above tasks. Therefore, they will never contribute anything of lasting value to the so-called "cognitive development" of the society.

[SRS]

Therefore, any language that expresses "Scientific way of thinking" and "Scientific way of doing things" would essentially bring about strongly correlative outcome or outcomes in terms of cognitive development or growth of the society.

There is no human language that expresses a "scientific way of thinking", other than Sanskrit. However, due to unfortunate circumstances, most are unable to speak this language today. If they could, it would aid their cognitive abilities tremondously. Thank you for pointing out this important fact. However, keep in mind that Sanskrit is the only exception to this rule, and it is foolhardy to expect the world to conform to a single language.

[Rohit]

Present day regional languages borrow more than 80 per cent words from Sanskrit.

No wonder why their evolution remained ceased for centuries and no wonder why they all remained utterly incapable of dealing with the advanced subject matters of science, engineering, mathematics in general and also of modern economics, commerce etc. No wonder at all.

Anyway, here, language is meant as natural language and not as artificial languages used for software development for, or programming of, computers and robots or AI that may not develop autonomous thinking capacity of their own in a foreseeable future.

A language must carry social dimensions; and likewise, there must exist linguistic dimensions of society too.

A language can serve as a medium of communication, only if it is spoken and/or written by society.

A language must be capable of communication of thoughts and experiences through structural representation of conceptual terms having cognitive dimensions and/or orientations.

A language should be capable of serving as a medium of communication, both for vocal and/or written instructions as well as in education in general.

When a language loses its social dimensions, and at the same time, the linguistic dimensions of society towards the language no longer exist, the language degenerates, becomes dead and eventually goes extinct.

Those who suffer from cognitive degeneration, which renders them incapable of grasping the overall process involved in language development and its evolution as briefly described earlier, invariably use false analogies and dissonance ridden fallacies to maintain the false value of the dead and/or extinct languages.

Such approach avoidance conflicts are frequently observed in those dull novices who are inculcated to assimilate almost all forms of fallacies and blunders, since they severely lacked in autonomous thinking ability to grasp the essentials and correlates of situations. And therefore, they may never realise the fact that they indiscriminately keep committing fallacies and blunders while arguing without having any real evidence in support even when the situation necessarily requires some strong ones.

Nonetheless, there is no stronger evidence of the death of a language than the dead language itself.

:D :) :thumbsup:

[Rohit]

Good info...thanks :D
You are most welcome, sundararaj. :)

[Rohit]

Ramanujan was indeed a genius; there is no second opinion about that. But neither he nor his work was valued in India; and that fact is nothing but a humiliating blow on the face of Indian society.

Nonetheless, it is also worth noticing the following facts.

Born in South India, Ramanujan was a promising student, winning academic prizes in high school. But at age 16 his life took a decisive turn after he obtained a book titled A Synopsis of Elementary Results in Pure and Applied Mathematics. The book was simply a compilation of thousands of mathematical results, most set down with little or no indication of proof. It was in no sense a mathematical classic; rather, it was written as an aid to coaching English mathematics students facing the notoriously difficult Tripos examination, which involved a great deal of wholesale memorization. But in Ramanujan it inspired a burst of feverish mathematical activity, as he worked through the book's results and beyond. Unfortunately, his total immersion in mathematics was disastrous for Ramanujan's academic career: ignoring all his other subjects, he repeatedly failed his college.

Ramanujan's years in England were mathematically productive, and he gained the recognition he hoped for.

http://www.usna.edu/Users/math/meh/ramanujan.html

So, such is the power of knowledge transfers and such are the outcomes of stimulated mental activities through such knowledge transfers, inspiring and generating requisite drives in others.

Adulthood in India

After his marriage (on July 14, 1909) he began searching for work. With his packet of mathematical calculations, he travelled around the city of Madras (now Chennai) looking for a clerical position. He managed finally to get a job at the Accountant General's Office at Madras. Ramanujan desired to focus completely on mathematics, and was advised by an Englishman to contact scholars in Cambridge. He doggedly solicited support from influential Indian individuals and published several papers in Indian mathematical journals, but was unsuccessful in his attempts to foster sponsorship. (It might be the case that he was supported by Ramachandra Rao, then the Collector of the Nellore District and a distinguished civil servant. Rao, an amateur mathematician himself, was the uncle of the well-known mathematician, K. Ananda Rao, who went on to become the Principal of the Presidency college.) It was at this point that Sir Ashutosh Mukherjee tried to bolster his cause.

In late 1912 and early 1913, Ramanujan sent letters and examples of his theorems to three Cambridge academics: H. F. Baker, E. W. Hobson, and G. H. Hardy. Only Hardy, to whom Ramanujan wrote in January 1913, recognized the genius demonstrated by the theorems.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srinivasa_Ramanujan

:D :) :thumbsup:

[Rohit]

RE: Newton

Although Newton was its inventor, he did not introduce calculus into European mathematics. In 1675 Leibniz arrived independently at virtually the same method, which he called differential calculus.

http://www.math.fu-berlin.de/rd/ag/isaac/newton/newtlife.html

Little is known of Newton's formal studies as an undergraduate, but he likely received large doses of Aristotle as well as other classical authors.

http://web.clas.ufl.edu/users/rhatch/pages/01-Courses/current-courses/08sr-newton.htm

So, proving it once more that, such is the power of cognition transfers and such are the outcomes of stimulated mental activities through such cognition transfers, inspiring and generating requisite drives in others. The interacting sequence of cognition transfers continues to provide undeniable evidences of the stated fact.

As I said earlier, there is no point in dragging the issue when all evidences, data and arguments incontrovertibly prove the same fact.

Therefore, I do not wish to continue entertaining the relentless influx of dissonance-ridden fallacies and blunders, heedlessly discharged by someone at the other end. I am extremely sorry to say this, but we had enough of that.

Of course, the rest may continue, if they wish.

Thank you.

:D :) :thumbsup:

[SRS]

- It appears in pre-Classical form as Vedic Sanskrit (appearing in the Vedas), with the language of the Rigveda being the oldest and most archaic stage preserved. This fact and comparative studies in historical linguistics show that it is one of the earliest attested members of the Indo-European language family; it is considered a base language of many modern-day Asian languages.

- Sanskrit belongs to the Indo-Aryan sub-family of the Indo-European family of languages. Together with the Iranian languages it belongs to the Indo-Iranian branch and as such is part of the Satem group of Indo-European languages, which also includes the Balto-Slavic branch.


- The corpus of Sanskrit literature encompasses a rich tradition of poetry and literature, as well as scientific, technical, philosophical and religious texts.

[SRS]

[tscii:5def3665ee]Did Bhaskar II discover calculus?

Bhaskar II was born in Vijapur in the province of Karnataka in 1114 A.D. He wrote Siddhanta-Shiromani in 1150, which became a classical text in Mathematics and Astronomy. The book is divided in four parts: Lilavati deals with arithmetic, Bijaganita with algebra, Ganitadhyaya and Goladhyaya with astronomy.

In Siddhanta Shiromani, Bhaskar II defines two kinds of planetary velocities: Sthula gati (average speed) and Sukshma or Tatkaliki gati (instantaneous velocity). The process of finding instantaneous velocity involves the use of differential calculus. There is definite proof that Bhaskar II carried out such calculations using the method of differentiation.

According to Hindu astronomy,

l = lmean ± r sina/R

where,

l = true longitude

lmean = mean longitude

r = radius of the epicycle

a = anomaly

and,

R = radius of the deferent cycle


Bhaskar II formulates the expression for the tatkaliki gati (instantaneous velocity) as follows:

"To find the instantaneous velocity (in longitude) of the planet, the kotiphala is to be multiplied by the time rate of change of anomaly and divided by the radius, and the quotient (thus obtained) is to be added to or subtracted from the velocity of the mean planet according as its position is in the six signs from the beginning of Cancer or Capricorn."

Expressed mathematically,

dl/dt = dlmean/dt ± (r cosa/R) da/dt

where,

r cosa = kotiphala

This equation not only provides his familiarity with the notion of differentiation, but also shows his knowledge of the expression

d(sina)/da = cosa


After Bhaskar II, India went through a long hostile foreign rule, and could not produce any mathematician of his caliber for a long time to come.


Reference: D. M. Bose, S.N. Sen and B. V. Subbarayappa, "A Concise History of Science in India", Indian National Science Academy, 1971, p. 203
[/tscii:5def3665ee]

[Rohit]

I get terribly frightened when I read some of the most cognitively degenerated, ignorant, distorted, disoriented and pretentious posts about the past Indian achievements in science, technology and mathematics, when there have been no real evidences of recognised cognitive outgrowth of Indians in any of the stated fields. Except a few isolated cases.

In order to embrace even the spur of an idea of the achievements of a society in any field, the existence of some real evidences of the true cognitive developmental state of the society is absolutely necessary. And the true developmental state of any society gets reflected in its sustained ability in timely realising of intrusions of undesired and corrupting binding factors in the system that would certainly drag the growth of entire society.

On the contrary,

There is not a single credible reason why Indians could not apply the wealth of the claimed Indian knowledge in advancing the human development of Indian people when the West has evidently done so.

The evolution of all Indian languages remained ceased for centuries and have no chance of any recovery.

Today, Indians have no choice but to keep relying on English language for their education and receiving recognised professional qualifications.

Today, India anxiously looks towards the West for new research works and technologies.

Today, India is heavily dependent on the literature in English language for information and knowledge in those advanced fields.

Today, India is heavily dependent on English language for acquiring new and advanced knowledge in almost all advanced fields.

India is heavily dependent on Russian and other foreign technologies for its military and defence equipment needs.

India is heavily dependent on foreign technologies for its needs of commercial, scientific, engineering, domestic and household gears.

Most educated and modern Indians have abandoned their original Indian way of life and happily adopted the western way of life.

There are so many logical and obvious questions that have more negative answers than they have positive. Yet there exists an abundance of Indian imbeciles who sincerely believe in those fabricated and twisted allegories, fallacies and blunders, constructed by a few heedless charlatans.

But when one asks these charlatans, why couldn't we Indians apply this knowledge for our own development? In reply, they become absolutely mute.

Perhaps the entire Indian population was suffering from sever Amnesia or Alzheimer's disease; and as a result, no Indian could remember the mathematics, science and technologies, invented by the past Indian generations; and transfer the cognition to the successive generations.

Maybe the ancient Indians had serious problems in documenting their works; but then, it generates serious disparity, as no one could ever claim anything about it.

Furthermore; how come the whole of India and her massive population of hundreds of millions of Indians became slaves to a few foreign invaders even when Indians were 2000:1 strong against the invaders?

So, no amount of false rationalisation could ever account for such dismal and opprobrious records of Indian impetuousness.

Only a complete blockhead would absorb such make-believe allegories, heedlessly discharged by the impostors.

Or maybe, these impostors are just prompting the rest of the Indians to jog their minds rather than memories.

:shhh: :ashamed:

[thamiz]

I get terribly frightened when I read some of the most cognitively degenerated, ignorant, distorted, disoriented and pretentious posts about the past Indian achievements in science, technology and mathematics, when there have been no real evidences of recognised cognitive outgrowth of Indians in any of the stated fields. Except a few isolated cases.

Me too! :(

[SRS]

[tscii:0aeb87f186]Your continued donations keep Wikipedia running!
Jyotisha
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Astrology

Background
History of astrology
History of astronomy
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Arab and Persian astrology
Babylonian astrology
Chinese astrology
Egyptian astrology
Hellenistic astrology
Indian (Vedic) astrology
Mayan astrology
Western astrology
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horoscopic astrology

Natal astrology
Electional astrology
Horary astrology
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Astrology by type
Jyotisha (jyotiṣa, in Hindi and English usage Jyotish) is the Hindu system of astrology, one of the six disciplines of Vedanga, and regarded as one of the oldest schools of ancient astrology to have had an independent origin, affecting all other schools in and around India. The Sanskrit word derives from jyótis (disjointed as "Ja"+"Ya"+"O"+"T"+"ish" to get the root meaning as "water or birth"+"in addition to" + "earth" and "stars" + "knowledgeable" equating as one who is knowledgeable, or enlightened with knowledge, of birth, fate, and relationship to water, earth and stars) or which means "light, brightness", but in the plural also "the heavenly bodies, planets and stars".

Jyotish has historically been part of a continuous "holistic" approach to living and to spiritual practice within the life of Hindus predominant in India.

Jyotish is often discussed as the instructional element of the Rig Veda, and as such is a Vedanga, or "body part" of the Vedas, namely called the Eye of the Veda, for its alleged ability to view both phenomenal reality and wisdom itself. Part of a larger Vedic curriculum including mathematics, architecture, medical and military applications. Jyotish has its own sophisticated reference to the noumenal: the planets are "grahas", which are thought to seize or act upon created beings and influence their actions and life.

As Hindus believe that humans have fortune and misfortune in life because of karma, many use Jyotish to understand the downs in life due to the influence of planets, i.e., Navagraha and perform religious ceremonies to mitigate bad karma.

Contents [hide]
1 Foundations
2 Branches of Vedic / Hindu Astrology
3 Hindu and Western astrology
4 Modern approaches to Jyotisha
5 Fundamentals of Jyotisha
5.1 Graha - the planets
5.2 Rashi - the signs
5.3 Bhava - the houses
5.4 Nakshatra - the lunar asterism
5.5 Veshaish Lagna - Special Ascendants
5.6 Varga - the divisional charts
5.7 Drishti - the aspect
5.7.1 Types of Aspect
5.8 Argala - the intervention
5.9 Arudha - the mounted image
5.10 Yoga - the planetary combinations
5.11 Shadbala - the sixfold strength
5.12 Ashtakavarga
6 Classical Jyotish / Vedic astrology Treatises/Books/Texts
6.1 Treatises on Nativity
6.2 Treatises on Hindu Electional Astrology
6.3 Samhitas — treatises on mundane, portents, omens, meteorology etc.
6.4 Siddhanta — Astronomy and Mathematics and its application to astrology
7 Notes and references
8 Partial bibliography
9 See also
10 External links



[edit] Foundations
Part of a series on
Hindu scriptures

Vedas
Rigveda · Yajurveda
Samaveda · Atharvaveda
Vedic divisions
Samhita · Brahmana
Aranyaka · Upanishad
Upanishads
Aitareya · Bṛhadāraṇyaka
Īṣa · Taittirīya · Chāndogya
Kena · Muṇḍaka
Māṇḍūkya ·Praśna
Śvetaśvatara
Vedanga
Śikshā · Chandas
Vyakarana · Nirukta
Jyotisha · Kalpa
Itihasa
Mahabharata · Ramayana
Other scriptures
Smriti · Purana
Bhagavad Gita · Sutra
Pancharatra · Tantra
Kumara Vyasa Bharata · Stotra
Hanuman Chalisa · Ramacharitamanas
Shikshapatri · Vachanamrut
See also
Mythology
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Jyotish's many lineages or paramparas emphasize that its study is a sadhana or technique of mental and existential development. In modern times, it is a chief source of reference for many Hindus and other astrologers. Vedic astrologers will frequently prescribe special stones or meditation techniques using mantras to those facing difficult or unclear futures as predicted by means consistent with Jyotish methodology. While in past centuries, Brahmins had been the primary practitioners of Jyotish, since the last century, a renaissance of study of Jyotish and other Vedic sciences emerged in India and the west.[citation needed]

The foundation of jyotish is the notion of bandhu of the Vedas, which is the connection between the microcosm and the macrocosm. Surya, the Sun, is a manifestation of Vishnu, a central aspect of the Supreme, and is also the Atman within man. The term "Vedic astrology" has been recently introduced by American and Western astrologers in the 1980s and 1990s, leading to collaborative organizations such as the now-international [1].

In India, Jyotish is still commonly used to aid in important decisions in life. In Hindu culture, newborns are traditionally named based on their jyotish charts, and jyotish concepts are pervasive in the organization of the calendar and holidays as well as in many areas of life. Astrolgy is perceived to be vital in Indian culture, in making decisions made about marriage, opening a new business, and moving into a new home.


[edit] Branches of Vedic / Hindu Astrology
Vedic astrology (Aagam Shaastra / Jyotisha- futurity sciences) has three main branches:

Siddhanta (Astronomy): Astronomy & its application to astrology
Samhita (Mundane astrology): Covers Mundane astrology, predicting important events related to countries such as war, earth quakes, political events, astro - meteorology, financial positions, electional astrology; house & construction related matters (Vaastu Shaastra), animals, portents & omens etc.
Hora (Predictive astrology):
This branch has the following different styles / sub branches:-


Jaatak Shaastra / Hora Shaastra (Natal Astrology / horoscopy): Prediction based on individual horoscope.
Muhurt or Muhurtha (Electional astrology): Selection of beneficial time to initiate an activity to get maximum fruition from the life activities.
Swar Shaastra (Phonetical astrology): Predictions based on name & sounds.
Prashna (Horary astrology): Predictions based on time when a question is asked by querent / querist.
Ankjyotisha / Kabala (Numerology): A branch of astrology based on numbers.
Nadi Astrology: An ancient treatise having detailed predictions for individuals.
Tajik Shaastra / Varsha Phal (Annual Horoscopy): Astrology based on annual solar returns.
Jaimini Sutras: A non-conventional method of timing of events based on Famous Indian astrologer, Acharya Jaimini.
Nastjaatakam (Lost Horoscopy): Art of tracing / construction of lost horoscopes.
Streejaatak (female astrology): A special branch of astrology dealing with female nativities.
Other related branches


Graha Samudriki (Astro- Palmistry): Palm reading as horoscope.
Hasta Rekha / Samudrika Shaastra (Palmistry): Based on palm reading.
Padatal Shaastra (Plantarology): Based on reading of lines & signs on the sole.
Shakun Shaastra (Omens): Predictions based on omens & portents.
Swapna Vidhya : Interpretation of dreams.
Kapal Vidya (Phrenology)
Aakriti Vidya (Physiognomy): Based on structure & moles on the body.
Kerala Jyotisha: Predictions based on querrist reply regarding name of flower or colour or touching part of body.
Remedial Astrology: Various modes of propitiation of planets based on planetary positions in nativity, transits, elections & for religious functions.
In Vedic literature guidance is given on two other branches viz, Electional astrology and Remedial astrology.


[edit] Hindu and Western astrology
The most easily referred to difference between the two lies in the method of measurement of the Zodiac. Vedic astrology uses primarily the sidereal zodiac (in which stars are considered to be the fixed background against which the motion of the planets is measured), whereas most Western astrology uses the tropical zodiac (the motion of the planets is measured against the position of the Sun on the Spring equinox). This difference becomes only noticeable over time, after the course of several centuries, as a result of the precession of the equinoxes. Synchronically, the two systems are identical, with just a shift of the origin of the ecliptic longitude by about 22 degrees or days, resulting on the placement of planets in the previous sign in Western charts about 80% of the time.

Both Jyotish and Western traditions have existed for millennia. Vedic astrology includes several nuanced sub-systems of interpretation and prediction incorporating unique sacralized elements not found elsewhere, such as its specific system of lunar mansions (called nakshatras, encompassing a pantheon of archetypal deities). The nakshatras are used to pick auspicious times of day or month for every human activity as well as to provide insight into the motivations and guiding characteristics of humans and events coming under their influence. Nakshatra cycles, or dashas, are developing a reputation in contemporary culture for the accuracy with which they time events.

A further unique concept in jyotish rarely seen in Western astrology is the concept of Dashas - a mathematical analyses that breaks down human or the subject's lifetime into various sub-periods based on the location of Moon at birth.

Predictions in jyotish incorporate various elements around the birth chart - influences of transits (similar to Western Astrology though more focused on houses or bhavas) as well as Dashas.


[edit] Modern approaches to Jyotisha
Vedic astrology includes a number of techniques and approaches that have accumulated over the eons with little consensus on what gives consistently accurate results. This collection of techniques and approaches is sometimes referred to as Classical or Traditional Jyotish. However, the march towards new insights and applications continues in the modern epoch, as in earlier times, with the objective as ever to achieve more precise analysis and accurate predictions. In the 1960s, H.R. Seshadri Iyer, introduced a system including the yoga point, which has become popular in also the West. In the early 1990s, V.K. Choudhry introduced the Systems' Approach for Interpreting Horoscopes, a simplified system of Jyotish. Another modern school of Jyotish, is KP (Krishnamurti Paddhati), developed by Shri Krishnamurti from India. It mainly bases the analyses more on the stars (nakshatras) by sub-dividing the signs (rashis).


[edit] Fundamentals of Jyotisha
Vedic astrology i.e. Jyotish contains some concepts that are not found in any other school of astrology. Some of the important building blocks are discussed below.


[edit] Graha - the planets
Graha literally means any heavenly body or point that can cast an impact on human affairs. It may be translated as planet for ease. Graha also includes lunar nodes (Rahu and Ketu) and sub-planets (upgrahas) which are not planets but no less effective than planets. The extra-saturnine planets (Uranus, Neptune and Pluto) are not included in the category of Graha.

Here are the list of nine grahas (heavenly bodies or "planets"):

Abbreviation Sanskrit Name English Name Represents
Sy or Su Surya Sun Soul
Ch or Mo Chandra Moon Mind
Ma Mangala or Angaraka or Kuja Mars energetic action, confidence and ego
Bu or Me Budha Mercury Communication
Gu or Ju Guru or Brihaspati Jupiter the great teacher
Sk or Ve Sukra Venus wealth, pleasure and reproduction
Sa Sanaiscarya, Shani, or Śani Saturn learning the hard way. Career and Longevity
Ra Rahu Ascending/North Lunar Node often described as a demon who does his best to plunge any area of one's life he controls into chaos
Ke Ketu Descending/South Lunar Node supernatural influences


[edit] Rashi - the signs
Sidereal zodiac is also an imaginary belt of 360 degrees (like tropical zodiac), divided into 12 equal parts. Each twelfth part (of 30 degrees) is called sign or rashi.

They also recognize twelve zodiac signs, or Rashis:

Number Sanskrit Name Western Name
1 Mesha Aries
2 Vrishabha Taurus
3 Mithuna Gemini
4 Karka Cancer
5 Simha Leo
6 Kanya Virgo
7 Tula Libra
8 Vrishchika Scorpio
9 Dhanus Sagittarius
10 Makara Capricorn
11 Kumbha Aquarius
12 Meena Pisces

One's Ascendant, or lagna, the rashi which is rising on the eastern horizon at the time of one's birth, is the most influential and important one. Of lesser importance but still some impact is the Janma Rashi, the rashi in which the moon lay while one was born.

There are three different Jyotish chart notations, which are functionally equivalent but quite different in appearance. The following images show the same birth chart in the two main notations - North Indian and South Indian. The third notation is followed in Eastern parts of India.


In the North Indian notation, the house positions are fixed (1st house top middle, with the rest following in counterclockwise order) and the signs of the zodiac are indicated by numbers in the chart (1 for Aries, and so on).
Conversely, in the South Indian notation, the signs of the zodiac have fixed positions (Aries always occupies the 2nd box from the left in the top row, with the rest following in clockwise order), and the first house is marked "As" (for ascendant) with the rest following in clockwise order.


The charts are broken into twelve sections, houses or Bhavas, each of which is related to a rashi in an equal house system.


[edit] Bhava - the houses
Two house system is in practice among follower of Jyotish. First one is what Western astrologers call the whole sign house system while the second one is Sripathi akin to Porphyry house system. KP also incorporates Placidus house system. The significance of 12 houses are as follow.

1st house Native, Appearance, Character, Purpose of Life
2nd house Wealth, Family, Meal, Early Education
3rd house Younger coborn, Communication (phone, sms, chatting etc)
4th house Mother, Education, Home, Property, Vehicle
5th house Children, Lover, Recreation, Devotion, Creativity
6th house Health, Maternal uncle and aunt, Litigation, Servants
7th house Spouse, Business partner, Death, Trade, Agreement
8th house Sex, Longevity, Failure, Family of spouse, Dowry
9th house Luck, Higher learning, Travelling, Religion, Mentor
10th house Profession, Status, Power, Father, Mother-in-law
11th house Friends, Hopes, Earnings, Elder coborn, Daughter/Son-in-law
12th house Expenses, Sleep, Donation, Foreign stay

[edit] Nakshatra - the lunar asterism
Like sign or rashi, zodiac may also divided into 27 equal parts (of 13 degree 20 minutes each). This division of zodiac is called Nakshatra. Traditionally nakshatra position of Moon is computed for native's mental make up and calculations of planetary periods (dashas). Each nakshatra is further partitioned into four equal segments known as charan or pad. Nakshatra contains an important place in Astrological match making, Mahurtha, Panchanga and Prashana affairs.

See Nakshatra for list of lunar mansions


[edit] Veshaish Lagna - Special Ascendants
Sage Parasara mentioned a few special lagnas before mentioning the results of various divisional charts and houses. His mention that houses can be counted from special lagnas clearly indicates that he wanted special lagnas to be used instead of lagna for some clear purposes. Some important special lagnas are follows.

Chandra Lagna (ascendant counted from natal Moon sign - very important langa)
Surya Lagna (ascendant counted from natal Sun sign)
Karak Lagna (significator taken as ascendant for all grahas)
Varnada Lagna (for social company)
Shri Lagna (for prosperity and marriage)
Indu Lagna (for wealth)
Hora Lagna (for financial prosperity)
Gati Lagna (for name and fame)

[edit] Varga - the divisional charts
The term Varga means Division and refers to the various divisions of a sign, based on which Divisional Charts (or simply D-Charts) is constructed. Divisional charts (Vargas or Amsas) are very peculiar to Jyotish, and they are not found in other systems of astrology. Ancient Indian Mentor and Expert, Maharishi Parashara describes 16 divisional charts which are as follows;

Rasi D-1: Body, Phyiscal Matters and All Generall Maters
Hora D-2: Wealth, Family
Drekkana D-3: Siblings, Nature
Chaturthamsa D-4: Fortune and Property
Saptamsa D-7: Children/Progeny
Navamsa D-9: Wife, Dharma and Relationships
Dasamsa D-10: Actions in Society, Profession
Dwadasamsa D-12: Parents
Shodasamsa D-16: Vehicles, Travelling and Comforts
Vimsamsa D-20: Spiritual Pursuits
ChaturVimsamsa D-24: Education, Learning and Knowledge
SaptaVimsamsa D-27: Strengths and Weakness
Trimsamsa: D-30 Evils, Failure, Bad Luck
KhaVedamsa D-40: Maternal Legacy
AkshaVedamsa D-45: Paternal Legacy
Shastiamsa D-60: Past birth/Karma
Maharishi Jaimini explaines 4 more divisional charts. They include;

Panchamsa D-5: Fame & Power
Shasthamsa D-6: Health
Ashtamsa D8: Unexpected Troubles
EkaDasamsa/Rudramsa D-11: Death and Destruction
Apart form Rashi (D-1); Navamsha (D-9), Drekkana (D-3), Dasamsa (D-10) and Trimsamsa (D-30) are considered significant divisional charts.


[edit] Drishti - the aspect
Aspect is one of the most important phenomena that not only interlinks the planets with each other but also playing a role of bridge between signs. In Jyotish the word Drishti is tantamount to Aspect, means glance or sight. It is the transfer of influences to another graha or rashi as a result of their situation in relation to each other.


[edit] Types of Aspect
The hierarchy of aspect can be categorized into two types as;

1- Aspect based on Planet or Sign’s Nature
2- Aspect based on Relative Distance
1- Aspect based on Planet or Sign’s Nature
This is the system of aspect studied in Vedic Astrology. This holds that certain planet or sign sights another planet or sign depends on its nature. This can also be divided into two kinds, namely;

Graha Drishti
Rashi Drishti
Graha Drishti should prefer when analyzing


Nakshatra Dasha
Chart with respect to the Moon
Sahams i.e. Arabic Parts
Rashi Drishti should prefer when analyzing


Rashi Dasha
Chart with respect to Special Lagnas (AL GL, HL etc)
Vargas i.e. Divisional Charts
2- Aspect based on Relative Distance
This is the same method in vogue in Western Astrology. Tajik Varshphal (Vedic Solar Return Chart) applies this technique to erect 14 different types of aspects also known as varshphala yogas.


[edit] Argala - the intervention
Significations of various houses are interlinked. Support provided by one house to another is called Argala and the obstruction offered to supporting houses is called Virodha argala.

Graha (planets) in 2nd, 4th and 11th house cause argalas on a given house, whereas the planets in 12th, 10th and 3rd cause virodha argalas to 2nd, 4th and 11th respectively.

Banefic generally give shubha argalas, malefic offer papa argalas. If however a malefic has an argala on house of which it is a significator, such an aragala can be termed as shubha. For example a malefics in 10th house cast papa argala to 9th house as 10th house is second from 9th. This may make the native non religious and give bad relations with boss/teacher, provided there is no virodh argala from 8th.


[edit] Arudha - the mounted image
The term Arudha Pada is also known as "Pada". Arudha literally means "mount" and refers to the IMAGE of a sign falling on another due to "reflection of the rays emanating from it and being reflected by its lord.

Keeping the reflection in view, the Karaka (Significator) can be taken to be the Moon. Count from a sign to its lord. Then count as many signs from the lord to arrive at the ARUDHA PADA. For example, if the Lagna Lord is in the fifth house, then count five signs from the Lagna lord to arrive at the ninth house. This ninth house becomes the arudha Pada for the Lagna.

Exception: The Arudha Pada cannot be in the same sign or the seventh from it. In case this happens, then choose the tenth house therefrom. For example, if the Lagna Lord is in the 4th house, then the Arudha lagna should be in the 4th from the 4th house i.e. the 7th house. But since this is not allowed, the tenth therefrom should be chosen. The tenth from the 7th house is the 4th house and the 4th house becomes the Arudha Lagna.

Arudha of 1st house is also called PADA LAGNA or ARUDHA LAGNA. Arudha lagna stands for "manifestation of self, in this maya (illusory) world". In this manner Arudha Pada can be computed for all the houses. They are called Dhana Pada (2nd), Bhratripada (3rd), Matri Pada (4th), Mantrapada (5th), Satrupada (6th), Dara Pada (7th), Roga pada (8th), Bhagyapada (9th), Rajyapada (10th), Labhapada (11th) and Upapada (12th). Jaimini discussed Arudha lagna (AL) and Upapada (UL) extinsively in his classical treatise.


[edit] Yoga - the planetary combinations
In Jyotish, Yoga means yoka or combination. Yogas are certain planetary combinations. Jyotish classics explaines hundred of thousands of yogas. Chandra (lunar combinations for general luck), Dhana (wealth related) and Raja (power and success related) yogas are often studied.


[edit] Shadbala - the sixfold strength
Shadbala means sixfold strength. Although these strengths are combinedly used for finding the effect of planets on the lives of the natives, there is more use of the strengths and we get the clue of those uses from their names. These strengths need not be used only predicting the results of the dasa, however, can be used for normal horoscopic interpretation.

Shad Bal consists of the following strengths

1. Sthan Bal (Positional strength)
2. Dig Bal (Directional strength)
3. Kaal Bal (Temporalstrength), inclusive of Ayan Bal (Equinoctial strength)
4. Chesht Bal (Motional strength)
5. Naisargika Bal (Natural strength)
6. Drik Bal (Aspectual strength)
These strengths are computed for the seven Grahas from Sun to Saturn. The lunar nodes (Rahu and Ketu) are not considered.


[edit] Ashtakavarga

[edit] Classical Jyotish / Vedic astrology Treatises/Books/Texts

[edit] Treatises on Nativity
Skanda Hora or Jyotishmati(God Brahma)
Brihat Prajapatya (Daksha Prajapati)
Vasishta Hora (Sage Vasishta)
Garga Hora (Sage Garga)
Kousika Hora (Sage Viswamitra)
Sounaka Hora (Sage Sounaka)
Brihat Parasara Hora Sastram (Sage Parasara)
Jaimini Sutram (Sage Jaimini)
Brigu Sutram (Sage Brigu)
Vedanga Jyotish (Lagadha)
Yavaneswara Hora or Yavanajataka (Sage Yavaneswara)
Sphujudwaja Hora (King Sphujidwaja)
MeenarajaHora or Vridha Yavana Hora (King Meenaraja)
Saravali (Kalyana Verma)
Brihat Jatakam (Varahamihira)
Phala deepika (Mantreswara)
Hora Saram (Prithu Yasas)
Sarvartha Chintamani (Venkatesa Daivajna)
Hora Ratna (Acharya Balabhadra)
Jataka Parijatam (Vaidyanatha Deekshita)
Chatkara Chintamani
Kashyapa Hora
Poorva Kalamritam (Ganaka Kalidasa)
Uttara Kalamritam (Ganaka Kalidasa)
Suka Nadi
Deva Keralam or Chandra Kala Nadi (Achyuta)
Tajaka Neelakanthi (Neelakantha)
Pranasanushata Padhati
Prasna Ratna
Prasna Margam (Panakkattu Sankaran Nambootiri Brahmin)
Daivajna Vallabha (Varahamihira)
Kaalaprakashika

[edit] Treatises on Hindu Electional Astrology
Adbhuta Sagaar
Brihannarad
Brihatdaivygyaranjan
Brihatjyotisaar
Daivygyamanoranjan Daivygyamanohar Granth
Ganak Mandan
Gian Manjari
Hindu Electional Astrology (V K Shridhar)
Jaganmohan Granth
Jyotiprakash
Jyotirnibandh
Jyotish Ratan
Jyotishsaar
Jyotish Chintamani
Jyotirvidabharnam
Kaal Khanda
Kaal Nirnaya Deepika
Kaal Prakashika
Madhaveeyam
Muhurtarnava
Muhurt Bhaskar
Muhurt Chintamani (Daivygya Ram)
Muhurt Chudamani
Muhurt Darpaan
Muhurt Deepak
Muhurt Deepika
Muhurt Ganpati
Muhurt Kalpadrum
Muhurt Maala
Muhurt Manjari
Muhurt Martanda
Muhurt Muktaavali
Muhurt Prakash
Muhurt Padavi
Muhurt Saagar
Muhurt Sangraha
Muhurt Tattva
Muhurt Tattvapradeep
Muhurtarnava
Muktaavali
Narpatijacharyaaswarodaya
Naardeeya
Nibandh Chudamani
Poorva Kaalamrit (2)
Rajmartanda
Ratan Koosh
Ratanmaala
Samarsaar
Shiv Swarodaya
Vaivahaar Pradeep
Vivah Kautuhal
Vivah Patal
Vivah Pradeep
Vivah Saar
Vivah Vrindavan
Vyvahaarochchya
Yoga Yatra
Vyvaharsaar

[edit] Samhitas — treatises on mundane, portents, omens, meteorology etc.
Brahmarshi Samhita
Brihaspati Samhita
Brihat Samhita
Parasara Samhita
Garga Samhita
Rishiputra Samhita
Guru Samhita
Kashyap Samhita
Lomasha Samhita
Maanav Samhita
Naagarjun Samhita
Narad Samhita
Shakalya Samhita
Samaas Samhita
Samhita Pradeep
Samhita Sidhhanta
Satya Samhita
Sur Samhita
Vaikhaan Samhita
Vasist Samhita

[edit] Siddhanta — Astronomy and Mathematics and its application to astrology
Ancient Surya Sidhata (Maya)
Brahma Sidhanta (God Brahma)
Lomasa Sidhanta (Sage Lomasa)
Poulisa Sidhanta (Sage Poulisa)
Pitamaha Sidhanta (God Brahma)
Vasishta Sidhata (Sage Vasishta)
Vridha Vasishta Sidhanta (Sage Vridha Vasishta)
Garga Sidhanta (Sage Garga)
Parasara Sidhanta (Sage Parasara)
Pancha Sidhantika (Varaha Mihira)
Modern Surya Sidhanta (Aryabhata II)

[edit] Notes and references
^ http://www.councilvedicastrology.org/ Council of Vedic Astrology

[edit] Partial bibliography
"27 Celestial Portals", Trivedi, Lotus Press, Twin Lakes, Wisconsin, ISBN 0-940985-84-5
"A Textbook of Varshaphala: Vedic Astrology Technique of Annual Horoscopy", Dr. K S Charak, Uma Publications, New Delhi, India, ISBN 81-901008-1-5
"Applications of Yogini Dasha for Brilliant Predictions", Rajeev Jhanji and N.K. Sharma, Systems Vision, New Delhi, India, ISBN 81-86374-00-0
"Astrology of the Seers", Frawley, Lotus Press, Twin Lakes, Wisconsin, ISBN 0-914955-89-6
"Dots of Destiny: Applications of Ashtakvarga", Vinay Aditya, Systems Vision, New Delhi, India, ISBN 81-86824-04-9
"Elements of Vedic Astrology", Dr. K S Charak, Uma Publications, New Delhi, India, ISBN 81-901008-0-7
"Essentials of Medical Astrology", Dr. K S Charak, Uma Publications, New Delhi, India, ISBN 81-901008-3-1
"Fundamentals of Vedic Astrology, Vedic Astrologer's Handbook Vol. 1", Behari, Lotus Press, Twin Lakes, Wisconsin, ISBN 0-940985-52-7
"Introduction to Vedic Astrology" By Pundit. Sanjay Rath
"New Techniques of Prediction", Vols. 1 & 2, H.R. Seshadri Iyer, Rohini Printers, Bangalore, India, 1963
"Key of Life: Astrology of the Lunar Nodes", Trivedi, Lotus Press, Twin Lakes, Wisconsin, ISBN 0-940985-33-0
"Ayurvedic Astrology: Self Healing Through the Stars", Frawley, Lotus Press, Twin Lakes, Wisconsin, ISBN 0-940985-88-8
"Light on Life: An Introduction to the Astrology of India", de Fouw and Svoboda, Lotus Press, Twin Lakes, Wisconsin, ISBN 0-940985-69-1
"Myths and Symbols of Vedic Astrology", Behari, Lotus Press, Twin Lakes, Wisconsin, ISBN 0-940985-51-9
"Nakshatras: The Lunar Mansions of Vedic Astrology", Harness, Lotus Press, Twin Lakes, Wisconsin, ISBN 0-914955-83-7
"Planets in the Signs and Houses: Vedic Astrologer's Handbook Vol. 2", Behari, Lotus Press, Twin Lakes, Wisconsin, ISBN 0-940985-53-5
"Systems' Approach for Interpreting Horoscopes", Third Revised Edition, 2002, V.K.Choudhry, Sagar Publications, New Delhi, India. ISBN 81-7082-017-0.
"Predictive Techniques in Varshaphala: Annual Horoscopy", Dr. K S Charak, Uma Publications, New Delhi, India, ISBN 81-86824-03-0
"Subtleties of Medical Astrology", Dr. K S Charak, Uma Publications, New Delhi, India, ISBN 81-901008-5-8
"Surya The Sun God", Dr. K S Charak, Uma Publications, New Delhi, India, ISBN 81-901008-2-3
"Yogas in Astrology", Dr. K S Charak, Uma Publications, New Delhi, India, ISBN 81-901008-4-X
"Surya The Sun God", Dr. K S Charak, Uma Publications, New Delhi, India, ISBN 81-901008-2-3
"Yogas in Astrology", Dr. K S Charak, Uma Publications, New Delhi, India, ISBN 81-901008-4-X

[edit] See also
Astrology Portal
Bhrigu Samhita
Culture of India
David Frawley
Hindu
Hindu calendar
Hindu cosmology
Hinduism
History of India
Sri Yukteswar Giri
Vedas

[edit] External links
Vedic Astrology Magazine
VedicScholar
modern writings including research articles in Jyotisha
Free North Indian Horosope with Narration
Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jyotisha"
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jyotisha[/tscii:0aeb87f186]

[thamiz]

Nonetheless, there is no stronger evidence of the death of a language than the dead language itself.

If one can see that and admit that, of course!

I am sure the "alive" language of today might well 'die' when its time comes! :cool:

[Rohit]

Science Fiction and Pseudoscience - Interest in Science Fiction

Pseudoscience is defined here as claims presented so that they appear [to be] scientific even though they lack supporting evidence and plausibility.

Although scientists are concerned about scientific illiteracy, including the public's gullibility regarding pseudoscience, few choose to say much about it.

According to renowned physicist Stephen Hawking, "science fiction is useful both for stimulating the imagination and for diffusing fear of the future."


An excellent example is Stephen Hawking. Before the onset of illness, Hawking had refined his problem-solving skills (by problem-solving I mean mathematical and scientific ability) to such a tremendous extent, that when his ability to communicate with others was severely curtailed, his ability to reason nevertheless remained intact.
How surprising, Stephen Hawking can communicate in English :!: How can he communicate if he is ill :?: It is a logical fallacy for him to communicate while being ill, as an ill person simply cannot communicate. :idea: :arrow: Maybe it is a science and technological fiction; or else, the divine planets of geocentric planetary system must have performed their infallible, egocentric tricks and enabled him to communicate in English. :lol: :lol: :lol:

How Widespread Is Belief in Pseudoscience?

Belief in pseudoscience is relatively widespread.

Is Belief in Pseudoscience Harmful?

Belief in pseudoscience may indicate a lack of critical thinking skills.

Concerns have been raised, especially in the science community, about widespread belief in pseudoscientific phenomena.

People drawn to pseudoscience long for a world that is some other way than the way it is.

Pseudoscience is a sort of background noise, annoying, but rarely rising to a level that seriously interferes with genuine scientific discourse.

Most of this miscommunication involved the promotion of pseudoscience and the inaccurate portrayal of the scientific process.

Interest in science fiction may affect the way people think about or relate to science.

It is useful to discover whether interest in science fiction is a possible indicator of positive attitudes toward S&T.

According to one group studying such phenomena, pseudoscience topics include yogi flying, therapeutic touch, astrology, fire walking, voodoo magical thinking, Uri Gellar, alternative medicine, channeling, Carlos hoax, psychic hotlines and detectives, near-death experiences, Unidentified Flying Objects (UFOs), the Bermuda Triangle, homeopathy, faith healing, and reincarnation (Committee for the Scientific Investigation of Claims of the Paranormal).

More than 25 percent of the public believes in astrology, that is, that the position of the stars and planets can affect people's lives.

In one recent poll, 28 percent of respondents said that they believed in astrology; 52 percent said that they did not believe in it; and 18 percent said that they were not sure (Newport and Strausberg 2001).

Nine percent of those queried in the 2001 NSF survey said that astrology was "very scientific" and 32 percent answered "sort of scientific"; 56 percent said that it was not at all scientific.

Scientists and others believe that the media, and in particular, the entertainment industry, may be at least partially responsible for the large numbers of people who believe in astrology, ESP, alien abductions, and other forms of pseudoscience.

http://www.nsf.gov/statistics/seind02/c7/c7s5.htm

:D :) :thumbsup:

[SRS]

Much worse than "pseudoscience" is distortion. While "pseudoscience" may have some merit, distortion is blatantly false and can only be considered outright desperation.

Desperate attempt to equate "karma" with adaptation:


12. Adaptation to the changing environment, whether it is for mere survival, striving for rational knowledge or attaining Nirvana, adaptive actions from individuals, groups, institutes, societies, civilisations, nations etc. are invariably involved, which is nothing but what is conceptualised as karma in Buddhism.

More desperation:


13. Collective failure to adapt suitably to the changing environment, which is nothing but collective bad karma, entails bad consequences.

18. Like scientific evolution; whereby higher organisms evolve from the lower ones; Buddhism does not cast-off devolution, whereby higher organisms can devolve to a lower life.



Unlike the above desperate attempts to grasp fictions out of thin air, the fact that the Vedic Indians had an elaborate zodiac system in place is also evidence that they had an extensive knowledge of astronomy, which implies also an extensive knowledge of mathematics. It is also likely that the same group of persons possessed sophisticated instrumentation for viewing the positions of planets, stars, and constellations, which implies they also had extensive knowledge of chemistry and physics. Unfortunately, there are those who are unable to see how event A implies event B. Correspondinly precisely to what I said before, that the average intelligence of a population, given any normalized distribution, never proceeds beyond what can be labeled "mediocre", reflected in the fact that despite two decades or so of schooling, the vast majority will not see the connection between simple event A and simple event B without being explicitly told. Therefore validating my hypothesis that it makes no sense to judge the cognitive development of a society based on such factors as language when in fact it can be ascertained that more advanced cognitive functions, such as problem-solving, show the same dismal distribution over any normalized range relative to any society that has ever existed in human history.

[thamiz]

So what is the origin of urdu and hindi or both ? :roll:

[Rohit]

Unfortunately, there are those who are unable to see how event A implies event B.
Exactly, and it clearly gets reflected in the helpless attempts to disassociate karma and/or collective karma from environmemtal adaptation.

Karma in Buddhism is nothing but the universal law of cause and effect; and that everything is inter-linked through this continuous chain of cause and effect, which simultaneously accounts for what is inherited from the past and what contributes to the future.

Therefore, there is a maintained causal connection between actions (cause) whether carried out individually or collectively and resulting consequences (effects). Anyone with some intellect and conceptual grasp can see this principle at work without any difficulty.

The history of India itself is the strongest ever proof of collective bad karma and resulting consequences, inviting destitute conditions for hundreds of milllions of Indians, driving them into subhuman conditions.

Therefore, no matter how much one tries to bury his/her head under the sand due to utter helplessness, the facts wouldn't go away; instead the situation would increase the intensity of despondency even more as it already has, and as it would continue to do so. Just keep watching.

:D :) :thumbsup:

[Rohit]

So what is the origin of urdu and hindi or both ? :roll:
Yes, the ongoing discharge of all forms of fallacies and blunders have been the main cause of diversions, derailing the whole topic. Now onwards, no more entertaining of such fallacies, blunders and diversions; and this should be my final resolution.

Let us get back to the main topic.

Hindi and Urdu, both were developed collectively by Hindus and Muslims. Therefore, it goes without saying that the event happened during Mogul rule. Both languages have the same general pronunciation, grammar, and vocabulary, but differ in their script. Hindi is written in devanagri, while Urdu is written in Perso-Arabic. The difference between the two languages is largely due to politics and religion; therefore, Hindus favour Hindi and Muslims favour Urdu. Other languages have extensively influenced both these languages. Hindi looks to Sanskrit for its vocabulary, while Urdu looks to Persian and Arabic. Both languages have borrowed extensively from English, turning Hindi into Hinglish.

Since both languages have inherently relied on amalgamation of religious and poetic thoughts, both have miserably failed in nurturing 'scientific way of thinking' and 'scientific way of doing things', rendering both languages hopelessly incapable in dealing with the subjects matters of science, engineering, mathematics in general and other advanced, intellectually demanding fields of anthropological importance.

So, one can clearly see how all these revolve around collective karma and resulting consequences.

[thamiz]

Thanks Rohit! :)

Let me see whether I can come up with some questions to understand better! :)

[Rohit]

Thanks Rohit! :)

Let me see whether I can come up with some questions to understand better! :)
You are most welcome, Thamiz. I will do my best to answer your questions. So, please go ahead. :)

[thamiz]

Let us get back to the main topic.

Hindi and Urdu, both were developed collectively by Hindus and Muslims. Therefore, it goes without saying that the event happened during Mogul rule. Both languages have the same general pronunciation, grammar, and vocabulary, but differ in their script. Hindi is written in devanagri, while Urdu is written in Perso-Arabic. The difference between the two languages is largely due to politics and religion; therefore, Hindus favour Hindi and Muslims favour Urdu. Other languages have extensively influenced both these languages. Hindi looks to Sanskrit for its vocabulary, while Urdu looks to Persian and Arabic. Both languages have borrowed extensively from English, turning Hindi into Hinglish.

:)


Since both languages have inherently relied on amalgamation of religious and poetic thoughts, both have miserably failed in nurturing 'scientific way of thinking' and 'scientific way of doing things', rendering both languages hopelessly incapable in dealing with the subjects matters of science, engineering, mathematics in general and other advanced, intellectually demanding fields of anthropological importance.

I never thought, a language can influence one's thinking or thoughts.

I was thinking that the scientific development was fueled by the environmental difficulties faced by the people. Because the whites lived in a extremely cold conditions, they had to find "scientific solutions" to deal with their day to day life.

I am told, the reason bengali brahmins eat meat and fish and etc is that because they went throgh a "very diffult time for getting food" sometime ago, just like "chinese" went through. So for survival they started eating non-veg. Now you can see Bebgali brahmins have a different philosophy. So I thought the survival is the key for human to act.

Anyway, my point here it is need for survival and not the language one speaks helped the 'sceintific developments" in the western part. Whereas we all had a 'decent weather" and spend more time in "philosophical" as pects of life rather than scientific developments

See, west never had people like BudhdhA. They just went after survival, kill anybody if you need to do that for your survival. They were more practical than philosophical like us.

Anyway, that was my notion for us not making much scientific developments.

Now you are giving me a new interpretation for lack of scientific developments! :)

[Rohit]

Thank you dear Thamiz.


I never thought, a language can influence one's thinking or thoughts.
First, let me make this absolutely sure that you have undestood what I have said earlier and so far. If not, then please read the following very carefully; only then the rest will make any sense.

Like I have said it quite clearly and said it countless times that "Language reflects thoughts of people, and thoughts get expressed through language."

So what came first? Obviously thoughts came first.

But how can one ever know what those thoughts were and then correct or refine them if they did not reflect or correspond to truths, facts and/or reality? There is no other way but through communication of some sort, and language is the most powerful means of expressing those thoughts. If this is clear enough then the rest is not difficult to grasp.

For example:

I read you declaring quite often in your post that "I thought this.......and I thought that........about such and such things".

Now just ponder over this and the rest of your own post or posts and honestly tell me how much in your posts is unconditionally your own thoughts and how much is shaped by what you have learnt form your parents, school, college and university education, your friends, your social environment, your professional environment and whatever came in your way as communicable thoughts?

If you ponder over this seriously, obtain clear understanding of your own thought process, their origin and sources of modifications; and then post you detailed response on that, I am sure everything that I have said so far will become absolutely clear as intended; and only then it will be worth we discussing further implications of the entire process.

:D :) :thumbsup:

[thamiz]

Dear Rohit!

Thank you! :)

I will do that exercise as you suggested and get back to you if I have further questions or problems! :)

[Rohit]

Dear Thamiz, please do not hesitate to ask any question and/or to make any suggestion. You are most welcome for both. :)

[SRS]

I was thinking that the scientific development was fueled by the environmental difficulties faced by the people. Because the whites lived in a extremely cold conditions, they had to find "scientific solutions" to deal with their day to day life.

Very good backwards reasoning on your part. Only those who living in "cold climates" will seek "scientific solution." Kindly list the scientific accomplishments of the Vikings here, as well as the reasons for the fall of the Roman Empire. Then we can assess the validity of your "cold climate' rubbish.


Anyway, my point here it is need for survival and not the language one speaks helped the 'sceintific developments" in the western part. Whereas we all had a 'decent weather" and spend more time in "philosophical" as pects of life rather than scientific developments

-deleted-

Weather does not affect intellectual outlook. How do you explain the Romans, Greeks, and Egyptians? Where do you think the "West" obtained a numerical system from?

The Westerners did not realize the importance of bathing until the 18th century. That is why, in the 14th century, a disease called the "Black Plague" wiped out millions of Europeans. The West did not heavily invest in science until the so-called "Renaissance." Before the "Renaissance", it was thought in the same "West" that the Sun goes around the Earth. Are these the scientific accomplishments you are referring to? Now, these facts were all well-known in the East for thousands of years. Not just but China as well. Only a fool will presume to think that the rest of the world will sit idly by, waiting 14 centuries for some lice-infected Westerner to convince the "Pope" that the Earth goes around the Sun.

Clowns like you will deny the importance of Vedic science, but in the same breath hold the Buddha as champion of all intellectual achievements. Where do you presume Buddha gained his knowledge from?


See, west never had people like BudhdhA. They just went after survival, kill anybody if you need to do that for your survival. They were more practical than philosophical like us.

That is the whole point. Only uneducated unhygeneic barbarians will build huge boats and forcibly invade other nations. Why did the Chinese not build huge boats and invade other nations?

[kannannn]

[tscii:a308ec80a1]Did Bhaskar II discover calculus?
[/tscii:a308ec80a1]
I seem to have missed this. Didn't Archimedes deal with integration much earlier in the 3rd century BC?

[Rohit]

Didn't I tell you; just keep watching. Here goes poor "TCB" completely :x. :lol: :lol: :lol: :thumbsup:

[Rohit]

First of all, no one can be held responsible for such sheer lack of grasp of real facts, except one's own cognitively degenerated, egocentric as well as geocentric biases.

Let me show and prove how and why.

Based on the chronological development of philosophical doctrines in India, the developments and evolution of religions in India, clearly and evidently show that the current form of Hinduism based on VedaAnta (literally means "The End of the Vedas") - i.e. Advaita, VishithaAdvaita, Dvaita, Bhagavad-Gita etc.-all came long after Buddha, except the four Vedas and a few minor Upanishads, the status and contents of which Buddha had categorically rejected long before gaining his world-famous enlightenment. In fact, Buddha was the first man on earth ever to have gained such status; and ironically, the Hindus themselves have treated him as Supreme God, the 10th avatar of Vishnu, which evidently proves the tremendous influence he commanded on the philosophical thinking of his time, long after that; and so he does that, even today.

It must be cearly born in mind that Buddha sermonised in Pali.

Since its establishment as the prime religion of India, Buddhism remained the prime source of all knowledge for intellectuals and common masses of India and also for the foreign students from abroad like Burma, Tibet, China, Japan and other eastern countries for over two millennia and half; and that way, Buddhism has also greatly influenced Taoism, Confucianism and other eastern philosophies; and it continues to do so.

After the great emperor Ashok adopted Buddhism, he spread Buddhism far beyond the boundaries of his huge empire. It were the Buddhists who founded the first two great universities of the world, namely Nalanda and Taxila Vishwa Vidyalayas, where studies in all branches of knowledge and intellectual inquiries were conducted and taught.

History clearly tells us that Buddhism along with the wealth of knowledge acuired during Buddhist period was either severly distorted or heedlessly destroyed from the soil of India.

Nonetheless, Buddhism is a major religious and ethical force in the world today, and it is the fastest-growing religion in Europe, North America; and even in India, it is coming back as a major force among the intellectual circles.

Unlike those fallacious claims, simply based on wishful thinking, these are the real and authentic facts about Buddha and Buddhism, accompanied by the references and clear evidences to support them; and ironically, they are very well verified by the very people who were/are intolerant and antagonistic towards Buddha and his teachings.

Therefore, there is no room for any dissent, unless one is severely degenerated cognitively and holds envious grudges towards the authenticity and great successes of the Buddhist doctrines, which opponents were more than happy to copy with their egocentric distortions but didn't want to accept them as they really were/are.

Isn't that disgraceful? I think, it really is.

:D :) :thumbsup:

[Rohit]

Where do you presume Buddha gained his knowledge from?
Exactly like Einstein did.

By adopting a completely new, radical and broader world-view, more reflective of, and corresponding to, the facts, truths and reality coded in nature, Buddha completely overturned the existing fallacious beliefs that were based on completely narrow and/or false world-views; and developed an entirely new and self-reliant system of human inquiry that was/is consummately compatible with scientific inquiry.

Please, refer to my preceding post for more condensed details. :) :thumbsup:

The very fact is clearly expressed in the following famous quote of Einstein:


The religion of the future will be a cosmic religion. The religion which is based on experience, which refuses dogmatic. If there's any religion that would cope the scientific needs it will be Buddhism.

Albert Einstein

:D :) :thumbsup:

[thamiz]

SRS wrote:


Very good backwards reasoning on your part.

What is the meaning of "backwards" here?

Is that an "adjective" ?

Any moderator who edited SRS's POST can enlighten this to "clown"thamiz" here too!.

After all I am here to learn! I am waiting for an answer here! 8-)

[Rohit]

Dear Thamiz you are absolutely right, this belated member of the flock such as SRS knows zilch about civilised manners and behaviours, forget altogether he ever knowing anything scientific. The reason is very simple, such belated individulas have been specifically inculcated and habituated to just feed on fallacies; there is nothing whatsoever more to it than that. :) :thumbsup:

[SRS]

Who is the real imbecile here? Whoever is claiming that a 5000 year old civilization has no scientific legacy should know the answer.

And now I have posed the ultimate challenge to them: Where did Buddha gain his knowledge from?

Look at the desperate response:


By adopting a completely new, radical and broader world-view, more reflective of, and corresponding to, the facts, truths and reality coded in nature, Buddha completely overturned the existing fallacious beliefs that were based on completely narrow and/or false world-views; and developed an entirely new and self-reliant system of human inquiry that was/is consummately compatible with scientific inquiry.


Examining the fallacies in the above:

1. Buddha had no contact with the West

2. Buddha was born as a Hindu prince

3. One does not gain scientific knowledge through osmosis

4. Any education Buddha had was via classical Vedantic and or other Hindu teachings

Therefore, one is forced to conclude that scientific knowledge in India was alive and well before the time of Buddha as no human being can invent such a vast, diverse body of knowledge in one lifetime, regardless of any world-view or other such rubbish the atheist crowd may desperately try to posit.

Thus, totally shattering to pieces yet again the desperate arguments of the atheists.

:lol:

[thamiz]

Rohit: I am trying not attacking "personally"! So I am careful not doing the same.

However I really like to know few things clear.

I am asking as politely as I can, where I had been often advised by them NOT TO GET PERSONAL in a public warning by Mr. Badri in the same forum!

I wonder why SRS is not getting such public warning for attacking me unnecessarily in hte middle of nowhere!

I stongly believe the moderators here are human beings and not Gods. They are civilized and educated and not partial and beleiving in democracy and braod-minded

And they are kind enough to educate "clown thamz" (I have been honerd by SRS for trying to understand some facts)!

* Why this guy is using the term "backward" here?

* Why it is allowed to use on me?

* After all being IGNORANT like me is not a CRIME, right?

MODERATOR must answer this question. Dont ban me for asking some questions!

[Rohit]

Thus spoke the shattered.

Just go and revisit all the threads of your humiliating defeats.

Maybe some loud chanting of mantras may help remember that.

Just try, it might help.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :D :) :thumbsup:

[SRS]

Therefore, one is forced to conclude that scientific knowledge in India was alive and well before the time of Buddha as no human being can invent such a vast, diverse body of knowledge in one lifetime, regardless of any world-view or other such rubbish the atheist crowd may desperately try to posit.

Thus, totally shattering to pieces yet again the desperate arguments of the atheists.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

[Rohit]

Where do you presume Buddha gained his knowledge from?
Just try this again:

Exactly like Einstein did.

By adopting a completely new, radical and broader world-view, more reflective of, and corresponding to, the facts, truths and reality coded in nature, Buddha completely overturned the existing fallacious beliefs that were based on completely narrow and/or false world-views; and developed an entirely new and self-reliant system of human inquiry that was/is consummately compatible with scientific inquiry.

Please, refer to my preceding post for more condensed details. :) :thumbsup:

The very fact is clearly expressed in the following famous quote of Einstein:


The religion of the future will be a cosmic religion. The religion which is based on experience, which refuses dogmatic. If there's any religion that would cope the scientific needs it will be Buddhism.

Albert Einstein

:D :) :thumbsup:

[SRS]

[tscii:9bc8b35cca]Fortunately, Einstein could apply directly to the Eidgenössische Polytechnische Schule (“Swiss Federal Polytechnic School”; in 1911, following expansion in 1909 to full university status, it was renamed the Eidgenössische Technische Hochschule, or “Swiss Federal Institute of Technology”) in Zürich without the equivalent of a high school diploma if he passed its stiff entrance examinations. His marks showed that he excelled in mathematics and physics, but he failed at French, chemistry, and biology. Because of his exceptional math scores, he was allowed into the polytechnic on the condition that he first finish his formal schooling. He went to a special high school run by Jost Winteler in Aarau, Switz., and graduated in 1896.


Therefore, it is clear that the formal education of Einstein consisted of attending a school to obtain pre-existing information.

The keyword here is pre-existing :lol:

Similarly, any pre-existing knowledge Buddha gained was via Hindu sources.

However, the point of the matter is, one can form very little in the way of new conclusions without a firm grasp of basic foundational knowledge.Therefore, one is forced to conclude that any scientific knowledge the Buddha may have possessed had as its base pre-existing Hindu scientific knowledge.



[/b][/tscii:9bc8b35cca]

[Rohit]

First of all, no one can be held responsible for such sheer lack of grasp of real facts, except one's own cognitively degenerated, egocentric as well as geocentric biases.

Let me show and prove how and why.

Based on the chronological development of philosophical doctrines in India, the developments and evolution of religions in India, clearly and evidently show that the current form of Hinduism based on VedaAnta (literally means "The End of the Vedas") - i.e. Advaita, VishithaAdvaita, Dvaita, Bhagavad-Gita etc.-all came long after Buddha, except the four Vedas and a few minor Upanishads, the status and contents of which Buddha had categorically rejected long before gaining his world-famous enlightenment. In fact, Buddha was the first man on earth ever to have gained such status; and ironically, the Hindus themselves have treated him as Supreme God, the 10th avatar of Vishnu, which evidently proves the tremendous influence he commanded on the philosophical thinking of his time, long after that; and so he does that, even today.

It must be cearly born in mind that Buddha sermonised in Pali.

Since its establishment as the prime religion of India, Buddhism remained the prime source of all knowledge for intellectuals and common masses of India and also for the foreign students from abroad like Burma, Tibet, China, Japan and other eastern countries for over two millennia and half; and that way, Buddhism has also greatly influenced Taoism, Confucianism and other eastern philosophies; and it continues to do so.

After the great emperor Ashok adopted Buddhism, he spread Buddhism far beyond the boundaries of his huge empire. It were the Buddhists who founded the first two great universities of the world, namely Nalanda and Taxila Vishwa Vidyalayas, where studies in all branches of knowledge and intellectual inquiries were conducted and taught.

History clearly tells us that Buddhism along with the wealth of knowledge acuired during Buddhist period was either severly distorted or heedlessly destroyed from the soil of India.

Nonetheless, Buddhism is a major religious and ethical force in the world today, and it is the fastest-growing religion in Europe, North America; and even in India, it is coming back as a major force among the intellectual circles.

Unlike those fallacious claims, simply based on wishful thinking, these are the real and authentic facts about Buddha and Buddhism, accompanied by the references and clear evidences to support them; and ironically, they are very well verified by the very people who were/are intolerant and antagonistic towards Buddha and his teachings.

Therefore, there is no room for any dissent, unless one is severely degenerated cognitively and holds envious grudges towards the authenticity and great successes of the Buddhist doctrines, which opponents were more than happy to copy with their egocentric distortions but didn't want to accept them as they really were/are.

Isn't that disgraceful? I think, it really is.

:D :) :thumbsup:

[Rohit]

Where do you presume Buddha gained his knowledge from?
And then, try this yet one more time:

Exactly like Einstein did.

By adopting a completely new, radical and broader world-view, more reflective of, and corresponding to, the facts, truths and reality coded in nature, Buddha completely overturned the existing fallacious beliefs that were based on completely narrow and/or false world-views; and developed an entirely new and self-reliant system of human inquiry that was/is consummately compatible with scientific inquiry.

Please, refer to my preceding post for more condensed details. :) :thumbsup:

The very fact is clearly expressed in the following famous quote of Einstein:


The religion of the future will be a cosmic religion. The religion which is based on experience, which refuses dogmatic. If there's any religion that would cope the scientific needs it will be Buddhism.

Albert Einstein

:D :) :thumbsup:

[Rohit]

Where do you presume Buddha gained his knowledge from?
Try this yet one more time:

Exactly like Einstein did.

By adopting a completely new, radical and broader world-view, more reflective of, and corresponding to, the facts, truths and reality coded in nature, Buddha completely overturned the existing fallacious beliefs that were based on completely narrow and/or false world-views; and developed an entirely new and self-reliant system of human inquiry that was/is consummately compatible with scientific inquiry.

Please, refer to my preceding post for more condensed details. :) :thumbsup:

The very fact is clearly expressed in the following famous quote of Einstein:


The religion of the future will be a cosmic religion. The religion which is based on experience, which refuses dogmatic. If there's any religion that would cope the scientific needs it will be Buddhism.

Albert Einstein

:D :) :thumbsup:

[SRS]

Regardless of any world-view one adopts, one cannot grasp advanced knowledge of such concepts as evolution of the universe, relativity, atomic structure of matter, etc. without some pre-existing knowledge gained from secondary sources.

Therefore, if one presumes Buddha possessed such advanced knowledge, one is left to question where he gained the pre-existing knowledge from .

The only answers the atheists can come up with are:

1. Forming a worldview (which I have shattered)

2. Existence of Buddhist universities (except that all such universities were founded after the death of the Buddha)

Enjoy the unceasing denial and gooble-gok of desperate arguments to come!

:lol: :lol: :lol:

[Rohit]

Normally; most people with average mental capacity hold language as nothing more than just a medium communication, which is true, only when it comes to the use of a language. But such perception is absolutely false when it comes to grasp the exact developmental and evolutionary course of the language. The notion, that language is nothing more than just a medium of communication, completely falls over when one closely examines the whole evolutionary process involved in the development of a language.

The level of evolution of a language directly reflects the level of cognitive development of the people who developed that particular language.

Here is some more light on the state of affairs between the cognitive endowments of the societies and the development of their languages:

Society, Culture, Nation and such other words, encapsulate the concept of Civilisation, which consequently entails people or public as a whole.

Public broadly divides into two groups: - Intellectuals and General Public or masses

The Intellectual Group further divides into two governing categories: - Honest and Corrupt

Similarly, the General Public also divides into two predominant categories: - Aware and Impetuous

Though, it is normal to expect Intellectuals and General Public somewhere in the middle of the pertinent categories, the following analytical discussion is based on the undiluted, predominant categories listed above.

For a civilisation to come into being and develop, interaction between the intellectuals and general public, no matter how significant or insignificant it may be, is inevitable and this is a fundamental ground upon which the formation of any society can be based. Based on the above four categories of human conducts, the following four sets of social interaction process that can take place among the people can be identified.

Intellectuals -- General Public
1) Honest -- Aware
2) Honest -- Impetuous
3) Corrupt -- Aware
4) Corrupt -- Impetuous

The quality of such interaction may change over time. Nonetheless, it is essentially a very slow process and it takes several generations for a society to identify requisite changes for improvements and advancement in the state of affairs of language development, which is essentially achieved by the quality of the operative feedback loops.

The process begins with some sort of communication between the people. In order to establish any communication, the invention and use of languages was only natural and logical course. For a language to be comprehensible and intelligible to all people involved, the development and grasp of various concepts that could provide means for common mental representations of people, places, objects, events, situations, activities; and other concrete and abstracts terms are absolutely essential. Thus, concepts form the basic building blocks of human thoughts and then become the foundation of mental categories, which people use for classification, in evaluating information, in making decisions and then act accordingly. This way, concepts get firmly planted in language and in turn the entire process forms a strong psychological bond between concept formation and evolution of the language.

Thus:

- The power of language reflects people’s ability to form clear and strong concepts, which in turn depends on the quality of interaction process that is operative among the group of people at a given period of time-frame.

- The level of evolution of language directly reflects the quality of cognitive endowments of the society that speaks that language.

- Language forms the fundamental base of human cognitive process, which develops and evolves over generations and centuries depending on the existing communicable thoughts and knowledge.

- The level of evolution of language directly reflects the level of progress and advancement of the society.

- The level of evolution of language directly reflects the quality of interaction among the various members of the society in question.

The following are the representative examples of the developmental courses of four societies based upon the evolution of their languages

1) Honest -- Aware

Concepts: - Clear
Language: - Evolved
Cognitive Process: - Actualising
Society: - Developed
Feedback: - Generative

2) Honest -- Impetuous

Concepts: - Cogent
Language: - Developed
Cognitive Process: - Effective
Society: - Latent
Feedback: - Restorative

3) Corrupt -- Aware

Concepts: - Vague
Language: - Deceptive
Cognitive Process: - Pretentious
Society: - Crippled
Feedback: - Restorative

4) Corrupt -- Impetuous

Concepts: - Weak
Language: - Slender
Cognitive Process: - Obscured
Society: - Backward
Feedback: - Degenerative

It should not put too much of a strain on the peoples' minds wanting to conclude where both of these languages; in fact, any of the 26 or so Indian languages stand, not in terms of the number of their speakers, but in terms of their abilities to serve the demands and sophistication required in the communication needs of today and future.

In nutshell, the information and knowledge generated by the distant past generations, when utilised, enhanced, refined and added to by the cerebral endowments of the past generations, generating information and knowledge that essentially reflected the cognitive endowments of the past generations, which became the foundation of cognitive development for present generations.

Similarly, the information and knowledge generated by present generations, when utilised, enhanced, refined and added to by the cerebral endowments of future generations, generating information and knowledge that would essentially reflect the cognitive endowments of future generations, which would become the foundation of cognitive development for the generations of remote future.

The mechanism by which such transfers of refined, new and advanced cognition can take place is through a language that evolves with time and keeps pace with the changing communication demands and/or needs of the time.

An utter absence of such a language reflects the prevalent lack and/or heedless suppression of cognitive and cerebral endowments of society.

:D :) :thumbsup:

[kannannn]

Thamiz, porumai!! I too didn't expect the silent erasure of the offending parts. Let's see what they have to say.

SRS, please answer this question: why did no one before Gautama become a Buddha if the knowledge was there for all to grasp?

[SRS]

SRS, please answer this question: why did no one before Gautama become a Buddha if the knowledge was there for all to grasp?

Just like in Hinduism, there are many paths one take to achieve "liberation." Buddha never claimed his path was the only correct one. If his was the only correct one, he would not have mentioned for others to reject any of his doctrines that they did not feel themselves to be in agreement with.

More likely, his was the simplest one; do not forget that the first paths he tried were extreme ascetic practices. However, the point to be noted is, one does not become a "Buddha" merely through knowledge. It is more of an introspective process. Correspondingly, introsprection does not imply the immediate nor long-term gain of any knowledge.

The entire base of Buddhism rests on non-attachment. Even knowledge can lead to attachment; interestingly, the Buddha also says not to become too attached to his doctrines!

Of course, the interesting point of all this is that the Buddha tried to explain non-attachment through scientific terms. Example being, the world as we know it is not real in the normal sense; it is more like a wave pulse, or a vibration in time, similar to what string theory postulates. And then of course, the famous aggregrate theorem; that, in fact, all organic matter is composed of lifeless particles, what we call atoms/molecules, and that rebirth can be explained via new aggregates of these atoms.

There is also an origin of the universe theory he gives, very similar (if one interprets in a certain way) to the modern theory of the Big Bang. There is also a famous sutra in which a Brahmin asks him ten questions, such as, as is the Universe infinite in extent, for which the Buddha refuses to give an answer, saying instead it is better to consider what is within the realm of present experience. However, the presumption is that the Buddha does indeed know the answers to all ten questions.

So from all this, one can see the scientific nature of Buddhism. However, one must also question any outside influences/sources the Buddha may have come into contact with, that influenced his knowledge base. Very, very few ideas one comes up with are entirely original. Usually, it is the case that one hears a series of ideas, rejects certain ones, and revises one or two he may take a liking to. So, what I am saying is, if most of the Buddha's ideas cannot be considered 100% original, then what are the influences/sources of those ideas? The similarities between Buddhism and Hinduism provide the obvious answer.

[thamiz]

kannan: I will wait :)

[Rohit]

why did no one before Gautama become a Buddha if the knowledge was there for all to grasp?
There is only one verifiably true answer to the above question; and that undeniably is:

Exactly like Einstein did.

By adopting a completely new, radical and broader world-view, more reflective of, and corresponding to, the facts, truths and reality coded in nature, Buddha completely overturned the existing fallacious beliefs that were based on completely narrow and/or false world-views; and developed an entirely new and self-reliant system of human inquiry that was/is consummately compatible with scientific inquiry.

Please, refer to my preceding post for more condensed details. :) :thumbsup:

The very fact is clearly expressed in the following famous quote of Einstein:


The religion of the future will be a cosmic religion. The religion which is based on experience, which refuses dogmatic. If there's any religion that would cope the scientific needs it will be Buddhism.

Albert Einstein

:D :) :thumbsup:

[SRS]

[tscii:33badc1477]Did Bhaskar II discover calculus?
[/tscii:33badc1477]
I seem to have missed this. Didn't Archimedes deal with integration much earlier in the 3rd century BC?

Archimedes used a purely geometric approximation method. The Greeks did not know of algebra!

[kannannn]

Rohit, that is exactly my point too. How radical is a different question though.
SRS, 'The debate of King Milinda' too has some interesting points about Buddhism's influences. I don't deny that there may have been influences. You are right that he rejected some ideas and retained some. But that doesn't prove if the language of the day was scientific enough to accelerate knowledge development (that I don't buy the theory of scientific language is a different story). Why did he then choose to teach in Pali? Why not Sanskrit?

[Rohit]

Rohit, that is exactly my point too. How radical is a different question though.
The extent of radicalism solely lies in the world-view one conceives; and there are only four possible base world-views. Will talk about that later, if the situation improves and permits us to do so. :)

[kannannn]

I think I understand what you mean. But only four base world-views? You must explain it sometime :).

[Rohit]

I think I understand what you mean.
That really is encouraging and promising. :)


But only four base world-views?
Yes, there are only four possible base world-views, the rest are just derivatives; and there are countless of them. :)

And that is why language mirrors the world-view or world perception of people or the "Weltanschauung" as they call it in German.


You must explain it sometime :).
Sure, I shall attempt to do that, providing current condition and situation improves and becomes conducive enough to reflect on that fundamental aspect of the whole conundrum in a cordial manner. :)

:D :) :thumbsup:

[thamiz]

There is no other way but through communication of some sort, and language is the most powerful means of expressing those thoughts. If this is clear enough then the rest is not difficult to grasp.

So, you are saying, using some languages one can communicate 'scientific thoughts"better. Using some other languages we cant communicate science or scientific thoughts well enough?

OK, fine.

Now, we have the results of scientific achievements of different language speakers and we theorize from the results, right? :roll:

I am wondering, Is there a way one can demonstrate, some languages are superior to communicate some scientific thoughts?

I mean, Is it possible to go through few examples of concepts or thoughts and try communicate through different languages and demonstrate that one is superior over other ? :) Or it is too difficult to do so?

[Rohit]

There is no other way but through communication of some sort, and language is the most powerful means of expressing those thoughts. If this is clear enough then the rest is not difficult to grasp.
Thank you Thamiz for your views and also for raising some interesting questions.

For contextual integrity, the full quote should read as:


Like I have said it quite clearly and said it countless times that "Language reflects thoughts of people, and thoughts get expressed through language."

So what came first? Obviously thoughts came first.

But how can one ever know what those thoughts were and then correct or refine them if they did not reflect or correspond to truths, facts and/or reality? There is no other way but through communication of some sort, and language is the most powerful means of expressing those thoughts. If this is clear enough then the rest is not difficult to grasp.

So, you are saying, using some languages one can communicate 'scientific thoughts" better.
A language (of course having a structure) would end-up in a particular evolutionary state depending on whether the users of that particular language have grasped and formed a broad range of scientific and pertinent concrete as well as abstract concepts and terminology that are capable of use in expressing scientific thoughts and/or explanations.

Like I have stressed it in the begining that the whole process is gradual and evolutionary in nature; and it takes generations to evolve a language that is capable of achieving that scientific sophistication. And the whole process depends on the quality of operative feedback loop.


Using some other languages we cant communicate science or scientific thoughts well enough?
Any language can communicate scientific thoughts providing one has thorough conceptual grasp of scientific methodology, processes, vocabulary and sophistication to do just that.


I am wondering, Is there a way one can demonstrate, some languages are superior to communicate some scientific thoughts?
Just search it yourself and find out how many languages are there, which can thoroughly discuss scientific subject matters; and you will know that there are not many.


I mean, Is it possible to go through few examples of concepts or thoughts and try communicate through different languages and demonstrate that one is superior over other? Or it is too difficult to do so?
Like I said above, just try to search it yourself and you will know which languages are rich enough to accomplish the purpose.

I hope I have given you sufficient clues to identify the languages that meet those criteria.

:D :) :thumbsup:

[kannannn]

Just like in Hinduism, there are many paths one take to achieve "liberation." Buddha never claimed his path was the only correct one. If his was the only correct one, he would not have mentioned for others to reject any of his doctrines that they did not feel themselves to be in agreement with.
Does 'liberation' mean the liberation of soul? That would bring us to the basic difference between what the Upanishads talk about and what Buddhism talks about.


However, the point to be noted is, one does not become a "Buddha" merely through knowledge. It is more of an introspective process. Correspondingly, introsprection does not imply the immediate nor long-term gain of any knowledge.
Exactly. So, we both agree that language is not an issue here.


Now, we have the results of scientific achievements of different language speakers and we theorize from the results, right?

I am wondering, Is there a way one can demonstrate, some languages are superior to communicate some scientific thoughts?
I was coming to this. Let us take the Sumerian example. They were the most advanced race at their time scientifically. But their language saw a gradual decline until it became no more than a classical, ritual language by the time the Semetic people moved in. So, if the Sumerian language had been superior, it would have withstood the test of time and more people would have adapted it. I wonder why that didn't happen!!

[thamiz]

Well, it is hard to prove any theory. I really dont have great language skills to compare it. However I think I am understanding Rohit's point of view. A thought comes to a person. Then he/she communicates using one language. Then based on the language, the thought can become an idea and give fruitful results. That is what Rohit is saying.

I dont like big pictures. I dont want to listent to vedic science which is not competent in today's situation. If it is efficient, someone should tell me how it can help todays problems such as "HIV" or "CANCER" by using that vedic science. SO I dont want to hear to some NONSENSE from some "layman" who does not know the valency of C and posting nonsense after nonsense from cutting and pasting some web crap from some idiotic sites! That gets us nowhere! It is not worth spending your time with some well-known lunatics after all.

Let us look at the scenario today! Let us look at people's attitude when they are doing science using one and only language e.g. English! Now most of the publications and communications are through English. Lots of french and german journals are switched to English. Still, there is a quality difference in way one does science or pursue a scientific thaought to the next level.

Let us look at people's attitude when they get a scientific thought and how they proceed futher with that! I will get back later.

[Rohit]

Dear Thamiz,

Yes, you have drawn a fairly balanced conclusion.

Just an observation; I sense you feel somewhat reserved in expressing yourself, which is natural though, but try to overcome that and assert yourself firmly. You have bright potentials. :)

Good luck :) :thumbsup:

[SRS]

Does 'liberation' mean the liberation of soul? That would bring us to the basic difference between what the Upanishads talk about and what Buddhism talks about.

To answer this question, you have to also answer the question of the origin of the universe. Unless the Universe has a beginning, then you yourself cannot have a beginning. Science does not fully answer this question. It tells us there was a singular energy... but where did the singular energy itself arise from? Of course, the full answer is given to us in the Vishnu Purana. There is no equivalent of "Vishnu Purana" in Buddhism. There is, as I have mentioned earlier, the rather vague description given by the Buddha, which roughly resembles the Big Bang theory. So, the "annata" doctrine is missing a crucial piece - it will tell us the end of the "self" - even this in a limited sense - but it does not provide any justification as to how that self came into being in the first place.


Exactly. So, we both agree that language is not an issue here.

When you see this, 1 + 1 = 2, do you see it as, "one plus one equals two?" I could go further, do you see "e^0 = 1" as "the euler constant to the exponential power of 0 is equivalent to 1?" You concieved of the problem and the answer entirely in symbolic form. That is the whole beauty of mathematics; it defies any single language. That is also the reason why so many different cultures have contributed to mathematical development (also note the overlap in these developments). Because (as I have said earlier) it is really a collection of patterns. The pattern is there (in nature). One does not need a language to conceive of it. What professional mathematicians do is simply provide structure to the patterns, using an axiomatic scheme.

[

[SRS]

I dont like big pictures. I dont want to listent to vedic science which is not competent in today's situation. If it is efficient, someone should tell me how it can help todays problems such as "HIV" or "CANCER" by using that vedic science. SO I dont want to hear to some NONSENSE from some "layman" who does not know the valency of C and posting nonsense after nonsense from cutting and pasting some web crap from some idiotic sites! That gets us nowhere! It is not worth spending your time with some well-known lunatics after all.

Well well, UKW. The fact that you need to come back with a new user name after disappearing for several months, after getting a severe beating each time, establishes your "credentials" very well indeed. :lol:

[thamiz]

I dont like big pictures. I dont want to listent to vedic science which is not competent in today's situation. If it is efficient, someone should tell me how it can help todays problems such as "HIV" or "CANCER" by using that vedic science. SO I dont want to hear to some NONSENSE from some "layman" who does not know the valency of C and posting nonsense after nonsense from cutting and pasting some web crap from some idiotic sites! That gets us nowhere! It is not worth spending your time with some well-known lunatics after all.

Well well, UKW. The fact that you need to come back with a new user name after disappearing for several months, after getting a severe beating each time, establishes your "credentials" very well indeed.

:roll:

[SRS]

Your nonsense is the same each time, man. Did you think you could hide?

[Rohit]

Poor "Terribly Confused Buddhists =TCB" goes :x here too. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Let me provide some further help, your CD count goes up by one, from CD = 579 to CD =580

Despite so many hopeless attempts, nothing whatsoever works for "The Terribly Confused Buddhists = The TCBs"

So, just remember the count of your Cognitive Degeneration (CD). Currently it is CD = N = 580.

Now Go to START form the link peovided below and try there one more time.

http://forumhub.mayyam.com/hub/viewtopic.php?t=6821&start=360

[thamiz]

Your nonsense is the same each time, man. Did you think you could hide?

:roll:

[goodsense]

SRS wrote:


Well well, UKW. The fact that you need to come back with a new user name after disappearing for several months, after getting a severe beating each time, establishes your "credentials" very well indeed.

Your nonsense is the same each time, man. Did you think you could hide

My, My. My Gaad. I think we caught the fever about the same time, give and take a day or two. Talk about masquerading on forum. Now I know what was that response in one of my recent threads.

[thamiz]

SRS wrote:


Well well, UKW. The fact that you need to come back with a new user name after disappearing for several months, after getting a severe beating each time, establishes your "credentials" very well indeed.

Your nonsense is the same each time, man. Did you think you could hide

My, My. My Gaad. I think we caught the fever about the same time, give and take a day or two. Talk about masquerading on forum. Now I know what was that response in one of my recent threads.

Is this urdu or hindi or both! :roll:

Disuss something relevant to the topic, please! Thank you! 8-)

[thamiz]

Dear Thamiz,

Yes, you have drawn a fairly balanced conclusion.

Just an observation; I sense you feel somewhat reserved in expressing yourself, which is natural though, but try to overcome that and assert yourself firmly. You have bright potentials. :)

Good luck :) :thumbsup:

Rohit: I certainly accept the lack of flexibility of some languages for expressing scientific thoughts might be some reason for lack of develpoments in science.

However, I think that can not be the only reason, right?

If India were located somewhere in the middle of Europe, we would have dome much better than what we have achieved so far. I mean development of science is "sort of contagious" too. When we keep ourselves awasy from the rest of the world, we did not get an opportunity to learn or compete with others. Does this make any sense at all? :roll:

[SRS]

SRS wrote:


Well well, UKW. The fact that you need to come back with a new user name after disappearing for several months, after getting a severe beating each time, establishes your "credentials" very well indeed.

Your nonsense is the same each time, man. Did you think you could hide

My, My. My Gaad. I think we caught the fever about the same time, give and take a day or two. Talk about masquerading on forum. Now I know what was that response in one of my recent threads.

Only one person on this forum is obsessed with the valency of carbon. Want to take a guess? 8-)

[thamiz]

SRS wrote:


Well well, UKW. The fact that you need to come back with a new user name after disappearing for several months, after getting a severe beating each time, establishes your "credentials" very well indeed.

Your nonsense is the same each time, man. Did you think you could hide

My, My. My Gaad. I think we caught the fever about the same time, give and take a day or two. Talk about masquerading on forum. Now I know what was that response in one of my recent threads.

Only one person on this forum is obsessed with the valency of carbon. Want to take a guess? 8-)

:roll:

[SRS]

[tscii:f8e53b90fe]UNICEF: U.S., British children worst off By DAVID McHUGH, Associated Press Writer
2 minutes ago



BERLIN - The United States and Britain ranked at the bottom of a U.N. survey of child welfare in 21 wealthy countries that assessed everything from infant mortality to whether children ate dinner with their parents or were bullied at school.

ADVERTISEMENT

The Netherlands, followed by Sweden, Denmark and Finland, finished at the top of the rankings, while the U.S. was 20th and Britain 21st, according to the report released Wednesday by UNICEF in Germany.

One of the study's researchers, Jonathan Bradshaw, said children fared worse in the U.S. and Britain — despite high overall levels of national wealth — because of greater economic inequality and poor levels of public support for families.

"What they have in common are very high levels of inequality, very high levels of child poverty, which is also associated with inequality, and in rather different ways poorly developed services to families with children," said Bradshaw, a professor of social policy at the University of York in Britain.

"They don't invest as much in children as continental European countries do," he said, citing the lack of day care services in both countries and poorer health coverage and preventative care for children in the U.S.

The study also gave the U.S. and Britain low marks for their higher incidences of single-parent families and risky behaviors among children, such as drinking alcohol and sexual activity.

Britain was last and the U.S. second from the bottom in the category focusing on relationships, based on the percentage of children who lived in single-parent homes or with stepparents, as well as the percentage that ate the main meal of the day with their families several times per week. That category also counted the proportion of children who said they had "kind" or "helpful" relationships with other children.

The report's authors cautioned that the focus on single-parent families "may seem unfair and insensitive" and noted that many children do well with one parent.

"But at the statistical level there is evidence to associate growing up in single-parent families with greater risk to well-being — including a greater risk of dropping out of school, of leaving home early, poorer health, low skills and of low pay," the report said.

On average, 80 percent of the children in the countries surveyed live with both parents. There were wide variations, however, from more than 90 percent in Greece and Italy to less than 70 percent in Britain and 60 percent in the U.S., where 16 percent of adolescents lived with stepfamilies.

Bob Reitemeier, chief executive of The Children's Fund charity in Britain, said the UNICEF report also showed that less than half of British children reported good relations with their peers.

"That really jumped off the page," he said, citing concerns about the competitive, ratings-based school environment in Britain and higher reported incidences of bullying and fighting. "The environment for these young people is quite negative."

The study ranked the countries in six categories, based on national statistics: material well-being, health and safety, education, peer and family relationships, behaviors and risks, and young people's own subjective sense of well-being. Both the U.S. and Britain were in the bottom two-thirds of five of the six categories.

The U.S. finished last in the health and safety category, based on infant mortality, vaccinations for childhood diseases, deaths from injuries and accidents before age 19, and whether children reported fighting in the past year or being bullied in the previous two months.

Britain finished at the bottom in behaviors and risks, which considered factors such as the percentage of children who had breakfast, ate fruit regularly, exercised, were overweight, used drugs or alcohol, were sexually active or became pregnant.

The British government criticized the report, saying it did not take account of recent improvements to education, health and general living standards in the country. Some of the statistics also went back as far as 2001, it said.

"In many cases the data used is several years old and does not reflect more recent improvements such as the continuing fall in the teenage pregnancy rate or in the proportion of children living in workless households," said a spokeswoman for the British Department for Education and Skills on customary condition of anonymity.

Opposition lawmaker Annette Brooke said the report reflected a "shameful level of child poverty" in Britain. "It is shocking that we are doing so badly at bringing up our children," she said. "Every child should be entitled to live in a stable, loving family environment."

Officials at the U.S. State Department and Department of Health and Human Services were not immediately available for comment on the report.

In general, northern European countries with strong social welfare systems dominated the upper half of the rankings. Southern European countries, such as Spain, Italy and Portugal, ranked higher in terms of family support and levels of trust with friends and peers.

___

On the Net:

[/tscii:f8e53b90fe]

[SRS]

As I have said many items, just looking at economic indicators will give one only a superficial indicator of so-called prosperity.

[Rohit]

I mean development of science is "sort of contagious" too. When we keep ourselves away from the rest of the world, we did not get an opportunity to learn or compete with others. Does this make any sense at all?
If I were you, I would not choose to use the word 'contagious', simply because there are much better words that describe such phenomenon.

For example, the words communicable, transmissible, interactive etc., the words, terms or concepts I have used earlier better express such 'spread' of scientific thoughts.

The biggest question is why there was no such 'spread' of "scientific way of thinking" and "scientific way of doing things" in India even when Indian population was far larger than that of Europe?

Europe as 'sort of contagious' place for such activity is rather an 'ad hoc' or a 'post hoc' argument and does not help explain the big and deep hole in the "Indian way of thinking", I am afraid.

:D :) :thumbsup:

[thamiz]

The biggest question is why there was no such 'spread' of "scientific way of thinking" and "scientific way of doing things" in India even when Indian population was far larger than that of Europe?

I think it is because of conservative nature of people.

* Even today, people are afraid of saying " I dont know"

* They dont encourage younger ones to take over. They rather find some "yes man" so that there wont be much competition for them.

* When you dont let the younger people to "make mistakes" "come up with wild ideas" and alsways expect them to follow what the older ones believe, there is no way science can evolve.

If your boss get offended when you contradict him and prove him wrong, he makessure you get no where- even when you disagree with him that world is not flat- how can science evolve no matter what language you speak? :roll:

[Rohit]

Even today, people are afraid of saying "I dont know"
For one to say "I don't know", one must know much more than one already knows and one must possess very high capacity to realise that there is lot more out there to learn and know. But the situations in India were quite the opposite. The ancient Indians, with their egocentric mindset, strongly believed that they knew everything, when they knew little. With such egocentric, narrow mindset, the ancient Indians strongly held the fallacy that spending time after scientific inquiry was nothing more than an act of ignorance.

Therefore, the situation has no chance of changing unless people liberate themselves form the shackles of such age-old, cognitively degenerating, narrow mindset and realise the utter fallacy in the narrow world-views that have been heedlessly flushed/inculcated into their insensate heads for centuries.


....alsways expect them to follow what the older ones believe, there is no way science can evolve.
And exactly for these reasons no Indian language evolved sufficiently to deal with the subject matters of science and similar intellectually demanding fields. That is why I said, "language reflects thoughts of people and thoughts get expressed through language". When there is utter lack of scientific thoughts, the language or languages used cannot evolve for expressing scientific thoughts. Like I said earlier, the spread of "Scientific way of thinking" and "Scientific way of doing things" is an 'interactive' cognitive process; and language plays very important role in that 'interactive' process.

:D :) :thumbsup:

[SRS]

[quote] The biggest question is why there was no such 'spread' of "scientific way of thinking" and "scientific way of doing things" in India even when Indian population was far larger than that of Europe?

So you are admitting "Thirukkural" has absolutely no scientific value???

[thamiz]

The biggest question is why there was no such 'spread' of "scientific way of thinking" and "scientific way of doing things" in India even when Indian population was far larger than that of Europe?

So you are admitting "Thirukkural" has absolutely no scientific value???

srs: :roll:

Mr. ROhit is not a thamil- he does not know read or write thamizh either, and he might not know much about thirukuraL as thamizh is not his mother tongue.

In any case, cornering him using this statment is SENSELESS. 8-)

Because Rohit does not give a damn what thirukkuRaL has! :notworthy:




The biggest question is why there was no such 'spread' of "scientific way of thinking" and "scientific way of doing things" in India even when Indian population was far larger than that of Europe?

Europe as 'sort of contagious' place for such activity is rather an 'ad hoc' or a 'post hoc' argument and does not help explain the big and deep hole in the "Indian way of thinking", I am afraid.

:D :) :thumbsup:

[SRS]

Because Rohit does not give a damn what thirukkuRaL has! :notworthy:

Therefore, we are in agreement that Rohit is aware of only "half the picture." Therefore, any assertion made by Rohit must be considered within the same context.

Now of course, the challenge is left to Rohit to dismiss "Thirukkural", as he has done "Vedas", or else admit his ignorance. :wink:

[Rohit]

Dear Thamiz, you seem to have understood my arguments in the right context.

Keeping in mind the various detrimental factors that were at work, the requoted question by you has been clearly raised against "The Indian way of thinking" and "The Indian way of doing things" in general, which evidently validates itself; and does not require any further analysis at regional level, as you have correctly implied.

:D :) :thumbsup:

[SRS]

...and does not require any further analysis at regional level, as you have correctly implied.

A sweeping admission of defeat. For the South Indian readers who may be viewing this thread, draw your own conclusions. Especially the most obvious one!

[Rohit]

Heavy reliance on dissonance-ridden fallacies cannot and will not help alter the drawn conclusion that is based on hard facts and factual reality, I am afraid.

:D :) :thumbsup:

[SRS]

Either comment on the achievements/non-achievements of South Indian science, or accept defeat. Good luck!

[Rohit]

Try reading and grasping this again.

Heavy reliance on dissonance-ridden fallacies cannot and will not help alter the drawn conclusion that is based on hard facts and factual reality, I am afraid.

:D :) :thumbsup:

[thamiz]

Because Rohit does not give a damn what thirukkuRaL has! :notworthy:

Therefore, we are in agreement that Rohit is aware of only "half the picture." Therefore, any assertion made by Rohit must be considered within the same context.

Now of course, the challenge is left to Rohit to dismiss "Thirukkural", as he has done "Vedas", or else admit his ignorance. :wink:

Nope, you dont know the difference!

You made a mistake of cornering Rohit with thirukuRaL.

And even if Rohit says that "thirukkuRaL" does not have any scientific values or whatsoever, I would not hesitate to agree with that, either!

Either way, you are going to LOSE here unfortunately! :D

[SRS]

Nope, you dont know the difference!

You made a mistake of cornering Rohit with thirukuRaL.

And even if Rohit says that "thirukkuRaL" does not have any scientific values or whatsoever, I would not hesitate to agree with that, either!

Economics is considered a science. The formation of a highly structured government is also considered a science; one can do a degree course called "political science." No doubt you are aware of kural commentaries on such matters. If not, I am happy to refresh your memory.


Either way, you are going to LOSE here unfortunately! :D

The discussion was never limited to Vedic Science, but all Indian science in general. So why are you & Rohit suddenly backing out now? Why not complete your argument? It is a simple matter of stating that South India had/did not have science. There is no need for hysteresis! :wink:

[Rohit]

Either way, you are going to LOSE here unfortunately! :D
Ouch!

Of course, this is a detrimental blow for poor SRS.

Anyway, despite of losing every time in every thread, poor SRS miserably fails to realise that due to prevailing inactivity in his upper lobe, unless someone explicitly tells him of the factual situation he invariably gets himself into.

:D :) :thumbsup:

[podalangai]

O saheb, ayya, doddavare, janab-e-ali, what does this discussion have to do with the history of Hindi and Urdu? Please move it to a separate thread about "Scientific thought and the limitations of Indian languages!"

[SRS]

Just like in all the "existence of God" discussions, Rohit has resorted to denials and nonsensical repetitions when faced with the undeniable facts.

[thamiz]

O saheb, ayya, doddavare, janab-e-ali, what does this discussion have to do with the history of Hindi and Urdu? Please move it to a separate thread about "Scientific thought and the limitations of Indian languages!"

Seems like we have got a NEW MODERATOR here!!!

Why dont you clean up some PERSONAL ATTACKS and completely irrelavant crap!!!

At least Rohit's digresssion is taking it to a healthier direction![

This is for podalangaaay the new " ACTING " moderator to clean up !!!


Your nonsense is the same each time, man. Did you think you could hide?


SRS wrote:


Well well, UKW. The fact that you need to come back with a new user name after disappearing for several months, after getting a severe beating each time, establishes your "credentials" very well indeed.

Your nonsense is the same each time, man. Did you think you could hide

My, My. My Gaad. I think we caught the fever about the same time, give and take a day or two. Talk about masquerading on forum. Now I know what was that response in one of my recent threads.

[Rohit]

Rohit has resorted to denials and nonsensical repetitions when faced with the undeniable facts.
Repeated washed-up defeats do have detrimental effects on poor SRS.

The only option for the loser SRS is to hopelessly rely on such dissonance-ridden fallacies, even when such desperate measures mercilessly refuse to help him alter the conclusions.

Anyway, the repetitions are only for those who miserably fail to grasp the relations and correlates of situations; otherwise they were and they are absolutely redundant, only if one can grasp what this statement itself means.

:D :) :thumbsup:

[Rohit]

"Scientific thought and the limitations of Indian languages!"
The conclusion incontrovertibly remains the same.

Hindi and Urdu just happen to be the two from the set of many.

:D :) :thumbsup:

[Rohit]

Let us get back to the main topic.

Hindi and Urdu, both were developed collectively by Hindus and Muslims. Therefore, it goes without saying that the two events happened during Mogul rule.

Both languages have the same general pronunciation, grammar, and vocabulary, but differ in their script. Hindi is written in devanagri, while Urdu is written in Perso-Arabic.

The difference between the two languages is largely due to politics and religion; therefore, Hindus favour Hindi and Muslims favour Urdu.

Other languages have extensively influenced both these languages. Hindi looks to Sanskrit for its vocabulary, while Urdu looks to Persian and Arabic. Both languages have borrowed extensively from English, turning Hindi into Hinglish.

Since both languages have inherently relied on amalgamation of religious and poetic thoughts, both have miserably failed in nurturing 'scientific way of thinking' and 'scientific way of doing things', rendering both languages hopelessly incapable of dealing with the subjects matters of science, engineering, mathematics in general and other advanced, intellectually demanding fields of anthropological importance.

So, one can clearly see how all these revolve around linguistic 'interactions' of many and resulting 'consequences'.

[SRS]

"When I read the Bhagavad-Gita and reflect about how God created this universe everything else seems so superfluous." ~

Albert Einstein

[Rohit]

Experts agree that the startling result provides the strongest support yet for the controversial hypothesis that the language available to humans defines our thoughts.

http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn6303

:D :) :thumbsup:

[pradheep]

in modern research, false findings may be the majority or even the vast majority of published research claims, and went on to try and prove that most claimed research findings are false.


http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/02/070227105745.htm

[thamiz]

in modern research, false findings may be the majority or even the vast majority of published research claims, and went on to try and prove that most claimed research findings are false.

What are you trying to say from this???

That is very normal in science and scientists never cared to admit their mistakes because of lack of knowledge in the past unlike some people here who try too hard to justify anything said in the old "literature of their ancestors' as correct , in order to defend their religion and nonsensical beliefs OR NOT?? ! :roll:

[pradheep]

Dear thamil
I am not some one who interprets "literally" the ancient writings. Then it will look non-sense. I am not justifying because of a "belief" system. I look at every thing holsitically and that is why I see the truth, instead of fragmented views. You may take time to understand what i mean by this.

Any thing that you beleive will change in time. But Truth will not change. Those who have talked truth have the vision of holism, not fragmented views. Modern science mostly looks in isolated studies and that is why there are so many changes often. Ancient wisdom was holistic and that is why ancient science has stood the test of time. Modern science is only "Re-search" science. discovering what was known already.

[thamiz]

Dear thamil
I am not some one who interprets "literally" the ancient writings. Then it will look non-sense.

Nope you are NOT DOING that.

But, what you are doing is, you are trying to make all NONSENSES as "sensible ones" by interpreting them in YOUR OWN WAY!

Leave ths science. It is funny you are trying to make sense out of all nonsenses by using and abusing science and by misinterpreting scientists' approaches. What you are doing is SIN!

[Rohit]

The fundamental definition of scientific research is based on its refutability. If the claim is not refutable; it is not science.

Every scientific finding is either true or false; if it is true, then it cannot be false; and if it is false, then it cannot be true.

Therefore; when anyone claims that most scientific findings are false; then being a member of the same set of findings, the very claim becomes paradoxical. If the finding is true, then it is false; and if it is false; well, it cannot be true.

Enjoy the paradox.


But don't expect to find clues in your horoscopes.

:D :) :thumbsup:

[Rohit]

A new study on monkeys found that while they are able to understand basic rules about word patterns, they are not able to follow more complex rules that underpin the crucial next stage of language structure. :!: :idea:

http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn4572

:D :) :thumbsup:

[pradheep]

What you are doing is SIN!
This is typical of missionaries way of threatening right thinking.

Kalla kanda naya kanom, naaya kandal kallakanom. (In a sculpture, when you see stone you dont find dog, and when you see dog you dont find stone).

when you look sense you dont find nonsense and when you look for non-sense you dont see sense in ancient knowledge. so it depends what you want to see. The world is nothing but what you want to see.

[Rohit]

Please try to read this again; and let us see what you can see.

A new study on monkeys found that while they are able to understand basic rules about word patterns, they are not able to follow more complex rules that underpin the crucial next stage of language structure. :!: :idea:

http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn4572

:D :) :thumbsup:

[SRS]

in modern research, false findings may be the majority or even the vast majority of published research claims, and went on to try and prove that most claimed research findings are false.

It is not that the research finding is necessarily 'false," or "true." The conclusion may be "true" under one set of conditions, but "false" under another. The difficulty is that one cannot test every possible condition. So unless one very clearly defines the parameters, "true" and 'false" become meaningless. But of course, there remains one ambiguity - the conditions which were not tested. It is easy from all this why science can never answer certain questions (with absolute accuracy) such as the age of the universe and the existence of God.

[SRS]

The fundamental definition of scientific research is based on its refutability. If the claim is not refutable; it is not science.

Not anymore. There is virtually no experimental evidence for string theory. However, one cannot dismiss it as "non-science" since the mathematical basis is there (in incomplete form). Without any experimental evidence, on the basis of mathematical reasoning alone, string theory has resolved many paradoxes in physics. This is more indication that theory is more powerful than experiment; also an indication that certain scientific ideas considered to be "modern", which were developed using sophisticated instrumentation, may not be so "modern" after all.

[thamiz]

What you are doing is SIN!
This is typical of missionaries way of threatening right thinking.

Is that because I used the word sin!

What a JOKE!!! :lol:


when you look sense you dont find nonsense

Yeah, I see sense in nonsense too!

But it is NONSENSE. Because nonsense is nonsense though it has 'sense' in it!

[Rohit]

Try reading this:

The fundamental definition of scientific theory is based on its refutability. If the theory is not refutable; it is not science.

Theory gets refuted when it fails to explain what it claims to explain or when it fails to verify predictions it makes.

Every scientific theory is either true or false; if it is true, then it cannot be false; and if it is false, then it cannot be true.

Therefore; when anyone comes up with a theory and claims that most scientific theories are false; then being a member of the same set of theories, the very theory becomes paradoxical. If the theory is true, then it is false; and if it is false; well, it cannot be true.

Enjoy the paradox.


But don't expect to find clues in your horoscopes.

:D :) :thumbsup:

[SRS]

All Nobel-Prize winning Indians have been Brahmins. Even in the area of literature, the only Nobel-Prize winner has been a Brahmin. This is the one and only proof necessary to establish the success of Vedanta.

Enjoy the stuttering, repetitious, half-baked, dissonance-riddled whining from the atheists and their <-------------- supporters! Just keep in mind that no Western scientist has ever quoted from "Kural" or whatever.

Even in this thread, the <-------------- are too scared to defend "Kural", assuming such a defense was possible in the first place. Since I am a ----------->, I wouldn't know!

[Rohit]

The fact is rather contrary as clearly expressed in the following famous quote of Einstein:


The religion of the future will be a cosmic religion. The religion which is based on experience, which refuses dogmatic. If there's any religion that would cope the scientific needs, it will be Buddhism.

Albert Einstein
The fact is, there are over 6 times more Buddhist Nobel Prize winners than there are Hindus, even when the Buddhist population of the world is 1/3 of that of Hindus. Which essentially implies that a Buddhist is over 18 times more likely to win the Nobel Prize than a Hindu.

Enjoy the Paradox

:D :) :thumbsup:

[thamiz]

Enjoy the stuttering, repetitious, half-baked, dissonance-riddled whining from the atheists and their <-------------- supporters! Just keep in mind that no Western scientist has ever quoted from "Kural" or whatever.

Even in this thread, the <-------------- are too scared to defend "Kural", assuming such a defense was possible in the first place. Since I am a ----------->, I wouldn't know!

You know the pity is thiruvaLLuvar who wrote kuRaL can very well be an open-minded Brahmin too! So, cut down your NONSENSE of linking vedananta-Nobel--kural-thamizh-sanskrit and so forth.

Sir CV Raman knew thirukuRaL too. So did genius Ramanujam! They both knew thamizh too.

So your therory fails BIG TIME once again, unfortunately ! :(

[selvakumar]

The fact is, there are over 6 times more Buddhist Nobel Prize winners than there are Hindus, even when the Buddhist population of the world is 1/3 of that of Hindus. Which essentially implies that a Buddhist is over 18 times more likely to win the Nobel Prize than a Hindu.


Let me hope that the coming generations won't disappoint Einstein by keeping his theory E = MC^2 as something that can never be touched up on :thumbsup:

[selvakumar]

All Nobel-Prize winning Indians have been Brahmins. Even in the area of literature, the only Nobel-Prize winner has been a Brahmin. This is the one and only proof necessary to establish the success of Vedanta.


:x :x

[NOV]

This thread is going in an unhealthy direction and totally off course.

PM me if you have a reason why this thread needs to be unlocked.