A shame

[pavalamani pragasam]

In this particular case, the boy is trying to pacify one side at the expense of unfair hurt to the other. Being politic requires not hurting either side. Since he lacks the tact to do so & the guts to put his foot down at one point he fails to look masculine in my opinion.

LM, your ridicule reminds me of an old Tamil poem describing kuRuththOlai neettOlaiyai paarththu siriththa sirippu! It is a very old custom!!! This manner of youth!!!

[crazy]

In this particular case, the boy is trying to pacify one side at the expense of unfair hurt to the other. Being politic requires not hurting either side. Since he lacks the tact to do so & the guts to put his foot down at one point he fails to look masculine in my opinion.

LM, your ridicule reminds me of an old Tamil poem describing kuRuththOlai neettOlaiyai paarththu siriththa sirippu! It is a very old custom!!! This manner of youth!!!

u reminds me of my grandma :( aana avanga adha konjam maatthi solluvaanga
...sth like ....kurutholai sirichichaam :?

[pavalamani pragasam]

Yes, I meant the same seyyuL! My grandma too brought us up with those lessons!

[littlemaster1982]

PP Mam,

I just don't agree with your generalised comments on youth (including your last post). That's why I reacted so. No offence meant.

[pavalamani pragasam]

Sorry if It sounded like generalisation. I am relating 2 specific cases which are a sample of increasing irresponsibilty in the youth. That does not mean all youth are inclined to act like that. The majority still follow sensible, respectful ways. I am like Kalam, with immense faith in youth who have not so far let me down generally in their judicious, balanced, enlightened behaviour. Only certain particular instances where the youth show lack of judgement, courage & justice I get pained & angered.

[littlemaster1982]

PP Maam,

Even in those two cases, elders too have their share of mistakes. Everything narrows down to the individual's way of handling things, IMO.

[pavalamani pragasam]

Sorry, from my point of view, in these 2 cases the parents have only overindulged their wards!!! That in my view is their mistake!!! You see, unlike in the west, our people still have to abide by the rules & expectations of their commuity & society, besides elders of the family. Our children are not left to live their lives independently from very young age. We feed them, pay their fees, dream for their future with a raw kind of animal attachment, expecting practically nothing in return except their happiness. Not as 'civilised' as our western counterparts! Or too civilised with refined sentiments- unlike animals & birds which tend their young only till thy learn to find food & cover, to survive on their own. The concept of family life is rather deeply embedded in our tradition with mutual responsibilities. In our system weightage should be given to many things besides one's OWN happiness.

[littlemaster1982]

My views will be entirely contradicting to yours. Anyway, let us agree to disagree :D

[pavalamani pragasam]

:yes:

[Sudhaama]

.

My views will be entirely contradicting to yours. Anyway, let us agree to disagree :D

Yes. My dear Friend "littlemaster1982",

Welcome to DIFFER...

This Forum is intended to discuss on different and divergent views.

So please come out in detail.. on what you have got to say...

... opposing our PP Madam's stand.
.

[Badri]

Sorry if It sounded like generalisation. I am relating 2 specific cases which are a sample of increasing irresponsibilty in the youth. That does not mean all youth are inclined to act like that. The majority still follow sensible, respectful ways. I am like Kalam, with immense faith in youth who have not so far let me down generally in their judicious, balanced, enlightened behaviour. Only certain particular instances where the youth show lack of judgement, courage & justice I get pained & angered.

PP Ma'am, if youth have to show all the judgement courage and justice then what is the use of the mature elders? Youth of every generation is always brash. They - including you, I am sure in your youth - are a little helpless under the influence of society, their own raging hormones, their confusions and self-discovery. That is why society needs elders who have already been through all that. They have themselves been under the same forceful emotions and impressions and now are aware of "nallathu kettathu".

That is why they have the supreme responsibility of guiding today's youth. Chumma, sidelines-la ninnu vedikka parkathu illa, periyavanga vela. In these 2 cases, the mistake is also on the part of the parents of both sides. Littlemaster sonnathula entha thappum illa.

Innikki mattum illa, enikkumey youth orey maathiri thaan. But how much they can control those emotions and impulses depends on how well the parents have influenced them. Vara vara parents and eldersey poor examples! Ithula chumma youth-ai blame panni enna?

Puli-kku piranthathu poonai aaguma-nu sollavathu pola, avan kozhai naa, athukku enna avana mattum kuttram kandupudikka mudiyuma? Neenga senjathu oru vithathula generalisation thaan! The other vast majority of the cases where you say the youth have not let you down - konjam antha cases la circumstances, situations, valarpu, parents' involvement - ellathayum kavanikkanum. appadi contexts-ai karuthaama oru statement panna athan peru generalisation thaaney!

[pavalamani pragasam]

Thanx, Badri, for your comments! Somehow I feel tired to enter into intricacies of generalising! Representing my side I can only state that the elders are no more autocratic! I vividly remember my childhood days when the youngsters will not sit near the elders or talk- leave alone argue- on equal terms. Now with less number of children who are brought up with extreme, exclusive attention & pampering the attitude of parents is pure indulgence unlike in old times. In some cases they end up in misplaced confidence of the freedom given. There is definitely a difference in the way my hubby & his brother interact with their parents & the way our own sons interact with us. The normally changing times. The attachments are the same but their expressions are not. How far both sides need to compromise is the reality that is painful. How far can one's tolerance be stretched for their beloved children's sake is the excruciating dilemma in some families as I have cited. The parents want their children to be happy, undoubtedly. In the process unnecessary agony in some families.
It is a pity I can't put forward my point without looking dictatorial. Perhaps I am given to feeling too emotional in matters of familial duties/responsibilities. I can only feel sorry for being misunderstood. If it can't be helped, so be it then!

[Sudhaama]

Thanx, Badri, for your comments! Somehow I feel tired to enter into intricacies of generalising! Representing my side I can only state that the elders are no more autocratic! I vividly remember my childhood days when the youngsters will not sit near the elders or talk- leave alone argue- on equal terms. Now with less number of children who are brought up with extreme, exclusive attention & pampering the attitude of parents is pure indulgence unlike in old times. In some cases they end up in misplaced confidence of the freedom given. There is definitely a difference in the way my hubby & his brother interact with their parents & the way our own sons interact with us. The normally changing times. The attachments are the same but their expressions are not. How far both sides need to compromise is the reality that is painful. How far can one's tolerance be stretched for their beloved children's sake is the excruciating dilemma in some families as I have cited. The parents want their children to be happy, undoubtedly. In the process unnecessary agony in some families.
It is a pity I can't put forward my point without looking dictatorial. Perhaps I am given to feeling too emotional in matters of familial duties/responsibilities. I can only feel sorry for being misunderstood. If it can't be helped, so be it then!

Yes. Well said... My dear PP Madam,

I have got a lot more to say... supporting your views...

..based on my vast experience all over India and overseas as well.

I will reply to the valid counter-points raised by our friend Badri.

Prior to that stage... Madam, please reply specifically to the points put forth by Badri...

...in the angle of youngsters.

Your present reply is tangential and general...

...without touching his meaningful Questions...

... countering your Overall stand.

Can we know your views more specifically please.?
.

[sarna_blr]

I too thought of a appropriate thread for posting somenews ......recently i read an article in kumudham.....regarding camera mobiles....

A man got shocked by seeing his personal life video in YOUTUBE....

4 hostel girls got shocked seeing their privacy over net....

like this more....because they themself captured those things for அல்ப சந்தோஷம் and deleted after fewdays.....then they might have taken their party photos and might have given to develop in unknown photo shops....

They have pointed out few technical details regarding DO NOT PANIC software...which will recover the files which have been permenantly deleted...even after formatting....Any idea about this....

[pavalamani pragasam]

sarna_blr, I too read it! advanced technology's side effects! Nobel never imagined the abuse his invention will be put to! When a useful tool is invented perverst hacks sprout to abuse it. A useful feature of the mobile's memory card is put to misuse by some vicious, tainted minds!

Sudhamma, the point raised about 'cowardice' of boys: it is rather painful & shameful to see young boys not taking a firm stand on what they should do, what is more important, what is more fair, what is wiser in the long run. In the case of the Mudhaliar boy, for instance, after showing courage in choosing a girl against the beliefs of the family should he not show the same courage in asking his mother not to pressurise the girl's family into official name-changing, implicit following of their traditional rites? He is afraid of tantrums from his mother, but is insensitive to the deep sentiments of his girl & her people. Should he not be more considerate, tread a fairer middle path? Avoid many heartaches to his girl's family also? Maamiyaar kodumai takes place only in houses where the son does not prescribe the limits to his mother. Of course, sensible, generous women do not indulge in vetti bandha, unjust domination eliminating all scope for friction.
The boy would have stood in my esteem if he had persuaded his people for a registered marriage- unakkum vENdaam, enakkum vENdaam, rites of neither side followed. That way both families would have saved from undue agonies. The boy should have taken the responsibility to accomplish this. He was afraid of losing his mother's consent! Desperate to have it at ALL COSTS. Do you call this fair? brave? masculine?

I get so sad to go into the heartaches some children create, as if it is personal, some weakness in me perhaps, and wish to be spared explaining further.

[Lambretta]

Vara vara parents and eldersey poor examples!
Sad but true! :(

[pavalamani pragasam]

Just came to add this:
Badri says, "Vara vara parents and elders set poor examples!"

Is this not a generalisation? For sensationalism Media covers real & imaginary stories of elderly people going astray (that is in my point of view). I vaguely remember a serial story, 'kanavukaLai thinbOm' by Prapanjan, I think which talks about middle age extramarital love & a daughter taking it in her stride, supporting her mother's options. This is not only unrealistic but highly dangerous- creating bad trends, setting ultramodern standards in line with western culture. It is not a thing that happens very often in our world! Why publicise such freak incidents, making it normal, making it grow, begging for acceptance of such norms?

Media's irresponsibility in misguiding today's youth is my most sore grievance. At vulnerable age they are exposed to very unhealthy, spicy, sensual stimulants. The celebrities are setting & preaching unhealthy relationship trends. The older generations were lucky enough in not having such uncensored, unlimited exposures, at least not in such proportions.

Not all parents find the chance to discuss current trends, engage with their wards in healthy debate of different concepts. I was of the opinion that children intuitively knew their parents' likes & dislikes whether they be vocally or silently asserted. Unlike in olden times there is literal & figurative distance between the parents & children. They meet only for a few weeks or months in a year altogether. And these short meetings have their own limitations for serious stipulations.

[sarna_blr]

Just came to add this:
Badri says, "Vara vara parents and elders set poor examples!"

Is this not a generalisation? For sensationalism Media covers real & imaginary stories of elderly people going astray (that is in my point of view). I vaguely remember a serial story, 'kanavukaLai thinbOm' by Prapanjan, I think which talks about middle age extramarital love & a daughter taking it in her stride, supporting her mother's options. This is not only unrealistic but highly dangerous- creating bad trends, setting ultramodern standards in line with western culture. It is not a thing that happens very often in our world! Why publicise such freak incidents, making it normal, making it grow, begging for acceptance of such norms?

Media's irresponsibility in misguiding today's youth is my most sore grievance. At vulnerable age they are exposed to very unhealthy, spicy, sensual stimulants. The celebrities are setting & preaching unhealthy relationship trends. The older generations were lucky enough in not having such uncensored, unlimited exposures, at least not in such proportions.

Not all parents find the chance to discuss current trends, engage with their wards in healthy debate of different concepts. I was of the opinion that children intuitively knew their parents' likes & dislikes whether they be vocally or silently asserted. Unlike in olden times there is literal & figurative distance between the parents & children. They meet only for a few weeks or months in a year altogether. And these short meetings have their own limitations for serious stipulations.

:roll: ...unga vayasu enna........ :confused2: ......

Oru vElai ungalukku kalyanam aayi oru payyan irundhaa......4 aaNpilliagal adhirshttashaaligal....1..thangalai endreduththa thandhai....2...kaipidiththa kanavar....3....ungal thamayan (magan)....

4...adhu naan dhaan...unga co-hubber......

Hatsoff for ur words......anubavangalai vida sirandha aasaan...indha ulagil vErevarum illai.....ungal vaarththaigal ovvondrum thangalin anubavangalaagiya muththukkalin chidharal ena naan ninakkirEn......naan enna solla nenachchanO...adhayE neengalum sollitteenga....

[pavalamani pragasam]

sarna_blr, since you are relatively new to Hub, you don't know many details about me unlike other regular hubbers who are my very good friends. I am 59 years old, my husband retired, 3 children- 2 boys, 1 girl- all married, 5 grandsons & 1 granddaughter. When I was the guest in the guest thread long ago I had paid tribute to the men who are behind my progress & prosperity -my father & hubby. Now my younger generations -besides my children, my dil's, sil & grandchildren-are extending full, warm support to me! I never fail to count my blessings!

[sarna_blr]

sarna_blr, since you are relatively new to Hub, you don't know many details about me unlike other regular hubbers who are my very good friends. I am 59 years old, my husband retired, 3 children- 2 boys, 1 girl- all married, 5 grandsons & 1 granddaughter. When I was the guest in the guest thread long ago I had paid tribute to the men who are behind my progress & prosperity -my father & hubby. Now my younger generations -besides my children, my dil's, sil & grandchildren-are extending full, warm support to me! I never fail to count my blessings!

......adhaana paaththEn...indha kaalaththu ponnunga ellaam ippadi pEsa maaattaangalE......

BTB...ungala paattinu kooppidalaama....if u dont mind.....

sarna_blr...appadinnu kooppiduradha vida....saravana'ne kooppidalaam....

[pavalamani pragasam]

enakku muthalil konjam athirchiyaagavum, erichalaagavum iruntha vishayam, iththanai naaL maRRa oorkaLil 'aunty'yaaga irunthuvittu ingu piRantha oorukku innum athiga naraimudiyudan vanthuvitta piRagu pothu idangaLil 'paatti' enRu kooppittathu!!! :lol: paarkkaththaan paatti but manasellaam kumari, illaiyillai kuzanthai! :rotfl2: en piLLaigaL ATM enRaal aunty-turned-modern enRu solvaarkaL! vayathu kuRikkaatha PP enRa peyar enakku migavum pidiththathu!

[mr_karthik]

Yes PP mam,

Unga karuththukkaLil eppOthum iLamaiyaithaan paarkkiROm. migavum theLivaana arumaiyaana viLakkangaL.

hats off...

[pavalamani pragasam]

:ty: :D

[pavalamani pragasam]

[tscii:dcdb9f04e5]A news item in the front page of ‘The Hindu’ today:

Software professional kills wife, hangs himself

Bangalore: A software professional allegedly killed his wife, suspecting her fidelity, before hanging himself to death here on Saturday.
Police identified the couple as Amith Budhiraj(30) of Infosys Technologies Ltd. And Rinku Sachadev(28). It is learnt that Rinku sachadev was a managing executive with the Standard Chartered Bank.


Now I am eager to hear our hubbers’ comments upon this. Feel free to express your reactions & opinions
[/tscii:dcdb9f04e5]

[crazy]

:cry:

must have seen a doctor :?

[Punnaimaran]

It is indeed very sad and incidents like these are on the rise in India.

There may be many reasons which may have influenced his decision and I do not wish to comment on other people's private lives.

IMO, any mentally stable person will not take the life of another person for whatever reason.

But generally speaking, the main cause for these type of incidents is the failure of LOVE for each other.

One of my college professor would say that the secret of successful marriage is the 3 T's....TOUCH, TALK & TEASE.

But nowadays couples donot spend enough time together due to their tight work schedules or whatever reasons and this is one of the main reasons for the failing marriages.

They should recognise that True Happiness lies not only in the material wealth.

"It's pretty hard to tell what does bring happiness. Poverty an' wealth have both failed".
Kin Hubbard

[pavalamani pragasam]

It did seem delicate to discuss a private matter. But once it becomes front page news such niceties become irrelevant. Besides, for long, I am hearing not very happy news about the married lives of software engineers in B'lore- India's silicon valley- that I fear this might be just the tip of the iceberg!

[pavalamani pragasam]

[tscii:1c457ab255]Well, this is what occurred to me:


East’s tryst with West?

Is the new ‘emancipation’ turning too heady a mixture for the Indian woman? Tragically a deadly potion too! Is this a bold attempt at differentiating ‘marriage’ from ‘sex’ a la mode the West? The Indian man not ready, not willing to accept the new trends? Relieving the ‘shackles’ of marriage on woman? Redefining woman’s sexual choices? A new brand of boundless freedom? A cancer in the minds of some modern women! Not only self-annihilating but destroying the values Indian womanhood has stood for so long! Rocking the foundation of our beautiful family system built on marriage and mutual fidelity!
[/tscii:1c457ab255]

[dsath]

Why are we blaming the West for relationship crisis when our own epics are full of them.
In Ramayanam the villan abducts the wife and the righteous husband wages war and brings her back home. But doesn’t trust her fidelity and drives her out of his home. Now I don’t want to go into details namely saying Raman was right or wrong but basically the fact remains that their marriage was not successful.
I don’t even want to go into Mahabharatam, which is seasoned generously with fidelity issues. Take them out and the tale is not as half as intriguing.
Turning the attention to our own Silapathikaram, wow what a tale. Its got it all romance, betrayal, anger, loyalty. It would easily win over any of our present day soaps. How would you define Madhavai….. I think she would fit into all of the below (maybe except the west bit)......

[tscii:f6dd732ea7]
Is the new ‘emancipation’ turning too heady a mixture for the Indian woman? Tragically a deadly potion too! Is this a bold attempt at differentiating ‘marriage’ from ‘sex’ a la mode the West? The Indian man not ready, not willing to accept the new trends? Relieving the ‘shackles’ of marriage on woman? Redefining woman’s sexual choices? A new brand of boundless freedom? A cancer in the minds of some modern women! Not only self-annihilating but destroying the values Indian womanhood has stood for so long! Rocking the foundation of our beautiful family system built on marriage and mutual fidelity!
[/tscii:f6dd732ea7]
Now I haven’t read the epic in its original form, but all the ‘lay person’ readable version screams that she is exactly this.......
Now remind me - when was the story written ?

[Shakthiprabha.]

:thumbsup:

[kannannn]

Why are we blaming the West for relationship crisis when our own epics are full of them.

:exactly:

BTW, PP what makes you think westerners don't take their fidelity seriously? IMO they are not all that different from us, atleast in terms of marriage vows.

[pavalamani pragasam]

dsath, I fondly think about the raging war my kavithai, 'puthiya maadhavikaL' created in Hub a few years back! I was censuring puthiya maadhavikaL of our present world & many didn't take it well! As for the puranas & epics we must remember their period which, in my opinion, are definitely belong to a less cultured/refined level of civilisation & customs. Our human intellect, intelligence, discrimating/discerning/evaluating capacity has sharpened/refined to a superior level. We have evolved more sensible, civic rules & regulations, norms & ethics. Physically, emotionally & morally we have a clearer, stricter ideas/ideals about human relationships. We know what is best for the family & the society. Execeptions are always there. Let us concentrate on general mode of living styles.
dsath & Kannannn, the impression I get from the English novels I read, whatever genre it is, about the way of their living is SICKENING!!! Just that!

[dsath]

Refined civilization or not, we have been having relationship crisis, in the past and the present, so why blame it on the West ?
For deriving a solution to a problem, the first step is identifying the problem and the next logical step would be to determine the source. In this case we are looking at the wrong place for the source.
It is convenient to blame 'West' or an outside source for our problem. But unfortunately that is not the case. I gave the examples of the epics to point out that we in India have been facing the same problems for a very long time. The source of the problem is within us. We have to figure it out.

Recently, women emancipation is targeted for the breakdown of family values and family crisis. Again, I think this is not the correct source for the problem.

About the family values in West, it is not as bad as it sounds. Their views and hence lifestyles are much more liberal than ours but that doesn't mean that they don't have any values or respect them when it comes to relationships. Fidelity is a very important issue in a relationship, in a marriage or otherwise all over the world with a few exceptions. One of the exceptions being us where fidelity seems to be important for only one gender.

What we need is an honest introspection of our society and the heart and stomach to accept the ills and treat it. The question is do we have it in us?

[app_engine]

>>the impression I get from the English novels I read, whatever genre it is, about the way of their living is SICKENING!!! Just that!<<

கொஞ்சம் அவங்க நியூஸ் பேப்பரும் படிங்களேன்:-) Why don't you read about the recent NY Governor's resignation story and compare with our "esteemed" politicians?

[pavalamani pragasam]

No use beating around the bush, dsath! My abomination for dating culture, doing away with the preciousness of virginity, casual sex, anywhere, with anyone, at any time, a quiet understanding that woman is a curvaceous body to feast the eyes of men - nothing improper or indecent in it, in fact the most right thing to do- living alone, living together....the list is endless, I find these highly distasteful to the way of life I have been used to, & most of our humdrum neighbours are used to. Our great thinkers fought for evils against women, & have eradicated all ugly practices down the unthinking dark ages of the past. They wanted women to live with freedom, dignity & intelligence. But most of the empowerment & emancipation of women advertised/propagated in MEDIA here is aping the lifestyle of west which is not at all akin to our values & traditions. kaNNai viRRu Oviyam vaanguvathil enakku udanpaadillai. Is standing on one's own legs financially, churning away male companionship in the meaningful relationship of marriage the sole & supreme aim of women's liberation? The aggrandisement of self is most unnatural for our concept of feminism! Divorce should be a solution to unsolvable differences/defects. But do you think it is so nowadays? Where is the sanctity of marriage? The way the westerners casually have sex with any 'friend' nauseates me. MAJORITY OF OUR PEOPLE DO NOT LIVE LIKE THAT. But the temptations & opportunities to switch over are many & great! :cry3:

[app_engine]

Well, I'm in no way trying to defend and glorify the family life situation in the west. This is definitely in shambles, espeically for children - in my last project one of the team mates had a 20 year old "my child" and a 12 year old "your child (husband's from a prior marriage)" taking care of the 4 year old "our child".

However, that does not mean that it had been highly valued back home. It's true that a big % of middle class people value the family and work hard for the welfare of kids, marital fidelity etc but the same cannot be said about those outside this group.

I know of a childless couple in our village who adopted a girl baby (who happened to be my sister's school age friend). The wife died due to sickness and the 60 yr old man married this 16 yr old adopted daughter:-( So much for our culture:-(

[kannannn]

No use beating around the bush, dsath! My abomination for dating culture, doing away with the preciousness of virginity, casual sex, anywhere, with anyone, at any time, a quiet understanding that woman is a curvaceous body to feast the eyes of men - nothing improper or indecent in it, in fact the most right thing to do- living alone, living together...... The way the westerners casually have sex with any 'friend' nauseates me. MAJORITY OF OUR PEOPLE DO NOT LIVE LIKE THAT. But the temptations & opportunities to switch over are many & great! :cry3:

PP, novels tend to invent extraordinary situations to keep the readers engrossed. It is not all that bad in the West. Please keep an open mind and and interact with some westerners if you get a chance. I am sure you will be surprised. Other than that I don't have anything to say on this topic (romba pesiyaachu..).

[pavalamani pragasam]

Please do not quote such aberrations, rare occurrences to create a sense of normal life!

[kannannn]

Life is not all honky dory in the west, but it is also not as bad as you portray. Atleast the people I know don't go around lying with everyone. If you want to form your opinions based on what you read in novels, I don't know what to say. Naan joot.. :yessir:

[app_engine]

And I have seen 100's of similar "shame" things, involving people of everyday lives (not film stars or such celebrities) in average TN town / village neighborhoods. Let's not boast over other countries, simply based on some "novels" read.

And in the 5 or so years that I lived abroad, yet to see one indecent "eve-teasing" incident while I witnessed 1000's of them while in India. நாம் பெருமைப்பட பெருசா ஒண்ணுமில்ல:-(

[pavalamani pragasam]

My second son has done a few stints in US on deputaion before & after marriage. My dil confirms my view of their life!!! As for my peep through novels only plots & events are imagined, but the background, the texture of the contexts are bound to be real -coming out so naturally, be it Robin Cook, Michael Christon, Iyn Rand, Sheldon or any one.

[app_engine]

If you think perverted thinking, infidelity without others knowing, kaRpu only for women, kaRpu only for men who can't materially care for >1 woman etc. (TN culture) is better than "infidelity by consent" (western culture), one cannot argue madam:-)

Both are equally shameful. And there are people with values (in fact a lot of them) in west as well.

[dsath]

[tscii:797dc92998]I think its the same everywhere. In the West, India is considered a third world country and the TV screen beams mostly the slums. Their opinion of India is very different from what it really is. Some people I know actually think all Indians are Punjabis. Only very few can look through this image.

We in India have similarly formed a wrong interpretation of the West, especially their values. Like app_engine, I am not defending the West's current family system. But we have got to look through this. At my son's school, I see many grand parents dropping and collecting their grandchildren. Many of my colleague prefer to live near 'family'. Actually one of my unmarried colleague has three children and he has been living with his girlfriend(the mother of the children) for 10 plus years. Of the 5 working days, the children are cared for by his girlfriend's parents and the remaining 2 days by his parents.
And I second Kannann’s suggestions.......
[/tscii:797dc92998]

[app_engine]

My second son has done a few stints in US on deputaion before & after marriage. My dil confirms my view of their life!!! As for my peep through novels only plots & events are imagined, but the background, the texture of the contexts are bound to be real -coming out so naturally, be it Robin Cook, Michael Christon, Iyn Rand, Sheldon or any one.

While at a Ford project, they gave a training on "Mutual Respect" and it had a "standard scenario" where a caucasian man viewing an oriental woman to be "easily available" and making advances. This training was to help people avoid "stereotyping" (i.e. making generalizations that some group is of such characteristic). So, everyone have their "looking down" of others, like what your posting above indicates.

I don't blame your son & dil -most Indians who visit (or even live for many years in) the west may have had initially a cultural shock and then develop a tendency to overemphasize the differences. This is especially true when one does not have much opportunities to really live with them culturally (like attending marriages / baby showers / bridal showers / deaths / memorials, having dinners at their homes, having them over many times in our home, having their children sleepover at our home and ours in their homes etc). At least in U.S., most Indians have their off-work associations with only Indians and hence lack real understanding of the lives of other groups.

And it's also typical in TN society to "hide" one's / one's family's / one's relatives' ugly facts. It's not so with a typical westerner.

[pavalamani pragasam]

If you think perverted thinking, infidelity without others knowing, kaRpu only for women, kaRpu only for men who can't materially care for >1 woman etc. (TN culture) is better than "infidelity by consent" (western culture), one cannot argue madam:-)

Both are equally shameful. And there are people with values (in fact a lot of them) in west as well.

It always ends like this!!! All my serious, sincere belief in Bharathi's 'aaNukkum peNNukkum pothuvinil kaRpai vaippOm', all my efforts to highlight the superiority of feminism, my deep anguish at abuses around me, under my nose as well as in the far corners of the world have never been rightly understood!!! A prude, a puritan, a moral police, an anti-womanist..all sorts of credit I have already earned over the years! But thank God, my spirit is dauntless & my beliefs unshaken! May peace prevail!

[bingleguy]

I know of a childless couple in our village who adopted a girl baby (who happened to be my sister's school age friend). The wife died due to sickness and the 60 yr old man married this 16 yr old adopted daughter:-( So much for our culture:-(

:shock: where did this happen ???? i mean .... in India ???

[app_engine]

Some of my Canadian friends in Toronto are learning Thamizh, one of them even visited Srilanka during the Tsunami time. At times I shudder to think if they read "Kumudam" and "Vikatan" stories regularly, what they will think about us:-(

And I find it increasingly difficult to recommend any Thamizh movie to my American or Canadian friends, worrying what they will think of me myself!

[app_engine]

bingleguy, it's in a village near Dindigul. I played in their home during my childhood and the man was employed in the same place as my parents and lived in the same staff "quarters" :-(

[app_engine]

It always ends like this!!! All my serious, sincere belief in Bharathi's 'aaNukkum peNNukkum pothuvinil kaRpai vaippOm', all my efforts to highlight the superiority of feminism, my deep anguish at abuses around me, under my nose as well as in the far corners of the world have never been rightly understood!!! A prude, a puritan, a moral police, an anti-womanist..all sorts of credit I have already earned over the years! But thank God, my spirit is dauntless & my beliefs unshaken! May peace prevail!

East'kkum West'kkum ungaL vimarsanaththaippodhuvil vaiththAl, vivAdhamE illai:-) And as for as values and morals are concerned, please don't think my conviction is any less than yours:-)

[bingleguy]

bingleguy, it's in a village near Dindigul. I played in their home during my childhood and the man was employed in the same place as my parents and lived in the same staff "quarters" :-(

Oh my good god !!! i really dont understand the reasoning behind this .... he could have continued to have her as his daughter ...... :omg: how can he think her as his partner ......

this is highly irritating ...

[app_engine]

bingleguy, there's more to this cruel story. He died after giving her a child:-( That very young widow, poor, not much educated, without any stable job, had to bring this child up by going to "kooli vElai". Often, she'll come to my mom to get material help. Unfortunately I don't know the current status, all these happened 20 yrs back.

[bingleguy]

bingleguy, there's more to this cruel story. He died after giving her a child:-( That very young widow, poor, not much educated, without any stable job, had to bring this child up by going to "kooli vElai". Often, she'll come to my mom to get material help. Unfortunately I don't know the current status, all these happened 20 yrs back.

oye shaks .... i really dont understand how ppl can be so cruel .... for all other things ... we say Society Society ... wat was the society doin at this time ....

[app_engine]

How many in U.S. can get away after dropping pARangal on the head of both parents, killing them while sleeping? And then get the property, doing veLLAmai right there in the farm?
(This was another incident from my childhood that I can never forget, happened in a village nearby. A younger son of the murdered couple worked with my dad).

I reiterate, we belong to a society that is as much corrupt (if not worse) like anywhere else in the world:-(

[crazy]

God :banghead:

[bingleguy]

How many in U.S. can get away after dropping pARangal on the head of both parents, killing them while sleeping? And then get the property, doing veLLAmai right there in the farm?
(This was another incident from my childhood that I can never forget, happened in a village nearby. A younger son of the murdered couple worked with my dad).

I reiterate, we belong to a society that is as much corrupt (if not worse) like anywhere else in the world:-(

You are absolutely right !!!!! this is terrible .....
I feel u ve really undergone a lot of fierce things during ur childhood !! :roll: :(
idellam ippo kekkave enakku kashtamaa irukku ... nerla paathrundhaa ... i could not control myself i believe

but lemme think of something ... how can something like this happen in our country ... is it due to population ????? are we not bothered about fella human just becoz there are so many of similar species ....

atleast here in the states they may not really love to be a friend of urs ... but atleast give a simple smile n wish u when u see them ... be it real or false ... it gives u some soothing ness ..... but even here i ve seen desis ... with a rigid face always frowning ....

[crazy]

BG
i think its bcoz we r poor :? ...when we r poor and living under horrible conditions we "believe" we have the rights to ignore other ppl lives :( or we simply dont have time to care for other ppl's lives :(

[bingleguy]

BG
i think its bcoz we r poor :? ...when we r poor and living under horrible conditions we "believe" we have the rights to ignore other ppl lives :( or we simply dont have time to care for other ppl's lives :(

IMO .... financial position SHOULD not have a say in believing HUMANITY !!! but unfortunately the World is dragged into it ... just like being pulled under the wheels ....

Watever conditions we are in .... Rich or Poor .... HUMANITARIAN aspect has to be given importance .... Tats where we make a difference in understanding wat a human value is ..... The answer is just in our own self ....

Living for society... my goodness !!! i dont knw how it makes sense ... living for ones own self is the one that makes more sense to me ..... As such unfortunately we never do that !!!!

[app_engine]

>>I feel u ve really undergone a lot of fierce things during ur childhood !! <<

Fortunately, I didn't have to endure any such terrible thing personally so far:-) However, being empathetic, the pain is always felt as if it were mine.

Not just one or two - there are many many such cases (some'll beat anything that appears on Kumudam Reporter and such magazines).

[bingleguy]

>>I feel u ve really undergone a lot of fierce things during ur childhood !! <<

Fortunately, I didn't have to endure any such terrible thing personally so far:-) However, being empathetic, the pain is always felt as if it were mine.

Not just one or two - there are many many such cases (some'll beat anything that appears on Kumudam Reporter and such magazines).

Sorry :oops: I too meant that .... the feeling of such fierce things ....

This is terrible !!!! Why isnt there a humanitarian factor ???? why dont they think for a second what they are doin to a fellow human .... ????

[crazy]

pathu pera kaappaatha oruthana pali kodutha maari aachu nilamai :roll:

thavikkira vaai'ku thanni kooda kodukkaatha kodumai ellaam namma naatila thaan nadakkidhu :( :oops:

hm.... :cry:

[app_engine]

bingleguy,

If you look at news reports about crimes (or even statistics), you may find that a big % is committed by family members / relatives (who have more connection than the general human cord).

There are not so much bad things done to humans by animals, in comparison:-)

[bingleguy]

bingleguy,

If you look at news reports about crimes (or even statistics), you may find that a big % is committed by family members / relatives (who have more connection than the general human cord).

There are not so much bad things done to humans by animals, in comparison:-)

True .... and thats due to a reason that feud happens when interaction and closeness prevail ....
veetula illadha podhu vandhu pennai kondru vittu nagai ya thiruduradhu ....
kadaila panathai eduthadhu therinja mudhalaaliyai theethu katradhu ....

kadavule ..... idellam pannitu enga poida mudiyum nnu ninaikkiraanga ... ???? sattam illai nnalum ... kaalathukku badhil solla num illayaa ???

i just remembered a dialogue which i heard in CSI Miami yesterday

Detective : You killed him .....
Killer : Ys ... i cant think of him in my place .... replacing me ...i cant allow somebody to spoil my career ...
Detective : for all you knw ... you just did it .....

[Sudhaama]

.



... //I fondly think about the raging war my...kavithai, 'puthiya maadhavikaL'... created in Hub a few years back! I was censuring puthiya maadhavikaL of our present world & many didn't take it well! //

I am surprised to see such a comment from my Respected PP Madam.!..

..Does this mean that the Silappadhikaaram character MADHAVI was NOT A CHASTE Woman.

..simply because she was born in a Deva-dasi community.?

According to Silappadhikaaram she is depicted as a HIGHLY CHASTE WOMAN ... in No way lesser than Kannaki.

Although on the directions and insistence by her mother... Madhavi lured Kovalan towards her... as per her professional approach... just for money... in a Concubine motive...

..after getting contact with Kovalan... she totally gets transformed into an emulative refined good character...

...starts truly loving him and confines to him only... as a CHASTE Second WIFE.

After Kovalan's demise she voluntarily wears the Widow's robes.. and sincerely lives as a Chaste Widow of Kovalan.

I had attended one Patti-manram... headed by Justice Md Ismail... when the Debators arguments were so impressive...

... that Madhavi could be treated high at par with Kannaki and Seetha
.


//As for the puranas & epics we must remember their period which, in my opinion, are definitely belong to a ..less cultured/refined level of civilisation & customs.//

Puranas & Epics were BAD EXAMPLES.?...

No.. We have to understand their high Moral-sense implied and Human-values behind...

..by confronting the Realities of LIFE-CHALLENGES.

...Even Gods have set examples by enacting several dramas...

..by showing to the posterity..."Look when we missed our ideal path and committed mistakes...deviating from Righteousness, we suffered...

..but when we adhered to Dharma, Human Morals, ensuring EMPATHY and Social commitment...

...we were Successful... TRULY HAPPIER.. earning everlasting Fame.

So You Mankind... it is good for you if you can discern from our experience...

...what is right and wrong approach and pursuit in your lives.

The Indian Epics and Culture... especially TAMIL LITERATURE AND CULTURE...

..are the ETERNAL LESSONS for Global Mankind.

Especially the Indian WOMAN-HOOD... VERY GREAT. and highly Emulative.!

Less Culture.??..!!... You mean in India.?

In No way... There were a few Kings as exceptions... But the people on the whole were well and BETTER CULTURED than the present days.

There were Social-Morale and Human-discipline... strictly adhered to by the Society... irrespective of the Royal interferences.

Just at the root of the problem itself... the innocent victiims got the moral support of the Society... in addition to that from the concerned Relatives and Friends.

Most of the Family disputes and Personal injustices were...NIPPED IN THE BUD...

...and solved by the Society itself... without taking up with the Rulers.

Complaining to the Kings was the last resort.

Previously there was at least one sane voice to defend any innocent victim in the society by anyone atrocious dominating Defaulter...

...and question the culprits boldly...

I have keenly observed several cases until about 50 to 70 years back.

Now-a-days.... NOBODY IS DARED TO.!!..

Because the Crusader for Humane justice becomes a mockery... with NO POSITIVE RESULT.

The Human Moral- commitment and involvements by the Social-service minded leaders are discouraged by the Politicians... Pitiable.!!!



// Our human intellect, intelligence, discrimating/ discerning/evaluating capacity has sharpened/refined to a superior level.

We have evolved more sensible, civic rules & regulations, norms & ethics.

Physically, emotionally & morally we have a clearer, stricter ideas/ideals about human relationships.

We know what is best for the family & the society.

Execeptions are always there. Let us concentrate on general mode of living styles.//

Sorry...I DISAGREE..

Our present Society on the whole is getting more and wiser... No doubt...

..More educated... better Knowledged right from childhood. Yes Glad.!

Scientifically far advanced and possesses more facilities for multi-faceted Life-enjoyments... and Advancements.. Well.!

But while the Global Society in general... is advancing BY BRAIN...

..But... DETERIORATING BY HEART... SOCIAL-MORALE... SELF-DISCIPLINE...

...and the Moral COMMITMENTS even to his/her own family...

...and Alas, even to ones own self interests truly.

Now-days most of the people are multi-faced...

..Not TRANSPARENT OPEN BOOKS as were the Elders of Yester-years in general...

Present day Society mostly... Selfish... lacking the sense of Resonsibility... DUBIOUS Characters... Cunning... Hypocratic... Self-deceptive... Exploiting the sincerety of others.

Polticians interference is abnormal and beyond limits... misusing the positions... as also highly irrelevant in most of the countries.

Just for the sake of Money... Human-values are discarded.... in general.

...Especially MEN...more than the WOMEN.!!

The Woman, the God-created exemplary Human... is over-exploited and handled as the Play-toys of Menfolk.



//.... the impression I get from the English novels I read, whatever genre it is, about the way of their living is SICKENING!!! Just that!

In general the good Writers used to get the Origin Spark for their imagination and creations...

..from anyone or more of the current TRUE events and News.

And the fiction woven around such a seed only... is able to impress well the reader ..

...and such a Story becomes the Best seller.

So the healthy minded Authors do not write anything far contrary to the Realities in front.

Good Authors of Positive- outlook and healthy sense in the Overall Social spirit alone become popular in the long run....

...in any Country, of any era.
.

[Lambretta]

Just for the sake of Money... Human-values are discarded.... mostly.

...Especially MEN...more than the WOMEN.!!
I guess, as PP ma'm intended to point out, the "bright side" (ironically speaking!) is that there is going to an equality atleast in this!

And Mr. Sudhaama, w/ due respects to u, pray y r u pointing out PP ma'm for "slinging mud" at Madhavi's image in SilappadikAram when actually it was dsath who pointed said character out in that light inthe 1st place?


So the healthy minded Authors do not write anything far contrary to the Realities in front.

Good Authors of Positive- outlook and healthy sense in the Overall Social spirit alone become popular in the long run....

...in any Country, of any era..
I certainly agree w/ this point of urs! And that reminds me of how many Kushwant Singhs & Anita Nair novels become far faster/easier bestsellers than books by Robin Sharma (the monk who sold his ferrari) or Stepehn Covey....!

[ajithfederer]

Absolutely true bg 8-)


How many in U.S. can get away after dropping pARangal on the head of both parents, killing them while sleeping? And then get the property, doing veLLAmai right there in the farm?
(This was another incident from my childhood that I can never forget, happened in a village nearby. A younger son of the murdered couple worked with my dad).

I reiterate, we belong to a society that is as much corrupt (if not worse) like anywhere else in the world:-(

You are absolutely right !!!!! this is terrible .....
I feel u ve really undergone a lot of fierce things during ur childhood !! :roll: :(
idellam ippo kekkave enakku kashtamaa irukku ... nerla paathrundhaa ... i could not control myself i believe

but lemme think of something ... how can something like this happen in our country ... is it due to population ????? are we not bothered about fella human just becoz there are so many of similar species ....

atleast here in the states they may not really love to be a friend of urs ... but atleast give a simple smile n wish u when u see them ... be it real or false ... it gives u some soothing ness ..... but even here i ve seen desis ... with a rigid face always frowning ....

[pavalamani pragasam]

In another site another gentleman was all agog about the pleasing etiquette of westerners, their cheerful interaction as opposed to Indians giving a cold shoulder to attempts at civility! Is it not pathetic to be reduced to a state of getting solaced by exterior grace opting to be blind to inner graces/virtues? What matters most? How differently people choose!

[app_engine]

>>Is it not pathetic to be reduced to a state of getting solaced by exterior grace opting to be blind to inner graces/virtues? What matters most?<<

PP madam, No doubt the inner personality is more important than the external "polished" lifestyle. However, what gives you the idea that Indians have greater "inner personility" compared to people of other countries?


>>According to Silappadhikaaram she is depicted as a HIGHLY CHASTE WOMAN ... in No way lesser than Kannaki. <<

Sudhaamaji, keeping aside Madhavi for now, I think dsath's condemnation included Mr Kovalan:-) If we banish an average westerner as "immoral", what title will you give to our own kEvalan?

[app_engine]

It would be appreciable if TN's 'patti mandRams' focus on possibilities that will help avoid someone becoming a Kovalan (squandering money in wasteful habits, getting sick / addict etc. causing horrible difficuties to family members and finally ruining oneself) rather than analyzing who was "more" virtuous among K & M:-(

e.g. - கோவலனின் பிழைகளில் எது பெரிது - பரத்தையிடம் சென்றதா? பணியில் தொய்ந்ததா?:-)

[bingleguy]

It would be appreciable if TN's 'patti mandRams' focus on possibilities that will help avoid someone becoming a Kovalan (squandering money in wasteful habits, getting sick / addict etc. causing horrible difficuties to family members and finally ruining oneself) rather than analyzing who was "more" virtuous among K & M:-(

e.g. - கோவலனின் பிழைகளில் எது பெரிது - பரத்தையிடம் சென்றதா? பணியில் தொய்ந்ததா?:-)

:thumbsup:

patti mandram ngardhu verum pechaa mattum illamal irundhaal :-) indru naam ethanaiyo vazhigalil matra naadugalukku munneri iruppom ....

seidhaargal seidhaargal endru solvadhai niruthi vittu ..... idhai ippadi seyyungal endra eppozhudhu solla aarambippomo theriyalai ....

as such .... patti mandram pechu vetti pechu aaga maari vida koodaadhu enbadhe enadhu karuthu ... after all patti mandram pechai ketpavargal dhaane idhai seyal muraikku kondu sella vendum :-)

[pavalamani pragasam]

It is useless to talk about the morals of Kovalan or Madhavi! They belonged to a different period with different social norms.

app_engine, my comparison is exactly with the average Indian & his western counterpart! Not the characters in the freak incidents sensationalised in irresponsible MEDIA, nor the CORRUPT TO THE CORE POLITICIANS & THEIR KIN, nor again the shameless creatures of the small & big screens! Ordinary people, men & women, boys & girls who go about their business abiding by all rules of government & social custom. Any woman here does not go to bed with any man. Our BACHELORS still continue to marry VIRGINS. This is the majority. The MEDIA is hellbent to show it is otherwise, hellbent to make it otherwise! Next generation is not going to be as lucky as the present one! Is it not hell to feel helpless? What I feel most of the time!!!

[app_engine]

>>Our BACHELORS still continue to marry VIRGINS<<

Quite interesting! I have lived as a bachelor in a city different from my own for 5+ years and had interacted with 100's of them (bachelor homes / monthly rental rooms etc.) and can vouch for the fact that <20% of them never had any pre-marital sex. Can we pack all the rest to U.S.?:-) Even among those 20%, if you screen out those who have seen 'maRRa padangaL', you'll find a much smaller percentage remaining. And I'm talking about 80's.

I think you're talking about girls who lived with their "parents only" till marriage and I'm talking about the whole group:-)

[app_engine]

And what about the HIV statistics of TN v/s international %?

[app_engine]

Another thing - you're only talking about sex when it comes to "morals". There is much more, take the case of honesty. Just one example - How many doctors in TN show their correct income and pay the correct tax? (I can cite 1000's of such moral corruption among "average" people and not politicians or cine-field people)

[app_engine]

When I worked in India, we had a "perk" called "Medical allowance" (again talking about 80's -90's). If you submit "medical bills", this allowance is not taxable and otherwise you'll have to pay IT. 95% of employees used to produce fake bills. (I was an object of ridicule for paying tax). Highly moral society, is it?

[app_engine]

>>exactly with the average Indian & his western counterpart<<

Leave out the really poor of India and just take those with decent earnings. Also leave out Indians abroad.

Compare the % that one contributes to some kind of charity with "lowest" income western counterpart. You'll be in for a great surprise, which probably your dil didn't find out:-)

[pavalamani pragasam]

Morals does not mean sex alone, agreed. There is rampant corruption, a gift of the British reign! A mega country of diverse states pulled together with all social wretchedness of illiteracy, poverty & exploitation. Yes, our 'bachelors' are pampered with condom vending machines inside the university campus! The truck drivers & worker crowd are threatened with Pulliraja ads & wooed to adopt safety measures. Nobody to teach integrity! No self restraint! Our youth are not taught what it is! Instant is what the world wants! I said next generation will not be lucky to enjoy the dignity of personal morals in matters of sex; you scorn at my being behind time. Thanx for updating! I still SEE a sane world around me!

[app_engine]

Well, too many posts:-)

My conclusion - no geographical group is holier than others, neither in far away past / near past nor current. PP's conclusion may be different, which may be based on her own observations for about 2 more decades than me and may also have some substance to it. It'll always be better to keep minds open to listen and conclude rather than sticking to one's oringals is all I can say:-)

[app_engine]

>>I still SEE a sane world around me<<

Interstingly, I see nothing different, if I see the total picture, whether it's TN or Michigan:-)

[bingleguy]

Our BACHELORS still continue to marry VIRGINS.

:-) appadinnu nambi dhaan thaali kattuvadhum vaangikolvadhum ingu thirumanamaaga arangerugiradhu ...... :-) unmai avanukkum avalukkum mattume theriyum :-)

[pavalamani pragasam]

Weakness of the flesh may not be new! History is repeating itself. We have heard about Sodom & Gomorrah. We have read about Epicureans & their motto: eat, drink & be merry for tomorrow you shall die. The pendulum swings from this end to that end. A cursed situation to be caught in a time when the pendulum is swinging to reach the 'other' end! If winter comes can spring be far behind?
How did our markets get crowded with cosmetic sellers? Where are they from? Who taught us beauty pageants, emboldening our belles to bare & dare? Who started dating & living together?( No harping on Kovalan story will help) Talk about our times. Who are our models? Whom do we want to ape?

[bingleguy]

I think you're talking about girls who lived with their "parents only" till marriage and I'm talking about the whole group:-)

wat does this guarantee app ???? :-)

[pavalamani pragasam]

Our BACHELORS still continue to marry VIRGINS.

:-) appadinnu nambi dhaan thaali kattuvadhum vaangikolvadhum ingu thirumanamaaga arangerugiradhu ...... :-) unmai avanukkum avalukkum mattume theriyum :-)

angE arangERuvathu thirumaNamillai! mElai naagareegaththin pirathipalippu! vaalauRuntha nariyin kathaiyai ninaivupaduththukiReerkaL!

[bingleguy]

How did our markets get crowded with cosmetic sellers? Where are they from? Who taught us beauty pageants, emboldening our belles to bare & dare? Who started dating & living together?( No harping on Kovalan story will help) Talk about our times. Who are our models? Whom do we want to ape?

:thumbsup: true questions ...... but are we talking about only one gender ?????? isnt there a equal share of both genders onto this situation ?????

[pavalamani pragasam]

This show of utter cynicism cannot hide the truth!

[pavalamani pragasam]

strong-aa irukka vENdiya pombaLa sabalapattaa, vazivittaa, 'weak'-aana aambaLa enna seyvaan, paavam!

[bingleguy]

Our BACHELORS still continue to marry VIRGINS.

:-) appadinnu nambi dhaan thaali kattuvadhum vaangikolvadhum ingu thirumanamaaga arangerugiradhu ...... :-) unmai avanukkum avalukkum mattume theriyum :-)

angE arangERuvathu thirumaNamillai! mElai naagareegaththin pirathipalippu! vaalauRuntha nariyin kathaiyai ninaivupaduththukiReerkaL!

neenga quote panra kadhai enna nnu enakku theriyalai :-)

but wat i was mentioning is ..... how do you standby and say "BACHELORS still continue to marry VIRGINS" in today's world :-) !!!

Pre-marital sex may be an open factor in the West ... but i believed that is a concealed fact in Asia :-) you can never beat the table n say that it is not happening ... its not happ as open as things happen in the west ... tats all .....

naan ippadithaan nnu solli velippadai yaa irukkardhu is Trillion times better than naan nallavan/nallavaL nnu vesham poduraadhu :) its only one's own self knws wat thoughts have passed thru our minds :-) nobody can deny this ..... and only that self knws wat that body went thru :-) not anybody else :-)

melai nAgareegathil pradibalippu nnu sonnengale ... who is it that u are trying to quote here ?

[pavalamani pragasam]

There is nobody in particular I am referring to! inga vEsham pOduRaaLkaL-nnu eppadi adichi solReenga? ellOrumaa?

[bingleguy]

strong-aa irukka vENdiya pombaLa sabalapattaa, vazivittaa, 'weak'-aana aambaLa enna seyvaan, paavam!

adhaavadhu
sabalathula STRONG aa irukkira penn ... nu solreengala ;-)

i remember some scene that i saw in a movie ... :-) Sikappu Rojakkal....

WEAK nnu neenga sonna ambalai :-) andha padathula vara maadiri senjirundhaa :lol: STRONG aana penn seidha kaariyam enna theriyumo ;-) avaL aasaikku iraiaagaadha avan azhindhaal enna ... vaazhdhaal enna ;-)

[app_engine]

>>Sodom & Gomorrah<<

Interestingly, this geographical region , as well as the parts of canaan where sites of sexual orgies were unearthed - are currently part of Asia.

Before beauty pageants also TN had fanatism for 'silukku' and the like. குஷ்புவுக்குக்கோயில் கட்டிய நாட்டில் இருந்து கொண்டு டேட்டிங்கைக்குறை சொல்வதும், கண்ணாடி வீட்டிலிருந்து கல் எறிவதும் =:-)

[bingleguy]

There is nobody in particular I am referring to! inga vEsham pOduRaaLkaL-nnu eppadi adichi solReenga? ellOrumaa?

Tat refers a GENDER :-) feminine .... my quote was not tat .... my quote was :-)


naan ippadithaan nnu solli velippadai yaa irukkardhu is Trillion times better than naan nallavan/nallavaL nnu vesham poduraadhu

[bingleguy]

குஷ்புவுக்குக்கோயில் கட்டிய நாட்டில் இருந்து கொண்டு டேட்டிங்கைக்குறை சொல்வதும், கண்ணாடி வீட்டிலிருந்து கல் எறிவதும் =:-)

:lol:

[pavalamani pragasam]

kushboo is not a representative of our women! huh! how odious! kOdi janathogaoyil oru siRu sathaveetha kiRukkarkankaLai, kEnaiyankaLai vaiththu moththa thamizagaththai edaipOdalaamaa? is it fair?

[pavalamani pragasam]

Asia-la orgies nadanthathunnu naanEthaan sonnEn! appO enga intha america? nEththu penja mazaiyila muzaicha kaaLaan!

[bingleguy]

kushboo is not a representative of our women! huh! how odious! kOdi janathogaoyil oru siRu sathaveetha kiRukkarkankaLai, kEnaiyankaLai vaiththu moththa thamizagaththai edaipOdalaamaa? is it fair?

oru paanai sotrirkku oru soru padham nnu solradhu nyayamaagum innaatil :-) idhu en saathiyamillai .... :-)

[bingleguy]

Asia-la orgies nadanthathunnu naanEthaan sonnEn! appO enga intha america? nEththu penja mazaiyila muzaicha kaaLaan!

romba fast dhaan ivanga ;-) nadandhadhu angayaanaalum .... romba fast aa accustom aagardhu inga pola irukke :lol: jk

[app_engine]

>>inga vEsham pOduRaaLkaL-nnu eppadi adichi solReenga? ellOrumaa?<<

I don't think the intention here is to apply tar on our own people, which includes myself and my own relatives / family members:-)

All this exposure of indecency / immorality prevailing in our own homeland is only because you chose to blame / attack "foreign" sources for the situation (and also stereotyping the western people alone as promiscuous)

[pavalamani pragasam]

oru pazamozi - enga paatti solvathu: ambattan kuppaiyai kiNda kiNda masiruthaan varum! It is already very late for me to go sleep! :wave:

[app_engine]

Asia-la orgies nadanthathunnu naanEthaan sonnEn! appO enga intha america? nEththu penja mazaiyila muzaicha kaaLaan!

And you're blaming these 'kALAn's to influence the 'kOdAnu kOdi' yOgyarkaL?:-)

[bingleguy]

oru pazamozi - enga paatti solvathu: ambattan kuppaiyai kiNda kiNda masiruthaan varum! It is already very late for me to go sleep! :wave:

:lol: adhula poi naama moolaiyai theduromo :lol:
inga nadakkardhu is not patti mandram - to see who is winning :-) when sharing things ... lot of the times ... we have to face some branches too ...... adhu sambandhapattadhaaga irukkira varaikkum thavaru illai ;-)

unga pazhamozhi la vellai mudi, karuppu mudi, brown mudi nnu kooda branch out panna mudiyume ;-)

thisai maari pogardha neenga feel panraadhu sari nnu ennala othukka mudiyala :-)

Good Night :wave:

[app_engine]

Also, thanks for accepting the "great past" of the east (much before they were corrupt with western influences):-)

[bingleguy]

>>inga vEsham pOduRaaLkaL-nnu eppadi adichi solReenga? ellOrumaa?<<

I don't think the intention here is to apply tar on our own people, which includes myself and my own relatives / family members:-)

All this exposure of indecency / immorality prevailing in our own homeland is only because you chose to blame / attack "foreign" sources for the situation (and also stereotyping the western people alone as promiscuous)

:thumbsup: app .... absolutely right !!!!

[bingleguy]

Asia-la orgies nadanthathunnu naanEthaan sonnEn! appO enga intha america? nEththu penja mazaiyila muzaicha kaaLaan!

And you're blaming these 'kALAn's to influence the 'kOdAnu kOdi' yOgyarkaL?:-)

:lol: thirindhi irundhaangalO ennamo ;-) jk

[app_engine]

நாங்கள் சில குறைகளை சுட்டிக்காட்டியதற்காக, இப்படி தமிழகம் முழுவதையும் (அல்லது இந்த இழை முழுவதையும்) "சிகை அலங்கார நிலையமாக" வர்ணிப்பது -ஆனாலும் கொஞ்சம் ஓவர்:-)

[bingleguy]

நாங்கள் சில குறைகளை சுட்டிக்காட்டியதற்காக, இப்படி தமிழகம் முழுவதையும் (அல்லது இந்த இழை முழுவதையும்) "சிகை அலங்கார நிலையமாக" வர்ணிப்பது -ஆனாலும் கொஞ்சம் ஓவர்:-)
:lol:

:roll: ;-) PP maam kochukka poraanga :yessir: ;-)

[bingleguy]

kushboo is not a representative of our women! huh! how odious! kOdi janathogaoyil oru siRu sathaveetha kiRukkarkankaLai, kEnaiyankaLai vaiththu moththa thamizagaththai edaipOdalaamaa? is it fair?

representative aa illadhadhukke ;-) kovilaa :P

app.....
wat do you think about her statement on pre-marital sex .... ? avanga sonna statement enna ???? :roll:

[app_engine]

bingleguy, I deliberately chose NOT to read the alleged opinion of Kushbu about TN girls or virtues (for that matter anything she can have on our culture and morality):-) To me there are more authentic and better sources to understand TN's status quo / culture:-)

On the other hand, I agree that she too has karuththu sudhandhiram. If we don't like, trash it. (epporuL yAr yAr vAikkEtpinum...) Why all this riot (thus giving a lot more publicity for it)?

[bingleguy]

On the other hand, I agree that she too has karuththu sudhandhiram. If we don't like, trash it. (epporuL yAr yAr vAikkEtpinum...) Why all this riot (thus giving a lot more publicity for it)?

:lol: well .... familarity varume :P
inga ippadi pesuvaanga ....

anga shreyamma ... 4 inch skirt oda CM function kku varuvadhai mattum paarthu rasippaangalO ;-)

enna sir idhu .....

avanga glamour queen dhaan ... appo avanga appadi vandhadhukku kaaranam avangalaa ;-) illa appadi vandha dhaan paakiravangalukku pudikkum/edhirpaapaanga ngardhukkaaga appadi vandhadhaa ?????

[ajithfederer]

[tscii]http://indiablogs.searchindia.com/2008/03/10/incredible-india-unsafe-for-tourists/

Tourists to India - Beware.

You could lose your life, be molested, raped and attacked. And the Indian police will do little to help you or investigate the incident.

India’s police will most likely deny the incident and attempt to cover it up.

India’s tourism campaign is called Incredible India.

But the campaign might more aptly be called Incredible Murders, Incredible Rapes & Incredible Attacks.

A few months back, there was the case of two NRI girls being attacked in Mumbai near the J.W.Marriott Hotel.

Before that there was the case of foreigners being raped and murdered in New Delhi.

Now there is the tragic case of rape and murder of a young British girl Scarlett Keeling in Goa, which the Indian police initially tried to cover up stating that she drowned after taking drugs. It was only after the 15-year-old girl’s mother raised hell that a second autopsy was conducted and the truth about the teenager’s rape and murder came to light.

A Reuters‘ story quoted Goa’s Tourism Minister Francisco X. Pacheco acknowledging the murder of the young girl:

This is a clear case of murder and it has gone out of proportion because the police tried to cover it up.

India is already a miserable failure on the tourism front.

Already pathetic, India’s tourist inflow will further decline as news spreads of the heinous crimes against foreigners.

According to the figures from the World Tourism Organization, tiny Croatia got 8.47 million international tourists in 2005. In the same year, India got a piffling 3.91 million international tourists while its communist neighbor China got a whopping 46.81 million tourists. Go figure.

What a disgrace that the Indian Tourism Ministry spends millions on “Incredible India” ad campaigns (including ads on NYC buses as above) but fails to ensure basic safety or infrastucture for tourists visiting India.

How far this is true :?

[bingleguy]

[tscii:70e7e89b8e]
What a disgrace that the Indian Tourism Ministry spends millions on “Incredible India” ad campaigns (including ads on NYC buses as above) but fails to ensure basic safety or infrastucture for tourists visiting India

Well there lies the culprit .... Do we have any defined rules in terms of safety n regulations ..... I will not agree tat India does not care about the tourists ... it is somewat money minded but still we dont wanna get a bad name ......

Sometimes ... its evident that we lack care in ourselves ... its not a place with 100 ppl where u can define whos wat n where etc ... and say go here go there ... take care .... Tis a giant land with overflowing population ... we just stop by saying BE CAREFUL - which is the culprit ... we must jump further to ensure that its been taken care of ....

well - its the ppl who have to change ... not Tourism / Govt or any other .... We have a RICH HERITAGE - but unfortunately not able to make them tourism oriented .... as we dont give much importance to that as an individual !!!![/tscii:70e7e89b8e]

[pavalamani pragasam]

Regarding Kushboo controversy I had posted an article elsewhere, 'Much ado about nothing'- That was what it was! To take tinseldom seriously is a joke!!!

ajithfederer, have you not come across news of many incidents in which foreign tourists indulge in debauchery, exploiting our minors, hapless maidens etc?

Sometime ago in the advice column of an Indian blogging site a girl asked if she may consent to her boy friend's insistent desire to have sex. A majority of the many replies advised her against premarital sex. An indicator we are not in a hurry to jump on to the bandwagon! Heartening, isn't it?

[bingleguy]

Sometime ago in the advice column of an Indian blogging site a girl asked if she may consent to her boy friend's insistent desire to have sex. A majority of the many replies advised her against premarital sex. An indicator we are not in a hurry to jump on to the bandwagon! Heartening, isn't it?

Giving piece of advice is the most happiest thing somebody can easily do :-) When it comes to them .... if they are ready to put their feet and say :-) i decided it this wat -> well tats wat i would really call decision making -> straight from the heart ..... !!!

May be those who said to her - would have said in the agony that they werent in her bf's place :lol: - u could always hear in the crowd ppl saying that - "do u think i would have left her in a dilemma ? " :lol:
cmon maam ... I respect ppl who really have their heart in responded to her question ... but i see that the percentage would have been very less :-)

hardening ;-) not heartening though!!!!

[bingleguy]

'Much ado about nothing'- That was what it was! To take tinseldom seriously is a joke!!!


hmn .... tats a strong comment to make :-) !!! In TN ... :-) Tinseldom rules ;-) dont they ???? We have a lot of ppl from varied industry mergning into the field of Tamil Cinema and many from the industry who have gone to varied fields :-)
I see the Tinseldom in TN atleast .... has its root in the very core :-)

[pavalamani pragasam]

It needs to be reiterated that our place has not become totally a bedlam! Occassionally we hear heartening, boosting news like the principal of a college in our state capital who put his foot down on a matter of dress code in the case of a 'forward-thinking' lady from the tinselworld. Ah! Who cares a hoot if she huffed & puffed!!!

[Lambretta]

It needs to be reiterated that our place has not become totally a bedlam! Occassionally we hear heartening, boosting news like the principal of a college in our state capital who put his foot down on a matter of dress code in the case of a 'forward-thinking' lady from the tinselworld. Ah! Who cares a hoot if she huffed & puffed!!!
Pardon my curiosity ma'm but who was this 'lady'? :?
Not Kushboo again!

[pavalamani pragasam]

Don't you feel it is hot enough now? Why aggravate it? :D

[dsath]

[tscii:62b181c4c7]The intentions of my previous posts were not to slur our epics or the characters in them.
The epics were brought in just to point out that failed marriages and out of marriage relationships were prevalent in our society for long.
And the main point I wish to make is that, in those days we did not have women emancipation (comparable to the current levels) and no major influence from the Western society.
So it would be wrong to blame the problems on ‘The West’ or the ‘Feminist’ movement.
The feminist movement in India has come a long way in making sure that at least a portion of the women have access to fundamental rights like education. Much has been done for women empowerment, but there is still a long way to go.
We still have female infanticide and with technology it has developed into female foeticide.
Even for women who have access to same right as men, discrimination is a way of life. The Chennai buses are a good example.
Under such scenario, it would not only be faulty to blame the feminist movement or women emancipation (whatever you like to call it) but would seriously damage the cause. After coming so far, it would be a shame to fall back for all the wrong reasons.

We (Indian society) have our own share of skeletons in the cupboard. The skeletons are coming out, because the cupboard is being opened with a key (feminism).
It would be wrong to blame the key. It would be convenient to blame the West for our skeletons. But that is not going to clear the cupboard, is it?[/tscii:62b181c4c7]

[Punnaimaran]

Quite interesting to go through the posts about the cultures of the West and ours. I'm reminded of one incident which happened a year ago in Dubai.

It was a Mother's Day and a colleague from the US asked me if I had called my mother that morning. I told him that I didn't. He was surprised and started explaining me about motherly love and how I should take care of my mother. I started explaining him that I loved my mother, but he could not understand me.

Then I asked him how often he called his mother and he told me, "Every Mother's Day I call her and wish her. Last year I even took her for dinner".

Now I was shocked and told him that I called my mother almost everyday and I did not need a special day to SHOW my love to her. Also I told him that I was going to Bankok the next day and I might visit her if I get a return flight via Chennai.

Then he asked me in disbelief, " Do you go and meet your parents just like that, without any prior notice ? What if they have any other engagements ?"
I told him that I would go to my parents any time I wanted to and most of the time it would only be a pleasant surprise for them.

Then he told me that he had to inform his mother well in advance if he wanted to meet her, so that she could plan accordingly. He also told me that he hadn't seen or talked to his father in years.
And at last he said, " You are indeed very lucky to have such a nice family."

Good that in India, we still do not need any Mother's Day or Father's Day !!

[pavalamani pragasam]

How relevant or frightening are those skeletons now, after so many centuries? What is happening NOW in our shrunken global boundaries? How are we tackling our problems, challenges & ordeals? Who is against women getting educated? Who is talking about keeping women slaves? ( It was our Big Brother who shipped Negroes from Africa & ran a flourishing slavery trade to sweat in the hot zones cultivating cash crops like cotton!!!)
In true sense of Bharathi's puthumai peN we want our women to 'kaathalan oruvanai kai pidiththu avan kaariyam anaithilum thOL koduththu' enjoy life on earth. To take intelligent decisions, to share domestic administration, to make life enjoyable & happy for herself & her family. Not send children to creches, elders to old age home, join the rat race & become nervous wrecks & physical patients. Not to take divorce as a taunting tool or a cowardly, arrogant convenience indulging in pure egotism. Not to try 'masculine' sensual weakness out of pure adventure & mistaken sense of freedom( No one is here condoning men's 'weakness'! Men who have the courage of self-restraint are the real heroes, any day, anywhere!) Idea of marriage is a beautiful, complex concept with mutual duties, expectations & rights. Sex is one of the many things shared by the couple. Sex does not exist outside marriage, before marriage. But the world is rocking on titillations, cheap pleasures, sensual gratifications with no moral responsibility whatsoever. consumerism, materialism, epicureanism at the peak! It is difficult to just sit & watch your world crumbling down! It is inhuman, unnatural! Of what use is our sixth sense? Do we discriminate? Are we discerning? Are we behaving differently from beasts?

[app_engine]

AhAh, one excellent post from PP:-)

(BTW, my assamese friend often ridicules me after reading somewhere that "koththadimai" is still being practiced in TN and I had to be defensive. sondha oorilEyE slave is as bad as slave captives taken abroad)

Now, to summarize your above post in one word - "What are the values today for people and who sets it (or what should be the values / authority for values)". Do you have an answer PP mam (without resorting to attack on people outside your borders)?

[pavalamani pragasam]

:clap: @Punnaimaran! I am overwhelmed by your post! Almost choked to tears! How beautifully you have showed by relating an incident while I am here crying myself hoarse with no effect at all!!!

app_engine, your posers baffle me! I have had the notion of such things being inherent, subconscious, unspoken lessons/edicts, automatically absorbed, embedded in our lives! A scientific world, a dissecting approach, a black-white written programme- are all very distasteful to my temperament! I believe in intuitive understanding, empathetic communication & emotional bonding more than dry, practical treatises. Can't help it if you will brand it as escaping!!!

[app_engine]

>>I have had the notion of such things being inherent, subconscious, unspoken lessons/edicts, automatically absorbed, embedded in our lives<<

Per your own acknowledgement in the previous post, the above "embedding" does not seem to happen. (You're asking whether humans are behaving as beasts and wondering about the world crumbling down). So, what's your suggestion / methodology to make such "embedding" happen and the world won't crumble down?

[pavalamani pragasam]

By preserving the family concept! Living as married couple, bringing up children, father & mother setting example of womanliness & manliness, the right & wrong, tender love & strict discipline sweetly blended, training the children to respect elders & themselves , nurture in them civic sense, prioritising ability, faithfulness, honesty, unselfish affection, a correct sense of values which are to be devoutly followed. Consideration for others, sharing what must be shared, fairness in desires, demands, compulsory obedience to pursuance/furtherance of the good of the family. The responsibilities of man & woman- man as a chivalrous person, woman as a motherly person- are the pivot of meaningful living within the beautiful, civilised, restrained bounds of marriage. nallathoru kudumbam palkalaikazagam.

[Sudhaama]

.

By preserving the family concept! Living as married couple, bringing up children, father & mother setting example of womanliness & manliness, the right & wrong, tender love & strict discipline sweetly blended, training the children to respect elders & themselves , nurture in them civic sense, prioritising ability, faithfulness, honesty, unselfish affection, a correct sense of values which are to be devoutly followed. Consideration for others, sharing what must be shared, fairness in desires, demands, compulsory obedience to pursuance/furtherance of the good of the family. The responsibilities of man & woman- man as a chivalrous person, woman as a motherly person- are the pivot of meaningful living within the beautiful, civilised, restrained bounds of marriage. nallathoru kudumbam palkalaikazagam.

Yes Yes. Very Well-said.

I always enjoy reading the beautiful English.. apt-worded deeply MEANINGFUL Expressions... by Ms PP Madam.

Her unique way of handling the matter in the right emulative HUMANITARIAN APPROACH...

...as clearly laid down already by the Advanced Concept of the Global Mankind...

..further strengthened by practical demonstrations...

...more by actions than by words of Literature and Culture of the Traditional India...

..especially the Tamilian-culture spread over the World... is quite impressive.

Just one Unparallel Tamil-Proverb..." YAADHUM OORAE YAAVARUM KAELHIR"

..must alone suffice to fathom the depth of Humane spirit ...

...and the extent of its Widest spread in the Global perspective.!!!

I will be happy and thankful to Ms PP Madam... if she can make it possible...

..to write a Serial Article under the Title:

. Human-Values for the Modern World

..in our monthly Hub Magazine.

It can have the WIDEST REACH...

...as she may prefer her Unique Humanitarian Thoughts...

... and Valuable Social- concept to serve its due purpose EFFECTIVELY.!!!
.
.

[app_engine]

>>By preserving the family concept! <<

Fair enough, good idea. Since this process involves millions of people, that too of a wide variety, aren't some minimum principles needed as standards? My previous post was as to who is qualified to give these principles (again on what basis) and also has the power to make sure they are followed?

[dsath]

How relevant or frightening are those skeletons now, after so many centuries?

If they are not relevant now, then why are we discussing failed marriages and out-of-marriage relationships?


What is happening NOW in our shrunken global boundaries? How are we tackling our problems, challenges & ordeals?

By blaming the wrong sources ??????


Who is against women getting educated? Who is talking about keeping women slaves? ( It was our Big Brother who shipped Negroes from Africa & ran a flourishing slavery trade to sweat in the hot zones cultivating cash crops like cotton!!!)

We can pretend that Indian society did not do know abt 'slavery' and treated all human beings as equal or should I rephrase that to 'all men as equals'


In true sense of Bharathi's puthumai peN we want our women to 'kaathalan oruvanai kai pidiththu avan kaariyam anaithilum thOL koduththu' enjoy life on earth. To take intelligent decisions, to share domestic administration, to make life enjoyable & happy for herself & her family. Not send children to creches, elders to old age home, join the rat race & become nervous wrecks & physical patients.

Hmm domestic administration... equality within boundaries? Was that the concept of Bharathi's puthumai peN ?
Creches and Old age homes are failure of our society's flexibility as a whole and not because women are liberated. Better maternity leave options and flexibility at work place to accommodate family can be a start.
To quantize with an example, if a women starts working in a man only office, the management must make sure that there is a ladies restroom. And this accomodation should spread to other areas including maternity leave.


Not to take divorce as a taunting tool or a cowardly, arrogant convenience indulging in pure egotism. Not to try 'masculine' sensual weakness out of pure adventure & mistaken sense of freedom( No one is here condoning men's 'weakness'! Men who have the courage of self-restraint are the real heroes, any day, anywhere!)

Self-restraint men are heroes, but self-restraint women are way of life. Talk about equality !!!!!


Idea of marriage is a beautiful, complex concept with mutual duties, expectations & rights. Sex is one of the many things shared by the couple. Sex does not exist outside marriage, before marriage. But the world is rocking on titillations, cheap pleasures, sensual gratifications with no moral responsibility whatsoever. consumerism, materialism, epicureanism at the peak! It is difficult to just sit & watch your world crumbling down! It is inhuman, unnatural! Of what use is our sixth sense? Do we discriminate? Are we discerning? Are we behaving differently from beasts?
Good questions Are we looking in the right direction for these answers.

[pavalamani pragasam]

:ty: Sudhamma! I am overwhelmed by your compliments. Since I am reiterating my beliefs in all my writings I feel no necessity to start a separate serial for them. Having already earned the nickname of avvayaar in Hub I have no intention of sounding didactic with more harangues!!!

app_engine, as for your persistent question about who is responsible for laying down principles - it is a combined effort: like charity it begins at home, to be inculcated by parents, elders; by society, in its codes of behaviour, judiciously adapted as the times change; by government, by regulating marriage laws & associated concepts, by not giving legal status to 'living together', 'homosexual marriages', stringent rules against adultery, untenable reasons for divorce, more strict enforcement of female infanticide/foeticide laws, dowry control, domestic violence, censorship of unhealthy relationship portrayals, obscenities in MEDIA etc.

dsath, we are going nowhere quoting outdated stories; let us take good samples of conduct in old literature & ignore extinct customs. My personal opinion is woman's place is home, her forte is homemaking, why should she strain beyond her realm? As for your grievance about difference about what self-restraint is for men & women I can only say it is a simple truth that both are 2 different species endowed with different traits, entrusted with different responsibilities, expected different capabilities from, automatically different yardsticks for assessment of results!!! This 'equality' is a much maligned, misunderstood term. Both of us have understood Bharathi's character of puthumai peN differently? :wink: :huh:

[bingleguy]

:-)

[Sudhaama]

.

:
ty: Sudhamma! I am overwhelmed by your compliments. Since I am reiterating my beliefs in all my writings I feel no necessity to start a separate serial for them. Having already earned the nickname of avvayaar in Hub I have no intention of sounding didactic with more harangues!!!


I wish you reconsider the TRUE SENSE and high difference between your present form of delivery to the needy...

..and that I suggest you to have a NEW DOORWAY.!!

If anybody has nicknamed you as Avvaiyar... I don't find anything wrong in it.

In fact... in a good spirit.. I say... You DESERVE it. Yes.

Avvaiyar is Saraswathi Awathara.. the Greatest pride and privelege of Tamilians.

She was NOT AN OLD LADY... although appeared so... as she preferred to have...

...by the Grace of her Ishta-Deywam Vinayaka.

She was an undisputable leader in every and all respects.

So all these pride and attributes go to you too.!...

... Yes. It means so.!!!

..Nothing to feel ridiculed or mocked at or decried.!!!

I would suggest you.. to feel free and bold to go ahead on what you feel right for Yourselves...

..irrespective of others Comments.

Vaazhndhaalam Yaesum.. Thaazhndhaalum Yaesum..

...Vaiyaham Idhu thaanamma.!!!
.

[bingleguy]

In fact... in a good spirit.. I say... You DESERVE it. Yes.

Avvaiyar is Saraswathi Awathara.. the Greatest pride and privelege of Tamilians.



:clap: :stand_ovat:

PP maam, Though a couple of times i ve been kinda confronting on talks(yaarum madhichadhilla :P ;-) :lol:) .... i ve always relished and stood gaping with amazement at your knowledge and the way you deliver......

:clap: you are good guide and an inspiration :-) :clap: again !!!!

Thanks for this Sudhaamaa ji ..... :-)

[Punnaimaran]

By preserving the family concept! Living as married couple, bringing up children, father & mother setting example of womanliness & manliness, the right & wrong, tender love & strict discipline sweetly blended, training the children to respect elders & themselves , nurture in them civic sense, prioritising ability, faithfulness, honesty, unselfish affection, a correct sense of values which are to be devoutly followed. Consideration for others, sharing what must be shared, fairness in desires, demands, compulsory obedience to pursuance/furtherance of the good of the family. The responsibilities of man & woman- man as a chivalrous person, woman as a motherly person- are the pivot of meaningful living within the beautiful, civilised, restrained bounds of marriage. nallathoru kudumbam palkalaikazagam.

:clap: Excellent PP ma'am. As you have rightly said, the human values are to be felt, not framed as commandments.

[app_engine]

app_engine, as for your persistent question about who is responsible for laying down principles - it is a combined effort: like charity it begins at home, to be inculcated by parents, elders; by society, in its codes of behaviour, judiciously adapted as the times change; by government, by regulating marriage laws & associated concepts, by not giving legal status to 'living together', 'homosexual marriages', stringent rules against adultery, untenable reasons for divorce, more strict enforcement of female infanticide/foeticide laws, dowry control, domestic violence, censorship of unhealthy relationship portrayals, obscenities in MEDIA etc.



Looks like at last there's some focus on "actions" needed to reduce / remove the "shame" (ah-Ang, the topic of the thread):-)

Good going, PP mam! I strongly believe in not talking about past / west and throwing around blames / flames, though some amount of why-why analysis is needed to solve any problem.

However, after all the why's, there has to be a 'How'!

It would be useful if we keep going on this line of discussion, as to "How" to reduce / eliminate the 'Shame' rather than simply lamenting about it:-)

[Dilbert]

By preserving the family concept! nallathoru kudumbam palkalaikazagam.


Mam, My reply to your post is not pointing at you ! (not even by accident)

uuhh!! Family Values.. umm Good !! people in today's world who have access to Internet, can preach whatever they feel like Thanxs to Google blogs and Orkuts and forums.

The real issue is how any of these people really translates these things(values) in to there own families and in there society they live in. Shivaji Ganesan Song alone can't be held as testimony for family values.

We are Almost living on the edge, this is the most complex life ever from human standards. I would say adaptions and changes are the only tools on, which we can survive. There is no point in to holding on to " So called Family values" when others are not ready to accept the same. When we overselves doesn't belive in them at times.

Reality Check :

1) Office Party is more important over -> Wedding Anniversary
2) Offical Tour is more important over -> Kids Birthday / family outing.
3) TV Serials / sports are more important over -> Getting to Gym for staying healthy & fit in order to take care of there families (for which they guard the so called family values)
List will go on.

In every single event we tend to replace old values with new ones.

It was good post. If you can add " Loving your Country as part of family bonding" would be nice. :D

[pavalamani pragasam]

Wow! So many responses in my loooong absence from Hub! Been out all day! A busy day!

Thanx to all my friends! It has been a happy experience analysing important issues concerning our values!

app_engine, my 'how' is untiring propaganda of my convictions about values for meaningful, satisfying, dignified life whenever, wherever I can! :lol: My mission is to create an awareness!

Dilbert, ideally, when each family is functioning in good condition it is sure to be reflected in the life of the whole nation! A country is a whole made up of units of families. :D

[Lambretta]

We can pretend that Indian society did not do know abt 'slavery' and treated all human beings as equal or should I rephrase that to 'all men as equals'
And what is the 'slavery' that existed in Indian society?? :? :huh:
The inequality we had here may be loosely defined as 'slavery' but literally its nowhere close to the slavery in the west that PP ma'm mentions. :)


Creches and Old age homes are failure of our society's flexibility as a whole and not because women are liberated. Better maternity leave options and flexibility at work place to accommodate family can be a start.
Agreed. But then, easier said than done. How many workplaces even in India (aside from the 'traditional' govt. orgs., considering the present-day corporate environment), have the thought of the idea of 'flexibility at work to accomodate family' for women employees? What degree of interest would they have in the women's family? :)
One real obvious eg. I can point out in today's scenario is the hiring of female employees for unearthly work shifts in call-centres, which timing is far more detremental (atleast health-wise!) for women, considering their bodily challenges viz. 'cycles' etc.! Why cant they waive them from night-shifts? How come the question of 'flexibility at work' doesnt rise here? :huh:


To quantize with an example, if a women starts working in a man only office, the management must make sure that there is a ladies restroom. And this accomodation should spread to other areas including maternity leave.
A maternity leave is given purely on humanitarian grounds because it more or less inevitable. Consideration on the part of any employer in general seldom stretches to anything beyond this even for women. The bottom line is they are expected to work as hard as the men in more or less the same conditions/situations. :)


Self-restraint men are heroes, but self-restraint women are way of life. Talk about equality !!!!!
So wat is it you intend to say? Are you dissatisfied with the way women w/ self-restraint are (not) recognised as opposed to men with the same quality? :? :roll:
Allright then, self-restraint women are henceforth heroines!! I personally vouch for them! :yes: 3 CHEERS for them!! Hip-hip-hurray!! :clap: :thumbsup:
Does that feel better now, or somethin more needed? :D

[pavalamani pragasam]

I am proud of you Lambretta! :ty:

[Dilbert]

:omg: I was a well Frog before I clicked on this Thread.

My god 6500 posts , 4500 posts.. looks like you guys have kept this as part of your full time job ;) :notworthy: :shaking:

[app_engine]

app_engine, my 'how' is untiring propaganda of my convictions about values for meaningful, satisfying, dignified life whenever, wherever I can! :lol: My mission is to create an awareness!


Definitely appreciable! Creating an awareness is always the first step.

However, there is a lot more to be addressed. For e.g., even in your prior post, you made family, society & Govt. responsible for actions to eradicate shameful events (as discussed in this thread and not necessarily all the evils prevailing).

While this "awareness" part will help "some" willing families to take action and avoid shameful actions (provided they continue to get reminders and also have some amount of awareness as to what to do/avoid in specific situations), I don't think this will do anything to the so-called "society" and "govt" (first of all how do you even define "society" in this context? )

So, other than this "awareness propaganda" (preaching?), what else can be done? Any ideas, from hubbers?
.

[pavalamani pragasam]

Next step, definitely is practice before you preach which I do! :D

[bingleguy]

But then, easier said than done. How many workplaces even in India (aside from the 'traditional' govt. orgs., considering the present-day corporate environment), have the thought of the idea of 'flexibility at work to accomodate family' for women employees? What degree of interest would they have in the women's family?

:thumbsup: Point .... :roll:

[bingleguy]

Next step, definitely is practice before you preach which I do! :D
Huh ... :-) well ....
Fools learn from their mistakes.....
Intelligent ppl learn from others mistakes ;-)

[pavalamani pragasam]

:roll: May I know who are the fools & intelligent people you are referring to?

[bingleguy]

:roll: May I know who are the fools & intelligent people you are referring to?
:lol: en PP maam ennai maati vudureenga :lol:
oru quote sonnen avvalavu dhaan ;-)

practice n preach avasiyam illai ;-)
knw well n preach dhaan budhisaalithanam :P ;-) :lol:

sometimes ... i feel that we have to undergo things in the same fashion in order to really feel it ...

[pavalamani pragasam]

:roll: :sigh2:

[bingleguy]

:roll: :sigh2:

seri seri ;-) vidungo ;-)

[dsath]

Agreed. But then, easier said than done. How many workplaces even in India (aside from the 'traditional' govt. orgs., considering the present-day corporate environment), have the thought of the idea of 'flexibility at work to accomodate family' for women employees? What degree of interest would they have in the women's family? :)

Absolutely. This is the area we should be focusing on - to maintain a work-life balance which is essential for holding on to the Indian family values (whichever version you choose to follow).
Wrongly accusing women who choose to stray from the traditional domain of domestic administration is not going to help address issues which are the need of the moment.


A maternity leave is given purely on humanitarian grounds because it more or less inevitable. Consideration on the part of any employer in general seldom stretches to anything beyond this even for women. The bottom line is they are expected to work as hard as the men in more or less the same conditions/situations. :)

This is debatable, and these are the debates that we should be having now. The freedom of choice to work/not work and things like the above.
Not debating 'if liberated women have diluted Indian family values or not'. The debate will be unproductive as it will only give more ammunition for chauvinists.


So wat is it you intend to say? Are you dissatisfied with the way women w/ self-restraint are (not) recognised as opposed to men with the same quality? :? :roll:

No, equality does not mean flow from one direction only (from men to women), it can go in the other direction as well and fidelity and self restraint is one such.


Allright then, self-restraint women are henceforth heroines!! I personally vouch for them! :yes: 3 CHEERS for them!! Hip-hip-hurray!! :clap: :thumbsup:
Does that feel better now, or somethin more needed? :D
Could women ask for more? Aren't we trained to accept empty words with a simle. :)

I think I have said enough. As the cliche goes - to each their own.
:yessir:

[pavalamani pragasam]

Is career the only or best tool to tackle chauvinism? :huh:

[dsath]

Is career the only or best tool to tackle chauvinism? :huh:
Yes it is, as it grants the all important financial independence.

[pavalamani pragasam]

What a myth that homemakers do not have financial independence? A vast majority of women hold the purse-strings!!! :yes:

[Lambretta]

Is career the only or best tool to tackle chauvinism? :huh:
Yes it is, as it grants the all important financial independence.
If your referring to career as in JOB- this is a much cliched statement that is far from true! A job can NEVER grant financial independence to ANYONE (I dont mean just women btw!), quite the opposite in fact. But let's not digress into tat here! :)

[Lambretta]

What a myth that homemakers do not have financial independence? A vast majority of women hold the purse-strings!!! :yes:
:exactly: I'm sure Shekhar would readily agree to this (never mind the emoticons, I'm only half-joking here!! :wink: :lol: :rotfl: :lol2:)

[pavalamani pragasam]

Yes, I too was remembering his humorous post on that! :D

[app_engine]

http://dailythanthi.com/article.asp?NewsID=407082&disdate=4/17/2008

என்ன அநியாயம்:-( நல்ல வேளை, குழந்தை தற்போதைக்குத்தப்பியது.

[bingleguy]

app .... am not able to read the tamil fonts on that page ... could u share the news with us ... here

[pavalamani pragasam]

I too can't read it! :(

[bingleguy]

Is career the only or best tool to tackle chauvinism? :huh:

:roll: I fear not PP maam .... i ve heard more of Ego clashes amongst working married couples than otherwise ....

Career is important for everybody ... unless n until it doesnt play a part in the personal life ..... we have to adjust sometimes to get into a better path .. but that should just be an adjustment and not a mending done ....

gals n guys being clear about career before marriage is welcome these days .... instead of repenting later .... :-) personal anubavam :-) !!!!

[Lambretta]

app.... am not able to read the tamil fonts on that page ... could u share the news with us ... here
Hmm...that doesnt look like tamil font at all! :?
Of course I cant read it even if it were tamil font! :roll: :lol2: :oops:

[bingleguy]

What a myth that homemakers do not have financial independence? A vast majority of women hold the purse-strings!!! :yes:

:lol: true ;-)

and they ve done it pretty well ;-)

[Lambretta]

gals n guys being clear about career before marriage is welcome these days .... instead of repenting later .... :-) personal anubavam :-) !!!!
:shock: :?
Ungalku eppo lErnthu ithula anubhavam iruku?? :huh: :roll:

[bingleguy]

app.... am not able to read the tamil fonts on that page ... could u share the news with us ... here
Hmm...that doesnt look like tamil font at all! :?
Of course I cant read it even if it were tamil font! :roll: :lol2: :oops:

//:lol: lamby gaaru ..... romba dhaan ..... some issue with conversion .. am not able to open that in any browsers ... IE, Mozilla and Safari !!!

[app_engine]

I'm hardpressed for time to re-type the whole news article in unicode. Please try to install the font from dailythanthi.com.

Briefly, it's a report of a speech-impaired mother saving her 9th std daughter by approaching the police. (The father was planning to get her married to his 54 yr old br-in-law, who is already married to his sister aka child's aunt)

[pavalamani pragasam]

Typical sensational news dished up by dailies like thanthi creating an impression of the whole society practising such hideous customs as a normal way of life! Personally many such aberrations are best quietly dealt by propmt legal action. kaathum kaathum vaiththa maathiri kayavarkaLai thaNdippathai vittu, oru siRu moolaiyil adakki vaasikkappada vENdiya seythiyai( intha seyhti theriyaamal yaarukkum sORu thaNNi iRangaathaa enna?) mun pakkaththil kottai ezuththil pOduvathu oru viyaabaara thanthiram!!!

[bingleguy]

Typical sensational news dished up by dailies like thanthi creating an impression of the whole society practising such hideous customs as a normal way of life! Personally many such aberrations are best quietly dealt by propmt legal action. kaathum kaathum vaiththa maathiri kayavarkaLai thaNdippathai vittu, oru siRu moolaiyil adakki vaasikkappada vENdiya seythiyai( intha seyhti theriyaamal yaarukkum sORu thaNNi iRangaathaa enna?) mun pakkaththil kottai ezuththil pOduvathu oru viyaabaara thanthiram!!!

:lol: thandiramA idhu ;-) neram dhaan ...
enna panradhu ... padikkiravanga adhai dhaane edhir paakiraanga :-) appo avangalai mattum kuththam solli enna use ... ethanai per media vai neenga kekkura maadiri kelvi kettirukkaanga ...

ethanayo vishayangaL .... varthai jaalathaala vishayathai maathi solradhu, chinna vishayathai perusa katradhu, oru sadhaa kadhai kku varaiyara picturela kooda kamathai velippaduthuvadhu .... :banghead: idellam pottadhaala paakiromaa :-) illa paakardhaala poduraangala :lol:

[sarna_blr]

Typical sensational news dished up by dailies like thanthi creating an impression of the whole society practising such hideous customs as a normal way of life! Personally many such aberrations are best quietly dealt by propmt legal action. kaathum kaathum vaiththa maathiri kayavarkaLai thaNdippathai vittu, oru siRu moolaiyil adakki vaasikkappada vENdiya seythiyai( intha seyhti theriyaamal yaarukkum sORu thaNNi iRangaathaa enna?) mun pakkaththil kottai ezuththil pOduvathu oru viyaabaara thanthiram!!!


PP amma.... neenga Dharmapuri... krishnagiri pakkaththula irukkura gramappurangalukku pOyirukkeengala... :?
naan krishnagiri'la GPTC'la padikkumbOdhu.... oru survey'kaaga 10 pasanga (NCC).... 15..16 vayasu kooda irukkaadhu ponnungalukku...kaila kolandhayOda iruppaanga.... purushanungalOda vayasu 40'ku mEla irukkum.... :banghead:
AC room'la ukkaandhuttu WINDOWS( through internet)... ulagaththa paakkureenga neenga... neenga mattum illa inga neraya pEru appadidhaan... :( .... konjam veleela vandhu ulagaththa parunga...

[sarna_blr]

Typical sensational news dished up by dailies like thanthi creating an impression of the whole society practising such hideous customs as a normal way of life! Personally many such aberrations are best quietly dealt by propmt legal action. kaathum kaathum vaiththa maathiri kayavarkaLai thaNdippathai vittu, oru siRu moolaiyil adakki vaasikkappada vENdiya seythiyai( intha seyhti theriyaamal yaarukkum sORu thaNNi iRangaathaa enna?) mun pakkaththil kottai ezuththil pOduvathu oru viyaabaara thanthiram!!!

:lol: thandiramA idhu ;-) neram dhaan ...
enna panradhu ... padikkiravanga adhai dhaane edhir paakiraanga :-) appo avangalai mattum kuththam solli enna use ... ethanai per media vai neenga kekkura maadiri kelvi kettirukkaanga ...

ethanayo vishayangaL .... varthai jaalathaala vishayathai maathi solradhu, chinna vishayathai perusa katradhu, oru sadhaa kadhai kku varaiyara picturela kooda kamathai velippaduthuvadhu .... :banghead: idellam pottadhaala paakiromaa :-) illa paakardhaala poduraangala :lol:

BG media'ngradhu orukaalaththula makkalukku unmayaana seidhigala kondu sEkkura oodagamaa irundhadhu... but ippO appadi illa...

oru kaalaththula paper'la var'ra news unmainu nambuna jananga irukkaanga... adhe jananga innikku time pass'ku paper padikkuraanga.... :lol: ... naan yaara solrEnu ungalukku puriyudhaa :?

[pavalamani pragasam]

sarna_blr, you are correct about my colossal ignorance!
:oops: I have already confessed in some other thread about my unawareness of rural life & customs because of my city background throughout my life. That does not mean my indifference to villagers or their way of life. I am eager to know about them, to help them, to uplift them in what ways I can. I am clueless about how to help them. I read about their miseries, esp, the poor returns they get for their agricultural produce. It is mentioned often in articles how the brokers are the ones who always make a huge profit whatever be the price escalation. The government must think of direct buying ensuring a prosperous life for the farmers. But sitting in the armchair or typing in the computer how can I hope to bring about the changes I desire? It is a sad helplessness! Literacy & clean governance alone can bring about welcome changes. Even today it pained me to read in Ananda Vikadan about girls of a village swimming across Tamarabarani to reach their school. Where are all the taxes we pay go to? A decent road in the villages is as important as the flyovers in metros. The people in villages are also as much human as city dwellers. Yes, there are many known & unknown ugly evils in our country for us to be ashamed of. Let us elect clean, sincere politicians to rule us! DO THEY EXIST?

[sarna_blr]

atleast neengalaavudhu unmaya oththukkitteenga.... inga irukkura neraya pEru kandadhE kaatchchi (paper or internet news)...kondadhE kOlam'nu irukkaanga... :oops: ....

BTW ungalOda nalla ennangalukku enadhu siramthaazhndha :bow: .....

[app_engine]

>>Typical sensational news <<

Agreed. However, people are also happy to brand the whole 'west' as horrible societies based on similar news items in, say, Detroit Free Press (or not even that - some 'english novels':-) )

In reality, a lot of tragedies and horrors don't get reported in the Indian media. They are amukkified because the culprits are powerful (like a relative of a politician of ruling party etc.) The reality is much worse:-(

தனக்கு ஓட்டு கிடைக்கணும்ங்கிறதுக்காக லட்சக்கணக்கானோருக்குக்குடிதண்ணி கிடைக்காமல் செய்யும் தலைவர்கள் உள்ள நம் நாட்டைப்பற்றிப்பெருமைப்பட தற்போது அதிகம் இல்லை:-(

[pavalamani pragasam]

:ty: So far I have been believing charity begins at home. It is still true. How we live is real religion is my policy. A poem I learnt as a kid says 'love of fellowmen is love of God' That got etched in my mind. But it is beyond my temperament & circumstances to become an 'anniyan' or 'Indian' of the big screen & redress society's evils even if I ardently desire to do so!!! What can we do as individuals to make life better for our suffering, ignorant, poor brethren?

[pavalamani pragasam]

app_engine, that is a 'wicked' dig at me!!! :lol:

[pavalamani pragasam]

Do not reproach my patriotic impulses! peRRa thaayum piRantha ponnaadum naRRava vaaninum nani siRanthanavE! than muthugu thanakku theriyaamal illai! But that does not hide the ugly facts of other parts of the world from our view! Since we already so many problems, so many evils to be redressed we need not invite more trouble by aping unhealthy trends from the west! Won't you agree?

[app_engine]

app_engine, that is a 'wicked' dig at me!!! :lol:

No, that was not the intention, just a passing remark:-) Media sensationalise events (east or west, it's the same case. In fact both feed on each other in such techniques / technologies). As much as we cannot brand a whole society on such events, we cannot close our eyes to the existing evils either.

For solving such social problems, very good leadership is needed. Who are our leaders today that can boast of high moral principles?

[pavalamani pragasam]

Million dollar question!

[sarna_blr]

தனக்கு ஓட்டு கிடைக்கணும்ங்கிறதுக்காக லட்சக்கணக்கானோருக்குக்குடிதண்ணி கிடைக்காமல் செய்யும் தலைவர்கள் உள்ள நம் நாட்டைப்பற்றிப்பெருமைப்பட தற்போது அதிகம் இல்லை

idhu INDIA... idhu democratic country.... inga yaaru enna vEnumnaalum pannalaam... :oops:

[app_engine]

>>we need not invite more trouble by aping unhealthy trends from the west! Won't you agree?<<

Ofcourse, I agree. At the same time, we don't have to resist "healthy" trends from elsewhere also:-) Unfortunately, it's very difficult for an average person (especially for the inexperienced ones) to distinguish what's healthy and what's not!

[pavalamani pragasam]

oru iravil theerum kavalai illai! Let me take some rest now hoping to face a brighter tomorrow!

[sarna_blr]

>>we need not invite more trouble by aping unhealthy trends from the west! Won't you agree?<<

Ofcourse, I agree. At the same time, we don't have to resist "healthy" trends from elsewhere also:-) Unfortunately, it's very difficult for an average person (especially for the inexperienced ones) to distinguish what's healthy and what's not!

:roll:

[dsath]

[tscii:b27b5ba361]
What a myth that homemakers do not have financial independence? A vast majority of women hold the purse-strings!!! :yes:

I think it is naive to look at financial independence from a family purse point of view.
Not long ago (2 generations back) child brides, widows having to be dependant on the extended family and women who were abused had no voice in the society. They had to accept what comes their way.
Now the situation is changed. It is not all roses, but a woman can live independently on her own when circumstances so demand (if in an abusive marriage, a spinster, a widow or for any other reason).
Earlier such women were outcasts, but now they have a reasonable status in society. Still we have some of the good old terms like ‘valavatti’ in our society, but certainly the situation is much better than what it was before.
One of main tools that brought about this change is ‘career’ and thru it financial independence.

Recently, I came across this video in good old youtube (it’s the first of a 3 part series and)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=in_4QhWQaq4&feature=related

An interview of Renkua Choudhary by Karan Thapar. I don’t want to go into the pros and cons of the law (it would shift the focus of discussion).
The first noticeable part of the video is the comment section. If you don’t want to hear Karan and Renuka arguing over what ‘listening’ actually is, mute the listening and read the comments (all three parts) and then you will know why education and hence a means of earning independently is very important for women. A sample comment below. They are many more such 'gems'


I will not say anything on this topic. But i want to say one thing, that is INDIA is getting worse day by day.

BTW i support the dowry system. If you dont like it and want to say WOMEN and MEN are equal, why marry in the first place?

And they are not talking about muslims, christians in india. What about them? Does this LAW apply women from ISLAM?


The second noticeable part is that it took India more than half a century to actually implement a law against domestic violence (I mean a law that actually means something) and to recognize emotional abuse as a form of domestic violence. And it took a woman to do that.
This is excatly why we need women to come out of the traditional domain of domestic administration.
[/tscii:b27b5ba361]

[pavalamani pragasam]

:huh:

[Lambretta]

[tscii]
One of main tools that brought about this change is ‘career’ and thru it financial independence.
I reiterate my point that a career in the form of a job certainly does NOT bring financial independence or security- to ANYONE. Period. But anyways, why digress into that now. :)


This is excatly why we need women to come out of the traditional domain of domestic administration.
Sorry dsath but once again u leave a certain ambiguity in one of ur statements, as in this one. What is ur point here- that women who come out of dometic admin. do not face any kind of abuse/discrimination/harassment/exploitation outside the domestic world?? :?
As for domestic violence, it could take place even if the woman concerned is a career woman! So the exact solution is to reinforce the relevant laws (which hav mostly remained namesake so far- of course in certain cases now being (mis)used to the other extreme!) in this regard!

[pavalamani pragasam]

Yes, the murdered woman in Bangalore was an executive!!! :shock:

[Roshan]

dsath :clap:

I went through your previous posts as well. Unfortunately there are no proper responses to the points you have raised.

Anyway, my experience is that, unless they go, see and experience the sufferings of the marginalised and oppressed - people would tend to argue based on their traditional beliefs (whether they are right or wrong is different) and what they see within their own little world. So no point wasting time here.

In our part of the world 'gender sensitisation' is needed more for women than men :)

[pavalamani pragasam]

:huh:

[Devar Magan]

PP madam,

ladies work panna koodathunu ethukku rajini pola pesureenga :huh:

[pavalamani pragasam]

Rajini pesuRathu yaarO ezuthikuduththa vasanam! naan solRathu sontha karuththu!

[Devar Magan]

Rajini pesuRathu yaarO ezuthikuduththa vasanam! naan solRathu sontha karuththu!


hmm , appo neenga internet-la vanthu ippadi post panrathum thevai illaaatha velainu naan ninaikiren.. 8-)

[pavalamani pragasam]

It is none of your business-nnu niraiya per ungakitta solRa maathiriyirukkE! :wink:

[Devar Magan]

It is none of your business-nnu niraiya per ungakitta solRa maathiriyirukkE! :wink: athellam mathavanga dialogue...


naan sonnathu ennoda karuthu.. 8-)

[pavalamani pragasam]

ennamO, mookku paththiram, ippadi udaichikka koodaathu, ambuttuthEn!

[Devar Magan]

ennamO, mookku paththiram, ippadi udaichikka koodaathu, ambuttuthEn! enge mookellaam nallaa thaan irukku.. 8-)

i am reading ur posts for a long time..

i think ur having an idea that we youngsters mostly dont use our brain.. madam ur wrong.. i feel happy that ur always ready to guide us.. ur presence in the internet makes me think high of u.. but, ur un-necessary(IMHO) advices are of no use..

dont try to limit anyone..

[pavalamani pragasam]

Advices??? Well, it often is like pouring water on duck's back! do I not know that we can only lead the animal to the pond but can't make it drink? What makes you feel guilty suspecting I am speaking against you? Why do you generalise I am against the youth? That is very unfair considering how proud I am of many a youngster in this very site!
Was there a compliment too? :ty:

[Lambretta]

dsath :clap:

I went through your previous posts as well. Unfortunately there are no proper responses to the points you have raised.

Anyway, my experience is that, unless they go, see and experience the sufferings of the marginalised and oppressed - people would tend to argue based on their traditional beliefs (whether they are right or wrong is different) and what they see within their own little world. So no point wasting time here.

In our part of the world 'gender sensitisation' is needed more for women than men :)
:)
Roshan, as you read her posts so well, you'd notice that dsath tends to ultimately suggest that a 'career' is the inevitable, ultimate utopian emancipating solution for women w/out which a woman is inevitably doomed, in response to almost every problem she talks about women facing!
OK good (for her atleast) that she considers a career useful, and agreed it has, to some extent, put women in a better light than they were 100 yrs ago, ana peNgal-ku vAzhkai'la yentha prachnai vanthAlum vimochanam ('hope I got the word right!) career-nu etho universal quick-fix ad mAthiri sonna ebbidi :? :)
Therefore I'd asked her if most of the age-old problems (eg. dowry) in case of women do not persist even today despite the advancement of women in careers? So is career such a great alternative?
Or perhaps u'd like to explain this point urself since ur apparently the only one here who's erudite at understanding dsath's posts? :)

[Lambretta]

[tscii:6eaec30233]
Recently, I came across this video in good old youtube (it’s the first of a 3 part series and)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=in_4QhWQaq4&feature=related

An interview of Renkua Choudhary by Karan Thapar. I don’t want to go into the pros and cons of the law (it would shift the focus of discussion).
A sample comment below. They are many more such 'gems'


I will not say anything on this topic. But i want to say one thing, that is INDIA is getting worse day by day.

BTW i support the dowry system. If you dont like it and want to say WOMEN and MEN are equal, why marry in the first place?

And they are not talking about muslims, christians in india. What about them? Does this LAW apply women from ISLAM?


This comment is one that hardly needs to be taken seriously! Its just that viewer's personal opinion, right or wrong. There are, as you notice, several other cmments by various viewrs in youtube commenting sprees who post their own perceptive remarks, some of them even making no sense at all, some sounding personally abusive etc....! :)
Also the ID of the poster in question seems female rather than male.[/tscii:6eaec30233]

[dsath]

This comment is one that hardly needs to be taken seriously! Its just that viewer's personal opinion, right or wrong. There are, as you notice, several other cmments by various viewrs in youtube commenting sprees who post their own perceptive remarks, some of them even making no sense at all, some sounding personally abusive etc....! :)
Also the ID of the poster in question seems female rather than male.
Yes most comments in youtube are akin to what you say. But this and many other comments for this video gives us a peek into an educated Indian mind. Does it really matter if it is a man or a woman.

[dsath]

Roshan, as you read her posts so well, you'd notice that dsath tends to ultimately suggest that a 'career' is the inevitable, ultimate utopian emancipating solution for women w/out which a woman is inevitably doomed, in response to almost every problem she talks about women facing!

I wish there was an utopian solution for all the problems that women face or for that matter for all other issues that our society face.
Unfortunately that is not the case. If I had given the impression that once a woman steps out of her house, all her problems are automatically resolved then I am sorry, I didn't mean to.

As I said earlier in my posts, discrimination for 'apparently equal' women is a way of life, like the Chennai buses. It would be hard to find women (travelling on the buses regularly) who hadn't faced a single discriminatory act. Indian constitution has taken more than 50 years for recognizing discrimination within the confines of a family. Who knows how long it will take for the constitution to recognize discrimination outside the boundaries of family. :sigh2:

Earlier there was no place to voice our concerns and issues. But now we can by means of a career because we are ,
journalists/writers (people can read a woman's thoughts, not a man's version of a woman's thoughts),
doctors/nurses(with whom problems otherwise considered a taboo to be discussed with a male doctor can be discussed and solutions obtained), lawyers/judges (who can make laws to protect the womankind ),
police and on and on........



OK good (for her atleast) that she considers a career useful, and agreed it has, to some extent, put women in a better light than they were 100 yrs ago, ana peNgal-ku vAzhkai'la yentha prachnai vanthAlum vimochanam ('hope I got the word right!) career-nu etho universal quick-fix ad mAthiri sonna ebbidi :? :)
Therefore I'd asked her if most of the age-old problems (eg. dowry) in case of women do not persist even today despite the advancement of women in careers? So is career such a great alternative?
Or perhaps u'd like to explain this point urself since ur apparently the only one here who's erudite at understanding dsath's posts? :)

Again there is no quick fix for any problems in the society.
Dowry has just taken a different avataram....but no one can deny the fact that dowry deaths are not as rampant as they once were. We cannot expect a changeover of societal attitudes overnight. Rome wasn't built in a day.
A means of earning legitimately is not vimochanam, but it gives the opportunity for a woman to fight out the prachnai.

Career is not an alternative, neither is it a do all or end all. It is a means to fight problems that a woman faces in a society. Call it survival tactics.

<digression>
I believe in choice - a right to select. I am not against women opting to stay at home, I am all for recognizing that women and men have different needs and the society should understand and respect a woman's choice (career or no career). That in my opinion would be the next stage of 'equality'.
</digression>

[pavalamani pragasam]

In spite of age-old discrimination- I feel it is genetic, in the male's build-up, male chauvnism- women have been establishing their importance with superiority, authority, dignity & emphasis from within their fortress! Isles of 'little worlds' do make the society at large, don't they? :huh:

[sarna_blr]

In spite of age-old discrimination- I feel it is genetic, in the male's build-up, male chauvnism- women have been establishing their importance with superiority, authority, dignity & emphasis from within their fortress! Isles of 'little worlds' do make the society at large, don't they? :huh:

neenga enna solla var'reenga.... :roll:

[pavalamani pragasam]

enna puriyala? :wink:

[Devar Magan]

In spite of age-old discrimination- I feel it is genetic, in the male's build-up, male chauvnism- women have been establishing their importance with superiority, authority, dignity & emphasis from within their fortress! Isles of 'little worlds' do make the society at large, don't they? :huh: :rotfl:

so, they shudnt venture out of their fortress-es ???

little worlds.. :evil: u want all the women in this world to be limited to their family alone.. what a stupid concept !!!

what are the other female hubbers doing here???

just because of ur age, dont think that you can get away whatever u write.. athuvum puriyaatha maathiri sugar-coat panni eluthurathu.. :lol:

ur post is an utter shame to all females and feminism.. i am sure many are angered here.. just that they are feeling a bit shy/awkward to express themselves..

better go back to ur little world and shut the door..

[joe]

:roll: :roll:

[pavalamani pragasam]

Devar Magan, unga brilliance-la kaNNu koosuthu!!! :lol: Your choice epithets are just amusing! :rotfl: Thanx, & good luck to you, my dear boy! :D

[Punnaimaran]

just because of ur age, dont think that you can get away whatever u write.. athuvum puriyaatha maathiri sugar-coat panni eluthurathu.. :lol:

Puriyavillai endrAl viLakkam kEtkalAmE ??


ur post is an utter shame to all females and feminism.. i am sure many are angered here.. just that they are feeling a bit shy/awkward to express themselves..

peNgaLin manadhai mattum nandrAga purindhu vaithirukkireergaLE !!!

[pavalamani pragasam]

8-)

[pavalamani pragasam]

what a pity I can't spot any shyness or awkwardness in the expressions of 'angry' 'many'!!! :lol:

[Devar Magan]

just because of ur age, dont think that you can get away whatever u write.. athuvum puriyaatha maathiri sugar-coat panni eluthurathu.. :lol:

Puriyavillai endrAl viLakkam kEtkalAmE ??

enakku nichayamaa purinthathu.. atha naal thaan kovam varugirathu :twisted:

[Punnaimaran]

just because of ur age, dont think that you can get away whatever u write.. athuvum puriyaatha maathiri sugar-coat panni eluthurathu.. :lol:

Puriyavillai endrAl viLakkam kEtkalAmE ??

enakku nichayamaa purinthathu.. atha naal thaan kovam varugirathu :twisted:

Enna thEvarE, idhukkellAm kObappadalAmA ??

[Lambretta]

just because of ur age, dont think that you can get away whatever u write.. athuvum puriyaatha maathiri sugar-coat panni eluthurathu.. :lol:

Puriyavillai endrAl viLakkam kEtkalAmE ??

enakku nichayamaa purinthathu.. atha naal thaan kovam varugirathu :twisted:

Enna thEvarE, idhukkellAm kObappadalAmA ??
:exactly: DM, ithula yennanga ivolo feel agarenga?? Avanga manasula irukara vArthai-a avangapAtuku sonna athuku unga engine ethuku ibbbidi overheat Aguthu?? :lol2: :D
IthE yAro oru feminist/women's libber vanthu peN than kudumba'tenthu pirinji irunthu thanikuduthvAzhanum-nu abbidi ethAvathu sonna athukum matrum ellorumE oththukittu contradict onnum paNNa kudaathu! :roll:

Oru VEla unga office'la peNgal yArume vaela-ku varAta ungalku scene romba dull-a theriyum-nu varthathoda ibbidi kobapadrenglo? :wink: J/K! :P :D

[pavalamani pragasam]

:rotfl:

[Devar Magan]

Oru VEla unga office'la peNgal yArume vaela-ku varAta ungalku scene romba dull-a theriyum-nu varthathoda ibbidi kobapadrenglo? :wink: J/K! :P :D athuvum right thaan :lol:

but, nurture panren, guide panren, values solli kodukurenu sollittu penaathunaa, naan chumma irukka maatten..


our PP madam is discouraging the current generation with her posts.. if she cant encourage us, no problem.. if she openly posts her opinion, i have the right to post mine too.. 8-)

[Devar Magan]

what a pity I can't spot any shyness or awkwardness in the expressions of 'angry' 'many'!!! :lol: enakku athellaam illainga madam 8-)

[MADDY]

In spite of age-old discrimination- I feel it is genetic, in the male's build-up, male chauvnism- women have been establishing their importance with superiority, authority, dignity & emphasis from within their fortress! Isles of 'little worlds' do make the society at large, don't they? :huh:

i feel women should work........they get a broader perspective when they work and mingle with ppl. from various walks of life.........though school/college are already serving that purpose, work area is the place where we all mature........so, i think women should be exposed to the work environment where they will learn and get to see lots of events/incidents/characters and most importantly learn how to react to them :D

[Devar Magan]

In spite of age-old discrimination- I feel it is genetic, in the male's build-up, male chauvnism- women have been establishing their importance with superiority, authority, dignity & emphasis from within their fortress! Isles of 'little worlds' do make the society at large, don't they? :huh:

i feel women should work........they get a broader perspective when they work and mingle with ppl. from various walks of life.........though school/college are already serving that purpose, work area is the place where we all mature........so, i think women should be exposed to the work environment where they will learn and get to see lots of events/incidents/characters and most importantly learn how to react to them :D why did such a question arise???

why shud somebody think that women shudnt go to work :huh:

[pavalamani pragasam]

Oru VEla unga office'la peNgal yArume vaela-ku varAta ungalku scene romba dull-a theriyum-nu varthathoda ibbidi kobapadrenglo? :wink: J/K! :P :D athuvum right thaan :lol:

but, nurture panren, guide panren, values solli kodukurenu sollittu penaathunaa, naan chumma irukka maatten..


our PP madam is discouraging the current generation with her posts.. if she cant encourage us, no problem.. if she openly posts her opinion, i have the right to post mine too.. 8-)

sabai naagareegam-nu onnu irukku! you have failed despicably in that! shame on you! How can you hope to prevent me from 'openly' expressing my views? I can't understand why I shouldn't express them 'openly'! :roll: Who is preventing you from opening a thread and pouring out all your views. Are you aware of how you are making yourself a laughing stock here by your ridiculous & unrefined expressions?

[pavalamani pragasam]

In spite of age-old discrimination- I feel it is genetic, in the male's build-up, male chauvnism- women have been establishing their importance with superiority, authority, dignity & emphasis from within their fortress! Isles of 'little worlds' do make the society at large, don't they? :huh:

i feel women should work........they get a broader perspective when they work and mingle with ppl. from various walks of life.........though school/college are already serving that purpose, work area is the place where we all mature........so, i think women should be exposed to the work environment where they will learn and get to see lots of events/incidents/characters and most importantly learn how to react to them :D
What is preventing them from broadening their 'perspective' from home? Can you imagine the precious need of their presence at home for the family- the children, the elders? Is it replaceable? Yesterday my second son had come to visit us with his 3-year old son. I enjoyed feeding him his lunch using all the ploys I can to push down what I wanted to. I recalled all those happy, past years of the childhood of our own 3 children. Does a paid ayah in a creche stick the spoonfuls with the same affection making it enjoyable for both sides? Kids taken care of full time by the mother DEFINITELY are lucky & they grow into happy, balanced adults. It is a mother's prerogative to watch her child grow, blossom. Don't rob her of it. There is extra dimension of brilliance & confidence in such children. Last night we rang to wish our 5-year old grandson(daughter's son) happy birthday, I asked him playfully 'how old are you?' He answered, 'ten thousand years' and started giggling uncontrollably. this joyful creativeness comes to them only in a safely, intimately nirtured environment. Our 5-year-old grandson from Mumbai (first son's son) rang & told my hubby that he has obtained 2 hundreds in abacus. I asked him, 'thumhE thO sow mil gaya?' Our dil interrupted to say he got 100 only but the teacher had marked 100 in 2 places, on each page. She was strictly telling the truth to her son removing his false opinion. I pleaded with her to let him enjoy a harmless joy. But she wouldn't relent! I would have done the same in her place. But now as grandma I have mellowed to wink at such things!!! But I am proud of my dil in her policy. She spends her whole time & energy for the 2 bright kids & my 'kid'!!! In my footsteps! Both my dils & daughters are very intelligent, educated young ladies with a broad perspective and dedicated, happy housewives. Am I wrong in wishing to spread the good message to the womenkind of our world?

[app_engine]

>>There is extra dimension of brilliance & confidence in such children.<<

While attention by parents (esp. mom during early months / years) is very important for child's development, this 'extra' brilliance / confidence is, IMO, only wishful thinking:-) There are millions of 'AyA' grown, brilliant, confident and balanced children. There're also millions of children who were "nurtured" by mom to no end that ended up as average people and also not-so-balanced in their lives. These two are strictly not connected, IMO.

It's nice to see your conviction of parental time and attention to children. However, to attribute that tangibly to brilliance etc. and how the child would act in later years is, again IMO, going overboard. A not-so-wise mom can also spoil her children (both in the health perspecitve and discipline perspective). i.e., if the mother herself is not quite brilliant or balanced, whatever nurturing etc is not going to make a great child.

[app_engine]

Another thing - moms with jobs do not automatically mean deprived children. I have seen 100's of moms who live close to work place ("staff quarters" etc), who can manage both, with a little help from some old relative who stays home:-)

[pavalamani pragasam]

Looks like arguing for argument's sake! :lol: Being older than you I may have seen even more instances of unelightened mothers who have made their children grow into pucca villains & brutes!!!

What I wish is enlightenment for women, encouraging home environment for children & elders, pampered life in the shade & safety of home for women( already 'gifted' with enough physical discomforts by nature why aggravate it with all that added strain?). AND peace in the lives of men!!! :wink:

[app_engine]

Looks like arguing for argument's sake! :lol: Being older than you I may have seen even more instances of unelightened mothers who have made their children grow into pucca villains & brutes!!!

And even after all such experience, you say those who are spoon-fed by moms are "extra" brilliant than others who are spoon-fed by chiththi's, pAtti's and 'AyA's :-) Funny!

It was not an intention to 'argue for argument's sake'. Unscientific ideas cannot be accepted, despite noble intentions. That's all!

[joe]

if the mother herself is not quite brilliant or balanced, whatever nurturing etc is not going to make a great child.

True :)

[sarna_blr]

Kids taken care of full time by the mother DEFINITELY are lucky & they grow into happy, balanced adults. It is a mother's prerogative to watch her child grow, blossom. Don't rob her of it. There is extra dimension of brilliance & confidence in such children.



:clap:

ungalOda pala karuththukkal indha generationaala(me too) yEththukka mudiyalanaalum.... idha yaaraalum marukka mudiyaadhu.... :D

[pavalamani pragasam]

chithis, paattis come under my scheme as occassional substitutes for the mothers but not paid ayahs!

mmm..'unscientific'? Well, there are many things in life that just happen-good & bad- which can never have 'scientific' explanation!!! I am for intellectualism, yet I believe strongly in intuitive approach also.

[sarna_blr]

In spite of age-old discrimination- I feel it is genetic, in the male's build-up, male chauvnism- women have been establishing their importance with superiority, authority, dignity & emphasis from within their fortress! Isles of 'little worlds' do make the society at large, don't they? :huh:

neenga enna solla var'reenga.... :roll:


enna puriyala? :wink:

enakku purinjadhu.... but neenga ippadi solveenganu edhirpaarkkala... :?

PS... naan solla nenachchadha DM sollittaaru.... avar sonna ellaa points'um kidayaadhu.......siladhu mattum...

[app_engine]

>>encouraging home environment for children<<

After the (last)child goes to school at 5 (nowadays earlier), if a mom is forced to sit idle at home - citing reasons like "physical discomfort" etc, she'll possibly get depressed. This is perhaps one of the reasons for my personal observation of "higher rate of depression among middle aged, educated housewives". That is not so much in the case of working women, much less as per my personal observation. (If statistics from official sources show otherwise, I'll change my opinion).

It's not necessarily a job, but some engaging activity (may be a voluntary service at a local center of charity) is important for women instead of getting spoilt seeing TV serials:-)

[pavalamani pragasam]

<but neenga ippadi solveenganu edhirpaarkkala>

I often laugh to myself in pure amusement at all the 'notions' people have about me!!! kurudan yaaNaiyai paarththa kathaithaan!!!

[sarna_blr]

>>encouraging home environment for children<<

After the (last)child goes to school at 5 (nowadays earlier), if a mom is forced to sit idle at home - citing reasons like "physical discomfort" etc, she'll possibly get depressed. This is perhaps one of the reasons for my personal observation of "higher rate of depression among middle aged, educated housewives". That is not so much in the case of working women, much less as per my personal observation. (If statistics from official sources show otherwise, I'll change my opinion).

It's not necessarily a job, but some engaging activity (may be a voluntary service at a local center of charity) is important for women instead of getting spoilt seeing TV serials:-)

veettula irundhaa chummaa irukkaanga'nu arththamaa?... avanga seira vElaya oru naal neenga senju paarunga.... appa puriyum andha kashttam....

[app_engine]

>>yet I believe strongly in intuitive approach also<<
எப்படி? அம்மா கையில் அன்னம் உண்ட குழந்தை அல்லாததை விட அறிவாளி என்றா? அம்மா என்றால் அன்பு, நாட் நெசசரிலி அறிவு:-))

[pavalamani pragasam]

>>encouraging home environment for children<<

After the (last)child goes to school at 5 (nowadays earlier), if a mom is forced to sit idle at home - citing reasons like "physical discomfort" etc, she'll possibly get depressed. This is perhaps one of the reasons for my personal observation of "higher rate of depression among middle aged, educated housewives". That is not so much in the case of working women, much less as per my personal observation. (If statistics from official sources show otherwise, I'll change my opinion).

It's not necessarily a job, but some engaging activity (may be a voluntary service at a local center of charity) is important for women instead of getting spoilt seeing TV serials:-)

Of course, as the children grow up, women get more leisure, more time for themselves. Not all get immersed in mega serials. There are ever so many activities one can take up without disturbing their household chores. My belief is career women are more prone to stress & depression than women at home! They age faster, suffer more physical ailments! How dependable are your statistics if there are any?

[app_engine]

>>veettula irundhaa chummaa irukkaanga'nu arththamaa?... avanga seira vElaya oru naal neenga senju paarunga.... appa puriyum andha kashttam....<<

sarna_blr, we're talking about a situation that a woman experiences after she's suddenly relieved of looking after the child for about 6 hours a day, everything else being the same. I'm not of the opinion that all women at home idle watching TV. (Interstingly, in U.S., the term used is 'home maker' and not 'house wife'). However, with modern technology making a lot of things easy (washing, cooking etc take fraction of a time compared to what our parents had to suffer), it could be hard on women at home. Especially if they are college-educated and want to use some of their knowledge in more ways than helping the child's "home work".:-)

[app_engine]

Another thing, sarna_blr, "avanga seira vElaiya" nAn pala nAL seidhrukkEn:-)) So I know exactly the correct magnitude:-))

[sarna_blr]

Another thing, sarna_blr, "avanga seira vElaiya" nAn pala nAL seidhrukkEn:-)) So I know exactly the correct magnitude:-))

:bow:

[pavalamani pragasam]

>>yet I believe strongly in intuitive approach also<<
எப்படி? அம்மா கையில் அன்னம் உண்ட குழந்தை அல்லாததை விட அறிவாளி என்றா? அம்மா என்றால் அன்பு, நாட் நெசசரிலி அறிவு:-))

If you are bent on arguing like this I can only laugh indulgently!

[joe]

, "avanga seira vElaiya" nAn pala nAL seidhrukkEn:-)) So I know exactly the correct magnitude:-))

Me also :)

[pavalamani pragasam]

>>veettula irundhaa chummaa irukkaanga'nu arththamaa?... avanga seira vElaya oru naal neenga senju paarunga.... appa puriyum andha kashttam....<<

sarna_blr, we're talking about a situation that a woman experiences after she's suddenly relieved of looking after the child for about 6 hours a day, everything else being the same. I'm not of the opinion that all women at home idle watching TV. (Interstingly, in U.S., the term used is 'home maker' and not 'house wife'). However, with modern technology making a lot of things easy (washing, cooking etc take fraction of a time compared to what our parents had to suffer), it could be hard on women at home. Especially if they are college-educated and want to use some of their knowledge in more ways than helping the child's "home work".:-)

The labour-saving, time-saving kitchen gadgets are not completely a boon! They are encouraging obesity & all sorts of illnesses, driving us to desperate measures to burn calories- a predicament unknown to our grandmas! kuninji nimirnthu vElai senja pombaLanga evvaLavO healthyaa irunthaanga!
athenna ellOrum college education-ai , athanaal kidaiththa knowledge-ai veLiyE pOy kaasaakkivida vENdum enRu bOthikkiReergaL? :roll:

[pavalamani pragasam]

, "avanga seira vElaiya" nAn pala nAL seidhrukkEn:-)) So I know exactly the correct magnitude:-))

Me also :)

My sons while on onsite stints had to do all household work that you are referring to! One never liked it, waited impatiently to return home, the other was resigned to it with reasonable acceptance & after returning keeps 'pestering' his wife by offering to help her!
In the older generation men had no necessity for this compulsory household responsibilities! Nowadays it is a common thing! Reminds me of the jolly discussions we had long ago about 'househusbands'!!! :lol: Many takers for the reversal of the role! :rotfl:

[app_engine]

My belief is career women are more prone to stress & depression than women at home! They age faster, suffer more physical ailments! How dependable are your statistics if there are any?

Well, most women that I personally know of who has suffered some form of severe depression happens to be a middle aged, home maker. (If not a regular homemaker, someone who was at that time without a job and at home). FYI, I serve in a voluntary org that deals with a lot of people, apart from my regular full-time job.

That's why I said it's a personal observation. Again, I'm not for or against the "chemical imbalance theory" for depression. There are any number of theories stating the cause for depression. However, one of the common therapy methods is to ask people to engage in "meaningful activity", which could be severely lacking in the case of someone who could be idling at home (that leads to paranoid situations, for e.g.).

I'm willing to change my opinion if there are medical stats otherwise.

[joe]

athenna ellOrum college education-ai , athanaal kidaiththa knowledge-ai veLiyE pOy kaasaakkivida vENdum enRu bOthikkiReergaL? :roll:

Aampillainga mattum education-a vachu samooga sevaiya pannuraanga ? why restrict only women ?

If a women wanted to be self reliant just like man ,what is wrong ?

Is women education qualification is just for man to show that his wife has got Mba ,MCA etc ? :roll:

[app_engine]

>>My sons while on onsite stints had to do all household work that you are referring to!<<

Wrong assumption, in my case:-) Even with a homemaker at my home, it's done as a "choice"!

[app_engine]

>>They age faster, suffer more physical ailments<<

Another unscientific theory madam! காட்டுக்குப்போய் வேலை செய்த என் உறவினர்களை விட வீட்டிலிருந்த பெண்டிருக்குத்தான் வியாதி அதிகம்:-))

[joe]

In the older generation men had no necessity for this compulsory household responsibilities! :

I don't do it for compulsion ..In weekends I try my best to share most of the works and let my wife to spend time with what she likes personally.

[app_engine]

Any work on health will tell you how much important out-door activity is. Unless someone has a village like house with a garden etc (becoming rarity nowadays), how is the house-wife going to get that fresh breath of air?

Once again, I'm not talking about only office job / career for women, but activity outside home is a must to be healthy. வீட்டுக்குள் பூட்டி வைக்காதீர்கள்:-)

[pavalamani pragasam]

My belief is career women are more prone to stress & depression than women at home! They age faster, suffer more physical ailments! How dependable are your statistics if there are any?

Well, most women that I personally know of who has suffered some form of severe depression happens to be a middle aged, home maker. (If not a regular homemaker, someone who was at that time without a job and at home). FYI, I serve in a voluntary org that deals with a lot of people, apart from my regular full-time job.

That's why I said it's a personal observation. Again, I'm not for or against the "chemical imbalance theory" for depression. There are any number of theories stating the cause for depression. However, one of the common therapy methods is to ask people to engage in "meaningful activity", which could be severely lacking in the case of someone who could be idling at home (that leads to paranoid situations, for e.g.).

I'm willing to change my opinion if there are medical stats otherwise.

Are you referring to Indian conditions? Voluntary services done in India? In our environment I see no reason for 'idling' ( do I read jealousy of men here? :lol: ) leading to paranoia or any depression! :huh:

[joe]

காட்டுக்குப்போய் வேலை செய்த என் உறவினர்களை விட வீட்டிலிருந்த பெண்டிருக்குத்தான் வியாதி அதிகம்:-))

Naan solla ninaithen ..neenga solliteenga :)

[app_engine]

Specifically, Kerala. Interestingly, I observe the same here in Michigan!

[pavalamani pragasam]

athenna ellOrum college education-ai , athanaal kidaiththa knowledge-ai veLiyE pOy kaasaakkivida vENdum enRu bOthikkiReergaL? :roll:

Aampillainga mattum education-a vachu samooga sevaiya pannuraanga ? why restrict only women ?

If a women wanted to be self reliant just like man ,what is wrong ?

Is women education qualification is just for man to show that his wife has got Mba ,MCA etc ? :roll:

uththiyOgam purusha latchaNam! :lol:

[pavalamani pragasam]

காட்டுக்குப்போய் வேலை செய்த என் உறவினர்களை விட வீட்டிலிருந்த பெண்டிருக்குத்தான் வியாதி அதிகம்:-))

Naan solla ninaithen ..neenga solliteenga :)

pattaNaththu poNNukaLa eppadi pattikaattukku kudipeyarkka mudiyum? kaattu vElaikkum veettu vElaikkum comparison illai! veettu vElaikkum, office vElaikkumthaan ippo discussion!

[joe]

uththiyOgam purusha latchaNam! :lol:

Then ,what is next ?

Adimaiththanam is Manushi Latchanam? :roll:

[pavalamani pragasam]

Any work on health will tell you how much important out-door activity is. Unless someone has a village like house with a garden etc (becoming rarity nowadays), how is the house-wife going to get that fresh breath of air?

Once again, I'm not talking about only office job / career for women, but activity outside home is a must to be healthy. வீட்டுக்குள் பூட்டி வைக்காதீர்கள்:-)

Who said women are under lock & key??? :roll:

[pavalamani pragasam]

uththiyOgam purusha latchaNam! :lol:

Then ,what is next ?

Adimaiththanam is Manushi Latchanam? :roll:
What is adimaiththanam??? :roll:

[app_engine]

There is something called 'figurative' language:-) Anyways, let me explain what it means -

'pootti vaiththal' can easily be done by statements like below:

-women, be at home in your little kingdom as outside home is man's kingdom
-women, be happy about child-rearing at home and kitchen activites. May be read, surf, watch TV etc but never worry about any activity outside - not even charitable work
-women, working and earning money is not for you. It's only for men to be engaged in

All the above are figurative lock & key stuff. To work or not work depends upon one's situation and INDIVIDUAL CHOICE. I may not know the best situation for "Mrs Lakshmi" or "Miss Meena" as much as they do:-) (Disclaimer - names are just generic examples, does not refer to any individual)

[pavalamani pragasam]

Time to go to bed!!!

[app_engine]

One of my childhood friends was the eldest of 6 and his dad worked with my dad, but was an alcoholic. Apart from not giving a paisa to home, he'll hit wife, throw vessels around, shout and abuse children. The mom, though wanted to remedy the situation, had only primary education. So what did she finally do? Worked in the local school kitchen and brought up all the children. Can we tell her to sit home, after all 'uththiyOgam is purusha lakshanam'? Then we won't have 6 mature adults in the society today (and my friend later took care of his dad's addiction after he grew up and employed, by treating him in a clinic), but possibly criminals.

So, the decision to work or not has to be on a case-by-case basis. There cannot be a blanket statement.