not being able to speak hindi [Archive]

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kannuma

21st February 2005, 09:31 AM

i dont speak hindi, and just the other day i met a desi guy who looked down upon the fact that i couldnt speak hindi. nevermind i spoke tamil and telugu. is it more essential to know hindi, and forget your mother-tongue etc? what do you think?

Sandeep

21st February 2005, 01:07 PM

Language is just for communication. As long as you knowing or not knowing a language doesnt affect your communication knowing your mother tongue or any other language doesnt matter.

Ofcource there is a cultural aspect to language but then that is upto you. If you want you can learn otherwise why should others care.

mandangi

21st February 2005, 01:14 PM

Learning hindi is not very difficult. In those days i too dont know hindi. Now i am frequently watching hindi channels.

Shakthiprabha.

21st February 2005, 02:46 PM

As long as u are able to communicate what u wanna convey, LANGUAGE SHOULD NEVER BE A PROB.

In case u wanna give importance to national language and try learning hindi, I wuold suggest, PRACTICALLY LEARN IT BY TALKIN TO PPL. Not by learning books.

Hindi is easy. good luck

mandangi

21st February 2005, 08:08 PM

In talk in hindi with very few people. Hindi speakers are very less in our area. Nowadays i am enjoying watching hindi channels.

Mad Max

21st February 2005, 09:29 PM

is it more essential to know hindi, and forget your mother-tongue etc? what do you think?

Absolutely not. I proudly proclaim to Hindi Bigots that I do not speak Hindi (even if I can). If they talk back I break their faces. Be proud of your mother tongue. There is no such thing as a national language. If you need to learn a second language for your career, learn English. Learning Hindi is good for nothing.

Mad Max

21st February 2005, 09:37 PM

just the other day i met a desi guy who looked down upon the fact that i couldnt speak hindi.

Don't let them do that to you girl. Stand up for yourself and rip such fellows to pieces (verbally of course :) )

Shakthiprabha.

21st February 2005, 09:43 PM

//There is no such thing as a national language. If you need to learn a second language for your career, learn English. Learning Hindi is good for nothing.//

THERE IT GOES AGAIN! I HAVE NOTHING TO SAY AGAINST OR FOR SUCH PPL.

GOOD LUCK!

Each one is happier being themselves I guess.

Can someone enlighten me, as to WHYYYYYYYYYYYYYY IS IT NOT ESSENTIAL TO LEARN ANOTHER LANGUAGE? (IF U LEARN, U FORGET UR MOTHER TONGUE?...WHAT THE HECK!)

We guys can learn english, and be proud (or not proud) about it,
CALLING SOME FOREIGN LANGUAGE OUR OWN, but

anyway.........waste arguing..

this is my last post in this therad(AS THOUGH PPL CARE EH?!?!)

Mad Max

21st February 2005, 10:00 PM

THERE IT GOES AGAIN! I HAVE NOTHING TO SAY AGAINST OR FOR SUCH PPL.

- reply removed by me -

kannuma

21st February 2005, 10:01 PM

Can someone enlighten me, as to WHYYYYYYYYYYYYYY IS IT NOT ESSENTIAL TO LEARN ANOTHER LANGUAGE? (IF U LEARN, U FORGET UR MOTHER TONGUE?...WHAT THE HECK!)

We guys can learn english, and be proud (or not proud) about it,
CALLING SOME FOREIGN LANGUAGE OUR OWN, but

anyway.........waste arguing..

this is my last post in this therad(AS THOUGH PPL CARE EH?!?!)

i don't mean it in the way you make it sound. im saying, knowing hindi is practically a criterium for being desi nowadays. at leats thats wht i gather. and btw i do know more than one language(speak fluently 6, can read and understand 2 others).

Mad Max

21st February 2005, 10:06 PM

i don't mean it in the way you make it sound. im saying, knowing hindi is practically a criterium for being desi nowadays. at leats thats wht i gather. and btw i do know more than one language(speak fluently 6, can read and understand 2 others).

Anu,

Do not listen to these people. Regardless of the topic at hand, you should NEVER let others belittle you, like that desi fellow did. That's all.

Shakthiprabha.

21st February 2005, 10:14 PM

//i don't mean it in the way you make it sound. im saying, knowing hindi is practically a criterium for being desi nowadays. at leats thats wht i gather. and btw i do know more than one language(speak fluently 6, can read and understand 2 others).//

that post was not on u kanuma, ur topic was straight, kwel and SENSIBLE.

Thanks for taking time to reply me :). u sure must be too good with 6 languages at ur disposal :)

Good luck!

Mad Max

21st February 2005, 10:37 PM

Hey Shak! I thought you had already made your last post in this thread? :lol:

Shakthiprabha.

21st February 2005, 10:56 PM

//Hey Shak! I thought you had already made your last post in this thread? //

Very smart indeed mr.mad max.

once bitten twice shy.

thanks.

Mad Max

21st February 2005, 11:06 PM

I would have responded in a nicer manner if you had not started screaming and yelling at me like that. :(

If I say that it is not necessary to learn Hindi, it is just my opinion and you can counter it with intelligent arguments. But did you really have to go yelling like you did?

I did not intend to hurt you. I will remove the remarks which you have objected to.

Shakthiprabha.

21st February 2005, 11:11 PM

Well we all have our own mannerisms in talking.I know in internet CAPS IS yelling.Unfortunately I use it FOR *STRESSING*
a particular word again. What I intended was STRESSING on 'why'.

Lets leave it, AND THANKS(no I dont intend shouting) u need not remove it.

I do appreciate ur courtesy . Thanks once again. I take time to heal. None of ur mistake though. SORRY .

Mad Max

22nd February 2005, 12:07 AM

Thiru

22nd February 2005, 12:45 AM

Mad Max

22nd February 2005, 01:02 AM

jaiganes

22nd February 2005, 08:30 AM

absolutely not necessary in whatsoever circumstance wherever you are(except of course you are in bihar or haryana working in PR). But learning other languages is fun and as u told already u know 6 thats great!! If that desi guy is someone you dote on... then this thread becomes similar to the "to pierce or not " thread. Then i guess ppl like shakthi, NM, scorpio and ratchasi should be the ones u have to listen to. :wink:

a.ratchasi

22nd February 2005, 08:58 AM

Regardless of the topic at hand, you should NEVER let others belittle you, like that desi fellow did. That's all.

Dat's the way, MM. :clap::clap:

Do not let others dictate what is right or wrong.

Querida

23rd February 2005, 02:16 AM

Being in the US, i've faced one too many occassions when people from india (particularly northies/mumbaikars) assume that you know hindi and start talking to you in hindi... What made me mad was a couple of people asking me back, 'what you dont know hindi? how come you dont know hindi' as if its an indian birthright to know hindi....

same here...but i always like to learn languages so see it as just another challenge...my mother tongue was certainly a challenge...i felt ashamed that i could do really well in the romance language classes but not at all in my own language...but took up the challeng and always working in bettering it...but what Shakti said is so correct i have found speaking with people is much harder than just learning the grammar/comprehension of a language...after all people don't usually speak slowly for you or even with proper words, mostly likely they'll use slang or even mince the words....the best way is to learn through speaking the language...for the longest time i could speak/understand my mother tongue (not perfectly) but could not read or write...but i have spent a number of years learning french, spanish, italian, german....but when it comes to face to face i falter...epsecially if i haven't been working on it recently.....but more than speaking i truly love the linguistics of languages so it doesn't bother me too much :D

i have found that sometimes when explaining something in english there is nothing that captures the word perfectly than your own language term :)

Shakthiprabha.

23rd February 2005, 02:40 AM

//...i felt ashamed that i could do really well in the romance language classes //

:huh: whats that querida???

Querida

23rd February 2005, 04:06 AM

romantic languages are just languages that have been based on latin...such as french, italian, spanish, german. i can see why my statement is misunderstood...cause nowadays whenever we see romance we think of the acts of love...when actually it has more to do with the 'roman'...romance meaning (love) came out of the movement of romanticism. "Romanticism emphasized the individual, the subjective, the irrational, the imaginative, the personal, the spontaneous, the emotional, the visionary, and the transcendental." when speaking of struggle, emotion, personal, subjectiveness, personality, passion it is no surprise that the topic of love covers all these concepts though it was not the only thing written one it was one of the most popular topics to be explored during this time.

nirosha sen

23rd February 2005, 07:00 AM

Hey thanks Q - You've just explained exactly what I had been trying to dispel about the notion, a book I just read, was conveying!!

And I was right!! Thanks Q! :D

joe

23rd February 2005, 07:22 AM

SkathiPrabha and others..

Pls read my experience here.
http://cdjm.blogspot.com/2005/02/blog-post_14.html

blahblah

23rd February 2005, 01:19 PM

Not being able to speak Hindi or any other language is perfectly fine,though I would recommend people learn English.

Right now,I am biased against Hindi or anything North Indian,thanks to fanatics like Hindustani Ladka,who tries to burden people with their 'ka-kee-koo' language.

So for the time being I have decided not learn Hindi,even if I have to use sign language.

The reason?-That is a language of the fanatics which has no great literary tradition as English,French,Russian,Greek or even Sanskrit,Bengali and Tamil.Again it helps you in no way to reach out to this world or advance in your life.

It is not a language which unites the people of this country,but one which divides them.Hindiwalas can dream of the people all over the world speaking their'great wonderful language',but it will remain a dream.

jaiganes

23rd February 2005, 01:58 PM

A close friend of mine initially had the same 'notion' on the status of Hindi. He was thinking that it is 'Raashtrabaasha' meaning national language and everybody in India knew it. But I made him understand that that was not the case. He realised it when we went on site. He felt so uncomfortable talking all day in english with managers and clients. I just told him that I too felt the same way when someone insisted on speaking a language to 'fit in'. He realised his mistake and is in Bangalore for 3 years and he is now trying to learn spoken kannada, which initially he had no idea of learning. When there is diversity, then why don't we enjoy it instead of trying to destroy it by imposing something uniform. I could have uinderstood if english weren't there, but since english is there, then that makes life that much easier ain't it? The whole line of argument they used to give before was that if someone from south gets employed in north then he will be all at sea. Now ever since the boom in jobs in south has begun to happen, it is the otherway around and the advocates of hindi are being made to eat humble pie coz it is they who are coming running to south and not the other way around. :lol: :lol:

visu

23rd February 2005, 05:34 PM

I too had problems with northies. But i dont give a damn. :poke:

The funny part is Paki's& Bangla's will straight away talk in hindi assuming i know it. Then i have to explain to them. But they dont mind that. Not like crack northies.

Nowadays learning hindi only helps in watching Hindi films.

Shekhar

23rd February 2005, 06:13 PM

Let us not belittle a language because of some people with narrow mind and vision.
I too have been infuriated by some North Indians who presume that everybody knows and should know Hindi. I know people with similar attitude in South India also. Both of them are fools and losers. I have seen North Indian Officers in Administrative services working in south India speaking South Indian languages beautifully like their own mother tongue. I have also seen people speaking their own mother tongue horribly.
I know Hindi and and have learnt, when I had the opportunity, to speak it very well , for the only reason that it has its beauty like any other language. If I had not, I would not have been able to enjoy certain great Hindi films and some great Hindi songs.
I believe a language is for communication ... period. I feel attaching emotions to a language is immature and detrimental to one's growth.

Shakthiprabha.

24th February 2005, 01:03 AM

thx querida, nice explanation.

I 1000 percent agree with shekar's post. Good one
and sensible too shekar.

Shakthiprabha.

24th February 2005, 01:03 AM

joe,

ur blog is in unicode, hence right now i am unable to read.
Would read soon, and post a comment there.

Querida

24th February 2005, 02:03 AM

Joe i'm actually proud of myself to being able to read your blog...sorry only the last part with political references i didn't understand...but what you state is very true...just hope that the person who asked you this question got a taste of insight as well...

Joe really now i've asked like three times already...and you miss it each time :P where did you get your classic avatar? which movie is your avatar from? Is it Parashakti? Anyways good choice :D

Shekhar what you said is very true...i do not speak it but i really enjoy watching movies or listening to songs in hindhi...every language has a beauty to it...

mellon

24th February 2005, 02:20 AM

Joe really now i've asked like three times already and you miss it each time where did you get your classic avatar? .....

But I never missed either your "queries" or "his rude nonresponse" :cry: I bet you this time you will get the answer :)

Querida

24th February 2005, 02:25 AM

hope so mellon....nice to know someone remembers :D :thumbsup:

mellon

24th February 2005, 02:52 AM

All kinds of people to make the world, they say :)

Mad Max

24th February 2005, 05:11 AM

Nowadays learning hindi only helps in watching Hindi films.

Nowadays Hindi movie DVDs come with English subtitles. So it is totally useless to learn this stupid language unless you plan to travel to north India.

joe

24th February 2005, 09:27 AM

Querida,
I remember I have answered you previously..Sorry If I am wrong.

Yes,It is the famous court scene from 'Parasakthi'
I am not sure about the source..But you can see the same still here
http://tamil.cinesouth.com/specials/interviews/sivaji.shtml

SakthiPrabha,
waiting for you comments ..If you are not using XP ,download unicode font and try.

mandangi

24th February 2005, 10:12 AM

is it more essential to know hindi, and forget your mother-tongue etc? what do you think?
Learning national language is also important. But there is no need to forget mother toungue. For unity between all Inidans hindi is important. For communication in our locality regional language is must.

jaiganes

24th February 2005, 10:47 AM

Shekhar wrote:

I would not have been able to enjoy certain great Hindi films and some great Hindi songs.

Godd for you dude! I agree! If I want to enjoy spanish movies, I have to learn spanish. Good reasoning and logic. I accept that. In fact in my case I learnt hindi through movies and TV serials. I have no qualms with that.

I believe a language is for communication ... period. I feel attaching emotions to a language is immature and detrimental to one's growth.

I agree with it too!
The confusion in this case is tying language 'A' to a pan national identity and say that you have lost national spirit because you don't speak that language 'A'. This thread is not to discuss which language is better, rather it is about attitudes of certain section of people that language 'A' represents the national identity as a whole better. This is where contradiction comes between you and me. If this argument is about your language vs my language then all that you have said and every line of shakthi's post hold good. It is a proven fact that India is one country that does not have a pan national culture or symbolism and it is based on the ideals that such a symbolism will only deepen the divide and break the federation of Indian diversity. So 'unity in diversity' implies that there need not be a common language or culture to be united. In this essence India on paper is the only true plural and secular country in the whole world. So a north indian trying to chide anybody else (not necessarily a thamizhan) that it is important to learn 'the one national language' is indeed acting against the spirit of Indian values and ethos and can be sued in court for harassment and discrimination.

joe

24th February 2005, 11:09 AM

Jaiganes,
Excellent post.

Cinefan

24th February 2005, 11:15 AM

I would say everybody needs to be fluent in the mother tongue&English.As for learning other languages,it should be because of interest or for effective communication esp if you are working in a different state.For example a city like Bangalore has people from so many states but the majority of them don't bother to learn Kannada.They work here for years but still use only their mother tongue(Tamil,Telugu,Hindi,Malayalam)or English.Why can't they just learn the language?This happens either because they are nonchalent or have a stupid 'veri'for their own language.It is this kind of an attitude which helps certain people/organizations to fuel negative opinions&strong biases.Whether it's a southie working up north or vice-versa or a southie working in a different state in the south,knowledge of the mother tongue,English&the local language is a must.

Shakthiprabha.

24th February 2005, 02:29 PM

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scorpio

24th February 2005, 02:35 PM

SP,

How do I read what u've written?

jaiganes

24th February 2005, 02:44 PM

Scorpio wrote:

How do I read what u've written?

Light the candle and in its light, try reading it.(chumma oru joke kku)
It is some secret Thamizh font akka. Avingalaa sonnaa thaan undu.

joe

24th February 2005, 04:09 PM

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SakthiPrabha,
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Mad Max

25th February 2005, 06:38 AM

[tscii:4f61fc9933]Á¢ø¼ý,

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Cinefan

25th February 2005, 11:36 AM

I have a request to everyone,plz stick to english as much as possible while posting,am not able to understand so many posts. :roll:

joe

25th February 2005, 11:47 AM

Cine fan,
You can't understand due to font problem or you can't read tamil?If it is due to font pls download Tsc_avarangal font then you can read.

Since I wrote my thoughts in tamil in blog and the issue is on the language,,we posted in Tamil..no other reason

scorpio

25th February 2005, 11:48 AM

Joe,

Can u guide where to download that font??

jaiganes

25th February 2005, 11:57 AM

joe wrote:

Since I wrote my thoughts in tamil in blog and the issue is on the language,,we posted in Tamil..no other reason
In sivaji style as in gnaana oli
Joe, Joe!My dear friend joe!
What if I am a manipuri guy having similar grouse?
You are psting in Thamizh because you think that majority are thamizh. By doing that you are proving to be no different from the northie guy who irritated you in the first place. so lets practice what we preach. shall we ?

joe

25th February 2005, 12:12 PM

scorpio,
You can download from here
http://www.megspace.com/computers/paxi1/1/aanGilam/tscii_pkm.html#thuvakkam

Jaiganes,
Initially I have given the link of my blog where I wrote in tamil related with this topic..Since SakthiPrabha replied me in tamil,I replied in Tamil also.

I didn't compell anybody like "you must know tamil to discuss here" and i never forced anybody .If you are a manipuri guy..I am ready to explain you the same in english if you want..sorry ..I don't know manipuri

jaiganes

25th February 2005, 12:16 PM

Joe wrote:

sorry ..I don't know manipuri
Thanks for that! As Cinefan wrote, simple English would do for me! In manipur we are endowed with decent english reading comprehension skills . :lol: :wink:

joe

25th February 2005, 12:36 PM

For those who don't understand Tamil..following is my content of my previous post in Tamil.

SakthiPrabha,
Thanks for your reply.
Hope you understand that I never oppose learning Hindi if it is necessary for that individual.

Linking Hinding knowledge and Patriotsm is my concern.India has formed as one country for political reason uniting multi ethinic,multi lingustic people .It is an united states.It is dangerous ,if one sector of people try to establish only a particular language is the symbol for nationalism.

That too,not accepting a language which is older and more native to this country as one of the recognised language of this land is truely unacceptable.

Anybody can learn any language if it is required for them..we have no objection.

One of the reasons why south indian doing better in education and technology is because we don't give much importance to hindi and give more importance to english.

So,My points is not "We shouldn't learn Hindi" ..If you learn ,that is an additional qualification too..But that is not the only one qualification to be an Indian

Shekhar

25th February 2005, 01:19 PM

Politically, I don't find the need for a national language, and to say that Hindi will unite Indians is myth and a farse. If at all there is need for a lingua franca, it should be English, and we can move much faster in the world scenario.
The reason given by the North Indians to impose Hindi as the national language is that it is spoken by majority. Well in that case, the crow should the national bird, and dog should be the national animal!!
If any one wants to push Hindi or any other language, at the expense of English, then he is an impediment to the progress of this country.

blahblah

25th February 2005, 01:20 PM

Linking Hinding knowledge and Patriotsm is my concern.India has formed as one country for political reason uniting multi ethinic,multi lingustic people .It is an united states.It is dangerous ,if one sector of people try to establish only a particular language is the symbol for nationalism.
One of the reasons why south indian doing better in education and technology is because we don't give much importance to hindi and give more importance to english.

Agrees fully with your point.If India has to evolve as a harmonius,tolerant power,the basic motto 'Unity in Diversity' is very important.I don't know why Hindi turned out to a language which divides this country!
I believe more stress on learning Hindi over English seriously affects development in this country.I have seen many months back,an article in a Pakistani newspaper,which describes the huge English speaking population of youngsters as a decisive advantage India has over Pakistan,in the area of development.

I can see that many of our hubbers here occupy very good posts in international companies such as in the software industry.How many of you could have reached that level if you didn't speak English,while being a Hindi expert?

jaiganes

25th February 2005, 01:59 PM

rabbit ji wrote:

How many of you could have reached that level if you didn't speak English,while being a Hindi expert?
Extension of your argument would be...
Add 3000 MM Joshis, Laloos, Sushmaswarajs and worser still Uma Bharathis and Paswans to the politician list!! :lol: :lol:
And MG Road would have become EMPTY road... :cry: :cry:

Shakthiprabha.

25th February 2005, 02:39 PM

scorpio and others,

Sorry was too busy..to reply :(...

I wrote used TSCII...plz user converters and just copy paste
to read :(

sorry

Shakthiprabha.

25th February 2005, 03:02 PM

I FAIL to understand why time and again, hindi and ENGLISH is being compared?

Does learning one language, PUT A STOP TO EXPERTISING ANOTHER ONE?

Learning hindi, is gonna make rest of the indians NEGLECT English?

By learning hindi, DO THEY MEAN PANDITHYA IN HINDI, that u need
to write shaairi(poetries) in hindi tommorrow?

Its just basic communicative lerning. By lerning that, engilsh is not gonna sink and die.

(I again repeat it need not be imposed, BUT learnt out of one's own will..)

I have reawd articles or heard opinions about many foreign nationls, (non english speaking foreigners) who face problems in india, when they decide to surf the country's breadth and length.

Poor guys, need to learn sign language (as we do not have a common language)...

jaiganes

25th February 2005, 03:11 PM

SP!
please go one page back and read the discussion there.

NOV

25th February 2005, 03:19 PM

jaiganes

25th February 2005, 03:26 PM

NOV wrote:

Tamil script is very much allowed here.

I understand that. In fact i would have participated with Thamizh fonts myself if the discussion was in Thamizh sections of the hub like Thamizh films and stuff like that. Since the discussion was taking place in miscellaneous section, where a considerable minority of non - thamizh hubbers are there, I thought that it was inappropriate to suddenly take a detour and discussion in thamizh. Thats all. :D

Digression

I have submitted an icon for emoticons in the announcement section, when can we expect that to be the part of emoticons?

End Digression

Shakthiprabha.

25th February 2005, 03:35 PM

ok jaiganesh, cinefan, other hubbers,

I AM EXTREMELY SORRY for posting in tamizh. Since I
read his blog in tamizh, I spontaneously wrote back
in tamizh.

Its my mistake. apologies.

Somebody had said about secularism. Jaiganesh right?

We call our mantra as "unity in diversity" and similar stuffs.
So why not LANGUAGES EH?

Secularism as for as I know, is leaving away RELIGIOUS indifferences. (Saying that what happens in india only
indian residents know better) That does not anyday, HOLDS
GOOD an argument to have multiple languages for a single
country.

Its not a problem, though, but if one person goes to another
state for his lively hood, he needs to READ the transporation
detaisl of local buses, government forms etc. (which every
state sticks to its own language). So DONT WE NEED A COMMON LANGUAGE?

Agreed that when its the case of ONE COMMON LANGUAGE it can
be anycommon language which is spoken in majority. Assuming
ENGLISH is spoken in majority, INDIAN-ENGLISH can be the
national language. Now HOW MANY OF U ARE FOR IT?

joe(Are u milton...:)...nice to know u still post), had written,
that "Ondavantha pidariyai oor pidari virattiyathu" which means
something similar to...

"A guest occupying and expeling the host"...something like
CAMEL AND THE TENT STORY.

Now, if we have english as common language this ondavantha pidari
wont hold good for that?

In that case WE SHOULD NOT HAVE A COMMON LANGUAGE. Then the
solution can be lil different...i.e.

which ever state one goes (even for 1 month posting) they
should be trained for basic communication in that REGIONAL
language (a mininum commn skills as a 3 days course)

how does that sound?

Wish I work with indian ministry :rotfl:

Hey ppl, I AM NOT SCREAMIGN OR FIGHTIGN HERE, just highlighting
some points with caps. And yes, I HAVE ALWAYS FELT,

arguing on issue, should never be TAKEN PERSONAL. :) thx.

joe

25th February 2005, 03:40 PM

//Since the discussion was taking place in miscellaneous section, where a considerable minority of non - thamizh hubbers are there, I thought that it was inappropriate to suddenly take a detour and discussion in thamizh. Thats all.//

I appreciate your attitude..Eventhough this forum participated mostly by tamil ,we still have a concern for non-tamils..If not all tamils,atleast majority of the tamils respect feelings of other people ..But havn't you noticed this good attitude being not shown by non-tamils.

We never expect or force others to learn our language ..But contradictory Tamils are branded as narrow minded by north indians and minority tamils ..

Hope you understand the difference.

joe

25th February 2005, 03:46 PM

//which ever state one goes (even for 1 month posting) they
should be trained for basic communication in that REGIONAL
language (a mininum commn skills as a 3 days course) //

I agree with you.
Same suggestion given by Mr.Sankarapandi in this link
http://lldasu.blogspot.com/2005/02/blog-post_24.html

Shakthiprabha.

25th February 2005, 04:07 PM

joe,

In case u happen to read "MARATHTHADI' group, I
have said the SUGGESTION some few months ago,
when the talk was about communication probs.

Too lazy to search for links hehe. Good suggestion
def.

jaiganes

25th February 2005, 04:16 PM

i am quite comfortable at chennai where tamil and english are written on the name boards and government communications, while I am all at sea in Bangalore where boards are only in kannada in buses.

Now SP wrote:

So DONT WE NEED A COMMON LANGUAGE?

yeah and that is English.
Except for japan, Germany and france, everywhere English is accepted as a language for transaction. Why think only in terms of short boundaries of one's nation? If one learns english, then he/she need not even bother abt learning any other language even in case of international travel, let alone travel to a place in India.

SP wrote:

Now, if we have english as common language this ondavantha pidari
wont hold good for that?

I say joe's line of argument was slightly emotional and taking things on that note and argument will be misleading.

As far as training in local language goes, it is easier told than executed. There are certain languages which are having 247 alphabets like Thamizh. Expecting someone from outside to master this in 30 days is too utopian I guess.

Again I wish to stress, the language we are discussing is link language and not national language. As far a snational language debate goes, it is dealt with and has been buried. India has 18 +regional languages and discrimination on the basis of language is a criminal offence. Be it northies intimidating southies with "Raashtra baasha" stuff or southies calling north indians as "marwadis" and other names. Both forms of harassment are violation of fundamental rights.

now SP ji!
I raised the point of secular only to enunciate the feeling of alienation and isolation that is evoked by linguistic jingoism and initimidation of linguistic minorities. It is the same as religious jingoism and intimidation of religious minorities. Both are perverted display of browbeating the distinct identities of the minorities involved. Attaching "nationalistic" colour to either of them is the same crime called by different names. period.
Jai India
Long live planet earth.

Raghu

25th February 2005, 06:50 PM

Dekho Kanuma

Learning Hindi is , well speaking is quite easy, just watch plenty of Bolly wood films :lol:

Tikke

Mad Max

25th February 2005, 06:59 PM

I have reawd articles or heard opinions about many foreign nationls, (non english speaking foreigners) who face problems in india, when they decide to surf the country's breadth and length.

Poor guys, need to learn sign language (as we do not have a common language)...

Ohhhh...I see. The non-English speaking foreigners from Romania, Estonia, Iceland and Norway know Hindi very well and find it disturbing that they cannot speak to all Indians in Hindi.

Yep, I see it now! (MM bangs his head with his hand).

Mad Max

25th February 2005, 07:05 PM

Dekho Kanuma

Learning Hindi is , well speaking is quite easy, just watch plenty of Bolly wood films :lol:

Tikke

You seem to miss the whole point of her post and this thread. This thread is not about learning Hindi. This thread is about the attitude of hindians towards the non-hindi speaking population of India.

.

Mad Max

25th February 2005, 07:13 PM

Now, if we have english as common language this ondavantha pidari
wont hold good for that?.

English is a global language. Learning Hindi will be good if you plan to settle in some place like bihar. In this global economy, learning Tamil will be better than learning Hindi as it is an international language spoken in many foreign countries where it is one of the official languages. But learning English will allow you to compete for jobs globally (except in the very few places where it is not spoken).

Period.

Now let's get back to the topic of this thread.

mellon

25th February 2005, 08:22 PM

You are posting in Thamizh because you think that majority are thamizh. By doing that you are proving to be no different from the northie guy who irritated you in the first place. so lets practice what we preach. shall we ?Pls dont be mistaken Jaiganes, Tamil script is very much allowed here.
There is no need for non Tamil community to feel alieanated, since nothing controvresial is allowed any way.
Old Forum Hub in fact used to be called Maiyam and had that name in Tamil too on the front pages.

Well, imho, in this thread the issues should be discussed in English. Because some honorable hubbers like Rohit, Shekhar, Nirosa etc may not undersand what is going on here but they may very well be curious to know about the tamil people's view and their defense. Thank you! :)

mellon

25th February 2005, 08:31 PM

I thought that it was inappropriate to suddenly take a detour and discussion in thamizh. Thats all. :D

Hi we feel alike in this issue :) 8)

Thiru

25th February 2005, 08:47 PM

coming back to the original issue, everyone is at ease when communicating in their language... In the US, I try to talk to a person in tamil if he's a tamilian.. It just gives us a sense of being closer when we talk in our language...So I wouldnt wholly blame the hindi speaking crowd to start a conversation in Hindi because thats where their comfort level is.. But at the same time, to impose someone into learning hindi or to pull down someone that he/she doesnt know the national language (as they call it), is ridiculous... I wouldnt say everyone does this, but I've come across many people (mainly from mumbai), who just think that Hindi is the language everyone should know in india and Bollywood is the only film industry in India :).. (just adding some fuel to the fire)..

Querida

25th February 2005, 10:02 PM

Yep, I see it now! (MM bangs his head with his hand).

would'nt banging your head against the wall prove your point better :P :banghead:

anyways MM i agree with your avatar...bulls should not be allowed in any case to lay eggs...

i see no problem in learning any language as an additional benefit...nor do i want to abandon my mother tongue but as Thiru already iterated it shouldn't be opposed on others....it's sad that quite a hybrid language such as english with all its exceptions to the rule grammar style come to be the common language...but atleast it allows for people to communicate well :D

Mad Max

25th February 2005, 10:25 PM

Yep, I see it now! (MM bangs his head with his hand).

would'nt banging your head against the wall prove your point better :P :banghead:

But that would hurt my head! :lol:

i see no problem in learning any language as an additional benefit...nor do i want to abandon my mother tongue but as Thiru already iterated it shouldn't be opposed on others....it's sad that quite a hybrid language such as english with all its exceptions to the rule grammar style come to be the common language...but atleast it allows for people to communicate well :D

Absolutely. If someone wants to learn hindi of their own volition there is no problem with it. But when northie idiots look down upon people who do not speak hindia nd question their patriotism, I lock-and-load and blast them to smithereens!

Mad Max

25th February 2005, 10:35 PM

Now, if we have english as common language this ondavantha pidari wont hold good for that?

Just because sanskrit/hindi is a senior ondavantha pidari, it does not mean that we need to trample upon the junior ondavantha pidari, i.e. English. :lol:

Senior ondavantha pidari is spoken only in a tiny little portion of a remote corner of the world, while the junior ondavantha pidari is a global language. If you want to keep in touch only with the laloos of this world, sure, senior ondavantha pidari is good enuff. But if you want to be in conection with the world, then learn the junior ondavantha pidari.

As long as these parochial sentiments rule India, we will always be backward. It is only because of English that the foreign countries are outsourcing their jobs to India. Thorough knowledge of English is the edge that India has over other countries competing for a piece of the outsourcing pie like China and Russia in the global economy. This is also the reason why the infotech industry is more concentrated in the south (Chennai & Bangalore) than in the north, because of the excellent English speaking qualities of the southern cities like Chennai.

Shakthiprabha.

25th February 2005, 10:38 PM

With so many against the opinion of having single national language, I as a powerless individual, I understand, land up wasting my time arguing.

Well I guess global recognition is already present with english. We have accepted it and it has come to stay. Lets stick to it. No
national language needed. After all in future, every person is gonna feel comfy with his flawless and proficient english communication.

Good luck and cheers! I hope here in india, AS INDIAN RESIDENTS, we find some states stick only to their regional language in displaying common pubic amenties. Let them too keep english as a common language. I have felt like an illeterate here while filling up gvt forms in kaarnataka. May be English would do.

ITs also interesting to note that th ere are mvoies based on INDIAN ENGLISH, like hybadi blues and the likes.

Good luck! cheers!

Shakthiprabha.

25th February 2005, 10:42 PM

My intellect says dont argue, BUT MY EGO SAYS ARGUE :(

//But if you want to be in conection with the world, then learn the junior ondavantha pidari. //

Now, why do everybody assume, learning senior pidari,
means DOTN LEARN JUNIOR PIDARI?

I argue for a national language, does it mean
I sit here without learning english, or I send
my daughter to learn in regioanl language medium schools.

Mad Max

25th February 2005, 10:46 PM

Now, why do everybody assume, learning senior pidari, means DOTN LEARN JUNIOR PIDARI?

Read my post properly.

If someone wants to learn hindi of their own volition there is no problem with it. But when northie idiots look down upon people who do not speak hindia nd question their patriotism, I lock-and-load and blast them to smithereens!

Was I saying "dont learn Hindi"?

Mad Max

25th February 2005, 10:48 PM

Mad Max

25th February 2005, 10:55 PM

In conclusion, I would like to say this:

Don't discriminate between the two competing ondavantha pidaris. We should not side with any ondavantha pidari based on seniority alone.

Judge by which ondavantha pidari will help India to compete in the global economy and become prosperous.

Do you think foreign companies are outsourcing their call centers to India for our knowledge of Pidari Senior? (unless of course we are talking about your Hindi speaking Norwegians and Koreans) :mrgreen:

Shakthiprabha.

25th February 2005, 11:05 PM

Mad Max

25th February 2005, 11:08 PM

If English is anathema to you, then you should not be posting in English here. Dont read any English books. Dont surf any sites that use English. Read only hindi books, surf only hindi sites and in general be happy. :) :mrgreen: :)

Hello .... can u please READ MY POSTS properly.

Did I say DONT READ ENGLISH OR STUDY ENGLISH.

:x

Yep. Right here. :mrgreen:

With so many against the opinion of having single national language, I as a powerless individual, I understand, land up wasting my time arguing.

Well I guess global recognition is already present with english. We have accepted it and it has come to stay. Lets stick to it. No
national language needed. After all in future, every person is gonna feel comfy with his flawless and proficient english communication.
...blah...blah..groan..moan..
Good luck! cheers!

Shakthiprabha.

25th February 2005, 11:09 PM

Do you think foreign companies are outsourcing their call centers to India for our knowledge of Pidari Senior? (unless of course we are talking about your Hindi speaking Norwegians and Koreans) :mrgreen:

I do not know any hindi speaking norwegians or koreans. But any
foreign nationals comign to india, ASSUME they need to know one language for mass commn in INDIA. Unfortunately or fortunately they understand its HINDI.

with utmost diff they learn a word or 2 for basic commn, only to be stupefied in most of the southern states, where they are not given proper repliES :huh: :evil:

Shakthiprabha.

25th February 2005, 11:14 PM

Mad Max

25th February 2005, 11:35 PM

I do not know any hindi speaking norwegians or koreans. But any
foreign nationals comign to india, ASSUME they need to know one language for mass commn in INDIA. Unfortunately or fortunately they understand its HINDI.

with utmost diff they learn a word or 2 for basic commn, only to be stupefied in most of the southern states, where they are not given proper repliES :huh: :evil:

No need to get mad at mad max. :mrgreen:

So they learn "two words" in Hindi? And they use it for communication with the whole of India?!?

These korean norwegians are crazy :lol: (picture MM as obelix tapping his finger on his head and saying "these romans are crazy") Hehehehehe! :) :mrgreen: :)

PS: Anyone here familiar with Asterix? :)

Shakthiprabha.

25th February 2005, 11:53 PM

//So they learn "two words" in Hindi? And they use it for communication with the whole of India?!? //

:) I mean, believe me, they do get some rough commn skill to manage the trip (just like how we learn basic german or whatever when we go to germany).... ok leave it :(

//These korean norwegians are crazy (picture MM as obelix tapping his finger on his head and saying "these romans are crazy") Hehehehehe!

:)

PS: Anyone here familiar with Asterix?

:) used to be my fav (no u would be surprised to learn
I learnt english version and NOT HINDI )

Shakthiprabha.

25th February 2005, 11:54 PM

// used to be my fav (no u would be surprised to learn
I learnt english version and NOT HINDI )//

I meant to say I studied the english version and not
the hindi

Shakthiprabha.

25th February 2005, 11:55 PM

//// used to be my fav (no u would be surprised to learn
I learnt english version and NOT HINDI )//

I meant to say I studied the english version and not
the hindi//

aaaaaaa! :( I meant to say, Ive READ the english verison
only and not the hindi :banghead:

mellon

25th February 2005, 11:59 PM

Querida,
I remember I have answered you previously..Sorry If I am wrong.

Yes,It is the famous court scene from 'Parasakthi'
I am not sure about the source..But you can see the same still here
http://tamil.cinesouth.com/specials/interviews/sivaji.shtml

Thanks, Joe. I will make sure Q gets your prompt response this time :)

Mad Max

26th February 2005, 12:01 AM

Shak,

Does this mean we are friends and you are not mad at me any more? :mrgreen:

Anyway, say hi to our norwegio-korean "2 hindi words" speaking friends (using 2 words only in Hindi of course :) ).

Take care.

Mad Max

26th February 2005, 12:14 AM

So Kannuma,

You have received a lot of replies on your question. What is your take on this issue?

Shakthiprabha.

26th February 2005, 12:19 AM

//Does this mean we are friends and you are not mad at me any more? //

Well...well that depends on what that green icon means. I hope
u are not picking on me :(. Anyway it was fun arguing with u (towards the end esp) :)

//Anyway, say hi to our norwegio-korean hindi speaking friends (using 2 words only in Hindi of course ). //

:lol:

//Heyyy....R U trying to imitate Urme? //

Hey I dont know this urme. I dont like any kinda
problems with anyone plzzzzzzz :(. Thats the
reason i compromise a lot :( .

:) may be urme would feel irate that u compared
me with her. She may be superior. LEAVE ME plz
out of this :D

//>> Forget the first correction to the last correction I made. The most recent correction is the correct correction to the older correction.

//

hehe :lol: I actually make hell a lot of mistakes during
postings cause i type like wind and post immy without thinking to chekc. So spelloz, corrections, logical errors, what not!

Always regret after i post, when I read the blunders which I had committed. :(

good luck! and Take care too :)

Mad Max

26th February 2005, 12:30 AM

Shakthiprabha.

26th February 2005, 12:42 AM

//Seriously, I do mean it. I hope we can be friends.//

:)

Sure I dont find any prob :)
Looking forward to argue with u in some other thread too :P

hmm...

May be about how to teach little more than 2 words TO OUR
NORWEGIAN friends :D ...justkidding ..

Mad Max

26th February 2005, 12:47 AM

May be about how to teach little more than 2 words TO OUR NORWEGIAN friends :D ...justkidding ..

Correction: It should be "Hindi speaking Norwegio-Korean friends"
:) :mrgreen: :)

jaiganes

28th February 2005, 09:13 AM

Shakthi!
After going through thoroughly the posts you have made for the past two days, I believe you are confused about certain things. Let me try to clear things up for you .
1. nobody here is saying "Please don't learn Hindi". Infact everyone here is reflecting the spirit of Q who is a master of many languages.
2. What we disagree is mandatory learning of a language to exude or identify with a 'pan national identity'. Now I have rarely come across any foreigner who says 'language X' is my national language. I have always heard them saying, 'languages spoken in my country are x, y, z and x is spoken by majority of the population'. Now there is no question of putting any single language on a pedestal and saying that it is THE National language over there. Nor there is a statement by people of the majority language saying 'others' whould also learn it to prove their patriotism.
3. Now contrast the statement 3 with situation in India. The difference slaps in your face hard. Doesn't it. Not only is there an effort to put hindi on a pedestal, there is also 'expert comments' by someone saying that everyone learning hindi would make our country prosperous. Was there any economic survey done which showed that every year we are losing x million dollars due to lack of "Single National Language"? If so let them make it public, we can suspend our discussion till we finish reading it and analysing it.
4. Naturally if one says language 'x' is national language, then the question that naturally pops up is 'WHY?'. Why language x and why not language y? Then all merits will be taken up for discussion. This will lead only to a confusion as we have as many languages as there are states or more than that. So getting into that discussion is an exercise in futility and keeping with the line of argument of point 3 we say, "ok, if we have to learn a common language we see that current educational and employment trends make it important for us to also learn English , so let us make it the language common so that we can kill two birds in one stone". It is that simple . It is acceptable to our common sense and it is not hurting our sentiments either.
5. Considering the argument that English is totally alien to us, frankly Hindi is alien to a manipuri , mizo or a naga in the same way as English is to a haryanvi or Bihari. So that argument falls on its single feet.

Shakthi! I implore you to seriously consider these points before resorting to argue. Also try to make a distinction between political parties in TN who say 'long live language x and down with language y' and hubbers here as most of us know both language x and y, but simply are against tying the knowledge of one language to the representative status of belonging, the whole concept of which is ridiculous, fascist and is nothing but majoritarianism in matters which are ideally consensus based.

Shekhar

28th February 2005, 09:34 AM

JG,

You said it :!:

a.ratchasi

28th February 2005, 09:34 AM

You have put up valid comments, JG.

blahblah

28th February 2005, 04:56 PM

Why don't we stop this language discussions here?This is necessarily an emotional issue and no one is going to change their attitude.

I have never started a language topic,but was forced to defend my ideas when I thought people are fast coming conclusions like,'no one opposes Hindi except some Tamils in Tamilnadu etc'.

I myself will not change my attitude and after discussions ,or rather arguments on this forum,I get a feeling that my stand has hardened.So if it is not doing any good in bringing people together,why not stop all language threads? :roll:

Shakthiprabha.

1st March 2005, 02:32 PM

Jaiganesh JIIII,

//1. nobody here is saying "Please don't learn Hindi". Infact everyone here is reflecting the spirit of Q who is a master of many languages. //

I understand that STRAIGHT AND CLEAR, even before u quoted it :).

//Now I have rarely come across any foreigner who says 'language X' is my national language. I have always heard them saying, 'languages spoken in my country are x, y, z and x is spoken by majority of the population'.//

how many nationals say, X,Y,Z,A,B,C,D, and official languages TALLY UP TO 18. :)

Now that should not matter at all, Like u said, IF WE GO AROUND SAYING..

X,Y,Z...COUNT TILL 18..... SPOKEN in india, and HINDI is spoken by majority population.

No probs lets not call it national language. BUT THE FACT IS ITS
SPOKEN BY MAJORITY.

jUST have a look at it all of u...

http://www.censusindia.net/language.html

:)

Now, no doubt about the PERCENTAGE DIFF,

//Now there is no question of putting any single language on a pedestal and saying that it is THE National language over there. Nor there is a statement by people of the majority language saying 'others' whould also learn it to prove their patriotism. //

I ALSO disagreed the factor of patriotism tied up with ANY language. So there is no qrgument here.

REG NATIONal language...lets call it majority language.

So I again repeat I ALSO DISAGREED IT SHOULD BE IMPOSED.

But i feel, as a people of single nation, ITS NOTHING WRONG,
in leraning a language spoken by the MAJORITY of the ppl
living in ur country?!?!

//"ok, if we have to learn a common language we see that current educational and employment trends make it important for us to also learn English , so let us make it the language common so that we can kill two birds in one stone". //

English is SECOND LARGEST spoken in india. May be when it
becomes SINGLE LARGest IT MAKES sense to announce that
as a common language (note that i DID NOT MENTION national
language)

// Considering the argument that English is totally alien to us, frankly Hindi is alien to a manipuri , mizo or a naga in the same way as English is to a haryanvi or Bihari. So that argument falls on its single feet. //

I do not know if ITS RIGHT TO talk about alienating LANGUAGES based on THE NATION U ARE IN?

Last but not least let me put these points VERY CLEAR FOR U.

1. I AM not i repeat NOT AT ALL confused (do not worry)
2. I NEVER SAID I LIKE HINDI BEING IMPOSED (UNDERLINE IMPOSED)
3. I just emphasised on the fact since its the highly spoken
language (as of now) in india, why NOT (UNDERLINE 'WHY NOT') try
learning the BASICS of the same.
4. I never am any fanatic for any kinda religion, language, caste, creed, or even a flow of argument.

I am right, for myself
So are u, for urself.

Take it from me, NO x person CAN CHANGE y person BY ARGUING.
I know most ppl who oppose hindi , OPPOSE IT BECAUSE OF FANATISM.(I did nto include all, i just said MOST PPL)

I participated in this thread, JUST TO VIEW My opinions. If ANYDAY, someone counts on SHAKTHIPRABHA, for arguing fiercely
till she falls off, or till opposite party agrees, they are mistaken.

That does nto mean I GIVE UP. I argue or put my points 2 to 3 times, then gracefully walk away. PERIOD.

Tht means I RESPECT UR VIEWS, AND expect others to respect mine too.

All these above said justifications though true, ON A LIGHTER NOTE, WAS SAID BECAUSE..........I DONT HAVE ANYONE TO SUPPORT ME:(....AND HENCE KINDA lost on HOW TO ARGUE :huh:

Cheers :)

a.ratchasi

1st March 2005, 02:43 PM

SP, just a sincere request, can you please 'quote' like everybody else in the hub?

jaiganes

1st March 2005, 02:44 PM

Well then, with no one else having anything else to contribute and having heard everyone else's comments, I request moderators to archive this thread and free up some web space for the hub. What d yall say?

blahblah

1st March 2005, 02:55 PM

Again guys,why not leave it here?

There is no discussion going on here.There never was on any language thread.It was all arguments and we will never reach a consensus.I do not voice out my concerns or opinions here because I believe it will only stretch the life of this thread which I believe unhealthy for the hub.

I have expressed my opinion and many others theirs but it is the same things that keep coming out.Was there anything new said on any of these language threads?Keep repeating the same stupid stuff for how long?Can we agree on leaving language issues to individual choice? :x

Show me one person who changed sides due to these threads[I mean all language threads] and I will be glad to continue with my opinions too,read arguments. :roll:

Or should I leave the name 'blahblah' for you guys?
:evil:

Shakthiprabha.

1st March 2005, 02:56 PM

//SP, just a sincere request, can you please 'quote' like everybody else in the hub?//

Just sheer laziness... :(...
sorry bout that. One last time bear that that quoting.

to the moderators,

viewing full thread, quoting or reading TAKES LOGN TIME, and is so complicated esp with avtars and stuffs. Can some thing be done bout it? Esp when we press the down or up arrow button, it kinda gets half reloaded, hence takes time to even scroll up or down.

a.ratchasi

1st March 2005, 03:00 PM

:wink:, SP.

geno

5th March 2005, 05:16 AM

Excellent work! all you folks out there! :)

This "hindhi imposition" issue is almost one of the very favorite staple of discussion in the old forum too!

I remember all the old folks Madurai veeran, Kumar, sugrutha, Srini, Ravi sundaram, Robin, anu, and Rohit too giving great "thesis" of this vexed issue of Hindhi unilateralism.

geno

5th March 2005, 05:17 AM

Jaiganes,

So, much has been discussed about this issue. I would like to make a small point with respect to this part of your post above :

Also try to make a distinction between political parties in TN who say 'long live language x and down with language y' and hubbers here as most of us know both language x and y, but simply are against tying the knowledge of one language to the representative status of belonging, the whole concept of which is ridiculous, fascist and is nothing but majoritarianism in matters which are ideally consensus based.

I don't know what you are referring to as the actions of "Political parties of TN" - but let me put some things in perspective.......

geno

5th March 2005, 05:19 AM

Article #1

"Swaminathan S. Anklesaria Aiyar" - a well-known Economist and Policy analyst in india - who frequently writes in "Economic times" and also "The times of India" - has written an article titled "How English survived in India" - for "The Times of India", on March 14,2004 :

Source :

http://www.swaminomics.org/articles/20040314_how_english_survived.htm

Article #2

Ramachandra Guha - as you might have known is a well-known columnist. He has authored the next 2 articles.

"Hindhi against India"

Source:

http://www.hindu.com/thehindu/mag/2005/01/16/stories/2005011600260300.htm

Article #3

"Hindhi chauvinism"

Source:

http://www.hindu.com/thehindu/mag/2004/01/18/stories/2004011800040300.htm

I'm giving these info purely for the purpose of putting certain things in the right perspective. (sorry for splitting of posts - the server did not accept longish posts)

hehehewalrus

5th March 2005, 05:35 AM

geno

5th March 2005, 05:54 AM

walrus,

Your post contains the answer to the seeming "riddle" which it seeks
to solve! :)

For a nation as diverse as ours there is bound to be diverse views. I accept that.

There were certain things - which were needed to be done and certain paths which were needed to be taken, and we took it :)

There are also hordes of people who blame Jawaharlal Nehru (whom i personally love and adore) - to be the chief cause for all the "Socialist hurdles" and alleged "non development" - but the truth is - without Nehru there would have been no "India"! period!.

All of us did not get what we wanted but thats how this system would work, as we are still a very young "nation" at 57 years or so.

Federalism and linguistic rights are interconnected. The "Linguistic reorgainisation act 1956" has Clearly recognized our nation's "linguistic federalistic" nature.

Each of the lingusitic ethnic state has complete rights to protect, propagate its language in all spheres.

It is not as though there wasn't any "hindhi learning" opportunities in Thamizh nadu; it was there right thru all these years.

By stopping the Hindhi Juggernaut - in a way thamizhnadu can take the credit for ensuring true linguistic federalism in india.

Political Diatribes are bound to happen in such sensitive issues!

Perhaps those people should be shown the fact that even Rajaji was one of the signotaries of the "anti-hindhi imposition" memoranda drawn up by the dravidian movement.

Also read about the "riposte" that E.K. Nayanar gave Mulayam singh Yadav - by replying to his "hindhi" letter in Malayalam!!! :lol: (in one of Guha's article i provided above)

I'd have loved to watch the stunned Mulayam trying to read the Malayalam letter!!! :rotfl:

hehehewalrus

5th March 2005, 05:57 AM

geno,
it is not that the people who said so were supporters of Rajaji or EFG.

geno

5th March 2005, 06:13 AM

walrus,

I assumed that people would understand that the entire political spectrum of thamizhnadu agreed with the stand of the dravidian movement - except a group of really "archaic congressmen" lead by Bhaktavatsalam.

Even Kamaraj was not with the strident "pro hindhi" stand which was sought to be projected by Bhaktavatsalam during that fateful period of 1965-66. (Kamaraj had already moved to delhi as Leader of teh AICC after the death of Nehru).

I mentioned Rajaji to mean that even an otherwise diametrically opposite political parties(Rajaji's swathanthira did not support dravidian movement's socio-political idealogies, but it was simply maintaining an anti-congress line in TN then) - were in agreement with the line of the dravidian movement in this issue.

It left just one section of the congress party lead by bhakatavatsalam which was the ruling "faction" in TN - to lead the "hindhi imperialist agenda".

The whole political climate of TN was against the Jan. 1965 deadline issued by the then central govt of L.B.Shastri.

It was an universally and spontaneously supported political movement - spearheaded by the dravidian parties.

Individuals resenting it - must understand that all Major political parties of the era - except the ruling congress "faction" and ofcourse some conservative elements represented in miniscule minority of a wafer thin Jan sangh - stood against Hindhi imposition, and they were willing to be lead by the dravidian movement.

Its an historical socio-political event.

Those wishing to "Re-do" it can call up Spielberg and ask for his "back to the future" machine and have a go at it! :lol:

hehehewalrus

5th March 2005, 06:57 AM

geno, i am talking about a practical issue and you are writing a historical essay now. I guess the guys who started this thread wanted to discuss the practical issues only.

How many tamilians visiting outside of India feel letdown by their govt back home?
99.9% of them!!

Have you any idea how many tamils are cheated lock, stock and barrel by the northie rickshawallahs/shopkeepers due to their not knowing Hindi? They are/having been sitting ducks for the rapacious northies! :lol2: :lol2: :lol2: "tamil patriotism, my foot!" is what they've often said.

Tit for tat - so many autowallas in chennai pretend not knowing Hindi to a non-tamil and take him for a ride. Not that they need language as a tool to fleece :D

I know several tamilians in bangalore who fervently cursed their politicians during Cauvery judgement/Rajkumar kidnapping phase as they desperately needed to save their skin in a land suddenly turned antagonistic. While Kannadigas and mallus in Blr knew a smattering of tamil, the tams knew next to nothing besides their mother tongue and english.

I am sure that is precisely what pro-Hindi-ites in this thread are saying.

geno

5th March 2005, 10:21 AM

walrus,

I was pointing out the history behind this vexed language issue - when i wished to reply to a specific part of Jaiganes' previous post!

naduvula poonthu ennai kalAikka pAthinga!! :lol: nAn antha context-la bathil sonnA - udanE "essay"-nu nakkal vidaringa!! :lol:

I think there are two different things which require to be clearly demarcated :

1. Any Indian travelling to any other part of india - is supposed to be prepared to "deal with" / "utilise" - the regional language AND/OR English, in order to be able to "survive" there.

2. Any indian travelling to any other part of India need to KNOW "Hindhi" AND/OR that region's language

It is with the second scenario that we have monumental problems with and not the First scenario.

I agree that thamizhars should be willing to learn the "regional language" - wherever they visit AND/OR English, as may be the case (Note the order)

geno

5th March 2005, 10:22 AM

* Only 8 States in india has a majority Hindhi speaking populace in india out of the almost 30 states!!

* Only about 22% of the Indian Population "use" hindhi as their mother tongue/major communication language in india. (The rest of the Hindhi "knowing" people not necessarily know to read or write in hindhi, and have known to speak hindhi "somewhat" apart from their mother tongues.

* These are the official national languages of india :

Assamese
Bengali
Bodo
Dogri
Gujarati
Hindi
Kannada
Kashmiri
Konkani
Maithili
Malayalam
Manipuri
Marathi
Nepali
Oriya
Punjabi
Sanskrit
Santhali
Sindhi
Tamil
Telugu
Urdu

- and many of these languages are chiefly spoken, in their respective regions. They all have their own vibrant cultures which is expressed and practiced thru their mother tomgues (except sanskrit which is not a spoken language)

geno

5th March 2005, 10:27 AM

* North eastern states have an acrimonious situation now precisely due to this kind of "false propaganda" regarding Hindhi - that you need to know to it to survive in india!!

Too bad the Hindhi wallahs can't do anything about the gun-toting NSCN and bodo and other groups!!! They frequently ban Hindhi movies and telecasts in Hindhi in their region!

Infact the ultimate mother of "Hindhi pracharak" kumbal of the sangh parivar govt. - went to the extent of holding marathon 7 hours of "Peace talks" with the NSCN leader "Muivah" in Japan during 2002-03!!!

geno

5th March 2005, 10:27 AM

* Nobody's barring anyone from learning any language - but only defending aganinst forcibly thrusting a language as a "Must-do" for survival in india - which is antagonises the constitutional provisions and the Linguistic states reorganisations act 1956 of the constitution.

* The "crux" of the problem is propping up "Hindhi" which is a "Major" language in just 8 of the indian states - and trying to "crown" it as the "King of all languages" which is a fraudulent claim.

* FYI - gujarathis and marathis have always felt oppressed by the onslaught of hindhi deteriorating their mother tongues - marathi and gujarathi - but as they never did anything about that - those languages have been completely trampled upon in cultural and social spheres.

Please try and gather more info on this regard and you would know. :-)

The "Bangalore problem" is unique one - so i'll post it separately. :)

blahblah

5th March 2005, 11:00 AM

Walrus,The Bangalore problem is quite different from the language issue.If the Tamizhars in Bangalore are facing some hostility it is due to certain sensitive issues involved.

1.The Kavery problem where even those who are not affected by it try to sensationalise the issue.

2.The Rajkumar kidnapping,when Veerappan chose to take advantage of the existing rift between the two states by portraying himself as a Tamil Nationalist and demanding that the statue of 'Thiruvalluvar' be installed infront of the Vidhan Soudha.He was just trying to play the Saviour of Tamil culture inorder to make sure that the two states never come together to hunt him down.

It is wrong to assume that the Tamilians would have been in a better position if they spoke either Kannada or Hindi.

indian_tamil

6th March 2005, 06:18 AM

*

* These are the official national languages of india :
Assamese
Bengali
Bodo
Dogri
Gujarati
Hindi
Kannada
Kashmiri
Konkani
Maithili
Malayalam
Manipuri
Marathi
Nepali
Oriya
Punjabi
Sanskrit
Santhali
Sindhi
Tamil
Telugu
Urdu

Just to settle this myth once and all all, which keeps trotting up in various fora that there are many official indian languages.
Here is an excerpt from the Constitution of India

THE CONSTITUTION OF INDIA
[...]
PART XVII
OFFICIAL LANGUAGE
CHAPTER I.- LANGUAGE OF THE UNION

343. Official language of the Union.

The official language of the Union shall be Hindi in
Devanagari script. . . .

End of excerpt

geno

6th March 2005, 04:23 PM

That India has many "National Languages" is not a "Myth"!

Our "distant friend" here seems to have ignored this particular post of mine previously :

http://forumhub.lunarpages.com/hub/posting.php?mode=quote&p=79704

I ask him to go thru this particular link :

http://www.hindu.com/thehindu/mag/2004/01/18/stories/2004011800040300.htm

The last 2 paragraphs of that column im reproducing here :

The Assembly finally arrived at a compromise; that "the official language of the Union shall be Hindi in the Devanagari script"; but for "15 years from the commencement of the Constitution, the English language shall continue to be used for all the official purposes of the Union for which it was being used immediately before such commencement". Till 1965, at any rate, the proceedings of the courts, the services, and the all-India bureaucracy would be conducted in English.

In 1965, attempts were made to introduce Hindi by force, sparking widespread protests in Tamil Nadu. In 1967, the Dravida Munnetra Kazhagam (DMK) rode to power in Tamil Nadu on the back of these protests. Wisely, the Union Government extended the use of English in inter-State communication. But from time to time, the chauvinists of Hindi try to press their case. In his previous term as Chief Minister of Uttar Pradesh, Mulayam Singh Yadav wrote a letter in his language to the Chief Minister of Kerala, E.K. Nayanar. Mr. Nayanar replied in his language. It was a brilliant riposte: for while Hindi was not widely spoken in Thiruvanthapuram, in Lucknow, Malayalam was not known at all.

And if our "distant friend" has any more queries he can address them to Ramachandra guha - the author of that article.

Ramachandra Guha,as we all know, is a historian and writer based in Bangalore.

Reach him at ramguha@vsnl.com

Try "Reading" stuff completely before jumping into the arena! :lol:

indian_tamil

6th March 2005, 08:42 PM

mack

6th March 2005, 09:49 PM

hey guys... english and hindi are official languages.
the other notified languages are national languages.
hindi is not a national language.
note the differences in the terminology used.

indian_tamil

6th March 2005, 11:48 PM

mack,
you are right. I stand corrected. There is a subtle difference between national language and official language. India has no national language, but one official language - hindi.

geno

7th March 2005, 03:00 AM

oops!!! The very mention of D-M-K has pushed our "paper-sword warrior" into a frenzied mad state!!! :rotfl:

"Parliament", "Amendments" - ellAm iruppathai ivaru mRanthu vittAr pOla!!!!

I will state it once again!

READ my first post in this thread carefully again!

Specifically go thru that particular link i had earlier highlighted; the one where Ramachandra Guha traces the history of the formulation of Official communication language policy of india, by the
"Constituent Assembly" debates thru the late 1940s.

In that column the Constitutional provision regarding the official language business, has been clearly quoted - in the beginning itself :

" The Assembly finally arrived at a compromise; that "the official language of the Union shall be Hindi in the Devanagari script"; but for "15 years from the commencement of the Constitution, the English language shall continue to be used for all the official purposes of the Union for which it was being used immediately before such commencement".

Till 1965, at any rate, the proceedings of the courts, the services, and the all-India bureaucracy would be conducted in English. "

And I quote from the Constitutional provisions - Article 343 - (as framed in 1950) here again :

{begin-quote}

PART XVII
OFFICIAL LANGUAGE
CHAPTER I.- LANGUAGE OF THE UNION

343. Official language of the Union.

The official language of the Union shall be Hindi in Devanagari script. The form of numerals to be used for the official purposes of the Union shall be the international form of Indian numerals.

Notwithstanding anything in clause (1), for a period of fifteen years from the commencement of this Constitution, the English language shall continue to be used for all the official purposes of the Union for which it was being used immediately before such commencement: .......

{end-quote}

Source : http://indiacode.nic.in/coiweb/fullact1.asp?tfnm=00%20440
( A govt. of India website)

So EVEN in 1950, "Hindhi" was NOT specified as THE only official language of the Indian union.

English shall hold an equal official status until 1965! That is so very obvious! :rotfl:

Why would our "Distant friend" think that "selective" quoting from the 1950 constitutional provision would pass of as truth here; we all can see pretty clearly the duplicity of your attempt!

Thank you! :lol:

Both Swaminathan's and Ramachandra Guha's article - specify that after the initial 15 years' period given for English as the offcial language along with Hindhi - there was a "conspiracy" by the Hindhi
fanatics to forcibly impose hindhi on the whole of india - unjustifiably and with a blind sense of purpose, which was thoroughly defeated - principally due to the tireless efforts of the dravidian movement which effectively resisted that move.

Even 2 years PRIOR to the end of the first 15 years official langugae status for english - in 1963 - this attempt to "do away" with english was started in a high-handed manner by some elements within the ruling congress party, Socialists like Ram manohar lohia and by the Jan sangh.

But due to the spirited protests presented against that kind of move, in the parliament - primarily by Annadurai - the DMK leader - in the floor of the house(he was an MP at that time), Jawaharlal
Nehru - PERSONALLY stood up and ASSURED in the floor of the House - that English would continue to hold the official language status as long as the majority non-hindhi speaking people of
Indian Union wanted it to continue that way.

That was coz Nehru was a very wise man and a visionary, who was not blinded by the archaic and feudalistic minded northies!

Indian_tamil has wilfully MISREPRESENTED a LIE as some kind of truth - about even the initial constitutional provision!!!

Hindhi was NOT THE only official language of indian union - even between January 1950 (when the indian constitution came into effect) and January 1965, and most "national communication" business were conducted in English and ALL businesses of state level courts were conducted purely in English!!!

Those 3 articles that i had earlier given, trace the happenings immediately before and during that fateful "end-period" of the initial 15 years, i.e around January 1965.

In 1965, When the Lal Bahadur Shastri's govt. INSPITE of Nehru's earlier promises - announced that - there would be no continuation of english as the official language(apart from Hindhi) after
1965, the whole political climate in Tamilnadu got heated up and massive and spontaneous protests were organized against the draconian move, spearheaded by the DMK.

After that police shootout in Madurai, on the "Mozhip-pOr" activists - ordered by the Bhaktavatsalam's govt., which resulted in the killing of HUNDREDS of students and other protestors, Shastri intervened and acceded defeat in this sensitive issue and took back the
"imposition of hindhi" as the sole official and educational language.

The official languages Act was amended to suit the federalistic and diverse nature of the Indian union, and English along with Hindhi would be "official communication languages" for the administrative purposes.

But all languages specified in the 8th Schedule of the constitution would qualify for "communications" between Central govt. and state!

Here is the link to the amended Official Languages Act ( 1967-68 ):

http://rajbhasha.nic.in/dolacteng.htm

The MOST interesting thing to note about in the official (Communication) Languages act - is that the implementation of the official language policy is implemeted through the official languages rules (1976) - which clearly demarcates 3 different region's of india - for which 3 "distinct" language policies were formulated.

See it here : http://rajbhasha.nic.in/dolruleseng.htm

(A govt. of India website!)

Region A : States of Bihar, Haryana, Himachal Pradesh, Madhya Pradesh, Rajasthan and Uttar Pradesh and the Union Territories of Delhi and Andaman and Nicobar Islands;

Region B : States of Gujarat, Maharashtra and Punjab and the Union Territory of Chandigarh ;

Region C : All other States and the Union Territories other than those referred to in Region A and Region B

ONLY those states and union territories which falls under the REGION A were supposed to have official communications compulsorily ONLY in Hindi.

EVEN Region B ( which constitutes Gujarat, Punjab, Maharashtra ) aren't included in the "Hindhi-must" list!!! (hindhi CAN'T be forced on them as official communication or education
language!) :rotfl:

Region C can continue to have official comunications in English as long as the people of the region wanted.

This is the TRUTH about the official COMMUNICATION language policy of the Indian union :lol:

Hey even the "cow-belt" states hate hindh imposition!!! and look at the parivar guys having their foot in their mouth!!!!!!! :rotfl:

geno

7th March 2005, 03:12 AM

Now let us see about the "Official National Languages" list which the parivar-brainwashed confused desi is talking about!

The list of "Official National Languages" are mentioned in the Eighth Schedule of the constitution

This is the OFFICIAL Govt. OF India web-site which has the list of "Official National Languages":

http://indiacode.nic.in/coiweb/fullact1.asp?tfnm=00%20512

(download the 8th schedule of the Indian Constitution - which specifies the list of "Official National Languages")

Download it and you need PDF reader to read.

If you dont know what is "Eighth Schedule" - it represents the list of Languages - which the Indian Union officially recognizes as the "National languages" - which can be used for OFFICIAL
communication purposes even for the CITIZEN with the center.

(which means i can write a letter in "Thamizh", regarding any grievances, complaints, requests, govt. issues and send it to say the PM office - and it WILL be acted upon as a legally valid document, without the govt. of india asking me to give either a Hindhi or English translation to it! - but this " Official National language" status has been given to only about 22 of the indian languages till now, including Hindhi, whereas India has an estimated 100s of languages and dialects)

Our "distant friend" usually froths in the mouth whenever he sees the word - D-M-K anywhere!

That is the reason why he has gone nuts without either making an effort to "READ" my earlier posts and the links or checking up the FACTS!

Furthermore, he has no idea about the existence of something called the Parliament, and the Constitutional AMENDMENTS that it can make!! :lol:

Wake up "Mr. Bah"!!

Constitution hasn't been stagnant since 1950, it has gone through almost a HUNDRED amendments!!!

Official languages act has been amended many times as are the official language rules!

Indian_tamil must APOLOGIZE for presenting a damn lie as a constitutional fact!
(Hey after all - i am not asking you to go to a police station to press your thumb impression nah?!!!! :rotfl: )

The Hub people would deserve that from him - wont they?!! :lol:

P.S. :

"How did English Survive in India?!!!!!!!!!!"

Thanks to Anna and the DMK!!! :lol:

yeah right!!!!! :thumbsup:

geno

7th March 2005, 04:18 AM

hey guys... english and hindi are official languages.
one small correction :

"english and hindi are the primary official COMMUNICATION Languages for administrative purposes of the central govt"

But other "National languages" notified in the 8th Schedule CAN be used for official communication of a State with the center, depending upon providing an accompanying english translation to it.

Thanks for pointing out the Constitutional Truth mack! :D

the other notified languages are national languages.
Again thanx! :D

hindi is not a national language.
A small correction there mack! Hindi is on the list of "Official National Languages" notified in the eighth Schedule of the constitution!

But what you are actually trying to imply is obvious and tru - Hindi is NEITHER the only Official communication Language NOR the only National language recognized by the Constitution of india!! :D

India has no national language, but one official language - hindi

:banghead:

"innum ethanai kAlamthAN emARRuvAr intha nAttilE?
sontha nAttilE? nam nAttilE?!!" :lol:

[tscii:8ff16aee58]
"§À¡¼¡ §À¡¼¡ Òñ½¡ìÌ §À¡¼¡§¾ ¾ôÒì¸½ìÌ!
ÀÄ ¸¢ÚìÌ ¯ÉìÌ þÕìÌ! þô§À¡ ±ñ½¡§¾ ÁÉì¸½ìÌ! " :lol:
[/tscii:8ff16aee58]

Shekhar

7th March 2005, 09:54 AM

bah!!
I quoted what is there in our constitution. Can you post here the relevant section of our constitution which shows that other indian languages are also official national languages as you claimed. Be ready to back your claim with excerpts from the constituion or just shut up.

indian_tamil,

I advise you to watch your language on the hub, and keep the decorum of the thread. Other wise you not only get more than what you had asked for, but also vitiate the discussion.
You can always express your views strongly without resorting to indecency.

jaiganes

7th March 2005, 09:58 AM

geno!
welcome back to the discussion. certainly there were some heated discussions early on. But your entry has been late and most of those who discussed this topic have left it and already couple of other threads in the history and culture section have been locked due to the heat generated. What I would suggest is to continue this discussion off the hub in emails. My email is on the profile and I would be more than willing to discuss this issue further. Anyway, to initiate a email, I would like you to kindly not what I had earlier mentioned. The politicians of TN did not spontaneously jump on the issue of hindi imposition. While all along it had been a controversial topic leading to non-violent protests, politicians of TN hyped up the emotion to the level of suicide by certain youth. Now this was fully encouraged by DMK. the death of those young misguided people was glorified further and DMK politicians seizing the lead did show protests like lying down before train and et al. Now all scope of logical arguments went out of the window and protectors of Thamizh had become protectors of English by adopting "Hindi down down" slogan. The act of being so narrowminded and centred around one's own state meant that the case against imposition of Hindhi was lost in rest of the country. Thamizh nadu became an aberration, a state which was always isolated. It proved to be good and bad in many ways. I still hold that the argument for hindhi at that time was very weak and with more stable heads on shoulders, we could have scored even more impressive gain than just tarring a few name boards and a link language status to English. The isolation also meant that it is the state government of Thamizh nadu which has to provide peanut allowance to thamizh development. Contrast this to Central government's financial backing which is huge. The benefits that we could have achieved by not over sensationalising this issue far outweigh the gains of sensationalisation of language issue by DMK. India wide TN got a secessionist label, which politicians of the north used further to their advantage in pushing hindhi down the throat of non hindhi speakers elsewhere in the country. I would still ask moderators to shut down this thread and appeal to geno, blahblah, walrus and indian_tamil to have the discussion on email as it will certainly get too hot for this hub.

Badri

7th March 2005, 10:07 AM

I would still ask moderators to shut down this thread

I agree with JG...this and what, about five other threads of a similar strain?

Almost every thread on language has begun to take on separatist tendencies!!

jaiganes

7th March 2005, 10:15 AM

geno!
I went back and reread the posts and I understand that my last reply would be totally misconstrued as a complete anti DMK post. I would like add that though the cause for which the agitations were launched were genuine, the sensationalism in the protests mulled many long term points which could have helped regional languages to flourish instead of being allowed to just exist by the Indian constitution. Ideally we should have been in a position where any citizen goes to any govt. office anywhere in this great country and gets to take a fom in any of the national language to transact with the government. This is the truest spirit of integrity and unity in diversity. Sadly we have missed the bus on this issue.
This thread is not about the history of anti-hindhi struggles and it is all about the widespread notion that knowing hindhi is a sign of your patriotism and a symbol of one's nationhood. That point has been thoroughly discussed and the argument against such ultra linguist forces has been won (atleast in this forum). So as I said earlier let us simply archive this thread and let it have a decent closure instead of reopening an acrimonious pissing contest. I implore the moderators again to lock and archive this thread sooner.

blahblah

7th March 2005, 11:40 AM

India wide TN got a secessionist label, which politicians of the north used further to their advantage in pushing hindhi down the throat of non hindhi speakers elsewhere in the country. I would still ask moderators to shut down this thread and appeal to geno, blahblah, walrus and indian_tamil to have the discussion on email as it will certainly get too hot for this hub.
JG,I agreewith you.
I resorted to strong language,as thread after thread there was a concious effort to malign and degrade anything South Indian.There were many threads opened only for this purpose.Why should we keep mum when the other side resort to name calling and distort facts to suit them?

However,I suggested far back in this thread that all the language threads be banned.This will stop some limguistic fanatics who have no other interests and participate only in these threads.

jaiganes

7th March 2005, 11:52 AM

blahblah wrote:

This will stop some limguistic fanatics who have no other interests and participate only in these threads.
Knowing the intentions of these people clearly, It is also not very difficult to find out why they are so desperate. It is because they have to migrate and work under/with the same people of whom they had been used to making fun of as "Madrasi". Anyway, still I appeal to moderators to archive this thread, but keep it sticky to read as there has been some good issues raised and several pertinent questions answered by many knowledgible hubbers.

geno

7th March 2005, 01:57 PM

JG,

Thanks for your response.

I was just trying to clarify on your remarks regarding "making a distiction between TN political parties and the hubbers here" to shakthi.

I presented the views of 2 extremely professional columnists , and not from any sources relating to the dravidian movement.

I was objective and i presented the views of an Economist policy analyst and a historian. They both corroborate on the POV that the dravidian movement - particularly the DMK, should be credited for ensuring the Federalistic character of India, and also directly and indirectly contributing to the Position of English in communication & education, thereby contributing to the Global outlook which India enjoys in the present time.

Swaminathan asserts his view convincingly in the Economic perception of how India's present advantage in the IT-enabled services owes to the progressive language policies framed in the 1960s, due to the struggle of the dravidian movement.

Infact - if you go back and read that article "How English Surivived in india" closely, Swaminathan employs obvious derision - when referring to Anna and the DMK, but he is objective enough to credit the continuation of the English as an official language - thereby contributing to the federal and progressive nature of India's socio-politicla-economic situation of present times, to Anna and the DMK!

I liked the way he has "cleverly" written that article, making sure that he has no "love" for the dravidian movement as such, but expressing emphatically about the credit to the language policy should go to the DMK.

This dispassionate view must be heard when people talk about this issue and so i reproduced it here.

And your view that it (the anti-hindhi struggle) wasn't spontaneous is negated by Historian Ramachandra Guha's article, as he produces specific evidences to prove the spontaneity and the universality of the nature of that protest spearheaded by the DMK.

Anti-hindhi "imposition" agitations were started by the dravidian movement as early as in 1938; and significant struggles in that regard occurred in 1948-49, 1952-53, 1958, 1963-65.

Your referring to sensationalism and youths comitting suicide - are sweeping in nature.

I wish to point out that even - Bhagath Singh, or Vanchi nathan (who shot dead, Sub-coolector Ash durai in maniyachi) could be "analysed and diagnosed" of being sensationalists and delinquents!

Tiruppur Kumaran too could be labelled as too much of a sensationalist dying for holding to a "Piece of cloth"!

We can't do that JG! :)

V.O.Chidambaram Pillai or M.K. Gandhi - could have had lucrative careers as Lawyers. Jawaharlal would have made an outstanding professor teaching at the OXford - but they all made a "CHOICE" - to put "hardships" on themselves and others - and to wage a war against a "mighty Empire" which "never saw sunset"! :)

During the civil war in the U.S in 1860s, some southerners must have cursed and sworn against their founding fathers Washington, Adams and Jefferson - for "rebelling" against the british and putting them thru such nightmares as to a civil war and gosh! "abolition of slavery"! :)

My point is, we all make choices, choices to take the rough road, and to fight and die for what we believe in. Thamizhars made their choice to fight for saving their self-respect, ethnic identity - which was ofcourse being paid lip-service by the central govt. at that time, and the rest is history.

A few disgruntled individuals vs Historians & economists!!

I go for the latter! :)

I felt Stifling the "thamizh" voice from being expressed isnt the best way to discuss this issue and so i presented NOT "rhetorics" but facts - as interpreted by Historians and from the Constitution itself.

I have no intention of flaming anyone - which you could have clearly seen, but defending the truth against false propaganda.

I have already agreed - that in a nation as diverse as ours - there are bound to be diverse opinions, but history is a very good judge, and i believe it would put things in perspective in due course of time :)

And a big thanks for asking this thread to be preserved rather than be "taken down"!! :lol:

I usually write "longish" posts in selective threads, and when the whole threads are taken down - kaiya vida, manasu valikkuthuppA!!! :lol:

geno

7th March 2005, 02:14 PM

Almost every thread on language has begun to take on separatist tendencies!!

Badri, could you please explain why you think so, and where the "Seperatist tendencies" have been expressed here or glorified?

This sort of "sweeping comments" get us nowhere! I clearly pointed out that Indian governments instead of taking "Snobberish" attitudes at the grievances of ethnic and lingustic minorities - has "learnt the lesson" and has come around to "Talking it out" with the people who have issues with a "majoritarian" or a "big brotherly" attitude of the central govt.

I gave examples of the govt. talking with the NSCN, and even guys who have "Hurriyat"(Freedom or liberation) in their party names!

Just because one May not agree with the Social Justice policies of the Dravidian movement - one shouldn't jump and slander their achievements with respect to ensuring the federal and progressive nature of the Indian union.

Accusing anyone who defends the Lingusitic struggles of the dravidian movement - as "separatist" smacks of an ignorance of Historical facts.

I'm in splits here ROTFL-ing, when i imagine how Rajaji would react if he were to be accused as a "Separatist" - for supporting the anti-hindhi imposition agititations!! :lol:

jaiganes

7th March 2005, 02:57 PM

geno!
As I already have expressed, the anti-hindi movement was spontaneous, but the casacading effect it took and the violent form it took are undeniable. It is true that in freedom struggle many chose cause over their lives and happily gave the latter away. I understand the sentiments and in no way i am undermining them. What I wish to highlight is the fact that even Freedom struggle was accompanied by individuals who piled up the logical argument for the case for struggle. In the DMK led agitation no doubt that the feelings were channelised well and effectively won the case in Thamizh Nadu, but rest of India perceived the whole movement as a state whose public opinion was sentimentally charged and therefore lost sight of the big picture. Ankleshwara Aiyer may find it rather amusing because he himself would have ridiculed the movement in early 60s. Now he is having to grudgingly admit because he finds that south which is less afflicted with hindhi is quick to pick up the IT boom while north is still getting the pronunciations and business etiquettes right. But think of the circumstance where the economy is not liberated and a marked absence of IT (as it was in 60s), all Ankleshwara aiyers would be sitting in Delhi writing the column the otherway around with a big grin saying "I told you so". As far as getting hyper about being labelled a separatist, I wouldn't label you or anyone else a separatist, but tell me was not the favourite slogan of DMK "Adaindhaal Dravida naadu illayel sudugaadu" (Eng: translation Only options left are separate dravida land of cemetry). True it was Annadurai who said that he is abandoning this slogan forever and it was not until he was CM did he say so. I read a book by Rajaji on this issue of anti hindi struggle and he clearly outlines how Nehru for all his knowledge on the country was in a huge disconnect with reality(anti-Hindhi feelings in Thamizh Nadu). Rajaji himself had changed his positions from being in favour of the trilanguage formula (our hindustani ladka's favourite) to in favour of the two language formula that the anti-hindhi champions were rooting for. Rajaji is a peculiar politician. he is hailed as a man with prophetic vision by his supporters. He is one person who saw political trends and accurately predicts what will happen in the future. True he had policies, but he was not so intangible to take them to his grave. He adjusted himself to the will of the people even if it(will) was wrong. He switched sides in the language issue because he saw the harmful effects that will emerge eventually. Otherwise, he too like Nehru was convinced that one language is required to communicate and that would help India in the long run. But once he saw that almost all of India's ancient history, culture and science was in languages other than Hindhi, he soon found out that it would be an uneven playing field for other languages versus central govt sponsored hindhi and if they lose, so would the ancient culture and assimilated knowledge of India. Once he went to talk in a meeting organised by Bengali scholars who supported hindhi as national language. He was jeered and booed by them once he started. He put forth solid points so strong and irefutable for Bengali being the sole national language of India as opposed to Hindhi and the audience was in deep confusion. He concluded by saying there are dozens of other Indian languages that on the basis of their merit can serve as single national language effectively all better suited than hindi. This logical argument is what was missing in DMK led agitation. While they picked the pulse of people right, they failed to get the best possible solution out of it. Still central government is backing Hindhi, waiting for an opportune moment to strike.

Badri

8th March 2005, 04:20 AM

Geno

I think perhaps you may have misunderstood me. I did not mean the references to history as being seperatist. Nor am I judging the anti-hindi movement which shook up Tamil Nadu, and the country too.

In fact, if you read through another thread of mine

http://forumhub.lunarpages.com/hub/viewtopic.php?p=80642&highlight=#80642 I have answered these very questions.

geno

8th March 2005, 05:03 AM

JG,

Thanks for your detailed response. :)

I need to delve in detail regarding the background on the "Seccession" issue, so as to understand it in the proper perspective of the Historical necessities of the era.

I'm now presenting a very "moderate" version of what i actually intend to say - because of the "Political niceties" which are required in this hub. Im just conveying the "crux" of my thoughts so that im able to highlight on the "validity" of the dravidian movement's demand for secession until they gave up, and trying to make sense of it all. :)

It is true that the Language and the dravidian cause had been one of the most sensitive issues, but inorder to "understand" them - one needs to shed any biased or cliched views of the events which preceeded India's independence and happenings afterwards of that.

"Seccession" and "Separatism" are words - which have a whole different connotations in the current day, and i intend to highlight the fact that pre-independence india's "Separatist" Political voices need to be judged in a different light.

It is no "secret" that "India" had always been an idea and not a "Nation" prior to independence.

More than 1100 Provinces, Princedoms and fiefdoms et al later were merged to make up what we collectively term as the Indian Union.

During the freedom struggle itself, debates regarding the nature, character and outlook of a "future" nation of India had begun. And especially in the south - in Madras Presidency (which had the present day Tamilnadu & some parts of present day KErala like malabar, Some parts of Karnataka - like parts of present day Bangalore and southern Andhra ) the debate was more pronounced.

The dominanace of northern Hindhi leaders in the Congress, and their obsession with both a "Hindian" and "sanathanic" view of a future India - sounded an alarm bell for progressive looking and federally-minded Non-hindhi speaking leaders within the congress.

Periyar EVR, who Joined the congress (brought into it by Rajaji) in the year 1919 - stayed in the party until 1925. He tried to bring a "Reformist" face to the congress, and make it more inclusive and less "archaic" failed in his attempts repeatedly.

His sacrifices for the non-cooperation movement, and the prohibition movement started by Gandhi - were in vain. He was repeatedly asking for Positive discrimination measures to be adopted by the congress, as also recognizing the "ethnic" linguistic and cultural rights of the regions. But, since the then congress party was completely controlled by the "orthodox elite" people - they blunted all of his atempts in reforming and giving the party a new face and policy.

He was dis illusioned with the way M.K. Gandhi handled the Vaikom movement too, and finally after running up the "orthodox" wall repeatedly in the congress he quit in 1925.

His attempts to "Modernise" the congress party - in order to make it compete with the Justice party which was More popular in tha Madras presidency then (it ruled Madras presidency between 1921-1937) - did not succeed.

He had a bitter parting of ways with his friend(Rajaji) in the Political arena (which continued till rajaji died in 1972) and started the Self-respect movement in 1925, and began his propaganda - against the "orthodoxy", "archaic" natures.

But since - the Southern "Orthodoxy" elites were seen to be in collusion with the Northern Hindhi Masters - in matters of Policies and programs - Periyar felt the need to unite the dravidians as a race and fight against the discrimination, so that "Orthodox"- Northerner coalition would be successfully countered.

In 1937-38, Rajaji became Madras presidency's Chiefminister, and immediately he announced that - he would implement the Hindhi education and the "kulak kalvi" muRai - whcih were both the
Programs of the "orthodox elite" and the Sanathanavad Hindhi masters from the north.

It is in this background that - the Major cry for "Seccession" from any "future" independent India - was announced by Periyar's dravidian movement - which was supported by a Massive numbers of
tamils who saw Rajaji's policies to be anti-tamil and retrograde.

The undivided Madras presidency also had a lots of Telugu-speaking leaders as well as Malayalam speakers - who supported the Periyar's call for Succession(in a future Indian union) , as an effective tool to drive home the point to the Blind, deaf and "dumb" northern Command of Independece struggle.

So, Between 1938-1947, the seccession plank was not only a valid discourse, but a rapidly growing popular line among even the educated backward classes.

Note that the Dravidian movement was NEVER any kind of secretive movement, nor did it have "hidden" agendas. It openly rooted for Social Justice, ethnic identity, secession based on the VALID fears that the northies would bulldoze all regional identities and languages.

What happened immedaitely after the independece was - utter chaos and confusion in addression the regional problems of the country - an Patel used both threats, Pressure and persuasion to get most of the princely states to accede to india.

Here is where the real probleme started; due to the PArtition riots, the "Hindhi" language favoring zealots were emboldened and empowered more by the mass hatred which ensued due to the
partition.

Azad, Gandhi and Nehru - had advocated "hindustani" be the official language along with english; but since "Hindustani" was seen to be closer to Urdu - it was rejected by the more rabidly Rightwing leaders within the congress party - headed by patel, and by Jan sangh then headed by S.P. Mookerjee.

Finally - the "Hindhiwallahs" gained control of the prevailing situation and pushed for hindhi - and grudgingly accomodated english for the next 15 years.

But even from 1950 - the "hindhi only" Lobby were working overtime - to delete that "promise" to continue with English for Indian Union business, and their open "condemning" of anyone who opposed their move to "hindi-ise" the Indian union - with "anti-national" and "unpatriotic" epithets.

The situation for Non-hindhi speakers in Independent India - was one of Damocles Sword hanging over thier head eternally!

And Nehru's meek handling of the hindhi zealots within his own party and from other groups did not help the matter any further. Added to the fact that in the SUpreme Court, in 1951-52 - the Positive Discrinmination Reservation system was quashed, or rather allowed to be quashed by NEhru's govt.

This proved one more reason for the feeling of unjustice and conspiratorial ill-will - especialy in the "Reformist" Southern Madras presidency. Dravidian movements organised massive protests - demanding various assurances from the central govt - including Social Justice Policy(Reservations in educations and Employemet), and also protesting the arrogance of Hindhi imposition groups.

Nehru did not help the matter by calling Tamils as Idiots for pressing against the Hindhi imposition.

This resulted in fierce agitations, and one of the MOST important watershed event was the "kallakkudi" protest - for renaming "Dalmiya puram" to "kallakkudi" - against "Hindhi-isation" of names of places in Madras presidency.

It was organized, motivated, planned and led by Kalaignar M. Karunanadidhi. This agitation saw the famous Rail maRiyal pOrattam which catapulted the dravidian movements anti-hindhi imposition
struggles - to national level.

It is also where under Kalaignar, a young 24 year old Muthiah undertook to lie on the track along with a batch of the protestors. That Muthiah was none other than Kavignar Kannadasan, who was
groomed directly by Kalaignar in the DMK, then.

Later - in 1957, the Jan Sangh and Ram manohar LohiyA's socialist party joined hands and demanded that Hindhi be made the ONLY official language of India Immediately. That agitation took
ugly and violent turn and they tarred all english language boards in towns and cities in the north!

This had a rippling effect and the DMK demanded an assurance from NEhru that english would continue to be the official language, and also to make all languages in the schedule of Languages (8th schedule) to be made official languages.

After that , Nehru was once visiting Chennai, and massive Black flag protests were orgainzed by the dravidian movements. That was also when, Kannadasan threw a slipper towards Nehru in the airport - shouting Nehru ozhiga!!

( The same Kannadasan, later became a congressman and wrote "rOjAvin rAjA" a "irangal kavithai" which was very moving - when Nehru died in 1964! )

Also during the period of 1954-56 states were reorgainzed on the basis of Language, and the act came into effect in the year 1956. The malabar district of Madras presidency went to Kerala, most parts of Bangalore area went to Karnataka (which tells you why Tamils living there now have a resentment of becoming second class citizens during that reorganizsation) etc..

This effectively - left the dravidian movements to rethink their "Seccession" plank. DMK made a proposal - that all 4 states reorganised, Madras presidency, Kerala, Andhra and Ktka - can ask for
and achieve "independent" status in phases.

But except in MAdras presidency - other places had only parties which did not want to lose out their "national" party status. While Andhra and Ktka had congress well entrenched, Kerala communists - who had previously gone thru "underground periods" during bans, did not want to openly associate themselves with "Seccession" plank as they were more interested in the "class struggle" of the nation - although minority numbers who favored a seccession - and a
"Confederation" of these 4 states were there in other states too.

This forced both the DK, and DMK on the backfoot, but still they did not give up the plank as the reasons to originally demand was still valid.

In 1962 elections, the DMK OPENLY fought on the seccession plank, and even Rajaaji's Swathanthira Party was aligned with the DMk along with CPI in that election. It won 50 assembly seats up 32 from the 17 it won in 1957 - although the Congress accused DMk of having separatist
outlooks!!

Even in thiruchengode byelection of 1962 DMK won!

This caused a Major furore in Delhi where Nehru was advised "northern" elites to "check' the "growing" menace of the anti-hindhi party DMK!

Annadurai, who had became a member of Rajya sabha in 1962, even in Initial speech in RS - emphasised the need for "Seceding" from the indian union, because of the lurking dangers of
hindhi Unitarism and Dominace of orthodoxy in the Indian Union.

Basically there was an intense debate, even at that time in DMK party circles, regarding the priorities to be given; whether to give importance to the Social justice and rationalist policies, or convert the call for seccession into a more powerful one.

But the end to this seccessionist demand of the DMK came in the form of Indo-china war!!

Even in september of 1962 - DMk had organized 'Dravida thani nadu vizha".

In October of 1962, Nehru's Hindi-Chini bhai bhai dreams were shattered by Mao's Peoples Liberation Army's incursion into Indian borders! Nehru and indeed india were unprepared for that
war - and in the end India stood humiliated and its stature was reduced in the internation arena.

until then Nehru stood as a Giant "Light of asia" and that defeat due to the ill-advisors around him - left hims depressed and dejected.

All of Nehru's Grandiose notions of Democracy went for a toss. He was so much crest-fallen that he even allowed to be persuaded by the right-wingers in his party, to permit - the RSS cadres to marchpast in the Jan 26, 1963 Republic Day parade!!

Atlast, Nehru subjugated to the Fanatics of the Hindhi heartland who took advantage of the Security situation of india, in the aftermath of the Defeat by china - to frame laws which would curb "Seccessionism" (which effectively meant anyone who doesnt submit to Hindhi lobbyists).

In January 1963 - the 16th amendment bill draft was tabled in the parliament - which proclaimed that anyone who does not swear allegiance to Indian constitution - can't run for elections!

link : http://indiacode.nic.in/coiweb/amend/amend16.htm

Meanwhile, the Hindhi fanatics of the north pushed for the Official languages Act 1963, which declared that after Jan 26, 1965, ALL govt, business would be conducted in Hindhi as also all Servicce exams of central govt would be in hindhi.

A war-weary and defeated Nehru, went back on his promise earlier given and subjugated to the Hindhi lobbyists!!!

This triggered and started the Massive protests in South India, especially in TN, and students who saw that they are being unfairly disadvantaged, due to making Hindhi language as medium of exams
and official duty of the center. So, SPONTANEOUS support poured in for the agitiation organized under the command of Kalaignar, headed by Anna - all over the Madras state, in April- May 1963.

All leaders of DMK were imprisoned, and the most important chief-organizer of the agitation, Kalaingar was considered dangerous - if kept with other leaders; so, he was arrested under National Security Act (NSA) and kept in a - secluded prison in Palayamkottai for about three months, with a threat hanging over his life, if he did not cooperate with the authorities.

After Massive protests pouring in from students and other sections of the society, Nehry finally budged and again promised continuation of English as official lang. as long as non-hindhi speaking people wanted.

But plans to decimate DMK - thru the 16th amendment was afoot in the corridors of delhi!

this left DMK with 2 choices :

* to let go their separate statehood demand and retain the option to win the governance of the state - which can then be utilised to safeguard the thamizh lingusitic, ethnic rights and also to implement Social Justice measures

* or to forego the stature as electoral democratic party - and continue to be just another propagandist organization.

DMK's central committe met on November 3, 1963 - and debated the pros and cons of the issue and finally decided to take the first option of being an electoral party - and push for social reform thru governance.

Thus, DMK dropped it's demand for seprate state atleast 3 and halh years before it came to power in the state in 1967, and NOT AFTER it came to power , as some people may maliciously suggest.

It was a decision based on pragmatism and a change of ground realities forced DMK to accept it.

But, Annadurai openly declared on the floor of the parliament - that "DMK may have foregone demand for seccession; but the grounds and reasons on which it was originally raised still remains"

"pirivinai-yai kaividukiROm; aanAl pirivinai kOriyatharkAna kAraNangaL appadiyEthAn uLLana!!"

Thus DMK's seccessionist demand - had run through a VALID political discourse only to be grounded because of the changing political realities of that time, and due to the pressure to choose
between being in a position to push for the Social Justice measures and thamizh development & protection, OR to remain a Non-electoral organization, which can't effect any Social Justice policies in the governance.

This was a Trade-off and i believe DMK has chosen wisely - and has since been able to successfully implement the Social Justice policies. :)

I believe, This is how enitre "Seccession" history of the dravidian movement should be seen - and not in an unidimensional, and factually-biased mindset. :)

Badri

8th March 2005, 05:20 AM

Wow Geno!!

Thanks for the really enlightening discourse on the history of the movement. That was a well structured post, and even though it was long, it sure was interesting and educative.

Ilavenil

8th March 2005, 05:57 AM

Hats off to you, Geno. Ivlo thelliva villakiyatharkku nandri. Intha vibarangall yengirunthu katreergall? Naanun padikka asai.

geno

8th March 2005, 05:58 AM

Thanks badri! :)

Earlier, I didn't intend to question "you" but rather the "cliched" view which persists in general! :)

geno

8th March 2005, 06:00 AM

iLavEnil!

aRputhamAna peyar! :)

ivvaLavu arumaiyAna peyar sootiyirupathaRkAka enathu pArAttukkaLai muthalil pidiyungaL! :)

"kaRRathu kaiyaLavu! kallAthathu pEraNdam aLavu!" :)

8th March 2005, 06:02 AM

Geno:
I really admire your great knowledge. Thanks so much for sharing it with us :thumbsup:

Ilavenil

8th March 2005, 06:21 AM

iLavEnil!

aRputhamAna peyar! :)

ivvaLavu arumaiyAna peyar sootiyirupathaRkAka enathu pArAttukkaLai muthalil pidiyungaL! :)

"kaRRathu kaiyaLavu! kallAthathu pEraNdam aLavu!" :)

Yennai parattivittu yen kelvikku pathilallikkamal thapithukulla parkindreergalla?

geno

8th March 2005, 06:31 AM

NM,

hi! :)

iLavEnil,

ennanga neenga?!! :) niRaiya sources irukku! but it's like a Jigsaw puzzle! The trick is in understanding what the final figure would look like and then fit in the pieces!! :)

dravida iyakkam paRRi nAn munbu padithathu; enakku therintha sila naNbarkaL sonnathu - ithellAm sErnthu thAn idhu.

But understanding the sequence of events - is something that comes coz of the passion :)

Badri

8th March 2005, 06:39 AM

Ilavenil,

Geno enna solla vararuna...naan pattu therinja vishayatha vecchu yetho buruda vitten; dates ellam sethu sonna, ellarum nambiduvanga, paravaillaye, vishayam therinja aala irukkarennnu nanaippanga appadinnu kathai ezhuthina...neenga vera, sources kekkareengalennu!!

Illa, Geno, sir? :wink: Athu theriyaama, Ilavenil paatu...enga irukku athu ithunnu.... :lol:

Hey, jus' kidding. Seriousa eduthukkatheenga

Ilavenil

8th March 2005, 11:17 AM

Hi Geno,

Neengal kuriyavai, pala andugallukku mun nandhallum, netru nadanthaithaipol neengal yeduthu sonavidhamthan neengall yengu irunthu kartrigal yendru ketka thundiyathu.

Badri,
ungal villakkam poruthamanathuthan.

Geno,
kobithukkollathirgal. I am just kidding too.

jaiganes

8th March 2005, 11:56 AM

geno !
Good post. I would have gotten confused, but of late I am following Dhina thanthi's "Kaalach chuvadugal" a remarkable series of historical events in Thamizh Naadu after Independence. Geno from all the detail, I accept and there is no debate on what DMK has achieved. But if you go back to the early pages of this thread, you can realize that in spite of the best efforts, still the myth surrounding national language remains and still naive and gullible people go around telling that Thamizh, Telugu and other languages are "regional languages" as if that is something demeaning.

Your detailed history of DMK and its movement not withstanding, I would still blame DMK for sensationalisation and when the power was up for grabs, conveniently forgetting the hindhi issue. As a result we see Kids preferring to speak and learn hindhi from Kendriya Vidyalayas and other CBSE schools. Forget all that, today in popular media the most stupid character is shown to be the one who speaks chaste thamizh! :cry: While DD's podhigai s telecasting Kamban vizha and kavi arangams (kavi sammelans) SUNTV which everyone knows to be a DMK TV is showing "hipong bopang" ads and cheena thaana dance round the clock. What you have brought up as DMK's contribution to anti-hindhi movement, I will have to counter that with what happened next ? what happened post 1965? now that will be a total digression. I request you to open a new thread on DMK's contribution to thamizh once it gained power in Thamizh nadu.
Getting back to the topic, I still feel that other states linguistic movement did not cooperate with DMK's anti-hindhi movement because of the "seccessionist " tone. If DMK had been shrewd rather than stupid, it could have gathered huge nationwide support. But I will accuse DMK of having an intention to secure power in Thamizh Nadu using language issue. That is why they tied language-caste issue with nationhood and ended up exciting Thamizh nadu public while the telugu, malayalam movements chose to walk away.

Roshan

8th March 2005, 01:22 PM

Excellent Work geno!! :D :thumbsup: You never disappoint us !!! :D

Jaiganesh,

While I respect your views and counter arguments, I would like to raise an issue here. Why at once every body brings in SUN TV when there's a discussion on DMK and its service to Tamil just because its CEO is a relative of Kalainger?

Sun TV is just another commercialized TV channel which has expanded its services almost all over in India and around the world with not only Tamil but with various other Indian languages. It has to cater to the requirements of all types of its audience inorder to maintain its growth and success. Irrespective of all criticisms of being anti Tamil(?) it still remains the most popular channel among Tamils of all part of the globe.

Podhikai as opposed to Sun TV is a government maintained channel and it's mainly funded by the government no matter it makes a profit or not. Comparing podhikai with Sun TV sounds incorrect to me. Besides, podhikai too telecasts film songs of 'cheena thaana' type while Sun TV telecasts some excellent programs like 'arattai arangam', sabtha swarangal, vaNakkam thamizhagam, dubbed Tamil cartoons, patti mandrams, kaviyarangams etc.

They cannot keep telecasting patti mandrams and kaviyarangams all the time if they want to sustain. I myself have seen the so called Tamils switching on to an English movie or 'manmatha raasao' type songs or something of that sort when there's a patti mandram being telecast on their favourite channels. Expecting a commercialized TV channel which has its services around the globe- to stick to purified-only Tamil programs is not politically correct. Infact Sun TV with its excellent marketing team has managed to capture thousands of Tamil and non Tamil audience for its Tamil Programs by catering to their exact tastes. Even in this hub you may have seen so many non Tamilians eagerly watching Tamil serials. There are thousands of Singhalese here in Sri Lanka who are chitti, annamalai and metti oli fans. Almost all Sun TV serials are telecasted with subtitles in Singhala and now after the huge success of 'Chitti' among Singhalese - the serial has been dubbed in Sinhala and being aired on a Singhalese based channel.

Even if some one tries to analyse Sun TV within the context of its service to Tamil, I feel it has done a great job to spread Tamil across the globe in a way that is acceptable to the audience.

NOV

8th March 2005, 07:12 PM

I'm now presenting a very "moderate" version of what i actually intend to say - because of the "Political niceties" which are required in this hub. ... and such niceties dont go unnoticed, judging from the flow of acknowledgement following your post. ;)

vaazhththukkal geno!

Mad Max

10th March 2005, 08:41 AM

geno

11th March 2005, 01:47 AM

JG,

Thanks again for asking all the right questions! :)

As you have indicated the contribution of DMK to thamizh language post 1967, is indeed a very valid topic of discussion. I dont know if you have been to the old hub - in the last 3-4 years there have been quite a few threads where this issue used to be a "flame" topic - propped-up by some people who did not even know or properly understand early 20th century Justice Party's and Dravidian movements' history and work. It'd be nice if we can continue it in the history section :)

Keeping with your other remarks, regarding the Dravidian Movement's "failure" to secure the confidence of other dravidian lingusitc groups other than thamizh - well, the answer lies in the "Lingusitic states reorganisation " process.

As i have previously indicated - "Justice Party" was the front-runner of the "Social Justice" policies which later shaped Periyar dravidar kazhagam. Right from 1915-16, people like Sir P.T.Thiagarayar, Dr. Natesan, T.M.Nayar - groomed Justice Party - as a Social reform party, with Malayalees, Telugus along with thamizhars leading it.

Periyar E.V.R himself was a kannadiga! SO, it was a Pan-dravidian movement through and through - during the Justice Party years, which later merged into Periyar's Self-respect movement, which later evolved as the "Dravidar KazhagaM" in 1941.

Periyar's DK and later Anna's DMK(founded in Sep. 1949) were fighting for Dravida country even though they had their own separate "Modus Operandi", but both the movements involved persons from all the Dravidian lingustic groups.

But right after the independence, certain political events started to influence this "Dravidian country" policy.

"Kerala" prior to 1947(until 1956 if one should be politically correct) was made up of essentially 2-3 Parts. The Travancore Samasthanam, cochi and the Malabar. Malabar District was with the Madras presidency.

The Travancore Samasthanam king was being advised by his "Diwan" C.P. Ramaswamy Iyer, NOT to join the proposed "Indian Union". There was a revolt among Most of the citizens of the samasthanam who were for joining with the Indian union, but Iyer was adamantly foiling a smooth transition of the samasthanam; he wanted "Travancore Kingdom" to be a separate state!

Both the Congress and the communists agitated against the tyrannical Diwan - Mr.Iyer in Travancore ( It is said that the communists were more active than the congress in making travancore accede to indian union - keralites can add more info on this particular event)

Finally, a peaceful solution was arrived at - and Travancore was acceded to Indian union. Similar rebellion of Nizam of Hyderabad too was quelled. But a lot of confusion still prevailed in the administrative perspectives for the newly acceded princely states. Hyderabad state had a huge chunk of Islamic Populace (which mostly tells you why the Andhraites have accustomed to the Hindhi language more easily than other dravidian groups!), and the Travancore state had both thamizh and Malayalee populace.

During the States reorganisation process, there were lots of hardships and controversies in drawing up the boundaries of the respective states. Malabar district in the Madras Presidency was joined with the Cochi areas and Travancore areas and Kerala was formed. Still there were some contentions regarding joining of the Kanyakumari district (some areas in former Travancore state) with the Madras state.

The congress party was exploiting - the states reorganisation process - to drive a wedge along the "Dravidian Movement" - by raking up needless issues and flaming them. Since Congress folks were strong in the Mysore state and the Andhra - they created numerous hurdles and all these contentions led to heart-burns.

Tamilnadu(Madras state then) lost some important areas like "DevikuLam" and "peermEdu" in its boundary areas.

When - "vada vEnkadam thenkumari Ayidai thamizh kooRu nallulaku" - was pointed out - in favor of the argument to Join "Thiruppathi" with TN, the andhra congress-wallahs flamed us by asking "madras manathe"!!! :lol: - and tangled the entire boundary demarcation issue into a war of words.

Thamizh Nationalists (who were NOT necessarily Atheists or Seccessionists!) Like Ma.pO.si, were attacking that Periyar's dravidian movement had led to Thamizhnadu losing out its rightful areas to Andhra, Karnataka and kerala! (Periyar was closer to the congress during the entire regime of Kamaraj - 1953-1963 )

Our "karma veerar" Kamarajar aiya was lamenting that - all these rightful voices of the Thamizh people - were unnecessary, and nakkal adichifying - " (Peer) mEdAvathu, (dEvi) kuLamAvathu - ellAm IndiyA-vukku uLLathAn irukkunnEn!!!!!!" - in his lovely rustic style!!! :)

Thus Congresswallahs from Karnataka, Andhra and TN - cunningly and successfully used the Linguistic states re-organisation process - to put the entire dravidian cause in a tight spot!

Further Andhra - itself had huge loads of Problems - with "Rayala seema", "Telengana" and "Andhra" regions - all 3 of them wanting a separate state of their own and all!!

The "confederation of Dravidian States" plan of the DMK - after the reorganisation, proposing that Madras State, Andhra, Karnataka and Kerala - can secede in "phases" - from the indian union and then form a "Dravidian Confederation" - was not reciprocated by our dravidian brothers!

The mutual distrust and bad tatse that was generated then - lingered on - and you can't blame the DMK for it.

Coming to the issue of DMK using Language issue just to come to power - it is all hogwash that our "defeated orthodox friends" parrot tirelessly! :)

DMK - changed its party constitution from being a non-electoral socio-cultural organization into a political organization only in 1956-57! (between 1949-56 it wasn't contesting elections).

But the "mozhip pOr" had - as i had said - catapulted to National stage even way back in 1952-53 - during the Kallakkudi rail maRiyal pOrAttam. Lingusitic protection was always an agenda with the DMK, and it wasn't "introduced" suddenly during 1963!!!

As i had earlier noted, the Dravidian movements' - struggles for Social Justice, ethinic cultural and lingusitic rights - were all inter-woven and strongly bonded to each other, and the lingustic struggles have been happening from 1938!

1937-38, 1952-53, 1957-59, 1963-65 - were Major years - when this jinxed "Official Languages" issue rocked the landscape of Madras presidency.

The Social Justice policiies of the DMK were evident when it had jointly agitated along with DK - for the implementation of Positive Discrimination Measures for Backward and oppressed communities in Education and employement, way back in 1951-52 - when Supreme court had quashed "Reservations" as Govt. Policy, and dravidian movements succeded in persuading - Nehru's govt. to accept it as a progressive and necessary policy thru its nemuerous agitations and struggles in early 50s.

In fact, not just the ensuring of the federal nature of Indian Union and continuance of English language as official language - but ALSO the credit for - making of the Social justice policies as a foremost Socio-Political reality in Indian Politics MUST go to the dravidian movements.

The DMK had already contested in 1957 getting 17 assembly seats, and in 1962 getting 50 assembly seats (on an Open call to secede!!) - PRIOR to its Historic win in the 1967 elections!!

So - Where is the question of "Using" the language Issue just to get into power?

That is the standard line from the "Modern chanakyas" who - to this day cannot believe that they were defeated thoroughly, in their "Own Game" by the dravidian parties! :)

I remember what Anna had said after the "Parting of ways" with the DK - "We shall function as a Double-barrel Gun henceforth" - "ini engaL iru iyakkangaLum irattaik-kuzhal thuppAkki pOla seyalpadum!!"

Nothing could have been more "Prophetic"!!!

DMK took on the Congress' - "Orthodox Might" head-on in the Political arena, while Periyar's DK - had allied with Kamarajar's Congress (after Rajaji's exit) and "Influencing" Government policies and programmes - being a "friendly organization"!

Even though Periyar could not convince Kamaraj to rename "Madras state" as "thamizhnaadu" - he was instrumental - in congress evolving the "thamizh Atchi mozhi varaivu chattam" in 1957, which paved the basics of policies and practice in usage of thamizh in administration in TN (with a lot of inputs from the DMK, during assembly debates )

Congress was forced to "compete" with the DMK's growing popularity as the thamizh protector among the citizens and they brought that act; but, needless to say, that was not implemented until Anna became the CM in 1967. :)

Thus DK and DMK - were perfectly complimenting each others' seemingly "antagonistic political courses" - which resulted in taking the wind out of the "Mighty Orthodox elite" - which lived in a dreamland - where "Sanskrit ka bacha" Hindhi - would become the only official National Language - wiping out the "theettu mozhi" thamizh!!!! :lol:

"Thamizh" prevailed! and it still does! "milEcha bAsha" (??!!) cut the "dEva bAsha" speakers down to size! - not just in TN but in the entire Indian union, by curtailing Hindhi to just 6 states and 2 union territories as compulsory language!! :)

P.S:

Note that yesterday - "Sanjay Nirupam" a "North-indian" Shiv Sena MP, has resigned from his LS seat, in protest of Bal Thackeray's anti-northie Policies!!!!!!!!!

Wonder why the Marathis are never called "terrorists" or "separatists" by the hindi-wallahs!!! :lol:

geno

11th March 2005, 01:49 AM

JG,

I completely understand - and agree with - your valid point regarding the fact that Hindhi is still a threat, as far as Official Language Policy goes, and there needs to be a lot more done to foil any future attempts to hindi-ise india.

I also want to put it on record, that even among the secular-minded parties like the SP of Mulayam Singh yadav - there are hardcore hindi lobbyists. So, regardless of the Political divide in the country, Tamils (non-hindhi speakers in general) should strive to "skillfully" - take their case for making all of the 20-odd national languages as Official Languages - thereby making Indian union to be truly more liberal and secular and democratic.

In this process, a lot of political will is required rather than just shrill-rhetorics. Non-congress, Non-BJP parties should be apprised about the fears of linguistic minorities of the country, and "strategic co-operation" in "Federal Matters" may be "tools" that are bartered ! :)

I know there is going to be a lot of "real-politik" that is involved in all these stuff - but organizations like the DK, have already established "good contacts" with parties like the SP, BSP and the LJP. Or atleast - they "know" what the tamils think specifically in the language issue.

In Periyar's time, he was accused of a "Separatist", but both Mulayam singh's and Mayawati's - Previous UP governments have allowed "Periyar Mela" to be conducted in their states! :D

Here i want to stress - that Notwithstanding - what our personal "political idealogies" are - Tamils as a group - should be prepared to work with & lobby with - any 'Political master' who can control the "Linguistic Policy" in any future scenario, in this particular issue

So these "feelers" are good, but their effectiveness is for posterity to judge.

But the present UP govt. CMP has a reference, i believe, primarily written into it by the DMK - that ALL 8th schedule Languages - 20 odd of 'em - should be gradually made into Official languages of the Indian union!

Already, DMK has won a major battle in this regard, making Thamizh as the First Officially declared Classical Language of the Indian union . That means a LOT of things; primarily, more grants and funds for setting up schools of thamizh, thamizh chairs in Universities ACROSS Indian union, and also across anywhere in the world. :D

Atlast, thamizh has been able to break into the hitherto "select" - "deva bAshA" groups of Sanskrit and hindi - with respect to the govt. funding! :)

There is "fierce" lobbying by the Tamilnadu parties to persuade the union govt. to announce - this year or the next year (2006) as "Thamizh ANdu" - which will atleast in a symbolic way, Raise awareness and "ambition" among other Major language groups like the Bengali and Telugu groups - to atlast come out of the shadow of the Hindi language. ( That is a very definite expected good outcome of all these "alleged" - "thamizh fanaticism" our learned brothers sitting on high horses - accuse us of!!! :lol: )

indha "thamizh" nArathar seikiRa kalakam - eppothum IndiyAvukku nanmaiyila thAn mudiyum!!!! :D

geno

11th March 2005, 01:52 AM

And now for "Pure Academic interest" - the following links are given :

Note that these are for presenting different opinions in this issue, which exist, the variety of which, wasn't thought to exist previously, in india! :)

1. Parliament debates- reproduced verbatim - which happened in the "Constituent Assembly" - regarding the disputed Official language issue, in the late 1940s :

http://parliamentofindia.nic.in/ls/debates/vol9p34a.htm

2. A Kannadiga(?) writes this column; what's more interesting to note is that this guy is an alleged "Sympathiser" with the "right-wing" groups of India! ( he seems to have defended the IDRF org. of the USA in indian newsgroups, when it was banned as a "Orgn. funding hate" by the US State dept)

http://www.sulekha.com/expressions/column.asp?cid=99549

Note that : I have nothing to do with his views, but am presenting it - purely for the most important thing that he does here - exploding the stupid dream of the northern right-wingers, that southindian sympathisers to their cause - would just "play ball" with their whims!!! :

3. Another link - from an Unknown source, but a self-confessed "lover of Hindi" but "hater of Hindi-chauvinism!" :

http://www.dpo.uab.edu/~murali/tamil.htm

geno

11th March 2005, 02:10 AM

[tscii:5810c5044b]badri & iLavEnil!

nAN kObikkavillai! :)

Roshan - thanks for your view on this subject; that's very valuable as it presents the views of tamils not living in the "Tamil mainland", and so as a fairly representative view of expatriates and tamil natives, who dont need to bother about the "linguistic quagmire" which Indian tamils have to engage with! :D

NOV!

nanRigaL! :)

Mad Max!

:D eppidi irukkinga! santhithu pala vArangaL aguthu?! :D

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º¢ÄÐ¸û ÓÂüº¢ ¦ºöÅ¨¾ô À¡÷òÐ Å¢ØóÐ Å¢ØóÐ º¢Ã¢îº¢ðÎ þÕì§¸ý! :lol:

Á¸¡¸Å¢ À¡Ã¾¢Â¢ý "ÁÈÅý À¡ðÎ" - «í§¸ §À¡ðÎ - þÐìÌ ±ýÉ¼¡ þ¼ï ÍðÊô ¦À¡Õû Å¢Çì¸õ-Û §¸ì¸Ïõ «Ð¸Ç!!

Ðñ¼ì ¸¡½õÛ µÊÃ¡Ð¸?!!!! :lol:

"Å¢¾¢§Â Å¢¾¢§Â ±ý ¦ºÂ ¿¢¨Éì¸¢ýÈ¡Â¼¡ ¾Á¢úî º¡¾¢¾¨É" :([/tscii:5810c5044b]

hehehewalrus

11th March 2005, 03:12 AM

geno, how to read the kambilipoochis in your post? orutharume font solli thare maatengaraanga! ;)

geno

11th March 2005, 03:21 AM

walrus, :D

Try this :

http://www.suratha.com/reader.htm

Just copy & Paste - the "kambli poochi" part of the post - and press the "TSC" Radio Button - and lo! you should be able to read it!

If "TSC" button - dont work try all other buttons present there!

else

come back to me!

P.S :

You need TSC_Avarangal in your system fonts - to be able to read this, but if you use that suratha.com webpage tool - u dont need any font insatlled in ur system - to read it.

hehehewalrus

11th March 2005, 03:42 AM

thank you :D

geno

11th March 2005, 03:55 AM

[tscii:7063e19f13] walrus :D

¯í¸Ç¡ø þ¨¾ô ÀÊì¸ ÓÊ¸¢È¾¡?!!

"Å¡øÃŠ"-ìÌ - "º£ø" ÒÊìÌÁ¡? ;) :lol:[/tscii:7063e19f13]

jaiganes

11th March 2005, 04:04 PM

Geno!
Those were wonderful replies. I loved reading them.
Though these were interesting statements of DMK and DK's history,
certain sections like :

The "confederation of Dravidian States" plan of the DMK - after the reorganisation, proposing that Madras State, Andhra, Karnataka and Kerala - can secede in "phases" - from the indian union and then form a "Dravidian Confederation" - was not reciprocated by our dravidian brothers!

validate my previous post as to why this moment didn't cut much ice with other south indian states. I cannot argue with the fact that CMP inclusion and declaration of "Thamizh" as a classical languages are major successes, but the threat of hindi domination still exists and in future ppl of other languages should work united to face that challenge.

NOV ! is there anything left to discuss? Atleast now, can we archive this thread and make it sticky?

Roshan

11th March 2005, 04:27 PM

NOV ! is there anything left to discuss? Atleast now, can we archive this thread and make it sticky?

You made the same request sometime back but we had the wonderful opportunity of witnessing a great discussion only after that. So lets leave this thread for a while . It's my humble opinion.

Cinefan

11th March 2005, 04:29 PM

Note that yesterday - "Sanjay Nirupam" a "North-indian" Shiv Sena MP, has resigned from his LS seat, in protest of Bal Thackeray's anti-northie Policies!!!!!!!!!

Wonder why the Marathis are never called "terrorists" or "separatists" by the hindi-wallahs!!! :lol:

http://in.rediff.com/news/2005/mar/10inter1.htm

Sanjay Nirupam tells why he quit the Sena.

Roshan

11th March 2005, 04:57 PM

geno,

Just finished reading your response. Great piece of work all in all !!!! :D I'm going to save the whole thing as it contains a wealth of information. Well done :thumbsup:

Roshan

11th March 2005, 05:05 PM

Roshan - thanks for your view on this subject; that's very valuable as it presents the views of tamils not living in the "Tamil mainland", and so as a fairly representative view of expatriates and tamil natives, who dont need to bother about the "linguistic quagmire" which Indian tamils have to engage with! :D

Thanks geno :D Today in the morning I read an interview of Mr.Kalanithi Maaran. In that he had said - the secret of his success lies on satisfying the viewers' tastes. He says 'aandipatti tea kadai vaithiruppavarilirunthu america soft ware engineer varai thirupthi padutha vENdiyuLLathu'. That's what I was trying to emphasize.

Cinefan

11th March 2005, 05:30 PM

2. A Kannadiga(?) writes this column; what's more interesting to note is that this guy is an alleged "Sympathiser" with the "right-wing" groups of India! ( he seems to have defended the IDRF org. of the USA in indian newsgroups, when it was banned as a "Orgn. funding hate" by the US State dept)

http://www.sulekha.com/expressions/column.asp?cid=99549

Why the emphasis on" kannadiga"&"sympathiser of right wing groups"?Are you telling that all kannadigas&right wing symphatisers are chauvinists of somekind?

geno

11th March 2005, 07:08 PM

Cinefan,

Why the emphasis on" kannadiga"&"sympathiser of right wing groups"?Are you telling that all kannadigas&right wing symphatisers are chauvinists of somekind?

No I donno why that kind of interpretation could be made!. I indicated in that post that i'm giving those 3 links purely for "academic purposes" and for presenting different kind of views which exist.

The first link was the constituent assembly debates, the 3rd one was witten (it seems) by a "Thamizhan" who happened to be a "Hindi lover" but "hater of hindi chauvinism".

The 2nd one was from a Kannadiga (about that fact that i've tried to just be speculative with that question mark) - as indicating his mother tongue. Thats all.

I've previously indicated in my post that Periyar was a Kannadiga too!

And that "sympathiser" with the right-wing groups description - should be taken to be just that a loose description; as when we make a statement like - "Hindu" N. Ram - is a leftist, and seems to be a sympathiser of China.

That was not "Judgmental" but merely to give an indication of "which socio-political camp" the writer "might" belong.

I have already stated it and i'd state again : Inspite of our differing "Political Idealogies" - all Indians, from all parts of the political divide, need to work together in this vital issue of Official Language(s) of the Indian union.

And one more thing was a fact - that "usually" right-wing groups - are "thought of" to be More in Favor of a "Uniform Language" for the Indian union.

But I have also went on record stating - that even the more "Secular-minded" Parties like the SP of Mulayam, does have a very strident view regarding making Hindi as the Official language of the Indian union.

SO, i guess i have been fair and not indictive of any one particular group in this issue. :)

geno

11th March 2005, 07:26 PM

certain sections like :

The "confederation of Dravidian States" plan of the DMK - after the reorganisation, proposing that Madras State, Andhra, Karnataka and Kerala - can secede in "phases" - from the indian union and then form a "Dravidian Confederation" - was not reciprocated by our dravidian brothers!

validate my previous post as to why this moment didn't cut much ice with other south indian states.

JG,

I have dwelt on the various reasons which led to the parting-of-ways of other dravidian groups from the TN - on this seccession issue, in length.

But once the seeds of distrust was sown, it was easy for extraneous elements to crack open any unity/consensus left
in the dravidian movement then. It was unfortunate, and blaming the only thamizh-dravidians isn't fair - it was a collective failure.

I cannot argue with the fact that CMP inclusion and declaration of "Thamizh" as a classical languages are major successes, but the threat of hindi domination still exists and in future ppl of other languages should work united to face that challenge.

Thats pretty much the truth and "Federal" nature of the Indian Constitution needs to be re-inforced, by all political parties, which requires enormous amounts of goodwill and co-operation. Hope the future holds a better environ for these issues to be sorted out :)

Roshan,

Thanks for your thoughts! :D

cinefan,

thanks for that link on Sanjay :)

Ilavenil

12th March 2005, 05:50 AM

Geno,

Migavum arputhamana villakkangall. Neengal kudutha" link"um padithaen. Ithaepol pala ariyakaruthukkai ungallidamirrunthu yethirparkkum oru thamizhachi.

Mad Max

13th March 2005, 02:21 AM

Are you telling that all kannadigas & right wing symphatisers are chauvinists of somekind?

I don't know about kannadigas, but are you saying that right-wing sympathizers aren't chauvinists?

I say unequivocally that right-wing sympathizers (fascists & nazis) are not only chauvinists, but criminals who should be hunted down and locked up, or better yet, hanged from the gibbet, for the sport of vultures and other carrion.

geno

13th March 2005, 03:27 AM

Ilavenil!!

nanRigaL!!! :D

Shakthiprabha.

16th March 2005, 02:52 PM

:( Due to lack of time, I am unable to go thro
posts.

For personal reasons,
I shall be absent for 2 months from the hub
(Good riddance ! eh?!)

So , happy HINDIYING OR anti-HINDIYING.

:p

oohlala

17th March 2005, 01:23 AM

it is not compelsory to learn hindi and there is no such rule. languages are just to express ourself. hindi is also one among the other languages. now they have made tamil as "semmozhi" how many ppl know that and how many hindi speakin ppl know that. they just know to mock at other language speakers. ppl in U.P and Bihar are only proud to speak hindi. i put up in delhi here there are many ppl who cant even speak any other other languages other than hindi. and in a multi lingual county like india you cannot live with knowing only one language. there are ppl who say that i wont speak any other language other than their mothe tongue. then they have 2 sit inside their house only. learning other languages lets us to know more about their particular culture in deep. but i like to say that makin hindi alone as india's national language is Indira Gandhi's blunder. she did it cos she is frm U.P and hindi has no literature value than any other language.

saji

17th March 2005, 04:18 PM

Hey Oohlala,

FYI, Indira Gandhi is a kashmiri.
Oh God, does the hub need one more hindi basher?

blahblah

17th March 2005, 04:35 PM

Hey Oohlala,

FYI, Indira Gandhi is a kashmiri.
Oh God, does the hub need one more hindi basher?

Indira Gandhi a Kashmiri?Please ,I beg you please ,kill me or let me kill myself,will you?

And Oohlala,we are not opposed to learnig other languages and all that stuff.We are simply opposed to imposing a failed language of a minority on more vibrant cultures! :x

oohlala

17th March 2005, 04:46 PM

Hey Oohlala,

FYI, Indira Gandhi is a kashmiri.
Oh God, does the hub need one more hindi basher?

Guess there is another member who slept in history class in school...

saji

17th March 2005, 05:22 PM

Come on blah blah, everybody knows that Jawaharlal Nehru was a Kashmiri Pundit.

Roshan

17th March 2005, 05:27 PM

:banghead: :banghead:

saji

18th March 2005, 01:38 AM

http://www.rediff.com/news/2004/jun/16spec3.htm FYI Blah Blah, Roshan and Oohlala, Read this article where it is informed abt Nehru being a Kashmiri.

Both were born in Allahabad, but that doesnt make them a UP-ite, does it?

Badri

18th March 2005, 06:34 AM

I thought everyone knew Nehru was a Kashmiri Pundit...

Here's another link if it would help...it deals with Motilal Nehru, JN's father...thus unambigously solving the origin issue (if it was an issue, that is) The Nehrus were orginally from Kashmir, but had settled in Delhi.

http://www.bhagatsingh.com/pandit_motilal_nehru.htm

oohlala

18th March 2005, 11:42 AM

Ok...Ok...Well i too had the habit of sleeping in classes... :oops:
:huh:

blahblah

18th March 2005, 11:55 AM

Oh come on guys!No one is questioning Indira's Pundit ancestry and all that stuff.The point is she is as much a Kashmiri as Ram Naresh Sarwan is an Indian :x

Badri

18th March 2005, 11:56 AM

Who on Earth is Ram Naresh Sarwan? :?:

blahblah

18th March 2005, 11:56 AM

Sorry accidentally repeated the post.Scorpio Mamma jumped in and I cant delete this.What about you bigbro NOV? :wink:

scorpio

18th March 2005, 12:01 PM

Who on Earth is Ram Naresh Sarwan? :?:

There is a game called Cricket, played with much interest, hype and hoopla, ever heard of it??

There are small islands in the Carribean, one of them called West Indies also plays the game... Still it doesn't ring a bell??

Badri

18th March 2005, 12:03 PM

Ah Cricket!! No, I strictly adhere to Bernard Shaw's opinion of the game...you do know what that is, dont you?

scorpio

18th March 2005, 12:05 PM

Yeah, I am happy atleast not to be one of those eleven fools who get roasted all day in the field! :wink:

blahblah

18th March 2005, 12:07 PM

So Hindi is such a great topic.See where it takes us all?Kashmir,Ex PMs of India.Cricket and Bernard Shaw. :lol:

Badri

18th March 2005, 12:09 PM

Personally, I am happy we are not fighting tooth and nail for a change!! Nice break, what? Now, you can all get back to your fighting

Roshan

18th March 2005, 12:33 PM

hahaha blahblah, badri and scorpio.. i really enjoyed your chit chats !! :lol:

Ilavenil

19th March 2005, 06:05 AM

Even I didn't know Nehru's family was from Kashmir. See, we might not know what we would learn from where.

Shekhar

19th March 2005, 09:29 AM

There are small islands in the Carribean, one of them called West Indies also plays the game

West Indies is not a single island, nor is it a country. Only for the sake of cricket, 5 Carribean island nations have jointly formed a cricket board and play under the banner of West Indies.

Shanmugham

1st January 2012, 02:16 PM

Good...

Shanmugham

1st January 2012, 02:27 PM

geno,
welcome back to this group :D

Hindi offers one the opportunity to move around India as much as one like. If one is so tamil-minded so as to neglect a national lang, he is bound to shoot himself in the foot.

Its not as if other states dont love their mother tongue. But they atleast have no reservations against learning Hindi, it doesnt make them like their mother tongue any less. As far as I know, 90% of the TN guys I have met outside TN have often said "Ellam indha karunanidhi pannina velai, orey thalavaliya poachu".
(Needless to say, this is not a diatribe against MK but a flawed system)..

All the problems would be solved if Tamil and Hindi are made as National languages and English as Official language of Indian union.. The southies wont blame the Northies and the Northies wont blame the southies.. There would be real cultural integration..