Are Tamil and Malayalam are separated Sisters?? [Archive]

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Ganika

11th February 2005, 09:28 AM

after moving from singapore to chennai, what I have noticed is I could speak in Malayalam still able to converse with a tamilian. Most of the words are same - esp. Market things!

Are they same? What is the justification for the separatedness!

Ganika Nair

virarajendra

11th February 2005, 11:29 AM

Dear Mr Nair,

We understand from various sources that during the first century A.D. the Malayalam Language was not in existance in the present Kerala region, but it was only the Tamil Language.

The region was then called the "Chera Nadu".

We have also come to know from these sources, that the first & second century kings of Kerala were Tamil speaking, which continued to be the language of the region untill the early 10th century.

It was from the 10th century onwards the new language called Malayalam gradually came into existance.

All these need further study & research.

At least to know a little on the extent to which the Tamil Language was known in Kerala during the 10th century, read my posting in this Hub titled,

"Medieval Chola Empire and it's relations with Kerala"

I will very soon post in this Hub an article titled,

"A Study on the Royal Dynasties of Kerala in the First and the Second Centuries A.D." which will throw more light in this connection.

Sandeep

11th February 2005, 04:15 PM

Malayalam said to be the result of Sankrit and Arabic influence on Tamil.

Our Malayalam being so young to Tamil you could call malayalam daughter of Tamil.

blahblah

11th February 2005, 07:46 PM

[quote="virarajendra"]Dear Mr Nair,

Why Nair Sir?I saw siome one else there! :lol:

destiny's_song2324

13th February 2005, 02:02 AM

Malayalam said to be the result of Sankrit and Arabic influence on Tamil.

Our Malayalam being so young to Tamil you could call malayalam daughter of Tamil.

so true!!!

I also have a friend who's from chennai and when ever we don't want any1 else understanding us, we talk in a mixture of tamil and malayalam and we still get the point across!!

aravindhan

13th February 2005, 03:04 AM

I also have a friend who's from chennai and when ever we don't want any1 else understanding us, we talk in a mixture of tamil and malayalam and we still get the point across!!
Yeah, that's what my Malayalee cousins and I used to do when I in the process of becoming reasonably fluent in Malayalam. Of course, that produced the occasional burst of hilarity, like when one of them said: "Un samsaram romba mosam".

15th February 2005, 12:57 PM

Hi there everyone....
Can someone tell me what is the meaning of "tendi" and "pulle" in Malayalam.... I hear this actor Jayaram always uses these words in his speech..

Sandeep

15th February 2005, 02:28 PM

RK,

There was a whole topic about "Thendi". You seem to have missed that.

Thendi means Loafer. "Pulle" means Grass. Used to point out the insignificance of the other person.

17th February 2005, 06:00 AM

Hi Sandeep,
Thanks for your info... I didn't know there was a discussion on thendi.. Anyway thanks again for your enlighten, for I thought that tendi & pulle are vulgar words!
"Vallare nanni"

gaddeswarup

13th June 2005, 10:31 PM

There is an article by Sheldon Pollock in 1995 which poses this question of bifurcation of Malayalam from Tamil and of Telugu from Kannada a few centuries earlier (see e.g. page 130 of the artcle):
http://dsal.uchicago.edu/books/socialscientist/pager.html?objectid=HN681.S597_269-71_132.gif
But as far as I can see there are more questions than answers in this artcle and I do not know of any later research. Regards,
swarup

jaiganes

14th June 2005, 08:07 AM

I was watching Kiran TV from some mallu music and then they showed a song from the movie "Kannagi". An amazing song detailing the life of Kannagi, the female deity who is worshipped by both Thamizars and Malayalees. The cute thing about that is all that history before branching has been absorbed and owned by Malayalees without discrimination. That is one great example of kinship between two cultures.

lordstanher

14th June 2005, 08:34 PM

I once heard sumone saying tat Malyalam is nothing but pure Tamil......ne further comments/inputs on this.....?

Idiappam

14th June 2005, 10:45 PM

I once heard sumone saying tat Malyalam is nothing but pure Tamil......ne further comments/inputs on this.....?

Translate this to Malayaalam, someone! Maybe we can study the differences!

1. Avan varavillai. (He did not come)
2. Avan seiyavillai. (He did not do)
3. Naan muyaRchi seithEn. (I tried)
4. mika veppamAi irukkirathu. (It is very hot)

Sowmya

18th June 2005, 04:18 AM

Hi all
Very interesting thread indeed..If you hear malayalam any person well versed in sanskrit will acknowledge the fact that it has sanskrit words in it.. and some tamil words as well.A very pleasant language indeed :D
Moreover malayalees are very good in sanskrit and manage to grasp any language very easily cos of the complexity of their language and the tough pronounciation of words.

blahblah

6th July 2005, 04:00 PM

Idiappam

8th July 2005, 12:07 AM

so from your translation Mr Blah Blah we see only one sanskrit word 'sramichu'.

So how now, Sowmya???

Shoba

8th July 2005, 08:39 AM

Friends,

Thamizh is Malayalam's mother and Samskritham her father. Before the present India was divided into regions based on language, the whole of South India had a common enough language, which is apparent in South Indian arts & music.

Post 1956, when India was sliced up, there was an urge to purge one's language of foreign influence, and the quest for 'purity' and the endless debate on who came about first, started. Politics, I'm sure many of you will acknowledge, played and is still playing a heavy role on that last point I made.

As for Sowmya's point, I agree with her 100%. Having said that, Malayalam is not exclusively morphed from Samskritham. It's just that the influence has been pretty strong, clouding the once strong Thamizh influence.

In Moonnaar, the locals switch easily from Malayalam to Thamizh..and in the Sultan Bathery area, locals interchange 4 languages-Malayalam, Thamizh, Kannadam and the dialect spoken by Kurumans (the tribals), effortlessly!

We are ultimately South Indians..and we will inevitably have common words and phrases. This purification process worries me and reminds me of what the Skin Heads in Europe are doing.

Shoba

Uthappam

12th July 2005, 10:39 AM

This purification process worries me and reminds me of what the Skin Heads in Europe are doing.

What are the Skin Heads doing down there in Europe? And why does purification worry you?

Shoba

12th July 2005, 11:20 AM

This purification process worries me and reminds me of what the Skin Heads in Europe are doing.

What are the Skin Heads doing down there in Europe? And why does purification worry you?

Ah...me and my own worries, let it be, let it be...

Shoba :)

Kaaththaadi

12th July 2005, 07:07 PM

The only Skinheads in India I am worried about are Hare Rama Hara Krishna Devotees. But they are harmless, I guess.

Hyderbadi

13th July 2005, 09:52 AM

....
We are ultimately South Indians..and we will inevitably have common words and phrases. This purification process worries me and reminds me of what the Skin Heads in Europe are doing.

Shoba

Neither southern nor norhtern India had a common langauge before partition. We are INDIANS, not south Indians or north Indians. All Indian languages, from Assamese to Tulu, have many things in common. My mother tongue is Telugu and i ahve noticed that it has many Sanskrit words and it shares many words with languages like Hindi, Marathi, Kannada and Oriya...but it does not share many things with Malayalam and Tamil...even though it is spoken in South-Central India.

Uthappam

13th July 2005, 03:46 PM

My mother tongue is Telugu and i ahve noticed that it has many Sanskrit words and it shares many words with languages like Hindi, Marathi, Kannada and Oriya...but it does not share many things with Malayalam and Tamil...even though it is spoken in South-Central India.

Great! Mr Hyderbadi, need your help! Can you tell me roughly what this Telugu verse means. Thanks!

amtaramgamamdu naparaadhamulu cEsi
mamcivaanivalene manujuDumDu
itaru leRugakunna niiSvaruDeRugaDaa?
viSwadaaBiraama vinuravEma.

Ilavenil

13th July 2005, 04:56 PM

I think malayalam is the only language you don't need to learn to understand if you are a tamilian. I don't know if Sanskrit speaking! Sanskritarian(I know they don't exist) will understand Malayalam as a Tamilian does. Coimabatore/palakadu and Kanyakumari Districts have more mixture of malayalam and tamil languages. But both pure malayalies and tamilians can understand that without any trouble. I really doubt if telugu spoken in chennai(believe me, there are so many of them) and in chittor area is the same as that of telugu spoken in Andra.

unni

15th July 2005, 09:48 AM

can someone please translate this to tamil for me?

1. ethrayum pettannu oru theerumanam avishamanu
( we need a decision a.s.a.p)

2. arum ariyan padilla
( no one should know)

3. enniku athu ottum ishtamalla
( i dont like that one bit)

4. veettil onnum cheyan illa athu konda njan ingottu vanne
(there is nothing to do at home so i came over here)

5. enniku payankara veshappu
( i am so hungry)

i love to listen to tamil. being malayali i love trying to make out what is being said. Tamil movies are my fav. to watch. but i think tamil is a more direct language than malayalam..where there is rarely more than one way to say something. can somebody teach me some regular formal greetings and how to start a small convo. in tamil?

rajraj

15th July 2005, 10:23 AM

can someone please translate this to tamil for me?

1. ethrayum pettannu oru theerumanam avishamanu
( we need a decision a.s.a.p)

* udanadiyaaga oru mudivu/theermaanam thevai/avasiyam

2. arum ariyan padilla
( no one should know)

* yaarum ariya koodaadhu/padaadhu

3. enniku athu ottum ishtamalla
( i dont like that one bit)

* enakku athu ottu mothamaaga /siridhum pidikkavillai/ishtamillai

4. veettil onnum cheyan illa athu konda njan ingottu vanne
(there is nothing to do at home so i came over here)

* veettil ondrum seyya/seivadharkku illai. athanaal naan inge vandhen

5. enniku payankara veshappu
( i am so hungry)

* enakku kadumaiyaana/bayankaramaana pasi

i love to listen to tamil. being malayali i love trying to make out what is being said. Tamil movies are my fav. to watch. but i think tamil is a more direct language than malayalam..where there is rarely more than one way to say something. can somebody teach me some regular formal greetings and how to start a small convo. in tamil?

* My translation. There was a time, about fifty yearsback, when Tamil had a lot of Sanskrit words. It has been cleaned up a lot.

Ilavenil

16th July 2005, 07:31 PM

[Hi Unni,

Here you go. I have tried find the tamil words that are similar than that are commonly used. But the tamil I have used is acceptable too.

1. ethrayum pettannu oru theerumanam avishamanu
( we need a decision a.s.a.p)
Evalavo vegamagavavathu oru theermanathirkku varuvathu avasiyamagum.

2. arum ariyan padilla
( no one should know)
Yarum arinthuvida kudathu

3. enniku athu ottum ishtamalla
( i dont like that one bit)
Yenakku athu thulikuda ishtamillai.

4. veettil onnum cheyan illa athu konda njan ingottu vanne
(there is nothing to do at home so i came over here)
Veetil onrum seiyavendiyathilai, athanal naan ingu vanthaen.

5. enniku payankara veshappu
( i am so hungry)
Ennaku payangra pasi.

rajraj

16th July 2005, 08:25 PM

iLavenil: Did you see my translation in the previous post marked with * ? :)

Uthappam

16th July 2005, 09:51 PM

1. ethrayum pettannu oru theerumanam avishamanu
( we need a decision a.s.a.p)
Solli tholadaa nayE!

2. arum ariyan padilla
( no one should know)
kammunnu iru daa nayE!

3. enniku athu ottum ishtamalla
( i dont like that one bit)
kumattuthu, naatham thangale!

4. veettil onnum cheyan illa athu konda njan ingottu vanne
(there is nothing to do at home so i came over here)
vootukkari veliyE poi irukkaa, athaan inge vanthu....

5. enniku payankara veshappu
( i am so hungry)
vavutha killuthu!

Ilavenil

17th July 2005, 01:48 AM

iLavenil: Did you see my translation in the previous post marked with * ? :)

Sorry, ippothan parthen, quote pannirirunthathal miss paniten. Correct-a than translate pannirrukenga, naan than mudinjavarikkum tamil/malayalam ore words kidakuthanu parthen.

aravindhan

22nd July 2005, 03:34 AM

Neither southern nor norhtern India had a common langauge before partition.
Not a common mother tongue, no. There was, however, a region (roughly from the Gangetic plains to the Deccan) where Hindustani (which is not the same as modern Hindi) was a lingua franca, at least as far as trade was concerned.

My mother tongue is Telugu and i ahve noticed that it has many Sanskrit words and it shares many words with languages like Hindi, Marathi, Kannada and Oriya...but it does not share many things with Malayalam and Tamil...even though it is spoken in South-Central India.
It depends on what you're looking for. The core vocabulary in Telugu is clearly related to Malayalam and Tamil, and not to Sanskrit. Let's take a few examples:

Telugu Tamil Sanskrit
amma amma matr
aavu aa go
pandi panRi varaaha
nenu naan aham
ODa ODam navam
naaluka naakku jinvhaa
tala thalai shira
paalu paal dugda

And so on. Telugu and Tamil separated over 2500 years ago so obviously they have moved apart, but it is fairly clear that they have common roots.

gaddeswarup

22nd July 2005, 04:58 AM

[tscii:9b9c3d5299]Aravindhan wrote:
" Telugu and Tamil separated over 2500 years ago so obviously they have moved apart, but it is fairly clear that they have common roots."

Strangely I met several Telugus who think that Telugu is derived from Samskrit. Here is an URL to a recent book on Dravidian languages and some quote about it:
http://www.cambridge.org/uk/catalogue/catalogue.asp?isbn=0521771110
The Dravidian Languages
Series: Cambridge Language Surveys

Bhadriraju Krishnamurti
University of Hyderabad, India

The Dravidian languages are spoken by over 200 million people in South Asia and in Diaspora communities around the world, and constitute the world’s fifth largest language family. It consists of about 26 languages in total including Tamil, Malayalam, Kannada and Telugu, as well as over 20 non-literary languages. In this book, Bhadriraju Krishnamurti, one of the most eminent Dravidianists of our time, provides a comprehensive study of the phonological and grammatical structure of the whole Dravidian family from different aspects. He describes its history and writing systems, discusses its structure and typology, and considers its lexicon. Distant and more recent contacts between Dravidian and other language groups are also discussed. With its comprehensive coverage this book will be welcomed by all students of Dravidian languages and will be of interest to linguists in various branches of the discipline as well as Indologists.

• The Dravidian language family covers several widely spoken South Asian languages (including Tamil); in all there are some 200 million speakers of these languages

• The author, one of the most eminent scholars in this field, has held visiting appointments in the US, Australia and Japan, and is a member of the Indian National Academy of Letters

• The book will be of interest to linguists in various branches of the discipline, and also to Indologists

Contents
1. Introduction; 2. Phonology: descriptive; 3. The writing systems of the literary languages; 4. Phonology: historical and comparative; 5. Word formation: roots, stems, formative and derivational suffixes; 6. Nouns; 7. The verb; 8. Adjectives, adverbs and clitics; 9. Syntax; 10. Lexicon; 11. Conclusions.

Review
' … handled with great lucidity … DL is of interest to a wide range of scholars and students of language … Because of the thorough and meticulous nature of the analysis, it is an important contribution to the theory of comparative reconstruction … a timely work of great importance. The merits of the book can perhaps best be summarized by stating that, after almost a century and a half, Caldwell's great work has at last been superseded.'

In addition, there is a languages institute in Bangalore:
http://www.languageinindia.com/index.html
which regularly publishes articles on Indian languages.
Swarup
...................
[/tscii:9b9c3d5299]

solomon

1st August 2005, 03:01 PM

Friends,

I saw a simple and interesting Discussion and I just give you some thing for Thought.

Earliest of Malayalam Writing is from 8th/9th Century Copper Plate- Tamara Sasanam Given by Chera King to Peal Merchants, and as per Malayalam Linguistic Researchers Malayalam was spoken from Early 2nd Century CE onwards.

Similarly other Telugu and Kannada- as per the Linguistic Researchers of respective Languages- Telugu speaking was in Vouge from 1000BCE and Kannada from 500BCE.

Sangam Literature (300BCE-100CE) Clearly tells presence of Telugu as Vadugu then, even TholKappiyam Payiram (150-200BCE) tells border to Tamil Speaking as ThiruVengadam - or Tiruppathi.

Ancient Stone Inscription found in Tamilnadu had words of all these languages as most of them or in Collquial Tamil.

Coming To Malayalam Nadu or Kerala - The SeaCoastal Kerala- such as Kochi-Kollam-Alapuzha- Kodungallore etrc., have been researched fully by Indian Archealogical Dept and found that, The Human Occupation in this Lands started only later than 700CE and probably were Below Sea till then.
MosesMohammed Solomon

ramraghav

1st August 2005, 10:32 PM

Please check you geography Solomon, Kerala has always been a part of the continental Indian plate.

solomon

2nd August 2005, 04:14 PM

Dear Ramraghav,

I thank you for your suggestion, and I am quoting from Authentic research opinions of K.V.Raman, and As we saw Druring Recent Sunami- Water Backed out of Landmass and Submerged some other Regions, Like Tiruchendur and Mahabalipuram water went back to sea and Places like Karaikal, Velankanni suffered by Land coming into Landmass.

Now after Sunami- New Temples of 8th Cen, submerged in Sea of Pallavas, have come out , Probably Water Pulled out in the Western Coast- and came to Eastern Coast submerging Mahabalipuram.

Archealogists have with Great Enthusiasm tried Kodungallore and other blets and everywhere - VIRGIN SOIL found at 700BCE levels- i.e., Humankinds's first occupation starts then- you find Bangles etc., unperishable parts.

I Don't mean Entire Kerala, but Entire Coastal Belt.

For example the Musiris mentioned In Sangam Lit. is still not identified, mostly may be Mangalore, So Chera Nadu of ANCIEnt Tamils were Coimbatore,Salem, Darmapuri, Palakkad, and Near Kumari zones and Hilly Western Ghats.

This Landmass being recovered is called as Parasuramar doing it in Puranas.

MosesMohammedSolomon

Malayalathaan

21st August 2005, 12:48 AM

There is without a doubt, that Malayalam is the daughter of Tamil, there are so many words that we use in Malayalam that are exactly the same in Tamil, and not only that, some of those words not used in Tamil at all that are used in Malayalam, came from classical Tamil! Words like "kaLi" (which means play), "patti" (old Tamil world for dog), "para" (derived from "parai", as in "parai melam" which means to tell), etc.

A malayalee has no problem understanding Tamil, all the Malayalee actors/actresses can speak fluent Tamil like a true Tamilian, you cannot say the same with fellow South Indians from other states, still you have to translate for them. If you watch all the Malayalam movies, esp. lately, they are filmed in the Kerala/TN border, and half of the movie is in Tamil, with no subtitles.[/u]

skanthan

20th June 2006, 05:26 PM

Malayalathaan,

Oh?? I thought that also many Telugu people spoke Tamil as their second language! Also, from what I understand, the Telugu spoken in area close to Tamil Nadu, ie: Tirupati and Nellore is heavily mixed with words from Tamil. Very different from the common everyday colloquial Telugu which is spoken and more so different from the formal, Sanskritzed Telugu.

Malayalathaan

23rd June 2006, 07:20 PM

Skanthavel,

If that is the case, go to Palakkad in Kerala. The Malayalam spoken in Palakkad is heavily mixed with Tamil as well.
Same thing goes from Thiruvananthapuram district and southward; this applies to all border areas with Tamil Nadu.
There is a Malayalam movie called "Rajamanickam", which was the biggest hit in Kerala, and Mammooty spoke Thiruvananthapuram dialect.
Another thing, Tirupati/Tirumala areas are ancient Tamil territories, so was Palakkad, there are many Thamizhans living in Palakkad, let alone Kerala. The closeness of Kerala to Tamil Nadu is that Kerala used to be a Tamil speaking area, comprised of Cherans and Pandyans.
If you put a list of words in Telugu, Tamil, and Malayalam, the majority of similarities are between Malayalam and Tamil.

mahadevan

24th June 2006, 12:17 AM

Solomon wrote : Sangam Literature (300BCE-100CE) Clearly tells presence of Telugu as Vadugu then, even TholKappiyam Payiram (150-200BCE) tells border to Tamil Speaking as ThiruVengadam - or Tiruppathi.

Solomon you are just exposing just your telugu brahmin identity, Why do you learn Tamil lit ? just to find fault with it ? however much you cook facts you cannot disprove the antiquity and greatness of Tamil !

Braandan

30th June 2006, 12:57 PM