puthiya MaathavikaL

[Oldposts]

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Topic started by Pavalamani Pragasam (pavalamani_pragasam@yahoo.com) (@ 220.226.8.149) on Wed Mar 17 02:37:23 EST 2004.




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[Oldposts]

Old responses (http://forumhub.com/poems/15120.6353.02.37.23.html)

[Oldposts]

ukw,

hope You didnt misconstrue me and thanx :=)

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Not at all! :-)))))

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My doctor sister shares with me her concern over the reckless pattern of clinical practice EVERYWHERE. My children & their spouses (my 1st daughter-in-law's father & brother are doctors) love to sit into the night at the rare get-togethers at our place discussing all technical books & movies. Robin Cook & Michael Christen are among our favourites. We rue together the unethical practices in the medical field, the world over.Of course I realise in all humility that I have to go a long way yet to go to improve my "half-baked knowledge". What else are we going to do the rest of our lives? LEARN!LEARN!LEARN!People like me with "little knowledge" shall take the back seat letting people bursting with knowledge do the speculating, embarrassing etc etc etc!!! Ah! I remember to my solace, my microwave manual says "it is better to be under-cooked than over-cooked"! HA!Ha!HA! By that standard I seem to be the BETTER one!!!

More seriously, Srimangai, I know "The Hindu" which is a prestigious newspaper here in TAmil NAdu has limited circulation in your place. I read the article in today's Hindu. For your clarification, I reproduce here more from the report:

"The British drug giant GlaxoSmithKline is embroiled in the scandal. The firm sponsored experiments on the children from Incarnation Children's Centre, a New York care home that specialises in treating HIV sufferers and is run by Catholic charities.
The children had either been infected with HIV or born to HIV-positive mothers. Their parents were dead, untraceable or deemed unfit to look after them. According to documents, Glaxo has sponsored at least four medical trials since 1995 using Hispanic & black children at Incarnation. The documents give details of all clinical trials in the U.S. and reveal the experiments sponsored by Glaxo were designed to test the "safety and tolerance" of AIDS medications, some of which have potentially dangerous side effects. Glaxo manufactures a number of drugs designed to treat HIV, including AZT.
Normally trials on children would require parental consent but, as the infants are in care, New York's authorities hold that role.
The city health department has launched an investigation into claims that more than 100 children at Incarnation were used in 36 experiments - at least four co-sponsored by Glaxo. Some of these trials were designed to test the 'toxicity' of AIDS medications. One involved giving children as young as four a high-dosage cocktail of seven drugs at one time. Another looked at the reaction in six-month-old babies to a double dose of measles vaccine. Most experiments were funded by federal agencies like the NAtional Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases. Until now Glaxo's role had not emerged.
In 1997 an experiment co-sponsored by Glaxo used children from Incarnation to "obtain tolerance, safety and pharmacokinetic" data for Herpes drugs. In a more recent experiment, the children were used to test AZT. A third experiment sponsored by Glaxo and the U.S.drug firm Pfizer investigated the "long-term safety" of anti-bacterial drugs on three-month-old babies. The medical establishment has defended the trials arguing they enabled these children to obtain state-of-the-art therapy they would otherwise not have received for potentially fatal illnesses.
However, health campaigners argue there is a difference between providing latest drugs and experimentation. They claim many of the experiments were "phase 1 trials" - among the most risky - and that HIV tests for babies were not a reliable indicator of actual infection and therefore toxic drugs could have been given to healthy infants. HIV drugs are similar to those used in chemotherapy and can have serious side effects.
Vera Sharav, president of the Alliance for Human Research Protection, said the children had been treated like "laboratory animals"..

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PP:

I dont even think we have the RIGHT to expt on HEALTHY ANIMALS?

Wh gave the RIGHT to do THAT? I ask myself and others those who call that as SACRIFICE.

All I am saying is the LAW is much better in WEST and THERE is no CHILD-LABOR in WEST and so they do not need to take MOVIES like KUTTY.

We are definitely not better than them. Did you ever heard of Dr. Manorama of Madurai who was arrested for stealing kidneys? It never happened in west to my knowledge at least.

Why do you think we are better as far as HuMAN RIGHTS are concerned?

[Oldposts]

*health campaigners argue there is a difference between providing latest drugs and experimentation.*

They "ARGUE"


*They claim many of the experiments were "phase 1 trials" - among the most risky - and that HIV tests for babies were not a reliable indicator of actual infection and therefore toxic drugs could have been given to healthy infants.*

They "CLAIM"


*HIV drugs are similar to those used in chemotherapy and can have serious side effects. *

I think it is "UNTRUE"

*children had been treated like "laboratory animals"..*

Why is that Healthy ANIMALS are CHEAP?

I dont think God made them for the HUMAN USE as people claim.

PP: Everything is debatable here. I am sure Smithkline-Glaxo is not that STUPID enough to do some illegal thing and run into trouble because they dont want LOSE their MONEY and bring down their STOCK-Price and,

it is all about MONEY and not about humanity here! That is how things work in West, unfortunately.

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*Of course I realise in all humility that I have to go a long way yet to go to improve my "half-baked knowledge". What else are we going to do the rest of our lives? LEARN!LEARN!LEARN!People like me with "little knowledge" shall take the back seat letting people bursting with knowledge do the speculating, embarrassing etc etc etc!!*

I used the terms like *half-backed knowledge and little knowledge* in order to criticize Sudhakar's *poor SPECULATION about GENO and his IP.*

Just for your clarification.

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Actually I shouldn't condescend to answer people who use objectionable, indecent & unfair language. Riding high on a bunch of prejudices, lording over the place, making rash & untrue comments drags down this thread to the level of some other filth-filled threads.TN's "naiyaaNdi" was enjoyable & its implication very much relevant. Everyone is entitled to his opinions.A philanthropic person like Suresh need not imagine a depressed woman's tale-unpardonable accusation, passed by without objection for the sake of utmost forbearance. Now, it is gentlemanly Srimangai who gets abused.( I doubt if he has ever visited some of those notoriously reeking threads!)
Hello, everybody here, dont take law into your hands!For your kind information,if you cant conduct yourself with civility, if you must arrogantly throw to winds all norms of decent discussion, you are succeeding in making yourselves laughing-stocks & pure nuisances.Your profound "wisdom" & full-baked knowledge dont give you the liberty to say anything, to anybody. We are here to seek solutions to the rampant social evils around us with genuine concern. We are not blind to facts, are not ignorant of what is happening around us, under our noses & across the globe. Cant you see we are really disturbed-"intelligently" & "altruistically"? This is a public forum for discussions & not a "mIn santhai"!

[Oldposts]

Good to see the number of participants increasing :-)

I must first second PP's above statement !! Personal attacks and uncivilised words by the people who mostly talk and think about "civilized" culture has to be totally avoided if we are genuine in keeping this thread alive. Further please do not try to make any personal remarks or attacks based on what's happening else where or how a person behaves elsewhere. And please remeber that every one cannot agree or rather 'jAlrA adichufy', with a particular person's view all the time just because they are friends or belong to a particular group. Once we start discussing on a particualr topic we must try to consider ourselves completely NEW and go on talking with an open mind without having any pre conceived ideas or opninions. If that's not there , then we cannot see any healthy and valuable discussions. 'COMPARATIVELY' people like Suresh, Shakthi and Akil ( we miss him a lot) have that kind of a mentality and I really appreciate that ( no offense meant on others please).

geno,
Hats off for that wonderful post which listed out all kind of injustice shown towards women. I agree with your views 100%. But it's better and useful if we could look into those problems on a case by case basis rather than bringing in to justify or oppose another problem.


>>And what do the city-living culture saviours do????!!!

Cry wolf over "live-ins"!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm bedazzled for words!!!! >>


IMHO, I think that was completely unnecesssary and was kind of RUDE. Especially the term "crying wolf". You clearly know that we were discussing on 'live-in' and that's why we were talking about it. It's simple as that. If the topic had been the "injustice towards women" then we would have been glad to speak about it. And remember when the homo sexual issue was braught in you were not happy about it because you thought it was a different issue which was not relevant to the topic that we were discussing. I whole heartedly agree with that and when you made a request to leave the "homo sexual" matter alone, we all respected your view and stopped discussing on it any further. I still do not understand what made you say "cryin-wolf". Sorry I'm really hurt :-(.
================================================== ====

[Oldposts]

Roshan

I have already answered your query. This has nothing to do with personlaities and i probably overshot the boundaries in that ost because, partly due to my enthusiasm, and partly due to my own exasperation with this topic.

I have already told this here, and i am again tendering my apolgies if i seemed to be "arrogant" which i was not.

I was not arrogant but some people did "construe" that i was arrogant - which is fair becoz everyone have their own views.

That is precisely why i "thought" "paNpAdum observers" comments were a needless "naiyANdi' and i expressed my thoughts.

Hope expressing my feelings still come under the purview of 'democratic discussion'. :=)

And i hae already made clear that in the enthusiasm and animatedness - due to this topic - we need not ruffle ourselves with too much of bickerings - so i have , as i have said , "retired" myself from this topic.

:=)

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geno,
I never meant to hurt you and I do not want to see you retiring. I just wanted to say that I was also hurt by those words but it's forgotten any way :-).

Please be informed that the first para of my post is a general statement and I must be frank to say, that it has NOTHING to do with you. Though I seconded PP's views I was not trying to emphasize anything on the naiyyaandi of 'PaNpaadum Observer' ( I'm not at all interested about it and you know better) . You have been discussing some serious issues on a very mature and desciplined manner. I do enjoy reading your discussions and I'm sure all the particiapnts here will agree with me.

So please geno, do not try to refrain your self from posting here. It's a kind and humble request from your friend :-). I'm extremely sorry if I had hurt you.

[Oldposts]

*That is precisely why i "thought" "paNpAdum observers" comments were a needless "naiyANdi' and i expressed my thoughts.*

ezhavu vIttil kalyaaNa nichiyam paNNiya maathiri irunthathu, antha naiyaaNdi, honestly.

PP and R and their civilized friends Sudharshan TN and Suresh:

If I can make your thread cleaner by leaving for good, I will be the happiest one to do it. I wish you guys get more and more civilized people to discuss so that I can be proud of some of my people. I never get upset with civilized people like you, and I swear this on my mother! Good luck! Have a great day!

[Oldposts]

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:-)

µ¦†¡... þôÀÊ¡¸¢Å¢ð¼¾¡... ? õõõ†¥õõ... ¿¡É¢ø¨Ä þó¾ ¬ð¼òÐìÌ... bye...

:-)



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ukw,
I thought you had better understanding about us especially about me. And you have just picked one issue ie, TN's naiyyANdi and trying to divert the whole thing. There's much more than that ukw. Please go through all your postings from the beginning and see it for your self. I think that would be the best thing. None of us want any one to leave this thread. After all we all have been good friends through out and I'm sure we will remain good friends for ever. Remember, there are some wolves watcing us. I hope you'll understand :-). As you said once, sometimes misunderstandings lead to better understanding, especially among friends:-)

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suresh,
>> µ¦†¡... þôÀÊ¡¸¢Å¢ð¼¾¡... ? õõõ†¥õõ... ¿¡É¢ø¨Ä þó¾ ¬ð¼òÐìÌ... bye...>.

º¢Ä Å¢¼Âí¸¨Ç þó¾ Á¡¾¢Ã¢ Á¢¸ þÄÌÅ¡¸ ±Îì¸ì ÜÊ ÀìÌÅõ ±ÉìÌõ Åà §ÅñÎõ ±ýÚ À¢Ã¡÷ò¾¢ì¸¢§Èý :-) I really appreciate it suresh!


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Let me ask you this R:

Y it is always people those who are against your (or PP) view look BAD and uncivilized to you?

Is that because we (you) are all selfish?

I condemn the misinterpretaton of Sudhakar and embaraassment he caused by poorly speculating about Geno and his IP. Why that is not considered as a personal attack, anyway? Is that because we (you) are selfish?

[Oldposts]

ukw,
>> I condemn the misinterpretaton of Sudhakar and embaraassment he caused by poorly speculating about Geno and his IP. Why that is not considered as a personal attack, anyway? Is that because we (you) are selfish? >>

IMHO it has nothing to do with geno personally. I look it as a mistake. Even geno understood it and took it lightly. Why should we fight on this unnecessarily.

And ukw, I'm basically tired of all these issues. It is better if we could stop this at this point.

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*And ukw, I'm basically tired of all these issues. It is better if we could stop this at this point*

OK, :-)))))

[Oldposts]

How serious is the problem today in India?


The truth is that no one really knows exact figures because of inadequate surveillance and reporting. The latest official government estimate is 3.5 million at the end of 1998 (for details see NACO Web page http://www.naco.nic.in/naco/). These estimates are based on a statistical analyses starting from the number of cases reported by participating hospitals. The general pattern is that these are underestimates because many of the afflicted don't seek help as they are too poor or too marginalized. As a result, the true numbers maybe as high as 10 million. What is even more scary is that the rate of increase is very high: it could be as large as 1-2 million per year already with the total number of infected doubling every 2-3 years.

Thus, if unchecked, there could be 100 million people that are HIV+ by the year 2010.

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There are many different ways of contracting HIV/AIDS.
There are just as many different ways of preventing HIV/AIDS.
There are many different groups of people exposed to HIV/AIDS.
There are many different ways of discriminating against people living with HIV/AIDS.
The WHYs, HOWs and WHOs change from CULTURE to CULTURE.

That is why we need :
A CULTURALLY-APPROPRIATE RESPONSE TO HIV/AIDS PREVENTION AND CARE.

In terms of HIV/AIDS prevention and care, adopting a cultural approach means that any given population´s cultural references and resources (ways of life, value systems, traditions, beliefs, religions and fundamental human rights) will be considered as key references when designing, implementing and monitoring prevention and care strategies, programmes and projects.

This is an essential component in achieving in-depth and sustainable changes in people´s behaviour, and to give full coherence to preventive education, medical treatment, care and support of infected and affected people.

This is why the joint UNESCO/UNAIDS research project A Cultural Approach to HIV/AIDS Prevention and Care was launched in May 1998, with the aim of stimulating reflection and action for better application of "a cultural approach" in strategies, policies, projects and fieldwork. This strategy engages populations in the fight against HIV/AIDS on the basis of their own cultural references and resources.

[Oldposts]

Is SEX_education important to save INDIA??????

Is our conservative culture 'helps' spreeading of AIDS??????????

------

And nowhere else is the problem so pressing. Infants and children below the age of 15 form nearly 30 percent of India's 940 million people and form a high proportion of the upcoming sexually active persons exposed to HIV infection.

"Young people in this country are faced with an extraordinary lack of information and taken together with the powerlessness of women, the vulnerability to HIV is high," UNAIDS' Alexander said.

"Unfortunately, AIDS education is denied to young people because the subject is considered too sensitive and controversial for discussion in classrooms," said Asa Andersson, expert in AIDS education with UNESCO.

However, she said several states such as western Maharashtra, central Madhya Pradesh, southern Tamil Nadu and north-eastern Manipur have taken their own initiatives and shown commendable progress.

Education is a state subject in India and although the central government exerts considerable influence through the National Council of Education Research and Training (NCERT), the government has so far failed to pronounce any firm policy.

According to Dr. Balaji, NCERT has so far been playing it safe because of the explosiveness of the issue of sex education which cannot be separated from AIDS education. "Too many people think that neither is compatible with their notion of Indian culture."

Still Balaji said India has come a long way from the day in 1993 when he was nearly assaulted by the principal of a government school in Madhya Pradesh where he and his team were attempting to introduce a course in sex education.

"We perfected a module for training teachers and peer educators after first trying to get biology teachers and even physical education teachers to do the job," he said.

In the end, reason prevailed and in Maharashtra a programme called 'Family Life Education,' dealing with sexuality, respect for the opposite sex and changes in puberty gets to half a million students in 2,300 schools through a non governmental organisation (NGO) called the Sevadham Trust.

According to Dr. S.V. Gore, managing trustee of Sevadham, the project took off largely because of unexpected support from parents who were relieved at not having to discuss the delicate subject of sex with their children.

One of Sevadham's body of 3,000 peer instructors, Gunjun Sah said young people in India were still learning too much from the television channels, pornographic material and from each other and too little from trained and responsible people. Said Dr. Balaji, "While it is natural for young people everywhere to take risks, behaviour modification can only be effected among people under the age of 25 that is why any worthwhile HIV-control programme needs to focus on this group."

Balaji said HIV/AIDS in India is something of a blessing in disguise because it has compelled attention on neglected areas such as equal relationships between men and women and on behavioural problems too easily attributed to the generation gap. (END/IPS/rdr/an/98)

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[Oldposts]

No more "mIN santhai" here any more! So no more need for me either!

To all the civilized individuals:

I would greatly appreciate if you all could forget the past and proceed in the good direction and I humbly request all the civilized individuals here not to mention or comment on any of my "mIn sanddthai" posts I had posted here today or earlier. I dont think I ask a lot from you as you are all highly decent and highly OPEN-MINDED individuals here!

Thanks a lot!

Good bye everyone!

[Oldposts]

ukw, I will venture to answer your posts and I don't care if I am "uncivilized" for it. HIV is a huge problem in India especially in TN. We could do one of many things, deny it exists, observe that it ONLY happens to the 'deserved' people, actively participate in raising awareness or just don't deal with it at all.

Knowledge of the health sciences is not necessary for expressing sympathy or concern over this problem. But enlightenment in the area becomes necessary when quoting anecdotes about the professional practice and such. You did a good job on posting links about AIDS in India and you have also contributed to the original discussion which dealt with "live-in". Your viewpoints are interesting and your attitude is forthright and you're not afraid to speak your mind and you are none the worse for it.

Like geno said before this is an 'impersonal' forum although we could all claim a certain camaraderie for likeness of thoughts and tastes. Our boundaries seem to shift constantly between "I'm allowed to say this because its my fundamental right" to "I will reserve some opinions because this does not seem like the right place for it". Given that we all demand a certain amount of consideration by others even in this face-less corner of cyberspace, let's not go all out branding people as one way or another, because POINTING FINGERS IS VERY EASY TO DO BUT CONCEDING TO FAILURE BY THE SAME STANDARDS IS THAT MUCH HARDER, if not more. This is my overall observation considering the last 6 to 8 pages of the ALL the posts made by EVERYONE, in this particular thread.

I just want to suggest that we lay down some ground rules for debates before we embark on them such as, in the present context, how do we define "live-in"? Geno's exasperated post in reply to the Q&A posted by PP is a good example. Let's not deviate from the definition of topic once we have defined it. Not even extreme leftists would agree with some of the claims alleged as being condoned by liberals on this thread. Let us also try to be objective to the topic and state our views irrespective of the opponent’s sex, age, past history or the lack of it, etc.

If we are looking to vent our frustrations on the society in a barely anonymous forum, we have accomplished doing just that but if we are looking for answers we have been doing the wrong thing.

Regards,

Cygnus

(Hitherto fore known as pg)

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Doc: I appreciate your genuine post. I also went through your earlier posts which were all not at all uncivilized but they did not treat you better either. So I know the answer to this problem. Should I have to waste my time pretending like looking for an answer here? Nah!!! My mom still thinks I am a baby and she has an anti-west attitude too without analyzing the west carefully. We cant blame everything on west for sure. How come high-class writers like TJR came up with novels like Amma vanthaaL and marappasu. I dont see anything but pervertion there. May be TJR also got western influence? Someone working for Agilent technology should first try to make some instruments like HPLC and spectrophotometer of our own and work for Indian company before commenting on wests' achievement. That is my stupid logic!!! Well, good luck, doc!

[Oldposts]

test

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«Õ¨ÁÂ¡É Ý¼¡É ¦À¡È¢ÀÈó¾ Ţš¾õ!! Á£ñÎõ ÀÊìÌõ§À¡Ðõ - ÀÄ Å¢„Âí¸û ¦¾Ç¢Å¡Ìõ Åñ½õ «¨ÉÅâý «È¢×ìÜ÷¨ÁÂ¡É ¸ÕòÐì¸û!


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[Oldposts]

iam not able see the poem in tamil.iam new to this site.please guide me to do so.

[Oldposts]

sagi,

chk this out to post in Tamil

http://www.forumhub.com/poems/1526.02.43.05.html (http://www.forumhub.com/poems/1526.02.43.05.html
)

[Oldposts]

Well a few people seem to have developed sudden amnesiac attack!


SO lemme help 'em out!

;=))))

[Oldposts]

Well our dear friend ukw needs to check back on her "opinions" during March - April 2004!!

I'm reviving this thread for her convenience!

;=)))

[Oldposts]

Cygnus!!

See this gem from our ukw! :

>> Doc: I appreciate your genuine post. I also went through your earlier posts which were all not at all uncivilized but they did not treat you better either. >>

Hey she thinks u r civilized -or atleast she thought that u were civilized!

U can take heart from that now!

cant you?!!!

;=)))

[Oldposts]

geno, this thread is a testimony of the dogamtic positions held on to for dear life by many. Your barrage of evidences elsewhere have clearly proven that sometimes "principles" metamorphose into "convenient morality standards" suited to current situations, based on whether the author of a certain controversial letter is a ceratin self-proclaimed atheist, who married the mother of his children after begetting them (my god, what a sinner, let's lynch him!!!!!) as opposed to, let's say, a certain chain-smoking, hermitic, demigod who's perpetually prophesized to be the "one" to save thamizhnadu!

So I guess, I can rest assured that I was once considered "civilized' ;-)

[Oldposts]

ROTFL cyg!!

;=))))))))))

I guess most of us miss your "subtle" sense of humor here at the hub!

Do drop in whenever time permits!

:=)
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