Ex-Number One England

[Plum]

The way BAirstow was playing I hope they summon the guts to not call KP for some more time.
pArppOm.


Strauss-Cook-Trott : one of these Always fired in the 2 years. Let down.
What's with edging the new ball every single time :huh:
Philander was doing nothing great but was always getting wickets, it wasn't funny.

I still maintain Broad or Anderson, in flow, are far better bowlers than this Morkali and philander. But they were so so ordinary while these guys induced so many mistakes. ONNumE puriyalE ulagathilE.

Overall this series was not the 'fast bowling treat' I expected. Not saying this because England lost.


Exactly same excuse being given by BritishvaaLs in Guardian. Feeyaar is a born britisher by temparament :)

Rob Smyth in Guardian - Well done thennAppirikkA but idhuvE kaNdi pOna varusham vandhirundhIngannA nAnga dhAn jeyichiruppOm. ippO enga pasanga konjam asandhuttAnga.

KP zero adichadukku Karma apdinnu article pOttAn indha payal. ippO England thOthadhu enna KurmavA appO?

[Plum]

This excuse about this series being lost because England under performed is nonsense. When the pressure was on, they coyuldnt deliver.

It is alright thrashing Dhoni and friends in England and a totally gone Australia. This was your first real test and you failed it. DONT GIVE EXCUSES.
Infact, it was England which took wickets with loose deliveries in this series most. Without that it would have been a thrashing.

This last day chase was a flukey boy in burning deck effort - and god knows Britian have a lot of that even in War history. Dont over hype even in loss.

SA were better. Repeat after me. England were shown their rightful place. Arguably longer than one year #1AmAm. Nonsense. SA have always been the rightful owners int he last few years barring their choking. England are pretenders and they were exposed finally.

A thrashing of Test bunnies Dhoni and co in India will not change this fact.

[Plum]

Now that Bairstow has done it, the disgusting ganging up on Pietersen continues in a shameful way in British press.

idhai elLAm support paNdravanga piRkAlathula consience attacklayE nimmadhi izhappAnga avLO dhAn splla mudiyin...

[P_R]

Plum, naan sonnadhula enna excuse?
I unreservedly say SA was the better team.
England's bowling was thoroughly unimpressive.
Although SA bowled better, there were no 'wow' moments/bowlers.

Wizzy, philander was better in his debut series versus Aus. Movement, setting up batsmen etc. Here he didnt do much but England were treating him with too much respect methinks. They got out to many nothing balls.

[P_R]

Ashes.
End of argument.

[Plum]

SA never win 3-0 3-1 etc. But they have a solid team with excellent test players. Wow momentslAm nonsense. apdiyE Ashesla enna wow moments? Cook and Trott blade gauging. adhai vida Amla-Kallis mattamO? summA pEsaNumEnnu pEsa koodAdhu.

oru seththa pAmbu Australiava adichuttu Enna aattam pOttInga?

[P_R]

Would that 'dead snake' Aus have been beaten by that comprehensively by the best any team (India, SA - rendaiyum mixing kooda paNNikkunga)? If your answer is 'yes' then :wave:

Anyway, England deserved to lose this series. They were well below par. Idhil iru vERu karuththukku idam illai.

[P_R]

Strauss and cook were examples of ppl who were giving him too much respect. I hope someone like Sehwag cuts him down to size. He is consistent, that's the best that can be said about him. Quite unimaginative, hardly troubling pace, nothing impressive in variation. Even the worst detractors of Anderson/Broad wouldnt say this about them - although they'd be justified in saying it after watching this tour :lol2:

[Plum]

Whats your point? India dont even beat Banglandesh or4 Zimbabwe 4-0. Series whitewashlAm nAnga kanavula kooda yosikka mAttOm

England have the ability to cash in in when the opponent caves in like India and Australia did. adhai oru perumiayA mathavan paNNuvANAnnA?

You needed the opposition to cave in and not try - in those circumstances you can sure win 3-1. What is so great about that? Why is that a differentiating factor?

What were the wow moments about England? any ball of the century?

Yov nIngalum adhe Off stump line Pottu dhAnyA mEla vandhInga!

Why these excuses now? That England lost only because Anderson and Broad underperformed? Who made them underperform? WHy did they underperform? Because the opposition wasnt India or a 21st century australia who have forgotten their battling roots.

Why cant you comprehensively accept that England were never the dope that they were claimed to be? Even after comprehensive defeat. Why try to act as if a year ago they would have beaten this SA.

Then I would say the India of 2010 with Latchu and Sach in great form would have beaten England in England and Oz in Oz. idhellAm summA manasa thEthikka soliiKARadhu

Accept that yiur team wasnt al that you thought it was even in retrospect/ Tone donw your ATG appraisals of Broad etc. This is their level.

[Plum]

If India succumb to pressure under accurate bowling, adh bowlers graetness
If England does, England gave it away ilavasa vEtti to South Africa

Nonsense and you know it feeyaar

[Plum]

Infact Vaughan's team that beat SA over a 5 test series and won the Ashes againast a TRUE ATG team in 2005 are better than this #1 team.

The Indian batsmen of 2000s were better than this batting unit although our bowling was never great - still we won many against Aus with that bowling.

This England team has fallen to the first reasonably good team that they have faced. Not to forget losing to Pak and SL as well.

Dont kid yourself that you were true #1 for more than a year.

[P_R]

Plum, simple: England were ordinary last summer too but managed to win 'ndreengaLA?
Sollunga, then we have a fundamental disagreement in appreciating the sport itself.

[Plum]

There are 15 ashes tests in the next 3 years it seems.

Feeyaar - majaa maadi. You can praise your fellers to the sky when they win these matches. I'll actually support your lot when Ponting comes calling next year. pAkkalAm

[Plum]

Yeah - we didnt even have Zaheer Khan. Why hype those performances? And Sachin etc fell to the constant probing line - only Rahul with his patiene survived. It is not as if your lot bowled graet wow moments

Why are you rewriting history

SA this year were better than your lot last year

[P_R]

And when I talk about England team - I dont believe he world started with Flower/Straus. Start from usainbhai. So vaaganam results are also accepted. Their highs were memorable too. Just that this is a bit of a fairy tale, the way they rode to the top. Anyway it's all gone now.

[P_R]

Broad in the zone is a joy to watch
Anderson with the new ball is to me just as exciting as Steyn
I could see none of that in this tour. They deserved to be beaten.

I will agree to disagree on Philander. He was far more Impressive last Nov in Austalia. So much variation. This one was like Ashish Nehra's sixfor in the 03 WC.

[Plum]

More fundamentally, tell me why your team dserved to be #1 for mor than the one year tht thy managed as you claim?

If you are talking about how well they played in the lead up, then what about India and South Africa? What about England playing crap after the India series last year
By that count,t hey werent #1 in Pak and Lanka

You are conveninetly inteprreting to your convenience. Either letter or spirit.
Not like - in 2010 England were #1 in spirit but not letter, in 2011 they were in both, in 2012 they were #1 because they were #1 in letter although not in spirit.

Ipdi ellaa,m series by series pArthA you wont have a proper #1 team

England were #1 for 1 year. I grant they deserved it on the back of Ashes 2010 and India 2011. That is all.

They arent even the best England team in this century

[wizzy]

P_R India were coming off a worldcup high/no.1 ranking in tests/were plauged by injuries/trinities @ their last legs and were expectedly caught offguard..Eng were whitewashed by Paks..don't remember India not winning a single test in any of their overseas series whilst they were @ top.

[Plum]

Broad joy to watch? You are Chris Broad and I claim my 10 dollars :)

[P_R]

Heck Broad bowled well in that disaster tour in abidhabi. Teasing lines, breaking partnerships..
Here he was doing nothing. Everyone had so much time to play him :shock:

[P_R]

Plum I wrote about the ride to the top earlier. They have been more consistent that Usainbhai and vaganam's teams.
(I am quite fond of Usainbhai's team - adhu vERa debarment).
I mAnaseegamA have them the top spot before the Ashes. The result was a foregone conclusion to me. And when the romped home it was a mere validation. I can't recall any team dominating another as comprehensively in recent memory. It was an agonizingly long and annoying wait to be officially crowned till the end of that summer.

Indha world cup ellAm appuramA vachukka koodaadhA -nnu irundhEn. :noteeth:
You may remember my prediction of England win even before the Insia series started. They were exposed in Dubai.but I did expect them to play better at home. They have been disappointing. No denying that.

My clock starts preAshes and ends in Dubai. Koottu kazichu paarunga.

[Plum]

Pre AshesnA? Earlier that year, they beat who? A match fixing Pakistan and Australia who dominated that series. They were lucky to win that Ashes 2009. 2010la yaaru> New zealandA? Oh yeah Bangkadesh> Sorry you dont get #1 for beating Bangladesh

[ajithfederer]

Plum ipdi ellam nottai sonninganna India were never #1 to start with/ :lol:

[P_R]

A match fixing Pakistan Spot fixing = match fixing-A? :lol2:
Pak even won one of the matches, didn't they?
That one match alone they were not seththa paambus?
Possibly that one match alone the bookies didn't finance the throwing?
Or they did finance the throwing but England sucked so bad, that they lost even then?

And Pak were formidable contestants in English conditions because their bowling was strong. They were let down by their batsmen.


and Australia who dominated that series. Unselected. It was a more than even contest.

The series where they were dominated but managed to draw is the tour to SAfrica right after that. adhai chonnAlAvadhu oru nyAyam irukku.

[P_R]

Plum ipdi ellam nottai sonninganna India were never #1 to start with/ :lol:
appadinnu naan sollalappA :lol2:

[Plum]

Irukkattum. I am not ticket buyer for India - my only interest in india cricket is Sach, Rah, VVS, aduppadi, varadhukutty. Convenient point mattum eduthukittu badhil sonnA epdi? You said England were spiritual #1 for more than one year. When? How? I didn't claim about this spiritual ramdev nithyananda #1 and all for india. Your ball to play.

India were numeric #1 for more than 2 years. For a team that has been mediocre for 70 years , that was huge. Ivlo dhaan enga claim. Adhuvum on back of koyandhayapaya bowling attacknu naangale solrom. You are the one who bought ticket for great bowling batting of this England. You are the british overhyping feller here. We are DTE

[P_R]

Convenient point mattum eduthukittu badhil sonnA epdi? Pray, what is the 'incovenient' point I ignored?


You said England were spiritual #1 for more than one year. When? How? I didn't claim about this spiritual ramdev nithyananda #1 and all for india. Your ball to play. More than comprehensively answered.
Very conservatively speaking, IMO they entered the Ashes 2009/10 as the top test team in the waeld. And they hung on till they lost in Dubai. More than one year.

We also didn't win outside home. You also didn't win outside home (Aus is home only for you; plus they were seththa paambus), therefore both are same-nu solla pArkkureenga. appadiyE vachchukkunga-nu solREn.


You are the one who bought ticket for great bowling batting of this England. You are the british overhyping feller here. enna overhype-u? Their victories everywhere were pretty much bowling led. Anderson, Broad and Swann. And now they've lost because those guy did not deliver.


We are DTE appadinnA?

Dobell konjam overA pongittAn 'naalum. 10 innings defeat out of 20 wins. Effecting such comprehensive routs in Ashes ellAm reasonable grounds for euphoria.
Atherton, Stewart keezha paththu varusham pichchai eduththuvanukku dhaan adhellAm puriyum. unakku puriyAdhu, nee South Indian.

[Plum]

Points you conveniently chose to not answer or answer wishy wasihily.
1.
Whats your point? India dont even beat Banglandesh or4 Zimbabwe 4-0. Series whitewashlAm nAnga kanavula kooda yosikka mAttOm

England have the ability to cash in in when the opponent caves in like India and Australia did. adhai oru perumiayA mathavan paNNuvANAnu kEttA?


2.
You needed the opposition to cave in and not try - in those circumstances you can sure win 3-1. What is so great about that? Why is that a differentiating factor?

3.
What were the wow moments about England? any ball of the century?
Any outstanding eye-pleasing knocks?

4/
Yov nIngalum adhe Off stump line Pottu dhAnyA mEla vandhInga!
ennamO SA mattum eye pleasingA oNNum paNNAmalE #1ku vandhA mAdhiri maindain paNdrIngaLE adhukku sonNEn. No REply

5.
Why these excuses now? That England lost only because Anderson and Broad underperformed? Who made them underperform? WHy did they underperform? Because the opposition wasnt India or a 21st century australia who have forgotten their battling roots.

6.
Why cant you comprehensively accept that England were never the dope that they were claimed to be? Even after comprehensive defeat. Why try to act as if a year ago they would have beaten this SA.Then I would say the India of 2010 with Latchu and Sach in great form would have beaten England in England and Oz in Oz. idhellAm summA manasa thEthikka soliiKARadhu

Why this if athaikku meesai muLAichA arguments? So, I'll claim 2010 wallah India would have beaten England iN englandnu. So? idhue llAm oru ArgumentA?


7.
If India succumb to pressure under accurate bowling, adh bowlers graetness
If England does, England gave away ilavasa vEtti to South Africa?




8.
Infact Vaughan's team that beat SA over a 5 test series and won the Ashes againast a TRUE ATG team in 2005 are better than this #1 team.

The Indian batsmen of 2000s were better than this batting unit although our bowling was never great - still we won many against Aus with that bowling.

This England team has fallen to the first reasonably good team that they have faced. Not to forget losing to Pak and SL as well.

Dont kid yourself that you were true #1 for more than a year.

[Plum]

Spot fixing = match fixing-A?
Pak even won one of the matches, didn't they?
That one match alone they were not seththa paambus?
Possibly that one match alone the bookies didn't finance the throwing?
Or they did finance the throwing but England sucked so bad, that they lost even then?

And Pak were formidable contestants in English conditions because their bowling was strong. They were let down by their batsmen.


Spot fixing was found. But given the circumstances, given that Pak were formidable contestants and outstanding in bowling, how do you explain 169 for Stuart Broad? Surely he is not that talented with the bat? He has never been able to replicate that. Even Strauss conceded that it is hard to evaluate that match performances with normal parameters now. Even Kapil had a outlier 175 but that was against Zimbabwe. Anyway, even assuming this is speculation and not true, the batsmen simply caved in against a high quality attakc barring that outlier century by Broad and some decent effors by Trott. After that, the first quality attack Cook and co faced is current series - and what happened? :)

[Plum]

IMO they entered the Ashes 2009/10 as the top test team in the waeld. And they hung on till they lost in Dubai. More than one year.
Disingenuous.

Spiritually:
1. England #1 claims - can start at the point of Ashes series(end of the series when they showcased a outstanding performance). Ends at end of India tour in 2011. Less than a year. After that, they twiddled thumbs at home until the Dubai tour. Ok, even if you include that tour about 1.25 years as "Spiritual Baba
Ramdev Swami Nithyananda #1"
2. Actual #1 numerically - less than one year
3. More importantnly, spiritually they lost the #1 in the very first series after becoming #1

India - numeric #1 as 2 years. Atleast, showed "Spiritual Baba Ramdev Swami Nithyananda #1" credentials in retaining that ranking atleast 2-3 times against a Strong South African team. And away from home at that, once. Atleast, they fought for their ranking for about a year. Your boys?
Winston Churchill, John Major, Maggie Thatcher, Prince Charles, Faramasivan, Frabhu Ram, do you hear me Frabhu Ram? Your boys took one hell of a beating

[wizzy]

India - numeric #1 as 2 years. Atleast, showed "Spiritual Baba Ramdev Swami Nithyananda #1" credentials in retaining that ranking atleast 2-3 times against a Strong South African team. And away from home at that, once. Atleast, they fought for their ranking for about a year. Your boys?
Winston Churchill, John Major, Maggie Thatcher, Prince Charles, Faramasivan, Frabhu Ram, do you hear me Frabhu Ram? Your boys took one hell of a beating
:lol: ...imagine India dropping a full series like Eng did in UAE and still continued to be no.1 numerically..all hell would have broken loose and we would have been guilt tripped by Eng pundits/supporter(s) and many of us would have shunned the rankings :)

[P_R]

Points you conveniently chose to not answer or answer wishy wasihily.
Reading through I see what you mean when you accuse people of evading questions :lol2:
adhai paththi innoru naaL pEsuvOm..


Whats your point? India dont even beat Banglandesh or4 Zimbabwe 4-0. Series whitewashlAm nAnga kanavula kooda yosikka mAttOm
The point is exactly that. World beaters rub the nose of the opposition on the ground, dominate every session etc.


England have the ability to cash in in when the opponent caves in like India and Australia did. adhai oru perumiayA mathavan paNNuvANAnu kEttA?
Yeah, the opposition caved in by themselves, no credit to England.

OTOH if any team beats England - Pak or SA, it has nothing even remotely to do with England playing badly. No,no - that can't even be one of the reasons. The ONLY reason acceptable to you is, England was playing as good as they ever played but were still beaten by a better side.


You needed the opposition to cave in and not try - in those circumstances you can sure win 3-1. What is so great about that? Why is that a differentiating factor?
The last Ashes in England was an event contest won by England. They competed quite hard. Heck, to the extent that you said 'Aus dominated it' :-)
So they have won contests allegedly dominated by the opposition - there you won't give vengaLa kiNNam
In contests where they murder the opposition - there too no vengaLa kiNNam, because now these teams are seththapaambus with a proclivity for hara-kiri
Contests where Eng hung by their teeth to level the series (SA tour) - sign of their not being number one
And when they Eng beaten - see, they were never any good.

enna oru impartial analyses :clap:

What differentiating, integrating factor are you talking about :huh:

[P_R]

What were the wow moments about England? any ball of the century? Any outstanding eye-pleasing knocks?

Broad,Swann effecting innings defeat on SA - the match that made people sit-up and take notice of Swann (seththa paambu South Africa can't play spin and were tired on the last day, that's why talentless Broad got wickets)Swann's wickets were beautiful classical offspinner wickets.Broad was swinging at will extremely gracefully.
They did the same in the last Ashes test in England (recovering from an innings defeat effected on them by a team, that in this match happened to become a seththa paambu)

idhaippOla paRpala. No point giving you examples of Trott's Ashes knocks, Prior's fighting contextual beauties.
Anyway, there is no point expending energies on this. Your point is 'Philander, Morkel' can match Broad, Anderson every inch in aesthetic achievement. Kallis is just as interesting to watch as Trott etc. vachchukkunga. avvaLO dhaanE.




Yov nIngalum adhe Off stump line Pottu dhAnyA mEla vandhInga!
ennamO SA mattum eye pleasingA oNNum paNNAmalE #1ku vandhA mAdhiri maindain paNdrIngaLE adhukku sonNEn. No REply

Are you reading what I am saying??
I said I was looking forward to this series as a fastbowling delight and it was disappointing.
Where the hell did I say Philander was never eye-pleasing, or Steyn is uninteresting. I was quite excited watching Philander's debut series.
All I am saying is, Philander-Morkel didn't match up to what I expected and Anderson-Broad were downright disappointing.

In your anxiety to say Anderson-Broad were never any good, you are also implying Philander-Morkel were never any better than what they were this series! :lol:

[P_R]

ovvoNNA solREn..moththamA sonnnA badhil sollalai 'nRuveer

Why these excuses now? enna kaiyya pudichhu izhuthiyA?

That England lost only because Anderson and Broad underperformed? idhu excuse-A? adhAvadhu Broad-Anderson bowled as well as they ever have-A?

Who made them underperform? Hai! idhu nallA irukkE. If only you could extend the same courtesy to the teams England beats. In those case they become 'seththa paambus' who cave-in and thus beating them means nothing.

WHy did they underperform? Because the opposition wasnt India or a 21st century australia who have forgotten their battling roots. Yeah world number 1 team, seththa paambu India was a pushover. Australia, who 'dominated' the previous series and managed to defeat England in one of the tests in that series was also a pushover.

Anyway, granted..SA was the toughest challenge England faced and they ended up losing to them. idhai edhukku suththi suththu solreenga. NaanE sonnEnE! That is why we were looking forward to this series in the first place.

[P_R]

Why cant you comprehensively accept that England were never the dope that they were claimed to be?
Because they were. Nothing you say can make it 'all media hype'.

Even after comprehensive defeat. Why try to act as if a year ago they would have beaten this SA. Act illai saar belief. One confirmed century in the top three. Confirmed fifty by someone in the middle order. Then Prior batting with the tail. Anderson, Broad attacking relentlessly and opening up the tenders to Swann. idhai ellAm dhaan edhir pArththEn. Bulb vaanginEn.

idhellAm summA manasa thEthikka soliiKARadhu
Namba mudiyAdha oru vishayam kaNNu munnAla nadandhiruchchu - Eng waeld nember one. namburadhukku kastamA dhaan irukkum. adhukkAga edhuvumE nadakkalainnu sollidaradhA.
Holocaust denier range-ku pOyiruveenga pOla irukku :lol2:


Why this if athaikku meesai muLAichA arguments? So, I'll claim 2010 wallah India would have beaten England iN englandnu. So? idhue llAm oru ArgumentA?
naan argument edhuvumE paNNalaiyE. NeengaLE paNNittu, neengaLE thittikkiReenga :lol2:

[P_R]

7. If India succumb to pressure under accurate bowling, adh bowlers graetness. If England does, England gave away ilavasa vEtti to South Africa?

karththarE, eppadi puriya vaippEn
For a moment, can you get it out of you head that I am denying urimaiyAna credir, bonus to Philander and co.
All I said was: they weren't bowling as well as I have seen them bowl. Heck, Morkel bowled better to India.
Still England managed to lose. How?
Explanation:
a) they batted badly this series - makes you see red
b) they have always batted badly and got exposed when they faced good bowling for the first time in their lives - may be more palatable to you

I go for 'a' because they are traditionally better batsmen in home conditions against this bowling. So I believe they were below par in all department.
You believe this is their par performance. Sake-hands.


Infact Vaughan's team that beat SA over a 5 test series and won the Ashes againast a TRUE ATG team in 2005 are better than this #1 team.
I think I responded precisely to this. That I have no fondness for this particularly unit. I don't believe the world started with Flower. This success owes to Usainbhai. I have fonder memories with their successes (SL, Pak etc). Just that these guys were more consistent. Hey, I already told you all this man.


The Indian batsmen of 2000s were better than this batting unit although our bowling was never great - still we won many against Aus with that bowling.
sari, ippo adhukku enna?



This England team has fallen to the first reasonably good team that they have faced. Not to forget losing to Pak and SL as well.
Dont kid yourself that you were true #1 for more than a year.
I think I gave you the calendar math. From the last Ashes to England till Dubai - managing to remain still without being knocked off in SA.

[P_R]

But given the circumstances, given that Pak were formidable contestants and outstanding in bowling, how do you explain 169 for Stuart Broad? Surely he is not that talented with the bat?
Awesome performances are rare. Why doesn't he do it once a month-nu kEttA enna solRadhu?
Lord's and Trent-Bridge versus India ellAm enna panju muttAyA? Oh, I am sorry, the world number one India were seththa-paambus, so that should be discounted.

What about the counterattacking innings in Dubai batting with the tail (ivanE tail dhaan :lol2:) ? Possibly that session alone was fixed.


Even Kapil had a outlier 175 but that was against Zimbabwe. A Zimbawe that had skittled out the top five wickets for next to nothing. So I wouldn't discount that. Hey, but that's just me.

You can stick with your standards of dismissing Kapil's innings because that may put you in the unenviable circumstance of having to give Broad his due.


After that, the first quality attack Cook and co faced is current series Remember Siddle effecting a defeat? Perhaps that's an outlier too.

In the Ashes series you watched, quite possibly all the bowlers bowled nonsense and consistently gave width and length true to the character of being 'seththa paambus'. Is there any other conceivable explanation why no-talents like Cook, Trott and Strauss can pile on runs. None whatsoever.

[P_R]

Flower calls for an IPL Window
http://www.espncricinfo.com/england-v-south-africa-2012/content/story/578708.html


It would be better if there was a very clear window prior to our international season starting.
I posted so a few weeks backs, anticipating this. That IPL can happen in Feb-Mar, when you can't play cricket anywhere else. But it's not the most lucrative time to play, so the organizers won't change the schedule. This panjAyathu will not be over soon

[P_R]

Flower-vaakkiyam

I would rather not speculate [on whether Pietersen may have played his last game for England]. But he was speculating on it during the Test series, so there is a chance I suppose.

:lol2:

[wizzy]

I go for 'a' because they are traditionally better batsmen in home conditions against this bowling. So I believe they were below par in all department.
You believe this is their par performance. Sake-hands.

guess Indian/OZ bowlers have clouded your judgement wrt Eng batting in home conditions.. having watched Eng batters all summer let me break their batting lineup for you :-)

even against SL/WI top order wickets fell quickly and then the tail had to wag to post a good score..other than Trott/KP none of the Eng batters have had extended spell of purple patch regardless of opp attack/tracks they played on..Cook survives purely on flat tracks/harmless attacks to get that one big score in a series to save his back and then go AWOL..Strauss has been a non issue for a good part of 2 yrs..struggled even against a clumsy Indian attack sans Zak..Bell just doesn't have it in him to do a VVS when rest of the bats fail and musical chairs @ no.6 have only compounded the problems.

Trott being neutralized by Steyn completely wrecked this lineup and Thayir mopping the tail meant no spoils from lower order either+KP being sidelined on/off the field for non-cricketing reasons meant Eng batting in soup..how many times did Eng cross 300 in this series with the pitches being flat for the most part.

some stats to munch on..all together they were 7 100s in this series..5 by Saffers+1 by former Saffer+a token Cook 100 on a flat track so
Eng batting lineup were ATG only when bowlers(OZ/Ind) allow them to be..even competent/boring attacks(SA/Pak/SL/WI read in the order of effectiveness) have got the job done so where is the question of this Eng batting lineup being traditionally good in home conditions :huh: for long Eng bowlers saved their batters blushes @ home but when they couldn't get the job done(dropped catches+not in rhythm ) like in this series the batting got ruthlessly exposed.

[P_R]

Wizzy, remember the Ashes they won in England (the one where Plum claims Aus 'dominated' England)
The same team with Hilfenhaus, Johnson, Siddle that swings from being dominant to being seththa paambus to being dominant again.

The momentum was set-up by a huge 200ish opening stand by Cook-Strauss, which gave them the first win.
And remember the last match, where they punched their way to a win. Trott made a century on debut. Batting with Strauss and then the tail, against an Aus attack that was making a last attempt in the decider.

The match they won in South Africa - again life-breathing into a series where they were vulnerable - was an opening stand. Even in the last matches where they clung to a draw, Cook-Strauss showed up to put on a 100ish stand. This consistent 50/3 situations were not the order of the day last year, was it?

Sure, in the course of their ride they won with their bowling - adhaiyAchchum unga team-captain Plum oththukkuraarA theriyAdhu. But it wasn't like the batting was abysmal and was covered by bowling.

Of course those huge knocks in the Ashes in Australia were the high-points, against the team which happened to drop their game by a few notches because they were playing England.
But that's not the only thing I am counting.

I don't know if I am allowed to count Sri Lanka, which was prior to our tour. Perhaps not. I have already been told to discount the epic Trott-Broad partnership against Pakistan.

How about Cook's grinding knocks against spin in Abidhabi and SL? The Dubai drubbing is still the most riveting set of tests I have watched this year.

[P_R]

Anyway will state my going-forward manappAl:

1) I want India to lose to New Zealand - revenge for Laxman. But then I want them to be perceived a strong team when England comes - fatten for the kill. Not sure what I want here. I guess I want NZ to play well and India to play better. illainnA India-vai convenientA 'seththa paambu' 'ndruvAnga.

2) I want South Africa to defeat Australia - so it will be clear England was beaten by a good team and will put a fullstop to this Indianfan mumble that 'there are no clear top teams for the next few years, there will be shuffling' which is a backdoor way of deeply discounting India's loss in England and even England's brief reign on-top.

3) England in India - Obviously I want England to win.
I know it's kinda asking for the moon. But the heart wants what it wants.
It hinges a lot on pazhaya panneerselvam Swann + openers. Final test of character 'mbAingaLE.

3b) Do I want KP in the team - although I think Flower doesn't know what he is talking about when he says Eng can win without KP, it will be good to take KP back AFTER England have figured out a way to win without him. Else it will be a desperate crawl-back and KP will have a good reason to be smug. indha match/series/top-spot thOththadhukku arththamE illAma pOyidum.

idhellAm nadakkumnu sollalai.
nadandhA sandhOsappaduvEnnu solREn.
thassal.

[wizzy]

The same team with Hilfenhaus, Johnson, Siddle that swings from being dominant to being seththa paambus to being dominant again.

about 6 months before this Ashes series India 'dominated' the same OZ side 2-0 with the rest being high scoring draws and Eng barely scrapped through the first test and you call this 'dominating' a series :huh:


The match they won in South Africa - again life-breathing into a series where they were vulnerable - was an opening stand. Even in the last matches where they clung to a draw, Cook-Strauss showed up to put on a 100ish stand. This consistent 50/3 situations were not the order of the day last year, was it?

what about the matches they drew..again will you India's counter..India drew a series in SA which they ought to have won 2-1 OTOH if not for Onions scrapping through Eng would have lost 3-1 against SA..so what gives :huh:


How about Cook's grinding knocks against spin in Abidhabi and SL? The Dubai drubbing is still the most riveting set of tests I have watched this year.

all token knocks which has no bearing on the series result...even in the match Cook 'grinded' SL... Eng were snailing until KP took the match away with his blistering knock.

[P_R]

you call this 'dominating' a series That was what Plum was saying. I was jibing him. I should have put 'dominant' in quotes. In my opinion that was an evenly contested series.


what about the matches they drew..again will you India's counter..India drew a series in SA which they ought to have won 2-1 OTOH if not for Onions scrapping through Eng would have lost 3-1 against SA..so what gives :huh:
Yep. Where do you see me denying that. SA were the better team in that series and managing to draw that was quite a fight 'ngREn.


all token knocks which has no bearing on the series result...So?

even in the match Cook 'grinded' SL... Eng were snailing until KP took the match away with his blistering knock. Oh, if your point is KP is better, more exciting, more talented batsman than Cook - where am I disagreeing with any of that.

Just disagreeing with your summary dismissal of Cook & co. as a talentless bunch of minnow-bashing bullies saved by Anderson-Broad & co. (who are themselves no-talents, when we begin to discuss them).

[ajithfederer]

P_r : Which ashes series you are claiming it as evenly contested? 2009/10 in England or 2010/11 in Australia. If it is the latter it was never one to start with. I even had a bet with LM/some of my outside friends that Eng will trounce Aus.

[P_R]

P_r : Which ashes series you are claiming it as evenly contested? 2009/10 in England or 2010/11 in Australia. If it is the latter it was never one to start with. I even had a bet with LM/some of my outside friends that Eng will trounce Aus.
2009/10. Plum claimed it was dominated by Aus and that England just about managed to win.

England went in as favorites in Australia. They did surprise me by the extent of their dominance. But I was more surprised by the general surprise among people about the overall result itself :lol2: People were overcompensating for the media by underrating England. Some were surprised by India result too, which were quite :lol: to me. It's like they were oblivious to England's rise and attributing it entirely to 'media hype'.

To some extent that overcompensation is happening ex-post too.

aayiram kaigaL maRaikkinRana :lol2:

[ajithfederer]

20 August 2012
Team Matches Points Rating
South Africa 25 3002 120
England 36 4195 117
Australia 34 3952 116
Pakistan 29 3148 109
India 29 3004 104
Sri Lanka 29 2834 98
West Indies 28 2509 90
New Zealand 21 1670 80
Bangladesh 12 0 0
Zimbabwe is currently unranked, as it has played insufficient matches. It has 167 points and a rating of 42.

There is a golden chance for India to become Number 1 if the scenario works out in its favor. If Aus defeats SA and India defeats both Aus and Eng in home they can be back to No 1 again. This cycle of events should be interesting :lol:

[wizzy]

That was what Plum was saying. I was jibing him. I should have put 'dominant' in quotes. In my opinion that was an evenly contested series.

concur :thumbsup:


Yep. Where do you see me denying that. SA were the better team in that series and managing to draw that was quite a fight 'ngREn.

So you agree that India were no.1 in same vein as Eng were numerically/aesthetically/spiritually after putting more than a 'fight' in SA :-D



So?

dead snake knocks..unselected :neutral:


Just disagreeing with your summary dismissal of Cook & co. as a talentless bunch of minnow-bashing bullies saved by Anderson-Broad & co. (who are themselves no-talents, when we begin to discuss them).

I had said Cook/Strauss/Bell/their no.6 were not in same class to KP/Trott and their sloppiness have been covered by Prior/lower order bats and opp. bats scumming to Eng pressure w.r.t bowling tight lines...with Trott being gunned by Steyn and KP by Andy/ECB the series loss has only made the batting malodorous.

Other than the first innings of the first test Eng bowlers almost matched Saffers blow-by-blow..they lost the series with their batting not coming to grips with the harsh reality I had listed above/Andy going cuckoo.

[P_R]

So you agree that India were no.1 in same vein as Eng were numerically/aesthetically/spiritually after putting more than a 'fight' in SA In SA. Yes. India fared much better than England did.
But if you are comparing overall 'away performances', England went to Aus and won emphatically. niRaiya dibarent irukkungaLE.


dead snake knocks..unselected
yOv! usura kaiyila pudichchu viLayAdiyum Pakistan thOkkadichuttAinga. adhu deadsnake-A??

So knocks that did not aid victories will not be in your count-A? (Feddy, indha aaLai note paNNunga, enakku sandhEgamA irukku)


Other than the first innings of the first test Eng bowlers almost matched Saffers blow-by-blow.. That first innings of the first test was telling. It sapped them a lot IMO and the bowlers never recovered. Except for Broad in the second test, SA never seemed to be under attack. Just compare the quality of bowling last summer and this.

In the last test, Finn deserved to get wickets but many of the wickets he got were not deserved.

I see your point about the batting not holding up. Sure that is a reason. But I am not willing to let the bowling off the hook.
They were bowling well below par.

What Plum is trying to insinuate is that the bowling was always this bad, but one couldn't tell because they were always up against lesser teams. That is where I disagree. Which is why I have been giving examples of the Swann-Broad-Anderson performances against SA, Aus etc.

[wizzy]

In SA. Yes. India fared much better than England did.
But if you are comparing overall 'away performances', England went to Aus and won emphatically. niRaiya dibarent irukkungaLE.

India/SA were the only sides which gave that OZ side a semblance of fight @ their home whilst Eng folded up emphatically..enga cutoff date different..India weren't no.1 when they were whitewashed in OZ..even if you compare the away performances weren't Eng whitewashed in UAE and lost a series in Windies where Ind won..so this/that/even :noteeth:



Ov! usura kaiyila pudichchu viLayAdiyum Pakistan thOkkadichuttAinga. adhu deadsnake-A?? So knocks that did not aid victories will not be in your count-A?

oru knock ennbathu game'ai save panna vendum ellai least win panna 'aid' vendum..I hate namathal batsman who fill their boots in meaningless encounters were the results are foregone conclusion and go AWOL when the heat is really on...Cook is a definition of Pakka-vadyam batsman..has he ever played for 2 days to save a test match like ATG in NZ or do a Sehwag @ Galle in aiding the team to victory when rest of the bats mustered next to nothing :huh:



(Feddy, indha aaLai note paNNunga, enakku sandhEgamA irukku)

don't put word in my mouths :)



Except for Broad in the second test, SA never seemed to be under attack. Just compare the quality of bowling last summer and this.
Jimmy had induced so many edges which went through slips and Eng dropping 9 catches made the matters worse..take out Amla who was the difference between the 2 batting sides/a major beneficiary in those dropped catches..ABDV/Rudolph/Kallis struggled as much as their Eng counterparts.



In the last test, Finn deserved to get wickets but many of the wickets he got were not deserved.
Finn was Eng's best bowler..he troubled all the Saffer bats and he deserved lot many wickets.


I see your point about the batting not holding up. Sure that is a reason. But I am not willing to let the bowling off the hook.
They were bowling well below par.
Swann should cope some of the blame..with him being ineffective seamers had to brought back quickly thus killing their efficacy with the second new ball
which meant Saffer tail wagging...again he was a force in SA..must be his elbow injury.



Bell-ku illAdha cojones-A?
He was the first one to make such a statement after the Dubai disaster.
edhu oru perumaiya..taking the blame when the entire batting order more or less sucked in unison match after match :lol:

[P_R]

so this/that/even :noteeth: yEdhO ungaLukku convincing-A irundhA sari.

oru knock ennbathu game'ai save panna vendum ellai least win panna 'aid' vendum..
As B(K) asked, Cook adichcha run ellAm suwiss bank account-layA pOttu vachchAnga?
In Abhidhabi his near-century enabled them to take the lead in a test in a series where they were already one down.
Cook,Strauss, Trott all laid platform for KP to play that innings that enabled the crucial win.


..has he ever played for 2 days to save a test match like ATG in NZ or do a Sehwag @ Galle in aiding the team to victory when rest of the bats mustered next to nothing :huh: idhai edhukku en kitta kEkkuReenga? Naan ennamO Cook-ai Bradman range-ku sonnA mAdhiri. avan oru kadumaiyAna uzhaippALi 'nRa aLavOda dhaanE ennikkumE maindain paNNiyirukkEn.

Of course I don't find him aesthetically unpalatable as the rest of you do. But that does not mean I consider him gifted, fluent etc.

btw I find it curious how his Test SR is plummeting and ODI SR is rising at the same time.

[wizzy]

In Abhidhabi his near-century enabled them to take the lead in a test in a series where they were already one down.
Cook,Strauss, Trott all laid platform for KP to play that innings that enabled the crucial win.


imo Cook is yet to play a 'clutch' knock worth remembering


Of course I don't find him aesthetically unpalatable as the rest of you do. But that does not mean I consider him gifted, fluent etc.

oray :confused2:. .ugliness aside how would you rate Cook against the pantheon of left hand opening bats Eng has produced.


btw I find it curious how his Test SR is plummeting and ODI SR is rising at the same time.

ellam kali..KP..jealously..IPL amudhu mael kann :-)

[P_R]

Trescothik > Butcher, although the latter was more talented, pleasing to watch etc.
Cook plays safe, has to labour to do whatever he is doing. Fluent, gifted ellAm kidaiyAdhu.
But I don't find his grinding ugly. I find it functional.
Who do I find impossible to watch: Thilan Samraweera. oru ezhavum paNNamAttum, romba kaduppA irukkum. So I can kinda empathize with what you feel :lol2:

Compared to other lefties, I'd put Cook almost on par with Tresco. Well above Knight and Butcher.
Of course Butcher is the most pleasing to watch of them all and Marina-vil silai for that 2001 Leeds innings under Usaibhai. adhu vERa vishayam.

[Plum]

Ivaru. 2 varusham topla irundha india veRum numeric #1mbArAm. Oru varusham England irundhadhukku spirittu mcdowell ellam kondu varuaraam. Namma unfairAEnglandai dismiss pandromaa oru nyaayam irukka ivaru pechula? Waste of time waste of energy. Basocally, ivanga jeyichaa all time greatu thOthA ivanga sariyaa velayaadalai adhanaala thothaanga. Epdi paarthaalum ivanga dhaan greatnu soLa vendiyadhu. Vuttaa West indies Australiavoda better umbaaru. I am out of this ridiulous argument. You were the one who dismissed india's 2 year reign and talk as if Engld's one year reign is great. You have no legs to stand on. Idhukellaam evanyaa badhil solvaan? :bye:

[Puliyan_Biryani]

India-vula jeyichadhum ennevellAm pEsappOrOm pArunga.
ayya enna sonneenga :twisted:? oru varusham kudhichu practice pannaalum England-ala mudiyaadhu saar. enga area/theru/veetukku vaa(nga) paakkalaam.

Anticipatory bail : adhukkunnu 4-0 laam edhirpaakka koodadhu. andha maadhiri adidhadi arasiyal panna theriyaadhu engalukku.

[wizzy]

would be so fun if Eng fail to beat this weakest Indian team of all time :rotfl3: wish we had a poll on how many hubbers were born when Eng last won a series in India.

[Plum]

India were #1 for 2 years, England for 1 year. indha spirituallAm vElaikkAgAdhu. oru series 3-1 jeyichuttangalaam. That one series outweighs every other achivement of other teamsna vENdiyadhu. idhellAm oru pozhaippA?

Anyway, 3-0 in Gulf, only series draw in Lanka(Australia defeated them just a few months earlier. virtually the same team), Struggled against Windies at home, Comprehensive loss to the first real strong team they faced in 4 years. idhellAm oru #1-A?

indha Spiritual Baba Ramdev Nithyanananda award vENumna kodukkalAm.

20 varusham Australia kAran adakki vechurundhAn pArunga - adhu dhAn ivaingaLukkellAm thEvai. appO dhAn andha BritishkAran vAyi moodum - konjam sumArA paNNittA podhum, world beatersnu peethikka vENdiyadhu. BritishkAran budhhiyE ipdi thAn!

Arrogant tossers!

[Plum]

Stricttu Anti PontingA irundhEn. inimE Paanding 50 century adichAlum paravA illai, evLavu selvaAnAlum paravA illai. indha Britis Charles iLavarasargaLai 20 varushathukku adichu ukkArthanum.

[P_R]

I repeat, you are going overboard in tryin to counteract English media jambam, by going to the extreme of denying England's stint on top as 'merely' numerical.
Among other things, you stand miserably exposed in calling the Ashes '09 an Aus dominated series.


PuLiyan,adhaan my wishlist pottuttEnE. NadandhA sandhOsamA irukkum.

[P_R]

would be so fun if Eng fail to beat this weakest Indian team of all time :rotfl3:.
eppadi ellAm bail vaanguraangappA!
Andha bayam irundhA sari dhaan. :-)

[P_R]

#You were the one who dismissed india's 2 year reign :
Janice: so I hear you hate me
Joey: I never said 'hate'. I was very careful about that

[wizzy]

eppadi ellAm bail vaanguraangappA!
Andha bayam irundhA sari dhaan. :-)

illennu sollvingala.. is this the strongest team fielded against Eng in India :huh:

Eng has mastered the art of covering all bases :lol2:


England's attempt to regain the No. 1 ranking will begin with a four-Test series in India, where their record is not promising. The team is set to be weakened not only by the absence of Kevin Pietersen but also by the departure of players at various parts of the tour on paternity leave. Flower hopes, however, that the lessons learned in the UAE and the emergence of several promising young players can help England recover lost ground.

[P_R]

illennu sollvingala..
sollamAttEnnu vachchukkungaLEn...irundhaalum ippadiyApatta oru team kooda mOdhaNumAnnu oru yOsanai.
reNdu pErai leave edukka sonnA dhaan, match aagumnu ninaichchEn...naan ninaicha maadhiriyE :mrgreen:

IPL viLayAdittu family time kEttA get out, series thoththuttu paternity leave kEttA cut-outA...kondhaLippugaLai edhirpArkkiREn :lol2:

btw yaar leave pOduradhu? :-(

[Plum]

Janice: so I hear you hate me
Joey: I never said 'hate'. I was very careful about that

indha andy flower vElai ellAm vENAm. You are guilty of placing a smaller achievement over bigger acheivement by introducing non-verifiable concepts like spiritual #1 Mcdowerll #1 etc.
That just doesnt wash.

Look at the scoreboard!

maganE, kadavuLnu oruthan irundhA, innum 20-30 varushathukku adichu ukkArthaNum indha Englandai. appO dhAn indha vekkam mAnam illAma vAi savadAllaiyE perumai pattukkaRadhu nikkum.

[P_R]

You are guilty of placing a smaller achievement over bigger acheivement
As good'lErndhu bigger-ku pOyAchchA :lol2:

Anyway second best test team in the universe.

[Plum]

As good'lErndhu bigger-ku pOyAchchA :lol2:

Anyway second best test team in the universe.


Smaller achievement is as good as bigger achievemntAlE - you are placing the smaller achievement above the bigger achivemetnnu dhAne arththam?
x>y
if you claim x=y, then you are claiming y is greater than what it is.
Dont play semantics with me. Your britishnesskellAm nAn bayappada mAttEn.

You start your clock when England won. and then ana rbitrary claim about being spiritual #1 from the Ashes 2009. Why that series? EnnA andha series dhAn comprehensiveA win paNNinga.

Thirumba thirumba "who else won 3-1"-na vENdiyadhu. idhuvE if England had several 1-0s and 2-1s and 1-1s and 2-2s and S Africa had one 3-1 and simialr results to current England, you would have highlighted th consistency and claimed that is the greater aspect. ippO irukkAradhu ore oru 3-1garadhAla, adhai highlgiht panNi adhu dhAn periya achivementna vENdiyadhu

indha British tactic ellAm evLO pArthuruppOm.

20 varusham sumMAvA adakki vechurundhAn Andavan? oru series jeyichirundhAlum Eng of 90s > Aus of 90snu claim paNNi irupPIngaLE

[P_R]

Smaller achievement is as good as bigger achievemntAlE - you are placing the smaller achievement above the bigger achivemetnnu dhAne arththam? Eh? endha oorla?


x>y
if you claim x=y, then you are claiming y is greater than what it is.
Arithmetic fail.

It is not y, it is y' and y<y' -nu sollunga.
That is your stand.

You said x=y and then slyly, cunningly, nefariously, wickedly, artfully, craftily tried to pass it off as x> y.

You stand exposed once again.
The last time was when you try to make make an announcement that Aus dominated the last Ashes in England, which was :lol2:
I guess it is a generic problem. If England is involved, and you can at best only prove that someone else were as good, you end up saying they were better!



Dont play semantics with me. Your britishnesskellAm nAn bayappada mAttEn. enna oru veera savaal! Twisting ellAm neenga paNNipputtu..


You are guilty of placing a smaller achievement over bigger acheivement
Nope.
Dhairiyam irundhA, nenjula dhil irundhA, nijamAvE neenga dhaadhAnnA, stick your neck out and say: India was a BETTER (not equal, BETTER) World NO.1 than England.
Short of that there is no internal consistency in your claim that I placed a 'smaller' achievement above a 'larger' one. (I didn't even place them 'above', adhu vERa vishayam!)

You are incapable of making any claim stronger than "both were crap when on top" but desperately want to put down England. So you are disingenuously slipping in a picture that 'India were better' when contesting my claim.

adhu nadakkAdhu baava *palm-fist punch*



You start your clock when England won. and then ana rbitrary claim about being spiritual #1 from the Ashes 2009. Why that series? EnnA andha series dhAn comprehensiveA win paNNinga. Oh, the clock should start only after a comprehensive series win? :lol2: Are you sure about that? nallA yOsichchukkunga saar. Monday varaikkin time tharEn.

Yajaman GM: yajaman, naanga ellAm akkA illAdha aambaLainga


Thirumba thirumba "who else won 3-1"-na vENdiyadhu. idhuvE if England had several 1-0s and 2-1s and 1-1s and 2-2s and S Africa had one 3-1 and simialr results to current England, you would have highlighted th consistency and claimed that is the greater aspect. I speak facts. You speak the 'would have should haves'. It's not as if I have not acknowledged England's drubbings, have I? Whereas you are the one who is hell bent on turning a blind eye to how good England were.


ippO irukkAradhu ore oru 3-1garadhAla, adhai highlgiht panNi adhu dhAn periya achivementna vENdiyadhu

Senthil to alagu-kuthu Gounder in Thangamana Rasa: aNNEn..color sAppidureengaLA?...oh..ungaLaala mudiyAdhO


ippovum solREn...media hype, on-field behaviour, other political considerations-kaaga kOvappaduREn-nu sollittu, rombavE overcompensate paNreenga.

[Plum]

thirumba thirumba enna expose? enan drawerai avuthuttA nikkaRAnga? Nonsense!

Dont play semantics - for the nth time. England were #1 for 1 year. India for 2 years. England had 1 great series. India had several good series. You are introducing the purious conceopt of "Mcdowell #1" precisely becasue you have lost the numeric #1 race.

And it is typically British.

Already 20 varusham Andavan adakki vechAn. konja varusham Attam pOttukkunga. appuRam irukku Appu indha AttathukellAm. What irrittes is highlighting precisely what stands out in your resume as the top quality to have.

[P_R]

You are yet to admit that you were deeply in the wrong in aiming the 09 Ashes was dominated by Aus and that u said that motivated purely by blinding hatred for England.
Publicly admit that first, adhukkappuRam mERkoNdu vivAdhikkiRadhai paththi yOsikkiREn.
SummA pOnA pOvudhunnu kaNdukkAma vittA, kaNdapadi pEsa vENdiyadhu.

[Plum]

"Admit that you sent derogatory text messages" mAdhiriyA? :)

Tactics kooda similarA irukkE?

You admit that you are guilty of overcooking the one top series that England have and trying to use that as the sole deciding factor for Mcdowerll's #1. appuRam pAkkalAm.

[P_R]

Rejected.
I have clearly established, for those who bothered to read that is, why I rated England highly even before the Ashes in Australia. 'Only one series' my left foot.
You just try to call every other win a 'seththa paambu'. What can I do?
The elephant in the room is the ruthless drubbing of a numerically 'and spiritually' top team.

[Plum]

No, you haven't. 2010 AsheskappuRam dhAne unga Baba Counting for "Mcdowell Nithyanandha" #1 status of England? ippO mAththi solRIngaLE?

India in England - irundha orE "Tyre"(pun intended) - Zageer kaan - kayandukittu pOchu. adhukkappuRam jimbabwe kooda engaLai derail paNNi irukkum. ninga derail paNNi dhandavalathai kazhatti petti pettiyA kazhatti urukki pErichampazhathukku pOttadhula viyappEdhum illai. unga bowling is second best in the world for some time now - othukkarEn. unga batting is fair weather friend.

That 2009 Ashes might have been a draw. SA away might have been a loss - idhellAm dhAn Baba Ramdev #1 latchaNamA? They were clearly undisputedly dominant only in 2010 Ashes and India series. Flat Opponent bullies.

Most importantly, after getting to 1, oru uruppadiyAna achievementum illai. Total surrender. Even India remianed #1 for several series - fighting tooth and nail with limited resources. adhunAla your claims are all invalid.

In retrospect England as #1 < India as #1. Only typical British tendency to claim a draw as moral victory and a loss as equal but we lost, and a victrory as all time greatness - only this is fuelling your defence

BTW, I am enjoying your loss of patience ;-)

sakthi unakkuLLayum oru mirugam irukku; adhai veLiya koNdu varuvEn

[P_R]

Equal but we lost-nu enga sonnEn?
Tell tell..

[P_R]

How can courting start after ashes 2010 when I told u they entered Ashes as favorites after ages?
Only English media and I expected it-nu sollapporeengaLA?

[Plum]

AmAm - Ponting jeyichuda kiyuchida pORAnnu nAn paNNin yAgam enakku dhAn theriyum. I actually rejoiced in that victory of England, let's not forget...

[wizzy]

some what pertinent to the on going discussion..this is Andrew Hughes, well meaning English guy who use to post in a cricket forum I frequented..had lot of run ins during India's reign @ top so glad he saw the light finally :)


Last year there were people (cricket journalists admittedly, but I’ve checked and they still count as people) who believed that England were one of the greatest sides in Test cricket. That’s okay, though. People believe all sorts of things. R Kelly, like Icarus, believed he could fly. It’s only when you act on your irrational beliefs that the problems start. For R Kelly, it was an execrable song. For Icarus, the consequences were even more unpleasant.


But in the afterglow of last summer’s walkover against Team BCCI, one or two hacks committed their crazy notions to paper. There it was, set down in black and white, an ill-advised love letter we knew they would one day regret: England were one of the greatest Test sides ever. The team of Cook, Trott and Bresnan wedged into the cricket pantheon next to Bradman’s Immortals, Clive Lloyd’s Invincibles and Steve Waugh’s Disintegrators.



So, in the light of recent and not-quite-so-recent events, we are now presented with a conundrum. On the one hand, England’s current lot are one of the greatest teams ever. On the other, they’ve lost five of their last 11 matches. As Mr Spock would tell you, logically one of these can’t be true. Perhaps it’s the second one. Maybe they haven’t really lost five Tests this year? Hang on, I’ll check. Yep. Turns out it was six



Australia 2009: Ordinary collection of has-beens, maybes and Mitchell Johnson
Australia 2011: As Australia 2009, only worse
Pakistan: The most shambolic overseas venture since the Sex Pistols’ 1978 US tour
Bangladesh: It’s Bangladesh
Sri Lanka: No Murali. No Vaas. No Malinga.
West Indies: Seriously?
India: 4-0 win ever so slightly undermined when India lost to Australia (see above).
And this doesn’t include losing a series in the Caribbean in 2009, being completely outplayed in three out of four Tests in South Africa, and collapsing to big defeats against inferior opponents with a series still alive in Perth 2010, Headingley 2009, Kingston 2009 and The Oval 2010. So: England, a good team, not a great team, who got lucky with the fixture list and enjoyed a pleasant interlude at the top of the heap.Lesson learned, chaps, we hope. Patriotism isn’t just the last refuge of the scoundrel; like a green suede jacket it can also make you look extremely silly.

http://blogs.espncricinfo.com/thelonghandle/archives/2012/08/of_patriotism_and_green_suede.php

[Plum]

Wizzy - saw that. But enakku doubtA iorukku. orEvadiya p_R rangekku Englandukku ticket eduthukitirundhavan ippO epdi mARinAn?

Seenu mAmA purchase paNNittArOnu oru doubtA irukku

[wizzy]

moral compass might have started working again after Eng no.1 reign was shorter than what he/many had imagined and Eng ticking less boxes than India though we copped so much criticism for playing tests against SA @ home to boost the rankings :lol2:

[P_R]

You guys are still reacting to media hype calling the team ATG
That's not relevant to the discussion at hand. Indeed I'd say it is an impediment to thE discussion at hand. If u remember we discussed this at length when criticizing Sanga's vayitherichal asked misunderstanding of contemporary number 1 with ATG

Plum goes to the extent of refusing to even acknowledge that Eng entered the 2010/11 Ashes as topdog. I consider that absolutely hopeless denial of the state of affairs. Let me not attempt to alter your impression of reality then.

[Plum]

Don't obfuscate. This very forum as the history of the apprehension of Engl supporters - including me - during the Ashes 2010. Ponting jeyichuduvaanonnu madiyila neruppai kattikittu naanga pOrAdinadhu maRandhu pOchA? EnnamO puduhusA nAnga obfuscate pandrA mAdhiri act kodukkaRInga?

[Puliyan_Biryani]

Plum goes to the extent of refusing to even acknowledge that Eng entered the 2010/11 Ashes as topdog.
PR idhudhaan puriya maattengudhu. Considering England's scrapping away performance in SA 2009 (3-1=>1-1) and dismal record in Aus (5-0,4-1,etc), I don't think England entered the series as clear favourites. IIRC, all the papers also said "On paper Eng looks better than Aus but have to wait and see how they perform on Aus pitches". They had a great series (othukkaren, vizhundhu kumbidaren) and managed to win comprehensively* and remove the doubts after the series. But you are saying they entered the series itself as spiritually the best team in the world. On what basis? Tally aavalaiye. Botham maadhiri aalungakooda jeyichuttudhaan pesaraanga, idhu adhukkum one step mela irukkunga. They entered the Ind series as spiritual No. 1-nu sonnaa kooda oru nyayam irukku :wink:.

* - My theory is that Aus pitches are becoming alarmingly similar to English pitches. Haven't seen so much swing in Aus like the last Ind series. So it is almost a home series for Eng :lol2:.


Ponting jeyichuduvaanonnu madiyila neruppai kattikittu naanga pOrAdinadhu maRandhu pOchA?
:exactly:. Ponting-e thevalaam-nga :known devil:.

[P_R]

Plum,

the world did not start with Strauss-Flower. That is a media narrative. For me the marked shift from being pummelled to rise to be a strong competing team starts from Usaibhai in the early '00s.

Which is why I don't believe in 'they were in the doldrums in the WIndies tour and rose like a phoenix' type thoughtless nonsense.
What actually happened in WIndies, one horrid afternoon when they got killed by Jerome Taylor. Two dead rubber pitches, one cancelled match and one which they almost won - all in all they lost the series.

Credit to WIndies for holding England off. But if you read the papers you will be given to believing England were far worse than they actually were at that point, and only the messiah Flower-Strauss delivered them. I for one found it curious that that series is treated as some sort of disaster. Wonder if that's how people think of Aus, when they got blown away last November by SA. No -accidents occur to other teams, while immediate relegation to shite happens only to England.

That they brought the very same team home in a matter of weeks and defeated them, was attributed to home conditions and Flower magic. IMO both were overrated. It was no surprise that England beat that WIndies (who btw magically transformed to seththa paambus in a matter of weeks!). They ought to have beaten them in WIndies itself. (that they didn't is to WIndies' credit, I repeat)

That was followed by the Ashes. What kind of Australia are we talking about? Yeah no Warne, McGrath, Hayden. No Benaud, Lillee, Bradman either.
A team that defeated South Africa both in Aus and S.Africa. By no means a weakling. England competed very ably and defeated them to win the Ashes. But that 'one afternoon' in WIndies was too recent for people to think highly of England yet :-) My clock starts here.

Then, as is famously remembered, they had to compete really hard to level the series in S.Africa. They were not the better team in the competition. That was when my reckoning was under threat and my note to myself was: 'atleast they didn't get toppled'. After that was a dream run that ended when they got pummelled in Dubai. This is when IMO they got knocked off the perch. Do the math.

India

That glorious Sehwag-Sachin victory in Chennai 2008 apart, I don't recall a single memorable win in the last few years.
There was this un-NewZelandy NewZealand tour, which we won.
We crushed SriLanka at home
Couldn't defeat SA at home - even conceded an innings win at home!
Couldn't defeat SL in SL (about time to make up your mind whether they were seththapaambus or not, as the 2011 SL tour to England will come up shortly)
Crushed Aus at home - first time I felt India was good. (ivan solRadhai pArthA, appo nijamaavE ivan kolai seyyalai pOla irukku da)
And then NZ came home. India looked vulnerable and disappointing. Heck, Bhajji holing us to the help draw a match ellAm :banghead: Of course India was still the better team but to struggle so hard to beat NZ at home was far from convincing.

Then of course the tour SA. Got killed in the first match, but to India's credit came back to draw the series. Even the last match, India was the one under pressure.
India won in WIndies but I expected them to perform better than they actually did.

Far from having several 'good' series, as you claim, I can only see two good ones (Aus at home and SA in SA) and many less than convincing performances.

It was a foregone conclusion that they were going to be rightfully toppled in England.

South Africa

Now let's turn our attention to SAfrica. The most 'liked' No.1 side in the world. The team everyone is eager to say 'is a deserved number 1 unlike it's two predecessors.

They defeated England in England - surely a high point.
They were defeated at home by Australia. They couldn't defeat England or India at home They couldn't defeat Pakistan in Dubai.
What were their high points? That they didn't let a strong India defeat them in India and that they managed to defeat SL at home?
Heck, as recent as November last year they couldn't defeat Aus at home!

Is that why they are somehow the undisputed team in the world now?

IMO it is their three consistent victories over England in Eng-SA-Eng are the most memorable wins for the team.

They surely are the best team in the business now. I am not questioning that at all. But this impression that there is 'spiritually' some yawning gap between them and others is something that confuses me.

[P_R]

Plum/puLiyan, before the Ashes, some English newspapers wrote they were looking forward to India's tour of England more. Can you imagine Ashes being underrated like that??
Ashes retain paNRadhellAm matterE illai 'nRa maadhiri irundhAinga. It was fairly obvious considering how England had been performing, coming into the series.

[ajithfederer]

Yes. true. The h/l was something like forget the Ashes, australia aren't that good anymore India are here next summer.

Plum/puLiyan, before the Ashes, some English newspapers wrote they were looking forward to India's tour of England more. Can you imagine Ashes being underrated like that??
Ashes retain paNRadhellAm matterE illai 'nRa maadhiri irundhAinga. It was fairly obvious considering how England had been performing, coming into the series.

[Plum]

No way. Ashes will remain the #1 for England even if Australia slip to #10. I refuse to believe this. England were hoping, not expecting. Just read Rob Smyth(as patriotic as they come, and as skilled in trying to portray England;s good as the Cricket's good) OBOs for the test matches. They never stopped fearing until they won the series.

This is a canard.

[P_R]

I refuse to believe this. Well uh..

[Plum]

Well uh..

enna well uh? adhAn reference koduthurukkEnE Rob Smyth OBO - adhula ovvoruthanum match nadakkurappO mail anuppuvAN(PR madhir hard core England fans). pOi Ashes 2010 archives padinga - appO theriyum England was so confident going into Ahses 2010 endha latchaNamnu.

apdiyyE India series OBovum pArunga - your inaccurate claim about them placing India tour over Ashes in expectation will be proven to be a lie.

idhukku pEru dhAN convenient reaction - Rob Smyth OBOnu ezhudhinA, out of the context "I refuse to believe this"-ai quote paNNi smart ass response kodukka vENdiyadhu :huh:

[P_R]

Smyth yaarunnu theriyAdhu.
Plum, I don't have the references handy. You can call me a liar for that.
Feddy, back me up here, more than one paper said this, 'cut the Ashes hype, India tour next summer is the one to look forward to'.

Ahead of the Ashes, it was fairly obvious to anyone following both the sides.

"Oh England are this good, is it?"-nu appo dhaan wake-up-and-smell the coffee paNNavanga kittayAvadhu 'indho paar raja'-nu explain paNNalaam. 'no they only beat seththa paambus'-nu denial-la vaazhravangaLaiyin oNNum paNNa mudiyAdhu.

Glad I lived in this times to tell my grandchildren the truth. Else history would be written blacking out this glorious, fantabulous, incredible, wondrous, phenomenal run.

[ajithfederer]

I did. I remember either me posting it here or reading here. Definitely either one(or) both


Feddy, back me up here, more than one paper said this, 'cut the Ashes hype, India tour next summer is the one to look forward to'.

It was fairly obvious to anyone following both the sides.

[Plum]

What brazen lies! Who is following English press closely? You or me? Just take my word for it - india tour 3rd match varaikkin England press were pre-election result amAvAsai. Lord's la Zagir mutti seththu pOga sollO English journalists sat up. Prior kaNNAdi udaikkaRachE chairla. Nottinghamla Broad run adikkaRachE "dei maNiyA". By the time that series ended dei india jatti thuvaichu pOdudA. Idhu dhaan nijam.
SummA arai kuRaiyA paper padichuttu oLaRa koodAdhu :evil:. I quoted Smytj because he does over by over reports - typical english feeyars send mails(like cricinfo). Ange closeA pArthavan dhaan Englishman psychology solla mudiyin. NAn pArthEnpA nAn pArthEn - England kAran saranya doctor kai kulukkaRadhai nAn pArthEnpA nAn pArthEn. TheriyAdhavanga pEsaDhinga :banghead:

[Plum]

And what is this straw man you are setting up? Who said England werent deserving #1s for the 11 months they were there. rendu series adichu thuvaichAnga. udanE romba koovAdhInga - 22 months irundha India vida periya achievement adhu idhunnu koovinadhu yAaru? unga ALunga dhAnE?

You are the one building ATG narratives. adhai thappunnu sonnA strawman setup paNNa vENdiyadhu. Mike Selvi kitta pesaRA mAdhiriyE irukku :banghead:

[P_R]

Plum will defer to u on general Envlish press
Will backtrack and say something weaker: It should have been clear to anyone following the sport - as it was to me- who was going to win the Ashes 10/11.

I have elaborated why my clock started where it did and ended where it did.
I built no ATG narratives.
OTOH you reluctant to start the clock any earlier than u r absolutely forced to numerically. :lol2:

[19thmay]

P_R vs Plum sandai-nu oru thread aarambichu sanda podungappa...why it is discussed in Eng Vs SA thread?

[P_R]

By calling their emphatic victories as against seththa paambus u indeed are discounting their #1 status.
By refusing to acknowledge how excellent England was u r basically denying Holocaust. You can be arrested in Poland.

[Plum]

HolocaustE needhaanyA paNNurE? (Godwin's law)

oru Series 3-1. adhu dhAn absolute dominance. adhulayum bayandhukittE dhAnE irundhInga. Perthla thOthavuNE - "avan vara mAttAn...mandabathula ezhudina kavidhai"-nu England dharumis polambinadhai pArthurundhA nInga pEsavE mAttinga.


appuRam innoru vishayam - strwman setup paNNinga, nAnum badhilukku kObathula sonNEn. udanE Selvey, ECB rangelku "Text message anuppiniyA" "text message anuppiniyA"-nu England style-laiyE oru vishayathaio pudichukuittu past present future elLAthukkum justify paNNikurIngaLE. Englis gendilman dhAn :clap:

TActics, tactics, ennamA Englis tactics!

[Plum]

appuRam ungaLukkellAm ondru kooRA aasai padugiRen....Guardian Forumla Mike Selvi mAdhiri pakka Englis gendilman-aiyE "inimE indha Forum comment section pakkam vandhEnna ennai seruppAla adinga"-nu solli Oda vecha veera tamizhan parambarai nAngallAm. endha salasalappukkum anja mAttOm

adhaavadhu, Englis gendilman-na epdiyellAm twisted logic pEsuvAn? ennamA cover paNnuvAn? illAdha pollAdha sAljAppellAm solluvAn? andha jaadhilaiyE usandha specimen Selvi. bayangara lordu labakku daas, avanaiyE Oda Oda veratti irukkOm. ithOda niRuthikkunga. illainA moderator padhavi raajinAma paNdra levelukku vandhuduvInga


(Note: here I add a app_engine j/k sign:) )

[Plum]

you reluctant to start the clock any earlier than u r absolutely forced to numerically

With due respect to May 19: (hoping F_R will move this to separate thread)

Sari, engErundhu ArambikkaNum. From 3-1 right?. adhukkappuRam?oru SL series at home. adhula mukki mukki 1-0 win. adhuvum a lucky suicide by Lanka in Cardiff. And then India. Who gave up after second test. Yes, it was 4-0 but if India had fought like a proper Cricket side, it wouldnt have been.

That is all.

That is all
That is all

Two Dominant series, one of them against an Australia with Mitch Johnson(sari idhai mannichu full credit kudukkaREn) and another a India side with Rudra Pregnant Singh! That is all, my dear folks, that is all. idhukkE Nithyanahdna #1 Mcdowerll #1-nu pudhusu pudhusA invent ellAm paNDrInga? :huh:

[P_R]

Clock starts end of Ashes 2009 and ends in Dubai. Whupped any team in the world save the inconsistent SA.
Got found out in Dubai.

Selvey parallels are signature smears.

[P_R]

Regarding only one dominating series...

GM: mAmanAr enakkAga mill katturaar
Senthil: rice millA Irukkum
GM: irundhuttu pOgattum, unakku pal kattavE vakku illaiyE

[Plum]

nAnsense - LankavE unga sondha maNnula thaNNI kAmichuchE - maRandhu vitadhA?

Ashes 2010, India 2011 - ivLo dhAn hall of fame.

2008-la indhiavidam(Virus, Sach) adi pattu udhai pattadhu maRandhu vittadhA? 2007la Rahul Dravidan vandhAn vendRAn ena England vijayam seidhadhu maRandhu vittadhA?

Pakistan unga sondha maNNula toe-to-toe porAdinadhu maRandhu pOchA? 103-8. Hekc, evne RP pregnant singh India slipped you to 124-8.

Dont rewrite history

[P_R]

I wrote a long post this weekend about the teams the various teams England played against and how rhu fared well against teams that can't b e written away. SaththamE varalai. Incapable of facing the fact that a team from England could be as good as they actually were!

[Plum]

ungaLukku oru mill irukkaRadhAla, oru mill irukkaRavan millionairenu dhAnE argue paNdrInga?

enga kitta oru milla illAma irukkalAm. but pala nooru acre nanjai irundhudhu. punjai irundhdhu. pump set irundhudhu. tractor irundhudhu. idhellAm unga kitta illaiyE?

I dont want to claim anything - you are the one buying ticket for special status based on one mill.

[Plum]

I wrote a long post this weekend about the teams the various teams England played against and how rhu fared well against teams that can't b e written away. SaththamE varalai. Incapable of facing the fact that a team from England could be as good as they actually were!

Weekendla pAkkalAm. Long post nangaLm ezhudhuvOm. History rewrie paNna koodAdhu

[P_R]

Goalpost shifted again back to ATG dominance comparison!
PramAdham. Infinite loopla odumA idhu?

[P_R]

No. You are the one insisting on series domination as a yardstick. I am graciously offering u withdraw it as it will be counterproductive when assessing India's stint.

[wizzy]

P_R for your eyes only.. Ind Vs Eng comparison @ top...Eng batting avgs makes for a interesting reading after being no. 1 :-D

http://www.cricbuzz.com/cricket-news/52307/india-as-no.1-v-england-as-no.-1,-a-comparison

[P_R]

Pala nooru acre kizhichudhu.

[P_R]

Weekendla pAkkalAm. Long post nangaLm ezhudhuvOm. History rewrie paNna koodAdhu
U r the one denying that something historic happened right under ur nose

[Plum]

What did you understand at all You are setting up so many strawmen I am tired :huh:

ozhungA modhallErundhu varuvOmA? I am really tired of your strawmen

[Plum]

U r the one denying that something historic happened right under ur nose

11 Months England wer #1. Who is denying it? unga Mcdowerll Algorithm created by Feeyar ellAm othukka myudiyAdhu? whats rewriting histroy about it? :huh:

You are the one rewriting history with your own Nithayanandna Spiritual Algorithms.

[ajithfederer]

Thani thread aa?. Full time fighting dhan appo. Give it a rest both of you :lol:

[P_R]

You are crediting England with only Ashes 20010/11 and India 2011 wins. Rest you are pooh-pooh'ing. That is denial.
Assess from Ashes 2009 win. Go series by series like I did and talk about the performances. How good the opposition was and how England performed against them.
In fact - issue a statement against the media campaign that England was pathetic when they lost in WIndies (and messiah Andy Flower appeared).

[P_R]

Thani thread aa?. Full time fighting dhan appo. Give it a rest both of you :lol:
Actually I give up.
When reading clipping the posts out for this thread I read it serially. IMO that should more than suffice for anyone reading this thread to reach reasonable conclusions.
I have nothing more to add.
Plum you can take it as a victory, call me a liar and what not.
We have both failed to convince each other.

[wizzy]

thread should read 'Ex ATG team England' :)

P_R, after Eng's brief reign @ top don't tell me you didn't expect this backlash..more so with Eng supporters/writers who were taking every opportunity to pooh-pooh the rankings/schooling us on how India were 'less deserving' in contrast to this no.1 Eng side with an endless supply of phast bowlers/young bats in the pink of health..ATG or not this Eng couldn't even scale up to that undeserving no.1 Indian side even though they had most things in their favour w.r.t young bats/phast bowlers being injury free/home tests to prolong their reign @ top..
what could have possibly gotten wrong :roll:

[ajithfederer]

Two points i disagree.

1) Statistical error. Aus lost to SA in Aus before the 2009 Ashes. 2-1 They lost.

2) India losing the series was not a foregone conclusion. I will repeat till the day I watch cricket Zaheer's inclusion alone would have made a difference. Hell all england wishers were jumping up with joy when he pulled out after 1st day's 3 wickets. Eng beat a depleted India - that is a fact.

P.S: SA still have to beat Aus in home and it would be great to see how they do in Aus. I earlier asked in an other thread when SA is touring India. I don't see any fixture before 2015 WC which is a shame. Their No 1 status is already safe then. Pull them for a 4 test tour and prepare spin tracks let's see who is the No1.

Aus defeating SA will make SA no 2, eng no 3 and Aus 1. (Hypothetically speaking)
Ind defeating both Eng and Aus at home (hehehe) could push them back to 1 again. I would love to see your reaction then.
:noteeth:

Plum,

the world did not start with Strauss-Flower. That is a media narrative. For me the marked shift from being pummelled to rise to be a strong competing team starts from Usaibhai in the early '00s.

Which is why I don't believe in 'they were in the doldrums in the WIndies tour and rose like a phoenix' type thoughtless nonsense.
What actually happened in WIndies, one horrid afternoon when they got killed by Jerome Taylor. Two dead rubber pitches, one cancelled match and one which they almost won - all in all they lost the series.

Credit to WIndies for holding England off. But if you read the papers you will be given to believing England were far worse than they actually were at that point, and only the messiah Flower-Strauss delivered them. I for one found it curious that that series is treated as some sort of disaster. Wonder if that's how people think of Aus, when they got blown away last November by SA. No -accidents occur to other teams, while immediate relegation to shite happens only to England.

That they brought the very same team home in a matter of weeks and defeated them, was attributed to home conditions and Flower magic. IMO both were overrated. It was no surprise that England beat that WIndies (who btw magically transformed to seththa paambus in a matter of weeks!). They ought to have beaten them in WIndies itself. (that they didn't is to WIndies' credit, I repeat)

That was followed by the Ashes. What kind of Australia are we talking about? Yeah no Warne, McGrath, Hayden. No Benaud, Lillee, Bradman either.
A team that defeated South Africa both in Aus and S.Africa. By no means a weakling. England competed very ably and defeated them to win the Ashes. But that 'one afternoon' in WIndies was too recent for people to think highly of England yet :-) My clock starts here.

Then, as is famously remembered, they had to compete really hard to level the series in S.Africa. They were not the better team in the competition. That was when my reckoning was under threat and my note to myself was: 'atleast they didn't get toppled'. After that was a dream run that ended when they got pummelled in Dubai. This is when IMO they got knocked off the perch. Do the math.

India

That glorious Sehwag-Sachin victory in Chennai 2008 apart, I don't recall a single memorable win in the last few years.
There was this un-NewZelandy NewZealand tour, which we won.
We crushed SriLanka at home
Couldn't defeat SA at home - even conceded an innings win at home!
Couldn't defeat SL in SL (about time to make up your mind whether they were seththapaambus or not, as the 2011 SL tour to England will come up shortly)
Crushed Aus at home - first time I felt India was good. (ivan solRadhai pArthA, appo nijamaavE ivan kolai seyyalai pOla irukku da)
And then NZ came home. India looked vulnerable and disappointing. Heck, Bhajji holing us to the help draw a match ellAm :banghead: Of course India was still the better team but to struggle so hard to beat NZ at home was far from convincing.

Then of course the tour SA. Got killed in the first match, but to India's credit came back to draw the series. Even the last match, India was the one under pressure.
India won in WIndies but I expected them to perform better than they actually did.

Far from having several 'good' series, as you claim, I can only see two good ones (Aus at home and SA in SA) and many less than convincing performances.

It was a foregone conclusion that they were going to be rightfully toppled in England.

South Africa

Now let's turn our attention to SAfrica. The most 'liked' No.1 side in the world. The team everyone is eager to say 'is a deserved number 1 unlike it's two predecessors.

They defeated England in England - surely a high point.
They were defeated at home by Australia. They couldn't defeat England or India at home They couldn't defeat Pakistan in Dubai.
What were their high points? That they didn't let a strong India defeat them in India and that they managed to defeat SL at home?
Heck, as recent as November last year they couldn't defeat Aus at home!

Is that why they are somehow the undisputed team in the world now?

IMO it is their three consistent victories over England in Eng-SA-Eng are the most memorable wins for the team.

They surely are the best team in the business now. I am not questioning that at all. But this impression that there is 'spiritually' some yawning gap between them and others is something that confuses me.

[P_R]

thread should read 'Ex ATG team England' :)

P_R, after Eng's brief reign @ top don't tell me you didn't expect this backlash..more so with Eng supporters/writers who were taking every opportunity to pooh-pooh the rankings/schooling us on how India were 'less deserving' in contrast to this no.1 Eng side with an endless supply of phast bowlers/young bats in the pink of health..ATG or not this Eng couldn't even scale up to that undeserving no.1 Indian side even though they had most things in their favour w.r.t young bats/phast bowlers being injury free/home tests to prolong their reign @ top..
what could have possibly gotten wrong :roll:

See, that is exactly the point. You guys are reacting to the English media hype and ATG claims. ATG illainnu naanE paRpala thadavai solliyAchchu.
Who are you debating with then?

Who makes 'domination' as a yardstick? Who made the false allegation that Ashes '09 was dominated by Aus? Who has been devaluing every (both!) dominating series of England as - yeah, no big deal?

All for what? For my claim that England were #1 for longer than a year. Something I believe I have substantiated in the post Feddy has responded to above.

[P_R]

1) Statistical error. Aus lost to SA in Aus before the 2009 Ashes. 2-1 They lost.
You are right. I stand corrected. Aus lost to SA in Aus in 2008.
However, the avenged themselves in the series before the 2009 Ashes was Aus in SA.


2) India losing the series was not a foregone conclusion. I will repeat till the day I watch cricket Zaheer's inclusion alone would have made a difference. Hell all england wishers were jumping up with joy when he pulled out after 1st day's 3 wickets. Eng beat a depleted India - that is a fact.
Agree to disagree.



Ind defeating both Eng and Aus at home (hehehe) could push them back to 1 again. I would love to see your reaction then.
:noteeth: koNdaanga adhaiyum rasichchu vaippOm :lol2: All homes are equal, all abroads are equal. Therefore, adhuvum oru isai :D

[ajithfederer]

BTW, What is your prediction for Ind-eng series?. Ippove kettu vechukitta pinnala vasadhiya irukkum !

[wizzy]

ATG illainnu naanE paRpala thadavai solliyAchchu..Who are you debating with then?
forget ATGness..Eng weren't worthy no.1 is my qualm..other than beating 'exhausted' India/OZ hacks what have they done..drew a series against Murali-less SL/whitewashed by 5th ranked Pak..basement rombae weak :huh:


Who makes 'domination' as a yardstick?
freewheeling thinkers of the game :lol2: Indian side which was @ top for 20+ months was our best test side ever assembled and
the overall consensus seems to be the same about OZ/WI no.1 test sides being their best sides ever..can you say the same about this Eng side which was touted to be one??..for starters Vaughan's side which won the Ashes against 'that' OZ side/overseas victory in WI/SA have checked more boxes than this side so there lies the difference imo

[P_R]

wizzy, beating only two weak teams..unselected. Plum kOvamA sonnadhai neenga polite-A solreenga. prachanai ellAm oNNu dhaan. I have described at length England's rise to the top - post Feddy quoted. I think that was a highly impressive run. Thassal.

Indian side which was @ top for 20+ months was our best test side ever assembled
unga captainukku idhu theriyumA :lol2:


BTW, What is your prediction for Ind-eng series?. Ippove kettu vechukitta pinnala vasadhiya irukkum !
Prediction: England won't win a single test and India will win the series.

[Arvind Srinivasan]

Andrew Strauss has announced his retirement....

[PARAMASHIVAN]

All the best Strauss

1717

[wizzy]

unga captainukku idhu theriyumA :lol2:

for long we were basically minnows in tests save for few ATG performances here and there..care to mention any other Indian side which got the results as well as had the ATG players :huh: imo class of 2008-2011 will be long remembered as golden generation in Indian cricket.

[P_R]

:shock:

Just now made 2 back to back centuries! Why the deuce is he retiring?
Quitting captaincy is one thing -thistoomach.

[littlemaster1982]

Err, that was against WI. He averages 30 or something over the last two years.

[wizzy]

Strauss retirement has really put a spanner in the works wrt their batting lineup..Trott to open with Cook/Bell @ 3 and everyone else to move a position up..this makes KP's position in the lineup almost impregnable :noteeth: even in Strauss's press conference scribes were more anxious to know about chances of KP touring India..morality test of sorts for Andy.. exciting times ahead :)

[P_R]

Yeah, so? After a drought he came back to score those runs.
Now just because he didn't perform against SA, he has to retire??

He did well in India last time. Now, just because of Dubai, he is giving up on performing in the subcontinent?
Cook-Strauss put up a decent stand in Colombo, that laid the platform for KP.

Irresponsible of him to leave England in the lurch when they are going to face India in India. Particularly when KP is not going to play and the team is already weak.
There is nobody groomed for the challenge.

And the media already praising his 'timing' :roll:

[P_R]

Strauss's record in India is Amlasque :shock: hope he retires :mrgreen: :shock:
As B(K) would ask: who are you? Are you Dhanush's man?

[PARAMASHIVAN]

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/files/2012/07/Sir-Winston-Churchill.jpgWe were a better team in my days :x

[Plum]

keduvAn kEdu ninaippAn. Flower/ECB played a media campaign game against KP to oust him. But they ended up losing Strauss in the process. There is a moral in this story for Andy Pooh.
(actually, there is a moral in this story for me - and I am learning the moral and implementing it immediat !)

[wizzy]

Strauss saying he had thought about retiring before the SA series started is a load of tosh..me thinks it was Mr. rules Andy who pulled his plug to make way for Captain Cook.. nothing explains Strauss calling it before India series where he has a admirable record even with ZK playing..redux of Gangs-Greg-Dravid episode..only difference being Strauss's pride/lack of commercial interests pushed him to retire from tests.

[ajithfederer]

Indha madhiri safety'kaaga same side goal adikaradhellam too much. :lol2:



Prediction: England won't win a single test and India will win the series.

[P_R]

Feddy prediction is different (aRivu saarndhadhu), wish is different (manasu saarndhadhu)
Wish is for KPless England to defeat India comprehensively and for everyone except Sachin to flop.

Now with Strauss gone, irundha oru mukkA kai baniyanum pOchchu
Highly irresponsible decision. Kinda pissed with him.

[P_R]

Who will open? Bopara? Suththam!

[ajaybaskar]

Strauss is the third English captain to quit captaincy after being tarnished by SA.

[wizzy]

Highly irresponsible decision. Kinda pissed with him.

selfish decision..should have called it after a tough overseas tour.


Who will open? Bopara? Suththam!

Jimmy Adams fits the bill..tall left hand opening bat but Andy will opt for Nick Compton in the middle order(if KP isn't picked) and get Trott to open.

[ajithfederer]

Indha madhiri romba per irukkinga Tamilnaatula :fatigue: Seriously what's the point. If you are wishing go for the full monty. What's the point in Tendulkar alone performing and team flopping eh?


Wish is for KPless England to defeat India comprehensively and for everyone except Sachin to flop.

[P_R]

What's the point in Tendulkar alone performing and team flopping eh?
Revenge for Laxman.
Only old hands are good, new ones are garbage-nu establish paNRadhukku.

I know Chet, Kohl, Kaudham will all do well.

[P_R]

selfish decision..should have called it after a tough overseas tour. Why would he have called after SL, when he had a good opening stand with Cook?

Captaincy quitting now to groom Cook okay. But why retire as a player and leave the team in lurch, when going to India, which tough already!

I have a creeping feeling that the whole KP issue will now be blown away as a KP-Strauss standoff and he will be eased back into the team. :x

[wizzy]

Kaudham will all do well

now I get what you're up to ;-) this Indian team isn't worthy of your Chatterjees saar..save it for Ashes :mrgreen:

[P_R]

If you are wishing go for the full monty. What's the point in Tendulkar alone performing and team flopping eh?

Neenga 'Sachin irukkura team jeyikkaNum' type rasigar. "Naan oru kalaignan, azhagai rasikkiRavan yee-know" range dhaan.
I deeply resent the 'rise' of young India.

[P_R]

now I get what you're up to ;-) this Indian team isn't worthy of your Chatterjees saar..save it for Ashes :mrgreen:

I never chatterjise. I know he will do well at home, even though I want everyone to flop 'ngREn.

[wizzy]

Why would he have called after SL, when he had a good opening stand with Cook?

ada I meant he should have called it after the Indian tour for the reason you have sighted here
But why retire as a player and leave the team in lurch, when going to India, which tough already!


KP issue will now be blown away as a KP-Strauss standoff and he will be eased back into the team.

that's the idea..KP will text Sehwag on means to get Cook out :noteeth:

[ajithfederer]

Time Out

'Preserve Tendulkar and Zaheer for South Africa 2013'
Harsha Bhogle, Sanjay Manjrekar and Sambit Bal discuss India's Test options and the changes they need to make starting this home season
ESPNcricinfo staff
August 29, 2012



http://www.espncricinfo.com/india/content/current/story/579974.html

[ajithfederer]

Has the time come for someone like Ajinkya Rahane to open the batting in Tests, with Virender Sehwag dropping down the order? (13.00 - 17.34)
SB: Sehwag doesn't want to open in the long term, and he's been saying that for a while. He is not getting younger and his hand-eye co-ordination is not getting better, I don't think he's your opener for South Africa. That's the problem I have with this team, not the turning pitches. For 2013, you should be getting the batting order right which I don't think they do right now.

SM: In the first innings of the Hyderabad Test, [Gautam] Gambhir and Sehwag put on 38 runs and that was the highest partnership for them in the last 11 innings, which were played overseas. I'm convinced that Gambhir and Sehwag cannot be your opening combination in South Africa. The problem with playing them in the home season is that they'll get runs and you'll feel you have an in-form opening pair that you'll take to South Africa. It's a huge gamble. This is the disappointment that I have with the selection that nobody's thinking long-term, but in India, as a country, we never think long-term. To expect Sehwag in overseas conditions to give India the kind of starts he used to in his pomp is unreasonable.

[wizzy]

I know he will do well at home

fat chance..I can see Ashwin scoring more runs than him...his numbers are worse than Strauss for the last 2 years...he couldn't even score against Windies/Kiwis @ home.

[ajithfederer]

Idhula rendu koalty aa?

Neenga 'Sachin irukkura team jeyikkaNum' type rasigar. "Naan oru kalaignan, azhagai rasikkiRavan yee-know" range dhaan.


:lol:


I deeply resent the 'rise' of young India.

[selvakumar]

Strauss might have dreamt of doing a Steve Waugh. But it had flopped unfortunately. Anyway, good for him and england :mrgreen:

[ajithfederer]

Selva(If I Am Not Wrong) you are an english team fan right?. Here you go pr you have company.!!

[PARAMASHIVAN]

If Englane beat India in this December, would they regain their Crown Kohinoor?

[Plum]

STAT 1
Ashes 2009
Overall figures
Team Mat Won Lost Tied Draw W/L Ave RPO HS LS
England 5 2 1 0 2 2.00 34.15 3.77 435 102
Australia 5 1 2 0 2 0.50 40.64 3.63 674 160

[Plum]

STAT 2
Ashes 2009

Australia - 8 Centuries
England - 2 Centuries

[Plum]

STAT 3

Overall figures Team Players Mat Inns Overs Mdns Runs Wkts BBI BBM Ave Econ SR 5 10
Australia 14 5 50 759.3 124 2723 81 5/21 6/71 33.61 3.58 56.2 2 0
England 15 5 45 793.2 138 2775 69 6/91 8/158 40.21 3.49 68.9 4 0

[Plum]

Batting Average Differential ~= 6 Runs in Australia's favour
Bowling Average Differential ~= 7 Runs in Australia's favour.

[Plum]

In Comparison to the 2011 Patuadi Series in which England "annihilated" India:

Overall figures Team Players Mat Inns NO Runs HS Ave BF SR 100 50 0 4s 6s
England 13 4 56 9 2643 294 56.23 4423 59.75 7 11 4 316 10
India 16 4 88 8 1906 146* 23.82 3824 49.84 3 9 16 274 9

Batting Average Differential ~=10 Runs in England's favour

magA janangaLE - 10 runs differential-la England jeyichA England absolutely dominated
6 runs differential Austarliakku irukm bOdhu (adhuvum Bowling differentialum avanga favourla irukkum bOdhu) England jeyichA, adhu England dominance

Stats dont lie! kavarchi vAsagangaLai kaNdu EMARa vENdAm naNbargaLE. theera visArithAl uNmai veLi vandhE theerum! ungaLukkAga uNmaiyai veLi koNdu vandhirukkiREn. padiththu vittu yOsiththu uNmaiyai uNarndhu koLLungaL, mudindhAl

[P_R]

reNdu naaL mukkunadhukku innum konjam force-A edhirpArththEn. chappu-nu pOchchu :lol2:

[Plum]

Arrogant moderator - you stand exposed. Ennamo idhuve engalukku vElaiyA? Time kediachappo 5 nimishathula lEsA stats pArthadhukkE ivlo thella thelivaa theriyudhu. If you speak properly, you'll get respectful responses. Ipdi ellaathukkum "stats, ranking edhaiyum othukka maatten. En perception dhaan correct even if proved otherwise"-nu sonnaa you are the arrogant ------ . Disgusted!

[P_R]

I told you I already give up. There is sufficient information in the thread for people to make their inferences. Why are you bent upon persisting?
Centuries, Batting average differential-nu comedy paNNikittu. Just go match by match in both the series and see your tales wilt.
ippo 'India was not dominated last summer'-nu solRa verge-ku kadhai solla vandhaachchu. enna oru varaaltru thiribu!

[P_R]

Andy Flower version of the same: while the statistics to which my attention have been drawn, seem unlikely to alter my inferences, it does not preclude the possibility that it may appeal to other readers. Whether this appeal may or may not have an overlap with pre-conceived opinions that these readers possess, is quite unnecessary for me to comment on. I congratulate the generator of the statistic for widening the scope of discussion from the normal parameters within which contests are assessed to other yardsticks, even if some consider it is a mere intellectual, or even arithmetic, indulgence which traditional followers of the game may find novel.

[selvakumar]

Selva(If I Am Not Wrong) you are an english team fan right?. Here you go pr you have company.!!
I like England team and want them to win. But Strauss oru arai mandayan. Ivvalavu scene poduvaannu ethir paarkala. Nenja nakki retire aagura type pola :mrgreen: But it didn't suit him IMO. :P True champion will motivate himself and make a strong comeback. Nothing will affect them. The way these guys are quitting makes me feel as if Dhoni is a gladiator :lol:
Also, the latest developments and the a{u)ctions taken by english cricket board is funny. I agree with Plum on some of the points that he raised about English board. I don't think they are number 1. The way they lost in India and how they did a NewZealand in the last Indian tour of england makes me feel like that. Certainly not like the Aussies or the late WIs. They are like India when India claims they are the NO.1.

[littlemaster1982]

They are like India when India claims they are the NO.1.

We never claimed we were world beaters in the mould of 80's WI and 00's Aus like how Eng did all these days :twisted:

[selvakumar]

We never claimed we were world beaters in the mould of 80's WI and 00's Aus like how Eng did all these days :twisted:
Illenga.. At least media did that. I know fans didn't claim that as much as english fans.

[littlemaster1982]

I don't remember reading anything like that in our media. Defending our no.1 status is not the same as claiming as world dominators for years to come.

[wizzy]

^+1 if anything our self loathing pundits chastised our team's ranking.

[ajithfederer]

Selva, India were never even allowed to think they were No 1 let alone brag it.

P.S: I see a possible scenario which could develop over the next 8-10 months. Eng lost No1 to SA and SA losing to Aus will make Aus No 1. If Ind wins Eng in Ind it will make us No 3 or possibly No 2. If India beats Aus in Ind then we are pretty sure to be No 1 :lol:. What a circle of events in 2 years. The beautiful thing is every big cricketing nation would be No 1 before if we get it. Somebody bookmark this post if this really happens I am the one who predicted it 1st :twisted: :smokesmirk:

[P_R]

And then when Aus goes to Eng next year. adhaiyum sErththu sollunga :lol2:

[ajithfederer]

Doesnt' matter you have to beat no 1 to be no 1. Eng and Aus would be neither :poke:. Ungala thorathinadhe periya inbam :poke:

[wizzy]

Punter has really cursed the rankings..ICC should rank teams from 2nd to save us the trouble :)

[Plum]

Feeyaar - I never knew you can be so petty. Why are you putting words in my mouthu? My blood is boiling - ipdiyellaamA twist pannuvinga? I am staggered :shock:. When did I say england didn't dominate India last year? Edhu sonnaalum En twist panniye solringa? Why this complete lack of confidence in your pov? What happened to you sakthivel? Aruvaal eduthuttaapla? :)

I disgusted - what I put forward was overall series stats - that simply cannot lie. If ppl don't see this, they don'tdeserve any wisdom from me. To twist that as you have done is shameful. You must be ashamed of yourself. Chee!

[P_R]

Feeyaar - I never knew you can be so petty. Why are you putting words in my mouthu? My blood is boiling - ipdiyellaamA twist pannuvinga? I am staggered :shock:. When did I say england didn't dominate India last year?


magA janangaLE - 10 runs differential-la England jeyichA England absolutely dominated
6 runs differential Austarliakku irukm bOdhu (adhuvum Bowling differentialum avanga favourla irukkum bOdhu) England jeyichA, adhu England dominance



Edhu sonnaalum En twist panniye solringa? Blatant lie

Why this complete lack of confidence in your pov? Blatant lie coupled with arrogant condescension.

What happened to you sakthivel? Aruvaal eduthuttaapla? :) Blatant lie coupled with duplicitous show of paRivu 'eppadi irundha manusan' etc. calculated to confuse audience, who have read the whole thread and make their conclusions. Desparate grasp at straws.


I disgusted - what I put forward was overall series stats - that simply cannot lie.
It is my reckoning, assessment that stats do not throw any insight on the relative performance/competitiveness of the teams who played. I even suggested an approach that may serve you better: 'go match by match and assess the proceedings'.


If ppl don't see this, they don'tdeserve any wisdom from me. Bushism.

To twist that as you have done is shameful. I have done no twisting. The question of shame does not arise. On the other hand, you have alleged twisting when I have done none. Therefore...

You must be ashamed of yourself. Chee! -nu ellAm naan solla mAttEn. *adjusts bow tie*

[P_R]

6 runs differential Austarliakku irukm bOdhu (adhuvum Bowling differentialum avanga favourla irukkum bOdhu) England jeyichA, adhu England dominance
appadinnu naan sonnEnA??
And you are the one to talk about putting 'word in mouths' ?? :lol2:

You lied through your teeth that Aus dominated that series. You were called on that (exposed-nu sonnA vERa ungaLukku pudikkAdhu).
I merely said it was an 'equally competed series' which England won. Even that was unacceptable to you. So you have to start alleging me of saying things I never said.
And you are the one to talk about straw-men?

[Plum]

You are just suggesting a different approach. Adhukk edhukku ivlo condescension? And you are one to complain about bushism and condescension? You are 0misusing my lack of time to write in detail and misinterpreting erything I say. Stats are an important tool in analysis - if I cherry pick stats, then you can complain. But I gave full stats. That's a very valid approach - more valid than your subjective opinion. To go so much on offensive and try to keep sayinmg "you are exposed" shos you don't have anything proper to answer.

Instead of that, try giving an objective view on why this much of overwhelming statistical evidence doesn't count. I compared the England India series just to show that even in a series England thumped India, the batting differential was only slightly more than what it was in that Ashes series. Adhai misinterpret panni, condescendingA pesina, I can only conclude you want to avoid a constructive discussin along those lines. Is it not? SubjectiveA pesina sandai varudhunnu dhaanebjectiveA stats potten? Your reactions arehte ones muddying this debate. If you rein yourself in from sweeping conclusions, this can be constructive. Bow tie - yeah, eNglis gendilmannaale adpi dhaane.

[P_R]

You are just suggesting a different approach. Adhukk edhukku ivlo condescension?
Not me. You are the one suggesting a 'different' approach to assessing series performance.
The whole wide world and it's cousin goes by match by match and assesses the series.
I am saying simply and directly that I - that's just me, not everyone else- am not convinced by your statistics.
Team A made more centuries but lost the series therefore - ellAm one of the several points-A pOttirukkeenga. enakku vEdikkaiyA irukku


You are 0misusing my lack of time to write in detail and misinterpreting erything I say.
evvaLavu time vEnumO eduththukkunga. indha weekend oorukku pOREn. indha pakkamE varamAttEn. dhaNdaal, baski ellAm eduththu ezhudhi vainga, vandhu padikkiREn.
But pray, where am I misinterpreting you-nu sonnA purinjikka vasadhiyA irukkum.

"Is this all you have to show?" -nu kEttEn. i.e. this is an absolutely weak argument that demonstrates little' is my opinion. Let's be very clear, it is not ME but YOU who is suggesting this 'different' approach.


Stats are an important tool in analysis - if I cherry pick stats, then you can complain. But I gave full stats. That's a very valid approach - more valid than your subjective opinion. To go so much on offensive and try to keep sayinmg "you are exposed" shos you don't have anything proper to answer.
So you are of the opinion that Aus dominated Ashes 2009, is it? And these stats supposedly back you up, do they?
If that is your point then I doff my hat and will take no further part in the proceedings, as I said earlier.

And you know just as well as I do that what I am saying is not subjecting. An overall impression of the match is looked at following the proceedings day by day and giving an account of what happened. This does not tantamount to ignoring statistics but not being constrained by restricitng oneself to not looking beyond them. Statistics do inform, but you know just as well as I do, that they don't make points by themselves.

As you say England, by your delta batting average metric, wasn't significantly ahead of India in Gavaskar-Pataudi trophy. But we know India weren't on top for more than 3 sessions in the entire series. Isn't it? Are you going to disagree with that ('weren't on the top' appadingradhellAm opinion, objective metric kudu -nu kEkka pOreengaLA?)


Instead of that, try giving an objective view on why this much of overwhelming statistical evidence doesn't count.
The burden of proof rests on the one who introduced the novel metric. i.e. YOU. It is you who needs to establish the validity of it. Till then it is evidence of nothing. Overwhelming :lol2:


I compared the England India series just to show that even in a series England thumped India, the batting differential was only slightly more than what it was in that Ashes series. Adhai misinterpret panni, condescendingA pesina, I can only conclude you want to avoid a constructive discussin along those lines. Is it not?
Where did I misinterpret Plum? Clear-A sollunga.

What you said: If England-India is domination then (according to metric) Aus dominated England in the Ashes is a greater domination.

If that is all you were saying and nothing more: then sorry.


SubjectiveA pesina sandai varudhunnu dhaanebjectiveA stats potten? Your reactions arehte ones muddying this debate. If you rein yourself in from sweeping conclusions, this can be constructive. . Ok no more sweeps. Sorry again. But I don't believe it can be constructive.

Everything I have to say, I have already said.
The only way you can convince me that Aus 'dominated' England in that Ashes is to go match by match, session by session, and give your take on the proceedings (which, I say without sarcasm, I respect a whole lot more than these stats you are flinging at us)

[P_R]

To make things easier for you. Let me give my take

First test - thappichchOm pozhacchOm draw for England. Aus moral victory
Second test - emphatic victory for England. They choose not to enforce follow-on. andha range-ku strong
Third test - Draw. England took first innings lead. In the end, rain is the winner. And if may say so, Aus play a pointless gaaji (read batting average boosting) third innings
Fourth test - England blown away by Siddle. Never recover. Dominant innings win by Australia
Fifth test - Emphatic victory by England. Broad-Swann totally in the zone. Aus fight but are not upto the mountainous challenge in the 4th innings.

IMO it is the very definition of even contest, swinging pendulum and what not.

The question you can ask (idhaiyum naanE solla vENdi irukku paarunga, kustamappA): "if it is an even contest why does your clock start here?"
adhai vittuputtu Aus dominated this series-nu sonnA, ennaththa productive-A pEsuradhu?

[Plum]

You are just suggesting a different approach. Adhukk edhukku ivlo condescension? And you are one to complain about bushism and condescension? You are 0misusing my lack of time to write in detail and misinterpreting erything I say. Stats are an important tool in analysis - if I cherry pick stats, then you can complain. But I gave full stats. That's a very valid approach - more valid than your subjective opinion. To go so much on offensive and try to keep sayinmg "you are exposed" shos you don't have anything proper to answer.

Instead of that, try giving an objective view on why this much of overwhelming statistical evidence doesn't count. I compared the England India series just to show that even in a series England thumped India, the batting differential was only slightly more than what it was in that Ashes series. Adhai misinterpret panni, condescendingA pesina, I can only conclude you want to avoid a constructive discussin along those lines. Is it not? SubjectiveA pesina sandai varudhunnu dhaanebjectiveA stats potten? Your reactions arehte ones muddying this debate. If you rein yourself in from sweeping conclusions, this can be constructive. Bow tie - yeah

[P_R]

idhukkellAm badhil sollirukkEnungaLE. Burden of proof lies on you 'ngREn.

[P_R]

Meanwhile, since I am paramavetti I dug into the numbers.

Here is something that is interesting. Aus made more runs while losing significantly lesser number of wickets (aNNan Karthikeyar Date style stat)

Runs Wickets Avg
Aus 2732 71 38.5
Eng 2608 84 31.0

Where is this yawning gap coming from: from the near innings win in the first test and the innings win the fourth test.
Just counting these two tests, Aus lost 17 wickets less!

How many times was the Aus tail not exposed at all?
1st test 1st inns - lost only 5 wickets
1st test 2nd inns - didn't get to bat at all - match drawn
3rd test 1st inns- lost only 5 wickets
4th test 2nd inns - didn't have to bat at all - innings win

On the other hand - how many times was the Eng tail not exposed at all?
2nd test 2nd inns - even there batsman no. 8 played
3rd test 2nd inngs - didn't get to complete even the first inns because of rain

Is it any surprise that the resultant batting average of the Australia is much higher than that of England?


Now, isn't the fact that Aus made the Eng tail bat so much, itself something that shows Aus in good light. Sure it does. That's what's showing up in the bowling average.

So in effect what am I saying: nothing: just that you are 'double counting' when looking at batting and bowling averages. What you see in the batting average differential is not something independent of the what you see in the bowling average differential.

Does it by itself make a case of 'Aussie dominance'. Far from. Such a thing has to necessarily be embedded in a narrative, that I am urging you to make.

Aus were on top in the first match, which England drew - credit to England. And a draw IS a result - that is the beauty of test cricket, isn't it?
Overall in the series, the honours were even, the battle was contested hard and England won the series.

PS: I am of course ignoring you 'number of centuries' stat. It means nothing. Just like number of five wicket hauls means nothing (left as exercise).

How about this: England batted first four times out of the five tests. Which means the likelihood of losing ten wickets was higher to begin with. Shouldn't this be factored in too. Where exactly do we stop?

[Plum]

Australia lost the series - so if you talk about results, Australia WILL look bad, won't it? We are just saying look be yond that - Aus annihilated England twice - once won, once drew. England were nowhere in the picture during those tests. Now, lucky draws are lucky draws. India got one in 2008, with umpires missing out a Dhoni dismissal. There is an element of luck rather than skill involved. These are two tests Aus aced comfortably.
The two that the lost, they competed. And were in the reckoning until last day(I think) before Jesus Crist Flintoff made his redemption day.
There is a case for Australia to be conisdered to have played the better cricket by a shade. Yeah, dominated wqs over egging it but you have been heating up the atmosphere with some twisting of words so I excuse myself there :). You really are provoking me to send a text msg that "strauss is a dous" and then latching on to that one thing to keep me permanently out of the team. So to say. Not Cricket.
Leave that aside - I don't have timne to analyse further without which I will only be ranting and emotionally fighting. So let's continue this when I have some time.

[P_R]

Yeah, dominated wqs over egging it but you have been heating up the atmosphere with some twisting of words so I excuse myself there :)
avvaLo dhaan 'mpA kEttEn
I maintain I didn't twist.
Whatever you allege as twist is post-facto.
You were provoked my by claim..(adhuvum evvaLO subtle-A, suggestive-A solliyirundhEn) to the effect England were on top before they were crowned. That's what heated you up.
I'll plead guilty to that 'provocation' :-)


You really are provoking me to send a text msg that "strauss is a dous" and then latching on to that one thing to keep me permanently out of the team. :lol2: enna irundhaalum appadi oru message anuppalaamaa.


So let's continue this when I have some time. ok :wave:

[SoftSword]

I'll plead guilty to that 'provocation' :-)


am sure, this kinda thing will provoke plum even more...

[P_R]

We are just saying pala roobangal


The two that the lost, they competed. And were in the reckoning until last day(I think) before Jesus Crist Flintoff made his redemption day.

ennAdhu??
Second test Aus were shot out. A last wicket partnership was needed to get them over 200! England chose not to enforce follow-on.
They competed hard in the 4th innings true. But where they in the reckoning to chase a world record 500 odd runs?? Nah.. Fintoff took a pfeiffer, but IMO his role in the victory was smaller than it was made out to be. makkaLukku last innings disproportionate-A nyAbagam irukkum.

Pretty much same situ in the last test too. They had a mountain of runs to make. They made a respectable total but still fell short by some 200 runs.
Swann should have been MoM but Trott's 100 on debut occupied by the mind a lot.

btw this was an example of a Broad-in-the-zone performance. He removed the entire Aussie top order in one-spell. Hmm..adhellAm oru kaalam!


There is a case for Australia to be conisdered to have played the better cricket by a shade. Yeah, dominated wqs over egging it but you have been heating up the atmosphere with some twisting of words so I excuse myself there :). You really are provoking me to send a text msg that "strauss is a dous" and then latching on to that one thing to keep me permanently out of the team. So to say. Not Cricket.
Leave that aside - I don't have timne to analyse further without which I will only be ranting and emotionally fighting. So let's continue this when I have some time.[/QUOTE]

[selvakumar]

@LM - I remember reading an article in Yahoo after our world cup win comparing India to WI-AUS.

[littlemaster1982]

@LM - I remember reading an article in Yahoo after our world cup win comparing India to WI-AUS.

Probably an one-off thing.

[P_R]

I named the thread too soon :-(

[ajithfederer]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAdm_Qp9L78&feature=g-all-lik


Waugh vs Harmison - BEST OVER EVER?


P_R have u seen this??

[ajithfederer]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nU-sJpyzXa0&feature=related


Zaheer Khan 19 Wickets vs England 2007 series.mp4

Cook lb w twice.
Bell out to him at-least 3 times.
Off the 19, 3 catches were to Tendulkar.

[wizzy]

Zak's non show against Kiwis is tad disconcerting..never looked threatening even @ seam friendly conditions in Bangalore..was completely out-bowled by Boult..selectors should nudge him to quit t-20s/odies.

[P_R]

Of course, andha StevevA edge is quite prabalam.

[P_R]

So, what is your conclusion? His form was just coincidentally abssent last month? And suddenly it appeared again this month? So, England were just unlucky last month to lose the test series like that? அட போயா..நீரும் உம் புரிதலும்.

SAF overpowered England.இதை நான் எத்தனை தடவை சொன்னா, சொன்னதை acknowledge பண்ணுவீங்க?

ஆக மொத்தம் நான் கேட்ட கேள்விக்கு பதில் கிடையாது. Do you or do not see ANY difference whatsoever between the way Anderson is bowling (I am NOT talking about results, wickets etc...do whatever 'adjustments for format' you want) in ODI vs. the test series. இல்லைன்னு சொல்லுங்க. அப்படியே போயிடறேன்.

Yes, he was listless because SA made him soனு சொல்லுங்க. அதே எழவைத் தான் நானும் சொல்றேன்.

[Plum]

போயிடறேன்.

Yes, he was listless because SA made him soனு

ofcourse, idhai thaane ninga maRuthukittirukkinga? ippO oru mAdhiri oputhukittinga pOla? So, yes, the first challenge he faced with non-compliant batsmen, he failed. Isnt it? Ishant Sharma bowled beautifully against Windies but England kitta dhAn avanAla mudiyala. marubadiyum Windies vandhavunE he becmae world beater.

[P_R]

ofcourse, idhai thaane ninga maRuthukittirukkinga?
Obviously you have not been reading what I am writing about England's Test series loss

So, yes, the first challenge he faced with non-compliant batsmen, he failed.
I am sick and tired with your 'downsizing' EVERY single challenge England has overcome. Thangappa thakkam-nE vachchukkunga.

If that is your opinion, assessment of the the bowler that is Jimmy Anderson (Broad-ai sonnA vERa ungaLukku kaduppu aayirum) then there is nothing at all to discuss. :wave:
Thread-ai poottiravA?

[Plum]

What is your point? South Africa oNNu dhANE patientA veLayAndAnga? mathavana ellaam lacked the innings building skills. When a patient set of batsmen neutralized him, he couldnt bring his best. So, what is your point? He bowled beautifully against India etc? appO Ishantum dhAn Windies kooda pOttAn?

ippO Ashwin will struggle against England - adhukkAga NZ kooda kiNathukuLLa nalLA pOttAnEnnu adhai oru periya vishayamA solla mudiyumA? edhukku sollaNum? Failedna Failed dhAn. Edhukku indha pointai sollaNum in the first place?

[P_R]

The point of mentioning this is because the Anderson on display in ODIs seemed more like the Anderson of yore and so unlike the 'neutralized' wimp who was bowling bland nonsense in the test series. A very simple point that seems to rail you because it seems to suggest 'bail' for some curious reason.

[P_R]

KP names Swann and Anderson as suspects who fed the fake account: http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/content/current/story/581478.html


An ESPNcricinfo investigation also exonerated Broad and suggested that Bailey was the only person responsible.
:lol: avanE sonnAn

First comment

OK, this is stupid. I've backed KP on every other point of his in the saga, but now he's lost my support. He needs to grow up already.
:lol:

[P_R]

I am loving the comments section


Posted by Indus11 on (September 08 2012, 23:26 PM GMT)

Something happened out there in the Abu-Dhabi and Dhabi - when the Paks white washed the Anglo Saxons. A "convolution" of sorts took place - a kind of exchange of characters. I swear it! The Behaviour of the English team talked of above is exactly what the Paks were enamoring themselves with - under the leadership of one Mohammad Yousef - with several of the team members performing a mutiny against him. While the English has been behaving like the Paks of old - the Paks on the other hand appear to be behaving like the English of old. There is cohesion, team spirit and the unavoidable fruits that go along with all that - Winnings ! Convolution - no question about it. Of- course I might be wrong. The difference has been that ECB has not fired everyone - the PCB did. Perhaps there is time.

[wizzy]

so who are the 6 six Eng cricketers who took oath on Bible to undermine/remove Strauss :roll:

[Plum]

Wizzy - That must be the Flinty gang. Flintoff, Harmison, possibly Collingwood, who seems to be the one decent Englishman cricketer around. Flinty wanted power for himself so wanted Flower and Moores out- thoondufied KP. I think Cook might secretly have wanted Flower out (for bringing in Gooch as batting coach) but once Flower got the big job, he settled down since his candidate will get batting coach job anyway.

However, this revelation by KP probably means taking him into the team becomes difficult for Cook. Not the right time to say this, KP. You should have saved this for you autobiography - that way, ippO teamlayum vandhirukkAlAm. Retire AnappuRAm, book ezhudhi kaasu sambARichurkkalAm. muttAL, muttAL :banghead:

idhai ellAM anglo saxon cirkcetrs kitta kathukkaNum

[P_R]

Anderson to release autobiography :lol:
summAvE irukka maattAnuva. Vaaganaththai thitti irukkaanaam. Let's see what he has to say about KP.

[Senareb]

Vaaganaththai thitti irukkaanaam. Let's see what he has to say about KP.

'michael aka mayil' vaaganam...:rotfl:

[littlemaster1982]

Anderson to release autobiography :lol:
summAvE irukka maattAnuva. Vaaganaththai thitti irukkaanaam. Let's see what he has to say about KP.


Appointing Pietersen united the England captaincy across all formats once more, which made sense. Everyone is always excited by a change in captaincy, and it is natural to want to help a new guy out. Little did we know what was to follow.

:think:

[PARAMASHIVAN]

Freddie seems to have taken a new career path! I.e "Heavy weight" boxing. :shock:

[P_R]

:think:
:lol: book pOttu viththuru

[P_R]

Freddie seems to have taken a new career path! I.e "Heavy weight" boxing. :shock:

Flintoff — too gentle to be a true heavyweight champion - Ted Corbett (http://www.thehindu.com/sport/cricket/article3870600.ece)

kaikkozhandhai range-ku solraapla :lol2:

[PARAMASHIVAN]

Flintoff — too gentle to be a true heavyweight champion - Ted Corbett (http://www.thehindu.com/sport/cricket/article3870600.ece)

kaikkozhandhai range-ku solraapla :lol2:

I like Freddie, one of the decent chaps from an Arrogant Team, but ivara ellam boxing pannina , vadivel adi vangittu cup edithukittu pOra gnyabagam thaan varuthu :lol:

[Plum]

Faramu -vaango. Congrats. You have earned one more victory for Britis Sport (USO). unga magic-ku oru aLavE illaiyA? :shock:

[PARAMASHIVAN]

Faramu -vaango. Congrats. You have earned one more victory for Britis Sport (USO). unga magic-ku oru aLavE illaiyA? :shock:

:lol2: ennala koodaa namba mudiyala :shock: :shock:

[selvakumar]

Flintoff - Mr. Nice Guy :lol2: Ask Yuvraj. They would have fought in the ground and that would have been an interesting boxing match. To me, Flintoff always looks like a thug.

[19thmay]

Aaamaama ... A decade back Flintoff was running without shirt in the Indian ground, romba decent thaan!

http://img534.imageshack.us/img534/6628/andrewflintoff21717764c.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/534/andrewflintoff21717764c.jpg/)

Adhukku vera engga Ganguly avaroda weak body-ya kaatnaapla :lol2: pazhi vaangitOmla!

[Dinesh84]

Pietersen signs England contract (http://www.espncricinfo.com/england/content/current/story/585326.html) :lol2:

[P_R]

India not playing spinners in the tour match. Vaaganam is furious. Dileep Premachandran has responded well http://www.wisdenindia.com/cricket-blog/first-class-cricket-panesar-vaughans-views/32107

It will be fun if Yuvraj takes a five-for against England :lol:

KP is back. Not clear what the apology was behind closed doors. Who will leak it and when, remains to be seen.

[P_R]

It will be fun if Yuvraj takes a five-for against England :lol:

Prabhurama, nee oru village vignAni dA!

[Dinesh84]

Prabhurama, nee oru village vignAni dA!

:clap: undiyalOda maraththadiyila ukAnthurunga..

[littlemaster1982]

After becoming No.1 beating India, this is Eng's record.

Pak - 0-3 - Away
SL - 1-1 - Away
WI - 2-0 - Home
SA - 0-2 - Home
Ind - 2-1 - Away
NZ - 0-0 - Away
NZ - 2-0 - Home
Aus - 3-0 - Home
Aus - 0-5 - Away

Excellent record :lol2:

[19thmay]

KP has been sacked, he wont play for England any more!! Whoa!! This is funny.