Topic started by Siby Koodalloor (@ ppp-203-197-9-177.bom.vsnl.net.in) on Thu Aug 17 06:01:15 .
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

Malayalees take a lot of pride in describing their cultural contribution to the country and regard themselves 'highly cultured'.They go gaga on Kathakali and Mohiniyattam. But do they enjoy an exclusively distinct cultural identity from Tamils, Kannadigas and Telegus? Are they right for their exclusive cultural associations?

Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: Mani (@ spider-wi034.proxy.aol.com) on: Tue Aug 13 13:47:14
  
  Thiruvalluvar was of Kerala origin?
  
  
  
• From: :) Punnahai (@ d221-216-99.systems.cogeco.net) on: Wed Aug 14 09:05:38
  
  Mani:
  
  I think you will enjoy this :) According to a book I am reading, Kannacha Ramayanam was written in the 1350s in Malayalam. Given below are the Tamil and malayalam versions of a song in Sundara Kaandam of this book.
  
  AarkaliMeedhuThaavi MudhirnnuLankaPuhunnu Senthaaraar Mahalennum Mennadayaale yambodukandu meelvan
  vehamodennuthullil ninannu venni kalarnna needaar
  Meni kilarnnavanara veeran maruti thaanuzhattal
  
  Translated to Tamil it sounds like this:
  
  Aarkali Meedhu Thaavi muthirndhu
  lankai puhundhu senthaaraar
  mahal ennum mennadaiyalai
  anpodu kandu meelvan
  
  veehamodenra thullil ninaindhu
  vendri kalantha needar
  meni kilanrndha vaanara veeran
  maruti thaanuzhatran
  
  
  Looking at this it seems to me that in the 1300s Malayalam was perhaps just Tamil written in a different alphabet. What do you think?
  
  
  
• From: Mani (@ spider-wc072.proxy.aol.com) on: Mon Aug 19 00:20:37
  
  That was pretty good. Thanks for posting that.
  It is so close, that I almost could not tell the difference!
  Without a doubt, Malayalam and Tamil language are the closest, I don't care what any koppu Malayali says but it being more Sanskrit! That is nonsense! This indeed is full proof, and should shut these people up.
  
  
• From: Skanthavelu Nadarajah (@ edtntnt5-port-117.dial.telus.net) on: Mon Aug 19 06:08:41
  
  Punnahai,
  That was a very interesting post. I wonder what the Malayalam alphabet of that time looked like?
  If possible, can you e-mail me a scanned image of the old Malayalam Alphabets? Thanks
  Jai Karunamayi!
  
  
• From: Raveen (@ h66-59-174-253.gtconnect.net) on: Mon Aug 19 11:26:30
  
  
  Punahai,
  
  These are really the moments that I wish happens all the time in FH. Absolutely great that you did what you did.
  
  But I would still say from a linguistic point of view it would be simplistic to say that Malyalam of 13century is Tamil written in another script.
  
  You can already see many of the diversions already taking place even by then.
  
  iLankai is Lanka (two major changes)
  Puhunthu is Puhunnu (replacement of nasal th with nasal n)
  Anbu is Yambu ( replacement of Aa with YA)
  
  These might look minor in Indic languages where there is a large difference between written form and spoken form but this is what makes new languages if the elites decided to re standardize the spoken languages. That is exactly what happened in Kerala as Centhamil lost its pre imminent position. Languages are like rivers and F=gRammars are like damns. Then hold only a certain amount of changes beyond that the river would flow by. Chera Thamil deviated so much from Centhamil that the gate keepers decided to break the old dam and build a new one further down. It is a continious process.
  
  
• From: Raveen (@ h66-59-174-253.gtconnect.net) on: Mon Aug 19 11:46:00
  
  “Thiruvalluvar was of Kerala origin? “
  
  It is a Kerala myth that I had posted about in the past in which it makes many notables Tamil scholars as brothers of a popular Namboothiri reformer by different caste step mothers. Just try www.namboothiri.com
  
  
• From: :) Punnahai (@ d221-216-99.systems.cogeco.net) on: Mon Aug 19 12:46:32
  
  Raveen:
  yambu is because of ye+a
  
  I am no linguist, but...
  
  puhundhu==>puhunnu cannot be considered a major change because even today in colloquial tamil we see ninru becoming ninnu and other such.
  
  I recently saw the picture (I will try to find it) of a 16th century inscription in a Kerala church. It is written in Tamil.
  
  If we try writing Madras Tamil in another script, 100 years from now it will certainly become a different language :)
  
  
  
  
  
• From: Mani (@ spider-we082.proxy.aol.com) on: Tue Aug 20 00:13:54
  
  Punnahai,
  
  Letters like "va", "sa", "u", and "ja" are the only barely "untouched" letters that remain in Malayalam from Tamil. The letters mentioned have a slight change, well at least two of them; "va" doesn't have the little circle as the Tamil "va" has, and the same thing goes with "sa".
  If you look at other letters in Malayalam like "sha" and "ka", you can tell they used to be written the Tamil way, and have changed a little over time by becoming a bit more "rounder". The Tamil "la" (not La) is even used in Malayalam for making new sounds like lets say you want to write "planet" in Malayalam, the Tamil "la" is added under "pa" to make "pla", so there still is links kept with Malayalam and Tamil scripts.
  As far as script goes, the only difference with Malayalam and Tamil is that there are more letters in Malayalam to give the Sanskrit sounds, and the letters in Tamil have more straight additions.
  I have to admit though, Telugu and Kannada scripts are almost exactly the same, except Kannada alphabets have straight lines on top, and Telugu is kept really curly.
  
  
• From: :) Punnahai (@ d221-216-98.systems.cogeco.net) on: Tue Aug 20 08:37:14
  
  Mani:
  
  Zha also doesn't seem to have changed much. Malayalam zha looks like a Tamil hand written zha.
  
  Do you know what is the earliest stone inscription in Malayalam? Even in 1600s Tamil seems to have been used in churches.
  
  I think major sanskritization of Malayalam took hold perhaps in the 16/1700s. It also amazes me to see that many of the ancient Tamil literary giants came from what is now Kerala. Venad and places like Vilinjam were often fought over by the Chera, Chola, Pandyas.
  
  I know Telugu, although had already developed into a separate language at least by the 6th century or so, went through a period of heavy sanskritization later on. It would be interesting to know when that occurred.
  
  
  
• From: :) Punnahai (@ d221-216-99.systems.cogeco.net) on: Tue Aug 20 08:52:37
  
  Mani:
  
  Please take a look at these Thai names http://www.learningthai.com/names.html and notice the familiar letters :)
  
  
• From: Mani (@ spider-mtc-td071.proxy.aol.com) on: Tue Aug 20 13:28:21
  
  Punnahai,
  
  Sorry, I forgot to mention "zha", the only difference with that is that the Tamil zha starts off straight.
  I have noticed Thai scripts and other scripts in that area are similar to Dravidian style writing, possibly a Dravidian influence to do so?
  
  

Want to post a response?