Topic started by Interested to Know (@ dial0-333.dialin.uic.edu) on Sat Aug 30 04:37:28 .
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

Recently, I was talking to a White friend of mine, formerly a Christian, but recently converted to Hinduism. The man was clearly taken up by his new religion... he said daily pooja, chanting of mantras, and meditation had made a great difference in his life, as compared to his former Catholic existence - priest he said, had tried to molest him once, when he was younger, he did not like the work of the missionaries, and reading the bible did not bring much insight. Anyway, later on he asked me what his new caste was. I could not answer this question. Indians are all having castes, even the Christian ones who try to distance themselves from Hinduism (more proof Christianity is not native to India). Perhaps you have answers to this question?

Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: happyindian (@ bbcache-12.singnet.com.sg) on: Fri Aug 27 23:42:48 EDT 2004
  
  caste does not apply in today's hinduism. today everyone works for money (shudras) or owns businesses (vaishya). shudras wud include soldiers, defense ppl, doctors, priests who charge 4 services, teachers, professors, etc.
  
  
• From: BAB (@ cache-rr03.proxy.aol.com) on: Sat Aug 28 10:48:15 EDT 2004
  
  The Portuguese word cast is the European concept of divide and rule. It helps maintain the status quo of overload on bureaucracies. It is the hiding place of ignorance.
  
  Did you ever hear the expression "If you think education is expensive just try ignorance" India may be a typical example of keeping ignorance alive with its huge management bureaucracies.
  
  
• From: ukchristian (@ 202.174.158.9) on: Sun Aug 29 11:03:30 EDT 2004
  
  Good Question to be answered.I think that the person who asked the question did not like the theory of "Caste." I think the Caste-conscious people should really take some time to answer this big hell of a question and probably time for the to change theselves and try to have atleast 5 senses at least similar to animals ! I think somebody has bowled a Googly and the middle stump is just Flying!!!!!!!!
  
  
• From: super man (@ cache234.156ce.maxonline.com.sg) on: Tue Aug 31 09:33:33 EDT 2004
  
  
  He is a animal. Thats his caste. Only a idiot will want to worship animals
  
  
• From: happyindian (@ bbcache-13.singnet.com.sg) on: Tue Aug 31 12:08:38 EDT 2004
  
  super man, if an idiot sees life in an animal and revers that fact, i don't c y it shd b a problem 2 others who don't agree with him...devotion comes in all forms...and rigidity in few forms that has never ended constructively.
  
  
• From: Lotus-In-Mud (@ 192.30.226.28) on: Tue Aug 31 19:55:28 EDT 2004
  
  >>The Portuguese word cast is the European concept of divide and rule. It helps maintain the status quo of overload on bureaucracies. It is the hiding place of ignorance.
  
  Did you ever hear the expression "If you think education is expensive just try ignorance" India may be a typical example of keeping ignorance alive with its huge management bureaucracies. <<
  
  Great response.
  
  
• From: LOTUS (@ 192.30.226.28) on: Thu Sep 2 12:56:25 EDT 2004
  
  *What caste is a White who converts to Hinduism?*
  
  If you really asking whether a white person will be caste higher by converting to Hinduism, my answer is no. Why? I recently learnt that the "Kohinoor" worn in leading Hindu Bharat from regimes to regimes were taken away and worn by the British Monarks such as Charles and Henry. Thus, they gave themselves the status of a higher caste in their own homelends over all Indians even after they are no longer ruling the Indians, but instead, a Christian state.
  
  We Hindus ought to be proud that the Crown of Hindu Bharat is in fact ruling the British Christian state.
  
  
• From: Ambreesh Misshra (@ delhi-203.200.68-2.vsnl.net.in) on: Fri Sep 3 03:51:32 EDT 2004
  
  I'm constrained to post my message in split-form because the first time I tried sending it, it generated a message that it was way too long.
  
  Please allow me to bring to notice the origin of caste system in Hinduism and its evolution through different periods of this ancient religion before we can comment on the present state of affairs.
  
  I'd like to state upfront that all the religions have their own texts and traditions. The two are almost always at variance with each other. I shall point to a few examples.
  
  
  
• From: Ambreesh Misshra (@ delhi-203.200.68-2.vsnl.net.in) on: Fri Sep 3 03:52:24 EDT 2004
  
  For instance, Islam preaches brotherhood and it was, at the time of its origin, the most progressive - almost revolutionary - in its approach towards women's rights. However, the practice, as in most Islamic societies today, is that there's a genophobic hatred for other religions and undermining of women's rights.
  
  In Christianity, the stress was on peace, non-violence. We know from experience through the imperial conquests of the British, Spaniards, Dutch, French and others through to the two world wars, that perhaps it's a section of the community that's shed most blood in the history of mankind.
  
  
  
• From: Ambreesh Misshra (@ delhi-203.200.68-2.vsnl.net.in) on: Fri Sep 3 03:53:10 EDT 2004
  
  Likewise, in classic Rig Vedic Hinduism (penned over a thousand years before the advent of Christian period), caste was meant to be a mere social classification based on the nature of one's occupation. It could be interchanged from one generation to the next, depending upon the occupation.
  
  Over the centuries, it became a rigid - by birth -identity. It's now a hideous practice that subordinates the lower-caste Hindu majority simply because of parentage.
  
  I suspect there were two reasons. One, the priestly and warrior-ruling classes enjoyed the loaves of their position and didn't want to share it with others. After all, nepotism for progeny is intrinsic human nature.
  
  
  
• From: Ambreesh Misshra (@ delhi-203.200.68-2.vsnl.net.in) on: Fri Sep 3 03:53:54 EDT 2004
  
  The second reason is, according to my guess, racial. It's nod hard to see that most Brahmin (priestly) and Rajput (warrior-ruler) communities are fair-skinned compared to other Hindus.
  
  This is one subject that's not been through the rigours of scholarly scrutiny, I suspect. Perhaps because of its sensitive political nature.
  
  What I mean to say is that when the Hinduism (Sanatan religion) was first taking shape, it was confined to a homogenous religious group of fair-skinned Central Asians (although there's a severe dispute between history scholars as to the original spot where the Aryans - who are the progenitors of the religion - came from).
  
  
  
• From: Ambreesh Misshra (@ delhi-203.200.68-2.vsnl.net.in) on: Fri Sep 3 03:54:42 EDT 2004
  
  Any way, the point is, as it advanced to South and arrived in the Indian sub-continent, progressing Southward, it converted the indigenous populace from their animist beliefs to classical Aryan, Rid Vedic Sanatan Dharma. In the process, the Hinduism also changed in the process. Most of the animist beliefs and Gods in its large pantheon owe their origin to animist beliefs absorbed from the traditions it came across.
  
  The point is, the new-converts at the time of its expansion towards Southern part of the Indian sub-continent, were dark-skinned tropical racial groups classified in numerous categories scientifically - right from negroid to others (This part of anthropological mix is scientifically studied and freely available).
  
  Since the `conquerers' were fair-skinned and kept the `conquered' under subjugation allowing them only menial jobs, caste turned rigid.
  
  
  
• From: Ambreesh Misshra (@ delhi-203.200.68-2.vsnl.net.in) on: Fri Sep 3 03:55:34 EDT 2004
  
  However, my concept of rigidity of caste based on race has several rejoinders. For instance, though some Brahmin (priestly) communities in South India remain fair-skinned because they probably didn't marry outside, there are other Brahmins hard to distinguish from the remaining castes. It only shows inter-marrying or allowance for the indigenous groups into the higher reaches of caste hierarchy. However, this is only conjecture arrived at after lot of reading and thinking. I've never come across any scholarly work on it.
  
  Now to the point about the European convert's religion in Hinduism. I'm afraid caste system is now too rigid to allow even a fair skinned European to become a Brahmin. None would accept him even into the lowest caste. Such is the rigidity although these barriers are breaking down gradually with the advent of modern thought. However, the system widely prevails.
  
  
  
• From: Ambreesh Misshra (@ delhi-203.200.68-2.vsnl.net.in) on: Fri Sep 3 03:56:22 EDT 2004
  
  The present caste rigidity has come about also because of various other reasons and influences. For example, when Jainism (a faith confined to India but setting examples in the business world globally - for instance, they now control the majority of high-end diamond cutting and polishing business in Antwerp) was beginning to threaten Hinduism in ancient India with its pacifist beliefs, propagation of non-violence and vegetarianism, Hinduism adopted accordingly.
  
  It's notable that most Hindu communities that co-exist with large concentrations of Jain religion followers, profess vegetarianism with messianic fervour. Examples are regions of Rajasthan and Gujarat. Whereas many other Hindus who have lived in areas with relatively fewer Jains are game for any kind of meat - red or white.
  
  But I'm digressing from the point here. The thing is, caste system as it exists in India today is vile. It doesn't have a place in modern, human rights-driven, egalitarian and liberal world.
  
  
  
• From: LOTUS (@ 199.243.105.13) on: Fri Sep 3 17:32:05 EDT 2004
  
  Continued:
  
  "kohinoor" defined in "dictionary.com":
  
  \Koh`i*noor"\, Kohnur \Koh`*nur\, n. [Per. koh-i-n?r, lit., mountain of light.] A famous diamond, surrendered to the British crown on the annexation of the Punjab. According to Hindoo legends, it was found in a Golconda mine, and has been the property of various Hindoo and Persian rulers.
  
  
  
• From: nachi (@ dslsouth050.242.247.61.touchtelindia.net) on: Wed Sep 8 03:38:18 EDT 2004
  
  He's of HUMAN CASTE.
  
  
• From: Amused (@ 61.2.236.124) on: Fri Sep 10 10:16:45 EDT 2004
  
  The White person in this topic is a fiction and exists only in the imagination of the chap "Mr.Interested to Know (let us call him MITK)", who started this topic. The chap simply wanted to put accross his view points and put those views into the mouth of the invented the White person. That much is clear.
  If the story is really true, then MITK is a fool if he could not grasp the sarcasm in the question of his white friend. What the White feller was telling is this: A person cannot convert to Hinduism, because he would not know in which caste to put himself. Guru Gowalkar said much the same thing, viz., only a person whose janmabhoomi, karmabhoomi, and punyabhoomi is in India can be a Hindu. Put simply, he is borne into his caste, he has to be. His caste is pre-ordained, a prerequisite of being a Hindu.
  
  
• From: Sandeep (@ inet02.unilever.com) on: Fri Sep 10 11:17:19 EDT 2004
  
  "His caste is pre-ordained, a prerequisite of being a Hindu"
  
  History tells you that unlike Christianity/Islam/Buddhism/Jainism Hinduism was not started by someone as a religion but was a name given to a culture and way of life. It also tells us that Caste system was not originally present in Hinduism.
  
  But as time progressed social classes where created (Brahmins, Kshathriyas, Vysyas and Shudras) based on profession you choose. But slowly these demarcations became stronger and it became difficult for a Vysya boy (Son of a person doing a profession under Vysya category)to take up a profession under Kshathriya category.
  
  This being the case how can we say that caste is pre-ordained, a prerequisite of being a Hindu
  
  

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