Topic started by confused (@ 1cust187.tnt34.dfw9.da.uu.net) on Sun Jul 6 18:50:17 .
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What proof is there that Hindu God's are real or what proof is there that Allah is real?

Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: RW (@ 203.121.47.144) on: Wed Sep 17 20:37:36 EDT 2003
  
  >>Does anybody know, when the first phrase of Bible was written ?
  
  It is believed Job is the oldest book written in the Bible - it was written around 1500 BC.
  
  
• From: alison (@ 1cust156.tnt34.dfw9.da.uu.net) on: Sat Sep 20 17:26:30 EDT 2003
  
  no, Moses wrote the books before that earlier, so I think it is Moses
  
  
• From: Gogiya (@ palo5.pacific.net.sg) on: Sun Sep 21 21:02:24 EDT 2003
  
  Alison,
  
  >>>no, Moses wrote the books before that earlier, so I think it is Moses<<<
  
  Was Moses able to read & write?
  
  Don't think, think, think, it only leads to confuse others.
  
  I tell u the Secret only for you!!!. It written by Manu, krishna & Buddha than only it reveal to Jesus by God!!!
  
  
• From: Gogiya (@ palo5.pacific.net.sg) on: Sun Sep 21 22:39:16 EDT 2003
  
  The prophesies that from the issuing of the decree to rebuild Jerusalem until the time when the Messiah shall be cut off there are appointed Seventy weeks. Seventy weeks are four hundred and ninety days and, with the prophetic day for a year, a directive given us by Ezekeil (iv:6), this becomes four hundred and ninety years. So, from the decree to Christ’s crucifixion, four hundred and ninety years will pass.
  
  Many Bible scholars accepts 457 B.C. as the date when the work of rebuilding Jerusalem actually began. This date would set Christ’s age at 33 years when he was crucified – the traditionally accepted age. But Daniel also prophesied that two thousand and three hundred days would pass before the sanctuary would be cleansed. This prophecy Christ Himself referred to as a guide for serious souls. The two thousand and three hundred days again become years; then, subtracting four hundred and fifty six from 2300 to clear B.C.
  We find that the year 1844 was the time set for the 2nd coming. This year-on the Christian solar calender – also marked the beginning of the Baha’I Era.
  
  Both Daniel and St.John the Divine refer to “a time, times and half a time.”
  Christian scholars remain puzzled by these prophecies, for they cannot change course from traditional theology.
  
  But in the Baha’I Faith, explains that we should take “time” as a year, “times” as a two years, and “half a time” as half a year, or , three and a half years. From the Bible’s reference to flood we know that each month has 30 days, and so a year would be 360 days. Three and a half years, = to 1260 years.
  On the Christian calender we know that nothing of great spiritual sigificance took place 700 years ago. But we also know that a great religious turmoil struck Persia on and after the Declaration of BAB in the Muslim year of 1260.
  
  One Christian sect has arrived at the year 1914 in a complex figuring of the “time, times and a half times.” They accept this date as the return of Christ – but thereby do violence to the other prophecies of place and condition. Several others Chritian sects had their origins in the early 1800’s, based upon Advent expections. One such groups still refers to the years 1844 as “the years of the great disappointment.” Another such group, patterned after early Church organization, relates itself to the “Last Dayes.” Yet in the writings their founder clearly implies that they should not be in existence in the 20th Century!!!
  
  However, rather than to investigate sects, let note that many prophecies are in Biblical books that were labeled “SEALED” by their authors. How can sealed books be understood by human minds??
  
  Should not the prophecies recorded in the Holy Books be taken more seriously?
  Should not the lessons of history such as the dramatic fall of the Rome Empire – serve as a warning and clue for us today??
  
  The answer, of course, rests upon each one of us; but the fate of wrong decisions is shared by us all!!
  
  
• From: RW (@ 203.121.47.144) on: Mon Sep 22 10:38:32 EDT 2003
  
  >>However, rather than to investigate sects, let note that many prophecies are in Biblical books that were labeled “SEALED” by their authors. How can sealed books be understood by human minds??
  
  Gogiya
  
  You are contradicting your own words. If the prophecies are sealed, how then you claim Bahaullah is the fulfilment ???!!!!!. Strange isn't it.
  
  You claim that He is Kalki, Jesus etc etc.
  But contrary to claims he was chased out one country after another and finally died. His claim of immortality, he himself could not meet.
  
  where is the triumph and where is the Kingdom ? If He had fulfilled one prophecy He should fulfill all the prophecy concerning the second coming of Christ.
  
  Let me tell you. My Lord and God will come victoriously! never to be chased out. He will reign as King of Kings and judge the world with iron rod. Every Knee shall bow and Every tounge confess that HE is Lord.
  
  
• From: RW (@ 203.121.47.144) on: Mon Sep 22 10:44:40 EDT 2003
  
  >>Was Moses able to read & write?
  
  This is really funny. Moses was raised as the adopted son of Pharoh's daughter. He was educated in all the wisdom of Egypt of that day. Don't ever doubt his reading and writing please.
  
  Acts 7:22
  22 Moses was educated in all the wisdom of the Egyptians and was powerful in speech and action.
  
  
  
• From: RW (@ 203.121.47.144) on: Mon Sep 22 10:56:21 EDT 2003
  
  Moses was indeed able to read and write:
  
  Exod 24:6-7
  6 And Moses took half of the blood, and put it in basins; and half of the blood he sprinkled on the altar.
  7 And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that Jehovah hath spoken will we do, and be obedient.
  
  Exod 34:28
  28 And he was there with Jehovah forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.
  
  
• From: RW (@ 203.121.47.144) on: Mon Sep 22 11:01:00 EDT 2003
  
  >>no, Moses wrote the books before that earlier, so I think it is Moses
  
  Alison, Bible scholars generally agree that the book of Job is the oldest. The human author is not clear. It could well be Moses himself. But Moses wrote the first 5 books of the Bible. No dispute there.
  
  
• From: alison (@ 1cust84.tnt34.dfw9.da.uu.net) on: Mon Sep 22 16:52:54 EDT 2003
  
  and Job is after the first 5 books of the bible so that means Moses wrote the oldest books and Moses and Job are two different people because they both are two different people who lived in 2 diff. times with 2 diff. stories,
  
  
• From: RW (@ 203.121.47.144) on: Mon Sep 22 20:11:17 EDT 2003
  
  Alison
  
  Order doesn't matter. Probably because of the way the books were grouped, Job comes later. In Bible,the book of Job comes even after Ezra and Nehamiah which were written much later than Job. As I said earlier, it is a general agreement from the scholars that the Book of Job was written earlier.
  
  
  
  
• From: Gogiya (@ palo5.pacific.net.sg) on: Mon Sep 22 21:53:00 EDT 2003
  
  
  >>>Biblical books that were labeled “SEALED” by their authors.<<<
  
  Hi, RW
  Good to have a questions!
  I realy love it.
  Above sentence implies that:
  biblical books were interpreted in different forms and their authors had blotted true meaning of God's words in order to justify their understandings.Thats why we can't come to correct conclusion about appeareance of GOD's Messenger.
  The interpretation of prophecy is notoriously difficult, and on no subject do the opinions of the learned differ more widely. This is not to be wondered at, for, according to the revealed writings themselves, many of the prophecies were given in such a form that they could not be fully understood until the fulfillment came, and even then, only by those who were pure in heart and free from prejudice. Thus at the end of Daniel's visions the seer was told: --
  
  But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased. ... And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things? And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. -- Daniel xii, 4-9.
  If God sealed up the prophecies until the appointed time, and did not fully reveal the interpretation even to the prophets who uttered them, we may expect that none but the appointed Messenger of God will be able to break the seal and disclose the meanings concealed in the casket of the prophetic parables. Reflection on the history of prophecies and their misinterpretation in previous ages and dispensations, combined with the solemn warnings of the prophets themselves, should render us very chary of accepting the speculations of theologians as to the real meaning of these utterances and the manner of their fulfillment. On the other hand, when someone appears who claims to fulfill the prophecies, it is important that we examine his claim with open, unprejudiced minds. Should he be an impostor, the fraud will soon be discovered and no harm will be done, but woe to all who carelessly turn God's Messenger from the door because He comes in an unexpected form or time.
  
  The life and utterances of Baha'u'llah testify that He is the Promised One of all the Holy Books, Who has the power to break the seals of the prophecies and to pour forth the "Sealed choice wine" of the divine mysteries. Let us hasten, then, to hear His explanations and to reexamine in their light the familiar but often mysterious words spoken by the prophets of old.
  
  Manner of Coming
  
  As to the manner of His coming at the end of the age, Christ said: --
  
  And they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet. ... then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats. -- Matt. xxiv, 30-31; xxv, 31-32.
  
  Regarding these and similar passages Baha'u'llah writes in the Book of Iqan: --
  
  ... The term "heaven" denoteth loftiness and exaltation, inasmuch as it is the seat of the revelation of those Manifestations of Holiness, the Day-springs of ancient glory. These ancient Beings, though delivered from the womb of their mother, have in reality descended from the heaven of the will of God. Though they be dwelling on this earth, yet their true habitations are the retreats of glory in the realms above. Whilst walking amongst mortals, they soar in the heaven of the divine presence. Without feet they tread the path of the spirit, and without wings they rise unto the exalted heights of divine unity. With every fleeting breath they cover the immensity of space, and at every moment traverse the kingdoms of the visible and the invisible. ...
  ... By the term "clouds" is meant those things that are contrary to the ways and desires of men. Even as He hath revealed in the verse already quoted: "As oft as an Apostle cometh unto you with that which your souls desire not, ye swell with pride, accusing some of being impostors and slaying others." [Qur'an 2:87.] These "clouds" signify, in one sense, the annulment of laws, the abrogation of former Dispensations, the repeal of rituals and customs current amongst men, the exalting of the illiterate faithful above the learned opposers of the Faith. In another sense, they mean the appearance of that immortal Beauty in the image of mortal man, with such human limitations as eating and drinking, poverty and riches, glory and abasement, sleeping and waking, and such other things as cast doubt in the minds of men, and cause them to turn away. All such veils are symbolically referred to as "clouds."
  
  These are the "clouds" that cause the heavens of the knowledge and understanding of all that dwell on earth to be cloven asunder. Even as He hath revealed: "On that day shall the heaven be cloven by the clouds." [Qur'an 25:25]. Even as the clouds prevent the eyes of men from beholding the sun, so do these things hinder the souls of men from recognizing the light of the divine Luminary. To this beareth witness that which hath proceeded out of the mouth of the unbelievers as revealed in the sacred Book: "And they have said: `What manner of apostle is this? He eateth food, and walketh the streets. Unless an angel be sent down and take part in His warnings, we will not believe.'" [Qur'an 25:7.] Other Prophets, similarly, have been subject to poverty and afflictions, to hunger, and to the ills and chances of this world. As these holy Persons were subject to such needs and wants, the people were, consequently, lost in the wilds of misgivings and doubts, and were afflicted with bewilderment and perplexity. How, they wondered, could such a person be sent down from God, assert His ascendancy over all the peoples and kindreds of the earth, and claim Himself to be the goal of all creation, -- even as He hath said: "But for Thee, I would have not created all that are in heaven and on earth," -- and yet be subject to such trivial things? You must undoubtedly have been informed of the tribulations, the poverty, the ills, and the degradation that have befallen every Prophet of God and His companions. You must have heard how the heads of their followers were sent as presents unto different cities, how grievously they were hindered from that whereunto they were commanded. Each and every one of them fell a prey to the hands of the enemies of His Cause, and had to suffer whatsoever they decreed. ...
  
  ... The All-Glorious hath decreed these very things, that are contrary to the desires of wicked men, to be the touchstone and standard whereby He proveth His servants, that the just may be known from the wicked, and the faithful distinguished from the infidel. ...
  
  And now, concerning His words: "And He shall send His angels. ..." By "angels" is meant those who, reinforced by the power of the spirit, have consumed, with the fire of the love of God, all human traits and limitations, and have clothed themselves with the attributes of the most exalted Beings and of the Cherubim. ...
  
  As the adherents of Jesus have never understood the hidden meaning of these words, and as the signs which they and leaders of their Faith have expected have failed to appear, they therefore refused to acknowledge, even until now, the truth of those Manifestations of Holiness that have since the days of Jesus been made manifest. They have thus deprived themselves of the outpourings of God's holy grace, and of the wonders of His divine utterance. Such is their low estate in this, the Day of Resurrection! They have even failed to perceive that were the signs of the Manifestation of God in every age to appear in the visible realm in accordance with the text of established traditions, none could possibly deny or turn away, not would the blessed be distinguished from the miserable, and the transgressor from the God-fearing.
  
  Judge fairly: Were the prophecies recorded in the Gospel to be literally fulfilled; were Jesus, Son of Mary, accompanied by angels, to descend from the visible heaven upon the clouds; who would dare to disbelieve, who would dare to reject the truth, and wax disdainful? Nay, such consternation would immediately seize all the dwellers of the earth that no soul would feel able to utter a word, much less to reject or accept the truth. -- Kitab-i-Iqan, pp. 67, 71-73, 76, 78-79, 80-81.
  
  According to the above explanation the coming of the Son of Man, in lowly human form, born of woman, poor, uneducated, oppressed and set at naught by the great ones of the earth -- this manner of coming is the very touchstone by which He judges the people of earth and separates them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. Those whose spiritual eyes are opened can see through those clouds and rejoice in the "power and great glory" -- the very glory of God -- which He comes to reveal; the others, whose eyes are still holden by prejudice and error, can see but the dark clouds and continue to grope in gloom, deprived of the blessed sunshine.
  
  Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in. ... But who may abide the day of his coming? And who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' sope. ... For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: ... But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings. -- Mal. iii, 1-2; iv. 1-2.
  
  
  NOTE -- The subject of fulfillment of prophecy is such an extensive one that many volumes would be required for its adequate
  
  exposition. All that can be done within the limits of a single chapter is to indicate the main outlines of the Bahá'í interpretations. The detailed Apocalypses revealed by Daniel and St. John have been left untouched. Readers will find certain chapters of these dealt with in Some Answered Questions. In the Book of Iqan, by Baha'u'llah, Bahá'í Proofs, by Mirza Abu'l-Fadl, and in many of the Tablets of Baha'u'llah and Abdu'l-Baha further explanation of prophecies may be found.
  
  -------------------------------------------
  The word "chased out" not the correct one.
  It should be EXILED.
  --------------------------------------------
  On April 21st 1863,Baha'u'llah proclaimed to the world that "The Revelation which, from time immemorial, have been acclaimed as the purpose and promise of all Prophets of God, and the most cherished Desire of His Messengers, have now .... been revealed unto men." When Baha'u'llah made this wonderful announcement, He was a prisoner at the hands of two powerful monarchs, and He was being exiled to Acre (Akka), the most desolate of lands.
  
  About 46 years before his announcement, Baha'u'llah was born in the house of a distinguished Minister of the Royal court of Iran. When he was 14, already famous in the court for His learning and wisdom. He was 22 years of age his father died. The goverment wished Him to take over the position His father had occupied. They thought this gifted young man would make a very good Minister, but Baha'u'llah had no intention of wasting His time in the management of worldly affairs.
  
  When the BAB declared His mission, Baha'u'llah was 27 years old. He immediately accepted the BAB as the Manifestation of GOD and soon became one of His most powerful and famous followers.
  
  At the time when the goverment and fanatical Mullas persecuted the followers of the BAB, Baha'u'llah was not spared in any way. He was twice imprisoned, and once He was beaten so severely with whips and canes that the soles of His feet started bleeding. NINE years after the BAB's Declaration, Baha'u'llah thrown into a dark dungeon.( There is NO WORDS in any language to discribe about this place) This was a terrible underground room which had no window or other opening except the door through which they entered. In this DUNGEON Baha'u'llah was imprisoned with about 150 murderers, highway robbers and other such criminals.
  
  The chains that were put round His neck were so heavy that He could not lift up His head. Here He spent 4 terrible months of suffering, yet it was in this same DUNGEON that the GLORY of GOD filled His soul.
  
  He writes that one night in a dream He heard the following words vibrating from all sides: "Verily, WE shall render Thee victorious by Thyself and by Thy pen."
  
  Baha'u'llah endured all these hardships for our sake and for the sake of generations to come. He bore chains round His blessed neck in order to free us from the chains and fetters of prejudice, bigotry and enmity.
  
  At LAST, Baha'u'llah and family were deprived of all their ancestral riches and ordered to leave the country. FIRST, they exiled to Baghdad in the bitter cold of winter. His wife and young children had to walk 100 of miles to their destination and the fact that they did not have proper clothing. He could have enjoyed a luxurious life in the court of the KING of Iran. He was prepared to endure any amount of suffering in the path of GOD.
  
  Baghdad:- His fame spread throughtout village, city and everywhere. Many jealous people of His fame.Among one was His own brother Yahya,who was living under Baha'u'llah loving care and guidance.
  
  Yahya thought that,he was respected by the followers of the BAB ( During at this Baha'u'llah not declared His mission yet) he might be accepted as their leader if he should denounce Baha'u'llah.
  Yahya's plotting caused disunity among the followers of the BAB. This made Baha'u'llah very sad. One night without telling anybody, He left His home and went into the ( Sulaymaniyyih) mountains of KURDISTAN. HE spent 2 years of secluded life, giving all his to prayer and meditation. He stayed in a small cave and lived on very little food. But soon, like a moon in a dark night, His light shed over all Kurdistan and everybody heared of the "MAMELESS one".
  His family too heared about the "Nameless One". After his return, the fanatical Mullas and his own brother were very angry. These Mullas kept on complaining until the Goverment of IRAN joined hands with the authorities of the Turkish Empire to remove Baha'u'llah to a more distant place - Istanbul. There the same thing happened by Muslim Caliphs. This time, He was sent to a small town ADRIANOPLE,
  From there, again exiled, but this time to 'AKKA' in the Holy Land, Which was then a special penal colony reserved for murderers, thieves and highway robbers undergoing life imprisonment. It was a terrible place and for the first few days after their arrival even WATER was denied to Baha'u'llah,his family and friends. IN AKKA, He was imprisoned in a lonely cell, even His children were not permitted to see him.
  Yet,it was from AKKA that he sent His famous letters to the most powerful kings and rulers of His day, calling upon them to listen to the message of GOD and obey the Commandments of THE KING OF KINGS. NO ONE but a Manifestation of GOD could dare to address those who had imprisoned Him, as a king addresses his vassals.
  Baha'u'llah raised the banner of universal peace and brotherhood from His prison walls and through the powers of the world combined their forces against Him.
  
  Baha'u'llah is that Great Manifestation of God whose coming all the Manifestations of the past have foretold.......
  
  Pls feel free to see this web site for your further investigation:
  Bahá'í-Library.org
  
  Best Regards
  Gogiya
  
  
• From: RW (@ 203.121.47.144) on: Tue Sep 23 07:54:17 EDT 2003
  
  Gogiya
  
  Where is bahaulla now ? What is he doing ?
  
  
• From: Gogiya (@ palo5.pacific.net.sg) on: Tue Sep 23 11:07:10 EDT 2003
  
  Hi RW,
  
  BAHA'U'LLAH,now no more with us.
  
  Ascension-
  
  Thus simply and serenely did Baha'u'llah pass the evening of His life on earth until, after an attack of fever, He passed away on the 29th of May, 1892, at the age of seventy-five. Among the last Tablets He revealed was His Will and Testament, which He wrote with His own hand and duly signed and sealed. Nine days after His death the seals were broken by His eldest son, in the presence of members of the family and a few friends, and the contents of the short but remarkable document were made known. By this will Abdu'l-Baha was constituted His father's representative and the expounder of His teachings, and the family and relatives of Baha'u'llah and all believers were instructed to turn to Him and obey Him. By this arrangement sectarianism and division were provided against and the unity of the Cause assured.
  -----------------------------------------------
  
  His human personality had been chosen by God to become the Divine Mouthpiece and Pen. It was not of His own will that He had assumed this position of unparalleled difficulty and hardship. As Jesus said: "Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me," so Baha'u'llah said: "Had another exponent or speaker been found, We would not have made Ourself an object of censure, derision and calumnies on the part of the people" (Tablet of Ishraqat). But the divine call was clear and imperative and He obeyed. God's will became His will, and God's pleasure, His pleasure; and with "radiant acquiescence" He declared: -- "Verily I say: Whatever befalleth in the path of God is the beloved of the soul and the desire of the heart. Deadly poison in His path is pure honey, and every tribulation a draught of crystal water." -- Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, p. 17.
  
  
  
  O thou who art waiting, tarry no longer, for He is come. Behold His Tabernacle and His Glory dwelling therein. It is the Ancient Glory, with a new Manifestation. -- BAHA'U'LLAH.
  
  ( This below writings taken from one of the book - Mahatma Gandhi and the Baha'is
  Striving towards a Nonviolent Civilization
  by M.V. Gandhimohan
  )
  Gandhi's Contacts with Bahá'ís:-
  There is no doubt that Gandhi was acquainted with the Bahá'í Faith. Gandhi had personal contact with Bahá'ís. Mr. Mani H. M. Mehta, then Chairman (President) of the Spiritual Assembly of the Bahá'ís of Bombay, met Gandhi and was able to share the Bahá'í teachings with him. (Incidentally, Gandhi asked Mr. Mehta, formerly a Zoroastrian, why he had changed his religion.) On other occasions, Mrs. Shirin Fozdar, a well known Bahá'í, also met Gandhi a number of times. Some American Bahá'ís visiting India were also able to meet Gandhi during his imprisonment in 1942 at Aga Khan Palace, which had been converted into a jail.
  
  MGR - Actor and politician of South India also was acquainted with the Bahá'í Faith.But i still searching for details!!!
  
  
  
  

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