Topic started by Nisala (@ we-24-126-184-212.we.mediaone.net) on Mon Dec 24 15:14:39 .
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

Let's continue our conversation here.

Responses:

• From: ETA (@ we-24-126-184-212.we.mediaone.net) on: Mon Dec 24 15:14:53
  
  Nisala,
  
  >>I didn't see anything about 'cock-worshipping Hindus' on the site but I wouldn't be surprised if he was more anti-Tamil than anti-LTTE, like many of our 'weerayas'. >>
  
  You can go to deja.com and after locating the news groups soc.culture.tamil, soc.culture.sri-lanka, search for the word Umberto Gui. You will find how he hijacked the newsgroups during 1996--1998, by posting 5-10 times on a daily basis, and what kind of slurs he used.
  
  >>I would see nothing different between the likes of him and your 'Dravidian' friends such as EVR who shared similar beliefs.>>
  
  This is off-topic. I haven't said anything about EVR.
  
  >>I think I see your point, but how can democratic institutions be built by members of just one ethnic group? There MUST be participation and representation from all the communities.>>
  
  Minorities did try to participate. But violence, riots and intimidation left them with no choice but to leave the country in large numbers. So if they are to be brought back, or if those minorities in SL are to participate seriously, there need to be fundamental changes in the way the majority looks at this issue.
  
  >>Many Americans even now believe creating the Palestinian Authority was a step forward. Recent events have shown that the Authority is a complete fraud.>>
  
  This was a failure of leadership, corruption, and inherent intractability of the problem. The same things don't apply to all conflicts.
  
  >>Don't the Quebecois want to secede? I always hear from a few people that the French-speakers are "oppressed". >>
  
  The fact is that without autonomy to Quebec, there would have been more problems. Now problems are under control, and Quebecois are increasingly reluctant to separate. Here is a link to to an Editorial (Dec 18th) about Quebec: " Equipped with English"
  http://www.globeandmail.com/servlet/GIS.Servlets.HTMLTemplate?tf=tgam/search/tgam/SearchFullStory.html&cf=tgam/search/tgam/SearchFullStory.cfg&configFileLoc=tgam/config&encoded_keywords=Quebec&option=&start_row=4¤t_row=4&start_row_offset1=&num_rows=1&search_results_start=1
  
  >>I was hoping you wouldn't bring up India. The 1947 partition brought death to thousands and suffering to many more. Federalism has not dissolved separatist aspirations in Assam. Indeed, if TN wasn't enjoying an economic boom, could you honestly tell me that the desire for "Dravida Nadu" would've been dispelled?
  Has federalism stamped out discrimination? India had its own version of 'Black July' in 1984 with the Sikhs. There are Muslims & Christians in India who haven't been given 'homelands'. >>
  
  The fact is, again, that without such Federalism, India would have had even more problems. There would have been many more demands for separation. Despite hiccups, Federalism and secular democracy keep India running. On a per capia basis, all the violence you mention (except for the violence during partition) is still neglible compared to the ethnic strife in SL. First there must be genuine autonomy, then a focus on economic prosperity. Focus on economic prosperity can eventually bring the states closer, and make for a stronger Union. Your argument about TN's economic boom supports that view.
  
  >>"Oh, we've gotten used to it," he tells me. THAT is my image of injustice caused by minorities-turned-majorities through devolution/separation.>>
  This happens not because of separation, but because Pakistan is not wedded to secular democracy.
  
  >>Interesting. Perhaps this calls for a bit of self-analysis on my part. What do your friends think about the nature of society- should Sri Lanka reflect the best ideals of a secular democracy, or should it promote the interests of a single ethnic group in the fashion of many European states and Japan? >>
  
  Of course many of them want to have the primacy of Sinhalese culture and Buddhism continued. They want Tamils to be assimilated. But that won't happen.
  
  >>After '56 he protested Sinhala Only. My question is: Tamil was not recognized as a language either before '56- why no complaints
  about that? >>
  Well, English being equally alien to both communities, but widely studied in all British colonies, they wouldn't have thought of it as a serious problem. Making Sinhala the official language almost overnight deprived Tamils of opportunities in the Govt. sector. Most Tamils had lived inside the North and East and didn't have an opportunity or the need to learn Sinhala.
  I have known of many instances where people couldn't meet serious deadlines, etc., because they received official letters in Sinhala, and had to wait until they could get it read from someone who knew Sinhala.
  
  
  >>However, I have no way of explaining the initiation of violence against FP activists, who in my mind were racist but certainly nonviolent.>>
  
  I don't think FP was racist. They were merely reflecting the prevailing climate of fear in the Tamil community. And Banda certainly fanned the flames by setting thugs on a non-violent campaign of Satyagraha, and then calling the wounds "honorable wounds of war."
  
  >>Solheim marched in LTTE parades back home for crying out loud.>>
  
  I don't know the circumstances under which he participated. If he was an MP, and if his constituents invited him, he might have gone without necessarily agreeing with every view expressed in such parades. Same thing has happened in Canada with some MP's. I wouldn't hold that against them.
  
  
  >>2 things struck me about this quote. One was the word 'tabloid.'>>
  
  "Tabloid" doesn't have the same pejorative sense in countries outside America. The Toronto Sun is a tabloid, feels a need to carry pictures of female and male flesh to attract readers, but is actually a Conservative paper. The ex-editor-in-chief was Barbara Amiel, who later married Billionare Conrad Black, and they founded the National Post, a regular news paper. The National Post carried front page pictures of Julia Roberts' unshaved armpits. Though in my mind that makes the paper's news judgement suspect, Sinhalese love the paper for it's sensational slander of Canadian Tamils.
  
  >>I have a feeling he wrote for an audience- undoubtedly the considerable Tamil population in Norway. >>
  I have heard that the Tamil community in Norway is small--just 5000-10,000, compared to 150,00-200,000 in Canada. So I don't think this is a valid argument.
  
  >>Question: did you read the entire book (History of an Ancient Civilization)? Have you read 'Return to Righteousness', a compilation of Dharmapala's letters? I'll talk more about Dharmapala after hearing your reply. >>
  
  No, I have read only portions of both books.
  
  
• From: Nisala (@ we-24-126-184-212.we.mediaone.net) on: Mon Dec 24 15:54:36
  
  >>I would see nothing different between the likes of him and your 'Dravidian' friends such as EVR who shared similar beliefs.>>
  
  "This is off-topic. I haven't said anything about EVR."
  
  It is not off-topic. You can't complain about Sinhalas deriding Hindu beliefs and ignore others' insults at the same time. That is called hypocrisy.
  
  EVR was to Brahmins as Bandaranaike & Co. were to Tamils. What do you call 84% reservation? The difference is that last time I checked, Brahmins weren't walking around with guns or endorsing those who do. Just look at all the anti-Brahmin and anti-Hindu threads on ForumHub alone and tell me again that Sinhalas are unique in hatred of Hinduism.
  
  "Minorities did try to participate. But violence, riots and intimidation left them with no choice but to leave the country in large numbers."
  
  I hardly call demands for ethnic privileges "participation". In any case, the Muslim minority never made such ridiculous demands and they have been largely untouched until recently. I don't see a coincidence.
  
  "So if they are to be brought back, or if those minorities in SL are to participate seriously, there need to be fundamental changes in the way the majority looks at this issue."
  
  Can you be more specific?
  
  >>Many Americans even now believe creating the Palestinian Authority was a step forward. Recent events have shown that the Authority is a complete fraud.>>
  "This was a failure of leadership, corruption, and inherent intractability of the problem. The same things don't apply to all conflicts."
  
  You don't think 'Eelam' won't have the same problems? Arafat was a class-A terrorist, but he failed as a governor. Just because someone is good at something, doesn't mean he'll succeed at everything. You don't think there's an 'intractability' in SL, whatever you mean?
  
  "The fact is that without autonomy to Quebec, there would have been more problems."
  
  In the last ten years has more autonomy been given to Quebec?
  
  Neat editorial. It didn't mention any 'reforms' on the part of the central govt. towards Quebec. All it discussed was the need to know English to participate in free trade.
  
  "Despite hiccups, Federalism and secular democracy keep India running."
  
  I thought it was military power (domestically and regionally, not internationally).
  
  "On a per capia basis, all the violence you mention (except for the violence during partition) is still neglible compared to the ethnic strife in SL"
  
  I'm not sure if I agree with that. Sri Lanka has almost an equal number of NGOs as the entire country of India. In that country there is a great deal of caste as well as ethnic violence that goes unreported (much more than Sri Lanka).
  
  "First there must be genuine autonomy"
  
  Didn't you suggest autonomy/devolution as a temporary solution (as we all know that it sure as hell isn't a permanent solution)?
  
  I might as well suggest that there must be a 'genuine' attempt on the part of Tamils to disavow racism against Sinhalas/Muslims.
  
  "Of course many of them want to have the primacy of Sinhalese culture and Buddhism continued. They want Tamils to be assimilated"
  
  And they're your friends?! Wow, you sure picked the tough crowd.
  
  As I've said before, assimilation is a normal part of history. Tamils have become Sinhala & Sinhalas have become Tamil. This is why I don't exactly take the 'ethnic identity' of Sinhalas & Tamils very seriously (and another reason why I scoff at the idea of a Tamil homeland). Anyone should choose how to identify themselves based on their individual choices, not some kind of pressure from the state or thugs wielding guns.
  
  "Well, English being equally alien to both communities, but widely studied in all British colonies, they wouldn't have thought of it as a serious problem."
  
  It was NOT widely studied. Upon independence, 4-6% of the population knew English in SL. I hardly believe that the number was significantly higher for Tamils. Obviously the solution would have been to increase that number while making Sinhala & Tamil official languages (keeping English as well). But apparently Bandaranaike and his crowd drew inspiration from Western Europe & Japan and tried to bring about ethnic homogeneity. Then the Eelamists copied Banda by trying to create a separate state for "Tamils Only".
  
  "I don't think FP was racist. They were merely reflecting the prevailing climate of fear in the Tamil community."
  
  I might as well say that Banda and his clowns weren't racist either. They were merely reflecting the climate of fear in the Sinhala community- the fear of being marginalized in a country where they comprised the majority.
  
  Unless of course you subscribe to the theory that Tamils are good and Sinhalas are evil. All violence and acts of barbarism that Tamils have committed are reactions to 'oppression', whereas Sinhalas are naturally and inherently violent. Sinhalas starting a riot where 2 Muslims get killed is unjustifiable whereas the expulsion of all Muslims from Jaffna is a legitimate response to Sinhala oppression.
  
  I do not know whether you believe in that theory. But that same mentality was used to justify slavery, Naziism, and genocide.
  
  >>Solheim marched in LTTE parades back home for crying out loud.>>
  "I don't know the circumstances under which he participated. If he was an MP, and if his constituents invited him, he might have gone without necessarily agreeing with every view expressed in such parades. Same thing has happened in Canada with some MP's. I wouldn't hold that against them."
  "I have heard that the Tamil community in Norway is small--just 5000-10,000, compared to 150,00-200,000 in Canada."
  
  Your two statements contradict each other. In the 1st you imply that there were enough constituents that he had to march in pro-LTTE parades. In your second you imply that the population of such constituents is too small to be politically viable.
  
  "Sinhalese love the paper for it's sensational slander of Canadian Tamils."
  
  As many Tamils are fond of Tamilnet, tamilcanadian.com, hotspring.com etc. for its sensational slander of Sinhalas, no doubt.
  
  
  >>Question: did you read the entire book (History of an Ancient Civilization)? Have you read 'Return to Righteousness', a compilation of Dharmapala's letters? I'll talk more about Dharmapala after hearing your reply. >>
  "No, I have read only portions of both books."
  
  Or more likely, you read the portions quoted by Eelamists. Next time you want to pass judgement on an entire ethnic group based on a single idealogue, at least read the entire manuscripts and get an idea of the context.
  
  

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