Topic started by Urme (@ host217-37-153-164.in-addr.btopenworld.com) on Thu Jan 22 16:00:49 EST 2004.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.
3. Evidence: Fiji:
i indians return to india :-Topic started by raghoober (@ aiw023.konbib.nl) on Tue Jun 17 08:16:28 . All times in EST +10:30 for IST.
NB. Punnahai's posts folowed from her other attacks in the white women thread
· From: Ramanan Pillay (@ proxy3.tpgi.com.au) on: Fri Jul 25 22:22:11 EDT 2003
Fiji Indians and Indians from India are the same ppl , the only difference is that Fiji Indians have lived in Fiji for a long time , i think Fiji Indians have the right to live In India just like All Indians whether they are from India or not !.
· From: Mani (@ cache-dp09.proxy.aol.com) on: Fri Jul 25 23:28:42 EDT 2003
Why don't Trini and Guyanese people return to India then?
· From: BAB (@ cache-mtc-ah06.proxy.aol.com) on: Sat Jul 26 12:31:45 EDT 2003
Seeking permanent residence in India is not a choice second, third and later generations of diaspora Indians have as the laws of India do not recognize them in the same way as expatriates from India who are still citizens of their home land.
The laws of the motherland has to change to encourage the return of diaspora Indians. The mother-land must take some responsibility via its laws for making expatriates feel welcomed in India.
Many Trinis and Guyanese returned to India after their indentureships were completed. Others chose to remain and make the foreign land their home. The Nehru government encouraged all diaspora Indians not to look at India as their homeland when they took up citizenship in foreign lands.
Nothing wrong with the then Nehru policy, but the mother must not see them as bad children for leaving the homeland, looking for opportunities elsewhere.
Most Indians from India treat Indians from Trinidad, Guyana, etc., as lower class people and look down on them. In fact, most Indians treat non-Indians, except the rich, with a kind of contemptuous indifference. That is the general complaint of Americans and diaspora Indians.
· From: Mani (@ cache-mtc-ah06.proxy.aol.com) on: Mon Jul 28 00:16:25 EDT 2003
Difference in culture, and social up-bringing separates Guyanese/Trini from India Indians, because of the narrow-mindedness that the Indians from India display.
· From: higher (@ 192.30.226.29) on: Mon Jul 28 16:22:02 EDT 2003
Mani, it is happening right now on the forum. Somewhere on the forum sometime back, it was written that Tamils like to lick the as#es of white people. I do not know if there is something more to this that accounts for the narrow-mindedness of Indians(some of whom are Tamils) you are referring to. The white man just enjoy these things and there are idiots who encourages it.
· From: Tulip (@ hse-toronto-ppp300078.sympatico.ca) on: Tue Jul 29 16:22:22 EDT 2003
In all fairness I have to say that it is also clear on this forum that Northies don't like Southies.
· From: :) (@ d150-188-97.home.cgocable.net) on: Tue Jul 29 17:27:30 EDT 2003
"It is best to live, be happy, struggle and die with your own group(Trini, Guyanese and Fijians). This is what life should be. Why make life more difficult than it already is.
"
Urmila,
Therefore, my sincere advise to you is, please go away to some Guyanese forum and spread your hatred and paranoia.
· From: Mani (@ cache-rl04.proxy.aol.com) on: Tue Jul 29 21:00:44 EDT 2003
Punnahai,
I think this urmila has issues. Is she Guyanese?
· From: :) (@ d150-188-97.home.cgocable.net) on: Tue Jul 29 22:53:49 EDT 2003
Hi Mani, How are you? Yes, she is Guyanese.
· From: Š¸ó¾§Åø ¿¼Ã¡ƒ¡ (@ edtntnt11-port-99.dial.telus.net) on: Wed Jul 30 01:03:54 EDT 2003
Punnahai,
I know you are probably still mad at what I said to you before on the "slapped" thread. If you are so upset about it, why not you still vent it out on me instead of calling down Urmila! Stop being such an idiot!
· From: Karuvayan (@ cs2417534-176.austin.rr.com) on: Wed Jul 30 04:26:55 EDT 2003
dagnabit you christian missionary punnakku, get lost from this forum. This is a TAMIL HINDU forum. India is a land of Hindus, for hindus and by hindus. The next time you insult a hindu like Urmila, I will attack every thread you are posting in.
· From: BAB (@ cache-rl04.proxy.aol.com) on: Wed Jul 30 07:48:37 EDT 2003
Hindu Unity must first eradicate the Caste identification.
Ahimsa must become a way of life, not a passive form of defense but an active one that prevents the exploitation of all forms of life.
Ahimsa must mean self protection from all forms of abuse including child labor, spouse and children beating, etc.
The transformation of the neighborhoods and environments must become an art form. The places where we clean our bodies and defecate must look like temples.
Pure water must be available to every family in every corner of India so as to improve hygenic conditions for all.
There should be no excuse for uncleanliness when water is available to all.
· From: Š¸ó¾§Åø ¿¼Ã¡ƒ¡ (@ edtntnt3-port-174.dial.telus.net) on: Wed Jul 30 08:59:20 EDT 2003
¸ÚÅ¡Âý,
>>The next time you insult a Hindu like Urmila, I will attack every thread you are posting in.>Urmila is human whether she be a Chinese or Guyanese or any nationality>>
· From: :) (@ d150-188-97.home.cgocable.net) on: Sun Aug 3 11:18:43 EDT 2003
Ramadas,, who is denying Urmila is a humanbeing? All I am saying is that she not post paranoid statements about everyone from Indian men to White women and give Indians as a whole a bad name. While I welcome any positive contributions from her, I once again repeat that she take her insane babble and paranoia about everything from Leeds University to White women to a Guyanese forum where her clan exist. Why pollute an Indian forum, why not pollute forums of her fellow Guyanese. As I said previously elsewhere, Urmila is a Guyanese person, she has expressed opinions that people from Guyana are fair skinned and from North India (now if you didnt know she was Guyanese, you may not suspect her motives, would you?) and that Trinidadians are from South India and dark...
· From: Š¸ó¾§Åø ¿¼Ã¡ƒ¡ (@ edtntnt5-port-218.dial.telus.net) on: Sun Aug 3 11:41:31 EDT 2003
Punnahai,
How the Hell do you know Urmila is Guyanese? Who told you Urmila is Guyanese? I certainly never told anything to you. Please do not evade me. I really am getting sick of your evasiveness towards me as of late. ¦¾Ã¢ÔÁ¡(understand)?
· From: Š¸ó¾§Åø ¿¼Ã¡ƒ¡ (@ edtntnt5-port-218.dial.telus.net) on: Sun Aug 3 11:43:51 EDT 2003
>>I very much support Skan's statement> .. I was relating/discussing what indian men think of hem and why > ...did not fit me but them >I never denied that Guyanese and Trini people don't have south Indian origin >By the way Mani, no Immigration records show that some of these people came from South India, only North India. Why is that so?>Fijians and Guyanese people have similiar history and when ever I go to religious functions, it is always recited by the highly priests that Guyanese people came from North of India.>Is this Hindi mix basically Hindi mixed with words from other languages including Tamil and Telugu?>Urmila is human whether she be a Chinese or Guyanese or any nationality>>
· From: :) (@ d150-188-97.home.cgocable.net) on: Sun Aug 3 11:18:43 EDT 2003
Ramadas,, who is denying Urmila is a humanbeing? All I am saying is that she not post paranoid statements about everyone from Indian men to White women and give Indians as a whole a bad name. While I welcome any positive contributions from her, I once again repeat that she take her insane babble and paranoia about everything from Leeds University to White women to a Guyanese forum where her clan exist. Why pollute an Indian forum, why not pollute forums of her fellow Guyanese. As I said previously elsewhere, Urmila is a Guyanese person, she has expressed opinions that people from Guyana are fair skinned and from North India (now if you didnt know she was Guyanese, you may not suspect her motives, would you?) and that Trinidadians are from South India and dark. Ramadas, does it not bother you that she is abusive of white women in this forum in the name of Indians? Ellen was one woman she chased out of this forum. If you recall her first post, it was about how East Indian men mistreat the women! I am just doing what I can to stop this entire forum from going to the loony bin, that's all.
In fact, you if you went through my entire exchange with Urmila, I did what I can to give her some psychological support when everyone was calling her a nutcase. Nevertheless, there comes a time when I had to respond to her to stop her nonsense in this forum especially when I started reading responses to her posts by pass-through non-Indians, who started forming opinions of Indians based on the great Urmila's crap in this forum.
· From: Š¸ó¾§Åø ¿¼Ã¡ƒ¡ (@ edtntnt5-port-218.dial.telus.net) on: Sun Aug 3 11:41:31 EDT 2003
Punnahai,
How the Hell do you know Urmila is Guyanese? Who told you Urmila is Guyanese? I certainly never told anything to you. Please do not evade me. I really am getting sick of your evasiveness towards me as of late. ¦¾Ã¢ÔÁ¡(understand)?
· From: Š¸ó¾§Åø ¿¼Ã¡ƒ¡ (@ edtntnt5-port-218.dial.telus.net) on: Sun Aug 3 11:43:51 EDT 2003
>>I very much support Skan's statement>dark skin is very beautiful>ignore her statements. you are a smart young fellow that is eager to learn about South Indian culture>Some Guyanese people still have links with Tamil worship<<
Oh?? Please explain more on this one. Thanks!
· From: p (@ 6532201hfc46.tampabay.rr.com) on: Tue Mar 4 00:58:54
I have some Guyanese friends, they still worship Murugan (not as Skanda or Subramanya) but as Tamil Murugan.
· From: Karuvayan (@ cs2417546-174.austin.rr.com) on: Tue Mar 4 03:51:46
Muruga is known as Mudhalvan. He is essentially the Skanda of the Skanda Purana. Skanda and Tamil Murugan are not different from each other.
They are one and the same.
· From: tharsiini (@ cache-mtc-ah06.proxy.aol.com) on: Sun Mar 30 22:39:06
is there any proof that people in Guyana and Trinidad some are really from Tamil Nadu? Majority of them have facial features of North Indians not South Indans and also most of them from what I know have parents or great grandparents who speak Hindi and other north inian languages?
· From: Balakrishnan S Naicker (@ ear-iso.india.hp.com) on: Mon Mar 31 04:25:56
There was a guy whose name is Mahendra Nagamootoo in WI cricket team. He is definitely a South Indian
· From: Alfonse (@ 213-145-174-180.dd.nextgentel.com) on: Mon Mar 31 12:23:49
Thevadiyaal Mavan MMC KarthikPanniDevan, Now that you have conveyed your intention to drag this fight longer, lets continue here! I wanted to stop all this and leave, but the son of a cheap street hooker MMC panni will not let me leave! Well, I am back for good! · From: Alfonse (@ 213-145-174-180.dd.nextgentel.com) on: Mon Mar 31 12:24:17
·
· From: Mani (@ cache-rl04.proxy.aol.com) on: Tue Jul 8 23:07:35 EDT 2003
neel,
And a lot of Guyanese people claim that one of their great grandfathers or grandmothers are Madrasi. And another thing, if you go to many websites regarding Guyana, it says Urdu, Hindi, and TAMIL are languages spoken in Guyana. Not only that, many Guyanese Tamils have given up the Tamil identity long ago because they were afraid to be called "Madrasi", and the ironic thing is that they were originally referred like that by coolie chamars of Bihar! The identity crisis of the West Indies is the same in FIJI! Many people don't want to be referred as Tamils, and speak Hindi, but KAVADI AND THEEMITHI, which are 101% pure Tamil festivals are practiced by ALL INDIANS!
· From: Sridat Rambarran (@ ool-18baf7a4.dyn.optonline.net) on: Tue Jul 15 18:17:19 EDT 2003
I am a Guyanese you guys could ask me questions so it could help you and me understand where we came from.
· From: Sridat Rambarran (@ ool-18baf7a4.dyn.optonline.net) on: Tue Jul 15 18:18:59 EDT 2003
What I could tell You is that 10 % of guyanese is from Madras
· From: Karuvayan (@ cs2417534-176.austin.rr.com) on: Tue Jul 15 19:09:46 EDT 2003
Sridat, read this book called "In Search of the Cradle of Civilization"
http://www.ancientindia.com
· From: Sridat Rambarran (@ ool-18baf7a4.dyn.optonline.net) on: Tue Jul 15 20:50:10 EDT 2003
See website I think ut should be helpful. http://www.saxakali.com/Saxakali-Publications/recastgwa.htm
· From: Karuvayan (@ cs2417534-176.austin.rr.com) on: Tue Jul 15 21:46:13 EDT 2003
//http://www.saxakali.com/Saxakali-Publications/recastgwa.htm//
Dumb website. Not backed by Academic research.
· From: Mani (@ cache-dp09.proxy.aol.com) on: Wed Jul 16 01:27:49 EDT 2003
Sridat,
10%? That cannot be true, I know many Guyanese people, and they tell me they have "Madras" in either their mother's or father's side of the family. Not only that, many have origins from Andhra Pradesh, another South Indian state.
· From: Mike (@ cache-dh01.proxy.aol.com) on: Sat Sep 6 23:50:50
Most Guyanese and Trinny people that I know care very little for their Indian roots and find pride in being Guyanese or Trinny. They will even be offended if called Indian.
· From: Madurai Veeran (@ adsl-66-122-62-149.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net) on: Sun Sep 7 00:47:25 EDT 2003
Mike:
Very nice to hear that. After all, to those people who came as indentured laborers, the 'pride' of being Indian mattered very little. After all mother India could not provide for them. Mother 'Hindu' India, in most cases, did not even think of them humans.
Wait.. Who does mother India represent? Who does mother India provide for? People like those who sought refuge in far away corners of the world, in alien lands and harsh conditions, are THE INDIANs.
When you said those people of Indian extraction find pride being Guyanese or Trinny, could you care to explain why?
· From: Madurai Veeran (@ adsl-66-122-62-149.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net) on: Sun Sep 7 00:48:31 EDT 2003
Sridat Rambarran is surely from Madras.
He is actually Sridar Ramabadran.
· From: Virasawmi (@ 167.206.153.218) on: Wed Sep 10 17:28:39 EDT 2003
Hi guys, I dont think any of you guys know anthing
about the Tamil Culture in Guyana. As far as I am concerned Tamils in Guyana has maintained their Cultural Traditions to this day since their Forefathers left madras over 175 years ago. As a matter of fact a lot of the old traditions and customs have changed a lot in India, in Guyana these traditions has been preserved. Yes there are a lot of Tamilians who converted to christians, look at the state of Kerela. Guyanese who migrated to the USA still carry their old traditions with them. There are "madrasi" temple all over New York.
· From: Deyamira (@ 1cust162.tnt3.ewr3.da.uu.net) on: Thu Sep 18 13:05:48 EDT 2003
Hello to all! I'm from Peru and I just want to say that I was fortunate to visit Guyana and I LOVED it. I was there for two weeks. I love your beautiful people, your culture, food, etc. I will definitely go back.
· From: urme (@ mobileinternet.plus.com) on: Sat Sep 20 07:47:19 EDT 2003
India disturbed over crimes on Guyanese Indians -Joshi
Stabroek News
August 17, 2002
Related Links: Articles on race
Letters Menu
Archival Menu
India has observed with grave concern the recent developments in the country in which a number of heinous crimes have been committed on members of the local Indian community.
In his speech on the occasion of the 55th anniversary of India's Independence on Thursday, India's High Commissioner to Guyana, Dr Prakash V. Joshi said crimes committed on members of the local Indian community have caused "much unease and unhappiness" in India.
Commenting on the current situation in Guyana, Joshi gave the assurance that the government and people of India stood by the people and government of Guyana at this juncture.
The Indian government has also renewed its invitation to President Bharrat Jagdeo to visit India. "We are eagerly looking forward to your visit," which he said would give major impetus to the growth of cooperation between Guyana and India in various fields.
The Indian government, he said, would be willing to play any possible role to ensure maintenance of democratic institutions in Guyana and that all its communities are able to live and work in peace and harmony.
Reviewing activities over the past year, Joshi felt that the sharing of a common understanding and perspective was reflected in the heightened tempo of economic cooperation. Bilateral trade, he said, stood at US$6.3 million against US$2.75 million a few years earlier.
He announced that very soon, India would hand over "a mobile vehicle which will be used to train people in rural areas in various aspects of agro-based industries."
In the cultural milieu, Joshi said, "we continued our efforts to project different facets of India's culture and heritage through special programmes and music, dance, etc, rendered by students and teachers of our cultural centre."
Expressing thanks to the local media, particularly the television channels for excellent cooperation in this area, he said he had little doubt that they contributed in further bringing the peoples of Guyana and India together.
A © page from:
Guyana: Land of Six Peoples
· From: Urme (@ mobileinternet.plus.com) on: Sat Sep 20 08:03:26 EDT 2003
Its is bad enough that Indians in Guyana have to cope with how their are viewed by some of their Indian counterparts in India, but worse is that they are harassed and killed by another race in Guyana.
Here is another story:
"I could be killed in Guyana because I am Indian" - Ryan Shah
By Binoy Thomas
Racism here is normally associated with the Black and White situation, especially in North America where due to historic reasons the Blacks have always been seen to be the victims of this foul attitude. And yet if you ask the Indians of Guyana who their tormentors are they would point to the local Blacks. Strange, but true. For decades now, according to several observers, Black on Indian crimes have gone unpunished. What's worse, according to the activists, they have gone unpublished. The world media has other more pressing stories. This is a small country with a small population ruled by a Marxist oriented government headed by an Indian! "The irony is that it is this Indian government that has failed to take any action to curb the ethnic violence," says Ryan Shah of Guyana Indian Heritage Association (GIHA), a group of people who have banded together to fight the racist violence internally and at the same time bring the world's attention to bear up on events in the tiny South American country.
Shah wrote recently, "It was one year ago, July 2002, that GIHA started to speak against the ethnic violence in Guyana. Following the July 3 atrocities by PNC (the African Guyanese party now in the Opposition) 'protesters' in the streets, a female victim who had been robbed, cuffed, stripped, cursed and molested along with a friend on New Garden street by a gang of African Guyanese men came forward to tell her story on television. That mini-documentary made an impact. For the first time, people in Guyana heard first-hand the horrors of the race hate that exists in Guyana. No newspaper or television station ever reports it. And always significantly absent from the streets when 'protesters' take over to beat up on Indians are the police. No one has ever been caught and arrested for these crimes. Shortly after the documentary was aired, an African Guyanese bandit cut off Anita Singh's long hair to words of race hate, and this further horror of cultural rape was the catalyst that decided our agenda: to fight against all odds - they are formidable - to put an end to these atrocities in Guyana."
"It's the Indian government that tell the community to sit down and take it. 'Bear all you can, do not retaliate', they tell the people," Shah told the Voice. This passive attitude, she says, has not worked and has only emboldened sections of Blacks to be more active in their harassment of Indians.
Guyanese Indians were originally taken there by the British as indentured workers beginning early nineteenth century. The Black community, which were there earlier, by no means native to the place, resented the arrival of the Indians. "There is no difference in their attitude today," says Shah. GIHA has published an exhaustive report on the state of ethnic violence in Guyana titled 'Indians Betrayed'.
When Shah and others speak of the Indian government, they mean the one in Georgetown, Guyana. The Progressive People's Party that draws its electoral support from the majority Indian community is in power currently. The Indians form nearly 50 per cent of the population in Guyana.
Ryan Shah who is currently in Canada drumming up support for the cause of a 'governance change' in Guyana, says she became an activist almost by accident. After having lived abroad for years, she decided to go back in 1997 to lend a helping hand to her father who was 77. It coincided with a major election related riot. What she saw happening there made her determined to fight the menace of Black on Indian violence. "It was not until I went back home that I realized that you could be killed just because you're an Indian. And this has been going on since the sixties," says Shah. And they see the government of President Bharat Jagdeo as a major obstacle to real progress. Shah and others would like to see a 'shared government' in place where both Indians and Blacks have a role to play. "We have an Indian government that is in denial. This denial actually works for them. The Indian government in order to retain power says 'we're a multi-ethnic party'. This violence is in their interest. As long as the Blacks keep beating upon the Indians, the Indians will keep voting for the Indian party."
The GIHA crime report enumerates hundreds of attacks that include, kidnapping, looting, armed robbery, murder and rape of India women. The report asks: "During the daily protests and riots of 1998, and again in 2001 when Indian businesses were targeted and Indian civilians were molested, beaten, robbed, raped by Black youths, Black children, Black men and yes, Black women who handed over their Indian women victims to Black men, where were the Police? Who could believe that with the marauding hordes roaming the streets looking for their victims, the police would somehow manage to make no significant arrests? Not in January 1998, not in June 1999, and not again in 2001! The police either looked on merrily and thereby participated, or turned away and thereby participated."
Guyana's Police and Army are almost exclusively Black. And that, many feel, is the reason why the Indian population have not risen up in more violent ways. In South America, riddled with violent popular movements, Indians in Guyana are an oddity. They have been passive in the face of extreme provocation. But there are increasingly vociferous demands for the need to do something, and soon.
Shah says the Indian community is getting more and more demoralized. "I was talking to a man whose wife was raped by two Black thugs. Even he will tell you what can the government do? They are completely demoralized."
Over the decades, Guyanese Indians have been leaving by the droves for foreign destinations and today; there are an estimated one million of them abroad, mainly concentrated in the New York area and Toronto. There are perhaps as many Indians abroad as those still in Guyana. And if this continued state of siege lasts, then more will get out.
When asked about the possibility of a partition of the country, Ryan Shah, "That has been discussed. But that could only be the very last resort. We want to see a shared government that would protect both communities. Partition can happen only if both parties determine that it's impossible to live together."
You can reach GIHA at giha@futurenetgy.com Telephone 592-223-6385
· From: Parayan (@ 161.34.171.66.subscriber.vzavenue.net) on: Sat Sep 20 18:49:15 EDT 2003
Lot of Guyana and Trinidad people look pure Tamilian/South Indian, except they adopted N. Indian names, I know for a fact a lot of them have Madras background, therefore, they are just like us South Indians.
·
· From: £ (@ proxy3.leeds.ac.uk) on: Sat Sep 20 19:53:19 EDT 2003
To Indians, there, you cannot conqure hate by hate. You have to be creative.
· From: £ (@ proxy3.leeds.ac.uk) on: Sat Sep 20 20:02:23 EDT 2003
The other good thing you can do is to NETWORK. Establish a Network of South American Hindus spread across Guyana, Suriname, Trinidad and Tobago
Use this website
http://www.caribbeanhindu.com/
· From: Nammavar (@ ) on: Sat Nov 8 06:54:46
Read about Tamils in Carribbean countries in
www.intamm.com (You have to download webtamil font to read this page)
http://www.intamm.com/countries/caribbean.htm
Tell your friend about this topic